1 Wednesday, 21 May 2003
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case number IT-99-36-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Mr. Brdjanin, can you
9 follow what I'm saying in a language that you can understand?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning to everybody. Yes, I
11 can follow and understand.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Good morning to you. Appearances for
13 the Prosecution?
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Good morning, Your Honours, Julian Nicholls with
15 Denise Gustin.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good morning to you.
17 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin?
18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Good morning, Your Honour, David Cunningham and
19 Barbara Baruch, along with Vesna Anic.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Any preliminaries before we bring in the witness?
21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: No, Your Honour.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So let's bring the witness in.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Mujanic. Could you please repeat
1 the same solemn declaration you made yesterday, to speak the truth, the
2 whole truth.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: RUSMIR MUJANIC [Resumed]
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Take a seat, please. Thank you.
8 Mr. Nicholls?
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Examined by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]
11 Q. Good morning, sir.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. Before we go on, I want to just clarify one point from yesterday.
14 Early on yesterday we were talking about the problems, the ethnic tensions
15 which were arising in 1991 and you spoke about a rally, this is on page 53
16 of the transcript, in Prnjavor and you said: In Prnjavor there was a
17 rally which was held by this guy, Zelenbaba, and he said sell your cow,
18 Buy yourself a weapon and they were singing ethnic songs and one could
19 hear them over the loudspeakers.
20 Could you tell us who Zelenbaba was and what his ethnicity was, if
21 you know that?
22 A. Zelenbaba was a Serb. I think that he was from Croatia, from the
23 SAO Krajina.
24 Q. Thank you. And when you say ethnic songs they were singing, can
25 you explain what you mean by that, whether there is -- what your meaning
1 is that they were singing ethnic songs at this rally, the significance of
3 A. They were in fact singing Chetnik songs.
4 Q. All right. Now, we talked also yesterday about the mosque in
5 Puraci which you saw blown up and also the mosque in the centre of Lisnja
6 which you saw burning. Did you ever hear anybody take responsibility or
7 did you ever hear who blew up and set fire to those two mosques?
8 A. I heard from other people that allegedly Veljko Milankovic said:
9 "I destroyed them and I will build them anew."
10 Q. And so just to be clear, you didn't personally hear Veljko
11 Milankovic say that, you heard that from other people; is that correct?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. And when was that?
14 A. That was, say, some 10 to 15 days later. That's when I heard it.
15 I was at the camp at the time.
16 Q. And who did you hear it from, if you remember?
17 A. I can't remember, but we were imprisoned and we talked among each
18 other, or when our families came, women and children, to bring food to us,
19 then we would talk to them and that's how we heard it.
20 Q. Okay. Now, going back, I just want to run through now the rest of
21 the period from your release from the sawmill, what happened after that,
22 until you eventually came to leave Prnjavor in December of 1992.
23 You were released from the sawmill at noon after having been held
24 there overnight and you went into Lisnja; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, did all of the population of Lisnja, which had been held at
2 the sawmill, return to Lisnja or did some of them go somewhere else?
3 A. Some went to the camp. They first came to the culture centre in
4 Prnjavor and then the following day, they were transferred to another
5 place, and then the rest returned back.
6 Q. And when you say "the camp," which camp are you referring to?
7 A. Sloga in Prnjavor, the shoe factory.
8 Q. Okay. And if you can tell me approximately what per cent of the
9 population returned to Lisnja and what per cent was taken to the Dom and
10 then to Sloga?
11 A. Well, about 300 people went to Prnjavor and the rest returned
12 back. Some stayed with neighbours in Prnjavor and some people had left
14 Q. Okay. And when you say that some people were taken to the Dom,
15 went to the Dom, did they go there of their own free will or were they
16 taken there as prisoners?
17 A. They were taken as prisoners.
18 Q. And which people were there -- taken there? Were these men and
19 women and children or which part of the population?
20 A. There were males aged 14 up to 60.
21 Q. Okay. Now, what personally happened to you? You said that you
22 were released, after your release you went into town. Were you taken back
23 into custody at any point after that? After your release from the
25 A. No. Later on, they released us to go home, and then sometime in
1 the afternoon, around 3.00 or 4.00, my neighbour -- I fell asleep and my
2 neighbour woke me up. She said get up, there is shooting all over. And
3 then we escaped to Konjuhovci. We stayed in various houses. I stayed
4 there for several days.
5 Q. All right. Do you know who was shooting? Could you hear the
6 shooting? Did you see the shooting?
7 A. From a distance, I saw troops. They had what we call SNB,
8 olive-drab uniforms. I also saw troops in camouflage uniforms shooting
9 and we simply had to flee.
10 Q. Did everybody flee the village again at this point?
11 A. Some remained there, hiding in houses.
12 Q. How long were you in Konjuhovci?
13 A. Two to three days.
14 Q. And what happened after that? Why did you leave Konjuhovci?
15 Where did you go after that?
16 A. I went back to Lisnja again, since I had livestock there.
17 Somebody had to take care of it. When I returned, we were told we had to
18 go to Prnjavor to surrender or else we would face problems with police
20 Q. Now, who told you this? Who made this announcement to you and to
21 the other people in Lisnja?
22 A. Meho Mujanic, who attended negotiations. Then the criminal police
23 came to our village. They had a list of people who had to report to the
24 police station in Prnjavor.
25 Q. Were you on that list?
1 A. I was.
2 Q. Now, during this time, up to this point, when were you told to
3 report to the police station in Prnjavor, in between that point and the
4 time, the few days, when you'd been released from the sawmill, was there
5 any resistance that you saw from the Muslim population in Lisnja during
6 those few days?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Now, did you go to the police station in Prnjavor? Did you obey
9 that order?
10 A. I had to obey it. Because of others, there were many women,
11 children, the elderly there. So we had to do as we were told or else
12 children would suffer.
13 Q. How many -- how did you get to the police station in Prnjavor?
14 A. We had a tractor. I drove the tractor to Prnjavor and then I left
15 it with a neighbour in front of his yard. There were many people in the
16 tractor-trailer. In fact it was full with people. We went to the police
17 station and from there, we were taken to the Sloga shoe factory in buses.
18 Q. Okay. We will talk about the Sloga in a minute. But if you know,
19 if you saw it, how many names were on this list of people who had to
20 report to the Prnjavor police station?
21 A. There were about 32, 32 men.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. And there was a young 14 year old with us.
24 Q. What happened at the police station before you were transported to
25 the Sloga factory?
1 A. There, in the hallway, we saw two soldiers; they had the SAO
2 Krajina insignia on their shoulders. They insulted us, cursed us, and
3 then they put us in another room, the police did, and there were
4 interrogations going on there; and after that we were transferred to
6 Q. Were there already men in custody in the police station when you
7 arrived there, or were the only people detained there the group that you
8 arrived with?
9 A. There were 32 of us there. We were taken to a room for
10 interrogation. We waited there for three hours. Whereas, in the prison,
11 in the solitary confinement cells, there were, I don't know exactly how
12 many people, but definitely not less than 10.
13 Q. All right. And when you said "prison," are you talking -- and
14 these confinement cells, are you talking about these cells at the police
15 station or is that a different detention facility?
16 A. The cells of the police station.
17 Q. Okay. Now, were you told by -- were you personally interrogated?
18 A. They did interrogate me but only upon my arrival at the Sloga.
19 Q. Okay. And how long were you and these other men held at the
20 police station before you were taken to Sloga?
21 A. They kept us there for three hours.
22 Q. All right. At any time were you told why you were being detained?
23 A. They didn't say anything to us. They didn't explain why we were
24 there. They simply said that they would put several questions to us and
25 then release us to go home but that's not what happened.
1 Q. When they put you on the bus, did you know where the bus was
2 going, where you were going to be taken?
3 A. We didn't know anything.
4 Q. Was there any kind of escort for the bus to prevent people from
5 trying to escape?
6 A. Yes. The police was there.
7 Q. All right. Okay. Now, tell me, tell us, if you can, what
8 happened when you arrived at the Sloga factory. How far away is that,
9 first of all, from the Prnjavor police station?
10 A. 700 metres, perhaps one kilometre.
11 Q. Okay. What happened upon your arrival at the Sloga factory?
12 A. We got off the bus. Then they opened up another building and put
13 us there. There were already people in that building.
14 Q. I'd like to show the witness P1796.6, please. That's a
15 photograph. This photo was shown to the witness last Sunday before his
16 testimony. We have a copy here if it's easier.
17 Can you take a look at that photo, sir - if it's easier you can
18 look at it to your right rather than on the monitor - and tell me if you
19 recognise that building.
20 A. Yes. This is the Sloga shoe factory and the shot is taken from
21 the other side, because the entrance is on another side.
22 Q. All right. Is that a fair and accurate representation of the way
23 that it looked when you arrived there in 1992 or is there anything
24 particularly different?
25 A. I didn't see this side here. I didn't. And then the other side,
1 the other side is where we entered the building.
2 Q. All right. But you know from living there -- so you didn't see
3 this view of the Sloga factory at the time you were taken there for
4 detention, but you recognise it from seeing it on other occasions? Is
5 that right? Just so I understand you.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm finished with that document.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
10 MR. NICHOLLS:
11 Q. All right. I'm sorry to have interrupted you with that photo.
12 Can you tell us now about what happened, you started to, when you arrived
13 at the Sloga factory, what happened to you and the other men, how you were
14 processed into that factory, the detention centre?
15 A. We got off the bus, they opened up the door, there had already
16 been some 100 people sitting in there, and they put us into that room as
17 well; and that's where we stayed.
18 Q. Okay. Now, who put you into the room? Who were the guards at the
19 Sloga factory?
20 A. The guards were policemen and they, the policemen, put us into
21 that one room. They locked us in and that's where we stayed.
22 Q. All right. And there were about 100 men in that room when you
23 arrived. Your group was put in there so your first day in the Sloga
24 factory, you were in a room with about 130 other men; is that about right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay. Can you describe the room to the Chamber, please. What was
2 in the room and how big was the room?
3 A. Well, perhaps I couldn't give you the exact square area but let's
4 say 10 by 12 metres approximately. There was nothing inside. That room
5 was vacant when we got there.
6 Q. All right. Could you just describe it, say, in comparison to this
7 courtroom we are in now, how much bigger or smaller it was if that helps
8 you rather than talking in numbers.
9 A. Well, something like this, perhaps a bit larger.
10 Q. Okay. And there was nothing inside the room. Do you mean that
11 literally, that this was just a completely square, empty room without any
12 chairs, tables, nothing?
13 A. There were two tables by the window and there was cardboard on the
14 floor on which we slept.
15 Q. All right. Now, how long were you held in the Sloga factory
16 before you were eventually released?
17 A. I was imprisoned for 36 days. I had to pay to get released.
18 Q. All right. And we will talk about your release. I want you now
19 to tell us about what those 36 days were like for you before you were
20 released and what the conditions there were. First of all, what was the
21 age range of the prisoners in the room you were in? What was the
22 youngest, what was the oldest man?
23 A. Say from 14 to 60 years old. The youngest one was 14, the oldest
24 was 60.
25 Q. What was the ethnicity or religion of all the people who were
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 detained in that room with you?
2 A. They were Muslims.
3 Q. Were these civilians or soldiers, as far as you could tell?
4 A. They were all civilians.
5 Q. And did you know many of these people? Were they neighbours?
7 A. They were neighbours, friends, relatives there.
8 Q. All right. Could you please tell me about what you were given to
9 eat while you were at the Sloga factory. What kind of food was provided
10 to you and by whom?
11 A. We didn't get any food from police. Sometimes police would allow
12 the villagers, women and children, to bring us some food, and that was the
13 only time we ate. When they want to let them in they would come in, bring
14 us food, and that was when we ate.
15 Q. And you, I think you told us, had seeing the way things were
16 going, had sent your family abroad earlier. Was there anybody to bring
17 you food? Did you have any relatives or friends who could bring food
18 specifically for you?
19 A. I didn't have anybody there, but for example my neighbour was
20 there with me, so whenever his son came to bring him food, he would share
21 his food with me or perhaps somebody else would share their piece of bread
22 with me and that's when I ate.
23 Q. How often were family members or citizens allowed to bring food
24 in? Could they bring it in, whenever, seven days a week or as often as
25 they liked or was that restricted in any way?
1 A. They were allowed to come at 10.00 every day except on occasions
2 when some of the policemen who were guarding us there were -- had lost
3 some of their relatives on the battle front. Then they would lock us in.
4 We had to keep quiet, not speak with anybody.
5 Q. And were you adequately, I'm talking about you personally,
6 provided with food? Was there enough for to you eat, having other people
7 you know share their food with you?
8 A. I didn't have enough, but I had enough to survive.
9 Q. Did you lose any weight while you were held there for those 36
11 A. Yes. I lost a lot of weight.
12 Q. What about water? Can you describe whether there was -- adequate
13 water was provided to you for drinking?
14 A. There was water but it was not always accessible to us.
15 Q. And what about your clothing? You were there for over a month.
16 Were you able to wash your clothes or have new clothes brought in or were
17 you given any clothes? How did that work?
18 A. Well, the clothes that I came in were the clothes that I left in.
19 There was no way for me to wash my clothes.
20 Q. All right. And let's talk about the space in the room. When you
21 first arrived, was there enough space for everybody to be comfortable
22 when -- during the day or when sleeping?
23 A. At first, we did not have enough room. We slept in the sitting
24 position, but later on, they opened up another room which was a bit
25 bigger. There were about 370 of us in that room but people would leave
1 and some new people would arrive.
2 Q. Okay. So initially there wasn't even enough room for everybody to
3 lie down at the same time but later on, that got better; is that right?
4 A. Yes. They opened up the second room so we split the -- all of us
5 split between these two rooms.
6 Q. And how long was it before the second room was opened?
7 A. After three days.
8 Q. Okay. You started talking about the numbers of people there,
9 people coming and going. Could you -- I know the numbers -- well, did the
10 numbers of people detained there fluctuate while you were there for those
11 36 days?
12 A. Yes. Children were released, for example, and they started
13 releasing children after six or seven days, after interrogation, but the
14 number didn't change because some were released but at the same time other
15 people were brought in.
16 Q. Okay. So what do you think, best -- I know you don't know
17 exactly, but what was the average number of people being detained there on
18 any given day during the 36 days you were there?
