1 Monday, 10 December 2002
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good afternoon, Madam Registrar. Could you
6 call the case, please?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, can you hear me in a language that you
10 can understand?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Yes,
12 I can hear you and understand you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you. Appearances for the
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Good afternoon, Your Honours, Ann Sutherland,
16 Michael McVicker for the Prosecution, assisted by Denise Gustin, case
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you and good afternoon to you.
19 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours I'm John Ackerman with
21 Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you too. Any preliminaries?
23 Nothing, yes, Mr. Ackerman?
24 MR. ACKERMAN: I -- just for the record I should point out under
25 the heading of equality of arms, the Prosecution has now brought in either
1 the 8th or the 9th lawyer on this case and I would like to welcome
2 Mr. McVicker, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So do we. Welcome. So next witness is
4 7.3 if I remember well.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, Mr. McVicker will be leading this
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, okay. [Microphone not activated] A pseudonym.
8 MR. McVICKER: Yes, Your Honour, this witness.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
10 MR. McVICKER: Yes, granted on October 10th.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry about that. This witness will be referred to
14 as BT30?
15 MR. McVICKER: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's great.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this Tribunal.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Very shortly, you will start with your testimony.
23 Before you proceed, it is required under our rules that you enter a solemn
24 declaration, equivalent to an oath, that in the course of your testimony,
25 you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
1 truth. The text is contained -- the text of the declaration is contained
2 on a piece of paper that the usher is going to hand you now. Please read
3 that text aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with this
4 Tribunal as I explained to you earlier. Please proceed.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: WITNESS BT30
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. A -- very briefly,
10 I know that you have already given evidence in Stakic, in the Stakic case,
11 so very briefly, I will explain to you what's going to happen. You are
12 going to be asked a series of questions by the Prosecutor, by the
13 Prosecution, the person who will be putting questions to you is
14 Mr. McVicker, with whom I suppose you are familiar. And after that, you
15 will be cross-examined by the Defence team for Mr. Brdjanin, who is the
16 accused in this case. I also want to confirm to you that upon your own
17 special request, the Chamber has granted you certain protective measures.
18 You will not be referred to by your name here. You have been given a
19 pseudonym, a number. You are going to be referred to and will remain in
20 the records of this case as BT30, Witness BT30, and in addition, anyone
21 who will be following these proceedings will not be able to see your face.
22 In other words, there is going to be what we refer to as an image
23 distortion. If you put your own monitor on video mode and the usher will
24 help you do that, you will see what I mean. And you will see exactly how
25 others will see you on their monitor screens. Okay? Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McVicker?
3 MR. McVICKER: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Examined by Mr. McVicker.
5 MR. McVICKER: The first thing I would like to do is ask the usher
6 to take this paper to the witness.
7 Q. Madam, I'd like to you look at that piece of paper. Is that your
8 name on that paper?
9 A. It is.
10 MR. McVICKER: I ask the usher to please show that to the Defence
11 counsel and then to the Court.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: That will be entered into the records under seal.
15 Okay? Madam Registrar?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And the exhibit number, please?
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1540, under seal.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that all right with you, 1540?
20 MR. McVICKER: Yes, that's correct, thank you.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So go ahead.
22 MR. McVICKER:
23 Q. Madam, I first want to confirm that you testified in the trial of
24 Dr. Milomir Stakic on July 8th of this year; is that correct?
25 A. It is, yes.
1 Q. I would now like to request that the testimony from that case be
2 entered as a Prosecution exhibit.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Ackerman?
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour I have no objection to that. I had
5 indicated because I'm doing everything at the last minute I was too late
6 but I had indicated to the Prosecutor that I wouldn't even require this
7 witness to be present for cross-examination. It was too late when I did
8 that. And she was already here. So I'm hoping we might be able to
9 shorten up the examination a bit today and finish with her rather
10 quickly. I only have a very brief cross-examination.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate that, Mr. Ackerman, and I also
12 appreciate the fact that her testimony -- previous testimony, is being
13 tendered as a document, as evidence, because that would make things easier
14 and you can perhaps condense your series of questions even further. I
15 mean it's up to you. I won't interfere there.
16 MR. McVICKER: Yes. I -- at the absolute longest, this will be
17 two hours but I expect it to be much shorter than that.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Please don't feel in any way restricted.
19 Take your time. The witness is all yours.
20 MR. McVICKER: Thank you, Your Honour. Although I would first ask
21 if I could please omit the biographical details that in are in that and
22 just get right to the substance.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
24 MR. McVICKER: Thank you.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Please.
1 MR. McVICKER: The first thing I'd like to do is ask the usher
2 to put Exhibit P1127 on the ELMO that's the map of Prijedor and I may need
3 to indicate which area should be put on the ELMO. I should explain to the
4 Court that many -- much of what will be discussed today will concern the
5 area called Carakovo and I would just like to quickly show where that is
6 in relation to the town of Prijedor.
