Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14008

1 Monday, 3 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you

10 hear me in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I can

12 and I understand.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, you may sit down.

14 Appearances for the Prosecution?

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: Good morning, Anna Richterova, Julian Nicholls

16 and Denise Gustin.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you. Appearances

18 for the Defence?

19 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I'm

20 attorney Milan Trbojevic and I have with me Marela Jevtovic, our

21 assistant.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. Good morning to

23 you. Yes?

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honours, I have two matters to raise which

25 concerns our coming witnesses, 7.53 and 7.66.

Page 14009

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes?

2 MS. RICHTEROVA: The first thing is it possible to go to private

3 session?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session.

5 [Private session]

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Page 14010

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20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Just to make sure that we are all aware of this,

22 that all the sittings of this week will be heard in the morning and not in

23 the afternoon. All right? And the same applies for next week except that

24 on Tuesday, we will not be sitting at all, it being a UN holiday.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 14011

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning to you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome back. Please go ahead by repeating your

4 solemn declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

10 Yes. Mr. Nicholls?

11 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Examined by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]

13 Q. Good morning, sir. I hope you had a restful weekend. I'm going

14 to first ask you just a few follow-up questions to clarify some matters I

15 think might not have been perfectly clear on the record from the last time

16 we were speaking together and then I will ask you some questions about

17 leaving the stadium and leaving Bosanski Novi, okay?

18 A. All right.

19 Q. First, when we spoke on Friday about the surrender of weapons by

20 the residents of Suhaca and then the search of the homes in Suhaca, you

21 talked about how the people were gathered in Josava, the residents of

22 Suhaca. Can you just tell me where did people gather? Was that in a

23 building or what kind of place during the surrender of the weapons and the

24 search?

25 A. Yes. That day, we gathered on a large field at the entrance to

Page 14012

1 the village of Josava and it was not inside a building.

2 Q. Thank you. You also spoke about the shelling of Suhaca and that

3 was on page 13963 of the transcript, and you said something to the effect

4 that most of the shelling was in the area near the mosques and I should

5 have asked you, were the mosques in Suhaca damaged during that shelling?

6 A. Yes. After the surrender of weapons, three days later the

7 shelling began. The mosques were targeted the worst but they were not

8 badly damaged. It was later on that the mosques were destroyed.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: Could the witness please be shown P1683.25? It's a

10 photograph.

11 Q. Now, I haven't shown you that photograph before. Have you ever

12 seen that photo before, sir?

13 A. No. I haven't seen the photograph before but I know the mosque.

14 Q. Can you tell me -- you say the mosque. Can you tell me which

15 mosque this was and where it was located -- where it is located?

16 A. Yes. It is the mosque in the Suhaca village.

17 Q. And if you can tell us, do you know whether this damage was caused

18 by the shelling or later, as you said that later on the mosques were

19 further destroyed or damaged.

20 A. While we were in Blagaj village, we had loud explosions, seven

21 days later two men went to Suhaca village to bring a man who was killed.

22 He was Numan Dedic. On that occasion, they saw that the explosives had

23 been set to the mosques and the minaret was lying on the ground.

24 Q. I know you weren't there at the time of the explosions but do you

25 know who damaged the mosque, who set these explosions?

Page 14013

1 A. I don't know that. That's not something I saw with my own eyes.

2 Q. Thank you. You talked several times on Friday about this man

3 Ranko Balaban, the Josava SDS representative. Can you tell me, if you

4 know, what his profession was before the war or what his job was?

5 A. I don't know exactly what his job was but I know he was a mechanic

6 by profession.

7 Q. Thank you. I have one question before we move on to the things we

8 haven't covered, and that is about the relationship between this man and

9 the SDS and the military which you personally observed. Just to recap,

10 you talked on Friday about the negotiations to surrender weapons for

11 Suhaca being conducted by the SDA representative from your village,

12 Barjaktarevic, and Mr. Ranko Balaban. If I understood you correctly,

13 while you were held at the Japra company, prior to being put on the

14 freight train, the same Ranko Balaban was there and identified Sifet

15 Barjaktarevic. And then finally, this same man, Ranko Balaban, was

16 present and acted as a guard at the Mlakve stadium -- Mlakve stadium when

17 you were held there and there were also military guards at that same

18 detention facility. During all these times which I've outlined, did you

19 see any conflict between the SDS and the military or can you describe how

20 relations between them were in the situations which you talked about?

21 A. During all these days we spent there, it's true it's one and the

22 same man who had been SDS president in Josava. He was later in Blagaj at

23 the stadium. But all that time he was wearing a military uniform and at

24 that time he was considered to be a soldier.

25 Q. Thank you. I want to talk now about how you came to leave the

Page 14014

1 stadium. First of all, do you remember which date it was that you left

2 the stadium, that you finally left?

3 A. Yes, I remember, the 23rd of July.

4 Q. Did you have any advance notice before that date that you would be

5 leaving?

6 A. There was no advance notice but those people who had family in

7 town, as we found out, could sign for the inmates and that's what some

8 people did, so some people who had family in town got out seven days in

9 advance of others.

10 Q. Could you explain to me what you mean by sign for the inmates, for

11 the Chamber?

12 A. Most of these people who were kept at the stadium had close

13 relatives in the town of Bosanski Novi, and the army in fact, their

14 representatives who were stationed at the hotel or at the fire house,

15 gave permission that the certificates that had to be signed could be

16 signed by the family. And that's what some people had done for them by

17 their family, relatives signed for them, the certificate, and some people,

18 about 80 of them, got out earlier than others.

19 Q. Now, could you tell me, and we will talk about what was in the

20 certificate, but when did you have your certificate signed? Did you sign

21 it yourself or have a family member do that for you?

22 A. I signed this document for myself. One but the last day before I

23 got out from the stadium.

24 Q. And can you tell us just about the process of how that took place,

25 how the men held in the stadium signed these certificates, the day before

Page 14015












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Page 14016

1 they were released?

2 A. One day before liberation, soldiers came from the stadium and two

3 men in civilian clothes, I don't know who they were, they brought desks

4 and lined us up on the turf of the stadium and an announcement was read

5 aloud to the prisoners, and a man later called out names. The man whose

6 name was called out had to run and to -- to the desks and then go back to

7 the line after signing.

8 Q. Were you able to read the documents that you signed?

9 A. Yes. I managed to read it, and it was also read out by the

10 prisoner who was designated to read it aloud to everyone else.

11 Q. And can you tell us what the -- what that document said? I'm sure

12 you don't remember word for word, but what were you signing? What was the

13 effect of that document?

14 A. The document read, "I so and so give up my movable and immovable

15 property and relinquish it to the Republika Srpska, the municipality of

16 Bosanski Novi."

17 Q. Did the document say anything else about where you were going or

18 what you were going to do next?

19 A. No. There was nothing written about that.

20 Q. Did you sign just one statement or more than one statement?

21 A. I signed only one statement, and I didn't sign anything else.

22 Q. And what happened after these statements had been signed? These

23 documents?

24 A. They called out names and on that occasion, they called out 18

25 people, but they separated only 15 because three had got out a couple of

Page 14017

1 days earlier. So they took 15 of us and took us away.

2 Q. And was anybody -- were any other men separated at this point from

3 the group?

4 A. Only those 15 men.

5 Q. And was anybody mistreated during this process? Can you tell me

6 about how -- a little bit more about how it was actually organised and

7 whether it was done properly? Or not properly but in a respectful

8 fashion.

9 A. Yes. One man was mistreated. It was Ibrahim Kantarevic. He was

10 a very sick man. During his stay at the camp, he lacked medication and he

11 didn't know what he was doing any more. He was beaten in order to sign

12 the paper and ultimately his brother signed for him. Apart from that,

13 there were no major incidents and the whole thing was carried through more

14 or less the way they wanted it.

15 Q. And then can you tell me how you and the other men came to

16 actually leave the stadium?

17 A. The next day after the signing, an UNPROFOR vehicle arrived and

18 stopped in front of the stadium. While buses and trucks filed into the

19 stadium. We got on to buses and trucks. At that time there were no

20 soldiers around us. They were standing only outside the stadium and these

21 buses and trucks took us across the bridge to Dvor Na Uni.

22 Q. If you know, were all the men released from the stadium on that

23 day?

24 A. Yes. That day, all the men were released. There were not enough

25 buses so the first groups who arrived in Dvor waited for a couple of

Page 14018

1 hours for the buses to return, and pick up the men who remained at the

2 stadium, but eventually everybody was transported away.

3 Q. Now, while you were being transported out, and while you were on

4 the truck or the bus, can you tell me what you saw? Did you see any

5 property damage as you were being taken out of the municipality?

6 A. Yes. That day I left the stadium in an open truck, so I could see

7 everything around me, mainly establishments and houses belonging to

8 Muslims were destroyed. The department store was burned down. That's

9 mainly what I saw.

10 Q. Did you -- were you able to see any mosques as you were being

11 taken out of the municipality?

12 A. Yes. One could see both mosques and both were destroyed.

13 Q. Did you see any -- did you see an Orthodox Church as you were

14 being transported?

15 A. Yes. One could see an Orthodox Church, but that one was not

16 destroyed. It stood there the way it had before the war.

17 Q. And once you were taken out and you arrived in Croatia, did you

18 meet with any family members? Were you able to reunite?

19 A. Yes. We arrived in Karlovac where I found my wife. We talked and

20 she told me that she had gone through via Derventa, Rijeka, Zagreb and

21 ended up in Karlovac where the two of us met.

22 Q. How many Muslims from Suhaca remained in Suhaca by the end of

23 1992?

24 A. Not a single one.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to show the witness now Exhibit 1681,

Page 14019

1 please. This is a cantonal court Bihac, 28 October, 1998 record of

2 exhumation.

3 Q. Sir, I believe I showed you this document earlier. If you could

4 look at page 2 of the original in your language, and I'm sorry that the

5 copy is not perfect, the last paragraph on the bottom of page 2, starts on

6 13 October, 1998, another mass grave was exhumed at the Blagaj Japra

7 Dubrava location and it continues. If you look at the next page,

8 Witness, and look at the fourth paragraph down in the original B/C/S, I'd

9 like you to read that to yourself and just let me know when you're done.

10 That should be the paragraph identifying the men found in that grave.

11 A. I've read it, yes. These were found there.

12 Q. Can you tell me, you've talked about some of these men in your

13 testimony. Can you read out the names of the men who you knew, the names

14 you recognise in that paragraph?

