Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19045

1 Tuesday, 8 July 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

10 Mr. Brdjanin, can you follow in a language that you can

11 understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning to all. I can follow,

13 thank you very much.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please take a chair.

15 Appearances, Prosecution?

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Joanna Korner; Nicholas Koumjian; Anna

17 Richterova, hidden; and Denise Gustin, case manager. Good morning, Your

18 Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good morning.

20 Appearances, Radoslav Brdjanin.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.

22 I'm here this morning with Barbara Baruch and Aleksandar Vujic.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you. And welcome

24 back, Ms. Baruch.

25 Before I ask if you have any preliminaries I promised you a

Page 19046

1 decision yesterday on the 24th motion for protective measures, which was

2 filed by the Prosecution on the 4th of this month, of July. I will deal

3 first with witness to whom the pseudonym BT105 is being suggested.

4 The Prosecution has asked for pseudonym and image distortion by

5 way of protective measures for this witness. The Chamber has seen the

6 reasons put forward by the Prosecution as a ground for their request for

7 these protective measures. The Trial Chamber agrees with them.

8 Consequently, the protective measures requested are being granted

9 effective immediately because I think this witness is coming over this

10 morning, no?

11 MS. KORNER: That's right, Your Honour, he's the next witness.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So then we have another witness for whom protective

13 measures, consisting of pseudonym and closed session have been requested.

14 It's been suggested that this witness, if granted a pseudonym, will be

15 known as witness BT93. The Chamber has taken into consideration the

16 reasons put forward by the Prosecution as ground for their request. For

17 the time being the Chamber agrees to grant the protective measures

18 requested, namely that of pseudonym and closed session, but wants to make

19 it clear that it will interview the witness in the beginning of his

20 testimony to confirm whether to continue with closed session -- in closed

21 session or not.

22 For the time being, the protective measures requested are being

23 granted as requested. Therefore, the evidence of -- testimony of this

24 witness will be referred to as BT93 will be heard in closed session.

25 Any preliminaries, Ms. Korner?

Page 19047

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's what's known as the jinx. If you

2 want to finish a case quickly, something is always going to happen. Can I

3 assure Your Honour that neither Mr. Ackerman nor myself were driving motor

4 cars last night, but tomorrow's witness was in a car accident yesterday.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me -- he?

6 MS. KORNER: Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, no.

8 MS. KORNER: Oh, yes. He's in hospital. We had a phone call this

9 morning from his secretary. He's in hospital with a broken arm and

10 possible internal injuries and they are doing tests today. Your Honour,

11 the trouble -- obviously he's in no fit state to testify tomorrow and he

12 is committed to go abroad.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: On Thursday.

14 MS. KORNER: On Saturday morning and it's unlikely he'll be fit to

15 come here before that and certainly not to testify.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Where did the accident take place? Here?

17 MS. KORNER: I can't tell Your Honour that -- I mean, I can but I

18 will have to do it in private session, if we go into private.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session.

20 [Private session]

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 19048

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Pages 19048 to 19057 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19058

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, I do apologise to you. Please can you

8 start again?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour. With regard to the issue with

10 the Treasury Department and the fact that all of us from the United States

11 are appearing here without a licence from the treasury, I want to report

12 what happened yesterday.

13 First of all, you're aware of the letter that was received by

14 Ms. Sinatra, which basically said: Applying for a licence does not

15 relieve you of your obligations to follow the law. Plus a previous letter

16 to Mr. Hayman saying that: Appearing without a licence is in violation of

17 a law, plus a conversation that I had with an officer at the Treasury

18 Department saying that the letter, the authorisation letter is not a

19 licence and that at best it's a defence if we are charged with some kind

20 of an offence. Everyone now agrees with that proposition.

21 We talked yesterday, as a result of this letter that we received

22 yesterday, with Mr. Kay, who is a legal officer at the United States

23 Embassy and is actively working on this matter. He told us that a general

24 licence was supposed to have been issued last week, they thought they

25 would have it last Thursday, and then some -- the general licence wound up

Page 19059

1 on someone's desk in Washington, who became concerned about its rather

2 broad language, and that delayed it. He now expects that it will be

3 issued -- that we will have it tomorrow, this Wednesday.

4 We told him that we were very reluctant because each day we appear

5 in court is technically a felony violation of the United States code, that

6 we were very reluctant to go forward after Wednesday if that licence is

7 not issued. He informed us that that could be helpful to take that

8 position because that would enable him to put some additional pressure on

9 the Treasury Department to get it issued. So for purposes of the record

10 today, Ms. Baruch and I are taking the position that we cannot appear in

11 court after tomorrow unless we have a licence because we cannot continue

12 to risk the violation of these regulations and a felony prosecution. That

13 is our position.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: How do you suggest that this can be communicated to

15 the legal officer in your embassy?

16 MR. ACKERMAN: It was communicated to him yesterday, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: No. No. No. Your public statement of today.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: I can call him but he was -- it was made clear to

19 him yesterday that this is the position we would take, I believe.

20 Ms. Baruch agrees.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: What I am doing is that, as I did on previous

22 occasions, I'm asking the Registrar to block this part of the proceedings

23 of today, copy it for President Meron, including the statement that I am

24 going to make now, namely that I think at this point in time, it is

25 important for this Tribunal to communicate to the officer mentioned by

Page 19060

1 Mr. Ackerman, officer in the U.S. Embassy here in The Hague, the

2 predicament that this Trial Chamber in particular would find itself in

3 if -- starting from Thursday it will be unable to sit due to Mr. Ackerman

4 not -- Mr. Brdjanin not being represented according to his rights.