7 Q. Now, ma'am, I've asked the usher here to put the map on this
8 machine. Could you please point for the Judges where the town of Prijedor
9 is, the main town?
10 A. Sorry, I can't see well.
11 Q. I'm sorry, I was told that you would have your glasses. Is it not
12 possible for to you see at all?
13 A. No. I can't.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. I can't see where Prijedor is at all.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, perhaps for the time being, forget the ELMO.
17 Give her the map so that she can place it near. Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour we concede that the map is accurate and
19 we can all see where Prijedor is. So I think -- I don't think --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see if we can --
21 MR. ACKERMAN: I concede that she lived there.
22 MR. McVICKER: I just wanted to show the relationship of the main
23 town to Carakovo.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you see better now? If there is a problem, tell
25 us, and we will proceed --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I really cannot see where
2 Prijedor is.
3 MR. McVICKER: First of all I apologise to the Court I was
4 instructed that the witness was going to have her reading glasses
5 available and I'm very sorry that that is not the case.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem. Let's skip this and just ask her direct
7 question, where in relation to Prijedor did the village of Carakovo is and
8 how far.
9 MR. McVICKER: Yes.
10 Q. Could you please tell the Court how far Carakovo is from the town
11 of Prijedor?
12 A. Carakovo is five kilometres from Prijedor, to Zeger and from my
13 house, nine kilometres exactly is to Zeger.
14 Q. Could you explain for the Court what Zeger is?
15 A. Zeger, it's where you join the road from Carakovo to go to
16 Prijedor, the Sanski Most-Prijedor road. That is what the access to
17 Carakovo is called, Zeger.
18 Q. Okay. Well, I will now start by quickly reviewing and clarifying
19 some of your previous testimony concerning the events in spring, 1992, and
20 for the reference of the Court and Defence counsel, I'm going to be
21 starting around page 5719. Now, Witness, in the Stakic trial, you
22 testified that someone or sometime in May, 1992, you called the Celpak
23 factory looking for your brother; is that correct?
24 A. It is.
25 Q. You also stated that you only talked to a Serb man who said your
1 brother was not around; is that correct?
2 A. It is.
3 Q. And he stated that no one from Carakovo was there?
4 A. That's right. He said there was nobody from Carakovo there.
5 Q. Later on, did you learn why there was no one from Carakovo still
6 around at Celpak?
7 A. Yes, I did learn that. After I returned to Carakovo, yes.
8 Q. What did you learn in terms of why no one was around?
9 A. People of Muslim ethnicity said that when they had come to work,
10 they were met there by Serb with a rifle and told them to go back, saying,
11 "You will not work here any more." So they went back home and did not go
12 back to work again.
13 Q. I now go to 5721 in the transcript. Madam, in the Stakic case,
14 you described the situation where you needed to go into Prijedor but you
15 could not go down the Sanski Most-Prijedor road, correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Instead you went through Gomionica?
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 Q. Was there a checkpoint at Gomionica?
20 A. That's right a checkpoint through which we had to pass to go into
21 town, Prijedor.
22 Q. How many people were guarding that checkpoint?
23 A. There were two men, two Serbs, in uniforms, and below them one
24 could see more men, but they were not at the checkpoint itself. It was
25 those two men who let people through.
1 Q. In your Stakic testimony, you also described seeing a checkpoint
2 at Tukovi, and had a tank with its barrel pointed towards Hambarine and
3 Carakovo; is that correct?
4 A. It is.
5 Q. Could you -- do you recall how many individuals were standing at
6 that checkpoint?
7 A. We were walking and once again there were two men at that
8 checkpoint but below the checkpoint itself, from behind the tank, and the
9 tank was a bit to the side, and camouflaged with leaves and pointing at
10 Carakovo and there were more men so it was these two who were letting us
11 through and those others were just standing over there.
12 Q. I now move ahead to 5723 to 5724. Ma'am, in the Stakic case, you
13 said that after the takeover, you heard on Radio Prijedor that Mirza
14 Mujadzic and Hilmija Hopovac must surrender; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. Did Radio Prijedor mention anything about what would happen to any
17 person with the last names Mujadzic or Hopovac?
18 A. Radio Prijedor did not say what would happen to them but people
19 who lived in Prijedor and therefore could hear it from Serbs, they heard
20 if Mirza Mujadzic and Hilmija Hopovac fail to report, they would fare bad.
21 Nothing good would happen to them. They would be taken to the camp and
22 things like that.