15 A. Yes. I knew Hasan Merzihic, who was a waiter in Suhaca, and the

16 two brothers, Isakovic, Nijaz and Karanfil. As with this elderly woman, I

17 had heard about her. Sulejman Burzic, I didn't know him personally but I

18 know that his son-in-law was a conductor on our local bus.

19 Q. All right. And then just let me try to go through this quickly.

20 Sulejman Burzic, that is the man you saw murdered in the Japra company

21 before boarding the train; is that right?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. And that is true, as well, of Hasan Merzihic?

24 A. Yes. Hasan Merzihic was killed on the road which I was able to

25 see from the train, and the two Isakovic brothers had remained on the

Page 14020

1 bridge after we had crossed it.

2 Q. And those are the two brothers which I think you said you saw --

3 testified that they were -- had their hands tied with wire and their heads

4 were hanging low?

5 A. Yes. Those were the two brothers.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I also have the autopsy records of

7 these four persons which the witness can go through and identify as well.

8 They are attached to the same report. Otherwise, I'm finished, unless you

9 think that would be helpful to the Chamber to have him go through the

10 actual reports on these four men.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you expect to get from him, if he does

12 precisely that?

13 MR. NICHOLLS: Just further authentication, Your Honour, but these

14 haven't been objected to. I think the authentication was stipulated to by

15 Mr. Ackerman so it may not be necessary.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's up to you. I'm not going to tell you whether

17 it's necessary or not because that's something that you ought to gauge,

18 assess.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: I have no further questions. Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

21 Mr. Trbojevic? Now, Mr. Trbojevic, who is appearing for the

22 accused in this case, will be cross-examining you. And your duty is to

23 answer all the questions that he puts to you, as fully and as truthfully

24 as you have done with regard to the questions that the Prosecution put to

25 you. You have no right to distinguish between Defence and Prosecution

Page 14021

1 here. That's of course unless we tell you not to answer any particular

2 question.

3 Mr. Trbojevic?

4 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Trbojevic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I should like to ask you a few questions in

7 order to clarify certain things. On the basis of the statement that you

8 gave to the OTP on the 11th of December, 1998. At the very beginning of

9 your statement, page 2, paragraph 7, you talk about the fact that there

10 had been no police station in Suhaca before the war, but that, however,

11 five to six policemen were on patrol in order to protect the village. In

12 Serb villages they were Serb police and in Muslim villages they were

13 Muslims?

14 A. Yes, that is correct. It is true that there were no police

15 station in Suhaca and there was just a reserve police force made up of the

16 residents from the Bosanski Novi town. There was no possibility to have a

17 mixed police in Suhaca because the Serbs did not dare go on patrol -- did

18 not want to go on patrol in Suhaca and the Muslims still didn't dare

19 organise themselves.

20 Q. Well, somebody had to organise these patrols?

21 A. Yes, like I said, a list with names had been made up in Bosanski

22 Novi and volunteers were being sought for that purpose.

23 Q. Wasn't the case that the number of people would rotate in Suhaca?

24 A. Not only in Suhaca but in Donji Agici -- Donji Agici and in other

25 villages. I think that Gojko Davidovic, for instance, was responsible for

Page 14022












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Page 14023

1 that in Donji Agici and in these other villages, they were -- there were

2 other people, other volunteers, who had volunteered for that task.

3 Q. Well, somebody had to issue them weapons?

4 A. The Bosanski Novi police station, they had given them weapons,

5 ammunition and when the weapons were handed over in Suhaca, they were

6 asked, they were needed to report what they had. The reservists also had

7 to surrender their weapons.

8 Q. So if we are still talking about the spring, 1992 --

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. This was all part of the Bosanski Novi police station. It

11 functioned as a part of the Bosanski Novi police station?

12 A. Correct. This was not a police force that had organised

13 themselves on their own. It was not a local Suhaca police. It had all

14 come from Bosanski Novi.

15 Q. I assume that there were important reasons to organise these

16 patrols?

17 A. There probably were but I was not aware of them. People walked

18 around normally during the day, they did not harass anyone, they didn't

19 even control anyone. I don't know why they moved around the village at

20 all, why they patrolled the village.

21 Q. Well, in late 1991, due to the combat activities in Croatia,

22 didn't a large number of soldiers pass through the village carrying

23 weapons, equipment and ammunition?

24 A. Yes. That is correct. A number of troops with weapons and

25 equipment passed through Bosanski Novi but they did not control them.

Page 14024

1 They just wanted to make sure that there would be no incidents. Some of

2 our neighbours were telling that they were very well equipped, very well

3 paid. One could see them around the village in those days, carrying

4 weapons, riding the local bus.

5 Q. We heard from various witnesses that the reservists who were on

6 leave with weapons caused a lot of problems wherever they went. Was that

7 the case in your village as well?

8 A. Yes. They would mostly be drunk, they opened fire. It was

9 perfectly normal type of behaviour when getting off the buses, they would

10 open fire and shoot in the air.

11 Q. These patrols, were they tasked with preventing this type of

12 behaviour?

13 A. Yes. They had that task among others as well but they didn't

14 dare, they couldn't control soldiers.

15 Q. Since the area in question was close to the border, was there a

16 lot of smuggling from one side of the border to the other?

17 A. I'm not aware of that. There had always been smuggling a lot of

18 smuggling in the area, but as soon as the war started, they assumed

19 control over the bridge between Bosanski Novi and Dvor so that activity

20 decreased significantly.

21 Q. Were there any Croatian reservists coming over?

22 A. No. People who passed through the Japra valley were mostly local

23 residents from neighbouring villages, and I knew most of them.

24 Q. Tell us, please, if there were any Muslim members serving in

25 Croatian units, Muslims who had been mobilised into Croatian units, from

Page 14025

1 the area of Bosanski Novi?

2 A. Well, there were probably such cases but I guess they were in

3 Croatia.

4 Q. Would they come home on leave? Did they show up?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You said that after the election, Serbs dismissed a large number

7 of Muslims from work?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Were you referring to the period of early 1991? Because the

10 elections had taken place in 1990?

11 A. Well, not from the very beginning. They kept working for a while,

12 but then they were soon being dismissed for trivial reasons. I know of a

13 case of Adem Barjaktarevic, he had organised a rally in Suhaca as a form

14 of protest against these dismissals. Gojko Davidovic and Ljuban, who was

15 a doctor in Donji Agici, also attended this rally. It was a peaceful

16 normal rally but despite that fact, he was dismissed and I think that that

17 was the reason for his dismissal.

18 Q. On page 3 of your statement, you discuss the issue of negotiations

19 concerning the surrender of weapons, the negotiations conducted by Sifet

20 Barjaktarevic and Ranko Balaban.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You told us that the weapons had been surrendered, that the

23 village had been searched, and that there were no longer any problems in

24 this respect.

25 A. Yes, that is correct. Weapons were handed in. We spent the whole

Page 14026

1 day on a meadow near Josava while they were searching the village.

2 And when they came back they said everything is all right, you can go on

3 with your normal lives, but three days later things got complicated.

4 Q. On page 3 in paragraph 3, you said that in March, 1992, Serbs

5 established a Crisis Staff in Josava and that in Bosanski Novi and Suhaca,

6 you already had an emergency service which was supposed to be excavated in

7 cases of disaster. Are you saying that there had been an emergency staff

8 that was already in place?

9 A. We had to organise something because we felt abandoned by

10 everyone. We didn't have any rights whatsoever. Whenever we made any

11 requests, they were to no avail so we had to organise ourselves in order

12 to have something done. And that is how this convoy was organised. The

13 objective was to try to reach Croatia with as many casualties -- as --

14 with as few casualties as possible.

15 Q. Could you be a little more specific concerning the negotiations?

16 A. I don't know much about them. Sifet attended these negotiations

17 and whenever he came back, he would say, "Well, I wasn't able to do

18 anything. They are not letting us be. We have to try and go over to

19 Croatia." But he himself didn't know what would happen.

20 Q. You said that he would convey to you what they had said, that is

21 that they were not letting you go to Croatia. Can we therefore conclude

22 that one of the requests was to go to Croatia?

23 A. Yes. But while we were -- when we were in Blagaj, while we were

24 still in our homes, this was not the subject of these negotiations. So it

25 was raised only later on. Yes, later when we were all in Blagaj, while we

Page 14027

1 were still in our homes we didn't plan to leave anywhere. We even thought

2 that we would return home from Blagaj at one point.

3 Q. You said that the shelling lasted for about five weeks?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. And that soldiers appeared after the shelling.

6 A. Soldiers would come and ask what was going on almost every day.

7 They would look for Sifet, and they would talk to him, go back in the

8 evening and then they would start the -- and the shelling would start

9 again until the last day, until the 24th, when they said that they could

10 not protect us, that some troops, some soldiers, were in the area in the

11 vicinity of the Agicka Brda and that we should gather together and go to

12 the municipality building in Bosanski Novi. We got as far as Blagaj

13 but could not proceed. They wouldn't let us go on.

14 Q. What soldiers, what troops, are you referring to? Are you

15 referring to local unit from Bosanski Novi or some other units that were

16 unknown to you?

17 A. On that day, when we were evicted and taken to Blagaj, those were

18 soldiers, military soldiers -- military police, at least that's what we

19 could judge, on the basis of their uniforms, but I knew most of them.

20 Q. So you knew these people, they were local residents?

21 A. Yes, correct.

22 Q. When you stopped at the Blagaj bridge, who stopped you, who were

23 the soldiers who stopped you at the Blagaj bridge?

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 14028

1 [redacted]

2 Q. And you told us that you had arrived in tractors, vehicles, and

3 you also told us that they had offered you to leave all the vehicles

4 behind, but you refused?

5 A. Yes, we refused because they told us that we should leave

6 everything and board the trains, and they said that -- but they said that

7 the trains were not leaving to Croatia but to Blagaj, and then we went

8 back but they came again and asked for Sifet in order to talk again.

9 Q. You told us that this time the talks lasted for about 17 days?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Do you know anything about the options that were on the table?

12 Who wanted what?

13 A. I heard that they suggested that we should leave everything and go

14 to Doboj by train, that we couldn't go to Croatia, but Sifet requested

15 that we be allowed to go towards Croatia, towards Dvor Na Uni and Hrvatska

16 Kostajnica.

17 Q. What did this offer mean, to go to Doboj, towards central Bosnia?

18 A. I don't know. They simply requested that we leave everything,

19 board the trains and continue in the direction of Doboj. What this meant,

20 I don't know.

21 Q. The assumption being that you would be transferred to the

22 territory of the federation?

