1 Monday, 13 January 2003
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you please call the
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Brdjanin, can you hear me in a
10 language that you can understand?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I
12 can hear you and understand you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: The problem is that I can't hear you. Yes,
14 appearances for the Prosecution?
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, it's Joanna Korner and
16 Nicholas Koumjian assisted by Denise Gustin case manager this morning.
17 Your Honours, may I wish you all a Happy New Year.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you. I wished you all a Happy New Year
19 before I left and I repeat it and hope it will be a good year for
20 everyone. I started it off really well, becoming a grandpa yesterday.
21 So Mr. Ackerman appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin?
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning and Happy New Year, Your Honours. I'm
23 John Ackerman, and I'm here with Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.
24 Nice to see you all again.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and Happy New Year to you too.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there are I'm afraid a number of matters
2 that have arisen over the break, administratively. Can I say this, Your
3 Honour? I'm very anxious that this morning's witness finishes because
4 he's got to potentially appear, reappear in the Stakic case this
5 afternoon, so I wonder if I could delay discussion of those matters until
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, actually, before I even hear Mr. Ackerman, I
8 had a short meeting with one of the senior members of my staff this
9 morning, and I asked him to pass on a message at the right moment to both
10 Defence and Prosecution that it will definitely be the practice that we
11 will be adopting this year that administrative matters, unless they are
12 really important and urgent, will only be dealt with at the end of the
13 sitting, rather than at the beginning. So that we avoid keeping the
14 witnesses waiting sometimes for half an hour, three-quarters of an hour
15 and so on. So unless you have something really urgent or unless
16 Mr. Ackerman has really got asking really urgent to press forward, we will
17 leave the administrative matters.
18 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, in theory that's a wonderful idea
19 except nobody -- and I say this I'm as much to blame as anyone, nobody
20 ever estimates correctly how long anything will take so asking to leave
21 ten minutes -- I think, Your Honour, tomorrow morning, it would be better
22 because they are really matters we need to clear up quite soon. They
23 relate to matters like Rule 92, Your Honour's order, there is a long list
24 of matters but I would ask this morning that we go straight into
25 Mr. Sivac.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I also have several matters to bring up, but I
2 haven't had time to discuss them with the other two judges in any case so
3 we will bring these up later on.
4 MS. KORNER: Yes, well, Your Honour, I wonder if we could maybe we
5 need to say tomorrow morning that the first hour and we will let the
6 witness who is coming tomorrow and will be here for a couple of days know
7 that he won't be required.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Provided you don't bring the witness and keep him
9 waiting there.
10 MS. KORNER: No, no.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That will be fine with me.
12 MS. KORNER: Yes.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman?
14 MR. ACKERMAN: That's fine, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, so let's --
16 MS. KORNER: In that case, Your Honour, Mr. Koumjian is going to
17 call the witness.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: This is to make sure because it's 7.179?
19 MS. KORNER: I have no idea. No. It's Mr. Sivac.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: That's right.
21 MS. KORNER: He's not a protected witness, so I don't know what
22 the number. Oh, it is .179. Your Honour, one other aspect that I ought
23 to mention just in case, tomorrow's witness who is a fairly major witness
24 was due to arrive last Wednesday. Owing to the weather conditions, he
25 didn't. In fact he didn't get here until Friday.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: He's here.
2 MS. KORNER: He is here. He had to go through documents and
3 videos. I don't know whether Your Honour has yet had the list, probably
4 not, but I've compiled the list of the documents and videos for tomorrow
5 over the weekend. I hope, although I have to go into Stakic briefly this
6 afternoon to be able to deal with any matters that arise today, but it may
7 be that I'll have to ask Your Honour in any event for a delay. But I hope
8 not because I'm sincerely anxious as I know Your Honours are to get on
9 with this.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: If that is necessary, I'm sure there won't be any
11 problems either from the Defence and certainly not from this side.
12 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honours be very kind and excuse me for
13 today, therefore?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Ms. Korner. Thank you.
15 Usher, could you please -- the witness does not enjoy any
16 protective measures, no?
17 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's correct, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: And he's never given evidence before?
19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, he has.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I don't have an indication of the -- I
21 do have the -- all right. Sorry. I was looking at another number.
22 MR. KOUMJIAN: We will proffer his Stakic testimony, but the
23 witness also testified in the Omarska case. But we are only proffering
24 the Stakic.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I was looking at another number by mistake.
1 MR. KOUMJIAN: If Your Honour wants, while the witness is being
2 brought in, I could mark the transcript from that trial as Prosecution's
3 next exhibit, which I believe would P1547.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm not sure how the Court has handled exhibits
7 from the Stakic case. We would be at the same time moving to admit all of
8 the exhibits that were used.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I do have them. The thing is that -- anyway, let's
10 move ahead.
11 Good morning to you, Mr. Sivac.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this Tribunal.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: You are about to start giving evidence, and I know
16 that this is not the first time. So I need barely repeat what you have to
17 do. In other words, stand up, take the piece of paper that you will be
18 handed, which contains a solemn declaration to speak the truth, and you
19 kindly proceed by making that solemn declaration. That will be your
20 undertaking with this Chamber that in the course of your testimony, you
21 will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 WITNESS: NUSRET SIVAC
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down. You will first be
3 asked a series of questions by Mr. Koumjian who is the Prosecution
4 official officer in this case handling your testimony. After that, you
5 will be cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman, who is appearing for the accused
6 in this case, who is Radoslav Brdjanin. Mr. Koumjian, the witness is in
7 your hands.
8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.
9 Examined by Mr. Koumjian:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Sivac.
11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honours, if I could first, perhaps, handle
12 that administrative matters of the prior transcript. We would be moving
13 in the P1547 and all of the exhibits that were part of that testimony,
14 including a videotape. I don't think -- we will play the videotape if
15 Your Honours request it, but I don't think it's necessary as long as it's
16 in evidence.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that's not been given to me. So at
18 this point, I oppose it.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think the objection cannot but be sustained if
20 it hasn't been given to Mr. Ackerman.
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, let me just explain the history of that. I'm
22 not sure of the history of the discovery. Ms. Gustin might -- but that
23 particular videotape was not in the hands of the OTP until Mr. Sivac
24 testified last July, and the transcript of Mr. Sivac that was disclosed
25 includes references to the videotape. In fact, it includes a partial
1 transcript of the videotape. The transcript -- the testimony of Mr. Sivac
2 from the Stakic trial does not make complete sense without having that
3 videotape that he refers to for several pages. It was actually disclosed
4 on my understanding from Ms. Gustin on the 29th of October, 2002. So that
5 was --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So perhaps you could check that, Mr. Ackerman.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm not concerned about the videotape. It's the
8 transcript and the exhibits that I'm concerned about. It has become the
9 rule in this Chamber that anything they give to the Trial Chamber has to
10 also be given to me, and it hasn't been given to me. It should be a
11 redacted transcript. I've not seen it, so I don't know if the redactions
12 were properly done, and I don't have the attached exhibits that are being
13 submitted to the Trial Chamber. And that's my objection and I think it's
14 an appropriate objection.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let's postpone this particular issue until
16 after the first break. In the meantime, I suppose that during the first
17 break, you will discuss it amongst yourself and come to sort some of an
19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, I understand --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Because you are saying one thing and he is saying
21 another, and I need to have a clear picture.
22 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm not questioning him at all, and I do have the
23 redacted transcript to provide him now. Apparently the redacted
24 transcript was not provided.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Koumjian.
1 MR. KOUMJIAN: And with Your Honour's consent, I'm going to skip
2 over all introductions and all matters referred to that are not redacted
3 from the transcript and simply go to those matters that are were redacted
4 in that perhaps a few matters that could be clarified from the prior
6 Q. Mr. Sivac, you did testify in your -- in the Stakic case regarding
7 your career with the -- under various names, with the police, or the
8 security whatever names are given for those services in Prijedor. You
9 also testified regarding your internment in the Omarska camp until -- and
10 you were not released until the day after the foreign journalists
12 Can you tell the Court, in the Omarska camp, did you see
13 interrogators, persons who were responsible for the questioning of persons
14 interned in the camp?
15 A. Why, yes. Very often there were my colleagues who used to work
16 with me in the security service. Most of them. They were only a few
17 investigators whom I did not know and I received information from people
18 who went for interrogation -- in for interrogation, that they had come
19 from Banja Luka. The last name of one of them was Popovic. I'm not sure
20 about his first name. I think it is Mane.
21 In my police career, I met that man several times. We sometimes
22 cooperated in same assignments. And another man who came from Banja Luka
23 in a car with Banja Luka plates, and as far as I can remember, he was from
24 the state security service in Banja Luka and the two of them would arrive
25 to Omarska every morning in that car. Other investigators were people I
1 knew well from Prijedor. Most of them were employed by the security
2 service in Prijedor, that is in SUP, Secretariat of the Interior, that is
3 what I will call it. One of them worked for the state security detached
4 office in Prijedor.
5 That particular office in Prijedor is a forward office, is a
6 detached office of the security services centre in Banja Luka. And the
7 terms of reference of that particular office of the state security office
8 in Prijedor were to cover the municipalities of Prijedor, Sanski Most,
9 Bosanski Novi, Bosanska Dubica, and Kljuc.
10 Q. Thank you. Among the interrogators, did you -- or investigators
11 doing the interrogation, were there persons that you knew, recognised, or
12 learned were military -- members of the military or army?
13 A. No. There was -- there were no members of the army there.
14 Q. Can you give us then the categories of the interrogators? You
15 mentioned -- is it correct that there were members of the regular -- of
16 the police. Would that be the crime suppression department, the normal
17 police service in the city of Banja Luka, the municipality?
18 A. The chief of the interrogators in the camp was Ranko Mijic, and I
19 knew him very well. He was the chief before in 1992, of the criminal
20 investigations service in the Prijedor SUP. Besides him there was also
21 Drago Meakic, who was a retired inspector, and he was actually the uncle
22 of Zeljko Meakic who was the commander of the Omarska camp.
23 There was also Nebojsa Babic there, Neso Tomcic. They were also
24 active interrogators in the Prijedor SUP. There was also Zare Tejic, who
25 was a crime technician, who actually went out on site investigations in
1 the SUP -- Prijedor. Rade Knezevic was a retired interrogator in the
2 Prijedor SUP. Obrad Despotovic, he was in charge of monitoring foreigners
3 on behalf of the SUP, and he monitored them while they were there. There
4 were also work -- people there working who were outside of the security
5 service. One of the roughest interrogators in the Omarska camp was
6 Dragan Radakovic. He was an art teacher. But in 1992, he was performing
7 the duty of the director of the Kozara national park.
8 Boro or Dragan Milosavljevic also worked as a an interrogator in
9 the camp, he was an agronomist. And I know that he worked in the
10 agricultural combine of Agrounija. Another very rough interrogator in the
11 Omarska camp, and I know this because all those who went to have an
12 interview with him, came back with visible signs of violence, and his name
13 was Miroslav Zoric. He was a teacher, a teacher at the school of
14 electronics in Prijedor.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the -- both answers the witness has
17 given have not been responsive to the questions. They are going off on
18 very long tangents. The questions were quite simple.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was: Can you give us then the
20 categories of the interrogators. You mentioned, is it correct, that there
21 were members of the regular, of the police. Would that be the crime
22 suppression department? And I lost the line there.
23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Let me -- perhaps I can try to summarise it a bit
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, because, Mr. -- partly you are right and partly
1 he is answering the question and partly he's not. So if you can bring
2 your witness to order, Mr. Koumjian, I think that would be better.
3 MR. KOUMJIAN:
4 Q. Mr. Sivac what I would like you to explain to the Judges is not
5 the individuals' names but the organisations that they belong to. Would
6 it be correct that there were interrogators, as you've already mentioned
7 in your last answer, who were from the crime suppression department, the
8 regular police. You've also told us about there being interrogators from
9 the state security. And would it be correct that these were persons who
10 normally worked in the SUP building in Prijedor but reported to Banja Luka
11 to Stojan Zupljanin in Banja Luka. Would that be correct?
12 A. Yes, it is correct.
13 Q. Thank you. In your testimony in the Stakic case, you talked on
14 direct and then added some more information on cross-examination about
15 some discussions that you had following your release from Omarska in the
16 Trnopolje camp with Mr. Ecem and, I believe, Mr. Rade Mucic, I'm not sure
17 I'm pronouncing his name, the second individual. Can you tell the Court,
18 first of all, how you know those two individuals.
19 A. I've known Rade Mucic and Zivko Ecem a long time before 1992
20 because they used to work for Kozarski Vjesnik which is the local paper
21 and for the local radio station, Radio Prijedor. Rade Mucic at that time
22 was also a correspondent for a newspaper which came at the RMK, that is
23 the metal works in Zenica, mining and metal works in Zenica.
24 Q. And it is in your transcript but to remind the judges, you had a
25 long career in journalism working at the federal level with Sarajevo
1 Television. And is that how you came into contact, into professional
2 contact with these individuals?