23 Q. Did you know the brother of Hilmija Hopovac?
24 A. I didn't know him all that well because they came from another
25 village, from Zecovi, but I saw when they captured him in Ljubija and
1 brought him dead between Carakovo and Hambarine, that is where they left
2 his dead body, that is when I saw him, dead.
3 Q. When did you see Hilmija Hopovac's brother's body?
4 A. I think it was early June. I'm not quite sure but it was before
5 the cleansing of Carakovo, they killed him before that. After those
6 announcements that his brother should surrender down there.
7 Q. I move to 5725. In the Stakic case, you told the Chamber that in
8 June, 1992, you saw Serb soldiers in camouflage uniforms carrying
9 automatic rifles coming into Carakovo; is that correct?
10 A. It is, yes.
11 Q. You also stated that those soldiers would be looking for people.
12 Could you tell the Court which people the soldiers were looking for?
13 A. They were looking for our men, for Muslims, that they should
14 apparently join the reserves, that they had to be taken somewhere. Then
15 they looted. Some who used to be with the former army, they were being
16 taken to camps. We heard that they were in camps.
17 Q. You just mentioned that soldiers looted and I will note that in
18 your testimony previously, you said they confiscated fuel, cars and
19 animals, correct?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. Did the Serb soldiers ever tell you why they were doing that,
22 taking those goods?
23 A. They were saying that their troops needed it, the fuel and
24 vehicles, tractors.
25 Q. Move ahead to 5725 to 5727, still in June, 1992. Ma'am, in your
1 previous testimony, you said that in June, 1992, women, children, old
2 people and sick people fled from the Hambarine to Carakovo; is that
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. You also testified that the people from Hambarine told you that
6 the men there were arrested and taken away to camps; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. Now, who told you this information?
9 A. Women who came to see my cousin, Asim. There were several of
10 them. I can't remember their names but I know them. They told me that.
11 Q. Now I want to ask a few questions about the commune leadership in
12 Carakovo. Did you have leaders in Carakovo around July, 1992?
13 A. Yes. We did. I remember a man by the surname of Music. I cannot
14 remember any other surnames but they were at the local commune.
15 Q. How many altogether, would you say?
16 A. I know that three of them were at the local commune.
17 Q. Did they to your knowledge ever go and meet with Serbian
19 A. Yes. I know that they did.
20 Q. Can you tell me when this meeting took place, approximately?
21 A. No. I cannot remember exactly when but I remember when they came
22 back from the meeting, they told us that they had talked to them. They
23 mentioned some kind of loyalty but that they couldn't agree on anything
24 else except that we had to put up white sheets, white flags, on our
25 houses, which is what we did. All Muslim houses, all Muslim villages had
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 to do that, white flags were put up even on mosques.
2 Q. I know you can't remember an exact date but can you even just
3 indicate a month that this meeting might have occurred?
4 A. I think it was towards the end of June that these meetings were
5 being held.
6 Q. I'll now move ahead to the events in Carakovo beginning on the
7 23rd of July and this includes testimony from 5727 to 5729. Madam, you
8 stated previously in the Stakic case that your neighbour Adem Hopovac told
9 you that he heard tanks coming towards Carakovo on 23rd July, 1992, around
10 9.00 in the morning. Is that accurate?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You proceeded to describe how you and several others hid in the
13 corn field for much of the day as you watched Serb tanks and soldiers
14 enter Carakovo, correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. You then stated that you heard shooting and the screams of women
17 and children, and that you saw houses on fire, is that accurate?
18 A. Yes, yes, correct.
19 Q. Could you see what the soldiers were wearing?
20 A. I could see them from a distance, when I started to run, from the
21 corn field towards my house, there was a soldier with a rifle in his
22 hand. He wore a camouflage uniform. I couldn't see others from the corn
24 Q. You then testified that you came out of the corn field sometime
25 after 5.00 in the afternoon on the 23rd; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You then said, in the Stakic case, that you saw Serb soldiers had
3 removed valuables such as washing machines and VCR's from Adem Hopovac's
4 house and also his son's house; is that correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. You then indicated that in that same vicinity or same area, you
7 saw the wives of Jasmin Sijacic and Husein Sijacic, who told you -- the
8 wives told you that the Serb soldiers had killed their husbands. Is that
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. Would you please tell the Court the ethnicity of Jasmin Sijacic
12 and Husein Sijacic?
13 A. They were both of Muslim ethnicity.
14 Q. I'm now on to 5730 of the 23rd July attack. Madam in your Stakic
15 testimony, you stated that after seeing the wives of the two men just
16 discussed, you saw other men, women and children, leaving on buses; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes, it's correct.
19 Q. Were these men, women and children getting on those buses of their
20 own free will?
