1 Tuesday, 14 January 2003
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you call
6 the case, please?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
10 Mr. Brdjanin, can you hear me in a language that you can
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I can
13 hear and understand you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down and good morning to
15 you. Appearances for the Prosecution?
16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Joanna Korner and Nicholas Koumjian assisted by
17 Ruth -- excuse me, Denise Gustin.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. Appearances for Radoslav
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman, I'm
21 with Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: What a better memory.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, he's not here all the time, I am. And it's
24 Happy New Year to people from Serbia and Republika Srpska and places like
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Good -- Happy New Year to all of
2 them too.
3 Now, I understand that there is some urgent matter you would like
4 to rise in closed session before we bring in the witness. Is that
5 correct? Private or --
6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Private.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Private, okay. So we go into private session,
9 [Private session]
13 Pages 12822-12830 – redacted – private session
21 [Open session]
22 WITNESS: NUSRET SIVAC [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good morning to you and sorry for this short
25 delay, but we needed to discuss something before we continued with and
1 finished with your testimony. Please repeat your solemn declaration once
2 more. Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. And, Mr. Ackerman,
6 hopefully will finish with you in a short while. Mr. Ackerman.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman: [Continued]
8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Sivac.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. I think we can finish rather quickly here this morning. Just a
11 few little brief things. In your 1994 statement to the Prosecutor, you
12 talked at length about the April 30th, 1992, takeover of Prijedor. And
13 one of the things you said in connection with that was: "Muslims and
14 Croats lost their jobs immediately." That's true, isn't it?
15 A. Yes. Most of the Muslims and Croats.
16 Q. With regard to Kozarac, in your statement to the German
17 authorities, you made this statement: "I heard from a reliable source
18 that of all the paramilitary units involved in the operation, the gypsy
19 Brigade under the leadership of a man known as Cigo from Omarska was said
20 to be the worst."
21 Do you stand by that statement?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. In that 1993 statement that you made in Zagreb, you're quoted as
24 saying this: "Apart from the persons mentioned, the paramilitary
25 formations that arrived from Slavonia and Banja, the so-called Arkan men,
1 Seselj men, and among others were particularly prominent in killing the
2 civilian population."
3 Is that a true statement?
4 A. Yes. Those units were very bloodthirsty too.
5 Q. How do you know that they were Arkan and Seselj men?
6 A. Well, we know. All of us know. All the inhabitants of Prijedor
7 know that these were paramilitary units of Zeljko Arkan and
8 Vojislav Seselj because they were characteristically dressed. And right
9 across the street from where I lived, where a friend of mine, a single man
10 lived, Ljubo Tumbas moved in. He was a hard core criminal from Serbia.
11 For a long time before 1992, he was serving a prison sentence for murder.
12 As he stayed in the building where my friend lived, across the
13 street, he said that quite openly, that he is a member of the units of
14 Zeljko Raznjatovic Arkan and that they had come to Prijedor to do the
15 dirtiest jobs, inter alia. This man, this human being, or rather this
16 inhumane being was called Ljubo Tumbas, and in Serbia in the
17 ex-Yugoslavia, he served long-term prison sentences because he had taken
18 part in several murders.
19 The kind of person I am, a principled person, I like to
20 investigate things, and I found this periodical called Ilustrovana
21 Politika from way back. And I found an article entitled "Ljubo Tumbas
22 Accused of a Murder of a Married Couple." Their last name was Tocilovac
23 [phoen], as far as I can remember.
24 Q. After you left Omarska, you went to Trnopolje. Did you see any
25 machine-guns in Trnopolje?
1 A. Well, all the guards who were at their guard posts were very well
2 armed. There was a variety of weapons, lighter machine-guns, heavier
3 machine-guns, automatic rifles, as we call them.
4 Q. Were there any what we could call machine-gun nests that you saw?
5 A. Well, yes. That's what we called these places.
6 Q. Can you just very briefly tell the Court where these were located
7 in Trnopolje.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you going to sustain a question without showing
9 the witness at least a diagram, a sketch, of the layout of Trnopolje?
10 Because --
11 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm hoping I don't have to go to that, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: If he's in a position to answer your question
13 without the need of -- without the help of a sketch, yes, please go
14 ahead. If you need a diagram sketch of the layout of the camp, tell us
15 and it can be dug up easily without any problems.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A diagram is not needed. Around the
17 camp of Trnopolje, when I arrived, there were several of these machine-gun
18 nests. This is where guards were and they were surrounded by sandbags.