3 A. Yes. Quite often some events which I covered for the -- for
4 Sarajevo Television, Rade Mucic and Zivko Ecem also covered it those
5 events for their respective newspapers or stations.
6 Q. So now if you could please tell us, in as much detail as you
7 recall now, about the discussions you had in the Trnopolje camp with Rade
8 Mucic and Zivko Ecem and what they told you about the Omarska camp.
9 A. My contacts with them were spontaneous. I did not want to meet
10 them, being aware of all that they had done before. I knew that they were
11 very close with Admiral Zeljaja, commander of the Prijedor Brigade. They
12 were practically his spokesmen, responsible for his public relations. When
13 I -- as I waited in a queue in front of the infirmary in Trnopolje to seek
14 medical help, because in Omarska, my health was severely impaired, all of
15 a sudden, from behind my back, one caught me by my shoulder and said,
16 "Where are you, Sivi? What are you doing here?" It was Rade Mutic.
17 I turned and he said in a tone which was almost compassionate,
18 that he was sort of apologising to me, for having been put in Omarska and
19 there was no help for anyone in Omarska. Only he said in front of me and
20 I suppose he was trying to wash his hands, the only man to whom -- whom
21 he, Rade Mutic and Zivko Ecem helped was Ratim Seferovic.
22 Q. If I could stop you now, can you tell us briefly who was
23 Mr. Seferovic and how would Mr. Ecem and Mutic have known him?
24 A. Ratim Seferovic was a teacher of literature, and before 1992, he
25 was the director of the Kozarski Vjesnik and Radio Prijedor and they were
1 the same -- also Zivko Ecem and Rade Mutic also worked in that company.
2 Q. You said that they told you that they helped Mr. Seferovic. You
3 said he was the only person that they helped. Did they explain that, that
4 he was the only one that they tried to help or the only one that they
5 could help?
6 A. They said that he was the only person that they had helped.
7 Q. Can you tell us in as much detail as you recall now, exactly what
8 they told you about how they were able to help Mr. Seferovic? First I
9 should ask you to clarify, did you see Mr. Seferovic in the Omarska camp?
10 Was he detained with you?
11 A. No. He wasn't detained with me. When I came to Omarska, he
12 was -- he had already left the camp. They said that they had to write
13 Mr. Ratim Seferovic's biography, and they took that to the commander of
14 the 43rd Motorised Brigade, Radmilo Zeljaja, and then Radmilo Zeljaja took
15 that biography to a meeting of the Crisis Staff in Prijedor. And there he
16 managed to reach an accord or to get approval for Ratim Seferovic to be
17 released from the Omarska camp.
18 Q. Okay, sir. Now I want to go to a couple of documents that were
19 discussed in the Stakic case, and counsel can tell me if he doesn't have
20 them. And if that's true then, we'll wait until later do that.
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I have what was marked in the Stakic
22 case, it's a colour copy, S242/1, it appears to be an issue of Kozarski
23 Vjesnik from the 17th of July, 1992, the first page.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have this document, Mr. Ackerman?
25 MR. ACKERMAN: I think so, yes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Okay, first if that document could be shown to the
4 Q. Sir, there appear to be two articles in that -- on that first
5 page. Can you read slowly for the record the headline of the --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. [Microphone not activated]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Which of the two sheets are you referring the
9 witness to? Because what we have is S242/1 and S242/2. S/1 is this one,
10 in other words.
11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. I handed him S/1, thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And we have some parts of it which are
13 highlighted, have they been highlighted for the purpose of this case or
14 were they highlighted in Stakic -- or not in Stakic, in the case where he
15 gave evidence?
16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I believe that these -- this is a
17 photocopy of the issue that we had in the leadership unit. Someone from
18 that unit had highlighted for whatever reason those particular points.
19 It's highlighted by the OTP but I can't say for this particular case.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And the writing in red, there is one which says nema
21 fakture, and then some numbers, 151.050, 0 something 3, 3.050, 34, ARH,
22 IV, maybe archive or something like that. What's that?
23 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm getting a copy so I can follow, Your Honour.
24 Your Honour, I believe all of these were simply -- was writing made by
25 persons who were making notes at various times. I don't think any of the
1 handwriting should be considered by the witness.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
3 MR. KOUMJIAN:
4 Q. Just to clarify, Mr. Sivac, is it correct that you had not seen
5 this issue of Kozarski Vjesnik and these articles until you testified on
6 the Stakic case, if I've given you the right articles?
7 A. Yes. I didn't see these. At the time when this issue came out, I
8 was at the Omarska camp.
9 Q. Okay. But just to be complete, you have subsequently obtained
10 other prior issues of Kozarski Vjesnik that were issued during the time
11 you were in the camp, but you had not seen this particular issue and these
12 particular articles to your knowledge until you testified in Stakic.
13 Would that be correct?
14 A. Yes. That's correct.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Koumjian, in case it has just passed by without
16 your noticing, you intended before I interrupted you to asking the witness
17 to read part of this document. Did you mean -- did you intend him to read
18 out loud so that we get a translation of the relevant part or just read
19 for himself and then answer the questions that you were putting, going to
20 put to him?
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, I'm actually asking him -- well we have a
22 translation, so it's up to Your Honours. But the translation of the
23 particular article on this page, I believe, is the article -- appears on
24 Exhibit 239, so it's 239A. Perhaps the witness can help me because at the
25 moment I'm confused which of the articles this is the translation of.
1 I could figure it out in time with my limited Cyrillic, but I
2 think he could tell us much quicker.
3 Q. Mr. Sivac, on this first page do you see an article with the
4 headline, "Visits Krajina Representatives in Prijedor"?
5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the first one?
6 A. Yes, I see it. That's the main news item on this page, except the
7 commentary, "New International Order," which is to the right.
8 MR. KOUMJIAN: If we could just put it on the ELMO and the witness
9 will just point to the article he's referring to.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We will do that but it's abundantly clear that he's
11 referring actually to the first article, top, top left, Mr. Koumjian.
12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. We have the
13 translation of that. I don't know if Your Honours would like it to be
14 read; it's rather short. But that would be Exhibit S239A, and I would
15 asking that S239A be admitted into evidence, the translation of that
16 article, which is part of the redacted transcript.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Are we ready with this?
18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Shall I have the witness read it out loud for the
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think there is a need for it. Mr. Ackerman?
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there is no need for it, but don't we
22 need to assign the exhibit different numbers from the Stakic numbers?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: We will do that. I think we will follow the same
24 procedure that we adopted previously in the course of the Stakic
25 documents, before we broke for the holidays, and that would be the -- this
1 number, Stakic, and then slash, the number of -- P19 whatever.
2 Ms. Chuqing? That's not difficult, Mr. Ackerman. You want to know it
4 MR. ACKERMAN: I think for somebody who is reading the record in
5 the future it's important to have the exhibit number at the same place the
6 exhibit is discussed.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not going to make that much difference because
8 whichever number we give it, this number, the Stakic number, is going to
10 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So it does not create any problem. Yes,
12 Mr. Koumjian.
13 MR. KOUMJIAN: Okay. I had the same request as Mr. Ackerman.
14 I'll refer to in my further examination as S239A as the Stakic number if
15 we need to refer to.
16 Can we now have the witness shown page 4 of that issue, which I
17 believe is marked in the Stakic case S242/4. Could that be put on the
19 Q. And Mr. Sivac, if you could identify an article on that page
20 concerning the visit of the delegation to the Omarska camp entitled "It's
21 Difficult For Everyone."
22 A. Yes. That is the heading of the article from the Kozarski
23 Vjesnik, and it's dated the 17th of July, 1992. And the top heading is
24 "Representatives of the Autonomous Region of Krajina and the Banja Luka
25 Municipality Visited Prijedor."
1 Q. In the second paragraph of this article, it lists members of that
2 delegation. Again, would it be correct that you had not seen this article
3 until you testified on the Stakic case?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Which is -- Mr. Koumjian, before he answers, could
5 you direct us to the translation of this article?
6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: And the document number.
8 MR. KOUMJIAN: In the Stakic case S238A is the English
10 JUDGE AGIUS: 238A, okay.
11 MR. KOUMJIAN:
12 Q. My question again, Mr. Sivac, is: Is it correct that you had not
13 seen this article until you testified in the Stakic case and until you had
14 already described the persons that you had recognised in the delegation
15 that visited the Omarska camp?
16 A. Yes. I saw this article later. Before that, I had just finished
17 telling the story about the visit of the delegation of the Autonomous
18 Region of Bosanska Krajina to the Omarska camp, and only after that I
19 received this article to read. And that was the first time that I saw it.
20 Q. To clarify something, because the judges do not have that portion
21 of your transcript, is it correct that in the Stakic case, you had named
22 the person who headed this delegation that had visited the Omarska camp
23 before you saw these articles?
24 A. Yes. I identified completely the persons who were in that
25 delegation, and I was given this article to read by representatives of the
1 Prosecutor's Office and my memory still serves me well. All of those that
2 I had mentioned were actually mentioned by the journalists also who wrote
3 this article, so I was absolutely right.
4 Q. I'm interested right now in one particular individual. Who was
5 the individual that you had testified, before reading this article, headed
6 the delegation that arrived in July at the Omarska camp, the political
8 A. The political delegation came to Omarska. The most prominent and
9 the most important member of the delegation was the accused here, Radoslav
10 Brdjanin. At that time, he was, I think, the President of the Crisis
11 Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.
12 Q. Thank you. If we could now have the exhibit from the Stakic case
13 that was marked S15-2/I put on the ELMO. If Your Honours don't have it,
14 you can use my copy. That's fine.
15 Q. I think, Mr. Sivac, perhaps it's not necessary right at this
16 moment to refer to this map or this photograph, but can you tell the
17 judges in your own words, in July of 1992, you testified in Stakic, you
18 were imprisoned in the Omarska camp. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And do you recall a day in July of that year where a delegation of
21 high-ranking officials arrived, and can you tell Your Honours -- Their
22 Honours about what happened that day?
23 A. From the early morning, all the inmates were told to leave the
24 rooms they were in. Milorad Tadic, Brk; Zeljko Meakic's, the camp
25 commander's assistant, was in charge of lining us up together with the
1 other guards and the heads of the -- the shift leaders, the guards' shift
2 leaders, at the cement plateaus in front of the hangars, in front of the
3 administrative building, where I was staying. I was in the room with Mujo
4 Burho to be specific. And in front of the administrative building, in
5 front of the garage, were the inmates from the garage. That's where they
6 were lined up.
7 Q. Perhaps now you might turn to your right, to the photograph, and
8 use that, if it's helpful to you, to describe the scene that day when the
9 prisoners were taken out of the rooms.
10 A. As you can see, this is the hangar and then somewhere here in this
11 area, where the pista is and the hangar plateau, the inmates were lined
12 up. And then here in front of the administrative building, the inmates
13 were also lined up.
14 Q. Where were you?
15 A. I was standing right here, and I marked the place with my
16 initials, NS, somewhere in front of the administrative building so that I
17 was in a very good position to see what would happen later.
18 Q. Just so the record is clear, the markings on this photograph, the
19 blue initials, NS, you just pointed to and the red lines and there are
20 some other blue ink marks, were those markings that you put on this
21 photograph during your testimony in the Stakic case?
22 A. Yes, that's correct. The whole morning, Milorad Tadic, Brk,
23 practised with us the singing of Chetnik songs, and so that we would shout
24 as loudly as possible, "This is Serbia, this is Serbia," and to raise
25 three fingers in salute. We didn't know what was happening in the camp or
1 what was going to happen. Around noon, along the main road to the Omarska
2 mine from the main entrance towards the camp, we saw a long column of cars
3 arriving. At the head of the column was a police car with rotating
4 lights. It was an armoured vehicle, actually.
5 Q. For the record, you pointed to the lower right of the photograph
6 as the direction from which the vehicles arrived. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes, yes, that's right.
8 Q. I don't know if it might be helpful but do you know on this
9 photograph, which direction north would be, just for -- perhaps to make it
10 easier to refer to matters later?
11 A. This is the north. This is actually the north. I think that's
12 it. South is here and then west and east. North, east, west, and south.
13 I know this very well because before I stayed at the Omarska camp or at
14 the Omarska mine, I reported from the mine hundreds and hundreds of times,
15 I reported on the successes of the employees. I followed the work of the
16 mine practically from the time it started to operate, and I covered every
17 new plant that was opened.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: So just to make it clear, Mr. Sivac, please, the
19 triangle which is at the bottom right of that photograph, points to which
20 direction? To the -- no, the triangle, just move there, just below
21 there. There is a dark triangle at the bottom right of the photo. It is
22 very near where you are. No, no. Of the photo.
23 MR. KOUMJIAN: The corner of the photograph.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: The corner of the photo, the bottom right corner.
25 That is pointing to which direction?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the north, the north, the
2 north. But this is a model.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. So the triangle at the bottom right
4 corner of the photo is indeed pointing towards the north? Thank you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Okay, thank you.
7 Q. So the delegation arrived from the north, and can you tell us
8 again how those vehicles proceeded? What you saw from your position?