5 So that goes to President Meron, this morning, Madam Registrar.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, as soon as I complete the

7 cross-examination of the current witness, I'm going to ask your permission

8 to depart.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: And I will be immediately in touch with Larry

11 Johnson at the President's office, and I'm confident that this matter will

12 be worked out by Wednesday and I don't think it's going to interrupt --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope so, Mr. Ackerman, because frankly the last

14 week or so, when I heard nothing from you, there was no reaction in court

15 here, I didn't bother to ask President Meron but I took it for granted

16 that the permission or permit had been communicated to you.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Many people have been working on it, Your Honour.

18 There just wasn't much to tell you except that we were still working on

19 it.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I do also want to say publicly that I do appreciate

21 the fact that in spite of the fact that you did not receive any

22 communication, you continued to show up here and carry on with your

23 duties.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, the reason we picked Wednesday

25 yesterday was we wanted to be sure that any witnesses who had come from

Page 19061

1 out of town would be finished before we took that position. The remaining

2 witnesses this week -- the witness this week is from the Prosecutor's

3 Office, so it wouldn't be a big inconvenience.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, can you bring Mr. Brown on Wednesday?

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we could but in fact we -- counsel are

6 saying a very firm no. Your Honour, we can't get the next witness up here

7 until Monday in any event so that there is a witness -- the only -- the

8 witness who is coming today is the only witness dealing with the events of

9 Sipovo which you're going to hear.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: The military expert.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes, we put him down for two days, so if he testifies

12 Thursday and Friday he'll be finished definitely.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know why we need two days for him but we'll

14 see.

15 MS. KORNER: I actually think Your Honours will find that, rather

16 like Mr. Treanor, his evidence is such as to explain quite a lot of what

17 happened. I know he's already testified in --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And I have read his evidence in Stakic.

19 MS. KORNER: Absolutely, but that only dealt with one aspect of

20 it.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I also read the testimony of the counterpart.

22 MS. KORNER: Oh, the general that was called in Stakic?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

24 MS. KORNER: Well, unless Mr. Ackerman is calling him, that

25 evidence is --

Page 19062

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19063

1 JUDGE AGIUS: It's partly confirmative, partly not.

2 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, we are perfectly happy --

3 Mr. Koumjian who dealt with it says we are perfectly happy for the

4 transcript to be put into evidence of the general.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Partly -- to a large extent he confirmed the

6 testimony of Mr. Brown.

7 MS. KORNER: That's right.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But then he disagrees substantially on other matters

9 too.

10 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, problem is I'm not sure Your

11 Honour ought to have read it because it's not evidence in this case.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. But I am -- before hearing the evidence of

13 Mr. Brown, I thought I better read the -- we are talking of experts after

14 all. Anyway --

15 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, I mean, I don't think I'm going to take

16 the point, Your Honour, but technically, it's -- I hope Your Honour was

17 reading it as light reading.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Reading it as I read other books about Bosnia, about

19 what happened in the area. I'm not deciding the case on what witnesses

20 may have said in other cases.

21 MS. KORNER: Yes. And Your Honour will notice that Mr. Koumjian

22 did cross-examine him on some of the things that he said.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but that's up -- I would expect Mr. Ackerman

24 to bring an expert himself on this matter because it's an important

25 aspect.

Page 19064

1 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, that's right. That's why we put

2 him down for two days and the documents we think will be easier to look at

3 because they are going to be in sanction, so you can put them on the

4 screen.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So let's start with this witness. I think we

6 go into closed session.

7 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honour excuse me as well from the case.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely.

9 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

10 [Closed session]

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 19065

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Pages 19065 to 19071 redacted closed session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19072

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, with your permission, I would like to

22 be excused and I will leave you all in the very capable hands of

23 Madam Baruch and I'll go do some very interesting things.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You're welcome, Mr. Ackerman. And let's

25 hope that by tomorrow you get this permit. Things move slowly but at the

Page 19073

1 end, most of the time, they do move.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: I will, Your Honour, see you when the next witness

3 is called. I'll be back for the next witness. I believe he'll be ready

4 today.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You told me yesterday that this was going to

6 be a very short --

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, I think Ms. Richterova says the direct will be

8 about an hour.

9 MS. RICHTEROVA: Most probably, but you know me, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And since I know you I am going to make sure

11 that you finish -- let's see how you get along.

12 And then, Mrs. Baruch, how long do you expect your

13 cross-examination to last?

14 MS. BARUCH: I have to say, Your Honour, that because we refer to

15 these witnesses only by pseudonym, I'm not even sure which of the two

16 witnesses --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: 105, the Sipovo --

18 MS. BARUCH: The Sipovo witness.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, yes. I suppose it will be a very short

20 cross-examination because it's -- there is very little to this.

21 MS. BARUCH: If you recall, the first day that I started somebody

22 asked how long is my cross-examination and I gave something like 26 pages;

23 today I have five.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So I would expect it to be a very short

25 cross-examination to tell you the truth, because there isn't much you can

Page 19074

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19075

1 cross-examine about.

2 Madam Richterova, did you discuss with Mr. Koumjian how much he

3 requires with the next -- with the following witness?

4 MS. RICHTEROVA: To be honest, I didn't discuss it with him, so

5 I --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: But because he can testify until tomorrow so

8 there won't be any problem, but I don't think that he's a very long

9 witness.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

11 7.223 the next one after this one, Ms. Gustin?

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: No, this witness, 7.223, is the witness who was

13 injured.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Injured. So who is the next one after 105?

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: Ms. Gustin will tell me in a moment.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I'm getting confused honestly now with the

17 numbers.

18 MS. RICHTEROVA: The next witness will be 7.277, which is BT99.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: 99. That's another intercept, no?

20 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The next witness, Mrs. Baruch, will be 7.277. Is it

22 your witness?

23 MS. BARUCH: 7.277 is one that I was expecting to take, but you

24 said a different number for the next witness, and I have been preparing

25 for Witness number 7.124 from Sipovo.

Page 19076

1 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, that's right. It's my witness who will

2 testify right now.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And it's BT105.

