Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19360

1 Monday, 14 July 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Could you call the case, please?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

7 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Mr. Brdjanin, can you follow in a

9 language that you can understand?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I

11 can.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take your chair. Ms. Korner,

13 appearances for the Prosecution?

14 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Ann Sutherland, assisted by Denise

15 Gustin, case manager, good morning, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. Appearances for Radoslav

17 Brdjanin?

18 MS. BARUCH: Good morning, Your Honours. Barbara Baruch, and

19 Mr. Vujic is lost and I don't know if he is -- has ever been in this

20 courtroom or could figure out how to come in. I apologise for that but he

21 will be joining me today and the reason that he didn't walk in with me is

22 the brand new copier for the Defence was broken and he had to copy a

23 document for the second witness.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Good morning to you. Madam

25 Registrar, I'm sorry to bother you with this but I need to be able to look

Page 19361

1 at the Defence bench, so if you could perhaps move -- I thank you. They

2 have to be somewhere so... But if -- are they right in front of someone's

3 face over there or not? Because I can't see from here. No? All right.

4 So let's start. We have first the cross-examination of the first witness.

5 Is it closed session or --

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, no, it's Ms. Sutherland's witness. I

7 don't know whether you want me to deal with some matters. First of all --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry, I forgot to ask you.

9 MS. KORNER: First of all is the timing this week. As a result

10 of - I think - the memo that you've had from VWS as well about the witness

11 who is also due to return for cross-examination on this Friday.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour will have seen the medical certificate.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I haven't, no.

15 MS. KORNER: It was attached to --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: No. That hasn't been brought to my attention. Have

17 you seen it.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I know nothing about it, actually, Ms. Korner.

20 MS. KORNER: Can I hand up -- we will get copies arranged but this

21 was given to us by VWS.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what we propose to do, at the moment, is

24 obviously he can't come back this Friday.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, obviously.

Page 19362

1 MS. KORNER: He's due -- without at the moment completely -- Your

2 Honour we will arrange for copies, or maybe the usher could arrange for

3 copies for -- no, usher, no, no, no, sorry. It gives the address and the

4 place where the witness resides. We will arrange a copy of the actual

5 certificate but to take out the address but if Your Honours want a copy

6 now the usher could you all of them.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness is medically unfit to travel to The

12 Hague again to give evidence this week. It doesn't say this week. It

13 says medically unfit to travel back and give evidence. Whether that will

14 be possible or not, I don't know.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we would hope that given he's due to go

16 on a summer holiday and we would hope that given time to get over this --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Maybe he would feel better.

18 MS. KORNER: That he would be feel better and we would ask Your

19 Honour to put it over, perhaps, to go with the experts at the beginning of

20 the Defence case in the hopes that we can --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner, I don't even need to consult my

22 colleagues on this. I can tell you yes, certainly.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that then leaves a gap for Friday for

24 this reason, in that he was originally due to come back for further

25 cross-examination. In addition to that, we had understood from what the

Page 19363

1 Defence had said about the intercept evidence that they wanted the two

2 Rule 92 witnesses brought for cross-examination. We understand that was

3 an error. They don't require them. They want a completely different

4 witness who we are not prepared to put in. If they want to --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I took it, actually; I kept my mouth shut

6 but it seemed to me there was this misunderstanding. They wanted to

7 cross-examine a witness that you did not mean to bring forward.

8 MS. KORNER: Exactly.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's how I understood it.

10 MS. KORNER: As a result of that, there are no witnesses

11 regrettably lined up for Friday because the next witness is not arriving

12 here until the Friday -- I'm sorry, the one that was due on the Monday is

13 only now booked to come in on the Friday.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

15 MS. KORNER: Accordingly, Your Honour, can I put it this way? I

16 know that on Thursday, there was a discussion as to whether if necessary

17 you would sit and not attend the whole plenary, there will be no necessity

18 for that now. The witness who is coming tomorrow is in any event a major

19 witness and so it's quite -- it will be possible for him to do Tuesday,

20 Wednesday and then the Friday in addition to that, Mr. Koumjian will be

21 ready to deal with legal argument on the admissibility.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I was going to suggest actually. That

23 Friday will be used at least in part to discuss or to debate the legality

24 issues.

25 MS. KORNER: Yes.

Page 19364

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Related to the intercepts.

2 MS. KORNER: Right.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. Koumjian should be prepared for that, okay?

4 MS. KORNER: Yes, he will, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So that applies to Mr. Ackerman as well.

6 MS. BARUCH: I'll certainly convey that to him.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks.

8 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, finally, the gentleman who had the

9 car accident --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

11 MS. KORNER: We have been given information that he -- his

12 secretary contacted us on the 10th, Thursday, I think, to say that

13 he -- the tests luckily have proved that he had nothing worse than a

14 broken arm. He was going home on the Friday and then going to Africa on

15 Saturday. If Your Honours are agreeable, would it be possible for him to

16 testify on Thursday the 28th of August, and Friday, the 29th, if need be?

17 Which gives Mr. Ackerman further time as well for --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem with us.

19 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. Those are just the matters I

20 wish to deal with.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Is he testifying on two days?

22 MS. KORNER: He can -- we had him down for one. If necessary he

23 can --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Keep him for one. He's got a written report, no, I

25 suppose.

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Page 19366

1 MS. KORNER: No, he hasn't.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: No?

3 MS. KORNER: No.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought he was coming over with a written report.

5 MS. KORNER: I'm afraid not.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I see.

7 MS. KORNER: He's made a statement but there is no written report.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Anyway, see if we could limit it to one day.

9 It would be better I suppose than two days, what days would those be.

10 MS. KORNER: Thursday the 28th and if necessary, Friday, the

11 29th. I agree, I hope we could finish him within the day.

12 MS. BARUCH: Do I understand this correctly, then, that witness

13 plus Friday's witness, plus two cross-examinations that hadn't been done I

14 think of experts all have to be -- the wrap-up in August? No?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I gave Mr. Ackerman the choice to -- the idea

16 was to have the cross-examination of the two expert witnesses before

17 Mr. Ackerman starts the Defence case, so we are talking of October -- 6th

18 October is when supposedly the Defence case would start. So the idea was

19 the first two days or three days or - I don't know - would be dedicated to

20 the cross-examination of the expert witnesses. I gave Mr. Ackerman the

21 choice if he prefers to finish those in the last week of August, when

22 we'll be here anyway, he can do that. But it's up to him. I mean, he

23 only needs to liaise with Ms. Korner so that these individuals are present

24 here in The Hague. That's number 1. The gentleman who had the car

25 accident in (Redacted) or wherever he had it - will be coming over 28th,

Page 19367

1 29th of August, right? And he will be cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman on

2 that occasion. Whether it will be one day or two days, I don't know.

3 It's up to -- more or less up to you. Maybe we need to redact --

4 MS. KORNER: Ms. Sutherland --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I know, because I -- I have got that benefit of

6 following --

7 MS. KORNER: Ms. Sutherland as you know is very careful about

8 these matters.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact, redact, please, Ms. Chuqing, all right?

10 And then there is this guy we are talking about. We don't know

11 actually whether he will be in a position to come over again. However,

12 the suggestion of Ms. Korner, if I read her well, is that he will come

13 forward if at all in October and not the end of August. So that will give

14 him enough time to recover.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's absolutely right.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I understood you any way.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the last matter -- I'm sorry, I didn't

18 have a note of that, is the question of -- can I just go into private

19 session for a moment.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while, please.

21 [Private session]

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 19368

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Druzic and welcome back.

9 You know the procedure. Please take the text of the solemn declaration

10 and kindly repeat your undertaking to testify the truth. Go ahead.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 WITNESS: MIDHO DRUZIC [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. Thank you. Please take a chair.

16 Madam Baruch, I don't know -- you weren't present when he gave

17 evidence, no? He gave evidence, we would have finished with him had

18 things not really happened the way they happened that day and so it's now

19 your turn to cross-examine the witness.

20 MS. BARUCH: Thank you, may it please the Court.

21 Cross-examined by Ms. Baruch:

22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Druzic. My name is Barbara Baruch and I

23 represent the defendant in this case. You have not seen me before because

24 the other attorney has not returned to this country. So, I welcome you

25 back and I will ask you some questions, okay?

Page 19369

1 Have you spoken with anybody with regard to your previous

2 testimony in this case?

3 A. No. There was no need to.

4 Q. Okay. And you again also haven't spoken with the Prosecutor

5 except for that small matter that the Court permitted to you speak about

6 last time? Is that right?

7 A. No. That's right. This -- this morning I saw the Prosecutor.

8 Q. And did you have a conversation this morning with the Prosecutor?

9 A. No.

10 Q. I understand that you were an assemblyman back in 1990 from

11 Petrovac out of the SDA party. Are you an assemblyman at the current

12 time?

13 A. No, I'm not.

14 Q. And I believe that at one point you were president of the board of

15 the commissariat of the Islamic community in Bosanski Petrovac; is that

16 correct?

17 A. That's true. From 1988 until 1997, the president of the Islamic

18 community.

19 Q. And do you have a position in that community today, aside

20 from -- that's not the Presidency? For example, are you on the board?

21 A. I am the president of the Dzemat. The Dzemat is composed of

22 methods.

23 Q. That is Dzemat is a part of that Islamic community; is that right?

24 A. Yes, it's part of the Medzlis.

25 Q. You were asked previously about the population of Bosanski

Page 19370

1 Petrovac, and I think you said you did not know that; is that correct?

2 A. Well, as far as the percentage is concerned, those who still live

3 in Bosanski Petrovac, the respective percentages of Muslims, Serbs and

4 Croats, I don't know at the time. But I do know that many Serbs returned

5 to the Bosanski Petrovac area. They returned to their homes.

6 Q. Is it correct that at the present time the majority of the

7 citizens of that municipality are Muslim?

8 A. Currently, upon their return, I think probably the Serbs are in

9 the majority. Because many people returned to the villages and many of

10 them were Serbs. Tenje Olsik [phoen], Krlici [phoen], Vertoci, Bravsko,

11 Smoljana.

12 Q. So your testimony is today you believe once more that the majority

13 of the population is Serb in Bosanski Petrovac?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Between -- you know, you used the word upon their

16 return. Are you talking about people, Serbs, who have already returned to

17 Bosanski Petrovac?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Do you know a person named Isnam Talic?

20 A. I don't think I've understood the name, I apologise.

21 Q. Isnam Talic.

22 A. No. I'm sorry.

23 Q. I'm wondering if you are aware of a movement to change the name of

24 the town from Bosanski Petrovac to something else since 1996?

25 A. I don't know. At that time, I was staying in Germany as a

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Page 19372

1 refugee.

2 Q. I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear. Are you aware of a movement to

3 change the name of the town since after the war was over to a Bosnian name

4 as opposed to a name that has Petrovac in it?

5 A. I know about Bosanski Petrovac and I'm pushing 50. We did not

6 have Talic as a last name. Isnam Talic that's probably someone's first

7 and last name. As far as my memory goes back, and the memory of my

8 family, Bosanski Petrovac was always there but no Talics were ever present

9 there.

10 Q. Okay. I switched the subject on you. I should have indicated

11 that to you. Are you aware of anybody involved in a movement to change

12 the name of Bosanski Petrovac to a name that sounds more Bosnian?

13 A. Again, after I left the camp on the 3rd of November, 1992, until

14 the 9th of April, 1997, I spent this whole period of time in Germany. I

15 am not familiar with any attempts to change the name.

16 Q. Okay. My understanding is that before the war, there were four

17 mosques in Bosanski Petrovac, two in town and one in Bijela and one in

18 Rasinovac. I don't know if I said the names correctly but would you agree

19 that before the war those were the number of mosques in Bosanski Petrovac?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And I believe that before the war, there were 12 Orthodox churches

22 in Bosanski Petrovac. Would you agree, if not with the exact number,

23 approximately that?

24 A. I'm not aware of their exact number. I know there were some but I

25 don't know their number.

Page 19373

1 Q. Are you aware that today there are five mosques in Petrovac?

2 A. Yes, I am.

3 Q. And there is only one Orthodox church; is that right?

4 A. In the town itself, yes. And it used to be there before the war.

5 Q. And none others that you know of in the municipality; is that

6 correct? Only one.

7 A. I must tell the Defence the following: You probably are not aware

8 of this but the church was there in the village of Krnjavusa and it has

9 been functioning all the time. I believe that they are looking for

10 sponsors to get the churches throughout the remaining villages repaired as

11 well.

12 Q. Mr. Druzic, my question went to the fact that I believe there were

13 12 orthodox churches in the town -- in the municipality before the war and

14 now there is only one, regardless of whether it used to be there or did

15 not used to be there. Is that your understanding? Do you only know of

16 one orthodox church now?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: In the town or --

18 MS. BARUCH: In the municipality.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Where in the municipality?

20 MS. BARUCH: In the municipality.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: In the municipality. Yes, Ms. Sutherland?

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, what's the relevance of this line of

23 questioning?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I can see the relevance actually. But I don't

25 think you need to answer. I can -- there is a relevance. I mean, how

Page 19374

1 important it is, that's another matter but -- yes, go ahead. Try to

2 answer the question, please. If you know, obviously, I mean.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The town, there is one church and it

4 was there before the war. Other churches were in the villages, in the

5 village of Krnjavusa where the largest number of Serb returnees -- which

6 received the largest number of Serb returnees. The church has been put

7 together, redone, and they hold services there, and I'm really surprised

8 that you don't know that.

9 MS. BARUCH:

10 Q. Well, we only --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mrs. Baruch doesn't travel to the area. So try to

12 avoid making comments like that, all right? The question was this: It

13 was put to you that where 12 orthodox churches in the municipality before

14 the war and now there is only one. What is your answer? Is it -- is this

15 suggestion correct or not? Or you don't know?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't go around villages

17 much and in the town, I see the church that I passed by every day and it's

18 active and in the village of Krnjavusa because I had to go to a saw mill

19 there and I could see that the church had been repaired and that it

20 is -- that it can function normally.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And with regard to any other churches, you don't

22 know?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't go around villages.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So, Ms. Baruch, please.

25 MS. BARUCH: Yes.

Page 19375

1 Q. Did you ever at any time fight with the BiH forces in the area of

2 Petrovac municipality?

3 A. How could I when I was locked up as of the 15th of June, 1992?

4 Q. My question, Mr. Druzic, was whether you had -- I'm going to

5 accept your answer as no. Are you aware that about 10 per cent of the

6 Petrovac population fought with the army of the BiH? Are you aware of

7 that?

8 A. I'm not.

9 Q. Okay. The reason I put that to you is because I think you're very

10 much aware of what goes on in the Muslim community in Petrovac and so my

11 question was: Were you aware that 10 per cent of the Muslim community had

12 been fighting with the army of the BiH?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already answered the question. He's told you

14 no.

15 MS. BARUCH: Okay.

16 Q. Did you ever -- did the SDA continue to hold meetings after the

17 spring of 1992?

18 A. No.

19 Q. This person, Kecman, who you heard speak at a rally, was he in

20 your mind the biggest incitement to discord in your area of Petrovac?

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, these questions have already been

22 put by Mr. Cunningham on page 16834.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't confirm that. I don't remember.

24 MS. BARUCH: I know that he talked about Mr. Kecman's speech, but

25 I'm trying to find out if that speech by Kecman and Kecman himself was the

Page 19376

1 biggest incitement to discord in the Petrovac area, municipality, back in

2 1992.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the Presiding Judge.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: What date was that, Ms. Sutherland?

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: 2nd of June, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: 6th of June?