9 A. After the APC, behind the APC, which was manned by members of the
10 intervention detachment, who were situated in Prijedor, there was a
11 vehicle where is Simo Drljaca was with his driver, Milorad Vokic and
12 behind him was a car carrying Dusan Jankovic, who was the commander of the
13 police in Prijedor. They jumped out of their cars very quickly and
14 immediately joined the delegation, from the camp, which was headed by
15 Zeljko Meakic, the camp commander, Milorad Tadic, Brk, and others, other
16 guard shift leaders who were working at the Omarska camp.
17 Q. Before you move on, just to clarify, in your transcript in Stakic,
18 you talked about the intervention squad and named two what you called
19 prominent figures or notorious figures, Dado or Darko Mrdja and, I
20 believe, Zoran Babin. Is that the same squad that you're referring to
22 A. Yes, that's right. They were the best-known as well as the worst
23 members, if I can put it that way, of the infamous intervention squad from
24 the Prijedor police station.
25 Q. Now, in addition to these police and security people, can you
1 describe other vehicles with members of the delegation that came?
2 A. Several other vehicles were there which were parked somewhere
3 around the entrance, and then we started to recognise the people who were
4 coming out of those vehicles. The first among those that I recognised was
5 the accused here, Radoslav Brdjanin, who was accompanied by
6 Radomir Vukic. The President of the main board of the Serbian Democratic
7 Party for the region of Banja Luka. His nickname actually was Rale
9 Q. Which translates -- I didn't get the translation of that?
10 A. Rale Monstrum.
11 Q. I'm sorry, sir. You pointed to where the political -- the cars
12 carrying the political leaders stopped and just so the record is clear, am
13 I correct, you pointed to where there are two dots at the northern edge of
14 the model? Is that correct? Right where you are right now? Thank you.
15 I think the record is clear now. You said --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You said you recognised Mr. Brdjanin. Can you tell us how you
18 recognised Mr. Brdjanin?
19 A. I saw Mr. Brdjanin before that in the newspapers or maybe in some
20 TV programmes. He was performing the high function of the president of
21 the Autonomous Region of the Bosnian Krajina of Banja Luka.
22 Q. Okay. What happened after the politicians got out of or the
23 honoured guests, whatever you referred to them as, got out of their
25 A. We were shouting, singing, when they came out of those vehicles.
1 Radoslav Brdjanin approached with the Banja Luka delegation and the
2 Prijedor political delegation, and he stood in front. And out of this
3 group of people, representing the camp delegation, Zeljko Meakic made a
4 few steps forward, the commander of the camp, and practically in a
5 military way, reported and addressed Radoslav Brdjanin. He reported
6 something to him on that occasion.
7 Q. Of all the people that you saw in that delegation, who was the
8 first one that the camp commander Meakic reported to?
9 A. Well, Zeljko Meakic saluted and reported to Radoslav Brdjanin, and
10 behind him were other members of the Banja Luka political delegation, and
11 the Prijedor political delegation.
12 Q. Earlier you talked about in the morning, Brk had you practising
13 singing and you made a brief gesture that you were required to make and
14 you raised your hand. The record would not be clear. Can you describe
15 the gesture that you were forced to make for the delegation. Did you have
16 to give them a type of salute?
17 A. This is the conventional Serb greeting with three fingers. We had
18 to put up our hand all the time and we had to sing very loudly and to
19 shout out, "This is Serbia, this is Serbia." I have to explain to the
20 Chamber the political delegation which came to the camp almost -- I mean
21 almost all members of this delegation were laughing. They thought it was
22 very funny how these personnel from the Omarska camp managed to coach us,
23 to prepare us, for something like that. Amongst the inmates, there were
24 also intellectuals and businessmen; that is, people who had some weight in
25 the municipality of Prijedor, and unfortunately, at that time, they had to
1 humiliate themselves and under pressure, against their own will, they had
2 to sing and utter words which were deeply offensive to the ethnic origin.
3 Q. Sir, this is the middle of July of 1992. Can you describe the
4 appearance of the prisoners who were lined up to greet the Banja Luka
6 A. Well, we looked pretty miserably. Almost all the inmates had
7 torture marks, harassment, ill treatment marks, and we'd already been
8 marked by all that we had gone through in the Omarska camp. Many inmates
9 had no foot wear. A number of us also did not have all the parts of
10 clothing. The speciality of the Omarska guards was to snatch away, be it
11 footwear or perhaps parts of clothes from the inmates, so that many people
12 were barefoot, and naked waist up.
13 Q. Did any of the prisoners, to your recollection, have any bandages
14 and if so, can you describe what was used for these bandages?
15 A. Why, yes. Many inmates had all sorts of bandages, some make shift
16 bandages which Dr. Enes [as interpreted] Sadikovic used to make from parts
17 of our underwear. He would tear up this underwear and use it as bandages
18 to protect, at least a little bit, some of the injuries we had sustained.
19 Q. Can you repeat, please, the first name of Dr. Sadikovic, it was
20 translated as Enes. Can you correct that.
21 A. Dr. Esad Sadikovic, an UNHCR expert, a doctor, a specialist, who
22 treated people all his life irrespective of their faith or colour of their
23 skin. Before that he was in Africa as an UNHCR expert on western Samoa in
24 the Pacific, and he returned to Prijedor on the eve of the war. And from
25 there, he was rounded up when the camp was founded and unfortunately
1 killed him on the 7th of August, 1992.
2 Q. Yes, and you discuss that in your first testimony very thoroughly.
3 Going back to the delegation, can you tell us what they did once
4 they got out of the cars, and in particular, most importantly, please tell
5 us what you recall Mr. Brdjanin doing after he emerged from the vehicle
6 and was saluted by Meakic.
7 A. After that ceremony, if I may call it that, the political
8 delegation headed by Brdjanin moved in this direction and I think he
9 halted somewhere here and he tried to say something briefly, but I
10 couldn't hear that, because -- because we were singing very loudly and
11 shouting those famous slogans so I suppose only those in the front line
12 could hear him, if they heard him. And after a brief delay there, the
13 delegation headed by Brdjanin and others Simo Drljaca and others, took
14 this path towards the administration building to the fetching up at the
15 entrance to the administration building.
16 MR. KOUMJIAN: If I could try to describe what the witness pointed
17 out on the map. He indicated a route along the red line which would be on
18 the east side of the administrative building, the first building, on the
19 northern part of the picture, travelling in a southerly direction. He
20 indicated Mr. Brdjanin stopped at a point where there is a blue dot and
21 attempted to address, say something. He said after that, the delegation
22 continued, and he drew a somewhat circular motion which follows the blue
23 arrow that's drawn in ink that's just outside the red lines.
24 Would that be correct, Your Honour?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, Mr. Koumjian.
1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just mention, I'm sorry, the
3 ceremony, Zeljko Meakic's report took place here at these two points right
4 here. Because these dots mark the places where the masts were with flags,
5 with very large flags. One was the Serb flag with four S's, and the other
6 one was the flag of new Yugoslavia, as they called it, that was the
7 conventional tri-colour without the five-pointed star.
8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Indicating again the two dots at the northern edge
9 of the photograph, lower right of the photograph.
10 Q. Sir, at that time, in the Omarska camp, you were not wearing your
11 glasses. Is that correct?
12 A. No, I wasn't. That is, I had glasses. I started needing -- I
13 needed glasses only for reading but it was only 0.25 or 0.50, so it wasn't
14 a large optics. My eye sight deteriorated suddenly five years ago because
15 in the meantime after all that I had suffered there, I contracted
16 diabetes, high sugar content, and that has been my chief problem over the
17 past five years.
18 Q. The map has red lines on it which I presume, correct me if I'm
19 wrong, are where the prisoners lined up. Is that correct?
20 A. It is, yes, you're quite right.
21 Q. Is it correct then that the prisoners were lined up in addition to
22 in front of the administration building, in front of the garage, and in
23 front of the white house? To the best of your recollection?
24 A. Yes, in the -- in my Stakic case testimony, I drew those lines,
1 Q. And one other matter, perhaps should be clarified. In the Stakic
2 case, you were asked before -- you were asked when you first testified to
3 view six individuals one of which was Dr. Stakic, and you identified him
4 from those six individuals. You correctly identified him. Is that true?
5 The guy you identified is the one who remained in the court and sat down
6 next to Defence counsel. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. I want to go now then -- I'm finished with that photograph -- to
9 matter that was not covered in -- much in your testimony in Stakic. Do
10 you recall the day that the foreign journalists first visited the Omarska
11 camp, Penny Marshall and Vulliamy and Williams?
12 A. Yes. I recall it. It was the August the 5th, if I'm correct.
13 And that day, early in the morning, in front of the building that I was in
14 at Mujo Burho, that is in front of that garage, we heard some noise, we
15 heard people talking and some guards turned up and ordered that in front
16 of the administrative building and the garage where we were, that there
17 had to be complete silence.
18 Q. You mentioned a few moments ago Dr. Eso Sadikovic, and you
19 mentioned him in further detail in your Stakic testimony. Do you recall
20 what happened with Dr. Sadikovic that day, the day that the journalists
21 were to arrive?
22 A. After that order that we had to keep complete silence, that nobody
23 was even to hear that there was somebody in those buildings, they after
24 all that, they called out Dr. Esad Sadikovic and took him away.
25 Dr. Eso Sadikovic was taken out very often. He went to extend medical aid
1 even to guards who came to the camp, drunk, and would wound each other,
2 and that is because of the frequent robbery or mugging of the prisoners.
3 They would start quarrelling. They were start arguing over the booty.
4 And they treated each other very roughly. Quite often, they were also
5 highly intoxicated and then they would fire the weapons that they all had
6 and would wound one another. They took Dr. Eso away and brought him --
7 brought him back only late at night.
8 Q. Did Dr. Sadikovic speak any foreign language?
9 A. Why, yes, of course, he was fluent in English because, being an
10 UNHCR expert and a doctor, and a physician, a member of the medicine san
11 frontier, he frequently stayed for prolonged periods of time in other
12 countries where he had to speak English and I think he was also quite
13 conversant in French. And I think he was learning Spanish because he was
14 waiting to go to a country where that language was spoken.
15 Q. Can you tell us, if you have any information, based upon your
16 knowledge of Dr. Sadikovic, whether you believe he would have been an
17 articulate and effective spokesman for the persons in Omarska, interned in
18 Omarska, and for the non-Serb population of Prijedor, had he been able to
19 speak to the world media?
20 A. Yes. Eso was very, very sociable. He had an a very broad
21 vocabulary and he also enjoyed charisma. He enjoyed a status of a highly
22 accomplished intellectual, and I think that it was because of that that
23 Dr. Eso Sadikovic was removed, fearing that he might establish contact
24 with those journalists who had come, in order to conceal all the things
25 that were going on in the camp.
1 Your Honours, I have to tell you that it was only after I left
2 Bosnia and went to a western country that I saw on television this story
3 about Penny Marshall and Ed Williams' visit. I cried when I saw it
4 because in that story, in that footage, I saw how -- how -- in what an
5 ugly manner and how fiercely Simo Drljaca is explaining to journalists
6 what fantastic treatment we were enjoying in the camp and that they were
7 green berets, all around the camp, that is Muslim fighters and we in that
8 camp had all the food that we needed, all the water that we needed, that
9 we were accommodated well that we were practically in hotels or in some
10 resort or something, yet the reality was quite different, and it was very
11 ugly indeed.
12 Q. In those broadcasts you mentioned that Drljaca told them that
13 there were green berets surrounding Omarska, and you may have seen that he
14 told this them that they were in danger visiting the camp. At that time,
15 in August, August the 5th of 1992, on that day, or prior days, did the
16 guards at the camp show any concern with being shot at from the woods or
17 from the area surrounding Omarska? Did they appear to act as if they
18 thought there were green berets, surrounding the camp?
19 A. True, I saw Simo Drljaca's escort Vokic, is acting in that
20 programme. He puts up a performance about how he's -- at the very
21 entrance at Omarska how he's running and sort of firing in some direction
22 because allegedly the green berets were somewhere in that direction,
23 trying, I guess, to attack this convoy with journalists and with
24 Simo Drljaca, at the head. But it was all a put-on.
25 Towards the end of June, the ethnic cleansing had been completed.
1 That is all the non-Serbs in those areas had been removed and the Omarska
2 camp is -- was surrounded by Serb villages, they were all Serb villages
3 around it. So there was no way for anyone to come near the camp -- I
4 mean, aside from the Serbs.
5 Q. Based upon your experience in the camp, although -- am I correct
6 that you then never saw the foreign journalists? You were kept inside the
7 room throughout their visit. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes. We were inside, in this room. We were given nothing to eat,
9 not even water, and we had to keep very quiet because we'd been
10 threatened, if any -- if one could hear any sound, that is shout or any
11 sign indicating that there were people in that room, that we'd suffer
12 consequences the next day.
13 Q. You said, though, that subsequently, you saw the broadcasts and am
14 I correct you also saw the journalists go to Trnopolje and broadcasts of
15 photographs smuggled to the journalists by Dr. Idriz Merdzanic and
16 Azra Blazevic? Can you tell us if that visit and those broadcasts, if you
17 noticed an effect upon the lives of the people in Omarska and in Prijedor?