4 MS. BARUCH: Thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We can leave the curtains down, no? So that members

6 of the public will not be able to look -- what seems to have happened --

7 they have found it, all right. They have found it. I was going to

8 suggest that -- thank you, usher.

9 So let's bring the witness in.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir. I saw you nodding, so I

12 take it that you are receiving interpretation in your language? And

13 therefore you can follow what I am saying? Good.

14 You are about to start giving evidence in this trial, which has

15 been going on against Radoslav Brdjanin, and before you do so, our rules

16 require that you enter a solemn declaration which is contained in the

17 piece of paper that you have just been handed. Basically it's equivalent

18 to an oath. Namely that in the course of your testimony, you undertake,

19 you promise, that you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth and

20 nothing but the truth. So please go ahead.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 WITNESS: WITNESS BT105

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please take a chair.

Page 19077

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: You asked or the Prosecution asked on your behalf

3 that for some protective measures to hide your identity. We have decided,

4 Judges Janu and Judge Taya and myself to grant you the protective measures

5 that the Prosecution has asked for you, namely that you will not be

6 referred to by your name but you will be referred to by a number, which we

7 have given you, and you in fact you are going to be referred to as Witness

8 BT105.

9 And we also have consented, granted, that no one will be able to

10 see your face outside these -- this courtroom, since that we have placed

11 an order that there will be visual distortion. If you look at your

12 screen, at the monitor in front of you, that is how others are going to

13 see you. In other words, no one will be able to see your face directly or

14 be able to recognise you through your face.

15 Otherwise, the testimony will be given in an open session and any

16 parts during the testimony which may reveal your identity will be heard in

17 private session so that no one can hear them. For example, very soon

18 you're going to be shown a piece of paper with your name. You will not

19 read it. You will -- out aloud, you will just look at it and say yes,

20 this is my name. When you're giving testimony you're not going to give

21 any indications of any relatives, et cetera, in open session because

22 otherwise people can identify you so you need to help us so that we try

23 and do our best to continue hiding your identity. And when it is

24 necessary we will go into private session. Please have a look at that

25 piece of paper and tell me whether that is your name.

Page 19078

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mrs. Baruch would like to see it.

3 That's going to be, Ms. Richterova, an exhibit?

4 MS. RICHTEROVA: This will be Exhibit P2412 under seal.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So it's under seal. We go into private

6 session?

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: I can start in open session and then we can go

8 into private session.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Whenever you tell me, Ms. Richterova.

10 MS. RICHTEROVA: I would like to start with some background

11 information about the Sipovo municipality and I want to show the witness a

12 map of ethnic composition, and we will distribute the spare copies to Your

13 Honours as well and to the Defence, of course. Maybe if we could place it

14 on the ELMO it would be easier.

15 Examined by Ms. Richterova:

16 Q. We can see the map of ethnic distribution in the Sipovo

17 municipality. At the same time, at the beginning, I would like to read

18 one small part from the exhibit P2402. At this moment, we don't need to

19 show this document to the witness because I only want him to confirm

20 whether -- whether the numbers -- whether the figures are correct. This

21 document states that according to the 1991 census, the municipality

22 numbered about 15.500 inhabitants. Of those, 12.317 or 79.20 per cent

23 were Serbs, and 2.990 or 19.27 per cent were Muslims.

24 Is it correct, this ethnic distribution, for the municipality of

25 Sipovo?

Page 19079

1 A. I think that it is.

2 Q. If you -- if you are so kind and have a look at the map of Sipovo,

3 can you tell us whether, according to this map, the distribution is

4 correct or whether you want to point some errors? And if you want to

5 point at the map, you have to do it at the ELMO, at the machine, not on

6 the screen.

7 A. All right. The village of Lubovo was mostly populated by

8 Muslims. They had majority there. The same applies to the village of

9 Vrazic. In the suburb and settlement of Sarici, there were a lot of

10 Muslims living there. The same goes for Cifluk. In Sipovo itself, a

11 large number of Muslims lived. The village of Brdjani, Majevac, and Donji

12 Mujdzici. That's all.

13 Q. A minute ago, I read from the Exhibit P2402 and it says that the

14 municipality was divided into seven local communes of Mirisna [phoen],

15 Vajenica [phoen]. It was Sipovo town, if you could just point at -- we

16 can see it, Volari was another local commune, we can see it. The other

17 one was Pljeva, which -- we cannot see the word "Pljeva." Can you show us

18 where Pljeva is and --

19 A. Pljeva covers Dragnic, Majevac, and Brdjani. It encompasses those

20 villages.

21 Q. And Pljeva was predominantly occupied by which people -- which

22 people, which nationality?

23 A. It was mixed. I'm not sure of percentages.

24 Q. Then we have Mirisna, Vajenica, Strojica. Can you show us

25 Mirisna, Vajenica, Strojica, where it is?

Page 19080

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19081

1 A. The local community Stojica includes settlements along the valley

2 of the Jana river.

3 Q. And what was the ethnic composition of these villages?

4 A. They were Serb villages. That was their ethnic composition.

5 Q. And is it also true for the local communes of Babici, Grbavica,

6 and Pribeljci?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. And can you show us which direction on this map is the

9 municipality of Jajce?

10 A. Yes, I can.

11 Q. So it means that the municipality Jajce borders with predominantly

12 Muslim villages in the municipality of Sipovo. Is it correct?

13 A. Yes. Duljci and Volari [phoen].

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we go now into private session for a second?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session Madam Registrar,

16 please?

17 [Private session]

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 19082

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 19082 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19083

1 (Redacted) (Redacted)

2

3

4 [Open session]

5 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm done with the map and I should tender it

6 under Exhibit Number P2413.

7 Q. I would like to talk to you briefly about the life in the Sipovo

8 municipality and Sipovo town. How would you describe the atmosphere in

9 the municipality itself, during the year 1992? First, did you notice

10 that -- did you notice that there would be presence of military or police

11 forces which weren't present there before?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And can you tell us more about this. What -- if you say --

14 because you are saying yes, what did you notice?