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: 2nd of June. The question was in relation to the

8 remarks made by Mr. Kecman in addition to it being an insult. "Did you

9 see it as a threat to you as a Bosniak" and then the witness answered --

10 MS. BARUCH: Let me explain, Your Honours. That is not the

11 subject of my question. My question is whether with Kecman, who was from

12 that general area, was the biggest incitement to discord in the area of

13 Petrovac.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't have -- I don't have the 2nd of June

15 transcript here. It must have been in another courtroom.

16 MS. BARUCH:

17 Q. Before you were incarcerated would you agree that Mr. Kecman was

18 the biggest inciter of discord in the Petrovac area?

19 A. No. Other things had begun to happen. What Kecman said, he said

20 at a party promotion, when there were visitors from Belgrade and Stara

21 Basala [phoen]. But in 1992, it was already on its way and I was detained

22 on the 15th of June, 1992, and many things happened before that date,

23 before the 15th of June.

24 Q. You talked about radio stations during your prior testimony.

25 Could you receive any radio broadcasts from outside of the territory of

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Page 19378

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, outside of the Petrovac area?

2 A. I didn't follow television and radio much. Well, I listened to

3 the radio more. There was more switched on to radio Petrovac when they

4 raised the word Bosanski and Milan Latinovic was the editor of the

5 programme. He used to teach at my elementary school and he started the

6 ethnic hatred against Bosniaks. They started with nationalistic songs and

7 at that time it was really impossible to listen to it because it was clear

8 from that that a major evil lay in store for Bosniaks.

9 Q. Okay. You have told us then about Kecman and Latinovic who you

10 said were inciting people but my question went to radio broadcasts. Were

11 you able to receive -- were the people in Petrovac able to receive radio

12 transmissions from Bihac, for example?

13 A. No.

14 Q. How about from parts of Croatia? Were they able to receive it

15 from there?

16 A. I've just told you that I switched on seldom because I was working

17 and I was moving about a great deal.

18 Q. Okay. Maybe I'm confused. I thought that you were not working

19 since March of 1992, but again, the reason that I'm asking you these

20 questions, Mr. Druzic, is I'm trying to find out if, like today, I can

21 receive AM broadcasts and FM broadcasts, for example, from England while

22 I'm in Holland and my question to you was whether or not you knew if your

23 population in Petrovac could receive outside radio broadcasts and I think

24 what you just told me is that you never listened; is that right?

25 A. I shall tell you clearly. For a while, for a long time, one could

Page 19379

1 watch the television of Bosnia-Herzegovina and then our transmitters were

2 destroyed and all the television and radio were then centred on Banja

3 Luka, and as regards the coverage by the transmitter, all television, one

4 could -- one could watch or listen only to those radio stations which were

5 covered by Banja Luka, because the transmitter that we had was destroyed.

6 Q. So your testimony to this Court is that because the television

7 transmitter was turned so that only Banja Luka television could be seen,

8 that also affected radio waves like FM and AM radio stations from other

9 countries? Is that your testimony? Or did you just not listen to radio

10 at all?

11 A. Well, I keep repeating, I didn't listen to the radio much and I

12 didn't really watch television much.

13 Q. Okay. Did you, after you left the former Yugoslavia, did you give

14 money or information regarding the situation in Petrovac to anyone who you

15 considered friendly to or connected to the Bosnian armed forces or the

16 SDA?

17 A. I didn't quite understand what you mean, Madam.

18 Q. Okay.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't blame him. I suppose you better divide it,

20 separate the two issues because mixing giving money or information is a

21 little bit confusing for the witness, for sure.

22 MS. BARUCH: Thank you for pointing that out.

23 Q. Some of the refugees I think were active in collecting money to

24 support Bosnian causes once they left the territory of the former

25 Yugoslavia. Were you involved in that?

Page 19380

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, maybe -- involved in collecting money or

2 involved as a contributor?

3 MS. BARUCH: Involved in collecting money.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Were you collecting money from amongst

5 Bosniaks to hand over to the Bosnian armed forces or the SDA?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, naturally, when I came out,

7 the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina flared up and naturally Muslims and Bosniaks

8 were in closed areas where they could not receive anything, so quite

9 naturally, not only in the place where I was in Germany but the world

10 over, there were clubs which organised raising of funds, of aid for people

11 who were in Bosnia-Herzegovina under those circumstances.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That answers your question. Do you want to

13 put a further question on information or not?

14 MS. BARUCH: Yes, I do.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Proceed.

16 MS. BARUCH:

17 Q. With regard to information that you may have known about the place

18 you grew up, Bosanski Petrovac, did you also convey information about that

19 area to Bosnian forces, once you left the territory of the former

20 Yugoslavia?

21 A. Well, say, my family was in Bihac by and large, and between 1992

22 and 1995, as you -- you know what kind of communications were with Bihac,

23 nothing could be done, so what contacts are we talking about? But

24 nevertheless, somehow one managed to send something, to one's kin or some

25 people living in those areas, something.

Page 19381

1 Q. I'm talking about information that would be assisting the BiH

2 forces. Were you able to convey such information about Petrovac to people

3 who could use such information for tactical reasons?

4 A. I don't know what kind of information could I give them, since I

5 wasn't with the BH Army, since in 1993 I was directly transferred by the

6 UNHCR to Switzerland and then on to Germany.

7 Q. Of course. I have not disputed that. We all understand that.

8 And the question goes to you having grown up in Bosanski Petrovac were

9 very familiar with the layout of the area, perhaps where reservists in the

10 past had trained, with the structure of the government, where the

11 municipal building was. Did you ever convey information like that, not

12 just that information but information like that, to people whom you knew

13 could use it for a tactical advantage in the ongoing war?

14 A. At that time, in wartime, my Petrovac friends were already in

15 Bihac and in Travnik to which they fled on the 24th of September, 1992 so

16 there were already people who had joined the BH army and I don't know why

17 would I have to convey anything to them when my Petrovac friends were

18 already incorporated in the BH Army.

19 Q. I'm going to take that as your answer under oath, was no, you

20 didn't do that. Would you agree with that? No, you didn't convey

21 information.

22 A. Why, of course. There was no need for it. People were already

23 in.

24 Q. Okay. I saw -- you know there are a lot of newspaper articles and

25 Internet articles about the war and I saw something that suggested that

Page 19382

1 people from Bihac liberated Petrovac along with some 20 Bosniaks from

2 Petrovac who fought in the 3rd and 7th corps and especially in the 3rd and

3 17th Brigades. Do you know anything about that?

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I know this is Ms. Sutherland's witness

5 but really, Your Honour, we have a fairly tight schedule. What is the

6 relevance of the events of 1995 to what happened in 1992?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: What is the relevance, Ms. Baruch?

8 MS. BARUCH: I'm talking about 1995, Your Honour and if he was

9 going to tell me --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But you're talking about the liberation of Bosanski

11 Petrovac and that did not occur before 1995, for sure.

12 MS. BARUCH:

13 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Druzic?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 MS. BARUCH: The basis, I indicated, was an internet article that

17 I saw that had the date 1992, Your Honour so I'm wrong.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: This witness is here again because Mr. Cunningham

19 had about five minutes, if I remember well, or ten minutes, left for his

20 cross-examination.

21 MS. BARUCH: I agree.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Unfortunately things went haywire that day and so

23 and we have the next witness in line.

24 MS. BARUCH: I'm not going to interfere with that, Your Honour. I

25 am finished with my questions to this witness.

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Page 19384

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thanks. So Mr. Druzic, thanks

2 for being patient with us and being cooperative, for having come again. I

3 know this was unfortunate, indeed, that you had to come back. Things went

4 wrong last time, as you know, and we needed you to come back, we couldn't

5 finish with you on that occasion. So once more I thank you on behalf of

6 everyone and I wish you a safe journey back home. Thank you. Madam usher

7 will escort you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: The next witness is also without any protective

11 measures.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, and he will be giving evidence in

13 English. He speaks perfect English. I've told him that if he has any

14 problems with the -- any words then of course he can say it in the Bosnian

15 language and then it will be interpreted but for the majority, I think it

16 will be in English.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That makes things easier.

18 MS. BARUCH: I'm sorry, I didn't understand, you said yes he is,

19 Ms. Korner -- you mean -- yes, he is not protected.

20 MS. KORNER: He's not a protected witness, no. I understood

21 Mr. Ackerman was going to cross-examine this witness.

22 MS. BARUCH: If this witness is --

23 MS. KORNER: Mr. Pasic.

24 MS. BARUCH: Mr. Pasic, it's me.

25 MS. KORNER: It is you.

Page 19385

1 JUDGE AGIUS: 7.89. When is Mr. Cunningham coming back, do you

2 know?

3 MS. BARUCH: Tuesday, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Tuesday, that's tomorrow, in other words?

5 MS. BARUCH: Yes, but I believe Mr. Ackerman is taking the witness

6 tomorrow.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I just wanted to make sure there is nothing wrong

8 with either of them. Basically it's all right.

9 Who is leading this witness, Ms. Korner?

10 MS. KORNER: I am, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, bring him in, please.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Pasic. Welcome to this Tribunal.

14 You are about to start giving evidence. Before you do so, our Rules

15 require that you enter a solemn declaration equivalent to an oath that in

16 the course of your testimony you will be speaking the truth. The text is

17 contained in a piece of paper that Madam usher is handing to you. Please

18 read it out aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

19 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

20 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 WITNESS: ELVEDIN PASIC

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a chair. I understand you

23 have opted to testify in the English language.

24 THE WITNESS: Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Which makes things easier for everyone. If at any

Page 19386

1 time you get stuck with any word and you've got difficulties, you can go

2 back to your own language. There are interpreters following what you're

3 saying in any case, so any word that you may use from your own language

4 will be immediately interpreted into English and into French so you don't

5 need to bother about that. Ms. Korner will ask you a series of questions

6 put a series of questions to you first and then she will be followed by

7 Madam Baruch who is appearing for Mr. Brdjanin, who is the accused in this

8 case. Ms. Korner.

9 Examined by Ms. Korner:

10 Q. Mr. Pasic, is your name Elvedin Pasic?

11 A. Yes, ma'am.

12 Q. One thing I forgot to warn you about yesterday is because we are

13 both going to be speaking English, it's important that there is a pause

14 between you answering my question and when you've answered it, me asking

15 the next so the interpreters can catch up. And you'll find that I'm the

16 worst offender in that respect.

17 Mr. Pasic, were you born on the 3rd of June, 1978, in Hrvacani, in

18 Kotor Varos?

19 A. Yes, ma'am.

20 Q. So at the time we are going to deal with the events of between

21 June and November of 1992, you would have been 13, just 14; is that

22 correct?

23 A. That's correct, ma'am.

24 Q. Now, I want to ask you first of all, please, to look at a map of

25 Kotor Varos, which is Exhibit P2120. Just put that on the ELMO. Usher,

Page 19387

1 you're going to have to put it slightly -- can we go? Yes. Can you

2 just -- I think we can all see it but we see Kotor Varos and is Hrvacani

3 to the right of Kotor Varos town as we look at it, the intervening village

4 being shown as Cirkino Brdo?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And roughly how far?

7 THE INTERPRETER: We are sorry but the interpreters cannot hear

8 the witness at all. Could the witness speak up, please?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, usher we need to put -- either bring the

10 witness forward or move the microphones nearer to him.

11 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am, I see Hrvacani on the right of Kotor

12 Varos.

13 MS. KORNER:

14 Q. And how far roughly, in terms of distance was it from the centre

15 of Kotor Varos?

16 A. I'd say 13 kilometres.

17 Q. All right. In your village, roughly how many houses were there?

18 A. 100 houses, ma'am.

19 Q. And although it's not marked, I don't think, on the map, was there

20 a village called Tepici very close to your village?

21 A. Yes, ma'am.

22 Q. Was Hrvacani, as we can see on the map, a Muslim village?

23 A. That is correct, ma'am.

24 Q. And does it follow, therefore, and I should have asked you that

25 earlier, that you yourself were a Muslim by nationality -- are a Muslim by

Page 19388

1 nationality?

2 A. Yes, I am.

3 Q. Now, what about Tepici? What was the nationality of the

4 inhabitants of that village?

5 A. 100 per cent Serbs.

6 Q. And then was there another village called Savici?

7 A. Yes, ma'am.

8 Q. And where was that located, in terms of your village?

9 A. East side of Hrvacani, which is on the map -- should be on the

10 right side.

11 Q. And what about the nationality of those inhabitants?

12 A. Those were all 100 per cent Serbs.

13 Q. So you had a Serb village to the east, and Tepici was where in

14 relation to --

15 A. North.

16 Q. All right. And were they the same size as your village or smaller

17 or bigger?

18 A. Tepici was much smaller and Savici, not as big as Hrvacani but

19 bigger than Tepici so --

20 Q. All right. That's all I think we need look at for the moment at

21 the map save we may as well just for a moment identify two other places

22 that we are going to hear about, three. First of all, Dabovci. Was that

23 a village that you were familiar with or became familiar with?

24 A. That is correct, ma'am.

25 Q. And did you have any relatives living in that village?

Page 19389

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Page 19390

1 A. Yes, I had. I had my sister, who was married to her husband.

2 Q. All right. And we can see then also Vrbanjci and then Vecici done

3 below your --

4 A. Yes, ma'am.

5 Q. All right. Thank you, yes, you can put the map away now.

6 Now, the school that you attended, where was that?

7 A. It was located five kilometres from Hrvacani and in Vrbanjci.

8 Q. Was that a mixed school, in other words Serbs, Muslims and were

9 there any Croats there?

10 A. That is correct, ma'am. It was mixed: Serbs, Muslims and Croats

11 together.

12 Q. And did you have friends in all ethnicities, all nationalities?

13 A. Yes, ma'am.

14 Q. Now, I think as far as your family was concerned, before the war

15 began, was your father working in Sarajevo?

16 A. That is correct, ma'am.

17 Q. But visited you on weekends?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. And did you have an older brother, Ahmedin.

20 A. Yes, I had.

21 Q. And the sister who you described was married and living in

22 Dabovci. Was that Hamida?

23 A. Correct, ma'am.

24 Q. In those days, what was her married name?

25 A. Hamida -- I don't remember the last name.

Page 19391

1 Q. All right, don't worry. If we can just jump ahead I think it's

2 right that you're going to describe to us her husband was killed and she

3 has since remarried; is that correct?

4 A. That's correct, ma'am.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, did you notice a change taking place in the

6 general situation in your area around May of 1992?

7 A. Yes, ma'am.

8 Q. And can you describe what first struck you?

9 A. Sure. When I was attending the 7th grade, almost at the end of

10 the school year, we noticed on several army movements which was taking

11 place from -- army coming from Kotor Varos, moving towards Doboj and they

12 were definitely JNA members. I remember one day I was standing waiting

13 for our bus and the convoy was approximately 30 vehicles and the soldiers

14 there were waving at us, point 3, the symbol, and we -- that was the first

15 time we noticed a large movement, and we asked our teachers and friends

16 what's going on, and they told us not to worry about it because it's just

17 an activity and exercise from side of JNA.

18 Q. Right. Now, those you could tell were JNA members. How were you

19 able to say that?

20 A. Because they were specially vehicles, they were marked by JNA and

21 also the soldiers were wearing regular olive-green, whatever, uniforms,

22 marked JNA. Some of them were camouflage uniforms.

23 Q. Right. What about your neighbouring Serbs? Did you notice

24 anything about them and the way they were dressing?

