1 Wednesday, 18 June 2003
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar. Good morning to you. Could
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case number IT-99-36-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So I take it that you are following what I am saying
12 in a language that you can understand.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take your place.
15 Appearances for the Prosecution.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Good morning, Your Honours. Ann Sutherland,
17 together with Denise Gustin, case manager for the Prosecution.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you.
19 Appearances for Mr. Brdjanin.
20 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm David
21 Cunningham. Today I'm assisted by Aleksandar Vujic, and we have some
22 preliminaries, at the Court's convenience.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we remain in open session for the
24 time being. And yes, who is going to go first? Ms. Sutherland, do you
25 have any preliminaries?
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So then it's Mr. Cunningham.
3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yesterday, Your Honour, the Court wanted a
4 written response to the government's motion dealing with the scheduling.
5 Mr. Ackerman has filed such a motion. I've given a courtesy copy to the
6 registrar. Basically, our position is with respect to the reduction of
7 one-week time in this final arguments, we have no objection to that. We
8 are going to keep our case length the same length, and we would oppose any
9 reduction in the time to file our final briefs from four weeks to three
10 weeks. And that's all set out in the motion that was provided to the
12 The Court also asked me to determine for Mr. Ackerman what our
13 position would be with respect to an extension with respect to the brief
14 due at the end of the government's case. He is filing a motion and
15 respectfully asking the Court for an additional one week to do that brief,
16 and that's the second preliminary matter that I wanted to bring to the
17 Court's attention. And a motion is being filed on that this morning.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Cunningham.
19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: The third matter that I want to bring to the
20 Court's attention deals with the witness that we're dealing with today.
21 My recollection is this witness does not have any protective measures.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: That's my recollection, too. Yes.
23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: It is referenced in this witness's statement that
24 he gave to the OTP that he was working on a book that he sought to get
25 published. Yesterday when they proofed him it is my understanding that he
1 brought with him a 172-page-long B/C/S only transcript of his recounting
2 the events surrounding this municipality. We certainly didn't have enough
3 time to get that translated last night. Mr. Ackerman has taken that to
4 the Translation Service today. What I would propose to do, and if the
5 Court agrees, I'm going to do as much cross-examination as I can today.
6 When we get the document, if there's anything needed, we would alert this
7 Court to that fact, but I'm prepared to move forward, as far as I can with
8 as much as I can in the absence of that book, journal, whatever he would
9 like to call it. But I would like to have the opportunity to review that
10 document and have the opportunity, if additional cross-examination is
11 needed, to call him back. And we would be certainly willing to do that
12 during our case. And the reason I bring that up with our case is I'm
13 discovering that --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I understand that, Mr. Cunningham. Please.
15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Because I understand that the backlog facing the
16 Translation Services, sometimes it can take a while to get the
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
19 Ms. Sutherland, do you have anything to say or to state with
20 regard to what Mr. Cunningham --
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour. I agree with what
22 Mr. Cunningham has just said.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So I can confirm here now, because if you
24 don't agree, let me know, but the position is this: You certainly have a
25 right and we recognise that right that if this document has been forwarded
1 to you only between yesterday and today, and it needs to be translated
2 before you can really understand it, then that will be taken into
3 consideration. You will have a right either to cross-examine the witness
4 during your case, if you're not in a position to cross-examine him during
5 the Prosecution's case, or else you are also free to ask for his
6 production, to be brought forward here and be one of your witnesses. You
7 can also do that. And if that is the case, more or less the procedure
8 here is very flexible. There isn't much difference between the Rules
9 governing examination-in-chief and cross-examination.
10 So more or less I can guarantee you every opportunity that you
11 need to have this witness brought over again for any cross-examination or
12 examination-in-chief, if necessary.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, just so we're clear, I don't think
15 Mr. Cunningham wants the witness to become his witness during his case,
16 but just cross-examination will occur during his case.
17 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And that was the point that I was trying to make.
18 I don't have any intention to call him. I was just thinking if there's
19 additional cross-examination --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, but I'm telling you that you're also free
21 to call him if you feel that he can be of assistance to you. It has been
23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I understand it's been done, but I don't think
24 this is going to be of use.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But you will have every opportunity to have
1 him brought over again to have him cross-examined even during your case.
2 So Ms. Sutherland, do you think we can proceed with the witness in
3 open session without any problems?
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. He doesn't request any
5 protective measures.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's bring in the next witness. And
7 in the meantime, Mr. Cunningham, I don't know if you have been served with
8 this, but do you remember there was a Prosecution motion to exempt
9 specific material from immediate disclosure, a request for protective
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, they were given an inter parte --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: You have?
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: We filed a motion ex parte, but we advised the
14 Defence in an inter parte motion that we had filed an ex parte motion with
15 you. But we filed the withdrawal of the motion --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. That's what I was going --
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- inter parte simply to advise both the Chamber
18 and the Defence at the same time that we were withdrawing the motion.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: And Your Honour, there is a decision on
21 protective measures outstanding for the witness who is going to be
22 testifying next Monday. That is in relation to BT94.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: BT94. Reinhold, will you look into that? And there
24 is, Mr. Cunningham, before the witness -- the witness is here.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: There is another motion which was filed on the 16th
2 of June, asking for protective -- certain protective measures regarding
3 Witness BT97. If you could perhaps in the course of today's sitting
4 inform us. There is no mention of a closed session, so there shouldn't
5 be --
6 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honours --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: There shouldn't be any problems.
8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Is that with respect to BT 94 and 97?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: No. This is with respect to BT 97 only what I'm
10 talking about.
11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'll let the Court know at the end of the first
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. This was filed on the 16th
14 of this month.
15 Good morning, Mr. Cirkic.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you hear what I am saying being interpreted in a
18 language that you can understand?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: So that makes things easier, because it's one of the
21 most important things. You're here to give evidence. You know that. And
22 you are about to start giving evidence in the trial against Radoslav
23 Brdjanin. Our Rules require that before you start giving evidence, you
24 enter a solemn declaration, practically an oath, that in the course of
25 your testimony you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and
1 nothing but the truth.
2 Madam Usher, who is standing next to you, is going to give you the
3 text of the solemn declaration. Please stand up, read it out aloud, and
4 that will be your solemn undertaking with this Tribunal.
5 WITNESS: RASIM CIRKIC
6 [Witness answered through interpreter].
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a chair. Make yourself
10 comfortable. Make yourself comfortable and let's proceed. Have you ever
11 given testimony before in your life?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think I had better explain to you a little bit
14 what's going to happen, which is pretty much a simple procedure. You see
15 that there are two parties in this trial, the Prosecution and the Defence,
16 and they both have a right to ask you questions, and that's what's going
17 to happen today. Corresponding to this right, you have an obligation,
18 once you have accepted to come forward and give evidence, to answer all
19 the questions that are put to you as fully and as truthfully as possible,
20 in line with the solemn undertaking that you have just made, and I'm sure
21 you understand me. And this duty, this obligation, arises not only from
22 the solemn declaration, but also because each party has the right to know
23 the truth and to get the truth out of you. So you have no right to draw
24 or to make any distinctions between questions coming from the Prosecution
25 or questions coming from the Defence. Your duty is to answer all
1 questions, irrespective of where they are coming from, as fully and as
2 truthfully as possible.
3 You will first be asked questions by Ms. Sutherland, who I suppose
4 you have met already, and she will then be followed by Mr. Cunningham. If
5 you have any problems in the course of your testimony, if you are feeling
6 tired, you'd like to rest, just tell me and we will have a rest. All
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Good. Thank you.
10 Ms. Sutherland.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Examined by Ms. Sutherland:
13 Q. Sir, can you please state your full name.
14 A. My name is Rasim Cirkic.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, there's something wrong now with
16 my -- I think it needs to be changed. It just went dead completely.
17 [Technical difficulty]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can the interpreters say something, please.
19 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two,
20 three. One, two, three.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I am not receiving anything. It suddenly went
22 dead completely. I'm not receiving anything.
23 We can proceed. I mean, I don't mean to -- no, no, no. It's
24 everything is in order except that it's not coming through. It was coming
25 through and then I heard a sound and that was it. I thought it was the
1 headphones, but it's not the headphones. It's the set here. But in any
2 case, I can follow on the monitor. Please proceed, Ms. Sutherland.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Cirkic, you were born on the 28th of March, 1957?
5 A. That's right.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: It's coming through now. It's all right.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. Where were you born?
9 A. Dabovci Vrbanjci.
10 Q. And that's in the Kotor Varos municipality?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. Your ethnicity is Muslim?
13 A. It is.
14 Q. You're married, with two children, aged 22 and 20?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. You attended primary school in Vrbanjci, in Kotor Varos
17 municipality, and completed secondary school in Banja Luka in 1975?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. You performed compulsory JNA military service in 1976 and 1977,
20 and you were attached to the Atomic/Biological/Chemical branch of the
21 army, located in Krusevac, Serbia?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you worked in the decontamination department?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In 1977 you became a civil servant in the army, and you worked in
1 the military barracks Precko in Zagreb in the military warehouse?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You also worked in Slovenia?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. With the military. Did you work in any other parts of the former
7 A. No.
8 Q. You ended up as manager of the warehouse and you worked there
9 until September 1991, when you left the army after the war in Croatia
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You were a member of the Communist Party until 1989, and after
13 that you did not become a member of any political party?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. You're currently employed as a factory worker; is that correct?
16 A. It is.
17 Q. When you arrived in The Hague, you had an opportunity to review
18 your statement that you gave to members of the Office of the Prosecutor,
19 and you made three minor changes to that statement?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I now want to turn to events which occurred in the Kotor Varos
22 municipality in 1992.
23 A. All right.
24 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you returned from Croatia to the
25 village of Cirkici in September 1991?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Was there a radio or television station in Kotor Varos
4 A. There was no television station in Kotor Varos. We were taking
5 over the programme from Banja Luka.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak up or come closer
7 to the microphone.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. Sir, can you please raise your voice so the interpreters can hear
10 what you're saying.
11 Was there a radio station in Kotor Varos?
12 A. No, as far as I can remember.
13 Q. At that time, September 1991, what television transmissions did
14 you receive? You mentioned a moment ago, I think, Banja Luka.
15 A. Yes.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Will the witness please come closer to the
17 microphones and speak up. We can barely hear him.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sir, can you just move your chair in a little bit
19 closer to the microphones.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, usher, please.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND:
22 Q. Sir, did you receive television transmissions from any other place
23 but Banja Luka?
24 A. No.
25 Q. What were the nature of the programmes?
1 A. These programmes were by and large about crimes committed against
2 the civilian population in Croatia and how the Yugoslav People's Army was
3 trying to defend Yugoslavia, so that it was a propaganda programme.
4 Q. Did the programmes change at all?
5 A. All these programmes were very similar.
6 Q. Did this intensify between September 1991 and May 1992?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you give the Court some examples of what you saw on the
10 A. I can't do it right now. I just can't.
11 Q. Were the non-Serb residents believing what they saw on the
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What, in your view, was the primary objective of what was being
16 A. The spreading of untruths about the real events.
17 Q. Were there TV programmes about things which were occurring in
18 other municipalities within the Autonomous Region Krajina, for example, in
19 Prijedor, Sanski Most, Kljuc, other municipalities?
20 A. I only followed one case in a place called Hambarine, which is
21 near Prijedor.
22 Q. And what was shown on the television about Hambarine?
23 A. They showed a group of Bosniaks and Croats who wanted to take over
24 power in Prijedor, in the municipality of Prijedor. These people were
25 depicted as extremists.