19 A. Well, the youngest was 14, the oldest was 60.
20 Q. I'm sorry, I don't think I was clear. What I mean is: How many
21 men were detained there because there were 132 at one point and I think
22 you said 387 later. How many prisoners were there?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: On an average.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 377 altogether.
25 MR. NICHOLLS:
1 Q. Thank you. You said there was cardboard on the floor and you
2 slept on that. Were you provided with any other sleeping facilities?
3 A. No. We didn't have anything else. There was not enough cardboard
4 for everybody.
5 Q. What was the floor made up that was under the cardboard, if
6 somebody did have a piece of cardboard to sleep on?
7 A. Concrete.
8 Q. Was there any medical care provided to prisoners while you were
9 there? In other words, if somebody needed a prescription or was ill or
10 wounded, did anybody see a doctor while they were there?
11 A. No.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: He needs to clarify this because obviously it makes
13 a difference if there were inmates that needed medical attention.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And if there was no one who needed medical
16 attention. So I suppose -- have you followed -- have you understood what
17 I said?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: In order to be able to tell us yes or no, you need
20 to know in the first place whether at any given time during those 36 days
21 that you were there anyone needed medical attention, asked for it, and was
22 given or refused medical attention. So I would suggest you start from
23 there. And my first question to you is: During those 36 days, as far as
24 you are aware, did anyone need and ask for medical attention?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I had a toothache and no
1 medical assistance was given to me, and the explanation was that there was
2 no water in town and I could not have my tooth extracted. And there was
3 another person whose name was Zoran, he beat up one of us on the head and
4 I saw that that person's head was dressed. That's what I saw on the
5 following morning. And this person's name was Alija. On the following
6 morning, this person was taken away and that was after I had seen his head
7 being dressed.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: So I would assume from your answer that while you
9 were not given the treatment that you asked for or the attention, medical
10 attention that you asked for, this other person that was wounded in the
11 head was given medical attention, at least before being removed away from
12 the camp?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't say for a fact that he
14 was seen by a doctor. All I can say is that in the morning his wounds
15 were dressed. I slept in another room, so I don't know what was going on
16 during the night, nor did I hear anything during the night or the previous
17 evening. All I could see was that in the morning his head was dressed.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Apart from your case and this gentleman's case, are
19 you aware of any other instances when inmates that were in your room or in
20 any of the other rooms in the Sloga factory asked for medical attention or
21 needed medical attention?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Nobody else asked to be seen by
23 a doctor.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, sir.
25 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
2 Q. Now, you said that you were interrogated once you got to the
3 Sloga. Can you tell us about that. When were you interrogated?
4 A. There was an office and a policeman would take us there. His name
5 was Drago Kalabic. He was the one who interrogated us. There were more
6 than one of them but there was one person called Petrovic, but I was
7 interrogated by this guy Drago Kalabic and we would stay in that office
8 for an hour or two hours. We would be interrogated for an hour or two
10 Q. How often were you interrogated? How many times?
11 A. Twice a day. Not all of us, but some of us would be taken into
12 that office twice a day.
13 Q. But personally, how many times in total, while you were held there
14 the 36 days, were you interrogated?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If you can tell me how many times you were interrogated while you
17 were held there the 36 days? How many times were you personally
18 interrogated? 10? 20? 2?
19 A. I was taken for interrogation on two days twice every day.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. And finally we had an agreement for me to give him some money in
22 order to be released.
23 Q. All right. We'll get to that. What kind of questions were you
24 asked during your interrogation?
25 A. The questions were: Are you loyal to the Serbian government? Why
1 do you have weapons? Why do you want to rebel -- although nobody was
2 rebelling. Why are you bothered by all this? And things like that. Some
3 of these questions didn't really make too much sense to me.
4 Q. During these interrogations were you ever told specifically why
5 you were there? Were you ever charged with a crime? Were you ever told
6 what you had done to deserve this?
7 A. Yes. I was told that allegedly I had not surrendered the machine
8 gun of the Territorial Defence; however, I wanted to be confronted with
9 Captain Nedjo. Later on, I saw Captain Nedjo and I asked him why he
10 didn't tell them that I had handed over the weapon. His response was that
11 he did give a statement saying that I had handed over the machine gun, and
12 he also said that he didn't know why I was being kept here.
13 Q. Okay. Were you ever interrogated anybody -- anywhere during those
14 36 days other than in a part of the factory? In other words, were you
15 ever taken to the SUP or anywhere else and interrogated?
16 A. Not me but there were people who were taken to the SUP building.
17 Q. All right. You talked about one man who was injured in a beating
18 and that later on you saw that he'd had some dressing put on his wounds.
19 Did you -- were people beaten in the Sloga factory, other than that one
20 incident you've told us about?
21 A. They were not beaten there but people who were brought from the
22 MUP, they were all black and blue, and they had bruises and cuts on their
24 Q. And is that after returning from interrogation?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Let me just ask whether any of those people who were bruised and
2 bleeding returning from their interrogation, did you see whether they were
3 bandaged ever?
4 A. No. They were not bandaged because they mostly had internal
6 Q. Okay. Now, other than the police who guarded -- you said were
7 guarding the factory, anybody else -- did any other officials or other
8 persons come into the factory to interrogate people or do anything else
9 with the prisoners in the factory? Anybody else come in from the outside
11 A. Yes. On weekends, soldiers would come from the front line and
12 they would shoot near the Sloga factory. Sometimes they would even arrive
13 with dies on their faces, with arms, and then they would come in,
14 threatening to kill us and things like that.
15 Q. How often did that occur?
16 A. Weekends were the worst times, that is Fridays, Saturdays, and
18 Q. And again, you may have answered this, I don't think so, while you
19 were there, did you know how long you would be detained? Did anybody ever
20 tell you, you're here for 36 days or you're here for about a month or did
21 you have any idea?
22 A. We didn't have -- we didn't know anything.
23 Q. While you were detained at the Sloga factory, did you do any kind
24 of work? Were you forced to work, either at the factory or elsewhere?
25 A. Yes. We would collect garbage in the town, and then when there
1 was -- there were exchanges of dead bodies in Derventa, there were 20
2 bodies in one pit. Then we excavated them, we had to put them in boxes,
3 and to prepare them for the exchange.
4 Q. And who guarded you when you were on these work details during
5 your detention?
6 A. The police.
7 Q. And was this just to be clear was this work voluntary or was it
8 something that you had no choice but to do?
9 A. Didn't have a choice.
10 Q. All right. Tell us, please, how you came to be released from the
11 Sloga factory?
12 A. Drago Kalabic asked me to come for interrogation. He said: "I
13 understand you're alone." He inquired where my children and wife were. I
14 said they were in Germany. He says: "Why aren't you in Germany?" I told
15 him: "Well, I'm here, aren't I?" And he says: "Okay, I can help you get
16 released, but I am building my house and I need some money." And that's
17 how he released me, on the following day I brought 300 German marks to
18 him. Altogether, I gave him about 600 or 700 German marks.
19 Q. And what was his official position, if you know? Dragan Kalabic?
20 A. He was a policeman in the crime department.
21 Q. And just let me see if I understand you. Was the release from
22 what you said on the understanding that you were going to go join your
23 family in Germany if you were released? Is that what you -- what you're
25 A. That's how he released me. He asked me to give him money. On
1 every day at 8.00, we had a call-up, and every day I would give him some
2 money, and then on one day he told me: "I can't keep you here. You have
3 to run away." I ran away. I found a bus driver. I gave him 1600 German
4 marks to give me a ride across the border. I was in the toilet all the
5 time. And that's how I crossed the border.
6 Q. All right. So this policeman told you the time had come for you
7 to leave; is that fair?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How long after you were released from the Sloga factory was it
10 that you left Prnjavor hiding in this bus?
11 A. I had work obligation for three or four more months. I can't say
12 exactly. We were felling trees in the forest, and we had to drive logs to
13 the fighters' home. There were some people who also worked on the fish
14 farm there, cleaning the ponds and then ...
15 Q. All right.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls, I'm just curious, was the Sloga
17 factory guarded day and night or left unguarded? Could you walk in and
18 out of the place without difficulty?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It was guarded by the police.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: How could you escape without being noticed or
21 stopped or even shot at?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was very difficult to escape.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: But was it made easy for you to escape? Because it
24 seems that when you were told now it's time to go, you just escaped.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: I think I can clear --
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13 English transcripts.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was released. I was
2 released. Every day we had a call-up. In the village, everybody had to
3 go into the village to be present during the call-up, in the village.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: And that's how -- okay this needs to be clarified.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: I can clear that up, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
7 MR. NICHOLLS:
8 Q. You paid these 600 or 700 marks to the policeman, Kalabic, to get
9 you released from the Sloga factory?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Following your release, you stayed in Lisnja until approximately
12 December 20th, 1992?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. During that time, where were you living, between your release and
15 when you finally left Prnjavor?
16 A. I was in my brother's house because my house had burnt down, and I
17 was in my brother's house all the time up to the 20th of December, 1992,
18 and I had work obligation. Every morning at 6.00, we had to be down
19 there, and there was a man from the military department who recorded our
20 presence; and then we did not have to report to -- for call-ups at 8.00.
21 Q. Okay. And was the work obligation, was that -- how many days a
22 week did you have to do this work obligation?
23 A. Every day, without any breaks.
24 Q. And if you can just -- you started to but just tell us what kind
25 of work obligation you personally were required to perform, what kind of
1 jobs, once you'd been released from the Sloga factory.
2 A. I had to do the felling, chopping woods, and if the area was not
3 accessible to a tractor, then we had to form a line and we had to
4 physically carry the logs down to the village from the forest.
5 Q. Now, did you ever work on any property owned by Veljko Milankovic?
6 A. Yes. While we were still in the camp, we were cleaning the road
7 that leads up to his house on Vucjak.
8 Q. All right. And then just to be very clear, the policeman who told
9 you that you ought to leave Lisnja or Prnjavor and join your family, was
10 that the same policeman that you had paid money to in order to be released
11 from the Sloga factory? Is that the same person?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, when you left and you were hiding in this bus which took you
14 away, what property were you able to bring with you? How much of your
15 property from your former life in Lisnja were you able to bring with you
16 when you left?
17 A. Nothing. I had just one jacket. Everything else had burned
18 down. I had a jacket, a T-shirt, a pair of shoes, and those were the
19 things that I had on when I was in the camp.
20 Q. Did you have to sign any documents forfeiting your property,
21 homes, other property, in order to leave?
22 A. Personally, I did not, because I escaped with the help of Drago.
23 That was the arrangement. He helped me to leave Prnjavor. I was supposed
24 to wait by the fish pond for the arrival of that bus that was on its way
25 to Munich.
1 Q. You said personally, you did not. Did other people have to sign
2 such documents forfeiting or transferring their property?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls, I don't know. We've heard enough
5 about this from at least 50, 60 other witnesses. Do you need
6 reconfirmation from this witness that didn't have to sign one himself?
7 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour, this is my last question. His
8 cousin had to sign these documents.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Then ask him whether he knows of anyone who had to
10 sign them and that's it.
11 MR. NICHOLLS:
12 Q. Did anybody from your family have to sign documents leaving their
13 property in order to leave the municipality?
14 A. Yes. There was Naim Mujanic, my relative, who signed a document
15 forfeiting all of his property to the Serbian republic.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. I have no further questions.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Before we proceed with the
18 cross-examination, Mr. Cunningham, do you have any further communications
19 from Mr. Ackerman regarding the Bosanski Petrovac list of documents?
20 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I do, Your Honour. Mr. Ackerman has advised me
21 that he wishes to stand by those objections and asks the Court to rule.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's hand down the decision before we proceed
23 any further on this matter.
24 The Trial Chamber has seen the Prosecution -- the Defence
25 objection to the OTP proposed exhibits, list of which appears attached to
1 the objection itself. The Trial Chamber in the first place refers to
2 Exhibits P1818, P1820, P1821, P1822, and reserves its judgement, its
3 decision, after having heard evidence from the Prosecution identifying the
4 source of each of these four documents.
5 The decision of this Trial Chamber is also reserved with regard to
6 P1832, after hearing further submissions from the parties.
7 As to the remaining documents, they are all being admitted with
8 the understanding that the probative value of each and every one of them
9 will be determined at the right stage, together, and with other documents,
10 and taken into consideration all the circumstances of the case.
11 And this is in line with previous decisions of this Trial Chamber,
12 particularly those taken in the initial period of this trial, between
13 admissibility and tenderability and probative value of documents at this
14 stage of the trial. Thank you.
15 Yes. Now, Mr. Mujanic, it's the turn of the Defence now to
16 cross-examine you. I'm just going to remind you of the words I told you
17 yesterday. You have an obligation towards both parties here to answer
18 truthfully and fully each question that is put to you, irrespective of
19 where it's coming from. The fact that it's coming from the Defence does
20 not mean anything, it should not mean anything to you. Your duty is to
21 answer each and every question. Madam Baruch will be cross-examining you.
22 MS. BARUCH: May it please the Court.
23 Cross-examined by Ms. Baruch:
24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mujanic.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. My name is Barbara Baruch and I represent the accused in this
2 case, Mr. Brdjanin. The first thing I'd like to talk to you about is
3 statements that you have previously given before you came into this
4 Tribunal, and I have seen one written statement that was signed by you,
5 and it was dated October 21st and 22nd of 1991. Do you recall that
7 MR. NICHOLLS: It's not 1991.
8 MS. BARUCH: I'm sorry.
9 Q. 2001. Do you recall that statement?
10 A. Could you please repeat it.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Madam Baruch -- usher, please, could you
12 hand him a copy of his statement? I think you need to get that from the
13 Prosecution and not from the Registrar because it's not an exhibit. You
14 need to show him the English version too because that's the one we are
15 mostly interested in.
16 MS. BARUCH:
17 Q. Do you recall giving that statement, Mr. Mujanic?
18 A. Yes, I gave that statement.
19 Q. Okay. I don't -- are your initials on the B/C/S version? Did you
20 initial it or sign the B/C/S version?
21 A. I signed it.
22 Q. Okay. Because I look at the English version, not being familiar
23 with your language. Did you get a copy of that statement after you gave
25 A. No, I did not receive a copy.
1 Q. Have you given any other statements, any other written statements,
2 besides that one?
3 A. I gave once in Germany a statement, and twice in Bosnia, in Sanski
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?
