1 Friday, 17 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, please. Call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you hear me in a language that you can

12 understand?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I hear and I

14 understand.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Appearances, Prosecution?

16 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner,

17 Ann Sutherland, assisted by Denise Gustin, case manager.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you.

19 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman with

21 Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you too.

23 Good morning to you, Colonel.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Same procedure as yesterday. We start with

1 your solemn declaration once more. Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 WITNESS: OSMAN SELAK [Resumed]

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down and Ms. Korner will

8 be continuing with your cross-examination. May I have an indication as to

9 what is going to happen today?

10 MS. KORNER: Apart from the fact that I think it's

11 examination-in-chief, I --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry about that.

13 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, it's like as always. When

14 everyone is dealing with documents, one tends to underestimate. I will

15 undoubtedly I think finish today. No question about that. Whether I

16 finish, if Your Honour is only going to sit until 1.00 today.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I can potentially I can sit until the very end,

18 quarter to 2.00, because I only need to be at the airport at 3.00 even

19 half past 3.00 I might be getting a lift here and if that leaves earlier.

20 MS. KORNER: In that case, Your Honour, I think having looked at

21 the remaining documents, plus there are a couple of videos, more than a

22 couple, but I'm not going to play all of them, some of them are very

23 lengthy. I think realistically I'll finish today, but it may not be there

24 is much time to start cross-examination.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

1 MS. KORNER: The only very quickly because I do want to get on.

2 The only problem that arises is this: Despite my best efforts

3 Judge Schomburg is sitting, I think, well at different times at different

4 days next week but the main problem is going to come on Tuesday, where

5 Judge Schomburg has asked -- the judges themselves are calling a witness

6 who I'm due to cross-examine and Mr. Koumjian is due to come back to this

7 Court to call a witness. It's all got itself into a terribly complicated

8 state. All I need to know really is: Is Mr. Ackerman likely to finish in

9 one full session, i.e., on Monday?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: It's very difficult tore me to say, Your Honour. I

11 would say it's unlikely but possible. That's the best I can do.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

13 MS. KORNER: We will just have to see how we can go then. I don't

14 know how we are going to sort Tuesday out.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Do let me know if there is a problem so that perhaps

16 I could add myself thinking together with you and try and find a solution.

17 MS. KORNER: Well, unfortunately --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Or put some pressure elsewhere.

19 MS. KORNER: It's an all day sitting on Tuesday, I know, and

20 although I did express to Judge Schomburg that there were going to be

21 problems because we were still on the Prijedor section, I think he's very

22 anxious to get a move on and indeed, I think our concerns were also echoed

23 by the Defence but didn't achieve very much.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's start and then we'll see how we

25 get along.

1 MS. KORNER:

2 Q. I'm still, Colonel Selak, going to deal with the newspaper

3 articles with respect to what was being said and other documents about the

4 presence of non-Serb officers in the military. We dealt yesterday with

5 the article of the 27th of March. Could you now be shown please an

6 article of the 5th of April.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

8 MS. KORNER: This is Izetbegovic declared war, thank you, which

9 will become Exhibit P1581.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 MS. KORNER:

12 Q. Again, an article in the Glas newspaper. It starts -- it dealt

13 with a press conference that was being given by the SDS regional board,

14 and it's the vice-president of the Autonomous Region of Krajina speaks.

15 Then Banja Luka, this is apparently quoting Mr. Brdjanin, "It was very

16 quiet in Banja Luka last night which was indeed our goal, to stall Alija

17 Izetbegovic for at least two days since the Serbian Defence forces had

18 foreseen what was being prepared. Radoslav Brdjanin, vice-president of

19 the Autonomous Region of Krajina and member of the crisis detail, told

20 journalists today."

21 Pausing there for one moment. I think we discussed the arrival of

22 the SOS so-called in Banja Luka at around this time, and were you aware,

23 when you read this article, that they had demanded that a Crisis Staff be

24 set up?

25 A. I didn't know about that, and when I read that in the paper, I was

1 shocked. I was an active officer and this was something that really

2 amazed me.

3 Q. And why was that?

4 A. Because until that time, I was convinced that a solution would be

5 found by peaceful means, that we would stay in one army, that there won't

6 be an escalation. And they promised that things would calm down, that war

7 would be avoided and it wouldn't be like it was in the Croatian part so

8 that this threat surprised me. Not only myself but all officers, Muslim

9 and Croat ones.

10 Q. All right you're speaking about what comes later then. So let's

11 just look at it. Brdjanin went on, I'll leave out the Bosanska Krajina

12 bit. "In addition, Brdjanin stated that the crisis committee is resolute

13 in its implementation of all the demands that have so far been designed

14 upon. All the changes in personnel will be decided upon by April the

15 15th." And he proposed that meetings were held. And then he talked about

16 people working in the post office, the bank, he described Alija

17 Izetbegovic declaring war on the Serbian people. And then Dr. Vukic

18 spoke.

19 And then Brdjanin went on to talk about Koljevic and Djeric, a man

20 named Cizmovic, and Brdjanin remarked that it was precisely the

21 composition of the crisis committee, headed by Predrag Radic that showed

22 who the Serbian Defence forces believe in and whom they trust. And the

23 journalist dealt with -- then mobilisation was talked about. And then

24 this, "There are some negative elements in the army itself, like those who

25 will artificially foment such disorder and that is why I am ordering Osman

1 Selak, Vinko Radman, Mesud Hasotic, and Ludvik Kranjc to go ahead and pack

2 their bags and go back to their homes, Dr. Vukic stressed. We support

3 Major general Momir Talic, but if the above-mentioned persons do not

4 withdraw of their own will, the Serbian defence forces will do it for

5 them, Vukic concluded."

6 Did you take those words when you read them, Colonel Selak, as

7 seriously-meant words?

8 A. I did take those words seriously, but I still lived in the hope

9 that this problem would be positively resolved, that we would not have

10 major problems. However, other officers, Muslims and Croats, took that

11 even more seriously and they came out in favour of the federal Republic of

12 Yugoslavia. I remained in my function and I believed, as long as I needed

13 the army or as long as I performed my tasks conscientiously, I would not

14 have any problems so I remained until the 19th of May when I submitted my

15 application for retirement.

16 There were threats by telephone, some disturbances, but I

17 understood that they were individuals who were prompted by this very

18 article. So they were the ones who made those telephone threats. So I

19 didn't pay any attention to that.

20 Q. This orders you to go ahead, pack your bags, and go back to your

21 home, where was your home, Colonel Selak?

22 A. I had an apartment from the army in Banja Luka, and I stayed there

23 until 1995. I couldn't leave Banja Luka.

24 Q. All right. Okay. Thank you. Now, I would like you to look at a

25 record of a speech made by Mr. Brdjanin in the assembly that was held in

1 Banja Luka on the 12th of May. That's Exhibit P50 and it's at page 28 of

2 that exhibit, in the translation, and if I'm given the B/C/S, I can find

3 the B/C/S. In fact, I think it would help -- we've separated --

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I've separated so I can actually give

5 the witness my copy of the B/C/S. And could we put the English up on the

6 ELMO? In the B/C/S, it's at -- from there onwards.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the ERN number, Ms. Korner?

8 MS. KORNER: Of the English translation?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

10 MS. KORNER: It's page 28 with the ERN number is 01908538.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

12 MS. KORNER:

13 Q. Can you fine the part, please, Colonel Selak, it's a sentence that

14 begins, "The problem for areas where the Serbs are a majority is this:"

15 And it's the bottom of our page 28.

16 A. It's 20 and 19 in my copy.

17 Q. Yes, I'm sorry, 28 for us. For you, if you just go down the

18 speech, I should think it's still on page 20 somewhere, and if anybody

19 from the Defence team can assist to speed matters up as to where he'll

20 find it --

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have the document but my page 28 is

22 a speech by Vojo Kupresanin.

23 MS. KORNER: If you'd go for the ERN number of the translation,

24 01908538.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: I've got 00915328.

1 MS. KORNER: I can't help that. But you want page 01908538 in

2 English, but I would welcome.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: You've apparently given me a different version of

4 that document than you have. The 16th session of the assembly held on

5 12th May, 1992, in Banja Luka.

6 MS. KORNER: It is the 12th of May, Banja Luka, if you look

7 wherever it is, Mr. Ackerman, I'm not concerned where you've got to. I

8 would like the witness to find the part.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I would like to find it too, Ms. Korner.

10 MS. KORNER: Then you have a look for it. Brdjanin comes after --

11 try your page 29.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: All right, Brdjanin begins speaking there.

13 MS. KORNER: That's right. If you go to page 30 --

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.

15 MS. KORNER: Right.

16 Q. Colonel Selak have you now found the part, the sentence that

17 begins, "The problem for areas where the Serbs are a majority"?

18 A. Yes, I found that sentence, which begins, "The problem of areas

19 where the Serbs are in a majority is as follows."

20 Q. Yes, thank you. If you just follow then while I deal with it. Is

21 this that, "Most of them are still asking whether they should injury the

22 Muslims, whether they can hold certain posts, whether loyal Muslims and

23 loyal Croats exist. When I spoke with General Raseta six months ago, when

24 he asked me how many Croats hated the army, I retorted 100 per cent."

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, excuse me, I don't know whether it was

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1 misread or what's going on. Ms. Korner is reading and she says, "Most of

2 them are still asking whether they should injury the Muslims. I think

3 what she says -- now, what I have says: The problem facing the areas

4 where the Serbs are the majority is this: That most of them are still

5 thinking they should not offend the Muslims. Nothing in there about

6 injuring the Muslims.

7 MS. KORNER: All right, Your Honour, we have got two

8 translations. Your Honour, there are two. This has been translated

9 twice. I will stick to the one that Mr. Ackerman -- I don't know what

10 Your Honours -- which ones Your Honours have got.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have it. We've checked thoroughly even on

12 the list of the documents that were handed to us. We don't have this one.

13 MS. KORNER: If Your Honour looks at the second page, you'll see

14 speech by Brdjanin, 12th of May assembly, Exhibit P50. It's five from the

15 bottom of page 2 of the list.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but we do have it written there but we don't

17 have the document.

18 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Korner, and please for fairness' sake,

20 use the --

21 MS. KORNER: I'm going to use the same translation that -- that --

22 where are we? I know that. I understand that. I just want it back on

23 the ELMO, please.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: My 20 is different.

25 MS. KORNER: It's on page 30 now.

1 Q. I am sorry about this, Colonel. Can we go back I'll read this

2 sentence again as it's in this translation." When I spoke with General

3 Raseta six months ago when he asked me how many Croats hated the army, I

4 retorted 100 per cent. That is not true, he says, and I say 101 per

5 cent." Firstly, who was General Raseta?

6 A. General Raseta was part of the 5th army district in Zagreb. He

7 was the deputy commander. Later when the army command withdrew from

8 Zagreb, he remained in that area and he conducted negotiations with the

9 Croatian forces about pulling out the units of the JNA from Croatia. He

10 attended meetings in Banja Luka with General Uzelac. I was present at

11 those meetings and they discussed precisely how to pull out the units from

12 Croatia that remained there.

13 Q. Thank you. Can you just tell us what ethnicity was that general.

14 A. A Serb.

15 Q. Then Brdjanin went on to talk about the campaign, and I don't

16 think we need trouble by that. He then talked about General Kukanjac

17 insisting that the Court be moved from Banja Luka to Sarajevo, and at the

18 end of that paragraph, said this, "Now, whoever was responsible for this"

19 and that's talking about the hospital in Ljubljana should be put into the

20 front ranks to go and bomb this hospital. I cannot fathom that we have

21 still not learned some sense. To argue this, I will use the following

22 facts: How can anyone still believe it is all right that we have a Muslim

23 teaching political classes in the Banja Luka Corps?"