23 A. Well in all likelihood but I'm not sure.

24 Q. Why would Croatia constitute a better option than the Federation

25 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

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Page 14030

1 A. Because most of the people had relatives there, over 70 per cent

2 of them had worked in Croatia, for instance, and they had accommodation in

3 Croatia, they knew where they would go once they reached Croatia. As for

4 Banja Luka and Doboj, the situation was not safe. We didn't know where we

5 would end up. Who knows? Maybe even in Serbia.

6 Q. Can we therefore conclude that Karlovac and Zagreb were better

7 options because they -- there was no military activity there as opposed to

8 Doboj and Banja Luka, where fighting was going on?

9 A. Yes, of course. A peaceful area is always a better option,

10 although at the time we didn't know if there was any fighting going on

11 there or not, whether it had finished or not.

12 Q. You described for us what happened to Burzic, Sulejman. Do you

13 know a person by the name of Zarko Janjetovic?

14 A. No, I don't know. I think he was some kind of leader from a

15 neighbouring village? Well, I don't know about the man who had killed

16 Burzic. I had only heard about Zarko or Dragan, I'm not sure but at any

17 rate the person worked at the Svodna company. I believe his name was

18 Dragan.

19 Q. You told us a name -- about a man by the nickname of Trnka?

20 A. Yes, Milan Balaban.

21 Q. You told us that he had killed six persons including a man by the

22 surname of Alic nicknamed as Cama, then Sifet who was a postman and then

23 Kemal who had a nickname Cukar or something like that?

24 A. Yes, Cukar.

25 Q. But you didn't witness the killing itself? You were only told

Page 14031

1 about it?

2 A. No, I didn't see it, though I was standing on the road when it

3 happened. There were a lot of other people with -- with me, and there was

4 a lot of commotion. People were shouting and they said that they had

5 already killed someone. So this was when this incident happened, but I

6 didn't see it myself.

7 Q. I'm asking you this because an eyewitness had seen these three

8 men. One of them being Camil Hasic, but others -- there were some other

9 different names that are also involved, and that's why I wanted to know

10 whether you had heard or seen this incident.

11 A. No, I personally didn't see them. But these two were indeed

12 killed.

13 Q. Finally, we have come to the convoy. So you were put on this

14 convoy at one point, and if I'm not mistaken you told us that the train

15 was not under escort?

16 A. No. I didn't see anyone. When we stopped in Prijedor, there were

17 some soldiers around the train but when we left, no, they had stayed

18 behind.

19 Q. What about the doors on the rail cars?

20 A. They were open while we were travelling from Prijedor to Banja

21 Luka.

22 Q. Did anyone try to escape?

23 A. I don't understand you.

24 Q. Did anyone try to escape from an open rail car?

25 A. We could have run, but at that moment, we didn't know what to do,

Page 14032

1 where to go, what shall I do, what would I do if I jump off at Prijedor or

2 Banja Luka?

3 Q. What was the situation like in Banja Luka? You said that some

4 soldiers were passing by, that they were shouting slurs at you, verbal

5 abuse?

6 A. Yes. That was after we returned, when only people were going

7 back. Well, this Yoya from Romanija, separated us at Ostruzna, separated

8 women and children from men, took us back and then the train stopped at

9 Banja Luka. At that time the train was closed and locked. The doors were

10 locked and even the windows. We had only holes to look through. We could

11 see a couple of soldiers shouting, "May Alija fuck you. Give us a zolja to

12 shoot you all. It is Alija who made sure you ended up like this," et

13 cetera.

14 Q. So at that point, you were not able to get out of the rail cars?

15 A. No. At that point, no.

16 Q. And they returned you to the stadium?

17 A. Yes, but first we stopped at Blagaj. Then I saw a policeman in a

18 normal blue uniform and this man even offered us water. Two of us got

19 out, found somewhere two buckets and managed to get water to the first two

20 rail cars on the train, and after that the train moved again.

21 Q. At that stadium, how did you find cover? Under the stands?

22 A. Well, we tried to settle down as best we could but we had only the

23 stands to hide under, because we were not allowed to move to the left or

24 right. We had to stick to the stands.

25 Q. Were there any superior officers at the stadium whom you could

Page 14033

1 call a commander of that camp?

2 A. No, not at the stadium. There were only guards one of which was

3 always the leader of the guard. There were a couple of people behind the

4 stands, on the stands, at the small gate, at the entrance to the stadium,

5 that was how they were positioned, but who was the leader, I don't know.

6 Their main command was at the fire fighting house or at the hotel.

7 Q. This brings us to the statements you signed.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. We had opportunity to see some of these statements here but we no

10 where saw the sentence to the effect that your property was relinquished

11 to Republika Srpska?

12 A. It said, "I leave all my movable and immovable property to

13 Republika Srpska, the municipality of Bosanski Novi." It said so loud and

14 clear.

15 Q. We had it sometime ago, I can't show it to you now, we were able

16 to look at it.

17 A. Unfortunately, I don't have it with me either.

18 Q. I won't dwell on it now. You said you left the stadium, that

19 about 18 people remained behind?

20 A. 15. 18 were called out.

21 Q. You say that you no longer know which of them could be alive and

22 which not?

23 A. I know about three of them.

24 Q. What about the others? Are you able to tell us?

25 A. I'm not sure about the others.

Page 14034

1 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Your Honour

2 I have no further questions.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Trbojevic. Is there

4 re-examination?

5 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour but could we go into private

6 session for one moment?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

8 [Private session]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]


15 [Open session]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. Do you have any questions?

17 Judge Janu has a question for you.

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE JANU: Just a minute ago, you were discussing with

20 Mr. Trbojevic the situation that there was possibility to escape from the

21 railway cars. Is it the truth that at that time you were already deprived

22 of your ID cards, ID papers?

23 A. Yes. That's true. At that time, I had no papers at all, because

24 we had been searched. Before that, at the Japra company. From the Japra

25 company compound we were put on the rail cars, and at that point the rail

Page 14035

1 cars were still open.

2 JUDGE JANU: And my second question is: You described for us the

3 situation when Zoran brought Sifet Barjaktarevic to the edge of the bridge

4 and you said that he pushed him away and then he was shooting at him. Can

5 you remember or could you observe that all this scene was also observed by

6 Ranko Balaban?

7 A. Yes. He was watching also, because he could see it. He was

8 standing not exactly at the bridge but near enough to see it all.

9 JUDGE JANU: And what was his reaction?

10 A. No particular reaction. He remained with that group, talking to

11 people, while Sifet was taken away. He didn't even look back to see what

12 would happen to him. He didn't say anything. He remained with his group

13 while the soldier took Sifet away to the bridge.

14 JUDGE JANU: Thank you, that's all.

15 A. Thank you very much.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I have a small question for you, mainly

17 intended to clear -- make clear one of the answers or one of the

18 statements that you made to the investigator in the course of your

19 interview of the 11th December, 1998.

20 Mr. Trbojevic reminded you, drawing your attention to part of your

21 statement, to when you had stated that we did not have a police station

22 before the war, which is indeed what you said in your statement. Then

23 you went on as follows: "Approximately one month before the war, there

24 were five to six policemen who patrolled each village in order to protect

25 it. In the Serb villages, there were Serb policemen. And in the Muslim

Page 14036












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13 English transcripts.













Page 14037

1 villages, there were only Muslims. We had wanted a mixed force but

2 Barjaktarevic was not able to negotiate this." Now my question relates to

3 this last part that I'm going to read now. You continued by saying, "We

4 were told by the Serbs that even though we could get along together, the

5 Serbs had to separate from us because there was a threat from the bigger

6 towns such as Banja Luka." What did you mean by this? What was exactly

7 that the Serbs were telling you? What kind of threat were they referring

8 to and you were referring to?

9 A. No. I don't know that Serbs were saying that there was a threat

10 from bigger towns. They simply didn't want to have anything to do with

11 us.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So when the statement here says that you told the

13 interviewer the Serbs had to separate from us because there was a threat

14 from bigger towns such as Banja Luka, did you say those words or didn't

15 you say those words? Because this is what the statement says. Perhaps,

16 Mr. Nicholls, you could show him the -- his statement in B/C/S.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Make sure that the interpretation is getting to him

19 correctly. It's the last sentence of the 7th paragraph from the

20 beginning. The paragraph starts with the words, "In my village, it was

21 Sifet Barjaktarevic of the SDA who went." But I am referring you to the

22 very last sentence of that paragraph. What we have in the English and the

23 statement in the English language is, "We were told by the Serbs that even

24 though we could get along together, the Serbs had to separate from us

25 because there was a threat from the bigger towns such as Banja Luka." Did

Page 14038

1 you or didn't you say those words?

2 A. Yes. I did say this. In fact it was their pretext. They didn't

3 want actually to continue living together with us, which later proved to

4 be the truth.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: What kind of threat are you referring to here, are

6 you describing?

7 A. They would always quote some sort of -- cite some sort of threat,

8 saying that it was only under pressure that they had to go to war, and

9 when I say "they," I mean Serbs from the surrounding villages, when they

10 would get a call-up summons, they said they had to respond and go to the

11 army because there was a threat. That's at least what they said to us.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: But when you say "there was a threat from the bigger

13 towns such as Banja Luka," what do you mean? Who was threatening whom?

14 Do you mean to say that the Serbs themselves felt that they were

15 threatened?

16 A. Yes, precisely.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: By whom?

18 A. They were threatened by their own authorities, allegedly. They

19 had to go to war.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. I don't need that document any

21 further, usher, please.

22 So that brings us to the end of your testimony, and you are free

23 to go back to your country of residence. In fact, you will be assisted by

24 the officers of this Tribunal in any way you require to make this

25 possible. On my part, on my own behalf, and on behalf of Judge Janu and

Page 14039

1 Judge Taya as well as of the Tribunal in general, I should like to thank

2 you for having come over to give evidence in this trial. May we also wish

3 you a safe journey back home. Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Mr. Nicholls, Mr. Trbojevic, we have two

7 options. We can start straight away with the next witness. The curtains

8 are drawn in any case, and we will break in 15 minutes, or we can break

9 now and start after the break. I would suggest that we start straight

10 away with the witness. We get over with the preliminaries and get

11 moving.

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes. I agree. I wanted to suggest.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

14 Yes. Get the next witness, please.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do I take it that you are receiving interpretation

19 of what I am saying in a language that you can understand?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You are about to start to give

22 evidence, giving evidence in this trial, and before you do so, our rules

23 require that you enter a solemn declaration, that in the course of your

24 testimony, you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

25 the truth. It's in other words the equivalent of an oath. The text of

Page 14040

1 the solemn declaration is contained on a piece of paper that the usher,

2 the gentleman who is standing next to you, will be handing to you. Please

3 read that declaration aloud and that will be your undertaking with this

4 Tribunal.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

10 Before we start with the questions, I need to give you some

11 information which will help you put your mind at rest as per your specific

12 requests made to the Prosecutor. I was informed this morning, or rather

13 we were informed this morning, that you had asked for certain protective

14 measures to be put in place, namely that you will not be referred to by

15 your name and surname and secondly that in the course of your testimony,

16 no one would be able to see your face, what we call facial distortion.