19 They were at a certain distance from the Trnopolje camp. At guard post
20 number 1 - I have to tell you about this - a colleague of mine was on
21 guard duty. Before 1992, he worked with me as a journalist for ten
22 years. His name was Boro Grubic. Together with him, at guard post number
23 1 was another guard, Zoran Kneginic, also a colleague of mine from
25 Let me mention one more thing to the honourable Trial Chamber.
1 For us, the camp inmates who had come from Omarska and Keraterm, Trnopolje
2 was sheer salvation. It was a five-star hotel for us, and I'll tell you
3 why. At the guard posts around the camp of Trnopolje there were guards
4 who were actually our acquaintances from Prijedor. After all, these were
5 men that we knew well and they knew us well. It wasn't --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you satisfied with the answer, Mr. Ackerman? Do
7 we have to go through all this or do you have a further question to ask.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: I have one more question.
9 Q. How many of these machine-gun nests would you say there were?
10 A. Well, I'm going to say the following: The approximate number of
11 machine-gun nests, as far as I could see, because I could not walk around
12 the entire camp of Trnopolje, as far as I can remember, there were three.
13 One guard post or as we call it this machine-gun nest was at the very
14 crossroads of the roads by Trnopolje, the road that comes from Garevci and
15 goes towards the railway station. That was guard post number 2.
16 Cedo Mandic often stood guard there, a retired policeman, and he was very
17 rough on us. There were some other guards --
18 Q. Mr. Sivac, my only question was how many, how many that you saw,
19 not who stood guard there or -- how many.
20 A. Three, three guard posts.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question, Mr. Ackerman.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: That's all I have, thank you.
23 Q. I want to go back now to this delegation that you claim to have
24 seen in Omarska. I want to ask you about Srdjo Srdic. Was he present in
25 this that group?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you see Srdjo Srdic in Omarska more than that one time?
3 A. No, I saw him only then.
4 Q. You told us yesterday that you first said Kupresanin was a member
5 of the delegation because you had gotten him confused with
6 Stojan Zupljanin. Isn't that what you said?
7 A. Well, I've already said that I've confused Stojan Zupljanin with
8 Kupresanin. Actually, I knew Stojan Zupljanin very superficially [As
9 interpreted], very well [Realtime transcript read in error "very well"],
10 and I confused him with Kupresanin. Vojo Kupresanin was not in Omarska at
12 MR. KOUMJIAN: I want to get a clarification of the translation.
13 It was translated I knew Stojan Zupljanin superficially, very well --
14 okay, but I see the transcript doesn't have that any way.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. But you've said it now.
16 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't think that's what the witness said but I'm
17 not sure.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: We are going there, Mr. Koumjian.
19 Q. You worked for SUP for quite some time, didn't you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In connection with that work, you must have known Stojan
23 A. No, sir. On the 1st of January, 1990, I left the security service
24 and I only devoted myself to my duties as a journalist. Stojan Zupljanin,
25 I don't know when he came to head the police in Banja Luka.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. The person who you saw at Omarska, who you said you confused with
2 Kupresanin but really was Stojan Zupljanin, was that person wearing a
3 police uniform?
4 A. No. In civilian clothes.
5 Q. You know that Zupljanin would have been wearing a police uniform,
6 don't you?
7 A. No. I don't know if he ever wore a police uniform but I know that
8 at that time he wore civilian clothes, and that's what led to the
10 Q. Didn't the police always wear police uniforms?
11 A. Yes. Policemen, but their high officials, very seldom.
12 Q. Do you have any reason to try to protect Vojo Kupresanin?
13 A. No, none whatsoever. I don't wish to protect that person at all,
14 nor do I have any reason to do that.
15 Q. You told us yesterday that you met Mr. Brdjanin for the first time
16 in 1988. Correct?