24 Pausing there, to whom was he referring?

25 A. Here, he's thinking about Colonel Colonel Mesud Hasotic, who also

1 received threats via newspapers that he had to leave the army.

2 Q. All right. And then he went on to say, "I do not think it is. I

3 know that people will not like what I am saying here, but I truly believe

4 in what I say. I am less of a chauvinist than many believe. I merely

5 have a high degree of national awareness and I believe that in conditions

6 of war, once it is proclaimed, the entire economy, all war planning, all

7 guarding of the facilities, must be put into the hands of Serbs. But once

8 we are liberated, once we have established our own state, we will have

9 nothing against employing experts of the other nationality. Let us not

10 delude ourselves any more with empty talk about how we shall arrange this

11 or maybe this will happen. I have also proposed that we give most of the

12 leading positions to people from the areas where Serbs are the minority.

13 They know what the mujahedin are and what the Ustashas are."

14 And then he goes on to talk about the various areas.

15 Now, did you -- it appears this assembly was televised. Did you

16 see the meeting on the 12th of May on television?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Were you told about the speech that Brdjanin had made?

19 A. This speech was reported in the daily newspapers, in the media, it

20 was broadcast over Radio Banja Luka several times. So people in town

21 commented on this discussion and they took it very seriously, and as a

22 threatening one. It is precisely statements like this which led to the

23 removal of all officials, Muslims and Croats, in various institutions in

24 the region of Bosnia-Herzegovina from schools, from different economic

25 facilities and so on.

1 Q. Well, I think, as we'll see, it also had an affect on the army.

2 Can we look now, please --

3 MS. KORNER: Have I made that exhibit? I don't think I have.

4 It's already P50.

5 Q. Could you look, please, at P229, which comes from the Sanski Most

6 documents.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'd like to have you basically strike

8 from the record 11, line 21, where Ms. Korner says: "As we'll see, it

9 also had an effect on the army." That's nothing but her testimony or

10 submission.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

12 MS. KORNER: I'm anticipating the evidence. But, Your Honour,

13 there is no such thing as strike from the record. The record exists.

14 I've never understood what happens in the United States about this.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think they have it the same way we do it

16 here. But in any case, point taken, Mr. Ackerman, and I think Ms. Korner

17 agrees.

18 MS. KORNER: I agree. And I'll just deal with the documents when

19 I get to.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: This P50 remains P50, I suppose.

21 MS. KORNER: P229, please. Could we have the English?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And could you at some point in time, Ms. Korner,

23 please, replace it with -- because the one we have is the one you were

24 reading initially with the part, "should injure the Muslims." So if you

25 have the other text, we would rather have that.

1 MS. KORNER: I think the official exhibit, though, Your Honour,

2 contains the text that Mr. Ackerman is talking about.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

4 MS. KORNER: So somehow or other, you and I managed to get another

5 translation.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: It's no big deal, because I have at least annotated

7 on mine that there is a divergence between this and the other translation.

8 MS. KORNER: All right.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. This other document is 229?

10 MS. KORNER: P229, Your Honour, in the Sanski Most exhibits. It's

11 a document dated the 7th of June, 1992.

12 Q. Colonel Selak, I don't imagine that you saw this one at the time.

13 You've seen it since; is that correct?

14 A. I did not see it before. I saw it after the war. I have one

15 copy.

16 Q. All right. Now, this was a meeting of political representatives

17 of the municipalities of Bihac, Petrovac, Srpska Krupa, Sanski Most,

18 Prijedor, Bosanski Novi, and Kljuc. And it was sent to the Crisis Staff

19 of the Autonomous Region of Banja Luka and the leadership of the Serbian

20 Republic, and the 1st Krajina Corps in Banja Luka. Paragraph 1, which I

21 will summarise, says it's necessary to declare a state of war. 2: They

22 want a clear position from the highest authorities in respect of forging a

23 land corridor. 3: Within the next three days, we request clear answers

24 from the political leadership of the SDS and the military leadership of

25 the Republic of -- Serbian Republic, on the question of reorganisation of

1 the former JNA, now the VRS. We request to see the law on the army of the

2 Serbian Republic.

3 And 4: We demand that the 1st Krajina Corps in Banja Luka, and

4 particularly General Momir Talic of the 1st Krajina Corps, purge the 1st

5 Krajina Corps of Muslims and Croats. We believe that they cannot fight

6 against their own people and that they are now involved in intelligence

7 and other activities in the 1st Krajina Corps that are of interest to

8 Ustasha forces and members of the so-called Alija's Territorial Defence.

9 Deadline for completion, seven days. 5 deals with definition of borders,

10 which they found necessary from the military point of view. And 6: "All

11 seven municipalities in our subregion agree that Muslims and Croats should

12 move out of our municipalities until a level is reached where the Serbian

13 authority can be maintained and implemented on its own territory in each

14 of these municipalities. In this respect, we request the Crisis Staff

15 provide a corridor for the resettlement of Muslims and Croats to central

16 Bosnia and Alija's independent state of Bosnia-Herzegovina, because they

17 voted for it. If the leadership of the Autonomous Region of Krajina in

18 Banja Luka fails to solve this issue, our seven municipalities will take

19 all Muslims and Croats under military escort from our municipalities to

20 the centre of Banja Luka."

21 Now, you didn't see this document at the time, although you saw it

22 later. However, were you made aware that there had been this demand from

23 leaders or political representatives of these municipalities at any stage?

24 A. I did not know that this document existed. I found out about it

25 after the war. However, already in the month of June, officers who were

1 Croats and Muslims, or rather Bosniaks, had left their units, were

2 dismissed from duty, and were sent to the federal Republic of Yugoslavia

3 to resolve status matters there. At the same time, Muslims and Croats

4 started moving out of Bosanska Krajina, especially from Banja Luka, in the

5 direction of Croatia. That went on all the way up to the 18th of May,

6 1995, for as long as I was in Banja Luka, but it continued afterwards as

7 well.

8 Q. Now, I want you next, please, to have a look at a document dated

9 the 9th of June, and it's 4.636. All right. Now, this is a document

10 sent, apparently, by Colonel Vukelic whom we have mentioned before, the

11 assistant commander for moral guidance, to the main staff, and it's dated

12 the 9th of June and the importance of the number we'll see.

13 But it's 488-3, and it says: "Report on the autonomous region

14 Crisis Staff decision submitted to the main staff. One of the issues that

15 was discussed at yesterday's session of the ARK Crisis Staff was the

16 general personnel policy in the army 1st Krajina Corps. It was stated

17 that within units of the 1st Krajina Corps, logistic base, and the units

18 of the air force and anti-aircraft defence in Banja Luka garrison, there

19 are 67 officers of Muslim or Croatian nationality. An ultimatum was

20 issued requesting removal of these persons from vital and command posts by

21 the 15th of June, 1992, or they will take over the control of -- over the

22 armed forces. We consider their demand to be justified. But it is

23 impossible to find adequate professional replacements among the reserve

24 staff and active officers of Bosnia-Herzegovinian origin are not arriving

25 from the FRY. Such action would also significantly weaken the above-named

1 units from which it has been requested that staff be purged. We are aware

2 of a certain degree of danger, and we are excluding such persons from the

3 important decision-making processes. Our recommendation is to accelerate

4 the process of sending active soldiers of Bosnian origin over from the

5 FRY. The 1st Krajina Corps command should make the decision as to which

6 staff members from the ranks of Muslims and Croats may still be

7 temporarily kept and at what posts. It would also be essential to take a

8 position on what should be done with those who have not demonstrated any

9 hostile activity so far but who must be removed from key posts." And

10 that's signed.

11 Now, can you look a look, please, at the response to this, 4.1061?

12 That documents will become -- I'm sorry, the one of the 9th of June, 1582

13 or the one we just looked at. This is dated the same day. It's from the

14 main staff, addressed to a Colonel Rankovic. Who was Colonel Rankovic?

15 A. Colonel Rankovic was head of the personnel department at the corps

16 command in Banja Luka.

17 Q. Addressed to the command of the 1st Krajina Corps and refers to

18 the document giving the number of the previous document that we just

19 looked at. "Officers of Muslims or Croatian nationality must be sent on

20 leave immediately. Take action at once to refer them to the army of the

21 FRY in order to resolve their status in the service."

22 Did you ever see these two orders?

23 A. During my stay in Banja Luka, I never saw these two documents.

24 Q. However, what effect did this order from the main staff to the 5th

25 or 1st corps as it was by then of the Krajina Corps have?

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1 A. Precisely in the month of June, all officers who were Croats and

2 Bosniaks were dismissed from their positions. Only two or three Bosniaks

3 remained. Two of them changed their names. They took Serb names. And

4 they remained there until the end of the war. These are non-commissioned

5 officers. However, as for my own officers, Muslims and Croats, in the

6 month of June, I sent them by aircraft to Belgrade where they resolved

7 their status. However, within a short period of time, they had to leave

8 Yugoslavia and they went to Europe, to Western Europe.

9 Q. Yes.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that will become Exhibit P1583.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you proceed, Ms. Korner, if it's okay with

12 you --

13 MS. KORNER: Certainly.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Colonel, just out of curiosity because it looks

15 strange to me, having gone through several military documents and

16 dispatches, this one seems, and the stamp seems to be just a date against

17 the entry processed, which is 11 days after supposedly it was issued.

18 Does that make sense to you? Could you provide us with some kind of

19 explanation. If you look at the previous document, you'll see that it is

20 dated 9 June, it was transmitted and received, and processed on the 9th

21 June. This one doesn't show it was received. It shows it has been

22 processed which possibly presumes that it has been received, but it shows

23 it has been processed 11 days later. Do you think there is a reason for

24 this?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I explain?

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the document of the command of

3 the 1st Krajina Corps, which was sent to the command of the forcers of the

4 Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, this document was sent by telefax.

5 The difference is in 15 minutes' time. They received it at the

6 communication centre and then dispatched it to the main staff.

7 At the main staff, they received this document straight away.

8 However, when they sent return information to the command of the 1st

9 Krajina Corps, they did not record the time when they received this

10 document at the main staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. Personally, I

11 think it is not important because it was registered at the main staff and

12 they did respond to this document, and it was faxed. And that can be seen

13 by the time that is shown.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Ms. Korner.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I just want to check

16 something on -- sorry, Your Honour, my attention has been drawn to

17 something but I need to have that checked before I can deal with it. Yes,

18 now, Your Honour, there is one further document on this I want to deal

19 with but first of all --

20 Q. Colonel, on the first day you testified, you explained about the

21 relationship that existed between the political bodies and the military,

22 and you said that the political authorities set the objectives and tasks

23 that were to be carried out?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And that the military then, through its own methods, carried out

1 those tasks. How does what we've just looked at fit into that scheme?

2 A. Well, just as I said, on the first day, there were joint

3 objectives of the political and military leaderships. The only difference

4 was regarding the methods of attaining that goal. The political

5 authorities were carrying out ethnic cleansing through the police and

6 other authorities, and the military resolved other military problems.

7 Q. But that's a slightly different -- here what we've seen is

8 political, either speeches or things said at press conferences by the

9 politicians. What effect was this having on the army?

