1 Wednesday, 12 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Good morning, Your Honours. This is case

8 number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you. Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you.

10 Can you hear me in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I can

12 hear you.

13 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we don't hear Mr. Brdjanin.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, yes, I

15 can hear you. Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You're hearing now, I suppose, Mr. Brdjanin because

17 --

18 THE INTERPRETER: It's the interpreter who didn't hear

19 Mr. Brdjanin.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's no longer a problem. Thank you, Mr.

21 Brdjanin. Good morning to you.

22 Appearances for the Prosecution?

23 MS. KORNER: It's going to be one of those days, Your Honour. I

24 was pressing the wrong button. Joanna Korner, Timothy Resch together with

25 Denise Gustin, case manager. Good morning, Your Honours.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you three. Appearances for Radoslav

2 Brdjanin?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman,

4 together with Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to the three of you. Let's start,

6 assuming that there are no preliminaries. Usher, could you please bring

7 the witness in, thank you. Do you think you'll finish with the witness

8 today Ms. Korner?

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I do. With always the caveat that I'm

10 so often wrong when it comes to the documents, but I do think I will.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you, Ms. Korner.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good morning to you, Mr. Kirudja.

14 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you kindly make the solemn declaration once

16 more, please?

17 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

18 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 WITNESS: CHARLES KIRUDJA [Resumed]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. Thank you.

21 Ms. Korner will be proceeding with her in chief. Yes, Ms. Korner.

22 Examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

23 Q. Mr. Kirudja, good morning.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. Before we carry on looking at your reports, there is one question

1 I want to ask you in respect to the refugees. Apart from the Muslim

2 refugees that we have been looking at, were there also Serb refugees that

3 you were having to deal with, who were coming from the parts of Croatia?

4 A. This was a point that is a little salient, difficult to see.

5 There were indeed refugees crossing or displaced persons crossing the

6 Bosnian border into the sector where the UN was deployed but when it came

7 to Serbs, this was never really an issue because the Serbs would tell us

8 ex post facto that we have refugees here, you didn't even know it or you

9 didn't raise the international awareness that you do with non-Serbs, but

10 what happened was that they took care of it themselves, that -- without

11 the usual distress that is accompanied by refugees who were non-Serbs

12 crossing that border into hostile reception from the opposite side. With

13 the Serbs, there was no hostility when they crossed the border and because

14 there were a number of empty houses so to speak, there would be quietly

15 accommodated without us knowing exactly who is where. That's the -- why

16 the issue looks deceptively silent. That's how this point has been raised

17 elsewhere, why were we not so occupied with the Serbs? Not so. That's

18 because of the way it was happening.

19 Q. So to summarise that, the Serbs who were coming into your area

20 were being housed by other Serbs and were not facing, as you put it, a

21 hostile reception?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. And indeed, as I understand your evidence, quite often they would

24 be taken in without your even being aware of the fact that there were

25 refugees?

1 A. Correct, correct.

2 Q. Thank you. All right could you now have a look, please, at a

3 whole bundle? It's P1669, because it's a whole collection of reports that

4 you forwarded to your superiors, I think. Dated the 29th of June.

5 We see on the top there, your covering letter. It's actually,

6 subject, Mr. Suad -- is that Adilovic?

7 A. It's somebody else's handwriting. I would have to look at the

8 printed --

9 Q. Okay, don't worry then. And then you say, "Please find the blank

10 page memo and annexes, I think it's one page memo and annexes total 18

11 pages on the above-mentioned subject."

12 Now, if we look at the typed copy which is the memorandum, dated

13 the 29th of June, subject, Mr. Suad Adilovic's letter?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. I refer to your message of the 26th of June, the story of Bosanski

16 Novi and other flash points on the Bosnia-Herzegovina border is a

17 heartbreaking tale of violence and unconfirmed atrocities in the making.

18 We have made a series of reports on this subject and enclose the following

19 which may give you a sense of our frustration with the situation. And

20 signed by you and the reports are listed. Addressed to Mr. Mick

21 Magnusson, UNPROFOR Zagreb. Mr. Magnusson being whom?

22 A. He was an assistant directly in the office next to Mr. Cedric

23 Thornberry and Mr. Cedric Thornberry had tasked him to pursue the matter

24 with me.

25 Q. Can we look, please, at the next document which is the 22nd of

1 June of 1992. Group of people held at football stadium, Bosanski Novi,

2 DanCon informs civil affairs of a fresh group of about 15 persons

3 apparently being held in the football stadium and being guarded by people

4 in camouflage uniforms. The people waved white flags and flashed SOS

5 signals to passing DanCon patrol. Then please find attached a letter

6 addressed to the mayor of Bosanski Novi by the UNHCR representative here

7 in Topusko. This letter particularly the 5th paragraph is designed to

8 reinforce a message that has repeatedly been orally conveyed to him and to

9 his colleagues in Dvor, best regards.

10 Now can we deal with the first paragraph? This is the Danish -- I

11 don't know what Con stands for, the Danish contingent, that's it,

12 reporting to you or to your office that there are more people in the

13 Bosanski Novi football stadium. This business of SOS signals, what

14 exactly was happening there?

15 A. First, to understand it a little bit of the relationship between

16 that football field and where the Danish contingent was. It's a direct

17 line of vision relationship. Their contingent, the Danish contingent

18 located in Dvor, from their observation tower, you can see directly across

19 the river into the football field in the direction of Bosanski Novi, and

20 that of course the reverse is true, if you're on the other side, you can

21 see the Danish observation point. Since this, as you noted in the earlier

22 memorandum you read, introducing this package, that we speak about talking

23 about this matter in previous report, and this is related to the

24 paragraph, this fresh number of people coming in here. There was a

25 constant flow of people into that football field. Military observers in

1 Dvor, with their binoculars could see what was going on there and on this

2 occasion, there was a formation of SOS from those people in that football

3 field and you can see, and you can draw the conclusion they intended to be

4 seen. The people making that SOS intended that they be seen across.

5 Q. So you said the formation of SOS. You mean they were standing so

6 that the letters SOS could be seen?

7 A. What the report said from the military observers themselves is

8 that we read a formation, how the military exactly read it, I couldn't

9 tell you exactly but they say we can see, we the soldiers, that formation

10 made up of human beings and flags spells SOS.

11 Q. I think just for a moment, can we have back the map, the big map

12 that we produced? I've forgotten -- it's the coloured one, I've forgotten

13 the exhibit number, P1645. Just so we can remind ourselves of where Dvor

14 and Bosanski Novi were. I think we can see fairly clearly, well Bosanski

15 Novi is marked heavily, it's just over the border and over the river, and

16 then Dvor is just there?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Yes, thank you very much. Usher, you can take

19 that away now.

20 If we go on please, then, to the next document, which is the

21 letter you referred to, a letter to the mayor of Bosanski Novi, and

22 which -- just check that. Yes. Thank you. It's there. You've just

23 gone --

24 A. It's not that one. That's not a letter to the mayor.

25 Q. Okay. Usher can you give it to me?

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you put it on the ELMO, usher, please, one

2 moment, are we safe with -- Ms. Korner?

3 MS. KORNER: The first page can go on the ELMO.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: The first page, okay, I mean I have no problems with

5 that but the second page may be problematic because of the person who

6 signed it.

7 MS. KORNER: I don't know what --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, if we look at the second paragraph of

10 the first page, one might have some concern also. I don't know. It's up

11 to Ms. Korner of course.

12 MS. KORNER: No, there is no concern.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: No, there I wouldn't think so but I thank you for

14 pointing at that, Mr. Ackerman, but I wouldn't think so either. But the

15 second page, yes, but I leave it in the hands of Ms. Korner.

16 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much Your Honour, I was aware of that

17 but the first page is all right.

18 Q. This is addressed to the mayor of Bosanski Novi, Mr. Pasic?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And dated the 20th of June, from UNHCR, and you were obviously

21 provided with a copy. Dear Mr. Pasic, I would like to thank you for your

22 visit together with Mr. Rade to Topusko on the 28th of May, 1992, meeting

23 with civil affairs coordinator Mr. Charles Kirudja and myself. I wish to

24 assure you that since the meeting we have tried to follow the situation

25 closely and have strong concerns for the welfare of the large number of

1 Muslims in your community. On June the 13th, 1992, the special envoy of

2 the high commissioner for refugees, Mr. J.M. Mendiluce sent a

3 representative, Mr. Concolato and myself to the area. And on the

4 13th -- on June the 13th, 1992, we had an opportunity to review the

5 situation with Mayor Borojevic in Dvor. Unfortunately, it was not

6 possible for us to come across to meet with you and see the situation. As

7 you will recall at our meeting, you named Mr. Barjaktarevic and Mr.

8 Hamzagigic as spokespersons for the group and understood to arrange a

9 meeting to talk with them. By this letter, I would like to inquire into

10 what arrangements you have made for the meeting. If possible, we would

11 also be interested in meeting with Mr. Izet Muhamedagic and a

12 representative from local Red Cross/crescent or Merhamet. I would

13 appreciate if you could contact the two individuals on our behalf and

14 request them to suggest a meeting date. We suggest the venue of the

15 meeting be Dvor. I would also like to stress the importance that UNHCR as

16 an international humanitarian organisation places on the protection of

17 these people in their home region so that their fundamental human rights

18 are respected and to avoid the creation of a new flow of refugees. I am

19 sure you realise your responsibility as the head of local government in

20 that respect.

21 With respect to the proposed mass transfer of population, I am

22 sure that I do not need to remind you that since the Second World War, the

23 forced, mass transfer of population on purely ethnic or racial basis has

24 been declared a crime against humanity in international law. You are

25 probably also aware that on November the 26th to the 27th, 1991, the

1 parties to the conflict in the former Yugoslavia agreed at a conference

2 convened at the initiative of the International Committee of the Red Cross

3 to apply the provisions of international humanitarian law in the present

4 conflict. I trust that you will agree with me on the importance of your

5 responsibility in seeing to it that these international obligations are

6 respected within your jurisdiction. Please allow me to include with this

7 letter a copy of a folder on the work of UNHCR. At our meeting we also

8 discussed the possibilities for international assistance for displaced

9 persons in your municipality and I therefore also enclose a questionnaire

10 to assess the needs for assistance regarding displaced persons in your

11 municipality. And I look forward to hearing from you.

12 Now, this letter, did you see it before it was written or -- I

13 mean in other words, did you discuss it with the gentleman from UNHCR

14 before it was written or were you just supplied with a copy afterwards?

15 A. As the letter itself refers to in the very first paragraph, it

16 refers to my -- to the meetings with me. Recall the earlier letter that

17 this letter was intended to place beyond doubt with regard to the

18 representatives of Bosanski Novi that sought a meeting with me about our

19 position on the matter. So this letter was drafted at my request and my

20 participation with the UNHCR gentlemen to make sure that it comes out

21 clear. I didn't feel that my responsibility as the head civilian head of

22 the mission, this matter technically was really not under my

23 responsibility as a peacekeeping matter. Since the issue we are raising

24 fell squarely under the international obligations of which UNHCR is a

25 custodian. So we agreed, and that it will be drafted together but the

1 signed -- signatory of that letter would probably be the UNHCR person.

2 Q. The paragraph in respect of the mass transfer being a breach or

3 crime against humanity, was that something with which you agreed?

4 A. Again, going back to the responsibility, I had them research that

5 and have them phrase it the way UNHCR would -- will be consistent with

6 what they knew about the UNHCR and ICRC so I let them research that

7 paragraph.

8 Q. And again, you said they did the research. Whether or not it's --

9 you're right, it is a legal matter but?

10 A. Right.

11 Q. But as far as you were concerned, was this --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour this is a matter for the Court, not a

14 matter for this witness. It's up to you to decide whether that's a

15 violation.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You are partly right but not completely.

17 MS. KORNER: I'm going to rephrase the question, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. You're partly right, but not

19 completely. In fact, I was going to invite you to put the question in some

20 different manner because you were not getting there any way.

21 MS. KORNER: In fact I appreciated the point Mr. Ackerman has just

22 made which is why I changed the question.

23 Q. As far as you were concerned, from what you had seen and the

24 conversations you had had, was this, as it is stated, a mass transfer of

25 population on ethnic grounds? Leave aside whether it's a crime or not.

1 A. That's precisely the point I wanted clear because yesterday I made

2 allusion to despite repeated oral explanation that this is not a -- the

3 right thing for you to do, I mentioned yesterday that having heard me,

4 they wanted me to tell them who my boss was so they can take up this

5 matter higher. So I wanted this made clear to them that this is a mass

6 transfer, 5.000 is no small number of people, and it isn't right.

7 Q. And you and the gentleman who wrote the letter consulted over it.

8 The purpose of saying this in the letter was what?

9 A. The purpose was to make sure that he understood that this will not

10 go well with the international community.

11 Q. Right. Yes, thank you. If we move to the next document that's in

12 the bundle that you sent, this I think we see next the original message

13 that came from DanBat, the Danish Battalion. I really think we must try

14 and -- dated the 20th of June, directed for your attention, subject

15 refugees, 1, at whatever I think this must be on the 20th at 1020?

16 A. No it's time.

17 Q. Time.

18 A. At 2000 hours.

19 Q. 2000 hours, contacted nine refugees in Dubica?

20 A. B company in Dubica.

21 Q. In Dubica, they are of something Serbian-Croatian?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mixed.

23 MS. KORNER: Mixed, thank you very much, Your Honour.

24 Q. Origin and want either UN protection or help to get through to

25 Zagreb. Then there is a problem about the kidney patients in Dvor having

1 difficulty in getting their medicine, previously this has been transported

2 by air from Belgrade to Banja Luka and Dvor claims that the -- this air

3 space is now controlled by Croatian forces, DanBat doubts this, and then a

4 further time, and this is the message you referred to, scouts from E

5 company observed 15 people being gathered at the stadium in Bosanski Novi,

6 the 15 people were guarded by people in camouflage uniforms and people

7 surrounding the stadium waved white flags and flashed SOS in order to

8 attract the attention of the DanBat scouts. DanBat has informed, I think

9 this is, the city of Dvor that this matter will be reported and that

10 DanBat is concerned for the fate of the people in the stadium.

11 Then the next document should be, and perhaps the usher could give

12 it to me, just find it --

13 A. Covering page.

14 Q. Yeah.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour I think, Mr. Resch kindly suggests it's

16 easier if his copy goes because the copy for the exhibit has been copied

17 on both sides which makes it more difficult to find.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay with me, Ms. Korner. The only thing is

19 second page again, the very end is the name of the person to whom --

20 MS. KORNER: Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the ICRC person that I'm concerned about.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's -- no the -- I think the only

23 concern we need have is for the people working for UNHCR.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

25 MS. KORNER:

1 Q. Now, this, Mr. Kirudja, was written by Mr. Raffone, I think,

2 again, but released on your authority; is that correct, it's a letter of

3 the 20th of June?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Addressed -- well, we'll see it was in fact addressed to the ICRC

6 in Zagreb but copied to UNHCR and to the civil affairs headquarters in

7 Zagreb. This letter describes a meeting in Velika Kladusa with the

8 representative of the 850 displaced persons from Sanski Most. I think

9 this is the first reference we've seen to Sanski Most. Was this the first

10 time that you had any dealings with problems in Sanski Most?