17 A. I don't know how this was translated, but I'll tell you something.
18 As I worked as a journalist during --
19 Q. Sir my question is: Did you first meet him in 1988 or not.
20 That's my only question.
21 A. Yes, perhaps even earlier.
22 Q. Were you in Croatia during any part of 1988?
23 A. 1988? No, no, never.
24 Q. So you didn't see Mr. Brdjanin in Croatia in 1988?
25 A. No, no. I never said that.
1 Q. You claim to have met him in Banja Luka?
2 A. Well, it's not in Banja Luka that I saw him. As far as I can
3 remember, my first contact with him was in Celinac where this accused
4 person of yours was head of a construction company. It was before 1998 --
5 1988, I think.
6 Q. All right. When you claim to have seen Mr. Brdjanin in Omarska,
7 did you have a chance to observe him well?
8 A. Very well.
9 Q. Do you have in your mind as you sit there, in your mind's eye,
10 right now, a mental picture of that scene where you saw Mr. Brdjanin in
12 A. Well, let me tell you, sir, this kind of face that Brdjanin has is
13 one that a person memorises, remembers for a long time.
14 Q. My question was, do you have a mental picture in your mind as you
15 sit here today of that scene where you saw Mr. Brdjanin?
16 A. I do, I do. I do have that picture, very well so.
17 Q. In that picture, what is he wearing?
18 A. I don't remember now what he was wearing. I --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: You put the question yesterday, Mr. Ackerman, and he
20 answered it. He said that he was wearing civilian clothes and that's it.
21 He couldn't remember anything else.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I was trying to help him with his memory,
23 Your Honour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: You think that today maybe you can the witness to --
25 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yesterday, he remembers more? Come on. Next
3 MR. ACKERMAN:
4 Q. When the foreign journalists came to Omarska, you told us
5 yesterday that certain people were hidden from those journalists. Who
6 were the people who were hidden from the journalists?
7 A. Dr. Esad Sadikovic was hidden from the journalists.
8 Q. Who else? Anybody?
9 A. No, only Dr. Esad Sadikovic, as far as I know on the basis of the
10 place where I was.
11 Q. So it was very well known throughout the Omarska camp that foreign
12 journalists had been there?
13 A. No. We didn't know at that time, on that day. We didn't know why
14 we were detained in those premises almost the entire day or during the
15 entire morning, and we were not supposed to show any sign of life, only
16 much later sir that I realise what this was all about. You have a
17 videotape which was used in previous trials, Simo Drljaca, Zeljko Meakic,
18 and these gentlemen were taking the journalists around and explaining
19 things to them, saying that the conditions in the Omarska camp were very
20 humane, and that due to the security and safety of the journalists --
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... First question I asked you
22 about this was who: Were the people that were hidden from the
23 journalists? And you said only one person was, Sadikovic. Now you're
24 saying that you were and another large group of people were. Several of
25 you didn't see them. What I want to know is: Who are the people that did
1 not see the journalists? Can you describe them in any way?
2 A. Sir, I don't know. You're trying to confuse me totally and I am
3 very clear. Dr. Eso Sadikovic was taken into a separate room where he was
4 hidden, whereas all the other inmates were also locked up in the rooms
5 where they were staying except for one group of inmates who were in the
6 hangar and they were supposed to run by the journalists and go to this
7 other infamous place. All of us were hidden. We were all hidden in the
8 premises of the Omarska camp.
9 Q. Now, I suspect that very shortly after that visit, everybody in
10 the camp knew that foreign journalists had been there, didn't they?
11 A. Well, approximately that's what we heard, that foreign journalists
12 were there.
13 Q. Yesterday, you said that after the visit of the foreign
14 journalists, the guards changed their attitude and those of you who didn't
15 see the foreign journalists couldn't understand why they were acting
16 differently. That's what you said, right?
17 A. No, sir. I said that none of us then saw any foreign
18 journalists. We just noticed that the guards completely changed their
19 attitude towards us for a day or two.
20 Q. I want to ask you now about your meeting with Krkan, that meeting
21 in which you say he told you that everyone at Omarska was intended for
22 liquidation. You recall that conversation?
23 A. Yes, very well.
24 Q. When did it take place?
25 A. Well, sometime in mid-July.
1 Q. And you left the camp early August, right?
2 A. Well, yes. That's it, the 6th or 7th of August, I think.
3 Q. Now, if it's true that everyone in Omarska was intended for
4 liquidation, why is it they weren't all killed? The guards had plenty of
5 guns, there were plenty of people around there who could have killed you
6 all. Why didn't that happen?