18 A. Well, we were kept inside. We were not aware of that visit that
19 day. As I said, this footage was screened several years later again. But
20 after this delegation's visit -- I mean after the journalists' visit,
21 those two journalists, we realised that something unreal was happening in
22 the Omarska camp, that is the guards who had been so rough, who treated us
23 so basically all of a sudden started behaving differently. We simply
24 couldn't understand that they had all of a sudden started talking with us,
25 because until then it was simply inconceivable. And we couldn't
1 understand what was going on, why that complete change in the conduct of
2 the guards and people who worked in the camp administration, in the way
3 they treated us. We simply couldn't comprehend what had happened.
4 And only later, a few days later, that is, after we had been
5 transferred to the Trnopolje camp, we -- it was only then that we learned
6 about that visit and it was thanks to a group of very brave journalists,
7 headed by Penny Marshall and Vulliamy, I think that the lives of many
8 inmates were saved thanks to their visit, and I claim this quite openly
9 because my contacts in the Omarska camp, with the Mlado Radic, Krkan, a
10 man whom I'd known almost all my life and who was one -- the head of one
11 of the worst shifts, when he saw me in the Omarska camp for the first
12 time, he was very surprised and said, "Sivi," that's my nickname, "I can't
13 help you here. All of you who are here are intended for liquidation." I
14 understood what he meant by that.
15 In a contact when I was going for a meal, and food was being
16 distributed by my sister, who was also in the Omarska camp, together with
17 those other 36 women from Prijedor, and I told her briefly that Krkan had
18 said that we would all be liquidated. And she almost cried, but I had to
19 leave straight away. And later on, through Zeljko Meakic, the camp
20 commander, whom she knew very well from different court cases because my
21 sister was a Judge in the Court in Prijedor, and she asked Zeljko if I was
22 to be taken away to be shot, she asked Zeljko if they could kill her
23 instead, because she had -- she was single and I had a wife and children.
24 Q. A day or two after the foreign journalists' visit, two days later,
25 you were released, along with many others, to Trnopolje?
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts. Pages 12764 to 12772.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In your testimony in Stakic, you talked about Dr. Eso Sadikovic
3 being taken away and all the members of your room standing to salute him.
4 When was that in relation to the visit of the foreign journalists?
5 A. It was a few days -- no, a day or two after the journalists'
6 visit. Namely after the journalists' visit, the nights in Omarska were
7 eerily quiet because nobody was being called out, taken away, nobody was
8 liquidated. There was no firing. And sometime towards the dawn break,
9 very early in the morning, suddenly the door opened with a bang and a
10 guard said, "Dr. Eso Sadikovic, come out." We were at a loss. We thought
11 they were taking him again to help somebody, to tend to somebody. But
12 then they told him to take all his belongings with him and then we saw
14 Dr. Eso stood up and he was in the bottom of the room that we were
15 in. He picked up his plastic bag, in which he had a dirty shirt and I
16 think some cigarette butts which the inmates had collected around the camp
17 for him because he was an impassioned smoker, and he slowly started
18 towards the exit. And at that moment, those who were awake and those who
19 were asleep also woke up and stood up and in a chorus, loudly started
20 crying -- shouting, "Doctor, thank you for all that you've done." Doctor,
21 I think was well aware of where they were taking him and we were also well
22 aware of that. When he reached the door, he turned and he only said,
23 "Goodbye, friends." We couldn't really grasp that at that moment, there
24 was a man in the world who could kill such a man.
25 Q. Yesterday, you showed me a newspaper article from Kozarski Vjesnik
1 which I told you I had not seen before in which it had a photograph of
2 Dr. Sadikovic. And is it correct that in this Kozarski Vjesnik articling
3 he's listed as among those favouring the Gandhian way of peace, the
4 moderates, among the Muslims in Prijedor, and this is an issue from after
5 the Serb takeover of Prijedor?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we take this up after the break, Mr. Koumjian?
7 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's my last question.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So, Witness, please answer it.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Dr. Eso and a large number of
10 Prijedor intellectuals of Bosniak and Croat origin organised some --
11 organised rallies for peace. He was indeed a man who didn't think much of
12 violence and solution of problems in a violent manner. He always
13 advocated the Gandhian way of solving problems for Muslims and other
14 people in the municipality of Prijedor.
15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. The only other matters I have to deal
16 with would be the exhibits from the Stakic testimony which we could even
17 do -- I'll get together with Mr. Ackerman.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. See if you could come together in the break
19 for a short while so we'll pave the way for a smoother second session.
20 We'll now break for 25 minutes, is that suitable for what you need
21 to do? And we will resume immediately after that. Thank you.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.38 a.m.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Just for the record, perhaps an explanation to
25 the public is in order to explain why we are starting 30 minutes or even
1 more after. There was some documents that the Defence needed very
2 urgently and time was required to obtain them. So we are now in a
3 position to resume the examination-in-chief and then Mr. Ackerman will
4 follow with the cross-examination.
5 Yes, Mr. Koumjian, please.
6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours. I did say I had no
7 further questions, but over that long break I thought of a few others.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: You said you had some questions or you wanted to
9 refer the witness to some documents?
10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, we can go over the documents, I suggest we --
11 we can do that either now or after he testifies. The admission of the
12 documents that were referred to in the Stakic testimony.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.
14 MR. KOUMJIAN: But I have a few questions to ask.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: There is a question that we would like to put to the
16 witness before Mr. Ackerman takes over.
17 MR. KOUMJIAN: I do have a few questions also.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
19 MR. KOUMJIAN:
20 Q. First, Mr. Sivac, you mentioned Mr. Esad Sadikovic. Do you know
21 if he had a wife and family and if so, what the ethnicity of his wife was?
22 A. Mr. Eso Sadikovic's wife was a Serb. Her name is Zorica. She is
23 somewhere from Serbia. She still lives in Prijedor.
24 Q. And did he have children with her?
25 A. Yes, two children. He had a daughter called Alma and a son called
1 Eniz. At the time when Dr. Eso Sadikovic was killed, his daughter was 15
2 years old and his son was 11. I would just like to note that
3 Dr. Eso Sadikovic's son Eniz is the same age as my daughter, and they went
4 to school together.
5 Q. Thank you. And another matter that I just a few moments ago
6 occurred to me I forgot to ask you about. After your release from the
7 Omarska camp, and Trnopolje, did you ever see the accused, Mr. Brdjanin,
8 on television after that time?
9 A. After I left, Mr. Brdjanin, the accused here, together with a very
10 good acquaintance of mine, Srdjo Srdic, who was the leader of the Serbian
11 Democratic Party from Prijedor, took part in a political programme on Serb
12 television in Banja Luka.
13 Q. Just to clarify, Mr. Srdic was actually a representative to the
14 parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina and later, when the split --
15 A. The Serb assembly, the Serb parliament, yes, that's right.
16 Q. Is it correct he was actually elected to the Bosnian parliament
17 and then when the Serbs left that parliament and formed their own, he
18 joined the Serb parliament?
19 A. Yes, yes. Yes. That's correct.
20 Q. Please describe what you recall about that programme and what was
21 said, particularly by the accused, Mr. Brdjanin?
22 A. The programme lasted for more than an hour and it was open to
23 receive questions from viewers. And as far as I remember, the gist of the
24 programme was that the accused here, Radoslav Brdjanin, commended the
25 Prijedor Crisis Staff and political leadership for having done a very good
1 job in the territory of the Prijedor municipality, that they cleansed the
2 area very well in accordance to some plans. And I remember very well a
3 sentence that he used, and it was a sentence often used by someone who
4 shares his political views, and who worked with him, Radoslav Lukic, known
5 as Rale Monster, Rale Monstrum [Realtime transcript read in error
6 "Radoslav Lukic].
7 Brdjanin repeated a sentence then, that all -- and the sentence is
8 as follows: "All the non-Bosniaks who remained to live there, he said all
9 Turks or balijas who remain in the territory of the Serbian state will
10 shake with fear. Their pants will shake with fear, if they do not accept
11 the laws of the Serbian state.
12 Q. Just one clarification, the transcript and when you discussed Rale
13 Monstrum translated the name as Radoslav Lukic. Can you correct the last
14 name of this individual.
15 A. Radoslav Vukic [Realtime transcript read in error "Vukovic"], with
16 a "V."
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't have any further questions. Your Honours
19 indicated you had one.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Gentlemen, before you start, Mr. Ackerman, we have a
21 very simple question actually. Mr. Sivac, I refer you to previous part of
22 your testimony. You had mentioned Zeljko Meakic, you had mentioned Mlado
23 Radic. Was Mlado Radic also known as Krkan?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. You are right, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: What position did he occupy, that you know of? You
1 referred to this person as someone that you had known almost all your
2 life. So when you met him on the occasion that you referred to before, I
3 was surprised to see you there in Omarska, what position did he occupy
4 then? What was his official function?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mlado Radic, known as Krkan, an
6 acquaintance of mine, I've known him practically all my life, he was most
7 of the time heading the worst guard shift. During their watch, most of
8 the killings and rapes took place.
9 And I would like to say that there has been a mistake again. It
10 should say "Radoslav Vukic" and not "Radoslav Vukovic." At least that's
11 what I see on my transcript.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Was Mr. Mlado a member of the police or some
13 organisation that you know of, at the time that he told you that the
14 inmates there in Omarska were meant to -- were intended for liquidation?
15 Was he a member of the police then? Or what was he?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a member of the police force,
17 an active police officer, at the Omarska Police Station, until he was
18 appointed commander, one of the guard shifts in the Omarska camp.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you.
20 Mr. Ackerman, he's all yours.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you start, Mr. Ackerman is the lead counsel
23 for Mr. Brdjanin. Your duty here as a witness is to answer his questions
24 the same way you answered the questions from the Prosecution. You have no
25 right to discriminate in favour or against any one of the officials here.
1 He is here in an official function and he has the responsibility and duty
2 to defend his client. Therefore, he's got every right to ask questions to
3 you and you have an absolute duty to answer each and every question as
4 truthfully and as fully as you can. Thank you.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:
6 Q. Good morning, sir.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. I want to personally apologise to you for the delay that was
9 occasioned a few moments ago and tell you that it was completely my
10 fault. But I'm sorry for that. The result of that is that the time I
11 have to cross-examine you is shortened, and the only way that we can get
12 that done is if you cooperate with me by answering the questions as -- in
13 as brief a way as possible. And if I want you to explain further about
14 some answer, then I can ask you to do that. Would that be fair to you?
15 A. I will do my best to give brief answers.
16 Q. Now, one of the things I'm going to be doing is referring to some
17 prior statements that you made, and you of course have an absolute right
18 to look at those statements and confirm that what I'm saying you said is
19 correct, but I would like to not do that, because of the time it takes,
20 unless you believe it's absolutely necessary for you to do so. And you'll
21 certainly have that right if you believe it's necessary.
22 I want to begin my questioning of you by referring to one of those
23 statements which comes out of a 17 February 2002 telephone conversation
24 that you had with representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor, and in
25 that conversation, you were being asked about the persons who were part of
1 this delegation that you have testified about here today. And in the
2 course of naming the persons, you failed to name Radoslav Vukic. You were
3 then reminded that you mentioned Dr. Vukic in an earlier statement I
4 believe your 1994 statement.
5 Do you remember that exchange during your telephone conversation?
6 A. I made many phone calls, specially with the Prosecutor's Office,
7 and this was often done without the presence of an interpreter. When I
8 testified in the Stakic case, I said that many of those conversations, the
9 telephone conversations that I had, I do not accept because they were
10 conducted without an interpreter under special circumstances. Quite
11 often, I had -- held those conversations while I was driving my car.
12 So at those times, I was not able to fully concentrate, simply the
13 representatives from the Prosecutor's Office got to me while I was on the
14 road and I usually try to keep those conversations as brief as possible
15 because I was in the middle of driving. So at those times, I perhaps did
16 not mention some of those people who were in the delegation that toured
17 the camp.
18 Secondly, I was never able to look and read through and correct
19 any of those statements that I had given over the telephone. Last time I
20 was here in July, I was taken unawares. And to give you a specific answer
21 to your question, I accept the first statement that I gave in 1994. This
22 statement was the most correct, and even since that time, nine years have
23 passed. But at the time that I gave the statement my memory, my
24 recollection, was quite fresh and all of the things that I had lived
25 through while I was in the Omarska and Trnopolje camps were still fresh in
1 my mind.
2 Q. Well, you finally at the end of your answer, sort of made the
3 point that I was labouriously going to get to and that is that the things
4 in your earlier statements, your 1994 statement, are likely to be your
5 best recollection of the events. That's a fair statement, isn't it?
6 A. Yes. Although I looked at that statement of mine for the first
7 time after six years, and in that statement, some of the things that I
8 said were quite badly translated, but I believe that they do not affect my
9 overall statement that much, nor the substance of it.
10 Q. Now, you're doing what I hoped you would not do so that we could
11 finish today, and that is your giving me much longer answers than my
12 question calls for. If you really try not to do, we'll finish today.