15 A. I noticed police wearing camouflage military uniform; those were

16 the so-called Martic's men. So these policemen moved about the town with

17 automatic weapons in large groups.

18 Q. Did you know where they came from?

19 A. No. I didn't know that.

20 Q. Did you know any members of the Martic group?

21 A. I did. [redacted].

22 Q. These two men, where were they from?

23 A. [redacted].

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, can we redact this part.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I have to. This is what I mean, you have to be

Page 19084

1 careful because we try to protect you and then you don't protect yourself.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, Madam Registrar,

4 please.

5 [Private session]

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 19085

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 MS. RICHTEROVA:

8 Q. You mentioned the presence of Martic's group. Can you tell us

9 generally how the life changed in Sipovo? Were they -- were there more

10 shootings than before? Were there some explosions? Please elaborate how

11 the life changed in Sipovo in the year 1992.

12 MS. BARUCH: Your Honour, may I object to places other than in the

13 village or places -- his village, or in places where he was. Because from

14 this map, especially, Exhibit 2413, it looks to me like this would be

15 quite a big place, and of course at the time the witness was quite young

16 and so I think it would be purely speculative for him to think about other

17 areas in which he did not live or associate.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: If he is aware of what the situation was in other

19 places, he can testify. For example, if you read his statement of the 3rd

20 of June of 1997, he explains what he saw one day in July and August of

21 1991, when he was on holiday in Croatia.

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry, Your Honour, there was a big mistake.

23 You probably received a statement of another person. Can we go into

24 private session, please?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. It's -- yeah, let's go into private

Page 19086

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19087

1 session.

2 [Private session]

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: The position as far as I'm concerned, just to make

24 it clear, the witness can be asked and he is expected to answer any

25 questions about events taking place outside of Sipovo if he knows about

Page 19088

1 them. Especially if he has witnessed them himself.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA:

3 Q. Sir, before this long exchange of our opinions, I will repeat for

4 you the question: Can you please describe briefly the atmosphere in the

5 municipality of Sipovo, as you know it.

6 A. In March and April of 1992, the said armed forces appeared in

7 Sipovo. Their presence was obvious everywhere around the town and

8 surrounding villages. Their conduct -- first of all, let me say that they

9 were armed with firearms, they frequently consumed alcohol, and they fired

10 from their weapons while under the influence of alcohol. And that was

11 particularly widespread in the evening hours and during the night.

12 Q. Sir, do you still remember their uniforms? You mentioned that

13 they were in camouflage uniforms but did you notice any particular

14 insignias on their uniforms?

15 A. Yes. I remember the national emblem with a two-headed eagle.

16 That's a Serb national emblem.

17 Q. You mentioned that they were shooting and mainly they were

18 shooting in the evenings. Did they -- did you witness or did you hear

19 anything about damage of particular properties? And I am again talking

20 about the year, end of 1991, first half of 1992.

21 MS. BARUCH: Again, I have to object, the witness said in March of

22 1992 these people came. So the end of 1991 and three months at least --

23 MS. RICHTEROVA: I apologise but when I said -- I'm referring

24 generally to the situation in Sipovo.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead and please answer the question.

Page 19089

1 It doesn't make a difference, Mrs. Baruch, the way it has been

2 framed now, we have seen the context.

3 MS. RICHTEROVA:

4 Q. Did you know at the period of time that there were some houses,

5 some premises, destroyed or damaged in the Sipovo municipality, as again,

6 as you know -- if you know?

7 A. I would say that the damage occurred a bit later.

8 Q. And when you say "a bit later," when did it start?

9 A. It started sometime after May, meaning in June and onwards.

10 Q. When talking about this atmosphere, can you tell us whether you

11 noticed that a checkpoint or checkpoints would be set up, either in the

12 town of Sipovo or in other places?

13 A. Yes. I noticed that. The checkpoints were there in late March

14 and on.

15 Q. Tell us where exactly these checkpoints were located.

16 A. Initially, the checkpoints were located on the road leading to

17 Jajce. Later on, they were set up in other sites which were on the exit

18 from the town.

19 Q. You said that these checkpoints were set up in late March. In

20 late March, was it difficult to pass these checkpoints, to pass through

21 these checkpoints?

22 A. Initially, the control wasn't rigorous, but later on it was more

23 intense. All of the passers-by, especially Muslims, were searched and

24 some people were abused physically and verbally.

25 Q. And again, when you said "later on," can you tell us what period

Page 19090

1 of time you are talking about.

2 A. From early June, let's say.

3 Q. My last question about the checkpoints: Do you remember who

4 manned these checkpoints?

5 A. The forces that I've mentioned in the beginning, Martic's men

6 and --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the end of the

8 sentence, please.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: The interpreters didn't catch the last part of your

10 answer. They only got as far as the forces that I have mentioned at the

11 beginning, Martic's men, and then you said something else but they

12 couldn't hear.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] White Eagles.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Whenever it's convenient for

15 you -- I mean you've got another two minutes, three minutes --

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: In fact, I just wanted to ask you if we can break

17 now because it's a convenient time for me.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We will have a 25-minute break starting

19 from now. Thank you.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I can tell you this: There is a wrong

22 date of birth also in another statement that you gave us. Yes. It's not

23 that I am keen on apologies. I don't care but we need to clear that up.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

Page 19091

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session for a while,

2 please.

3 [Private session]

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 19092

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19093

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 MS. RICHTEROVA:

10 Q. Sir --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And we try to conclude in half an hour,

12 Ms. Richterova.

13 MS. RICHTEROVA: 45 minutes?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Koumjian is very anxious to start with the next

15 witness.

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: I know.

17 Q. Sir, before I start talking about documents, I have one last

18 question about the general atmosphere in Sipovo municipality. To your

19 knowledge, during the first half of the year 1992, or the end of 1991, did

20 you witness or did you hear about any murders which would be committed in

21 the municipality of Sipovo?

