Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12955

1 Thursday, 16 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, can you hear me in a language that you

10 understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning. I can hear and

12 understand. Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. Appearances for the

14 Prosecution.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, Joanna Korner, Ann Sutherland, assisted

16 by Denise Gustin, case manager. Good morning, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. Appearances for Radoslav

18 Brdjanin?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours, I'm John Ackerman with

20 Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And good morning to you, too.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Colonel, good morning to you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 12956

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We are proceeding with your testimony this morning.

2 Before we do so, please could you repeat your solemn declaration? Go

3 ahead.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down and Ms. Korner will

7 be proceeding with her questions.

8 Examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

9 MS. KORNER: Yes. I wonder if Colonel Selak could have back the

10 document he was looking at yesterday which is P1574.

11 Q. Colonel Selak, could you turn, please, to the page we were looking

12 at yesterday evening, which is I'm sorry, I should tell you it's the part

13 headed "some experiences" which is our page 5.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The paragraph -- we dealt with the fact that, as you explained to

16 us, that the political leadership, the municipal leaders, did have an

17 effect on the army when it -- certainly in respect of the troop

18 replenishment, and the next paragraph reads, "Some activists, some working

19 bodies of the region and various assemblies in the Serbian Autonomous

20 Regions are presenting the army with conditions or ultimatums advocating

21 the subordination of army units to their commands in smaller areas." Et

22 cetera. And we'll see in a later document some examples of that.

23 Due to such occurrences certain specific measures have been taken

24 but these problems will soon be discussed with SDS leaders in Sarajevo,

25 because if any of these volunteer units get out of hand, this may lead to

Page 12957

1 serious consequences."

2 Now, Colonel, I'm going to look at a document in a moment that

3 deals with what exactly these volunteer units were. But working on the

4 basis that they are some kind of paramilitary organisations, were you

5 aware from what happened of such units getting out of hand?

6 A. Yes. Such units or groups of persons, paramilitary organisations,

7 once they get their hands on weapons and military equipment, and if there

8 is no control, then they do whatever they had set out to do. And that is,

9 the arrest and mistreatment of persons, ethnical cleansing, killing,

10 plunder, from other ethnic groups. That is to say Bosniak, Croats, and

11 others too.

12 Q. As an experienced army officer, would you expect that this was

13 something that was foreseeable, that if you armed people like this, they

14 would start getting out of control, as it's put, and as you've described?

15 A. The army consciously gave weapons to these people and that was

16 shown from the previous surveys. The army could have had control over

17 these groups and it was duty-bound to have control over them. Just as the

18 sociopolitical community, the municipality, was duty-bound to do that.

19 The Ministry of the Interior, the police organs, the authorities in the

20 municipality as well. Nevertheless, there was a joint objective involved,

21 so the army did not intervene and it is precisely in order to have this

22 joint objective carried out, and that is the ethnic cleansing of the area

23 involved. They explained that this was under quotation marks "the

24 protection of Serbs from genocide." However, other peoples did not have

25 such protection and weapons were not given to them. That was the policy

Page 12958

1 of the SDS and the policy of the authorities of Republika Srpska at that

2 time.

3 Q. I appreciate your saying from your knowledge that this was

4 obviously an agreement, part of the plan, but would it be foreseeable to

5 anybody in -- as a military officer, that you armed people like this, they

6 were likely to go and commit the crimes that you've described?

7 A. As a professional officer, and at that time I was living in the

8 area too, where all of this was going on, I was horrified by what was

9 actually done. That is to say that arms were issued to people in an

10 unauthorized manner without any control. Now, what would these people

11 do? We have to be aware of the fact that there were people under the

12 influence of alcohol there, people who were nervous, people who were in

13 that kind of psychological condition when they committed crimes. That had

14 to be foreseen. There were laws in Yugoslavia, military laws, which made

15 it compulsory for officers to behave in a lawful manner in peace time and

16 even more so in times of war. I personally, as commander of a unit, would

17 have arrested my officer who would have allowed such things to happen and

18 who would have issued weapons to persons in this way without any control.

19 I would have taken adequate disciplinary measures.

20 Q. Yes. Thank you, Colonel. Can we move, then, finally, on this

21 document, please, to the paragraph, it's on our page 6, that begins, "For

22 the time being, it is necessary to halt the formation and arming of

23 volunteer units until the situation in the already-established units is

24 sorted out and until some information and solutions are found. After

25 that, a decision must be made on whether to continue with the

Page 12959

1 establishment of units or not."

2 Now, this was written, a report written, in March, 1992. You've

3 described how you were aware that these -- the Serbs were being armed. To

4 your knowledge, did the arming stop between then and April?

5 A. No. The arming of these paramilitary units or as they say

6 volunteer units continued. It was done all the time while I stayed in

7 Banja Luka, and that is to say the 18th of May, 1995.

8 Q. All right. And finally, on this document, because I don't want to

9 come back to unless it's necessary, page 8, please. They described --

10 it's page 8, sorry, in the English translation. It's part of paragraph 7,

11 "Garrisons in some part of Bosnia-Herzegovina and prospects for their

12 remaining there." And there is a paragraph that reads, "In the light of

13 the option whereby Bosnia and Herzegovina will soon be recognised as a

14 state, and the fact that the Serbian people do not want to remain there

15 and live in a ghetto state, it is to be expected that the JNA will face

16 many problems."

17 Do you know what problems the author of this document had in

18 mind? Obviously, you can't know what he had in mind, General Kukanjac,

19 but what was the problems that were foreseen whilst you were still a

20 member of the JNA as a result of what was happening?

21 A. Yes. It says that it was suspected already at that time that

22 officers who were Croats and officers who were Muslims, Bosniaks, could

23 not stay in the army because this army had to be Serb under the control of

24 the Serb people, and it is precisely this attitude towards these officers,

25 or rather the Serb leadership was afraid that these officers would not

Page 12960

1 want to carry out the tasks that would be put before them, and an effort

2 was made, and it ultimately proved to be successful to remove them from

3 the army.

4 Q. All right. I'm sorry.

5 A. So it was required that the army be under the control of the Serb

6 people, or rather the SDS.

7 Q. Yes. Thank you, Colonel Selak. You can give that document back

8 and can you now look, please, at a document that was attachment 5.

9 MS. KORNER: But , Your Honour, in fact, we had a number of

10 versions of this document and it was pointed out to me this morning it's

11 already been exhibited as P15, and I think we better have a look at that,

12 because, Your Honour, there is an extra letter attached to this document.

13 It was attachment 5 to the Colonel's second -- statement of the 10th of

14 March, but there is a fuller version with a letter attached at P15. Yes.

15 Thank you.

16 Q. Now, in fact, this goes back to August, 1991, but it is a detailed

17 account of these so-called volunteer units. The letter that I want the

18 colonel to look at first of all is this one.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we are having some difficulty finding

20 it.

21 MS. KORNER: I'm going to ask for the English version to be put on

22 to the ELMO.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Does it have a disclosure number or anything like

24 that that we could use?

25 MS. KORNER: Yes, 1.120. But it's only the letter that's not --

Page 12961

1 the second part of the document is -- was attached, is attachment 5.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: If I am reading you well, Ms. Korner, is that we do

3 have an attachment 5 together with the second statement without however

4 the letter, the covering letter.

5 MS. KORNER: Exactly, that's it, yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So that the letter should be in document or in

7 Exhibit P15 if I read you well?

8 MS. KORNER: It is, yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we need it or --

10 MS. KORNER: No, I'm just going to ask.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: To put it on the ELMO.

12 MS. KORNER: It's on the ELMO now.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Because you did mention August, 1991, while the

14 attachment that we have is dated the 27th May, then.

15 MS. KORNER: No. If Your Honour looks at attachment 5, which

16 bears the numbers 01902 --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: No, that's a different one.

18 MS. KORNER: Attachment 5 to the statement of the 10th of March,

19 and it's actually been -- you'll see at the top-handwritten a signature on

20 the 10th of March, 2001 that's purely, I think --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's not the second statement. We'll find it,

22 don't worry.

23 MS. KORNER: Right.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll find it.


Page 12962

1 Q. Colonel Selak, this is a letter addressed to the command of the

2 Bosanska Krajina volunteer units, Banja Luka, 24th of August, 1991, to the

3 municipal staffs of volunteer units, and it's signed, the letter,

4 "Commander, Colonel Ostoja, Djukanovic [phoen], I think it is?

5 A. Dejanovic.

6 Q. Dejanovic. Do you know who that was?

7 A. No. This officer came from somewhere else. He was not a serving

8 officer in Banja Luka, and this is the first time I hear of this

9 gentleman, Mr. Dejanovic. I see that he writes in Cyrillic. I believe

10 that he came to Bosnia from elsewhere, from Serbia, say. Well, anyway,

11 this is the first time I hear of him, so I have no comment.

12 Q. In that case, you mean you're guessing because he wrote in

13 Cyrillic he comes from Serbia. Is that right?

14 A. Not necessarily. However, most officers who came from those parts

15 signed their name in Cyrillic. Allow me to mention the following as

16 well: In 1995 in my command, there were Serbs, my subordinate officers

17 who were in their offices and there were sheets of paper on their desk and

18 they were practising their Cyrillic. They were practising their

19 signatures in Cyrillic which obviously shows that the Latin alphabet was

20 the official alphabet but this was an individual thing, a sort of personal

21 thing. It varied from one person to another.

22 Q. Just pause for a moment, Colonel. The translation came, as you

23 are saying, in 1995 in your command. Did you say that?

24 A. 1991, 1991, in my command, there were officers who were practising

25 to sign their names in the Cyrillic alphabet.

Page 12963

1 Q. All right. Can we just briefly look at what this gentleman is

2 saying? He encloses what he describes or what's translated as an essay.

3 Could you just read, please, the first part of that sentence after, "To

4 the municipal staffs," just the very first part, just read. If you can

5 read it.

6 A. "We hereby enclose the report submitted at the session of the

7 representatives of the municipalities of Bosanska Krajina on the occasion

8 of the establishment of the command of volunteer units of Bosanska

9 Krajina."

10 Q. Thank you very much. All right. We see that it describes what's

11 going to be set out in the document that we are going to look at. And

12 says that all the documents you receive from this command are to be

13 labelled as strictly confidential and treated as such. And so on. And so

14 forth.

15 Now, before we look at the document that's enclosed, had you ever

16 heard of this organisation, the command of Bosanska Krajina volunteer

17 units, in August of 1991?

18 A. In August of 1991, I had not heard of this command or did I know

19 where their headquarters were. I lived in Banja Luka. I worked in Banja

20 Luka. But I had no knowledge of this command.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. After all, it says here, "Strictly confidential." So it was

23 secret.

24 Q. All right. Can we now look at the document, please, that was

25 enclosed? On the version --

Page 12964

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just explain so that Your Honour

2 understands, the signature and the top and the date, the 10th of March, is

3 in fact the colonel's, if you're looking at attachment 5 now because he

4 was asked to sign just to show that he was given the document.

5 Q. The objectives and principles of organising volunteer units in the

6 Bosanska Krajina area. Then it sets out the reason for this unit and

7 says, "The JNA does not have sufficient forces to cover and protect all

8 inhabited places. In the event, in view of historical memory and real

9 danger, this people must organise their own volunteer units for their own

10 defence and protect lives. This must be done, however, on the principles

11 of Territorial Defence. In conformity with the law on all people's

12 defence, that is to say they be a constituent part of the armed forces of

13 the socialist or federal Republic of Yugoslavia as a form of the armed

14 Serbian people and can be nothing else. The Serbian people have no other

15 army except the JNA and they consider it their own. Just as they consider

16 it their duty to defend their common state from all those intent on

17 destroying it or who are opposed to equality and coexistence in the same

18 state."

19 Were you aware of the -- at any stage, after this date, and before

20 you left the JNA, of a volunteer unit that was a constituent part of the

21 JNA?

22 A. I was not aware of a single volunteer unit that was within the

23 formation of JNA units.

24 Q. All right.

25 A. I knew of their existence, though, and I knew what their role was

Page 12965












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12966

1 in that area. And I knew that the army had to have influence over them

2 because it armed them, it trained them, and these units carried out the

3 tasks that the army did not have time to carry out or could not carry out.