1 Q. I want to turn now to a different topic. Do you know Radoslav
2 Brdjanin personally?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you ever see Radoslav Brdjanin?
5 A. Yes. I saw him on television.
6 Q. Do you recall when this was that you first saw Radoslav Brdjanin
7 on television?
8 A. I think it was towards the end of 1991 and at the beginning of
10 Q. On how many occasions did you see him on television?
11 A. On several occasions, but I don't know the exact number.
12 Q. What was the nature of the programme in which you saw Brdjanin?
13 A. I think they were the programmes of political parties or political
14 party activists.
15 Q. Do you recall what was being discussed?
16 A. There was a campaign for Banja Luka to become the capital of
17 Republika Srpska.
18 Q. I want to turn now to another topic, and that is the arming of the
19 Serb and Muslim population.
20 A. Very well.
21 Q. To your knowledge, were the Muslim population purchasing weapons?
22 A. Yes, they were purchasing weapons, but in small quantities.
23 Q. Who were they purchasing the weapons from? Do you know?
24 A. As far as I know, they purchased weapons from Serbs, that is to
25 say from reservists who were returning from the front and who would sell
1 those weapons.
2 Q. Do you know what sort of weapons they were purchasing?
3 A. Mainly small arms, semi-automatic and automatic rifles, and small
4 quantities of ammunition.
5 Q. Are you aware that the Serbian population were being armed?
6 A. Yes. That was visible.
7 Q. Can you describe for the Court how you -- what you saw?
8 A. The people going to join the reserve forces, they would return
9 with automatic rifles and uniforms.
10 Q. And these weapons weren't being returned to the barracks?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you know what happened to the weapons that were stored in the
13 TO building?
14 A. As far as I know, they were transferred to Banja Luka.
15 Q. Is that to the JNA barracks in Banja Luka?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. At some point did you start night patrols in your village or other
18 Muslim villages that you know of?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Why did you do this?
21 A. Serbian reservists starting entering Muslim and Croatian villages
22 and spreading panic among the population. This happened during the day,
23 and one incident I can remember is when a number of reservists went to the
24 village of Bilice.
25 Q. Did you attend a meeting that was held on or about the 8th of
1 June, 1992?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What was the reason for this meeting?
4 A. We wanted to avoid a war at all costs.
5 Q. Who attended the meeting?
6 A. There was a group of about a hundred people, Croats and Bosniaks.
7 Three representatives of the JNA and a local man who was the
8 representative of the Serbs.
9 Q. What was the situation like during the meeting?
10 A. It was very tense.
11 Q. What was the outcome of the meeting?
12 A. We didn't receive any of the guarantees that we had requested. We
13 were even threatened. We were told that if something happened, we would
14 be to blame for everything.
15 Q. What were the guarantees that you were seeking?
16 A. We had asked for guarantees that there wouldn't be any attacks
17 from the side. We asked for the army units to withdraw, the ones that
18 were positioned around Maslovare. And we also asked for excessive
19 behaviour and uncontrolled behaviour of reservists to stop, that took
20 place in the village of Vrbanjci --
21 THE INTERPRETER: And could the witness please repeat the names of
22 the villages.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND:
24 Q. Sir, the interpreters have asked you to repeat the names of the
25 villages. They didn't quite hear what you said.
1 A. The local commune of Maslovare, if you're referring to the place
2 where the units were stationed.
3 Q. And then I think you asked for excessive behaviour and
4 uncontrolled behaviour of reservists to stop, and that was taking place in
5 the village of Vrbanjci.
6 A. Yes, in the village of Vrbanjci, groups of reservists often
7 appeared. They were drunk and they would behave in an uncontrolled
9 Q. And these are Serb reservists you're referring to?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. What did you conclude from the meeting?
12 A. I personally expected something to happen at any moment. The
13 situation was extremely tense.
14 Q. Do you recall the date when power was taken over by the Serbs in
15 Kotor Varos?
16 A. Yes. On the 11th of June, in the morning.
17 Q. Where were you on that day?
18 A. I was in Cirkici.
19 Q. Where is Cirkici located?
20 A. North of Vrbanjci.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown P2120. It's the
22 ethnic composition map.
23 Q. Sir, using the pointer that's beside you on the -- looking at the
24 map on the machine which is to your right, can you point on the machine to
25 your right your village where you lived in Cirkici?
1 A. [Indicates]
2 Q. Thank you. If that map can stay there. We will be using that
4 Can you describe for the Court what you saw from your village that
6 A. I apologise. Around dawn, Ramic Safet and his family appeared in
7 my village. He had a large family. They came with a TAM lorry and they
8 said that Vrbanjci had been occupied. After several minutes, another man
9 appeared and he confirmed this. And at about 10.00, from Vrbanjci, a
10 group of civilians from Vrbanjci headed towards Cirkici. They passed
11 through Bara at the river of Bosanka, and headed towards my village.
12 Q. Sir, Cirkici, the topography, is that situated on a hill?
13 A. The village goes from the river to Cirkino Brdo. It's on a slight
15 Q. And that river goes from Vrbanjci to which village?
16 A. It goes from Plitska towards Rujevica. It separates Hanifici
17 between Cirkici and Vrbanjci.
18 Q. Sir, from your village, approximately how much of the Kotor Varos
19 municipality would you be able to see?
20 A. From one place in Cirkino Brdo, you can see about 80 per cent of
21 the municipality of Kotor Varos.
22 Q. And you said that early that morning, on the 11th of June,
23 Vrbanjci had been attacked. What about the town of Kotor Varos? Were you
24 able to see anything there?
25 A. Not at the time, but after a while, from the direction of Kotor
1 Varos, smoke appeared from a number of houses.
2 Q. By the end of the day, how many refugees from Vrbanjci had come to
4 A. I can't remember the exact number, but between 300 and 400 people.
5 That would be my assessment. They were mainly women and children.
6 Q. Had they been told by anybody to go to Cirkici?
7 A. Yes. They all said that a Serbian officer had directed them to
8 Cirkici. At least, that's what they told us.
9 Q. Kotor Varos and Vrbanjci, they were both on the main road between
10 Banja Luka and Doboj?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And what is that part of -- what was that part of the country
13 referred to in 1992, that road between Banja Luka and Doboj?
14 A. I think they called it the corridor.
15 Q. Sir, the men from Vrbanjci, where did they seek the shelter? Did
16 they all stay in Cirkici or did they move somewhere else?
17 A. They first went to Hanifici, and then in the evening they moved on
18 to Cirkici, from Hanifici.
19 Q. Were you able to see from your village the actual attack or were
20 you just told about it when the men came from Vrbanjci?
21 A. I didn't see combat vehicles entering Vrbanjci itself. I only
22 heard this.
23 Q. What happened on the 12th of June?
24 A. The attack on Hrvacani began on the 12th of June.
25 Q. Were you able to see this from your village?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What did you see?
3 A. First of all, we heard the sound of shots, and then we saw that a
4 building was on fire.
5 Q. How far, approximately, as the crow flies, is it between Cirkici
6 and Hrvacani?
7 A. I don't know exactly.
8 Q. Is it the next village, the next big village to the east of
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you see --
12 A. It would be the north-east.
13 Q. Were you able to see how this village was attacked?
14 A. We heard shooting from various firearms. At the beginning it was
15 infantry, from infantry weapons. Then we could hear mortars, and probably
16 anti-aircraft machine-guns, because you could hear bursts of fire and you
17 could see bullets.
18 Q. And is it that you recognised the noises that you were hearing
19 because of your experience in the army?
20 A. Yes. Other schools recognise the use of recoilless cannons or
21 anti-aircraft machine-guns.
22 Q. You mentioned that you saw a building on fire. Was there more
23 than one building?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you describe for the Court what you saw?
1 A. We first saw a building on fire, and you could see the flames and
2 smoke coming out of it, and several minutes later -- we didn't see flames
3 in the other houses, because part of the village of Hrvacani is on the
4 opposite side -- is opposite to the slope, so you could only see the smoke
5 coming out.
6 Q. Did you see any infantry into the village?
7 A. Yes, you could see how the infantry was approaching the village.
8 Q. What did they do when they entered the village?
9 A. First, tractors started coming out, and some lorries with
10 equipment on them. And then there was more and more smoke, more and more
11 flames coming out of the houses.
12 Q. What did the Muslim population from that village do?
13 A. They moved to the neighbouring Croatian village, to Plitska. They
14 passed through an area, first the civilians went, the women and children,
15 and in the early evening the men followed.
16 Q. Later that day, did you see any Serb soldiers entering the village
17 of Hanifici?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Approximately what time did that occur?
20 A. It was in the afternoon, at about 4.00, but I don't know the exact
22 Q. Were the inhabitants still in the village?
23 A. No, they weren't. Some of them had already gone to Cirkici, and
24 others to Plitska.
25 Q. Did you see what the soldiers did in the village of Hanifici?
1 A. First, one house, Botic Galib's house, was set on fire, and then
2 several other houses. Between 17 and 20 houses were set on fire.
3 Q. On the 13th of June, 1992, what did you see happening on that day?
4 A. I don't remember the date.
5 Q. Was Plitska attacked at all?
6 A. Yes, it was attacked. Plitska was attacked one day after Hrvacani
7 had been attacked.
8 Q. Can you -- looking at the map, P2120, we can see the -- where you
9 pointed to the village of Cirkici, and we can see Hrvacani next to that,
10 and Hanifici just below Cirkino Brdo.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then Plitska, which is to the north-west of Cirkino Brdo.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you've just told us that as these villages were being
15 attacked - and we can also see Vrbanjci down on the river --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- which is directly south from Cirkino Brdo. When all these
18 refugees, when all these -- I'm sorry, when all these villages were being
19 attacked and refugees were going from one village to the next, did a lot
20 of refugees end up in Cirkino Brdo, Cirkici?
21 A. Yes. All the refugees from Hrvacani, Hanifici, and from Plitska
22 finally ended up in Cirkino Brdo.
23 Q. Did anyone try and negotiate with the Serbs about the refugees?
24 A. Yes. Three persons tried to establish contact with the Serbs in
1 Q. What was the outcome of that meeting?
2 A. The outcome of the meeting was that two of them returned, and a
3 third person was detained by the Serbian authorities.
4 Q. Were you told to surrender your weapons?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Approximately how many, and what type of weapons were surrendered?
7 A. Several automatic rifles, several hunting rifles, and some
8 ammunition. We didn't have anything else.
9 Q. Did you possess a weapon?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Did you surrender it?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Why not?
14 A. I didn't trust them.
15 Q. Did you come to know of a massacre which occurred in Vrbanjci?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How did you learn about this?
18 A. A man appeared in my village, someone who lived in Vrbanjci. His
19 name was Camko Hadziric. And he stayed with Hamdzic Zifon [phoen] and I
20 found out about the massacre from him.
21 Q. What did he tell you?
22 A. He said that he and a group of seven or eight men had been taken
23 to the centre of Vrbanjci, to a cafe, and they were ordered to go to
24 Malovo [phoen] and to collect some bodies. Camko Hadziric recognised his
25 son on that occasion and some other people, and he told me the names of
1 other people who had been killed. The group with which Camko carried out
2 this task never appeared again, the group with which he collected these
4 Q. And what happened to Camko?
5 A. About ten days later, ten days after Camko had appeared in my
6 village, a Serbian patrol appeared and took him away. They said that
7 Balaban needed him and Camko never appeared again.
8 Q. Who was Balaban?
9 A. At that time, I didn't know who Balaban was. I found out who he
10 was later on.
11 Q. What was his first name?
12 A. Nenad Balaban.
13 Q. Where did he work?
14 A. I met Balaban in Kotor Varos, in the police station. He
15 introduced himself as the chief of the Security Services Centre.