7 A. I don't know about that. That question should be put to the
8 persons who are accused here and those who will come here in the future,
9 like Zeljko Meakic and the other persons who were in charge of the Omarska
11 Q. Well, isn't it the case that you're just making up that statement
12 of Krkan that you were all intended for liquidation? Isn't that the
14 A. No. That is nothing but the truth. Krkan and I were together for
15 so long that he could not but tell me the truth so that I would know what
16 situation I was in and so that I could somehow try to get out of it.
17 Q. You were in the same room at Omarska with Dr. Sadikovic, weren't
19 A. Yes, for a long time.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... You told us yesterday that he
21 would occasionally be called out to treat someone, even guards, because
22 the guards would occasionally hurt each other?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. And is it the case that each time he was called out, that
25 everybody in the room would thank him for all he had done?
1 A. No.
2 Q. The last time he was called out, you told us yesterday that you
3 thought again they were taking him out to help somebody, to treat
4 somebody. Correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. But you also said that you all thanked him for all he had done.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait, wait, wait. He explained it yesterday. He
8 said that he was also told to pick up all his belongings and take them
9 with him and that sent a message to all the other inmates that something
10 different was going to happen that day. And that's why they thanked him
11 and saluted him and whatever. He gave that explanation yesterday,
12 Mr. Ackerman.
13 MR. ACKERMAN:
14 Q. So that's different?
15 A. No. It's the way the Presiding Judge described it, Mr. Ackerman.
16 Q. Then why did you tell us that you thought they were taking him
17 again to help somebody? Why did you say that if you saw different?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't answer the question. Because he gave you two
19 answers yesterday.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I won't answer it.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: He said yesterday that his impression that first
22 they thought this was normal routine, but suddenly they discovered it
23 wasn't because he was asked to pick up his belongings. So let's move to
24 the next question, Mr. Ackerman.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I say something?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, sir.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please. I'm sorry, but,
3 Mr. Ackerman, you are becoming increasingly unfair I'm sorry I really have
4 to tell you that.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sivac, please don't address Mr. Ackerman like
6 that. You address the Chamber, ask the three judges up here and not
7 Mr. Ackerman directly, as you did.
8 Mr. Ackerman please proceed.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
10 MR. ACKERMAN:
11 Q. You described yesterday seeing Mr. Brdjanin on television with
12 Srdjo Srdic, and what you told us yesterday was that you remember that he
13 congratulated the Prijedor Crisis Staff for a job well done, that they had
14 cleansed very well. And that he had said with regard to Muslims, their
15 pants will shake with fear.
16 Now, in every statement you have ever given which are numerous and
17 in every testimony you have ever given, which are numerous, you have never
18 said this before yesterday, have you?
19 A. No, no. On several occasions, I gave very long statements and
20 this was a summary of the most important events that took place. If I
21 were to describe all the details I remember concerning what happened in
22 1992, I think that it would be a book or rather it would consist of
23 several volumes, and that I would talk to the investigators much, much
24 longer, and they asked me to focus only on the most important details.
25 Q. Yes. And one of the things they asked to you focus on was your
1 knowledge of Mr. Brdjanin, and you never told them what you said here
2 yesterday, did you?
3 A. Well, no, because nobody asked me about Mr. Brdjanin. I mean
4 that. How long I knew him --
5 Q. Nobody asked you about Mr. Brdjanin? Do you want to see the -- do
6 you want to see the statements, the telephone conversations, where you
7 were specifically asked: What do you know about Mr. Brdjanin? What can
8 you tell us about Mr. Brdjanin? Would you like to see those?
9 A. At that moment, I said what I knew and what was in my mind. But
10 no one insisted on any such details.
11 Q. Let me ask you finally, sir, have you ever been diagnosed with or
12 treated for any kind of a mental illness or condition?
13 A. Yes. Once, during recreation, I fell and broke my leg. I had a
14 double fracture as a matter of fact, and this was the only time in my life
15 that I had any kind of treatment. So the answer is no, never.
16 Q. I think maybe the question was misinterpreted or something. I
17 asked you about a mental illness or condition, not physical.