13 Otherwise you'll be here in the morning.
14 A. Very well.
15 Q. I'm going to do my part to try to finish today. I need your
16 cooperation. In your book --
17 A. Yes, I apologise.
18 Q. That's all right. In your book about -- I'm going to a different
19 subject now -- in your book that's the Carsija u Prijedor u book, and I'm
20 referring to the English summary only, page 22, I'm just going to tell you
21 what that English summary says, sir. "Mirzat continues his story and
22 gives an account of the retreat of the remains of Korevska Ceta Kurevo
23 companies. In his opinion, the blame for what happened in Prijedor lies
24 with the leader of the SDA who betrayed their own people." Now, my first
25 question is who is Mirzat?
1 A. Mirzat is my neighbour from Prijedor. He lives somewhere in
2 [redacted] today and I don't know, Your Honour, I can reveal his identity.
3 His name is Mirzet Borazerovic, and he lives in [redacted]. So I hope that
4 will not create any problems for him. And he used to be my neighbour in
6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps just in the interests of caution, we should
7 redact the location.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: I agree with that.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. [Microphone not activated].
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's how it will be. The whereabouts of
12 this person will be redacted. His name, however, will be retained in the
13 transcript as stated by the witness.
14 MR. ACKERMAN:
15 Q. Sir, can you tell us what it means that the SDA later betrayed his
16 own people?
17 A. In the political biography of Mirza Mujadzic the leader of the SDA
18 party in Prijedor, and many people are upset with him. There is a stain
19 on that biography. I don't know if you had the opportunity -- and I need
20 to be a little more detailed here, not too long though, I don't know if
21 you ever saw the Radio Prijedor audio cassettes in which three years
22 later, Simo Miskovic, the leader of the Serbian Democratic Party publicly
23 talks about how the 30th of April, which is a key date in the destruction
24 of the Prijedor municipality. On that day, Mr. Mujadzic came to the
25 barracks to see Captain Arsic and Lieutenant Zeljaja, and in the presence
1 of the SDA leader, practically reached an agreement to hand over power in
2 Prijedor without firing one bullet, and this is what it was like,
3 Mr. Attorney. Many friends believe, many people in Prijedor believe that
4 with that act, Mirza Mujadzic betrayed his own people.
5 Q. Thank you. Referring again to the Carsija book, and this is page
6 55 of the English summary, there is a section in your book where you talk
7 about Muslims who committed crimes against their own people. And what you
8 said was, if this summary is correct, "It is not often mentioned that some
9 of the Muslims committed despicable crimes against their own people. Some
10 of them were even more cruel than Serbs." And then you give a list of 15
11 people who you claim were part of that group. And I'd like to go through
12 that list as briefly as we can.
13 The first one on the list is Sead Besic, and you indicate that he
14 was from Kozarac, that he was loyal to the new Serbian state and worked
15 for the SDB, he denounced and disarmed Bosniaks and Croats and played a
16 key role in overthrowing the legally elected government of the SDA and HDZ
17 and bringing the SDS to power. After a genocide in the region of Prijedor
18 he was promoted and moved to the security service centre in Banja Luka
19 where he remains to the present day. Correct?
20 A. Yes. Shortly afterwards, he had -- he was forced to retire and
21 there was no longer any work for him in the Public Security Services in
22 Banja Luka, and I think that today he's living in Prijedor.
23 Q. But the second person on the list is Hamdija Handzic. He was a
24 major in the JNA apparently, an artillery major. His artillery units
25 destroyed houses and killed people you say in Kostajnica, Jasenovac,
1 Lipik, Pakrac, Kozarac, Prijedor and the surrounding villages of Carakovo,
2 Hambarine, and Borcani --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down?
4 MR. ACKERMAN: He also destroyed houses and killed people in
5 Gradacac, Orasje, Brcko, Bihac, Bosanska Krupa, correct?
6 A. Yes, Hamdija Hadzic called Mikula, little Mikola. A very good
7 acquaintance of mine. I was surprised when in reporting for TV Sarajevo
8 in 1991 from the front in Croatia, in an artillery regiment, I was
9 surprised when I saw Hamdija Hadzic. Everything was clear to me.
10 Sead Besic is married to a Serb. Hamdija Hadzic also, so they have mixed
11 marriages. Even though I have nothing against mixed marriages, a large
12 number of people who lived -- who had married Serb women accepted the
13 ideology at that time which was conducted at that time by the Serbian
14 authorities, and they expressed loyalty and actively participated in the
15 killing of their own people.
16 Q. Number 3 is a person named Zijad Music, aka Ziko?
17 A. Not Ziko, I apologise, but Ziko. He is one of the most notorious
18 members of the infamous elite squad which was called "el manijakos." I
19 would like to have a proper translation of that term "el manijakos," which
20 were equipped and trained by Radmilo Zeljaja and they acted as part of the
21 343rd Motorised Brigade in Croatia, and then that Brigade was just called
22 the 43rd Motorised Brigade.
23 Q. The translation of "el manijakos" is the maniacs. Is that
25 A. Yes, more or less. And that is how they behaved.
1 Q. Number 4 is Asmir Music, a Serbian volunteer, destroyed and among
2 other things set the house of HM on fire, took part in the mass killings
3 during the cleansing of the villages surrounding Prijedor in Croatia and
4 BH. Correct?
5 A. Yes, Asmir Muhic is the son of Husein Zika [phoen]. He also
6 participated in that. He's a cousin of Sia Music Zika [phoen], so
7 sometimes they acted together.
8 Q. Number 5 is Zlatan Blazevic, who you say was the founder and
9 commander of the "los manijakos," the maniacs, and he specialized in
10 killing, chronic alcoholic, looter, and killer. True?
11 A. Zlatan Blazevic, yes, the son of Anto, a Croat and his mother was
12 a Muslim, was also a member of -- "el manijakos." And in one action they
13 conducted somewhere in the corridor, he was killed sometime in 1992 and
14 1993, in late 1992 or in early 1993. But his own brother, Atko Blazevic
15 came in his place and he's also on that list.
16 Q. So Atko is number 6 on the list and you've already mentioned him
17 so --
18 A. Yes. He's the brother of Zlatan Blazevic.
19 Q. I will now go to number 7, Emsud Sabic, aka, Sabo, a cafe owner
20 was a volunteer financed the Chetnik unit of Zoran Karlica, took part in
21 mass killings around Gradacac and Orasje, Bihac and Derventa, permanent
22 sponsor and supplier of the Serbian army, provides them with food and
23 cigarettes. Correct?
24 A. Yes. Sabic shabo is a well known merchant in Prijedor and he owns
25 a coffee shop. He's also married to a close cousin of Zoran Karlica. One
1 of the commanders in the 343 or the 43rd Motorised Brigade of Radmilo
2 Zeljaja and he actively participated in the fighting around Gradacac,
3 Brod, Derventa, and other places where the Prijedor Brigade acted, the
4 Prijedor Serb Brigade.
5 Q. Number 8 is Sabahudin Zulic, you describe as a Chetnik and member
6 of Zoran Karlica's unit, distinguished itself in atrocities and murders in
7 Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, destroyed Stari Grad, Lukavica,
8 Partizankska Street, M. Suljanovica Street in Prijedor, destroyed villages
9 near Prijedor. Correct?
10 A. No. He didn't live in Partizankska Street but he lived near the
11 Parisankso cemetery and he was the closest neighbour of Zoran Karlica and
12 he was also his work colleague. They went to war together in Croatia to
13 fight together in Croatia, and after that, they went to Bosnia.
14 Q. Number 9 is Goran Egrlic, Serbian volunteer at all fronts in
15 Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, personal driver and body guard of Vladimir
16 Arsic and Radmilo Zeljaja, two notorious Chetnik officers, correct?
17 A. Yes. Goran Ergerlic, son of Husad [phoen] and mother Dragica
18 [phoen], that is his father is Muslim and his mother is Serb, up to the
19 war, that is until 1992, he worked as a driver at the SDK service. And
20 when the war started, when the war in Croatia started, when the Brigade
21 under the command of Radmilo Zeljaja went against Croatia because he was
22 his driver of Zeljaja's and his personal escort, he was slightly wounded.
23 That is I have to mention him, that in Croatia somewhere around the Pakrac
24 or Pikan [phoen], there was an attack on Radmilo Zeljaja, an assassination
25 attempt, but they managed to get out alive. They survived.
1 Q. Number 10 is Fatima Kararic a professor at grammar school in
2 Prijedor. You say about her that she used to break in and loot abandoned
3 apartments and move Chetniks in. She personally evicted her Bosniak and
4 Croatian colleagues. Then you say, She is responsible for the ethnic
5 cleansing in the region of Prijedor, an accomplice in the murder of the
6 professors of the grammar school, Muhammed Cehajic, Fikret Mujkic, Latif
7 Benic, and Husein Crnkic. True?
8 A. Fatima Kararic, a Muslim, is a person who worked as a teacher in
9 the grammar school and she was married to a Serb man. His last name was
10 Sipovac, and he worked in the Prijedor military department. And I
11 remember very well that in 1991, when she organised at the Prijedor
12 grammar school two lines of children who threw flowers on the Prijedor
13 Brigade led by Radmilo Zeljaja and Zoran Karlica who were returning from
14 the Croatian front. They were having orgies in the streets of Prijedor.
15 They were firing in the streets.
16 And Fatima Kararic, together with her followers people who thought
17 the same as her in the Prijedor grammar school, she then used these
18 children from the school to throw flowers and the brigade and the troops
19 the soldiers who were coming back from Croatia where they had killed
20 Croatian people. In the Omarska camp, counsel -- I'll be very brief. In
21 the Omarska camp, teacher Fikret Mujakic was killed, teacher Husein
22 Crnkic, and the head master of the Prijedor grammar school where Fatima
23 Kararic worked and Latif Benic. So I would just like to mention these
25 And they were killed and a life story, their biography, Fatima
1 Kararic accused them of some imaginary things and their life was cut short
2 in the camp of Omarska. They were killed in Omarska.
3 Q. Number 11 is Ernest Badnjevic who you say from the beginning of
4 the war wore a Chetnik uniform and provided services for the Chetnik army
5 through the integral firm of which he was a joint owner, correct?
6 A. Yes. He had a special duty. He would assign for the Radmilo
7 Zeljaja Brigade he would decide on all the propaganda tasks. And he wore
8 a uniform and he even went to wage war somewhere in -- on the front,
9 somewhere in Bosnia or in Croatia. He used to be a youth official in the
10 Prijedor municipality. He was a member of the SK committee.
11 Counsel, I'd just have to stress that this is a lot longer list,
12 but I have just put in the book people who were the most prominent, those
13 who were known by the most people in Prijedor. There should be some
14 additional lists but not many, during those times. However, many Muslims,
15 Bosniaks, Croats, they were aware of what they can expect, and they did
16 not want to buckle under pressure or, God forbid, accept the humiliation
17 to accept the Serb or Chetnik ideology, which we can see in this list,
18 some of them did accept it in order to save their own skin.
19 Q. We have four more. Let's get through them as quickly as we can,
20 please. Zlatan Crnalic was a pilot in the Serbian air force?
21 A. Yes, Zlatan Crnalic, again my neighbour on that list, most people
22 are my neighbours. This is son of Hajro. Before 1992 he was active in
23 the army. He was used to be a pilot in the Yugoslav air force, and he
24 flew from Berovica Slavonja on a plane. He flew into the Banja Luka
25 airport. He became loyal to the Serb authorities, and he became a pilot
1 in the Serb air force.
2 Q. And in that process did some bombing, you say he bombed Bihac,
3 Cazin, Kladusa, Krupa, Travnik, Vlasic, and in that process killed
4 numerous innocent civilians.
5 A. Yes. He was active in the air force of the Republika Srpska, and
6 it is well known where and which parts of Bosnia this air force was active
7 during the conflict in Bosnia.
8 Q. Number 13 is Muhamed Sarajlic. He was a reserve policeman who you
9 say signed a certificate of loyalty to Serbian authorities and wearing a
10 uniform of Serbian police took part in the ethnic cleansing in Prijedor
11 region and the deportation of people in the camps. True?
12 A. Yes, true.
13 Q. Number 14 is Sead Alajbegovic. He remained loyal to Serbian
14 authorities after he signed the certificate of loyalty. Became their main
15 supplier of food and cigarettes, donated large amounts of foreign
16 currency, money was used for salaries?
17 A. Yes, that's correct. That's true.
18 Q. Finally number 15, Zlatan Selimbegovic, a Serbian volunteer, wore
19 the Chetnik uniform, and has been on all fronts in Bosnia-Herzegovina
20 where the Chetnik army committed crimes.