10 A. It had a major effect, because people from these areas came into

11 the army. The families of the army members lived in that area. So it was

12 very important what the political leadership thought, and what their

13 objectives were. There were contacts on a daily basis. There were

14 exchanges of information and views were accommodated between the political

15 and military authorities.

16 Q. Yes. All right. Thank you. Can we look then finally at one

17 further document, same month and it's dated the 21st of June. It's from

18 the 30th Partisan Brigade. I'm sorry, I have the gone, it's got number

19 00437725. It's disclosure 4.2166. It's headed "command of the 30th

20 Partisan Brigade, strictly confidential," date 21st of June, and it's

21 addressed to the command of the 1st Partisan Brigade. One of the last

22 documents on our list. So the documents were organised in order of the

23 list. It should be down there. Look, can we just --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it 0437725?

25 MS. KORNER: 6 -- 5 and 6, Your Honour, absolutely.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So it doesn't have a disclosure number in our case.

2 MS. KORNER: That's why -- there was a disclosure number but --

3 Your Honour, I'm going to put up the English and here is this for the

4 officer. I can't stand waiting much longer. And I'll put up the -- an

5 English copy on the ELMO.

6 Q. This is -- it's headed, I think, Colonel Selak, "Answers to

7 questions forwarded. The main staff of the army have forwarded to us the

8 strictly confidential document of the 20th of June with the following

9 content. In response to the questions raised by some units about the

10 military service of soldiers of non-Serbian nationality in the army of the

11 Serbian Republic, we are forwarding the following explanation: Soldiers

12 of non-Serbian nationality are to be released from your units at their own

13 request by applying one of the procedures set forth below. A: The units

14 is to register" --

15 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honour, the word "soldiers" has been missed

16 out of the translation. We checked that.

17 Q. "To register the soldiers with the Red Cross as a prisoner so that

18 he can be exchanged later for prisoners of the opposing side via this

19 humanitarian organisation. Released soldiers are to travel to Belgrade

20 and then be transferred home," et cetera. "And the soldiers are to be

21 interviewed on what solution is most suitable for them. Soldiers of

22 non-Serb nationality who wish to serve in the army of the Serbian Republic

23 are to be kept in the units on less important duties and put under the

24 necessary supervision. They should submit and personally sign a written

25 statement." And then it deals further with soldiers of Serbian

1 nationality.

2 Now, Colonel, again, were you aware of this device that was to be

3 adopted at the time?

4 A. Yes. I was aware of such documents. I had them at the base

5 command. Until the 18th of May, when the Army of Republika Srpska was

6 proclaimed, soldiers who were doing their military service in the

7 territory of Serbia, Montenegro, and Macedonia, and who originally came

8 from Bosnia-Herzegovina, were born there, were supposed to return to their

9 places of residence in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 Also, soldiers from Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia, who did

11 their military service in the JNA units in Bosnia-Herzegovina, were

12 supposed to be returned to their places of birth in Serbia, Montenegro,

13 and Macedonia. This document clearly shows that. It was signed by the

14 deputy commander of the 1st Partisan division, and the deputy commander

15 signed this, but the commander was Colonel Galic. And that is precisely

16 the type of action that was taken in all units of the 5th Corps, as well

17 as in other units that were not within the corps. That is to say the

18 logistics base, the rocket brigade, the school centre for training tank

19 operators, et cetera.

20 Q. By the time that you actually left the army, which was the

21 beginning -- you handed over your duties the beginning of July, how many

22 non-Serb officers were still serving in the 1st Krajina Corps?

23 A. I do not have any precise information, but I know that Colonel

24 Hasotic, Mesud, stayed until the end of August, as well as Colonel Kranjc

25 who towards the end of July, beginning of August, left his post and went

1 to Slovenia. A few NCOs remained who changed their names into Serb names

2 and they remained in their posts.

3 Q. All right. Thank you. Can we just finally on this topic go back

4 for a moment to the document that you looked at earlier? Because there is

5 one thing I missed out. It's the report by Colonel Vukelic, which is now

6 Exhibit P1582. I said it was sent to the army main staff but what I think

7 we -- I missed certainly, it was also sent to the Presidency of the

8 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would you -- were you surprised that something like this should go

11 both to the main staff of the army and the political -- the heads of the

12 political wings of government?

13 A. Please, the assistant commander for morale and political and legal

14 affairs, Colonel Milutin Vukelic, informs the main staff of the Army of

15 Republika Srpska and the Presidency of the Serb Republic of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina about the decision of the Crisis Staff decision of the

17 Autonomous Region of Krajina. That is to say this was a decision passed

18 by the then authorities in Krajina concerning their demands or requests.

19 This information is sent on behalf of the corps command, and I find this

20 logical.

21 Q. Yes. The question -- so the question was: Are you surprised to

22 see it went not only to the main command of the army but also to, as it

23 were, the head of the state?

24 A. No. That does not surprise me.

25 Q. So that's something you would have expected in respect of this

1 kind of issue?

2 A. The question here is very important. It pertains to the survival,

3 to the life of a people in an area, and according to my opinion, this type

4 of information is something that is expected. It's not something that

5 surprised me. Members of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina regularly visited the corps command and toured the

7 units at the front.

8 Q. Thank you. Yes. Then that's all I ask on this particular issue

9 of the dismissals.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour the last Exhibit that he read, the

11 Partisan Brigade, will be Exhibit P1584.

12 Q. Now, Colonel, I'd like to go back to your official notebook,

13 please. You've got that in front of you. And we stopped there yesterday

14 with the entry for the 28th of April, and now can we move, please, to the

15 following day, the 29th of April, which is at our page 122, Your Honour.

16 What were you reporting there, in that entry? It begins, "The

17 Presidency of the SFRY on the 28th of April".

18 A. I received information that the Presidency of the SFRY on the 28th

19 of April had a meeting in its broader composition, attended by the

20 President of the SFRY, the deputy Prime Minister, the vice-president of

21 the assembly, the acting secretary for National Defence, and the deputy of

22 the federal minister for foreign affairs.

23 Q. But I'm sorry, I know you received it but are you just recording

24 that there was such a meeting or did somebody actually tell you about it?

25 I mean, in other words, was there a meeting at your command at which you

1 were being informed about the meeting of the Presidency?

2 A. No. I was at a meeting with the commander of the 5th Corps when

3 they all received this information, all of his deputies, and I was also

4 present. So I noted down this information.

5 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, the only thing I want to ask you

6 about here is under 1, "International and internal situation, four

7 republics would be a real Yugoslavia." And then you've written "not for a

8 new Serbian state."

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What was that referring to?

11 A. Please, I just copied the information announced to us by the

12 commander of the 5th Corps. Item 1, when he talks about the international

13 and domestic situation, he said that Yugoslavia would comprise four

14 republics, and those would be Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia and the

15 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he said that he was not only

16 in favour of a Serbian state, meaning that he would be in favour of it

17 including Montenegrins, Macedonians, Bosnians and so on.

18 Q. That's what General Talic was saying on the 29th of April?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Can we now move, please, to the 5th of May?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Item number 1, "Taking on conscripts and reserve officers,

23 responding to the general mobilisation announced in the autonomous

24 region." What kind of a meeting was this?

25 A. Just one moment. I wrote this down for my own needs, for my

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1 command. This was about the induction of military conscripts. So

2 conscripts and reserve members who were being called up at the request of

3 Bosanska Krajina. At that moment, I was focusing on the problems that

4 could arise from this whole matter, because the mobilisation was declared

5 so we would need time to equip all these soldiers.

6 Q. Right. Now, item 5, there was a discussion with a Major Malic

7 about command and control issues and threats to his life, which have been

8 coming from men serving in his battalion. All I want to know is what

9 ethnicity was Major Malic?

10 A. Major Ivica Malic was a Croat and he was a commander of the

11 medical [as interpreted] battalion in the rear base that was under my

12 command.

13 Q. And what happened to him?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correct, the quarter master

15 battalion.

16 A. Major Malic had to leave his duty urgently, and I don't know what

17 happened.

18 MS. KORNER:

19 Q. Now, finally, and only because we can see, I don't think it's of

20 any interest, something is written I think across your page. You needn't

21 bother to read it but I just want to know why it's written there.

22 A. This is a pen -- pencil, at a meeting of the commanders of the

23 corps, they were requesting weapons from me. I was trying to stick to the

24 law and to the regulations pertaining to the issuance of weapons. A man

25 who was sitting to my left took a pencil and he wrote down, may I state

1 this? May I read what it says here as it is written?

2 Q. Don't worry, I don't think we need it, but it wasn't written by

3 you. Somebody else wrote this in your book?

4 A. No, no. It was written by -- it says, "Issue the equipment.

5 Don't --"

6 Q. Yes. I know. Don't worry, we've got it. All right. Can we

7 move, please, in your notebook to the 7th of May? There is an item

8 written under 3, "The matter of Croat and Muslim personnel at the

9 logistics base." What was that referring to?

10 A. This is the question and answer regarding the previous documents.

11 Croats and Muslims had to leave their posts. They were interviewed about

12 where they wanted to go, whether they wanted to go to the federal Republic

13 of Yugoslavia or abroad, and this was something that was reviewed at the

14 level of their commands, this issue.

15 Q. Can I just deal with one slightly subsidiary issue to this

16 question of these dismissals? Did first of all serving officers receive

17 accommodation from the army whilst serving with the army?

18 A. Yes. The army bought apartments and awarded them to active

19 officers as well as to civilians who were employed in the JNA.

20 Q. If an officer was forced to leave the army or forced to take early

21 retirement, was he allowed to keep that accommodation?

22 A. If he remained in Banja Luka, yes, he would keep the apartment,

23 and then later, he could buy it from the army.

24 Q. However, if he had to leave Banja Luka, would he be entitled to

25 sell that accommodation or receive any compensation?

1 A. No. He didn't have the right to sell it or receive any

2 compensation. Apartments were just left. The family would leave them

3 with a suitcase. They would leave everything, their things, cars,

4 garages, if people had them. Everything was left as it was, and this was

5 taken by the military authorities and given to other officers, those who

6 had arrived from Yugoslavia or Croatia or Slovenia, with the corps units.

7 The proceedings are being conducted now to give back, to restore, those

8 apartments to their prior occupants, and this process has not been

9 completed yet. It's ongoing.

10 Q. Finally on this, were there strictly defined offences under

11 military law for which people could be dismissed from the army?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You needn't bother to tell us what they are, but was there any

14 offence which would allow for dismissal, forcing into early retirement, of

15 simply being a Muslim or a Croat or a non-Serb generally?

16 A. When the question of Muslim and Croat officers was being resolved,

17 the factor was considered whether people who met the conditions for

18 retirement could retire. However, all those who did not meet those

19 conditions for retirement could go to the Republic of Yugoslavia or

20 somewhere else. If anybody was criminally responsible, then this was

21 something that was reviewed by Yugoslav courts and they would then make a

22 ruling about that matter.

23 Q. Yes. Thank you. Can we then move, please, in your official

24 notebook, please, to -- it's an entry for the 11th of May, and it's under

25 the heading, "Security." It's our page 130. "Security situation in Donji

1 Vakuf. The town is empty. All residents gone. A ghost town." Did you

2 see that yourself or was that a report to you?

3 A. Just one moment. I'm looking for that passage.

4 Q. I'm sorry.

5 A. I have two under the 11th, two entries.

6 Q. What you should have is the quarter master -- it comes as

7 "operations and training," and then "security".

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you see the entry now, "Security situation in Donji Vakuf, the

10 town is empty. All residents gone. A ghost town"?