17 I'm pleased to inform you that a decision was taken earlier on

18 today, also because there was no opposition on behalf of the Defence team

19 for Mr. Brdjanin, who is the accused in this case, and in fact you are

20 going to be referred to by a pseudonym, you have been given a number.

21 That would be number BT83?


23 JUDGE AGIUS: You're going to be referred to as BT83. And as we

24 go along, you should be able to switch on video mode and you will see how

25 others will be seeing you on their monitor, if they are following the

Page 14041

1 proceedings. If you switch on video mode now, the technicians are showing

2 you exactly how you appear on the screen. Now the procedure that will be

3 followed is that Madam Richterova for the Prosecution will be conducting

4 the examination-in-chief, putting a series of questions to you, which you

5 are to answer as fully and truthfully as possible, and she will then be

6 followed by Mr. Trbojevic, who is the co-counsel defending Mr. Brdjanin.

7 Madam Richterova, he is in your hands.

8 Examined by Ms. Richterova:

9 Q. Good morning, sir. I will show you a piece of paper on which your

10 name is written. Please read the name to yourself and just confirm

11 whether yes or not it is your name.

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 MS. RICHTEROVA: This would be Prosecution Exhibit P1630, under

14 seal.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So that goes under seal.

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we go for a moment into private session?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session for a while,

18 please.

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 14042

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [Open session]

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: I would like to show the witness P1624, which is

23 Bosanski Novi municipality map.

24 Q. Would you look at this map and see if it looks reasonably accurate

25 to you, and if yes, point out the village in which you lived?

Page 14043

1 A. This map is accurate. The village in which I lived, Gornji Agici

2 is here.

3 Q. And we can also see Donji Agici. How far was Donji Agici from the

4 village of Gornji Agici?

5 A. The distance between the two, Gornji Agici and Donji Agici is

6 about five kilometres.

7 Q. What was the ethnic composition of the village of Gornji Agici?

8 A. The ethnic composition of Gornji Agici was such that the majority

9 population was Muslim. The village itself Gornji Agici was 100 per cent

10 Muslim.

11 Q. And Donji Agici?

12 A. In Donji Agici, the majority population was Serb.

13 Q. Were there any religious properties in Gornji Agici?

14 A. There was one mosque.

15 Q. And in Donji Agici, was there a mosque?

16 A. In Donji Agici, there was also one mosque.

17 Q. I'm done for now with the map but you can leave it next to the

18 witness.

19 Correct me if I'm wrong but before the war in Croatia, the

20 relationship between the Serbs and Muslims were generally good?

21 A. Relations between Serbs and Muslims were good in these places.

22 Q. Did the relationship change after the war in Croatia started?

23 A. From the very beginning of the war in Croatia, relations started

24 to deteriorate and as the war continued, the relations became ever-more

25 tense and strained.

Page 14044












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13 English transcripts.













Page 14045

1 Q. Can you tell the Court what were these changes? In which area?

2 A. The greatest changes were felt at the point when Serb soldiers

3 went off to Croatia, to war. Some returned and others went to take their

4 place, and those who returned brought their weapons and uniforms with

5 them, and continued walking about in uniform, carrying weapons, in

6 villages they would go like that into shops, in coffee bars, wherever they

7 would go, they had a weapon with them, a rifle or a pistol. They never

8 left them at home. In that atmosphere, people started to fear for their

9 fate and normal relations were no longer possible. They could no longer

10 socialise and trust each other as they did before.

11 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honours, I think it is the convenient time

12 to have a break.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll have a 25-minute break now. Thank

14 you.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Richterova.


19 Q. Witness, during 1992, was there any time in Gornji Agici or in

20 Bosanski Novi in general where Muslims began to be dismissed from their

21 employment?

22 A. I'm aware of the fact that in early 1992, four drivers at the

23 Kozaraprevoz company who were dismissed and one who worked at the

24 Autoprevoz Dvor. These are all the cases that I'm aware of.

25 Q. Did you ever learn what was the purpose of their dismissals?

Page 14046

1 A. From what I heard, they were dismissed only because they were of

2 Muslim faith or ethnicity.

3 Q. Were there any checkpoints in Gornji Agici or in the area

4 surrounding the village?

5 A. To my knowledge, the checkpoints were established in Cele, at the

6 access road to Gornji Agici, and in the direction of Sanski Most. This is

7 where I moved around. And there was another checkpoint which was set up

8 in Donji Agici, behind the Ravska bridge, in the direction of Bosanski

9 Novi.

10 Q. Who was in charge in -- on these checkpoints?

11 A. The checkpoints were manned by -- I guess I can call them our

12 neighbours. That is Serbs who were wearing military uniforms.

13 Q. And did you pass personally, did you pass any of these

14 checkpoints?

15 A. I personally passed through the Cele checkpoint on several

16 occasions, going towards Budimlic Japra and Sanski Most, because of the

17 shop that I had in Gornji Agici. So that was my usual line of

18 communication.

19 Q. Were you required to show any documents?

20 A. Whatever the shift at the checkpoint, everybody knew me, whenever

21 I passed through the checkpoint, because, as I told you, those were all

22 our neighbours. So I had no problems whatsoever. I was never harassed

23 while going through this checkpoint.

24 Q. When you said that these people were Serbs wearing military

25 uniforms, did you ever learn from them or from other source which unit

Page 14047

1 they belonged to? Which military unit?

2 A. As for the military unit they belonged to, I never heard anything

3 about this from anyone. So I'm not aware of that.

4 Q. Were there any other restrictions of movement, apart of these

5 checkpoints?

6 A. From what I know, there were no restrictions of movement, or any

7 similar measures.

8 Q. During this time period, and I'm talking about the period from the

9 beginning of 1992 until May, 1992, were you personally active in

10 politics?

11 A. During the period you mentioned, I was not active in any political

12 organisation.

13 Q. Were you a member of any political party?

14 A. Yes. I was a member of the SDA, but I was not involved in any

15 particular activity there.

16 Q. Was it the majority party in your village?

17 A. Yes, it was.

18 Q. And who was the President of the SDA in Gornji Agici?

19 A. The President of the SDA in Gornji Agici was Hajro Nakic.

20 Q. And tell the Court if you remember who other senior SDA members

21 were in the municipality of Bosanski Novi as a whole.

22 A. From what I heard, the Bosanski Novi SDA chapter president was

23 Muhamed Adamovic, and the vice-president was Dzafer Kapetanovic, Resad

24 Berberovic was the secretary. I'm not aware of any -- of anyone else.

25 Q. I now want to move on to talk about the topics of the surrender of

Page 14048

1 weapons. When did you first hear about the fact that you were supposed to

2 surrender weapons?

3 A. The handover of weapons in our village took place sometime in

4 early May. That is it was at that time that we heard about statements

5 being made regarding the danger of the situation and people said that if

6 anyone had weapons, that those weapons should be collected and handed over

7 to the Serb side, either to the Territorial Defence or to one of the

8 checkpoints located in our vicinity. As for the legally owned weapons, it

9 was said that those should also be handed over.

10 Q. Tell me, this announcement -- I'm sorry, the fact that you decided

11 to hand over the weapons, was it based on some official announcement or

12 was it a discussion among -- among yourselves?

13 A. From my personal knowledge, there were talks at the very

14 beginning. We discussed the issue amongst ourselves and we agreed that

15 the best solution would be for anyone who possessed weapons illegally,

16 that is without a valid permit, to hand them over before the 11th of May,

17 that is some three or four days before the 11th. Hajro Nakic organised a

18 meeting, whose main topic was the handover of weapons, but, however, the

19 whole thing at the beginning didn't go as smoothly as we thought it

20 would.

21 Q. When you say it -- at the beginning, it didn't go as smoothly as

22 we thought, what are you referring to? What didn't go smoothly?

23 A. Once again, it is my -- just my personal opinion that in those

24 days, people were very much afraid of the soldiers that I already

25 mentioned, soldiers who were constantly on the move, passing through the

Page 14049

1 village and leaving in the direction of Budimlic Japra, Krslje, Bosanski

2 Novi. Where ever they went they had to pass through Gornji Agici. They

3 were armed and people were afraid for themselves and their families, and

4 this is why they hesitated about this -- the handover of illegally owned

5 weapons.

6 Q. You just said that people were hesitant, they hesitated to hand

7 over illegally owned weapons. Tell us, were there legally or illegally

8 owned weapons in your village and what kind of weapons?

9 A. There were both legally and illegally owned weapons in our

10 village. Most of these were pistols, hunting rifles, that were legally

11 owned, and also automatic rifles that had been illegally obtained.

12 Q. To your knowledge --

13 A. In Croatia.

14 Q. To your knowledge, these automatic rifles, how many of them could

15 be in your village?

16 A. I was never aware of the exact number of any weapons in the

17 village. I didn't simply know that fact.

18 Q. Did you own any weapons?

19 A. I owned an automatic rifle.

20 Q. How did you get in possession of this rifle?

21 A. I bought my automatic rifle in Budimlic Japra, from a Serb by the

22 name of Boro Marceta. I knew the man, that is I had known him for five or

23 six years, and we were on very good terms. He owned a small cafe on the

24 road to Sanski Most, at the junction to Budimlic Japra, and since I often

25 used that road, I was often wont to pass by, stop by Boro's. I remember

Page 14050

1 one day when I paid him a visit, I realised how difficult it was, how

2 tense the situation was. The number of soldiers was increasing by the

3 day. They were moving on a daily basis on that road, and he suggested, in

4 a friendly manner, that I bought a rifle or a pistol because I didn't have

5 any weapon at the time. I didn't have the money right away but we agreed

6 that I should come back the next day and bring him the money, and that I

7 could take the rifle with me, which is what I did.

8 Q. Witness, are you aware whether there, at any time, any organised

9 military actions or defence by Muslims took place in Gornji Agici?

10 A. As far as I know, no military action was ever carried out, nor had

11 it been underway or prepared by the Muslims in Gornji Agici.

12 Q. You mentioned that you discussed with Hajro Nakic and among

13 yourselves the possibility to surrender your weapons. Were these weapons

14 ultimately surrendered by people in Gornji Agici?