25 A. Yes. We know -- first time I noticed it, drastic changes and

Page 19392

1 behaviour, our neighbours, was the second day of our holiday called Bajram

2 when we noticed our neighbouring Serbs from Tepici and Savici were digging

3 trenches, and some of them from Novakovo Brdo -- we noticed two tanks were

4 pointing at our village.

5 Q. Before we get on to what happened on the Bajram holiday, before

6 you noticed that they were digging trenches and you saw these tanks, you

7 described the JNA convoy. Was anybody outside the JNA wearing uniforms?

8 The official JNA, I should say.

9 A. I don't remember, ma'am. All I know is just they were JNA

10 uniforms and also some camouflage uniforms too.

11 Q. All right. Now, let's move to the Baj -- second day of the Bajram

12 holiday.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't think there is going to be any

14 dispute about that, we intend to put in a document on the religious

15 holidays but we've heard evidence it was June 11 was the first day of the

16 Bajram holiday but we are proposing to put a document in.

17 Q. On the second day of that holiday you say you noticed that

18 trenches were being dug by the Serbs in Tepici and Savici and that you

19 noticed two tanks. Where did you see the tanks?

20 A. They were located above Dabovci which Novakovo Brdo faced south

21 from Hrvacani -- faced Hrvacani and I could see clearly because part of my

22 house -- my house was located south -- southwest of Hrvacani it was a

23 straight to the -- faced to the Novakovo Brdo and it was clearly and easy

24 to see Novakovo Brdo.

25 Q. As a result of seeing these things did anybody from your village

Page 19393

1 go to investigate?

2 A. Yes, ma'am.

3 Q. And who was that?

4 A. Two well-known and rich -- richest people in Hrvacani called Muho

5 and Murat Dugonjic. After seeing all this movement they wanted to talk to

6 your neighbours in Savici and Tepici and they talked to him in my middle

7 school which was located in between Tepici and Savici. So they asked

8 them, you know, what is all this movement and what is all this digging

9 trenches going -- why is this going on? And they told us not to worry

10 because we were neighbours, it's just a JNA exercise.

11 Q. Did any Serbs arrive in your village at all?

12 A. Yes, ma'am.

13 Q. And in what manner?

14 A. One day we were sitting in the middle of our village, which was

15 located underneath of a mosque and that's where all men and women,

16 children, we normally meet, have fun, it was approximately around noon

17 when five armed -- well-armed soldiers approached from our south side.

18 They were just walking with some of them JNA uniforms -- JNA uniforms and

19 camouflage uniforms, wearing automatic weapons. They were just passing by

20 and looking at the houses, and as a matter of fact, they did said they

21 greeted -- they said hello to us when they were approaching us, nothing

22 else.

23 Q. Did you know any -- did you recognise any of them?

24 A. One person, Boro Tepic, and nobody else.

25 Q. And where did he come from?

Page 19394

1 A. I guess he came from Tepici but normally they came from the

2 direction from Vrbanjci. They were walking.

3 Q. All right. Now, what effect did that have on the people in your

4 village?

5 A. The people -- affect because that point we knew that something is

6 going to happen, and this actually meant war.

7 Q. And why did you think that? Or what was it about the visit of

8 these soldiers?

9 A. Well, we heard that these five soldiers had a bet with some other

10 soldiers that they going to walk through the Hrvacani and -- with armed

11 weapons and everything, so that, you know, something happens that could

12 cause a war.

13 Q. All right. As a result of the tanks that you had seen and the

14 trenches and these soldiers walking through your village, what did the

15 villagers in your village decide to do?

16 A. Well, first of all, we knew that there was no options but to get

17 prepared for this, because obviously we tried to contact our families,

18 like I wanted to -- I tried to contact my sister, the telephone lines,

19 they were mixed up, later on they were disconnected, and we just prayed to

20 God and we were waiting to see what's going to happen.

21 Q. Were you present at any kind of meeting where the defence of

22 Hrvacani was discussed?

23 A. I don't know about meetings but I'll say that our tradition during

24 the holiday is to -- for our hodza, to walk every house and just to sit

25 and talk to the -- eat lunch, that's our celebration. But second day of

Page 19395

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Page 19396

1 Bajram, hodza came to our house and our house was quite a big house. A

2 lot of people came, I'd say, but only men came to the house and they were

3 sitting, you know, that's a tradition and they were discussing, I remember

4 I was in the room when they were discussing what we going to ask -- asking

5 question, what we going to do because we see our neighbours digging

6 trenches and obviously this is going to be -- this is it. And at that

7 moment, they start talking and my father told me to leave the room.

8 Don't know what they were talking about.

9 Q. All right. Were you ever aware of any kind of order, either being

10 issued over the radio or by police officers coming to the village, that

11 the people in your village should surrender their hunting rifles?

12 A. No, ma'am.

13 Q. Now, your brother Ahmedin, where was he at this period?

14 A. At this period, he was attending military academy at Belgrade, and

15 I believe that night he came actually we got surprised because he came

16 from Belgrade, you know, in all this mess, he came -- he came back.

17 Q. Now, can we come, please, to the night of the second day of your

18 holiday, around the 13th of June? Did you hear anything coming from the

19 direction of Tepici?

20 A. Yes, ma'am. We heard soldier using megaphones, I don't know what

21 else but we could hear him talking and saying, [Interpretation] "Happy

22 Bajram, balija, we will be there soon. And Muho and Murat brew us a

23 coffee and get some baklava ready for us, traditional cake. We will be

24 there soon."

25 Q. And they were using -- saying that through megaphones, were they?

Page 19397

1 A. [In English] Yes, ma'am.

2 Q. Did they name anybody from your village in particular?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: He just --

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I just mentioned Muho and Murat.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: They didn't show up in the transcript but he did

7 mention the two names that we find also in his statement.

8 MS. KORNER: All right. Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And I suppose these were two very well known persons

10 in the village, and they were quite rich too, no?

11 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, I suppose, Ms. Korner, I think we

13 better pronounce the names, because they didn't make it. Murat and

14 Muho Dugonjic.

15 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

16 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. How long did this use of the megaphone go on for?

18 A. I would say 15 to 30 minutes.

19 Q. And then what happened?

20 A. Then bombing and shelling started.

21 Q. Before the bombing and the shelling started, using the megaphones,

22 did these people give any warning that the village was about to be

23 shelled?

24 A. I don't remember, ma'am.

25 Q. Do you remember whether there were any ultimatums given, in other

Page 19398

1 words surrender yourselves or the village will be shelled?

2 A. No, ma'am.

3 Q. Were there women and children, like yourself and younger, in the

4 village at the time?

5 A. Yes, ma'am.

6 Q. Perhaps I can just ask you this: Did the holiday mean that

7 families tried to get together for that holiday?

8 A. That is correct, ma'am.

9 Q. And so had the -- did people come back to the village who might

10 otherwise not have been there?

11 A. That is correct, ma'am.

12 Q. All right. Now, what happened when the shelling started?

13 A. I was in a house located to my left, my cousin, we were down in

14 the basement when the shelling and bombing started. I don't know at that

15 moment where my father was and my brother, but I know for a fact that he

16 came early -- that whole night was horrible, bombing and shelling going

17 on, but early in the morning he came back and he knocked at the window and

18 told us to leave, because neighbouring houses they were burning from

19 shelling and that we were the only ones left in the -- actually in the

20 village of Hrvacani.

21 Q. So by the time he came to find you, he was telling you that

22 everybody else had left?

23 A. That is correct, ma'am.

24 Q. And did you and your brother and your mother then leave or your

25 cousin? I'm sorry, you said, I think, your cousin.

Page 19399

1 A. That's correct, ma'am.

2 Q. And when you left, was the village deserted?

3 A. I'd say 98 per cent. Some people left, old people like Ahmedin

4 left in the Hrvacani and I know for a fact that Ibro Dugonjic who was a

5 religious man, he certainly stayed there in the Hrvacani because he didn't

6 want to leave his house, but, yeah, 98 per cent of people left for

7 Plitska.

8 Q. And Plitska was how close?

9 A. I'd say one to two kilometres.

10 Q. And what nationality were the inhabitants of Plitska?

11 A. 100 per cent Croats.

12 Q. Now, as you left your village, was the shelling still going on?

13 A. Yes, ma'am.

14 Q. Was there any kind of shooting going on?

15 A. Yes, ma'am.

16 Q. From whereabouts?

17 A. Okay. When we were about to leave our -- we were down in a low --

18 in between two regions, between Plitska and Hrvacani, when we were trying

19 to cross one open area and we had snipers shooting from Novakovo Brdo and

20 Tepici at us, and we had to crawl up on the hill in open space where we

21 got shot from Novakovo Brdo and Tepici by the snipers.

22 Q. Okay. Once you'd got away from your village, what happened to the

23 men? For example your father and your brother?

24 A. My brother and my father, we met them halfway distance to Plitska.

25 They were running like with the children and civilians, but when we got to

Page 19400

1 Plitska, they disappeared. As a matter of fact, I think they went with --

2 all the men gathered together and they went somewhere.

3 Q. At that stage, did you know where they were going?

4 A. No, ma'am.

5 Q. All right. Now, you've told us that some people stayed behind in

6 Hrvacani, including a Mr. Ismet Dugonjic, who was an elderly man and

7 religious. Did you discover later what happened to them?

8 A. Yes, ma'am. They all got killed.

9 Q. And when did you discover this?

10 A. I'd say 30 days later, when we decided, when we were going back

11 and forth from Bilice and Plitska to Garici, back and forth, we decided to

12 move back to our village, even though it was destroyed, we decided to just

13 go there and live there and at that moment we found the bodies and we

14 found the body of Ibro Dugonjic in his house. He was burned.

15 Q. All right. That was jumping ahead slightly. Now, you went first

16 of all to Plitska and from there, did you go to Bilice?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Was that all of you from Hrvacani or just some of you?

19 A. Some of us went to Bilice and some of us went to Cirkino Brdo with

20 the relatives, you know.

21 Q. Okay. Did you go first of all to Cirkino Brdo?

22 A. Yes, ma'am.

23 Q. Was this a Muslim village?

24 A. 100 per cent Muslim village.

25 Q. Had that been attacked at all?

Page 19401

1 A. No, because they signed a loyalty to Serbs and they surrendered.

2 Q. All right. Now, how long did you stay in Cirkino Brdo?

3 A. I'd say approximately 20 to 30 days, I don't remember now.

4 Q. And who was there? Was it you and your mother?

5 A. Yes, and my -- my cousin and most of my relatives.

6 Q. All right. What made you leave Cirkino Brdo?

7 A. Not enough food and 15 of -- families were living in the house

8 of -- on Cirkino Brdo and not enough food and water so we decided just to

9 go to Plitska.

10 Q. All right. Did the authorities raise any problem about you

11 staying in Cirkino Brdo?

12 A. Yes. Hasan Vilic was a man who gave us his old house to live in

13 and Serbs who were in charge, they were in Vrbanjci at that time, they

14 found out that Cirkino Brdo had some civilians from Hrvacani and they told

15 Hasan Vilic, to let us go. If they come back and find civilians from

16 Hrvacani they will kill him and every one of us so at that moment he came

17 to us and told us the whole story and we didn't want to cause any trouble

18 so we left for Bilice.

19 Q. Now, Bilice, was that also a Croat village?

20 A. That is correct, ma'am.

21 Q. What preparations had the villagers there made against attack?

22 A. I'd say they were well organised. They had -- as a matter of

23 fact, when we were coming to Bilice, we met 20 to 30 well-armed men, who

24 were mainly Croats. They had camouflage uniforms and they were

25 well-organised. They were prepared for war.

Page 19402

1 Q. And had they taken any precautions to prevent people reaching the

2 village, Serbs reaching the village? In other words, were there trenches?

3 A. Oh, yes, there were trenches. As -- when we were approaching the

4 north side of Bilice, we were stopped by soldiers, they were digged --

5 they had trenches in front of the houses and they knew that we were coming

6 because somebody informed them so they came out and they offered us food

7 and water.

8 Q. And how many people in your -- were there in your group that went

9 from Cirkino Brdo to Bilice?

10 A. Twenty to thirty.

11 Q. And when you got there, did you find that your father was there

12 and your brother?

13 A. When we got to Bilice later on we found out we were in the house

14 who -- of -- who gave -- a Croat family gave us a house and that night, I

15 remember it was raining. My brother and my father, all of them, mainly

16 all men from Hrvacani were there at Plitska at that time.

17 Q. And what happened to your father and the other men from Hrvacani?

18 Did they stay in Bilice or did they go somewhere else?

19 A. Some of them stayed in Bilice and some of them left for Vecici.

20 Q. And the purpose of them leaving for Vecici was what?

21 A. To defend themselves.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour I'm moving on to the next part of the

23 travel so perhaps that would be a convenient moment for a break.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have a 25-minute break now. Thank you.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

Page 19403

1 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm so sorry, I think it was my fault

3 that you were waiting. I lost time of when we were coming back.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Let's go into private

6 session for a while.

7 [Private session]

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 19404

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2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. Ms. Korner is going to

7 proceed with the examination-in-chief. Thank you.

8 MS. KORNER:

9 Q. Yes. Now, Mr. Pasic, we had reached the part where you were in

10 Bilice. Was there sufficient food for all of you from Hrvacani to reside

11 there for any length of time?

12 A. I don't know. But I know one thing we were sharing the food with

13 them -- villagers from Bilice and they were sharing food with us. It was

14 somehow organised as we were getting the food once in the morning, you

15 know, they were just giving us, offering us flour.

16 Q. Okay. In any event, as you've already, I think, mentioned, did

17 you make a decision to go back to Hrvacani?

18 A. Yes, ma'am.

19 Q. By that stage, who was left from the village? Were there any

20 military-aged men left?

21 A. From -- can you repeat.

22 Q. From your village, yes.

23 A. From Hrvacani? Well, most of them, like I mentioned before, they

24 left, some of them left for Vecici and some stayed in Bilice but

25 civilians -- like I said the food was running low, and we decided just to

Page 19405

1 go back and go back to our village and just live there.

2 Q. And so who went back?

3 A. Just the civilians.

4 Q. By that, who do you mean, women, children?

5 A. Women and children mainly.

6 Q. Can you remember roughly how many of you there were?

7 A. I'll say 30 to 50 of us.

8 Q. Now, did you go back to your village through Plitska where you'd

9 been before?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And as you were going towards Hrvacani, did you see any Serbs?

12 A. Yes, ma'am. We were stopped by two soldiers near my village,

13 walking by, and they were armed with camouflage uniforms. One of them I

14 assume he was -- maybe injured or wounded, I don't know, but he was

15 holding his stomach like this and he was down, he was in big pain, and

16 they stopped us and asked us where -- where are you balija going? And at

17 that moment, my mom and some other old lady stood in front of the group

18 and said we are going back to our village because we have no where to go.

19 And at that moment, a soldier said, we don't care if you balija get

20 killed. There is no place for you here. Go back to Turkey. That's where

21 you belong. And we didn't say anything, we just -- and he says, if you

22 guys get killed or get shot, nobody is going to be responsible for you

23 balijas -- so -- and they left, they left towards Novakovo Brdo.

24 Q. You told them where you were going. Did they tell you what sort

25 of state Hrvacani was in?

Page 19406

1 A. Yes. They told us that Hrvacani belonged to Serb republic and

2 that it is -- no longer belongs to us. And there is nothing, everything

3 was burned and destroyed there, no place to live. At that moment my mom

4 said, "We are going and we are just going to find something because there

5 is no place anywhere else for us but home."