11 A. It's not the first time we get a hint on that. This is the first

12 time the people themselves are -- if you recall the previous meeting of

13 27th May, when Mr. Pasic came to my office, we already had been

14 telegraphed the problems in Sanski Most, Prijedor and other places.

15 Q. Right. The secretary of the Red Cross of Velika Kladusa,

16 Mr. Muhamedagic, convened a meeting with the representative of the 850

17 displaced persons arrived from Sanski Most on the 12th of June, and the

18 meeting took place on the 19th of June, 1992, at the local Red Cross

19 headquarters. The civil affairs officer from Sector North and the chief

20 of the station of UN CIVPOL of Slunj were invited to attend -- assist.

21 The representative of the group of displaced persons from Sanski Most

22 asked to keep his name anonymous. The report which follows is solely

23 based on his statements. The witness of this forced evacuation was kept

24 arrested in the sports hall of Sanski Most during 16 days, together with

25 his son. Persons between 16 and 60 years were kept in this place. He

1 declared that every day the persons kept in this place counted themselves

2 to be sure that no one was missing. He counted some 250 persons missing

3 since he arrived. They were asked to go out, he said, and never came

4 back. The guards to this place were under the direction of a man who is

5 the commander of the Serbian crisis committee of Banja Luka, Mr.

6 Davidovic. In those days, the local radio reported that 230 extremist

7 Green Berets were imprisoned in the concentration camp in Banja Luka. He

8 added. The camp is called Manjaca and is some 30 kilometres out of Banja

9 Luka. In this camp there are only dangerous war prisoners, [in inverted

10 commas, extremists], some doctors and members of the SDA, he explained.

11 Pausing for a moment, Mr. Kirudja, had you heard of Manjaca before

12 this occasion?

13 A. No, this is the beginning of the shape of information that later

14 became subject of a very controversial memo that we put out. This is the

15 beginning of our getting to see in detail and it became even more so as we

16 interviewed all of these people one by one.

17 Q. On the 11th of June, 1992, some 1.000 persons arrived in the

18 sports hall. The same day, the authorities [Mr. Davidovic guards]

19 organised ten buses and under the threat of heavy guns forced some of the

20 people who were kept into the sports hall to go into the buses. He

21 counted some 800 persons. The buses travelled up to Bosanska Krupa. In

22 this place, again under the threat of heavy guns, all the persons were

23 forced to get out of the buses and stand in line. All of us had to pass a

24 bridge walking between the mines. On the other side, there were Green

25 Berets and some local authorities waiting for us. Some transportation was

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1 arranged for us. On the 12th of June, the group arrived in Velika

2 Kladusa. The local Red Cross helped the group and the Red Cross counted

3 850 persons, women, children and men above 60 years. All of them are

4 Muslims. The man explained that all the group is presently hosted in

5 local families but there is no food for them because there is not even --

6 there is not food even for the local population. The representative of

7 the 850 persons from Sanski Most said that all of them would very much

8 like to have the possibility to go back to their houses. Alternatively,

9 he asked about the possibility of being evacuated from Velika Kladusa to

10 Croatia. He explained that a good number of them owned houses in Croatia

11 or have relatives there.

12 And the secretary of the Red Cross said that unconfirmed news

13 announced some three -- some new 3.000 displaced persons to arrive in

14 Velika Kladusa from Bihac.

15 By this stage, how were you and your fellow relief organisations

16 regarding this flow of refugees that appeared to be arriving?

17 A. I forgot to mention there was still another concern in trying to

18 get this information as in dire terms that appear here. Earlier

19 yesterday, I also mentioned that UNHCR and ICRC had taken a decision in

20 their headquarters to pull out completely out of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

21 following the killings of one of the ICRC delegations earlier, around

22 May. You may recall that point that I made earlier.

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. And at this moment, as you can see, I am addressing ICRC in this

25 memo, that -- and especially a gentleman by the name shown there [as

1 said]. I had met him a couple of times and we had begun to make head way

2 in understanding that ICRC had to return into this area. We wanted them

3 to make a reversal of their decision to pull out, as well as UNHCR. So

4 there again in recognition of the fact that this is a matter far beyond

5 UNPROFOR mission but it is coming inside. Velika Kladusa is on the

6 border. It's not very far. It's about 20 minutes drive from Topusko so

7 we knew this was going to be a major problem for us if we don't get other

8 UN agencies involved in this matter.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, page 15, line 21, I think he said a

11 name but has come out with the word "shown there," instead of that name,

12 either that are I misunderstood.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no he did mention a name and it was, to me it

14 sounded something like that. 15?

15 MR. ACKERMAN: 21, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Line 21.

17 MS. KORNER:

18 Q. Yes, just tell us the name, Mr. Kirudja, again, who you were

19 trying to address, Mr. Schomburg or something like that?

20 A. Who I was what?

21 Q. You said you were trying to get the attention of Mr. --

22 A. No, no, in this memo that it in front there is Philippe Noel, you

23 can see the Philippe Noel, whom I had met a couple of times on the ground

24 and he had shown us a good understanding and we were working with him,

25 together the ICRC to understand the extent of what was going on.

1 Q. All right. I think the rest of the correspondence which you

2 attached we have already been through because it goes back to the

3 beginning of June. The purpose of sending all of this correspondence to

4 headquarters was what?

5 A. First, I mentioned also yesterday, I had great difficulties with

6 my headquarters, understanding or even accepting that what we were doing

7 was not beyond the mandate or we were crossing the other border so first

8 we had to make sure that this was a daily occurrence, this is a situation

9 that we could not look the other way. These people coming from this areas

10 that we mentioned, the only place of refuge they could find was where the

11 UN flag was, and we were sitting below that UN flag. And secondly, being

12 known Muslims, the Bosnian enclave of Bihac, first also was a less hostile

13 area for them to gather first when they want to find refuge beyond, but

14 across the border from that enclave of Bihac pocket it was a

15 Serb-controlled area and that's where the UN was deployed, and they were

16 themselves, the Serbs in that area where the UN was involved, as my

17 meetings in Dvor show, they were also involved in this matter themselves.

18 Therefore, we were consequently involved. And therefore, we needed the

19 assistance of the two agencies, UNHCR and ICRC best suited to deal with

20 this matter.

21 Q. Can we then move on to as you describe it the report that you sent

22 on the 4th of July, which I think caused, as you say, something of a

23 furore, that is please Exhibit P1671. Dated the 3rd of July, a memorandum

24 headed "Humanitarian aid" and if we just turn over the page, it's

25 addressed to a Ms. Y. Auger.

1 A. Auger.

2 Q. Auger. DDCA Belgrade. And a Mr. -- and copied to Mr. Magnusson.

3 And Ms. Auger was what?

4 A. She was Mr. Cedric's immediate deputy in Zagreb.

5 Q. No, that's Mr. Magnusson?

6 A. No, Ms. Auger. Magnusson was another aide but he didn't have

7 the title. Ms. Auger outranked him.

8 Q. Right. Subject, humanitarian aid, I refer to your subject memo of

9 1st of July, 1992. The football field in Bosanski Novi is clearly visible

10 from the town of Dvor in the UNPA. Further to our many previous reports

11 on this, let me clarify that our sense of frustration is not, as stated in

12 Mr. Magnusson's subject memo to the FC?

13 A. Force commander.

14 Q. Force commander.

15 A. Mr. Nambiar.

16 Q. Our inability to investigate this matter. Can we pause there for

17 a moment? So Mr. Magnusson had sent a memo to General Nambiar, had he?

18 A. Let me be -- try again. At this moment, I'm almost seething with

19 anger about this matter. I have to say that. I'm seething with anger. I

20 have sent numerous messages to this headquarters in Zagreb, and now I'm

21 told that you are unable to investigate this matter. We were being

22 misread by Magnusson and I intended to put him on notice that it is not an

23 inability to investigate this matter. Had I been even more blunt, I would

24 have -- or daring I would have said it's because nobody is paying

25 attention to what we are sending to you.

1 Q. Right.

2 A. That is really what I meant.

3 Q. When you say you're seething with anger, that was then in July,

4 1992?

5 A. Yes, yes, yes, I still -- yes.

6 Q. Right. I believe you have received a stream of reports not only

7 of Bosanski Novi but also for other flash points along the border with

8 BH. Bihac, Cazin, Velika Kladusa and Bosanska Dubica. In these reports

9 we highlighted the following points: We believe the football field

10 detainees are only a tip of the iceberg involving the concerted action of

11 local Serbian authorities in BH trying to establish a Serbian Republic of

12 BH, free of Muslims.

13 In that process, the mayors, the militia and the TDF of Bosanski

14 Novi acting in unison with their counterparts not only in the UNPA, Dvor

15 and Kostajnica, but also with Bosanska Dubica, Banja Luka, Prijedor,

16 Sanski Most and Kljuc.

17 Now, in this part of the letter, you said acting not only with

18 Dvor but with Dubica, Banja Luka, Prijedor, Sanski Most, Kljuc. You've

19 already explained to us that you've been given reports from Prijedor and

20 Sanski Most and I think Kljuc. What about Banja Luka? How did that come

21 into it?

22 A. This -- you will recall there was a telephone call received by

23 Mr. Paolo Raffone where Mr. Kupresanin had also alluded to the same towns

24 and warning from his own count 15.000 people had left the area of Banja

25 Luka and warning that 15.000 more would follow, and then saying to us,

1 "Please, the international organisation, we need the assistance of the

2 humanitarian agencies in this crisis."

3 Q. All right. The Serbs appear to be engaged in a determined process

4 of forcefully disarming Muslims where they are clearly a small encircled

5 minority, such as in Bosanski Novi or besieging their city totally, such

6 as in Bihac. Apparently, the football field is their holding ground where

7 Muslim groups are detained while their houses are being, in inverted

8 commas searched, the men isolated and transported to concentration camps.

9 The UNHCR representative and civil affairs have pieced together reports

10 from Muslims who recently have taken refuge under UNPROFOR protection in

11 Dvor and Kostajnica. There are reported concentration camps at the

12 following locations: Keraterm located at a railroad station in Prijedor

13 en route to Banja Luka, 100 to 200 Muslims believed to be here under

14 extremely bad conditions. Trnopolje: Also located at a railroad station

15 in Prijedor, direction Banja Luka; a refugee camp for women, children and

16 old men. Omarska: Located in a purely Serbian village, reportedly a camp

17 for Muslim men and local Muslim authorities prior to Serbian takeover of

18 control, particularly in Prijedor. Manjaca: Outside Banja Luka, a large

19 camp reportedly including Croatian soldiers taken prisoner in the fighting

20 in Kostajnica. The treatment of Muslims and other minorities in the camps

21 is reportedly atrocious with regular beatings, deprivation of food and

22 water, poor shelter, et cetera. Today in a meeting with ICRC and UNHCR,

23 the above subject of humanitarian aid was discussed. The ICRC informed us

24 that they will be deployed in BH and took the information we had on the

25 subject. They also informed us that the ICRC will deploy a delegate or

1 two specifically in Sector North to be located either in Vojnic or Glina.

2 This in our view is a very positive step which we had recommended to the

3 ICRC as a matter of urgency.

4 Our frustration arises from our inability to do anything other

5 than write reports and stand by. Since UNPROFOR has no operational

6 responsibilities across the border. In recent days, the situation has

7 deteriorated and has now begun to spill over to the UNPA. We have seen a

8 mounting number of desperate people who have crossed over to seek refuge

9 and protection from UNPROFOR. Yesterday, one Mustafa Ogorinac swam across

10 the River Una at 5.00 in the morning from a camp in Bosanska Dubica. He

11 is now under UNPROFOR protection along with two other persons. He shows

12 signs of physical abuse and punishment.

13 In a separate communication dated the 30th of June, I appealed to

14 the special envoy of the UNHCR for one temporary measure to help to cope

15 with the situation while waiting for the ICRC and UNHCR to resume their

16 operations in BH. We have requested a minibus with driver to help in

17 transporting the escapees to safety, since UN vehicles are not to be used

18 for humanitarian purposes. Any assistance you can lend on the acquisition

19 of the 16 to 20 seat minibus and driver is most appreciated. Regards.

20 Now, the camps that you mentioned, these were camps that you had

21 heard about, had you, from the refugees, displaced persons? We will just

22 wait, I think, then, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour while we are waiting I just sort of

25 have a time concern that I want to -- Ms. Korner has now read in their

1 entirety two of these letters this morning. I know that Your Honours are

2 capable of reading. The questions seem to go to one small part of the

3 letters and we just seem to be using up a lot of time reading documents

4 that we can all read, and if that's okay with Your Honours, then it's okay

5 with me. It just seems to me from a time standpoint it's wasteful.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour I propose to go on in the way I have

8 because I think it's important first of all because people are watching

9 and it's no good just taking up parts like that and second because I think

10 it's important that we go through these. I've said I'll finish today and

11 I will. That gives Mr. Ackerman two clear days to cross-examine.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay. Go ahead for the time being and then we

13 see how it develops but try to restrict yourself because I'm pretty sure

14 that in every letter there may be paragraphs that are -- I know that you

15 have skipped some in other documents but -- any way, I leave it in your

16 hands.

17 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

18 Q. Now, I'm sorry, now that the banging has stopped, Mr. Kirudja, the

19 camps that you mention here, that's information you got from the refugees

20 or displaced persons, is it?

21 A. Yes. This again back in context, we have seen these number of

22 refugees, beginning with the one that had gathered in Velika Kladusa.

23 Those who had crossed, we had all of -- a lot of them in a hotel in

24 Vojnic. My colleagues spent sleepless nights with them one by one and

25 pieced together the information that they summarised in this memo, but it

1 was also something else. It's very condensed, as you can see, because I'm

2 talking about my headquarters, talking about not telling them, talking

3 about we are unable to investigate. So I wanted it concise and clear:

4 This is what we are facing. This is what the consequences are. And we

5 don't have a choice about it.

6 Q. Now, did anybody, when you sent this memorandum, to your

7 knowledge, do anything about this?

8 A. Absolutely not. It was never -- I wasn't even sure anybody else

9 cared about it, until General Nambiar called me later on, towards -- one

10 or two days later. And he called me because he was concerned about the

11 language "concentration camp." General Nambiar was a very careful man. I

12 respect him a lot and I worked with him very well. So he called me and

13 said, "Why are you sure it's a concentration camp?" And I said to him,

14 come to think of it, we just translated -- we just wrote down what the

15 interpreter said the people called them, the people talking to us, and the

16 interpreter talking to us said we have a concentration camp in these

17 places.

