Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14891

1 Thursday, 27 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 10.47 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good morning, Madam Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you.

10 Can you follow me in a language that -- can you follow the proceedings in

11 a language that you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I can.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please be seated. Appearances for the

14 Prosecution.

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: Good morning, Your Honours, Anna Richterova,

16 Sureta Chana assisted by Hasan Younis case manager.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you madam, and good morning to the three of

18 you. Appearances for the Prosecution.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours, I'm John Ackerman. I'm

20 here today with Vesna Anic who is assisting me today.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you both.

22 So before we bring in the witness, is there anything that you

23 would like to tell the Court?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, we have major problems with yesterday's

25 events, Your Honour. I don't know who can be with me in court tomorrow.

Page 14892

1 I have not arranged for anybody to be with me in court tomorrow.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I am inquiring myself about that, to make sure that

3 you are assisted, and if you are not assisted, then obviously we won't be

4 able to sit. It's as simple as that. Until the situation is -- clears

5 up. As far as today is concerned, as you know, when I was informed

6 yesterday afternoon, I agreed to the postponement of the sitting until I

7 could -- I had a guarantee that you would be assisted. Of course I

8 consulted with my two colleagues and the position is that I don't know

9 what the situation is going to be tomorrow as yet but I have got someone

10 working on it who should be informing me in a question of minutes because

11 he was working on it before the sitting started.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I wasn't able to reach Mr. Roberts last night.

13 It's possible that he will be available tomorrow afternoon and if he's not

14 available, then I will talk to Ms. Anic to see if she is available

15 tomorrow afternoon. I don't know if she is. She is. So we can cover

16 tomorrow afternoon one way or another.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's one thing. Unless -- I'm just thinking

18 aloud, unless you prefer, if it is possible, I don't know if it is

19 possible at all, to finish today, which would entail going into the

20 afternoon. In other words, stopping at quarter to 2.00, then resuming

21 again at quarter past 2.00 and provided we can finish by half past 4.00,

22 we could possibly conclude today rather than go into tomorrow. But I am

23 not quite sure whether that is okay with -- because everyone has to --

24 MR. ACKERMAN: It's really not possible because of preparation

25 with Mr. Brdjanin for the next witness.

Page 14893

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Then forget about it. Okay. That's okay.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: No time to do that.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I just made the suggestion -- we were talking about

4 it outside the courtroom.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I appreciate you suggesting that possibility.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We will see whether there is agreement on this.

7 Yes, Mr. Ackerman, I know that the Registrar's office is looking

8 into your problems, your client's problems. Hopefully you will find a

9 solution.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: The registry of course has been informed of the

11 situation Your Honour. Mr. Brdjanin would like to speak with Ms.

12 Jevtovic. She came here yesterday, paid her own way here, just for the

13 purpose of telling me what her position was. Since I've told the registry

14 that she has left the case I don't know if she'll have trouble getting

15 into the detention centre to speak with Mr. Brdjanin or not but I think

16 it's important that that happen because that could make a favourable

17 change in the situation. So if I need your assistance with regard to

18 that, I may ask you this afternoon for that.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, actually, we -- I have absolutely -- as a

20 trial judge, neither I nor my two colleagues, nor as a Trial Chamber, I

21 don't think we do have the jurisdiction to interfere into what is

22 absolutely the discretionary in the hands of the commandant of the

23 detention unit. However, I also can assure you that the commandant of the

24 detention unit is a very reasonable --

25 MR. ACKERMAN: He would not interfere at all, Your Honour, it

Page 14894

1 would be the registry that would not authorise her, Ms. Martinez, and if

2 Ms. Martinez authorises her to visit then there is no problem. She's

3 currently authorised --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: How can Ms. Martinez authorise Ms. Jevtovic to visit

5 the detention centre.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: That's the way it works, that's the way it works.

7 Nobody is allowed to visit the detention centre until OLAD authorises it

8 from a Defence standpoint --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But if she is no longer on the Defence team Ms.

10 Martinez doesn't come into the picture at all. It's just like any other

11 ordinary person that would like to pay a visit to one of the detainees

12 over there and I don't think that in that case, you go do the Registrar or

13 you go through the Registrar but not through --

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I will talk to Ms. Martinez and find out what her

15 final position is.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: In any case, Madam Chuqing can forward this part of

17 the transcript to both Ms. Martinez and Mr. McFadden, that we've taken

18 into consideration the suggestion of Mr. Ackerman that an interview

19 between Ms. -- Madam Marela Jevtovic and the accused could be useful at

20 this point in time, and that we recommend that this -- such a meeting is

21 facilitated. Beyond that, I don't think we can go because it does not

22 depend on us, Mr. Ackerman.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: I understand.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So a copy of this part of the transcript, Madam

25 Jevtovic, goes to Ms. Martinez, as far as she may have jurisdiction now or

Page 14895

1 may not have jurisdiction, I don't know. The Registrar for all intents

2 and purposes, Mr. McFadden. Thank you.

3 So let's bring the witness in.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Doslic.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: May I ask you to make the solemn declaration --

10 repeat your solemn declaration again, please?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please be seated.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Ackerman who is representing Mr. Brdjanin

18 will start with his cross-examination.

19 Mr. Ackerman.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:

22 Q. Good morning, sir.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. If you cross that bridge in Donji Vakuf and drive for about 12

25 kilometres, you come to Bugojno, don't you?

Page 14896

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And in April and May of 1992, Bugojno was a 100 per cent --

3 virtually 100 per cent Muslim city, was it not?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Confrontation line between HVO, Muslim and Serb forces was very

6 near to Donji Vakuf, was it not?

7 A. No. In May, there were no lines at all. Not in that part.

8 Q. People who left Donji Vakuf in May went to Bugojno because that

9 was a Muslim-controlled area and a safe haven for them, wasn't it?

10 A. People left Bugojno for the territory and went their separate

11 ways, throughout the territory of the former Yugoslavia.

12 Q. But people left Donji Vakuf and went to Bugojno, didn't they?

13 A. At that time, not everyone was leaving Donji Vakuf. People left

14 in waves.

15 Q. My question was not whether everyone left or not. My question was

16 people left Bugojno -- people left Donji Vakuf and went to Bugojno, didn't

17 they?

18 A. Not everyone.

19 Q. I didn't ask you if everyone did. I said people left Donji Vakuf

20 and went to Bugojno, didn't they? Some people.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The bridge that was blown up in Donji Vakuf, you know, do you not,

23 that there was a truck with coal in it that contained explosives that

24 exploded and blew up the bridge?

25 A. That's what I heard, and I also saw the remains.

Page 14897

1 Q. You saw coal lying around the bridge area, didn't you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Yesterday, you named some people who you knew that were killed in

4 this explosion. Could you tell us again what those people's names were?

5 A. Well, one was a barber, Safet. There was a waiter who had worked

6 in a cafe near the bridge by the name of Cikota, and there was a child

7 whose name I can't remember.

8 Q. You know the ethnicity of any of these people?

9 A. All of them were Muslims.

10 Q. Look at document now P1750, would you please?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: It was used yesterday, Your Honour.

12 Q. Sir, you looked at this yesterday and I'm just going to refer you

13 back to a section that you saw yesterday. It's -- I don't know how it

14 looks in your version but part way through, several paragraphs down, there

15 is a paragraph that says, "It all started on April 30 when Croats and

16 Muslims from neighbouring towns sent us a lorry full of explosives hidden

17 under a load of coal, Ninkovic said." As far as you know, this is a

18 correct account, is it not?