11 A. 11th of May? Just one moment. Yes, yes. I've found it.

12 Security.

13 Q. I just want to know. Was that something you saw yourself or was

14 that reported to you?

15 A. The commander of the depot in Donji Vakuf, Savic, told me about

16 that.

17 Q. Now, can we look, please, at another document outside of your

18 diary, to follow things through in date order? It is another 30th

19 Partisan Division document dated the 16th of May, 1992. Its number is

20 00437738, disclosure 4.1576. And it was three up from the bottom of our

21 list.

22 Now, this is again the 30th Partisan Division to the 1st Partisan

23 Brigade, signed by Colonel Galic, and it's to do with protection of

24 command posts and communication centres. It states, "After the takeover

25 of communications centres and other separate communication facilities,

1 communication links between the Ministry of the interior and the rump

2 Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina have been blocked and disconnected." Can

3 we pause there, please?

4 Is what is being discussed here the MUP and what's described as

5 the rump Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as it were, the -- not sure how

6 to put this exactly, it's not the real Bosnia-Herzegovina but it was the

7 non-Serbian state institutions? Is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. "Consequently, communication is no longer possible and mail,

10 telephone and telegraph messages, as well as radio and television signals

11 cannot be transmitted."

12 Were you aware of the takeover of --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- for example, the Kozara transmitter?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Then what is said here, "The enemy will try to regain as many of

17 these facilities as possible, as he tried with the attack on the Vlasic

18 centre, in order to protect all these communication centres, eliminate the

19 surprise factor, and secure communication -- all communication links

20 between the units," and then there is -- there are a series of orders.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Just so that we understand, in May of 1992, was there, as is

23 stated in this document, was it almost impossible to communicate with the

24 authorities in Sarajevo?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Yes. Thank you.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can that be made P1585?

3 Q. And now can we move back to your official notebook, to the 18th of

4 May --

5 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, there is not much left that I want

6 to go through but this entry is a major one but I think it probably is

7 better to break at this stage.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a break of 25 minutes.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, needless to say, one should never have a

12 break because I then do a check and I found that I had skipped one

13 document on dismissals.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem. It's not the first time. It has

15 happened to anyone, and it certainly won't be the last time. I just

16 wanted to inform you that I have just signed the decision on rule 92 bis

17 relating to Bosanski Novi municipality, minus of course as far as concerns

18 witness 7.147 because we don't have the statement as yet. When we receive

19 that, we will decide it.

20 MS. KORNER: Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Ms. Korner.

22 MS. KORNER: Could I ask that the witness be shown one last

23 document on the question of, as it were, dismissals? It's disclosure

24 number 4.594, 5th Corps command, dated the 15th of March, 1992.

25 Q. Colonel Selak, this appears to be a draft or at least it's not

1 signed, but it's Lieutenant commander -- I'm sorry, Lieutenant General

2 Vladimir Vukovic. So that was -- General Vukovic was still in charge of

3 the 5th Corps at that stage, presumably?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And all I want to deal with is the first paragraphs. "In regard

6 to the coming retirement of a portion of the active military personnel,

7 and the change of classification of some units of the 5th Corps, we would

8 suggest the following changes in the personnel. 1: That Colonel Tepsic

9 be appointed the head of the operative group, federal secretariat for

10 people's Defence, for coordination with the logistics service of the UN

11 forces. We would point out that according to an order issued by the

12 federal secretariat, Colonel Osman Selak, current commander of the

13 logistics base was in line for this post. We consider that at this moment

14 this would not be an appropriate appointment."

15 Did you see that order yourself?

16 A. I know of this order. At that time, I was already appointed by

17 the chief of general staff of the Yugoslav People's Army as head of group

18 for cooperation with the United Nations. I knew that Colonel Tepsic was

19 nominated for that position. This was at the intervention of the corps

20 commander but this was not taken into account.

21 Q. Yes. Thank you.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that -- may that be made 1586?

23 Q. Now, could we go back to your notebook entry for the 18th of May?

24 Was this a meeting with General Talic and commanders of units within the

25 corps, but the corps command staff only?

1 A. The commanders of units were there in Banja Luka. The commander

2 of the Armoured Brigade, the Rocket Brigade, I don't know who else was

3 there, and also the top echelons of the command, that is to say the

4 assistant commanders of the 5th Corps.

5 Q. And do you then record what General Talic told you?

6 A. Yes. I quoted it here in my notebook. First, under A he informed

7 us about the meeting of the Crisis Staff that he attended. And he said --

8 Q. Pause. Were you aware or did you know whether or not before the

9 18th of May, General Talic had attended meetings of the Crisis Staff?

10 A. I knew that he attended meetings of the Crisis Staff, but as for

11 the timing and the questions involved, I never expressed any interest or

12 did he tell me about it. Either Talic went or one of his assistant

13 commanders, Vukelic, Vujnovic, or even Colonel Bosko Kelecevic, his

14 deputy.

15 Q. And how would -- you say he didn't -- he personally didn't say

16 he'd been to a meeting of a Crisis Staff except clearly on this occasion,

17 but how would you know that he was attending or that Colonels Vujnovic or

18 Vukelic were attending?

19 A. I said that they went as representatives, either individually or

20 together. I don't know about that. But we had regular communications.

21 We worked in the same building. Our offices were there, near each other.

22 So of course we had a normal day to day communication about various

23 matters, including political matters as well, because I was interested too

24 in what was going on in Bosanska Krajina.

25 Q. If an officer left the army building where you were based, did he

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1 have to leave behind information as to where he was?

2 A. If a person left the command building or the workplace generally

3 speaking, he would have to tell his superior officer where he was going,

4 and also his subordinates had to know where he was going so that the

5 subordinate could find his superior in case he needed to ask him about

6 something. This is a normal type of relationship that exists within a

7 unit. One always had to know day and night where the commander was.

8 Q. Now, you say this just says the Crisis Staff. To which Crisis

9 Staff was this a reference? Because we know that there were two in Banja

10 Luka, the regional and a municipal.

11 A. I believe that this is from the meeting of the Crisis Staff, the

12 regional one, because the corps covered the entire region, not only the

13 municipality of Banja Luka, and therefore there is no logic for it only to

14 be --

15 Q. All right. Can we now look at the information that he provided

16 you with? He said that, "Today was the establishment of the army of the

17 Serbian Republic, the VRS, to be officially proclaimed, that there would

18 be a change in the insignia."

19 A. On their caps, yes. The three-coloured flag.

20 Q. And then, "In the area of responsibility of the corps, everything

21 would be subordinate to --"

22 A. I beg your pardon. That everything would be subordinated to the

23 corps. That is to say the entire area of responsibility was subordinated

24 to the command of the 5th Corps with regard to all matters. That is to

25 say all human and material resources of that territory fall under the

1 corps and are there to meet the needs of an armed struggle.

2 Q. All right. And then there was a request apparently at the meeting

3 to have the corps, the area of the corps, expanded, the formation of light

4 brigades, an air force, and then there was something about Kosmos?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Kosmos will change ownership?

7 A. Yes. This specifically involves the establishment of light

8 brigades too, that the school centre of the mechanised and army --

9 armoured unit, that is to say the military academy and the secondary

10 school for tank operators would remain in Banja Luka and that the repair

11 and overhaul centre Kosmos, which carried out the general overhaul of

12 radars and similar systems for the needs of the entire JNA should remain

13 in Banja Luka, and that it should change its owner.

14 Q. Yeah. Then under B, proclamation, there was the order to disarm

15 paramilitary formations, all those which have no permits. Does it read,

16 "As far as Bosanski Novi and Srbac"?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then the situation on the territory. And then --

19 A. Bosanski Kobas, that that is where plundering was taking place.

20 Q. Don't worry about that. I want to try and summarise this, please,

21 Colonel. And then if we go down the list that he was telling you about,

22 there was a demand to open up a corridor leading to war -- leading to

23 Serbia?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The Crisis Staff is opting for negotiations instead of war but

1 this has to be resolved?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. "No military leaders, no paramilitary formations" and then --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- "Muslim response if they do not want to fight, let them go."

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, could you look, please, at document P227, the gazette for --

8 which recorded that meeting of the 18th of May at the Crisis Staff?

9 MS. KORNER: In the translation, Your Honour, it's item number 12,

10 and if the usher gives it to me, I'll find the relevant part for the

11 witness. It's page 00882909.

12 Q. We saw what you recorded as General Talic had told you. We look

13 down at item numbers 3 and 4, "Illegally obtained weapons will be taken

14 away by members of the military and civilian police." Was that something

15 that General Talic told you?

16 A. No, I don't remember this. This was not written.

17 Q. Because you recorded -- all right. Let's read the next one. "All

18 formations that are not in the army of the Serbian Republic of BH, all the

19 Banja Luka security services centre, and are in the Autonomous Region of

20 Krajina are to be considered paramilitary formations and must be

21 disarmed."

22 Was that what was said to you which you recorded as proclamation?

23 A. I included information that there were no voyvodas, those were the

24 leaders of these paramilitary formations, but also I said that there were

25 in paramilitary formations. That was the item I did include. So there

1 were no vojvodas or paramilitary formations, and I believe this is a

2 quotation from item 4 of the conclusions of the Crisis Staff.

3 Q. All right. Then if we go, please, to the conclusion number 14.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Sorry, conclusion, it's in paragraph 14 of the same meeting, which

6 reads, in the gazette, "For the time being the 5th Corps is to take over

7 the Kosmos air force maintenance and production complex until the

8 government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina comes to a final

9 decision." Is that what you were recording under your one-line note in

10 respect of Kosmos?

11 A. Yes. I put Kosmos. I said that Kosmos would change its owner and

12 remain in Banja Luka.

13 Q. All right. Thank you very much, Colonel. You can put that away,

14 then. That can be taken from you.

15 Could we now move, please, in your notebook, just to --

16 MS. KORNER: First of all briefly the 24th of May where you had a

17 meeting with assistants, page 146 for us, Your Honour.

18 Q. It looks like the problem of Captain Trako was discussed again.

19 Is that right? If you just answer yes or no.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Yeah. And he was obviously interviewed again?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, can we move, please, to what happened on the 27th of May,

24 when you had a meeting with General Talic?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Now, on the 27th of May, were you aware that there was an attack

2 being planned on Kozarac?

3 A. No.

4 Q. So no one in the command had informed you that there was going to

5 be an attack?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Now, you've recorded on the 27th of May, at a meeting with the

8 corps commander, it says reporting. Was that you reporting to the corps

9 commander?

10 A. There was a meeting at the corps commander's. There was this

11 daily reporting. I came from Banja Luka with Colonel Tepsic because the

12 command post was at the correctional facility of Hrvatska Gradiska on the

13 other side of the Sava River.

14 Q. And was there then a report about what had happened in Kozarac?

15 A. Yes. The head of the leading team of the corps command for that

16 day was Colonel Dragan Marcetic assistant corps commander for operations

17 and teaching. This team received information about occurrences during the

18 day in the units of the corps. And at the meeting at General Talic's, he

19 reported on that.

20 Q. Now, can you tell us, using your note, what General Marcetic said

21 and what General Talic's reaction was?

22 A. Colonel Marcetic reported that that day in Kozarac, 800 citizens

23 were killed, that 1.200 were taken prisoner. At that moment, I understood

24 this information. I realised that Dragan Marcetic had diminished the

25 number of persons killed in Kozarac. At that moment, General Talic knew

1 that I was the only Bosniak among the officers.