18 Now, recall, these are people in the former Yugoslavia, expected

19 to know the meaning of the word "concentration camp." Second World War

20 was something that most of them were familiar with. So I said to the

21 general, okay, what would you call it, then, if I wouldn't -- if the term

22 is -- could they then be detention camps? That was the purpose for him

23 calling me just to be sure that our language was not necessarily alarmist.

24 The next thing I knew is that there is headquarters, about a month or so,

25 concerned when this memo became a major brouhaha, leaked out by some

1 places at headquarters in New York. It was on radio, it was on

2 television, and somebody at the head of the DPKO came to see me in Sector

3 North and they wanted to know who leaked the memo. That's all they were

4 concerned, who leaked the memo.

5 Q. Did you hear at any stage about the killings that had taken place

6 in a place called Room 3 in Keraterm at the end of July?

7 A. No. We were also careful not to go into greater detail about this

8 because we were in Sector North. This was in Bosnia, no mandate of the

9 UN. So we restricted the details that we were involved in, just to serve

10 notice that these people are here in Sector North or across the border

11 coming from these places.

12 Q. And in respect of Omarska, did you become aware, at the beginning

13 of August, of the news bulletins that were obtained by an English

14 television crew, Penny Marshall, at any stage?

15 A. At one moment, I had 30 -- 30 or plus, I stopped counting,

16 journalists in my office on Sector North when this memo was out and

17 television crews.

18 Q. All right. Just can you remember when it was leaked, when it came

19 out, roughly?

20 A. I don't know. I am in Sector North, where very rarely had I any

21 communication outside. As soon as I sent my memos under restricted thing

22 I wouldn't know what happened to them.

23 Q. All right. Thank you. Can we move then, please, to the next

24 memorandum that you wrote, or rather Mr. Raffone wrote, P1672? This is

25 dated the 8th of July, subject, arriving refugees from Bosanski Novi, on

1 the 7th of July, 1992, a group of 18 persons arrived in Sector North from

2 Bosanski Novi asking for protection and assistance to cross the CFL?

3 A. Confrontation line.

4 Q. Towards Zagreb or other foreign countries. The civil affairs

5 officer interviewed the group and arranged for the crossing on the 8th of

6 July. Was that you or Mr. Raffone there?

7 A. That is Mr. Raffone, yeah.

8 Q. The following information is based solely on the statements of

9 these persons who have asked for anonymity for security reasons. In

10 Bosanski Novi the Muslim ethnic group, 28 per cent, continue to suffer

11 persecution, deportation and intimidation from Serbian armed groups. The

12 beginning of this crisis is traced back to the end of April, 1992. The

13 persons interviewed reported that all Muslims living in the town and in

14 the neighbouring villages are ready to leave the area towards Croatia or

15 other destinations in Europe.

16 Previously, we reported that the stadium of Bosanski Novi is one

17 of the places where hundreds of persons have been held for screening

18 following which they are expelled from the area towards unknown

19 destinations. Reportedly, all Muslims are forced to sign papers asking

20 them to voluntarily leave under the following conditions: Leave behind

21 all personal property, including cars, personal effects, et cetera; swear

22 that they were permanently leaving the area and that they will never go

23 back to their houses. Following compliance with these conditions, they

24 are issued a declaration from the local TDF commander and the militia or

25 the mayor, allowing them to leave their opstina of residence. They are

1 generally forced to leave in the direction of Dvor. It is reported the

2 local authorities in Dvor do not seem surprised at the arrival of the

3 forcefully removed persons. They even show a cooperative effort to

4 facilitate their way towards Croatian-controlled territories.

5 A calculated strategy to cleanse the area of Muslims appears to

6 have intensified, beginning in May of 1992. House burnings, deportations,

7 summary executions, shooting in the houses, et cetera, are part of the

8 present situation in the towns and villages along the north side of the BH

9 border. Bosanski Novi, Kostajnica, Dubica. Reportedly the militia does

10 not seem to intervene. Some mayors and other Serbs working in the

11 opstinas have also been reported as trying to help the Muslims to leave

12 their house safely. In Bosanski Novi the military police has reported to

13 have its HQ in the Hotel Una. There are reports of brutal torture in the

14 hotel. The persons interviewed believe that the political leaders know

15 what is happening. Some of them attest allegations that some high level

16 politicians in the SDS party are known to have given orders for actions

17 against Muslims. Some of the refugees tell of a retaliatory policy of one

18 Serbian killed in the front line, one Muslim man will be killed. All the

19 men interviewed had been held for some days in the stadium of Bosanski

20 Novi before being expelled. They report that every day some 30 new

21 detainees arrived in the stadium. When the stadium is full, the guards

22 take some of them away to unknown destinations.

23 Some witnesses report that in the first 15 days of May, that some

24 200 persons taken out of the stadium were shot dead nearby.

25 Based on these interviews, the persons estimated that some 5.000

1 persons may try to cross the bridge between Novi and Dvor in the coming

2 days.

3 This letter signed by him to the -- your headquarters but copied

4 to all the other organisations.

5 As far as you and your staff were concerned, from what you were

6 seeing, could all these matters that had happened in different

7 municipalities have been isolated, spontaneous incidents?

8 A. No. By this time, no. We had of course come to the conclusion

9 that this is, as you put it, not an isolated incident, the people are

10 coming from one end of the border with Bosnia, from Bosanska Dubica, which

11 was closest to the edge of our sector all the way down to Bihac and in

12 between, and there were different opstinas that this area comprised. It

13 was clear, to conclude, this could not have been an isolated matter.

14 Q. The persons, according to Mr. Raffone interviewed believe that the

15 political leaders know what is happening. Had you from your own

16 observations or conversations, any view on that matter?

17 A. I must also draw your attention that this letter comes at the wake

18 of -- after the meeting with Pasic himself. So as I -- as Mr. Raffone was

19 summarising what was hearing from his direct interviews with the people,

20 the part it was corroborating what Mr. Pasic and his colleagues were

21 asking me directly to do. So there was no new information to me in that

22 regard. What it did is serve notice that it is coming from different

23 angles that is the purpose for me releasing this memo it's coming from

24 different place but the same thing.

25 Q. So sorry, Mr. Kirudja, the question was: They were saying

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13 English transcripts.

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1 political leaders knew what was happening. Was that your view as well?

2 A. It's my view that the mayors and the police chiefs, if that's what

3 you meant, in each opstina, knew about this.

4 Q. All right. Thank you. Could we then move, please, now, to the

5 following day -- sorry, it's Exhibit 1673, the 12th of July.

6 And I think we just put the front page up because this is another

7 UNHCR letter.

8 Again --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Ms. Korner, I see --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes, can we take that off, Your Honour, thank you

12 very much. It's the same gentleman from UNHCR that we'd seen the earlier

13 correspondence from.

14 Q. Is that right, Mr. Kirudja?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Is this again something that before it was sent was discussed

17 with you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Dated the 12th of July. This -- I can summarise quite a lot of

20 this. He received a message on the 7th of July that there were 79

21 refugees outside the police station in Dvor. When he got there on the 8th

22 of July, and had briefings with DanCon, it turned out that the persons had

23 left the station before and returned to Bosanski Novi, and so then a

24 meeting was called with the deputy mayor, the chief of the militia, but in

25 fact they were unable to attend at shot notice. During the duration of

1 the three hour meeting new Muslims had arrived at the CIVPOL station and

2 he said he was able to interview two family representatives who then

3 returned to Bosanski Novi.

4 Then the situation, he deals with. The background can be found in

5 some acts of the public authorities in the days before. On the 6th of

6 July, 1992, the crisis committee of Bosanski Novi addressed a letter to

7 civil affairs, which was given to me by CIVPOL. According to the letter,

8 the crisis committee informed that 1233 persons had applied to authorities

9 for permission to leave and the community would help provide transport

10 for those Muslims who did not have their own means of transportation. And

11 a copy of the document with translation is appended and we will have a

12 look at that in a moment. 7th of July meeting between the mayor, advice

13 mayor and chairman of the assembly of Dvor and other representatives of

14 the humanitarian organisations, and again this refers to what's in your

15 memorandum about what people had to do before they could leave.

16 The Bosanski Novi informed that they processed applications from

17 1300 families who all fulfilled the criteria. They estimate that this

18 amounts to a total of some 3.000 to 5.000 persons different from the 5.000

19 Muslims in convoy reported on by the end of May, 1992, who by and large

20 had escaped, been sent away by other routes which are no longer open due

21 to the fighting. And then at the beginning of the meeting, on the 8th

22 of July, the Dvor representatives gave us a copy of the order from the

23 Crisis Staff of the Dvor municipality in regard to the Novi situation.

24 And effectively saying they weren't going to allow passage unless

25 it was by UNPROFOR. At the meeting the deputy mayor stressed that his

1 community did not want to do anything without UNPROFOR.

2 Paragraph 11. The chief of police said that the refugee cases

3 started some eight to ten days ago but after the large increase, it became

4 a problem, how many people have already exchanged their houses with Serbs

5 from Croatia. The deputy mayor did not want to second guess the reason

6 why people wanted to leave but later volunteered his own opinion. Some

7 had been disappointed in the politics of Izetbegovic, further after the

8 fighting in the Cazin and Kladusa region and with the return of wounded

9 and killed Serbs, Muslims in the area were getting afraid of revenge from

10 relatives. As the discussions got more frank, they did not contest that

11 it was very questionable whether the request to leave had been signed

12 voluntarily. When I asked them to confirm that the mayors of Bosanski

13 Novi and Banja Luka --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down when reading.

15 MS. KORNER:

16 Q. -- stating that Muslims and Serbs could no longer live together

17 they said it was not the mayor but the chief of the crisis committee in

18 Banja Luka, Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner, I'm asked to draw your attention

20 to --

21 MS. KORNER: I'm speeding up, trying to help Mr. Ackerman out.

22 Q. Then the paragraph -- the letter goes on that try to separate the

23 issues of humanitarian assistance, and then we see in paragraph 14 that on

24 the 8th of July, UNHCR, OSCE, as well as the Croatian authorities were

25 briefed in Zagreb on the matter by the civil affairs coordinator,

1 Mr. Kirudja. So Mr. Kirudja, at the time of this meeting, on the 8th of

2 July, you were actually in Zagreb, were you, briefing the authorities

3 there?

4 A. On July?

5 Q. 8th of July, 1992, if you just check your --

6 A. Yes. I was in Zagreb.

7 Q. Right. I don't think we need trouble actually with the end of

8 this document but can I go back do that paragraph about which mentions

9 Mr. Brdjanin? Was that a name you had heard at all by July of 1992?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you ever hear about him other than in this document?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Now, thank you. Then if we could move through what happened next,

14 can we go please to document 1675? -- 4, I'm sorry, first, sorry.

15 A memo again from Mr. Raffone dated the 13th of July, 5.000 Muslim

16 refugees from Bosanski Novi, following our phone call earlier today,

17 please find attached a self-explanatory note from UNHCR concerning the

18 possible arrival of some 5.000 persons displaced refugees from Bosanski

19 Novi to UNPA north.

20 And if we look at the accompanying document, rather, not terribly

21 clear, but it talks about a meeting on the 11th of July between UNHCR and

22 the mayors and chiefs of police and Bosanski Novi. The main issue the

23 local authorities on both sides trying to get support and approval from

24 UNHCR and UNPROFOR to arrange the transit of 3500 to 5.000 Muslims from

25 BH.

1 Paragraph 2: UNHCR and UNPROFOR stated clearly that participating

2 in displacement or movement of population could never be expected, that no

3 guarantee of safety could be provided through transit, et cetera.

4 And then 3, after the meeting, UNHCR crossed into Bosanski Novi

5 and met representatives of the Muslim population wanting and preparing to

6 leave. Despite all explanations their attitude remained the same, i.e.

7 that their only possibility is to leave Bosnian Krajina for destinations

8 in Croatia, Slovenia and Western Europe.

9 And then it deals -- and then at the bottom, that apparently on

10 the 11th of July, reportedly a number of buses with Serbs from north and

11 north-eastern parts of Bihac entered the UNPA. Some of these arrivals had

12 been confirmed and concerns are that we are facing another population

13 movement where Croatian property and houses and UNPA north will be taken

14 into use by Serbian population and local informers even mentioned

15 volunteers from Belgrade in this context.

16 I think you told us earlier, Mr. Kirudja, but you yourself never

17 did cross the border into Bosanski Novi, did you?

18 A. I was very careful not to do that. I was already being accused of

19 extending UNPA concerns into Bosnia where we have no mandate so I was

20 very careful not to cross it but I sent somebody else to cross it.

21 Q. Right. Okay. Can we look, please, at P1675?

22 A short memorandum for the same date, talking about the 20

23 busloads of refugees from Bosanski Novi crossing the border. Today an

24 advance group of people from Bosanski Novi arrived at the gate of DanCon

25 and announced that on Wednesday, the 15th of July, at 12 noon, 20 bus

1 loads of refugees will arrive in Dvor. And they have been told that

2 UNPROFOR won't be able to assist, the government of Croatia has given

3 instructions to its border police.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please read that slower and

5 louder?

6 MS. KORNER:

7 Q. Then if we move, all of this being the buildup to what actually

8 happened, these two -- one Exhibit P1676.

9 Again, this is from Mr. Raffone, I think, and --

10 A. Not the one I have, 21 July?

11 Q. Can I just see what you've got there? Sorry, the -- oh, sorry.

12 Just a moment. Sorry, Your Honour, it's my fault. It's actually in a

13 different document.

14 [Prosecution counsel confer]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it 1676 or not?

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, no the one I was looking at isn't, it

17 was document 31 of Mr. Kirudja's documents so it doesn't make much

18 difference I don't think.

19 Q. This is a document as you say signed by you on the 21st of July,

20 Mr. Kirudja?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And sorry, I just want to -- all right. Let's deal with that and

23 I'm going to ask for a break because my numbering seems to have gone

24 somewhat -- dated the 21st of July, subject refugees. We have received a

25 copy of Andreev's message of -- is that 1409, July 1992?

1 A. 14 of July, 9.00.

2 Q. All right. Before we go on, Mr. Andreev being whom?

3 A. Mr. Andreev was my counterpart based in Knin Sector South.

4 Q. Right. Then he says, and he'd sent a message, had he, about

5 refugees from Bihac clearly, judging by the first paragraph?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I would advise that this should be considered as different from

8 the 4.000 refugees expected to transit through Sector North in the next

9 two days from Bosanski Novi. The UNHCR has obtained the consent of the

10 Croatian government to allow passage of the 4.000, copy of a self

11 explanatory letter from Prime Minister Greguric is attached and then

12 it talks about the logistics of transit involving some 45 buses and 200

13 cars from Bosanski Novi to Karlovac and then the logistics and then

14 repeating, the 10.000 refugees mentioned by Andreev are over and above

15 the arrangements being made to transit through Sector North.

16 I'd be grateful if Andreev could apprise the authorities in Knin

17 of these developments. And then you enclosed the letter from the

18 government of the Republic of Croatia. In fact addressed to Mr.