6 Q. When you arrived at Hrvacani, what sort of state was it in?

7 A. First of all, we approached Hrvacani from the south side where

8 first house we crossed by was my long time -- belonged to my uncle and it

9 was totally destroyed. The rest of -- I mean, the rest of the houses

10 burned, just the walls and two chimneys still up but everything else was

11 burned and destroyed.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You said earlier on there were 100 houses roughly in

13 Hrvacani.

14 THE WITNESS: That is correct, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: How many of them were still --

16 THE WITNESS: I'll say, Your Honour, approximately 2 to 5 houses

17 because they were just under constructions and nothing in them, just two

18 naked houses standing, but I'd say two to five houses in the whole

19 village.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: The rest were more or less in one way or another

21 destroyed?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes.

23 MS. KORNER:

24 Q. Destroyed by shelling or by people setting fire to them?

25 A. Some of them they were -- were destroyed by shelling and most of

Page 19407

1 them burned.

2 Q. What had happened to the property inside the houses?

3 A. The property in most houses is just gone because when we visit our

4 house, when we approached our house, nothing, no furniture, nothing, was

5 in there, just the walls and I found some things like a Koran, which is a

6 book for Muslims to pray. That was left on the floor. It was burned but

7 some script was left and I got it from -- but everything else was taken

8 out.

9 Q. Did you own a dog?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And what had happened to the dog?

12 A. We owned -- my father owned a dog because he was a hunter, and he

13 used the dog to hunt animals. When we approached the home and we found

14 him dead. He was shot and dead.

15 Q. Did the villagers own cattle?

16 A. Yes, ma'am. We owned -- my house owned four cattles, and when we

17 were in Plitska and Cirkino Brdo, we saw Serbs, they were taking all the

18 cattles, gathering them together and they were transporting them to Tepici

19 and Savici by tractors and trucks.

20 Q. Was there a mosque in Hrvacani?

21 A. Yes, ma'am, in the middle of village.

22 Q. And what had happened to that?

23 A. Mosque was completely destroyed.

24 Q. Were you able to see, by looking at it, whether that destruction

25 had happened through shelling or through any other kind of attack?

Page 19408

1 A. First, when we came to village, we met in the middle of village

2 where, you know, most of the time we hang out before the war, and we

3 wanted to visit the mosque and clearly, we went over there, mosque was

4 destroyed by -- it was blown up, not because of shelling.

5 Q. On the walls of the houses, what -- has anything been written?

6 A. Yes. We found JNA and sayings, this is Serbia, and also marks, a

7 cross with four S's, for C's.

8 Q. And I think you've already told us, was it at that stage that you

9 discovered the bodies of the people who had remained behind?

10 A. That is correct, ma'am.

11 Q. Now, having seen the state of the village, what did you decide to

12 do?

13 A. Well, we decided, we met in the middle of village and some people

14 decided to stay because they found some food and they decided to stay, but

15 my mom and I, we had a family members in Garici, which was signed a

16 loyalty and surrendered to the Serbs so we decided to go to Garici. We

17 didn't want to stay because everything was destroyed and we didn't have

18 food, so we decided to go to Garici.

19 Q. Whilst you were still in Hrvacani, did some soldiers arrive?

20 A. Yes, like 15 to 30 minutes after we arrived at Hrvacani, a full

21 tractor of soldiers was coming from Tepici down to meet us in the centre

22 of village. Some of them they were masked and some of them they had

23 camouflage uniforms.

24 Q. And did you recognise any of these people?

25 A. I didn't but my mom did.

Page 19409

1 Q. Did these soldiers speak to you all?

2 A. Yes, they did. As a matter of fact they offered us, one guy

3 offered us water, and ten minutes later they got us water but -- and they

4 told us, why we are here? There is no place for us to stay. And some of

5 us approached and told we want to go to Garici. We don't want to stay but

6 some group, I'd say half the group stayed in Hrvacani, so half the

7 soldiers went with us for Garici and the other half stayed with the group

8 in Hrvacani and I don't know what happened.

9 Q. You said one of them gave you water. Was the attitude of all

10 these soldiers friendly towards you?

11 A. Yes, ma'am. He was very friendly. He was as a matter of fact

12 helping one pregnant woman, and he got us water. He was really, really

13 friendly.

14 Q. What about the rest of the soldiers? Were they as friendly?

15 A. No, ma'am.

16 Q. What were they doing? Or what was one of them doing?

17 A. One of them, you know, he -- as I mentioned before, he went crazy

18 and he says, there is no place for us, why we are coming back? This is

19 Serbia and if we decided to stay in Hrvacani, they are not going to

20 guarantee for our lives so if we get killed, I mean they would just

21 threaten us.

22 Q. All right. So you and your mother went to Garici; is that right?

23 A. That is correct, ma'am.

24 Q. And was that together with most of the people?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 19410

1 Q. In order to go to Garici, did you have to pass through Savici?

2 A. That's correct, ma'am.

3 Q. Did something happen there?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What was that?

6 A. As we were entering Savici, a lot of civilians were waiting for

7 us, and as a matter of fact, I remember Dalibor, name of a guy who was

8 going to school with me, his mom was really crazy, I'll say crazy because

9 she was yelling at us and she wanted, as a matter of fact, to shoot at us

10 because she was going to grab a gun from a soldier who was holding us and

11 she was really, really threaten us because she said, you balija are going

12 around here looting and our soldiers getting killed in Vecici. Let me

13 kill one of the balija.

14 Q. And was she prevented from doing anything?

15 A. Yes, the friendly soldier who was really friendly to us, he pushed

16 her away and he says, move, move, so we had to move quickly through

17 Savici.

18 Q. All right. And did you in fact -- you and your family went to

19 Garici but did some of the other people with you stay in a place called

20 Vakufci?

21 A. That is correct, ma'am.

22 Q. How long did you remain in Garici?

23 A. I'll say approximately 30 days.

24 Q. Okay. And then again, because of the problem with food, did you

25 and your mother go to Bilice?

Page 19411

1 A. That is correct, ma'am.

2 Q. And whilst you were in Bilice, did your brother arrive?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And when he arrived, what did he want you to do?

5 A. He told us that Bilice will no longer stay under control of Croats

6 and that we should go to Vecici with him.

7 Q. And did you go at that stage to Vecici?

8 A. No, ma'am. We went back to Garici again because we were afraid to

9 go to -- to pass to Kotor Varos and passing Vrbanja which was most --

10 Vrbanja had mines so we were afraid to go back so we went back to Garici

11 again.

12 Q. Did you hear what happened to Bilice?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what was that?

15 A. Most of the people and soldiers who were there, they surrendered

16 and they were offered if they surrendered they going to live and they

17 going to be transferred to Bosnian side.

18 Q. So you had gone back to Garici again. Roughly how long did you

19 remain there?

20 A. Say 25 to 30 days.

21 Q. All right. By this stage - I think we've come roughly into

22 October or thereabouts - were there any villages outside of Garici and

23 Vecici which were not under Serb control?

24 A. Vecici was the only village left under control of people defended

25 themselves from Serbs. Everything else was under control of Serbs.

Page 19412

1 Q. All right. Now, did you then eventually, some four days before

2 Vecici fell, go there?

3 A. That is correct, ma'am.

4 Q. And did you do that as a result of, effectively, orders?

5 A. I remember one night we were sitting at Atif Agambegovic who was

6 my relative and we were sitting there watching the news when somebody

7 knocked on the door and at that moment, we opened the door and Akif Pasic

8 which was my next door neighbour and also cousin arrived and told us that

9 they signed a truce or agreement with the Serbs that there would be no

10 fighting for five days and that all the people, all the civilians from

11 Hrvacani should go to Vecici. That was the agreement with the Serbs. And

12 next morning we left for Vecici.

13 Q. I think you had to go via Vrbanjci to pick up a travel document;

14 is that right?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Now, roughly how many of you went to Vecici that day?

17 A. I'll say approximately 30 to 50 people.

18 Q. Again, was that women and children?

19 A. That is correct, ma'am.

20 Q. When you arrived at Vecici, what sort of state was the town in?

21 Or the village?

22 A. When we were approaching Vecici from Vrbanjci, most of the houses,

23 I mean all of them, were destroyed. We met some soldiers waiting for us

24 and they had trees all over the road so we had a hard time to get in

25 Vecici, but all the houses were burned and most of them, I would say 100

Page 19413

1 per cent destroyed because of shelling and all the stuff that was going

2 on.

3 Q. And did you hear that the village had been aerially bombarded?

4 A. Yes, ma'am.

5 Q. Now, did you also meet in Vecici your father and your brother?

6 A. Yes, ma'am.

7 Q. And was your brother-in-law there as well?

8 A. That is correct, ma'am.

9 Q. At that stage, did you know what had happened to your sister?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. She had been living, you've told us, in Dabovci. What had

12 happened to that village?

13 A. Dabovci was -- I don't know what happened. I -- how they got --

14 we heard from him when we came to Vecici that the whole village was

15 destroyed, burned, and all the civilians were taken to Vrbanjci and all

16 the men were gathered together, including himself, and they were shot, but

17 he -- he has survived, and then he escaped to Vecici. All the houses were

18 burned and the civilians were taken to Vrbanjci, including my sister.

19 Q. Was your sister at Vecici?

20 A. No, ma'am.

21 Q. I want to jump ahead for a moment. When was the first time you

22 saw your sister again?

23 A. When we came to safe side, Travnik and Zenica, when she came to

24 visit us from Croatia.

25 Q. All right. I'll come back to that later. I want you to have a

Page 19414

1 look, now, please, at a video --

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, which there is a transcript for. I'm

3 not -- it's a very long video and I'm only going to play parts of it.

4 MS. BARUCH: Does this item have a number?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This is -- I'm sure it has because this is a

6 video which contains a lot of other material.

7 MS. KORNER: It's not an exhibit yet, Your Honour, although it's

8 got -- can we pause it for a moment?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We have referred to it in the past already, no?

10 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour, although it contains the same news

11 reel at the end that we've seen on other videos, it's a different one.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

13 MS. KORNER: Its number is V 000-2908 and it will become

14 Exhibit 2431. If we could play it? Yes.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MS. KORNER: We seem to have lost the sound, though.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The transcript itself will have what number?

18 MS. KORNER: Could we call that 2431-1?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

20 MS. KORNER: A and B because there is a B/C/S version as well.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

22 MS. KORNER: But I don't know why the sound is not coming up.

23 Maybe it's just because I haven't got the ear phones on.

24 MS. BARUCH: I now have a picture of Ms. Korner, I don't know if

25 for some reason I'm not using this correctly. I pressed the video button.

Page 19415

1 MS. KORNER: Do you not have a Sanction machine over there? It's

2 on computer.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: You go on computer evidence and tell me if there is

4 a problem, Madam Baruch.

5 MS. KORNER: I'm still wondering why there is no sound.

6 MS. BARUCH: I'm just seeing, Your Honours, grey and white.

7 Okay. Okay.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We still have no sound.

9 MS. KORNER: No, we don't have any sound. Well, Your Honour, this

10 is on a CD-ROM but I have actually got a video here so we could give that

11 to the video booth to play it. Can we pause just there, please?

12 Q. We just caught sight there of a grave stone saying, a headstone

13 I should say, saying Ekrem Pasic. Was that any relation to you,

14 Mr. Pasic?

15 A. Yes, he was.

16 Q. A close relation?

17 A. He was my cousin.

18 Q. And do you know how he died? Did you hear how he died?

19 A. Yes. When we got to Vecici, his father told us that Ekrem Pasic

20 and his friend, I don't recall his name, I don't remember his name, left

21 for Travnik and they were shot above Vecici north side, small village, I

22 remember now name, Staza, also controlled by Serbs. They left at night

23 and they -- the people at front lane heard a lot of fighting going on and

24 like four days later his father went over there and he found his body.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 19416

1 MS. KORNER: All right. If we can continue playing the video,

2 please?

3 [Videotape played]

4 MS. KORNER: We seem to have lost the sound again. The sound is

5 gone.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The sound is gone or it never came actually.

7 MS. KORNER: Somebody said it did come. We can give them the

8 video to play, Your Honour, that might be easier.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

10 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Ms. Korner, please.

12 MS. BARUCH: At this point if it's being played as a video then I

13 press the video button?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think so, yes. Although you might find it

15 clearer sometimes if you press video evidence. It depends. Sometimes

16 it's --

17 MS. KORNER: If we can play it, then, please.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Still tracking. Okay.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Soldiers from all the villages are

21 here. We can't go from one grave to the next, but we'll just go over so

22 that you can see. Tell them that the whole family is here, a whole

23 family, father, child and wife. A shell killed them.

24 MS. KORNER: Could we pause the video there, please? Thank you.

25 Q. That appears to be some kind of the remains of a shelf some kind.

Page 19417

1 Did you see that yourself, Mr. Pasic?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Who showed it to you?

4 A. My father.

5 Q. All right.

6 MS. KORNER: Yes, could we just carry on, please.

7 [Videotape played]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, so where are we, here, now?

9 MS. KORNER: I'm so sorry, we are in Vecici.

10 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Pasic, can you just confirm that is Vecici?

11 A. Yes, there is when I moved to Vecici my father showed me this

12 shell from air strikes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour is quite right. I forgot to say that.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed, yeah.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] What you see up there are napalm

18 bombs; they threw them too. And who did that? Our Serbian neighbours,

19 our kums, and perhaps the last name, Zoran Zajdan [phoen], Zoran, our

20 neighbours did that. Who else?

21 This is a newly-built mosque. It was to be opened on the 1st of

22 August, but you see what happened to it, due to the situation here, our

23 situation -- our neighbours did it. Over 200 missiles of all kinds and

24 calibres were fired from tanks, guns, howitzers and what else, not to

25 mention the bullets. They shelled from all sides, you see. Knocked the

Page 19418

1 minaret down. Some 2 million marks were invested in it. Neighbours --

2 our -- the neighbours are destroying everything they come across, shelling

3 daily, although there is nothing left of it. They have destroyed it

4 completely.

5 This is the state of the mosque on the inside. This was one of

6 the best preserved mosques in this region. You can see what's left of it

7 now. There is a piece of shrapnel here inside. There are pieces of

8 shells here, some armour-piercing ones over there.

9 MS. KORNER: Can we pause, please?

10 MS. BARUCH: I don't know if -- I think this video has not been

11 shown before.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no.

13 MS. BARUCH: So I think that the testimony that's coming through,

14 along with the video, is unsworn testimony that hasn't been offered as a

15 92 bis motion and I would object to further sound on this video.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner?

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this is the first time I've heard this

18 objection. We've watched video after video after video with the sound.

19 Your Honours are entitled to take into consideration and give it the

20 weight that it deserves, given as, quite rightly, Ms. Baruch says it's not

21 sworn testimony.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not being taken as sworn testimony anyway. But

23 I still don't understand the objection as such. I mean we have had videos

24 where we did not listen to the sound, precisely because we decided not to

25 listen to the sound.

Page 19419

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I put it this way --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: But obviously this is not the case. We listen and

3 then obviously if you want to pause at any time and put a question to the

4 witness.

5 MS. KORNER: I'm going to in a moment.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry. You do that. Say, is this the mosque in

7 Vecici, and he would say yes, but it's his testimony that I would -- we

8 would take into consideration as such, together with the video but I

9 understand in a way what you mean but you don't need to worry about it,

10 Madam Baruch.

11 MS. BARUCH: What I'm understanding the Court say something you

12 will consider what you see and this witness's testimony, but not what

13 you're hearing.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: What we are hearing may become important if

15 questions are put. For example, if the commentary, running commentary

16 says there is napalm here et cetera, no questions are put on

17 whether -- for me it doesn't mean a thing. I mean at that point --

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour I agree entirely it's hearsay testimony

19 and it's hearsay testimony in exactly the same way as Your Honours take

20 into consideration other hearsay testimony.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But you don't need to worry about it unduly,

22 Mrs. Baruch, because basically it's being shown to the witness and he will

23 be asked questions if and when, and it's his questions that are the

24 important part.