16 Q. From your village, were you also able to see the attack on Vecici?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And also the attack on Sokoline?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Would you briefly tell the Court what you saw in relation to the
21 attacks on those two villages.
22 A. For several evenings in a row, fire was opened from mortars, and I
23 believe recoilless guns, from the Serb village of Serdari, and it went on
24 day after day after day, irrespective of the time of the day. And then
25 one day they turned up from the direction of Uzlomac, between Cirkici and
1 Hanifici. The planes came up and bombed Vecici. Six planes came, five
2 opened fire on Vecici, and the sixth returned to Kotor Varos and fired
3 rockets on the village of Sokoline. The planes were flying low so that
4 one could easily see the markings on them, to know who they belonged to.
5 Q. And who did they belong to?
6 A. The markings were the markings of the Yugoslav People's Army, and
7 there was a flag of the former Yugoslavia on them.
8 Q. At some point did you go to the village of Vecici; and if so,
10 A. Yes. A few days later, yes, I was in Vecici.
11 Q. And what did you see there?
12 A. At that moment, I couldn't see a single house standing up and
13 intact. All the houses had been shelled and damaged. I saw craters made
14 by bombs of major destructive power. The scars left by flames. And what
15 attracted my attention was part of the forest where all the leaves had
16 fallen off. And at that time of the year, I mean, you couldn't see a
17 forest, a leafless forest.
18 Q. The villages that we've --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Sutherland, because this calls for a
20 further question for sure.
21 What is your explanation or your conclusion when -- or what was
22 your conclusion or your explanation when you noticed that all the leaves
23 had fallen off, the time of the year when they should be on the tree? Did
24 you come to any conclusion? And if you did, what did you base it upon?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My conclusion was that a chemical
1 must have been used, and this was then confirmed by people who lived there
2 and said that after they had been bombed, had certain health problems.
3 That is, they were all coughing. And they said that there was a lot of
4 smoke after they had been bombed, and that's why I decided those must have
5 been some gases, some poisons, some irritants which made people cough.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. The village, did you hear from others whether women were used as
8 human shields?
9 A. Yes. I heard how the Serb units, when entering Vecici, got some
10 20 minutes and forced them to walk in front of them and made them walk in
11 front of them as they entered Vecici [as interpreted]. Those women were
12 not allowed to leave immediately. They were taken back to Vrbanjci and
13 then transferred to Obodnik, and only from there were they taken back to
15 Q. The villages that we've mentioned, Vrbanjci, Vecici, Hanifici,
16 Hrvacani, that were all attacked, they're all Muslim villages, aren't
17 they, predominantly Muslim people lived in those villages in 1992?
18 A. Hrvacani was 100 per cent Muslim; Cirkino Brdo, likewise;
19 Hanifici, likewise. In Hanifici there were some Serbs and Croats, but the
20 majority was Muslim, and Plitska was a hundred per cent Croat.
21 Q. And Sokoline is also majority Croat population, is it not?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. As a result of these attacks on the villages, was any sort of
24 defence set up in your village?
25 A. At the outset, we had no military formations. We merely tried to
1 defend -- to protect the population, so that we organised ourselves and
2 decided that if we saw that some units were coming, that we should pull
3 out the -- evacuate the population into the woods. So that we didn't have
4 any army formations.
5 Q. Approximately how many were in this defence of your village?
6 A. There were not very many people who were fit for combat. Only
7 about 18 people. The rest were either elderly or young people.
8 Q. And this group of 18, how many weapons did they have between them?
9 A. Hardly any. We had some three hunting rifles. I believe there
10 was one automatic, one semi-automatic rifle, and a few pistols, and very
11 little ammunition.
12 Q. Did your group or any other groups that had been set up to defend
13 their villages capture any Serb soldiers?
14 A. As far as I know, not in the early days, but later on, a group
15 captured four Serb soldiers in the area of Kotor. It's in the
16 municipality of Kotor Varos, that is, a part of Kotor Varos.
17 Q. Do you know approximately when this occurred?
18 A. I don't know the exact date.
19 Q. Where did you take the Serb soldiers that were captured?
20 A. They were taken over and -- taken and handed over in Vecici.
21 Q. What were the circumstances? How did you capture them? What were
22 they doing?
23 A. Since they came from a part of Kotor Varos, from a part of Kotor,
24 people who had fled to local Croat villages, and they were coming back
25 every day to get some food or clothes or something, because people had
1 taken first initially only basic necessities. So that group had gone back
2 to get some food and some other necessities, and they captured four Serb
3 soldiers who were, I think, in a vehicle which was either an ambulance car
4 or what. I don't know exactly, because I didn't see that car.
5 Q. Were any of your -- were any Muslims or Croats killed during this
6 attack -- this incident?
7 A. A few days earlier, perhaps a day or two, a group of seven, eight
8 Croats and Muslims was killed in the area of Kotor.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. He's not picked up your question,
10 Ms. Sutherland.
11 Ms. Sutherland asked you whether on this occasion when you
12 captured the four Serb soldiers, any of your own got killed. Not days
13 before, but on that specific occasion.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. No.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I give him back to you, because you have a problem
17 MS. SUTHERLAND:
18 Q. Do you know of a man called Sprdjo?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Do you know what happened to him?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. Can you tell the Court?
23 A. Sprdjo was one of the people in the group that I mentioned a
24 moment ago, who was killed. His body wasn't found with the other bodies.
25 It had been taken to Kotor Varos.
1 Q. And what was done with his body in Kotor Varos?
2 A. In Kotor Varos, Sprdjo was put on a combat vehicle and drove him
3 around in order to show how they had caught a major figure.
4 Q. And where was he driven to?
5 A. In the direction of Banja Luka or Maslovare. I'm not sure.
6 Q. Was this televised?
7 A. Yes. I didn't see that programme, but I heard from other people
8 that it was shown on television. I heard it from Sprdjo's nephew, who
9 buried him after his body was returned.
10 Q. What happened to the four Serb soldiers that were captured?
11 A. As far as I know, I heard that Minja, the name of one was Minja,
12 and the others, I don't know. I didn't have any contact with them.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but --
14 MS. SUTHERLAND:
15 Q. So you don't know what happened to them?
16 A. I don't.
17 Q. Do you know a person called Redjo Vatrac?
18 A. Vatrac. Could I hear the last name again, Your Honours?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Redjo Vatrac.
20 A. Yes, Your Honours, I know him. He's my wife's brother.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND:
22 Q. Was he killed?
23 A. Yes, he was killed.
24 Q. What were the circumstances in him being killed?
25 A. Redjo and a group of four or five men were intercepted in a Croat
1 village, and there was an exchange of fire. Redjo returned to a house
2 which was set on fire by a bomb. I suppose that is what happened, because
3 we found there a body which had been charred.
4 Q. I want to move now to the 14th of August, 1992. On that day, were
5 the villages -- the people in the villages of Vrbanjci and Cirkici rounded
7 A. Yes. Cirkici was surrounded during all this time.
8 Q. I'm sorry. I wasn't clear in my question, but I will go back.
9 Between when the takeover occurred on the 11th of June, 1992, until the
10 14th of August, 1992, are you saying that the village of Cirkici was
11 surrounded all of that time?
12 A. If you look at the map, you will see that there is a Serb village
13 behind it. On the other side is Serdari, on the other side, Vrbanjci. So
14 that we could not really move far away from the village.
15 Q. And did there come a time when all these civilians from villages
16 surrounding Vrbanjci were all rounded up?
17 A. Some of the civilians from Vrbanjci came to Cirkici and stayed
18 there for a while. Some of them returned to Vrbanjci and then came back
19 to Cirkici once again. And part of the population had moved over to
21 Q. At some point did the Serbs start rounding up all the civilians,
22 the women, the men, the children, the elderly?
23 A. Yes, and they brought them to the petrol pump, an unfinished one
24 in Vrbanjci, near a place called Lipa.
25 Q. And do you know what happened to the population at that point?
1 A. That population was taken in the direction of Kotor Varos.
2 Q. Were the men separated from the women and the children?
3 A. I couldn't see any men among those civilians.
4 Q. Where were the women and children taken?
5 A. They were taken in different vehicles in the direction of Kotor
7 Q. Did you become aware of a large number of men who were killed at
8 Cejvani and Lihovici?
9 A. Not at the time. I learnt that later, when I was captured, from a
10 man who was brought to this later, whose name was Alija Cejvan.
11 Q. And he told you about this?
12 A. That's right. He told me about this at some point. He told me
13 what had happened.
14 Q. At one point you mentioned just a moment ago that you were
15 captured. Can you just briefly describe the circumstances in which you
16 were captured?
17 A. When we saw them rounding up the civilians in neighbouring
18 villages and taking them to the above-mentioned place, I and a few other
19 guys tried to evacuate our civilians towards Bilice, which is a Catholic,
20 a Croat locality, behind the forest, to prevent their being taken away
21 too. And I personally tried to be as active as I could about getting
22 those civilians together and sending them to Bilice. And at that moment,
23 I was arrested. I approached a group of some 20 individuals, and some of
24 them were elderly men, and young men, and women. I did not want to
25 frighten them by appearing with a pistol that I normally carried, and a
1 grenade which I had, so that I left them by a bush not far from the place
2 where those people were sitting. And at that moment, I told them that
3 they should not be there and that they should start moving slowly towards
4 Bilice. And I was still talking, because those people told me that nobody
5 would harm them there, that they were free there, and I was trying to tell
6 them something else, trying to convince them. And then I heard some
7 movement behind my back, and then I tried to get away. I tried to jump
8 across a fence, across some wire. And as I did that, I literally ran,
9 bumped into the barrel of an M-53, which is a machine-gun. And at that
10 moment, I heard the order to surrender, and at that moment I didn't know
11 what to do. So that -- Your Honours, I'd rather not talk about those
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I fully understand.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: The microphone is on. The microphone is on. Maybe
16 I need to come nearer, but the microphone is on.
17 I fully understand. Ms. Sutherland, we can, I suppose, take the
18 break now.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, and then I will be moving
20 straight to the police station.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And I would suggest to you if Mr. Cunningham has got
22 nothing against, the next few pages in his statement go into great detail
23 how he was tortured, beaten, and beaten again and beaten again and
24 tortured and beaten again and again and again. We could spare the
25 gentleman all this, if you would agree that this part of the statement,
1 only, will be admitted in evidence.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I want to lead this evidence out of
3 the witness. It goes directly to implicate a member of the Crisis Staff,
4 and it's important that this evidence is heard.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. No, no. It's okay. But you are going
6 to have problems, obviously. So anyway, I'll give you an opportunity to
7 think about this. We'll reconvene in 25 minutes' time, and we see how we
8 go about it. But, on the other hand, sir, you are going to have a break
9 now and have a coffee and relax a little bit. I know it's not easy to
10 relive these events that you are telling us about, but also we need to
12 So let's have a break.
13 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Brdjanin is here.
16 Ms. Sutherland, please proceed.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Could the witness be shown --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And before you proceed, two things: I should like
20 you to, to your utmost, both of you, to finish this witness today. The
21 reason is that this witness was scheduled to last one day in any case,
22 number one. Secondly, the Defence requires roughly about 30 minutes for
23 cross-examination, so you regulate your in-chief accordingly.
24 Then we have another witness laid out, I assume, for tomorrow. We
25 don't need to mention names. He was also scheduled to testify for one day
1 here, which leaves us a big question mark that I would like to know about
2 as far as Friday is concerned.