19 A. I wouldn't know for sure.

20 Q. I'd like you to look at an Exhibit P899 now, please. This is a

21 document, sir, dated 5 May, 1992. This would be, if the bridge were

22 destroyed on April 30th, this would be like five days later. You'll

23 notice that it's a document from the 5th Corps command, Major General

24 Momir Talic addressed to the 30th Partisan Brigade command and signed by

25 someone on behalf of Major General Talic, and it says this: "Since the

Page 14898

1 bridge in Donji Vakuf and the transmitter in the wider area of Kljuc have

2 recently been destroyed in your zone of responsibility, and you did not

3 have a valid assessment regarding the securing of the vital facilities in

4 your area of responsibility, I order, number 1, that you send me an

5 assessment of all the vital facilities in your zone of responsibility and

6 the forces with which you are securing them."

7 Now, would you agree that General Talic is criticising the 30th

8 Partisan Brigade for not protecting that bridge and telling them that he

9 immediately wants a report from them on all the other vital facilities and

10 how they are going to protect them?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Look at number 2. He says, "Submit a detailed report on the aim

13 of the demonstration of Serbian extremism in Kljuc and Donji Vakuf and to

14 what degree it was initiated by official organs." Do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know what demonstration of Serbian extremism went on in

17 Donji Vakuf in early May of 1992?

18 A. Well, when the bridge was blown up, the strength of military

19 formations and units increased.

20 Q. Okay. You actually heard, didn't you, that that bridge was blown

21 up by Croats?

22 A. No.

23 Q. I'd like you to look, please, and the Prosecution will provide you

24 with this, a statement that you gave on 23 August, 1994, before the

25 investigating judge of the High Court in Zenica.

Page 14899

1 First thing I'd like you to do, sir, is look at the last page of

2 that report and tell me if it bears your signature.

3 A. Yes, it does.

4 Q. Now, it's on page 3 in the English version, I'm not sure where it

5 is in your version but please find a paragraph that begins with the

6 language, "We watched from Donji Vakuf as the Serbs with the then Yugoslav

7 army" and so forth. Tell me when you find that paragraph. "We watched

8 from Donji Vakuf." Have you found that paragraph yet?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. If you look a little ways down in that paragraph, sir, I think you

11 will find this language: "I think the Croats pulled down the bridge on

12 the Vrbas River on 30 April, 1992, around 0500 hours, which provided the

13 motive for the Serbs to begin their terror." You see that?

14 A. Yes, yes, I see that.

15 Q. And that was a statement you made in -- on the 23rd of August,

16 1994, a little more than two years after these events, correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that you signed your name to?

19 A. I did. But it was never established who blew up the bridge.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why he says I think.


22 Q. I understand that's why you say I think. The question I asked you

23 earlier was you heard that the bridge was blown up by Croats, didn't you,

24 you said no. But in this statement you say you think it was pulled down

25 by Croats, didn't you?

Page 14900

1 A. Well, that's how it was at the beginning but it was later revealed

2 that no one knows who the perpetrator was, so I can't say anything one way

3 or another.

4 Q. Yesterday, in your testimony here, LiveNote page 12 and 13, you

5 said that you had heard the explosion and saw the smoke from the

6 destruction of this bridge, didn't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you told us that you were nearby in the company of your wife

9 and children?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you told us that it happened in the afternoon. That's what

12 you told us yesterday.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In 1994, in August, when you talked to the judge of the High

15 Court, you told him that it happened on 30 April, 1992, around 0500 hours,

16 5.00 in the morning. I just want to know what caused you to change your

17 story between 1994 and yesterday.

18 A. No. That did not happen in the morning, because it says 5.00 here

19 and 5.00 can also be in the afternoon, because we write 5.00 as 1700

20 hours.

21 Q. This says 0500 hours, doesn't it? Or is it a translation problem?

22 A. I don't know who wrote this.

23 Q. Well, you signed it. You don't know who wrote it?

24 A. I did. In our language, you can write 5, and it can mean both

25 a.m. and p.m. I don't know how you do it.

Page 14901

1 Q. Okay. I have another document I'd like you to look at. It's

2 disclosure number 4.1552, 136?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: And Your Honour I'll mark that as DB136. Your

4 Honour, I must tell you that I have extracted just two pages to make this

5 exhibit from a very long document that -- I'm sorry? It's only in

6 English. I only have an English version so if you put it on the ELMO, a

7 very long document, I don't have the B/C/S version of the document, it's a

8 notebook from the 5th Krajina Corps, that's how it's described in the

9 disclosure to me. It's some kind of a daily record.

10 Q. Sir, I don't have a version of this in your language so all I can

11 do is read to you from page 108 of this document. You understand that

12 it's represented as a notebook that came from the 5th Krajina Corps. At

13 page 108 of that document the following entry appears: Under number 2.

14 "At 1740 hours, on 30 April, the bridge in Donji Vakuf was destroyed. At

15 that moment, a cargo truck came along carrying coal from Gracanica.

16 Instead of coal the truck contained large quantities of explosives. It

17 blew up, destroying the bridge. Besides the bridge, which cannot be used,

18 several houses were destroyed. There were casualties as well as material

19 damage, large number of dead and wounded, seven killed [four children] and

20 20 injured. Driver captured, Croat from Livno."

21 See that? You don't see it but you heard the translation,

22 correct?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that report?

25 A. I wouldn't know and I never heard anything about a driver being

Page 14902

1 captured.

2 Q. I'd like you now to just -- there is another page to that

3 document. You know, do you not, that that bridge was rather speedily

4 restored by the JNA? In fact it was restored just four days later, I

5 think on May 5th. Do you know that to be the case?

6 A. Yes. They did repair the bridge. I don't know the date, though.

7 Q. If you just look at the next page of that document, page 113,

8 there is an entry that says, "The bridge was set up in Donji Vakuf at 1600

9 hours," and I believe the date of that entry is 4 or 5 May, 1992.

10 Now, I think you told us yesterday that you couldn't think of any

11 reason why the Croats would blow up that bridge. Isn't it the case that

12 the Croats would blow up that bridge to try to prevent Serb forces from

13 crossing the Vrbas River into what was Muslim-Croat territory?

14 A. I don't know. I don't know.

15 Q. You know there were units of the 5th Krajina Corps stationed in

16 the area of Donji Vakuf, don't you?

17 A. I don't know whose corps was there at the time. All I know is

18 that there were troops.

19 Q. I'd like you to look at another statement you made on 15 January,

20 1993. This was to state security detachment in Bugojno. And again what

21 I'd like you to do is look at the very last page and see if you see your

22 signature there.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. This is a statement that you gave January 15, 1993, less than a

25 year after the events of May, 1992. If you look at the next to the last

Page 14903

1 paragraph of this document, you say this: "I would also like to add that

2 a part of the Banja Luka Corps with heavy artillery is stationed in the

3 area of Donji Vakuf." Does that refresh your recollection as to what it

4 was you knew at that time in 1993?

5 A. Could you please repeat the question?

6 Q. Yeah. Does that statement that you made in 1993 refresh your

7 recollection as to what it was you knew at that time?

8 A. Yes. It's the way it says in the statement.

9 Q. Okay. Yesterday, you named some persons who would come to the

10 camps, both the TO warehouse and Vrbaspromet and beat people. Some of the

11 names you mentioned were Jordan Ilic, Vojo Jandric, a person called

12 Balaban, Brane Pacavra, Sasa Krivosija and some others. You referred to

13 them as soldiers. Did you call them soldiers because they were wearing

14 uniforms?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. They were not members of any regular army unit that you know of,

17 were they?