6 MR. NICHOLLS: I just want to clarify about the statements. I
7 don't think the witness signed a B/C/S copy of his statement. When we
8 take statements, they are generated in English, it's read back by a
9 translator. The witness agrees that what was read back is accurate. They
10 sign that. Later on, we can't do a simultaneous translation, the
11 statement is translated from English into B/C/S, the witness doesn't sign
12 that copy. They only sign one copy which is the English original.
13 MS. BARUCH: I understand, Your Honours, that that's what was told
14 me today, but that directly contradicts what the witness says or at least
15 my interpretation.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's get down -- give me a copy of the B/C/S
17 version and we cut it short because there is either his initials on it or
18 not. And it's as simple as that. Yes, let me see it. But on the English
19 version we always have it but we don't even get the -- show it to the
20 witness. Ask him whether he sees his initials there and then he would
21 need to tell us why, before he said that he initialed also the B/C/S
22 version or whether it was a misunderstanding or a mistake on his part.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't quite understand that. I
24 know that I signed the statements that I gave but not in Bosnian language
25 but rather in English.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Chapter closed. Next?
2 MS. BARUCH:
3 Q. Mr. Mujanic, if you don't understand my questions, would you
4 please just indicate in some manner to me and I will try to make them
5 clearer. Okay? Thank you.
6 Now, you also said that you gave a written statement in Germany?
7 Is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you give that statement -- did you sign that statement?
10 A. I signed it, yes. There was an interpreter there in Germany, and
11 I signed that statement but I don't remember what language it was in, the
12 statement was also read out to me and then I signed it.
13 Q. Did you get to keep a copy of that statement?
14 A. I did not receive copies in Germany, no.
15 Q. Did that statement also concern the same events that you talked
16 about here in this courtroom?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And to whom did you give that statement?
19 A. I can't remember. That was a long time ago.
20 Q. Do you know if --
21 A. I know there was a man there.
22 Q. Do you know if it was a German man or a Bosnian man?
23 A. I think he was a German.
24 Q. Okay. How did you get to know to go to give that statement?
25 A. I lived as a refugee in Germany. I worked there, and I don't know
1 how it happened but police came to my apartment once to tell me that I
2 should report for an interview. And I came there and saw that there was
3 an interpreter there and then I gave a statement.
4 Q. Okay. Now, you also told me that twice in Sanski Most you gave a
5 statement. Is that the same statement you have in front of you when you
6 said twice in Sanski Most, or was that a different occasion?
7 A. What we didn't finish on the first day, we completed on the second
8 day, regarding that statement of mine.
9 Q. Well, that's why I asked you the question, because I noticed in
10 the copy of the October 21st and 22nd 2001 statement it actually says two
11 different dates. So when you said you gave two statements in Sanski Most,
12 is it what you have in front of you now?
13 A. I gave a statement on the one day, and on the second day. We had
14 to do it during two days because we couldn't complete it all in one day.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me intervene because I don't think he's
16 following what you're asking. You mentioned earlier -- what Mrs. Baruch
17 is asking you is precisely whether this statement that you say you gave on
18 two consecutive days in Sanski Most is the statement that you gave to the
19 Prosecutor of this Tribunal or whether it's some other statement to some
20 other authorities that you are referring to.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is this statement, the one that
22 I gave.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's because earlier on, you said, when you were
24 asked whether you had given other statements, you said that you had given
25 a statement in Germany and also in Bosnia. Is that correct?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That was twice, or rather over
2 two days. We didn't manage to complete it in one day.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
4 MS. BARUCH:
5 Q. Okay. I take it that you don't or weren't living in Sanski Most
6 at the time but you were asked to go there to give your statement; is that
8 MR. NICHOLLS: What is the relevance of that to anything?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll see. We'll see. Wait, it's too early for me
10 to stop Mrs. Baruch asking this question.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I gave a statement in Sanski
12 Most, in the village of Tomina; that's where I gave my statement.
13 MS. BARUCH:
14 Q. Can you tell me who asked you to go there to give your statement.
15 A. They came to my house. I can't remember their names but two women
17 Q. Were they people from the Office of the Prosecutor, one of them,
18 and one an interpreter or was it an official from Bosnia who came to your
20 A. That was an official from the Prosecution and an interpreter.
21 Q. But the statement wasn't given at your house, it was given at
22 Sanski Most; is that correct?
23 A. In my house.
24 Q. Okay. I'm understanding now, that you actually gave your
25 statement in the place that you live to people who came to your house, so
1 you did not have to go to them, correct?
2 A. I gave it in my house because I had no means of transportation to
3 go to Sanski Most, and the weather was quite bad. I also had to work at
4 the time and that is why we did this over the duration of two days.
5 Q. Okay. And before you gave your statement, did you talk about what
6 your statement would involve with anybody? I'm not talking about the same
7 day, to those women. I'm talking about before the date that you gave your
9 A. I didn't think about that at all. Nobody instructed me what to
10 say. I know what was going on.
11 Q. Okay. And Mr. Mujanic, at any time has anybody talked to you
12 about how you should testify or what things you should emphasise to this
14 A. I don't need anybody's assistance regarding that. I know what had
15 happened and if somebody asks me I will tell them about it.
16 Q. Okay. There came a time when you spoke with Mr. Nicholls, I
17 believe, the Prosecutor who has been questioning you before me, and you
18 spoke with him before you came to this Court, is that correct, before you
19 came in this courtroom?
20 A. I simply recollected -- I didn't need to refresh my memory but we
21 simply went over my statements.
22 Q. Okay. You went over this one statement that you have in front of
23 you or did you also go over your German statement?
24 A. No. He put questions to me, I answered them.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: For the record, we have no German statement.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
2 MS. BARUCH:
3 Q. Mr. Mujanic, when you were talking with Mr. Nicholls before coming
4 to this courtroom, were you shown any documents, pictures, videotapes, or
5 statements by anybody else?
6 A. I saw this statement in Bosnian. I've read it. Questions were
7 put to me. I answered them. And that was all. And then I also saw
9 Q. Okay. So just so that I understand and the Court understands, the
10 only thing that you saw before coming to this court when you were talking
11 with Mr. Nicholls is photographs and your own statement; would that be
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Because yesterday, Mr. Nicholls had you looking at a
15 report, a military report, and I'm wondering if you saw that before you
16 came into this courtroom. Have you ever seen that before?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When did you see that?
19 A. Was it two days ago?
20 Q. When you were talking privately with Mr. Nicholls; is that
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. Now, you've said something about the fact that you were not
24 interested in politics, and I'd like to know if at any time you've been a
25 member of any political party, not merely back in 1991 or 1992.
1 A. I was not. I wasn't involved in that. I had other things to do.
2 Q. So I take it that you never were a member of the Communist Party?
3 That would be correct?
4 A. No.
5 Q. I think you were agreeing with me, correct me if I'm wrong, and I
6 take it that you were never a member, never not even today, a member of
7 the SDA? Is that also correct?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay, you were agreeing with me as well. Have you reviewed the
10 information that you would be giving with any authority from Bosnia?
11 MR. NICHOLLS: I think he's actually answered that.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: He hasn't answered that, no.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat your
15 MS. BARUCH:
16 Q. Okay. My question was: Have you reviewed what your testimony
17 would be, what you knew, with any authority from Bosnia?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MS. BARUCH: Your Honours, yesterday there was a map that had a
21 legend on it that Mr. Nicholls used and I thought that Mr. Cunningham had
22 taken it home. Mr. Cunningham believes that I took it home. I don't have
23 it and I'm wondering if I could just see it for a minute.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Probably Mr. Ackerman has it.
25 MS. BARUCH: He's easy to blame. Okay.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's --
2 MS. BARUCH: Really, if the witness could look at it on the ELMO,
3 that would be fine.
4 Q. And I'm wondering if you have seen that map before yesterday,
5 Mr. Mujanic?
6 A. I'm not 100 per cent sure. I simply don't remember.
7 Q. Okay. The reason that I'm asking --
8 A. I think I have seen it but I'm not entirely sure of it.
9 Q. The reason that I ask you that, and maybe you can make it clear to
10 me, that somebody has gone through that map and made a legend, we call it,
11 and colours, to indicate the ethnicity of various villages. But when you
12 were testifying, I think it's the village called Galjupovci, it's hard for
13 me to read, which is designated by the legend as being a Muslim village
14 and I think you told me that was -- us that it was a mixed village; is
15 that right?
16 A. Yes. There were Serbs there, Croats. It's a mixed population
18 Q. Okay. So I just wanted to know or to make certain that although
19 you were vouching for the correctness of the names of the villages, you
20 really had nothing to do with designating the ethnicity on those maps --
21 that map; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. I don't see Vucjak on that map, and the reason I think I
24 don't see it is perhaps it's too small. Do you know where Vucjak is and
25 is it on that map?
1 A. No. You can't see that. No. You can't see it on the map.
2 It's -- there is a road leading to Derventa and then from that main road,
3 there is a road going to the right towards Doboj and Tesanj.
4 Q. Okay. And is that the place where you were working on Veljko
5 Milankovic's property that you talked about during your testimony?
6 A. Yes. We built -- we worked on building the road towards his
7 house, and then another group came to do the same thing, to perform the
8 same work.
9 Q. That was while you were staying at -- detained at Sloga; is that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Do you really know the ownership of the property that you
13 worked on or you're just associating it with Mr. Milankovic?
14 A. The soldiers who guarded us there talked about it.
15 Q. Talked about the property being owned by Mr. Milankovic or
16 controlled by him? Which?
17 A. Yes. That was his house, that his mother allegedly was born
18 there, and we went to clear that road because it was all badly neglected
19 so that was the road leading to the house where he was born.
20 Q. Okay. I'm understanding that now. And you told us at the
21 beginning that you had a pretty successful business, at least it sounded
22 like that to me, with 50 employees. That was disturbed by the war in
23 Croatia. Was it a very successful business?
24 A. Yes. My brother and I worked as partners. We were the owners of
25 the company, we worked together. We had our own saws and the business was
1 very good.
2 Q. And you told the Tribunal, Mr. Mujanic, that you had 50
3 employees. Were those 50 full-time employees?
4 A. Only -- we hired them only as needed. We had ten people who
5 worked full time and were fully insured, and then, if needed, we would
6 hire seasonal workers, if we needed to do some extra reforestation and
7 things like that.
8 Q. Okay. I just want to ask you for a minute about the ten full time
9 employees. Were they hired at Lisnja village?
10 A. There was no work in Lisnja. We worked only in Croatia.
11 Q. Okay. So the ten full-time people, they weren't local people who
12 you knew from Lisnja?
13 A. Some people were from Lisnja, some people were from Kotor Varos,
15 Q. The ethnicity of the ten full-time people, were they all Muslim?
16 A. Two were Serbs. They were from a village in the vicinity of
17 Vrbanjci. So they were Serbs and the rest were Muslims.
18 Q. And all of those ten people were people you had to lay off because
19 of the war in Croatia; is that right?
20 A. I had to. How else would I be able to pay for them? We -- there
21 was a lot of work that we had completed but were unable to collect money
22 for that.
23 Q. I'm understanding how difficult it was during wartime and a period
24 of conflict to continue a business, Mr. Mujanic. I don't want you to
25 think that I'm not. And I'm wondering if you noticed in Prnjavor itself
1 that established businesses were also having difficulty, continued to
2 keep -- continuing to keep all of their employees employed during 1991 and
3 1992? Did you notice that?
4 A. I rarely went to Prnjavor. I know that people were laid off,
5 those of non-Serb ethnicity. There were several neighbours of mine who
6 were laid off.
7 Q. Were most of your friends and all of your relatives non-Serbs?
8 A. There were Muslims, my neighbours, for example, Hasan Zukandzic,
9 also used to work in Metalic [phoen] and was fired. Not only him but Edib
10 Mujanic, who was a teacher, he was also fired. Huso Korkaric was director
11 or rather mayor of Prnjavor, and was a teacher, he was also fired. So
12 there were a number of people.
13 Q. Did you know any Serbs who were let go as well?
14 A. I didn't know any.
15 Q. Okay. Mr. Mujanic, I need to ask you, then, were you friendly
16 with any Serbs whom you would know if they had difficulties with their
18 A. I didn't know any.
19 Q. Okay. So what you're telling this Tribunal then is about the
20 people that you were friendly with and what you knew happened to them; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, you were asked about when the relationship between the Serbs
24 and the Bosniaks became tense yesterday, and you started talking about
25 1992. I think about the time that you sent your wife and children off to
1 Germany, but Mr. Nicholls directed to you tell the Court about a rally in
2 Prnjavor. I think we know that you did not attend the rally; is that
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. But you must have known someone who attended the rally because
6 you've told us about the rally, including the types of songs that were
7 sung there. So who told you about that rally?
8 A. My neighbours told me about that, people who were there in
9 Prnjavor. There was a place near my house called Jure, and this is where
10 we talked about that. A colleague of mine said: I had been to Prnjavor
11 and he told me about it.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to stop here. We will have a 25-minute
13 break and resume immediately thereafter. Thank you.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Just one preliminary, Your Honour, briefly. We may
17 have to move some witnesses around next week. I've asked counsel if the
18 next scheduled witness is going to start today, and we don't know. The
19 next witness, if he only has tomorrow, will likely go into Monday. We
20 didn't foresee that, which I'm just trying to let the Court know. We may
21 have to move the scheduled Monday witness in order to continue and keep
22 the Tuesday witness.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: How long did you anticipate your
24 examination-in-chief to last with the next witness?
25 MR. NICHOLLS: With the next witness --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: We've only got tomorrow -- if he starts tomorrow,
2 we've only got tomorrow.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Longer than that for sure.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the in-chief?
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: You need more than one sitting for --
7 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll have to check with Ms. Korner, but I think in
8 total she said he will definitely not be done with his testimony tomorrow,
9 if he doesn't start until tomorrow morning.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Then my answer is obvious, I mean you will need to
11 reschedule the list of witnesses for next week for sure.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: I was just trying to give the Court some notice.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: The only thing I can do is I can limit your
14 examination-in-chief for just tomorrow's sitting, not extendable.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: We would prefer that you not do that, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the option I give you.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. We'll re schedule if we have to.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I also want to know, therefore, whether we are
19 sitting tomorrow as suggested yesterday, morning right through 4.00 in the
20 afternoon, or whether it's going to be just a morning sitting like
22 MR. NICHOLLS: I think we've agreed to all day on Thursday,
23 tomorrow, as we stated -- as we talked about, and the next witness will
24 take all day tomorrow in chief, if he starts.