3 Do you have anyone else already prepared in line for Friday?
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, we were trying to bring a witness
5 forward for Friday, but that looks like it's not possible now.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's not, please ask Ms. Korner or liaise with
7 Ms. Korner, and perhaps you can bring forward Mr. Brown.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: I don't know whether he's in the office at the
9 moment, Your Honour, this week. But the other thing that might be of
10 assistance is to read the diary of Witness 7.207.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: You mean read it here in open Court?
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, no, no, Your Honour, but to use that time.
13 Because the witness will be testifying on Monday, and it is a rather
14 lengthy document, and I don't know whether Your Honours have had the
15 opportunity to go through that.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Not all of it. Not all of it. I speak for myself.
17 I have started, but it can be done over the weekend as well. And the idea
18 when we had the meeting in my office last week was possibly for that
19 witness -- Ms. Korner herself suggested that she could well file, tender
20 as an exhibit the diary and not ask any questions at all, and leave the
21 witness in the hands of Mr. Ackerman for cross-examination. The point is
22 this: What is important for me is not who comes on Friday. What is
23 important for me is that we do not waste a day.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. We understand that, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise, you're free to regulate your own
1 procedure accordingly, and according to your needs. But please don't let
2 us -- don't put us in a position where we have to waste one day or one
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. We've -- the witnesses this week have gone
5 much quicker than we had --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's better, that's a good sign.
7 The witness is in your hands, Ms. Sutherland. I leave it up to
8 you how to go through the rest of the events in which he was so directly
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Could the witness be shown a number of photographs. The first
12 one, Exhibit P2320.8, which has the ERN number 0203-3384.
13 Q. Sir, what is shown in that photograph?
14 A. You can see a mosque that has been destroyed in the village of
15 Vecici, and some houses. As far as I can remember, during the war, these
16 houses didn't have any roofs, so this photograph doesn't come from that
17 period of time.
18 Q. Yes, you're correct. These photographs, I think, Your Honours,
19 were taken last year -- in 2000.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness could be shown the next
21 photograph, which is Exhibit P2320.9, ERN 0203-3385.
22 Q. What is shown in that photograph?
23 A. You can see a mosque in this photograph. Its minaret has been
24 destroyed. I think it's also in Vecici. In Vecici, Your Honours, there
25 were two mosques.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown the next photograph,
2 P2320. --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Sutherland. The word "two mosques".
4 Were they both destroyed or was this one only that was destroyed?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were both destroyed.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Could the witness be shown the next exhibit, P2320.15, ERN number
9 Q. Sir, what's shown in that photograph?
10 A. This is from Cirkin Brdo, across the road from Bosanka. It's a
11 view of the village of Hanifici. You can also see that some of the houses
12 here had been restored or renovated, that these houses didn't have any
13 roofs when I left that area. So this photograph must also be fairly
15 Q. Yes.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown the next Exhibit,
17 P2320.14, with the ERN number 0203-3398.
18 Q. Sir --
19 A. This is also a mosque in the village of Cirkici and Hanifici.
20 This was a joint mosque, a common mosque. This photograph was taken from
21 the rear, at the rear of the mosque. It wasn't the front of the mosque,
22 facing the street.
23 Q. And lastly, if the witness could be shown P2320.13, ERN number
25 A. That's the same mosque, but from the other side.
1 Q. Is the minaret visible in that photograph?
2 A. You can see the minaret on the left side of the building. It's on
3 the ground. It has been toppled over. Part of the minaret remained on
4 the roof.
5 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that photograph.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown the photograph which
7 is P2320.1, ERN number 0203-3371.
8 Q. Sir, what's shown in that photograph?
9 A. You can see the remains of the Catholic church, the Croatian
10 church, in Kotor Varos. You can quite clearly see this part with the
11 cross, which is on the left side of the building.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P2320.20, ERN
14 number 0203-3445.
15 Q. Sir, do you know what's shown in that photograph?
16 A. You can see the new police station in Kotor Varos.
17 Q. We are going to talk about your detention very, very shortly. Can
18 you point on that photograph --
19 A. I was brought in from the direction of the street. I was taken up
20 to this point, to the steps. And on this side of the steps, there were
21 sand bunkers. I was stopped here. There was a group of a number of
22 soldiers wearing uniforms which were slightly different from those of
23 others. They had white belts with the letters "CSB," Security Services
24 Centre. I was stopped here and I was ordered by one of them who had
25 brought me there in a car to greet the men. I said good day. I thought
1 that that was our traditional greeting. But I was told that that was not
2 the way to greet them, that I was supposed to say "God help you, heroes."
3 And they started beating me then, so I'm not sure whether I really greeted
4 them in this way or not. I was then ordered to go a few steps back, but
5 the people who were there lined up. They formed a sort of corridor that I
6 had to pass through.
7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.
9 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I don't know if he's done with his question, but
10 my objection was going to be that it was totally non-responsive to
11 pointing on the photograph.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I would have asked the witness to
13 describe what happened when he was taken to the police station.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it can remain as it is, because the question
15 was: "We are going to talk about your detention very, very shortly. Can
16 you point on that photograph," and the question stopped there, and it was
17 the witness who picked up the rest. So I think it is -- I feel it is all
18 in order and we can proceed.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: We would have come to that in any case.
21 Yes, Ms. Korner -- Ms. Sutherland. You haven't become an
22 obsession as yet.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Sir, after you were made to -- what happened as you went through
25 this cordon of policemen? You said that they started beating you.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What happened when you got through the cordon of people? Where
3 were you taken?
4 A. They took me to a room. When you go up these steps, there's a
5 small corridor and there's a sort of reception area there. I was detained
6 there briefly. They then took me to another room, and then someone who
7 introduced himself as Inspector Zdravko appeared. He said that he was to
8 question me.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Usher, I've finished with that photograph.
11 Q. The person who took you to the office, do you know the name -- his
13 A. Yes, I do. He introduced himself as Dule Vujicic. I don't know
14 whether that's his real name or not.
15 Q. Sir, when you entered this room and a man introduced himself as
16 Inspector Zdravko, did he start to question you?
17 A. He asked me who I was, where I was from. He asked me about my
18 family, whether I was married, et cetera. He asked me why I had been
19 arrested and what kind of weapons I had. And then there were questions
20 that I had never thought about before. He also asked me how many Serbian
21 civilians I had killed, how many Serbian women I had raped, how many
22 Serbian children I had killed, how many Serbian women I had raped. Your
23 Honours, I would never have dreamed of such things.
24 Q. Was Inspector Zdravko --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Zdravko.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND:
2 Q. -- asking you these questions or was somebody else?
3 A. Zdravko asked me these questions, but while he was asking me these
4 questions, there was a policeman or two policemen who were constantly
6 Q. Did anyone else enter the room?
7 A. After a while, two persons entered. One has already been
8 mentioned, Vujicic. And the other person introduced himself as Slobodan
9 Dubocanin. They were both in camouflage uniforms. Slobodan Dubocanin's
10 uniform was slightly different. The colour was slightly different and its
11 shape was slightly different.
12 Q. What colour was his uniform?
13 A. It was a little greener. The other policeman was in a blue
14 camouflage uniform, whereas this one had a greenish uniform.
15 Q. First I want to ask you about these three men. Did you know a
16 person called Dule Vujicic before you saw him that day?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you know Inspector Zdravko?
19 A. No, I didn't.
20 Q. Can you describe him for me?
21 A. At the time he was about 35 years old, of medium height. He was
22 quite well built, quite strong. He was in uniform. He had a shirt, and
23 his sleeves had been rolled up. He had a camouflage uniform, but the
24 sleeves had been rolled up.
25 Q. Slobodan Dubocanin, did you know him before?
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. Can you describe him for me?
3 A. Slobodan Dubocanin was taller than Zdravko and he was quite -- he
4 had an athlete's build. He looked like a good sportsman, or at least that
5 was the impression I had at the moment. At that time, I think he was
6 about 30 years old.
7 Q. What colour hair?
8 A. I think it was fair. I think he was fair, as far as I can
10 Q. When he entered the room, what happened?
11 A. He asked me very briefly where I was from, who I was, where I had
12 been arrested, and then he started interrogating me, because apparently I
13 hadn't provided Zdravko with the right information. So I was asked a
14 series of questions again. Your Honours, I tried to answer those
15 questions as best I could at the time, but whatever the answer I provided,
16 they weren't satisfied and then they started beating me.
17 Q. How did they beat you?
18 A. They punched me, they kicked me. Someone said that I shouldn't be
19 hit over the head. I don't know who. And then I had the impression that
20 someone was a sportsman, because I was dealt fierce blows in the back, in
21 the chest, and so on. I was in great pain.
22 Q. Were any of the three men armed?
23 A. Yes. I noticed that two of them were armed.
24 Q. Which two?
25 A. Slobodan Dubocanin and Dule Vujicic. Zdravko was sitting on the
1 other side, and I didn't notice whether he had a weapon.
2 Q. After Slobodan Dubocanin had questioned you and then they started
3 to punch you and kick you, did they do anything else to you?
4 A. Yes. At one point, Slobodan Dubocanin took his pistol out. He
5 showed it to me. Then he rolled the Chamber and said: "Let's see how
6 lucky you are." He then pointed a gun at my temple, and I expected him to
7 pull the trigger at any time. I didn't know whether it was a game or
8 whether it was part of the tactics they used in the course of the
9 interrogation. I took it seriously, and at that time life came to a halt
10 for me. Time simply stopped. All sorts of images from my earlier life
11 passed through my mind, and everything was very confused, and I couldn't
12 understand anything. I didn't understand what was happening to me.
13 Then I heard the sound of a click, and it was as if I had come to
14 my senses at that time. But it didn't end with that. Slobodan Dubocanin
15 took out a knife and put it to my right eye. He then pulled my head back
16 and I felt such pain that I fainted. I felt my eye had left my body and
17 that it was no longer part of me. The pain was difficult to endure, and I
18 fainted. I was completely unaware of what was happening at that time.
19 I still feel the consequences of this act. I still have problems
20 with seeing with my right eye, because ... I have double image as a result
21 of all the blows that I had been dealt, I almost went blind in my right
22 eye. It was almost impossible for me to see anything with my right eye. I
23 could only see a little. And if I wanted to see something, I had to cover
24 that eye with my hand in order to be able to discern anything. I felt
25 pain all over my body. I wasn't able to move my hands or legs freely. I
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts. Pages 17821 to 17828.
1 felt almost paralysed.
2 Q. Can we continue or would you like a break?
3 A. Yes. We'll continue.
4 Q. Sir, I just want to go back to the incident with the gun for one
5 moment. Did Slobodan Dubocanin also place the barrel of the pistol in
6 your mouth?
7 A. Yes, he did. I really didn't know whether it was a game or
8 whether it was the way they were trying to get me to tell them something
9 that I didn't know. I don't know whether someone was just amusing himself
10 or whether this represented a real threat to my life. But for me, it was
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, unless I'm wrong, I don't think the
13 witness has told us whether the pistol that Dubocanin was using was loaded
14 or not.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think he has said that. But in his
17 statement, details which perhaps you can go straight to.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
19 Q. Sir, when Dubocanin pulled out the pistol, did he show you an
20 empty chamber?
21 A. Yes. He first showed me that the chamber was full, and then he
22 emptied the chamber, and then he put a bullet back in the chamber. I
23 couldn't see where he put the bullet in the chamber. At the time it
24 wasn't possible for me to see that. I wasn't in a position to see all
25 those details. But I'm persuaded that the bullet was in the chamber.