2 Q. Can you stop there for a moment, please? How did you know when he

3 said that 800 citizens were killed that he had diminished the number of

4 persons killed in Kozarac? At that moment, on the 27th of May.

5 A. Marcetic knew that I was a Bosniak. We were relatively close,

6 too. And it is precisely due to my presence that he diminished the

7 figures involved. And this was later proven to be true unfortunately.

8 Q. All right. So at that stage, you thought the figure of 800 was

9 less than had actually been killed?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that if I understand your evidence, that it was being reduced

12 because Colonel Marcetic knew that you were a Bosniak and didn't want to

13 give you the full figure?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Continue. What was General Talic's reaction to this?

16 A. General Talic's spontaneous reaction was to look at me, to turn

17 his head towards me. He realised that he had made a mistake. He turned

18 to Colonel Marcetic and used the following words: "You mean that 80

19 persons were killed, lost their lives? That is the information that

20 you're supposed to send to the general staff." I will never forget these

21 words for as long as I live.

22 Q. Why do you, in your opinion, being present at this meeting, what

23 was the reason for General Talic saying, "You mean 80"?

24 A. That was a normal reaction on his part, because he knew that he

25 was violating the rules of international law of war. And that somebody

1 had to be held accountable for that. And somebody would have to bear the

2 consequences of this genocide, and he in actual fact wanted to conceal,

3 cover up, the crime committed and to misinform his superior command.

4 Q. Can we look, please, then, back at your note about what else was

5 said? You've recorded Kozarac and 800 dead, 1.200 captured. The next

6 entry you write --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What did you say after that?

9 A. That people were at the end of their -- had reached the end of

10 their patience, that four soldiers were killed and 17 wounded, that they

11 were going to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia by bus, and that this bus

12 was stopped --

13 Q. Just pause there, Colonel, please. Is this still in relation to

14 Kozarac or was this a different --

15 A. No. Colonel Marcetic here is reporting to the corps commander

16 about what was going on in the corps, and in the area, on that day, the

17 27th of May, 1992, because this was a report made at 7.00 p.m.

18 Q. So the note about the actual attack on Kozarac stops, does it, in

19 Kozarac because of a roadblock, 800 dead, 1.200 captured?

20 A. Yes. There are some other issues further on about what was going

21 on in the corps, that there were extremists on both sides, that an

22 escalation will not -- that it would not be possible to prevent an

23 escalation.

24 Q. Just stop.

25 A. About the large expenditure of ammunition.

1 Q. Stop for a moment, please. I'm not so interested in this. Could

2 you turn, please, to the part where you talk about the paramilitary

3 formation for Manjaca?

4 A. Yes. That, "The paramilitary formation from Manjaca should leave

5 the training ground." I'm reading it as I wrote it down at the meeting.

6 Q. And was a reason given for that at the meeting?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And who was saying the paramilitary's formations from Manjaca?

9 Was that Colonel Marcetic or General Talic who was saying that they should

10 leave?

11 A. General Talic ordered for them to leave the training ground; that

12 was his order.

13 Q. And then finally, on this entry, "He is against the war option,

14 800 killed." Again, was that General Talic saying that?

15 A. The Chief of Staff asked for an analysis of the manpower of the

16 5th Corps, and that he wasn't for the war option, and again he mentioned

17 the 800 killed. I didn't put down Kozarac but it's understood that it's

18 Kozarac.

19 Q. Yes, I'm sorry, the Chief of Staff of the main staff wasn't there,

20 was he? This was General Talic saying what the Chief of Staff wanted?

21 A. I think that this was stated by Colonel Bosko Kelecevic, I'm not

22 sure but I think that was his position, because he wanted an analysis of

23 the --

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did in the catch what the

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1 A. Oh, he wanted an analysis of the food supplies of the manpower.

2 MS. KORNER:

3 Q. I understand that but what you've written, isn't it, is, "Chief of

4 Staff, main staff"?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. And the Chief of Staff to the main staff -- are we talking about

7 the main staff of the 5th Corps or are we talking about the main staff at

8 republic level?

9 A. I cannot remember whether the main -- the Chief of Staff of the

10 main staff of Republika Srpska was there. So I think that it was Colonel

11 Bosko Kelecevic the Chief of Staff. Maybe I made a mistake.

12 Q. Okay. But who said -- who was against the war option, as 800 had

13 been killed? Who said that?

14 A. This was stated by General Talic.

15 Q. All right. Now, could you look, please, at a different document?

16 It's attachment 5 to the statement of the 13th of July, 2000. And it's a

17 document dated the 27th of May, 1992, from the 1st Krajina Corps. This is

18 a report from the 1st Krajina Corps, 27th of May. It says, "Stari

19 Gradiska." Was that where the forward command post was at that stage?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. And was your -- had your meeting with General Talic been at that

22 forward command post?

23 A. Yes. This was a report to the corps commander, and I went to

24 report about the logistics supplies with Colonel Tepsic and his deputy for

25 the rear. And we were in Banja Luka at that time.

1 Q. And this is the report, as it's headed, on the elimination of the

2 Green Berets, in the wider area of Kozarac village. So this is not just,

3 do we take it, a report on the village or town of Kozarac but the

4 surrounding areas as well?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Indeed, we can see that they are listed below. "Concerning the

7 destruction of the Green Berets in the wider area of Kozarac village, we

8 submit the following report, that the armed conflict started on 25th of

9 May, 1992, and ended on the 27th of May."

10 Now, by the words "armed conflict" what would you, as an army

11 officer, understand by it? And what would the superior command understand

12 by that?

13 A. An armed conflict is thought to be the conflict between two armies

14 or two opposing sides, or two enemy units.

15 Q. Would that include, in army terminology, an isolated incident

16 where a vehicle had been fired upon, or a patrol had been fired upon?

17 A. No. This is a formulation, a term here, armed conflict between

18 warring units, not an incident.

19 Q. "Participating in the armed conflict on our side were components

20 of the 343rd Motorised Brigade, an enlarged motorised battalion, supported

21 by two 105-millimetre howitzer batteries and one M-84 tank squadron."

22 Now, how many men would that mean? Roughly?

23 A. The motorised brigade had 2.500 people by establishment, and it

24 was augmented by a motorised tank unit and also it had howitzers. So it

25 was a very well-equipped, armed unit of 3.000 men.

1 Q. The total strength of the Green Berets was 1.500 to 2.000 men,

2 without heavy weapons.

3 Now, from your knowledge of this area, were there 1.500 to 2.000

4 armed Muslims, which is what Green Berets, I think, is meant to relate to?

5 A. No. In this area, there were no armed formations of the so-called

6 Green Berets. People returned their weapons at the request of the

7 Prijedor municipality authorities. However, a genocide occurred here,

8 ethnic cleansing. Otherwise, how can you explain that only four soldiers

9 from this brigade were killed? And on the other side, over 1.500 people

10 were actually killed.

11 Q. All right. Well, let's -- I was going to come on to ask you about

12 that. I'm sorry, I've just been passed a note, after the millimetre --

13 105-millimetre howitzers batteries, could you read the original? What

14 does the next bit say? And 1, M-84 what?

15 A. It states here a tank platoon of M-84. So there are four tanks in

16 a platoon, and they were part of the equipment of the Yugoslav army. At

17 that time, one of the tanks was among the most modern in the world.

18 Q. I just want to know, is there a difference between a -- showing my

19 military ignorance, is there a difference between a platoon and a

20 squadron?

21 A. Yes. Three platoons -- three squads make up a platoon.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Three platoons make up a squad, interpreter's

23 correction.

24 MS. KORNER: Are you sure about that, interpreter? Okay. Right.

25 Thank you.

1 Q. I'm afraid there has been a mistranslation there.

2 Colonel Selak, then we see overall results, "The wider area of

3 Kozarac village, Kozaraca, Trnopolje, Jakupovici, et cetera, has been

4 entirely freed of Green Berets."

5 And then this, "80 to 100 Green Berets were killed and about 1.500

6 captured. Part of the Green Berets, 100 to 200 persons, at large on Mount

7 Kozarac. Our own casualties are five killed and 20 wounded."

8 Now, you touched on that. If as it is alleged in this report,

9 there were 1.500 to 2.000 Green Berets and you told us that how many men

10 the 343rd Brigade had, would you expect the casualties to be as low as

11 five killed and 20 wounded?

12 A. No. That's absurd. No professional soldier, if he read this,

13 would believe it, particularly if you know that 343rd Brigade was very

14 well equipped and well trained. In 1992, it was used to the utmost in

15 fighting in Croatia.

16 Q. And then it's signed by Colonel Marcetic. So was this his

17 official report to the 1st Krajina Corps command?

18 A. Yes. This is a report to the main staff of the Serbian Republic

19 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it was signed by the chief of the control team

20 for that day, Colonel Marcetic, who had to make a report to the main

21 staff. And the communication centre received it at 2100 hours and then

22 sent it on at 22 hours 15.

23 Q. And was that after the time of the meeting that you have described

24 in your notebook?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Thank you. And then attached to this document, is there a list of

2 the 1st Krajina Corps's effective strength? Although I think it was a

3 separate document.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Because the dating and timing is -- and I don't think we need

6 trouble to go through these figures at this stage. Thank you.

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, could that be made 1587, please?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

10 MS. KORNER:

11 Q. Now, I want to ask you to look, please, at one more document and

12 then your notebook for the 1st of June. Could you be shown, please,

13 attachment 2 to that statement of the 13th of July, 2000?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I want you to look at the document, thank you. Sorry, what's he

16 been given? Thank you very much, Colonel Selak, can you hand back the

17 previous document?

18 This is dated the 1st of June, from the 1st Krajina Corps,

19 addressed to the main staff, and it's a combat report, and it describes

20 the situation in the units under item 2. The 1st Krajina Corps units in

21 the area of -- areas of Prijedor, Sanski Most, Prijedor -- Kljuc, Sanski

22 Most, and Jajce, in control of the situation and are continuing the

23 mopping up of the terrain and the seizing of weapons from formation

24 members."

25 Now, what do you understand -- what is the meaning of the military

1 use of the term "mopping up"?

2 A. The term "mopping up" implies the clearing of terrain of enemy

3 soldiers, of enemy units, the manpower of enemy units and I'm speaking now

4 in the military sense.

5 Q. Does it have anything to do with physically pushing a brush around

6 a floor or a piece of ground or something like that? The civilian use of

7 a mop-up?

8 A. No, no. We are talking here about ethnic cleansing, the removal

9 of people from that area. In the military sense, that is clear. Clearing

10 the terrain of enemies, enemy peoples from that terrain, of Muslims and

11 Croats.

12 Q. Yes. I understand that's what happened here but I'm just -- I

13 just want, in normal terms, if it wasn't for this situation, you say

14 "ethnic cleansing." I just want to know, if it was used - not in the

15 terms of this conflict - it would have meant simply clearing the terrain,

16 would it, of the enemy?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. Please, if I may inform the Court, the Trial Chamber, about the

20 previous document that I looked at, when I said that 343rd Brigade had

21 3.000 people, in the document that I had a minute ago, it states clearly,

22 gives a list of the manpower of the units, and that brigade actually

23 numbers 5.500 men. So I'm correcting myself. Not 3.000 but 5.500 people,

24 and this is stated in a report by the corps.

25 Q. Yes. You're quite right, Colonel Selak, I whipped it away too

1 quickly. That's right.

2 All right. Now, can we look, please, at -- I'm sorry.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, could that be made P1588?