19 Mendiluce, and appears as follows: Dear sir we received your letter

20 describing the present situation of ethnic cleansing in Novi, as reported

21 by your group of senior officers from UNHCR Zagreb.

22 And then it does say that as a last solution, they will allow

23 these people into the Republic of Croatia.

24 Mr. Kirudja, had that -- had it been difficult to persuade the

25 government of Croatia to take this?

1 A. At this moment, we regarded the letter as an anticlimax. We had,

2 as you read earlier, worked strenuously to be sure that this number of

3 people do not get moved, and we were at the same time in touch with the

4 Croatian side, who sustained our position that we wouldn't allow such a

5 movement to be undertaken. They held that line until somewhere within the

6 time period last few days of that letter, for other consideration for

7 which I wasn't privy they decided they will accept 4.000.

8 Q. Right. Yes, and really I think I can finish this off. Although I

9 have -- I thought my numbering system had gone wrong, so I need to back

10 here for a couple of things. But effectively, did this convoy pass

11 through on the 23rd of July?

12 A. It did but not in the numbers that were expected.

13 Q. More or less?

14 A. More. Instead of 4.000, over 9.000.

15 Q. Yes.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry, could we just take the break

17 five minutes early while I redo my numbering system?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We will take a 25 minute break and

19 resume soon after.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we may as well get the witness but I

23 don't know where Mr. Ackerman is. Perhaps the usher can get the witness

24 and perhaps somebody could tell us where Mr. Ackerman is.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought we had lost you, Mr. Ackerman.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: The door was locked and I was standing in the hall

2 and couldn't get in. It's not unusual. I'm defence.

3 MS. KORNER: While we wait for Mr. Kirudja to come in, I have

4 missed out part of the document. That's what was worrying me. It's 1672,

5 so if the Registrar could find that one again.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's bring the witness in.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, I've had a complete telling off from

9 the interpreters so I think I better put the ear phones on.

10 Q. Mr. Kirudja, I'm going to ask you, please, to have back P1672,

11 because I did miss out some of the attachments.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this document enclosed the letter

13 referred to from Mr. Pasic and a document and clearly, the authorities had

14 done their own English translation of the original letter and we had a

15 proper translation done which makes it slightly clearer. I hope Your

16 Honours have got it.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

18 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

19 Q. We went through the first of these documents from Mr. Raffone but

20 I think enclosed with it, Mr. Kirudja, were documents that had been sent

21 and translated or part of it translated, by Mr. Pasic; is that correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. If we then look, please, and I'd like you to be given --

24 A. Excuse me, it may be my own interpreters. I can't be sure whether

25 it is Pasic. Usually my own interpreters at Sector North were able to do

1 that.

2 Q. All right. I don't want to insult them but I think we had a

3 slightly better interpretation done of it. I wonder if you could be given

4 just for a moment, please, the new translation?

5 A. Is it attached to here?

6 Q. I don't know.

7 A. Just a minute, please.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: How would I be able to tell the difference between

9 the new one and the old one? Or do I not have it?

10 MS. KORNER: Just a moment, please, Mr. Ackerman. You were sent

11 -- there is a translation done into English, it was with the original

12 documents done either by Mr. Kirudja's interpreters or by the authorities

13 in Bosanski Novi. We retranslated it and you've got that. You were given

14 that sometime ago.

15 A. What I have --

16 MS. KORNER: It's no good shrugging, you've got it. If you don't

17 have it, it's not our fault.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm not disagreeing, Ms. Korner. I'm just

19 suggesting that I don't have it here in front of me. I totally trust that

20 you gave it to me at one point.

21 MS. KORNER: All right. We've got one more copy, again.

22 Q. This was a letter dated the 6th of July, from apparently

23 Mr. Pasic. It was stamped and signed.

24 A. Excuse me, counsel, I have a copy of the translation of my own

25 memo in Serbian, and the one that you want to focus on isn't in this set.

1 It's not in the set you just gave me.

2 Q. All right.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MS. KORNER:

5 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Kirudja, there is always this problem about --

6 A. No problem.

7 Q. All right. This is a translation of the stamped Serbian letter

8 which there was already a translation of.

9 A. Still not.

10 Q. Oh, for heaven's sake. No. It's no point giving Mr. Kirudja the

11 Serbian translation. It's the English.

12 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]

13 MS. KORNER: No you didn't.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: The documents the usher brought to me just a moment

15 ago as the English translation were all in Serbian, so I support that.

16 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour there is a new translation

17 I'm not going to bother with this. Let's just look at the one they did.

18 Q. Okay, Mr. Kirudja, if we look very -- and I think we can summarise

19 it through your own translation, there was a letter dated the 6th of July?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. In which they said that they wanted 1233 persons had applied to

22 leave, given all the required statements, and then the statements --

23 statements of immovable property and asked for the meeting with the

24 representatives. And then safeguarding the convoy will be provided by

25 internal affairs. And then also attached, I think, was another document

1 which in fact you didn't apparently get translated but we have and when we

2 find them, Your Honour, I think you've got them, it was the municipal

3 Crisis Staff -- I think perhaps the best thing is if you haven't got it

4 there, Mr. Kirudja, can we put this on the ELMO and then we can all see.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Just going to see it myself. Dated the 8th of July, and

7 discussing -- it talks about how it discussed a memo from Bosanski Novi

8 municipal Crisis Staff concerning the voluntary departure, and then if we

9 look, if you can move the document up the ELMO slightly, please, the Dvor

10 public security station is instructed not to issue individual passes, only

11 for migrant convoys, UNPROFOR civilian police requested to contact the

12 government of the Republic of Croatia and after that, they would issue

13 passes for the convoy and finally, 3, instructed to step up controls at

14 the crossing point to prevent the passage of Muslim and other

15 ethnicities. I think you referred to that or it was referred to in one of

16 the documents we already read. Okay. And then I think the final document

17 was another which I missed out, 9th of July memorandum by yourself,

18 dealing with the position of the government of Croatia over these

19 refugees. So thank you, we can now get rid of that rather difficult

20 document.

21 A. Thank you.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, did Your Honours have that translation?

23 You did, right so I don't know what's happened to everybody else's.

24 Q. Then, Mr. Kirudja, I'm sorry, there was one, as I said, my note

25 system fell at this point, I think on the 10th of July, you had a meeting

1 with the mayor of Dvor and the deputy mayor of Bosanski Novi, which is

2 recorded in your diary, if you could have a look at that.

3 A. Yes, I do have that meeting marked in my notes here.

4 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honours, this is page 26 of the

5 statement.

6 Q. This -- was this a meeting, can you recall that you had asked for

7 or that they asked for?

8 A. My notes don't clarify that, and -- but since it was in Dvor,

9 again this was within our mandate, my area of Sector North, routine

10 meetings there would have been -- it wouldn't have made a great difference

11 who asked for it because it is inside the sector.

12 Q. All right. Now, I think it was about the issue of refugees?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And were they claiming that they had to look after 7500 refugees

15 from Croatia?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did they say, however, something about the Muslim population?

18 A. The mayor at this time was repeating same things that we had heard

19 before by Mayor Borojevic. By then, I believe by this time, Borojevic had

20 resigned or been moved. Yet the language from the deputy mayor is

21 indistinguishable from the previous mayor.

22 Q. Did they talk about allowing the Muslim population to leave?

23 A. They -- they -- my notes here show that they still are talking

24 about voluntary people leaving through the sector. Again, notwithstanding

25 the prior meeting where in writing I made clear this is -- there is

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1 nothing voluntary about this, and they are also telling us, and I quote,

2 "UNPROFOR and UNHCR do not seem to believe that these people are leaving

3 voluntarily and are being forced to leave. When you understand the

4 problem will be solved." In short what the mayor is saying, "As soon as

5 you change your mind about it, the problem will be solved. It's not a

6 problem for Serbs in Bosanski Novi and need not ask for UNHCR assistance."

7 It's a bit of defiance going on here.

8 Q. How did you interpret what was being said in respect of what was

9 going to happen if UNHCR didn't assist or UNPROFOR?

10 A. We will solve the problem by ourselves, they said.

11 Q. And how did you think that -- what did you understand that they

12 were going to solve the problem by what means?

13 A. By now, I was clear that no matter what we said, there was a

14 determination to proceed this way. The number of the refugees that you

15 mentioned earlier, number of 7.500 Serb refugees who were expelled from

16 Bosanski Novi it was repeated again by the deputy mayor, the voluntary

17 situation is also repeated. It's like a broken record. They will repeat

18 that no matter what I did.

19 Q. Did he say something else, though? This is the mayor.

20 A. On this meeting?

21 Q. M'hm.

22 A. On this specific meeting, I'm not sure that --

23 Q. Perhaps I can lead because I think --

24 A. Unless you have something specific that you want me to recall.

25 Q. I think because I'm sure Mr. Ackerman would like me to bring it

1 out, but did he in fact at some stage say to you, I am the mayor of all

2 people and I will see to it that Muslims will not be expelled?

3 A. Yes, that I can see here but this is after I said that -- and he

4 said, "I am the mayor of all people in Bosanski Novi and we will extend

5 the protection to Muslims. They will not be expelled." That I have here

6 in my notes. I was talking about some other idea that, like football

7 field or anything. I don't know whether that's what you had in mind.

8 Q. No. First of all, did you accept that, that statement, that he

9 wasn't going to see -- that he would see that Muslims weren't expelled?

10 A. No. I wrote it down because I -- I knew these people I had worked

11 with them many, many times. There was always a back stepping whenever I

12 increased our resistance to the idea. So it was his way of saying to me

13 we are not trying to harm these people even if you don't believe they are

14 leaving voluntarily. That's all he was trying to tell me.

15 Q. Right.

16 A. Right.

17 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, let's go back to, because we had gone

18 ahead to the 23rd of July, and the actual convoy itself, but before that,

19 had you heard -- had you heard anything from Mr. Thornberry about your

20 actions?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And what was Mr. Thornberry telling you?

23 A. This time it's a memo he sent to me clearly saying you should

24 not -- you should desist from this involvement you have with these

25 refugees coming from Bosanski Novi -- from across the border into Bosnia

1 because, according to Mr. Thornberry, the Security Council mandate does

2 not extend across the border, something of course I would think he was

3 right about.

4 Q. We can see from what happened that you nonetheless proceeded.

5 What was your view that you morally, whatever the mandate was, should be

6 doing?

7 A. I meant in this time, if you pardon my earlier comment that I had

8 been frustrated a couple of times by sending these reports and not having

9 anything happen, all -- but the misinterpretation and I considered it a

10 misinterpretation that we were being involved across Bosnia. The message

11 we were sending was, the UN location here is attracting the attention of

12 all these people in dire straits. These people are not looking at the

13 Security Council mandate. They are looking at the flag of the UN and they

14 can see it clear and they think of it as a place of refuge. And to

15 approach it in that narrow manner was to miss the point.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, let's move on, please, to the 22nd of July,

17 Exhibit P1677. And I think we can summarise this document that was sent

18 by you because that actually dealt with the transit UNHCR having dealt

19 with the logistics of that.

20 Next, please, could we look at -- all right. Yes, you've dealt

21 with the evacuation, I'm sorry, the evacuation -- the number of people

22 coming from Bosanski Novi well exceeding the figures that you had

23 expected.

24 I want now to move to, please, August, and could you have a look,

25 please, at a document that was numbered document 37?

1 Now, this is a slightly different, I think, report from the

2 earlier ones we have been looking at. Was this --

3 A. Excuse me, my copy is in Serbian.

4 Q. Mr. Kirudja, we can see that it's addressed to Mr. Thornberry from

5 you and it says attached is a civil affairs sit-rep dated the 22nd of

6 August, 1992. Was this a regular sort of weekly report?

7 A. One of -- yes. This complements specific reports you have put in

8 front of me which we would put up because of the subject on the day the

9 subject occurred.

10 Q. Right.

11 A. Also, at the end of the week, I was requested to put together a

12 situation report that kind of put together for that week what was

13 happening and giving it a better context of understanding, connecting

14 documents where need was. So it would be called a situation report for

15 that week.

16 Q. Right. I want you to go, please, in that report, to the third

17 page which is headed, "The border with Bosnia." In paragraph 9, the

18 border with BH continues to be a zone of conflict and a source of pressure

19 from refugees wishing to transit the UNPA to elsewhere in Croatia and

20 beyond.

21 And then you set out the problems it's causing.

22 And then coming to paragraph 12, you talk about the delegation

23 that came on the 19th of August. Can I just ask you this, though? Before

24 that, had you had any meetings with Mr. Mendiluce about the expected

25 arrival of further displaced persons or refugees?

1 A. It's my recollection I had met a number of times with

2 Mr. Mendiluce, first in connection with the first batch of refugees that

3 crossed, the one I said were more like 9.000. And thereafter, because we

4 had warned if you do this, it only -- it's going to be only round 1, and

5 there will be more coming. So this paragraph, paragraph 12, is talking

6 about the attempt to cause round 2.

7 Q. Right.

8 A. Right.

9 Q. Then it reads on the 19th of August, UNHCR and civil affairs

10 received at Topusko a delegation of nine representatives, Serbs and

11 Muslims, of Sanski Most, Bosanska Krupa and Prijedor, all from BH. Their

12 intention was to convince the UN to change its policy and assist in the

13 organisation of a convoy through Sector North to evacuate up to 11.000

14 mostly Muslims from Sanski Most, 8.000 from Prijedor, and 600 from

15 Bosanska Krupa. A detailed list of 7.782 names of those ready to leave

16 voluntarily was delivered.

17 Were you given this list?

18 A. Yes. The date of this sit-rep is 26 August. The meeting took

19 place a day or two earlier, I believe the 19th of August, where again the

20 authorities from these towns on their own showed up in my office, from

21 these places, Sanski Most, Prijedor and others. Literally they showed up

22 in the office. They give me an indication of the numbers that they expect

23 to come out of Sanski Most, 11.000; Prijedor, 8.000; Bosanska Krupa, 600;

24 and so forth. At the same time, they give me a printed list,

25 computer-produced, in the old printer where one page is attached to the

1 next. It was a long, detailed list with the names and certain other

2 details that I forget because this list for some reason was lost

3 somewhere. I have never seen it since the last time I was looking at it

4 in my office. It was a detailed, typed list and then we counted the names

5 on it after they left, and that's why we came with the precise number of

6 7.782 names on that list.

7 Q. All right. Now, I think you made a note in your diary of the

8 persons or some of the persons who attended that meeting. Is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Could you have a look, please, then, at your note and tell us who

12 was there?

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this is page 34 of the statement.

14 THE WITNESS: On that day, there was Mr. Vlado Vrkes, president of

15 the SDS, Sanski Most. There was Dragan Majkic, representatives of the

16 militia of Sanski Most. There was a Mr. Besim Islamcevic, the

17 representative of Muslims and Croatians willing to leave Sanski Most.