18 A. I know that they wore emblems, arm bands, with writing on them in

19 Cyrillic that said "police."

20 Q. Were they wearing blue uniforms?

21 A. Blue and brown. Camouflage.

22 Q. If they were police, they were not soldiers, then, were they? Or

23 do you make a distinction?

24 A. Well, Brane Pacavra had a uniform with a white belt, and an olive

25 green grey uniform.

Page 14904

1 Q. Any conclusion you make about whether they were part of any

2 organised unit is based solely upon your observation of their uniforms,

3 and you have no other information regarding that, do you?

4 A. I already told you that they wore blue and brown camouflage

5 uniforms. Two or three among them, including Pacavra and Satara had such

6 uniforms with white belts. The colour of their uniforms was olive green

7 grey. The people who were with me, such as Vojo Ilic, who used to work

8 with me, suddenly became a policeman.

9 Q. Let me ask you about Jordan Ilic. What kind of a uniform did you

10 see him wearing?

11 A. He too wore the same uniform.

12 Q. Which?

13 A. Blue.

14 Q. Did he have a blue uniform?

15 A. Blue brown.

16 Q. Okay. Do you have any idea who it was, what unit?

17 A. Blue and brown.

18 Q. I'm sorry, do you have any idea what unit it was that he was part

19 of, who was his commander, anything like that?

20 A. He was a policeman who brought people in and beat them, and

21 everybody addressed the warden of this prison of -- or whatever you want

22 to call it, Djurkic.

23 Q. Okay. Let me go to another subject.

24 You spoke yesterday of a person named Novo Boroja and how he

25 treated you very well. You recall that?

Page 14905

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you please tell the Judges the things it was that he did to

3 help you and treat you well?

4 A. Well, we used to be neighbours, we knew each other.

5 Q. My question is tell the Judges the things he did to help you and

6 treat you well. What specifically did he do to help you?

7 A. For instance, he almost saved my life on two occasions.

8 Q. Like when the old woman tried to stab you with her sword?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What was the other occasion?

11 A. The second occasion was when we were building a stable and one man

12 wanted to cut my head off with an axe.

13 Q. And Novo Boroja prevented that, did he?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I think you hinted at least yesterday that he assisted you with

16 food.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What other assistance? Can you think of any other assistance he

19 gave you, anything else he did to help you?

20 A. For instance, sometimes when he had time to spare, he would come

21 to my house and we would sit up until the small hours.

22 Q. And it's your position that he helped you because you were

23 neighbours and friends, correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I assume he's a Serb.

Page 14906

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I'd like you to look at a document P1706, please. Sir, if you

3 look at the second page of that document, I assume it's the second page,

4 you'll see a list of 30 people and then three more that are handwritten,

5 that are people who were appointed to be members of the assembly of the

6 Serbian Municipality of Donji Vakuf. Do you see that?

7 A. These three men down below.

8 Q. Turn the page. There are 30. The next page. See the long list

9 of names?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I want to ask you about three of those people. Number 3 is Ilija

12 Boroja. Number 4 is Ranko Boroja?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And number 30 is Zeljko Boroja. Can you tell us if any of those

15 people are related to Novo Boroja?

16 A. I don't know exactly whether they are related. I know that Ilija

17 Boroja -- I know Ilija Boroja very well. As to whether they were related,

18 I don't know.

19 Q. Serbs in Donji Vakuf certainly were aware that Novo Boroja was

20 helping you and assisting you, weren't they?

21 A. No, no.

22 Q. Wouldn't people have learned on those two occasions at least that

23 he tried to save your life and actually succeeded in saving your life,

24 that he was helping you, protecting you?

25 A. To be honest, I have to say that this man helped me a lot.

Page 14907

1 Whether he was related with them, I really don't know.

2 Q. My question has to do with other Serbs in Donji Vakuf being aware

3 that he was in fact protecting and assisting you. They would have had to

4 have been aware of that, at least some of them, correct?

5 A. Out of the three of them, no, they didn't know.

6 Q. Do you know where Novo Boroja is today?

7 A. I don't have reliable information but I did inquire through these

8 people, and I heard that he spent sometime in Banja Luka, sometime in

9 Gradiska but I don't know his exact whereabouts.

10 Q. All right. I want to talk to you for a moment now about work

11 obligations because you talked about being released from Vrbaspromet and

12 assigned to a work obligation. Do you know that in the event of a

13 mobilisation, that persons mobilised must either go into a military unit

14 or can, under certain conditions, perform a work obligation as a

15 substitute for going into a military unit? Do you know that that's the

16 case, that that was the law?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you know that if you have a work obligation, a certified work

19 obligation, then you're exempted from going into the military and going to

20 fight at the front line, for instance?

21 A. It was a compulsory obligation.

22 Q. Any time there is a mobilisation and people are called up, that's

23 a compulsory obligation, isn't it?

24 A. No. Not in this case. It was not an obligation in this case.

25 Q. You know, don't you, that there were Serbs in Donji Vakuf who were

Page 14908

1 mobilised and did not go into the military but instead were performing

2 work obligations as a substitute? You know that, don't you?

3 A. The majority of them were in some sort of military service, and

4 all detainees and others were performing work obligations.

5 Q. But my question was, you also know that there were Serbs in Donji

6 Vakuf who were mobilised and performing work obligations, don't you?

7 A. Very few of them.

8 Q. All right. I want to go back to this statement that you made to

9 the judge at the High Court of Zenica on August 23rd, 1994. You still

10 have that? I want to refer you to the third paragraph of your statement,

11 sir. It begins with the language, "The first accused Nedeljko Ninkovic."

12 Do you see that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Now, according to this, you also said the following with regard to

15 the SDS: "Within the framework of the parties activities, he, meaning

16 Nedeljko Ninkovic, received orders from higher levels of decision making

17 that were then, as now, headed by Radovan Karadzic, Momcilo Krajisnik,

18 Nikola Koljevic, Biljana Plavsic and other criminals, who in their turn

19 may have been receiving orders and guidelines for this monstrous policy

20 from their leadership in Serbia." Now, where did you come up with that

21 information? Did Nedeljko Ninkovic tell you that he was getting orders

22 from Karadzic and Krajisnik and Koljevic and Plavsic?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Where did you come up with this information? What caused to you

25 say that?

Page 14909

1 A. What caused me to say this was my experience and my suffering.

2 This is what I experienced on my own skin.

3 Q. You experienced Nedeljko Ninkovic receiving orders from higher

4 levels on your own skin?

5 A. Well, I don't know who he received his orders from. I just told

6 them my personal opinion.

7 Q. Well, no where in there does it say that it's your opinion. You

8 represent this in this statement as something you know. So it's the case

9 that you really don't know any of the things you say in that paragraph

10 that it's just your opinion, your guess, correct?

11 A. It says here, "I personally know." And once again, this was my

12 personal opinion, my personal knowledge.

13 Q. It says you personally know Nedeljko Ninkovic but you just told

14 us that he didn't tell you any of these things, correct?

15 A. He didn't tell me anything but I know him because he used to be my

16 teacher.

17 Q. Let me suggest to you, sir, this: That someone else wrote this in

18 your statement, that these are not your words, and that you didn't

19 actually say this, you just adopted it. Isn't that true? Isn't that what

20 really happened?

21 A. What exactly do you have in mind?

22 Q. I have in mind --

23 A. What really happened?

24 Q. I have in mind that someone else put this in the statement, that

25 these are not really your words.