25 MS. BARUCH: I will tell you that I promise the Court, and I will
1 keep my word, that Thursday we will go the whole day. But yesterday, I
2 thought I had arranged through Mr. Lawrence that I can speak with my
3 client for one half afterwards but apparently the scheduling of bringing
4 prisoners is not subject to the Court and so I had to wait and then go to
5 detention and then come back and then start work. I didn't go to sleep
6 until 10.30 last night and I'm wiped out and that was with working.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't look it, Madam Baruch.
8 MS. BARUCH: I appreciate that. And I'll keep that in mind. But
9 that was with working half a day. So I will keep my word about Thursday
10 but I have very severe feelings that it's totally impossible for me to
11 keep in touch with my client and communicate with him or any of the
12 lawyers, and also to be prepared when they come to court. So I have
13 indicated that to Mr. Nicholls as well.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't single yourself out, Mrs. Baruch, because
15 until quite recently, that's how it used to be.
16 MS. BARUCH: I understand.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Sittings used to start at 9.30 in the morning and
18 finish at 4.30 or 5.00 in the afternoon. And that's how it went and when
19 it was like that, cases lasted less, shorter period of time. There is a
20 difference of about one hour or one hour and a half per day. So --
21 anyway, we will take it up. I take it that tomorrow we'll sit right
22 through 4.00.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
25 MS. BARUCH: May I proceed?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Baruch, please go ahead.
2 MS. BARUCH:
3 Q. Mr. Mujanic I hope you can help me by making sure that you
4 understand my questions so that we can both help the Court and make this
5 go as quickly as possible, okay? That's my intention.
6 Is that a yes?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Sorry I forgot to ask you the town in Germany where you gave your
9 statement. Could I just have the name of that town?
10 A. Kirhajm Tek near Stuttgart.
11 Q. Thank you. In the police station there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. And you started telling me about a colleague, a friend
14 of yours, who lived I think in Urije and you talked about the rally in
15 Prnjavor from 1991. Can you tell me the name of that colleague, please?
16 A. Edib Mujanic.
17 Q. Were there other people there who had that discussion with the
18 both of you?
19 A. Yes. There were some ten of us there.
20 Q. So ten people came and had a discussion about what the one
21 colleague had heard; is that correct?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. And how long did you talk about that event, please?
24 A. It was just a story of how things were going in Prnjavor, because
25 I personally didn't go to Prnjavor, not just ask me, people avoided going
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 there because there were drunken soldiers or reservists roaming around so
2 all of us avoided going there. We relied on the stories told by people
3 who did go.
4 Q. Would it be correct that you just generally know about the music
5 at the rally? You don't really know which particular songs were played or
6 what in particular was said? Would that be correct?
7 A. I said that my colleague had told me about the Chetnik songs and
8 he also quoted Zelenbaba saying that every Serb should sell their cow and
9 buy a rifle.
10 Q. So your colleague attended that rally? Is that what you're
11 telling us?
12 A. Yes, yes. He was there. Not at the rally. He just stopped by
13 the Hotel Nacional where that rally was taking place in front of the
14 department store. He was passing by and he stopped to see what was going
16 Q. Do you know how long he stopped for?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mrs. Baruch, let's proceed. I mean, I won't allow
20 you to go into such minute details which have little or no relevance. I
21 mean it's -- go ahead with the next question, please.
22 MS. BARUCH:
23 Q. Mr. Mujanic --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: He stopped enough to be able to tell the witness the
25 words which he told him and that should be sufficient.
1 MS. BARUCH:
2 Q. Can we talk about Mr. Milankovic, Mr. Mujanic, for a few minutes?
3 How many times have you personally seen him?
4 A. I never saw him before the developments in Lisnja on that day, and
5 then I heard somebody saying: "This is the guy called Milankovic." And
6 that's when I saw him for the first time.
7 Q. Yes. And my question was: How many times have you seen him
9 A. I saw him on that day and I believe that I saw him once again when
10 we went to Prnjavor by tractor. We were passing by a bus stop, and I
11 believe that his -- he was wearing plaster.
12 Q. I'm sorry, is that a bandage of some sort, plaster?
13 A. Yes. I wasn't that close. I didn't dare look straight into his
14 eyes, but I threw a glance and I believe that it was a bandage of some
15 sort or something like that.
16 Q. And those are the only two occasions on which you've seen
17 Mr. Milankovic; is that correct?
18 A. I believe so.
19 Q. Do you see --
20 A. My -- I may have seen him later on but I can't remember that.
21 Q. Well, let me tell you, I've written down that you say you saw him
22 at the sawmill, you saw him casually just an averted glance when you were
23 in Prnjavor, and those are the two occasions that you have told me you
24 remember, correct? That you remember now.
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I'm wondering if he came to
2 the Sloga detention facility on an occasion when he spoke with all of the
3 people there and told you there that you shouldn't worry but that you
4 would be safe, you wouldn't be hurt. Does that refresh your recollection
5 at all?
6 A. I apologise. I saw him once again when we were working close to
7 his house, when we were clearing the road. That was another time when I
8 saw him. I don't remember him saying that nothing would happen to us.
9 That is something I can't recollect.
10 Q. At Sloga, how about do you recollect him being at Sloga at all and
11 speaking with all of the detainees?
12 A. I don't remember having seen him at Sloga.
13 Q. That's fine. I'm just trying to see what you recall.
14 I assume you're not saying he never came there, you just don't
15 remember such an incident; is that right?
16 A. I don't think he ever came there.
17 Q. Okay. That's your recollection. Back in 2001, when you gave a
18 statement, you said that when you were doing forced labour in the birth
19 village of Mr. Milankovic, he came, he told us that he had blown up the
20 mosques in Lisnja and he said he was sorry that he had to destroy that.
21 Does that refresh your recollection?
22 A. I said that Milankovic had said that he had destroyed the mosque
23 and that he himself would rebuild it.
24 Q. Okay. Because I'm looking at the language --
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, maybe we should follow our practice.
1 Give him a copy of his statement in his language if she is going to
2 refresh his memory with it.
3 MS. BARUCH: I think he has --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry about that.
7 Do you still have the copy of your statement, Mr. Mujanic? Can I
8 have a copy of it in the Serb -- B/C/S?
9 MS. BARUCH: I've been told that the Court is far ahead of me in
10 reading B/C/S.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: More or less.
12 MS. BARUCH: Yes.
13 Q. It's in the English on page 7 that I'm referring to.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Go to page 8, please. The third paragraph before
15 the last, from the bottom, and it starts "radnu" [B/C/S spoken]. Keep
16 reading it. And the last two sentences, one starting with "rekao" [B/C/S
17 spoken], et cetera, he said he was sorry that he had to destroy them.
18 Do you remember saying those words to the investigator?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
20 MS. BARUCH:
21 Q. And now Mr. Mujanic, you remember the incident when he apologised
22 for that? And I think you just told us, Mr. Milankovic said he himself
23 would rebuild that mosque; is that right?
24 A. Yes, I remember that.
25 Q. So now I'd like to go back to the sawmill incident because from
1 reading your statement, I got the impression that Mr. Milankovic was very
2 careful and solicitous of the women, that when they were frightened by
3 what was occurring, he let them go into the restaurant so that they could
4 feel safer. Would you agree with that?
5 A. Yes. He allowed them to go into the restaurant. The door had
6 been broken in so the women and the children were allowed to go into the
8 Q. And that was by his direct instruction, correct?
9 A. Yes. The women and children entered the restaurant and that's
10 where they spent the whole night, in the restaurant.
11 Q. And Mr. Mujanic, the Prosecutor gives us information as they get
12 it, and I have a supplemental information sheet that tells me you
13 indicated to Mr. Nicholls when you spoke with him that when he,
14 Mr. Milankovic, ordered the women and children into the restaurant of the
15 factory or ordered that they be allowed to go in there, he also,
16 Milankovic also said: "Nothing is going to happen to you."
17 Did you hear him say that?
18 A. Yes. That's what he did say.
19 Q. Thank you. And when you saw Milankovic at the sawmill, was he in
20 a uniform or was he dressed in civilian clothing?
21 A. He wore a uniform.
22 Q. Did you ever see him at the Dom Kulture?
23 A. Never.
24 Q. Okay. And when he was at the sawmill and wearing a uniform, can
25 you describe what the uniform was like? Was it a camouflage uniform?
1 A. It was a camouflage uniform.
2 Q. And the colour of it, please? If you remember?
3 A. It was a multi-coloured uniform, predominantly green but there
4 were other colours as well.
5 Q. And I assume, because I've heard, that he had adopted or adopted a
6 certain patch that would have symbol of a wolf on it; is that right? Was
7 that on his uniform as well?
8 A. Yes. A white wolf.
9 Q. Okay. And how would you distinguish or can you tell me how that
10 uniform was different from what you described in your statement as a JNA
12 A. The JNA uniform was olive-drab, grayish uniform, whereas his
13 uniform was a camouflage, a multi-coloured uniform.
14 Q. Okay. And when Mr. Milankovic was up at the sawmill, were there
15 other men in similar uniforms as his, that multi-coloured camouflage
16 uniform with the wolf on it?
17 A. Yes. There were others in the same uniform. It was his army, his
19 Q. So that was my question, the question in my mind yesterday. Were
20 all of the troops that you saw there, the troops who were wearing the
21 uniform of Milankovic, with the white wolf symbol on the sleeve?
22 A. There were also police officers there, so not everybody wore that
23 same uniform.
24 Q. Can you tell me what the police officers were wearing?
25 A. They wore blue police uniforms.
1 Q. Okay. And I think you said there were also some troops there at
2 the sawmill from a different town, and maybe somebody can help me. It
3 started with an L, like Laris -- can you help me with that? A unit from a
4 different town.
5 A. No. There were troops from Laktasi but they came from a different
6 side. Lisnja was completely encircled.
7 Q. Oh, so the Laktasi troops, they were not with you at the sawmill?
8 A. No. Lisnja was completely encircled.
9 Q. So they would have been on the other side of Lisnja from where you
10 were. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes. There was an officer with them, I don't know who he was.
12 Q. Okay. Can you help me understand this, then, Mr. Mujanic? You
13 were about 2.5 kilometres away from your village, Lisnja, which you
14 could --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- see from where you were? You could see the skyline and perhaps
17 you could see the first buildings, but I think you told us yesterday that
18 you couldn't see maybe the streets or what people were doing inside the
19 village. Would that be correct?
20 A. There were no people there, and one could see 60 or even up to 70
21 per cent of Lisnja. Obviously you couldn't see every street, and you
22 couldn't tell every single house, but you could see a lot of the village.
23 Q. Help me here, I'm trying to understand. I know you weren't up --
24 or were you up very high so that you were looking down at the village from
25 where you were?
1 A. No. We were at the foot. The village was a bit higher so you
2 could -- from down there, you could see the entire village which is uphill
3 on a plateau, and you could have a good view of it from down there.
4 Q. Okay. And the troops from Laktasi, could you actually see the
5 troops from Laktasi on the other side of Lisnja from where you were
6 staying at the sawmill?
7 A. No. I couldn't see them. But at 12.00 when we returned to
8 Lisnja, I saw the troops and later on I learned those were troops from
10 Q. Okay. Now I'm understanding better. And you also said that there
11 were some police officers there, and some JNA officers or soldiers. The
12 JNA soldiers or at least that's how you referred to them in your
13 statement, in the English translation, were they standing with you at the
14 sawmill as well or was there only the Wolves of Vucjak soldiers with
15 Milankovic with you at the sawmill?
16 A. There was an officer there, and there were police officers as
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. And nobody else.
20 Q. So the interpretation of your language that I've just been given
21 says there was an officer there, meaning a, one, JNA officer there; is
22 that correct?
23 A. That is correct. He was an officer with a higher rank. I don't
24 know where from.
25 Q. Did you see -- you said he was of higher rank. Did you see
1 insignia, special insignias on his uniform? Is that how you know that,
2 Mr. Mujanic?
3 A. Yes. A lot of stars and stripes. A yellow stripe. And since I
4 served in the army myself, I believe that he was a major. I cannot be
5 sure because the insignia and those stars and stripes changed in the
7 Q. And I think that you indicated -- thank you for that information.
8 But I think you also indicated either in your statement or in your
9 testimony that they were communicating with others, that they were
10 speaking in codes and you could not understand that. Did you watch
11 somebody speak on a radio or walkie-talkie or some instrument?
12 A. Yes. They carried out conversations using a Motorola. I did not
13 hear what the officer said. I only know that Milankovic asked the officer
14 to bring the multi-rocket launcher and the recoilless gun to that site and
15 that was approved by the officer.
16 Q. When you said "to that site," you meant a site at the sawmill or
17 away from the sawmill?
18 A. That place is left, to the sawmill. There is another elevation
19 from which the multi-rocket launcher and the recoilless gun opened fire.
20 Q. Okay. And when you told us yesterday there were about 50 men who
21 were in the vicinity of the sawmill, are you talking about 50 Milankovic
22 wolves and police officers?
23 A. Yes. There were about 50 Milankovic's wolves and there also
24 police officers aligned by the road.
25 Q. Can you remember about how many police officers there were there?
1 A. I don't know. I wouldn't be able to tell you. There were quite a
2 few of them but how many, I wouldn't know.
3 Q. Now, I think you told us that you heard Milankovic give the Hodza,
4 who you identified in your statement as a man with the first name Jusuf,
5 some permission to take sometime to go back to Lisnja to try to get some
6 men from Lisnja to come over to the sawmill; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. So all of the first people who went to the sawmill, those were the
9 peaceful people who were obeying the instruction that had come over the
10 loud speaker, "Go up to the saw mill," but there were some people who
11 initially did not go up to the sawmill; is that correct?
12 A. Yes. There were people who had been working in the field and they
13 were not aware of anything. There were also infirm, elderly people, and
14 there were also people -- like I said in my statement, there were some
15 lads, some 30 of them, who collected the weapons without the ammunition,
16 and they had stayed behind and then the Hodza went back to talk them into
17 joining the others at the sawmill and the Hodza was given 30 minutes to do
18 that. That was the deadline. And if he didn't manage to do the task,
19 then the shelling would start. That was -- that was said.
20 Q. Okay. So just working from what you've just told us, did you
21 actually see yourself the Hodza come back with 30 young men who were
22 bringing weapons with them to the sawmill site? Did you see that?
