1 Tuesday, 10 June 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning. Madam Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Brdjanin. Good morning to you. Can you

10 hear me in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I

12 can hear you and understand you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Appearances. Prosecution.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Good morning, Your Honours. Ann Sutherland

15 together with Denise Gustin, case manager, for the Prosecution.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And appearances for Mr. Brdjanin.

17 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Good morning, Your Honours. David Cunningham, I'm

18 assisted by Vesna Anic. Mr. Ackerman, with the Court's permission, will

19 be here after the first break. He is going to do the cross-examination of

20 Mr. Sebire.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So any preliminaries? Let's

22 bring the witness in, please. We were in closed session. No? Madam

23 Chuqing or in open session. Open session. Yeah. Okay.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning to you, sir. Can you hear me in

1 a language that you can understand.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. It's all right.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Usher, please, can you give the witness the

4 text of the solemn declaration.

5 Witness, could you please read that aloud once more, please.

6 WITNESS: JADRANKO SARAN [Resumed]

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a chair. Yes,

11 Ms. Sutherland.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Examined by Ms. Sutherland: [Continued]

14 Q. Sir, we left off on Friday discussing the arming of the Serbian

15 population. I asked you a question in relation to that, and you replied:

16 In 1991, that was the year when the Serbs started to arm themselves, in a

17 systematic fashion, through the Yugoslav People's Army. And then you went

18 on, and you said: They were armed also through other means and channels,

19 and almost all of them in the areas of the right bank of the Una River,

20 almost all of them had weapons.

21 What were the other means and other channels that you're aware of?

22 A. Well, that means that they used private channels to bring in

23 weapons from the Republic of Croatia, and then transferring it to local

24 areas. So that they had large quantities of armaments in their

25 possession. That is, into the territory of the Republika Srpska and SAO

1 Krajina, armaments were being brought from -- for combat operations and

2 they were bringing those weapons to the areas where they were, and they

3 almost all had their armaments.

4 Q. Was the reserve police force activated at any time?

5 A. Yes. But which one do you mean? Legal or not?

6 Q. First of all, the legal police force.

7 A. In September 1991, the republican Ministry of the Interior, that

8 is, in Sarajevo, issued its instructions to mobilise the hundred per cent

9 reserve force, so that after the incident, the reserve police force was

10 mobilised.

11 Q. What, if anything, did the SDS do in response to this?

12 A. Well, last time -- sorry, I said that the reaction was that

13 policemen from the police station in Bosanska Krupa, with vehicles and

14 armaments, having been talked into it by Mr. Klickovic and presumably the

15 Crisis Staff, went to the village Jasenica with their vehicles and

16 armaments and stayed there seven days. After that they returned to

17 Bosanska Krupa.

18 Q. Are you aware of any paramilitaries in the area?

19 A. Well, in the territory of Bosanska Krupa municipality, members of

20 the so-called Suha Rebra, spare ribs, from Bosanski Novi, would often

21 turn up. They were a group of criminals whom the SDS presumably

22 manipulated and used for its own purposes. So that on one occasion, in

23 Bosanska Krupa, a group of members of Suha Rebra group pointed a Zolja at

24 the police station in the centre of the town, where a certain citizens's

25 rebellion occurred, or rather, a protest, because of the way they behaved.

1 So that they took the same vehicle and went back, or rather, left the

2 territory of the municipality of Bosanska Krupa. After the municipality

3 of Bosanska Krupa was liberated, one could see many graffiti, saying

4 "White Eagles," which means that paramilitary units of that group

5 were in that -- had been in that area.

6 They also had a group. I wouldn't know the exact name, but Dragan

7 Prastalo, nicknamed Kudra, around Luska Palanka, who was charged with

8 plundering the property of the Bosnian population in Bosanska Krupa, and

9 that property was then taken away to the territory of Sanski Most

10 municipality. And so these would be largely the three groups that were in

11 the area that I'm aware of.

12 Q. And where in the municipality of Bosanska Krupa were these

13 paramilitaries stationed?

14 A. They were not stationed anywhere. The first group was from

15 Bosanski Novi. It's about 30 kilometres from Bosanska Krupa. So that

16 they could come at any time and get to the area in no time at all. And

17 when they would finish whatever job they were up to, they would go back.

18 The White Eagles were in that area after Bosanska Krupa had fallen,

19 because the graffiti had remained on the walls of the buildings in

20 Bosanska Krupa. And the third group that I mentioned, that is, Dragan

21 Prastalo, called Kudra, who was a tradesman from Luska Palanka, they were

22 responsible -- charged with plundering Bosniak Muslims and they were in

23 Luska Palanka, above the Bosanska Krupa municipality.

24 Q. Were there any paramilitary units in Bosanska Krupa, stationed

25 there?

1 A. I wouldn't know that.

2 Q. Were there any training grounds within Bosanska Krupa?

3 A. We who were in the police had some information that we received

4 from people who were in the area of Radici and purely Serb villages,

5 Jasenica, and they had noticed there and observed that a largish group of

6 men was being trained and that there were -- even had firing exercises

7 with real ammunition. At some point there were some hunters who saw that

8 and came to the police and made their report. But by the time we could

9 check the information, such groups would disappear, because they were well

10 informed, so that by the time we would get to the spot, they would be

11 gone.

12 Q. During your testimony on Friday, you mentioned that the Serbs

13 wanted to establish a community of Serb municipalities of Krajina. It was

14 from then that they put everything into this objective for the

15 municipality of Bosanska Krupa. They were -- they established the Serb

16 municipality of Bosanska Krupa.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When were you aware of this occurring?

19 A. After the Martic incident, everybody realised that something was

20 afoot, that something was afoot, because the war in Croatia was raging and

21 the SDS frontmen, headed by Mr. Miroslav Vjestica and Gojko Klickovic,

22 who was the president of the Crisis Staff, didn't even try to conceal the

23 fact. They simply, in an un -- tried to partition the town in an

24 unnatural way. That is, they were not concealing it. They had even

25 prepared a study on the economic justification of such an idea, that is

1 the partitioning of the city, and requested Mr. Meho Mahic, who was the

2 president of the municipality at the time, to accept that idea at all

3 costs. But I think it was simply nonsensical to partition such a town. I

4 mean, it was impossible, it was indivisible and it would have meant

5 partitioning it with some artificial line. So at that time we realised

6 something was looming on the horizon and what was looming was the danger

7 of war, and we realised something was about to happen and the only

8 question was where and when in the municipality of Bosanska Krupa.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Sir, please slow down.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Please slow down a little bit because the

12 interpreters are finding it difficult to catch up with you.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'd now like to show you a number of documents.

14 Could the witness be shown P2052 [Realtime transcript read in error

15 "P0252"].

16 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] -- time to change the

17 transcript, but I think we are not now -- but for the record, we are not

18 showing him Exhibit 0252, but P2052. Correct?

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND:

22 Q. Sir, prior to coming here, had you ever seen this document before?

23 A. Yes, I have.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we have it on the ELMO, please? Not the B/C/S;

25 the English version.

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: I think the document is double-sided, Your

2 Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND:

5 Q. Sir, when did you first see that document?

6 A. Sometime in November 1991.

7 Q. And that is a document dated the 25th of October, 1991, and it's a

8 decision to establish a provisional assembly of Serbian people in the

9 municipality of Bosanska Krupa. So it was in November 1991 that you first

10 heard about the provisional assembly?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness could now be shown P2053.

14 Q. That is a document dated the 25th of October, 1991. "At its

15 session of 25 October 1991 the provisional assembly of the Serbian people

16 of Bosanska Krupa reached the following decision, that the Serbian people

17 living on the state territory of the Serbian people of Bosanska Krupa

18 shall, as of 25 October 1991, cease paying all dues to the Republic of

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina and the present municipality of Bosanska Krupa."

20 So when was the first -- had you seen that document before?

21 A. I have, yes, in November, sometime in November, I had the

22 opportunity to see this document too.

23 Q. And what were the circumstances? How did you come to see a copy

24 of this document?

25 A. It just happened. There was a company, a party of people, and one

1 of the present took out this document and showed it around. And he simply

2 couldn't understand how was it possible to do something like this and how

3 could such a decision request that dues to the legally elected

4 municipality of Bosanska Krupa be discontinued and that all the

5 responsibilities were being transferred to the Serb municipality of

6 Bosanska Krupa and all the dues should be paid them, as of this 25th

7 October 1991, saying that all these dues should be paid to the Serb

8 municipality of Bosanska Krupa.

9 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document?

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown P2054.

11 Q. Have you seen that document before?

12 A. I have.

13 Q. When did you first see it?

14 A. Once again, it was in November 1991.

15 Q. Was that -- and this is a document dated the 25th of October,

16 1991, and it's a decision by the temporary assembly of the Serbian people

17 to hold a plebiscite. Did you see the document before or after the

18 plebiscite, to be held on the 10th of November, 1991?

19 A. After the referendum, I think.

20 Q. Thank you. I've finished with the document.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown P2055.

22 Q. Again, have you seen this document before; and if so, when?

23 A. Once again, it was in November 1991 that I saw this decision for

24 the first time.

25 Q. And this is again a document dated the 25th of October, 1991, from

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1 the provisional assembly of the Serbian people, a decision to hold a

2 referendum to establish a municipality of the Serbian people of Bosanska

3 Krupa, to be held on the 9th and 10th of November, 1991.

4 Thank you, sir.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P2056.

6 Q. Sir, have you seen this document before; and if so, when?

7 A. Yes, in November. I think it was towards the end of November. I

8 also had the opportunity of seeing this document, the decision on

9 proclaiming the territories on which Serbs lived and territories which

10 belonged to the Serbs, state territories of the Serbian people. It was

11 from the president of the temporary assembly, Mr. Milo Vojnovic, and it's

12 been signed.

13 Q. And the document is dated the 25th of October, 1991. Thank you.

14 Could you --

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P2065. I'm

16 sorry, 2063.

17 Q. Sir, that is a document dated the 27th of December, 1991, and it's

18 an extract from the minutes of the third session of the executive

19 committee of the Bosanska Krupa Municipal Assembly, held on the 24th of

20 December, 1991. Could I take you, please, to the item marked "AD 3 A."

21 Where it states: "The chairman briefed those present on the instruction

22 on establishing SDS Crisis Staffs in Bosnia-Herzegovina and, in accordance

23 with the said instruction, proposed the establishment of a Crisis Staff.

24 This was followed by establishment of the Crisis Staff of the following

25 make-up," and then lists 11 members.

1 Sir, when did you first become aware of a Crisis Staff in Bosanska

2 Krupa? You mentioned -- sorry.

3 A. Towards the beginning of 1992, I was aware of the fact that there

4 was a Crisis Staff in Bosanska Krupa and that it was headed by Gojko

5 Klickovic, the president of the SDS, who we knew was Mr. Miroslav

6 Vjestica.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P2064, 2064.

8 Q. Sir, this is a document dated the 24th of December, 1991. The

9 document is -- the signature block is Gojko Klickovic, commander of the

10 Crisis Staff, and it's an order banning the use of firearms on the

11 territory of the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa. And it states:

12 "The public security's station branch station in Jasenica is hereby

13 authorised to conduct checks, seize weapons, and take other measures

14 prescribed by law."