22 A. I heard about the murder of Mehemed Ganibegovic. Also I heard

23 about the disappearance of Mersih Kudic.

24 Q. But you didn't witness these murders, is it correct?

25 A. That is correct. I didn't witness that.

Page 19094

1 Q. Did you hear who supposedly committed these crimes?

2 A. Yes. I heard that this was committed by Martic's men.

3 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can the witness be shown the Exhibit P2395?

4 Q. In B/C/S, I want to refer to the page with -- which bears the ERN

5 Number 0219-4135. And in English version, it is the second page, right

6 below the word "item 2." It says, under item 2 -- first, I'm sorry, I

7 will start with the document itself. This document is dated 19 of May,

8 1992, and these are minutes of the Sipovo municipal Crisis Staff meeting.

9 My first question is: Did you know that there was a Crisis Staff

10 in Sipovo?

11 A. No, I didn't know that.

12 Q. Second question is: Did you know who was the President of the

13 municipality?

14 A. I believe it was Dragan Djukic.

15 Q. And --

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we go into private session for a moment?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

18 Before we do so, Dragan and Rade Djukic would be the same person?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Let's go into private

21 session.

22 [Private session]

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 19095

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.

20 MS. RICHTEROVA:

21 Q. I will read under the item 2 a few parts. It's Jovo Bogdanovic

22 said that we had searched the houses in Besnjevo, and it refers to

23 disarmament. Nedjo Gvozden says: "Until we resolve the matter of

24 disarming the Muslims in Sipovo, we should talk with prominent Muslims,

25 the units will impose a blockade on Sipovo, and start searching houses.

Page 19096

1 And Rade Dj: The batillion will not begin operations towards Jajce until

2 the disarmament of the Muslims is finished."

3 My first question is: Did you hear any announcements with respect

4 to handing over illegal or legal weapons in Sipovo?

5 A. I'm not aware of any public announcements, but I am aware of the

6 fact that the police did take all the legal weapons. For example, my

7 father's hunting rifle was taken away from him.

8 Q. Did you know whether your father was the only person, or whether

9 the weapons were taken from other people, and you can probably talk about

10 the people in your village?

11 A. I know that weapons were confiscated from all the Muslims in my

12 village, and I also heard that the same happened everywhere on the

13 territory of the municipality. Only those Muslims who accepted to be

14 members of the armed Serbian forces could keep their weapons.

15 Q. Who took these weapons? Was it members of army or the police?

16 A. Those were regular policemen and the confiscation of the weapons

17 was accompanied by issuing certificates for the arms taken.

18 Q. Towards the end of the page in which we read about the disarmament

19 in B/C/S version, 0219-4135, is Spiro, the Muslims were buying weapons.

20 Did you know anything about the fact that Muslims were generally buying

21 weapons, either legally or illegally? And I'm again referring towards the

22 end of 1991 and beginning of 1992.

23 A. I'm not aware of that.

24 Q. There is another conclusion, and it is on the page 4, and in B/C/S

25 version, it is on the page 0219-4136, and it says: Disarmament of

Page 19097

1 paramilitary units and Muslims by 24 hours on 22nd of May, 1992.

2 Now I would like to turn into another subject, which was discussed

3 during this meeting but I will go back to one more thing. Do you know

4 whether, when you had to hand over your weapons, whether the houses were

5 searched?

6 A. I don't remember. In any case, this didn't happen to my family.

7 And as for others, I wouldn't know.

8 Q. Thank you. The other issue which I want to discuss is the issue

9 which is mentioned in B/C/S on the page 0219-4139, and it is on the bottom

10 of this page. Did you find it? And it is page 6 on the bottom. It

11 says: "Firing Muslims from specific positions, change in the post office,

12 change in the fire-fighting society, change at the petrol station."

13 Did you know anything that Muslims in some positions were

14 dismissed or were replaced?

15 A. I didn't know anything about that. I am only aware of the cases

16 of companies going bankrupt.

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can the witness be shown -- I'm done with this

18 exhibit. Can the witness be shown Exhibit 2398.

19 Q. And I will talk about the issue which is mentioned in B/C/S

20 version on the page 0219-4122, and English version, it is page 3 at the

21 bottom. The first thing is mentioned: "Milorad G., take a stand with

22 regard to the Muslims?" And Savo Popovic talks: "As for the Muslims, a

23 public announcement should be made if we are going to expel them.

24 Families of those who refuse to the call-up should be told to leave."

25 Did you -- and now I'm again talking about the year --

Page 19098

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19099

1 MS. RICHTEROVA: I see Ms. Baruch --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Madam Baruch.

3 Microphone, please.

4 MS. BARUCH: I'm sorry, I can't find -- we just got the exhibit

5 numbers today and I have to find the number that corresponds with 2398.

6 Are you still on 2398?

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: I can provide you with extra copies for a moment.

8 MS. BARUCH: I think I found it. I have, thank you.

9 MS. RICHTEROVA: It is document dated 2nd of June, 1992.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, both of you. Let's proceed. It's

11 page 3 at the bottom of the page that you need to refer, Mrs. Baruch.

12 MS. BARUCH: Just to be certain about this, this is an unsigned

13 and unsealed document. Is that not correct?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

15 MS. BARUCH: Okay.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry about that because at the end of the

17 day, we will go through all this and we will take into consideration the

18 general objection that was made earlier, at the early stages of the

19 trial. So you doesn't need to stand up and remind us that this has been

20 objected to because we have -- every document is recorded as having been

21 objected to or not objected to.

22 MS. RICHTEROVA:

23 Q. Sir, did you hear during the year 1992 any announcement which

24 would allowing Muslims to leave the municipality?