25 MS. BARUCH: Okay. With that understanding I just have made my

Page 19420

1 objection for the record.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: That's all right. Thanks. Okay. So, let's

3 proceed.

4 MS. KORNER: While we've paused the film for a moment --

5 Q. Mr. Pasic did you yourself see the destruction to this mosque?

6 A. Yes, this is the newest -- the interpreter said it earlier, there

7 is a new mosque and I was walking by with my father.

8 Q. And did you go inside it?

9 A. No, I did not because I was afraid it, you know --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Maybe booby trapped or something probably.

11 MS. KORNER: I don't think it was booby trapped at that stage, but

12 all right.

13 Can we just continue very shortly then I'm going to ask for the

14 film to be moved on slightly. Can you just continue playing on at the

15 moment.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Actually, we saw two persons walking at one time.

17 Did you feature in this video yourself or not?

18 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, later we'll see a date on it. It was

21 the 3rd of October, it was filmed, before Mr. Pasic got there.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MS. KORNER: All right. I think we'll move on. Can we

25 fast-forward, I hope the timing is the same, to roughly 13 minutes,

Page 19421

1 please, on this? Your Honour, I'm going to the part on page 3 of the

2 transcript, that voice at line 20, where it says, "Voice." At least I

3 hope I am.

4 MS. BARUCH: I don't have a transcript. Does the Court have a

5 transcript?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

7 MS. KORNER: It was given to you last Friday. Can we stop the

8 film, sorry and go back?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the transcript which has as ERN on the first

10 page 0308-3027.

11 MS. KORNER: Pause now, please, the film.

12 MS. BARUCH: Again, I still have my objection to the words.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

14 MS. KORNER:

15 Q. Now, we'll see this gentleman come into focus, could we just move

16 it at a normal rate, please. The film. Play on. Thanks.

17 [Videotape played]

18 MS. KORNER: Now, pause, please, there.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Pasic, do you recognise this man?

20 A. Yes, I do, ma'am.

21 Q. And who is he?

22 A. He's hodza from Vecici. I saw him when I was at Grabovica.

23 Q. Had you seen -- did you see him during the short period you were

24 in Vecici or was the first time at Grabovica?

25 A. First time was at Grabovica.

Page 19422

1 Q. All right. Yes. I think if we just run through this part, then,

2 please? And then we'll stop. Yes, could you play that.

3 [Videotape played]

4 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Let me just film the building a bit

5 or what remains of it so you can see for yourself what and how it happened

6 and it could have been avoided. A man who is trying to be a better person

7 is happy in both worlds and a man who -- he can talk now. A person who

8 works for the general good is happy in both worlds and if people were like

9 that, luck would follow us for as long as we live and we would not blame

10 ourselves, nor would either blame us. Do we want to be like this? We

11 should be like this. If we want to keep our own happiness, peace, and

12 freedom, we must be like this, because they say that one man has a duty to

13 look after another and respect him like he does himself, and there is no

14 faith or any neighbourly behaviour for those who do not live with their

15 neighbours in the best way. Efendi, tell us who is to blame for all of

16 this so that all our fathers, brothers, relatives, colleagues and friends

17 and our neighbours will know when they watch this tape, who is to blame

18 for everything that is happening here? Not only in our village but in all

19 of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Whose fault is it? Is it us Muslims or -- I just

20 ask myself this --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... I can tell you

22 straight and plain.

23 MS. KORNER: Pause for a minute. Your Honour is going to hear

24 evidence that this man is dead.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: But what I mean to say, if this part of his

Page 19423

1 contribution to the video, to the commentary --

2 MS. KORNER: I don't --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not going to rely that.

4 MS. KORNER: I'm not going to rely on what he says but I think

5 Your Honour ought to hear what this man has to say because you're going to

6 hear about the circumstances in which this man died.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: M'hm.

8 MS. KORNER: Yes, could we just finish this off, please?

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] He who does not attack, he's happy to

11 remain at peace, and everyone will be peaceful because of him. And he who

12 attacks is the one who is an aggressor against himself and others. I

13 think it makes sense. I would really like everyone to be -- it is not a

14 matter of what direction or what faith or religion they are. I would like

15 all of us to be honest and trust each other. God demands it of us but so

16 does man, the one who cares for the well-being of man. Efendi, one more

17 question, have you been here since the very first day? Yes. Since when?

18 From the first day you have not gone anywhere or been out of this house

19 here. No, since the very first day I was the one who started building it

20 with my people here, and we built it, and then I moved into it. As far as

21 my Dzematlija [phoen] congregation is concerned, they were always willing

22 to get on with everyone and all the other neighbours, regardless of their

23 denomination, know that. There are 18 denominations in our state, our

24 former joint collective state, they were 18 religious denominations and in

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina alone, there were 16 different ones. If you consider

Page 19424

1 this statement, then Bosnia-Herzegovina is the symbol of happiness and

2 well-being of all people regardless of their nature, because we have many

3 denominations here, 16, in fact, and there were two denominations in the

4 other republics. One more thing: Would you like to send greetings to

5 anyone because this will be shown in Austria, Germany, Switzerland, in the

6 whole world, the whole world will watch this video so if you have anyone

7 you would like to say hello to, Efendi? To all our people there, to our

8 Muslims, I send greetings and to all Catholics and all others who are

9 good-natured and who wish to live a good life with us, to all, I send

10 greetings, so they would be joyful and happy, happy about the greeting,

11 because it comes from the heart. What else can I say? That's all from

12 Efendi, and I wish that God gives you all the best everywhere and that you

13 have luck in everything. Not just you but all of those who are your

14 friends and that those who are against man move away from evil and follow

15 the path that is needed for the good of man. Thank you. May you live

16 long.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you. You can stop the video, thank you.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Pasic, you spent I think some four days in Vecici; is

19 that right?

20 A. That is correct, ma'am.

21 Q. And what happened on the fifth day?

22 A. On the fifth day, I was on the east side in Vecici and we were

23 sitting in the basement when my father came and he was talking to my mom

24 about me going with him for Travnik, because he heard and they were afraid

25 to send me with my mom because Serbs were taking kids and all the males

Page 19425

1 from females in Banja Luka and Vlasic. So they got afraid and they

2 decided that I go with my father and we left that night around, I'd say,

3 approximately 8.00 at night, a group of people.

4 Q. Now, before you left, had there been any attack going on, on

5 Vecici?

6 A. No major attacks, just sporadic automatic weapons, snipers, but

7 no, no major fighting.

8 Q. Now, you left at about 9.00 that night, a group of you. How big

9 was the group?

10 A. I don't know exactly how many people but it was long, a long

11 group. I know for a fact. I don't know exactly how many people.

12 Q. Did that include your father?

13 A. Yes, including my father.

14 Q. What about your brother?

15 A. No, my brother, I guess he left a day before or, I don't know

16 where he -- what time he left or when, but -- later on, we found him in

17 Travnik so I guess he escaped the day before.

18 Q. What about however your brother-in-law? Was he part of the group?

19 A. Yes. He was part of the group. As a matter of fact we were

20 holding hands when we were walking. My father was in the front, I was

21 behind him, I was holding my uncle and, you know, we were trying to stay

22 closer together.

23 Q. And your brother-in-law, you couldn't remember what the family

24 name was, what was his first name do you remember that?

25 A. His first name, Elvir.

Page 19426

1 Q. All right. Now, of this group?

2 A. I'm sorry, I remember last name now, Lihovic.

3 Q. Of this group, what proportion were women and children?

4 A. Can you explain that? I mean --

5 Q. I'm sorry, you have said there a was a group of people and you

6 can't remember how many. But roughly how many women, your mother was

7 there, you told us, were there other women and roughly how many?

8 A. Well, all the villagers from Vecici and mainly villagers from

9 Hrvacani, they left behind in Vecici, I don't know how many, I don't know.

10 Q. Were there a number of children, people your age, in your group?

11 A. In my group, yes. As a matter of fact, two of them were going

12 in -- were going in the same school and they were my age.

13 Q. All right. And how did you leave? Where did you go?

14 A. As I mentioned before, we left around 8.00, 9.00 and we were going

15 towards Travnik and we were just walking with -- all night.

16 Q. And did that take you through open country or woods?

17 A. Woods.

18 Q. What happened the next -- what happened during that night, rather?

19 A. Around midnight, I'd say 1.00 or 2.00 in the morning, we were

20 ambushed by Serbs. I don't know exactly where but I know it was just

21 woods, you know, and lots of forest, so we were ambushed and two people

22 got killed, a guy from Vecici and his son, last name Zec and I don't

23 remember his name but I saw them and we took them and left them behind,

24 underneath a tree.

25 Q. Did the group remain as one at that stage? In other words did

Page 19427

1 everybody stay together or did they split?

2 A. No, we split in two groups and then later on that night, around

3 I'd say 4.00, 5.00 in the morning, we found each other, both groups, and

4 we gathered together to rest in one open area which was surrounded by

5 woods.

6 Q. Were you discovered there?

7 A. I assume all night, later on we found out that we had somebody

8 that was talking to the Serbs in our group, but that night, or I'd say

9 morning, they knew where we were going exactly, what position, and what

10 stage, so around early morning, they were waiting for us to rest or gather

11 together to -- and then that's the moment when we were ambushed the second

12 time, early in the morning.

13 Q. What happened to your group?

14 A. Well, fighting started and bullets were coming from everywhere. I

15 was so terrified and so scared that we ran, one group ran with our leader,

16 Besim, who was leading the group. We ran down the hill into the water. I

17 don't know the name of the hill or neither the water name. We ran down

18 and some of the fighters -- other group decided to fight Serbs so they

19 fighting was going on up on the hill. We ran down and we land on -- most

20 of our groups -- front land on the mines. They knew exactly which way we

21 were going so they had mine fields near the water and thank God I was

22 stopped. I had a big, big, huge -- I mean, coat on me, and it was so wet

23 that I stopped my father and I told him to take it off, and by that time,

24 people passed us and they land on the mines. Including Besim, who was

25 leader, his two legs were blown up.

Page 19428

1 Q. You managed to avoid going into the mine field. Where did you go?

2 A. We went around the water and -- actually we passed through the

3 water, which two men went and they told us that no mines were found so we

4 crossed the river on the other side where we gathered, I'd say, 200, 150

5 to 200 people including hodza and we gathered together and we prayed.

6 Q. And then what happened?

7 A. And at that time, fighting was still going on and Serbs on both

8 hills, they were calling our names, "Balija, surrender, there is no way

9 you can go. Just give up your weapons and you'll be free." And they were

10 calling on megaphones, names, and we just didn't know what to do. I was

11 so scared that I didn't know what to do, where to go, so we were just

12 sitting there and prayed and finally we decided to surrender.

13 Q. When you surrendered, how did you indicate that you were

14 surrendering?

15 A. First of all, we walk into the old tunnel with 200 people, and the

16 guy who was contacting Serbs all the time, he pulled his shirt, took his

17 shirt off, which was white shirt, and he raised it on the stick, and

18 that's when Serbs told us to walk slowly towards them.

19 Q. And is that what you did?

20 A. That is correct. We walked slowly towards Serbs. They were

21 waiting for us. I'd say approximately a hundred or 200 metres from the

22 tunnel.

23 Q. Was your father and your brother-in-law, Elvir, in the group with

24 you?

25 A. Yes, ma'am.

Page 19429

1 Q. And what happened when you got to where the Serbs were?

2 A. Okay. When we got to the Serbs, there were -- they were firing

3 weapons and all around us, they told us to -- if anybody who had a weapon

4 to lay weapon on one side, all the money and gold on the other side, and

5 they told us if they find a needle they would kill us. So nothing, just

6 empty all our pockets and walk slowly towards this -- right before

7 Grabovica school, so I don't know what the place and field.

8 Q. Now, when you got to the field, what happened to the men? And

9 yourselves?

10 A. Okay. When we got there, soldiers told us to lay down in I'd say

11 three rows like this. We were faced this way down to the ground, and the

12 ground was so muddy and wet that we had a hard time to breathe. They told

13 us to lay down and just stay calm. If anybody moves they are going to

14 shoot us. And we were there approximately two hours face down and that's

15 when the all the things started happening.

16 Q. And what started happening?

17 A. First of all, they asked us who was in charge, and they picked a

18 guy from the group, I don't know his name or anything because I couldn't

19 see because I was face down, they picked a guy and asked him who was in

20 charge and he says, Besim. And they asked him where he is at, and he

21 said, he got shot, he's wounded and probably dead right now. And they

22 told him to call his name so he started yelling his name and they were

23 laughing and, you know, firing guns and he came back to his group, he lay

24 down, and that's when they start asking questions who had this gun. As a

25 matter of fact they had a list of guns and they called the names, so they

Page 19430

1 called my father, I don't know for what reason, but he was next to me and

2 they told him to get up and they had a number of his gun because he was a

3 hunter, he had a licence for it and they were saying, where did you find

4 those boots? He told them I was a hunter, and they said, no, no, that's

5 not true. You killed one of our soldiers and they start beating him. So

6 he was crying and they asked him also, do you have any members within the

7 group? And he told them no. But he did came back to the group.

8 They were also beating the hodza. I know they called his name and

9 they were screaming and laughing, he says this guy is in charge. So he

10 was beaten, he was crying and I know he was saying, no I'm not responsible

11 for none of this, my child. That was his favourite saying, my child, and

12 I don't know what happened to him but later on when I got up I saw him in

13 blood and he was faced this way. I couldn't walk -- I couldn't turn

14 around and see because they told us to look straight not to look around.

15 And when we were laying down on the ground face down, they had three --

16 later on I found out three army trucks parked next to the group, and they

17 were going back and forth, just to terrify us and see if somebody stands

18 up and they told us if somebody gets up they are going to shoot us so they

19 were going back and forth and my uncle told me they are going to run over

20 us and they did -- they went back and they came forward but they didn't

21 run over us. That was just to see if somebody is going to get up so they

22 can shoot him.

23 At that moment, they told us all the children and women to get up,

24 I refused because I didn't know what's going to happen, what was going to

25 happen, but my uncle said, you going to survive, go. So I finally got up

Page 19431

1 and I walked away with the group of I'd say six boys my age and women and

2 one injured guy. So they told us to walk towards Grabovica which we

3 were -- we did. We walked down and they -- I don't know what happened to

4 the men. They left later on, when we got to Grabovica school, they lined

5 us in line and that's -- it was kind of dark, I couldn't see, a guy, but I

6 guess he was in charge of the group, he approached us and he told us to --

7 he was kind of -- he said that nothing is going to happen to us, tomorrow

8 they are going to have a bus for us to go to Travnik but he did say our

9 fighters will pay for this and then he told us to walk in the school and

10 they are going to put us in the classroom and that's what they did.

11 Q. Pause for a moment there. When you got to the school, in the

12 village of Grabovica, were there local Serbs there?

13 A. Yes. Women and children, they were dressed, mostly women, were

14 dressed in black dress, they were screaming and throwing stones and

15 spitting on us and they were waiting for us even though it was kind of

16 dark at night they were waiting outside and yelling, but the soldiers got

17 us through and we walked in the school and we were put in a classroom on

18 the first floor. Then later on that night, we saw all the men, the rest

19 of the men, coming with their hands tied up behind their back. They were

20 put on the second floor, all of them.