15 What was the ethnic composition of the police station in Jasenica?

16 A. First of all, I should say that this doesn't refer to the

17 municipality of Bosanska Krupa. Mr. Klickovic was the commander of the

18 Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa, and this order

19 on prohibiting the use of firearms was issued for the territory of the

20 Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa. The legal public security station

21 in Bosanska Krupa also had a branch in Jasenica, and the ethnic

22 composition of that branch were almost 99.9 per cent -- almost 99 per cent

23 were Serbs. Only 1 per cent of the men were Muslim in that police

24 branch. So the Serbian authorities were actively working on establishing

25 all illegal institutions, and with this order, the legal police station in

1 Jasenica was turned into a public security station. An illegal [Realtime

2 transcript read in error "And a legal"] public security station, a Serbian

3 one, and they ordered it to act in the territory -- to act in the Serbian

4 territory and allowed it to take weapons, to seize weapons. If there were

5 Muslims, Bosniaks, in that territory, in such cases, they could seize

6 weapons, or if there were others who happened to be passing through that

7 territory. So checkpoints were set up, guard duty was assigned at these

8 checkpoints. They would conduct checks. They would control individuals

9 and vehicles, and if they found any weapons, they would confiscate them.

10 This was an order which was issued to the illegal public security station

11 in Jasenica.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, for the transcript, page 10, line

13 20, it says a legal public security station, a Serbian one.

14 Q. You said in your answer earlier, "An illegal public security

15 station, a Serbian one," did you not?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. You mentioned --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland --

19 MS. SUTHERLAND:

20 Q. You mentioned checkpoints. Whereabouts specifically were they

21 established, and when were they established?

22 A. When the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa was established by

23 order of the SDS and its leaders, in the part where the Serbs were in the

24 majority on public roads, on all roads, either from Bosanska Krupa to

25 Sanski Most, there was a checkpoint at Vranjska, a place just above

1 Bosanska Krupa, then the road from Bosanska Krupa to Bosanski Novi, the

2 Serbian checkpoint was in Blatna. All the villages around Bosanska Krupa

3 and guard duty was held by Serbs, especially at night. On several

4 occasions I was present when the chief of the police, Mr. Semso Velic,

5 mentioned at briefings that in the evening hours he had attempted to visit

6 the entire municipality of Bosanska Krupa in a vehicle and that the

7 Govedarnica checkpoint, at the Vranjska checkpoint, he was stopped by

8 armed Serbs, who didn't allow him, as the legal chief of police, to move

9 on into the Serbian territory of Bosanska Krupa. And they used weapons to

10 threaten him and send him back.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, I don't want you to take me as criticising

12 you, but please try to answer the question and nothing but the question.

13 I have the feeling that throughout this morning, you have been answering

14 each question also beyond what is being asked from you. So please try to

15 restrict yourself to answering the question, because otherwise you will

16 take much of the precious time that we need for other witnesses too.

17 Thank you.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P2065.

19 Q. Sir, this is a document dated the 30th of December, 1991. It's a

20 Crisis Staff order on the activation of the reserve police force, and it

21 states: The reserve police force at the public security station section

22 in Jasenica shall be activated in order to monitor transport routes to

23 Radic, Vranjska, Arapusa, and the pig farm."

24 First, have you ever seen this document before; and if so, when?

25 A. No. But I've heard about this document. I heard about the fact

1 that there was such a document.

2 Q. And is this what you referred to earlier in your testimony when

3 you said the activation of the reserve police, the illegal activation of

4 the reserve police?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P2073.

8 Q. Sir, this is a document entitled "To the great, wise, and

9 respected Serbian people." It is headed "The municipalities of Bosanska

10 Krupa." It then states: "Let us boycott Alija's referendum on an

11 independent Bosnia and Herzegovina on 29 February and 1st March 1992."

12 The document is signed. The signature block is the SDS municipal board

13 Bosanska Krupa.

14 Sir, have you ever seen that document before; and if so, when?

15 A. Yes. I have seen this document. I saw it in the premises of the

16 Bosanska Krupa police station on the desk of my commander, Lazar Stupar.

17 Q. If we read the document, we can see down -- can you read -- I will

18 read it for you: "The curse of Lazar will fall on each and every Serb

19 who, despite everything he sees, knows, or hears, chooses to cast a vote

20 at the referendum." And I quote: "He who is a Serb, a Serb by birth, and

21 who casts his vote at Alija's referendum, may no offspring, male or

22 female, fill his heart with joy, may his hands's toil leave his land

23 barren, may he have no dark-red wine or white wheat, may misfortune plague

24 all his kin forever."

25 Sir, you said that you saw this on your commander, Lazar Stupar's

1 desk. How did you come to see the document?

2 A. By chance. It was quite by chance, because the commander wasn't

3 in his office. This document remained on his desk. The secretary and I

4 simply saw the document. We were shocked by its contents. We were quite

5 simply shocked by it.

6 Q. Did the secretary ever question Stupar about this document?

7 A. When Lazar returned, comments were made with regard to this

8 subject, that he was evasive and he avoided providing us with direct

9 answers. He thought that at the plebiscite in November, they had voted

10 for the creation of their own state, in which they wanted to live.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is the Lazar referred to in that paragraph, the

12 curse of Lazar? Who is that Lazar? Is he a historical figure? Who is

13 he?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He's a historical figure, the

15 Tzar Lazar, a Serbian tzar. And here they're using him to say that if

16 people vote in the referendum, that the curse of Lazar whether fall upon

17 these people. So this is a Serbian historical figure.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. I've finished with that document.

19 Could the witness be shown Exhibit P2075.

20 Q. Sir, that is a document dated the 10th of March, 1992, from the

21 Executive Board of the assembly of the Serbian municipality of Bosanska

22 Krupa, addressed to the military post at Bosanski Petrovac. And it's a

23 request for the arming of the TO. And it states: "In accordance with our

24 needs, we are hereby enclosing a list of weapons for the Territorial

25 Defence of the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa." And then it lists

1 a number of weapons. And then it says: "The aforementioned items are

2 necessary in order to arm properly the TO of the Serbian municipality of

3 Bosanska Krupa."

4 Sir, those weapons wouldn't have been provided to the Territorial

5 Defence, run by Hasim Djulic, would it?

6 A. Yes. That is the Territorial Defence of the Serbian municipality

7 of Bosanska Krupa, and I think it was headed by Dusko Vojisavljevic. The

8 Territorial Defence of the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa. There

9 is a stamp here which shows that it's the assembly of the Serbian

10 municipality of Bosanska Krupa.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. And finally could the witness be

12 shown P2077. Could the witness also be provided with the municipality map

13 P2020.

14 Q. Sir, that is a document dated the 5th of April, 1992. It is a

15 handwritten document. And the signature block is Crisis Staff commander,

16 Gojko Klickovic. And it is an order to carry out a partial evacuation of

17 the population from the following neighbourhoods and streets: Podvran,

18 Hodzinac, Ljusina, Perna, and Zeljeznicka, Terzica and Titova. And excuse

19 my pronunciation. Could you point on the map, please. If Exhibit P2020

20 could be placed on the ELMO. Could you point to the neighbourhoods that

21 I've just mentioned. And what is your understanding of this order?

22 A. The order issued on the 5th of April, in fact, orders the partial

23 evacuation of the population from the areas that you mentioned. I'll

24 point to Podvran on the ELMO. It's somewhere here. And the villages of

25 Jlijici, Podvran had about ten Serbian households.

1 Q. Just pause there. For the record, you pointed to Podvran and that

2 is just to the left bank of Badic [phoen]; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Please continue.

5 A. Podvran is on the left bank of the River Una. I'm pointing to it

6 now. It's somewhere around here. The Hodzinac settlement is -- also

7 consists of about ten Serbian households, on the left bank of the River

8 Una.

9 Q. And that is just across --

10 A. Ljusina.

11 Q. -- Drenova Glavic?

12 A. Yes, more or less. Ljusina, a Muslim, or rather, Bosniak village,

13 and there were between five and ten Serbian households in Ljusina too. On

14 the left bank of the River Una. The village of Perna, on the left bank of

15 the River Una, the majority of the population in that village was Serb.

16 The Zeljeznicka Street is also on the left bank of the Una River. It's

17 almost right next to the Una River. And there were no more than five to

18 ten Serbian households there as well. The Terzica Street and Titova

19 Street were on the right bank of the Una River. It was in the central

20 part of town, in the street near the mosque, and there weren't many Serbs

21 there. You asked me what I thought about this order, how I understood

22 this order. Well, my answer would be as follows: At the time the Crisis

23 Staff was expecting fighting to break out, and it was in their interest to

24 partially evacuate the Serbian population from the territory where there

25 were Muslims and Bosniaks. To the right bank of the Una. And if war

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1 broke out, to prevent these people from being surrounded by Muslims.

2 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document, both those

3 documents.

4 Sir, after this date, the 5th of April, 1992, were you ever on

5 patrol in the area of Arapusa?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you recall approximately when that was?

8 A. In mid-April, I think. I think it was the 18th or 19th of April

9 when I and my colleague, Zdravko Megeljic, and Branko Saric, went to

10 patrol the area of the villages at the foot of Grmec.

11 Q. Could you just pause there. Do you recall speaking to a man

12 called Stupar, but not the -- your superior officer, Lazar Stupar, but

13 someone else by that name?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you please --

16 A. At the checkpoint.

17 Q. -- briefly tell the Court the circumstances surrounding that

18 conversation.

19 A. At the checkpoint at the junction Hasani Svodna, we came up this

20 illegal checkpoint with a member of the Serb police, whose last name was

21 Lazar [as interpreted], and I remember him because that was also the name

22 of my superior. I asked him to identify himself, and he showed me a

23 certificate.

24 Q. In the transcript it says whose last name was Lazar and I remember

25 it because it was also the name of my superior. Did you say Lazar or did

1 you say Stupar?

2 A. Stupar.

3 Q. Please continue.

4 A. He showed me a certificate with the -- with his full name, and it

5 said that he had been issued with an automatic rifle number such-and-such,

6 that he was a member of the Serb militia, and the document was signed by

7 Gojko Klickovic.

8 Q. What did you do with the document?

9 A. I took this document with me, and when I returned to the police

10 station, I showed the document to Chief Lazar Stupar and head of the -- on

11 the chief of the police administration, Mr. Semso Velic.

12 Q. What did he say when you showed him the document?

13 A. Well, Mr. Stupar always denied that there was any illegal police

14 in Bosanska Krupa, but when I brought the certificate, saying that a

15 policeman of the Serb militia had been made responsible for it and that

16 there was Klickovic as president of the Crisis Staff's signature there,

17 then of course he could no longer deny it and he admitted what all of us

18 already knew, that there was in existence, there was in place this Serb

19 militia, which was already active in the area.

20 Q. Do you recall an incident at Arapusa on or about the 18th or 19th

21 of April?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you briefly tell the Court about that incident.

24 A. In the village of Arapusa, which is a purely Muslim village, near

25 or right next to the village of Osredak, where Serbs constitute a

1 majority, and since the lawful reserve police force had already been

2 mobilised, patrols had been assigned to patrol both the urban and rural

3 areas. In Arapusa, at the -- a vehicle refused to stop when requested to

4 do so by the legal police, and instead they fired a shot in the direction

5 of the policemen and they returned the fire. So that two Serbs were

6 wounded on that occasion, and then it turned out that they were members of

7 the Serb militia. Two guys, I think their last name was Bokan.

8 Q. Was this incident ever investigated?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. By whom?

11 A. Well, because there was still -- the laws of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina or the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, still existed. Then

13 investigating team was set up, with the investigating judge from Bihac. I

14 believe his name was Slobodan Petkovic. Then Cetko Miso was the judge in

15 the district court of Bosanska Krupa. A prosecutor, Munevera Ezic and

16 that investigating team, went to the village of Arapusa and carried out an

17 on-site investigation.

18 Q. Were you part of the investigation?

19 A. Yes, I was.

20 Q. Did you go to Arapusa?

21 A. We did.

22 Q. How many checkpoints did you pass on the way to Arapusa?

23 A. The first checkpoint was right below the hospital, at

24 Govedarnica. That is what it was called. Set up by Serbs. The second

25 checkpoint was at Petrovici. The third one was at Jovanka's monument.