21 A. No. They were not. They were escorted by Serb soldiers with
22 weapons and pushed into the buses by force.
23 Q. Now continuing on page 5730 and pages 5732 to 5734. In the next
24 part of your Stakic testimony, ma'am, you described seeing the bodies of
25 55 year old Rubija Redzic, 52 year old Fehim Karupovic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And 60 year old Adem Hopovac on 23rd July; is that correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And you described in significant detail the injuries that
5 indicated that those three people had been killed by gunshot or other
6 violent methods; is that correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. When you saw the bodies of those three people, were they wearing
9 any sorts of uniform?
10 A. The dead people?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. No, no. They were dressed normally.
13 Q. And did those three bodies, did any of them have weapons next to
15 A. No. I never saw that.
16 Q. I'm moving ahead to pages 5734 to 5738. In the Stakic case, you
17 said that on the 23rd of July, you accompanied Adem Hopovac's son to see
18 his mother in the village of Zecovi to tell her friend that Adem Hopovac
19 had been killed; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, correct.
21 Q. You stated that afterwards, you started returning to Carakovo and
22 you passed by an area known as Bare or "swamp;" is that accurate?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Where is the Bare in relation to Carakovo?
25 A. Between the village of Zecovi and Carakovo. There is only Bare
1 and a small creek in between.
2 Q. Did you see anything in the bare when you returned from Zecovi?
3 A. We came across eight bodies, eight dead bodies. Adem Hopovac's
4 son -- including Adem Hopovac's son whom I couldn't recognise
5 immediately. I went home and I told my brothers there is a lot of dead
6 people lying in the area of Bare. I don't know who they are. So we went
7 back to Bare. My brothers and I, we recognised Asim Redzic, Huse Hopovac,
8 Suad amongst them. And I don't remember the name, Fadil Malovcic, his
10 Q. That's all right. In the Stakic case, you identified those people
11 that you and your brother saw.
12 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.
13 Q. In the Stakic case, you said that you saw 60 year old Asim Redzic
14 as one of those bodies, is that true?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And you continued by saying that he had multiple bullet wounds in
17 his chest; is that correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. When you saw the bodies of those people, were they wearing
21 A. No. They were not. They were wearing civilian uniforms.
22 Q. When you saw the bodies of those people, did any of them have
24 A. No, never.
25 Q. You also testified in Stakic that Husein Malovcic later told
1 you that Serb soldiers had taken those people who you found in the Bare
2 out to the forest to beat them before forcing them to walk to the swamp.
3 Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, yes, it is.
5 Q. Finally, can you please tell the Court what the ethnicity is of
6 the people you saw in the Bare?
7 A. They were all Muslims.
8 Q. Still on the 23rd of July, was there a mosque in Carakovo before
9 the 23rd of July?
10 A. Yes. There was a mosque. But in the end, they destroyed it.
11 Q. Who is "they"?
12 A. Well, Serbs, the Serb soldiers.
13 Q. Do you know on what date they destroyed it?
14 A. On the 23rd, and they killed 17 people outside the mosque,
15 including the hodza and they demolished the minaret.
16 Q. Did Serb soldiers continue to stay in Carakovo the next day, the
17 24th of July?
18 A. Yes, they did.
19 Q. What did Serb soldiers do on that day?
20 A. On that day, on the 23rd, they just killed people and took people
22 Q. I'm sorry, that translated the 23rd. Did you intend to say the
24 A. Yeah. They also looted on the 24th and the 25th. Every day, that
25 is at least what I saw, until I left. They remained in our village. I
1 left the village on the 28th with my family and my children, not only
2 myself but 300 other people, all of us who had gathered in front of the
3 community centre, left from there.
4 Q. We'll come back to that in a minute. I'm now up to page 3739
5 [sic] to 3740 [sic], the 25th of July. In the Stakic case, you described
6 how on the 25th of July, Serb soldiers came to your sister's house and
7 took a tractor, money and gold; is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Did you see Serb soldiers take other valuables from other houses?
10 A. Yes. They took things from other houses as well.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour page 16, line 23.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: The pages should be 5739 to 5740, not three.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right, Mr. Ackerman, thank you.
16 MR. McVICKER: Thank you.
17 Q. I'm now up to page 5740 to 5742. In your previous testimony, you
18 described how on the 25th of July, you took Besim Music to the hospital;
19 is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. You then explained that you had to take him to the hospital
22 because of the severe beating and shooting that had been inflicted by Serb
23 soldiers two days before. Is that accurate?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. You also described that around the same time, a woman neighbour
1 told you of the killing of Besim Music's wife Edina and Ramiz Rekic; is
2 that correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Could you please tell the Court the name of the woman neighbour
5 who told you this?