Page 14910

1 A. No. These are my words and my opinion.

2 Q. Okay. So you want us to believe that on that date, in August of

3 1994, you said, "Within the framework of the party's activities, he,

4 meaning Nedeljko Ninkovic, received orders from higher levels of decision

5 making that were then, as now, headed by Radovan Karadzic, Momcilo

6 Krajisnik, Nikola Koljevic, Biljana Plavsic and other criminals, who in

7 their turn may have been receiving orders and guidelines for this

8 monstrous policy from their leadership in Serbia"? You're telling us that

9 those are your words, that that's what you said? Correct?

10 A. This is what I stated and these are my personal words.

11 Q. Tell us what information you had at your disposal on that date

12 that caused you to arrive at this opinion? What did you know?

13 A. I told you, I told you that this was my personal opinion.

14 Q. But what did you know that let you make this opinion? I mean, you

15 have to have some facts to draw an opinion, to make an opinion, don't

16 you? What facts did you have? What did you know?

17 A. I knew that Nedeljko Ninkovic was the SDS leader in Donji Vakuf.

18 Q. That's it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. A little further on in this document, sir, it's over on page 4 of

21 the English version, in this statement, I want you to look for a paragraph

22 that begins with, "I was enjoying some sort of freedom." It's probably

23 two pages after what you just saw. It begins with the language, "I was

24 enjoying some sort of freedom."

25 A. Yes. I do see it.

Page 14911

1 Q. Okay. Now, what this says, according to my translation, "I was

2 enjoying some sort of freedom in Donji Vakuf until Stamenko Satara and

3 Jordan Ilic arrested me for no reason on 16 June, 1992." Is that what you

4 said?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you said that in a statement that you signed your name to,

7 didn't you?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. If you look now at the statement you made on 15 January, 1993,

10 again a statement that you signed --

11 A. Yes, I signed it.

12 Q. Now, this is about seven months after you were actually arrested.

13 What you told state security in Bugojno on 15 January, 1993, was this, and

14 you'll find this in the one, two, three, fourth paragraph after the word

15 "statement." "I can say without a doubt that it was precisely because I

16 had been denounced by Celic that I was arrested." That's what you said on

17 15 January, 1993. And then by August of 1994, you were arrested for no

18 reason?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman I have to stop you here because three

20 lines further down he also says in the same statement, "I'm not familiar

21 with the real reasons behind my arrest."

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour, but he says he can say without

23 doubt that it was precisely because he'd been denounced by Celic. That's

24 the statement I'm dealing with.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, but you need to point that out to him.

Page 14912


2 Q. That's what you said, wasn't it, "I can say without a doubt that

3 it was precisely because I had been denounced by Celic that I was

4 arrested"?

5 A. Halil Celic is my neighbour who went around with them and he

6 pointed to the houses where the people lived, and he collaborated with

7 them.

8 Q. Yes, but my question is not that. My question is: Did you say

9 this: "I can say without a doubt that it was precisely because I had been

10 denounced by Celic that I was arrested"? Did you say that?

11 A. No. That's not what it says. What it says here is what I

12 actually told them.

13 Q. Could you read -- could you read your version and so I can hear

14 the translation of it? Start with, "Furthermore Celic went around Muslim

15 houses." Just read that entire paragraph to us.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And before -- one moment, before he does that,

17 please, the interpreters that will be translating into English, just make

18 sure that you interpret what he will be reading and not what is contained

19 already in the English translation of the same document that we have,

20 because it's important to know exactly what at this present moment you

21 consider to be the correct interpretation of what is contained in this

22 particular part of the statement. Thank you.


24 Q. Sir, read that whole paragraph that begins with "Furthermore

25 Celic" and read it very slowly so that the interpreters can interpret it

Page 14913

1 for us.

2 A. "Together with the members of the above mentioned military police,

3 Celic went around Muslim houses and searched them together with them. I

4 can claim, I can freely claim that it was precisely because I had been

5 denounced by Celic that I was arrested, as was the case with Nasko Dosic

6 and our neighbours, Esad Becar, Abdulah Began, Smajo Rahmanovic, and Hamid

7 Rahmanovic. The real reasons behind my arrest are not familiar to me."

8 And then the date here, the 17th of June is not correct. It happened on

9 the 16th of June.

10 Q. All right. You'll concede that what you have just read to us is

11 in fact what you said?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that was what you said on 15 January, 1993, very shortly after

14 the events, wasn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And when you say in connection with saying precisely you were

17 arrested because you'd been denounced by Celic and then you follow that

18 with I'm not familiar with the real reasons, I take it what you mean is

19 you knew that he had denounced you and caused your arrest but you didn't

20 know what it was he had said about you, the reasons that he had given?

21 A. No. May I just --

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

23 A. No, no. May I explain, please?

24 Q. Please.

25 A. Halil Celic, as I have already said, collaborated with them, since

Page 14914

1 Brane Pacavra and Satara, whose name I don't know, are not from Donji

2 Vakuf, they didn't know who lived where, and where their houses were. So

3 it was him who told them who lived where and which house belonged to whom.

4 Q. But you have no idea what Celic told them about you, do you?

5 A. No, no.

6 Q. Look at P1750 now, sir. You saw this yesterday, we'll look at it

7 again now. I'm sorry, that's the wrong number, Your Honour. It's 1759.

8 Yesterday, you found your name in that document. I think you'll find it

9 on page 8, sir. You'll recall that this document says that you were

10 arrested because you were suspected of possession of weapons, correct?

11 A. No.

12 Q. That is what it says, isn't it? It says you were arrested because

13 you were suspected of possession of weapons. That's what the document

14 says, correct?

15 A. Well, this is a Serbian document.

16 Q. I understand. I'm just asking you if that's what it says. It

17 says you were arrested on 16 June, 1992, and that you were suspected of

18 possession of weapons?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I'm only asking you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. If that's what it says. That's what it says, doesn't it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now it may very well be, since you have no idea what it was that

25 Celic told the police about that, that he told them that you had weapons

Page 14915












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 14915 to 14918.













Page 14919

1 and that they therefore suspected that you had weapons and that's why they

2 arrested you.

3 A. I never had any weapons, nor do I have any weapons today, nor does

4 any member of my family.

5 Q. I am not suggesting that you had weapons.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I'm not suggesting that you had weapons. I'm suggesting that this

8 Celic, who was denouncing everybody, may very well have told the police

9 that you had weapons.

10 A. I don't know that.

11 Q. You don't know that he didn't?

12 A. No.

13 Q. But after a period of time, in confinement, during which time you

14 were never beaten, you were then released, apparently because there was no

15 evidence developed that you ever possessed weapons, correct?

16 A. I don't know why they released me.

17 Q. You don't know of your own personal knowledge who it was that

18 destroyed any of the mosques in Donji Vakuf, do you?

19 A. In Donji Vakuf, when the mosque was destroyed, there were no more

20 than 50 Muslims left, women, children, and elderly. There were only Serbs

21 left. So who else could have destroyed it?

22 Q. You're misunderstanding my question. The question is quite

23 simple. You don't know of your own personal knowledge who it was that

24 destroyed the mosques in Donji Vakuf, do you?

25 A. I cannot answer that question.

Page 14920

1 Q. The first mosque you talked about yesterday, I think it's called

2 the Dudica Dzamija?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I think you told us that that was basically a wooden structure

5 with the exception of the -- of parts of it, and it burned down?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And Novo Boroja told you that it had been set on fire, didn't he?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In your testimony yesterday, LiveNote 37, page 37, line 17, you

10 were asked this question, from line 16: "Were you ever informed as to

11 this fire and the cause of it?" And you gave this answer: "Well, we

12 learned that either Serb policemen or Serb soldiers had set it on fire.