25 A. No, I didn't hear that.

Page 19100

1 Q. Was it difficult to leave the municipality of Sipovo during the

2 year of 1992? And I am referring to Muslims or to non-Serbs living in the

3 municipality.

4 A. I know that in the first half of 1991 [as interpreted], some

5 Muslims left Sipovo and went in the direction of Jajce. After that, it

6 became impossible to leave Sipovo. You couldn't go anywhere. Up to 12

7 February, 1993.

8 Q. Sir, in the transcript, we have, in the first half of the year

9 1991. Did you say that the Muslims were able to leave in the first half

10 of the year 1991 or 1992?

11 A. I meant 1992, and I believe that this is what I said also.

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: I am done with this document. Can the witness be

13 shown Exhibit P2399. It is -- these are minutes from the session of the

14 Crisis Staff held on 4th June, 1992.

15 Q. I will start with the page number 1, and in B/C/S, it is middle of

16 the second page, page 0219-4125, in the middle, and it says: "Stojica

17 received 50 rifles, Babici, lack of weapons."

18 At the beginning we were talking about the villages, which

19 villages were predominantly Muslim villages, which were predominantly

20 Serbs. Stojica and Babici are villages in the Sipovo municipality. Who

21 were the people who lived there, which ethnicity?

22 A. Serbs. There were no Muslims in those villages.

23 Q. Did you see -- because we were already talking about the Muslims

24 who had to hand over their weapons. Did you know whether Serbs first

25 owned weapons and whether they had to hand them over as well?

Page 19101

1 A. I am not aware of the fact that they were supposed to hand over

2 their weapons, and I'm aware that others did.

3 Q. Did you see Serbs wearing -- carrying, I'm sorry -- carrying

4 weapons?

5 A. Yes. I saw them.

6 Q. Were they -- those Serbs who carried these weapons, were they

7 soldiers, policemen, or civilians?

8 A. All those that you mentioned were there. There were policemen,

9 there were soldiers, there were civilians. Very often they were minors.

10 In other words, people who were not trained to use those weapons.

11 Q. Now I want to direct your attention to the page in B/C/S,

12 0219-4129, and in English, it is page 3, in the middle, right above the

13 item 3. Spiro S. says: "I would appreciate being given the paper that

14 says that the work obligation applies to the Muslims who are loyal." And

15 then again we have: "A public announcement should be made that any Muslim

16 who wants to leave can do it safely." We already heard your comment on

17 this.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Ms. Richterova, your previous question was

19 different because his -- the record in the minutes was different. You're

20 referring to 2398, no? The previous statement.

21 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: In the previous statement, on page 3, Savo Popovic

23 is reported to have stated: "As for Muslims, a public announcement should

24 be made if we are going to expel them. Families of those who refused the

25 call-up should be told to leave." And he said he had not heard any such

Page 19102

1 announcement. This is a little bit -- not a little bit, it's dramatically

2 different. A public announcement should be made that any Muslim who wants

3 to leave can do it safely. So go straight to this and ask him whether he

4 ever heard such an announcement.

5 MS. RICHTEROVA: I apologise, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: No need to apologise.

7 MS. RICHTEROVA:

8 Q. Sir, did you hear any public announcement that Muslims can leave

9 the municipality if they wanted?

10 A. No. I didn't hear any such thing.

11 Q. And I want to direct your attention to the word -- the work

12 obligation. Was there a work obligation in the municipality of Sipovo?

13 A. Yes, there was --

14 Q. And when --

15 A. -- work obligation.

16 Q. When did it start, approximately?

17 A. I can't remember the date but I believe that it was in June.

18 Q. This works obligation, was it for all the people or just for some

19 ethnicity living in the municipality?

20 A. The work obligation applied to Muslims, to the able-bodied

21 Muslims.

22 Q. Did you participate in the work obligation or did anyone from your

23 family participate in that?

24 A. I did not participate in the work obligation, but my father and my

25 brother did.

Page 19103

1 Q. Did you learn from them what they were supposed to do?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we remain in open session now or go into

3 private session?

4 MS. RICHTEROVA: We can remain in open session.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard from them that they did

7 menial jobs. They were digging trenches and they worked on other features

8 on the front line. When there was no such work, then they did various

9 jobs in agriculture, jobs that had to do with cattle raising. All this

10 was happening in the territory of Kupres.

11 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm done with this document. Can the witness be

12 shown Exhibit P2401? It is document dated 8 of August, 1992. It is from

13 the 1st Krajina Brigade command, Sipovo command post.

14 Q. In the middle, we can read, "The mosques in Besnjevo, Sipovo, and

15 Pljeva were bombed and destroyed at 21st hours, 23rd hours, and 2 hours

16 respectively on 7 August, 1992."

17 Do you remember the fact that the mosques were destroyed?

18 A. I remember. I heard, and I felt, the explosion before the mosque

19 in Pljeva was destroyed. However, I didn't see who did that. I only know

20 the outcome, the results, on the following day.

21 Q. Can you describe very briefly how these mosques were destroyed.

22 What happened to the minaret?

23 A. The mosques were completely destroyed, including the minarets.

24 Many tombstones which are in the vicinity of the mosques were also

25 damaged.

Page 19104

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19105

1 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm done with this document. Can the witness be

2 shown Exhibit 2402? It is a document with the title: "Assessment of the

3 Security Situation in Sipovo Municipality." And it is not dated.

4 Ms. Baruch, do you have this? Yes.

5 Q. I want to direct your attention to the page B006-8776, which is

6 the second page in B/C/S, and also second page in English. Can you please

7 have a look at the second paragraph from the bottom. You had the

8 opportunity to read this document before, when I showed you it. And it

9 says, among others, "Enemy activities against the Serbian people and its

10 republic were orchestrated by extremists from the Party of Democratic

11 Action who were the leaders of the Muslim people in the municipality. The

12 most extreme among them were," and there is the list of people.

13 First, you can see the list of the people mentioned in this

14 document. Did you know any one of them?