6 A. Rekic, Malka. Malka Rekic. She told me that they had taken away
7 her son and Badema. She managed to bury her son but Badema's body
8 remained unburied.
9 Q. You also testified that you saw the bodies of Ermin Sijercic and
10 Huse Salihovic, who were cut up across their chest, had disfigured faces,
11 and bullet-riddled faces; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. When did they receive those injuries?
14 A. On the 23rd, it was on the 24th that Ermin Sijercic's father found
15 them in the valley and took their bodies to the cemetery and buried them.
16 Q. I'd like to request private session for four questions, please?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session, Madam
18 Registrar, please.
19 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 MR. McVICKER: Thank you.
13 Q. I'm up to pages 5743 to 5746. Ma'am, in the previous trial you
14 said that the -- after the attack on Carakovo on the 25th of July, there
15 were people from Hambarine and Zecovi taking refuge at your house; is that
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Approximately how many people were staying around your house?
19 A. About 100 women, children, and elderly people. They were all in
20 my house.
21 Q. You went on to describe that people began sleeping in the woods
22 because people feared that Serb soldiers would come into the house and
23 kill them; is that correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. You then explained on -- that on the 28th of July, you went into
1 the centre of Carakovo to speak to someone about the situation with all
2 the people at your house; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. In the Stakic case, you said that you approached a colleague of
5 your brother's from Celpak is that correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. What was the ethnicity of your brother's colleague?
8 A. He was a Serb.
9 Q. You described your brother's colleague as being in a uniform and
10 carrying a rifle, correct?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. After explaining the -- in the Stakic case, you testified that
13 after explaining the situation, to this soldier, the soldier told you he
14 could only guarantee that all the people could stay in your house until
15 the Serbian army arrived a few days later?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. Did the soldier say anything else to you?
18 A. He said that I should go back home, take a piece of white cloth,
19 and that we and the people in my house should surrender that whoever
20 wanted to surrender should come to the community centre, that something
21 had to be done and he didn't say anything else.
22 Q. So you returned -- in the Stakic case you testified that you
23 returned home and arranged for people in your house and some of your
24 neighbours to surrender to Serb soldiers at the Dom in the centre of
1 A. Yes. I went back home and I told the people who were staying at
2 my house, "I'm leaving, I'm going to surrender. Those who wish to go can
3 go but I cannot impose my decision to anyone." So some of them came with
4 me and we went to the community centre.
5 Q. In the Stakic case you described that the women, children and
6 elderly people detained at the Dom were verbally abused by Serb soldiers
7 and denied food and water. Is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. So could you please tell the Court how many people were at the Dom
10 at the time you were there?
11 A. There were many of us. I couldn't tell you the exact number but
12 it must have been between 200 and 300 of people, women, children and
13 elderly, because people came from Hambarine, Zecovi, from all over the
14 place. There were many of us there.
15 Q. Moving ahead to pages 5746 to 5748. And I notify the Court and
16 Defence counsel that I don't anticipate more than 20 more minutes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
18 MR. McVICKER:
19 Q. Madam, you testified that the people being detained in the Dom
20 including you, were then taken to Zeger bridge, is that accurate?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. And that was on the 28th of July, correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. You added that there were five AutoTransport Prijedor buses
25 waiting there; is that correct?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. You then described that you saw at Zeger bridge a group of young
3 Muslim men, who were stripped to their waist and who had their hands
4 behind their back; is that right?
5 A. Yes, yes, it is.
6 Q. How many young Muslim men were there?
7 A. There were many of them. I recognised only [redacted]
8 [redacted]. I couldn't recognise anyone else because there was a huge
9 crowd of people there. The buses had arrived in the meantime and we were
10 pushed into the buses. I boarded the last bus and this group of men
11 remained on the bridge waiting on the left side of the road with their
12 hands behind their backs, stripped to the waist, and there was a pile of
13 clothes and identity cards there as well.
14 MR. McVICKER: Could we go into private session for five
15 questions, please.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session, Madam Registrar,
18 [Private session]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
18 MR. McVICKER:
19 Q. Madam, you stated in your Stakic testimony that at Zeger bridge,
20 you saw a Serb soldier in a camouflage uniform, Drago Tintar who stopped
21 Hasib Huseinbegovic from getting on the bus; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. You then testified that you saw Drago Tintar take Hasib a few
24 metres away and shoot him with a pistol; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. How old was Hasib Huseinbegovic at that time?
2 A. 60ish.
3 Q. And what was his ethnicity?
4 A. Muslim.
5 Q. I'm now on to pages 5749 to 5750, the last two pages of the Stakic
6 testimony. Madam, you described in the Stakic case how those buses went
7 to Trnopolje where you spent the night; is that correct?