13 It definitely wasn't the Muslims who did it." Now my question is this:

14 When you say, "We learned," who is "we"?

15 A. If you can just tell me the date, please?

16 Q. Yesterday. Testimony. Yesterday, in testimony, you said, "We

17 learned." Now, who is "we"?

18 A. Well, we, I mean those of us who were at home, me, my wife, the

19 children. Of course no Muslim would set a mosque on fire.

20 Q. So what you're saying is here, me, my wife and my children learned

21 that either Serb policemen or Serb soldiers had set it on fire? Is that

22 what you're saying?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. From where did you learn that?

25 A. I saw the mosque on fire. I saw it burn. And I saw when it was

Page 14921

1 burnt down.

2 Q. But from where did you learn that it was either Serb policemen or

3 Serb soldiers that had set it on fire? Where did you and your wife and

4 your children learn that?

5 A. Well, who else could that be?

6 Q. So it was a guess, right?

7 A. No, not a guess. It's simply the truth.

8 Q. You know that structures occasionally catch fire by accident,

9 don't you?

10 A. Well, the structure had been standing for a hundred years, and it

11 happened to burn just then.

12 Q. So it was an old, wooden structure, wasn't it, a hundred years

13 old, at least, old, dry wood?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And being an electrician, you certainly know about electrical

16 fires, don't you?

17 A. However, the mosque did not have such lighting. It was an old

18 mosque.

19 Q. Can you sit here and tell these Judges today, with complete

20 certainty, that that mosque was set on fire rather than burning from other

21 causes?

22 A. I claim that it was a case of arson, and I can swear on my life to

23 that.

24 Q. But that's just a guess on your part, isn't it?

25 A. We are not talking about one mosque only.

Page 14922

1 Q. Yeah. We are only talking about one mosque. We are talking about

2 that one mosque, that's the only one we are talking about, and you're

3 guessing, aren't you?

4 A. No, I'm not guessing.

5 Q. I'd like you to look at a document, P898, please.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour do you want to take a break before I go

7 into this?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: No, we have another 15 minutes.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: 15 or 16 minutes.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: But if you require a break now, we'll have a break

13 now.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Somehow I got it in my head we would break at noon.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Had we started at half past 10.00 we would have but

16 we started at quarter to 11.00.


18 Q. This document P898, sir, you saw yesterday, I just want to draw

19 your attention to the very first part of that document, the second

20 paragraph. It's under the heading, "Information about the enemy." Do you

21 see that? And then the paragraph reads, "Forces of the blue and reserve

22 police are being mobilised in Bugojno and Donji Vakuf." Do you see that?

23 Do you find that? It's right near the beginning?

24 A. Yes, I can see it.

25 Q. That was read to you yesterday and you were asked to confirm the

Page 14923

1 presence of reserve police in Donji Vakuf. Do you remember being asked

2 that?

3 A. I remember, they asked.

4 Q. Page 50 of LiveNote, you said, your answer was, that they

5 mobilised and armed only Serb men. That was your reaction to this, wasn't

6 it?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. But, sir, this document is a combat report from the 30th Partisan

9 division in which they are providing information about the enemy. So when

10 they talk about forces of the blue and reserve police being mobilised in

11 Bugojno and Donji Vakuf they are talking about the mobilisation of

12 non-Serb reserve police, aren't they?

13 A. No, no. This document --

14 Q. In fact, there were no Serb men to be mobilised in Bugojno at that

15 time, were there? It's talking about the mobilisation of Muslim forces,

16 isn't it? Muslim police.

17 A. No, no. This is not true.

18 Q. So you think this is talking about the mobilisation of Serbs under

19 a heading information about the enemy?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So the 30th Partisan division sees Serbs as their enemy? That's

22 your position?

23 A. I don't know who was whose enemy but only they put on uniforms and

24 armed themselves.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: That's all the questions I have, Your Honour.

Page 14924

1 Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. Is there

3 re-examination?

4 MS. CHANA: I would like to ask just a few questions, Your Honour

5 with your permission.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Please proceed.

7 Re-examined by Ms. Chana:

8 Q. Yes, this document, Mr. Doslic, that you were shown, that's your

9 statement on 15 January, 1993. And counsel read to you this particular

10 paragraph, if I can find it. Bear with me, Your Honour, I'm sorry, I'm

11 trying to find it. This was the paragraph if counsel can assist me, about

12 Krajisnik and Plavsic and the policy?


14 MR. ACKERMAN: It's in the other document.

15 MS. CHANA: Sorry.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the second statement.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: August.

18 MS. CHANA: The August statement, I beg your pardon.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: The 23 August statement and it's on page 2.

20 MS. CHANA: Thank you very much, yes.

21 Q. This particular paragraph, which counsel referred you to in his

22 cross-examination, within the framework or he received orders from higher

23 levels of decision making, and were then headed by Radovan Karadzic, et

24 cetera, may have been receiving orders and guidelines for this monstrous

25 policy. It is these words, this monstrous policy, I want you to address

Page 14925

1 the Court, please. Can you please tell us what this monstrous policy was

2 that you were alluding to and whether you yourself was a victim of this

3 monstrous policy.

4 A. Yes. It was a policy of persecution, expulsion and killing.

5 Q. So when you said to counsel, to this Court, that you felt it with

6 your own skin, is that what you meant?

7 A. I not only felt it but also all of my neighbours and friends, many

8 of whom disappeared, many of whom were killed, and who are not mentioned

9 anywhere here, not a single word about them.

10 Q. And these are your views of the matter? Is that correct?

11 A. Well, here is my view point. All the inmates of all prisons were

12 registered. We were the only one who were not registered. We were only

13 transferred from one warehouse to another.

14 Q. Yes. Now can you please tell me that counsel showed you this

15 document and I will not refer you, I think you remember it, where a Croat

16 was -- driver was supposed to have been arrested, of the lorry, and with

17 the coal on the bridge. Do you recall that?

18 A. No one was ever captured to date, and I don't know how much time

19 has elapsed. No one established the truth about it. No one was ever

20 apprehended for this crime, and I don't know who did it.

21 Q. Did you ever, ever, hear about a trial having taken place in

22 respect of this bridge?

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. Ilija Boroja, you said you knew him. How do you know him?

25 A. Well, he had a coffee bar in town. He was a resident of our town,

Page 14926

1 and I already told you it was a small place. We all knew each other.

2 Q. Is Boroja a very familiar name in the region? The surname

3 Boroja.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Uniforms: Counsel asked you about the various kind of uniforms

6 and you gave different colours, brown and blue, but is it a fact that

7 every single person was a Serb in these uniforms?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 MS. CHANA: That would be all from this witness, thank you Your

10 Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Chana.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We have some questions for you from the Bench. The

14 first questions will be addressed to you by Judge Janu from the Czech

15 Republic.

16 JUDGE JANU: Mr. Doslic, you said that Nikola Kisin and Nedeljko

17 Ninkovic were your teachers. Could you please describe for the Chamber --

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE JANU: What sort of people they were? They were teaching

20 you so how did you view them as a personality? Can you describe that

21 for us?

22 A. Well, I knew them both as persons, as neighbours, as teachers as

23 well, before the war they used to be normal people. They worked at

24 school. I don't know what you would like to hear specifically. In the

25 beginning of the 1990s, when all these events started, they joined in with

Page 14927

1 the SDS, they were the greatest supporters of the SDS in Donji Vakuf, and

2 the highest ranking officials.

3 JUDGE JANU: Before the 1990s, would you -- from the position you

4 knew them, would you guess that they were capable of any atrocity or

5 anything wrong, before this event?