4 Q. All right. Well, let's very quickly, because I think the document

5 explains itself, the difference between these and the TO is they would be

6 established on an ethnic basis comprise only one nation, until an

7 agreement is reached between the peoples who wished to live in a common

8 state, free and equal." And then I don't think we need bother with the

9 rest. "It is suggested that the volunteer units have the exclusive task

10 of protecting the people from massacre by enemy forces which irrationally

11 hate the Serbian people. Our volunteer units will never be deployed

12 against another people. They will have an exclusively defensive role."

13 I think this can be answered very simply, Colonel Selak, yes or

14 no, from what you know of these forces, is that, in fact, what happened,

15 that they played nothing more than a defensive role?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Thank you. "The volunteer units will accept all tasks issued by

18 the JNA units which they can execute in conformity with the extent which

19 they are armed and their level of organisation and which pertain to the

20 protection of a common state, peace and the freedom and equality of

21 peoples which wish to live in a joint democratic state. Could never and

22 shall never execute tasks to the detriment of the Serbian people," et

23 cetera. Then, "Proposals for organising the command, the emphasis is on

24 the command, since this is a broader concept than a staff, while a staff

25 is a constituent part of every command?

Page 12967

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no idea what document we are referring to.

3 The usher can't find it. It's not on the ELMO. I don't know if Your

4 Honours have it.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course we do, yeah.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Is it in the packet that the Prosecutor gave you?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The ERN number is 01902021. That's the first

8 page of this attachment. And Ms. Korner was -- has been reading from page

9 1 and then she moved --

10 MS. KORNER: About to move, Your Honour, to the next page.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

12 MS. KORNER: I don't know. If the usher is having problems.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps, Mr. Ackerman, if you have an extra copy, or

14 else I could give my own copy to the Defence and then they will return it

15 later.

16 MS. KORNER: Can I continue? I think the usher has it now.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: I still don't have it, Your Honour.

19 MS. KORNER: Well, it's now on the ELMO.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

21 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honour, I should add so that normally we

22 only give the Defence the list, but this time we thought in order to

23 prevent this from happening we will give them copies as well.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

25 MS. KORNER: All right.

Page 12968

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, what they gave us is right here and we didn't

2 take it anywhere, it stayed in the building all night, we are going

3 through it, we can't find it. And I'm sorry, I can't find it. I wish I

4 could find it, Your Honour, and solve all this problem.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, there are various statements. You

6 have to go to the statement of the 10th of March, 2001. And then there

7 you have one to eight as attachments and we are talking of attachment

8 number 5.

9 MS. KORNER: In any event, Your Honour, it's on the ELMO it's also

10 the same as P15 so... Right. Could we go, then, please, usher to the

11 next page, page 2 on the ELMO?

12 Q. Where they set out their command structure. It should have

13 commander a deputy commander, a member of the command, a prominent figure

14 of the SDS party, a highly political figure. Then a Chief of Staff and so

15 on and so forth. And a, chief of the police. That is to say of the SUP

16 for Bosanska Krajina.

17 "As opposed to other similar commands of JNA units, the specific

18 character of the member of the command, a prominent figure of the SDS is

19 noteworthy. This individual is de facto the principal coordinator of

20 official SDS policy as the most organised political force of the Serbian

21 people which expresses the interests of its people in the most complete

22 manner possible. Without the SDS as the main political organiser of the

23 Serbian people, this command could not fulfil its role. That is to say,

24 achieve close ties with the people, which is of the greatest significance

25 in today's political situation. The chief of the Bosanska Krajina SUP is

Page 12969

1 indispensable in the command from a different, security aspect, because

2 the security situation in the territory can only be ensured by uniting

3 forces."

4 Now, within the JNA, colonel, were politicians or police officers

5 actual members of units?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In what sense?

8 A. In the unit formation, in the command was the deputy for morale

9 and political affairs, in each unit, and he answered only to the

10 commander. His task was to work to raise the morale in the subordinated

11 units, the morale of the soldiers and the whole unit, and these organs

12 were regularly in touch with the political organs of the sociopolitical

13 community in whose area they were.

14 Q. Right. I'm sorry, it's my fault. I didn't put the question

15 properly. We know that, because we looked at your list of functions

16 within the JNA, there was an officer for morale and there was a security

17 officer. But were these police officers -- was that -- was the sorry, --

18 was the deputy for morale a politician or was he a serving JNA officer?

19 Was the person for security a police officer or a serving JNA officer?

20 A. Those were active officers who were carrying out security and

21 political duties within the units. They had special training, from their

22 specialty. They completed the regular military academies and later, in

23 accordance with their duties, they went to different courses, seminars,

24 workshops, and so on, and dealt only with those issues. That was their

25 specialty.

Page 12970

1 Q. But here, what appears to be suggested, anyhow, is that an actual

2 politician and an actual police officer should be incorporated into the

3 units. Did that ever happen within the JNA, that actual politicians, SDS,

4 in JNA units? Not volunteer, but JNA units?

5 A. No, never.

6 Q. I want to come back to the end of my questioning to the

7 relationship between the army, and the political, as you've expressed it.

8 All right. Then it goes on to deal with various other requirements of the

9 forces which I don't intend to go through. If we go to page 3 in the

10 translation --

11 A. May I just give an additional explanation about what I said

12 earlier? When I said that active officers carried out those duties,

13 however, in war, after mobilisation, it was possible to have some reserve

14 officer perform that duty, but as an officer, they could be of other

15 specialties, even politicians, but it could happen in certain

16 circumstances that they would be politicians as well as carry out those

17 duties, and I apologise because I forgot to say that earlier.

18 Q. That's quite all right. And I think we all understand the

19 distinction.

20 All right. If we look, please, could you go to the paragraph in

21 your version of the document that begins, "Persons loyal to their people

22 are needed here"? It's on our page 3 in the middle of the second

23 paragraph. "Persons loyal to their people are needed here."

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. "That is to say those who will not accept terms under which" --

Page 12971

1 A. No.

2 Q. No?

3 A. No, no. Just one moment. Yes, yes, that's okay.

4 Q. "Persons loyal to their people are needed here. That is to say

5 those who will not accept terms under which the Serbs must lose out so

6 that other peoples may only then wish to live with them in a common

7 state. Under no circumstances will anyone be able to proclaim that we are

8 paramilitary forces or declare us Serbian nationalists. Not even

9 hypothetically will they be able to turn us into Chetniks, terrorists, and

10 the destroyers of the state for which it was precisely the Serbian people

11 who gave the most lives."

12 The paramilitary groups that we know operated during the conflict,

13 did you hear them described at any stage as Chetniks or terrorists?

14 A. Yes. I heard several times that they were called Chetniks,

15 terrorists, slaughterers and other derogatory terms. This is probably a

16 result of their behaviour, based on that, the term "Chetnik" became

17 synonymous with those units. Unfortunately, there was a lot of behaviour

18 like that, and the result is well known.

19 Q. All right. And then it explains that the principle would be one,

20 as the Swiss system, you work and defend yourself, and finishes off by

21 saying that: "Weapons are the safest in the hands of our Serbian men.

22 They clean it, safeguard it, and maintain it with a sense of

23 responsibility. They have a psychological relationship with it which is

24 very different from weapons newly obtained from a mobilisation assembly

25 points."

Page 12972

1 And then it points out that, "A poor level of training can be

2 swiftly compensated for if organised activity is pursued and assist tell

3 of defending the people is inexpensive." And then finally this, on the

4 last paragraph of this document, page 4, "The persons -- those persons who

5 ordered that the depots be opened and that weapons be distributed to the

6 Serbian people knew why they were doing it. It is plain to the Serbian

7 people that they have not been abandoned and that forces exist which take

8 their safety into account."

9 And this is dated as we saw 24th of August, 1991, where it's

10 already saying that those persons who ordered that the depots be opened,

11 weapons be distributed to Serbs -- now you told us yesterday that you'd

12 had an order to distribute weapons, which you'd refused to do. Was that

13 around this period of time? August, September of 1991?

14 A. Just one correction. In the month of May, 1991, I had a conflict

15 with General Uzelac for this very reason because weapons were requested

16 for units which were not in the JNA. A mobilisation was not announced so

17 my first contact with this issue was actually in May 1991. In the

18 document here, it states clearly that the warehouses are open. Weapons,

19 ammunition, and other military equipment was in the warehouses of the

20 logistics bases. However, the corps commands and their subordinated units

21 had a surplus of weapons, specially when the units pulled out from

22 Slovenia and Croatia, and those weapons were distributed. Counter to

23 regulations and the laws. And they were not issued in the logistics bases

24 but directly from the corps commands. So this can be seen on the basis of

25 this document, which I didn't have before.

Page 12973

1 Q. So you told us this was in May 1991. That was before any of the

2 conflicts, then?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. All right. I want to deal --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. You can put the document down and I just want to deal,

7 then, with this issue of -- oh, I haven't -- sorry, well, Your Honour I

8 know we used that but as it's already exhibited I don't think we need to

9 re-exhibit it. Thank you.

10 Now, I want to deal, please, then, with this topic of

11 paramilitaries. You've seen these documents. Did you ever have any

12 occasion to come across the actual training by the JNA, by JNA officers in

13 the 5th Corps, of these type of volunteer or paramilitary organisations?

14 A. I personally was not present, and I didn't see the training of

15 such organisations. In Banja Luka there were two firing, training ranges,

16 for smaller infantry weapons. One was in Vrbanja and one in Rakovacke

17 Bare, so the TO units.

18 Q. Right.

19 A. The third facility was the Manjaca facility, which was as part of

20 the military academy. I knew it well. I didn't go up there. I didn't

21 have any need to go there, but I know that paramilitary formations went

22 through training there. That I do know.

23 Q. Right. Can you tell us how you first found out about that?

24 A. The officers from my command, naturally, communicated with their

25 colleagues from the corps, from the other units, from the military

Page 12974

1 academy, and this, to each one of us professional officers who had stated

2 the oath was something that bothered all of us. I don't remember all the

3 names right now. It's been a long time ago, but I have taken an oath. So

4 I remain -- I stand by my word.

5 Q. All right. Now, were you present at any type of conversation in

6 respect of these Manjaca -- the use of the Manjaca training ground,

7 between General Uzelac and anyone else?

8 A. Yes. I was in the office of General Uzelac. We were talking

9 about the problems in the army, the telephone rang, Colonel Bogdan Subotic

10 was calling. The assistant of the chief of the military school for tank

11 training in Banja Luka. He informed him about the training of those

12 paramilitary and volunteer units - I don't know what to call them - in

13 Manjaca. When they finished their conversation, General Uzelac asked me

14 what was Subotic's name? He should go up to Manjaca. He was in charge of

15 the training of those units. That is the first information, official

16 information, that I had from an authorised body that these people were

17 legally trained in Manjaca.

18 Q. Well --

19 A. There was another occasion, but this was already in May, 1992.

20 So --

21 Q. I'm going to come on to that in a moment. I just want to deal

22 with this. First of all, when was this conversation at which you were

23 present, between Subotic and Uzelac?

24 A. It may have been, it could have been November 1991, because

25 General Uzelac was the corps commander until the 28th of December, 1991.

Page 12975

1 Q. When you say "that is the first information, official information,

2 that I had from an authorised body that these people were legally trained

3 in Manjaca," maybe in the translation, did you use the word "legally"?

4 A. The Manjaca training ground is a legal military facility. It's

5 very large. It was built up over 15 -- a period of 15 years to train tank

6 operators of all types. So if people are trained in that facility, that

7 can only be legally and something that is approved by the authorised

8 military organs.

9 Q. Now, you told us that there was -- you were present in May on

10 another occasion, May of 1992, when there was some discussion about this.

11 Where was this discussion taking place, and with whom?

12 A. In my official notebook, I have written down the date, but I can

13 reproduce it without that. However, if the Court would like me to look at

14 my official notebook, or I can just state that now and then if the Court

15 requests, I can document that.

16 Q. No. I think it is better that you use your official notebook for

17 this, although I was going to take events in order. Could you take out

18 your notebook?

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the entry in relation to this you will

20 find on, I think -- there is a document as well -- yes. It's I think,

21 Your Honour, it's the 21st of June, I think. I think, Your Honour -- 1st

22 of June.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That could be the 1st of June.

24 MS. KORNER: Yes. If Your Honours goes to page 159, the entry

25 begins on page 158 but the relevant part is on page 159 -- maybe not.

Page 12976












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12977

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my official notebook, I have

2 found the date, the 1st of June, 1992, reporting to the commander of the

3 1st Krajina Corps, General Talic.