15 A. Yes. I knew some of them, including Sakib Ribic, Kadrija Cuk,

16 Nedzad Dadovic -- and Nedzad Dadovic, Coric Dervis, Hodzic Zaim. These

17 are the people that I knew.

18 Q. In your opinion as you knew these people, were -- did you count

19 them as extremists?

20 A. No. I didn't consider them to be extremists, because I knew them

21 to be leading people in our municipality in the Party of Democratic

22 Action, which at the time was the ruling Muslim party. I believe that

23 that was the reason they were considered to be extremist. Kadrija Cuk was

24 a military expert and this is the reason I believe he was considered to be

25 dangerous to the Serbian republic.

Page 19106

1 Q. Do you know who was the President of the SDA?

2 A. The President of the SDA in Sipovo municipality was Sakib Ribic.

3 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to the page 3 in both

4 languages, and I'm talking about the middle paragraph, the longest one,

5 and if we go to the last two sentences, first the witness read this

6 document, and it's talking about incidents which happened in the

7 municipality, and these two sentences say: "Most of these crimes and

8 misdemeanors were committed by uniformed individuals in cooperation with

9 military organs, these persons were arrested and handed over to other

10 organs. However, after sometime, the said individuals were released and

11 they are again endangering the safety of persons and property."

12 Does it reflect accurately the situation as you know and as you

13 experienced? And please just answer yes or no.

14 MS. BARUCH: Excuse me, Your Honour, I have to object to that

15 because the people aren't named. Now, I understand that he can testify

16 from his own observations and experience, but if he does, can we please

17 have him give the names of those people he experienced were treated that

18 way?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go step by step, because I also more or less

20 would have suggested that you read more of the paragraph that we are

21 talking about, because first you refer to them as incidents but here we

22 are talking about crimes and misdemeanors. So I'm taking over for a

23 while, if you don't mind, Madam Richterova.

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: I appreciate it, thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: In this paragraph, sir, and follow me in the

Page 19107

1 document that you have in -- before you, which is in your own language, it

2 states that: "Over the past few months, the public security station has

3 been confronting major security problems. This relates primarily to a

4 significant number of serious crimes such as murders, robberies, armed

5 robberies, aggravated thefts, assaults on and resistance to authorised

6 officials, threats to security, causing public danger and other crimes as

7 well as a large number of misdemeanors, such as brawls, physical assaults

8 on others, endangering the safety of others, obstructing and resisting

9 police officers, and other offences endangering the safety of citizens."

10 I'll stop here for the time being. Would you agree with what is

11 stated in this report, that there was a significant number of such crimes

12 and misdemeanours as I have described to you by reading from this

13 paragraph?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I would agree with that.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's move to the next part. "Most

16 of these crimes and miss demeanors were committed by uniformed

17 individuals." Let's stop there now. Would you agree with that?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't say.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: You couldn't say.

20 "In cooperation with military organs, these persons were arrested

21 and handed over to other organs." Are you aware of any arrests having

22 taken place for allegedly having committed -- of persons allegedly having

23 committed such crimes and misdemeanors to start with? That's the first

24 part of my question. Do you recall any arrests?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

Page 19108

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And would you recall or would you agree to the

2 statement that we have here that after being arrested, they were handed

3 over to other organs? In other words, not processed by the public

4 security station themselves but handed over to other organs? Would you

5 agree with that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of that.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: And then the statement continues: "However, after

8 some time the said individuals were released." Would you agree with that?

9 Are you aware that those who were arrested were released some time after?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would agree with that, because I'm

11 aware of that.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And it continues, with the allegation that they are

13 again endangering the safety of persons and property. Would you agree

14 with that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you in a position to give us any names of such

17 persons who were arrested, released, and became dangerous or a menace once

18 more? Would you know any names?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can give you the name of Goran

20 Kalajdzija.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, Goran Kalajdzija was arrested at one

22 point and then released? Is that what you are telling us?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He was arrested for murder and

24 two attempted murders, and released some two months after his arrest.

25 After that, he continued with his activities which endangered the security

Page 19109

1 of Muslims.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Does that satisfy you both, Madam Richterova

3 and Madam Baruch?

4 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honour, that you went into these

5 details. I intended to do it at a later stage but I think we saved some

6 time.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So you have got ten minutes less now.

8 MS. RICHTEROVA: Because I have ten minutes less, can we go into

9 the private session.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Private session, please.

11 [Private session]

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 19110

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 19111

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 MS. RICHTEROVA: I have only two subjects which I want to cover.

11 Can the witness be shown Exhibit P2403.

12 Q. This document is official note Sipovo wartime department compiled

13 on 16 September, 1992. This is extensive description of a number of

14 incidents involving murder, arson, an explosion in Sipovo municipality

15 over the last month and half. You had the opportunity to have a look at

16 this document before. It talks about houses who were burned in the Sipovo

17 municipalities and you were also talking about this in your statement. I

18 can start: "In the municipality 20 to 30 houses were burned in the

19 village of Besnjevo." Then it talks about -- towards the end, fire to

20 three houses and stable of Muslim in the village of Cifluk.

21 Do you remember that houses were set on fire in respective of

22 villages within the municipality of Sipovo?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. And do you remember who were the owners of these houses and

25 stables who were set on fire?

Page 19112

1 A. They were Muslims.

2 Q. Did you witness, you personally, any incident when you saw someone

3 set a house or houses or stables on fire?

4 A. I was not an eyewitness to that. However, I saw frequently the

5 consequences of arson, or rather I saw the flames. The houses and

6 auxiliary facilities engulfed in flames.

7 Q. Apart from the village of Besnjevo, which I mentioned, and Cifluk,

8 do you remember any hamlets or villages in which the houses or stables

9 were set on fire?

10 A. Yes, I remember. [redacted]--

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, let's go into private session straight away.

12 [Private session]

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 19113

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 19113 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19114

1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. Yes, go ahead.