6 A. No, no.

7 JUDGE JANU: Is it that that you concluded that they had to

8 receive some orders because they were not capable to organise such evil

9 what you experienced on your own skin?

10 A. Let me tell you one thing. I knew them as one kind of men before

11 the war, and a completely different kind of men during the war. And as

12 for Kisin, Nikola, who was a neighbour of mine from a nearby village, I

13 liked football and I was a good player and so was he. He often came to

14 watch our football matches and to cheer for us.

15 JUDGE JANU: But my question was, because you said they received

16 orders, and my question was why -- because you were not witnessing that

17 they were receiving the orders, but you logically concluded something. So

18 my question was: Was -- because your positive experience with them, so

19 was this the factor for your conclusion that they were themselves without

20 the orders not capable to do anything wrong, basically wrong, what you

21 experience later on?

22 A. Well, certainly, because they were not able to drag all those

23 units into our town, into the villages from Gradiska from other places.

24 JUDGE JANU: My second question would be more or less the same.

25 Would you tell us about Jordan Ilic from before the war? That's first

Page 14928

1 part of the question. And second part, do you know where he's living

2 now? Did you meet him recently?

3 A. Jordan Ilic lived in a certain part of town which had a majority

4 Serb population, in a village. He worked as a carpenter at the timber

5 factory. That's where I knew him from. During the war, however, he

6 became a policeman. He beat people up. He provoked them, and harassed

7 them. I saw that on more than one occasion. And I don't know the real

8 truth of course but I hear from other people that he is dead.

9 JUDGE JANU: Thank you. And my last -- third and last question

10 is: Would you describe for us the destruction of the mosque? You said

11 you see the mosque -- you saw the mosque standing, and you could see the

12 mosque burning. So just try to bring us to the picture.

13 A. Well, we are talking about a small town where I live. Those

14 mosques were from 100 to 300 metres apart. I don't know which mosque you

15 mean specifically. You mean the last one mentioned or the one mentioned

16 by this gentleman here or the one that was razed to the ground and parking

17 was later set up there?

18 JUDGE JANU: I am discussing, or I am asking you about the mosque

19 you discussed here with the counsel for the accused.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: The first one?

21 A. You mean the Dudica mosque?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The wooden one.

23 A. Yes, yes. I understand. That mosque was built out of wood, and

24 solid materials. The part that goes up to the minaret was made of wood

25 and the other part was made out of wood and solid material, half-half. It

Page 14929

1 was a very old mosque, a symbol of our tradition, a very old one.

2 JUDGE JANU: But my question was to bring us to the picture, how

3 the destruction was going on. You said you were watching it. So did it

4 start it slowly? When did it start, it was in the afternoon, in the

5 night? What could you see?

6 A. Well, it happened sometime around 10.00 or 11.00, I wouldn't be

7 able to tell you exactly now to the hour. It was set on fire, and it

8 burnt, emitting a dense cloud of smoke.

9 JUDGE JANU: Thank you.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay, thanks.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Rather than a question, actually I have a little bit

12 of a confusion in my mind resulting from two statements that you made, and

13 one statement, the one of August, the one of August, 1994, you referred to

14 Nedeljko Ninkovic as the President of the Donji Vakuf branch of the SDS,

15 and then in the statement to the Prosecution of June 2001, when you refer

16 to the events of the 22nd December, 1992, in other words when you were

17 exchanged, and you mention the presence of Nikola Kisin, you describe him

18 as the SDS president. Were there -- who was actually the President of the

19 SDS in Donji Vakuf? Kisin or Ninkovic?

20 A. Both of them were there, taking turns. I don't know at what

21 intervals, a year or two in 1990, or I don't know which year exactly it

22 was Ninkovic and then it was Kisin.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. I don't have any further

24 questions. And that means your testimony comes to an end here. You're

25 free to go and the offices of this Tribunal will be assisting you to help

Page 14930

1 you on return to your country of residence.

2 On our part, in my own name and on behalf of also the two other

3 Judges that sit with me in this trial, and on behalf of the Tribunal, I

4 should like to thank you for having come over to give evidence. You will

5 now be escorted by the usher and attended to. Thank you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So ladies and gentlemen, we will have a break of 25

9 minutes and I take it -- will you, Madam Chana, will you be handling the

10 next witness?

11 MS. CHANA: No, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We will start with the next witness, I

13 suppose, and how long do you anticipate his -- your in chief to last,

14 Madam Richterova?

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: It's really very hard to say because I have lots

16 of documents which I want to go over with him.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So 25 minutes. Thank you.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The next witness is 7.194?

21 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, that's correct. And there are no protective

22 measures for this witness.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. All right. The usher presumably went

24 to bring in the witness. All right. Tomorrow, I think you are all aware

25 that we will be sitting in the afternoon and not in the morning.

Page 14931

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning to you, sir.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you follow what I am saying in a language that

5 you can understand?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You are about to start giving evidence

8 in this trial that has been instituted by this Tribunal against Radoslav

9 Brdjanin. Our rules require that before you give evidence, you enter --

10 you make a solemn declaration to the effect that in the course of your

11 testimony, you will be speaking the truth. It's the equivalent of an

12 oath. The text of the solemn declaration is contained in a piece of paper

13 which Madam Usher is going to hand to you. Please take that in your hand,

14 read that statement aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us

15 that you will be telling us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

16 the truth.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please be seated. And you're now

22 going to be questioned first by Madam Richterova, who is appearing for the

23 Prosecution. And she will then be followed, I don't know whether it's

24 today, whether that will happen today or tomorrow, she will then be

25 followed by Mr. John Ackerman, who is the lead counsel for Mr. Brdjanin.

Page 14932

1 Madam Richterova, you may proceed.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Examined by Ms. Richterova:

4 Q. Good morning, Witness. Good afternoon. Can you please --

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. Can you please state your full name?

7 A. My name is Senad Alkic.

8 Q. Where were you born?

9 A. I was born in the village of Doganovci, Donji Vakuf municipality.

10 Q. And when?

11 A. I was born on the 1st of February, 1960.

12 Q. You studied at the university of Sarajevo, is it correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Which subject did you study?

15 A. I studied at the school for political sciences at the national

16 defence department.

17 Q. And following the graduation, you became a high school teacher, is

18 it correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In 1984, you got a job with the municipal staff of the Territorial

21 Defence in Donji Vakuf, correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was your position in 1984, assistant commander responsible for the

24 organisation and mobilisation efforts of the TO?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14933

1 Q. And in 1989, you were promoted to commander of the TO of Donji

2 Vakuf?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. After we learn something about your background, I would like to

5 know something about Donji Vakuf. I will show you a map of Donji Vakuf,

6 if I can ask the usher, the map would be Exhibit -- Prosecution Exhibit

7 P1692. And we can see that the Donji Vakuf municipality consists of the

8 town of Donji Vakuf and some other villages. Can you tell us what was the

9 ethnic composition of the Donji Vakuf municipality?

10 A. The majority were Muslim, and then there were about 9.000 -- a

11 little over 9.000 Serbs, 13.000 Muslims, very few Croats, 600

12 approximately, and the remainder of the population declared themselves as

13 Yugoslavs.

14 Q. I will show you an overview of ethnic structure in a second. Now

15 let's stay with this map. Can you point at villages which had majority of

16 Muslim population, please?

17 A. The village of Torlakovac, the village of Prusac, Cehajici,

18 Karici, Korenici, the village of Oborci, that is the central part of

19 Oborci.

20 Q. And what about the town of Donji Vakuf? What was the ethnic

21 structure within the town itself?