5 Q. Is this under "assignments"?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: It would be, probably.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's right. When the corps

8 commander started to speak, then after that, are assignments, there are

9 six tasks, assignments that he issued. Can I quote them?


11 Q. Certainly. Yes, if you deal with, I think it's 1, isn't it, and

12 4?

13 A. The first task is to arm all soldiers at Manjaca. Task number 4

14 is the prisoner of war camp at Manjaca, urgent, for approximately 2.500

15 people.

16 Q. And was anything said, that you recall, outside your note, in

17 respect of the paramilitaries who were training there?

18 A. Yes. It was stated that all units, all paramilitary formations,

19 have to be removed from the Manjaca training ground. It's written down

20 somewhere.

21 Q. Well, we may come back to that because I know that there is a

22 document also from the -- an actual official document that I can't find

23 just at the moment, that deals with that.

24 Now, finally, on this question of paramilitaries, were you in

25 Banja Luka at the beginning of April of 1992?

Page 12978

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And do you recall a group of armed men coming into Banja Luka and

3 setting up barricades?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Calling themselves the Serb defence forces, the SOS?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Had you heard of such a group calling itself the SOS before this?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. In what connection?

10 A. Serb Defence Forces were formed precisely at that time, and for a

11 brief period, for about two months, I was appointed the chief of the group

12 of officers for cooperation with the UN, with the UNPROFOR forces. 15

13 UNPROFOR officers came to Banja Luka, and knowing what stupid things and

14 what problems were going on in town at night, there were robberies at the

15 checkpoints, also, and other things, so I discussed with those UNPROFOR

16 officers that they should not move about town at night. They should

17 remain at their hotel, the Hotel Bosna where they were staying and that

18 they shouldn't move around town. So I was concerned about their security

19 and I was also responsible for it. But after that, I was replaced from

20 that duty and then I came back to be the commander of the base. So I

21 didn't really perform that function for more than two months, because I

22 was not appropriate from the political aspect for that -- for that job.

23 Q. Whose duty was it to deal with these men who had arrived in town

24 and were putting up barricades?

25 A. The main responsibility was of the organs of the internal affairs

Page 12979

1 of SUP, the civilian police, and if they were not able to resolve the

2 problem, then they would ask for assistance from the military police or

3 the corps units to remove those people to resolve the problem, to protect

4 the people and to make sure that normal life was restored. However, this

5 was never done. These White Eagles, they went from Banja Luka, someone

6 went away from Banja Luka, but however these problems continued. There

7 were arrests of people, robberies and so on. And I can say they legally

8 [as interpreted], openly, sold weapons in the streets of Banja Luka in

9 front of the barracks to people, to passers-by.

10 Q. Pause please, Colonel Selak, can I just remind you because I think

11 there was a problem with the translation, they didn't catch what you

12 said -- not to go too quickly. You say these "White Eagles" --

13 A. I apologise.

14 Q. Did you call these people White Eagles? Are you referring to the

15 people in Banja Luka?

16 A. They were mixed. The people didn't know exactly who they were.

17 I'm talking about what's going on in Banja Luka, Red Berets, White Eagles,

18 formations of Lieutenant Milankovic. So these were all these groups that

19 went all throughout Bosanska Krajina. They were in Banja Luka and people

20 in the town mixed them all up. You never officially knew who was who.

21 Q. All right.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner we need to correct something as well

23 because here on the transcript, I see that, "And I can say they legally,

24 openly sold weapons in the streets of Banja Luka." Did you say "legally"

25 or "illegally"?

Page 12980

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Legally. It's a mistake. Openly,

2 without authorisation, in front of the Kozara barracks, there was a place

3 where people could buy weapons. So it's not legally, they simply got

4 their hands on weapons in an unauthorized way. They had a surplus of

5 weapons and they were selling them openly in the street.

6 MS. KORNER: I think what you meant was in a sense of they were

7 selling illegally but were being allowed to do it openly, as you just

8 explained. Is that right?

9 A. Illegally, yes, yes.

10 Q. All right. What I'm just concerned with, I think, is it right?

11 Through the period that you remained in Banja Luka, other paramilitary

12 groups, calling themselves White Eagles or whatever, came in, I'm just

13 concentrating on the people calling themselves the Serbian Defence

14 Forces. You told us it was the civilian authorities' duty to remove them,

15 and if they didn't, couldn't do it themselves, then to seek the assistance

16 of the army.

17 Who was the person who -- or persons who should have been

18 directing the police to remove these people from the streets of Banja

19 Luka, which authorities?

20 A. First of all the Crisis Staff of Banja Luka, the President of the

21 Banja Luka municipality, the chief of the Public Security Services or SUP

22 Banja Luka, and the military, General Talic also had to have intervened

23 and to have demanded that this be resolved, and in case this was

24 necessary, to provide assistance to the MUP in order to resolve this

25 situation.

Page 12981

1 Q. You say the Crisis Staff. By that, do you mean the Crisis Staff

2 that had been set up in response to that situation?

3 A. The Crisis Staff in Banja Luka already existed in 1991 [as

4 interpreted], and based on Crisis Staffs being formed throughout Bosanska

5 Krajina. So it went by municipalities, each one had their own Crisis

6 Staff. And it took over the authority of the assembly and worked on

7 behalf of the assembly. So it was responsible for the entire life in the

8 whole municipality.

9 Q. Yes. Sorry, Colonel Selak, it may be a long time ago and you're

10 right that in each municipality, Crisis Staffs were set up at different

11 times, but in 1991, there was no Crisis Staff, official Crisis Staff, set

12 up in Banja Luka, was there? It came in in 1992.

13 A. No.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think it's a translation error. He

15 said 1992, I believe.

16 MS. KORNER: Oh, did he?


18 MS. KORNER: I think it's important, Your Honour, that is

19 something -- on dates, the interpreters should say if they have had made a

20 mistake state straight away.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I agree with you. I take it from what

22 Mr. Ackerman said having the assistance of Ms. Jevtovic that he did say

23 1992, but it needed to be corrected in any case because the transcript

24 that we have here says 1991. So...

25 MS. KORNER: That's all right.

Page 12982

1 Q. Colonel Selak, that's why, it's not your fault, I know because we

2 ask you questions and you're giving us answers if you could try and slow

3 down in your answer so the interpreters could keep up. Thank you. Right.

4 A. Thank you. It's a professional deformity.

5 Q. Right. I want to move now, please, to the events through your

6 diary, and then when we get to, deal with the topic of dismissals in the

7 JNA and how it affected you. I would like you, please, first of all,

8 because your diary -- I'm sorry, I apologise. I keep calling it your

9 diary, your notebook begins in December of 1991. Is that right?

10 A. Yes. The 19th of December, 1991.

11 Q. Now, I would like you, please, just before we do that, to have a

12 look at a document that relates to you and a number of other people,

13 before the 19th of December. Could you be handed, please, 4.1718. It's a

14 document dated the 3rd of December, 1991. It's from the 5th Corps.

15 And effectively, it's I think a recommendation for awards to be

16 given. And do we see that under the order of the peoples army with laurel

17 wreath, you and indeed your assistant commander, Tepsic, were supposed to

18 be awarded this particular order?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What kind of an order was it? It says above that -- well, I

21 should perhaps have read the first bit, "For competence and courage in

22 command and control of units during wartime assignments." Is that

23 effectively, that's what it was for?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. Thank you. Did you ever get that award as it turned

Page 12983

1 out?

2 A. Yes -- no, I didn't.

3 Q. Was any explanation given to you why you weren't being given this

4 award?

5 A. No. I was not given any explanation. I did not even know about

6 this document. This surprised me very much. The logistics base was

7 carrying out its tasks correctly and the inspections always found the

8 state of affairs there to be excellent, and that is probably the basis for

9 this, but it was a political decision that was probably made elsewhere.

10 Q. Do you know whether -- I think it's Colonel Tepsic got his award?

11 A. On the 22nd of December, I was at the army hall. That was the

12 holiday, the JNA day, that was always celebrated. So that is when these

13 awards were carried out too but I don't know who all the persons who got

14 them were. There were many people present there. I did not know that I

15 had even been a candidate. So at that time I wasn't even hoping for any

16 such thing. Let's put it that way.

17 Q. All right. Thank you. You can put that document away.

18 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, could that be made, please,

19 Exhibit P1575?

20 Q. Now, you've already explained to the Court what this work,

21 official notebook, consisted of, and how you compiled it. On the 20th of

22 December.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, at page 3.

24 Q. Is there an entry under political and moral guidance, which reads,

25 "The SFRY order communicated to the troops"? Is that the entry there that

Page 12984

1 you have --

2 A. Yes, yes. I have the assistant for morale in my command, Major

3 Pavlovic. He said at the meeting of the organs of my command that an

4 order of the Presidency of the SFRY addressed to all the units was read

5 out. This was something that had to do with --

6 Q. Yes. Don't worry about what the order was because I'm not --

7 unless you think it's particularly important.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All I'm interested in is this: Was that a routine procedure that

10 the political instructions would be communicated to the troops?

11 A. This was not addressed to the units. It was addressed to the

12 organs of my command. They were the ones who were told. They were the

13 one who is were supposed to be made aware of these orders, and he only

14 familiarised us, that is to say my subordinates and myself with these

15 orders.

16 Q. Okay. In that case, I think it may be the way it's translated.

17 So what you're saying is you, the officers, would be told what the orders

18 were from the Presidency?

19 A. Please. I'm quoting this. This is a meeting with --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please read slower? The

21 interpreters cannot keep up.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Colonel, the interpreters are finding it difficult

23 to catch up with your speed, with the speed with which you're talking. So

24 if you could slow down, please, you would be helping them. And they need

25 that.

Page 12985


2 Q. All right. Can you tell us very simply in one sentence: What

3 does this entry mean?

4 A. This note of mine says that the officers of the command were made

5 aware of the order of the Presidency of the SFRY.

6 Q. And is that something that would happen on a regular basis?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Then could you move to the 26th of December? At that stage, were

9 you in Belgrade?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And if you find, please, under 8, you noted down, General

12 Vidovic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At that stage, 26th of December, had General Vidovic taken over

15 command of the 5th Corps?

16 A. No. General Vukovic.

17 Q. Somebody different. Who was General Vidovic?

18 A. General Vidovic was assistant commander of the 1st military

19 district in Belgrade for political affairs and morale.

20 Q. And he stated there, he talked about the international recognition

21 of the republics of Slovenia and Croatia. And then said this:

22 "Yugoslavia will survive, part of Bosnia-Herzegovina with Yugoslavia? The

23 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbian Krajinas and others will

24 be part of the new Yugoslavia."

25 Is that what you wrote down?

Page 12986

1 A. Yes. That is a direct quote.

2 Q. All right. And what nationality was General Vidovic?

3 A. Serb.

4 Q. What was your reaction when you heard what he was saying there?

5 A. I managed to write down all the issues that were presented at this

6 meeting. I was a bit upset by all of this but I had to remain silent and

7 be wise.

8 Q. And it may seem obvious but why were you a bit upset?

9 A. Well, I was upset how come there could be a Serb Republic of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina in Yugoslavia. I personally was in favour of

11 Yugoslavia, but a Yugoslavia of all its peoples, and here it says: "The

12 Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina," and that surprised me and it

13 astounded me actually. Also, reference is made to the Serb Krajinas

14 here. These are the Krajinas from Croatia. As a professional officer, it

15 was clear to me how this would come about, and how efforts would be made

16 in order to have this objective achieved.

17 Q. And at that stage, if you can, taking yourself back to December,

18 1991, how did you think this was to be achieved?

19 A. 1991? This option, and this solution to the political crisis in

20 the territory of the former Yugoslavia, could be carried out only by way

21 of war, because it is certain that the Muslim people, rather the Bosniak

22 people and the Croat people in Bosnia-Herzegovina would not allow this

23 kind of a political settlement, and this leads to war.

24 Q. All right. Finishing off the entries for this date, then, please,

25 could you find under 10 what a General Crmaric said?

Page 12987












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12988

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's a wrong spelling of the name.

2 A. Crmaric. That is my direct superior.


4 Q. And that I think is spelled C-r-m-a-r-i-c?

5 A. C-r-m.

6 Q. All right. He is giving you instructions there, or instructs to

7 be given -- do not issue weapons to TO for units not approved by the

8 federal national Defence secretariat.

9 Now, we've already had a look at a number of documents that went

10 on you -- but to your knowledge, was the corps later given permission to

11 hand out arms outside those approved units?