1 There was a large stone on the road, but they removed it to let us through

2 to the village of Arapusa. So these were the checkpoints on the way to

3 Arapusa.

4 Q. What happened when you arrived to Arapusa?

5 A. The investigating team was about to conduct the investigation on

6 the site of the incident, but above Arapusa, on a hill called Nebesic,

7 there was a significant group of people who were armed, and one could see

8 a PAM aimed at a religious object, that is, the mosque, and there were

9 mortars too there. The investigation was being carried out in Arapusa,

10 and as it was under way, Mr. Mehmed Mahic and Gojko Klickovic came from

11 Bosanska Krupa.

12 Q. That's Mehmed Mahic, the head of the community; is that correct?

13 A. Of the Municipal Assembly of Bosanska Krupa. He was the municipal

14 mayor, the president of the Municipal Assembly of Bosanska Krupa.

15 Q. Did Mr. Mahic, Gojko Klickovic, and yourself visit any other

16 places in the area?

17 A. We did. In Arapusa itself, somebody had already said that between

18 Hasani and Arapusa, JNA troops had turned up. And Gojko Klickovic said

19 that the information had to be checked, so that I was at the wheel of the

20 official police car and Gojko Klickovic was sitting next to me, and behind

21 us, Mr. Mehmed Mahic, the municipal mayor. We went in the direction of

22 that cemetery, and there were no troops there. However, Klickovic

23 insisted that we turn back. But knowing that I had been visiting the area

24 and coming across illegal checkpoints, I requested that we move into the

25 depth of that Serb territory, some three or four kilometres. And then it

1 really turned out that at the Hasani Svodna checkpoint -- junction we came

2 across another checkpoint with a number of Serb civilians, that is, Serb

3 people, 60 to 70 years old, about a dozen of them.

4 Q. What happened at this particular checkpoint?

5 A. We got off our official vehicle, Mehmed Mahic and Gojko Klickovic

6 approached those farmers and talked to them. I was in civilian clothes,

7 and I stayed behind with an old man who was not armed. And I asked him if

8 everything was all right. I was simply trying to elicit some additional

9 information. But he said. Yes, yes, yes, everything is fine. Weapons

10 are here. We're all armed. So I said: But you don't have a rifle.

11 Everybody else does. And he said: Yes, but I've got a pistol. And I

12 asked him: Well, has SDS organised it all as it should have done? And

13 Gojko Klickovic too, and he nodded to indicate that yes. And then I

14 said: But what about the ammunition? I don't see any. And he showed

15 below the road, about ten boxes of infantry ammunition, which was there,

16 which means that everything was ready in case something happened. In the

17 meantime, Mr. Mahic and Mr. Klickovic had completed their conversation

18 with those men, and Mr. Mehmed Mahic came to me, and at that point I

19 said: Meho, it seems that everything is ready here and the war is about

20 to start.

21 Q. Did the man that you spoke to tell you where the ammunition came

22 from?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you have any conversations with Gojko Klickovic in the car

25 travelling back to Bosanska Krupa?

1 A. Yes, we did. On our way back towards Arapusa. And the

2 conversation was more or less as follows: Is all that is going on

3 necessary? Can't we find a peaceful solution? And the Mayor Mahic

4 insisted on that and Mr. Gojko Klickovic, being the man that he was very

5 arrogant, very bold, very sassy, if I may use that word, said very

6 self-prepossessing, and he said at some point: Well, listen, Meho, if

7 Muslims and Serbs cannot live together, then there will be a war and we'll

8 live next to one another. And Mr. Mehmed Mahic nevertheless tried to

9 dampen the things a little bit, saying that a peaceful solution should be

10 found, that the crisis should be overcome by peaceful means. But to no

11 avail. At some point, Gojko Klickovic said that a group of Serbs had been

12 to see him and they had seen Muslims, Bosniaks, on the hill of Hum,

13 clearing the trenches which had stayed over from the -- from World War II.

14 And then he said: Well, if balijas are digging trenches on that side,

15 then we the Serbs have you dig them on the other side. And that was

16 generally the drift of the conversation. And meanwhile, we fetched up in

17 the village of Arapusa once again.

18 Q. What date was Bosanska Krupa attacked?

19 A. The 21st of April, at 1750.

20 Q. In the period leading up to the attack, were there any

21 negotiations being held?

22 A. Yes. The civilian authorities in the municipality of Bosanska

23 Krupa have very actively engaged in devising a peaceful solution. Mr.

24 Mehmed Mahic, as the head of the municipality, and members of the SDA,

25 headed by Esad Velic, their president, Omar Kamenagic and Gojko Klickovic

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1 and Miroslav Vjestica, SDS members. But throughout these negotiations,

2 the Serb side kept insisting on the partitioning of the municipality of

3 Bosanska Krupa, and that was something that normal people could not

4 accept, could not go along. So that a political solution was not found

5 and the war broke out.

6 Q. Where was the final attempt to reach agreement? Where was that

7 meeting?

8 A. As far as I can remember, there should have been a meeting in the

9 municipality of Bosanska Krupa, that is, in the municipal hall, and the

10 meeting should have been attended by those that I mentioned. And I think

11 that Mr. Fikret Abdic also came. And the chief of the Bihac barracks,

12 General Ninkovic. So it could have been the 20th of April, a Monday.

13 Q. And you said the attack occurred on the 21st of April, in the

14 afternoon.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where were you at the time of the attack, when the attack started?

17 A. I was near the hospital. I was in the hospital compound. So it

18 was 10 to 6.00 when the attack started, from all possible weapons that I

19 heard for the first time on that occasion.

20 Q. Were you able to see from which direction the attack was coming?

21 A. Yes. One could see it, because all these fire was coming from the

22 direction of Serb villages, Petrovici, Pucenik Vranjska. Those were Serb

23 villages facing the municipality of Bosanska Krupa. The fire was quite

24 intensive, quite fierce.

25 Q. When you say the fire, were there any -- was the village being

1 shelled? Was the town being shelled?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: You can -- Ms. Sutherland, you can go direct and

3 refer him straight to the basic part, last page of his statement, and put

4 direct questions.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND:

6 Q. Sir, how long did the shelling last?

7 A. The shelling went on until dusk, and it was then when the light

8 began to fade that the shelling stopped.

9 Q. What did persons of Serb ethnicity do while the attack was going

10 on?

11 A. People of Serb ethnicity, 99 per cent of them had already left the

12 urban part and moved over to Serb villages at the time of the attack. You

13 could hardly find a single Serb townsman around at the time of the attack.

14 Q. And when did they do this?

15 A. Monday was the last day when almost all of them left. But that is

16 what they did on weekends. They left the urban part of the town, just in

17 anticipation of what might happen later.

18 Q. You said the shelling lasted until dusk. What happened the

19 following day, the 22nd of April?

20 A. On the 22nd of April, at night, and early in the morning, an

21 attempt was made to put together the defence of the town, made of the

22 police, who remained loyal, and part of the population. In the morning,

23 the attack -- the Serb attack started again, because they were out to take

24 the town, and the fighting went on late into the night again.

25 Q. Did any infantry enter the town?

1 A. Yes, yes. That's right. Later on.

2 Q. What sort of weapons did the Muslims have to defend the town?

3 A. Automatic rifles and PAPs. Some grenades.

4 Q. And where were these weapons from?

5 A. Well, these weapons were in the police administration in Bosanska

6 Krupa, and I've already told you that the town was defended by the police

7 and the loyal part of the legal reserve police.

8 Q. Were you involved in any way in arming the non-Serb population?

9 A. Well, no, in a way. I mean, to arm -- well, it was an active and

10 reserve part of the police who were armed lawfully, those who were armed

11 lawfully. They were all members of the lawful police, and they were

12 issued with weapons, with automatic rifles or Paps, whatever was in the

13 depot, because they were lawful members of the police.

14 Q. I'm sorry. My question may not have been clear enough. Besides

15 the police, who were legally armed, were you involved in any way in arming

16 the rest of the -- the remaining non-Serb population?

17 A. No. No.

18 Q. You stated a moment ago that the infantry came in on the 22nd of

19 April. How long did the attack last in the town of Bosanska Krupa?

20 A. Well, infantry entered a part of the town with an APC, so that was

21 again in late afternoon, when they entered the police station, hoisted up

22 their own flag, and --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, please pause there. Just answer the

24 question. Was it one day, two days, three days, four days? That's the

25 question. We don't want the whole story. I mean, I just want to know

1 your answer to the question: How long did the siege of Bosanska Krupa

2 last?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the 25th of April. On the

4 25th of April --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's it.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- everybody had crossed to the left

7 bank of the Una.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND:

9 Q. Sir, can you briefly describe for the Court the property that you

10 saw destroyed during those four days.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me take over, Ms. Sutherland, because we are

12 never going to finish like this. Was the mosque and the Catholic church,

13 were they destroyed.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Were houses destroyed? And if they were, who did

16 these houses belong to?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Purely Muslim, Bosniak

18 localities, Ustikolina, Hum, all houses were burnt down there. Some of

19 the Muslim houses in Mahala and Sokak localities were also torched by the

20 Serbs.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: In your statement to the Prosecution you stated:

22 "All of the mosques on the right bank of the Una were destroyed by the

23 Serb forces in the attack." Do you confirm this?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: In your statement to the Prosecution, you stated:

1 "To give an example, all of the houses in the village where I lived,

2 Ustikolina, Pazadjic, Hum were destroyed." Do you stand by this

3 statement?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: You also stated in your statement there were 300 to

6 350 houses. The houses were not even robbed. They were all just set on

7 fire and systematically destroyed do you confirm?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You also stated in your statement settlements like

10 Sokak and Mahala which had mixed populations, only Muslims houses were set

11 on fire and destroyed. Do you stand by this statement?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A major part of Muslim houses. Yes,

13 I do.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have any further questions, Ms. Sutherland?

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, I do. I have two areas.

16 Q. Sir, did the majority of the Muslims move from the right to the

17 left bank of the Una River?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was there a time in early June that a number of Muslims were

20 brought from the right side of the bank to the bridge?

21 A. I think it was the 6th of June, 1992 when 702, I think, civilians

22 from Sanski Most were brought for exchange to the bridge in Bosanska

23 Krupa.

24 Q. When you say exchange, what do you mean by that?

25 A. The civilians who had stayed on the right bank of the Una, both

1 from the area of Krupa and Sanski Most, were transferred to Bosanska

2 Krupa, across the zeljezni bridge to the left bank.

3 Q. So they were in effect transferred, not exchanged?

4 A. That's right. Yes, that is correct. Deported, deported from the

5 right to the left side.

6 Q. The last area that I want to ask you questions about: You do not

7 know Radoslav Brdjanin personally, do you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. During 1992, did you ever see him on television?

10 A. Yes, once.

11 Q. Do you recall when this was?

12 A. Well, when the conflict broke out, so it was after the 25th of

13 April, there was a meeting in Banja Luka, and Mr. Brdjanin was shown to

14 have been present at it.

15 Q. And what was the context of the programme when you saw him on the

16 television? You said he was at a meeting in Banja Luka. Was this a

17 report of the meeting?

18 A. Yes. Yes. It was the news of Serb -- of the Serb radio

19 television, so it was a news programme and they were either holding an

20 assembly meeting or something, a convention, and Mr. Brdjanin was there

21 and there was his signature as the president of the Crisis Staff of Banja

22 Luka region or something [as interpreted].

23 Q. And on what day did you leave the town of Bosanska Krupa? You

24 said, I think, the 25th of April.

25 A. Yes. Yes.

1 Q. And where did you go?

2 A. We crossed to the left bank of the Una, Pistaline, Jezerske, that

3 is where police units were and that is where we stationed -- were

4 stationed.