18 A. No, Mr. Ackerman. What do you think, that I'm a mental patient?
19 Q. I have no idea. I just asked you the question. Thank you very
20 much. I'm finished.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
22 Is there re-examination, Mr. Koumjian?
23 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Sivac, that brings us to an end. There are
25 no further questions. On behalf of the Tribunal, I would like to thank
1 you for having accepted to come over and once more give evidence in a
2 trial here in The Hague. The usher will now escort you out of this
3 courtroom and you will be assisted, given all the assistance you require
4 to enable you to return home. I thank you once more and have a safe
5 journey back home.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, if I could be excused at this time.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly.
10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Mr. Sivac probably wants to speak to me.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally, Mr. Koumjian, before you leave, before
12 Mr. Sivac started giving evidence yesterday, you mentioned at one point
13 some video which you said you weren't quite sure whether you were going to
14 tender it in evidence or not.
15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. I want to tender all of the exhibits
16 that were mentioned in Mr. Sivac's testimony and the transcript.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: That was the second points I was going to come to,
18 to give them the proper number.
19 MR. KOUMJIAN: With the help of Ruth -- I mean Ms. Gustin I have
20 the following list: In the Stakic case, S238 which was the article about
21 the visit of the delegation to Prijedor and the collection centres, as it
22 states in the article, may that be marked P1547/S238? And it's also
23 S242-4. The reason that in order to show the date we have both the -- we
24 have a reduced picture of the whole page so that the date appears.
25 Another article on another page, visits -- Visit Krajina
1 Representatives in Prijedor, may that be marked P1547/S239[S242-1]. And
2 then we had a photograph, the one that was shown yesterday during
3 Mr. Sivac's testimony of the Omarska camp that he had drawn where the
4 prisoners stood during the delegation marked his own location, may that be
6 The video that was played and is referred to in his transcript is,
7 I believe, only about two minutes long and it's an interview with
8 Dr. Stakic concerning the attack on Kozarac and he refers to what the
9 military called the cleansing or "ciscenje" of Kozarac. May that be
10 marked P1547/S240-1? Let me repeat that, 1547/S240-1.
11 There is a large map that's previously been marked. It was S14 in
12 the Stakic trial and in this trial, just for the record, it's P1127. And
13 then we would also be moving in a decision of the executive board of
14 Prijedor regarding destruction of a large number of buildings and
15 residences that was referred to in the transcript. May that be marked
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Is there any objection on the part of
18 the Defence to the admission of any of these documents?
19 MR. ACKERMAN: No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman. So they are so being
21 admitted and -- thank you. I think if you have got no further business
22 here, Mr. Koumjian, you are relieved and you can go back to the rest of
23 your work.
24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Now, administrative matters.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, a large number arise out of Your
2 Honour's rulings in respect of the Rule 92 matters. I don't know that
3 I've got all the rulings with me but can I deal with them in order but --
4 first of all, Rule 92 bis witness 7.173, Mr. Ackerman agreed it subject to
5 the -- being given the name of the doctor. We are -- we obtained that
6 name and we are prepared to give it to him. So unless there is any other
7 aspect, perhaps that -- Mr. Ackerman can confirm that he's happy for that
8 witness to be accepted under Rule 92.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman?
10 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, that's fine, Your Honour. The condition has
11 been satisfied.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: So this one is settled.
13 MS. KORNER: Yes. Then, Your Honour, Witness 7.35.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I wanted to address that myself.
15 MS. KORNER: Yes. Now, Your Honour, you ruled that as
16 Mr. Ackerman required him for cross-examination, he had to come. Your
17 Honour, I intend to go back -- well, I'm just going to remind Your Honour
18 that the original ruling that Your Honours made said that reasons had to
19 be given, not just the demand to cross-examine. Can I put it this way?
20 It may be that we've dealt with it. I have addressed the matter with
21 Mr. Ackerman. We are prepared to redact the parts that he requested, and
22 again I would just like confirmation that in those circumstances, he would
23 agree that that witness can be dealt with under Rule 92.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that was the points I was going to raise myself
1 Mr. Ackerman? Granted that the Prosecution will redact the
2 transcripts as requested, would you still require the witness for
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour I'm having what we euphemistically call
5 at times a senior moment. I don't remember who 7.35 is.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: You had, and I'm quoting directly from you in
7 quotes, "No objection to the admission of the transcript if the redactions
8 requested are agreed."
9 MR. ACKERMAN: I understand that. I just need to have somebody
10 tell me the name.