12 A. I was told verbally at a meeting at the corps commander's office

13 that the corps had received approval from the federal secretariat for

14 national defence in terms of the following: That within their own area of

15 responsibility, they could issue arms and equipment to others. Of course,

16 of course, within the legal framework of the mobilisation of units. That

17 is the way I understood it, that it would be done within the legal

18 framework, namely that mobilisation would be officially declared, in terms

19 of a particular wartime unit, or Territorial Defence.

20 On that basis, General Uzelac, the commander of the corps in

21 general, could issue an order to me to issue weapons to that kind of a

22 unit.

23 Q. And who told you verbally that the corps had been given permission

24 to issue weapons outside approved units?

25 A. I attended meetings of the corps command regularly in General

Page 12989

1 Uzelac's office where all other questions were looked at as well. Those

2 related to combat readiness and the like, within the corps, and I don't

3 know who provided this information.

4 Q. All right. Sorry, I should have -- can I just go back -- I forgot

5 to ask you about General Vidovic. Was he a senior officer in the JNA?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And so this was him giving the political objective to

8 subordinates, was it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And --

11 A. I beg your pardon, he is presenting the positions of the general

12 staff.

13 MS. KORNER: I see.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, previously he said that he was assistant

15 commander of the 1st military district in Belgrade for political affairs

16 and morale.

17 MS. KORNER: What I'm trying to establish is that that is a senior

18 position.

19 A. Yes, yes.


21 Q. All right.

22 A. Oh, yes, yes, a very senior position.

23 Q. All right. And then finally, I think, on this meeting of the 26th

24 of December, could you find a section that says, "Commander"? It's page 9

25 of our translation.

Page 12990

1 A. "Commander," yes, commander of the 1st military district, Colonel

2 General Spirkovski.

3 Q. Was he the most senior officer presents at that meeting?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who in some ways was echoing what General Vidovic had said, "With

6 the exception of just a few countries, the whole world is eager to see the

7 SFRY disintegrate with the World War II axis powers leading the pack and

8 European countries making it possible." Now, what nationality was the

9 most senior officer there?

10 A. Macedonian.

11 Q. The -- well, I thought -- ethnicity? You say Macedonian. Was

12 that a separate ethnicity?

13 A. Yes. Orthodox religion.

14 Q. Right. He sort of harks back to World War II, axis powers. Was

15 that a theme that occurred more than once during the period leading to the

16 conflict, the World War II events?

17 A. Yes. They mentioned the situation that existed in the Second

18 World War and the objection made to Germany was that they stood on the

19 side of Croatia and the Bosniak people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that

20 that is what they expected of Germany, and the so-called axis powers, but

21 they were specifically speaking about Germany and my comment follows.

22 Q. And then the next, "Everything being done in Yugoslavia has been

23 prepared for many years." Is that what he said?

24 A. Yes, those are his words. Please, this is a quotation.

25 Your Honours, these are sentences that are written that way.

Page 12991

1 Also, a handwriting expert can check this out.

2 Q. It's all right. There is no -- it's all right, Colonel. Nobody

3 is suggesting it's a forgery. I just want to know whether it was your

4 comments or what he said. What was he referring to there, do you know?

5 A. The meaning of this was, according to the words of the commander

6 and of the other officers, the generals, who spoke, was that it was held

7 against the west that they were trying to topple communism in Yugoslavia

8 and that is why the Second World War was mentioned, in that context.

9 Q. All right. Thank you. We can leave that entry.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour the next entry I want to look at is quite

11 a lengthy one so perhaps it can be --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a break of 25 minutes. Thank you.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Where is the witness?

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry, he was kept out just for one

17 second. Literally. Your Honour, I want to make an application to exceed

18 a page limit for a motion. We are reapplying for the witness summons for

19 Mr. Randal, in the light of the Appeals Chamber's decision.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you applying also for summons to be issued

21 against the other journalist as well?

22 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour, we are going to be explaining this,

23 because we find the Appeals Chamber's ruling on this somewhat

24 extraordinary --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It would be very interesting if the two journalists

Page 12992

1 are sought to be brought over to give evidence. And both of them refused

2 to.

3 MS. KORNER: Well, as Your Honour saw and Your Honour has taken

4 the point this is the most circular decision I've ever seen. Would we are

5 going to reapply but I would like to exceed the ten page limit, 20 pages.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for formality. Granted.

7 Where is the witness?

8 MS. KORNER: He's being brought in.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We will be continuing with this note?

10 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, we are going to go through that.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you think you will finish with the witness

12 today?

13 MS. KORNER: No. But I will finish tomorrow definitely, and I'll

14 finish before the end of tomorrow.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And you will be a position to start your

16 cross tomorrow, Mr. Ackerman?

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, I just discussed that Mr. Ms. Korner. I'll be

18 in a position to start but maybe not finish tomorrow. I may want to carry

19 over to -- even adjourn early tomorrow.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: That would suit me fine because I needs to be at the

21 airport at 3.00.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay. Then I think we'll accommodate you, Your

23 Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: But the witness will have to be informed that he

25 will be staying.

Page 12993

1 MS. KORNER: We anticipated that and we informed him about that.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

3 Colonel, we are continuing.


5 Q. Colonel, can we now move to your entry for the 1st of January,

6 1992?

7 MS. KORNER: For our purposes, Your Honour, it begins at page 15.



10 Q. And was this you on the 1st of January reporting to the commander

11 of the 5th Corps?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And can you now turn, please, to the entry that is headed, "Tasks

14 of the 5th Corps commander," which is at our page 17?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And if you just remind us again so that I don't make the mistake,

17 who was the commander of the 5th Corps in January?

18 A. General Vukovic.

19 Q. All right. And is this -- where you've got this headed of the

20 tasks of the 5th Corps commander, is this him telling what you is

21 expected?

22 A. No. The corps commander talks here. The tasks of the corps

23 commander, which he is transferring to us, his subordinates.

24 Q. Yes. All right. We see 1, the tasks from the federal secretariat

25 of national Defence. And so is he relaying to you, his officers, the

Page 12994

1 tasks that had been set by the federal secretariat?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. And then we see that the problem they say can be

4 solved by deploying UN forces?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then, under 2, "The position of the JNA and SFRY Presidency is

7 the problem must be solved in a peaceful manner with UN forces but with

8 separating forces." And here, is this in relation to the conflict in

9 Croatia?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And this is more about what the solution would be. And then can

12 we come down to the reasoning that the supreme staff is committed to, "The

13 JNA had two tasks: To protect the Serbs in" -- and you've written -- RH,

14 from genocide. Is that the Republika Hvratska, Croatia?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you surprised that apparently the JNA's view was that the

17 only people who should be protected were the Serbs?

18 A. This was a surprise to me. I didn't believe this information

19 completely. It wasn't logical.

20 Q. "And then to withdraw the JNA troops and families of servicemen

21 and the military equipment from Croatia." And then it goes on again,

22 "Serbian-populated areas continue to be protected against genocide. This

23 task is in progress and has been carried out well so far."

24 What was your understanding of the role of the JNA in respect of

25 protection?

Page 12995

1 A. I understood this when earlier General Vidovic said that

2 Yugoslavia would survive, that Serbian Krajinas and the Serb Republic of

3 Bosnia and Herzegovina were in Yugoslavia, that the JNA was that force

4 that would separate the Serbian Krajina from Croatia and join it to

5 Yugoslavia. That was my understanding of this information.

6 Q. Before these remarks were made by these senior officers, was your

7 understanding of the JNA that it should protect one nationality only? The

8 role of the JNA, I should say.

9 A. No. I didn't. I understood it as the army of all the ethnic

10 groups, all the peoples, and as such, I made -- gave my oath, and I fought

11 for that with full conviction.

12 Q. And then it goes on, the commander went on to say that, later,

13 "Our actions must be free from --" I'm sorry, yes, could you read that

14 sentence that begins, "Our actions"?

15 A. The present moment --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the next sentence.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think there is an error in the

18 translation. That's why I'm asking that.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I understood that straight away.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the

21 question?


23 Q. Could you just read, Colonel Selak, you've read -- you've seen the

24 sentence which begins, "The present moment." Could you read the next

25 sentence after that?

Page 12996

1 A. Yes. "Everything that we do must be beyond any party or political

2 nuance, without any option for any party but with all of those who wish

3 for Yugoslavia."

4 Q. What did you understand that the general was saying in this

5 sentence?

6 A. That is how I understood it, that they wanted Yugoslavia to

7 survive but within the new borders, the way it was delineated in the

8 military and political circles. So Yugoslavia, with Serbia, Montenegro,

9 Macedonia, the Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Serb Krajina,

10 and that was and is now part of the territory of the Republic of Croatia.

11 Q. All right. Can we then move, please, to your heading, "Commentary

12 on reports"? It's our page 18. The commentary on reports that -- your

13 headline, what does that mean? Who was giving a commentary?

14 A. This is a commentary on reports. That's what it says in my

15 notebook, and this is still the commander, the commander of the 5th Corps

16 who is speaking.

17 Q. Right. And then he -- under the 5th Corps tasks, he talks about

18 the bridgehead at the Sava River, securing the line, and expand this into

19 the area populated by Serbs, in order to prevent the Croatian army from

20 committing genocide against Serbian population. Does it read, "Secure a

21 passage for the area populated by Serbs"?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then it deals with the UN forces.

24 Now, could you read, please, the next paragraph -- or the next

25 bit, which starts, "The objective"?

Page 12997

1 A. Yes. "The objective could be formulated in the following way: Up

2 to 20.000 Croatian soldiers to be free to engage in Srem, Lika, and Kordun

3 and to prevent Croatian nationalism and Ustasha ideas from spreading in

4 the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina populated by Croats. To prevent

5 the alliance of Croatian and Muslim nationalists so that peoples of Bosnia

6 and Herzegovina can express their wish as to what kind of a state they

7 desire to live in."

8 Q. The 20.000 troops or Croatian troops, what was being said there?

9 Don't read it again. Just tell us what the effect of what the commander

10 was saying there is. What should happen in respect of 20.000 troops?

11 A. I understood it to mean that the units of the 5th Corps, with

12 their engagement in the front, should link those or engage those 20.000

13 Croat soldiers so that they are not free to commit genocide against the

14 Serb population.

15 Q. Okay. Then can we move, please, next further on in your diary, in

16 your workbook, to the 6th of January? Just very briefly. Was -- we can

17 see that virtually the same words about the JNA protecting Serbs from

18 genocide, et cetera, are repeated. Was that you briefing your officers on

19 what had been said by the commander?

20 A. Yes. On the 6th of January, I had a meeting with my subordinate

21 bodies, and as commander, I regularly informed them and conveyed to them

22 information that I received from the 5th Corps commander. I have just

23 quoted all the information that we went through earlier.

24 Q. Right.

25 A. And I also quoted the tasks assigned to my command, to my unit.

Page 12998












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12999

1 Q. All right. Now, part of what the commander had told you and which

2 you passed on to your officers under your command could be said to be a

3 political goal. Was it mandatory that those goals were followed by the

4 officers under the commands of the generals?

5 A. Yes. If anybody had any dilemmas or something wasn't clear, he

6 should ask at the meeting, and additional information should have been

7 given to them. A person was not supposed to leave a meeting with anything

8 that was not clear.

9 Q. All right. Now, on that note, it's a slightly earlier document

10 but it deals with the same topic, could you be shown, please, a document

11 42159. It's a document dated the 10th of December, 1991. And it comes, I

12 think, from the federal secretariat for national defence. Is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. He's actually addressed -- this particular version that we've

16 acquired is addressed to the 9th Corps commander and it's copy number 25,

17 apparently, but would this document have been sent to the commanders of

18 all the corps?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And it's signed and stamped, I think, for somebody standing in for

21 a General Major Polic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And he was who?

24 A. I don't know what his duties were. I heard about General Polic.

25 He was in the general staff of the armed forces of the SFRY. I don't know

Page 13000

1 where he is now but he did have the right to sign and stamp on behalf of

2 the general staff, and it states here that an authorised person signed

3 this document.

4 Q. Yes. All right. And is it right that in handwriting, it says

5 that "This is all people's defence, use in the elaboration of coming

6 activities and send units, orders to units, informing them of tasks," or

7 something like that anyhow?

8 A. Yes. And the deadline was given, the 20th of December, 1991, for

9 that to be done, and it is stated clearly in the Cyrillic script.