21 Q. Now, the person in charge of the group who said that nothing was

22 going to happen to you, that you would be taken to Travnik, and that, was

23 he wearing any kind of a uniform?

24 A. Like I said, it was kind of dark, I know he had some kind of hat

25 or something with lights and I couldn't see him. He was a tall man. And

Page 19432

1 he had camouflage uniforms but I couldn't see any marks or anything

2 because it was too dark.

3 Q. All right. Now, you were put into the ground floor in a

4 classroom. Were you being guarded? I'm so sorry, you were put in a

5 classroom on the first floor. Just so that we get this right, do you mean

6 by that the ground floor or actually going up some stairs?

7 A. Well, actually, they didn't have ground floor. It was just one, I

8 don't know, no basement at all, so yes it was --

9 Q. So you went?

10 A. Straight in the classroom.

11 Q. As you came through the door you were taken into a classroom?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And when you saw the men come in you say they were placed

14 on the second floor, so that was the floor above you?

15 A. Yes, they had steps going up so we heard them walking upstairs.

16 Q. All right. Was there a guard placed on you?

17 A. Yes, two men, two soldiers whom, one of them was a prisoner in

18 Vecici, and he was really kind. He had an automatic weapon and he says --

19 he asked us later on that night, do you remember me? I was in Vecici.

20 And we didn't -- we were afraid to talk but, yeah, two soldiers were

21 guarding us that night.

22 Q. Now, you say that when the men arrived, they had their hands tied

23 up behind their back. Did you see that yourself or did somebody else see

24 that from a window?

25 A. I see it myself -- I saw it myself because they had -- they had

Page 19433

1 trucks with lights, it was raining, I remember it was raining that night,

2 it was so dark, and they had trucks behind with the lights in front of

3 them so we could see them walking in a group. I was looking through the

4 window. They were on our left-hand side.

5 Q. Now, whilst you were being kept at the school and after the

6 fighters arrived, were you given the -- the men arrived, were you given

7 any opportunity to go and see them?

8 A. Yes. They offered us later on that night, I don't know exactly,

9 at one time, if we wanted to see our relative or whoever in that group. I

10 refused that. I didn't want to go because I was afraid, and at that time,

11 you know, I knew my father, when they told him before to get up and they

12 were asking him about the boots, and they also asked him about members,

13 any members within the group and he told them no so that's why I didn't

14 want to go and see him because I was afraid to go but some other people

15 from our group went to see their relatives.

16 Q. Did your mother go and speak to your father?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And were you kept in the classroom all night?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. You say that some people from the group went to see their

21 relatives. When they came back, did they tell you the condition of the

22 men who were up there?

23 A. Harija Ahmedovic [phoen] is the name of one lady who was on my

24 right hand side sitting and she wanted to see her husband because she just

25 recently got married. She went upstairs and his name was Sead Rahmanovic,

Page 19434

1 he was from Okuci [phoen]. And she said -- she went upstairs and she

2 talked to them and she -- when she came downstairs she said that they were

3 all fine, you know, they were all upstairs, all of them, but they were

4 beaten and as a matter of fact her husband, she said he had a black eye

5 and his face was all blue.

6 Q. All right. Now, what happened the next morning?

7 A. Next morning, two soldiers, I mean, came to us and told us that we

8 were going for Travnik, they have a bus ready for us, and they told us

9 walk slowly from the classroom and as we were walking out, a bunch of

10 people, civilians, mostly women and children, were waiting for us outside

11 school.

12 Q. And what happened as you came out of the school?

13 A. As we came -- as we came out of the school, they told us to walk

14 one by one, slowly, and they had people on both sides, it was like a

15 tunnel, we had to walk and a bus was parked approximately 50 to 100 metres

16 from the school, and I remember the soldier told us if you survive this,

17 you're going to survive, and the people waiting outside, they were holding

18 axes, sticks, stones, they were just waiting for us to walk through the

19 group so -- and they -- the first man who I remember was going to school

20 with me, a little boy, they let him through, and as soon as he meet the

21 middle of the group they hit him so hard with I don't know what but he

22 fell down on his knees and he couldn't walk so he crawled, and when the

23 second man was passing by he grabbed him and took him to the bus so we had

24 to go one by one and walk slowly. We couldn't run because they told us

25 walk slowly so they can beat us and I was the last person in the group.

Page 19435

1 They let me go and I was beaten on my back and as soon as I reached the

2 bus, one woman grabbed me, was dressed in a black dress, and told, let me

3 kill this little balija because my two sons died in Vecici, and she was

4 holding a knife, and I didn't move. I didn't know what to do. I was so

5 scared. And thank God that the soldier grabbed her and pushed her away

6 and told me, get in there. He pushed me in the bus and they closed the

7 door, and the bus was -- I assume they had some problems so we didn't

8 leave that spot until 15 minutes later, because they had some problems.

9 While we were waiting on the bus, people were so angry, they were throwing

10 stones and spitting on us. They told us not to look around we might get

11 hurt if we looked through the window, we might get hurt. But I did. I

12 looked through the window when we left that spot, and I saw some people

13 from upstairs where our men were located, they waved like this and that

14 was the last time I saw men from Grabovica.

15 Q. Have you ever since that day seen your father or your

16 brother-in-law again?

17 A. No, ma'am, never.

18 Q. I want you to look, please, just at one document, which is Exhibit

19 P2302. Now, if you can -- I think you can put the English on the ELMO?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Put it straight on the ELMO, and then we can follow

21 too because I don't have this document right in front of me now.

22 MS. KORNER:

23 Q. Could we look, please, at item number 2, the paragraph: "In the

24 area of Kotor Varos, there was a clash between members of Muslim forces

25 and our units, because of the refusal to negotiate on moving out of the

Page 19436

1 Vecici village area. About 40 Green Beret members were killed and about

2 200 were captured. A brutal massacre of the captured members of the Green

3 Berets started because of the wounding of four and killing of one soldier

4 of the Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade and the burning of wounded

5 soldiers on the Gola Planina, Jajce." Is there any doubt in your mind,

6 Mr. Pasic, that that refers to the men who you left behind in the school

7 at Grabovica?

8 A. No doubt in my mind.

9 Q. Once you had left in the buses, did you go to Vrbanjci?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And from there, did you go to Travnik?

12 A. Yes. With 13 other buses, including all civilians, all women and

13 children from Vecici and some surrounding villages, they were waiting for

14 us to arrive from Grabovica and we were taken with the buses, 13 other

15 buses, towards Travnik, across Vlasic.

16 Q. Did anything happen before you got to Travnik?

17 A. Yes. On the Vlasic we were stopped with a group of soldiers, four

18 of them, four groups, within like 15 metres, they were all armed, they had

19 masks on their faces and they were like every 15 metres that we were

20 stopped and asked for all the money, gold, anything, to leave, and so they

21 were actually stripping all of us to find the gold and money.

22 Q. And once they had taken everything off you, how did you get to

23 Travnik?

24 A. Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina knew about this and they were waiting

25 for us, I don't know how far from the lines, but they were waiting for us

Page 19437

1 with the buses and we had to walk, I don't know how big was the distance,

2 but finally we met Bosnian army and they took us with trucks and buses

3 towards Travnik and Zenica.

4 Q. I want to go, please, Your Honour for a moment into private

5 session, if I may?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session, Madam Registrar,

7 please.

8 [Private session]

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Page 19438

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18 [Open session]

19 MS. KORNER:

20 Q. Mr. Pasic, what effect did all of what happened to you and your

21 family have on you personally?

22 A. This incident that happened left a deep impact in my life. I

23 still have nightmares. As a matter of fact, last night I dreamt about my

24 father. Every time when I go back and I think about this, it just brings

25 the memories and it's really hard.

Page 19439

1 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner. I think if you agree, we

3 should have the break now.

4 MS. KORNER: Certainly.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: 25 minutes. And then they will cross-examine the

6 witness. So basically, we'll say we'll reconvene at quarter to 1.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is witness 7.279? This is yours, Ms. Korner?

10 MS. KORNER: That's tomorrow's witness, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I know him by BT, all right. It's all right. I got

12 confused.

13 MS. KORNER: I always forget what the --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it's my fault, it's my fault, it's my fault.

15 MS. KORNER: That's the list for tomorrow's witness, BT95.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I really had a fright. For a moment I

17 thought this was the cross-examination documents for this witness. And I

18 said I hope not. All right, Mrs. Baruch is going to cross-examine you. I

19 think I ought to explain to you that this is part of the procedure. The

20 accused is entitled here to have you cross-examined on the basis of your

21 testimony. So it's something that we need to go through and Mrs. Baruch,

22 who represents the accused, is one of the lawyers representing the

23 accused, will be conducting the cross-examination. Mrs. Baruch?

24 MS. BARUCH: Thank you, may it please the Court.

25 Your Honours, just very briefly could we have it closed because it

Page 19440

1 was closed for a small portion of the Prosecution.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Closed or private?

3 MS. BARUCH: Private.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while.

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25 MS. BARUCH:

Page 19443

1 Q. Okay, Mr. Pasic --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. We are in open session now. Yes,

3 Mrs. Baruch.

4 MS. BARUCH: Okay, thank you.

5 Q. There was two points I wanted to clear up, I think the Court

6 suggested that your fear of going into the mosque, that was on videotape,

7 might have been because it was booby-trapped. But did I understand

8 correctly that that mosque was in Vecici and under the control of Muslims

9 and Croat forces?

10 A. That is correct, ma'am.

11 Q. So the Serbs would have had nothing to do with booby-trapping that

12 mosque at that time? Would that be correct?

13 A. The only reason why I was afraid to walk in the mosque, because of

14 all the shelling and all the bombing, I was afraid that the mosque could

15 collapse. That's why we don't -- I was standing next to it and I was

16 just, you know, examine it around in it but we didn't me and my father --

17 I didn't -- I refused to walk in there because I was afraid that the

18 building would collapse and -- because of that.

19 Q. Okay. Do you know if -- was that mosque quite close to the area

20 where there was fighting?

21 A. Well, this is -- the newest mosque was --

22 Q. The one we saw the picture of.

23 A. I don't know. I can't tell you that. I have no idea.

24 Q. Is Vecici a very large place or is it a smaller place?

25 A. It's a big -- well, it's quite a big village. I don't know how

Page 19444

1 many houses or anybody but they had in Vecici they were split with the

2 river. We had a west side and an east side with two mosques so...

3 Q. And the particular mosque we were talking about, do you remember

4 if it was on the west side or the east side?

5 A. I think it was on the east side because that was the side we

6 stayed in.

7 Q. We being you and your family?

8 A. Yes, my mom and I and my father.

9 Q. Okay. And you also talked about being stopped on your way to

10 Travnik. Now, the bus that you were in, that bus, was it filled with the

11 people that you had been in that school with? I think it's called

12 Grabovica?

13 A. Grabovica, yes, ma'am, as I mentioned before it was approximately

14 13 buses and the last bus was a bus filled with us from -- coming from

15 Grabovica.

16 Q. Okay. And as I understood it, you said that everything had been

17 taken out of your house so you had lost the possessions from your house

18 and when you were going with the fighting men - about 200 people, you

19 said, who were captured - the Serb soldiers who captured you had said,

20 take everything out of your pockets, don't even have a toothpick, I think

21 you said; right?

22 A. A needle.

23 Q. A needle, okay. And so at that point, when you were on the bus to

24 Travnik, you had no possessions at that time, did you?

25 A. No.

Page 19445

1 Q. Okay. Now, I think somebody asked if your mother -- I think

2 Ms. Korner asked if your mother had gone upstairs to visit your dad when

3 you were in the classroom in Grabovica, and I had understood that you were

4 separated from your mother and your mother never got to that school

5 because your mother went with the women and most of the children to

6 Travnik immediately from where the fighting had been; is that right?

7 A. That is correct. I was kind of surprised, too, because, as I

8 mentioned before, I left that night with my father and my mom stayed in

9 Vecici, which later on she left with all the civilians that morning when

10 we arrived I saw her in the bus with the rest of my family.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. She wasn't in Grabovica with me, no.

13 Q. And you talked about when your -- I think it was your uncle, maybe

14 it was your cousin, had come to get you to bring you to Vecici. Was it

15 your uncle or your cousin?

16 A. No. That was my brother.

17 Q. Oh, your brother?

18 A. Yeah. Actually I'll take that back. When I was in Garici my

19 cousin Akif Pasic he came, yeah, he came with two soldiers.

20 Q. He came with two Serb soldiers, right?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. And they had made a truce and an agreement; is that right?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. And your understanding was that if the people from your village,

25 which was Hrvacani, would return to Vecici, then the -- if the fighting

Page 19446

1 men surrendered there, that they would be safe and they would be exchanged

2 over to the other side; is that right?

3 A. No, ma'am.

4 Q. Do you want to think about that or did you want to --

5 A. I just -- I don't understand. Can you repeat that question?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I think you need to rephrase your

7 question.

8 MS. BARUCH: Okay.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And place it in a specific point in time. Because I

10 think that's what's confusing the witness.

11 MS. BARUCH: Okay.

12 For everybody, I'm looking at around page 7 of his statement.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So read from his statement straight away.

14 MS. BARUCH:

15 Q. The part of it I got wrong. When you -- it says we stayed at

16 Garici for a long time in the house of my cousin Atif by this time all the

17 villages in the area except for Vecici had fallen to Serbs four days

18 before --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Slow down, please.

20 MS. BARUCH: Sorry.

21 Q. Four days before Vecici fell we were sitting in Atif's house when

22 another cousin of ours, Akif, came. He was armed and looked terrible. He

23 had a beard and long hair and was untidy and there were two armed soldiers

24 with him who were waiting outside the house for him. He informed us that

25 we made an agreement with the Serbs that all refugees from Hrvacani had to

Page 19447

1 go to Vecici. He informed us that the next morning, we had to go to

2 Vrbanjci to get travel documents.

3 That part is correct; right?

4 A. That is correct, ma'am.

5 Q. And some place -- I thought I saw that you had said, and I can't

6 find it right now, that if the men at Vecici would then surrender at

7 Vecici, they would be exchanged, is that --

8 A. I never mentioned that.

9 Q. And you don't have knowledge of that.

10 A. No, I don't have knowledge.

11 Q. Okay. Throughout your journeys from your village to the other

12 villages that you went, there were Serb soldiers who helped you and the

13 women and at times even protected you; isn't that true?

14 A. That is true.

15 Q. And --

16 A. One soldier, I don't know his name. That was one soldier when we

17 came to Hrvacani. He was the kindest one in that particular group.

18 Q. But even when you left Vecici, when you were captured, there was a

19 soldier who said, "I guarantee you're not going to get hurt." Isn't that

20 true?

21 A. But he -- he was -- I guess he was in charge but what he

22 mentioned, he says, you -- what he meant -- I -- children and women, he

23 kind of guaranteed that we are not going to get hurt but what he says, but

24 your men, what he meant, father and rest of it, they will pay for this.

25 Q. Okay. He was talking about the fighting men but with regard to

Page 19448

1 the women and children, in the statement that I have, at least.

2 A. Right.

3 Q. It says, I guarantee that nothing will happen to you. And that

4 was for the women and the children?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. Who had accompanied the fighting men. So two times, two times,

7 people at least -- Serb soldiers were looking out that you wouldn't get

8 hurt or be killed?

9 A. Yeah, but what happened that night, that was the night when we

10 came to Grabovica but next morning we were beaten by.