23 A. The Hodza was returning in his car, and the people were on foot,
24 walking towards the sawmill. They were throwing their weapons into the
25 fields and as they were walking downhill, the troops would be there and
1 they would beat them on the heads and on their backs.
2 Q. And these men who were throwing weapons down into the fields, did
3 they actually go up to the sawmill or were they diverted to some buses?
4 A. As they were walking downhill, shelling started, and the troops,
5 Milankovic's troop met them, they beat them up, they put them on a bus,
6 and they took them to Prnjavor.
7 Q. So if you could answer my question, were they diverted directly to
8 the bus so that they didn't get up to the area of the sawmill where you
9 were? Would that be correct?
10 A. We were on the left side, and there was a place where wheat was
11 exchanged for flour and that's where the bus was, and as they arrived,
12 they would be loaded on to that bus and finally they were taken to
13 Prnjavor. That's what happened.
14 Q. Okay. And was that one bus?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And I think you said that the shelling already had started as the
17 Hodza was driving back and the men were walking down the hill; is that
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, we've heard about those men before from your statement --
21 strike that. I don't -- I don't want to leave Milankovic for a minute.
22 At any time, did you see Mr. Milankovic drunk or shooting guns?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Has anyone alleged that?
24 MS. BARUCH: I believe that the report that the witness was
25 permitted to read described that as Mr. Milankovic and his group of
1 people. So I just want to find out if this witness --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead.
3 MS. BARUCH:
4 Q. At any time did you ever see Mr. Milankovic drunk or shooting
6 A. That's not what I said. Neither did I see him drunk.
7 Q. Okay. And at any time in your experience, did you ever see people
8 who you recognised as Milankovic's men, perhaps by their uniform or in his
9 presence, who were drunk or shooting guns? Did you ever personally see
11 A. I didn't see them shooting but I did see Tito Potok drunk. He was
12 drunk. And he set on fire the house of Ifet, and then he said: Look at
13 what the green berets have done to you.
14 Q. Okay, I'm sorry, I must have confused you. I'm -- in your entire
15 life experience, have you ever seen people aside from Tito Potok who may
16 have been a Wolf of Vucjak? Have you ever seen Milankovic's men so that
17 you could identify them as his men, drunk and shooting?
18 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't think you confused him. He answered the
20 MS. BARUCH: I'll fix that.
21 Q. Tito Potok, he was the man who asked you to fix the -- hot wire
22 the Mercedes, right? At the sawmill?
23 A. He didn't ask me to. He said: "You have to start the Mercedes.
24 You have to start the engine." And then I said to him that I would look
25 around to see if I could find somebody who knew how to hot wire the car.
1 I went around, wasn't able to find anybody, and then he started looking
2 for me in order to kill me. I heard that from --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: You told us the story already. It was a very simple
4 question. You were asked to identify this man as the one you had referred
5 to before with regard to the Mercedes, that's it. You should have
6 answered just yes.
7 MS. BARUCH:
8 Q. If you could listen to my question, that's the information I'm
9 really looking for. This man Tito Potok, was he wearing a Wolves of
10 Vucjak insignia on his uniform?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And you knew him from before that day, because you knew his
13 name; is that right?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Oh, so that night you didn't know his name? And someone told you
16 later who he was?
17 A. He said it himself, as he was sitting by the fire, that his name
18 was Tito Potok.
19 Q. Okay. And this man, that night, and that day that you were at the
20 sawmill, this particular man was drunk, correct?
21 A. Yes. That evening, he was drunk.
22 Q. Okay. And I think in response to Mr. Nicholls' question, I think
23 you said that Mr. Milankovic's men had set up checkpoints in 1991. Was --
24 was that near his village of Vucjak?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And had they done it not as a member of the armed forces, not as a
2 member of the police, but just as a paramilitary group, a group of men who
3 got together to play soldier, they set up their own checkpoint? Is that
4 how you meant it?
5 A. I know that they set up checkpoints, one couldn't pass through,
6 everybody's identity was checked.
7 Q. That checkpoint that you know about, that was the one near Vucjak;
8 is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Would it be correct then also that you don't know of any
11 other checkpoints that particularly Mr. Milankovic's men set up? Would
12 that be correct too?
13 A. I don't know about the other checkpoints. I just know that there
14 were checkpoints around our village.
15 Q. But the checkpoints around your village, didn't your TO unit set
16 up such a checkpoint?
17 A. Yes. But we were not there.
18 Q. Your unit set it up and you never participated in that checkpoint?
19 A. Later on, it was the Serbs who held that checkpoint, when Lisnja
20 was set on fire. At that time, we couldn't pass through if we didn't have
21 our IDs on us, regardless of the fact that they knew who we were but they
22 still wouldn't let us through.
23 Q. I'm sorry, because I'm convinced that in your statement, which you
24 have in front of you, that there -- you said in your statement that your
25 TO unit was -- had set up and manned a checkpoint also, previous to the
1 sawmill incident. Is that not correct?
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Can she refer him to the part of his statement.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: That was yesterday, I think.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: I thought she was referring to his written
6 JUDGE AGIUS: He said it yesterday and just a couple of minutes
7 ago he said something to that effect too.
8 MS. BARUCH:
9 Q. Do you recall that your TO unit, when you were a member of it, did
10 that as well?
11 A. I know that I went and patrolled along the road. We had patrols
12 in the village, and I know that there was a checkpoint there but that was
13 when Lisnja was torched.
14 Q. Well, how about on page -- in the English, it's on page 3, and
15 it's the first, second, third full paragraph down, and I will try and
16 perhaps with Judge Agius's help, we can find where in your statement you
17 talked about before -- before this incident at the sawmill, your TO unit
18 was stopping cars and checking them at the checkpoint by Lisnja.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: I have to say I don't see that in the English
21 MS. BARUCH: I think it's on page 3, and the full paragraph down,
22 but there is --
23 Q. It does not matter what's in the statement, Mr. Mujanic. If your
24 testimony today is that your unit, before the sawmill incident, never
25 detained cars, driving in the area, that's the answer I'm looking for.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: This is a mixed question. She was asking him about
2 his TO unit setting up a checkpoint; that did not appear in his
3 statement. There is nothing I see on the page that he cited about his TO
4 unit setting up a checkpoint. Whether they stopped anybody is a different
5 issue from manning a checkpoint. So I think that needs to be clear for
6 the witness.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think what Mr. Nicholls has just stated, you need
8 to take into consideration, Madam Baruch, and rephrase your question
10 MS. BARUCH: Okay.
11 Q. In your written statement it says in English, during 1991, in the
12 village Mravica, the TO stopped a car and recovered weapons and explosives
13 from the trunk. Was that your TO unit?
14 A. The entire Territorial Defence was under one command, so we had
15 reports on what was going on in Lisnja, in Mravica, Konjuhovci, and so on.
16 Q. Okay. So when you talked in your statement about 48 people from
17 the TO unit that you were a part of, all were Muslims except for five
18 Serbs, was that your unit?
19 A. No. That's not the same unit. They were also members of the
20 Territorial Defence but that of Mravica, whereas we were in Lisnja.
21 Q. Now I'm very concerned because confused. On page 3, in English,
22 and I'll try to find it, it says: "At this time the TO was called up" --
23 on page 3, the first paragraph -- "Of the 48 people all were Muslims
24 except for five Serbs. The recruiting department of the JNA of Prnjavor
25 sent me an official call-up paper." Was that not to you personally?
1 A. Well, before that, in our village, there was a meeting to see --
2 to select people who were calm, not prone to drinking, and then a list was
3 compiled and it was sent to the military department and then Meho
4 Jasarevic, he signed it, and they issued call-up papers and then the
5 weapons were brought.
6 Q. Can you give me some idea of the date that that occurred. Was it
7 in 1991 or in 1992, in April?
8 A. You mean the weapons, when the weapons were brought?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: No, when the call-up --
10 MS. BARUCH:
11 Q. When was the call-up?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: -- took place.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was in 1991. I don't know the
14 exact date.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And in the first half of 1991 or in the second
16 half? It has been suggested to you that we are talking of April, 1991.
17 If it's 1991.
18 MS. BARUCH:
19 Q. I think the witness corrected me that the machine gun was taken
20 back in April, so it would have to be before April of 1992. Can you give
21 us some idea of when you were called up? Was it the first half or the
22 second half of 1991?
23 A. I think it was in the first half.
24 Q. Okay. And when you were called up, weapons and two machine guns
25 were distributed, that is, rifles and two machine guns were distributed to
1 your 48-member TO group, correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And each of the men received a rifle or firearm. I think you said
4 that they were M48s; is that right?
5 A. Yes. There were M48 rifles and two machine guns.
6 Q. And each of the members, each of the 48 people who were called up
7 got a gun, correct?
8 A. No. 46 of them got rifles and then there were two machine guns.
9 Q. Oh, so two of the people didn't get rifles, those two people got
10 machine guns; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you one of the people, Mr. Mujanic, who got a machine gun?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already stated that. He's confirmed it on more
14 than one occasion. He also said how many bullets, how many rounds he had.
15 MS. BARUCH: Because I'm confused a little.
16 Q. I think you said in your statement that when it came time for the
17 collection of the gun, you didn't turn in a M48. That's where I got the
18 impression that you also were given a M48 rifle. Was that a wrong thought
19 on my -- that I had?
20 A. I know that they came to get machine gun, I was issued a machine
21 gun. And later on, there came about the surrender of M48 rifles.
22 Q. And you never had possession of one of those rifles? Is that what
23 you're telling us?
24 A. I did not have them.
25 Q. Okay. So you're given these weapons in the beginning -- in the
1 first half of 1991, when you're called up, and were you told that your
2 job, as part of this call-up, was to wear your uniforms and patrol the
3 Lisnja area?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And when you were patrolling the area - and I'm not only speaking
6 about you but I'm speaking about your whole unit of the 48 people who were
7 called up - one of the things that you would do would be to stop
8 suspicious cars; is that correct?
9 A. Yes. Or for example people who were drunk, who had weapons, we
10 had to confiscate their weapons to ensure that there was order.
11 Q. And to make sure people were not transporting arms, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And I bet it's pretty hard to tell from looking at the
14 outside of a car whether or not the person inside it is transporting guns,
15 so would you stop those vehicles that you did not know, that you had no
16 reason to believe should be in the area, and check those cars?
17 A. Well, for example, the vehicles that were not familiar to us, we
18 would stop them, or if we thought that those people whom we knew, such as
19 neighbours, Serbs, Muslims or whoever, might have something in their car.
20 Q. And when you stopped those cars, the people you didn't know, or
21 the people you had suspicions about, you would ask for their
22 identification, correct?
23 A. No. We would ask to inspect the car, the trunk, to see what was
24 in the car, what was being transported, if they had nothing in it we would
25 wish them a safe trip and that's it.
1 Q. And you never asked them to show you even a driver's licence or
2 some little piece of identification of who they were?
3 A. If we didn't know them, then yes, we would ask for IDs. If we
4 knew the people, then we wouldn't. In that case, we would simply check
5 the contents.
6 Q. Okay. So then yesterday, when you talked about at other
7 checkpoints that only non-Serbs would be stopped at, is there room in your
8 mind, Mr. Mujanic, for the concept that those guards would be stopping and
9 checking the people they did not know? Or had no suspicions about?
10 A. Well, on the checkpoints at the main road, all vehicles were
11 stopped, suspicious vehicles, people. That's my opinion. We would stop
12 people on the roads. The checkpoints that were outside of Lisnja were
13 manned by Serbs and they would always stop us and ask for our IDs.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar?
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please go ahead.
17 MS. BARUCH: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm receiving a transcript on a monitor but not on
19 the laptop.
20 MS. BARUCH:
21 Q. Okay. So Mr. Mujanic, what you saw on the main roads, manned by
22 people you believe were Serbs, is that they would check, they would stop
23 every car and ask every car for their identification; is that true?
24 A. I didn't see that personally, when Milankovic and others were
25 stopping people, but that was the normal procedure at the time.
1 Q. Now, I think we understand that you're Bosniak and that that would
2 fall into the classification of non-Serbs. Would it be -- would it then
3 follow, Mr. Mujanic, that what you could personally observe was that when
4 some checkpoint stopped you and that your friends who you've told us were
5 mostly Bosniaks as well, they would tell you that they were stopped at
6 checkpoints but that you don't have any personal knowledge of whether a
7 stranger, unknown to a checkpoint guard who happened to be Serb himself,
8 you don't have any personal knowledge of those -- whether those people
9 were stopped. Isn't that true?
10 A. I didn't know that, but at the time, everybody was stopped,
11 regardless of who they were at that time.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you. When you say "at that time," I assume that
13 you're referring the Court to 1991, all the way through 1992, before the
14 sawmill incident. Would that be correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Then later on it was different.
18 Q. Later on, after the sawmill, pretty close in time to that, you
19 were in Sloga for more than a month, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, yesterday, and it might have been a translation error, when
22 you were telling the Court about the TO unit, the one that you were called
23 up in, my translation said that there were 40 members. But when I looked
24 at your written statement, I saw that you had written 48 members. When
25 you wrote it, you were correct, or when you signed the written statement,
1 it was 48 members, wasn't it?
2 A. Well, I didn't know the exact number myself but it was between 40
3 and 48.
4 Q. So what you're telling us today is even when you said the 40
5 members you didn't know the exact number. When you said -- when you
6 signed the statement that said 48 members, you didn't know the exact
7 number. Both of them were guesses; is that right?
8 A. I wasn't guessing. I know that it was about 40, 40 something.
9 Q. The reason that I ask you that is I think there is pretty big
10 difference between a unit that has 48 people, five of which are Serbs, and
11 40, five of which were Serbs. But we can pass that --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you better pass it, Mrs. Baruch, because the
13 Trial Chamber simply doesn't agree with you that there is much difference.
14 MS. BARUCH: Okay.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go ahead.
16 MS. BARUCH:
17 Q. Were the five Serbs, one of them is Captain Nedjo; is that right?
18 MR. NICHOLLS: I just checked the transcript from yesterday and he
19 didn't say there were exactly 40, he said there were around 40 of us
20 altogether --
21 MS. BARUCH: I think we have been told it's irrelevant.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go ahead.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Regardless I want to correct words she was putting
24 in his mouth from yesterday.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
1 MS. BARUCH:
2 Q. Mr. Mujanic, the five Serb members, one of those five was Captain
3 Nedjo; is that right?
4 A. We didn't count them and he was separate, he was for the Muslim
5 part of Lisnja and the settlement of Lisnja but there were some TO members
6 on the main road as well, in the village alone there were 40 or 48 of us,
7 together with those five Serbs.