8 A. It is.
9 Q. You then stated that people there had to pay for bread and that
10 some people had to sleep outdoors; is that correct?
11 A. It is.
12 Q. Did all the people who had paid for bread receive bread?
13 A. Oh, yes. They paid but they didn't get any bread. Everybody paid
14 for it. I and everybody else. Because we were hungry so we paid but we
15 didn't get it.
16 Q. You testified that on the next day, the 29th of July, many of you
17 were put into trucks covered with ground sheets and driven from Trnopolje;
18 is that right?
19 A. From Trnopolje we were taken towards Travnik on the 29th. We were
20 in Trnopolje then trucks came and two buses, and we were put some on the
21 trucks and some on the buses, and we were taken towards Travnik but we
22 didn't know where we were going but then we turned up in Travnik late in
23 the evening on the 29th.
24 Q. First, do you recall who was driving those trucks and buses?
25 A. Of Serb ethnicity in uniforms, drivers. They were. And next to
1 them would be a man or two next to -- next to the drivers. They were
3 Q. In the Stakic case you described that there were soldiers asking
4 for money and gold on this trip; is that correct?
5 A. It is.
6 Q. And if a parent didn't have any money or gold for a soldier, the
7 soldier would slap the parent's child or hold a bayonet up over the
8 child's head; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. You testified that you then arrived at Vlasic Mountain around
11 sunset and were forced to walk to Travnik in the dark; is that right?
12 A. That is right, yes.
13 Q. I have one question about your time at Travnik. Did anyone there
14 tell you that they had to sign any documents requiring them to give their
15 property over to the Serb authorities?
16 A. Yes. That is correct. My neighbour who had -- he was my
17 neighbour earlier but then he bought some land in Puharska and built a
18 house there, he had to transfer all his property to a Serb so that he
19 would let him and his wife and his two sons leave and go to Travnik.
20 MR. McVICKER: One moment, Your Honour. The Prosecution has no
21 further questions at this time.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Mr. Ackerman?
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour could we take a short break now, maybe
24 20 minutes or something, and start after that.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Assuming that we are not to expect a longish
3 cross-examination, do you have the next witness present here in the
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: No. The witness is here but is not ready to
6 testify until tomorrow, Your Honour. He's presently reviewing his tapes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I just wanted to know. How much time do you
8 require, Mr. Ackerman? 20 minutes, 25 minutes?
9 MR. ACKERMAN: I think no more than that, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll break for 25 minutes, thank you.
11 --- Recess taken at 3.21 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 3.53 p.m.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Can the second microphone be switched on, the
16 witness's second microphone? Will you please switch it on?
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:
18 Q. Good afternoon.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. My name is John Ackerman. I'm the lawyer for Mr. Brdjanin in this
21 case. You don't know Mr. Brdjanin, do you?
22 A. I don't.
23 Q. I'm going to try to go fairly rapidly through the questions I want
24 to ask you and the danger is that I might get you confused, and if you get
25 confused at all, please let me know and I'll get a little more detailed in
1 my question. Right after the takeover of the town of Prijedor, and I'm
2 referring for a while here to your -- to some extent to your statement
3 that you gave to the Prosecutor, and I know that you haven't got your
4 reading glasses with you so we'll rely on the Prosecutor to keep me honest
5 about that. You said that after these -- after that you saw checkpoints
6 and you noticed at those checkpoints armed Serb civilians in camouflage
7 uniforms. And then a little later, you say, in June of 1992, you saw Serb
8 soldiers and then later, in your village, you saw Serb civilians in
9 camouflage uniforms. It's the case, isn't it, that you really don't know
10 what organisation, if any, that these people belonged to, if it was some
11 military organisation, a paramilitary organisation, or if they were just
12 volunteers or what they were, do you?
13 A. No. I don't really know.
14 Q. In fact, in your Stakic testimony -- did that get translated?
15 Okay. Yes. In your Stakic testimony, ma'am, at page 5740, you said about
16 one group that when asked if you knew who these people were, I think you
17 said they were all wearing uniforms, soldiers, civilians, you couldn't
18 tell because they all wore the same uniform. And that's true, isn't it?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. On page 4 of your statement, and also in your Stakic testimony,
21 and I think we are talking about the 24th of May -- of July -- maybe it's
22 the 23rd, yeah, it was the 23rd of July, when Carakovo was attacked, you
23 said that 5.000 Serb soldiers were involved in that attack.
24 A. Yes, that's true.
25 Q. That was something you heard several days after you had left the
1 area from women in Travnik who weren't there and had never been there,
3 A. Women who had come -- who had followed us in Travnik but they were
4 originally from Sanski Most. They told me that they had heard from men in
5 Serb uniforms who laughed and they said, "Well we've left the village of
6 Carakovo without a single incident and yet we were 5.000 of us." That is
7 that none -- that they had absolutely no casualties in the village of
9 Q. But you didn't see yourself anywhere near 5.000 soldiers in that
10 village that day, did you?