11 MS. KORNER: He's BT-42.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: That doesn't help either.
13 MS. KORNER: Okay. He's the witness who testified at length in
14 Stakic and --
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay, I know who it is now. Yes, that's fine.
16 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: So you will be redacting as requested?
18 MS. KORNER: We will be redacting as requested.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness will not be required for
21 MS. KORNER: No.
22 Next, Witness 7.208. Again, Your Honour ruled that she had to be
23 called for cross-examination. I regret to tell Your Honours she declines
24 to attend for cross-examination. The result is that we are going to
25 replace her evidence with another witness, 7.110, to call live.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So 7.208, there is no transcript, in other words she
2 will not be with us.
3 MS. KORNER: She won't attend for cross-examination.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And instead you will be calling live 7.110?
5 MS. KORNER: That's right.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman?
8 MS. KORNER: I don't think he can help. It's his computer.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Just to make note of it. Yes?
10 MS. KORNER: Sorry, I thought -- Ms. Gustin was just reminding me
11 something about it. Then, can I come next to one of the Novi witnesses?
12 The point was made rightly by Mr. Ackerman 7.147, that we had not got a 92
13 bis, and that's correct. We omitted or rather we didn't notice when we
14 put it in because it was a change there, that he hadn't been seen or the
15 statement hadn't been read back to him. Now the problem that arises is
16 this and we seek Your Honour's guidance.
17 The registry, understandably, are most reluctant to send officers
18 out just to do one 92 bis statement because of the expense. There are two
19 alternatives, and it's really for Mr. Ackerman to agree. We can see if
20 the witness can be taken before a local judge by an investigator, have the
21 statement read back to him, have him attest to the truth of its contents.
22 Whether the procedures comply with the law of the particular country, I
23 don't know, and it would -- it would take sometime to find out. Or
24 alternatively, one of the ways of doing it is that it's accepted without
25 the rule -- by an investigator making a declaration to the fact that the
1 statement has been translated back to him, and he agrees it. Now, I am in
2 the hands of the Court, otherwise we will have to put in a formal request
3 for the registry to send a presiding officer out.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you have to say about that, Mr. Ackerman?
5 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the rule specifically contemplates
6 that these attestations for Rule 92 bis purposes may be made by local
7 officials under the law of the place where the declaration is made. I've
8 always wondered why the registry spends money to send people out to do
9 this because it makes no sense. It can be done locally. So I'm perfectly
10 willing to have it done locally by whatever the law, whatever the country
11 is requires. In the U.S., it would be a ten-minute process with a notary
12 public. I don't know what it would be in other places. But I think it's
13 silly to have the registry sending people out to perform these tasks in
14 the first place, but I would not be content with having some investigator
15 certify it.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I take the point, and Mr. Ackerman is
17 right. The same would be in England, you just go before a lawyer and get
18 it sworn. Regrettably, it isn't -- in the particular country, I know it's
19 not as simple as that. But in the event -- if we do that, can I take it
20 that subject to that, Mr. Ackerman will accept it? Because I'm not going
21 to waste time going through this procedure if Mr. Ackerman at the end of
22 the day says, no, he won't accept it anyhow and we have to call the
24 JUDGE AGIUS: The possibility is envisaged by the regulations by
25 the rules, and it's an alternative --
1 MS. KORNER: No, no, Your Honour. I'm saying that but in this
2 particular country it isn't as simple as that. I know that.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know.
4 MS. KORNER: I do, though. For obvious reasons, I'm not
5 disclosing the country. Therefore all I'm saying is we will undertake
6 that procedure provided that that's all that Mr. Ackerman's complaint is.
7 If at the end of that he still says, I want the witness, then I will
8 simply - if I decide to call the witness - have the witness here.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Can we go along with that?
10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think it's -- it should be implicit
11 in number 4 of my response that that's my position, that it's the lack of
12 the 92 bis statement that I'm concerned about.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
14 MS. KORNER: Yes. The -- well the obvious -- the next question is
15 really in relation to tomorrow's witness. Mr. Ackerman said that unless
16 he had a chance to read the war diary, he was going to object to the
17 witness being called. But can I take it that that's gone now because we
18 have an extra day, thank you very much.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Tomorrow's witness will take how long?
20 MS. KORNER: I would think he will take two days in chief, simply
21 because he's going to go through videos.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you think we will finish with him this week?