21 Okay? Is that true?
22 A. Yes, that's true, counsel.
23 Q. All right. Thank you. I want to go to a different subject now.
24 I want to talk about how the camp at Omarska was created. In your
25 original 1994 statement to the Prosecutor, you told the people who you
1 were talking to that a gentleman by the name of Milan Andjic was one of
2 the people behind the setting up of the Omarska camp. And then earlier,
3 in 1993, in a statement you made in Zagreb, you said, "The extremists that
4 organised and financed the Omarska detention camp were Milan Andjic, a
5 shopkeeper from Omarska, and owner of the Trias tavern, Nedjo Delic, owner
6 of two restaurants called Europe, one in Prijedor and the other in
7 Omarska. The name of the commander of their paramilitary formations which
8 they organised and financed was Nenad Radanovic, AKA, Cigo, who killed
9 several hundred civilians during the cleansing of Kozarac."
10 Let me first ask you what you know about this person Cigo?
11 A. Nenad Radanovic, also known as Cigo, he used to be, before the
12 war, a taxi driver in Prijedor. He was a close friend of -- that is his
13 senior friend and colleague was Nenad Andjic, a merchant from Omarska, a
14 very influential man in this area. When the war in Croatia started in
15 1991, Milan Andjic personally because he was a very rich man, he collected
16 a group of young men from Omarska and the Prijedor area and he personally
17 dressed them and they were armed by the then army, the Yugoslav army.
18 They were -- they underwent special training at the Manjaca
19 training ground and they took part in the war in Croatia as a special
20 elite unit from Omarska. A large amount of looted things from Croatia,
21 which this unit under the command of Nenad Radanovic, Cigo, brought --
22 they were brought to Omarska to the very large yard of Milan Andjic.
23 That's where they were brought. In that yard, he sold building material
24 and other things, kitchen appliances.
25 Later on, Milan Andjic managed to sell all these things through
1 his shops while Radanovic continued to take part in combat in various
2 fronts near corridor, in Derventa, in Gradacac, and other fronts in
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And one of the darkest plots in his operations was
4 the ethnic cleansing of the right side, so to speak, of the villages that
5 are neighbouring Kozarac. During the ethnic cleansing of Kozarac, and the
6 villages that are linked to Kozarac, Jakupovici, Brdjani, a large number
7 of civilians were killed, women and children, and on that side, along this
8 direction, it was the brigade of Nenad Radanovic, Cigo, which was involved
9 on that side, and he is thought to have committed many crimes that were
10 committed there, a large number of crimes.
11 You asked me further on about Nenad Radanovic, Cigo, what I know
12 about him. I know that later on in the Prijedor municipality, he became
13 one of the vice-presidents of the Prijedor municipality, precisely thanks
14 to his war achievements.
15 Q. A statement that you made to German authorities, you were asked
16 about the two people we've mentioned, Andjic and Delic that you described
17 as people responsible for setting up Omarska camp, and you said the
18 following: "Both those individuals are influential business people from
19 the area --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel slow down when reading,
22 MR. ACKERMAN:
23 Q. Both those individuals are influential business people from the
24 area and are almost the most important politicians there. Both were
25 responsible for ensuring that the Serbian population formed the proper
1 judgement of the Muslims, that is they were the intellectuals who were
2 responsible for shaping opinion.
3 Do you stand by that statement?
4 A. This is all completely incorrect, sir. I don't understand that,
5 sir. I've known them for such a long time. I would never have said that,
6 that they were intellectuals. They are merchants, profiteers. They had
7 their own bars, restaurant. I never said that they had established a
8 camp. These were the people who financed some of those camps in part.
9 That is completely untrue. I don't believe that I could have stated such
10 a thing, particularly not in 1993.
11 Q. So when you said in your 1994 statement to the OTP that Milan
12 Andjic was one of the people behind the setting up of Omarska camp, were
13 you misquoted? Was that a bad translation? Or what do you want to say
14 about that?
15 A. 1994, I said that Milan Andjic was one of the people who financed
16 and organised the camp, yes. His task was, given by the Crisis Staff, was
17 to organise the camp, to supply the food that we in fact got only once a
18 day. He often came to the Omarska camp. Let me just tell you and only at
19 night, sometime from midnight onwards. He took out Dedo Crnalic, who used
20 to be a business partner of his from Prijedor, and for many nights they
21 spoke together. Dedo was together with me in the premises, and he was a
22 good friend of mine.
23 So I asked him, what have you got to talk to Milan Andjic about
24 when we although that Milan Andjic was one of the organisers of this camp,
25 that he was one of his biggest sponsors, but Dedo was an elderly man, he
1 was my heave and he said, well, I have to speak to someone to find out
2 what will happen to us in this camp. Unfortunately, that Crnalic was
3 killed on the 7th of August, in the convoy of camp prisoners who were
4 being taken to Manjaca.
5 And counsel, let me just ask you something. I apologise. This
6 statement given in Zagreb, I don't know who I gave that to. Was that some
7 centre for information with the Croatian government? And Jadrinka Sigim
8 [phoen] may have take then statement, who was a co-prisoner of mine in the
9 camp, who then started to work for the information centre in Zagreb. And
10 she started to forge our statements to give false statements regarding our
11 stay in the camp, and she was -- she was diminishing everything that
12 happened to us in 1992 in order to put forward her own Croatian
13 belonging. So I completely would like to distance myself from this
14 statement, and I would request to have a look at it again. Thank you.
15 Q. I'm showing you the statement that I was referring to and I don't
16 know where it came from. The translation doesn't really tell us. Maybe
17 you'll recognise it. Maybe you won't.
18 A. I am sorry, I can't find that. On which page is that?
19 Q. Are you looking for the quote that I gave you?
20 A. Yes, yes, the quote. I'm really interested?
21 Q. On the English version it was on page 5. It begins with: "The
22 extremists that organised and financed the Omarska detention camp were
23 Milan Andjic," and then it goes on from there.
24 A. That's correct. Extremists, yes.
25 Q. You found it?
1 A. No, no, no, I haven't quite found it. This, what is said here,
2 something is a little confused here. Could you just give me the code
3 number below, please? What I have, the last 3 number, 746, 747, 748, 749,
4 750, the last three numbers of the code number.
5 Q. Well, you have the document and I don't so I can't find -- I'm
6 looking at the English version.
7 A. Yes, very well. Can you just repeat, if you don't mind, if you
8 can repeat your question so that I can answer you? What I said and what I
9 remember and have always said and I stand by it, is that Milan Andjic was
10 in charge of this camp and Nedjo Delic, somewhat less, and that Andjic was
11 the most responsible political person. Everybody listened to him in
12 Omarska. He was the one who was financing and organising it, and the main
13 organiser is well known. These were the civilian authorities of the
14 municipality of Prijedor, and this is what I said like in the Stakic case
15 and Milomir Stakic was one of the responsible. These were the civilian
16 authorities of the Prijedor municipality who were responsible for it. If
17 you don't have that statement, I have, so I can give you one.
18 Q. Well, in the 1993 statement in Zagreb, that you have before you
19 now, sir, it is correct that --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- That that statement at least indicates that you said: "The
22 extremists that organised and financed the Omarska detention camp were
23 Milan Andjic, a shopkeeper from Omarska and owner of the Trias tavern,
24 Nedjo Delic, owner of two restaurants called Europe, one in Prijedor the
25 other in Omarska."
1 That's at least what the statement says that you said, doesn't it?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sivac --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's correct. Yes,
4 that's what I'm saying now. That's what I stand by today. In all of
5 these statements, I mentioned these people. That means that's correct.
6 MR. ACKERMAN:
7 Q. The statement I'm actually more interested at this point is the
8 one you gave to German authorities, and I now want to hand you that one.
9 I want to refer you to page 6 and I've made a little mark there where the
10 paragraph starts that I'm interested in. You see that?
11 A. Yes. I can see it, sir.
12 Q. I think it's your position that there is something not correct
13 about that, true?
14 A. A large part of this statement has not been translated correctly.
15 As far as I remember, the interpreter, when I was giving the statement,
16 this was an interpreter, a Croat woman, who had lived for many years in
17 Germany, her name was Blazenkovic, and I never read this statement. This
18 is some kind of a shortened version. And everything that you can see here
19 has been taken out of the context of my statement. So my statements were
20 shortened. They were edited so to speak.
21 Q. Did you say that these people, Andjic and Delic, were responsible
22 for shaping opinion?
23 A. No. Not opinion. They were responsible for establishing a camp.
24 But they were influential. Nedo -- Andjic was just an ordinary village
25 politician. They were not intellectuals, I don't understand how this
1 could have entered into my statement.
2 Q. All right. Thank you. I want to go back now to your book, the
3 Carsija book. That book, under a heading called, "Calm before the storm,"
4 you wrote this: "No sooner than the war broke out, Milan Andjic formed
5 his own paramilitary unit. Momcilo Radanovic aka, Cigo, a former taxi
6 driver was appointed its commander. The long-held dream of the Omarska
7 peasants to take over Prijedor finally came true."
8 My question is: What is this long-held dream of the Omarska
9 peasants to which you refer?
10 A. Let me tell you, Mr. Ackerman. My answer -- for my answer I would
11 have to go back into history, into the history of the Prijedor
12 municipality, and that would need a lot of time here, but to cut the long
13 story short, Omarska -- what has been a characteristic Chetnik region, and
14 I think that you perhaps understand what that means. It had a deep
15 Chetnik tradition, and it has always been region which did not accept,
16 although they were part of the Prijedor municipality, frequently they had
17 some kind of rebellions, they rebelled against the legally elected
18 authority in Prijedor in communist times. They simply frequently refused
19 to accept, and publicly said that if a Muslim was to head the Prijedor
20 municipality, for them that was incomprehensible.
21 They used pejorative terms. They did not want to accept authority
22 in Prijedor municipality if led by a Turk, which is a derogatory for a
23 Muslim, and I can list here countless examples when I reported in my very
24 rich journalistic experience and I can mention just one incident. When
25 the Omarska mine was founded, which was made in the local commune of
1 Omarska, I was told by one of the leaders, Milan Andjic or someone else
2 that practically all of them, and just them, would be working in the
3 Omarska mine. They couldn't accept that in these mine, which was one of
4 the most modern in Europe, would have to be employing experts who knew
5 about the exploitation of mines.
6 They kept saying that only people from Omarska would be working
7 there regardless of their training and there were incidents that villages
8 in Omarska, very frequently created incidents that the water supply was
9 needed for the -- was cut, which was needed for the technological process
10 and they were protesting because allegedly they had not been given a job
11 in the mine. Their tendency and I do know that, that for a while this was
12 a little freer, the way that they were start stating what they wanted is
13 that the local commune of Omarska and many villages surrounding Omarska,
14 they were even writing petitions, demanding for their area to be attached
15 to Banja Luka, where Serbs had the authority, where Serbs were in charge.
16 Q. Thank you. Very briefly, I want to talk just ask you one question
17 about the running of Omarska and Trnopolje. In your testimony in the
18 Stakic case in July, page 6.753, you were asked about the role of the army
19 in the running of Omarska, and you said this, "I don't know what the chain
20 of command was. I'm not familiar with that. But as a prisoner, I had the
21 impression that they didn't have any business connections with the camp.
22 In Omarska, as well as Trnopolje, and Keraterm, there were not soldiers,
23 and that's why I think that the army did not have any authority over these
24 camps, that they were run by the civilian authorities of Prijedor
1 My question is: Do you stand by that statement made last July in
2 the Stakic case?
3 A. Yes. I stand by that. The organisation and the scheme of the
4 camp is the work of the civilian authorities of the Prijedor municipality,
5 of the Crisis Staff of Prijedor municipality. And chain of command and
6 the management, administration in the camp, was established according to
7 what I said in my first statement, in the camps of Omarska, Keraterm and
8 Trnopolje, at the main position --
9 Q. I only asked you if you stood by that statement and you said that
10 you did. I want to now refer you --
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. -- to another issue. In your November 1994 statement to the
13 Office of the Prosecutor, you were referring -- this is on page 13 of the
14 English version -- you were referring to the period of July, August of
15 1991. You said, "Retreating JNA forces at that point arrive in Prijedor.
16 They harassed the civilian population, fired at Muslim homes," and then
17 this is a quote directly from your statement, "The authorities had lost
18 control and there was anarchy." That's true, isn't it?
19 A. Yes. Counsel, unfortunately, Hasan Talundic a Muslim was at the
20 head of the police station in Prijedor who at that time and in that post
21 was only there formally. All the Serb army units that were returning from
22 the front in Croatia wreaked havoc in Prijedor. They would fire at
23 random, and the security services could do nothing because they were
24 backed by Radim Zeljaja and Vladimir Arsic and people from the military
25 leadership in Prijedor.
1 Q. And right after this statement: "The authorities had lost control
2 and there was anarchy," you say the following, "The Muslim chief of police
3 said he could do nothing as the army supported these people. I was in
4 touch with the authorities. There was chaos in town. The police were
5 powerless as they were mainly Serb anyway. The military effectively took
6 over." True?
7 A. To a certain extent, I do agree, and I said in answer to your
8 previous question, that the police and people from the security services
9 could do nothing because this chaos was created by drunken soldiers,
10 soldiers who were returning from the front in Croatia, and I said that
11 nobody could do anything with them. They were only responsible to the
12 military leadership of the Prijedor municipality. Otherwise, there could
13 be a confrontation because the Muslim at the head of the security service,
14 Hasan Talundzic, it was impossible for him. These Serb soldiers running
15 amuck throughout Prijedor were -- and they were very well armed, they were
16 really very well armed, it was really very difficult to oppose them.