5 Q. And how long did you stay there for?

6 A. Until the liberation of Bosanska Krupa, in that area on the left

7 bank of the Una, villages Pistaline and Jezerske and the urban part of the

8 town of the left bank so until Bosanska Krupa was liberated.

9 Q. And that occurred in September 1995?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I'm sorry. Just going back to when you saw Mr. Brdjanin on the

12 television: Did you know what position he held at the time?

13 A. No, I didn't know that. But my friends who know him said that he

14 was reading at the Banja Luka university and was an active politician in

15 Republika Srpska, that is, in Krajina.

16 Q. Did they tell you what position he held?

17 A. What position Mr. Brdjanin held?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Yes. A key position in the SDS and the president of the Crisis

20 Staff.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I have one more area,

22 which will take me about five minutes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought --

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Exhumations.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So we'll have a break here and we will resume

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1 at 11.00. Thank you.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Sir, I want to ask you a couple of questions about the exhumation

8 in Jama Lisac.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P2021,

10 please.

11 Q. Sir, how did you become aware of a mass grave at this location?

12 Could you just point for Their Honours to Jama Lisac on the map.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. Thank you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: But again, why should the map have already indicated

16 on it the site which the witness is being asked to identify?

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I take your point.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's like having a picture of a banana with the word

19 "banana" spelled out and say: Can you tell me which picture shows a

20 banana? So this document, as far as the question goes, particularly with

21 the reference to this document, it will be struck off the evidence. The

22 Chamber will not take cognizance of it. Yes.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND:

24 Q. Sir, I asked you a moment ago: How did you become aware that

25 there was a mass grave at a location called Jama Lisac?

1 A. We received information from a Serb who made a statement and we

2 managed to obtain the information, according to which an area of Dubovik,

3 which is where Jama Lisac is located, there was a grave in which Muslims,

4 Bosniaks, had been placed. This grave is in an area that belongs to the

5 Serbian village of Donji Dubovik. We informed members of the IPTF about

6 this information and together with the international forces, they managed

7 to locate that pit, that grave site.

8 Q. Were you present during the exhumation?

9 A. Yes. I spent one day at Jama Lisac, and at the time they had

10 already exhumed five to six bodies of Muslims, of Bosniaks.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks.

14 Yes, Mr. Cunningham. How long do you think you require? How much

15 time for your cross-examination? That's to give us an indication on when

16 to call Mr. Sebire.

17 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, my guess is that I will finish with him

18 today, and I don't know the length of Mr. Ackerman's cross-examination of

19 Mr. Sebire, but it would still be my earnest guess that we could finish

20 both witnesses today.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Cunningham.

22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And Your Honour, with your permission, I think it

23 might help speed this process along if I had the witness have his copy of

24 his statement ready by his side in case it was needed.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's wise. Usher, please, can I ask you to

1 give the witness a copy of his statement.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Cunningham:

3 Q. Mr. Saran, I'm going to ask you some questions, and if at any time

4 you need to refer to your statement, please do so. I want to remind you

5 of what His Honour said about answering the question directly. I know you

6 want to be home with your family as soon as possible, and I would like to

7 accommodate you in that request. So to go ahead and get started, I want

8 to talk to you about your background. You told us that your father was a

9 police officer. Is that correct?

10 A. That's correct, yes.

11 Q. And that in 1991, you became a deputy police commander in Bosanska

12 Krupa; correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. What qualified you to become a police commander? Did you have any

15 special training in law enforcement?

16 A. I was a deputy commander at that time.

17 Q. Correct. And I understand that, but that was your very first

18 position in the police force. Did you have any special training at that

19 time when you first became a police officer?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You have told us in your statement and through your testimony that

22 the municipality of Bosanska Krupa, the Bosniaks held the majority, of

23 approximately 3:1; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you mentioned today Mr. Mahic, who was the president of the

1 Municipal Assembly, the mayor; correct?

2 A. Mr. Mahic, president of the Municipal Assembly of Bosanska Krupa.

3 Yes.

4 Q. And please understand, with my pronunciations, I mean no

5 disrespect to you. It's all new to me. There were also a number of

6 Bosniaks in positions of authority when you took your position as deputy

7 police commander; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. For example, the president of the Executive Board and the head of

10 the TO were all Bosniaks; correct?

11 A. Yes. But you must bear in mind the fact that before I arrived,

12 the ratio was 4:1 in favour of the Serbs. The chief of the police station

13 was Dragomir Kutlija. He was a Serb. The deputy -- the commander was

14 Lazar Stupar, a Serb. The deputy commander was Slavko Ilic, also a

15 Serb. The assistant to the commander was Branko Sarac, a Serb. And the

16 assistant to the commander was Mirso Suljic, a Muslim, a Bosniak, and the

17 ratio is 4:1.

18 Q. And you also told us that starting in about 1991, because of the

19 recruitment of more Bosniaks, that it started to even out and be closer to

20 50 per cent Serb and 50 per cent Bosniak; correct?

21 A. No, I didn't say it was 50/50. I said that a certain balance was

22 established in the police forces.

23 Q. Okay. And when you say that there's a certain balance, what do

24 you mean by that? I mean, what would the percentages be?

25 A. It's very difficult to say now.

1 Q. Okay. But there started to be more Bosniaks being recruited into

2 the police force; correct?

3 A. More than Serbs or -- I don't understand.

4 Q. Well, let me find your testimony from last week. You said already

5 in 1991, October/November, and I'm at transcript page 79 from last Friday,

6 line 15 -- let me start from the top: "I am saying that the majority in

7 February or March, that's when the balance -- there was much more of a

8 balance, but already in 1991, October/November, what was then also present

9 was the -- more of an increased employment of Muslims, Bosniaks. That's

10 when this process of balancing began."

11 Do you remember testifying to that?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. And if you can tell me, fine; if you can't, that's fine too. Do

14 you remember, roughly speaking, what the percentages were at this time

15 frame in November/October of 1991?

16 A. Up until my arrival, it was 70:30. Perhaps the balance was in

17 favour of the Bosniaks by about 15 or 20 per cent. The balance was more

18 in favour of the Bosniaks by 15 to 20 per cent. But I can't be precise.

19 Q. Okay. Did the increased number of Bosniaks mean that some Serbs

20 within the police force had somehow lost their jobs?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay. Now, you told us -- you told us about the chain of command

23 within the police force, and the police chief -- and again I apologise for

24 my pronunciation, was a gentleman by the name of Velic?

25 A. That's right.

1 Q. And he was the police chief who was ultimately in charge of the

2 force; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The commander-in-chief was Mr. Lazar Stupar, a Serb, that you've

5 already talked about today; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And this is a statement, a sentence I take from your statement,

8 where you tell us: Because of the chain of command, the head of police

9 could not do anything without the commander knowing. Is that still your

10 position today?

11 A. Officially, the commander and the chief of the police station have

12 to cooperate, and there are no issues that both should not be aware of.

13 But there's always another matter. In that period of time, they may have

14 concealed things from each other, if there was anything to conceal, and

15 there were things that they wanted to conceal for sure.

16 Q. Okay. And so that would mean, I take it, at times Mr. Velic would

17 give you orders or information without informing Mr. Stupar.

18 A. No. At the meetings, they were both present, the chief of police,

19 the commander, the assistants, deputies. So this is the team that

20 discussed the security situation in the town at the time, at these

21 meetings.

22 Q. Okay. At any time when Mr. Stupar was still the

23 commander-in-chief of the police department, did the police chief come to

24 you, give you an order, without informing Mr. Stupar, as far as you know?

25 A. Perhaps he did. That concerned going to Arapusa, the visit to

1 Arapusa.

2 Q. Okay. Now, I want to take you back to last week, when you

3 testified about the change in the relationship between the Serbs and the

4 Bosniaks. And you were asked when that changed, and you told the

5 Tribunal -- your answer is at page 80 of the transcript from yesterday

6 [sic], starting from line 12, you said: "Things changed. That could have

7 happened already in 1991, when the Serbs wanted to establish a community

8 of Serb municipalities of Krajina. It was from then that they put

9 everything into this objective for the municipality of Bosanska Krupa.

10 They were -- they established the Serb municipality of Bosanska Krupa.

11 From then on, that's when animosity started to develop and increase

12 between Bosniaks and the Serbs."

13 Do you remember testifying that way?

14 A. Yes. It was something like that.

15 Q. Isn't it true that well before the formation of the Serbian

16 Bosanska Krupa there were increasing tensions between the Serbs and the

17 Bosniaks?

18 A. Not to the extent to which you assume that such tension existed.

19 Q. Okay. I wasn't there, so I don't assume anything. But let me

20 just talk to you about this. Do you know, do you have any recollection of

21 whether there was a dispute over the erection of a monument for a

22 Mr. Copic or in honour of a Mr. Copic?

23 A. At the time, I was not employed in the police. The writer Copic.

24 Q. To tell you the truth, sir, I don't know. I guess my question

25 is: Was there a dispute over the building of a monument for this

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1 individual? If you know.

2 A. Well, I know that there was intolerance and I know that there was

3 a certain amount of conflict, but that was on a political level, between

4 the SDA and SDS parties. They discussed whether they should erect a

5 monument to Branko Copic in the town, because such a monument already

6 existed in the town of Bosanska Krupa. It was a political conflict

7 between the SDA and SDS parties.

8 Q. And I take it Mr. Copic was a Serb; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the monument was never built; correct?

11 A. Not at the location where they had intended to build it.

12 Q. Okay. But that was a source of contention between the SDA and the

13 SDS; correct?

14 A. One matter of contention.

15 Q. Was there also contention over what the Serbian population

16 perceived as the dismissal or lessening of Serbs working in municipal

17 government?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you know of any Serb animosity -- let me back up. During 1990

20 or 1991, did the secretariat for National Defence in the municipality, was

21 that closed down?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Okay. Do you know of living in that municipality, do you know of

24 any discussion about a scandal involving some files that was a source of

25 dispute between the SDS and the SDA?

1 A. Yes, I do remember that.

2 Q. And could you tell us, briefly - and I do mean briefly - what was

3 the nature of the scandal, and if it was one, and what was the dispute?

4 A. I don't know all the details. I was not involved in this. But I

5 know that it had to do with the files. Those who appear before this Trial

6 Chamber will be able to answer that better than I. That's the chief --

7 the head of the municipality, who would be able to provide specific

8 answers to these questions. All I know is that this happened and nothing

9 else. I know that the files on conscripts had been taken away, and I know

10 nothing more.

11 Q. Okay. And is it fair to say while you don't know anything about

12 the details, it was a source of a dispute between the SDS and the SDA?

13 A. I don't think so, no. I don't think it was.

14 Q. Okay. And one area that was an area of dispute was the events

15 surrounding the arrest of Milan Martic; correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And that caused a great deal of animosity on both sides, both the

18 Serb side and the Bosniak side; correct?

19 A. I'm not sure I would put it that way, on both sides. There was

20 more animosity, or rather, Serbs were angrier because Milan Martic was

21 arrested, on the basis of an arrest warrant that came from Bosnians.

22 Q. Let's go ahead and talk about the circumstances surrounding his

23 arrest. And it's my recollection that you were not present when he was

24 arrested but you were notified soon after. Am I right?

25 A. You are.

1 Q. And what you were notified -- what you were told, and I'm

2 paraphrasing, was in effect that Mr. Martic had been stopped at a

3 checkpoint in your municipality; correct?

4 A. That is.

5 Q. It was a checkpoint where last week you did not know the ethnicity

6 of the guards. Over the weekend, has anything come to you that would

7 tell you what the ethnicity of the guards who were at the checkpoint was?

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm sorry. In answer to your

9 question, he said the police detachment in Bosanska Otoka was mixed.