22 A. I think that the Muslims were in majority with respect to the

23 Serbs. The ratio was approximately 60 to 40 per cent.

24 Q. Thank you. I am done with -- I would like to show you this

25 overview, and it is the only document which Your Honours do not have, and

Page 14934

1 I just lost it. It's Exhibit P58, and it says "overview of data on the

2 number and ethnic structure of population according to municipalities."

3 And I will show the witness -- if the witness would be shown the page 9 of

4 the B/C/S version? I can give you -- and you can see the name Srbobran,

5 is it the new name for Donji Vakuf?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When was this name used for the first time, approximately?

8 A. I think it was in 1993.

9 Q. And according to this list, we can see, as you correctly pointed a

10 minute ago, that there was a majority of Muslim population. It says 55

11 per cent, and Serbs, they had 38, and something, then we can see 1995, and

12 it says, Muslim, 81 persons, which is 0.9 per cent of population, now only

13 tell me very briefly, we will discuss it later, the population --

14 apparently the population left Donji Vakuf. When was it? When was the

15 first wave of people leaving Donji Vakuf?

16 A. The non-Serb population of Donji Vakuf started leaving sometime in

17 early April, 1992. The majority of the population, however, left the town

18 in May, around the 8th, the 9th, the 10th and the 11th of May, when they

19 left for Travnik and Bugojno. Most of them ended up in Bugojno.

20 Q. Thank you, I'm done with this document.

21 Now, we will start with the Territorial Defence. We heard that

22 you was the commander of Territorial Defence in Donji Vakuf. Can you tell

23 the Judges what were the main responsibilities of the TO commander?

24 A. The responsibilities of Territorial Defence commanders or the

25 municipal staff of the Territorial Defence included the training of the

Page 14935

1 reserve forces in the Donji Vakuf municipality and mobilisation of the

2 reserve force as well.

3 Q. TO, Territorial Defence, did you -- did you have in your

4 possession weapons?

5 A. The municipal TO had their own weapons and ammunition as well as

6 other quartermaster equipment, which was in the possession of the

7 Territorial Defence.

8 Q. And in 1990, where were the weapons stored?

9 A. Normally, the weapons were stored, together with the ammunition,

10 ever since these reserve units were established in the area of the Donji

11 Vakuf municipality, in the warehouse which was located just above the MUP

12 building in Donji Vakuf.

13 Q. Maybe I can use this map. Can you recognise on this map -- and

14 you can use my map -- if you could have a look, please, at the photo

15 number 4, is this the building where the weapons were stored until 1990?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour we went through the process of deciding

18 that we wouldn't put the names of the buildings on these so that the

19 witness wouldn't be led, and then she proceeds to lead the witness by

20 telling him exactly which one to look at and telling him what it is before

21 he's ever asked a question about it.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Objection sustained. Next question, Madam

23 Richterova?


25 Q. Next question is --

Page 14936

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Forget about that photo.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we leave the map?

3 Q. For how long -- this -- you said the weapons were stored in TO

4 warehouse. Were there some other places where weapons were stored, which

5 belonged to TO?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Were there any weapons in companies, in factories?

8 A. Up until 1989, a small part of the weapons were at the factories.

9 This was later returned to the TO warehouse.

10 Q. And now I would -- before I go on with the weapons in TO

11 warehouse, tell me, were there any military facilities in Donji Vakuf?

12 A. In Donji Vakuf, there were two facilities which were under the JNA

13 control. One was located in Daljan and the other one in Klade. The

14 latter had been abandoned by the JNA sometime in the 1980s.

15 Q. This Daljan, where was it located? Can you show us on the map?

16 A. Here.

17 Q. Can the witness put an X for identification of this Daljan

18 military facility?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can you just mark with an X the location,

20 please?

21 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And next to that X, can I ask you to put down your

23 initials, please?

24 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

25 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you. I'm done with the map.

Page 14937

1 Q. Witness, was there any time when the weapons would be moved from

2 the TO warehouse?

3 A. It was not moved until the transfer to the Daljan warehouse, which

4 occurred pursuant to an order of the district staff in Daljan.

5 Q. And when was it? Which year it was?

6 A. As far as I can recall, it was just before the elections, sometime

7 in 1990.

8 Q. In 1990, was it discussed at any meetings with your supervisors or

9 with the district TO, whether or not to move these weapons?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. With whom did you discuss it and where?

12 A. You couldn't really call it a discussion. The Territorial Defence

13 district staff issued an order at a meeting held in Bugojno. The TO

14 commander told us at the meeting that the weapons of the municipal staffs

15 of Donji Vakuf, Gornji Vakuf and Bugojno should be relocated to the Daljan

16 barracks.

17 Q. And this Territorial Defence district staff, when was it -- where

18 was it? I'm sorry.

19 A. In Zenica, and the meeting was held at the Bugojno municipal

20 staff.

21 Q. Were you given any reason for the transfer of the weapons?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was the reason?

24 A. The reason was that in case national parties should win the

25 elections, that is the SDS, SDA or HDZ, that they would not be tempted to

Page 14938

1 take these weapons and distribute them.

2 Q. I will return to this Daljan military facility, or Daljan

3 barracks. What was stored in this Daljan?

4 A. As far as I know, ammunition and explosives and ordnance were

5 stored in Daljan. There were very few weapons stored there.

6 Q. Whom this facility belonged to?

7 A. The facility belonged to the Yugoslav People's Army.

8 Q. And was there any particular unit or corps which would be in

9 charge of these barracks?

10 A. As far as I know, it was under the command of a Banja Luka unit,

11 of a logistical base or something of that kind.

12 Q. Do you happen to know who was the commander of the logistics

13 base?

14 A. I heard that it was Osman Selak.

15 Q. And who was the commander of -- in the Daljan barracks?

16 A. We called him an administrator, and it was Lieutenant Darko Savic.

17 Q. And now to follow the weapons, you stated that the weapons were

18 taken to Daljan barracks. How long these weapons stayed in Daljan

19 barracks?

20 A. As far as I remember, a year and a half, up to two years perhaps.

21 Q. And what happened then?

22 A. Then, at one point in time, we simply learned, or rather we were

23 told that the weapons had to go to Banja Luka, that they were again being

24 relocated from the barracks.

25 Q. Can you be now a little bit more specific about the time when you

Page 14939

1 learned that the weapons should go to Banja Luka? Which period of time we

2 are talking about?

3 A. As far as I remember, it was towards the end of 1991.

4 Q. And were these weapons really transferred to Banja Luka?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were you able to check whether these weapons are in Banja Luka?

7 A. Yes, on one occasion.

8 Q. And where in Banja Luka were they taken?

9 A. The weapons were stored in a JNA barracks in Banja Luka but I

10 cannot remember the name of the barracks.

11 Q. We already mentioned that there were elections in 1990, and it was

12 one of the reasons why these weapons were moved from the TO warehouse. Do

13 you know the results of the elections in Donji Vakuf?

14 A. Yes, I know.

15 Q. So can you tell us?

16 A. I know that SDA and SDS won the elections, but that other parties

17 also participated in the government with a smaller number of candidates

18 who became deputies at the municipal assembly.

19 Q. I would like to show the witness Exhibit P1700. It is a document

20 from January 30th of January, 1991, issued by Serbian Democratic Party of

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Donji Vakuf, and it says, among others,

22 "Proportional representation of the peoples and nationalities of Bosnia

23 and Herzegovina must be ensured in the assembly of the social, political

24 communities" and there are these two versions of distribution of power.