4 Q. Can we go back to your notebook?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. For the 1st of June, I think you had a number of meetings that

7 day, did you? Because it starts -- or was this a meeting, all one meeting

8 with the commander? Was it all one meeting with the commander of the 1st

9 Krajina Corps, General Talic?

10 A. No. On the 1st of June, I had a meeting with my officers from the

11 command, from my base, and after that, I made a report to the commander of

12 the 1st Krajina Corps.

13 Q. All right. Just dealing with your meeting, first of all, you've

14 recorded, have you, that on -- you were providing rations for 119.000,

15 nearly 120.000 men?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you note that the 2nd Krajina Corps had approximately 22.000

18 men?

19 A. Yes. It is the correct number, 22.000, at that point that was the

20 number of men in the 2nd Krajina Corps.

21 Q. All right. So if you were actually also providing rations at that

22 stage, were you, for the 2nd Krajina Corps? Because if we look at a note,

23 you say excluding the 2nd Krajina Corps, that's for ours, our benefit,

24 over the page, 159, there were 78.780?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. There was Sipovo and Srbac and Doboj?

2 A. Yes. Sipovo and Srbac had a brigade each numbering 1.800 men and

3 the operative group of Doboj had 15.000 men, which makes about 100.000

4 people in the 1st Krajina Corps. The 2nd Krajina Corps had 20.000 people.

5 Q. I think that's all I want to ask about your meeting with your

6 corps. Did you then, however, have a meeting with the 1st Krajina Corps

7 commander, General Talic?

8 A. Yes. The same day, in the afternoon, I had a meeting or I

9 reported to the commander of the 1st Krajina Corps, General Talic.

10 Q. Now, you've recorded there that there was a most difficult

11 situation in the Bosnian Krajina, maybe in Banja Luka too. Muslims were

12 dying because of Croats. This is the case in Prijedor. First, who is

13 speaking? Whose remarks are those?

14 A. These are General Talic's words.

15 Q. What did he mean -- or what did you understand him to mean when

16 you recorded, "Muslims were dying because of Croats. This is the case in

17 Prijedor"?

18 A. He said that because Muslims had placed themselves on the side of

19 the Croats. They were joining their army, and that is why they were

20 getting killed. And what happened in Bosanska, Krajina, and Kozarac and

21 broader happened precisely because of that, because the Muslims took the

22 side of the Croats and that is why the corps did what it did.

23 Q. And then under assignments, "Arm all soldiers at Manjaca." And

24 then you've recorded and you've ticked that. And under 4, prisoner of war

25 camp at Manjaca urgent for approximately 2.500 people.

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was -- in general terms, what was the discussion about

3 Manjaca at that stage?

4 A. The corps commander, during the reporting, issued tasks, and I

5 wrote down the word "assignments". Under 1, he ordered that all soldiers

6 at Manjaca should be armed. The paramilitary formations that were being

7 trained at Manjaca, each of those people in those forces were not

8 personally issued with a weapon. They had tank firing training, training

9 from rifles, machine-guns, cannon and so on. So this order states that

10 soldiers should be issued with infantry weapons, rifles, semi-automatic

11 rifles, individually, and they should also sign after each one receives an

12 individual weapon, because during the training, they are not issued with

13 weapons.

14 Q. And then, under 4, where was the figure of 2.500 people coming

15 from?

16 A. I did not know where people were supposed to come from, but this

17 provided scope for creating a camp for prisoners of war at Manjaca for

18 approximately 2.500 people.

19 Q. All right. Now, again, could you now look in connection with that

20 at a document which was attachment 1 to the statement of the 13th of July,

21 2000? Document dated -- appears to be dated 1993 but that's a typing

22 error, I think.

23 Can you just tell us, what is the date? I think what's happened

24 is it's the photocopy is very bad.

25 A. This is the 7th of June, 1992, when the camp for prisoners of war

1 at Manjaca was opened.

2 Q. It does look as though it's 1993 when you get to the next -- but

3 it's obviously an error, I think. On the basis of the order of the main

4 staff, the 7th of June --

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the witness.

6 MS. KORNER: Actually, Your Honour, that may be right, having put

7 that in, I'm not sure that is.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically, Ms. Korner, it seems that on the

9 original, on the B/C/S, the year 1993 --

10 MS. KORNER: Does appear.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Doesn't appear once.

12 MS. KORNER: It appears twice.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It appears three times. It appears in the reference

14 353 something/93. Then it appears immediately beneath that, 07/06/1993.

15 Then it appears again, three, four, lines, the first line of the first

16 paragraph, second line. So --

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think I'll ask the Colonel, but I

18 need -- I think -- before I put this in, we know Colonel Popovic was

19 appointed but I do know that the camp was then reopened again later. So I

20 think --

21 Q. Despite the fact it says 1993 and it seems to deal with members of

22 the HVO --

23 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour, I think if I may I'll leave this and

24 I need to do a check because I don't want to take a false point with the

25 witness.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Allow me just to say two words in

3 connection with this.

4 MS. KORNER:

5 Q. Certainly.

6 A. The camp for prisoners of war at Manjaca was closed down on the

7 15th of December, 1992.

8 Q. Yes. That's right. But -- well, I'm sorry, perhaps, Colonel, you

9 better tell us the answer. Have you seen this order? Because it does say

10 1993. Is this an order you've seen before or saw at the time?

11 A. No. I never saw this order before.

12 Q. All right. Colonel, I think I'll leave it and check it and come

13 back to. Thank you very much, perhaps after a break.

14 Can we then, please, now -- I think in -- look at a meeting that

15 in fact was on the 4th of June, 1992, at our page 167. Now, this is a

16 meeting at the Banja Luka municipal assembly with the President of the

17 Banja Luka municipal assembly and director-general of a particular

18 company. Have you found that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And it seems to be dealing with Kosmos. Do you know how this

21 meeting came about, why you attended a meeting at the municipal assembly?

22 A. I was commander of the logistics base and what Radi Cajevec did,

23 as well as the Kosmos overhauling facility, I was the one who took over

24 these commodities, these goods, and I put them in warehouses or rather

25 sent them out to various units. So I was directly in charge of that, and

1 I invited to this meeting precisely for that reason.

2 Q. All right. The introductory remarks were made by Mr. Radic, the

3 president of the assembly. Did you also record, however, that Brdjanin

4 was at this meeting?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Because you've recorded him as saying that the production of

7 ammunition and so on and so forth must begin as soon as possible.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Again, this is a long time ago, and if you can't remember, please

10 say so. Do you have any recollection now of this meeting, apart from your

11 note?

12 A. I remember that meeting. General Djukic attended and General

13 Ninkovic. There was my second meeting at president Radic's. The first

14 one was when I was head of the group for cooperation with the United

15 Nations that had to do with facilities. And this was the second one I

16 attended.

17 Q. All right. I think that's all I want to did you about that. Can

18 we move, then, and there is only two more entries in your notebook that I

19 want to look at -- before we do that because we are going to move to very

20 shortly before you left the army.

21 Could you look, please, at another document, which has already

22 been produced? It's P256.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I say I've been given some

24 instructions that that document is 93, when the camp was reopened, the one

25 I tried to show the witness.

1 Q. Now, this is a note of a meeting on the 22nd of June, with General

2 Talic. I think it should read -- is the next person there -- it's been

3 recorded by I think Mr. Medic who made the note, as Colonel Vuketic.

4 Should that be Vukelic or was there a Colonel Vuketic?

5 A. No. Colonel Vukelic was present. Milutin Vukelic. This is a

6 mistake. It's probably a typo.

7 Q. It's been typed in the original as -- yourself, and then from

8 the -- there were various representatives of Muslim organisations.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You yourself, I don't think, recorded this meeting in your diary,

11 did you -- in your, I'm sorry, notebook.

12 A. I had an official notebook that was of small pocket format, and it

13 remained in Banja Luka. Unfortunately, I haven't got that notebook

14 anymore and I did record this meeting in that notebook.

15 Q. Right. Now, you've had a chance to read through this note, even

16 though it wasn't made by you. Was that an accurate record of the

17 discussions that took place between General Talic and the gentlemen

18 representing the Bosniak organisations?

19 A. Yes. This is a realistic portrayal. I have nothing special to

20 add.

21 Q. Well, I want to ask you about one thing that was said to General

22 Talic, in respect of Manjaca. If we look at the -- I think it's the

23 fourth paragraph, "Gratitude was expressed to the general for enabling a

24 visit to the captured Muslims and Croats who were in the military base at

25 Manjaca. And General Talic was informed of some, what's called,

1 characteristics, what the overwhelming majority were peaceful citizens who

2 had been called to a meeting and then arrested, picked up, that they were

3 treated extremely badly when they arrived at the camp, and that the

4 accommodation at the camp was clearly contrary to the regulations of the

5 Geneva Convention."

6 Now, was that said, to your knowledge, to General Talic?

7 A. I attended the meeting. I took part in the discussion there.

8 Talic was told that people were arrested, even people who were beyond the

9 age of 60, even people who had never been soldiers, intellectuals were

10 arrested, and how should I put this, prominent figures, Croats and

11 Bosniaks, although there were far lesser Croats. I was invited by General

12 Talic to attend this meeting, in order for them to show to Muslim

13 organisations that there were still active-duty officers in the army who

14 were ethnic Muslims.

15 Q. Now, did he express any horror or surprise when this was said to

16 him?

17 A. On the basis of this information he heard from the persons who

18 were quoted from this list, he promised that the situation would calm

19 down, and that he was surprised, however, I mean, that Muslims had to

20 accept this government, to go by the rules, things along those lines.

21 However, even after this meeting, the situation was far worse than it had

22 been before that. I have been a witness of these events, and if

23 necessary, I can testify about that separately.

24 Q. No. I know you yourself went to Manjaca, but Colonel Selak, the

25 Court has heard a lot of evidence and I don't think needs to hear any more

1 about what -- I'm just concerned at the moment, please, about General

2 Talic. Did General Talic ever, in your presence, say that he would call

3 for an explanation from Colonel -- Lieutenant Colonel Popovic?

4 A. No, never. Lieutenant Colonel Popovic later on he got the rank of

5 Colonel, he issued orders on the basis of the orders he had received, and

6 on the basis of what he thought he should do with prisoners of war -- not

7 prisoners of war, civilian prisoners, at Manjaca.

8 Q. Yes. Thank you. Now can we go, please, to the -- your notebook

9 again for the 3rd of July?

10 A. Just a moment, please. Yes.

11 Q. It's headed, "Kosmos maintenance and repair depot" there, and we

12 see that General Djukic was also there, because I think you've recorded

13 him as saying something. And then after the entry for General Djukic, you

14 have written out, have you not, the order that we looked at earlier of the

15 9th of June, about instructing officers of Muslim and Croat ethnicity to

16 take annual leave?

17 A. Just a moment, please. The 3rd of July, I have two, Rudi Cajevec

18 yes, Kosmos, 1030.

19 Q. Can you find General Djukic?

20 A. Yes, General Djukic, yes.

21 Q. And then after that, have you actually written out the order of

22 the main staff?

23 A. Yes. Underneath is the order of the main staff related to

24 officers of Muslim and Croat ethnicity, that they should be sent to annual

25 leave immediately.

1 Q. Exactly. Was that the fact that it appears in your diary, in

2 your --

3 A. All right.

4 Q. Is that the day that you were shown it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Then on the -- I think that's all, in fact, that I want to ask

7 you. If you just turn to the last page of your notebook, on this

8 notebook.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Have you written, "End of active military service?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Begun on the 27th of July, 1958, ended 30th of September, 1992?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. All right. Thank you very much, Colonel. You can put

15 your workbook -- your official notebook away now in your briefcase.