15 A. That evening, at the meeting which I mentioned, a decision was

16 adopted that all illegally and legally owned weapons should be handed

17 over. However, only some people voluntarily agreed to surrender the

18 weapons, but there were others who simply didn't accept this idea because

19 of the money that it had cost them. However, in most of the cases the

20 weapons were surrendered and handed over at a Serb checkpoint.

21 Q. And can you tell the Court how the weapons were actually turned

22 over?

23 A. The illegally owned weapons were taken by Hajro and two other

24 individuals whom I didn't know to the Krslje checkpoint, and were handed

25 over to the Serbs there. All legally owned weapons were collected by

Page 14051

1 Mustafa Dzafic and Ibrahim Osmanagic, who were both hunters, which is why

2 they acted as representatives in respect of these legally owned weapons,

3 which they collected and handed over to the Donji Agici Territorial

4 Defence.

5 Q. And were there also some negotiations between you Muslims and your

6 Serb neighbours?

7 A. Before we were able to see the soldiers positioned on the hills

8 dominating the village of Agici. For instance in the area of Radosi,

9 there were no negotiations whatsoever. We were simply convinced that --

10 and we believed that the Serbs would not attack us. However, on the 11th

11 of May, 1992, we noticed soldiers in uniform positioned on the hill in the

12 direction of the Radosi village, and the Gavran village as well. They

13 were carrying boxes with ammunition. They had various types of automatic

14 rifles. We were also able to see two cannons. All this could be plainly

15 seen with the naked eye, without any binoculars, because their positions

16 were very close to the village.

17 Q. I will stop you here for a second.

18 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can the witness be shown Exhibit P1683.32? And

19 before he has this photo, the witness could show us on the map where these

20 soldiers were positioned. It's 32. It's a village. So at first, can

21 he --

22 Q. Can you show us at the map the position of the soldiers?

23 A. [indicates] In this area, which is marked as Donji Agici, Krslje,

24 Krupska Rujiska, that is the area between these two villages, this is

25 where the Radosi and Gavran elevation points are located.

Page 14052












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13 English transcripts.













Page 14053

1 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we now show the witness the photo?

2 Q. Can you assist the Judges and tell them what we can see on this

3 picture?

4 A. On this photograph, we can clearly see the position in Gornji

5 Agici.

6 Q. And on this photo, are you able to show the position of the

7 soldiers you saw on 11th of May?

8 A. Yes, I am. This area here is also part of the village, and to the

9 right side of the village, in the direction of Radosi and Gavrani is the

10 area where these soldiers were positioned.

11 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm done with the photo but I would like to still

12 have the map on the ELMO.

13 Q. So when you noticed the arrival of these soldiers, at this stage,

14 did you start some negotiations with your Serb neighbours or even with

15 some Serb officials?

16 A. First of all, after we had seen these soldiers, we started to

17 panic, of course, because at that moment, we realised that all our hopes

18 and expectations that there would in the end be no shooting or attack on

19 Gornji Agici were in vain. We thought -- well, we were trying to figure

20 out what the best solution would be. Of course, we didn't dare go there,

21 to the position where the soldiers were. We didn't dare ask anyone why

22 this was being done. So in the end, I sent over a child, because Hajro

23 Nakic's house was located at the opposite end of the village, and who

24 was -- he was our representative, and he was aware of the situation, and I

25 sent this child to Hajro Nakic's house to fetch him, to call him, so that

Page 14054

1 he can decide what to do, so that he can maybe go and see these soldiers

2 and see if anything can be done to avoid all this. So he went there and

3 he saw for himself what was going on, and he came back and came to my

4 shop, and I was still working regularly in my shop, and he asked me to

5 close the shop and accompany him to Gornji Agici, to see if we can find

6 anyone there, for instance the President of the SDS, Ljuban Vujasin or

7 anyone else who could have any influence whatsoever on these soldiers or

8 their leader, whoever he was, so that the worst could be prevented.

9 Q. Were you successful?

10 A. Of course -- no, we were not. We did manage to reach Gornji Agici

11 and find Gojko from Gornji Agici [as interpreted], Gojko, the Registrar,

12 whom we asked to take us up there to see Ljuban.

13 Q. I'm sorry, I thought that I heard that you said we managed to

14 reach Donji Agici, and in the transcript, it's Gornji Agici. So can you

15 please repeat where did you go?

16 A. From Gornji Agici, we went to Donji Agici. Gornji Agici -- from

17 Gornji Agici, when you go in the direction of Bosanski Novi, you go

18 through Donji Agici. As I said, we came to Ljuban Vujasin's house, and he

19 was president of the SDS party in Donji Agici. Gojko called out to him.

20 He was at home. He worked as a paramedic in Donji Agici. As I said, he

21 was at home at the time, but he wasn't willing to come out of his house.

22 He just talked to us standing at his window, and he told us that Hajro and

23 I could go back, that he wasn't interested in what we were suggesting, and

24 that he had no intention of helping us.

25 Q. What happened that day? What happened on 11 of May, 1992, in your

Page 14055

1 village after you returned from Donji Agici?

2 A. At that time, Gojko didn't accept to go with us to Donji Agici

3 either, and the two of us couldn't do anything alone. So our mission was

4 totally unsuccessful and all our hopes were crushed. In the meantime,

5 people would -- people could see those troops on the hills. They were

6 seized by panic. Nobody knew what to do. Sometime around 3.00 p.m., the

7 first shot was fired in the direction of our village. From that moment

8 on, it got only worse. Shooting intensified and people found cover

9 wherever they could. There was no sign that the troops were coming down

10 to the village through the field. The distance, as the crow flies, was

11 about one kilometre, we were comforting ourselves with the hope that they

12 were only trying to intimidate us and we just sat there and waited in our

13 shelters. However, as the night began to fall, people decided after all

14 to take their belongings and leave Donji Agici.

15 Q. I will stop you for a second here. What were they shooting at?

16 And I'm referring to the soldiers you saw nearby the village of Gornji

17 Agici.

18 A. As we could see and hear, they were shooting at our houses. They

19 shot at anyone they could see, at anyone who was moving, and at the

20 houses.

21 Q. And was there any return of fire from your village?

22 A. Nobody dared even think about it, let alone do it. We knew very

23 well that if we did anything, fire a single bullet, for instance, it would

24 be enough of an excuse for them to kill the entire village.

25 Q. On 11 of May, did the soldiers enter your village?

Page 14056

1 A. As I already said, until the evening, the troops did not move

2 towards the village. As the night began to fall, the residents of our

3 village started fleeing towards Donji Agici, but that night, the troops

4 did not enter the village. About half of the residents managed to get

5 across that night to Donji Agici, and the next morning, I put my two

6 children, wife, mother and sister in a car and took them to a hamlet of

7 Dedici, near Donji Agici, and put them up with a relative. That morning,

8 the shelling of the village began.

9 Q. Witness, were you able, closely observe these soldiers? Were you

10 able to recognise any of them?

11 A. They were not far away, but still I couldn't recognise any of the

12 soldiers.

13 Q. At any stage, did you learn who they were?

14 A. Yes. I found out later, in Prijedor, from the residents of the

15 other half of the village who began fleeing only the second day, after the

16 shelling began, when the troops began to move towards the village. A

17 relative of mine told me then that he recognised two soldiers. They were

18 from Mala Novska Rujiska which is a small village not far from Donji

19 Agici, in the direction of Rudice and Bosanski Novi.

20 Q. You stated before I interrupted you that on 12th of May, the

21 shelling started, and also that the soldiers started moving towards the

22 village. What did you do personally?

23 A. At that moment, I had no hope whatsoever. I realised there was no

24 hope that this would stop or that it could be prevented. So I decided to

25 flee as well to Donji Agici.

Page 14057

1 Q. You went to Donji Agici. Were there other people from your

2 village?

3 A. As I said before, in my estimate, about half of my village was

4 already in Donji Agici at the time. As the shelling began, more and more

5 people were coming in on all sorts of vehicles, cars, tractors, on foot.

6 Some of them had been injured and wounded in the meantime. They were all

7 panic-stricken. We were only praying to God that everyone would manage to

8 find their way to Donji Agici and that we would be able to do something to

9 escape the worst. In the meantime, we again asked this Gojko, the

10 Registrar, since Ljuban Vujasin was refusing all our suggestions, we

11 asked this Gojko to go to Gornji Agici and see what became of the people

12 who remained behind and to see what the situation was. He must have

13 realised the condition of the people who were fleeing, and he agreed. We

14 were waiting for him to return from Gornji Agici, to hear news from him,

15 to see if a solution would be found. However, when he came back, he

16 simply said he wasn't able to help us. He said the best thing for us to

17 do was to go on to Bosanski Novi or Prijedor if we possibly could.

18 Q. You mentioned this person Gojko. Do you remember his surname?

19 A. I think his last name was Ostojic.

20 Q. And was he a Serb or a Muslim?

21 A. He was a Serb.

22 Q. You stated that when he returned, he said that it would be best

23 thing for you to leave. Did you leave and where did you go?

24 A. Yes, I did. After hearing what Gojko had to say, I decided to

25 move on, never mind where, to Bosanski Novi or Prijedor, as long as we

Page 14058

1 didn't stay there, because his opinion was that if we all gathered in

2 Donji Agici, the village would automatically become a target, and it would

3 be too dangerous to stay there. It would be too dangerous because there

4 were soldiers, troops, on the surrounding hills who might possibly decide

5 to move in and commit a massacre. So we filled about ten cars with people

6 and decided to try and make our way with our families to Prijedor.

7 Q. Can you show us at the map the way, the route, which you took to

8 Prijedor?

9 A. We used the road from Donji Agici, Miska Glava, Ljubija, Prijedor.

10 Q. Before you decided to go to Prijedor, did you intend to go a

11 different direction?

12 A. When we were in Donji Agici, we had already been told that we

13 could not go to Bosanski Novi because the bridge was blocked and there was

14 a checkpoint through which Muslims were not being let through, and that

15 was the road that goes from Hozici via Suhaca, Blagaj to Bosanski Novi.

16 That is why we decided to go the other way, to Prijedor.

17 Q. And where did you end up in Prijedor municipality?

18 A. I've already shown you, from Donji Agici we went through Miska

19 Glava and Ljubija and we reached Prijedor.

20 Q. And which part of Prijedor did you stay?

21 A. [redacted].

22 Q. And do you know where the rest of you stayed?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Madam Registrar, this needs to be redacted,

24 please. Yes, go ahead.


Page 14059












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13 English transcripts.













Page 14060

1 Q. Where did the rest of you stay in Prijedor?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for this part,

3 straight away.