10 Q. Now, you told us about your meeting in Belgrade that you had on

11 the 20th of December, and where the various things were communicated to

12 you, and then on the 26th of December.

13 Could you look, please -- there is a description of the -- I'm

14 sorry, first of all, the headnote, "Directive on the use of the armed

15 forces for the preparation and performance of combat operations in the

16 forthcoming period." And then there is a description of the background

17 and the events. Could you look, please, at paragraph with the roman

18 numeral II?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. "Our armed forces are entering a new period of exceptional

21 significance for accomplishing the ultimate aims of the war." And then

22 "protection of the Serbian people -- of the Serbian population." In the

23 original, is that circled, those words?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't know if Ms. Korner knows the

Page 13001

1 answer. Was this -- this circling and underlining and all of this done by

2 people at the OTP or did the document acquire -- was it acquired in this

3 form?

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, as far as I know, and I'll check I'll

5 have to get the original from the evidence unit, but this was done -- this

6 is on the original copy but I will check that.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please do, Ms. Korner, and let us know. Thank

8 you.


10 Q. And then, "Protection of the Serbian population, a peaceful

11 resolution of the Yugoslav crisis and the creation of conditions in which

12 Yugoslavia may be preserved." And then it sets out tasks and could we

13 look at paragraph number 6 of tasks?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. "In all zones of combat operations, place under the command of the

16 most senior JNA officers all units of the JNA and TO as well as volunteer

17 units which agree to be subordinate to that command and wear JNA and TO

18 insignia. Consider all other armed formations paramilitaries, disarm them

19 and remove them from the BD zone."

20 A. Combat operations, "borbena dejstva," BD.

21 Q. All right. Now, you've had a chance -- I don't want to go through

22 any more of the document but you've had a chance to read it I think

23 before. To your recollection -- we saw that you were being briefed on

24 instructions from the secretariat of national defence. Were these the

25 instructions that were being read to you?

Page 13002

1 A. Instructions were not read to me but at the meeting, at the corps

2 commanders, this was discussed and the unit commanders and all of those

3 subordinated persons who were present at the meeting had to write this

4 down in their official notebooks and this was later an official document

5 for command and control and for ongoing duties.

6 Q. Yes. Thank you. You can put that document away there but could

7 that be made P1576, please?

8 And now can we move, please n your work notebook to the 9th of

9 January, our page 28, but the part that I just want to ask you about is

10 our page -- our page 30. Can you find the entry under the third fuel

11 depot. Have you written, "Some of the troops --" well, I'm sorry. Can

12 you read that sentence which begins, "Some of the troops," and it's to do

13 with ethnic -- I'm sorry.

14 A. On the 9th, just one moment, please. Yes. Yes. There are two.

15 I apologise.

16 Q. There is a paragraph 3, third fuel depot.

17 A. Yes, yes, yes. I found it.

18 Q. Can you just read the entry that begins, "Some of the troops"?

19 A. "Some of unemployed letting people go home."

20 Q. No.

21 A. "Unemployed" -- I don't have "some of the troops." Maybe it's a

22 mistake. Oh, yes, yes, yes. "Some of the troops working because of

23 ethnic grounds."

24 Q. And what did you mean by that?

25 A. This is the reporting of commanders who are subordinated to me. So

Page 13003

1 this third fuel depot and other fuels was in Jajce. The commander the

2 warehouse, Major Vojo Musunski from Macedonia, reports to me, and from his

3 I noted down that some of the troops were working because of ethnic

4 grounds. So these are some troops in our -- in his unit, who are already

5 divided along ethnic lines. And this is what he talked about.

6 Q. Had that happened before the conflict broke out in Croatia, that

7 troops of different ethnicities grouped themselves together?

8 A. No. Before the war in Croatia, soldiers, young men of 18,

9 socialised according to their preferences. They did socialise, of course,

10 if they happened to be from the same area. For example, Macedonia and

11 socialised with Macedonians because of their common habits. But along

12 ethnic lines, it was something that was problematic and it wasn't really

13 permitted.

14 Q. Right. And then can you move, then, please, to the 16th of

15 January? Page 40 for us.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. We see an entry under the introduction that relates apparently to

18 an armoured battalion from Pancevo?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you just tell us where was that? Where did this battalion

21 come from?

22 A. The armoured battalion was from Pancevo, Serbia. And it was

23 resubordinated to the units that fought against the Croat forces in Kupres

24 and at Lake Plitvice in Croatia. The commander of this group was Colonel

25 Vitomir Grujic who was serving in Banja Luka at the time.

Page 13004

1 Q. All right. And on this point of units coming from Serbia to

2 fight, could you find, please, under your paragraph 2, and it's at our

3 page 42, a part dealing with those units from Serbia? It starts,

4 "Reception of the units from Serbia."

5 A. Yes. I remember that. Yes. I've found it.

6 Q. We can see it talks about their lack of material and providing

7 them with equipment. To try and shorten this, was the fact there that

8 these people were arriving without proper equipment, you had to provide it

9 for them, or your logistics unit, and then when they left the front line,

10 in other words they deserted, they took this equipment with them?

11 A. May I give a broader explanation regarding this particular case?

12 Q. If you can keep it quite short.

13 A. Well, in a few sentences.

14 Q. All right. Yes.

15 A. The mechanised brigade from Loznica, Serbia, passed through Banja

16 Luka during those days. Behind the vehicles of the brigade was a column

17 of over 100 trucks with trailers that were completely empty. The brigade

18 was marching towards Croatia, towards Karlovac. A few days later, after

19 they had carried out combat operations in Croatia, the brigade sustained

20 major losses, left the positions in Croatia, and returned with empty

21 trucks to Serbia. Among the citizens of Banja Luka, this caused

22 bitterness, this kind of behaviour did. But this is not the only case of

23 such behaviour of these units that came, not only to fight but also to

24 loot the property of the population that lived there.

25 Q. Right. We'll see an entry relating to that. But what was the

Page 13005

1 significance that they returned with empty trucks to Serbia?

2 A. The significance is that they had planned to have war booty. I

3 mean, I'm calling it the spoils of war under quotation marks because it's

4 sheer looting. There is no logic involved in this. Why would trucks go?

5 Because for all logistics purposes, there was this logistics base that I

6 had headed.

7 Q. Right. I understand, Colonel Selak. What you're saying is they

8 brought empty trucks to collect war booty, but in actual fact they didn't

9 get any?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. So it was the fact that these people were trying to

12 collect war booty that was causing the resentment?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And indeed can we look finally on this entry and we'll move

15 forward to the next month to your conclusion, our page 43? Paragraph 3 of

16 your conclusion, "The war booty was never entered in the books and my

17 personal opinion is that this matter should be looked into by the military

18 organisations."

19 A. Yes. The war booty, let me call it that way rather than plunder,

20 I mean I'm talking about ammunition, about weapons, fuel, medicine. The

21 official organs at the logistics base had to have a look to record

22 everything, to register it properly in the books, and also they should

23 keep whatever is in good condition and get rid of whatever was in improper

24 condition. Unfortunately, the corps units never handed in a single

25 bullet, to my organs.

Page 13006

1 Q. Now --

2 A. They themselves disposed of this.

3 Q. Colonel Selak, you were actually living in Banja Luka at this

4 period of time. What was the behaviour of these returning soldiers like

5 when they passed through Banja Luka?

6 A. The units that marched through Banja Luka -- actually these

7 soldiers were on trucks. They did not take any breaks in the area of

8 Banja Luka itself. So there were no contacts with these soldiers, with

9 the officers. But the people threw stones at them.

10 Q. All right. Let's move on. Thank you. Can we look, please, at

11 the 24th of February?

12 MS. KORNER: Our page 66, Your Honour, although it's actually at

13 page 68 that I want to look at.

14 Q. Could you find, Colonel Selak, your entry for that date, the 24th,

15 under the second ammunition depot section?

16 A. This is a department of the fuel depot in Donji Vakuf,

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina,

18 THE INTERPRETER: Ammunition depot, interpreter's correction.


20 Q. And what have you recorded under there?

21 A. I called the commander of this depot, Lieutenant Savic, to come

22 and report to me.

23 Q. No. I think there may be a problem with interpretation. All I

24 want -- it's my fault for using the word "recorded." What did you write

25 immediately underneath the words, "Second ammunition depot section"?

Page 13007

1 A. The Serb Municipality of Donji Vakuf proclaimed."

2 Q. Was that reported to you by one of your officers?

3 A. That's just what I wanted to say. Lieutenant Savic was commander

4 of that depot.

5 Q. Right. When you heard this news, what was your reaction to the

6 news that a Serbian municipality had been declared in Donji Vakuf?

7 A. I was in the municipality of Donji Vakuf very often. I knew the

8 situation in the municipality. And this surprised me very much. However,

9 this is also the result of the following: The records of the Territorial

10 Defence unit were taken away by the SDS, and weapons were received by Serb

11 military conscripts only.

12 Q. How did you find out about that?

13 A. That is what the President of the municipality told me,

14 Kemal Terzic.

15 Q. And then can we just deal with one further entry for that page?

16 It appears that near a sawmill on the road to Slatina, roadblocks had been

17 set up. Was that anything to do with the takeover of the municipality --

18 or the declaration of the Serbian municipality, or was that a separate

19 incident?

20 A. This is not separate from the takeover of the municipality or the

21 declaration of the Serbian municipality. A roadblock was put so that

22 vehicles could not pass. I believe that this was done out of fear, in

23 order to keep the population safe, that is. However, the police reacted

24 and the roadblock was removed.

25 Q. And can you remember, I mean, who had set up the roadblock? Was

Page 13008

1 is the Serbs or the Bosniaks, the Muslims?

2 A. I think that it was the Bosniaks, the Muslims.

3 Q. Because --

4 A. I think that the ethnic pattern was more or less the same in this

5 municipality. There were only 4 per cent Croats and the Serbs and Muslims

6 were more or less there in the same numbers.

7 Q. Okay. Can we move from there quite substantially on in your

8 notebook, please, just to note, please, this is the 11th of March, page

9 84, and the entry at page 85? Was this entry concerned --

10 A. Just a minute, please.

11 Q. Sorry.

12 A. I have the 12th of March. Yes, yes, do I have something on the

13 11th of March, yes, that's right, all right.

14 Q. There is a discussion with the liaison group for cooperation in

15 logistics with the UN peacekeeping force. Was that at the time that you

16 were appointed the liaison officer with the UN peacekeeping forces?

17 A. Yes, yes. I was head of that group.

18 Q. And can you just tell us how long did you remain the officer in

19 charge of liaison?

20 A. I took over that duty sometime in the beginning of the month of

21 February, and I handed it over towards the end of March. So it was less

22 than two months altogether.

23 Q. Do you know why you had to relinquish that position?

24 A. There was a meeting at President Radic's. Mr. Brdjanin also

25 attended the meeting. What was discussed was the deployment of officers,

Page 13009












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13 English transcripts.













Page 13010

1 or rather UN forces, in the area of Banja Luka. President Radic offered

2 the Palace Hotel for accommodating these officers, and the building of the

3 retirees' home on the banks of the Vrbas River, which had not been

4 completed yet.

5 In order to cover the expenses for using these facilities, they

6 asked for 2 million dollars, U.S. dollars. The officers of the UN forces

7 did not wish to accept that. It was not logical either. I was also

8 opposed to that. I suggested that they be accommodated at the

9 Mladjan Stojanovic barracks where the military academy used to be, or the

10 so-called Rakovacke Bare which is where Territorial Defence units were put

11 up. After that, there was a clash. This position of mine was resented,

12 and I was replaced from that particular duty.

13 Q. What was Mr. Brdjanin's attitude on this?

14 A. I cannot recall his words, but they were in favour of the Hotel

15 Palace and the retirees' home. This position of theirs was logical to me

16 because they wanted these facilities to be paid for well so this would

17 improve their finances, but there was no logic in terms of this from a

18 military point of view. The UN officers insisted that they should be

19 close to their soldiers, which is only logical.

20 Q. Was anybody else from your corps there, any senior officers? Or

21 was it just you, the UN officers, Mr. Radic and Mr. Brdjanin?

22 A. I cannot remember who else was there. There were other persons

23 there. This was at the Office of the President of the municipality.

24 There were several of us there. I did not write down, though, who all the

25 persons present were. So I cannot remember.

Page 13011

1 Q. Right. How long after that were you removed?

2 A. This was the 11th of March, and by the end of March, I had been

3 removed. I have a document on my replacement. I have it here in my bag.