10 There were both Serbs and Muslims.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right, Ms. Sutherland.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: "But who was at the checkpoint at the time, I

13 wouldn't know."

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

15 Q. So let me just follow up on that last thing that the Prosecutor

16 read to you. Over the weekend, do you have any additional information,

17 has anything come to you that would tell you who was manning the

18 checkpoint?

19 A. No. It was more than ten years ago, and I do not know which

20 policeman exactly arrested and brought Mr. Martic under custody to the

21 official premises. The police unit in Bosanska Otoka was a mixed one.

22 There were both Serbs and Muslims.

23 Q. And you know from the information that you received that the

24 citizens at the scene were very upset with Mr. Martic's presence in their

25 municipality; correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And they were upset to the point, as you told us in your

3 statement, that they wanted to lynch Mr. Martic; correct?

4 A. You could put it that way.

5 Q. Well, that's what you put in your statement; correct?

6 A. Yes, yes. I did, yes.

7 Q. Okay. And how soon did you -- did you ever go up to the

8 checkpoint yourself?

9 A. You mean where Mr. Martic was arrested?

10 Q. Yes, sir.

11 A. He was arrested at the zeljezni bridge, so he had gone through the

12 checkpoint at Savor Celezni Most [phoen] in Bosanska Otoka a group of

13 citizens identified him and he was stopped and then brought under custody

14 to the police unit.

15 Q. And did you yourself, while he was in custody, while this incident

16 was playing out, did you go up -- were you ever called up to the

17 checkpoint?

18 A. There was no need for me to go to the checkpoint.

19 Q. Okay. Now, would you agree with me that to many Serbs, Mr. Martic

20 was considered a hero?

21 A. For those who identified with him, who wanted to create SAO

22 Krajina and others, he was probably a hero. But to others, he was a

23 criminal who was wanted, and therefore who should be arrested.

24 Q. And what caused at least part of the incident was the fact that

25 there was at least discussion about returning Mr. Martic -- turning

1 Mr. Martic over because he was a wanted -- wanted for extradition I

2 believe, out of Croatia; correct?

3 A. Yes. He was wanted in Croatia.

4 Q. Now, do you know from -- do you know whether or not that the

5 Bosniak citizens remained around the police station after Mr. Martic was

6 taken into custody?

7 A. Yes, they did.

8 Q. Okay. And do you know whether or not -- let me back up. The

9 citizens -- the Bosniak citizens had wanted to lynch him earlier. Do you

10 know whether their attitude had changed at all?

11 A. Up to a point.

12 Q. And what do you mean by that?

13 A. I mean that a large number of policemen were ready to defend

14 Mr. Martic's safety, and that is how it was. That is, citizens couldn't

15 get to Mr. Martic. That is, he was safe; he was secure.

16 Q. Okay. So it is safe to say that someone in the police station

17 felt that the threat to his life was a real threat and they were ready to

18 protect him; correct?

19 A. Mr. Velic, in his capacity as head of police, coordinated with the

20 Bihac security services centre and the republican Ministry of the

21 Interior, and it was crystal clear that Mr. Martic had to be protected,

22 that had to be made safe in every respect, and the police did that.

23 Q. And I understand your answer, but as far as you know, the

24 citizens, the Bosniak citizens, were still upset with his presence even in

25 the gaol; correct?

1 A. Yes, yes. That's right.

2 Q. Now, ultimately, there are negotiations and Mr. Martic is allowed

3 to leave; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that was accomplished by means of the appearance of a federal

6 official coming in from Sarajevo; correct, from the Ministry of Interior?

7 A. Yes. The assistant republican minister, Avdo Hebiba.

8 Q. And at this time, the Ministry of Interior, that position was held

9 on the federal level by a Bosniak; correct? If you know.

10 A. I can't remember. But I think that that was the case.

11 Q. In your position as a police officer, and you were a police

12 officer after you returned to Bosanska Krupa, you were the commander?

13 A. No, I wasn't. I became a commander when -- since Commander Lazar

14 Stupar stayed on the right bank of the Una, with the Serbs, after they

15 crossed -- when I crossed to the left bank, there was no commander, so

16 automatically I assumed this office, and in April 1994 I became head of

17 the police administration, until November 2001.

18 Q. In the seven years that you headed the police administration, from

19 1994 to 2001, did you ever discover in your municipality any documents,

20 any evidence to show that somehow Mr. Brdjanin played any role in the

21 release of Mr. Martic?

22 A. Not personally.

23 Q. Okay. Let me talk to you about another incident that happened in

24 your municipality, and that's when the Serb members of the police force

25 left the main police station and went to Jasenica to set up their station

1 there. You know what I'm talking about, obviously. I think you told us

2 that in your opinion, that they - and I may not have your words correctly,

3 so bear with me - that they were talked into it by Klickovic?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. What sort -- you've described Klickovic as arrogant, bold,

6 and sassy. Was he the sort of individual that could talk them into doing

7 this on his own?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. As I remember, the stations, you had the station in Jasenica, and

10 it lasted for about a week before there was intervention from the police

11 union and someone on the republic level; correct?

12 A. I think you got the point wrongly. The police unit at Jasenica

13 was set up long before that. However, when Serbs left the police station

14 and took away the vehicles and weaponry, then they went to the village of

15 Jasenica and put up there, since they were almost 100 per cent ethnically

16 pure, they put up at the police unit in Jasenica and that is where they

17 carried their operations from.

18 Q. Okay. And I stand corrected. I guess the point I'm trying to

19 make is that this problem was resolved with the intervention of the police

20 unit; correct?

21 A. The -- do you mean the departure of Serbs to Jasenica and the

22 problems that that produced?

23 Q. I mean the departure of the Serb police officers with their

24 equipment and police cars to that village.

25 A. At the intervention of the republican Ministry of the Interior and

1 the trade union who came to Bosanska Krupa, the problem was solved then,

2 and Serb policemen returned to the police station in Bosanska Krupa.

3 Q. Do you know - and if you can confirm this, fine, if you can't,

4 that's fine too - were the Serbs -- the Serbian police officers upset with

5 the fact that in the Martic case, they saw the Bosniaks as siding against

6 them, against the Serbs, and with the Croats?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know what the dispute was about?

9 A. What do you have in mind exactly?

10 Q. Again, I wasn't there, so you would have a better idea of knowing

11 what made the Serbian police officers leave. If you know, fine, if you

12 don't know, that's fine too.

13 A. Well, I suppose you should ask Mr. Klickovic that. I cannot

14 answer it.

15 Q. That's fair. But what you know is that when the Serbian police

16 officers returned, the groups, the Bosniaks and the Serbs, were not

17 working together in the police department; is that fair?

18 A. It isn't. The policemen continued their work. But it wasn't work

19 in the proper sense of the word, because they were obstructing it.

20 Q. Okay. Were Bosniak police officers still patrolling with Serbian

21 police officers?

22 A. Yes, they were.

23 Q. Were Bosniak police officers still manning checkpoints with

24 Serbian police officers?

25 A. In most of the cases, yes.

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1 Q. When you say, "In most of the cases, yes," that leads me to

2 believe that there were some situations where only Bosniak police officers

3 were manning a checkpoint. Is that true?

4 A. We cannot formulate it that way. It depended on the number of

5 policemen. Where one could put together mixed patrols, Muslims and Serbs

6 there, they worked together. However, there were instances where patrols

7 were made only of Serbs or, on the other hand, of Bosniaks, Muslims only.

8 It was very difficult to put together mixed patrols.

9 Q. I take it then that it would also be difficult to put together

10 mixed checkpoints.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Well, I want to use that to talk to you about the incident at

13 Arapusa. And you were not present when this incident happened; correct?

14 A. I wasn't, no.

15 Q. And was the information you got came from other officers and other

16 people that you talked to; correct?

17 A. That day I was on a different shift, and Mr. Velic, the chief of

18 police, called me to the police administration and asked that I go with

19 the investigating team to the village of Arapusa, to make possible an

20 unfettered investigation on the site and I did that.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... talk to you about the

22 investigation. What I want to do is right now find out which you knew

23 about it when you were first assigned to do the investigation, okay? What

24 you were told was that individuals had driven through a checkpoint;

25 correct?

1 A. Since all of us, since all the policemen had Motorolas and they

2 were always on, regardless of whether you were on or off duty, we could

3 all follow things that were happening on the ground, so that I was aware

4 of what had happened in the village of Arapusa.

5 Q. Okay. I just want to take it step by step. What had happened was

6 there was a checkpoint that was manned by Bosniak officers; is that right?

7 A. It was a patrol, a police patrol, in the village of Arapusa, and

8 the checkpoint was manned by the militiamen of the unlawful Serb police in

9 the village called Topovak [phoen]. But they had to go through the

10 territory of Arapusa to get to their village of Bokani. And at the

11 request of the policemen, they did not stop their car, a Yugo, and a

12 bullet was fired, and those others then returned the fire. And those guys

13 were wounded on that occasion. I believe their last name is Bokani or

14 Bokans.

15 Q. And I believe you told us that there were two individuals that

16 were shot inside the civilian car; correct? Is that a yes?

17 A. Yes. It was a Yugo.

18 Q. Okay. And this is something that you know from your investigation

19 upset the Serbian population; right?

20 A. Well, I suppose so. I would say so.

21 Q. Okay. And you know from your investigation they were upset, they

22 being the Serbs, were upset because they perceived this, right or wrong,

23 as a police attack on a Serbian -- Serbian individuals; correct?

24 A. There are -- they were lawful institutions which were doing their

25 job, from the police to the judiciary, and I see no reason at all why the

1 Serb civilians should be all that upset not to trust the judicial

2 authorities, not to believe that they would do their job properly, that

3 is, if there was any criminal responsibility, then that adequate measures

4 would not be taken.

5 Q. This calls for a yes or no answer. Based on your investigation,

6 were the Serbs upset with the shooting? Yes or no.

7 A. I'd say no. I think that the Muslim, Bosniak population was more

8 upset, because Arapusa is a Bosniak village surrounded by fully Serb

9 villages.

10 Q. Let me talk to you about the investigation that you conducted.

11 And I believe you told us earlier that Mr. Velic, the chief of police, was

12 the one who told you to go up there and join in the investigation;

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what you did is that you joined part of an investigative team

16 that went to the scene in the village; right?

17 A. Yes, and the investigating team was set up by the police station

18 and we took two vehicles and went to the village of Arapusa.

19 Q. And to get there, you had to go through some checkpoints,

20 including one, I believe, at Petrovici?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I think it was at this checkpoint that you said that you saw

23 an anti-aircraft gun pointed at a mosque. Do you remember that testimony?

24 A. You misunderstood it. That's not how it was. The first

25 checkpoint was at the hospital, at Govedarnica, and there were Serbs there

1 with weapons. The second one was at Petrovici, and we were stopped there,

2 and M-53 was aimed at us, at our official vehicles, and that's a

3 machine-gun. And the third checkpoint was at the very entrance into the

4 village of Arapusa. The fourth one was up on the hill, on Nebesic hill,

5 and that is where a PAM was aiming at a mosque. And I think two or three

6 mortars, 60 to 80 millimetres each, and 10 to 15 to 20 men in civilian

7 clothes and a few of them in camouflage uniforms.

8 Q. You tell us that the gun was pointed directly at the mosque. Did

9 you get into the -- get behind the gun and look through the sightings to

10 see where it was aimed at?

11 A. No, I didn't look through the sights, but I was 10 or 15 metres

12 away from the PAM, which was aiming -- which was pointing at the mosque,

13 at the minaret. I simply can't be wrong. I was there.

14 Q. And from 10 to 15 feet -- excuse me. From 10 to 15 metres away,

15 even though you can't get -- you were not in the seat looking through the

16 sightings, that's still your testimony; correct?