18 There was a Mr. Esad Hasanovic, representative of Muslim refugees from

19 Bosanska Krupa, now in Sanski Most -- at that time was in Sanski Most.

20 That is shown at the front of my meeting. I believe somewhere inside the

21 meeting there may be other people that were taken note of by my colleague,

22 the gentleman from UNHCR, because I may have stopped writing as soon as

23 they started speaking so I can take note of what they are saying.

24 Q. Right. I don't think you made a note, did you, of the names of

25 the persons from Prijedor?

1 A. No. That is my indication that I may have stopped taking their

2 names and started taking down their speech.

3 Q. All right. Now, can you tell us, from your notes, please, then,

4 what was said at this meeting? Flesh out what is in that short report?

5 A. Basically, it was a request for round 2, that we allow, in a

6 similar manner that was done in July, that these people pass through

7 Sector North in a similar manner. At this moment, they were not talking

8 to me about voluntarily. At that moment, that issue was not being

9 reprised again. I was given the precise estimated numbers that would come

10 from different places, and I have just given you those numbers.

11 Q. Yeah.

12 A. And they also listened to UNHCR reiterate the position that this

13 is not something we are going to allow.

14 Q. Now, can you -- I think you made a note first of all of what

15 Mr. Islamcevic said.

16 A. Yes. He started by saying, and I quote, "I'm authorised to say

17 that the convoy should be escorted by UNPROFOR." In short I took that as

18 a cue from him, I'm asked to say these things to you. And they were, "I

19 am authorised" and then he proceeds to say. We don't want to go from one

20 part of Bosnia to another and we do not want war. Have guarantees from

21 relatives where we want to go to and we want to say Serbian authorities

22 are treating us fairly. We want guarantees that none of the people will

23 be taken out of the convoy from start to Karlovac. Karlovac was the

24 destination where they would have crossed to the Croatian-controlled side

25 of the sector. All other routes are routes to the unknown so this is the

1 only route Mr. Islamcevic wanted his people to follow.

2 Q. And did Mr. Vrkes say something?

3 A. Yes. He started by saying there are 25.000 Muslims in Sanski

4 Most. We accepted their other numbers in Bosanska Krupa, he didn't name a

5 number. Sanski Most is the only opstina taking care of all the three

6 nationalities, as the language used to refer to Serbs, Croats and Muslims,

7 they were referred to them collectively as other nationalities. And he

8 went on to say there were 50 per cent Serbs, 50 per cent Muslims and

9 Croats in Sanski Most. Historically Muslims were not included in -- in

10 these regions. Basically that is the cryptic -- I mean summary of his

11 statement.

12 Q. Did he tell you anything about what people had to do who wanted to

13 leave the area?

14 A. Yes. I -- I underscore when I write these things and I'm in --

15 I'm the person they came to see in the meeting, and I don't always write

16 everything that is here so my notes should not be considered as complete

17 in that sense.

18 Q. Right.

19 A. The report I write following those notes should be.

20 Q. Right.

21 A. Right.

22 Q. So do you have anything in your notes about Mr. Vrkes telling you

23 what people had to do in order to leave?

24 A. No, not directly here on the notes.

25 Q. All right. Can you tell us whether anything was said by the

1 representative from Bosanska Krupa?

2 A. Yes. He started by expressing disappointment with the

3 relationship between us and UNHCR. For one month our application pending

4 and nothing done, in short our again typical that we had already signalled

5 our unwillingness to participate. So he was expressing displeasure with

6 that. And he went on to give credit to quote government help that he --

7 they were getting from Sanski Most. And -- but he went on to talk about

8 every day we were being forced to leave the houses we are in. He stressed

9 we have guaranteed accommodation and jobs, 80 per cent, in Slovenia and

10 other countries. And he give me a copy of a guarantees that he said they

11 were being given. He made reference to winter coming, and the conditions

12 worsening as winter set on. He was requesting assistance to get to the

13 places where they wanted to go and their vehicles were all ready for that.

14 Q. And he was a Muslim, was he, the gentleman from Bosanska Krupa?

15 A. The Bosanska Krupa representative, yes, he was billed as a

16 representative of Muslim and Croatian willing to leave Sanski Most, from

17 the name one would assume he would be Muslim.

18 Q. All right. What about Prijedor? Did the representatives from

19 Prijedor say anything?

20 A. He -- I only have one line note from him. We have 8.000 requests

21 for exits. Not all of these 8.000 are Muslims because some of them are

22 mixed marriages.

23 Q. Now, if we look, then, please, back to the report, at paragraph

24 12, I think we see that the UNHCR repeated its policy of non-participation

25 in such convoys from Bosnia, and that at the end of the meeting, the

1 delegation left feeling that the UN was an obstacle to what one of them

2 called a humanitarian gesture by the Serbs to Muslims reached through a

3 democratic process. Do you remember who said that?

4 A. As I mentioned, all of them were focused on that disappointment

5 since it wasn't vague, we said so. We intended to not to participate, and

6 we said so. So you could assume on one side both the Muslims

7 representatives felt that disappointment themselves because they wanted to

8 leave in these places that they expressed they wanted to go and we were

9 not helping in their own eyes. Of course, on the Serb side, they felt

10 disappointed because we told them, in the language we used this morning,

11 this is not something that the UN or UNHCR can participate in, because of

12 its enormity and because of its implications, you're taking people from

13 their homes and making refugees out of them.

14 Q. Right. Now, if we just finish that report, I'd like you to look

15 at some documents outside of the ones you've produced.

16 There was in paragraph 13, there was a report dated the 12th of

17 August, saying that 10.000 refugees were scheduled to cross, and that the

18 UN participation in the convoy could not be considered as supporting the

19 ethnic cleansing policy.

20 Pausing there for a moment, at this stage were you using the

21 terms, and we can see this report generally, that this was ethnic

22 cleansing?

23 A. No. We were -- ourselves -- not trying to characterise things at

24 this moment one way or the other, because we kept our eyes on the essence

25 of the issue, those refugees and making sure if we insist that they don't

1 cross, you also want to be sure that you're not condemning them into a

2 situation where there will be killings and all others. You wanted to

3 achieve two things. You wanted to serve notice hopefully that we were

4 hoping the Serbs who were clearly forcing this issue to rethink and

5 protect them, and you heard that statement from the mayor, we are not

6 harming them, because we wanted him to understand we are looking but we

7 are not going to move them any way.

8 Secondly, then we wanted their protection. So we wouldn't use

9 terms like that, other people outside the sector did.

10 Q. Right. Then finishing off this, she had no information on the

11 300.000 Muslims reported to be cut off in the city of Bihac. And

12 everything we have heard or know from UNHCR is contrary to that press

13 release. Most importantly, both the UNHCR and UNPROFOR representatives on

14 the ground could find ourselves confronting local officials should they

15 get a hold of that press release. And being told that we are acting

16 contrary to official New York policy. It is not too long ago when local

17 officials got hold of a story about a suppressed report of the

18 Secretary-General which they used to advantage. There was no such

19 suppressed report as we were later advised.

20 And then, the last paragraph deals with the medical evacuations

21 and the rest of the report, I think, with matters unconnected with this

22 case.

23 A. Counsel, that report on -- is a reference to the document we saw

24 this morning about concentration camps and what I mentioned earlier today.

25 Q. Right.

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours that one -- this document hasn't been

2 exhibited yet so may it be made P1648?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what was given to us as document 37?

4 MS. KORNER: Correct, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

6 MS. KORNER:

7 Q. Now, before we go on to your next situation report, I want to you

8 look, please, at some of the documents that were written by the Serbs

9 themselves in relation to this issue, see how this accords with what

10 you've been telling us. Could you have a look, please, first of all, at

11 P709? This is a document that comes from the Sanski Most municipality,

12 the executive committee, dated the 30th of July, and in item number 1, it

13 states this at the third paragraph: There are currently about question

14 mark 18.000 Muslims and Croats in the Sanski Most municipality area, and

15 in order to avoid danger to the Serbian people, it is necessary to

16 organise their voluntary resettlement.

17 Now, that talks about, in July of 1992, and your meeting was on

18 the 19th of August, some 18.000 Muslims and Croats. How does that figure

19 marry up with what you were being told, can you say?

20 A. It's recognisable in two aspects, that there were Muslims and

21 Croats and they were in Sanski Most, and that there is an organisation of

22 voluntary resettlement. That is what we were being told. And later on we

23 didn't of course agree that it was voluntary.

24 Q. Did any of these representatives that you were talking to,

25 particularly Mr. Vrkes or Mr. Vrunicic say to you that these people were a

1 potential danger to the Serbs, that is the Muslims and Croats?

2 A. The Muslims themselves were extremely cautious to -- when they

3 were in front of us to give credit to their Serb colleagues that they are

4 treating us well. But that's in our presence. It's not the same when we

5 were interviewing the refugees coming from there. The opposite is being

6 said.

7 Q. All right.

8 A. Right.

9 Q. So but at that meeting, neither Mr. Vrunicic nor Mr. Vrkes, said

10 to you we want them out because they are a danger or a potential danger?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Yes, thank you. Now could you have a look please at another

13 document from Sanski Most, P716? Now this one is dated the 17th of August

14 so two days before the meeting, and it's addressed to the CSB in Banja

15 Luka, for the chief, and signed by this gentleman who attended your

16 meeting, Mr. Vrunicic, stating that at the beginning of August, the

17 civilian and military organs of Sanski Most municipality adopted a

18 decision and launched an initiative whereby citizens of Muslim or Croatian

19 ethnicity can submit to the administrative organ of the municipal assembly

20 a written request and a declaration of loyalty requesting that they be

21 allowed to stay in the territory. A special municipal committee deals

22 with these requests. And the SJB was given the task of issuing these

23 permits. Since this concerned a document that is not prescribed by the

24 law on the interior we ask to you give us instructions on how to proceed

25 further with the issue of these permits. We should point out that this

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1 does not concern any new registration of residents and so on and so forth.

2 Now, was there any discussion at that meeting between you and the

3 representatives of Sanski Most about people who wanted to stay, giving a

4 declaration of loyalty?

5 A. No. This matter had -- didn't come up at that meeting. It was

6 only in the prior meetings.

7 Q. All right. Again, I think I've asked you this but was there

8 anything said by either of these gentlemen about the people who wanted to

9 leave voluntarily, what they had to do?

10 A. This was alluded to by the Muslim side of the representation that

11 they had already received the necessary permits from the local Serbs and

12 they said that with an air of gratefulness that we were -- we are ready to

13 leave and it's us who -- us meaning UNPROFOR -- who are standing in the

14 way.

15 Q. Yes, thank you. You can put that document away. Now could you

16 have a look please at parts of a very lengthy document, Exhibit P717?

17 Now, this document was a lengthy report produced sometime after

18 the 14th of August, dealing with a number of municipalities, the first

19 being Prijedor, and I'd like you to find, please, it's on the 4th page,

20 resettlement of citizens from the municipality of Prijedor. This is in

21 fact was the commission who produced this report.

22 About -- according to this, to the SJB Prijedor, about 4.000 to

23 5.000 persons, mainly of Muslim ethnicity left the municipality before the

24 armed conflict. The armed conflict began at the end of May, Mr. Kirudja.

25 Were you receiving refugees from Prijedor before the end of May?

1 A. I can't be sure that we did or didn't. What I have reported to is

2 the constant stream of different refugees, so I can't answer directly to

3 that.

4 Q. All right. Then the second paragraph, from the beginning of the

5 armed conflict, in the municipality of Prijedor, until the 16th of August,

6 1992, according to data that had been insufficiently checked out, about

7 20.000 citizens left the municipality, mainly of Muslim and Croatian but

8 also of Serbian ethnicity. Of all ages and groups. And then on the 16th

9 of August, Prijedor SJB received and made positive rulings on 13.180

10 applications to unregister the legal places of residence. Mainly from

11 citizens of Muslim nationality who expressed the desire to depart for the

12 Republic of Slovenia or other countries of Western Europe. This group has

13 not left the municipality but has just completed the unregistering of

14 residences and is now with the help of religious and humanitarian

15 organisations looking for a way of resettling in the desired direction.

16 Prijedor SJB has no data about what these people have done with their

17 immovable assets or what they have done or will do with their movable

18 assets.

19 Now, does that accord, this paragraph, three days before your

20 meeting, with what you were being told by the Prijedor representatives at

21 this meeting?

22 A. It does only indirectly in the sense that they informed us of

23 8.000, which is a subset of the number given in that paragraph. It would

24 be a problem if the number they told us was bigger than that number but

25 since it's less I assume it's a subset of that number.

1 Q. They however, this expression, desire to depart for the Republic

2 of Slovenia or other countries of Western Europe, I think that was

3 something that was mentioned in your record of the meeting, was it not?

4 A. Yes, yes, that is constant. It was in that meeting. It was in

5 the meeting before and it is a constant reference.

6 Q. Then we can go on in the report, we come to Sanski Most at page 7,

7 page 6 is the reception centres. The sports hall I think was what was

8 mentioned in that report that we saw as one of the so-called investigation

9 centres and then resettlement of citizens, according to the operative

10 findings of Sanski Most SJB, about 3.000 persons have moved away from the

11 municipality since the beginning of the armed conflicts. Mainly women,

12 children, old people. Up to the 16th of August, 1992, about 12.000

13 persons, mainly of Muslim, partially of Croatian ethnicity applied to

14 Sanski Most to unregister their place of residence. In the preliminary

15 procedure before the competent service, these persons declared they wished

16 to leave the municipality in order to resettle, gave statements that they

17 would either sell or give away their real estate, their movable and

18 immovable assets, and put their movable property down on a list for

19 transport.

20 Again, does this to some extent accord with the information you

21 were getting at this meeting three days afterwards?

22 A. Yes. Again, in terms of numbers, the one number they give me on

23 Sanski Most was 11.000. The number on this paragraph is 12.000. Again,

24 my reading of it would be the 11.000 was a subset of that 12.000.

25 Q. And then just very briefly, if you turn over to the next page, 8,

1 again the reception centres in the municipality of Bosanski Novi,

2 according to the second paragraph, on the 2nd of June, 1992, members of

3 the army brought in citizens of Muslim ethnicity to the Mlakve stadium for

4 their own protection. On this occasion, those brought in were not

5 recorded but according to the SJB, about 300 persons. 5th of June set

6 free, and then again on the 11th of June, members of the army from the

7 area of the municipality quartered and provided security for 652 men of

8 Muslim ethnicity fit for military service. So again, Mr. Kirudja, does

9 that accord with all these reports you'd been getting about the football

10 stadium?

11 A. I seek clarification. I always refer to that as the football

12 field. It's the first time I see a local name for it. I assume Mlakve is

13 the name. I've never seen this document before. I assume it is the

14 football field, correct?

15 Q. I think I'm entitled to say you're right in that assumption?

16 A. Right. Since I've always referred to as the football field, the

17 numbers in that paragraph do tally in one respect. You see they are

18 talking about 300 persons there plus a few others. The Danish report that

19 you cited earlier counted through their binoculars and gave an estimate of

20 350 people in the field. So those numbers are roughly speaking in the

21 same ballpark figure.