4 So I was returned to my duty as head of the logistics base at Banja Luka.

5 Q. And how do you know that it had anything to do with the fact that

6 you were opposed to what Mr. Brdjanin and Mr. Radic wanted, namely that,

7 you know, the UN should pay a couple of million dollars for their

8 accommodation?

9 A. I knew President Radic from before, and after this,

10 President Radic really held this against me, and he said to me that Banja

11 Luka had lost 2 million dollars because of my point of view. It was my

12 own assessment that this was one of the reasons why I was replaced -- I

13 say one of the reasons.

14 Allow me to note another thing: That the battalion of the

15 logistics forces of the UN, after that, was stationed in Pancevo, near

16 Belgrade. The security centre in Pancevo was moved out and the battalion

17 of the logistics forces of the UN moved in.

18 Q. Right. I see. I'm sorry, I thought it was -- can I stick for a

19 moment with the question of your removal? Would President Radic have had

20 influence with your command to have you removed?

21 A. President Radic personally could not have done that. He presented

22 his point of view. He presented this information as to what had happened.

23 Q. I understand that. You've explained that a politician couldn't

24 order the removal or order a change of duty. But would a politician in

25 that position be listened to in respect of the views and therefore the

Page 13012

1 military would then take a decision based on those views?

2 A. I have information that the command of the Banja Luka Corps,

3 before the group for cooperation with the UN was set up, had suggested

4 that Colonel Vaso Tepsic be head of this group, instead of me.

5 Q. Can I stop you for a moment, Colonel Selak? Is this going to be

6 an answer to my question? Because the question was quite

7 straightforward. It is: Would a politician, leader of a municipality,

8 have influence, be listened to, in respect of his views so that the

9 military would take a decision based on those views?

10 A. Objectively speaking, no, but he had a greater influence in the

11 military, in the corps.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, let me try and help a little bit.

13 Ms. Korner -- Colonel, Ms. Korner pointed out to you that in

14 general terms, a politician would never be in a position to directly sack

15 or -- a military officer, or move him from one position to another.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: However --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: However, her next point was: Would the politician,

20 however, be able to bear influence on the military authorities to do what

21 the politician wouldn't be able to do? In other words, to sack or to move

22 the military officer?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 MS. KORNER: Thank you for that. Thank you very much, Your

25 Honour. All right.

Page 13013

1 Q. Now, Colonel, there is one other person I wanted to ask you about

2 in that entry.

3 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, before we move on, otherwise

4 I will forget, we've got the original of this document Mr. Ackerman asked

5 about from the evidence unit, and it's the -- the underlining has clearly

6 been done by them, so it's not a photocopy that has been marked by us. I

7 don't know if Mr. Ackerman wants to have a look at the original.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: That's with regard to. That's are regard to P1576,

10 correct?

11 MS. KORNER: Correct.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: When she says the underlining has clear by been

13 done by them, who is it she is speaking of, do you know?

14 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, when I say "them," it's not been

15 underlined by a lawyer in the reading of this document. This is how the

16 document was acquired by the institution. So I can't say who underlined

17 it, but it wasn't us. "Us" being the OTP.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Can I be reminded of the exhibit number? I want to

19 look at something for just a second.

20 MS. KORNER: P1576.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: I found it. I found it. Okay.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's move forward.

23 MS. KORNER: Right.

24 Q. Can we now look, please, at another document, following through

25 the progression of things.

Page 13014

1 MS. KORNER: Because, I'm going to move from there until another

2 date in April. Could you be handed, please, what was Exhibit 165 in the

3 Tadic case.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we saw that yesterday.

5 MS. KORNER: I don't think so, Your Honour. It's date -- a

6 document dated the 8th of April, headed, "2nd Military District command."

7 The only Tadic exhibits I looked at I think were all the various diagrams.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Disclosure number?

9 MS. KORNER: No disclosure number. It was attached -- it may have

10 been disclosed -- it could have been disclosed before but it was actually

11 attached to the Tadic transcript. If you've got the Tadic transcript with

12 the bundle of exhibits, it was attached to that. We can put the English

13 versions -- the English version is on the ELMO, in any event.

14 Q. Colonel Selak, this is addressed, it's from the 2nd Military

15 District command, addressed to the 5th and other commands plus the

16 logistic base commands. Did you see this order from commander General

17 Kukanjac at the time? In other words in April, 1992?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And it's effectively, if we can summarise it, it's moving,

20 relocating, the units and institution on the territory of the -- I think

21 the RS Krajina, which is the Croatian Krajina, is it not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And just very briefly, what was this document -- what was the

24 purpose of this document?

25 A. The units of the 2nd army or rather the 5th Corps in Banja Luka

Page 13015

1 that were stationed in Croatia had to withdraw from the areas where the UN

2 units would be deployed.

3 Q. Did this have any practical effect?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. As far as you -- and what was that?

6 A. There was a meeting of the corps commanders and we were entrusted

7 with the following task: The units of the JNA and the TO that remained in

8 Slavonia were supposed to provide logistics to the units of the 2nd

9 Military District in Sarajevo. And thereby, the 5th Corps in Banja Luka

10 and also the logistics base in Banja Luka.

11 Q. And did they go to Sarajevo?

12 A. No. The units did not go to Sarajevo. They remained in other

13 areas, and we gave them logistic support.

14 Q. Thank you. All right.

15 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, that better have a new

16 exhibit number. 1577.

17 Q. Now, can we look, please, at your workbook, your official

18 notebook, for the 9th of April, the following day? Did you have a meeting

19 with the President of the Donji Vakuf of the municipal assembly?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was this -- I don't know, had by that stage a Serbian assembly

22 been declared or was this still the official, proper assembly president?

23 A. Mr. Kemal Terzic was the official president of the municipal

24 assembly of Donji Vakuf at that time.

25 Q. And was this -- you've told us that one of your duties and the

Page 13016

1 duties of the army generally was to cooperate and maintain relationships

2 with the political leaders, the local ones. Was this a regular visit?

3 A. Yes. It was my duty to regularly visit the organs of authority in

4 the municipality, the President of the municipality, the chief of the SUP

5 and others, so that was my obligation, and on the 9th of April, I was

6 visiting the President of Donji Vakuf.

7 Q. And he was telling you, was he, about the Muslims standing guard,

8 that there weren't any barricades, that and there were checks going on but

9 that there were also incidents? What did he want you to do, if anything,

10 Mr. Terzic?

11 A. From my notebook, where I wrote down about that meeting, I can see

12 that the President informed me about the political and security situation

13 in the municipality. He also mentioned the barricades, their removal, the

14 guards, that there was shooting.

15 Q. I'm sorry, can I stop you, Colonel Selak? He was giving you a

16 report of what happened. Did he want you to do anything about it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what was that?

19 A. Yes. He asked for the army to intervene, to resolve that, to help

20 with the settlement of the security situation in his municipality.

21 Q. In normal circumstances, if a president of a municipality made

22 such a request, would the army assist?

23 A. In normal circumstances, the police should have intervened and

24 only if the police did not have enough forces, then they should have asked

25 for help from the authorised bodies of the Republic of

Page 13017

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And if then they couldn't resolve it either, then the

2 army would have to get involved in the resolution of the situation. I

3 personally at that time was not able to help him, but I did tell him that

4 I would come with Colonel Galic, the commander of the 30th Division, to

5 see what could be done regarding this matter.

6 Q. Yes. And we'll see that you -- there was such a meeting a little

7 later. I'm very sorry, can I just go back, please, to an entry in your

8 diary for the 11th of March. There was one person I meant to ask you

9 about. Page 84 of Your Honours' bundle.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. There is an entry, I can never do this one, Sasa the year of 1990?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I don't think I'm particularly interested in what it's about.

14 There is a name there, Miroslav Majstorovic, Lieutenant Colonel, security

15 organ?

16 A. Lieutenant Colonel.

17 Q. Right. What did I say? Who was he? I can see he was security

18 organs. But what was the meeting there about?

19 A. Lieutenant Colonel in charge of security was from the operative

20 group, from Croatia. I don't know why I noted down his name here, and his

21 telephone number. It was probably something about personnel, about his

22 assignment, and about eight officers were with him and three civilians,

23 who came. I believe that later, they went to the 30th Partisan division.

24 Q. All right. All I want to know is: Do you know what he did during

25 the period of the conflict between May and August of 1992? Do you know

Page 13018

1 where he was?

2 A. I think that he was in the 30th Partisan Division but I'm not

3 sure, because based on this information, all the officers who came to that

4 area were assigned to different duties. I didn't have time to really have

5 so much contact with them.

6 Q. All right. So you didn't hear of him in particular as to where he

7 was during that period? If you didn't -- I don't think you did say so.

8 A. No. I don't know.

9 Q. All right. I'm sorry to go back. I just wanted to ask about

10 that.

11 Now, still sticking to that, can we look -- this is the same day,

12 the 9th of April. Did you also pay a visit to Jajce?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, I don't -- because we are not dealing with the events in

15 Jajce at all in this case, but there, do you record that a Crisis Staff

16 had been established?

17 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, this is page 90, Your Honours.

18 A. Yes.


20 Q. Which contained representatives of each of the ethnic groups?

21 A. Yes. There were three representing each of the ethnic groups;

22 three Croats, three Bosniaks, and three Serbs.

23 Q. And had this been set up I'm just summarising - it's in the entry

24 so we all understand it - because there had been an incident involving a

25 bus where people had been killed by a -- I think a Croat police officer?

Page 13019

1 We can see a list at the end of your entry of people -- soldiers killed.

2 A. When the murder of these soldiers occurred, the bus was going from

3 Banja Luka to Bugojno. So when this soldier was killed, the seven

4 soldiers were killed, I went and I demanded that this be investigated

5 urgently, and that information be conveyed about the situation in Jajce.

6 Allow me to explain. At the Barevo checkpoint --

7 Q. Sorry, Colonel Selak, because we are not dealing with Jajce. We

8 just wanted so if anybody looked at that entry we would understand what it

9 meant. Sorry.

10 A. I apologise.

11 Q. No. Could you move, please, now to the 13th of April. And there

12 are a number of entries, I think that you made there. Our page 95.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, is the beginning -- is the first entry there, there is a

15 meeting with the base command organs?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I only want to ask you about an entry, it's our page 94, but I

18 think it's been written at the top -- the bottom of that page, where

19 you've written the name Kupresanin and some numbers.

20 A. Yes. These are the telephone numbers of Mr. Kupresanin at that

21 time, and I noted that down.

22 Q. Can you remember why that was?

23 A. Mr. Kupresanin called me on the telephone. He had a problem with

24 fuel for agricultural machinery in the municipality of Srbac, and he asked

25 me to provide one cistern of fuel for agricultural works to be carried

Page 13020












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13 English transcripts.













Page 13021

1 out, and that he would then later either return that to me or pay for it.

2 So I issued an order for the fuel to be given, and at that point, we

3 exchanged our telephone numbers. But the fuel was never returned or paid

4 for. But that is not the most important thing here.

5 Q. No. The reason I'm asking you about that is this: That -- did it

6 happen from time to time, or regularly, that politicians, leaders, would

7 speak to you about supplies?

8 A. Yes. Supplies of material were discussed, which was located in

9 the territory of the municipalities and which were used by the army.

10 There was never any discussion about military materiel in military

11 warehouses. They knew that they should not ask me about that, and really,

12 they did not ask me about that. But I --

13 Q. I think you misunderstand. What you're saying here is

14 Mr. Kupresanin asking you for fuel for Srbac which I think is where he

15 came from. What I want to know is: Were there other requests from other

16 politicians --

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, could we suspend the sitting for a few

19 minutes, please?

20 MS. KORNER: Certainly. Does Your Honour wish to take the break

21 now and then we can come back?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We could do that.

23 MS. KORNER: And come back at --


25 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

Page 13022

1 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.


4 Q. Colonel Selak, could you now find in your diary, still for the

5 13th of April, an official interview with a Captain Redzo Trako?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Our page 95. Now, was it part of your duties to deal with the

8 disciplinary aspect of officers within your command?

9 A. Yes. That was my duty.

10 Q. Now, this Captain First Class, what nationality was he? What

11 ethnicity?

12 A. Bosniak.

13 Q. And he was being interviewed that day about his attitude towards

14 the JNA and the Serbs?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And did you then make a note of some of the things that he was

17 saying?