25 If you have a look at these two versions, can you make a comment

Page 14940

1 whether the -- at first the distribution was proportional or not?

2 A. It was, roughly.

3 Q. And you had the opportunity yesterday to have a look at this

4 document. Which of these variants -- versions, I'm sorry, which of these

5 two versions was the one which was at the end accepted?

6 A. I believe that ultimately, the final decision came closer to

7 variant 2.

8 Q. Now I will show you Exhibit P1701. It is a list of persons

9 selected and appointed by the Donji Vakuf municipal assembly. To your

10 knowledge, was -- were these people appointed to the municipal assembly?

11 A. These are not the people who were appointed to the municipal

12 assembly. These people were appointed by the municipal assembly to

13 certain offices.

14 Q. And does the offices correspond with the power distribution as

15 agreed?

16 A. They do, roughly, with the proviso that certain people do not

17 occupy the posts which they actually had, to which they were later

18 elected. What we see here is a draft.

19 Q. Under .7 is Senad Alkic. Were you approved for the position?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And can you see any names which weren't approved or didn't hold

22 the position as stated in this document?

23 A. I'll try, as far as I can remember. Mirko Zagorac did not

24 eventually become president of the executive board. Mile Ilic was the

25 secretary of the municipal Secretariat for National Defence. The rest of

Page 14941

1 the appointments correspond to this proposal.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you. I'm done with this document.

3 Q. You already confirmed that in 1989, you were -- you became the

4 commander of the TO. Is it correct that from that date, you started

5 drafting your diary?

6 A. I had kept my diary in a notebook even earlier, and I just

7 continued throughout the period when I was the commander to write

8 everything that was of interest and related to my new duty.

9 Q. And do you remember approximately when you started and when you

10 finished with your entries in this diary?

11 A. I've always kept a diary. This particular notebook which I made

12 available to you was finished when I stopped going to my job, that is the

13 end of 1992.

14 Q. And what was the purpose of this diary?

15 A. It was a working notebook of sorts. I used it as a reminder of

16 what I was supposed to do, how to carry out my regular tasks and duties.

17 Q. Did you -- did you also record issues which were discussed at any

18 meetings?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I have this diary here. There are

21 many pages of this diary. However, the Prosecution intends to tender into

22 evidence only part of this diary, and it is part which was translated and

23 the Defence has the full version of the diary in his possession.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you agree with that, Mr. Ackerman?

25 MR. ACKERMAN: I have the B/C/S version, full, and I have part of

Page 14942

1 it translated, just like she said, I think.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. It's not that I was questioning

3 it's just I wanted a confirmation from the Defence. Thank you.

4 MS. RICHTEROVA: So I intend to tender into evidence the part of

5 the diary which starts with ERN number 0207-2292 until 0207-2307, for

6 which translation is provided.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that bears absolutely no relationship to what

9 I have. The one I have is 0306-0158 through 0306-0167.

10 MS. RICHTEROVA: It is the translation of the document I just

11 stated, what I said was ERN number of the original document and so just

12 for the record I can state that the translation of the original document

13 is 0306 --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Does that make sense to you now.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, it does.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay we can proceed now, Ms. Richterova.

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honour. I would like to tender

18 into evidence this part of the diary under the number P1693.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: No objection, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


22 Q. Before I -- you can leave the diary with the witness. And until I

23 go through the diary thoroughly, I just want the witness to make comment

24 on the entry which is on the second page, which is marked 0207-2293, in

25 the original language, and in the translation, it is really the second

Page 14943

1 page, 0306-0159. And it says, among others, "Possibility of reviewing

2 weapons, possibility of returning some of the weapons." And headline was,

3 "Agreement with executive committee and municipal assembly presidents."

4 Can you tell us what were you referring to in these two entries?

5 A. This was an agreement reached between the President of the

6 executive committee, who was a Serb by ethnicity, and the president of the

7 municipal assembly, who was a Muslim. Bearing in mind that the weapons

8 were already in Banja Luka by that time, we were trying to reach an

9 agreement and to go there to inspect our weaponry, to also review the

10 possibility of getting a part of this weaponry back in order to be able to

11 place a certain number of Territorial Defence units into operation if

12 required.

13 Q. And did you get any weapons back?

14 A. No, we did not.

15 Q. Now I would change the subject for a while and go back to

16 Territorial Defence. Where this Territorial Defence sit? Where did you

17 sit?

18 A. I personally sat in the building of the municipal assembly of

19 Donji Vakuf on the third floor, in an annex to the building.

20 Q. And Territorial Defence, did you have any responsibilities towards

21 the municipal assembly?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you just briefly describe?

24 A. Since we were on the payroll of the municipal assembly, we had the

25 obligation of reporting to the municipal assembly about the implementation

Page 14944

1 of our tasks and duties concerning the resources that had been invested in

2 the purchase of weapons, military equipment, ammunition, et cetera.

3 Q. And you just said that, "We had the obligation of reporting to the

4 municipal assembly." Did you attend meetings of municipal assembly?

5 A. Rarely but I did sometimes.

6 Q. And did you attend meetings in 1990 -- towards the end of 1991,

7 beginning 1992?

8 A. I believe I attended those meetings and I knew their agenda and

9 the deliberations.

10 Q. And can you just briefly tell us what was the relationship between

11 Territorial Defence and the JNA?

12 A. Municipal TO staffs, Territorial Defence staffs, were technically

13 reporting to the district TO staffs, whereas district TO staffs were

14 subordinated to the republican TO staff. In that sense, municipal staffs

15 had nothing to do with JNA units, apart from possible coordination, which

16 happened only at somebody's own initiative, if it happened.

17 Q. And were members of JNA also members of the TO, either on the

18 republic or district level?

19 A. In the municipal TO staff, there were no active-duty military

20 personnel who used to serve in the JNA. In the district staff, there were

21 some, starting with the commander, his deputy, and some other officers.

22 There were people who used to be former JNA members and who served in the

23 republican TO staff. That goes for the district staff as well.

24 Q. And do you know what was their role within the TO?

25 A. Their role was similar to the one they had in municipal staffs.

Page 14945

1 They did the job as prescribed by the law for the units and staffs of the

2 municipal Territorial Defence.

3 Q. And can you be more -- can you elaborate on this, when you are

4 stating that they did the job as prescribed by the law?

5 A. That meant that the republican staff, district staff, and the

6 municipal staff, as the lowest instance, were responsible for the training

7 of reserve units of the Territorial Defence, also for carrying out

8 mobilisation and for the logistical support of those units in the course

9 of mobilisation and afterwards.

10 Q. And I will ask you before the adjournment just one last question.

11 When we were talking about these weapons which were in premises of all

12 kind of enterprises, all kind of companies, can you tell us what kind of

13 weapons were in possession of these enterprises?

14 A. We had weapons of older models, old M-48 rifles, semi-automatic

15 rifles, and the quantity of the weapons depended on the size of the

16 enterprise, so to say, and of the financial status of the company

17 concerned.

18 MS. RICHTEROVA: I think we reached the end.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Richterova, I thank you. Sir, we have to

20 stop now. We will continue tomorrow in the afternoon, when it's expected

21 that you will finish with your testimony in this Tribunal. You will now

22 be escorted.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, do you have a clue as to whether you

25 are receiving assistance tomorrow?

Page 14946

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour. I'll have somebody.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: You have a confirmation?


4 JUDGE AGIUS: I just wanted to confirm that with you.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah, no problem.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So that's it. We will adjourn until

7 tomorrow afternoon, 2.15. Thank you.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

9 1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

10 the 28th day of February, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.