22 Q. Right. And then again, resettlement of citizens, if you look,

23 please, at the top of page 9, 13th -- 12th and 13th of May, 500 moved out,

24 3.500 citizens of Muslim ethnicity left on the 9th of June in the

25 direction of Doboj. Now that would appear to accord with your 5.000 who

1 went but it's considerably more. And then we see pursuant to the decision

2 on the voluntary resettlement of citizens of the government of the

3 Autonomous Region of Krajina, and the order of the Crisis Staff of

4 Bosanski Novi on the criteria for voluntary resettlement, 5.680 persons

5 with proper documents left the municipality on the 23rd of July, 1992, and

6 emigrated with the assistance of UNPROFOR, and the UNHCR. Now, from what

7 you tell us, that's a considerable underestimate?

8 A. Yes, but with one understanding, even at the beginning, they too

9 talked about 5.000, and on these documents, 5.680 but when they actually

10 tried to effect this evacuation, you wouldn't be surprised that the convoy

11 was joined by various groups en route and swelled the numbers to 9.000.

12 It wouldn't be correct to read all of them from Bosanski Novi at that

13 point.

14 Q. Right. Yes, thank you. And then finally, please, could you look

15 at one last document from Prijedor, Exhibit P1379?

16 A. What page?

17 Q. Yes. We just look, please, at page 2 of that document, which is

18 undated -- no, I'm sorry, it isn't. 23rd of October, 1992, where

19 according to estimates, this is about a third of the way down, after the

20 villages which have been destroyed, according to estimates, roughly 38.000

21 Muslim and Croat citizens have left the municipality of Prijedor so far.

22 Did the flow of refugees continue after these dates in August that

23 we'd been looking at?

24 A. You mean after the 9.000 left?

25 Q. I'm talking -- no. There is a meeting on the 19th of August where

1 you're being asked to give assistance?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the UN is saying no, we won't, but did refugees continue to

4 pass through your sector?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then just this part, if you look at the top of page 3, as time

7 goes by, one can feel that both the official authorities and citizens

8 themselves are relaxing under the impression that with the departure of

9 the Muslims and Croats, everything has been accomplished.

10 From your discussions with the mayors that you were dealing with,

11 the Serb mayors, what impression did you get of their attitude towards

12 getting rid of the Muslims and Croats?

13 A. Now, in an overall impression.

14 Q. Yes?

15 A. I had developed the perception from them that the enormity of

16 their action was something they were either deliberately understating or

17 actually didn't see it that way. They did not really see the enormity of

18 it. And I have used elsewhere the word there seemed to be a measure of

19 "naivete" involved in it, but incongruously related to a meticulous

20 approach and a determination to accomplish it on the other hand. So no

21 matter what we said, they were going to achieve this. It was more like

22 somebody was -- an example Dvor, the first mayor says one thing, he is

23 removed by June, his deputy comes up and is almost like a repeating

24 verbatim what the previous mayor was saying. Then you go to Bosanski

25 Novi. You hear identical language, almost like they are all reading from

1 a script. It doesn't matter that they were meeting people like me and my

2 colleagues from outside the area and saying to them, this thing is -- I'm

3 looking for the good word. This thing has enormous implication for what

4 you are doing. They discounted that.

5 Q. Thank you. All right. Thank you. That document can go.

6 There was just one thing again I'm afraid I missed before the 19th

7 of August. For this I think you'll need to check your diary.

8 On the 12th of August, did you have yet another meeting with

9 the -- Mr. Pasic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did he want you to take out more non-Serbs?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was there also present somebody called Mr. Deganovic?

14 A. Yes, he was SDS representative from Bosanska Kostajnica.

15 Q. Was there another SDS representative from Kostajnica?

16 A. Bosanski side of Kostajnica.

17 Q. And also was there a representative of the Muslims?

18 A. Yes. There was Mr. Saflic, Murid Saflic, representative of the

19 Muslims wishing to leave.

20 Q. Did Mr. Deganovic, in fact, tell you, the SDS man, about the 5.000

21 people?

22 A. My original text has an extra zero in error for the numbers with

23 regard to Bosanska Kostajnica. It's not 5.000, it's 500 so he did and

24 there were 164 families which translates to roughly to 500 persons.

25 Q. All right. And did he say anything else about that? About why

1 they wanted to leave?

2 A. Yes. The language again was typical, like the other two Muslims

3 on the other side, on the other meetings we alluded to, the majority want

4 to move to Western Europe, to join relatives. First afraid to move but

5 after the Bosanski Novi movement, they now came out wishing to move, in

6 short the news that the Muslims had left Bosanski Novi triggered the wish

7 of these other people to leave from Bosanska Kostajnica.

8 Q. Now, did Mr. Pasic also tell you something about Bosanska Krupa?

9 A. Who? Did who tell me what?

10 Q. Mr. Pasic. I tell you what, it may be an error. Can you tell us

11 if anything was said about Krupa?

12 A. Just a minute. Yeah. Mr. Pasic began his address to me,

13 referring to a delegation from Sanski Most, Bosanska Krupa, and Prijedor

14 to our civil police. That is the UN civil police. They had already

15 approached them. And he went on to make a number of points. Do you want

16 me to list them now? Because they are found in some meetings.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes, please.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime I need to leave the courtroom for a

19 minute.

20 --- Break taken at 12.03 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

23 MS. KORNER: Oh, we lost somebody.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to wait for Judge Taya because it seems that

25 I triggered -- the courtroom is -- they need to reinstall the heating or

1 reactivate it. It's out of order today.

2 MS. KORNER: I'm afraid that Ms. Gustin was also complaining about

3 it but I was saying it's okay. At least everybody stays awake.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, sorry about that, Ms. Korner.

5 MS. KORNER:

6 Q. Mr. Kirudja, you were just about to tell us, you said Mr. Pasic

7 set out a number of things. Could you just tell us what he said?

8 A. Yes. There are four elements noted in a full page and I will

9 start with the first one. He began by summarising that before the war,

10 there lived Muslims and Serbs lived in Bosanska Krupa in the proportions

11 of 30 per cent Serbs, 70 per cent Muslims. Now Serbs moved to the left

12 bank of the Una and Muslims to the right.

13 2. In terms of bullets, the reasons for Muslims leaving Bosanska

14 Krupa, he gave them as, first, Serbs didn't want to conquer Muslim land

15 for the Serbian Republic of BH. He asked that the message be conveyed

16 that Serbs don't want to conquer Cazin region. This is the typical

17 language of what we call Bihac pocket, Cazin region. He appealed for

18 Muslims to find a peaceful solution by dividing the land. The world, he

19 claimed, does not understand why Muslims want to leave voluntarily. It is

20 because of economic and political reasons. Muslim position is

21 economically weaker than Serbs because their livelihood was based on

22 trade. Muslims also quote, "Are puppets of the SDA." And they have

23 realised they were cheated by their political leaders. They realised that

24 it is now impossible to live side by side with the Serbs. The political

25 defeat is also linked with their military defeat, meaning Muslims,

1 military defeat.

2 Due to these two factors, it is obvious that Muslims were not

3 secure. It's obvious that the Muslims did not accept their obligations.

4 The constitution of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina gives some

5 rights and obligations to all citizens. One obligation is to defend their

6 country, and Muslims would not fulfil this obligation and won't defend

7 their country.

8 If the Serbian side is not respected, there could be massive

9 deaths on both sides. If we are left to resolve this matter by ourselves,

10 we will resolve the matter very quickly.

11 For example, there are 7.000 Serb refugees from Croatia in

12 Bosanski Novi. The world did not condemn their plight.

13 Q. When he said to you, "If we are left to resolve the matter by

14 ourselves, we will resolve it very quickly," what did you understand him

15 to mean?

16 A. Actually, I didn't go or delve into the details on that. What I

17 understood and the reason I didn't delve in it, I explained this morning,

18 and it coupled with the last sentence I read, there are 7.000 Serbs

19 settled here. We can do did ourselves and we'll go about doing it the way

20 we have done it before. That's what I understood.

21 Q. All right. Now, I think there were discussions during the meeting

22 about the situation in Bosanska Kostajnica but I just want to deal with

23 this: Did the mayor of Dvor say something about the evacuation of the

24 persons from Bosanski Novi?

25 A. Yes. I note here -- just one paragraph, and it says, from the

1 mayor of Dvor, "We went through hell during the last evacuation. We are

2 not prepared to let refugees pass through Dvor again. Now we have to

3 decide what to do with the Muslims, Serbs, one alternative is to leave

4 them in their destiny. Repeat. I hope the refugees will not cross into

5 Dvor."

6 Q. You say he said now we have to decide what to do with the Muslims,

7 Serbs?

8 A. Well, it was a shortcut for me to say what we as Serbs are going

9 to do with the Muslims, the relationship, Muslim-Serb relationship.

10 Q. All right. And did the Muslim representatives say anything after

11 that?

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. What did he say?

14 A. He began to say that, to refer to the role of the international

15 community.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. He referred to them being in a war situation, meaning the Muslims,

18 and that this is a war between the three nationalities in Bosnia, and

19 referring to fear of reprisals each time Serbs are killed in the

20 confrontation line. Serbs have helped prevent such reprisals. This is an

21 allusion to -- he was very careful to always give certain deference to the

22 Serbs to appear not to criticise, at least in our presence.

23 Q. Right.

24 A. Today's movement of population should not be considered as ethnic

25 cleansing. He actually did want to make us understand, oh, we are not

1 calling it ethnic cleansing but a few minutes before, he had called it a

2 conflict of ethnic people and that each time the Serbs are killed in the

3 confrontation line, we fear for our life. So there was this mixed

4 messages he was trying to send to us.

5 Q. All right. Thank you, now I don't think anything else on that

6 meeting but I'd like you just in respect of what you were told about

7 Krupa, to have a look again at a report that was prepared by the Serbs,

8 the municipal assembly.

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that's not yet been exhibited but it's

10 disclosure number 2.58. And it was on the list, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Do I take it that this will be 1649?

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour does, yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you.

14 MS. KORNER:

15 Q. Could you turn to page 5, please, Mr. Kirudja, in this document?

16 And if we look at the third paragraph on that page, "The War Presidency

17 made an assessment of the situation and took the only feasible and

18 appropriate decision at the time regarding the Muslim population that

19 remained in enclaves in the Serbian territory on the right bank of the

20 Una. First came the decision on the surrender of arms in all Muslim areas

21 in order to free some of the units of the Serbian Territorial Defence

22 which were maintaining a blockade of Muslim villages. This decision was

23 very poorly implemented. No agreement was reached in the Ostruznica and

24 Bodic area. The weak response or total disregard of Muslims to the call

25 for surrender of arms and Alija's threat that Krupa must become green

1 whatever the cost forced the War Presidency of the Serbian municipality to

2 offer the Muslims two options: They could organise themselves and with

3 our guarantees and full protection move out to the destination of their

4 transfer, or this would be done by military means. All Muslim villages in

5 the central regions accepted the temporary transfer provided they could

6 take along all their movable property. The Muslim areas of Ostruznica,

7 Bodic, and on the right bank of the Una the areas of Otoka and Crkvina

8 were an exception and had to be dealt with militarily. You are all well

9 aware of the outcome and manner in which this was carried out. The war

10 chronicle of Krupa will treat this topic in more detail.

11 The main reasons for adopting the decision on the temporary

12 transfer of the populations were the physical safety of the Muslim people

13 and the historically proven and confirmed nobility and kindness of Serbs

14 who do not have a propensity for crimes and genocide. Circumstances at

15 the time in which diplomacy still prevailed and there was still a flicker

16 of hope the problems with Muslims and Croats or more precisely with the

17 mujahedin and Ustashas could be resolved through negotiations and so on

18 and so forth. Now, was there any suggestion in what were you being told

19 by Mr. Pasic that this -- there had been a threat of military action if

20 the Muslims didn't move?

21 A. Mr. Pasic put it in a summary conclusion in our discussion. Both

22 in the last meeting I referred to and the first one I met when I was

23 probing him about the voluntary nature. He simply put it this way: The

24 Muslims are operating from a military weakness. The converse of that

25 statement is we are militarily stronger than they are.

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

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18

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25

1 Q. Yes. Thank you. You can put that document away.

2 Now, can we look, please, at the next situation report you

3 produced in September, which is -- was document 38 -- is document 38.

4 It's already -- I'm told it's P1679 already in fact. So it's already been

5 exhibited.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour I can say I will very definitely finish

7 today, probably a bit earlier than --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.

9 MS. KORNER:

10 Q. Now, this was a special sit-rep that we can see, Mr. Kirudja,

11 which in fact the first paragraph says is an addendum to the presumably

12 the normal sit-rep and is entirely devoted to issues around the border

13 which remains a continuing source of pressure for the sector.

14 And apparently there had been a visit to that sector by General

15 Nambiar and Mr. Thornberry to Topusko, that's correct, isn't it?

16 A. Also Mr. Goulding.

17 Q. And Mr. Goulding.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mr. Goulding being whom?

20 A. He was the head of the United Nations peacekeeping operations at

21 that time.

22 Q. And you divide the border, as you've explained to us on a number

23 of occasions, B, being the second segment separates the Bosnian opstinas

24 of Novi, Dubica from the Krajina opstinas of Dvor and Kostajnica. Both

25 sides of the border are controlled by Serbs of respectively the Republic

1 of Serbian BH and the Republic of Serbian Krajina, which is thus a nominal

2 international border segment. Just dealing briefly with that, did there

3 appear to be any real division between the RSK and the other side of the

4 border in Bosnia?

5 A. None. That was something we repeated over to try to underscore

6 there was none.

7 Q. Now, if we can, I think leave the first few paragraphs and go to

8 what you describe in paragraph 9 as the all-Serbian border segment? The

9 second border segment separates two territories controlled by Serbs within

10 the DanBat area of operation and then you list again the five Bosnian

11 opstinas of Novi, Sanski Most, Prijedor, Banja Luka and Bosanska Dubica

12 within which the phenomenon of ethnic cleansing has been noted. So by

13 this stage, September, you're using that expression, ethnic cleansing?

14 A. It became clear, loud and clear. There was no need to beat

15 around. This was a cleansing of the area.

16 Q. Then you deal with the crossings and at the bottom of that

17 paragraph 9, through the border also pass a traffic of commercial trucks

18 to from Belgrade through the Serbian corridor opened in July with the

19 support of the TDF troops, militia from Krajina, commanded by Milan

20 Martic, now General Martic. And then in paragraph 10, along this border

21 segment, refugees attempt en masse to cross to Sector North to Karlovac or

22 other destinations in Europe. A stream of individuals arrives daily at

23 Dvor via Novi from Prijedor and Sanski Most seeking refuge. UN CIVPOL

24 estimates that between 30 and 50 such persons per day cross the border

25 into Dvor. The trend during the last few weeks suggests an increase in

1 the number of individuals that enter the sector seeking protection and

2 assistance. And then you explain the problems this is causing to the

3 police, the DanBat forces, and the local authorities don't appear to want

4 to assume responsibility.