1 Q. Did you see him roll the chamber around at all?
2 A. Yes. I saw that, and I heard him doing that.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: This pistol, I take it, was a revolver, then.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND:
5 Q. Sir, you --
6 A. Yes. I think it was a magnum. I don't know what the calibre was.
7 I think it had a large calibre, perhaps a 9-millimetre-calibre pistol.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND:
10 Q. Sir, you said that when you were -- when Dubocanin cut you with
11 the knife above your right eye, you said you fainted. When you regained
12 consciousness, where were you taken?
13 A. They took me down the stairs. I think it was a room, an isolation
14 cell of some sort. I don't know where it was, but first they took me to a
15 corridor. I was left standing in the corridor, facing the wall, with my
16 legs spread out. I had to lean against the wall with three fingers. All
17 the people who passed by would beat me in that position.
18 Q. Who were these people that beat you?
19 A. They always came in groups of three or four men, never alone. I
20 wasn't able to turn around to see their faces, so I can't describe them.
21 Q. Were you able to see how they were dressed?
22 A. Yes. They were in camouflage uniforms.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, he mentions three fingers on each
24 hand. Did that have any significance to him? Did that mean anything,
25 using three fingers only and not four or five or two?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, because it's a
2 well-known fact that Serbs greet each other with three fingers, so I had
3 to lean against the wall with three fingers and remain in that position.
4 So I was being humiliated as a Muslim, as a Bosniak, because I had to use
5 or accept this Serbian form of greeting.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND:
7 Q. Before these people came past in groups of three or four, did you
8 hear anything over the loudspeaker?
9 A. Yes, I did. Since from the place where I stood less five metres
10 away from that place there was the policeman on duty, and he used the
11 radio to say that he had a Mujahedin with him and if they wanted to see
12 him, that they should come. After -- a few minutes later, a group, a
13 small group came and so it went on and on and on, so that I lost count. I
14 really didn't know how many people were meeting me and where. And they
15 were hitting me. I thought that those were the orders, but my body was
16 doubling under the blows, and I was falling down on the floor, and I would
17 be straightened up, how many times, Your Honours, I really don't know.
18 Q. You said a moment ago that you were then taken to an isolation
19 cell of some sort in the basement.
20 A. Yes. That room that they took me to, I went down some stairs and
21 I assume that it was a solitary confinement cell, because it was in the
23 Q. Did you stay in that room overnight?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Were you interrogated the following day?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who by?
3 A. The same inspector, Zdravko.
4 Q. How long did the interrogation last that day?
5 A. Throughout the working hours, and I was taken to the corridor and
6 brought back a number of times, so I cannot give you a precise answer. I
7 don't know. But I was brought into that room several times that day.
8 Q. When the interrogation finished, where were you taken then?
9 A. And then they transferred me to the elementary school, which was
10 near the police station, and we were put -- I was put in a gym.
11 Q. Were there any other detainees there when you arrived?
12 A. Yes. Yes. On the other side, there were some 20 men.
13 Q. What was the ethnicity of these men?
14 A. They were Muslims, Bosniaks, and Croats.
15 Q. Did you know who was in charge of the people being detained at the
17 A. As a rule, there was a man whom I used to know as a waiter at
18 Plasa. That's a pub which is called Plasa. And we used to call him Pop.
19 So Popovic.
20 Q. How many guards were at the school?
21 A. There would always be one at the entrance to the school; others I
22 could not see. I mean, at the entrance to the gymnasium.
23 Q. How were they dressed?
24 A. Yes. They wore police clothes.
25 Q. Were they armed?
1 A. I couldn't see that. But on one occasion, I saw one holding a
2 weapon. But when they were coming into the gymnasium, I couldn't see if
3 they had any weapons.
4 Q. Did you recognise any of these guards?
5 A. Apart from the already mentioned waiter, I didn't know anyone
7 Q. Later that evening, were your names read out?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What happened during that first night that you were in the school?
10 A. You mean the roll-call?
11 Q. What happened after the roll-call? Were you then taken again --
12 were you taken from the school?
13 A. After the roll-call, I was taken to a part of the building which
14 was used as lockers, as dressing rooms for the children, for the pupils,
15 before and after going to the gym, where showers were and the rest.
16 Q. At some point that night, were you taken from the school, and the
17 following morning you woke up in the police station?
18 A. I woke up in a room, and I thought it was in the police station.
19 Q. And is it right that you had fainted before you knew that you were
20 in the police station?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: He hasn't really stated or confirmed that it was the
22 police station that he found himself in in the morning. He says that he
23 thought it was. So I will ask him the same question without making it or
24 putting words in his mouth which he hasn't stated as yet.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND:
1 Q. Sir, that night, did something happen to you and you fainted?
2 A. Yes. I was taken to the bathroom, and there they started striking
3 me, and I passed out. And I really don't know where my body was taken
4 from there, because during this torture, I passed out frequently. And
5 whenever I woke up, it was a new day to me; that is, I lost all idea of
7 Q. When you woke up in the morning, where were you?
8 A. I was in a room which was very small. I think it was in the
9 cellar, somewhere below the ground level.
10 Q. Did you at some point -- and was that in the police station?
11 A. I'd say yes, because there was nowhere else they could take me.
12 Q. Do you know a person called Mileka Dotic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you recognise him?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. How many other men were there?
17 A. There was a group of about 15 to 20 individuals. There was some
18 noise, but I didn't know what it was about. And Mileka Dotic was one of
19 those in the group whom I recognised.
20 Q. How were the other members -- how was he and the other members
22 A. They were all in camouflage police clothes.
23 Q. Were you at some point taken inside the police station building?
24 A. Yes. At that moment, I didn't realise what was going on, but at
25 that moment, a somewhat younger policeman came and took me back to the
1 room from which they had taken me out. I did not know at that time why I
2 had been taken back, but whatever, I was taken back to that room.
3 Q. Sorry. Just before you were -- you go on to discuss that, were
4 you beaten in this room with these 15 to 20 individuals?
5 A. I'm sorry. Those 15 to 20 men were in front of the police
6 station, not in the room.
7 Q. I'm sorry. I misunderstood?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Go back. I think you need to go a little bit direct
9 here. Go back to Mr. Mileka Dotic, the Mileka Dotic who you said you
10 recognised amongst this group, do anything to you?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That gentleman, Mileka Dotic, tried
12 to walk through this group and reach me, and I realised that he wanted
13 something. But at that moment, I heard some words, kill, slaughter, or
14 something, but I didn't really know what it was all about. And in that
15 situation, I just stood. I didn't know what it was all about.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: But were you beaten by anyone on that occasion when
17 Mileka Dotic said something that you're not quite sure about?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it all happened so
19 quickly, so that I don't know whether anyone struck me at that moment.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND:
22 Q. And from there you said you were then taken to an office inside
23 the police station; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you introduced to anybody?
1 A. I was taken to a man who said he was Nenad Balaban. I had never
2 seen that man before.
3 Q. Were you questioned by Nenad Balaban?
4 A. Yes, I was.
5 Q. What sort of questions did he ask you?
6 A. I went through the same procedure, who I am, what I am, same kind
7 of questions which I already mentioned, except that I had to sign the
8 official record of what I -- and that is what I did.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, if I'm reading the statement, the
10 witness statement well, the Balaban incident, when Balaban, in other
11 words, comes into the picture, happened quite a few days after.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. I was going to clear that up.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. So I suggest you bring back the witness to
14 where you want him, and that was immediately after he had seen Mileka
15 Dotic --
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
17 Q. Sir, after you had seen Mileka Dotic and you were taken to an
18 office inside the building, were you introduced to someone called Zaric,
19 nicknamed Djiba?
20 A. The man who took me away from that group where Mileka Dotic was
21 took me away from -- that is, somebody must have pushed them away,
22 somebody, because I couldn't really move. And he just pushed those people
23 away from me and took me back into the building. I didn't know Goran
24 Zaric at the time. It was only later that I came across him again and
25 learned that he was Goran Zaric. At that time, all that I heard was his
1 nickname, Djiba.
2 Q. So at that time, you were taken inside the police station?
3 A. Yes, back into the police station.
4 Q. Did Slobodan Dubocanin and others enter the office that day?
5 A. The first instant, I didn't see Slobodan Dubocanin, but later on I
6 did, and Slobodan Dubocanin started asking me about things which I had no
7 idea about. And finally, he ordered me to lie down, and after that he
8 tried to dance a folk reel on my body. And but it hurt so much that I
9 passed out. And how long it lasted, I really don't know.
10 Q. Was Dubocanin, was he the only one that mistreated you on that
11 occasion, or the other men as well?
12 A. There were others, too.
13 Q. How many others?
14 A. Well, not -- at least two or three men, because Slobodan Dubocanin
15 never came alone.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Go directly -- you can mention the name to him and
17 ask him whether this person beat him up as well. I'm referring to a
18 certain Bojic, whose first name is not known.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND:
20 Q. Sir, when you regained consciousness, were you introduced to a man
21 called Bojic?
22 A. Yes, I was.
23 Q. Can you describe him?
24 A. Bojic wore the camouflage police uniform, athletic build, medium
25 height. He was rather dark-skinned. His complexion was dark and his hair
1 was black. Something that I didn't notice before that: He tried to beat
2 me alone, and I tried to protect myself, and then he called to some people
3 to come and help him, so that they just held me tight and he beat me, and
4 I then passed out again.
5 Q. When you're referring to medium height, approximately how tall is
6 that? Because I know that you are very tall. So what do you call "medium
8 A. Well, to me, it is between 175 and 180 centimetres.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: By standard in that area in the world, I would be a
10 midget Ms. Sutherland.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND:
12 Q. Sir, were you again interrogated by Inspector Zdravko?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When did this occur?
15 A. I don't know the exact time, because I don't know when I was let
16 go, those before him [as interpreted]. So that when I came to, I was
17 brought to this room once again for further interrogation, but I cannot
18 give you the exact time.
19 Q. And again, were the questions the same or different?
20 A. The questions were the same, more or less.
21 Q. Were you given anything in newspaper?
22 A. At some point while Zdravko was interrogating me, two men came in.
23 Whether he invited them to come or not, I don't know. But two men in
24 camouflage uniforms came, and one of the two was saying how they had
25 killed my brother. And I knew that he had been captured, but I didn't
1 know where he was. And I thought that perhaps he was in a different
2 prison, because I couldn't really know how many facilities there were
3 where people were detained. And he showed me some fingers which had been
4 cut off recently. You could see blood on them. And he said: These are
5 your brother's fingers. We killed him just a few moments ago. And I
6 looked at those fingers. I just cast a look at them. But at that moment,
7 of course, I couldn't know whether they were Ahmet's fingers. I thought
8 they were not, and I was hoping that they were not his fingers.
9 Q. After this incident, did Slobodan Dubocanin and Vujicic enter the
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What occurred after they entered the room?
13 A. Whenever Slobodan Dubocanin entered, a new round of torture for
15 Q. What occurred on this occasion? What did he do to you?
16 A. Your Honours, I can't remember. It escapes me now.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem. We move to the next incident,
18 Ms. Sutherland. You don't have to worry if, Mr. Cirkic, if you don't
19 remember anything in particular. You're not standing trial here; you're
20 just giving evidence. So you don't have to worry. No one will blame you
21 if you have forgotten some of these facts.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND:
23 Q. Sir, at some point I think you fainted again. And when you woke
24 up, what wounds did you notice?
25 A. I noticed that my lip was cut, and it was bleeding profusely. And
1 I tried to somehow put this piece back, but that cut piece just hung
2 there. It was a long cut, a cut long, two or three centimetres, and you
3 can still see.