23 MS. KORNER: No. I see Mr. Ackerman shaking his head.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: It's unlikely, Your Honour. I think I would have
25 at least two days of cross.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: But if that's the case, please do tell him.
2 MS. KORNER: He knows.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
4 MS. KORNER: He's aware of that, Your Honour. The only thing that
5 I will put back is Mr. Mayhew, who was due to attend on Friday, but I'll
6 ask him if he can attend on Monday instead.
7 Your Honour, this is really, as it were, a forewarning. The
8 Stakic Defence case, as Your Honour knows, has started. And in the course
9 of it, they called a witness who was a secretary to the Omarska camp or
10 working in the Omarska camp. In the course of her evidence, she gave
11 relevant evidence relating to this trial, direct evidence, and so we will
12 be applying to call her in this case. It relates obviously to Prijedor.
13 In addition to that, the likelihood is, and I'm just having -- we are
14 having another check -- but another Defence witness who testified, who
15 doesn't give direct evidence in respect of the defendant but it is
16 relevant evidence to this case we will be seeking to put the transcript in
17 under Rule 92, but that hasn't happened. I'm just giving prior notice of
19 Now, Your Honour, in respect of a potential expert witness, can I
20 ask to go into private session on this?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session, please, as well
22 I had the intention of raising an issue here, but I suppose you will be
23 doing that yourself because it's quite obvious.
24 [Private session]
13 Pages 12854-12857 – redacted – private session
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: There is another matter which I would like to signal
3 to you, that is the motion that you filed sometime back, Ms. Korner,
4 asking -- requesting judicial notice be taken of certain matters. As a
5 response, the Defence had suggested introducing statements via the 92 bis
6 procedure, instead of us taking judicial notice of the facts. You had
7 at -- if my memory does not fail me, you had indicated that -- in court
8 during particular sitting that you had not taken the Rule 92 bis route
9 because the witness -- witnesses would not be available for
11 MS. KORNER: That's absolutely right. Your Honour. We didn't
12 feel -- we've always taken the view that we can't Rule 92 bis when we know
13 in advance the witnesses won't attend.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. Now, the situation could change radically
15 if the Defence addresses this question in particular, and indicates
16 whether they would be asking for cross-examination.
17 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour that's absolutely right. May I say
18 this? I suppose in one sense that of course would be the pragmatic
19 answer, and I'm not going to say -- but this rule has been sitting there
20 forever. So far, nobody has made a ruling under Rule 94 to say that there
21 will be adjudicated facts. It does seem to us that this is a classic case
22 for somebody finally to rule because what possible interest can it be to
23 the defendant or to the accused that when he's not directly named, when
24 calling these witnesses to give that evidence again, were it possible,
25 would elicit no doubt the same evidence again that there were these
2 And so we were anxious to have a ruling and for somebody finally
3 to say, "Here is the classic case of an application of Rule 94 and why it
4 should be allowed." Because otherwise we may as well scrap this rule
5 because this is the ideal case, we think. However, Your Honour, that is
6 my own personal plea. It's not even my personal plea. It's somebody
7 else's on my team's personal plea. They wants a ruling. But I agree that
8 if Mr. Ackerman agrees that the witnesses would not have to attend, then
9 it can be dealt with by way of Rule 92.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, that rule that she refers to,
12 that judicial notice rule, I from the very beginning thought it should
13 have been scrapped because it among other things doesn't describe a
14 situation of judicial notice.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: It's still there.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: In any event, my position is that you have got two
17 available to you at least two ways to look at the evidence about this
18 matter. One is some other court's conclusion that may not have been all
19 that interested in what went on in that village and the actual transcripts
20 of the testimony. It seems to me the best evidence is by far the actual
21 transcripts of the testimony. I have no intention of asking any of these
22 people be called for cross-examination.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. -- Ms. Korner?
24 MS. KORNER: Sorry. In that case, Your Honour, can we just make
25 the application, without having to go through the formal thing can we make
1 the application that those transcripts are admitted under Rule 92?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: And I have no objection.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there was something else occurred to me.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, there is something else. Let's go into private
7 session for a while. Please.
8 [Private session]
13 Page 12861 – redacted – private session
13 Page 12862 – redacted – private session
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner?