18 A. Yes. I wrote down in my official notebook what he said.

19 Q. He told you that for him, the army he loved is dying, and then he

20 gave -- said this: "The attitude of the organs of the SOS in Banja Luka

21 towards the JNA, a rifle, a beard, a bottle of brandy, wanting to check

22 military vehicles to see what is being transported." What was his

23 complaint there about the SOS?

24 A. He complained about the conduct of the Serb Defence forces around

25 town, that they carried weapons, that they were growing beards, and beards

Page 13023

1 associate people with Chetniks, that they were under the influence of

2 alcohol, and that this was something that bothered him, and that those

3 people wanted to have -- wanted to control military vehicles. They wanted

4 to check what was being driven in those vehicles.

5 Q. And what was his view about what the JNA should have been doing?

6 A. He also made an oath to the Yugoslav People's Army. He came out

7 stating that he respected the laws of that army, and that what was

8 happening now was not that army.

9 Q. Yeah. What did he think, and specifically, that the JNA should

10 have been doing in respect of the behaviour of the SOS forces?

11 A. He wanted this to be resolved so that life could return to normal

12 in the town of Banja Luka. That was the essence of what he said. He

13 provided also some specific information about the conduct of some other

14 people.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. This conversation was attended by --

17 Q. Yes. I'm sorry, Colonel Selak, I'm going to deal with each of the

18 things he said in turn. In the next part of your entry, there is a

19 reference to Vojo Kupresanin calling a Captain First Class Radan from

20 Mrkonjic Grad. What's that referring to?

21 A. I didn't know that he had this information or where he got it

22 from. This was on the 13th of April, that he had a conversation with

23 Mr. Kupresanin and this person Captain First Class Bulajic. I wasn't

24 interested in the topic of their conversation, and I didn't discuss it any

25 further.

Page 13024

1 Q. But can you -- I know it's a long time ago. Can you remember what

2 his complaint was in respect of Vojo Kupresanin calling the Captain First

3 Class Radan?

4 A. Captain First Class Bulajic from Mrkonjic Grad was in my

5 ammunition depot in Mrkonjic Grad, and there were allegedly some problems,

6 that he was carrying flags and that he was forming some kind of an

7 organisation or organising in some way within the unit, and this is what

8 was discussed.

9 Q. And was the --

10 A. I don't know the details.

11 Q. But can you remember this: Was the reference to Vojo Kupresanin

12 that it was Vojo Kupresanin who was inciting this captain to do these

13 activities?

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't think there is anything in

15 here that says anything about anybody inciting anybody. I think that's

16 Ms. Korner's spin on it.

17 MS. KORNER: I agree, Your Honour, but what I'm trying to

18 understand is what it is that Vojo Kupresanin was alleged to have done.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: And he's now told her twice that he doesn't know.

20 MS. KORNER: No, he hasn't, Your Honour, with respect.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Put the question again. Thank you.


23 Q. What was your understanding of what Vojo Kupresanin's calling this

24 captain had to do with what the man you were interviewing was complaining

25 about?

Page 13025

1 A. I took it as a criticism of why a politician of the rank of Vojo

2 Kupresanin should call a captain in the ammunition depot in Mrkonjic Grad,

3 because they have nothing official to discuss, and he took that as a

4 problem. And it was a problem. There is a regular line of communication,

5 which was not respected.

6 Q. If Vojo Kupresanin wanted to contact someone in the army

7 hierarchy, who should he have been dealing with?

8 A. He should have contacted first, if he was an officer from my unit,

9 he should have contacted me first, and explained the reasons why it was

10 necessary to communicate, and then this would be resolved.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, it's still a little bit unclear in my

12 mind, because although according to the record here, it's Vojo Kupresanin

13 who was calling Captain Radan, it's the interview was conducted by an army

14 officer by Captain First Class Bulajic. So perhaps the witness could

15 enlighten us on who would have given the authority to Captain Bulajic to

16 interview Captain Radan. And in addition, if this Captain Radan was not

17 interviewed by Vojo Kupresanin but by Captain Bulajic, would he stand by

18 what he said, that they had nothing to discuss? Because it doesn't seem

19 to me that a discussion did take place between Captain Radan and Vojo

20 Kupresanin but between Captain Radan and Captain Bulajic and in the form

21 of an interview.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think we better go through this entry

23 completely.

24 Q. Captain Selak, who did Vojo Kupresanin call?

25 A. From what is written down in the diary it seems as if Kupresanin

Page 13026

1 called Captain Radan who was in Mrkonjic Grad at the depot. I added -- I

2 put a question mark here next to that conversation, and added,

3 "Conversation by Captain First Class Bulajic." The -- talks of this kind

4 are not permitted. They are not in accordance with the regulations. And

5 Captain Trako noticed this and that is why he informed me about it.

6 Q. So your record says, "Conversation," does it,"conducted by Captain

7 First Class Bulajic"?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who did Captain First Class Bulajic have a conversation with?

10 A. Judging by what is written, it seems as if he talked with Radan.

11 But it is not clear to me, so I didn't really insist, because I discussed

12 other matters with Captain Trako, so I didn't really go into any detail

13 about this.

14 Q. All right.

15 MS. KORNER: I think, Your Honour, that's as far as we can take

16 this.

17 Q. Just finally this, though. From your knowledge of Captain First

18 Class Radan, what were his views in respect of nationalism?

19 A. Captain Radan had a problem. He placed the SDS flag on a hill

20 above the depot. I found the flag before that at the barracks in Mrkonjic

21 and demanded that party flags not be hoisted in the barracks, that they

22 had to be on buildings where this was permitted, but not in military

23 buildings or facilities. Radan took the flag down and took it up to the

24 hill and hoisted it up there.

25 Q. All right. I think that is the answer.

Page 13027

1 Could you tell us what the next entry refers to? "It should be

2 made clear whether there is a place -- there is place in the Krajina which

3 has Colonel Subotic as its Defence Minister or not."

4 A. The captain knew that Colonel Subotic trained paramilitary

5 formations at Manjaca, and this Subotic became the Minister of Defence of

6 the Army of Republika Srpska. That is how I understood it from this

7 information here. And we didn't discuss anything further about that.

8 Q. Over the page, which is for us, the next thing he complained about

9 was that he still believed that Biljana Plavsic had kissed Arkan?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was that in reference to the famous incident where she was alleged

12 to have kissed Arkan?

13 A. Yes. That refers to the incident near Brcko, because this was on

14 television, this event.

15 Q. And could you just read what the next words you put down in your

16 notebook are after the word "Arkan"?

17 A. "And that Izetbegovic was making deals with terrorists."

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Singular or plural?

19 THE INTERPRETER: With saboteurs.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Singular or plural? Because here it's in the

21 singular and the interpreter is saying it is in the plural, terrorists.

22 MS. KORNER: Or saboteurs.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Or saboteurs, yeah.

24 A. I wrote down a saboteur, singular.


Page 13028

1 Q. So he was complaining to you as well about what he believed to be

2 the activities of Mr. Izetbegovic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then he talked about someone calling his wife at Donji Vakuf

5 to tell her that Muslims have been on the prowl slaughtering people, and

6 during the same night, Serbs leave Donji Vakuf. What ethnicity was this

7 captain's wife?

8 A. Captain Trako's wife was a Serb, from Daruvar, from Croatia.

9 Q. Was he saying that somebody called Kondic was effectively telling

10 his wife that it was Muslims going around slaughtering people?

11 A. Yes. Kondic was a NCO. He handled ammunition in Donji Vakuf.

12 Q. But then he said he found it hard to see people coming to the

13 office wearing non-JNA insignia. Was that something you yourself had

14 noticed?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What sort of insignia are we talking about?

17 A. Insignia meaning affiliation to certain armed formations. There

18 were party insignia, just like we, the other officers, noticed. And he

19 said here that he found that to be very difficult for him, that people

20 entered his office with insignia that did not belong to the Yugoslav army.

21 Q. And finally, he said, "The Muslim people are certainly for

22 Yugoslavia." You told us that you were also for a Yugoslavia. Did he

23 share your views?

24 A. His wife was a Serb, so he had a Yugoslav orientation, that's the

25 way he felt. I was also in favour of Yugoslavia. He was sincere over

Page 13029

1 here and that is why he stated his views clearly.

2 Q. And then he -- he -- was this a fellow officer who was with you, a

3 Mr. Stamenkovic?

4 A. Yes. Lieutenant Colonel Stamenkovic was Captain Trako's superior

5 officer and Lieutenant Colonel Stamenkovic asked for this conversation to

6 take place, because Trako's views differed from the official policy that

7 was then pursued within the army.

8 Q. I'll come back to that in a moment, but he ended, Trako, I see, by

9 saying that he had to pass through Donji Vakuf and some people couldn't.

10 And then "Serbs, Croats and Muslims can and must live together in BH".

11 Now, you say his view --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- differed from the official policy that was then pursued within

14 the army. What was the difference between his views and the official

15 policy?

16 A. Lieutenant Colonel Stamenkovic on a few occasions informed me that

17 he had problems with Captain Trako with regard to some matters. Trako was

18 a specialist, an engineer for ammunition and for grenades and explosives.

19 As an expert, he toured all the depots and warehouses and was responsible

20 for ammunition. He saw many things that the army did, in terms of arms

21 and ammunition issuance, and he reacted openly when he met up with

22 officers at the command. This deviated from the official stand of the

23 army at the time.

24 Q. Which was what?

25 A. The stand taken by the army was in favour of Yugoslavia. However,

Page 13030

1 behaviour within the army at that time, in the Banja Luka Corps, in the

2 field, in Krajina, gatherings of the members of one ethnic group only

3 really bothered everyone who was truly in favour of Yugoslavia.

4 Q. By April of 1992, is what you're saying that, although the

5 official policy was to stay in an ethnically-mixed Yugoslavia, the reality

6 was that one ethnic group was being favoured by the army?

7 A. Yes, because its ethnic composition was such. 90.5 per cent of

8 the officers were Serbs and Montenegrins, so the army stood by the people,

9 the ethnicity that the majority of its personnel belonged to.

10 Q. Yes. Thank you. Now, on our same page, do you -- but also in

11 your diary, do you -- I'm sorry, notebook -- do you record a meeting that

12 you had arranged at the Donji Vakuf Municipal Assembly which was

13 attended -- and also the Bugojno Municipal Assembly attended by the 30th

14 division, commander Colonel Galic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And I don't think I need go through it. I think you recorded that

17 all the matters that the President raised and Galic's response to it?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. And you recorded at the end of your entry your conclusions.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, I'd like you now to please have a look at a document that's

22 dated the following day, the 14th of April. It's attachment 4 to the

23 statement of the 13th of July, 2000.

24 A. Item 4, you mean?

25 Q. No, not your official book. This is a different document,

Page 13031












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13 English transcripts.













Page 13032

1 Colonel Selak. You're going to be given it.

2 A. I beg your pardon.

3 Q. It's dated the 14th of April. Now, this is a document I think

4 signed on behalf of General Talic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it's addressed to the command of a number of different units

7 under his command, and does it include your command at the end, logistics

8 base?

9 A. Yes. 993rd logistics base in Banja Luka.

10 Q. Did you see this document, then, at the time it was sent?

11 A. I don't remember this document, although all official

12 correspondence was supposed to come to my desk. However, I cannot

13 remember this document.

14 Q. Well, let's have a look at the contents. It's a report on the

15 developments of the 2nd Military District, and it states that "Anti-army

16 propaganda has reached unprecedented dimensions. This propaganda is led

17 by the SDA and Alija Izetbegovic personally. Since the start of April,

18 1992, military facilities, army flats, and army members have been targeted

19 by paramilitary formations."

20 Now, was that correct?

21 A. No. This is not true.

22 Q. Then it talks about the Bosnia-Herzegovina republican Territorial

23 Defence staff being formed by officers who betrayed the JNA. "This action

24 was unconstitutional and illegal. Some of these subordinate staffs sided

25 with the BH traitors. Some still have not declared which side they are

Page 13033

1 on, and some have sided with the JNA."

2 What was that a reference to?

3 A. This was a reference to the following: That the Republic of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo declared mobilisation of the Territorial

5 Defence units and it had the right to do so, according to the

6 constitution. However, the assembly of the SFRY in 1990 passed a decision

7 that the weapons of the Territorial Defence be withdrawn into army weapons

8 depots, which was against the constitution because Territorial Defence

9 units were organised at the level of the republics, not at federal level.