17 A. You can see it. You can see where a weapon is pointing and you

18 can see that it was pointing at the centre of Arapusa, and of course the

19 most conspicuous object there, and it was a religious object, a mosque.

20 Q. In your statement, you tell us that, I'm quoting: "We were issued

21 with everything that we needed to conduct the investigation and we

22 went --" and I apologise to the interpreters for going so fast. Let me

23 stop and start over: "We were issued with everything that we needed to

24 conduct the investigation, and we went ahead about with it." That's what

25 you said in your statement. I read that as seeing that you were able to

1 do your investigation without any obstructions. Is that what happened?

2 Were you able to do your investigation without any obstructions?

3 A. Yes, you're right.

4 Q. Okay. As part of your -- among the things you did at the scene of

5 the investigation is that you went with the mayor and Klickovic in a car,

6 and I think one of the things you went to investigate was a report that

7 there had been soldiers, the JNA, by the cemetery. Is that right?

8 A. And again, we were -- we do not understand one another.

9 Independent of Mr. Mahic and Klickovic, the judicial authorities and the

10 police were carrying on the on-site investigation, and when that was over,

11 in the meantime, the chief, or rather, the president of the Municipal

12 Assembly, Mr. Mahic, and Mr. Klickovic, arrived meanwhile. And

13 afterwards, that conversation took place, how in the meantime, in the area

14 of cemetery, in the direction of Hasani, some troops had turned up, and at

15 that moment, Mr. Klickovic said: Let's go and check it out. And it was

16 then that I, in the official vehicle, Mr. Klickovic took the seat next to

17 me, and Mr. Mahic, who is the municipal mayor, took the rear seat, and we

18 proceeded -- I mean, to the cemetery, which we just mentioned a moment

19 ago.

20 And some 200 metres from Arapusa is the village of Petrovici, and

21 that is where the first checkpoint, manned by Serbs is, with a log across

22 the road. So Mr. Klickovic gets out of the car, and talks to the

23 civilians, who are armed, and the obstacle is removed and we go through.

24 We reach the cemetery -- and up to the cemetery there were still -- there

25 were -- that is true, no troops there.

1 Q. That was -- you had a report from someone that there were troops

2 by the cemetery. You went and investigated and there were no troops by

3 the cemetery; correct?

4 A. Yes, correct.

5 Q. And what you did is you decided to drive a little further, and

6 when you drove a little further, you came across some older men with

7 weapons and ammunition that were there by the side of the road; correct?

8 A. No. We came across another checkpoint, and I knew it was there

9 because I had been visiting that area some ten days earlier. And there

10 was a group of 15 to 20 armed Serbs in civilian clothes, with -- armed

11 with PAPs. So our vehicle stopped. Mr. Mahic and Klickovic got off and

12 went to talk to those people and I stayed behind with this gentleman who

13 was not armed. And he showed to me about ten crates with ammunition left

14 just below the road.

15 Q. Okay. Let me stop you there. Ultimately, you, Mr. Mahic, and

16 Klickovic head back into town; correct?

17 A. We turned back towards Arapusa, because that was the crossroads.

18 The village of Hasani Svodna. And after that we went back to the village

19 of Arapusa.

20 Q. And it was on the drive back that Mr. Klickovic -- let me back

21 up. On the drive back to the municipality, back to the town, there is

22 discussion, and I'm not trying to get it word for word, but there is

23 discussion, basically: Is there any way that we can reach a peaceful

24 solution? And during the course of this conversation, Mr. Klickovic

25 refers to I guess the mayor in a derogatory and insulting term; correct?

1 A. No. He wasn't insulting to the mayor, but his behaviour was. I

2 mean, he was always an arrogant man. He always tried to exert authority

3 and so on and so forth. They communicated normally, in inverted commas,

4 because they saw each other, they met every day as a rule and they talked

5 every day communicated every day. I mean, their political obligations

6 made them do it.

7 Q. You say Mr. Klickovic always tried to exert authority. He always

8 tried to be in control, to call all the shots, to be the boss. Right?

9 A. Number one. Yes.

10 Q. He was one of the big shots, maybe even number one, with respect

11 to the formation of the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa; would you

12 agree with that?

13 A. I would.

14 Q. Okay. Now, during the course of your examination earlier, the

15 Prosecutor showed you a number of exhibits, starting with Exhibit 2052,

16 and going up to page -- Exhibit 2073. And if you need to look at any of

17 these documents, I'll be glad to get them. I'm not going to ask you about

18 the contents of the documents. I just want you to see if you can recall

19 that the documents that came from the Serbian municipality of Bosanska

20 Krupa, all of those were signed by local party officials. And if you need

21 to look at them, I'll be glad to show them to you. First of all, do you

22 remember seeing signatures at the bottom? I'm just trying to save --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but the transcript does not catch whether you

24 say yes. Please answer yes or no. Because the interpreters have to hear

25 what you say so that they can put it in the transcript.

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1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I saw these images. I saw

2 these images, that they were locals.

3 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

4 Q. Okay. And one of the signatures that you saw on more than one

5 occasion was that of Klickovic's. I know I'm mispronouncing it, but you

6 saw his name; correct, Klickovic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And he signed that many times as commander of the Crisis Staff;

9 correct?

10 A. It is.

11 Q. And what he was doing was -- well, I won't ask that question. Let

12 me move to the next area.

13 I believe you told us that during this time, that tensions were

14 rising, that you, as a police officer, had information about how the

15 Serbian population was being armed. Do you remember telling -- talking

16 about that last week and this week?

17 A. Yes. I wasn't the only one. In the police administration, we

18 witnessed in a number of ways and heard a lot of information as to the

19 manner in which the Serbs armed themselves.

20 Q. Let me just focus in on one area, and that has to do with your

21 discussion when you talked about how you would see JNA helicopters flying

22 into Serbian villages. Do you remember telling us about that?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. Now, were you aware that the war in Croatia had displaced many

25 army families and that JNA officers many times didn't have a place to

1 stay? Were you aware of that?

2 A. No.

3 Q. My next question is: Were you aware of any JNA officers,

4 particularly helicopter officers, who were living in Serbian villages in

5 your municipality?

6 A. There weren't any officers in the area of Herna [phoen] who were

7 living there.

8 Q. Well, were there any officers in the municipality of Bosanska

9 Krupa that you were aware of?

10 A. Not as far as I know.

11 Q. Okay. You've talked about how the -- you received reports and

12 investigative reports of the Serbian being armed. Let me ask you this:

13 Was the Bosniak community becoming worried about this?

14 A. Yes, of course.

15 Q. And I realise that was a silly question, but were they, the

16 Bosniak community, sufficiently worried about this that they went out and

17 acquired weapons on their own to defend themselves?

18 A. The question is: Who could they have obtained weapons from? I

19 don't think that they managed to obtain weapons. And I'm talking about

20 the municipality of Bosanska Krupa.

21 Q. Okay. So as far as you know, even if there were any attempts to

22 acquire arms, the Bosniak population was unsuccessful in doing so, because

23 there was no one to get the guns from?

24 A. I think that's right.

25 Q. Now, you talked about also how you discussed at least three

1 different paramilitary groups that you became aware of, and one of them

2 was either the spare ribs or the something ribs, and you described two

3 other groups. And I think you said in the context of the paramilitaries,

4 that they were presumably manipulated by the SDS for their own purposes.

5 Do you remember talking about the manipulation by the SDS?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. And again, going back to number one, Mr. Klickovic, he would have

8 the ability to do that by himself, would he not?

9 A. Probably.

10 Q. Okay. You talked about how the Serbians made a demand for

11 everything on the right side of the river, and they wanted the Bosniaks to

12 take the left side of the river; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And that was an -- although there were negotiations, there was

15 certainly never any agreement reached upon the division of the

16 municipality along the boundary line of the river; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And it was shortly after the negotiations ended that on April 21st

19 of 1992, that the attack on Bosanska Krupa started; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, in the days leading up to the start of the attack, you had

22 personally seen military forces in the hills above the town of Bosanska

23 Krupa; correct?

24 A. I saw armoured civilians and some troops, yes.

25 Q. Okay. And you saw like a PAM, a PAM gun, and some other heavy

1 guns and mortars in the hills surrounding the city; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then you saw a large number of armed men and heard about an

4 even larger number of armed men, armed Serbian men, in the area right

5 around the town; correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. The attack starts on April 21st, and you leave four days later, on

8 April 25th, 1992; correct?

9 A. On the 25th of April I was already on the left bank of the River

10 Una at the time.

11 Q. I guess my point is this: The Bosniaks who were there, including

12 yourself, put up a pretty good defence; correct?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Well, correct me if I'm wrong: I think you told us in your

15 statement that the police arranged for a defence that we could -- so that

16 we could protect the citizens. Do you remember saying that?

17 A. That's correct. The only organised and armed formation was the

18 police. The police attempted to defend the town, while the civilian

19 population moved from one side of the River Una to the other.

20 Q. How many police officers are we talking about?

21 A. The entire active force and the reserve force. That's about a

22 hundred or 150 policemen. Not more than that. I doubt it.

23 Q. And those hundred, 150 policemen had access to automatic weapons;

24 right?

25 A. They all had legal weapons, because they were members of the

1 police station. So they did have weapons which they possessed quite

2 legally.

3 Q. I'm not suggesting that they possessed them illegally. I'm just

4 trying to determine whether or not they had automatic weapons, and they

5 did, didn't they?

6 A. Not all of them. I said that in September, there was a depeche,

7 a communique, according to which the reserve police force was to be

8 increased by a hundred per cent. So all the policemen had automatic

9 rifles or semi-automatic rifles. I don't know what the ratio was, though.

10 Q. Do you know whether if any Bosniak citizens, not affiliated with

11 law enforcement, had any firearms and were joining in the defence?

12 A. I believe so. There were some people who would sell a cow or

13 something like that in order to buy weapons from Serbs, and then they

14 would make themselves available to the patriotic defence of the town. But

15 it was a negligible amount of people, a negligible number.

16 Q. And I understand what you are saying, but could you give us a

17 number of these negligible people? How many do you think there were?

18 A. I couldn't say. I don't have such information.

19 Q. Okay. Now, you remained in the area and you were present in 1995

20 when the town was -- the municipality or the town of Bosanska Krupa was

21 retaken; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And I want you to bear with me on my pronunciations, but let me

24 ask you this: Do you know whether the concrete bridge at Crno Jezero was

25 still standing when you returned?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And do you know whether the concrete bridge over the River Una was

3 still standing upon your return?

4 A. It was there, but it had been blown up, just like the wooden

5 bridge that connected the two banks of the river.

6 Q. And do you know when the concrete bridge and the wooden bridge

7 were blown up? Were they blown up between April 21st and April 25th of

8 1992?

9 A. No.

10 Q. When were they blown up?

11 A. I don't have precise information. It was probably afterwards.

12 Q. Okay. If Mr. Klickovic had given an order to blow up those

13 bridges, would that be another example of him trying to exert authority he

14 didn't have?

15 A. Mr. Klickovic, in his documents, had an order -- among his

16 documents, had an order to blow up those bridges in order to create a

17 natural border so that Una would be a natural border and would separate

18 Bosanska Krupa into two parts.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: This is precisely why Mr. Cunningham is asking you

20 the question, and it is precisely why I allow him to ask the question.

21 Would Mr. Klickovic, in issuing those orders, would he have acted inside

22 his powers or outside his powers?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it would have been within

24 his authority.

25 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

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1 Q. But we know from your testimony that those bridges were not blown

2 up during April or May of 1992; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The last area that I want to talk to you about, sir, is your

5 testimony concerning Mr. Brdjanin, and I don't have the LiveNote in front

6 of me, but my recollection is this: That it was your understanding, what

7 you had understood was that Mr. Brdjanin went to university in Banja Luka;

8 correct?