9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I was saying I thought there was
10 something else but I can't remember what it is so I'm sure -- but I think
11 we've dealt with the major issues that need to be dealt with so far.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's fine. I think so too. Would you like to
13 raise any further matters, Mr. Ackerman?
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: We've touched on virtually everything I had in mind
17 this morning with the exception of one and that is the calendar for the
18 first three months of this year. What I have shows absolutely no breaks
19 at all for three months, and I'm sure that's not correct. And I'm just
20 wondering when we are going to get a calendar that shows breaks during
21 that period of time.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I suggest you sit down together, you, Mr. Ackerman,
23 and you, Ms. Korner, and come with some suggestions and then we will
24 consider what the options will be. But it is very important at this point
25 in time that we recover as much lost territory as much as possible. I had
1 planned to finish the case for the Prosecution by April at the latest, but
2 as I see it, that is not going to be possible and it will be unfortunate,
3 because --
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Let me say something about that, Your Honour, that
5 I think is important. There are two really important things with regard
6 to what we call breaks. We probably should call them preparations
7 periods, because that's what they are really are. Any time I can get a
8 week or so where I don't have to be in court, I can accomplish a great
9 deal in terms of preparation which makes it possible for the case to go on
10 at the pace that it's going. So if anybody has the impression that what
11 those breaks are are times when we go skiing or lie in the sun or things
12 of that nature, they are incredibly wrong. They are times when intense
13 preparation work is being done and that's true for the Prosecutor as well
14 as the Defence and I know that to be the case.
15 The other part of that has to do with the conditions, the
16 situation, under which Mr. Brdjanin must live. The only way that he gets
17 to see his family is when we have those breaks. Otherwise, he cannot see
18 his family and it becomes a horrible situation to deprive him of the
19 ability to meet with and talk with his wife and children for extended
20 periods of time. And it's important for his mental health, for his
21 physical well being even, that he be able to do that. And so anybody who
22 thinks that what we are doing is just fooling around for no good reason
23 has got it wrong. I think we are moving this case as rapidly as we
24 possibly can, considering the nature of it and the immense amount of
25 material involved, and I am on the same page as you are, Your Honour, with
1 wanting to move forward as rapidly as we can but not unreasonably.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, I suggest you sit down and discuss this
3 amongst yourselves first.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there is no I hope. Your Honour, I took
5 the view that for once there was a sensible, straightforward sitting
6 through with no breaks, and I took the view that Your Honours must have
7 arranged for that because of the constant breaks. Your Honour, if one
8 looks at the Stakic case, the time that has been sat and all the rest of
9 it and I'm sure that Dr. Stakic has the same problems as Mr. Brdjanin and
10 that his counsel have the same problem, indeed Mr. Ostojic comes from the
11 States, but it has been sitting without a break and indeed full days in
12 many cases.
13 Your Honour, I am of course in the Trial Chamber's hands but our
14 view is that to finish this case realistically after 18 months of trial in May
15 it is only possible if we sit as the Court schedule shows. I don't know
16 the arrangements in the DU, but I cannot believe it is necessary to have
17 breaks for an accused to be able to see his family because if that was
18 right, Dr. Stakic would never have seen his family in the nine months that
19 that trial has been running.
20 Your Honour, with respect to Mr. Ackerman, of course it's right we
21 use periods off for preparation but the whole points of having, as I said
22 over and over again, two counsel, is that one counsel prepares for one
23 witness, the other counsel praeps prepares for another witness, and
24 whoever does the motions does that. So, Your Honour, of course it's a
25 matter for Your Honours and I'm not going to argue if Your Honours have --
1 but I'm not prepared to agree it.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: We will deal with it later on. In the meantime, I
3 still suggest that you sit down and discuss it amongst yourselves and
4 maybe there will be tit-for-tat approach between you. Anyway, discuss it
5 amongst yourselves before you come back to us, Mr. Ackerman, and then we
6 will decide.
7 Anything else?
8 So tomorrow, we'll have the next witness.
9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, yes, and can I say that I'm grateful to
10 Your Honours, as I say had it not been for the weather conditions last
11 week, we would have been able to start straight away.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, we are fully appreciative of the efforts
13 that you have put in and that this was beyond your control. So don't
14 worry about it.
15 So the trial stands adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00 in
16 this same courtroom. I thank you all.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
18 10.39 a.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
19 the 15th day of January, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.