4 Q. After this, were you returned to the school?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And we talked earlier this morning about the 17 to 20 men getting
7 killed in Dabovci. Is that where you were told about that, in this
9 A. Yes. It was in that very school. I do not know the exact date,
10 but I think it was sometime between the 17th or maybe 18th of August, and
11 I received this information from a man whom I knew before, that is, his
12 name is Alija Cejvan. At some point, Alija came to me and tried to talk
13 with me, and I told him: Don't talk with me, because you could get beaten
14 and it won't be good for you. But he didn't obey me, and went on talking.
15 And so he gave me several names of persons who had been killed, but I do
16 not remember those names.
17 Q. Were you mistreated while you were detained at the school?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you describe briefly for the Court what happened?
20 A. Your Honours, I have the impression that I was being beaten all
21 the time. I don't know how long were the breaks between the beatings. My
22 body hurt all over. I felt as somebody who was completely paralysed. I
23 couldn't move. I could barely move my arms. And I've already told you as
24 regards my sight. My body was on the brink at that time. I could not
25 stand the pain any longer. At those moments I thought that death was the
1 only way out for me. I simply couldn't see any other way out.
2 Q. Do you recall an incident which occurred in the locker room?
3 A. Yes. Once I was taken to the locker room for interrogation, they
4 left me there unconscious. After a period of time, I could hear screams.
5 I could hear voices. And I tried to focus, to find out where I was and
6 what was going on. And at that moment, I noticed several policemen. I
7 don't know the exact number - and two Croats who were being interrogated
8 about something. I recognised one of those Croats, (Redacted)
11 was being accused of having built an electric chair to torture and kill
12 the Serbs. And he kept denying it and saying that he knew nothing about
13 such things. The other one, they were trying to extort some money or some
14 gold from the other one, saying that he had buried it somewhere. And he
15 was saying that he didn't have any, that he was of medium standard. But
16 those who interrogated them were not very satisfied with the answers, and
17 after a period of beating they forced them to engage in anal sex. I tried
18 to see what was happening. When I saw what was going on, I tried somehow
19 to pull back and pretend that I was still unconscious, to avoid being
20 beaten again. And I saw them pulling down their trousers. But as I said,
21 I tried to pull back a little.
22 And throughout the time, I pretended I was unconscious, in order
23 to avoid any risk to myself.
24 Q. At some point, were you taken again back to the police station to
25 Inspector Zdravko's office?
1 A. I was taken back to Inspector Zdravko's office, but I think that
2 Inspector Zdravko was not there on that occasion.
3 Q. Did you hear people being interrogated and beaten at the police
5 A. Yes, I did. I heard once people who were to testify that they
6 knew me. Those people were beaten and asked if they knew me, and people
7 said they didn't. But after a while, they were forced to say that they
8 did know me. Whether and how much those people really knew me, that is
9 something I don't really know.
10 Q. Going back to the school, how often, if at all, did special unit
11 members come to the school?
12 A. Yes, they came. And as far as I can remember, I'd say they came
13 every day.
14 Q. And what made them different from the regular policemen?
15 A. They wore some hats, like camouflage hats, and had uniforms which
16 were green. They didn't look like those blue uniforms that regular
17 policemen wore.
18 Q. Do you know who was in charge of these special units?
19 A. Slobodan Dubocanin introduced himself as the special troops
20 captain. I don't know whether he was really the commander.
21 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that you were interrogated by Nenad
22 Balaban and that he gave you a document. What was that document about?
23 A. Balaban appeared with some documents that were supposed to be my
24 statement that I was supposed to sign and to admit that what was contained
25 in the statement was true and that I stood by it.
1 Q. Did you read the document and sign the document?
2 A. Your Honours, I wasn't in a position to read it, nor was I in a
3 position to sign it. I really tried to sign it, to put an end to
4 everything. I was no longer able to endure this. But I was prepared to
5 sign the statement, regardless of its contents. I took the pen that I was
6 provided with in order to sign the statement, but I dropped the pen. At
7 that point, another man sitting on the side, sitting by Balaban, he stood
8 up. He was a little older and was greying. But he was also wearing a
9 police camouflage uniform. Balaban had a look at me and then asked me
10 what was that on your lips? I said I fell down the stairs and cut myself.
11 And then Balaban said that I was lying. I said that that was the truth.
12 And then Balaban ordered me to take my shirt off. That was the first time
13 that I had a look at my body without my shirt on. I couldn't even see
14 white skin anywhere. Everything was dark blue and yellow. Balaban
15 ordered me to turn around, to turn my back to him, which is what I did.
16 Then the two of them had a look, and he said: Very well. Get dressed.
17 And he stopped at that point. He didn't insist on me talking about my cut
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may I make an application to have
20 the names of the persons involved in the incident back at the school
21 redacted for reasons of privacy, their privacy? So the incident still
22 stays in the transcript, but the names of the individuals is redacted.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The Prosecution's request is being granted,
24 registrar, and you will liaise with Ms. Sutherland to make sure that we
25 redact the right names and not others.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry, Your Honour. It's on page 54, lines --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: If you could redact this.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- Lines 3 to 5.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: That should help you enough, Madam Registrar. Have
5 you located them? Sorry.
6 Yes, you can proceed, Ms. Sutherland.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. Sir, what happened after you got dressed?
9 A. After I got dressed, I don't know whether I tried to sign the
10 record again, but Balaban ordered the other person to take me back to the
12 Q. You've mentioned one incident where detainees were mistreated.
13 Were there any other incidents that you saw where detainees were
14 mistreated back at the school?
15 A. As there was a sports hall there, special troops came on several
16 occasions. They wanted to play football with our people. Each time there
17 were incidents, but I really can't remember certain things now.
18 Q. What were the conditions in the school? What were your sleeping
19 arrangements? What was the food like? Were you able to wash daily?
20 A. I personally slept on the parquet. I was provided with a rubber
21 ball as a pillow, which I wasn't able to use. I didn't have anything to
22 lie on. I was right by the entrance to the hall. Others were at the
23 opposite end, by the wall. I didn't notice -- I noticed that they had
24 something that they could lie on, blankets or something like that.
25 As far as food is concerned, we weren't provided with food
1 regularly, and we weren't provided with a sufficient amount of food. I
2 noticed that on several occasions, found that already had gone bad, was
3 provided [as interpreted]. If you ate such food, you would have to
4 suddenly rush to the toilet, because you could quite simply not keep this
5 food down.
6 As far as bathing is concerned, I never had a bath in the school,
7 so I felt my own body odour. I could smell my own body odour. I really
8 do not know whether other people had the opportunity to have a bath or
10 Q. How long were you detained in the school?
11 A. About a month, but I'm not sure.
12 Q. I meant to ask you this question earlier: What was the ethnicity
13 of the man that you said was in charge of the school, Popovic?
14 A. A Serb.
15 Q. And you said that you weren't able to recognise any of the guards.
16 But do you know their ethnicity?
17 A. I couldn't recognise that, but they were Serbs. There were only
18 Serbs in the Serbian police force, because the Croats and the Muslims had
19 been dismissed earlier on.
20 Q. And Dule Vujicic, what was his ethnicity?
21 A. A Serb.
22 Q. Do you know the ethnicity of Inspector Zdravko?
23 A. I don't know his ethnicity, but I assume that he was a Serb.
24 Q. Slobodan Dubocanin, what was his ethnicity?
25 A. Slobodan Dubocanin boasted that he was a Serb, a real Serb, so I'm
1 sure that he was a Serb.
2 Q. After your detention in the school for a month, where were you
3 then taken?
4 A. We were then taken to the old prison. It's a building behind the
5 court building, in the municipality building. The local population called
6 it the old prison.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: In Kotor Varos?
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. That was in the town of Kotor Varos?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P2320.19, ERN
12 number 0203-3442.
13 Q. Sir, what's shown in that photograph?
14 A. You can see the building of the municipality, the municipal
15 building here, and the prison building is on the other side. It's behind
16 this part of the building.
17 Q. And you were just pointing then with the pointer to the right-hand
18 corner of the municipal building?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that street there led up to the building where the old prison
21 was; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. I've finished with that photograph.
24 Q. What happened when you entered the prison?
25 A. Our names were entered in a register. Our names were recorded. I
1 don't know whether the date was recorded. And we were placed in two
2 rooms. Some of us went to a room called number 3, whereas others were
3 taken to a room marked as room number 1.
4 Q. Approximately how many other detainees were at the old prison?
5 A. You mean in both rooms?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. At the time there were between 70 and 75 people.
8 Q. What was their ethnicity?
9 A. Muslims, Bosniaks, and Croats.
10 Q. I'm sorry. Just one question going back to the school. Were you
11 ever provided any medical attention, you or any of the other detainees,
12 for the injuries which you suffered, you sustained?
13 A. I personally wasn't provided with any medical assistance. I don't
14 know about others. The only medical assistance I was provided with in the
15 school was assistance provided by a detainee. He had graduated from
16 medical faculty, or was supposed to graduate. He offered to sew up my
17 cut, but the guards refused to allow him to do so. And then I was given
18 some tablets, some pills, some painkillers. And then there was someone
19 called Ahmet Zulic, who provided with me with a handkerchief of some kind
20 with which to cover my cut. But at that time, no, I wasn't provided with
21 any medical treatment in the prison.
22 Q. And were you allowed visits from outside?
23 A. I personally did not receive any visits, but some people did, some
24 local inhabitants from Kotor Varos. Once a week they would receive a
25 little food and some clothes. These visits were allowed when Goran Zaric
1 was the warden of the prison. When he left, these visits came to an end.
2 Q. I'm sorry. It's my fault for confusing you. Were you allowed
3 visits when you were at the school?
4 A. I wasn't, but as far as I can remember, some people went out with
5 the guards for some parcels, but I didn't see the people who came to
7 Q. Now, going back to the old prison building behind the Municipal
8 Assembly building, do you know who was in charge there?
9 A. Yes, I do. Goran Zaric, Djiba, was in charge of that prison.
10 Q. Do you know the names of any of the guards?
11 A. I remember one of them who was well-known in Kotor Varos as Ljubo
12 "Zilo". I don't know his surname. Tesic "Bedi" was the third person. I
13 don't know whether that was his real name. The name of a fourth person
14 was Aleksandar. They called him Aco. But I can't remember his surname
15 right now. But I do know that they called him Aco.
16 Q. Do you know a person called Vucanovic?
17 A. Yes. I think his name was Aco Vucanovic. I think Vucanovic was
18 his surname.
19 Q. What did these people do before the war? What was their
21 A. Your Honours, as far as I can remember, only Goran Zaric, Djiba,
22 was a policeman, whereas the others, I don't think that they were
23 policemen. I think they were citizens employed in some companies.
24 Q. What was the ethnicity of Goran Zaric and the guards that you were
25 able to recognise?
1 A. They were Serbs. They were all Serbs.
2 Q. Were the detainees ever taken out for forced labour?
3 A. Yes, except on Sundays.
4 Q. Did anyone escape during this forced labour?
5 A. On one occasion, people were taken away in the morning and they
6 were returned about 12.00, as far as I can remember. Then there was some
7 sort of confusion, and I -- some sort of alert, and I found out that from
8 the neighbouring rooms, not from room number 2 -- I apologise. Not from
9 room number 3 -- or room number 3 some people ran away. They all had the
10 same surname, Sipura, Zoran, Jakica, and Svetko. So for a certain period
11 of time there was no more labour. The guards were replaced immediately.
12 Q. Who were they replaced by? What were their names and their
13 ethnicities, if you know?
14 A. Radenko Krejic. No. Radenko Keverovic, someone who introduced
15 himself as Krejic. I don't remember his first name. Nedjo Djukic. And
16 someone whose surname was Zutic. I don't know his first name.