3 MS. RICHTEROVA: I want to show the witness -- I am done with this

4 exhibit and I want to show the witness Exhibit 2406.

5 Q. You mentioned in your statement and already today that you left

6 the municipality in February, 1993. How did you leave and where did you

7 meet to have some paperwork done to be allowed to leave?

8 A. All of the documents which we were required to have, and this

9 boils down to a voluntary relinquishment of property and the residence and

10 we also had to have a certificate that we have paid for all of the taxes,

11 this document had to be obtained in Sipovo municipality. Prior to our

12 departure, we had to go to Banja Luka and we had to show all of the listed

13 documents there in order to be able to leave in an organised convoy in the

14 direction of Travnik.

15 Q. In Banja Luka, do you remember -- do you know whom did you give

16 these documents to?

17 A. I know that there was some agency whose name I didn't know. The

18 lady organising the trip was called Perka. That's all I know.

19 Q. This person Perka, was she present when you -- when you boarded

20 the buses, and did she accompany you?

21 A. Yes. She was present and she was on the buses with us, and went

22 all the way until the separation line, which is in Travnik municipality,

23 in a place called Turbe.

24 Q. This document is really very long, and it shows some more than

25 1200 names, and the family of the witness is mentioned in this document as

Page 19115

1 well. There were -- were there more than one convoys in February 1993?

2 A. Yes. There were two convoys. One left on the 12th of February,

3 and the other one on the 26th of February.

4 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can the witness be shown Exhibit P2407.

5 Q. It is announcement which refers to the second convoy, and we know

6 that you already left. What I am interested in is in the statement in the

7 first paragraph: "Citizens who have expressed a wish to move out of

8 Sipovo municipality can travel in an organised convoy with the most

9 necessary personal luggage."

10 Do you still remember what you were allowed to take with you when

11 leaving the Sipovo municipality?

12 A. We were allowed to take what we could carry in our hands.

13 Q. And in the previous list, and all other lists which are in the

14 Sipovo binder, it is also under Exhibit P2409, and 2410, and we do not

15 need to show it to the witness, it says: "Lists of Muslims from the

16 Sipovo municipality area who voluntarily applied for resettlement."

17 Were you leaving voluntarily?

18 A. Yes. At that moment, we left voluntarily but only after all of

19 the incidents had happened, and after we were forced to do that, because

20 we didn't have a choice. We could not survive otherwise.

21 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Witness. I concluded my examination.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Richterova.

23 Madam Baruch, please?

24 Cross-examined by Mrs. Baruch:

25 MS. BARUCH: May it please the Court.

Page 19116

1 JUDGE AGIUS: If you prefer to come forward -- it's up to you.

2 I'm just offering you.

3 MS. BARUCH: With the permission of the Court I'll already stand

4 here because my stuff is already spread out.

5 Q. Good noon, it's not yet afternoon, Mr. Witness.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You have until Friday, Mrs. Baruch.

7 MS. BARUCH: Okay.

8 Q. My name is Barbara Baruch I am one of the Defence counsel in this

9 case. You and I have not previously had a chance to speak; isn't that

10 correct?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. But you have had a chance to speak with a representative of the

13 Prosecutor's Office; is that correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And Mr. Witness, my understanding is that in this jurisdiction,

16 they call that proofing when they speak with a witness. Did anybody --

17 did you speak with the Prosecution shortly before coming here to testify,

18 that is, within the last week?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And was that with Ms. Richterova, this Prosecutor who has been

21 questioning you?

22 A. Yes. And that was on Saturday.

23 Q. Thank you. And did you make any statements on Saturday that were

24 recorded in any way?

25 A. Yes.

Page 19117

1 MS. BARUCH: I would ask on the record for such statements, but I

2 notice that Ms. Richterova might have a response to that.

3 MS. RICHTEROVA: If I can make the explanation. The witness

4 noticed some errors which I recorded but then I went back to Rule 92 bis

5 statement and I realised that these changes have already been done. So I

6 of course didn't do exactly the same statement as was done before.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think we can proceed, Madam Baruch.

8 MS. BARUCH:

9 Q. Mr. Witness, when you were speaking with the Prosecution on

10 Saturday, I think they showed you several documents that you had not

11 previously seen before. That is some of the documents that the Prosecutor

12 referred to today while she was questioning you; is that right?

13 A. Yes. That is right.

14 Q. And for me, it appears that those documents, at least the ones she

15 referred to, were documents that purport to be from something called the

16 Crisis Staff. Was that one of the documents you were -- you saw on

17 Saturday?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And some minutes from what purported to be a Crisis Staff; is that

20 right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I want to commend you for your precision in answering questions.

23 I've noticed that you've been very honest about what you saw before and

24 what you had not seen, and we appreciate that. I'm sure if you were on

25 trial, or I was on trial, we would appreciate that.

Page 19118

1 Now, you said you had never heard of a Crisis Staff before, and I

2 assume it was before looking at those documents; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So anything you know about those documents come purely from the

5 documents themselves that had been shown to you; isn't that true?

6 A. True.

7 Q. Okay. Now, you ended -- Ms. Richterova ended her questioning of

8 you with regard to your leaving the area of Sipovo. Did you, before you

9 left Sipovo, notice that there were many Serbs, Serb refugees, coming into

10 Sipovo?

11 A. No, I didn't notice that.

12 Q. You didn't notice stranger -- people you had never seen before,

13 perhaps even living in Muslim homes that were not in use? You never saw

14 that?

15 A. No, I didn't.

16 Q. And?

17 MS. BARUCH: Your Honour, I don't know if this gets too definite

18 so perhaps we should go into private session.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session. Whenever you think

20 we should, Mrs. Baruch, just give me a hint and we will go into private

21 session.

22 [Private session]

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 19119

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Pages 19119 to 19146 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19147

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

15 1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

16 the 9th day of July, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25