11 Q. The women?

12 A. Local -- yes.

13 Q. And there were women there, you said they were Serb women, and I

14 think when you said they were dressed in black --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That was how you knew or assumed they were all Serb women, right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And they had axes in their hands and they were beating you with

19 wood but not with the axe head?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. And when you had to walk through there, one woman grabbed

22 you and she was distraught; wasn't she?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. She was crying and screaming and she said at that time that she

25 lost two sons?

Page 19449

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In Vecici and so she wanted to take her revenge on you because of

3 her loss; is that right?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. And at that point, a Serb soldier grabbed you and threw you in the

6 bus?

7 A. That's true.

8 Q. To keep her from being able to do anything, any harm to your body

9 with a knife; right? Is that a yes?

10 A. That is correct, ma'am.

11 Q. Okay. And when you were at Vecici, before you went over to

12 Grabovica, the Serb army separated the men fighters from the women and

13 children because the women who stayed there, like your mother, they were

14 going to go off to Travnik; is that right?

15 A. Can you repeat that, from Vecici to where?

16 Q. When you left Vecici --

17 A. Okay.

18 Q. -- the last time, you were going to that last town, Grabovica.

19 And before you left for Grabovica with the fighting men, the Serb soldiers

20 separated the men - the fighter people - from the women and children;

21 didn't they?

22 A. I don't recall that, because we left Vecici and Serbs didn't know

23 about this.

24 Q. They didn't know that you had left?

25 A. They didn't know but later on we found out that we had a man with

Page 19450

1 us who cooperated with the Serbs, but no, no.

2 Q. So you separated yourself out, that is the fighting men separated

3 themselves out and the women and children who were going to go off to

4 Travnik, like your mother --

5 A. Right.

6 Q. -- they stayed in Vecici?

7 A. That is correct.

8 Q. And the men, the fighting men, went through the woods, through the

9 forest?

10 A. Yeah, because we heard that convoys before us, the Serbs were

11 taking all the male boys -- I mean all the males away from females in

12 Banja Luka and also in Vlasic. That's why my father came to my mom and

13 told her to go with him because he was afraid that if I go with my mom, I

14 might get killed.

15 Q. Okay. He thought you might be mistaken for a fighting person?

16 A. That is correct, but --

17 Q. Okay. So because of that fear, your father suggested that you not

18 stay with the women and children, but that you go with him and with your

19 brother and with your uncle as they made their escape; is that right?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. Some women chose to go with them as well?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. Ten women, I think you said, that included two young girls?

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. And some boys of your age also accompanied the fighting men; is

Page 19451

1 that right?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Do you know where they were going at that time? Were they trying

4 to escape the Serb forces?

5 A. We were trying to go to -- for Travnik, definitely.

6 Q. So go on your own to Travnik not with the women who stayed behind?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Okay. By a different route. And I think at one point in your

9 statement, you said there were about 200 people who were walking with you

10 through the woods and forest with the fighting men; is that right?

11 A. I mentioned 200 people, ready to surrender in the tunnel, we

12 counted approximately 200 people when we were about to surrender.

13 Q. Okay?

14 A. But I don't know what happened to the other group or other people

15 because fighting was still going on on the other side of the river.

16 Q. Because some of the younger men decided to stop and make a stand

17 and fight with the Serbs; is that right?

18 A. That is right.

19 Q. So this Court would know that there were more than 200 people,

20 including the fighting men, who left with you and your father when you

21 left Vecici to go through the woods; is that right?

22 A. That's right. As I said before, it was a long line. I don't know

23 how many people in the line when we left Vecici.

24 Q. And those people who you left with, although you didn't have a

25 gun, many of the men who had been fighting in Vecici, many of those men

Page 19452

1 were still armed and they took their guns with them; correct?

2 A. I'd say yes.

3 Q. Okay. And in fact, you never counted the guns; did you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. But you know that there were a lot of guns because -- for two

6 reasons: One, one small group of young men decided to leave the bigger

7 group and make a stand and fight off the Serbs, so they had weapons;

8 correct?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. And when the Serbs finally captured you, after you came out of the

11 tunnel, those Serbs said, hold up your weapons and then said, put the

12 weapons on one side and the valuables on the other side, so you know that

13 there were weapons, many weapons, with you at the time, as you were

14 walking with those 200 people or hiding with the 200 people in that

15 tunnel.

16 A. I've seen some weapons but I don't know how many.

17 Q. Of course. Now, you talked about people who were collaborating

18 with the Serbs, some people who you noticed were on the radio. But I

19 thought you also said that it was a collective decision of that group of

20 200 people who had tried to escape through the woods, it was a collective

21 decision at that point to surrender to the Serbs. Is that right?

22 A. That's right. In our group was a plan who was collaborating with

23 Serbs. What I said, the way he was contacting Serbs, when we got ambushed

24 the second time, we saw him standing -- he was behind a tree and he was

25 talking on the radio with the Serbs. But later on, he was in our group,

Page 19453

1 which -- he escaped with us, and as a matter of fact, when we went to

2 Grabovica, one of the Serb soldiers came up to him and he says, nice job,

3 and he left Grabovica with us for Travnik.

4 Q. Okay. But despite this collaboration by that man, it was still a

5 collective decision of the group in the tunnel to surrender at that point;

6 is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. Is it correct, then, that your father and the men who left

9 Vecici with you, they didn't want to surrender to the Serbs, that wasn't

10 their intention when they left Vecici. It was their intention to escape

11 not to surrender?

12 A. Yes. That's true, because when Bilice got under control of Serbs,

13 we heard that all the fighters, Croats and some Muslims, gave their

14 weapons to the Serbs and they were beaten, they were taken to Banja Luka,

15 and some other concentration camps or whatever, that's why a lot of people

16 got afraid, that's why we escaped because we thought even though some

17 of -- most of us didn't have weapons. We thought if they captured

18 us -- because we were going to get killed.

19 Q. Let me just go back to that for a minute to make sure I understood

20 it. There were some Muslims from Vecici who had been captured. Is that

21 what you just said, and they had been brought to Banja Luka?

22 A. No. What I said when Bilice which was a last stand in Croat

23 standing in Kotor Varos before Vecici was under control, they finally gave

24 up -- surrendered, they gave up the weapons and everything. They got

25 promised, the Serbs promised them they going to be safe and they going to

Page 19454

1 leave for Travnik, but also some soldiers or, I say, men from surrounding

2 villages were in Bilice at that time and they left with Croat people, when

3 Bilice got under control of Serbs. But no, I don't know about Vecici

4 fighters or anybody that surrendered.

5 Q. Okay. So that's where the idea -- the misrecollection got in my

6 head that there was an offer, if you surrender, we'll exchange you for

7 other soldiers. That happened in Bilice where the Serbs said if you

8 surrender, we will let you go to Travnik, or exchange you for other BiH

9 prisoners; is that right?

10 A. I don't know about the exchanging but, yeah, they told people,

11 fighters, if you surrender, you going to be -- which happened, most of

12 them made it to Travnik.

13 Q. Okay?

14 A. But they never said anything about Vecici surrendering and if you

15 give up your weapon you're going to survive or anything.

16 Q. Okay. But because -- it was because of the fear of the Muslim

17 troops who were at Vecici, they didn't want to take the chance that they

18 wouldn't survive and that's why they tried to escape; is that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. That videotape that you saw today, have you ever seen that before?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay. There were places, would you agree, where the army of the

23 BiH was the aggressor during this war? I'm not talking about any of your

24 experience but there were places where the army of the BiH was the

25 aggressor. Would you agree with that?

Page 19455

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, wait before you answer.

2 Ms. Korner, yes.

3 MS. KORNER: I object to that question, Your Honour. We have been

4 over this again and again, tu quoque is not a Defence. The BiH Army may

5 have been the aggressor somewhere else in Bosnia. It's got nothing to do

6 with this witness or, indeed, nor do I think this witness is probably

7 capable of answering such a question.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection sustained. If you want to rephrase the

9 question in some other manner, Mrs. Baruch, I will allow it but --

10 MS. BARUCH: I think it was engendered by the words on the video

11 that the Court is going to ignore.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: It's better --

13 MS. BARUCH: Forget it.

14 Q. You said that you and your cousin were watching television,

15 watching the news on television, when your other cousin showed up in

16 Garici?

17 A. That is correct. I was watching news with my mom and other

18 cousin, yeah, that's correct.

19 Q. Do you remember what news station or where the transmission was

20 from that you were watching?

21 A. Local news from -- that was coming from Serb side.

22 Q. May I ask what you're studying?

23 A. Business management.

24 Q. Okay. And would it be correct that the -- again going back to

25 that mosque that we saw in the videotape, it's your understanding that

Page 19456

1 that mosque had been shelled during the shelling of Vecici; is that right?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. Okay. I was interested when I was reading your statement with

4 regard to your pointing out that some Muslim villages signed loyalty oaths

5 and gave up their arms. I'm not sure I have all of them down here, but

6 can you tell me the ones that you remember that had done that.

7 A. Cirkino Brdo, Nafici [phoen], Garici, Vakufci.

8 Q. I'm sorry, you were going to say?

9 A. That's it.

10 Q. And those villages where the people signed an oath that they were

11 not going to take up arms against the Serbs and gave up their arms, those

12 villages were safe for you and your mother to stay at; is that right?

13 A. Not really, because when we went to Cirkino Brdo, the first time

14 we went to Plitska and the food ran out and no water, a guy from Cirkino

15 Brdo, Hasin [phoen] village came over who gave a weapon or if he had it, I

16 don't know. But we lived in his house and when the Serbs find out that he

17 was feeding us from Hrvacani, then they told if they come back and find us

18 they are going to kill him and kill all of us so we decided to move back

19 to Plitska, Bilice.

20 Q. And I guess I worded that in a way I didn't mean to. Those

21 villages that gave up their arms and signed the loyalty oaths that they

22 would not fight with the Serbs, those villages were safe for those people?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. The thing that the Serbs didn't want them to do was to harbour

25 people from your village, Hrvacani, because your village had not, to your

Page 19457

1 knowledge, signed a loyalty oath; is that right?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. See, I mentioned they never -- I don't remember Serbs giving us an

5 opportunity to surrender.

6 Q. I understand that you were not aware of that. You're not saying

7 it didn't happen, you were just 14 years old at the time?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And you don't know of that; is that correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. I'm sorry, I don't know -- I think you said that's correct.

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Okay. Now your father, your father was with the fighting men, and

14 your father was with fighting men at -- help me with the names of the

15 places, Bilice?

16 A. No my father went first time when I saw him he was in Bilice and

17 that night he left for Vecici.

18 Q. Okay, but when you saw him at Bilice you said I think it was a

19 Croat place?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And a big place and there were people with lots of guns and your

22 father was there before you even got there and --

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. And your father and your brother were there and your father, to

25 your knowledge, had a gun; is that right?

Page 19458

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Okay. Now, your father had left you and your mother, he didn't

3 leave you and your mother so that he could go to a safer place; did he?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. You don't think your father would leave you at a less safe place

6 than he was going to; do you?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Okay. But every place that your father went with his gun, there

9 was fighting with the Serbs; is that true, like Bilice?

10 A. No. I never said he stayed in Bilice. He left when we were in

11 Bilice he left that night, as he came to us and he says, I'm going to

12 Vecici. He never was in Bilice but that day when we escaped from Hrvacani

13 and same day, same night, he left for Vecici and that's where he stayed

14 pretty much until we got out.

15 Q. But he was at Bilice when you went there, when you got there?

16 A. But that's only one day, because we escaped that morning with

17 shelling and for same day, you know, we got to Bilice.

18 Q. So did you have conversations with your father asking him

19 what -- where he had been and what he had been doing while he was away

20 from you?

21 A. No, I did not.

22 Q. Did you have conversations with your brother, with regard to where

23 he had been and what he had been doing while he was away from you?

24 A. I did not.

25 Q. Sometimes I hear your voice. I hear it and I understand you,

Page 19459

1 which I can't do with some witnesses, but I don't know if it's coming

2 through. And do you know if there had been fighting at Hrvacani -- your

3 village, Hrvacani?

4 A. Hrvacani.

5 Q. Hrvacani?

6 A. I don't know because I was in the basement with my mom and we were

7 gathering together. I have no idea because there was bombing and

8 shelling. I didn't walk out until the morning when my father came and

9 told us.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. So I don't know if fighting was going on or not.

12 Q. So while you're in the basement in your village of Hrvacani, your

13 father and brother were not with you?

14 A. That is correct, they were not with me.

15 Q. But you did hear shelling and shooting while you were in the

16 basement; correct?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. And when you got to Bilice, and your father was there, you could

19 see signs that there had been fighting there; is that right?

20 A. In Bilice?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Yes, because while -- I said yes, because when we walked there on

23 the Croat army had trenches and all that so --

24 Q. Okay. And of course, when you went to Vecici, there were lots of

25 signs that there had been fighting there and your father was fighting

Page 19460

1 there too; wasn't he?

2 A. I don't know if he was fighting.

3 Q. But he had witness there for quite a while?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I think you said --

6 A. That is true.

7 Q. Okay. You started out your statement talking about how you -- and

8 I think your cousin -- would be in your village, Hrvacani, which was up

9 higher than the other Serb villages in the area, and you would be looking

10 through binoculars to try to figure out what was going on at those

11 villages; is that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. May I ask you where you got your binoculars?

14 A. I got it from my father. As I mentioned before he was a hunter.

15 He had it.

16 Q. Okay. When you noticed activity in the villages around you, did

17 you go back and, of course, tell your father, the adult of your family,

18 what you had seen?

19 A. As I mentioned before, hodza was taking trip around the houses,

20 visiting houses, and that was the second day of your holiday, Bajram, and

21 they were already in the house, they knew what was going on, so we little

22 kids, as I was, you know, with other kids we were just watching and

23 nothing -- but I didn't talk to him and mention anything about, you

24 know --

25 Q. I understand that your father, as you just said, knew what was

Page 19461

1 going on, but certainly, if you saw something as important as interesting

2 and as anxiety-filling as you described what you saw, certainly you would

3 have reported that to an adult; wouldn't you?

4 A. Yes. I did talk to my nom and we were sitting in the house when I

5 said tanks were at Novakovo Brdo.

6 Q. So you and your cousin would be out looking through the binoculars

7 and then if you saw something interesting or exciting or dangerous you did

8 report it to an adult?

9 A. Yes, my mom.

10 Q. Okay. And I'm sorry I'm jumping around, I made notes as you were

11 talking, so I'm going in reverse order of your testimony. You were

12 talking about the elderly people who remained in your village of Hrvacani.

13 The first time that you left, when you say elderly, could you give me some

14 idea? Because from my standpoint, elderly could be different from your

15 standpoint.

16 A. Ibro Dugonjic who was killed, when we came back and we found him

17 burned. I would say he was approximately -- over 50 years old.

18 Q. That's what I meant.

19 A. But I don't know, I can't -- I don't know --

20 Q. The other people? Okay. And the person Dugonjic - is that what

21 his name was - that you found, that man was burnt inside his house when

22 you found him?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And many of the houses had been burnt; is that correct?

25 A. That is correct, ma'am.

Page 19462

1 Q. Did you find any sign that people had located him before his house

2 was burnt? Did you find any indication of that?

3 A. No, ma'am.

4 Q. Okay. You said as you were leaving your village, Hrvacani, the

5 first time, and you came to a lower area, there were snipers, there were

6 people who were shooting, and you crawled part of the way to avoid those

7 bullets. Do you know how many people were shooting?