11 A. Oh, there were heaps of them. I didn't count them but they were
12 all over. They seemed to be chasing a beast or something. They were
13 tanks and armoured vehicles and those men walking behind them with rifles,
14 behind tanks and armoured vehicles. I couldn't really see how many of
15 them there were because that was impossible.
16 Q. What was the population of your village? How many people lived
18 A. 900 houses there were in Carakovo, and in -- and there were at
19 least four persons in every house. I can't give you the exact number but
20 every household had at least four persons. We were quite numerous.
21 Q. All of these people that you saw in that village on that day, you
22 don't have any idea who they were, do you?
23 A. They were in uniform so -- of Serb origin, naturally.
24 Q. But you have no idea what organisation they were from?
25 A. That I do not know.
1 Q. You don't know where they came from?
2 A. From all over. They broke into Carakovo and Zecovi from all
3 four sides, and from the Sana from Sanski Most, from Hambarine, from
4 Zecovi, from Zeger down there. It was surrounded from all sides. You
5 didn't really know which side they came from first.
6 Q. But when I say you don't know where they came from, what I mean is
7 you don't know where their homes were, where they came from before they
8 came to your village, where they lived, where they were stationed if they
9 were troops, you just don't know, do you?
10 A. They were in Hambarine.
11 Q. You know that they were men in uniform wearing masks over their
12 faces, because that's what you observed, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And I assume you also know that ordinary military formations don't
15 wear masks over their faces, don't you?
16 A. Oh, dear, I can't explain that. That day they had masks and they
17 were without masks, anything, but they had those many-coloured clothes.
18 They were all wearing many-coloured uniforms and they were all armed.
19 Q. On page 5 of the statement you gave to the Prosecutor, you said,
20 "In the evening of 27 July, 1992," we better go in private session, Your
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, let's go into private session,
24 [Private session]
13 Page 12562 – redacted – private session
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
7 MR. ACKERMAN:
8 Q. You said in the same paragraph that you heard that that same
9 night, 27 July, the Serbs killed 27 people in Zecovi?
10 A. Yes, yes, that's right.
11 Q. You didn't see that either, did you?
12 A. I saw children, I saw two children who survived when I was taking
13 Besim to the hospital. Those children arrived there and they told us that
14 it was the dead ones but I did talk to the children and the children said
15 that all those people were dead.
16 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was you didn't see the
17 people who killed people at Zecovi if that happened, did you?
18 A. No, I didn't.
19 Q. Page 6 of your statement, you spoke about the buses that you got
20 on that took you to Trnopolje. What you said about those buses is that
21 they were driven by Serbs in uniform. How do you know they were Serbs
22 that were driving the buses?
23 A. Why, no Muslim held any job at that time. There were no Muslim
24 drivers or anything, only Serbs, and Serb uniforms, I mean those patterned
1 Q. Okay. So that was not something you knew but something you just
2 sort of concluded, that they must have been Serbs that were driving?
3 A. Well, yes, and they were Serbs.
4 Q. Did you recognise any of them?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Some of the drivers?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you tell us the names of somebody who was driving those
10 A. I don't know their names. I just know them like this.
11 Q. Where had you seen them before?
12 A. Around Prijedor, in the village of Carakovo, when they came to
13 visit colleagues.
14 Q. If you don't know their names, how do you know that they were
16 A. Why? Because I know them. They drove those buses.
17 Q. But you can't tell that somebody is a Serb just by looking at
18 them, can you?
19 A. No, but I know him.
20 Q. But you don't know his name?
21 A. That I do not know, but I know that he is a Serb.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move, Mr. Ackerman. I think that that's --
23 that's enough on this point.
24 MR. ACKERMAN:
25 Q. When you got to Trnopolje, what time of the day did you arrive at
2 A. We arrived in late afternoon, could have been around 5.00, perhaps
3 when the buses brought us there.
4 Q. And what time did you leave there the next day?
5 A. Late afternoon again.
6 Q. About the same time?
7 A. Well, thereabouts, yes, it was already getting dark when we
8 arrived at Vlasic.
9 Q. So you were in Trnopolje about one day, around 24 hours, correct?
10 A. Correct, yes.
11 Q. You said that once you made it to Vlasic, you were let off the
12 buses, weren't you, in Vlasic?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. And that's -- that was the border, wasn't it? Once you were in
15 Vlasic you crossed the border there and you were then in Muslim-held
16 territory, weren't you?