17 Q. And this at least continued into April of 1992, because in your
18 book, the Carsija book, you say various gangs took justice into their own
19 hands. True? With regard to April of 1992.
20 A. Yes. But only after the takeover of power. Before the takeover,
21 on the 30th of April, all the incidents in Prijedor were committed by
22 members of the Serb army. Only after the takeover, on the 30th of April,
23 which is the key date in municipality of Prijedor, then paramilitary
24 formations and gangs began to be active in Prijedor, headed by Zoran
25 Zigic, Djole Dosan and others.
1 Q. Yes. Back again to your 1994 statement to the Prosecutor, page
2 14, and we are in the -- near the end of 1991 again, you say this: "Serbs
3 returned from the front and the black market in weapons boomed. Automatic
4 rifles cost a thousand Deutschmarks; semi-automatic, 800 Deutschmarks;
5 pistols, 500 Deutschmarks; and grenades for 10 Deutschmarks. They sold in
6 large numbers. Richer Muslims bought them."
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. These were weapons that these soldiers were bringing back from the
10 front, from the fighting in Croatia, that then were being sold to, as you
11 say, to richer Muslims?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Amongst others. Amongst others.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Amongst others, yes, that's correct.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... It seems that
15 the richer Muslims were the only buyers.
16 MR. ACKERMAN:
17 Q. Did you answer?
18 A. Yes. Others too. Yes. Others as well, and Muslims, but Serbs
19 didn't really need that because they received free weapons and they had
20 large quantities of those. But in order to drink and to continue to wreak
21 havoc in town, the Serb soldiers needed money because they didn't have too
22 much money. They weren't really very well paid, so they needed to sell
23 them in order to be able to continue to drink and to expand it a little.
24 One of the main smugglers of weapons at that time was Srdjo Srdic and we
25 mentioned him. He was a deputy in the BH assembly and later in the
1 Serbian assembly and another person by the name of Darko Mrdja called Sula
2 he now owns a jewellery store in Prijedor and in Belgrade, as far as I
3 know. Srdjo Srdic and Darko Mrdja called Sula, sold weapons on behalf of
4 the Serb Democratic Party. And all of those who bought their weapons from
5 them later in the Omarska camp were liquidated.
6 Q. I want to talk to you now about the seizure of the relay on Mount
7 Kozara in your statement of November of 1994 which you told the judges
8 today was the most reliable because it was closest to the events, you say
9 that that relay was seized on 11 February, 1992, a very specific date. My
10 first question is this: How do you know about the seizure of this relay?
11 Where did you get the information about it? Where did you learn the
13 A. The date, I think, was taken by memory, but I think that it
14 actually happened a little earlier, but let's let it stand. Simply
15 speaking, the TV programme that we followed over that relay at the time
16 just disappeared. Luckily for us in Prijedor, we could also receive
17 programming over the Vlasic relay and not only over the Kozara relay, so
18 many people turned their antennas towards the Vlasic relay. We could see
19 that people from Yutel which is a TV agency which broadcast its programme
20 from Sarajevo protested and said that the Kozara relay was under the
21 control of Serbian soldiers, and that they were being prevented from
22 transmitting or broadcasting their pictures to Bosnia, throughout Bosnia,
23 and a large part of Croatia.
24 I went to the Kozara relay several hundred times before that and
25 in contacts with the editor-in-chief in Sarajevo, I was tasked with trying
1 to go to the relay with my crew to report about what was going on there.
2 The public didn't know who actually took control of the relay. I went to
3 the SUP, to the security service, and together with Milos Jankovic, the
4 man who used to be my boss and who used to be the coding and communication
5 centre chief, and whose equipment was actually there at the relay, so
6 together with the TV equipment.
7 So we tried to get in touch by telephone with the crew up there,
8 with the people who worked, the technicians who worked at the relay, who
9 serviced the relay. However, the person who picked up the phone had a
10 very rough voice. He said he was a captain and that his army, his
11 military unit, had taken control of the relay, and we asked him could we
12 come up there and tape a report about them? And they said no. More or
13 less, he said that anybody who sets out in the direction of the relay at
14 this time is a dead man. So we didn't later -- Serb newspapers from Banja
15 Luka and the Serb television announced that the Kozara relay was taken
16 over by Milinkovic. I don't know what his first name is, Milinkovic. He
17 was a commander of a Serb paramilitary unit from the area of Prnjavor
18 which is a town close to Banja Luka. Their war nickname was Vukovi S
19 Vucjaka, the wolves from Vucjak, that's the Vucjak mountain. I'm trying
20 to help the interpreters.
21 Q. In your 1994 statement to the Prosecutor at page 17 that's exactly
22 what you said, that the relay was seized by the wolves of Vucjak with
23 Milinovic as their captain. I want to go back now to your statements to
24 the German authorities and just see if you can help me understand this.
25 What -- the statement to the German authorities says that you said
1 this --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Page?
3 MR. ACKERMAN: March, 1992.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Page, Mr. Ackerman?
5 MR. ACKERMAN: It's page 3 of the English version and document --
6 it's 00655982 is the ERN number at the top 25 through 30 March of 1994 is
7 when it indicates that it was taken.
8 Q. On page 3 it says, "In March, 1992, I broadcast over RTV Sarajevo
9 for the last time." Is that a true statement?
10 A. Sometime in late 1991, already our TV studio, the large TV centre
11 in Banja Luka, through which we sent in our feed to Sarajevo, was taken
12 over by people from the Serb Democratic Party in Banja Luka. And that
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sivac, I hate to stop you but try to answer the
15 question. It's a very simple question. You were being asked whether what
16 you state in your statement --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: -- is a true statement or not. Finish. That's it.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is, that's correct.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: So next question, Mr. Ackerman.
21 MR. ACKERMAN:
22 Q. Right after that it then says that you said this: "It is correct
23 that the transmitter in Kozara was taken over by paramilitary units
24 (Chetniks) from Lamovita, Bisurica, and Omarska, with the support of
25 special units in Banja Luka. This must have occurred between 21 and 28
1 March, 1992. Paramilitary units that did this are not the same as the
2 so-called "Wolves." Is that what you told the German authorities?
3 A. Again, I would like to protest. The statement given to the German
4 authorities was absolutely badly translated. It's been taken out of
5 context. Like I said, that statement that I provided to them, I never had
6 a chance to look at totally.
7 Q. My only question is: Is this what you told them? Did you tell
8 them what I just quoted to you?
9 A. No. I didn't say anything like that. I was decisive and specific
10 and I said that this was committed by the wolves from Vucjak and it was
11 done with the assistance of certain paramilitary units from the area of
12 Lamovita and Omarska. And I insisted that they put down that this was
13 done by the wolves from Vucjak and here it says something but that's not
14 quite it.
15 Q. How is it that the German authorities got this all so wrong?
16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, that calls for speculation from the
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Koumjian.
19 MR. ACKERMAN:
20 Q. If you know, how is it they got it wrong?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you answer that question, Mr. Sivac. If you
22 can't, just say I'm not in a position to answer. If you can, answer it.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the reasons. Probably
24 it was a bad interpreter. Like I said, that woman had difficulty in
25 speaking my language.
1 MR. ACKERMAN:
2 Q. Did you tell them that the takeover happened between 21 and 28
3 March, 1992? Did you say that?
4 A. I don't know. I don't remember.
5 Q. Eight months later, after you talked to the German authorities,
6 you then talked to the OTP, and it was that statement in which you said
7 that it was taken over on 11 February, 1992. Where did you get that
8 precise date from, 11 February, 1992?
9 A. I don't know. Probably I recalled that date. I located it to be
10 on that date. But...
11 Q. Then I'm curious about this: You've told us that your best memory
12 is that which is closest to the events, that being your statement of
13 1994. In 2001, in a telephone conversation with an OTP investigator by
14 the name of Malik you said, "The transmitter was not taken over in
15 February of 1992 but in the fall of 1991."
16 My question is: What caused you in 2001, seven years later, to so
17 dramatically change the story that you were telling in 1994?
18 A. I provided a slightly more detailed explanation at the time to
19 Tariq Malik. The security of the Kozara relay at that time, in the autumn
20 of 1991, was entrusted to Serbs. A Serb was in charge of the relay
21 security. And I assume that already at that time the Kozara relay was
22 practically in the hands of the Serbs. Later, it came out that this was
23 actually true, when these wolves from Vucjak came to take over the relay,
24 nobody put up any resistance, even though the people, the security people
25 there at the relay were armed. So it was all already agreed upon.
1 Again, I repeat, I spoke with Mr. Tariq Malik often without an
2 interpreter, so please, all those parts of my statement that I provided to
3 him without the presence of an interpreter, take note, because he does not
4 speak my language very well. So please take that with some reserve. I
5 would always object when he asked to take my statement, if I was
6 travelling in my car or if I was at work, and I would always ask him to
7 just do it sometimes when I was able to fully focus on that, because these
8 events happened a long time ago, 11 years ago, so I needed time to collect
9 myself and to recall. Sometimes I forget my date of birth.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And my name.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: How much longer do you have?
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I would say half an hour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Half an hour. So may I suggest a short break of
15 about ten minutes maximum?
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Because in any case, we've been sitting for an hour
18 and a half. Ten minutes, if that's okay with you. And then we try to
19 finish, okay? Thank you.
20 --- Recess taken at 1.02 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 1.19 p.m.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. [Microphone not activated].
23 MR. ACKERMAN:
24 Q. Sir, I want to ask you a few questions now about your contention
25 that you saw Mr. Brdjanin in Omarska, and first I want to talk a little
1 bit about your knowledge of Mr. Brdjanin. In one of your telephone
2 interviews with the Prosecutor, 12 December of 2001, you apparently were
3 asked about your knowledge of Brdjanin and you said you first encountered
4 him in 1988 or 1989. Then you said that the next time you saw him was the
5 end of 1990 or beginning of 1991, and according to the report of that
6 interview, you said, "I saw, end of 1990, early 1991, I saw that he was
7 occupying a high level position in Banja Luka." Tell us what was that
8 high level position.
9 A. Let me tell you again, this stems from the interview or a
10 conversation I had with Tariq Malik, I believe. And again, I apologise to
11 Mr. Tariq Malik but he doesn't know my language very well, it seems to me,
12 he speaks it poorly.
13 Q. Is it your position that you did not say that? That will end it
14 if you just tell me that.
15 A. Yes. Some of it is true. Your client, Mr. Brdjanin, I met many,
16 many years ago, perhaps he remembers that.
17 Q. Is it true that in the end of 1990 or early 1991, you saw that he
18 was occupying a high level position in Banja Luka? Is that true or not
20 A. I think that this was true.
21 Q. What was that?
22 A. I don't know exactly at that time what his position was but in the
23 Serb Democratic Party, he was at a high position.
24 Q. Well, when you say you saw that he was occupying a high level
25 position, how did you see that?
1 A. I believe it was according to newspaper articles, things that I
2 saw in Banja Luka television, according to press clippings that I read in
3 the Banja Luka press.
4 Q. In your 1994 statement to the Prosecutor at page 34 of the English
5 version, describing the delegation visit to Omarska, you say in that
6 statement that it happened about the 28th of July. Correct?
7 A. Yes. I said that, around or about the 28th, in the first instance
8 I couldn't remember the exact date. That's why I said around or about,
9 but later on, when I linked all the events I realised that it had happened
10 earlier than that.
11 Q. Well, the linking of events you're talking about was the stories
12 about a delegation from Banja Luka visiting Prijedor, and the newspaper
13 article that does have a date. Is that the linking you're talking about?
14 A. No. A newspaper article, I saw it here for the first time, but
15 all what I spoke about in 1994, I spoke according to my memory, to my
16 recollection. It is possible that I have missed the date of the exact
17 visit, that I have -- I have dated it to be, to have happened in the month
18 of July and I stand by that. And I said about because I was not sure
19 about the exact date.
20 Q. Well, when you said "about the 28th of July," you certainly were
21 indicating that it was near the end of July, weren't you?
22 A. Let me tell you again, Alma Qureshi who was the interpreter, she
23 was interpreting the statement, and she -- I don't think that during the
24 giving the statement I could have made so many mistakes. I think I have
25 said about the 17th or the 18th and she had said around the 28th.
1 Mr. Ackerman, let me tell --
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... You're now blaming the
3 translator again?
4 A. Six years later I received that statement and some, many, I mean
5 some things in that statement I don't agree with the translation, the way
6 that it's been translated. There are problems, mistakes with the dates,
7 and in the pronouns. I was speaking in third person singular and the lady
8 interpreting was interpreting in the first person singular, but again this
9 doesn't influence the crux of my statement, the essence of my statement.
10 Q. So you're saying that the translation from the 1994 statement is
11 poor in many places? Is that your position?