10 Q. All right. So is the complaint here or what's being alleged here

11 is that the declaration by the Bosnia-Herzegovina republic was illegal and

12 that any JNA officer who responded was behaving illegally?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Then if we look, please, at the next, the media, "Sarajevo TV in

15 particular are run and their editorial policy is determined by our

16 adversaries. They refuse to accept many truths and are appearances, since

17 that would reveal their bestiality to the public."

18 Who was Major General Talic describing as an adversary?

19 A. He wrote the government of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

20 its institutions in Sarajevo. However, may I say that in this

21 information, he is talking about what happened in the Serb Republic of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina in the 2nd Military District and the 5th Corps. He

23 does not talk about Bosnia-Herzegovina. He talks about the Serb Republic

24 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. He uses the expression "bestiality," and I think again when

Page 13034

1 describing a Colonel Karic. Was that language that you had seen before in

2 a -- being used in an official document?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What -- since when had those sort of expressions been used?

5 A. On Radio Banja Luka and Banja Luka Television, I heard and saw

6 that Colonel Karic, was seriously criticised for having placed himself on

7 the side of the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he was

8 always referred to as a traitor.

9 Q. But the expression -- the use of the language or the use of the

10 word "bestiality" was that the sort of word that you would expect the

11 commander of the 5th Corps to use in an official document?

12 A. No. This expression is indeed most uncouth. I don't remember

13 ever having used it in my own speech. It is most uncouth.

14 Q. And finally, please, on this document, could you turn to paragraph

15 8?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. "Colonel Petar Spasojevic will talk to the commanders and commands

18 of subordinated municipal Territorial Defence staffs to determine whose

19 side they are on. Staffs that refuse to carry out orders shall be

20 disbanded and new staffs shall be formed in their place. Written reports

21 describing the situation in the municipal staffs shall be submitted by the

22 16th of April, 1992."

23 First, under whose authority did the municipal Territorial Defence

24 staff act?

25 A. Colonel Spasojevic was commander of the Territorial Defence staff,

Page 13035

1 the joint Territorial Defence staff, and he was in charge of commanding

2 these staffs. It is shown quite clearly here that the corps commander had

3 the power of issuing orders, namely to command TO staffs as well, because

4 he is giving orders to Colonel Spasojevic.

5 Q. Was Colonel Spasojevic a regular JNA officer?

6 A. An active-duty officer. For a while, he was commander of the

7 armoured brigade in Banja Luka. He's a Serb.

8 Q. And in asking whose side they are on, what did you understand that

9 to mean?

10 A. That they should be ethnically established, that they should be

11 Serb staffs without Muslims and Croats.

12 Q. All right. And then finally, on the last page, is there a

13 distribution list?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Handwritten?

16 A. Yes. Somebody wrote on the last page who copies were sent to.

17 Q. Okay. Does that include what is described as the Volunteer

18 Battalion?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know what that Volunteer Battalion was?

21 A. I don't know. I mean, I knew that it existed but where it was

22 located is something that I never found out.

23 Q. Thank you very much. That's all we need with that document.

24 MS. KORNER: That's P1578, please.

25 I would now like to go back, please, to your notebook, work

Page 13036

1 record, whatever one is calling it. Could we go, please, to the 28th of

2 April, please?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you had a meeting, did you there, with the assistant

5 commander?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was that Colonel Bosko Kelecevic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And there is a discussion there about a replacement of a

10 Lieutenant Colonel Mujagic, whose life had been threatened. Further down,

11 the request apparently came from the depot soldiers. What nationality was

12 Lieutenant Colonel Mujagic?

13 A. Lieutenant Colonel Mujagic was a Muslim, a Bosniak. He had a

14 master of sciences degree in the technical sciences.

15 Q. And his life had apparently been threatened. By whom had his life

16 been threatened?

17 A. His soldiers at the Krcmarica arms depot near Banja Luka, whose

18 commander he was, made these threats.

19 Q. Now, I want now to deal with the topic of the dismissals from the

20 army and the, as it were, exodus of non-Serbs from the army. This is

21 dated the 28th of April. Before that, had there been threats made to

22 officers of non-Serb ethnicity?

23 A. There were quite a few threats. People felt unsafe. Information

24 was received that officers who were Croats and Bosniaks would have to

25 leave the army in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that they were going to

Page 13037

1 Belgrade.

2 Q. And what were they going to Belgrade for?

3 A. To get new assignments, at the headquarters of the army of

4 Yugoslavia. They were deployed to menial jobs.

5 Q. Now, I want to start with a letter that you yourself wrote to the

6 2nd Military District commander.

7 MS. KORNER: Could he be handed that -- I don't know. It went

8 with a collection of newspaper articles, I think, but it's got a number in

9 the translation, of 00349310. Your Honour, we've got a spare copy here

10 but I think the Registrar is having difficulty. Usher, if you take that

11 place it on the ELMO because Mr. Ackerman doesn't have it.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have it, Mr. Ackerman? Okay.

14 MS. KORNER: We've given our copy to --



17 Q. It's not got a date on it, Colonel Selak, although we can see it

18 must have been sometime in May because it refers to articles. Can you

19 remember roughly when you wrote it?

20 A. This was the beginning of May, 1992.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think there is definitely a mistake.

22 I've noticed that one in the translation, that even I understand B/C/S, to

23 be the 26th of March, March, not May, I think. But anyhow, we'll read

24 through it.

25 Q. What you wrote, Colonel Selak, was this: "To the 2nd Military

Page 13038

1 District commander." Was that still General Kukanjac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. "I am applying to you as my commander not to protect my life and

4 the lives of my family because you cannot help me in that but to plead for

5 the protection of your officers' dignity, to demand that the JNA protect

6 its members from certain political parties which have the audacity to

7 openly threaten and order the members of other ethnic groups to leave the

8 army."

9 I'm going to pause there because we'll see what you were talking

10 about in a moment. "I have been subjected to similar threats before, but

11 by the end of last March, the threats to my person from the Banja Luka SDS

12 leaders became blatantly public. For instance, in the Banja Luka Glas

13 daily of 26th of March, and 6th April, and the Banja Luka Radio on the 5th

14 of April, 1992. I have enclosed a copy of the article."

15 What's the date there, 26th of what?

16 A. The 26th of April, no, no, no. The 5th. March, March, yes,

17 March. It was a slip.

18 Q. It's been wrongly translated in the -- in the 26th of March

19 edition, the same publication called all the JNA general staff traitors,

20 and in particular, "General Adzic, acting federal secretary for national

21 defence. Identical threats have been addressed to several Croat, Slovene

22 and Muslim officers. Is it possible that we are being called traitors,

23 are being denounced for not being loyal officers, whereas we could become

24 the nucleus for and an encouragement to other members of our ethnic groups

25 who must be recruited if we wish the army to remain a Yugoslav army and

Page 13039

1 become a nucleus around which a new union of Yugoslav peoples could be

2 created? If my organisation should fail to defend me, I am afraid that my

3 friends, people who know me, or even my colleagues from the JNA will

4 conclude that I must be a traitor to this army after all. I have known

5 and respected -- I have known you and respected you for a long time. That

6 is why I am writing to you, even though I know that you must have more

7 important concerns on your mind. Still, I ask that you believe me when I

8 say that this is not a small matter either. Please accept the assurance

9 of my respect."

10 Did you ever receive a response to your letter from the general?

11 A. No.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that then be made, please, Exhibit

13 P1579? And can we now look at the articles? Your Honour, the first is

14 headed, "The treachery of the general staff." It doesn't have a date in

15 the top, but it's Banja Luka 17th of March. And the subject is, "BH, SDS

16 officials call for removal of some army officers."

17 Q. Can you, Colonel Selak, please find the part of -- this is -- I'm

18 not sure we know what the publication is, but I think it's Glas because I

19 think we will see this gentleman writes for Glas?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What's the date, Banja Luka what, is it the 27th of March?

22 A. Banja Luka, the 27th of March, 1992.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, this is describing a news conference held today

24 by, that day, by Dr. Vukic, who was president of the regional board of the

25 SDS. Did you know Dr. Vukic? Had you met Dr. Vukic?

Page 13040

1 A. Yes. I knew him personally.

2 Q. He said that, "After Mesic" - is that Stipe Mesic - "Izetbegovic

3 was the second author, scenarist and director of Serbian death." To

4 continue, "The Yugoslav army, an internal aggressor is no different to the

5 base behaviour."

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] English, English. I don't have a

7 translation.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it okay now?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's okay now. It's okay now.


11 Q. I think we will leave that part. "Vukic said stressing that the

12 Serbian people of Bosanska Krajina and Bosnia-Herzegovina have been

13 sacrificed according to the same principle as the Serbian people in the

14 Serbian autonomous district of Krajina. The greatest treachery has come

15 from the general staff of the Yugoslav People's Army," Vukic claimed.

16 In his opinion, this is because "those who started the war and

17 forced Serbian children into the whirl wind of war are now peacemakers,"

18 et cetera. "The fact is the JNA no longer exists and it is also a fact

19 that Serbian children make up 90 per cent of the active combat forces of

20 the army which remains," and so on.

21 "Only the Banja Luka Corps remains - Dr. Vukic said - and many

22 people, including General Vasilavic, consider it to be the core of the

23 SDS. It is actually a SDS corps because it is made up of Serbs and will

24 be even more so when some officers are removed from the military command,

25 the Banja Luka Corps, and are sent home." Pausing there, Colonel Selak,

Page 13041

1 by March the 27th, was that in your view an accurate statement, that the

2 Banja Luka Corps had become effectively an SDS corps?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. "Colonel" I continue reading, "And little colonels from the

5 unsuccessful battlefields cannot be brought here because various Hasotics,

6 Selaks, and Ludinacs have been brought in to destroy the Banja Luka Corps

7 and impose themselves before Major General Momir Talic, who is the only

8 bright part of the Banja Luka Corps, Dr. Vukic said." And I think we can

9 leave out the next sentence.

10 "According to the President of the SDS regional board, the SDS,

11 the Banja Luka Corps, and the Serbian people of the Bosanska Krajina must

12 help Major General Talic survive the deceits in his command from the

13 failed generals in the general staff who have the assignment of destroying

14 the fabric of the Banja Luka Corps." And I don't think that we need

15 trouble with the end.

16 Now, the -- you and Colonel Hasotic who I think -- perhaps you

17 better tell us what his position was because I'm not sure I've asked you

18 about him before. What was his position in the Banja Luka Corps?

19 A. Colonel Hasotic, before this, was General Mladic's deputy for

20 morale in Knin, and he was performing the same duty in the Banja Luka

21 Corps until early August, 1992.

22 Q. And who was Ludinac?

23 A. Ludvik, he was Colonel Ludvik Kranjc. He was the chief of the

24 military academy in Banja Luka. And at this time, when this was written,

25 he was in the Banja Luka Corps, in the corps command, and he was part of

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13 English transcripts.













Page 13043

1 the operative and training department, he was from Slovenia.

2 Q. So he was a Slovenian. And what was Colonel Hasotic?

3 A. He was born in Sandzak, in Serbia.

4 Q. And by ethnicity?

5 A. A Bosniak.

6 Q. Was this the first time that you and these other gentlemen had

7 been the -- or the demand effectively -- no, I'm sorry, can I rephrase

8 that question completely?

9 Was this the first time you had been publicly named by the SDS as

10 potential destroyers of the Banja Luka Corps?

11 A. No. This is not the first time the media, especially the Banja

12 Luka Glas, on several occasions wrote in a very nasty way about me.

13 Q. So before the 27th of March?

14 A. Yes. There were also threats made over the telephone.

15 Q. The fact that the leader of the SDS in Banja Luka, Dr. Vukic, or

16 the President of the regional board of the SDS, was calling you destroyers

17 publicly, in fact at a meeting, was that something that was going to be --

18 have an effect?

19 A. It could have had a very negative affect on all of us who are

20 mentioned here because the citizens of Banja Luka could have carried out

21 an assassination or other threats. There could have been other negative

22 repercussions for us and for our families, and that was a sign for other

23 officers as well, Croats, Bosniaks and Slovenians to leave the army, which

24 is what happened later.

25 Q. Yes. Thank you?

Page 13044

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour could that be made Exhibit P15890 --

2 1580? And that is I think it for today.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Colonel, that is not it for you. We will continue

4 tomorrow. As you have been informed, we will also continue on Monday.

5 So we will reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00, all right?

6 Tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

8 1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

9 the 16th day of January, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.