17 A. I don't know. There were some boulders. What do I know where the
18 boundary is? There was this big boulder. We got off the truck or buses,
19 whatever, passed by that boulder and climbed down. I didn't know Vlasic,
20 really. I don't know.
21 Q. Well, when you say you were forced to walk to Travnik, there
22 weren't any -- there weren't any Serb authorities, there weren't any Serb
23 soldiers, there weren't any Serbs in uniforms or anything like that that
24 went with you along that walk from Vlasic to Travnik, were there?
25 A. No, there weren't. Nobody came with us. We were told to get off
1 the trucks and buses and go to your country. And so we did, because it
2 was mined there so we walked past those mines and climbed down.
3 Q. And what the buses actually arrived at was a rock which was the
4 border and once you crossed that border, you were in Muslim territory?
5 A. Possibly, yes.
6 Q. Both in your statement and your testimony, you mentioned a person
7 by the name of Drago or Dragan Tintar and you believed that he was in
8 charge of some of the people that you observed, correct?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. Do you know who commanded Drago, who his commander was?
11 A. No, I don't.
12 Q. You don't know if anyone commanded him, do you?
13 A. No, I don't know that.
14 Q. You mentioned -- let me ask you this: Have you seen him since
15 that time in July of 1992? Have you seen Dragan Tintar since then?
16 A. I didn't understand the question.
17 Q. Have you seen Dragan Tintar since you left that area in July of
18 1992? Have you seen him since then?
19 A. Yes, yes, I have, but I didn't stop to talk with him.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Can we go into private session, please?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.
22 [Private session]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now, Mr. Ackerman.
19 MR. ACKERMAN:
20 Q. In your Stakic testimony at page 5767, you were told by some of
21 the people you talked to in uniform that the army from Serbia was coming
22 and that what will happen to you then, God only knows. You had the sense,
23 didn't you, that you were being pretty seriously warned about danger that
24 might happen when the army from Serbia got there?
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
1 Q. Do you have any idea who this army from Serbia was or what the
2 name of this army was, or anything about it?
3 A. No, no. I don't know about it. My brother's colleague told me
4 that when I went to ask what would happen to us and the rest of people, he
5 said, "Come here and surrender. We will be here until Friday. They have
6 to do something with you but after that we cannot guarantee that you'll
7 live because troops from Serbia were coming and from then on we couldn't
8 guarantee that you'd live."
9 Q. Do you know if the troops ever actually came?
10 A. I don't know. I left so I don't know. I can't tell you. I don't
11 know, because one couldn't really tell them apart. Those who were in
12 uniforms and those coming, I don't know.
13 Q. Okay.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Just give me one moment, please, Your Honour.
15 [Defence counsel confer]
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that's all I have. Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. Is there re-examination?
18 MR. McVICKER: Your Honour, there is no re-examination but I've
19 been told that it's not in the record the exhibit number for the Stakic
20 transcript, and I have it here that it is P1541.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
22 MR. McVICKER: Thank you.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: So that will be Chuqing that will be P1541.
24 So Madam, that brings us to the end of your testimony here. As
25 you see, it was very short. You will be escorted out of this courtroom,
1 after we ensure that no one can see you and as you see, the usher is
2 pulling down the curtains. Before you leave this courtroom, it is my duty
3 as Presiding Judge in my name, as well as in the name of my two
4 colleagues, as well as to the Tribunal, to thank you for having accepted
5 to come to again to this Tribunal to give evidence, and I also wish you a
6 safe journey back home.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Ms. Sutherland, just to confirm and not stay
10 reading in vain or not read what I need to read by tomorrow, tomorrow we
11 are scheduled to have 7.228 still, no?
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And you expect to finish with the witness
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And that will be a morning session
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's correct.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, Mr. Ackerman? I thought you wanted to
20 say something.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I have some things to say when it's my turn.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It's your turn now.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.
24 Your Honour, I will be departing tomorrow so I won't be here
25 tomorrow. I want to wish Your Honours and everyone else in this
1 courtroom, on behalf of the Brdjanin Defence team and Mr. Brdjanin himself
2 a very happy holidays and a very Happy New Year and we look forward to
3 rejoining you next year. I also want to remind everyone and maybe advise
4 those that are not aware that the new association of Defence counsel is
5 having its first annual Christmas party tonight from 7.00 to 9.00 and the
6 address and so forth is in the hands of one of your people and we
7 certainly invite all of you, everyone in this courtroom, to come join us
8 for a festive evening. Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And on behalf of my two colleagues and
10 on my own behalf, we reciprocate greetings for the festive season. Thank
11 you. So that's it. That's all for today. We'll reconvene tomorrow
12 morning at 9.00. Thank you.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
14 4.20 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
15 the 11th day of December, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.