17 Q. What were their ethnicities?
18 A. They were Serbs.
19 Q. Do you know what any of these men did before the war?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you at any time do forced labour?
22 A. On one occasion I was taken to clean an area in front of the fire
23 brigade centre, which at that time had been transformed into a barracks.
24 When I was taken out with a group of people to do this work, the weather
25 was bad. It was just before a storm. My first task was to gather the
1 leaves. I took a broom. I tried to sweep the leaves up. But whenever I
2 gathered some of these leaves, the wind would start blowing and scatter
3 them. The person in charge of me started laughing, approached the
4 vehicle, put some music on, and asked me whether I knew how to sing
5 Serbian songs, and then started playing Serbian songs for me. I don't
6 know how I managed to complete that task.
7 The second task I had was to clean a mirror that had been stained.
8 It was quite a big mirror. It was on the wall. I had been ordered to
9 clean it so that it was shiny. Your Honours, I couldn't see my own image,
10 my own reflection in that mirror, I was in such a bad state. But I took
11 some sort of solutions. I tried to clean it. The person in charge of me
12 moved a bit. A young man came to help me. He was a distant relative of
13 me, Turan Dzevad. He quickly cleaned that part. Within -- taken behind
14 that building to a sort of shack. There was some materials there. We were
15 supposed to build some sort of area where we could roast pigs. My task
16 was to take an axe and chop wood.
17 I tried to chop the wood, but I couldn't hit the wood. I would
18 raise the axe, but I kept missing, and this made the others laugh. I
19 don't know what would have happened if Goran Zaric, Djiba, hadn't appeared
20 at one moment, and he took me and one of the other men and returned me to
21 the old prison.
22 Q. While you were on this forced labour, did you overhear any
23 soldiers talking about their pay or lack thereof?
24 A. In front of the fire brigade, they centred -- two men in uniforms
25 of the special police appeared. They started speaking to my guard and he
1 then started swearing. They mentioned the name of Djeka, who had promised
2 some sort of pay. Apparently their pays were late and they were saying:
3 "We're good enough for them when it's necessary to fight, but when they
4 have to pay us, there's no money." I heard this conversation by chance.
5 Q. You say they mentioned the name of Djeka. Did you know who they
6 were referring to?
7 A. Your Honours, I apologise. Djekanovic.
8 Q. Did you know anyone by the surname Djekanovic?
9 A. I personally didn't know the person by that name, but I know that
10 Djekanovic had an important position in the police, in the municipality of
11 Kotor Varos, and he was also a member of the parliament in Bosnia and
13 Q. Do you know his first name?
14 A. No, I can't remember that.
15 Q. At some point were you registered by the ICRC while you were at
16 the prison?
17 A. Yes. Some of us were registered, I think about 12 of us, whereas
18 the others who were doing forced labour weren't registered, not at that
20 Q. Did any new prisoners, detainees, arrive?
21 A. I can't remember the exact date, but in the afternoon,
22 preparations were made in the prison. The rooms opposite my room were
23 emptied. And at some point, we heard new people being brought in. I
24 recognised who was in question, because it was possible to hear their
25 voices. While they were being interrogated, we were forced to sing
1 Serbian songs, which we had to practice regularly, because there was
2 someone who was charged with training us. So when we finished singing one
3 song, we would sing another one. And then someone would knock on the door
4 and say: Sing it again. And we would start singing again. So we had to
5 sing incessantly.
6 Q. For approximately how long did this singing last for?
7 A. Well, until about midnight. I can't tell you the exact time.
8 Q. What happened the following morning, if you remember?
9 A. In the evening we had been forbidden to leave the room. In the
10 morning, until we received the order. So spent a little more time in the
11 cells, in the rooms. In the meantime, we heard some sort of noise. First
12 you could hear a tractor arriving in front of the prison building, and
13 then you could hear some people and the sound of some plastic bags. We
14 then heard something happening in the corridor, or in one of the rooms
15 opposite our room. And then something was taken out after that. I didn't
16 know what was happening or what had happened at that point in time. In my
17 opinion, someone had been killed in the prison and taken outside.
18 Q. What happened later that afternoon?
19 A. Maybe about 1500 hours - perhaps I'm wrong, but I think that was
20 the time - three policemen entered, one of whom returned. One of them was
21 Radenko. They approached Turan Dzevad and Amir Zec and told them that
22 they had 15 minutes to get ready and that they were going to be involved
23 in an exchange. After that, two policemen returned and approached someone
24 whose name was Muharem Pasic. They asked him how old he was. He
25 answered. They then said: That is convenient. That suits us. And they
1 took him away too. I think that half an hour or an hour passed, and then
2 Radenko returned.
3 He approached me. He said: "Come on, now. You're leaving." I
4 said: "Should I get ready?" He said: "No. You're ready."
5 He took me outside. In front of the prison, there was a Golf, a
6 vehicle. The driver was at the wheel, and the engine was running. They
7 put me in the back. The car left in the direction of Vrbanjci.
8 Q. Did he tell you what was going to happen to you when he first
9 walked into the room?
10 A. I didn't know I would be exchanged. He said they were going to
11 kill me. I didn't know whether they were really taking me away to be
12 killed or whether I was going to be exchanged. When the car headed in the
13 direction of Vrbanjci, I then thought that there really might be an
14 exchange, but since people had been killed before me, I thought that I
15 wouldn't be exchanged. I wasn't sure what would happen to me.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, is this an appropriate moment?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. We need to stop here.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have approximately another five to
19 ten minutes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: I think it's important --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: That should be enough for you, Mr. Cunningham?
23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I believe so, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's perfect.
25 We will reconvene, hopefully, in 25 minutes' time.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, we are going to be busy. It may
3 well be possible that we might reconvene a little bit later. But let's
4 hope we can reconvene in 25 minutes' time. Thank you
5 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cirkic, I apologise for having kept you waiting
8 beyond what I told you before. The same applies to you, Ms. Sutherland,
9 and to you, Mr. Cunningham, and all the others, but we were busy and we
10 couldn't return earlier than that, although we did our best.
11 So let's proceed. Please try to conclude, leaving Mr. Cunningham
12 a good 30 minutes for his cross.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'll do my best, Your Honour.
14 Q. Before we broke a moment ago, Mr. Cirkic, we were -- you were
15 discussing how you were called out, and that you were put into a Golf
16 motor vehicle.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Where were you taken?
19 A. We reached the main -- or rather, the high street in Kotor Varos,
20 and then the Golf turned in the direction of Vrbanjci.
21 Q. Did you stop -- were you ordered to sing while you were in this
23 A. Yes. One of those present ordered me to sing, and the other one
24 said: Oh, let him be. He's sung enough.
25 Q. I think then you reached Vrbanjci, and you stopped at the cafe bar
1 owned by Dzevad Alagic; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What was the condition of the bar?
4 A. The cafe was in ruins. At the bar, one could see lots of broken
5 bottles. There were broken chairs. And in front of the cafe too. I
6 mean, it was in terrible shape.
7 Q. What was the ethnicity of Dzevad Alagic?
8 A. A Bosniak, Muslim.
9 Q. Inside the bar, did you see Dzevad Turan and Amir Zec?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. And these people had been detained with you in the prison?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. But you didn't see Pasic?
14 A. I didn't, no.
15 Q. After a short while, did someone called Fra Adolf show up, holding
16 a white flag?
17 A. He did, yes.
18 Q. Did he ask Keverovic if he had brought you, which he then
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were you asked by this Fra Adolf your name, and you confirmed --
22 you told him your name?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. And he told you that you would be exchanged for Nedjeljko Djukic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is it correct that his son Nevenkao Djukic had arranged for the
2 exchange to occur?
3 A. From what I gathered, it was his son who had organised the
5 Q. And you had to meet each other halfway between the coffee bar and
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.
8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Excuse me for interrupting, Judge. Can I change
9 headphones? Mine's going in and out with the translation. Can I have
10 just a minute to do that?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Let's proceed.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND:
13 Q. You had to meet each other halfway between the coffee bar and
14 Vrbanjci; is that correct?
15 A. Between the coffee bar and the bridge over the River Mlava. I
16 mean, when you say Vrbanjci, it could be anywhere.
17 Q. Thank you. And there was a group of between 40 and 50 Serb
18 soldiers near you?
19 A. Yes. Some of them were in the coffee bar and others were around
20 the building.
21 Q. Before you started to walk, were you introduced to two people, one
22 Zdravko Pejic, who introduced himself as the chief of police in Kotor
23 Varos, and the other Sasa Petrovic, who introduced himself as the
24 commander of a military unit located in Vrbanjci?
25 A. Before we set off towards the line where we were to be exchanged,
1 I was approached by two uniformed men. And this is Sasa Petrovic, sorry.
2 What I see here, it says here something else.
3 Q. Yes. The transcript has another first name, has another name.
4 And you were told not to say anything about your treatment that
5 you had received during your detention?
6 A. We were given those instructions earlier, that we were to say that
7 we had been treated normally, that nothing untoward had happened, that
8 there was an exchange, which meant a positive step forward, and that we
9 should not talk about what we had been through or seen.
10 Q. And the date that you were exchanged was on or about the 30th of
11 September, 1992?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. From there --
14 A. I don't know the exact date, but I believe it would be the date,
16 Q. From there, is it correct that you arranged to travel to Travnik
17 in a convoy?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you very briefly tell the Judges what happened on the day that
20 you had to board the bus.
21 A. Before we were to board the bus, lists of people to be transferred
22 from the -- from Vrbanjci to Travnik were to be compiled, had to be
23 compiled, and these lists were to be handed over next to the Catholic
24 church in Vrbanjci, and from there, they went to Kotor Varos, and then the
25 next day the buses came and the transport was organised then. I don't
1 know who put me on their list, but I heard that that day I should -- I
2 would be leaving the neighbourhood community of Vrbanjci with a group. I
3 can't give you the exact number. But that there were between six or eight
4 buses full of people leaving Donji Vrbanjci. One group returned because
5 there was no room for them.
6 All the others were searched in a building, in one house men were
7 frisked; and in another, women; and then they were being directed towards
8 buses which had numbers 1 to 3. So I was put on a bus, but before
9 boarding the bus itself, I once again came across Sasa Petrovic and
10 Balaban, and I think that Balaban was accompanied by a man from Vecici
11 called Raif Alagic. And I think they were conducting negotiations at the
12 moment that Vecici should be -- that the population in Vecici should be
13 moved out in some way. But I didn't know more about that at the time.
14 And as we were entering the buses, in front of the bus that I was
15 to board, there was a bench, and on that bench, there were three persons
16 sitting. I think it was a woman in the middle and two men, and one of
17 those individuals, I think I had met him before, and his name was Sinisa,
18 and he used to work at the Cadastre, at the land registry office. I don't
19 know what he did there. And we were supposed to pay the fare there and
20 sign that -- sign over the property that we had.
21 What that receipt said, I couldn't really read it, so I merely
22 signed it, paid the fare, and headed for the bus. And at that moment,
23 Balaban came to me once again and said: It would be good if the two of us
24 could meet at some other time and talk with persons who were in charge of
25 the escort of the bus. So I boarded the bus, but the bus was full. I
1 went to the other bus which was not filled. But those people who couldn't
2 find room on any bus, they were taken back to Vrbanjci.
3 Q. And this form that you had to fill out, was it in Cyrillic or
4 Latin script?
5 A. The form was in Cyrillic, as far as I could see.
6 Q. And as far as you know, did it say that the form that you signed,
7 was it signing over your property voluntarily to the Kotor Varos
9 A. Your Honours, I did not read that statement, but from what I know,
10 everybody who was leaving had to sign such a statement. But I had neither
11 time nor opportunity nor strength enough to read it. I simply signed it.