5 Paragraph 11, the continuing flow of refugees is a destabilising

6 factor in the area and you set out what the obvious reasons are.

7 The number of refugees and displaced persons, the number of

8 refugees and displaced persons passing through the sector continues to

9 increase, the last transit of 7.000 refugees organised by UNHCR was on

10 July the 22nd. Is that again the Novi or is it a different one?

11 A. This is a mistake. It should have been 9.000.

12 Q. Subsequently a policy decision was adopted to the effect that the

13 UN will not participate in any organised convoys rooted in the practice of

14 ethnic cleansing. Nevertheless it is estimated that there may be more

15 than 30.000 persons from flash points in the area within the second

16 segment of the border as described above. If that number were to be

17 transferred it is estimated that up to 200.000 persons are at risk and may

18 have to be similarly evacuated.

19 And then you talk about a coordination meeting discussing how to

20 prevent this but you state at the bottom of the paragraph, essentially

21 this was not a humanitarian but a political issue. And then talk about

22 contingency matters.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour I'm going to move to the last two

24 documents so perhaps it would be convenient to have the break now.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll have a 25 minute break and resume

1 soon after. Thank you.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

5 MS. KORNER: I do feel they've put the heating on at full blast,

6 Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

8 MS. KORNER:

9 Q. Mr. Kirudja, could you be shown now please what was your document

10 41?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: This will become --

12 MS. KORNER: That's not it.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: This will become 1650, Ms. Korner.

14 MS. KORNER: Yes but he's been given the wrong document.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me see.

16 MS. KORNER: The front should look like this.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 41?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: 41.

19 MS. KORNER: I'm told by Ms. Gustin it will be P1684.

20 Q. Mr. Kirudja, that is another one of your, as we can see, a

21 sit-rep, addressed to Mr. Thornberry, and did it go to Mr. Andreev again?

22 A. I beg your pardon.

23 Q. We can see it's addressed to Mr. Thornberry, but then under -- on

24 the front page does it say info?

25 A. Yes, it is for information purposes to Victor Andreev and Jenny

1 Pearson [phoen]. These were my counterparts in Sector South, Knin and in

2 Belgrade at that time.

3 Q. Right. If we go then to the first page, you refer to the sit-rep

4 immediate preceding it and then says this sit-rep continues the focus on

5 issues around the border previously reported in the addendum to the

6 sit-rep number 5 which we just looked at. Again you divide up the border

7 and then in paragraph 4, increasingly desperate and numerous refugees from

8 Serbian controlled Northern Bosnia have been left with no choice but to

9 flee northwards into the UNPA. In the last four and a half days, more

10 than 300 refugees were under DanBat protection in Dvor and 17 in

11 Kostajnica. Then you deal with the rest. The Muslim refugees in the UNPA

12 unfortunately find that they have moved from one hostile Serb controlled

13 territory to another. They have to remain in transit through the UNPA

14 even for a couple of days. Then you deal with the resistance of the

15 Croatian authorities and in paragraph 5, the Muslims in recent weeks

16 having resorted to bold and clandestine attempts to break out of the

17 complete blockade. I want to go, please, straight to the fourth page

18 where you deal with what's called the Serbian alliance in Krajina and

19 Bosnia on which aspect you touched just before the break.

20 Paragraph 11. As we have stated in the preceding sit-reps a

21 nominal international border divides the Serb controlled opstinas of Dvor

22 and Kostajnica in Krajina from the Serb controlled opstinas of Novi and

23 Dubica across the River Una. Beyond these two or three other opstinas,

24 Prijedor, Sanski Most and Banja Luka, in Northern Bosnia, which fall under

25 the so-called Republic of Serbian Bosnia-Herzegovina. The two Serbian

1 republics, economically depend on a corridor linking them with Serbia and

2 Montenegro. There is also a growing evidence of a common military

3 strategy or alliance in this regard. And observing the military structure

4 on the ground, there are signs that Banja Luka may be exercising a balance

5 of military power over Knin in a way analogous to the power exercised by

6 Belgrade prior to the proclamation of a new federal Yugoslavia. The

7 present supreme military commander in Knin is --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Reportedly.

9 MS. KORNER:

10 Q. Reportedly from Banja Luka while the previous one is said to be

11 shuttling between the two capitals. Further, we have noticed the tendency

12 of certain local authorities here to periodically retreat to Banja Luka or

13 Belgrade at critical times.

14 Now, can we deal -- split that. The military signs that there was

15 control being exercised or -- I'm sorry the balance of military power from

16 Banja Luka, where were you getting that information from?

17 A. This sentence following that actually contains the answer to your

18 question. We were tracing who was commanding, where they were going, and

19 that basically.

20 Q. All right. Now, as to the tendency of certain local authorities

21 here to periodically retreat to Banja Luka or Belgrade at critical times,

22 in your dealings with the political authorities, the local ones, did you

23 get any impression that they were -- as to what their powers were to take

24 decisions?

25 A. I can speak directly with regard to the sector, because I was in

1 daily arms length relationship with them. Every opstina that was part of

2 that sector had two inter-weaved power structure, the military side and

3 the civil side. The military side we have spoken at length. On the civil

4 side, there were mayors, the so-called mayors of opstina A, B or C, who

5 also had the police, the chief of police for opstina A, B or C. This

6 group had the least influence in a way. They were on the other hand the

7 most heard about political issues like we won't live together with the

8 Serbs -- with the other non-Serbs. They were the most expressive when it

9 comes to what was going on, even militarily, explaining it out, the

10 military side normally didn't give -- were not given to giving speeches.

11 So much of the political drive, most of the explanation was coming from

12 the civil side of the structure. Most of the action on the other hand was

13 taking place on the military side.

14 Q. You say they had a tendency to retreat to Banja Luka. To do

15 what? Or Belgrade.

16 A. You have to think of -- again I was speaking about mayors and

17 other people located in the sector. They were surrounded on the

18 confrontation line by the Croats, in the direction of Karlovac, Sisak and

19 Zagreb. Another way of putting it too, they were also blockaded

20 themselves. We didn't mention that, the Serbs, were blockaded in that

21 sense, economically they can't go out and they couldn't get their fuel

22 for example. They couldn't get most normal things, because of the war

23 the electricity was not working, because things had been broken up --

24 broken down and without the political -- the grid, electrical grid, normal

25 things weren't working like water because they were all pumped. So in a

1 way, there was a situation of shortages even for the Serbs. So for them

2 to redress that they had to get out somehow and that's the corridor that

3 took them to Banja Luka or Belgrade for the purposes of redressing

4 shortages in normal, every day economic life.

5 Q. In dealing with the mayors of these local areas, such as Novi,

6 Kostajnica, Dvor, did they ever say to you or did you ever get the

7 impression that they had to take instructions from their superiors?

8 A. The fact that they all seemed to replicate each other in the same

9 language was a very good indication that, if you think of it like a choir,

10 they were all singing from a sheet that was passed around.

11 Q. Right. And, sorry? Can you just --

12 A. And there was very little situations where they would deviate from

13 that, from that -- whatever was politically correct, and we can go into

14 the details of that. You could find hardly anybody who would deviate from

15 that.

16 Q. Right. And that led you to believe what? I'm sorry to have you

17 ask you this but we need to have it stated clearly for the terms of the

18 transcript.

19 A. If there were the Serbs inside the sector, that script, that

20 choreography pointed at Knin as a centre of coordination of authority.

21 Q. Right.

22 A. If you are in the Bihac areas we mentioned, outside the Bihac

23 pocket, then I mentioned point us to Banja Luka but mostly Belgrade.

24 Q. Thank you. All right. Then in paragraph 12, as noted by Lord

25 Owen and Mr. Cyrus Vance during their recent visit to Banja Luka, the

1 practice of ethnic cleansing appears to continue unabated.

2 Had you actually spoken to Lord Owen and Mr. Vance?

3 A. Yes. I had the opportunity of spending almost a day and a half

4 with these two gentlemen, as we met in Maslenica and drove for the trip

5 seven or eight hours. They spent the evening with us in Topusko. We

6 debriefed them. We chatted and basically had enough time to speak to both

7 of them.

8 Q. All right. Then the remainder of this report lists the various

9 refugees who have arrived, and then if you go to the next page, the

10 humanitarian agencies, in paragraph 17, you state, given the present

11 situation, it seems entirely reasonable to establish at least one UNHCR

12 office in Dvor and another in Prijedor. This would make it possible to

13 coordinate the necessary preventive action in Bosnia, in the triangle

14 Prijedor-Bosanski Novi-Kostajnica-Dubica and assist or advise the refugees

15 who attempt daily to cross the border into the UNPA. And I don't think we

16 need trouble with the rest of this report. Thank you. I think we said

17 that was going to be 1684. Yeah.

18 And then the final document, please, that I would like to you look

19 at is document number 44.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And this will become?

21 MS. KORNER: 1685, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

23 MS. KORNER:

24 Q. I'm afraid it's not a particularly clear copy. I think is it

25 dated December, possibly the 2nd of December, 1992?

1 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Yes, that's what it looks

2 like in my copy. 02.

3 THE WITNESS: Yes.

4 MS. KORNER:

5 Q. And it's from you, isn't it, Mr. Kirudja? We can just make that

6 out, from C. Kirudja, Sector North, to Mr. Thornberry. The subject a

7 group of 600 to 800 refugees from Trnopolje, message, our brief telephone

8 conversation on the above-mentioned subject, information was relayed to us

9 from UNHCR in Banja Luka to the effect that 600 to 800 refugees from

10 Trnopolje are headed for Bosanski Novi with the intention of crossing into

11 Sector North. They are?

12 A. Part of a group.

13 Q. Part of a group, about 3.000 allegedly detained in Trnopolje and

14 is it partially evacuated?

15 A. M'hm.

16 Q. By the ICRC to Croatia a couple of weeks ago. And heaven only

17 knows what the rest of this says, something about Dvor?

18 A. The situation in Dvor where the refugees intent.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: To enter.

20 MS. KORNER:

21 Q. Intend to come, remains, is that remains hostile to Muslim

22 refugees?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And then?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: UNPROFOR units get the idea?

1 A. Right.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour's copy must be much better.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: No it's not good, it's not at all. I mean -- I

4 would suggest that you let the witness himself try and decipher it.

5 Probably he's in a better condition than all of us put together. If you

6 can read it out, Mr. --

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, UNPROFOR units are not in a condition to

8 accommodate them in such numbers, nor guarantee them all the necessary

9 security measures.

10 MS. KORNER:

11 Q. Prolong the stay?

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. I think this is really isn't it, I think we perhaps, this is the

14 nuts and bolts of how to deal with this?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Right?

17 A. And it is because of the reason why you can't read it, it was

18 typed on a teletype as opposed to the normal typewriter written reports

19 that you read.

20 Q. Right. Just this on this document, were you aware that or had

21 anybody informed you that they were closing this camp at Trnopolje and

22 this was the last of the --

23 A. This is one of the last ones named in the list of what I call

24 concentration camps, and they had come one night, one evening, in a very

25 stressful conditions and they were being shuttled between Dvor and -- Dvor

1 and Kostajnica areas where the Danish contingency were. So I was in touch

2 with the UNHCR all that evening trying to ensure that they were eventually

3 allowed to cross out, and it was very tense because as they were loaded in

4 trucks, Danish trucks, to try to contain the situation, there was also

5 Serbian authorities trying to collect them in their own holding places.

6 So we had an all night of cat and mouse games with -- wherein we didn't

7 want to release them. We wanted them out.

8 Q. Can you now recall whether this was a mixed group, in other words

9 men, women and children, or --

10 A. The circumstances were such that we were not in a position to deal

11 with them that way. Once they were put there, it was at night, it was

12 raining, I remember, and it was very difficult to deal with the situation

13 other than make sure that they crossed safely.

14 Q. Right.

15 MS. KORNER: Mr. Kirudja, thank you very much indeed. That's all

16 that I ask you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Kirudja, you are now going to face

18 Mr. Ackerman, who will be cross-examining you. Mr. Ackerman is the lead

19 counsel for Radoslav Brdjanin.

20 Mr. Ackerman, do you prefer to come forward or to stay where you

21 are?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: I will come up there.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Do you need any help, Mr. Ackerman?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: No.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:

1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kirudja.

2 A. Good afternoon, counsel.

3 Q. We've got about 25 minutes. We'll work through as much of this as

4 we can, and continue tomorrow.

5 You began your testimony on Monday with questions about the state

6 of mind that you had when you first were assigned to this mission in

7 former Yugoslavia and Croatia, specifically you were asked about whether

8 you went there with any preconceived notions, any biases anything of that

9 nature. Do you recall that?

10 A. I recall the question.

11 Q. And my recollection is that you basically said that absolutely

12 not, you went there with a completely open mind, that you didn't know

13 anything about what was going on, you basically didn't know the difference

14 between Serbs and Croats and Muslims and Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats

15 and all of those things?

16 A. Essentially I replied to that effect.

17 Q. There came a time rather quickly though, after you had arrived in

18 Sector North, that you did form a bias, didn't you?

19 A. Example?

20 Q. We'll have several. The question is: Did you?

21 A. I don't know what you're talking about.

22 Q. Did you become biased shortly after arriving at Sector North? Did

23 you become very pro-Muslim, anti-Serb?

24 A. No.

25 Q. All right. I have a little -- a couple of loose ends I want to

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1 clear up and one of them is this: On Monday, you mentioned that the

2 French and the Finnish battalions of UNPROFOR were initially located in

3 Banja Luka?

4 MS. KORNER: Can I ask Mr. Ackerman to provide the references on

5 the transcript when he's referring to what was said?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner is correct, Mr. Ackerman, but it's

7 not the first time that Mr. Ackerman comes forward and says I'm afraid I

8 don't have it here.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I have it.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You have it?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: I have not referred to any particular part of the

12 transcript in his particular language yet but I'm about to.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

14 MR. ACKERMAN:

15 Q. You said --

16 MS. KORNER: It I have the page, please?

17 MR. ACKERMAN: 17, line 25. I haven't got to the question yet.

18 If you just kind of be patient, Ms. Korner, I'll get there with you, I

19 promise.

20 MS. KORNER: I thought the words "you said" meant you were about

21 to repeat what he had said.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

23 MR. ACKERMAN:

24 Q. Line 17, page 17, line 25, with regard to the French and Finnish

25 battalions of UNPROFOR, you said they soon found out it wasn't feasible

1 for them to be there, referring to Banja Luka.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know why it was that it was not feasible for them to be in

4 Banja Luka?

5 A. I believe this question was in context about the assumption we had

6 operated from, if you remember the question. And I mentioned as an

7 example we had intended to have a headquarters in Sarajevo for the mission

8 in its entirety and for the -- for the mission to be supplied by these

9 logistics battalion from that area, Banja Luka, and I added that

10 assumption came clearly wasn't going to be the way it was. It was

11 assumed.