8 Q. Okay. Then the other five Serbs, they were just TO members, just
9 of the same rank as you; is that correct?
10 A. Yes. In the same place.
11 Q. And there were Muslims, at least n 1991, who were even -- who even
12 had more authority than Captain Nedjo. For example, in your statement,
13 you told us that the call-up order came from Banja Luka, from a Muslim
14 named Meho Jasarevic, correct?
15 A. No. The mobilisation was for the TO, and when we were supposed to
16 go to Croatia, that's when the order came. Captain Nedjo showed us a
17 paper and said: "This has just arrived from Banja Luka. We have to go at
18 least for a day to look to see what it's like at the battlefield."
19 Q. Did you do that?
20 A. We didn't want to go.
21 Q. And so you refused to go?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry. I just want to correct something for the
24 record. The statement does not say that Meho Jasarevic was from Banja
25 Luka. It says he was from Lisnja.
1 MS. BARUCH: Sorry, thank you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
3 MS. BARUCH:
4 Q. So was it your entire TO unit then or just you that refused that
5 mobilisation, Mr. Mujanic?
6 A. It wasn't the mobilisation. We refused to carry out the order to
7 go across the Sava River to the front in Croatia.
8 Q. But other than that, as a TO member, you followed the orders that
9 you were given?
10 A. We did. But we didn't want to go and wage the war, and shoot at
11 people, regardless of who those people were.
12 Q. Okay. When you got that mobilisation order, then, did that mean
13 that you were a full-time TO officer or member? Full time, that's what
14 you did.
15 A. Yes. That was my full time obligation, to be in the village, and
16 we did not want to move anywhere outside the village.
17 Q. Okay. And I think you corrected me before and said that there
18 were 46 M48 rifles. I need to ask you something about the rifles because
19 yesterday you said, I think, that half of them didn't work, and I think in
20 your statement you said something like seven or eight didn't work. Can
21 you tell me if, when it was working, that was a good rifle? If it
22 worked? It was one that could shoot bullets and you could be used --
23 could be used for defence or whatever one would use a rifle for?
24 A. These rifles were not in the proper working order. They couldn't
25 be cocked up and on one occasion, we had a target practice on Pavlovo
1 Brdo. We were supposed to fire three bullets into the target but we
2 couldn't because they were out of order and there was a promise that they
3 would be fixed but it never happened. When we were in our -- in the
4 culture centre, that was our headquarters, that's where we kept all those
5 rifles that were out of order and those who had to stand guard, those who
6 were doing shifts, they were the ones who were given those very few rifles
7 that were in a good working condition.
8 Q. Okay. On page 3 of your statement, in Serbo -- in B/C/S, the
9 third paragraph down, I think that last sentence, which I'll probably
10 murder your language in, says [B/C/S spoken]. Does that mean seven or
11 eight didn't work?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So if 46 rifles are given out, we have about 39 that according to
14 your statement were working, with about 48 men in the TO unit. I count
15 that as a pretty formidable force. Do you not think that that many men,
16 with those many guns, would be --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Baruch, you seem to forget most of the time
18 that there is no lay jury in this trial. We are all professional judges
19 and we are not impressed by questions like the one you have just put.
20 MS. BARUCH: Well, then, perhaps the witness can help me
22 Q. You said that one night there was some shooting in the air and
23 that people were singing songs and you did not go to investigate. Were
24 you there that night?
25 A. I was in a patrol, and I did hear the singing and the shooting.
1 Q. And how big is a patrol, please?
2 A. There were four of us there.
3 Q. Okay. And none of the four of you went to investigate that
4 matter; is that correct?
5 A. We didn't dare to.
6 Q. Could you tell from the voices about how many people were there?
7 A. No. I could not have guessed that. But in any case, I heard
8 several voices singing; how many, I don't know.
9 Q. Okay. And you also said something about one time your TO unit
10 arrested a Bosniak soldier who was shooting up in the air. Did you do
11 that or was it one of your compatriots, your colleagues?
12 A. We did that.
13 Q. That includes you personally, correct?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. You told us, when Mr. Nicholls was questioning you, about military
16 trucks that were on the main road between Banja and Prnjavor, filled with
17 ammunition that were probably Serbian army trucks. Did you know who was
18 in that trucks actually? Did you have actual knowledge of that?
19 A. No. I can't tell you exactly, but I know it was the Serbian army.
20 Q. And you knew that from the uniforms?
21 A. Of course.
22 Q. But would it also be correct that you did not know what they were
23 carrying in those trucks that were driving on the roads?
24 A. The only thing that could have been on the trucks was ammunition,
25 because it was escorted by the troops and by helicopters.
1 Q. So because you saw military trucks with troops and helicopters
2 overhead, you made that assumption, correct?
3 A. There were other trucks behind which were not covered, and I did
4 see boxes like the ones that are used for the transport of weapons and
5 ammunition. That's how I concluded that all of the cargo was ammunition.
6 Q. Did you ever personally see anybody shooting from those trucks?
7 A. Not personally, but I heard from the people who lived by that
8 road, and I also saw that some windows were broken, and I also saw bullet
9 holes on some of the walls of those houses.
10 Q. Okay. I'd like to turn now to your statements about the turning
11 in of weapons in Lisnja. Yesterday when you were testifying, and also
12 this morning, you spoke without giving any dates of the turning in of
13 weapons. In your statement, you indicated, I think, that in April was
14 when Captain Nedjo came and asked for the machine gun from you, April of
15 1992. Does that sound correct to you?
16 A. Yes. That's when I returned my machine gun to Captain Nedjo.
17 Q. And that was before what you described in your statement as a
18 written order to turn -- to surrender weapons to the police in Prnjavor;
19 is that correct?
20 A. Yes. It was before that that I surrendered my machine gun.
21 Q. Okay. And from reading your statement, although it's hard, and I
22 have to do a lot of guessing, I think it was in May of 1992 that -- maybe
23 in the middle of May of 1992, that you heard about the first order which
24 you described as a written order to turn in weapons to the police station
25 in Prnjavor. Would that be correct?
1 A. Are you talking about hunting rifles?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I take it Madam Baruch, that you are referring
3 to the last paragraph on page 3 of the written version of his statement,
4 and that is limited to hunting rifles.
5 MS. BARUCH:
6 Q. Yes, sir. That was in May of 1992, and in fact, it does say
7 that. It says in the beginning of May 1992, there was a written order.
8 Did you ever see that written order?
9 A. No. I didn't see it. It lasted for two or three days, and we
10 wanted these hunting rifles to be collected as soon as possible, handed
11 over as soon as possible, so as to avoid any possible problems. That's
12 what we decided to do.
13 Q. Okay. When you say it lasted about two or three days, the order
14 as you understood it, required hunting rifles to be turned in within three
15 days; is that right?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. And although you didn't see it, this order was communicated to
18 you. Who communicated that order to you?
19 A. Enver Gvozdjar and other people attended the meeting at which it
20 was said that all the hunting rifles should be turned over.
21 Q. Would that have been a large meeting of the people or maybe only
22 the men from the village of Lisnja?
23 A. No. It was a meeting in the restaurant called Europa. And that's
24 where the meeting was attended also by a security captain, our
25 representatives were there, and this is the place where it was agreed that
1 the weapons should be handed over. This is the information that we
2 received, and according to that information, whoever had hunting rifles
3 were supposed to hand it over and take it to Prnjavor.
4 Q. I'm sorry, I think you said Europa. I just -- the only reason I
5 need the name of the place is I'm trying to find out if you were present
6 at that meeting.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: I think he's already said a couple of times that he
8 was not.
9 MS. BARUCH: I think he said he didn't read the written order; it
10 was conveyed to him.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: But he referred to this yesterday too.
12 Give us your answer, please. Were you present at this meeting in
13 the Europa restaurant?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I wasn't there.
15 MS. BARUCH:
16 Q. Okay. So somebody gave that information to the people at the
17 restaurant and then somebody from the restaurant transmitted that
18 information to the other people in Lisnja. Who told you?
19 A. Mirso Kobaslija, Enver Gvozdjar -- Enver Gvozdjar is also a hunter
20 and he was the one who communicated the information to other hunters. I
21 also received that information, somebody -- I was told that because I had
22 my brother-in-law's hunting rifle, so I also handed that over.
23 Q. Okay. And so as this information trickled down to you through
24 those people, you were told all hunting rifles had to be turned in so you
25 took your brother-in-law's guns. And by the third day, as communicated to
1 you, you brought that gun -- those guns, I think you said two of them, to
2 Prnjavor. Would that be correct?
3 A. Yes. It would be correct that I did take them there.
4 Q. Did you confirm the information with your captain from the TO so
5 that at least you had some information that it was a reliable direction to
6 bring the guns there? Did you confirm that with Nedjo?
7 A. No, I didn't. But we had our representatives, Enver Gvozdjar and
8 Mirso Kobaslija, who communicated the information to us. Obviously we
9 trusted that information, given to us by our people and we took the
10 weapons where we were supposed to take them.
11 Q. Okay. And I'm assuming, tell me if you know I'm wrong, that over
12 that three day period, people would go when it was convenient for them to
13 turn in these rifles, these hunting rifles; is that right? You happened
14 to go on the third day.
15 A. Well, we all of us got together, got into a truck, collected the
16 weapons, and handed them over.
17 Q. How many of those people went to Prnjavor, actually themselves,
18 then? See what I'm trying to find out is whether you as a group of
19 representatives collected all of the hunting rifles and brought them to
20 Prnjavor or each person collected their own and went themselves.
21 A. Each person, each hunter, everybody who had a licence, was
22 supposed to hand over their own weapons, because they were issued with a
23 receipt for the weapons that was handed over.
24 Q. I understand that. When you went that day to Prnjavor, did you go
25 in your TO uniform?
1 A. No, I did not.
2 Q. And you went with a bunch of -- with several other people. Were
3 there a lot of people there when you were turning in the hunting rifles of
4 your brother-in-law or your brother?
5 A. Yes. There were troops there with the SAO Krajina insignia.
6 There were also policemen there. They lined us up in a single file. They
7 instructed us to go into a room where we handed over the weapon. We were
8 issued with a receipt. And then they would -- then we would go back.
9 Q. Okay. This SAO Krajina, is that a place in Croatia?
10 A. Yes. I believe that it was on the territory of Croatia.
11 Q. And you saw some troops there in that uniform with the SAO Krajina
12 thing who were hassling you or making comments to you, but they didn't
13 hurt anybody, did they?
14 A. They didn't hurt anybody.
15 Q. Was there one truck of such troops or more than one truck?
16 A. I saw two trucks.
17 Q. And about how many men, please?
18 A. I really don't know.
19 Q. More than ten?
20 A. Yes, yeah.
21 Q. Could have been as many as 50?
22 A. Again, I can't tell you that with 100 per cent certainty. I know
23 there were quite a number of them but as to their exact number, I can't be
25 Q. I think on the first day maybe you said you went with a group of
1 30 people. So would it be correct that there were about 30 people from
2 Lisnja there when you were there turning in the guns?
3 A. People came from the entire Prnjavor municipality. All of them
4 Muslims. And they all brought their weapons. They were aware of the
5 request to hand over their weapons. They all did that to avoid any
6 possible problems in the future.
7 Q. Well, the information to turn in the gun was communicated to you
8 by a Muslim representative; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So wouldn't you have expected that the other people from around
11 Prnjavor would have been given that information from their Muslim
12 representatives to turn it in within three days?
13 A. I suppose they also received that same information. There were
14 quite a few people there who were all turning in their weapons.
15 Q. Did you speak to any Serbs with regard to orders from their Serb
17 A. I personally did not talk to any of them.
18 Q. Okay. Then in your statement it says: "About three or four days
19 later, your SDA representative told you that any hidden weapons had could
20 be collected by noon and would be collected by the military."
21 That's true, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And the reason I just referred you to that, because reading from
24 page 4 of your original statement, you wrote: "This same day, two groups
25 of Muslim men, about 10 to 15 in each group, refused to hand over their
1 weapons, they were telling everyone if they surrendered the weapons, the
2 Muslims would all be killed, and during this incident, Captain Nedjo was
3 present. These two groups ordered Captain Nedjo, two aids, and three
4 Muslims against the wall and took the surrendered weapons. Then they left
5 the village and went to a hill called Vinogradine."
6 Do you remember saying that?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. And the reason that I gave that preliminary statement from the
9 paragraph before that about three or four days later, after you had turned
10 in the hunting rifles, the representative told you hidden weapons would be
11 collected by noon by the military. Was it that three or four days later,
12 after you turned in your hunting -- your brother-in-law's hunting rifles,
13 that this incident occurred with these 30 young Muslim men?
14 A. Yes. Mr. Pekic came. He was the SDA president. He was the one
15 who told us that all the weapons should be handed over by noon. And
16 people did that, whoever had anything, they brought it and handed it over.
17 Q. And those weapons, those were not the hunting rifles that you were
18 told about in the first order. These were any other kinds of privately
19 owned gun; is that right? I think you used the word "automatic weapons"
20 even. So these were different guns; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And on that day, before noon, is it correct, a lot of people came
23 in and turned in their private weapons, the ones you described as
24 automatic weapons? Is that true? A lot of peaceful citizens did that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And they --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. They turned it in to whom, to the military forces?
4 A. Captain Nedjo was there, and two other soldiers. There were our
5 representatives there as well. That is in the local commune. And it was
6 recorded what weapons were handed in. Then guys came, collected the
7 weapons, without any ammunition, and left for Vinogradine.
8 Q. Can you tell me where that was, where that took place?
9 A. That was in the Carsija, in the local commune headquarters, which
10 was also part of the culture centre, so it was all together.
11 Q. Like if somebody used the term Dom Kulture, that's the area that
12 it was collected at? That those guns were collected at?
13 A. Yes. Yes. Dom Kulture, the local commune headquarters and its
14 office is next door to the Dom Kulture. It's all together.
15 Q. Okay. And did you have any weapons to turn in on that occasion
16 three or four days after you turned in your brother-in-law's weapons or
17 brother's weapons?
