Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18947

1 Monday, 7 July 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 This is IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Mr. Brdjanin, can you follow the

10 proceedings in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I

12 can.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Brdjanin. And good morning to you.

14 Please take your chair. Take a chair. Appearances for the Prosecution?

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours, Nicholas Koumjian, Ann

16 Sutherland and Denise Gustin.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. Appearances for Mr. Brdjanin?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman. I

19 appear here with Aleksandar Vujic on behalf of Mr. Brdjanin today.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you. Any

21 preliminaries before we proceed?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour. I have three matters that I want

23 to bring to your attention. I think all of them are rather -- well, at

24 least two of them are rather brief.

25 I handed Your Honours this morning, because I just received it

Page 18948

1 about 15 minutes ago, a letter that was sent to one of the members of our

2 association in response to her application for a licence. We've -- I

3 think all of us who are working here have -- or at least several of us

4 have applied for a licence and this apparently is a form letter that's

5 being sent out to everyone who makes that application. I would draw you

6 are attention to the part that I've underlined in red. "Please note that

7 filing an application for a licence or requesting information about the

8 transaction prohibitions contain an executive order or regulations

9 administered by OFAC does not suspend or excuse compliance with the

10 prohibitions or requirements contained within."

11 Now, this was issued after that letter that was sent to

12 Judge Meron. It was issued after conversations that I had with the

13 treasury department saying that they were -- they would probably be

14 issuing licences within 24 to 48 hours, and it seems to me that this

15 matter has now become quite serious again. I can tell you that before

16 even knowing about this letter, a decision was made to request a formal

17 opinion from a major law firm in Washington DC, that deals with matters of

18 this nature on a regular basis, as to whether or not it is a violation for

19 us to continue working in these courts, and our best guess is that it will

20 take seven to ten days for that opinion to be issued and then I think we

21 will have to comply with whatever advice we get from that opinion, and I

22 of course at this point have no idea what it's going to be. In spite of

23 this information, Your Honour, I think -- and I'm really kind of torn

24 about this, but I am so anxious to cooperate with this Court and to try to

25 get where this Court wants to get by the 1st of August, that I hesitate to

Page 18949

1 suggest that I'm reluctant to go forward in view of this most recent

2 information but it does cause me a great deal of concern, and I have a lot

3 of experience with the intransigence, if you will, of the U.S. government

4 regarding some matters of this nature. So I certainly want it understood

5 that I have a very large concern about this. I know that the President's

6 office has been working on this matter. You know that our association has

7 been working on this matter. I can also tell you that the National

8 Association of Criminal Defence Lawyers in the United States has been

9 working on this matter and so far, no one seems to have gotten beyond a

10 letter called an authorisation which we have been told is not a licence

11 and might be a pretty good defence if we get charged and that's about

12 where we are with regard to that.

13 The other thing I want to bring to your attention is that --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Ackerman. If the next thing you

15 were raising is not related to this matter, I would like to ask

16 Madam Registrar to block this first part of the transcript, have it

17 copied, and communicate it to the President, President Meron, for his

18 information as soon as possible, please. In other words, if you can have

19 it printed out now, it can perhaps be sent to President Meron's office

20 without any delay, because I understand that this can become a problem and

21 we have given it enough time to see whether there could be a positive

22 conclusive development which obviously has not been forthcoming as yet.

23 So that's it.

24 Yes, Mr. Ackerman? Next point?

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, this has to do with upcoming witnesses