16 Can I ask you, please, to look at a couple more documents? First

17 of all, disclosure 4.1605, 1st Krajina Corps, order of the 5th of July or

18 report, rather.

19 This is, I think, a report -- it's described as an interim report

20 to the main staff, and states, "The head of the intelligence and security

21 organ of the 1st Krajina Corps, Colonel Milan Stevilovic was killed in

22 ambush organised by the Green Berets at about 1800 hours today, 5th of

23 July, 1992." And it explains the circumstances, that it was outside

24 Vrbanjci on the way to Kotor Varos, and his vehicle crashed into an

25 obstacle and he was then gunned down. And with him was Stefan Markovic.

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1 He was mutilated in the most savage manner, and as yet an unknown civilian

2 from Kotor Varos who was in the vehicle with him was also killed.

3 Now, the suggestion that this was a burst of enemy fire. From

4 your knowledge, and were you still in the corps on the 5th of July, were

5 there Muslim resistance brigades operating in Vrbanjci on the way to Kotor

6 Varos?

7 A. The area of Vrbanjci and Kotor Varos was under the control of the

8 1st Krajina Corps, and all communications along these lines were under the

9 control of the 1st Krajina Corps.

10 Q. Yes.

11 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour, can that be made, please,

12 Exhibit P1589?

13 Q. Now, next, I want you to look at, please, what we've described as

14 the war diary of the 1st Krajina Corps, and just deal with some of the

15 entries in there.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to ask that Ms. Gustin just

17 brings the original so that Colonel Selak can see it.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: If I read you well three days ago, because we have

19 only got one page.

20 MS. KORNER: Yes, exactly.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And that's what you're going to refer to.

22 MS. KORNER: No. I'm going to refer to a number of pages. I'm

23 going to put them on the ELMO and copy them.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

25 MS. KORNER: Could you give that to the witness, please, and then

1 I'll give you the pages that I'm going to refer to one after the other.

2 Q. Now, can you just explain to us, please, Colonel Selak, what

3 exactly a war diary is. What was the 1st Krajina Corps obliged to do?

4 A. A war diary is an official document which all units had to keep in

5 times of war. At the corps command, it was kept by the operative team on

6 duty on behalf of the commander and for the commander. This is an

7 official document about what goes on from the very beginning of war

8 operations until their very end.

9 Q. Right. Now, I would like you, please, first of all, just to look

10 at a few entries which I think you can assist with. Yes. Could you

11 please, Colonel, find -- you'll see there are some numbers at the top.

12 Could you find a number -- an ERN number that says 01304527?

13 A. Just a moment, please. Yes.

14 Q. And I'm going to ask, please, that page -- I'll give it to the

15 usher -- page 26 and then 27, be put on. The date for this, we'd have to

16 go back but it's the 29th of July. Do we see an entry that, "The Ozren

17 Battalion refused to organise defence in the Dobrnja sector. They

18 completely abandoned their positions and left for Ozren. The reason for

19 this is the poor authority of the battalion commanders, excessive drinking

20 and --"

21 A. No. I haven't got it -- oh, yes. "Ozren Battalion refused to

22 organise defence in the Dobrnja region," is that it?

23 Q. Yes. And the next page, "completely abandoned their positions,"

24 et cetera?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. "The 1st Battalion of the Prnjavor light Brigade have looted goods

2 such as household appliances, tractors, machines, and tools and are

3 preparing to take them home."

4 In the event of such -- an official report of looting, what action

5 should have been taken?

6 A. The corps commander would have had to replace this commander

7 immediately, to take measures, disciplinary measures against him, even up

8 to Prosecution before a court of law. Other officers subordinated to that

9 battalion commander should be taken to task as well. Perhaps even the

10 entire battalion would have to be replaced, dismissed from the position

11 where they were, complete control would have to be exercised over all

12 persons in terms of who did the looting, and disciplinary measures would

13 have to be envisaged.

14 Q. All right. I want you just, please, before we move on, to just

15 identify the original. Is that the original?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Right. Now, can you look, please, at an entry for the 1st of

18 July? We see -- if you go to -- I think if you took the original, it's

19 probably easier for you, Colonel, and I'm going to ask, please, that page

20 34 and then 35 be put up.

21 A. 34, 35, yes.

22 Q. Forget -- no, no, no, no, Colonel, when I say 34, 35 it's not

23 you. It's the English translation so if you just find the 1st of July

24 entry.

25 A. Yes, I found it.

1 Q. Thank you. First of all if we look at our page 34, for the 1st of

2 July, we'll see that General Talic talked to the commanders and that there

3 was a request from General Mladic for information. And then if we put up

4 page 35, can we see that at 1500 hours, Brdjanin came with his escort to

5 visit the -- what's that?

6 A. The operative group.

7 Q. And where would that have been?

8 A. The operative group Plehan-Rabic is close to Derventa.

9 Q. All right. Would you expect a visit from the person who was in

10 charge of the government of the region to a military post?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Nothing, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. It's all right. Colonel, please answer the

14 question. If you want it repeated to you, we'll do that.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The question is clear. The

16 units in the front visits by representatives of the government, the

17 political organs, the general staff, these visits were something that were

18 necessary. The people liked that. They liked to get information. And

19 from this diary, you can see clearly that the soldiers were satisfied,

20 they were very happy, with Mr. Brdjanin's visit to the units in the

21 front. This meant moral support to them, from politicians from the top

22 authority, and who enjoyed -- who had authority, as far as the units in

23 the front were concerned.

24 MS. KORNER:

25 Q. Right. Can we look, then, please, at a couple of other entries,

1 if the usher could give me those pages back?

2 Could you find, please, Colonel, the entry for the 7th of July?

3 And we'll put up page 54, please.

4 Can you see an entry about "15 trucks were dispatched to Belgrade,

5 eight to Belgrade and seven to Bijeljina, to pick up various goods for our

6 unit"? It comes -- it comes under a report relating to Major Zeljaja?

7 A. Just one moment, yes.

8 Q. All right. Were you aware, because I think you were still just in

9 the corps then, on the 7th of July, that support was being received from

10 Belgrade for the 1st Krajina Corps's activities?

11 A. Yes. I'm saying that I personally sent columns of my vehicles

12 with all material equipment that the units required, not only the units

13 in -- of my corps but all the units in the area of responsibility, and

14 this is why the -- the corridor had to function. I also sent out the

15 salaries of the officers, the superior officers, and also to the -- to

16 the -- my financial reports to Belgrade, and fuel and all the other things

17 that were necessary, we received from the federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

18 And I have that also in my official notebook, when I would send Major

19 Pavlovic to collect the salaries from Belgrade.

20 Q. Just on that note, was your -- did you, throughout this period,

21 and on your retirement, was your salary paid by Belgrade? Your pension as

22 well?

23 A. Yes. All officers who were on the payroll of the Yugoslav

24 People's Army up to the 18th of May, 1992, were on the payroll of the army

25 of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I received my retirement benefits,

1 my pension, until May 1995, until -- from Belgrade, not only I myself

2 received it but all the other old-age pensioners too.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I don't know what's going to happen. I

4 think I'm going to take the rest of the day's session with him, so

5 Mr. Ackerman won't have to cross-examine in which case, are we going to

6 take a break now?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest we take a short break, if that is

8 okay with you. We'll restrict it to 15 minutes.

9 MS. KORNER: Certainly.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And then if possible we try and finish by 1.30 or a

11 little before, because I need to drive up.

12 MS. KORNER: In that case, Your Honour, I think I'll still have

13 the leftover of the videos for Monday morning -- Monday afternoon.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: That shouldn't present any problems to Mr. Ackerman.

15 MS. KORNER: Right.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a short break of 15 minutes. Thank

17 you.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

21 MS. KORNER:

22 Q. Colonel Selak, can you find the entry for the 8th of July in that

23 war diary, please, and could the usher put up page 59 and 60 on the ELMO

24 in the translation.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Can you turn to the part where at 1500 hours, Colonel Ninkovic

2 arrived?

3 A. 14, just one moment. Yes.

4 Q. And he arrived for talks on further air strikes. Further air

5 strikes on where, do you know?

6 A. Strikes on the positions of the opposing side. This is probably

7 about strikes on the Croatian side, across the Sava River, or in the

8 defence of the towns in places where the 5th Corps was attacking.

9 Q. And then at 1700 hours, Vojo Kupresanin, president of the

10 autonomous region of the Bosnian Krajina arrived and discussed with

11 General Talic the situation on the entire front.

12 MS. KORNER: And if you could turn over the page, usher, page 60,

13 Serbian army.

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. KORNER:

16 Q. He underlined that the Serbian government of Bosnia-Herzegovina

17 would do all it could to ensure that our army was organised and integrated

18 as a unified armed force with a unified command and without paramilitary

19 formations.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Then could you, on the same day, and could the usher put up now

22 page 62 -- no, no, I'm sorry, it's the following day. It's the 9th of

23 July. There is an entry that starts with the Sanski Most Battalion,

24 commanded by Major Brajic -- I'm sorry, can we one moment go back, I'm

25 sorry, there is one other thing I want to look at, page 61 for us. Yes,

1 could you put up page 61 on the ELMO? I think we see that there, "a 45

2 vehicle convoy for Serbia was announced."

3 Is that in the diary, Colonel?

4 A. Just one moment. I haven't found that. It's in handwriting, so I

5 apologise.

6 Q. All right. If you see --

7 A. I cannot --

8 Q. 9th of July?

9 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes. 9th of July, a 45-vehicle convoy for Serbia

10 has been announced, yes.

11 Q. And then going along the same entry, and if the usher could put up

12 page 62 again, please, now. Do we see, "the Sanski Most Battalion

13 commanded by major Brajic abandoned its position and is preparing to

14 return home to Sanski Most with booty and the general said that Major

15 Brajic should immediately be sent to prison, tried for failure to carry

16 out orders and for bringing other soldiers into a hopeless situation."

17 Do you know who Major Brajic was?

18 A. Yes. Major Brajic, a Serb, I don't know where he's from, he's

19 from Bosnia but I don't know from what town, battalion commander and he

20 was replaced from his post. I don't know what happened to him later.

21 Q. Then can we move now to the 10th of July, page 64 for us, and I'll

22 ask that that's put up.

23 I think it follows that -- it starts -- this entry starts with

24 "General Mladic having called and been updated, and then the priest of

25 Tolisa arrived in the morning to see if work had begun on refurbishing the

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1 church. He greeted General Talic, Colonel Simic, and Minister Martic."

2 Do you know who is meant there by Minister Martic?

3 A. Minister Martic is from the Republic of the Serbian Krajina from

4 Croatia. I never knew Mr. Martic personally.

5 Q. Is that Milan Martic?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. All right. And then finally, on -- all I want to deal with you on

8 this document, please, could you go to the 26th of July, please? And I'm

9 going to put up --

10 A. Just one moment.

11 Q. Don't worry, I'm going to -- pages 123 and pages 124 of the --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- translation. This entry is --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't you -- it's all right because he's not seeing

15 this, what we are seeing on the ELMO. But I see markings on the page

16 highlighting, and then.

17 MS. KORNER: Sorry, can I have it back. It's my own.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And then a note.

19 MS. KORNER: You can see how I sometimes have to remind myself of

20 the question I want to ask. Thank you. No. Sorry, 123. Thanks.

21 Q. The entry itself for that day is headed, "Duge Njive." That's

22 the name of the place? I hear the interpreter.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And where is that?