9 A. I must have understood my friends correctly, friends who

10 recognised him. This is the first time I've seen him. So students from

11 his generation who were with him at the Banja Luka university, but I

12 really don't know.

13 Q. Okay. But my point is this: Those people that supposedly knew

14 him told you that he went to school in Banja Luka; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you know, in fact, that he studied and got one degree in

17 Sarajevo and another degree in Zagreb? Did you know that?

18 A. No. This is the first time I've heard about that.

19 Q. You talked to us or you testified earlier today that you saw him

20 on TV in connection with some sort of political event. Do you remember,

21 roughly speaking, when that was, what month, what year it was that you saw

22 this?

23 A. I can't remember the month, but it was in 1992. That's for sure.

24 And I remember that it was a news programme, something like that, and

25 Mr. Brdjanin attended that meeting and there was a scene indicating that

1 this person was in question. There was nothing else about what was

2 discussed at the assembly. I really don't know anything else. I don't

3 remember the event.

4 Q. Okay. I think you even told us that you saw his signature on TV,

5 on a document.

6 A. No, I didn't say that I saw a signature.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You're right, Mr. Cunningham. The transcript did

9 actually say that. We have got his answer so we can actually ignore that

10 part of the transcript.

11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's fair, Your Honour.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not document, but on the television,

13 the name, the first and last name, appeared on the television. It wasn't

14 on a document. You could see the first and last name of Mr. Brdjanin

15 appear on the screen, as a participant in a meeting of some kind. I don't

16 know which meeting. That's all I can say.

17 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

18 Q. And I understand that you can't remember the exact date. I want

19 to just try very briefly to see if you can try to narrow it down. Did you

20 see Mr. Brdjanin on TV before or after the combat in Bosanska Krupa?

21 A. After the combat in Bosanska Krupa, perhaps towards the end of

22 1992, but so much time has passed and it wasn't that important that it's

23 difficult for me to remember now.

24 Q. Okay.

25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, may I have a moment just to talk to

1 Mr. Ackerman, please?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly, Mr. Cunningham.

3 [Defence counsel confer]

4 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honours, I have no additional questions.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Just to clear this up, before I ask you

6 whether you have a re-examination, Ms. Sutherland. Before the relevant

7 part was -- about this signature business, you were reported here in the

8 transcript as saying: Yes, it was news of the Serb radio television, and

9 so it was a news programme and they were either holding an assembly

10 meeting or something, a convention, and Mr. Brdjanin was there. And there

11 was his signature as the president of the Crisis Staff of Banja Luka

12 region or something.

13 So what you meant saying was that there was his name on the

14 screen, on the TV screen; no? Not his signature on some kind of

15 document?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

18 Ms. Sutherland, do you have a re-examination?

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Just two very small areas.

20 Re-examined by Ms. Sutherland:

21 Q. Sir, you were asked in cross-examination, this is LiveNote page

22 53, about the three paramilitary groups, and that Mr. Klickovic would have

23 had the ability to manipulate these paramilitaries, and you answered that

24 probably. There was four paramilitary groups that you talked about in

25 your testimony earlier today, was there not?

1 A. I'm not sure which the fourth one was.

2 Q. You mentioned paramilitary group from within the Bosanska Krupa

3 municipality, I think in the village of Radici.

4 A. Yes. That was a unit, a working company that came from our

5 territory. So we're talking about three groups that I mentioned, Suha

6 Rebra, Bosanski Novi, Beli Orlovi, the White Eagles. You can still see

7 their graffiti in Bosanska Krupa now. And the third group that was led by

8 Dragan Prastalo, Kudra, from Luska Palanka.

9 Q. And where were the White Eagles from?

10 A. Probably from the territory of Serbia.

11 Q. So is it your opinion that Mr. Klickovic would have been able to

12 manipulate these paramilitaries on his own?

13 A. Yes, by all means.

14 Q. You were also asked about the attack on Bosanska Krupa, at page 55

15 of LiveNote. You said that there were between 100 and 150 policemen

16 trying to defend the town with the legally -- with legal weapons.

17 Approximately how many infantry did you see entering the town on the 22nd

18 of April?

19 A. Well, the infantry entered the town from a number of directions,

20 but the main direction was from the crossroads from Vranjska towards the

21 town and the hospital, or rather, towards the mosque in the centre of the

22 town. So the attack was launched from several directions.

23 Q. Approximately how many people did you see as part of the infantry?

24 A. From the location I was at, it was not possible to see many

25 people, but you could hear a lot of infantry fire, a lot of fire from

1 infantry weapons, from all the directions that I have mentioned.

2 Q. And do you recall how many tanks you saw shelling the town of

3 Bosanska Krupa?

4 A. I didn't see a single tank shelling Bosanska Krupa, apart from a

5 self-propelled rocket which entered the town and descended into Varos, the

6 very centre of Bosanska Krupa, a self-propelled device.

7 Q. You testified earlier today of hearing the shells coming from Serb

8 positions. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, but these were mortar shells, 60 and 80-millimetre mortar

10 shells, recoilless guns, PAPs and PAMs, anti-aircraft guns and

11 anti-aircraft machine-guns. Small arms.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

15 Yes. I am curious about one thing.

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE AGIUS: You kept repeating on more than one occasion that

18 Mr. Klickovic was in a position to manipulate practically all the

19 paramilitary formations that you testified upon. What strengthens your

20 conviction that this would be so? Why are you so convinced that he could

21 manipulate paramilitaries coming from different parts of the territory,

22 including the White Eagles that were, according to you, coming from

23 Serbia?

24 A. For the simple reason that Mr. Klickovic was the president of the

25 Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa, and in

1 documents that, in December 1991, in which he ordered that the Serbian

2 police should arm, it is quite normal to expect that the authority that

3 Mr. Klickovic had in the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa could be

4 used. And I do believe that he exercised this authority to ensure that

5 paramilitary units carried out this work, instead of himself. So he was

6 able to issue direct orders to those paramilitary units.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. That brings us to the end.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can I just ask one follow-up question in relation

9 to your question just asked?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Not really, but I think we should leave it at that,

11 Ms. Sutherland, now.

12 Mr. Saran, this brings us to the end of your testimony, which

13 means basically that, after having spent a week here and an additional

14 day, you are now free to return to your home country. I wish to thank

15 you, on behalf of myself, the Trial Chamber, as well as Judge Janu and

16 Judge Taya, for having come over to give evidence, testimony, in this

17 trial. You will now be escorted out of this courtroom by our usher and

18 you will receive all the attention and assistance you require to enable

19 you to return to your country. I'm sure that everyone in this courtroom

20 will join me in wishing you a safe journey back home. Thank you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, do you think you will finish your

23 cross-examination of Mr. Sebire?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't know, Your Honour. It's a little touch and

25 go. I might. I might, I might not.

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: May I ask you: When we come to the expert witness

3 Patrick Treanor, how long you anticipate or how long you think you require

4 your cross-examination?

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the Prosecution gave me his report

6 last week, I think on Friday. I haven't even had a chance to look at it

7 yet.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: May I ask you to read it and give me some kind of

9 indication by tomorrow morning, please.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I don't know that I can. I have other

11 witnesses that I have to prepare. I'll try, but I can only put in a

12 certain number of hours a day, Your Honour. It's probably quite long.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And Ewan Brown, how long would you expect your

14 cross-examination to last?

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, on both of those, on this new witness

16 schedule, the Prosecutor has given us, I have indicated that both of these

17 witnesses will probably take longer than indicated on this document.

18 Brown, I think, I would probably require a couple of days, just from

19 looking at his report.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We will resume at 1.00. Thank you.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.38 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Sebire, usher.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Sebire, or good afternoon.

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1 Good afternoon to you. You will be cross-examined today by Mr. Ackerman,

2 for the accused. And before you start with your cross-examination

3 replies, may I ask you to repeat the solemn declaration, please.

4 WITNESS: NICHOLAS SEBIRE [Resumed]

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

9 Mr. Ackerman.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, may I have

11 your permission to be seated while I question again today?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Ackerman.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to ask. Please feel free to do what

15 is most comfortable for you --

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you so much.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: -- at any given moment.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:

19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Sebire. As the Judge told you, I'm

20 John Ackerman. I represent Mr. Brdjanin. And I have a few questions to

21 ask you. In the course of my questioning, I'm going to be referring to a

22 number of documents, P2007 is your progress report of 13 August, 2008,

23 that's year 2001 -- 2008 is the addendum of 16 May 2003. I want to refer

24 to Exhibit S281 from the Stakic case, which is your additional report of

25 28 August, 2002. I'm going to be referring to your testimony from 30 May

1 2003. And if you could have in your possession all of those documents, it

2 would probably help us get through this a bit more rapidly, which is what

3 I would like to do?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, you can start, and the usher will

5 make those documents available. Thank you.

6 MR. ACKERMAN:

7 Q. You're employed by the OTP; yes?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sebire --

9 A. Yes. It takes a little longer for the interpretation to come

10 through.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: If there is a problem, let me know.

12 MR. ACKERMAN:

13 Q. And for how long have you been so employed?

14 A. Since the 16th of September, 1999.

15 Q. And because you are employed by the OTP, your testimony in this

16 case contains a certain bias in favour of the OTP's position, doesn't it?

17 A. It would be difficult for me to answer that question, since as an

18 investigator, I was given certain investigatory responsibilities. I

19 carried them out. The reports that I prepared are the results of the

20 investigations that I made and the analysis of documents. I don't know

21 if I can say that that is a prejudice. I don't really know what I can say

22 about that. I can't give you any definite answer.

23 Q. The word I used was "bias" not "prejudice," and they're similar,

24 and I don't know how it was translated to you. Let me ask you this: You

25 are here to put forward in the best way you can the Prosecutor's theory of

1 this case, aren't you?

2 A. The purpose of my work is very simply to make the connection

3 between the various crimes that are mentioned in the indictment and the

4 results of the exhumations and also to produce or to prepare -- to give a

5 general vision of the exhumations in the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

6 Q. And you've presented that data that you have gathered together in

7 the light most favourable to the Prosecutor, haven't you?

8 A. I presented them, that is, as being the results of the

9 documentation that we had and the research that we carried out.

10 Q. But when you -- well, we'll get to it. I'll get there in just a

11 minute. I want to just give you some examples of what I'm talking about.

12 If you look at your first report that we have, which is that document

13 P2007, your progress report of 13 August 2001, in your introduction you

14 use this language, the first sentence: "This report summarises evidence

15 obtained from forensic examination of individual and mass graves exhumed

16 in the so-called Autonomous Region of Krajina." You chose to use the

17 words "so-called" in front of Autonomous Region of Krajina. Doesn't that

18 display some bias on your part against the Autonomous Region of Krajina

19 and the -- that organisation and in favour of Bosniaks?

20 A. No, I don't think so.

21 Q. Well, why do you use the phrase so-called." I mean, that was a

22 real entity, the Autonomous Region of Krajina. It had a constitution, it

23 had members, it had assemblies. It had everything. Why do you say

24 "so-called"? To belittle it?

25 A. No, not at all.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Ackerman.

2 Mr. Sebire, did you prepare your report in French or in English?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The very first one was drafted in

4 French, and the following ones were prepared in English.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So this one, this particular one, was it prepared in

6 French or in English?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The one we're referring to right

8 now, from the 13th of August, 2001, was written in English.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

10 MR. ACKERMAN:

11 Q. I have another question about choice of language that I want to

12 ask you. In your testimony last week, May 30th, it's page 16690 of the

13 transcript, line 22, you're talking about the exhumations from the site at

14 Ribnik, and what you say in your testimony about the bodies that were

15 found in those graves, these were -- and you use the word "victims" from

16 the municipality of Kljuc. In what sense do you use the word "victims" in

17 your reports and in your testimony?