18 A. No. I did not have any other weapons.
19 Q. Okay. So what I'm really trying to figure out, then, Mr.
20 Mujanic: Were you there when that happened? Were you at the Dom Kulture?
21 A. No. By the Dom Kulture, there is a restaurant or a coffee place,
22 and I was standing on its terrace with a number of other people.
23 Q. So you were watching from a distance away, not too far a distance
24 but you were watching from a distance away; is that right?
25 A. Yes. I was some 10 or 15 metres away from that place.
1 Q. Did you know each and every one of those 20 to 30 young men who
2 took the guns?
3 A. No. I didn't know every one of them. I actually knew just one of
4 them, whose family name is Katanic and his first name is Edin. That's the
5 only guy I really knew. As or the others, I just sort of knew them by
6 sight. I didn't know their names.
7 Q. And there is no way to tell if a gun is loaded unless you open the
8 gun and look in it. Would we agree on that?
9 A. An automatic weapon has to have a clip with ammunition. I didn't
10 see any clips on those automatic weapons. That's how I knew that the guns
11 were not loaded. They were not filled with ammunition.
12 Q. Are you talking about the guns that were turned in by the people
13 from Lisnja? Those guns?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Now, Captain Nedjo carried a gun, didn't he?
16 A. Captain Nedjo had an automatic rifle.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: It's start being to escape me. He has explained
18 his basis for thinking that these rifles were not loaded. I just don't
19 know where --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: The objection sustained, yes.
21 Proceed with the next question.
22 MS. BARUCH:
23 Q. The 20 to 30 men that came and took these automatic weapons and
24 private weapons from Nedjo and his two aides and the three Muslims
25 reported on your statement, those men carried guns as well, didn't they?
1 A. Muslims did not carry guns. The only person who had any weapons
2 was Captain Nedjo. I saw that. I don't know about the others. I didn't
3 see them carrying anything. Maybe they had pistols and nobody approached
4 these soldiers anyway.
5 Q. These soldiers? What soldiers.
6 A. The soldiers who arrived together with Captain Nedjo. I did not
7 see any weapons on them. I see a weapon that is an automatic rifle on
8 Captain Nedjo but not on the others.
9 Q. Okay. So Nedjo was there with some soldiers, and this group of 20
10 to 30 men who are Bosniaks, go there and take against orders, the orders
11 being to turn in the guns, they took the guns from at least one person who
12 was armed; is that right?
13 A. Yes, from Captain Nedjo.
14 Q. I think some place you described a hundred hunting weapons plus
15 other weapons. Do you know what -- how many weapons were taken on that
17 A. No. I wouldn't know. I believe that we had about 100 hunting
18 snipers. There were a lot of hunters in the village. And that is what I
19 know for a fact. As for the rest, I can't give you the exact number. I
20 don't know.
21 Q. I'm not asking for the exact number. I'm sure the Court would be
22 interested in knowing about how many guns these young men took from
23 Captain Nedjo, who was armed. Could you see that? And if you couldn't,
24 just tell us.
25 A. I know that the rifle was taken from Captain Nedjo because I saw a
1 man carrying an automatic rifle with a clip, and as for the others,
2 without the ammunition, I don't know how many were taken. People had
3 maybe one rifle each. Nobody had two rifles. So I really don't know.
4 Q. Okay. So you saw these young men take rifles as well as automatic
5 weapons; is that right?
6 A. The rifles were what people surrendered, and the automatic weapons
7 were surrendered. So all of that together was taken away.
8 Q. Okay. And the other thing that confused me about this when I was
9 reading your statement and listening to your testimony is: I couldn't
10 tell if that incident occurred on the same day that Mr. Milankovic
11 announced on a megaphone that everybody from the village had to leave and
12 go to the sawmill. Can you tell me if this incident was on that same day?
13 A. Yes. That happened on the same day.
14 Q. Okay. So it would be correct, wouldn't it, that after the guns
15 were taken by the men who went towards a hill called Vinogradine, that is,
16 when the announcement was made that everybody should come out of Lisnja
17 and go to the sawmill, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And about how long after that incident were you at the sawmill?
20 A. Well, I think that was in the afternoon.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We have to stop here.
22 MS. BARUCH: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: And we will have a 25-minute break.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.
1 MS. BARUCH: May it please the Court.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.
3 MS. BARUCH:
4 Q. Mr. Mujanic, I just need -- the Court Reporter said to me he
5 couldn't get the spelling of the German town in which you gave the
6 statement to the police. Could you spell that for us.
7 A. Kirhajm Tek.
8 Q. Do you know the letters?
9 A. K-i-r-h-a-j-m.
10 Q. Thank you. Is that the complete name of the town?
11 A. Kirhajm Tek.
12 Q. Thank you. I want you to look at your Serbian statement on page
13 5, the paragraph before the end, I'll read you the sentence that I think
14 is important. You tell me if that was gotten down correctly. When you
15 gave your statement, on page 5, in B/C/S, the paragraph before the end
16 statement, the second sentence: "[B/C/S spoken]."
17 I think that says, at least it's translated in English, that you
18 did not see the young men that the Hodza went to get because they were put
19 on trucks to go to Prnjavor. Did you say that to the investigator who
20 came to speak with you?
21 A. No, I'm sorry, I probably got confused somewhere. Because they
22 were taken in trucks, but I got confused.
23 Q. So you're saying that when you said back in 2001, a time closer to
24 the incident, that you did not see those young men, those men, you were
1 A. I did see the young men as they were coming down, two young men, a
2 father and a son, and they were the ones who were beaten. As they were
3 walking down, they were beaten with rifle butts.
4 Q. And so those were the two men that you saw coming out of Lisnja,
5 throwing down their weapons, those two people?
6 A. Yes. But I didn't see everything.
7 Q. Okay. And those two people who you saw coming out, those two
8 people who threw out their weapons, they are coming out after the shelling
9 started, correct?
10 A. Yes. The shelling had already started when they were walking
12 Q. Okay. Now, in your statement that you gave back in 2001, you told
13 the Prosecutor that you saw the shelling, that there were four shells,
14 three from a rocket launcher and one from a recoilless. That's on page 5
15 of your statement. Is that correct? That's what you saw as the shelling.
16 A. Yes. The shells were landing there. One landed near the mosque
17 and one landed on my brother-in-law's barn and that's how it was torched.
18 When we get there, after -- when we got there after we were released, we
19 were able to see the consequences.
20 Q. Okay. You just said that you saw two shellings, one of the barn
21 and one of the mosque. Did you also see two other shellings but you
22 didn't see, couldn't see, where they landed?
23 A. There were a number of shells fired. I can't tell you exactly how
24 many because the noise was quite substantial as the multiple rocket
25 launcher fires them quite noisily but I can tell you that there were a
1 number of shells that were fired.
2 Q. And you didn't see where the other shells landed; is that correct?
3 A. I couldn't see everything.
4 Q. Okay. Did you also -- and I don't even know if you would be able
5 to hear -- but did you also hear bullets from guns at any time while you
6 were up at the sawmill?
7 A. Yes. We heard the firing. Once the army started from the place
8 where we were. We could hear the firing, yes.
9 Q. Okay. So the armed men from your position, the Wolves of Vucjak,
10 then, as infantry or as Milankovic's army, then after the shelling, the
11 major shelling, they walked to the town which was higher up a hill; is
12 that right?
13 A. Yes, towards the village.
14 Q. And did you see them actually get to the village and go into the
16 A. That village is the village of Puraci, and it was some 20 metres
17 from us.
18 Q. What about the village or hamlet of Lisnja? Did you see them get
19 to Lisnja?
20 A. Well, all of that is called Lisnja, Puraci and Lisnja are
21 together. Puraci is a separate hamlet, though.
22 Q. Thank you. So when you said the people left Lisnja, did you mean
23 that people from Puraci left and went to the sawmill?
24 A. It came from Puraci. People came from Puraci. Now, I couldn't
25 tell you anything more detailed because that was to the right of Lisnja.
1 Q. From where you were standing, I'm understanding that Puraci was
2 quite close to where you were at the sawmill but you also said your
3 brother-in-law's barn was set on fire. Is your brother-in-law's barn
4 actually in Puraci or is it in the village or hamlet of Lisnja? And
5 explain it to me, if I just confused you.
6 A. The barn is in Lisnja.
7 Q. So from where you were standing and you're looking up the hill,
8 first one would see Puraci and then beyond that would be Lisnja; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. And you could easily see Puraci but did -- and I think
12 you've told me you also could see the soldiers from the sawmill actually
13 walk into the village of Lisnja or the hamlet area, at which your
14 brother's barn was or brother-in-law's barn.
15 A. Well, there is just a road dividing and leading to Lisnja. Puraci
16 on the right and if you continue straight, you would get to Lisnja. So
17 Puraci hamlet is to the right.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you for explaining that. And as these soldiers
19 actually got to the centre of the Lisnja part, did you hear shooting of
21 A. We could hear the shooting.
22 Q. Was there much shooting?
23 A. Not that much. It lasted for half an hour perhaps. But it wasn't
24 very intense.
25 Q. Thank you. I wouldn't dare ask you how many shots you heard but
1 it was nice of you to help us by giving us a time.
2 Would you agree with me that from the distance you were away and
3 the place where the soldiers went into and the fact that there were
4 buildings and roads in Lisnja centre, that you couldn't tell what
5 direction the bullets were being fired from?
6 A. We could tell that because we could hear the shooting quite near.
7 It was dusk, so we could see the fire, the sparks, from where the bullets
8 were fired, and there were just elderly there and the people that had
10 Q. Now, you were not in that village yourself; isn't that true? You
11 were at the sawmill?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in fact, after you got to the sawmill, when you say everybody
14 had left Lisnja except the elderly and infirm, in fact, those 20 or 30 men
15 were still in the area towards the town of Lisnja, isn't that correct, up
16 the hill?
17 A. Yeah, but as Hodza left, other people started pouring in. I
18 didn't see all of these people but that's what I heard later, that all of
19 them had come down, that all of them had returned, and were transferred to
21 Q. Okay. So that clears it up a little bit. You didn't actually see
22 this. This is what somebody else told you afterwards, correct?
23 A. I saw only the two men who had thrown away their weapons and who
24 were beaten.
25 Q. And you also know, don't you, that at least one person was still
1 in the Lisnja area up in a tree, Osman Rahimic, who did not surrender on
2 that day that you were at the sawmill --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Ask him first whether he's heard of the name.
4 MS. BARUCH: I'm sorry, I thought we went over that.
5 Q. Do you know Osman Rahimic?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: It wasn't this witness. It was another witness,
7 Madam Baruch, that told us about the person you've just mentioned.
8 JUDGE JANU: That he was in the wood.
9 MS. BARUCH:
10 Q. Do you know Osman Rahimic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you mention him with regard to looting and having seen
13 civilians looting houses?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. So you know at least one person who did not surrender and
16 come out of the town, who was not elderly or infirm, who remained in
17 Lisnja during this whole incident?
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, I don't think he ever said he wasn't elderly
19 or infirm. He said there was one person who observed looting from a
20 tree. For whatever relevance that's worth.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.
22 MS. BARUCH:
23 Q. Would you agree Osman Rahimic was not an elderly or infirm person?
24 A. I would agree. He was 40 something.
25 Q. Okay. And did you later get to speak with Osman Rahimic, didn't
1 you, about the incidents on that day?
2 A. Yes. He came and joined us in the camp. He had surrendered,
3 reported to the police, and came to the camp.
4 Q. At Sloga, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Didn't he also tell you that he was armed when he was
7 hiding in the woods around Lisnja? And he turned in his gun as well as
8 himself? Did he tell you that?
9 A. I don't remember. He didn't tell me that he had had a weapon, nor
10 do I know of that. I can't say that.
11 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Did he tell you that there were other men
12 hiding in the woods along with him?
13 A. He said that he had been alone.
14 Q. Did he tell you that he had some kind of a contact in the village
15 of Lisnja who was giving him information about what was going on? Did he
16 tell you that?
17 A. He didn't say anything about that. He just saw when the village
18 was torched. He saw soldiers and officers looting and carrying away
19 property items and so on.
20 Q. I think you also said "and civilians"; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. This was in a casual conversation at Sloga, when he was giving his
23 story to you?
24 A. He told that to us, not just to me alone. There were other people
25 there. We asked him what happened to him, he had stayed behind and nobody
1 knew what was going on with him for some 15 days.
2 Q. So would it be correct, Mr. Mujanic, that you don't really know
3 whether or not there were people hiding in Lisnja before the soldiers with
4 Milankovic actually entered the village of Lisnja? Would that be
5 correct? If somebody was hiding, you wouldn't have known?
6 A. I don't know about that. So I can't say anything different.
7 Q. I think you agreed with me, but I'm not sure.
8 You don't know, nobody brought to your attention, whether or not
9 somebody was hiding in Lisnja at the time that the soldiers went in; is
10 that correct?
11 A. As far as I know, as far as we learned later on, there was nobody
12 except for Osman Rahimic hiding.
13 Q. But you certainly heard shots being fired from several directions,
14 didn't you?
15 A. Because we were encircled from all sides, Lisnja was, and after we
16 came back, there was shooting from all sides.
17 Q. Okay. So what you're telling this Tribunal, I think, is that you
18 attribute any bullets that were coming from a different direction than the
19 direction of Milankovic's men, you attribute that to, for example, the
20 troops from Laktasi who you said were on the other side of the village?
21 Is that what you're trying to indicate?
22 A. Yes. There was shooting from all sides. I can't say that it was
23 only Milankovic's people shooting because everybody else was shooting, and
24 the area that they passed through is the area where houses were torched.
25 Q. Okay. So you attribute --
1 A. By Milankovic's people.
2 Q. You attribute, if there was any shooting at Milankovic's people or
3 at soldiers coming from the direction you were at, you attribute that to
4 the two groups of soldiers shooting at -- towards each other as they were
5 entering the village from all sides?
6 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't think that's a fair characterisation of
7 what he's been saying. He didn't say anybody was shooting at Milankovic's
8 men. And there is two -- she's kind of mixing two different times. When
9 he was at the sawmill she as asking him about shooting, as the
10 Milankovic's troops went into Lisnja.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: You may be right, Mr. Nicholls.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Now he's talking about afterwards when the town was
14 JUDGE AGIUS: He may be right and probably he is. I'll give you
15 an opportunity to rephrase your question or to put more than one question
16 along the lines that has been suggested to make sure that we are not
17 confusing two separate timeframes here.