25 A. Duge Njive, I'm not sure exactly where that is. That is a forward

1 command post of the corps. I believe that it's somewhere between

2 Derventa -- somewhere close to Derventa but I don't know, I'm not sure. I

3 wasn't there. It's not close to Banja Luka. It's close to Derventa,

4 that's where Duge Njive is, but I couldn't really tell you the exact

5 location. I know that there was a forward command post there.

6 Q. Now, we see that that day, in the morning, security was stepped up

7 because of the consecration of a newly built church in honour of the new

8 Serbian martyrs. No problems during the ceremony. And then we can see

9 that General Ninkovic was there, Milan Martic, General Djukic, Arkan, and

10 the entire ceremony was attended by the bishop of Tuzla?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then next page, Mr. Usher, please, 124, just turn it over.

13 Usher? 124, please. Oh, yes. In addition, there were the President of

14 the Doboj municipal assembly, the chairman of the executive committee and

15 other guests?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. "And the godfather of the church was Colonel Simic and the whole

18 consecration ceremony was filmed by Belgrade TV and there were interviews

19 with General Talic, Colonel Simic and others. This will be historical

20 evidence of how the Serbian army built a church during the war and handed

21 it over to the church authorities."

22 Two things about that. Were you aware at that stage, and had you

23 yourself seen anywhere, the destruction that was taking place of mosques

24 and Catholic churches in many of the municipalities in Krajina?

25 A. Yes. I was a witness to that, unfortunately. Also in Banja Luka,

1 all the facilities were knocked down, and also throughout Bosanska

2 Krajina, both the Catholic and Muslim facilities.

3 Q. You mentioned --

4 A. This is vandalism which has not been seen in the world.

5 Q. You mentioned Banja Luka. Were any mosques destroyed during 1992?

6 A. In 1992, I'm not sure. I don't think any were destroyed in 1992.

7 I'm not sure. I cannot remember the dates but the destruction did begin.

8 I was already retired. In the month of November, yes.

9 Q. All right. Now, what was the importance for all of these people,

10 the commander of the air force, Mr. Martic from Knin or the Serbian

11 Republic of Krajina, General Djukic, Arkan, and all the rest of them,

12 what's the importance of all these people being seen at this ceremony?

13 A. This was of major significance, because the ceremony was filmed

14 both by TV Banja Luka and TV Belgrade. Reports were also given over the

15 radio station and they were directed at the Serbian people and the Serbian

16 fighters in all units of the Army of Republika Srpska, about -- and it was

17 aimed at raising their morale. And these politicians, by their presence,

18 made this event even more significant, both the politicians and the

19 military leadership, and even Milan Martic came from Croatia.

20 The Serbian people and the fighters felt that this was a

21 significant event. Meaning that the army was helping in the construction

22 of Orthodox religious facilities while it was destroying all the others.

23 Q. Yes. Thank you.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that's all that I ask about this

25 document, although tomorrow morning, when the videos -- Monday, when the

1 videos are played, I may want to go back to just one entry.

2 Your Honours, may I ask that the photocopy become an original,

3 that the original -- the exhibit -- the original will be available for the

4 Defence to have a look at if they want but it is going to be required in

5 other trials so I don't want it to be made an exhibit here.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine that is acceptable to you,

7 Mr. Ackerman, correct.

8 So that's how it will be, Ms. Korner.

9 MS. KORNER: That's you very much. That's P1590.

10 Q. Now, Colonel Selak, I think -- I just want to check whether I need

11 to put in any of -- yes, I think maybe we had better just deal with your

12 official handover, if I can find the document. Yes. Could we have a

13 look, please, at the report of the 14th logistics base, dated the 10th of

14 July, 1992? The number on that is 00349346. And it's the third

15 document -- he's already got it but it's the third document, the second

16 page of the list.

17 Colonel Selak, does that show the transfer of your duties between

18 yourself and the officer who took your position, Colonel Skondric, on the

19 10th of July?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can that, please, be made Exhibit 1591?

23 I'm just wondering whether -- I don't think we need to deal with any other

24 documents. I think it's right, as you told us, and we can see from your

25 diary, you actually finally retired officially in September?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, I want to ask you -- I want to move at the end of this to

3 deal with General Talic and Mr. Brdjanin as separate topics, but can I

4 just ask you this: During the period of time that -- 1992, that you were

5 in Banja Luka, did you join any kind of resistance group?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And firstly, what kind of group was it? And I'm not asking you

8 for names or anything like that; I just want to know what sort of group it

9 was.

10 A. It's a group of my colleagues, Bosniaks, who felt it was necessary

11 to organise themselves, who wanted to see how they could help the Muslim

12 people in Banja Luka to protect them from genocide, to survive in Banja

13 Luka, and how we could do this. This is why we organised ourselves at

14 that time, in mid-1992.

15 Q. Did you take any physical action to instigate any arming of any

16 resistance groups? In other words, did you yourself procure or supply any

17 weapons, to any group that was resisting the Serbs?

18 A. Not a single weapon, not a single bullet. We did not plan any

19 armed action. No sabotage. We did not have any weapons. We did not give

20 any to anyone.

21 Q. We've seen the size of the 1st Krajina Corps in Banja Luka at this

22 time. What prospect did you see of being able to mount a successful armed

23 rebellion?

24 A. In order to mount a successful armed rebellion, one had to have

25 well-trained men, also well-equipped with explosives and ammunition and

1 weapons. However, I knew that the Banja Luka Corps had about 100.000

2 men. I knew that this was the strongest corps in the former Yugoslav

3 People's Army, and any kind of armed action would precisely be used by the

4 corps and the Crisis Staff for carrying out a mass genocide over the

5 Muslim people. Mosques were mined within 15 or 20 days, in order to

6 provoke the Muslim people to put up some kind of resistance, to engage in

7 sabotage so that the corps and the civilian police would get a pretext for

8 intervention and ethnic cleansing.

9 We were precisely striving against such individual actions, and we

10 prevented that. However, at the same time, we suggested to people to

11 leave Banja Luka, to save their skins, because what happened in Kozarac

12 would have been incomparably greater in Banja Luka.

13 Q. I think, however, that you did provide such information as you

14 could about the events that were taking place in Banja Luka; is that

15 correct? And in the corps?

16 A. Yes. The information that we obtained from the resistance staff,

17 which I commanded, we sent this information to Sarajevo, concerning the

18 things that were going on, the arrests of more prominent people, more

19 educated people, among the Bosniaks, about the physical maltreatment,

20 arrest, killing and persecution that was taking place, the activities of

21 the Banja Luka Corps in that domain precisely, ethnic cleansing. That is

22 the information that we sent to the government of the Republic of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo.

24 Q. And until such time as he fled Banja Luka in 1993, were you

25 cooperating on this aspect of information providing with Muharem Krzic,

1 the leader of the SDA in Banja Luka?

2 A. Perhaps a brief period of time, two or three months, I provided

3 two or three pieces of information that I had and the staff of the

4 resistance movement, about the actions that may follow, coming from the

5 air force, the corps units, in order to prevent a massacre.

6 Q. Now, you told us that you remained in Banja Luka until 1995. How

7 were you able to do that?

8 A. Yes. I stayed in Banja Luka until 1995, when I handed over my

9 duty as commander of the logistics base. In mid-July, 1992, General

10 Talic, corps commander, invited me to his office. General Ninkovic,

11 commander of the air force of the Army of Republika Srpska, was in General

12 Talic's office.

13 Talic then said to me that I should not even consider moving out

14 of Banja Luka, that I cannot leave it, and that no one would touch me. I

15 asked him, "What do you mean nobody is going to touch me?" His answer was

16 that the army guarantees my safety. I asked him, "What about the Red

17 Berets and the civilian police?" His answer was, "I cannot give you any

18 guarantees on that." I was a bit tough. I said, "Whoever may break into

19 my apartment will be killed. I'll kill him."

20 After that, he ordered me to return the weapons I had. I said to

21 him that I would not carry any weapons through town. He said, "Why?" I

22 replied that the citizens of Banja Luka do not see a balija with weapons.

23 May I please explain this word "balija"? Balija is a derogatory term for

24 Muslims, and that is one that was used regularly by the Serbs. The next

25 day, a mayor -- a major and a NCO came to my apartment and they took my

1 weapon.

2 Q. Now, I want, then, to deal, please, with some of the public

3 statements that were made by General Talic during this period in

4 newspapers and on television, which we'll see, and after the period, on

5 television, for the rest of today I'd like to look at some things that

6 were reported in newspapers. Could you now first of all be shown, please,

7 an edition of Glas dated the 24th of April, 1992? It's disclosure

8 4.2168. We've got a copy here. I think we can see, can we, a photograph

9 of General Talic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was he opening some -- some sort of exhibition or event, Western

12 Slavonia in the whirlwind of war? And General Talic, if we look at the

13 text, stressed the link between July 1941 and June 1991, stressing that

14 "not even then, and certainly not now, did the people of Bosanska Krajina

15 buckle under in front of the rampaging of fascism."

16 Do you know, and if you don't, say so, Colonel Selak, had General

17 Talic's family suffered during the Second World War?

18 A. I personally do not know. I did hear that there had been

19 problems, but I don't have any accurate information, so I'm not sure.

20 Q. Thank you. That will be P1592.

21 Now, could you be shown the next edition of Glas for the 30th of

22 April, 1st of May, disclosure 2.107? And it's headed, "The Army Stays

23 Here."

24 This was a lengthy interview, we can see, with General Talic, as a

25 result, apparently, that -- of the withdrawal of JNA units from Bosnia and

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1 Herzegovina. There is then a description of General Talic as a child of

2 the Krajina, and his career. And then he said this: "Write this down and

3 underline it. Not a single bolt from a single tank of the Banja Luka

4 Corps will leave this territory, let alone anything larger." Then a

5 caveat that he didn't command absolutely everything.

6 And then there were a series of questions and answers, and I don't

7 want to go through everything. But could you find the part that's headed

8 in the original, "A Transformation Adapted to the Region"?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the reporter, apparently said to him that "The Autonomous

11 Region of Krajina has proposed the transformation of the army into forms

12 envisaged by the constitution of the Serbian Republic." And Talic

13 replied, "It is no secret that there is going to be a transformation of

14 the army. I would not like to --"

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- "talk now about what kind but I think it must be adapted to

17 each region, that it cannot be the same all over Yugoslavia. And when

18 this transformation comes, it is certain that the Autonomous Region of

19 Krajina will have its share of the army."

20 Do you remember reading this interview at the time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What did you understand he was saying when he said, "I think that

23 the army must be adapted to each region"?

24 A. He meant the Krajina Corps, the units of the Krajina Corps. He

25 said here explicitly that a new Yugoslavia was being created, a new army,

1 but that it will be organised according to zones within Yugoslavia. We

2 talked about that in town. We discussed this statement of his. And it

3 was clear to us the objective was clear, that is that they really wanted

4 to create some new kind of Yugoslavia with these regions of Bosanska

5 Krajina and the Krajina from Croatia, in addition to other territories.

6 There were a lot of comments about this in town, in Banja Luka, and that

7 is how I understood this interview.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we stop now?

9 MS. KORNER: I was going to try and finish the article, Your

10 Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Finish it.

12 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, I think it will take more than

13 five minutes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You'll do me a big favour.

15 MS. KORNER: Certainly.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Colonel Selak. We'll see each other

17 again on Monday afternoon, not morning. All right. Thank you.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19 1.24 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

20 the 20th day of January, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.

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