4 [Private session]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. So, Witness, you were then,

23 to your surprise, taken to Keraterm?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So go ahead.

Page 14061


2 Q. How long did you stay in Keraterm?

3 A. I stayed in Keraterm until the 18th of June, 2002. On that day, a

4 minivan came in the morning, parked in front of the hall number 2 where I

5 was detained.

6 Q. I really want only to hear from you very briefly, while you were

7 in Keraterm, were you interrogated?

8 A. I was interrogated once in Keraterm.

9 Q. Were you told why you were in Keraterm?

10 A. During the interrogation, they asked me why I was in Prijedor, why

11 I had been in Prijedor. Of course, I told the truth. I said I had been a

12 refugee who had fled from his own village, Gornji Agici.

13 Q. Were you charged with any crime?

14 A. No. They didn't charge me at all.

15 Q. And while in Keraterm, were you personally beaten? And answer

16 just yes or no.

17 A. No.

18 Q. And did you witness that anyone else would be beaten?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. And did you witness that anyone would be killed?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I do not intend to lead any evidence, any further evidence, on

23 Keraterm, because we have already introduced enough evidence.

24 You stated that on 18 of June, a van arrived and you were taken

25 away from Keraterm. Where were you taken?

Page 14062

1 A. From Keraterm, I was transported along with another nine men from

2 my village, and we were told that we were going to be taken to Bosanski

3 Novi because we were residents of the Bosanski Novi municipality. So we

4 were taken to Bosanski Novi via Svodna and Blagaj.

5 Q. And in Bosanski Novi, where were you taken?

6 A. We were taken to the SUP building, the building of the secretariat

7 of the interior in Bosanski Novi. The vehicle stopped outside the

8 building. We were taken out of the vehicle and taken to the basement, to

9 a room without windows. It had a concrete floor and there were two or

10 three small desks with a couple of chairs.

11 Q. How long did you stay in Bosanski Novi SUP building?

12 A. We stayed there for three days. On the third day, we were

13 transferred to the Mlakve stadium where we found other inmates from the

14 Japra valley.

15 Q. Witness, during these three days in Bosanski Novi SUP, were you

16 interrogated?

17 A. I was interrogated once in Bosanski Novi SUP.

18 Q. Were you asked to write a statement?

19 A. After the interrogation, I was told to put in writing what I had

20 said, and I complied.

21 Q. Did you confess that you owned a weapon?

22 A. Yes. I confessed.

23 Q. And by the way, what did you do with this weapon? Did you

24 surrender the weapon?

25 A. I had left my weapon at home. I put it on top of the freezer.

Page 14063

1 Q. Apart from the interrogation, how were you treated?

2 A. I wasn't beaten while at the SUP. There were some verbal abuse

3 during the questioning, when they were trying to convince me to admit to

4 certain things I couldn't admit to because I hadn't done them, but there

5 was no beating, just yelling.

6 Q. During these three days, how many times did you receive food?

7 A. I cannot remember exactly how many times we were given to eat, but

8 I know we didn't get three meals a day. A couple of times they brought us

9 some food that was not very good quality, to put it that way.

10 Q. And you already stated that you were kept in a room without

11 windows, that there were some chairs and desks. Were there any beds or,

12 if not, where did you sleep?

13 A. There were no beds. Some slept on chairs, some on desks, others

14 on the floor. We tried as best we could to get some sleep.

15 Q. And you already stated that after these three days, you were

16 transferred to the Mlakve stadium. Can you very briefly tell us about

17 conditions in Mlakve stadium and very briefly, did you have enough food?

18 A. In my view, the conditions at the Mlakve stadium were much better

19 than those at Keraterm or at the Bosanski Novi SUP, meaning that we were

20 not subjected to too much mistreatment or beating, and at that moment,

21 that was the thing that mattered to us the most. The food was extremely

22 bad. As for sleeping arrangements, 700 of us had to find enough room to

23 sleep under the stands, and there was not enough room. Since the food was

24 as bad as it was, some people fainted, and as for washing, you could have

25 a shower with icy water under the stands. In my opinion, until the 22nd

Page 14064

1 of July, 1992, I was able to bear it somehow at the Mlakve stadium.

2 Q. And what happened on 22nd of July? Were you released from the

3 Mlakve stadium?

4 A. On the 22nd of July, in the morning of that day, a dozen of

5 military policemen arrived at the stadium, carrying some papers in their

6 hands. Up until that moment, the camp was secured by military units, not

7 military policemen. And it was at that time that we were able to see that

8 there would be some sort of change, that there would probably be a roll

9 call, that they would call out names, which is indeed what happened. One

10 of them stood on the side and called out the names of all the detainees,

11 told them to form a single line, and to listen to what he had to say, to

12 what he was going to read. He proceeded by reading out that the next day,

13 on the 23rd of July, a convoy was supposed to leave the territory of the

14 Bosanski Novi municipality, carrying Muslim population, that it had all

15 been organised in advance, and that the majority of the detainees would

16 join this convoy and leave in the direction of Croatia. Then he said that

17 he was going to read out the names of some people and that those people

18 whose names he will read out should go over to the running tarmac and form

19 a single line over there. So he started reading the names from the list,

20 one by one, and he finally read out some 18 names, but out of these 18

21 people, three had already been released from the stadium. I don't know

22 the circumstances of their release. So he ended up with the number of 15

23 of inmates, including myself.

24 Q. And these 15 people, where were they taken from the Mlakve

25 stadium?

Page 14065












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13 English transcripts.













Page 14066

1 A. The 15 of us were told to form a column in pairs, and they tied

2 our hands with handcuffs, and they gave us each an oar. These oars were

3 normally used by the local athletes in Bosanski Novi. At that point, they

4 told us to -- that we were going to the Una Hotel for some additional

5 interrogation. They also said that we would probably have to stay behind

6 this convoy.

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: I want to show the witness map P1623. It is

8 Bosanski Novi town map.

9 Q. Can you show us where were you taken from, what was your route, to

10 Una Hotel, and where the Una Hotel is on this map?

11 A. The Mlakve stadium is located here, in the village of Mlakve, on

12 the outskirts of Bosanski Novi in the direction of Otoka and Krupa. And

13 this is where we left in a column. We passed through the neighbourhood of

14 Vidorija and went along the quay, along the Una River, passed by the

15 secondary school building and reached the Una hotel over there.

16 Q. Only to clarify, this Vidorija it is a suburb of Bosanski Novi

17 town. Who lived in Vidorija? Was it a Serb neighbourhood or was it a

18 Muslim neighbourhood?

19 A. As far as I know, I think that the majority of the population were

20 Muslim.

21 Q. And while we have the map, I will -- we will return to Una Hotel

22 but I only want to ask you where were you taken from Una Hotel? Were you

23 allowed to join the convoy or were you detained at some other place?

24 A. Let me first tell you that on the way to the hotel, we were

25 mistreated on several occasions by those military policemen. Some of us

Page 14067

1 were even beaten on the way to the hotel.

2 Q. Witness, I will ask you all details about Una Hotel. I only want

3 you to tell us now where were you taken from Una Hotel? Were you allowed

4 to join the convoy or were you taken to some other place? Just answer me

5 this question.

6 A. We were taken to the cellar of the hotel, and placed in a small,

7 dark room.

8 Q. From the Hotel Una, how long did you stay? Just tell me how many

9 days you stayed in the Hotel Una?

10 A. We stayed at the Una Hotel for three days.

11 Q. And then?

12 A. And then from the hotel --

13 Q. You were taken where?

14 A. We were taken to the fire department in Bosanski Novi.

15 Q. Because we have this map, can you show us where is Vatrogasni Dom

16 on this map?

17 A. The Bosanski Novi fire department is located here.

18 Q. And do you still remember whether you walked to Vatrogasni Dom the

19 same way as you were taken to Una Hotel or whether you were taken there in

20 a van?

21 A. We went to the fire department on foot, in two or three columns,

22 not altogether.

23 Q. Now, I will return to the Una Hotel and tell us -- and you already

24 mention it, that you were taken -- you were taken inside of the hotel and

25 where were you taken, in which room were you taken?

Page 14068

1 A. As I have already indicated, we were placed in the cellar, in a

2 concrete room, which of course had no windows and therefore no light came

3 in. I think it was about 15 square metres large.

4 Q. Were there some other people in this cellar when you -- when you

5 enter it?

6 A. Since the cellar was dark, there was no light at all, we couldn't

7 see anyone. However, on the basis of the noise and the voices that were

8 coming from the dark, we realised that there were four men in the room.

9 Q. You spent three days in this cellar. Where did you sleep? Were

10 there any beds?

11 A. In the cellar, in the room where we were, there was nothing except

12 for the concrete floor and us, those of us who were there, and we spent

13 days and nights there.

14 Q. Were you able to use toilets?

15 A. We didn't have a toilet there, nor was it possible for us to call

16 anyone, if any one of us needed to go to the toilet, because we were left

17 alone, and for as long as they didn't need anything, we had no one to

18 address ourselves to. So only if they came to see us, to call us out, to

19 beat us, and to force us to admit all kinds of things that were not true,

20 were we able to see them. Otherwise, we didn't see or hear anyone.

21 Q. So if you wanted to use a toilet, how did you solve it?

22 A. Those who needed the toilet did it in the corner, in a corner of

23 the room.

24 Q. Did you receive enough water? Did you receive enough food, during

25 these three days?

Page 14069

1 A. When the convoy arrived, the convoy carrying the Muslim

2 population, when it arrived in Karlovac, terrible mistreatment took place.

3 Q. I will ask you about this but my question was whether you received

4 enough food and enough water. I will -- we will discuss the mistreatment

5 after this.

6 A. Before that time that I just described, we had received only two

7 meals. So we got two meals during a day and a half approximately, and

8 they consisted of some kind of soup or a stew, but when these military

9 policemen burst in and told us that the convoy had arrived in Karlovac,

10 and that the Muslims were declaring over there all kinds of things that

11 were not -- untrue and that they were telling lies and inventing things,

12 such as bad conditions at the stadium, the fact that they were forced to

13 eat grass and so on and so forth, whether this was all true I didn't

14 know. All I know was that it was from that moment on that we were exposed

15 to terrible mistreatment and beatings.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Sir, I hate to butt in like this but I think I need

17 to. Two things: I would like you to restrict your answers strictly to

18 the question that is put to you from time to time, and not to tell us

19 other things that have got nothing to do with the question as such.

20 That's number 1. Number 2, in my opinion, you still haven't answered the

21 question that was put to you. The question referred to those three days

22 in which you were kept in that cellar in the fire station and the question

23 was.