Page 18950

1 and I think I can do this in open session without mentioning any names. In

2 anticipation of the assignment of lawyer Baruch to assist in this case,

3 without being assigned, she has prepared the cross-examination of Witness

4 7.277 and 7.124, and I understand that the Prosecution would like to call

5 Witness 7.124 tomorrow, and I am thus hoping that the Registry's

6 assignment of Ms. Baruch will occur in time for her to be here to deal

7 with that witness and I say that because of this: I am -- Your Honour, I

8 think the best word to describe my condition is I am exhausted. I have

9 not been well now for five or six days. I'm convinced it's because I

10 can't get any rest and have not been able to get any rest because the pace

11 at which this case is moving is such that I have to work almost

12 constantly. We have a very serious witness coming up Wednesday, that's

13 going to take significant preparation time on my part. I simply cannot

14 prepare for that witness and 7.277 and 7.124. I cannot be prepared for

15 all of those three witnesses, it's just beyond not only my capability but

16 probably any human capability so I just wanted to bring that to your

17 attention. I really need, I think, three or four days rest. I don't

18 think I'm going to get it and I'll just muddle on as best I can, I guess.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And that was the second -- you said you had three

20 points to raise.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that one contained two things, Your Honours,

22 the lack of assignment of Ms. Baruch and the way I'm feeling now.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. What I will do, Mr. Ackerman is I will

24 try to contact the Registrar again. You know that I can't take decisions

25 for him, and I'll do my best.

Page 18951

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, let me point out, Your Honour, that just very

2 recently, in the -- in another case here, the judge actually issued an

3 order to the Registry to provide a third counsel for a period of time, to

4 pay that counsel and so forth, and when the Registry gets such an order,

5 then they will comply with it. I believe that it is the position of the

6 Registry that they will not go beyond their sort of basic guidelines

7 unless by court order. So I think perhaps if Your Honour wants to --

8 wants this matter to occur, that it might require you to issue an order

9 but I don't know.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll see to that, about that. I can't promise you

11 anything, Mr. Ackerman, because I need to check about how far the Trial

12 Chamber can go in matters that fall within the discretion of the

13 Registrar, but if it has been done -- in which other case has it been

14 done?

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the order was in the Blagojevic case,

16 issued maybe about ten days ago by Judge Daqun. There are a number of

17 other similar matters pending before - I think there may be as many as

18 five or six - pending before Trial Chambers and the Registry concedes that

19 they have to comply with orders of the Trial Chambers in this regard

20 because of the statutory language regarding equality of arms and so forth.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So any preliminaries from the

22 Prosecution side?

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I am going to make an announcement which

25 will be a disappointment to the members of the public. The witness we are

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Page 18953

1 about to hear is -- will be heard in closed session so you will not be

2 able to follow the proceedings. I'm sorry about this, but it's something

3 which I cannot avoid. So we are going to draw down the curtains, go into

4 closed session, admit the witness and proceed with his testimony.

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23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Or we can stay in closed session? What's the

25 position because I'm getting really confused now. Next witness is 7.203;

Page 19024

1 right?

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Correct.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Which will also be dealing with intercepts, in other

4 words.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, and it's closed session. Then we propose to

6 put in 7.124 who should be a short witness and I believe --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: And this is again because I don't have the -- 7.124

8 will be dealing with what?

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's a Sipovo live witness. It should be a very

10 short witness.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's stop there for the time being.

12 Are you prepared to cross-examine 7.203?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: As I understand it, this has been shifted or what?

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Is that the next witness, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the next witness, 7.203.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, I am.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And 7.124 is Madam Baruch.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And then 7.227. Who is this witness? I mean, you

21 don't need to mention names, but --

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: No. The next witness will be 7.223, again from an

23 international organisation, that witness.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That's Wednesday.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's Wednesday.

Page 19025

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically we have to finish 7.203 and 7.124

2 between today and tomorrow.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Which we should be able to do.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But it's not a question of should be able to do

5 because I realise that we went overboard with this witness and therefore I

6 have to intervene. Mr. Ackerman, 7.203, how much time do you need for

7 cross-examination?

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it looks like I may have 30 minutes,

9 maybe less.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And examination-in-chief?

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: 30 minutes or less.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we try and finish -- shall we try and

13 make an effort and try to finish this witness now?

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'll do my best, yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm cutting it short. Let's bring the witness in.

16 Closed session.

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12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

13 1.51 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday

14 the 8th day of July, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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