18 MS. BARUCH:
19 Q. I want to talk about as the soldiers entered the main village of
20 Lisnja, Mr. Mujanic. Are you saying that there was no return fire against
21 the soldiers from Milankovic?
22 A. I think that had a fire been opened, had somebody been injured, we
23 would have been all killed.
24 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: But he's given you an answer too.
1 MS. BARUCH:
2 Q. Is that all the information you know about that? Because I'm
3 trying to find out if your statement was that there was nobody resisting
4 Milankovic's men as they went up the hill and into Lisnja. Would you know
5 anything about that?
6 A. As soon as it was dark, they stationed themselves in various
7 houses. For example, they would start fire in the middle of a
8 living-room, have barbecue. I learned that from a relative of mine
9 because they were in his house, they set up fire in his living-room, and
10 were sitting there drinking.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not confuse -- I mean, you're not answering
12 the question. The question is a very simple and direct one. Mrs. Baruch
13 wants to know whether you are in a position to confirm that there was or
14 there wasn't any kind of armed resistance or firing back from the town of
15 Lisnja or from the hamlet of Lisnja on Milankovic's troops.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, you're confirming that there was no
18 fire coming from that direction, from the town of Lisnja.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And perhaps you can tell us how you know that,
21 whether you know it from your own observations or whether it's because you
22 have been told that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard from the others that there
24 was nobody left there with weapons who could have been able to shoot at
25 Milankovic's men, and we also knew it because had a fire been opened
1 then --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You have told us that. Now, Mrs. Baruch,
3 he's back in your hands, perhaps you can ask him the next question that
4 Mr. Nicholls maintained could be confusing as to the two different
5 timeframes, if you want to proceed with that question. But we have at
6 least one explanation for sure, and that is that when Milankovic's name --
7 troops entered the men of Lisnja, approached the town of Lisnja, there was
8 no resistance.
9 MS. BARUCH:
10 Q. Okay. What you know is that none of Milankovic's men were
11 injured; is that correct? To your knowledge.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Because the other day you talked about one person, Sead, I
14 think his name was, who had a shotgun shell in his arm. How did that
15 happen? Did you see that?
16 A. No. It wasn't Senad. It was.
17 Q. Somebody else?
18 A. Avdic. It was Avdic. I can't remember his first name. He had a
19 shotgun wound in this area. He was all bloodied and he was coming from
20 Puraci area. We saw, as they beat him with rifle butts and all other
21 kinds of implements and he held his arms above his head.
22 Q. Okay. So you saw this person, Avdic, coming out of the Puraci
23 area with --
24 A. Yes, Senad.
25 Q. And that was after the shooting had started, after the shelling;
1 is that right?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. And did I see that right? Did you say that he was -- if you look
4 at me, that he was injured in this area, like by his back?
5 A. Here. It went through the muscle.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness is indicating the muscle between -- over
7 the scapula, connecting the scapula and the neck, on the left-hand side.
8 MS. BARUCH:
9 Q. And this Senad Avdic, did you see him also turn in a gun?
10 A. No. I didn't see that. I don't know that.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: And you didn't see him shoot himself either, did
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
14 MS. BARUCH: I wasn't trying to suggest that he was shooting
16 Q. But he was shot before he was coming down from the hill. As he
17 was coming down from the hill his hands were up and some soldiers were
18 taking him into custody and hitting him; is that right?
19 A. That's right. As they were taking him into custody and walking
20 with him on the road, I could see that this area here was bleeding.
21 Q. Okay. And the next morning, they brought him to the hospital,
22 correct, or towards Prnjavor -- before everybody else, right?
23 A. Yes. That very night, they took him to Prnjavor.
24 Q. Now, I'm sorry, my paper got changed. The fighting, did it go
25 on -- or the shooting, did it go on through the night or was it only until
1 you saw the soldiers get into the village of Lisnja?
2 A. At dusk time, everything stopped, and they went into houses.
3 Q. So all of this activity that involved shelling or shooting, it was
4 sometime between the afternoon, I think you said 1600 is when the shelling
5 started, to dusk; would that be correct, Mr. Mujanic?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did it start up again the next morning?
8 A. In the morning, we could hear a bullet here and there, only
9 occasionally, but there wasn't much firing. However, we could see the
10 smoke rising, smoke plumes from the houses, barns and so on.
11 Q. Okay. So you heard occasional bullets but the fires were still at
12 least smouldering; is that right?
13 A. Smouldering, yes, and some had been set on fire just a few hours
14 before that when we got there.
15 Q. When you were actually in the village of Lisnja, did you observe
16 anybody start a building on fire?
17 A. As we were returning to the village, there were houses that were
18 on fire, and there were houses that were smouldering.
19 Q. Okay. And that's what you saw. But you didn't observe any
20 particular person set any house on fire, right?
21 A. Yes. I personally saw a man leaving my house that he had set on
22 fire. It was already burning.
23 Q. Do you know that man?
24 A. By sight.
25 Q. From your village?
1 A. No.
2 Q. By sight from where?
3 A. I think he was from Ilova, but at any rate, we were together in
4 the reserve.
5 Q. You confused me yesterday when you talked about mopping up
6 stage -- you talked about mopping up but the people from the village of
7 Lisnja were not there. What do you consider mopping up?
8 A. I didn't say that there was mopping up, but the soldiers had
9 passed through and they wouldn't let us return into the village until the
10 troops had left it. So we were released a little bit earlier so we were
11 able to see the soldiers still in the village.
12 Q. Let me refer you better to a report that Mr. Nicholls showed you,
13 that was dated June 3rd of 1992, and he read to you from the last sentence
14 of paragraph 2, which stated, "Measures have been taken to continue
15 mopping up the areas of Kozarac, Prijedor, Sanski Most, Kljuc, and Lisnja,
16 a village near Prnjavor." And Mr. Nicholls asked you if you agreed with
17 that report from Exhibit -- I think it was on P659, that there was mopping
18 up, and you said: "Yes, there was mopping up but we were not there."
19 What did you mean by that?
20 A. There were no people there. One group came by a tractor in the
21 morning, and they picked up all the infirm and the disabled and elderly,
22 so there was nobody else there but that guy Inic [phoen] who was hiding
23 somewhere in the fields. The village was deserted.
24 Q. So what was being mopped up? You mean when you say mopping up,
25 that the elderly and infirm were taken out of the village? Is that what
1 you meant?
2 A. No. What I meant was -- when I gave my statement, is that Kljuc
3 and Lisnja and Kozarac were being mopped up. That's what I said.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Baruch, one moment. Throughout this year and
5 a half that we've been holding this trial, we have had several instances
6 where we had to go through this question of what's the meaning of mopping
7 up. And as Mr. Ackerman can confirm to you, we have different
8 interpretation and different meanings given to the term mopping up,
9 depending on the context in which the word is used and also who is using
10 it. There seems to be a military significance to the term mopping up,
11 when used particularly in military documents.
12 There is a health or sanitary significance to the term when it's
13 being used in civilian terms. And there are also other explanations that
14 have been forthcoming from time to time. So we must first, before you can
15 proceed with further questions on this mopping up matter, make sure that
16 the sense in which it is used in the military document that he has been
17 referred to is the same that he intends. Because otherwise, you would be
18 talking at cross-purposes.
19 MS. BARUCH: Thank you.
20 Q. So Mr. Mujanic, can you tell me what you mean when you say -- use
21 the word "mopping up"?
22 A. No, he didn't use the word mopping up.
23 MS. BARUCH: He agreed.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: It's someone else that who has used the term. This
25 is what I'm trying to understand.
1 MS. BARUCH: Okay.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: And he was -- I'm trying to explain. He was told
3 yesterday, he was read out this paragraph, from document Exhibit P659, the
4 paragraph 2, which states; "measures have been taken to continue mopping
5 up the areas of Kozarac, Prijedor, Sanski Most, Kljuc and Lisnja, a
6 village near Prnjavor."
7 So the question -- first question should be: What do you
8 understand by the term "mopping up" the areas of Kozarac, as it appears in
9 this document?
10 MS. BARUCH: Thank you, Judge. I would --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we follow up with the next question: Would you
12 agree that that was taking place, yes or no?
13 MS. BARUCH: Yes. Okay. That's what I was really trying to do.
14 Q. Mr. Mujanic, what did you understand by that term, "mopping up"?
15 A. Mopping up is when the army is in the village and if resistance
16 had been put up, then the infantry comes in and mops up the area. That's
17 what I mean when somebody says mopping up.
18 Q. You said then the infantry comes in and mops up the area. So can
19 you tell me what you mean in that -- how you understand that concept.
20 A. If there is the army, then the army penetrates an area, moves
21 forward, and that's how I see it.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please, could you give the witness the B/C/S
23 version of this document? It's -- if you don't have it readily available,
24 I can give you mine. I think that's quicker. Here. And refer him to
25 this paragraph 2, here, and he explains to us the last two and a half
1 lines, whether this is what he means when reading that document. It means
2 that the infantry steps in to clear up the mess?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: So if you were to explain it in your own words, how
5 would you express yourself?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mopping up involves infantry, there
7 was some resistance put up, and the infantry comes in to mop up the enemy
8 in order to be able to move forward.
9 MS. BARUCH:
10 Q. Okay. And is that how you understood what was done on that day --
11 day and the next morning, as the infantry walked into Lisnja?
12 A. Yes. That's the way I understood it. I understood it as if there
13 was mopping-up operation through Lisnja.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you. And the next day, the next morning, they didn't
15 take you to Prnjavor, you went to another village; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you stayed with relatives; is that right?
18 A. No. We escaped, we heard shooting around the village. My
19 neighbour woke me up and then we went to Konjuhovci.
20 Q. Konjuhovci. When you went to Konjuhovci?
21 A. Yes, Konjuhovci.
22 Q. You said we escaped and we went there. And who did you stay with
23 at Konjuhovci?
24 A. The hodza, Jusuf accommodated us there. He told us where to go
25 because he knew the people who were willing to receive the people. So he
1 was the one who was in charge of that.
2 Q. And I think you used the word hiding, that you escaped and you
3 went there to hide. Is that the correct connotation?
4 A. Okay. Then. If that's what I said, then that's what I said. We
5 went there to escape any negative consequences. We didn't want anything
6 to happen to us. That's why we fled to Konjuhovci.
7 Q. But there came a time when you left Konjuhovci and went back to
8 Lisnja too, isn't that true?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Why did you do that? Why did you go back to Lisnja?
11 A. I had a house there. I had livestock there. There was nobody
12 there to look after all that. I had to return.
13 Q. Were all of your relatives in Germany at that time, Mr. Mujanic,
14 or did you have some relatives that were still in the Prnjavor area?
15 A. Yes. But not my close relatives.
16 Q. Okay. When you said yes, you mean yes, I did have some relatives,
17 not close relatives, who were in the Prnjavor area, that's my
18 understanding. Did you also have access to some money? Did you have
19 money in the Prnjavor area?
20 A. No. I had some very little money, not much.
21 Q. I guess the reason that I'm asking you is because you said that
22 you gave -- you left Sloga by perhaps bribing an inspector, first on
23 credit but then you returned and did pay him; is that right?
24 A. That is correct, on the following day I had borrowed some money
25 from the brother's Mujanics, they had a lot of money they had about 50.000
1 German marks. I had borrowed money from them to be able to pay this guy.
2 Q. And also, when you left the area of Prnjavor, I think that you
3 paid the bus driver some money as well; is that right?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: He said 1.600 deutschmarks.
5 MS. BARUCH: Yes.
6 Q. So was that your money as well?
7 A. My wife sent that money from Germany, and she sent it on that same
8 bus that I would later take to go to Germany. She sent me about 2500
9 German marks. It was the money that she raised together with my brother.
10 Q. Okay. And after you went back to Lisnja, you were told that you
11 were going to be put, detained at the Sloga factory, and you peacefully
12 went to Sloga. I understood that correctly, didn't I?
13 MR. NICHOLLS: That's not what he said on direct at all.
14 MS. BARUCH: I'm sorry.
15 Q. Can you refresh my recollection? Were you arrested and taken to
17 A. Meho Mujanic was told that we had to surrender, some 30 of us took
18 a tractor, went to Prnjavor, surrendered there, we came to the police
19 station, and we were kept there. We were interrogated. And then we were
20 taken by buses to the Sloga shoe factory under the police escort.
21 Q. Was that a part of the factory that was not in use? Clearly it
22 must have been.
23 A. That factory had been used before, and there used to be a
24 machinery on the production floors but that machinery had been taken in an
25 unknown direction. I don't know where it was taken to.
1 Q. So then once you got to Sloga, every day at about 10.00 or most
2 every day, unless there was unusual circumstances, the friends and
3 relations of people who were detained in Sloga were permitted to bring
4 food, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And they were permitted, if they had some, to bring clothing or
7 bedding as well, isn't that true?
8 A. No. That is not true.
9 Q. You didn't see anybody who brought -- had clothing brought to them
10 or bedding?
11 A. I didn't see that. I was in the other room. And I didn't see
12 anybody with bedding. We all slept either on cardboards or if there
13 wasn't any available, then we slept on the concrete.
14 Q. Okay. You said I was in the other room. Do you have reason to
15 believe that the people in the other room had access to bedding and
16 clothing if they needed it?
17 A. No. I didn't. When I was given permission to go to that other
18 room, I didn't see anybody having a mattress or bedding or anything of
19 that sort.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have to stop here. Madam Baruch, unless
21 you can conclude very, very quickly on this particular.
22 MS. BARUCH: I would love to help the Court out and I'm so tired
23 that I couldn't even think straight. And it would go slower if I did it
24 now than if I just do two questions tomorrow. I apologise, Mr. Mujanic.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Can I just ask, is that all that's left for
2 MS. BARUCH: I think very little.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: How much?
4 MS. BARUCH: I think ten minutes at the most.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm starting an initial appearance and arraignment
6 quite soon for which I have to prepare. So I think we better stop here.
7 Because I have other things to do with my staff before I proceed with the
8 next case.
9 Mr. Mujanic, I'm afraid we haven't finished. You need to come
10 again tomorrow. You will be here only for a few minutes. And after that,
11 you will be free to go back home.
12 We adjourn for today, resuming tomorrow at 9.00 and with the
13 understanding that we will have a morning and afternoon session tomorrow.
14 Thank you.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
16 1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
17 the 22nd day of May, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.