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: Una Hotel.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was during those three days, did you

Page 14070

1 receive enough food and enough water? Because you answered in a way that

2 I personally don't really believe that you were talking about those three

3 days.


5 Q. Witness, you heard the Judge. So please just briefly tell us,

6 during these three days, did you receive any food, what kind of food? Did

7 you receive water?

8 A. As I have already said, we received two meals during those --

9 during that one day and a half, some kind of soup or a stew. We didn't

10 get anything to drink. And then after those two days, after the

11 mistreatment and the beatings started, we got some sandwiches.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And water? Nothing absolutely nothing?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, nothing to drink.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's clear enough now. Thanks.


16 Q. Now, you mentioned this mistreatment. First, I want to know who

17 were the people who mistreated you? Did you recognise any of them? Did

18 you know anyone?

19 A. Those who mistreated us were military policemen from Bosanski

20 Novi. At that time, they were living in the Una Hotel, and one of those

21 who harassed us was a man whom I knew by sight, and I also know his family

22 name, Kreco. He was the one who on the second day, after the arrival of

23 the convoy, brought a Muslim book, the title of which was "Ilmehal" and

24 let me also add that he was not a military policeman serving with this

25 unit. He was wearing an ordinary military uniform. He tore pages from

Page 14071

1 that book, one by one, and he told us that we had to eat it all. The

2 reason, as he said, was he had simply come across this book in a Muslim

3 house and that by eating this book, we would be able to memorise it

4 better.

5 Q. Witness, now I want to ask you, and you mentioned that you were

6 mistreated, now you will explain to us this type of humiliation. Were you

7 also beaten during these three days?

8 A. As I have already stated, we were terribly beaten after the

9 arrival of the convoy. They used all kinds of objects to beat us up, such

10 as baseball bats, plastic, rubber batons, they hit us with their hands,

11 kicked us.

12 Q. And was it done by this military -- members of this military

13 police?

14 A. This was all done by the members of the military police.

15 Q. And we also discussed that after these three days in the Una

16 Hotel, you were taken to Vatrogasni Dom. Were you taken to Vatrogasni Dom

17 by the same military policemen?

18 A. We were taken to the fire department by those same military

19 policemen because they were also transferred at the time we were

20 transferred. They no longer stayed there. They were moved to the fire

21 department. And in my estimate, there were over 40 of them.

22 Q. Do you know who was -- who was commander of this military police?

23 A. The commander of the military police at that time was Bogdan Grab

24 from Josava, whom I had known from before.

25 Q. Witness, in your statement, you used the name Ratko Grab. So what

Page 14072












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13 English transcripts.













Page 14073

1 is the correct name of this person?

2 A. The correct name of this person is Bogdan.

3 Q. So it was just a mistake you made in your statement?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When in Vatrogasni Dom, can you -- can you tell us where were you

6 kept in this Vatrogasni house?

7 A. We arrived at the fire department and were immediately thrown into

8 the cellar, which looked like a garage. It consisted of concrete walls

9 with no windows at all. It was somewhat larger than the cellar we were in

10 at the hotel. It must have been between 25 and 30 square metres large.

11 Q. And how many people were there with you?

12 A. As I have already mentioned, there were 15 of us from the stadium,

13 plus the four men whom we had found at the hotel. So 19 in total at that

14 moment.

15 Q. And were you kept the whole time in this cellar? Did you also

16 sleep in this cellar?

17 A. Yes. We were kept in the cellar the whole time, which means we

18 also slept there.

19 Q. What did you sleep on?

20 A. We slept on wooden pallets, which we found outside the fire

21 department, outside the building at the moment we arrived. But then they

22 said that they were there for us and that we should take them down to the

23 cellar and use them to sleep on or sit on.

24 Q. Did you receive the -- any blankets?

25 A. We didn't get any covers whatsoever.

Page 14074

1 Q. Tell the Judges what sort of food you received while in Vatrogasni

2 Dom.

3 A. In the fire department, we would usually get what was left over by

4 the military policemen. That is, we got the same food that they ate. If

5 anything remained, or was left over, we would get it. Sometimes half a

6 day later or the next day, when they were in good mood, sometimes they

7 would bring the food on time but not very often. Usually, they would

8 leave the food to go bad and would bring it down to us with the excuse

9 that the cooks had poured some vinegar into the food so that we would get

10 better appetite. Those were of course very difficult moments for us. We

11 had stomach problems and of course going to the toilet also became

12 problematic.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We have to stop here for the time being.

14 We'll have a 25-minute break.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Richterova?


19 Q. Witness, before the break, we discussed the food you received and

20 you also stated that there were some stomach problems and going to the

21 toilet also became problematic. Tell us, were there toilets in the room

22 you were kept?

23 A. There was no toilet in that room.

24 Q. If you wanted to use toilet, where did you go?

25 A. If there was no military policeman outside the room, we had to go

Page 14075

1 to the bathroom inside our room.

2 Q. And you just said that --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't quite understand that. If there was no

4 military -- the question was, "If you wanted to use a toilet, where did

5 you go?" And you answered, "If there was no military policeman outside

6 the room, we had to go to the bathroom inside our room." So you used --

7 you had no toilet in your room, nothing? So you used the corner --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I said.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. That's clear now. Thank you.


11 Q. Yes, to make it absolutely clear, it means that you did whatever

12 you -- was necessary in the corner of your -- of your room?

13 A. Right.

14 Q. Did you get maybe some buckets?

15 A. There was nothing there.

16 Q. And if there were a military policeman outside of the room, where

17 were the toilets which you were allowed to use?

18 A. In that case, we could try to ask the policeman for permission to

19 go up to the toilet at the fire department house, where the military

20 policemen were stationed, were quartered. There were two toilet cabins

21 there.

22 Q. And my last question in connection with the usage of the toilets,

23 how long, just tell me how long you stayed in Vatrogasni Dom? Just answer

24 me this question.

25 A. I stayed there until the 31st of August, 1992.

Page 14076

1 Q. So it means you stayed there over one month, and you were using a

2 corner of your room as a temporary toilet. Was this room ever cleaned?

3 A. Every day, a group of us would be ordered to clean the corner

4 where we all relieved ourselves, and to remove the excrement from the

5 room.

6 Q. And now I will ask you about water and be please brief. Did you

7 have enough water to drink?

8 A. We did not have enough water.

9 Q. Did you receive any water?

10 A. Occasionally, we would get fresh water, but it was easiest to get

11 drinking water when we went to clean the rooms upstairs at the fire

12 department house, where the military policemen were quartered. There were

13 details assigned every day for this task and it was the easiest way, the

14 best opportunity, to go to the toilet and to find drinking water.

15 Q. Were you allowed, or was it possible for you to wash yourself?

16 A. We had no facilities for washing or showering. Later on, we would

17 be taken sometimes to the Una River, where we could splash ourselves a

18 little. They took us there so that when they beat us, it would hurt more

19 because of the wet clothes we were wearing.

20 Q. And my last question about this -- in this topic is: Were you

21 able to change your clothes while you were either in Vatrogasni Dom or in

22 Mlakve stadium?

23 A. In the time we spent at the Vatrogasni Dom, we had no opportunity

24 at all to change because we were not allowed any visits, nor did they give

25 us any change of clothes. At the Mlakve stadium, some visits were

Page 14077

1 allowed, depending on who was on guard, depending on the disposition of

2 soldiers who were on shift at the time. They would call out the names of

3 inmates whose family came to visit them, and on those occasions, some

4 people received a change of clothes.

5 Q. Witness, before I move on to talk about your treatment in

6 Vatrogasni Dom, I want to hear from you very briefly your daily routines

7 in Vatrogasni Dom, but please very briefly.

8 A. From day 1, at the Vatrogasni Dom, from the moment we arrived,

9 they showed us the room where we would be kept and the pallets on which we

10 were to sleep. We had to carry the pallets inside. We were taken to the

11 embankment. They called out six of us and took us to the quay near the

12 Vatrogasni Dom, in the direction of the Una River, of Dvor Na Uni. Some

13 50 metres behind the fire department house, we set concrete urns that had

14 been previously used for decorations and for flowers. They were supposed

15 to serve as a barrier blocking the passage of vehicles.

16 Q. Witness, to make it more easier, I will ask you: During the whole

17 stay in Vatrogasni Dom, were you forced to work or, if I rephrase it, did

18 you have to perform work obligation?

19 A. Well, the tasks I described were the beginning of our work

20 obligation at the Vatrogasni Dom. I also mentioned that every day we had

21 to clean the premises of the fire department house and I must say the

22 conditions there were incredible because at all times, out of those 40

23 military policemen, five to ten were drunk and they created a terrible

24 mess, breaking things, and creating a mess that we were supposed to clean

25 up. We had to clean also the area around. Every day they would take us

Page 14078

1 to the wall, to the Una River.

2 Q. We don't need to go into these details. You answered my question

3 that you had to perform this work obligation. Now I want to ask you,

4 during your stay in Vatrogasni Dom, were you generally -- were you beaten?

5 A. Yes, they did. They did beat us.

6 Q. Who did -- who beat you?

7 A. All the time that we spent at Vatrogasni Dom, we were beaten. The

8 main perpetrators of these beatings were military policemen from the fire

9 department house, and in addition to them, there were soldiers who would

10 occasionally be brought in, who had come from various front lines, and who

11 would go about town creating unrest and such soldiers would be brought to

12 our quarters drunken to beat us and mistreat us during the night until the

13 next day.

14 Q. Witness, did you recognise or -- did you recognise any of these

15 soldiers of -- or military policemen who beat you? And can you name some

16 of them?

17 A. During the first days, as I said, I recognised the commander of

18 the military police, Bogdan Grab, as well as his brother, who was a

19 regular military policeman. I also knew a man named Mihaljica from Krslje

20 who used to be a neighbour of mine. I also recognised a couple of

21 military policemen whose names I knew, and who were particularly

22 heavy-handed towards the prisoners.

23 Q. Can you give us just a couple of names of people who maltreated

24 you?

25 A. Dragan Djuric, Zeljko Bosancic, Miljenko Janjatovic.

Page 14079

1 Q. Thank you. Now I would go back to the beatings. You said that

2 these military policemen beat you and some other soldiers. Can you

3 briefly describe how -- how they beat you? What kind of tools they used

4 when they beat you?

5 A. I can say straight away that they were not particularly choosey

6 when it came to things to beat us with. They used whatever was at hand.

7 In the beginning, it was mainly baseball bats, plastic or rubber

8 truncheons, and very often, if they had nothing else, they would take a

9 wooden stick and beat us with it. It made them very happy and proud when

10 they could simply beat us all over, using their bare hands or feet.