18 A. When you're talking about the Ribnik site, the information that we

19 received about the bodies that were exhumed from that site, they were

20 prisoners who had been transferred from Kljuc to another destination. I

21 admit that I don't quite remember right now exactly where they were

22 transported to, but those people were never seen again from the time that

23 they left Kljuc. When I use the word "victim," it is because we have

24 information or reasons to believe that those individuals were killed, were

25 murdered, after having been either in detention, -- we refer to them as

1 victims that were found in the mass grave at Ribnik.

2 Q. Would you refer to persons who were killed in the course of combat

3 as victims, and have you so referred to them?

4 A. Well, one can speak about combat victims. You can use that word,

5 yes.

6 Q. Well, is that what you do? I mean, do you intend to use that word

7 broadly to include combat victims, or are you restricting it to persons

8 who you believe were murdered in violation of the law?

9 A. I don't think that I made any distinction in my report.

10 Q. How about in your mind? In your mind, how do you use that term

11 you remember my question. Just tell me: In your mind, how do you use

12 that term?

13 A. Well, I think that there is absolutely no difference between

14 someone who is a victim, who fell in a battle in which that person was a

15 participant. In that case, would be a combatant, that is, a victim of

16 that fight in which he was involved. Or the word "victim" in the more

17 specific meaning of the word, that's an individual who was murdered, that

18 person is also a victim.

19 Q. So then would the Trial Chamber be safe in making the conclusion

20 that when in your reports or in your testimony you use the word "victim,"

21 you are not suggesting that this person was killed as a result of the

22 violation of some law but simply that the person was killed?

23 A. No, for a very simple reason, because in my report it's made very

24 clear that all the individuals -- I'm using the word persons in this case,

25 all those persons who died during combats or for which the cause of death

1 is -- no direct link with the events which took place, in the autonomous

2 Krajina region from excluded from the report and this leaves the figures

3 having to do with people who were murdered or who disappeared after having

4 been detained.

5 Q. Well, we're going to come to all of that. So your answer, I

6 believe, is that when you use the word "victim" you're talking about

7 people who you have concluded were killed in violation of law?

8 A. As you're saying it that way, yes.

9 Q. I want to ask you about -- you basically have created two

10 databases, and in your testimony -- it's page 1 -- 16685 and 6, you're

11 talking about the second database, which has to do with proofs of death,

12 and what you said on page 16686, line 1, that it was specifically created

13 in order to have the information entered regarding declarations of the

14 death, regarding the people who have died or were missing in the

15 Autonomous Region of Krajina. Can you tell us how many Serbs -- how many

16 Serb names are in this database of the dead or missing from the Autonomous

17 Region of Krajina?

18 A. I don't have the figures in front of me, but as far as I can

19 recall, there were zero, none.

20 Q. Page 16694, then, of your testimony, your being referred by

21 Ms. Richterova to page 10 of annex 1, which would be annex 1 attached to

22 P2008. That would be your addendum of 16 May 2003. And she is asking you

23 to explain a discrepancy. And I don't understand the answer that you

24 gave, and I'm hoping we can sort this out so it can make some sense. The

25 question she asked was this: "In the second row, we have exhumation

1 Hrustovo 9 Kasapnica, and we can see bodies 18 MNI zero." Can you

2 just briefly describe the discrepancies in these columns." And now the

3 transcript reads, the first sentence -- the first two sentences read like

4 this: "Yes, I can. At this exhumation site, in fact, I should say it was

5 a cream sign [as interpreted]," c-r-e-a-m sign, "that was visited by the

6 Bosnian authorities." Do you have any idea what you actually said at that

7 point?

8 A. I very clearly remember the question that I was asked about the

9 exhumation site or the -- the crime scene, crime sign -- crime scene.

10 Q. Now, let me read the rest of your answer. "On the basis of

11 information from the sole survivor of a massacre, when the Bosnian

12 authorities carried out the on-site investigation certain bodies were

13 returned but not a sufficient number to determine the exact number of

14 individuals present at the scene of the crime. Nevertheless, the report

15 listed the totality of the victims. That is to say, the 18 victims that

16 were involved in this particular incident. But the forensic report stated

17 that it was impossible to determine the exact number of individuals

18 present on the basis of the body parts that were discovered, and it is for

19 this reason that one wasn't able to give a minimum number of individuals,

20 and an arbitrary choice which we had to make was to say that this MNI

21 number was zero."

22 Now, if I understand what you're saying there, you're saying in

23 the annex, we put the figure 18 bodies exhumed from Hrustovo 9 because we

24 had information from one individual who told us that there were 18 people

25 killed there, even though the body parts found at the scene could not

1 support that number. Is that what you're saying?

2 A. Just about. If I could explain a little bit further about what I

3 mean here on the subject. The report that we get about the work that was

4 done on the crime scene in Kasapnica [phoen], in the report, the judge

5 states that through the testimony that he received, he was able to

6 establish there were 18 victims. And so as I indicated before, and as you

7 yourself repeated today, the forensic pathologist said he was not able to

8 determine the minimum number of individuals present at the site. And

9 therefore, since -- we were not able to count the number of victims, we

10 set aside the 18 victims that appear - you look in the line there - that

11 were not considered within the zero being checked with -- in this list.

12 If you look at the annex, having to do with this, which deals with the

13 results of the works of the forensic pathologist, you won't find any

14 information. And we do not have any scientific information to corroborate

15 that specific incident, other than the fact that the human remains that

16 were found there were found at a place that had been described by a

17 witness and that -- and those were the victims -- the remains that he

18 described.

19 Q. So basically, it's based upon a report that you received from a

20 Bosnian judge from a Bosnian cantonal court, which was based upon

21 information that that judge had apparently received from one person who

22 claims to have been a witness and claims that there should be 18 bodies

23 there, and that's how the number 18 gets in this report?

24 A. That's how the figure of 18 is in fact there. And that is also --

25 that's the number 18 which appears on the basis of the information from

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1 the Bosnian judge which is not taken into account in my report. As you

2 just pointed out, there was no way to determine the number of victims and

3 that's why we put in the number 18.

4 Q. In your testimony at page 16699, you're talking about an

5 exhumation that was done at Jama Lisac and the bodies of the two women,

6 Edna Dautovic and Sadeta Medunjanin were discovered there. You recall

7 that; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know if there was ever any determination made as to the

10 cause of their death, either one of them?

11 A. The cause of death was determined -- I can't tell you just like

12 that from my memory. The forensic -- the forensic examinations were

13 carried out by the team by the OTP.

14 Q. In any of your reports, do you have information regarding the

15 cause of their death?

16 A. For those -- in respect of those two specific victims?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. If you just give me a few minutes so that I can check in my

19 report, my 2002 report, from August. In the August 2002 report, I did

20 mention the identification of the two victims, and I give the cause of

21 death of the victims who were exhumed on that site, without going into the

22 specific details of each one.

23 Q. And said what?

24 A. For the 51 victims exhumed on that site, the cause of death that

25 we could say were wounds by gunshot, in two cases they were wounds subject

1 to blunt instruments, and there were other ones, two other occasions where

2 the cause of death was not established.

3 Q. And the two cases where cause of death was not established, do you

4 know if that would have been Ms. Dautovic and Ms. Medunjanin?

5 A. As I've just said, I did not make a detailed list of the causes of

6 death for each of the victims who appear in the report. And so I right

7 now can't tell you whether or not those two women, what their cause of

8 death was, and that remains undetermined.

9 Q. And you certainly have no information about who caused their

10 death, if it was foul play, do you?

11 A. If you're referring to -- if you refer to the report that I

12 prepared in 2002 for the Prijedor mission, in the information that's

13 mentioned about those two specific victims, we have judgements declared

14 that they were deceased, and in the judgement, information is given about

15 the circumstances of their disappearance. For instance, for Edna

16 Dautovic, there is a judgement that was rendered by the municipal Sanski

17 Most court, which states that Edna Dautovic was detained in Omarska, where

18 she was physically abused, and then she was put into a bus and supposedly

19 for a prisoner exchange.

20 Q. But my question was: You don't have any information that would

21 permit you to conclude who caused her death, and the answer to that is you

22 don't for sure; correct?

23 A. The question of knowing who killed that person -- well, that's

24 right. I cannot give you the name of that person. The only thing that my

25 report states is that the last time that she was seen alive, she was in a

1 bus that was leaving the Omarska camp. What is sure -- that's for sure.

2 Anything else I can't add.

3 Q. And the same is true for Medunjanin; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, you have that report, the one you've been referring to.

6 Would you just turn back to page 4 of that report, that report being your

7 additional report of 28 August 2002 from Stakic, Exhibit S281E. You say

8 in the introduction, next to the last paragraph: "The purpose of this

9 report is not to make an assessment on the reliability of the

10 documentation provided to the Office of the Prosecutor. Official bodies

11 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, municipal courts, examining Judges, police

12 officers and pathologists, produced the documentation, and this was done

13 according to their own rules and procedures. It is important to stress

14 the different objectives of the Bosnian authorities and the OTP forensic

15 team. The aim of the Bosnian authorities in the exhumation process is

16 principally of a social and humanitarian character, while the only purpose

17 of the OTP forensic team is the collection of evidence. Given these

18 different objectives and the variation in resources available to the two

19 parties, it is understandable that the standards used by the organisations

20 also differ."

21 You're trying to tell us something there. I'm not sure we

22 understand what it is. It sounds to me like you have some serious concern

23 about the reliability of the documentation provided to the OTP by the

24 officials of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Am I right in drawing that

25 conclusion?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Can you explain what that means? Why do you bring it to the

3 attention of the persons to whom this report was to be given that you

4 cannot make an assessment on the reliability of this documentation? What

5 does this paragraph mean?

6 A. Very simply, that most of the exhumations that we note in the

7 various annexes that are in the report that I prepared refer to

8 exhumations which took place between 1996 and 2000, regarding the forensic

9 team from the OTP, we began to prepare the -- our reports after 1999, then

10 we did some other ones. They were in Redak and Sinac [phoen]. We can,

11 unfortunately, base ourselves for the prior ones only on documentation

12 that was made available to us. All of the bodies were examined. They

13 were buried again and we can simply say that we are relying on the

14 documentation that was provided as such and that we were able to verify

15 through testimony in respect of the cause of deaths of individuals who are

16 identified, but it's true, we did not re-exhume the bodies and carry out

17 forensic examinations on all those bodies.

18 Q. Now, in your answer, you talked about the ability to verify

19 through testimony. Now, when you say "verify through testimony," you are

20 not necessarily referring to sworn testimony in the courts of this

21 Tribunal, but in many cases simply to the statements of witnesses who have

22 not testified or have not provided their statements under oath. Is that a

23 fair statement?

24 A. Yes, that's correct. But not in all cases.

25 Q. We'll actually get to some of these cases in a moment or maybe

1 tomorrow. Now --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't think you'll finish today, Mr. Ackerman, I

3 suppose we can even stop here. We'll have the meeting in my office

4 straight away, because by 2.00, 2.15 maximum, I need to be home for some

5 repairs to be done, which otherwise will take another two months to

6 materialise.

7 Mr. Sebire, you will need to come again tomorrow morning. I don't

8 think your testimony will last long, but please make sure that you are

9 here at 9.00 in the morning, or unless there is some kind of an agreement

10 between Mr. Ackerman and Ms. Korner, at some later point in time. Maybe

11 if it's more convenient for him to be -- to come over late in the day,

12 late in the morning, rather than in the beginning.

13 MS. RICHTEROVA: No. I think 9.00 is fine.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. Thank you.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.38 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of

17 June 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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