12 Q. And the people that were there, the man from the land office, did
13 they fill out the details on the form, your details?
14 A. The form that I see had already been filled. All I had to do was
15 put my signature there. All rest was already printed.
16 Q. And how much did you have to pay to go on the bus?
17 A. At some point, I was told it would be 100 marks, but the prices
18 were from 100 marks for adults, 50 marks for children. I gave them a
19 hundred-mark note, and I didn't get any change back, and that is why I
20 think that the price was 100 marks.
21 Q. Where was your wife and children?
22 A. It was in Vecici that I learnt, that day when I came out of the
23 camp, that my children were in Bilice and that they had taken the convoy
24 towards Travnik. That wasn't a reliable information, but that was what
25 people told me.
1 Q. When did you -- when did this convoy of buses that you were on
2 leave Kotor Varos?
3 A. I can't give you the exact time.
4 Q. Month?
5 A. I think, however, that it was around 3.00, perhaps a little later.
6 Q. I'm sorry. What month did you travel?
7 A. I think that the exact date was the 30th of October.
8 Q. These buses then left Kotor Varos --
9 A. But I'm not a hundred per cent sure.
10 Q. And the buses then left Kotor Varos and drove to a place called
11 Smetovi, and you were told that you had to walk from there; is that
13 A. It is.
14 Q. And that's approximately 20 kilometres to Travnik?
15 A. Your Honours, I don't know how many kilometres, but I know I had
16 to walk quite a long time, because everybody else who had got off their
17 bus overtook me, and I was in a pretty bad shape, so that I was one of the
19 Q. When you arrived in Travnik, did you stay in a medical centre for
20 approximately one month?
21 A. I did, yes.
22 Q. Did people come to visit you and tell you things that had happened
23 in the Kotor Varos municipality?
24 A. Yes, although I was in a very bad shape, I tried to move around,
25 so that I communicated with quite a number of people while I was in
2 Q. Akif Pasic, did he visit you?
3 A. Akif Pasic was brought a few days later. He was brought by two
4 men. He was practically -- he collapsed. I mean, he couldn't walk on his
5 own. And he was in this very bad state, very bad condition, for a few
6 days. And after that, he told me about his journey from Vecici to
8 Q. Did he tell you about an incident that occurred in Grabovica on
9 the 3rd of November, 1992?
10 A. Akif Pasic told me, not in so many words, that they left in late
11 afternoon, that they came across an ambush, that they split into small
12 groups, and that with his group, he separated from others, and that they
13 heard gunfire and that one group had been taken in the direction of
15 Q. Do you know what happened to that other group?
16 A. They were never seen again. Your Honours, a group of women were
17 also taken with that group of men. The next day, those women were brought
18 to Travnik, and those women told me and Akif, because Akif went to ask
19 them, because his two brothers had gone missing, and so he went to ask
20 what had happened to those people, and they were told that they had stayed
21 behind in the school in Grabovica.
22 Q. Approximately how many men were in this group?
23 A. The first figure was -- the initial figure was 180 men, and then
24 we heard that in the Skender Vakuf municipality, some were captured,
25 others were captured in the territory of Donji Vakuf municipality, so that
1 the number of persons who went missing in the area of Grabovica was
2 somewhere between 162, 163 persons. I'm not quite sure.
3 Q. Did a person called Drago Bandala from Bilice tell you about a
4 massacre that occurred in the mosque in Hanifici?
5 A. Yes. As I was lying in the hospital in Travnik, Drago Bandala,
6 who had found temporary accommodation in the neighbouring municipality of
7 Vitez and come to see me, told me about what had happened in the mosque in
8 Hanifici and Cirkici.
9 Q. Did a person called Hasan Vilic tell you that he buried the bodies
10 of six women and one man from a massacre that occurred in Cirkici?
11 A. Yes, he did. Yes, Hasan Vilic is from my village. There were
12 three -- two or three households where that last name Cirkic and the
13 village was set on fire. He came in the late afternoon and he found cow
14 sheds that were burnt down, the bodies of six women and one man, and he
15 recognised his mother by a ring on the finger of one of those bodies. And
16 he also recognised my wife's brother, Aziz. Aziz was a mentally disabled
17 person. He was retarded. And he usually had some small souvenirs,
18 lighters or something, with him, and that is how he recognised him,
19 because he had rubber boots, so he thought it might have been his body. So
20 he put them all in a sack or something and buried them behind the village,
21 in a plot that he owned. That is what I heard from him.
22 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Cirkic. I was trying to rush. What were you told
23 from Drago Bandala about the massacre in the mosque in Hanifici?
24 A. Drago Bandala said that a few minutes after the Serb units had
25 left that area, he came with a group of people and saw the mosque
1 in -- burning. And he said sometime before that he heard some shots in
2 that area. And when he entered the mosque, part of that mosque started
3 burning, that is, the rugs in the mosque. Which -- so the mosque had been
4 torched. And he saw bodies of several persons in one corner of the mosque
5 and he got those bodies out and buried them. He tried to put the fire
6 out, and he managed to do it with the help of some others, so that the
7 mosque did not burn at the time. But he also found many bullet casings in
8 the mosque, in the mosque where people go to pray.
9 Q. You stayed in Travnik for approximately one month; is that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And from there you went to Karlovac, in Croatia, where you stayed
13 for approximately eight months?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And from there you went to a third country?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. At the end of 1992 or 1993 -- or beginning of 1993, did you
18 compile a list of persons who were detained in Kotor Varos from the Kotor
19 Varos municipality?
20 A. I tried to recall all the persons whom I saw in the prison, and I
21 compiled a list of those names. Unfortunately, many of them I didn't know
22 before, or rather, I knew only the nicknames or the last names of various
23 people. After that, I established contact with Bakir Dizdar and I told
24 him that it would be a good idea, and he undertook to do it. So he took
25 those lists from me and also took two other people trying to add names to
1 the list.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm doing my best, but Mr.
3 Cunningham certainly is not going to have enough time.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: This strengthens my conviction how necessary it is
5 for me, as President of this Trial Chamber, to set out a time limit within
6 which you have to finish. Because five to ten minutes became already 30
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: I apologise, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: This was a witness which you yourself, the
10 Prosecution, anticipated would last one day, cross-examination included.
11 And we aren't anywhere near that as yet.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I think this witness's evidence has
13 been very important.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not contesting the importance, and that's why
15 I'm letting you continue. I haven't stopped you.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown this document. It has
17 an ERN number 0045-6995. And Your Honour, copies have already been --
18 copies are here for distribution. A copy has been provided to the
19 Defence. It was disclosed some time ago.
20 Q. Sir, can you please have a look at that document. Is this the
21 list that you helped compile with Bakir Dizdar and another gentleman
22 called Seval Alagic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Approximately how many names contained on this list were you able
25 to recall?
1 A. I think over 50 per cent of the names of the people I met. In
2 some cases our lists overlapped. We compiled the same lists. We tried to
3 correct this.
4 Q. And these people are listed under the village that they came from
5 within the Kotor Varos municipality; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If this document -- originally marked P2121, Your Honour.
8 Sir, I've finished with that document. I just have three or four
9 more questions for you. You have mentioned the problems with your
10 eyesight. What -- do you suffer from any other long-term health problems
11 as a result of what happened to you during your detention at the police
12 station, the school, and the old prison in Kotor Varos in 1992?
13 A. Yes. I feel any changes in the weather, in my back, in the area
14 of my back. Then there are the consequences I have already mentioned. In
15 addition, I have three broken ribs which have healed as they were left
16 fractured. But when I do difficult physical labour, this causes me pain.
17 Q. I think you also said that you have a number of broken teeth.
18 A. Yes. I forgot about my teeth. When I arrived in the third
19 country, the authorities offered to repair my damaged teeth. Some of them
20 were treated. So I now no longer have problems with my teeth.
21 Q. How many relatives did you lose in 1992 because of what happened
22 in Kotor Varos municipality?
23 A. From the core family members, I lost two family members. And two
24 or three people from my extended family. About five family members in
1 Q. How were they killed?
2 A. I know that one of them was hit by a shell in Vecici. The others
3 are listed as missing, in Grabovica. So I don't know what happened to
5 Q. How many relatives did your wife lose?
6 A. My wife lost two brothers, an aunt, an uncle, two of their sons.
7 Then the children from that family, nephews; and then the family that lost
8 some people in Vecici, I think that a total of 15 members of her family
9 died in the war.
10 Q. Did you write your memoirs about what happened to you and about
11 what happened in the Kotor Varos municipality in 1994?
12 A. I tried to put a few things down on paper. Your Honours, I was
13 never able to correct the grammatical mistakes or certain other things.
14 This material is in a very raw state. I was never able to make
15 corrections to it. That would remind me of everything, and that's
16 something that I don't want to do. What I wrote down, a lot of it is
17 information that I heard. I gathered information, where I was in Croatia,
18 and I tried to conjure up some sort of a picture of the events in the
19 municipality of Kotor Varos. That would be a work of a more literary
21 I'd like to try to go through that, but unfortunately I didn't
22 find the force to establish contact with some people who might have other
23 information or who might be able to correct me. But if such a person
24 could be found, I would be very grateful to that person.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. I have no further questions.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham, do you prefer to start now? We have
2 six, seven minutes.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, we haven't been able to find a
4 witness for Friday.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what worries me, Ms. Sutherland, and please
6 do understand, this is what worries me. You can't find Mr. Treanor, who
7 works with the OTP, Mr. Brown, who works with the OTP? They can't be
8 brought, either of them, on Friday?
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the two people that are leading
10 those two witnesses have been out of the office for the past week and a
11 half. They would need to prepare for both of those testimonies and I
12 don't think they're going to be able to do it in 24 hours.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's very difficult for me to understand. I have
14 spent the last over 30 years as a lawyer and a judge, and this is the
15 first time that I hear that something like that cannot be prepared in 48
16 hours, especially with two experts, expert witnesses, having a report, an
17 expert report which goes into hundreds and hundreds of papers which
18 supposedly whoever is going to lead those witnesses knows precisely the
19 contents of, better than we do.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. It's also a matter of
21 determining which out of the hundreds of documents that are footnoted in
22 the report --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Just present the report. Otherwise I will deal with
24 you the way you were dealt with in other cases, telling you we don't need
25 expert reports. I come from a jurisdiction, Ms. Sutherland, where we
1 don't even allow expert witnesses, ex parte expert witnesses, in criminal
2 cases. And I can tell you here and now that irrespective of where they
3 are going to come from, whether from your side or from the Defence, they
4 are always going to be considered ex parte. So I suggest you don't waste
5 much time. We do need them. I'm not saying that we don't need them. But
6 they will be given the importance of ex parte.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I was simply mentioning that we
8 didn't have a witness for Friday before Mr. Cunningham makes his mind up
9 whether he wanted to start examination this afternoon.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose we can stop here. We take up the
11 cross-examination tomorrow. And I will decide tomorrow whether the
12 testimony of the next witness should end tomorrow or not.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it's expected that he will finish
14 within the day.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I hope so. Thank you, and we will reconvene
16 tomorrow at 9.00.
17 Yes. One moment. In the meantime, at some point in time between
18 today and tomorrow, please try to go through the list of witnesses that
19 you have given us for next week, for the coming week, so that we are
20 assured that we don't have a repetition of this.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: If you want Friday to be dedicated for reorganising
23 the work for the week after, I'm pretty much prepared to grant you that.
24 But otherwise, let's not waste a day like that.
25 9.00 tomorrow. Thank you.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
2 1.42 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
3 the 19th day of June 2003, at 9.00 a.m.