11 Q. I presume that your answer will be yes, but were you personally

12 beaten?

13 A. Yes, I was beaten.

14 Q. And can you tell the Judges whether you sustained any injuries?

15 A. Many times I was injured on my head, on my ribs, hands, wrists,

16 shoulders, back.

17 Q. While -- what kind of injuries? You just said that many times I

18 was injured on my head, my ribs. Can you just briefly describe what kind

19 of injuries you are talking about?

20 A. These injuries were around my eyes, in the back of my head, on my

21 shoulders, injuries to my ribs, which were not visible but I knew what

22 they meant.

23 Q. During the time in Vatrogasni Dom, was anyone killed?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you see any -- any killing personally?

Page 14080












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Page 14081

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you assist the Judges and tell them what you saw?

3 A. The event that I witnessed specifically was the killing of Ismet

4 Muslimovic.

5 Q. How was he killed?

6 A. That day, when he was killed, was one of the worst days I had

7 spent at the Vatrogasni Dom camp. From the early morning, they started

8 taking people out of our quarters and taking them away behind the

9 Vatrogasni Dom to beat them black and blue. The pretext they used was a

10 defeat they suffered on the front line in Krajina somewhere. He -- they

11 kept beating people up the whole day, and sometime around 5.00 in the

12 afternoon, they took out Ismet and brought him outside the room. He could

13 barely walk, and a policeman had to help him come outside. After the

14 first question, which was why he had been in Prijedor at all, he opened

15 his mouth to answer, when Dragan Djuric hit him with his open palm in

16 his -- on his already-injured head. Ismet fainted immediately. Djuric

17 ordered two inmates to run somewhere and bring a pot of water and splash

18 it on him so that he would come around. They brought the water and

19 splashed it -- splashed it on him but it didn't help. He began to regain

20 consciousness but he couldn't get up. Then Djuric ordered other inmates

21 to take a bucket that was standing next to the door, in which we washed

22 the plates we had lunch from, so the water in that bucket was dirty and

23 greasy, and that water again was splashed on Ismet.

24 Five or six minutes later, Ismet tried to get on his feet and

25 managed. Then this same Dragan Djuric said, "Do you know perhaps where

Page 14082

1 the house of a neighbour of mine from Vidorija is?" We could barely hear

2 Ismet's voice when he tried to answer. He was at the end of his tether.

3 He said that he knew but he couldn't go and show them. Djuric said that

4 two military policemen would come along with him and that he should go

5 with them and show them the place where this man lived. Two military

6 policemen flanked Ismet, picked him up, slightly, and they walked away

7 from the Vatrogasni Dom until they reached a distance at which we were no

8 longer able to see them. [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 We are trying to do our best to protect you, not to reveal your

20 identity, and then you mention your own name. So be careful. Okay? In

21 any case, don't worry about it because we are striking it off.


23 Q. So we finished the two men were called out to help with this man

24 Muslimovic. What did you see?

25 A. We got out, me and this friend of mine, and we saw Ismet lying on

Page 14083

1 this wheelbarrow. In the meantime, Dragan Djuric, who was a van driver

2 with the military police, came with the van and he backed to the area

3 behind the fire department, just outside the room where we were located,

4 and he told us to put Ismet into the van.

5 Q. At this moment, you saw Ismet Muslimovic, were you able to see

6 what kind, if any, injuries Ismet sustained?

7 A. I was about to tell you that. As we were trying to put him into

8 the van, and Ismet was about 1.90 metres tall and at the time he was

9 arrested he weighed about 110 kilos, but got down to 90, 95, in the

10 meantime, we were not able to do it on our own and then Djuric ordered for

11 another man to join us. They fetched a man by the name of Ante, who was

12 from Prijedor by origin, and then the three of us took Ismet out of the

13 wheelbarrow and put him into the van. As we were trying to put him into

14 the van, we realised that his entire body had been fractured and broken

15 and it was easy to see that he was already dead. All his teeth were gone,

16 his neck was dislocated, the elbows were totally limp and it was in this

17 state that we threw him into the kombi, into the van.

18 One of these two military policemen, told one of us to get into

19 the van and come with them. Ibrahimagic got into the van and since Dragan

20 Djuric knew him, they used to work together at the Kozaraprevoz transport

21 company before the war, they were both truck drivers, he said that

22 Ibrahimagic should get out and that Ante should go instead. Which is what

23 happened. Ante got into the van which drove away and Ante never came

24 back.

25 Q. You just said that Ante never came back. Were there other

Page 14084

1 occasions when people were taken away and never returned? And just answer

2 me yes or no.

3 A. Yes. There were many such occasions.

4 Q. Can you name at least few people you remember were taken away and

5 never seen again?

6 A. Yes, I can.

7 Q. Can you give us the name? The names?

8 A. Salko Vukovic [as interpreted], for instance, who was a teacher,

9 worked as a teacher in Donji Agici.

10 Q. I'm sorry, did you say Salko Vukovic?

11 A. Mukovic.

12 Q. Thank you for the correction. Please go on.

13 A. Razim Veletanlic, also a teacher in Donji Agici. Resad

14 Kapetanovic, whom I already mentioned. He was a vice-president of the

15 Bosanski Novi SDA chapter.

16 Q. In your statement, you used the name Dzafer Kapetanovic and now

17 you say Resad Kapetanovic. So what is the correct name of this person?

18 A. My apologies. The correct name of the person is Dzafer

19 Kapetanovic.

20 Q. And so I interrupted you. So what was the other person you saw?

21 A. Resad Berberovic, the secretary of the Bosanski Novi SDA branch.

22 Abdulah Huzeirovic from Blagaj. Hasan Isakovic from Suhaca. Fadil

23 Blagajcevic from Blagaj.

24 Q. These people you just listed, were they beaten before they were

25 taken away?

Page 14085

1 A. Yes, they were.

2 Q. Did you see in which condition they were before they were taken

3 away?

4 A. Those who were taken away and who never returned were in such a

5 bad condition that, in my opinion, they could not survive for longer than

6 a day or two. So they didn't have to be killed. They were just -- they

7 would have died -- they would have died any way. They were left to die.

8 Q. You mentioned in your statement that on one occasion, a person

9 returned after being taken away. Can you please explain this occasion?

10 A. Obviously those who were taken away were taken away by night.

11 That night, when this happened, they first took away two men at around

12 10.00 p.m., neither of whom returned. This is just an approximation as to

13 the time because we didn't have our watches on, but it was summertime so

14 it was relatively easy to orient ourselves. That night, eight of us

15 remained in the room.

16 Q. Witness, I have to interrupt you because we are running out of

17 time and so I would really like to hear only who returned and what did you

18 hear from this person after he returned?

19 A. That night, sometime before morning, they took away Hajro and

20 Hasan Isakovic. Hajro is the son of Hasan. An hour and a half later,

21 approximately, Hajro Isakovic was taken back. He returned, which was the

22 first such case since they started taking people away. As he entered the

23 room, he had -- he was blindfolded and one of the military policemen just

24 threw him, pushed him into the room. We whispered asking what had

25 happened, and how it came about that he returned. He was still in a lot

Page 14086

1 of fear, and he managed to tell us that his father had been murdered near

2 the river. Apparently they were asking some money from him, and he said

3 he didn't have any. Hajro was blindfolded and he heard a shot at that

4 moment, which was soon followed by the sound of a body falling into the

5 water. As for Hajro, he was taken back to the fire department in this

6 van. My assumption is that they wanted -- they tried to obtain some

7 information from him regarding this money, because two sons of Hasan

8 Isakovic had already been killed.

9 Q. Do you know the names of these two brothers?

10 A. Nijaz Isakovic, he was the oldest son of Hasan.

11 Q. If I can remind you --

12 A. I'm really sorry that the name of the other escapes me at the

13 moment.

14 Q. If I may use the witness statement, is the name of the other

15 brother Karanfil?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And it brings us towards the end. You already stated that after

18 this ordeal, were you released on the 30th of August, 1992. After you

19 were released, and now, really briefly, where did you go? Did you leave

20 the municipality?

21 A. After I was released, I asked if it was possible for me to go back

22 to Prijedor and stay there with my relatives, with whom I had stayed

23 before I was taken to the Keraterm camp, and they said that if I didn't

24 have anyone in Bosanski Novi, any relative living there, or if I didn't

25 know where to go, that I could for the time being, that is that if I

Page 14087

1 didn't have a place to live for a while, that I could go to Prijedor.

2 Q. And is it correct that after sometime in Prijedor, you finally

3 left for Croatia?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And before you -- before you left, did you have to sign any

6 papers?

7 A. No. I didn't have to sign any documents.

8 Q. And to your knowledge, your parents or your family, who left

9 before, did they have to sign any papers?

10 A. Later, when we were reunited, I learned that they had to meet the

11 requests of the Serb authorities, that is that they had to pay some kind

12 of bills and settle all their accounts, and leave their property behind.

13 Q. And my very last question is: Did you at any time learn the fate

14 of the mosques in your village, Gornji Agici, and in the village of Donji

15 Agici?

16 A. Yes, I did. I learned that the mosques had been destroyed, the

17 mosques in Gornji and Donji Agici, as was the case with all the mosques in

18 the Japra river valley.

19 Q. And did you also learn when was it -- and I mean whether it was in

20 1992 or at some later stage?

21 A. According to my knowledge, and from what I heard from others, this

22 happened in 1992.

23 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Witness. I do not have further

24 questions for this witness.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Richterova. That brings us to

Page 14088












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Page 14089

1 the end for today. We will continue tomorrow morning, sir, and when

2 Mr. Trbojevic is expected to start with his cross-examination. So that we

3 can plan a little bit ahead, Mr. Trbojevic, how long do you expect your

4 cross to last, please?

5 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] For about 45 minutes, Your

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So then you will have the other witness

8 7.66 in line?

9 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, he will be ready.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And you should anticipate how long that's

11 going to take. Whether it will probably be the whole morning.

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: Most probably the whole session.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. After that, we will have 7.73?

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, you're right.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: 7.88?

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, all the witnesses who are scheduled on this

17 list.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Do you anticipate -- what's

19 7.263? I don't have that witness in the Bosanski Novi list particularly.

20 MS. RICHTEROVA: No. She is not from Bosanski Novi. She is a

21 witness from the Prijedor municipality and she testified in the Stakic

22 case.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. That makes it clear. Okay.

24 Thanks. See you tomorrow morning. Thank you. Make sure that the

25 curtains are drawn before the witness leaves the courtroom.

Page 14090

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

2 1.48 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

3 the 4th day of February, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.