12 Q. And that was because logistics could not be supplied from the

13 Banja Luka area, it's just not practical? Is that what you're saying?

14 A. I only mentioned that for a number of considerations, that was not

15 to be the case and they were moved from there.

16 Q. Can you be more specific about what it was that made their

17 presence in Banja Luka?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Not feasible to the --

20 A. No, I can't be more specific about it.

21 Q. I'm changing subjects now. A different issue completely. You

22 talked during your testimony, and we are essentially Ms. Korner on page

23 27, you talked during your testimony about several refugees, Muslim

24 people, who were located at the football field in Karlovac and who wanted

25 to cross through Sector North and go to Bihac.

1 A. Yes, I recall that.

2 Q. Did these people ever tell you why it was they wanted to go to

3 Bihac?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what was that? What did they tell you why they wanted to go

6 there?

7 A. Give me the date and I'll tell you what they told me. Please

8 remind me of the date again -- I believe I didn't give you that but I'll

9 give it again. If you give me the date.

10 Q. I'm going to try.

11 MS. KORNER: It's the 29th of --

12 A. 29th? Of April?

13 MS. KORNER: Yes.

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I gave you the response of General Ninkovic

15 about it, what he said. Now I'll tell you. These were people who wanted

16 to cross over from Karlovac, through Sector North, into Bihac pocket.

17 MR. ACKERMAN:

18 Q. Yes?

19 A. They said that's where they come from, that is their origin and

20 they have families and relatives there and they want to go and look for

21 themselves what is going on.

22 Q. Did you ever learn that they -- from any source, that they had

23 been undergoing military training in Croatia and were trying to return to

24 Bihac to join the battle on the Muslim side of the conflict?

25 A. The first source to indicate that was General Ninkovic himself.

1 Q. Okay. Did you have any sense of where they were coming from?

2 A. They were coming -- a number of vehicles. They had been driving

3 that were gathered in there. Some had number plates that were Croats,

4 some were Austrian, I'm not sure another, but there were some licence

5 plates which were Austrian.

6 Q. Did you conclude from that that these were people who might have

7 been previously living and working in places like Austria and Croatia and

8 had then become part of a training programme to return to Bihac and join

9 the fighting?

10 A. Only partly to your question I could discern they were living and

11 working outside of Bosnia. That much I could discern because they also

12 said so. The second part of your question, whether or not somebody had

13 trained them militarily, there was nothing in the football field situation

14 that would make me conclude that.

15 Q. I think you did tell us on Monday that they were virtually all

16 military age males?

17 A. In fact that's what the counsel for the Prosecution asked me,

18 whether they looked like trained people and I responded the only thing you

19 can see is that they are mostly males and they are in good health.

20 Q. It's hard to tell how somebody looks if they have been militarily

21 trained, isn't it?

22 A. Sometimes you can but not always, sometimes if you got what we

23 call a military crew cut and the other things, there are some signs but I

24 didn't see any.

25 Q. Okay. You had a meeting on the 26th of May of 1992 with the mayor

1 of Dvor, and you might want to look at your diary on that date.

2 A. I beg your pardon, the date again?

3 Q. 26 May of 1992.

4 A. 26 May. Mayor of Dvor?

5 Q. Yeah, the mayor of Dvor?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the conversation was about 5.000 persons who wanted to leave

8 Bosanski Novi?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. And what the mayor was telling you was that they wanted safe

11 passage through Sector North for these 5.000 people who were transiting to

12 I believe he told you primarily Austria and Germany?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And were you told also, I believe, that these were people who had

15 relatives and friends in Austria and Germany who were prepared to

16 accommodate them there?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And you were told that they wanted to depart and that they were

19 leaving voluntarily?

20 A. On the 26th, there was -- yes, the element that they were leaving

21 voluntarily and they were going to those two places, that was communicated

22 to me, yes.

23 Q. The second request that was made at that time was that you provide

24 an international film crew to film the transit of these people across the

25 Serb-controlled area, specifically to document that they passed through

1 safely?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And did not remain in the Serb-controlled areas?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And I think you told us you were uncomfortable with that

6 proposition and that in your mind something about this was not right, yes?

7 A. At that point, in summary, yes.

8 Q. If we contrast that with these -- this group of Muslims there in

9 that football stadium at Karlovac who seemed willing to leave there and go

10 to Bihac in the middle of an area that was under stress, fighting, were

11 you uncomfortable with this trying to assist them in any way to make the

12 journey in the other direction?

13 A. The comparison you assume is the same. You want me to compare

14 the two and I can't. For one thing in the case of the Muslims, in my

15 meeting, there were no Muslims. I'm talking to Serbs. In the case of the

16 football field in Karlovac, I'm not talking with an intermediary, I'm

17 talking to them.

18 Q. So were you talking directly with these people at the --

19 A. Football field.

20 Q. Karlovac football field?

21 A. Right. I was in the football field, among them.

22 Q. With regard to the group from Dvor, from Novi, when you were

23 talking to the mayor of Dvor, you asked the mayor, did you not, where this

24 group was coming from?

25 A. Correct.

1 Q. And you were told that they were coming from their homes

2 basically. Yes?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And I think you told us or maybe it's in that document, that you

5 were concerned because, as you said, how do people voluntarily leave the

6 comfort of their homes and go to far away places? That didn't seem to add

7 up?

8 A. I was summarising the conclusion we reached, not how we got

9 there. He also told me a number of things that we discussed.

10 Q. But that was a concern of yours, how do people voluntarily leave

11 the comfort of their homes?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And go to far away places?

14 A. After hearing a number of things from a person purportedly

15 speaking, he -- reporting his counterpart about a group, they don't

16 represent.

17 Q. And what made you suspicious, though, was the proposition that

18 people were voluntarily leaving the comfort of their homes to go to far

19 away places?

20 A. It's something --

21 Q. Just didn't buy that, did you?

22 A. I didn't buy that but I also said why. I also prefaced that by

23 saying I asked the mayor to explain me, and I prefaced that with a

24 statement, the mayor you speak convincingly about matters, and I tend to

25 understand it when you speak for the Serbs. You are now switching that,

1 you are speaking for the Muslims in a manner that doesn't add up.

2 Q. These people from Bosanski Novi were people who were living in a

3 place, as you've already told us, which had no electricity for large parts

4 of the time. Did you know that?

5 A. I never said they were living in a place with no electricity in

6 Bosanski Novi.

7 Q. Do you know that Bosanski Novi had no electricity, significant

8 parts of the time?

9 A. You're telling me now they had no electricity?

10 Q. You were telling us just a moment ago about the shortages of

11 electricity?

12 A. In Sector North.

13 Q. Throughout the whole area?

14 A. No, in Sector North.

15 Q. We'll come to that. Do you know that they were living where there

16 were severe food and medicine shortages?

17 A. Is that your statement to me?

18 Q. I'm asking you did you know?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you know that they were people who may have been liable for

21 conscription into military service?

22 A. I was already told that by the mayor of Dvor, that they tried --

23 they wouldn't and they wouldn't fight.

24 Q. Did you know that these were people living just across the border

25 from a war zone who may have had a reasonable belief that the war could

1 cross the border and reach --

2 A. I'll break that question. Across the border war zone, which side

3 of the border are you referring to as a war zone?

4 Q. Well, you were there, because the place you went had been a war

5 zone that secretary Vance had interceded in and managed to achieve --

6 A. Precisely I went in to tell you the war zone was on the side which

7 was Croatian territory occupied by the Serbs. Bosanski Novi on the other

8 side, when we arrived, it wasn't a war zone.

9 Q. But my question was this: They were living, the people in

10 Bosanski Novi, were living just across the border from a war zone?

11 A. Ah, that's different.

12 Q. Or a previous war zone?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And might have been, probably had, a reasonable belief and concern

15 that that war could expand across the border?

16 A. I don't know that.

17 Q. You do know that in a war zone, civilians always suffer, don't

18 you?

19 A. We have seen a good example of that.

20 Q. Do you think it would be fair to say that these people in that

21 situation at that time in that place were very unlikely to have been

22 people finding much comfort in their homes during these times?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. You told us at the beginning of your testimony Monday, just as a

25 general proposition, we talked about it just a moment ago, that you knew

1 virtually nothing about the situation. The question, as you went there.

2 The question I want to ask you is: Were you briefed at all?

3 A. About what?

4 Q. I'm coming there, just give me a minute to finish the question.

5 Were you briefed at all before you took up that assignment about the

6 situation you why going into?

7 A. Yes. We get briefed as part of -- we are the UN, we are

8 representatives, we have a job to do. We do get briefed about it.

9 Q. And where did that briefing take place?

10 A. The first briefing would be in our own headquarters about what it

11 is -- what the mission is about.

12 Q. And how long did that briefing take?

13 A. I don't recall really exactly how long but first you get the

14 documents themselves, and I read them. Then I meet with Mr. Thornberry

15 who was then at headquarters and other people and we listen to their

16 mission but basically, most of the briefing would be in the form of

17 documentation. UN documentation.

18 Q. All right. I take it then there was a second briefing after you

19 arrived in?

20 A. Belgrade.

21 Q. In Belgrade?

22 A. Yes, on 6th of April.

23 Q. Do you remember how long that briefing was and the nature of it

24 and so forth?

25 A. Yes. You start in the morning what we call military briefing that

1 becomes part of the routine of the mission. And we sat and hear a sit-rep

2 for that day given by various assets of the UN. You hear military

3 briefing, you hear civil police briefing and you hear civilian briefing.

4 Q. So by the time you actually arrived in Sector North, you did have

5 quite a lot of information about the situation and what was going on,

6 didn't you?

7 A. I believe I testified to that. I even came via west Slavonia

8 where I was on the ground on the way to Sector North.

9 Q. Could you look, please, at a document DB134, please?

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour can I just say we haven't had a list of

11 documents from Mr. Ackerman, it would help I think if by tomorrow morning

12 we could be provided it so we can get them together.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: There is only these two today that I just handed

14 you a few minutes ago.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We have only been handed one, Mr. Ackerman.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: You should have two documents, I don't know why the

17 Prosecutor doesn't have them.

18 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

20 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I see the document. It's an United Nations

22 document.

23 MR. ACKERMAN:

24 Q. You'll notice that this document is dated 25 October, 1991?

25 A. Correct.

1 Q. This is a report of the Secretary-General pursuant to paragraph 3

2 of Security Council resolution 713, and this is a report that would

3 certainly have been available to you?

4 A. Right.

5 Q. To look at prior to undertaking your mission, correct?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. Can you tell me, just by looking at it today, and I understand

8 that the entire report is not here, I have selected pages, I can make the

9 entire report available tomorrow if you want to look at all of it, but do

10 you have any recollection as to whether you in fact read this as one of

11 the UN documents you read prior to undertaking your assignment?

12 A. Basically, I would say to you in the earlier answer, yes as part

13 of the briefing in terms of UN documents. I'm not sure this particular

14 one was one I studied or can refer to readily the way I refer to my own

15 documents.

16 Q. When we look at the second page, page 456, and under the heading

17 "situation on the ground," you'll see paragraph 8?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. The current situation in regard to Yugoslavia is not only very

20 serious but in addition it is in a constant state of flux and change, as

21 regards both the political discussions under way and the situation on the

22 ground.

23 You were aware of that, were you not?

24 A. You just read the statement, am I aware of the statement or what

25 the statement refers to?

1 Q. Were you aware of what that refers to?

2 A. No I'm just reading what this -- remember, I'm in New York. If I

3 read it at all, I will read it exactly the way you're reading it.

4 Q. But when you arrived in Yugoslavia?

5 A. M'hm?

6 Q. Were you aware of this situation that's described, serious,

7 constant state of flux and change, and so forth?

8 A. It was --

9 Q. Did you go there with that impression in mind?

10 A. We expected to see a war zone and we saw one, as I arrived.

11 Q. So what is the answer to my question? Yes or no?

12 A. That there was a serious situation on the ground, yes, we were

13 aware it was a situation on the ground. That it was going to stabilise as

14 a result of the UN deployment is what we were looking for, not for a

15 situation getting any other characteristic than what the report says,

16 serious and in a state of flux.

17 Q. The next sentence, earlier fighting in Slovenia having abated and

18 died out in July, heavy fighting has since then persisted in Croatia,

19 pitting on one side the Yugoslav national army, JNA and supplementary

20 military units as well as irregular Serb forces against on the other side

21 the territorial forcers of the Republic of Croatia as well as Croatian

22 irregulars.

23 Were you familiar with that proposition before you arrived or did

24 you learn about it after you arrived?

25 A. I learnt about it on the ground.

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1 Q. Civilian inhabited areas have persistently been subjected to

2 direct fire, including from artillery and rocket batteries and indeed from

3 armoured naval and air units. Were you aware of that at any point? And

4 if so, when?

5 A. Increasingly, the first awareness I had of the hostilities on the

6 ground was entry into Sector East through the confrontation line, where

7 there were still combatants facing each other in both sides.

8 Q. And this sentence that we just read, sir, speaks of fairly serious

9 combat situation, direct fire, artillery, rockets, armoured naval and air

10 units. In other words, full-blown war, right?

11 A. Counsellor you're asking me when I got aware of something, and I

12 told you I'm aware of it on the ground as I get exposed to the situation.

13 Q. I just asked you a different question?

14 A. I know you asked me a different question but I'm telling you the

15 difficulty answering your question. First I have to get where it is

16 before answering your question. I cannot speak to a general thing and

17 say, I am aware they were referring here or there because I answered you

18 in the first place I wasn't aware, until I get there. So you must ask me

19 where I was and what I was aware of.

20 Q. That's not what I'm asking you?

21 A. Okay, please ask me.

22 Q. The Secretary-General reported civilian inhabited areas have

23 persistently been subjected to direct fire including from artillery and

24 rocket batteries and indeed from armoured and naval air units?

25 A. Yes, the answer to your question, this report is dated October,

1 1991. He may be talking about things that happened prior to my arrival.

2 Q. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't care when it

3 happened, I don't care where it happened. Do you accept that the

4 Secretary-General is reporting that accurately?

5 A. I don't know beyond what he said.

6 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, how can he

7 answer that? He wasn't there, he's already said that.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

9 MS. KORNER: How can he answer that? He doesn't know whether it's

10 accurate or inaccurate. He wasn't there.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner is right, Mr. Ackerman.

12 MR. ACKERMAN:

13 Q. Did you ever learn that there had been this kind of serious armed

14 combat going on in the state of Croatia?

15 A. As I got to the ground, as I moved from place to place, I got to

16 learn of the details what happened, where, I arrived.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to stop here, Mr. Ackerman.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. We will continue tomorrow.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We will continue tomorrow, Mr. Kirudja.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: 9.00 here in the same courtroom. I thank you all.

22 See you tomorrow morning.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

24 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

25 the 13th day of February, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.