12 A. Not in many places but there are mistakes and they are appearing
13 now. Last time, in the previous trials, I have also asked for some things
14 in that statement to be corrected, and as I said, the first time I saw the
15 statement was six years later.
16 Q. Didn't they read it back to you once it was completed in 1994 and
17 didn't you sign the bottom of every page saying that it was correct?
18 A. Yes. At that time, I was read the first few pages, and because
19 the investigator stayed with me a long time, I thought that the rest of
20 the text would not contain such major mistakes. I signed but then it
21 turned out later that there were mistakes, mistakes in dates, mistakes in
22 pronoun, in cases and so on.
23 Q. So you missed those mistakes when it was read back to you
24 initially? You didn't notice them?
25 A. No. In 1994, what was read to me was only the first few pages of
1 my statement. As I said, because the investigators were in a hurry
2 because another person was waiting to give a statement, so in a nonchalant
3 way I said, I believe that you will do a good job of it and -- because I
4 would never have said some things that are in the statement. When I was
5 explaining to the gentleman about us Muslims, Bosniaks, I said that we,
6 and I was speaking we, European Muslims, Bosnian Muslims, we would even
7 drink alcohol or eat pork. And she interpreted that in the first person
8 singular, as if I was the one who was drinking alcohol, I was the one who
9 was eating pork. So this is just one -- one stupid mistake.
10 Q. Well, I'm looking at that statement and there is a document at the
11 back of that statement. The first part of it is called "Witness
12 acknowledgement." What that says is, "This statement has been read over
13 to me in the blank language and is true to the best of my knowledge and
14 recollection." Then it appears to have your signature and a date.
15 Underneath that, sir, is an interpreter's certification for
16 Alma Qureshi. Alma Qureshi says that she has been informed that you speak
17 and understand the Bosnian language and that she orally translated the
18 above statement from English to the Bosnian language in the presence of
19 Nusret Sivac who appeared to have heard and understood my translation of
20 this statement. Nusret Sivac has acknowledged that the facts and matters
21 set out in his statement as translated by me are true to the best of his
22 knowledge and recollection and accordingly signed his signature where
24 Now, I'm going to have the usher show this to you so you can tell
25 us if that's your signature that appears on it.
1 A. Yes, yes. I said that I had signed. Yes, this is my signature,
2 of course I said that I had signed. But as I said, only first few pages
3 have been translated back to me. I didn't wait because it would have
4 lasted a long time to translate everything else. And I believe that
5 everything was fine and done correctly but here you go, there are some
6 problems, as I can see, and last time there were too.
7 Q. So when you signed a statement saying that the entire statement
8 had been translated to you, that was incorrect, wasn't it?
9 A. Well, it wasn't incorrect. I mean I said -- I didn't -- when I
10 signed, I didn't realise what consequences would have resulted from this.
11 I mean, more or less. I thought that this was all correct.
12 Q. More importantly, let's talk about Alma Qureshi who said that she
13 read the entire statement back to you in the Bosnian language and that you
14 said that you understood it. Now, why would she not tell the truth and
15 sign a statement that's not the truth?
16 A. I don't know. I don't know. That's her problem. And it's also
17 my problem because I didn't understand at the time that it was that
18 important for me to look over everything. As I said, I believed at the
19 time I believed, I believed Ms. Qureshi who did it and the gentleman from
20 the Tribunal. That's my fault, my -- my mistake, my error. But the
21 essence of my statement is correct. The essence is what I have said in
22 the statement and I stand by that.
23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... You're just making this up
24 about not having been read to you and you not having understood the
25 mistakes in 1994 so that you can give different testimony now and make it
1 sound plausible? Isn't that what you're doing?
2 A. No. No, sir, in earlier trials I said I was dissatisfied with the
3 translation of my statement in some segments and I stand by that. Yes.
4 Q. I take it you have no idea why an official interpreter would sign
5 a false statement regarding this matter?
6 A. I don't know, but that date, and even if I had said it, perhaps at
7 that time, at that moment, I said it wrongly and perhaps it was wrongly
8 translated. I don't remember. That was in 1994. That was eight, nine
9 years ago.
10 Q. Well, in that statement in 1994, you also said that the members of
11 the delegation were Brdjanin, Kupresanin, and Vukic. Do you remember
13 A. Yes. I remember that approximately.
14 Q. That was also incorrectly translated?
15 A. No. Perhaps I had said Kupresanin at the time, but I had made a
16 mistake thinking of someone else in the delegation. I had replaced Vojo
17 Kupresanin's name whom I knew very well and I had replaced Stojan
18 Zupljanin's name by Vojo Kupresanin. But everything else in this
19 statement stands.
20 Q. So now you're saying Kupresanin was not there?
21 A. No, no, he wasn't.
22 Q. Are you -- how about Predrag Radic? Was he there?
23 A. Yes, he was. Predrag Radic was there.
24 Q. You said when this group of people arrived, that inmates from all
25 the buildings were assembled outside, correct?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. Any exceptions to that? Was it all the inmates?
3 A. I don't know. From this northern side, I saw that almost all camp
4 prisoners were in front of their premises on the concrete plateau, on the
5 pista. Whether the camp prisoners from the so-called glass house were
6 taken out, I don't know. Where the women were at the same time, again, I
7 cannot recall that.
8 Q. After this delegation, it was a very short time, was it not, until
9 the journalists arrived?
10 A. No. Together with delegation there was also a group of reporters.
11 Q. No, I'm talking about -- I'm talking about the western
12 journalists, Penny Marshall, Vulliamy, those people, they arrived --
13 A. Long, long time. These days seemed to be like eternity to us. I
14 think these journalists arrived on the 5th of August, that's as far as I
15 can recall.
16 Q. Well, if this delegation you're talking about was there on 28
17 July, as you said initially in 1994, then --
18 MR. KOUMJIAN: I object. That misquotes, he said about the 28th
19 of July.
20 MR. ACKERMAN:
21 Q. About the 28th of July, as you said in 1994, then the journalists
22 who came would have come just a few days later, about a week, week to ten
23 days. Correct?
24 A. They arrived on the 5th of August.
25 Q. And then right after that, were you transferred to Trnopolje.
2 A. Yes, approximately, yes. There was a large group that was moved
3 or transferred to Manjaca.
4 Q. Now, before April of 2002, you made a number of statements to the
5 OTP, to German investigators, telephone conversations with Mr. Malik. You
6 spoke about these matters a great deal. On the 26th of April, 2002, you
7 had a telephone conversation with Mr. Koumjian, and that was the first
8 time that you made the assertion the delegation that visited Omarska was
9 led by Brdjanin. Now --
10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Excuse me, this might be a mistake. I've never
11 spoken on the telephone, that I recall, with Mr. Sivac.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: That's what the document says. Let me find it.
13 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm sorry, I do recall. I was in the room. There
14 was a Suellen Taylor and I was in the room, that's correct, with an
16 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.
17 Q. So that was the first time you made the assertion that the
18 delegation that visited Omarska was led by Brdjanin, wasn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you now deny your statement from 1994 where you said that
21 Vojo Kupresanin was there?
22 A. Well, no. I said that Vojo -- Brdjanin in my first statement, it
23 was certainly said that in the delegation there was Brdjanin too. But
24 Radic and Vojo Kupresanin too. But Vojo Kupresanin I didn't know him very
25 well so I had replaced him with Stojan Zupljanin who was the head of the
1 public security station at the time, and he was a member of the
3 Q. So now I'm confused. Is it your position that Vojo Kupresanin was
4 there or that he was not there?
5 A. No. I said earlier, Mr. Ackerman, that together with Radoslav
6 Brdjanin, Predrag Radic, Radislav Vukic, there was another person, and I
7 know very well, and I saw that on TV, and read in the newspaper, that the
8 main group, together with Radoslav Brdjanin, always in any political
9 instances, there was always Vojo Kupresanin and Radislav Vukic so I had
10 mixed up Radislav Vukic and -- sorry, I mean Vojo Kupresanin and
11 Stojan Zupljanin because Stojan Zupljanin I didn't know him very well.
12 Q. You still didn't answer my question. Is it your position that
13 Vojo Kupresanin was there or not?
14 A. No, no, he was not.
15 Q. Not there?
16 A. No, certainly, he was not there, no.
17 Q. In your testimony in Stakic, from 30 July, at page 6.640, you said
18 this: "At first I saw Radoslav Brdjanin with a group of collaborators who
19 were in power, and they were the most powerful people in the so-called
20 Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina." Who were these collaborators who
21 you refer to?
22 A. These were Radislav Vukic, Predrag Radic, and Stojan Zupljanin.
23 Q. On page 6.641, 30 July, Stakic, you made this reference to Meakic.
24 "And according to military custom, he reported to the President of the
25 Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina, Radoslav Brdjanin."
1 Now, where did you get the idea that Brdjanin was president of the
2 Autonomous Region of Krajina?
3 A. Well, I knew. I learned what his position was.
4 Q. Well, if it's the case that he was never the President of the
5 Autonomous Region of Krajina, would that surprise you?
6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Objection. Little relevance to the distinction.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him answer the question, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the
9 question? I'm a little confused.
10 MR. ACKERMAN:
11 Q. If it's the case that he was never the President of the Autonomous
12 Region of Krajina, would that surprise you?
13 A. No. He was that for sure, for certain. He was the President also
14 of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Banja Luka or Bosnian
15 Krajina, depending all on how people referred that in writing, whether
16 they were calling it area or a region.
17 Q. So you are certain that he was president of the Autonomous Region
18 of Krajina and you are as certain about that as you are about everything
19 else you've told us today, correct?
20 A. Well, no. When Mr. Brdjanin was in Omarska at the time, I was not
21 clear as to his actual position, but I then saw that he had been elected
22 precisely to be the President of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina
23 or something like that. You see, at the time that was the Serb
24 authorities that had created many autonomous areas, autonomous regions,
25 whatever you want to call them.
1 Q. Well, if you weren't clear, then please explain why you told the
2 judges in the Stakic case, referring to Meakic, that he reported to the
3 president of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina who was Radoslav
4 Brdjanin, why did you tell them that if you weren't clear about whether
5 that was true or not?
6 A. I said that at the time when he was coming to Omarska, that was
7 what his position was.
8 Q. Okay, and you're certain of that?
9 A. I am certain. I think that's what he was.
10 Q. And you're as certain of that as you are about the other things
11 you've told us today, aren't you?
12 A. I read in the press, I was not present when your client was
13 appointed. I don't know.
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Are you as certain of that as
15 you are of everything else you've told us today or not, just answer that,
16 yes or no?
17 A. Well, yes. I am certain that he was at a high position.
18 Q. Thank you. And you're certain -- and again I have to ask the
19 question: As certain of that as you are about all your other testimony
20 today? Yes or no?
21 A. Yes, yes, I am certain that he was at a high position.
22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... How was this person that you
23 believe was Brdjanin dressed in Omarska?
24 A. He was dressed in civilian clothes. I can't remember the
25 details. I know, sir, because for a long time, I followed the visits of
1 delegations and so on, and I know that the way that Radoslav Brdjanin was
2 greeted and welcomed, that was only done for people who were in a very
3 high position in authority.
4 Q. Didn't you say at one point that this was the only delegation that
5 ever visited Omarska?
6 A. That was the most important political delegation that came to
7 visit the Omarska camp. There were some other local political delegations
8 from the Prijedor area and from the Omarska area. These were of no
9 importance. So I don't have to mention them.
10 Q. Didn't you say at one point that this was the only delegation that
11 visited Omarska?
12 A. Yes. The most important. I think that's what I said, the most
13 important, the most official delegations. The other delegations turned up
14 spontaneously. They were not welcomed in any way.
15 Q. I didn't ask you that. My question is simple. Didn't you say at
16 one point that this was the only delegation that visited Omarska?
17 A. Yes. That's -- I think perhaps that's what I may have said.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm not going to finish. We are going
19 to have to take a little bit of time in the morning. I'm sorry, I tried.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Mr. Ackerman. I appreciate that. I
21 appreciate your efforts. We'll have to conclude now, today, and
22 unfortunately, Mr. Sivac, we need you again tomorrow morning, not for
23 long. You will be here for a few minutes, I suppose, unless there is a
24 long re-examination, which I don't anticipate, and after that, you can
25 travel back home.
1 I take it that tomorrow morning, we are -- so I suggest we start
2 at 9.00, as planned. I suggest also that we start with the witness so
3 that we finish with him as early as possible so that the Prosecution, or
4 together with the other officers of the Tribunal, can start making
5 arrangements for his flight, for his travel, and after that, we deal with
6 the organisational matters that we have. I take it we will not be sitting
7 in the afternoon unless there is a change in plan, because apparently
8 there is some problem with the next witness or I don't know exactly what
9 is happening but there is some problem.
10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Could I just assure Mr. Sivac, I know he's
11 concerned about his plans for Wednesday, that he will be leaving by at
12 least noon tomorrow, he'll be finished.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I anticipate Mr. Sivac that you won't be here
14 for more than 15 minutes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am here to do whatever.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you all, and we will reconvene
17 tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
19 1.49 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
20 the 14th day of January, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.