8 A. I don't know but I know it was terrifying because they were

9 shooting trees above us, all the, you know, branches and all the leaves

10 and they were just falling down. But I don't know because two

11 directions -- I know for a fact that fire was coming from Novakovo Brdo

12 and Tepici.

13 Q. And do you know if there was any shooting closer to Hrvacani,

14 before you got to the dipping area? Not that you remember?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. It's logical that, as a young -- young man, you would remember the

17 part where you were actually in physical danger much more strongly; would

18 you agree?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. Was there a place in your village that people would go to

21 get information, public information; that is, someone was trying to

22 broadcast to the village and let me give you an example. I know when I

23 try to describe something sometimes it comes out more complicated.

24 Sometimes in a village there is a place where posters are put up, where

25 official notices get put. Was there a place like that in your village?

Page 19463

1 A. No, ma'am. I don't remember.

2 Q. Okay. Was there any official building in your village? I'm not

3 talking about religious buildings, I'm talking about official buildings,

4 like a -- I know it wasn't a municipality but a village centre, something

5 like that?

6 A. No, ma'am.

7 Q. Okay. So if somebody wanted to communicate with the men of your

8 town or the leaders of your -- sorry, village, Hrvacani - would those

9 leaders have to go some place else or --

10 A. Most of the time we go to mosque if we have something, we go to

11 mosque, especially on the Friday prayers, people gathered together and --

12 Q. But at the mosque, would there be women and children there as

13 well?

14 A. During the Friday's prayer, no, because women and children, they

15 are not allowed to attend Friday's praying but --

16 Q. Would you actually in a mosque conduct official business during

17 the prayer time?

18 A. No.

19 Q. I didn't think so.

20 A. Friday - this is a part of our religion - during the Friday, it's

21 called Dzuma. Women are not allowed to be in the mosque.

22 Q. Oh, I understood that and I accept that.

23 A. Okay.

24 Q. But my question was, you said you could get information at the

25 mosque but I'm trying to establish whether or not the men of the village

Page 19464

1 would conduct business during a prayer session at the mosque?

2 A. Oh, no. Normally when they have to talk about something, and if

3 something is going on, that's after the praying.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. After the prayer, yeah.

6 Q. And if the people from the municipality, Kotor Varos, wanted to

7 communicate with your -- the leaders of your village, how would that go

8 on? If you know. I know you were young at the time.

9 A. I have no idea.

10 Q. Okay. You said at the beginning of the Bajram holidays, a lot of

11 people gathered in your home, which was very large, and the men started

12 talking about who has guns, and your father at that point said that your

13 mother and you should leave the room.

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Did your father at -- frequently -- was it something usual for

16 your father and a social occasion like a religious holiday, to ask you and

17 your mother to leave the room?

18 A. I know we left the room. I don't know why. But he just told us

19 and I respect my father so when he says, don't do it, and go or something,

20 I do it as he said. But I don't know, I didn't want to argue with him or

21 anything.

22 Q. Okay. You started -- I guess my question was, was that something

23 your father would frequently tell you to do, go out of the room?

24 A. Well, if something is important, then I'll go but normally --

25 Q. Normally he didn't?

Page 19465

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. Okay. Now, you also started out your statement talking about

3 various attempts to contact your sister and Akif's sister. Do you know

4 why Akif was trying to call your sister Hamida?

5 A. Because he was at that time he was in our house, and we were

6 trying, and as a matter of fact, I tried to contact, and a lot of noises

7 and stuff going on. So I said something is wrong with the telephone and

8 then he asked, can I try it? So that's when he tried it and he says a lot

9 of interference, a lot of people are talking at the same time, and he

10 just -- we just wanted to call her and see how is she doing and what's

11 going on.

12 Q. And also, Akif's sister, who was living in Vrbanjci, called him.

13 Do you know what she was calling about?

14 A. I don't know why she called him, but she called him just to tell

15 him that two tanks were taking place in Vrbanjci and that she was having a

16 hard time to reach him. She just wanted to talk to him, I don't know.

17 Q. Okay. Akif, did he live in Vrbanjci?

18 A. No. He was -- he lived next house, next to mine. He was my

19 neighbour.

20 Q. Okay. And you talked about one occasion when a very heavily-armed

21 or more than one very heavily armed Serb soldiers walked through Hrvacani?

22 A. Hrvacani.

23 Q. Hrvacani. I think -- I think that you said in your statement that

24 they had a bet that nothing would happen to them if they walked through

25 your village. Is that what you heard?

Page 19466

1 A. That's what I heard.

2 Q. Who told you that?

3 A. People when we escaped to Plitska and people were talking so --

4 Q. Now your brother -- let me just ask about that. As a 14 year old,

5 why would you believe that the fact that the soldier bet, nobody in your

6 village was going to hurt him or do anything to him, as he walked through,

7 why would you believe that that action meant war?

8 A. I'm afraid I don't know why, but --

9 Q. But that's what you thought?

10 A. That's what I heard, they had a bet.

11 Q. Okay. And your brother, and I'm afraid -- wait a minute, I think

12 I wrote down his name, Ahmedin?

13 A. Ahmedin.

14 Q. Before the day of the fighting in your village, your brother was

15 actually in the military; is that right?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. And I think he must have told you this, because you wrote it in

18 your statement, that he left the military and he left his military

19 training, because people in your village were referring to him as a

20 Chetnik?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. He told you that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The people in your village didn't distinguish between a Muslim who

25 they knew who had grown up there, who was in the JNA, they didn't

Page 19467

1 distinguish enough to know that he wasn't a Chetnik?

2 A. Don't know.

3 Q. Okay. So I think that what you're saying is the people in the

4 village thought if anybody was in uniform and being in the army, they were

5 going to be Chetniks; is that right?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Okay. The villages, Tepici and Savici, that were quite close to

8 your village, they were actually below, because your village was the

9 highest on the hill; is that right?

10 A. Tepici was north of Hrvacani and they were on the same -- I'd say

11 low -- on the same level but Savici, they were a little lower and Novakovo

12 Brdo too.

13 Q. And you got concerned when you saw them building trenches; is that

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. Do you see trenches as a defensive manoeuvre or an

17 offensive manoeuvre, Mr. Pasic?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Okay. Vrbanjci is another village that you mentioned. I think

20 it's the one that your sister lived in or Atif's sister lived in. What

21 was the ethnicity of that village?

22 A. I'm sorry, can you repeat that.

23 Q. Okay. I know, I got lost in the name.

24 A. Okay.

25 Q. It's -- you said that Akif's sister who was living in Vrbanjci,

Page 19468

1 what was the ethnicity of that village?

2 A. Mainly it was a Muslim village but I know there were some Croats

3 and Serbs too but I don't know exactly.

4 Q. And about how far was it from Hrvacani?

5 A. Hrvacani.

6 Q. Hrvacani?

7 A. Five kilometres approximately.

8 Q. And you said one of the villages actually two of them, I think --

9 I'm sorry, Tepici and Savici were 100 per cent Serbs. Was Hrvacani 100

10 per cent Muslim?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. I'm wondering if you are related to a man named Ibrahim Pasic, a

13 history professor at Sarajevo university? Not to your knowledge?

14 A. No ma'am.

15 Q. I'm come to learn by reading your statement and other documents

16 that your name is pretty common. There are a lot of people with the name

17 Pasic; is that right?

18 A. Yes, maybe you mixed it up because I mentioned Ibrahim Pasic was

19 my cousin who got killed in Vecici.

20 Q. I did mix it up. I was wondering if that was your cousin but then

21 I realised your cousin had been killed. So I was just wondering, since

22 your father actually worked in Sarajevo, before the fighting began, if

23 maybe you also had some other relative by the name of Ibrahim Pasic who

24 was a professor at Sarajevo university. But if you don't know that's

25 fine?

Page 19469

1 A. No.

2 Q. You know for sure you don't or you just don't know?

3 A. I don't know Ibrahim Pasic, a professor, I have no idea.

4 Q. Okay. Do you know somebody named Sema Pasic?

5 A. No.

6 Q. How about Said Pasic?

7 A. Said Pasic?

8 Q. Let me tell you how I got that name.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to know the relevance, Ms. Korner?

10 MS. KORNER: I do, rather, particularly as it would be nice if the

11 witness could finish today. And it seems that asking irrelevant

12 questions --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the relevance of these questions.

14 MS. BARUCH: I have an exhibit here that I would like to offer

15 that indicates that Mr. --

16 MS. KORNER: Wait. I don't know what exhibit this is. I haven't

17 seen it.

18 MS. BARUCH: Fine, I will give it.

19 MS. KORNER: And before anything is given to the witness I'd like

20 to see what it is.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Obviously I'm not going to let the witness see it

22 before -- but what's the relevance -- first of all, I mean forget the

23 professor now because we have an answer about that, he doesn't know him

24 but it's not only the professor, then it's Said Pasic and so on and

25 what's -- what are you trying to get from the witness?

Page 19470

1 MS. BARUCH: I'm trying to find out if he knew this person that

2 became head of the War Presidency in Kotor Varos.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Even so, even if he did.

4 MS. KORNER: If he did, so what?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: What's going to change?

6 MS. BARUCH: Well, I think that this is -- I think that this is

7 pretty important and puts in context the situation in that area that there

8 was a War Presidency and I would be more than happy to let everybody see

9 my exhibits.

10 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour. I mean, that's -- the Defence case

11 is the time when they can put in all the evidence they want to to show

12 what else was going on, provided its relevant, but how is this witness who

13 was in Vecici for all of four days, and aged 14 at the time, supposed to

14 be able to comment on any of this?

15 MS. BARUCH: I'm trying to find out if he knew this person.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the name of this person?

17 MS. BARUCH: Said Pasic.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you ever heard of Said Pasic?

19 THE WITNESS: No, sir.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No.

21 MS. BARUCH:

22 Q. Do you know who was appointed to the War Presidency?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't answer that question. If you want to bring

24 evidence about the War Presidency bring it at the right time but not

25 through this witness.

Page 19471

1 MS. BARUCH: Okay.

2 Q. Would it be correct, Mr. Pasic, that there were many people from

3 your village who organised into military force to assist the Bosnian

4 forces?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Well, if I said some names, would you be in a position to know

7 whether or not you saw them at Vecici?

8 A. Go ahead.

9 Q. Okay. Namko Turan; do you know him?

10 A. No.

11 Q. I'll just say the names that I know and if you know somebody let

12 me know. Alija Mensil [phoen], Elmedin Turan, Garo [phoen] Turan, Sead

13 Mensil, Efem Mensil, Sakib Pasic, Akif Pasic, was that one of your

14 cousins?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And Ibrahim Pasic that was your cousin as well?

17 A. Yeah, who died.

18 MS. BARUCH: Your Honour, I have an exhibit here which is a

19 statement provided by the Prosecution that --

20 MS. KORNER: No.

21 MS. BARUCH: May I just finish telling you what I have.

22 MS. KORNER: Just a moment, not in front of the witness you may

23 not. One: The rule is that you should provide us in advance with the

24 exhibits you intend to use.

25 MS. BARUCH: It's your exhibit.

Page 19472

1 MS. KORNER: Two: I have already made objections to statements by

2 other witnesses being put in like this. It's not a proper way of leading

3 evidence.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: What do we have there, a statement by another

5 witness?

6 MS. BARUCH: This is an official document, apparently, listing the

7 people who were fighting at Vecici. I've gotten it from the Prosecutor

8 and I would like to put it in evidence.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But the procedure here is that you let us know --

10 not just us but the prosecuting officer also what documents you intend to

11 make use in the course of the testimony of -- in the course of your

12 cross-examination.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the document from where you are -- has it

15 been tendered in evidence already or not?

16 MS. BARUCH: I can't answer that, I'm sorry, because I have not

17 been here every day. I just know I got it from the Prosecutor and it's a

18 Banja Luka document from state security.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sure that's right. We have handed

20 over thousands of them. Your Honour it has to be something that the

21 witness himself can deal with. Anything else can either come in as part

22 of the Defence case or I'm sure we will be prepared to admit it if it's

23 relevant.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think at this point, the position that we must

25 take is the following: That the witness -- this is the starting point:

Page 19473

1 The witness has already told you, Mrs. Baruch, that he is not aware of any

2 such -- let's call it resistance group or whatever, in -- I go to the

3 previous page so that I get --

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, maybe I can cut this short. Can I see

5 the document, please, that you want to put in?

6 MS. BARUCH: Absolutely.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Your question before was, "Would it be correct,

8 Mr. Pasic that there were many people from your village who organised into

9 military force to assist the Bosnian forces?" And he answered, "I don't

10 know." So you might as well tender into exhibit -- into evidence a list

11 which purportedly shows who was organised in a military force.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour this is one of the so-called official

13 notes or statements taken by the Serbs and it's -- I object to its

14 admission in this form.

15 JUDGE JANU: It's not yours?

16 MS. KORNER: It's not one of yours. It's a document that was in

17 the Banja Luka CSB but it's actually -- it purports to be a statement

18 taken under whatever circumstances from someone which gives a list of

19 names.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's a statement by someone, by someone else,

21 no. I mean, and I think he's already answered you. He told you he's not

22 aware of any such military force. So for all intents and purposes, if you

23 want to make use of it at some later point in time, yes, by all means.

24 MS. BARUCH: Okay but I am confused about one thing since

25 Ms. Korner said that the only thing that can be offered is something about

Page 19474

1 which the witness himself was aware, then I didn't learn that lesson

2 because I see the Prosecutors do it over and over.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not go into this. Please, do you have any

4 further questions.

5 MS. BARUCH: Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: How many?

7 MS. BARUCH: Not many, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: It's already quarter to 2 and we can't keep anyone

9 here waiting and I don't like this because you should have made an effort

10 to finish with this witness now, this morning.

11 MS. BARUCH: If you just give me a second. I think I am finished

12 if you just give me a second.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. My apologies to the interpreters and

14 technicians and everyone but we will soon finish.

15 MS. BARUCH: Yes, I only have two little areas, Your Honour.

16 Q. The first was, when you were at Bilice, you saw not only your

17 father who you told this Court was just there for one day, although you

18 hadn't questioned him about where he had been but you also saw your

19 brother and your cousins, Nihad Mehmedalija, Sakib, Ibrahim, Mustafa and

20 your uncle Safik, and your neighbours Redzo Pasic and his sons and your

21 neighbour Alija and his brothers, Refik, Alija and Fazil, all there at

22 Bilice; is that right?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. Did you see all of those people with guns?

25 A. No, I didn't.

Page 19475

1 Q. Did all of those people go in the direction of Vecici?

2 A. I have no idea, ma'am.

3 Q. The second thing is you talked about somebody telling you in

4 Vecici that some people were killed at the hospital. The people who you

5 were told were in the hospital, those people had been fighters, isn't that

6 true?

7 A. That's not true, I don't know.

8 Q. You don't know if they were fighters?

9 A. No, I have no idea if they were fighters or not.

10 Q. And would it also be correct that you have no idea what was going

11 on immediately before they were killed? Is that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 MS. BARUCH: Okay. Those are my only questions. I pass the

14 witness, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Baruch. Thank you, Mr. Pasic.

16 And thank you on behalf of myself -- is there -- I don't think there is

17 any re-examination.

18 MS. KORNER: I would have stood up.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I apologise to you, Ms. Korner.

20 MS. KORNER: That's all right.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: We also had some questions to put but I don't think

22 we can keep anyone here.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think it's fair to say he's almost

24 certainly here tomorrow. If Your Honours do have questions you would like

25 to put. He will shall here tomorrow.

Page 19476

1 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I think the witness has been here long enough.

2 Mr. Pasic, on behalf of my own behalf and on behalf of Judge Janu and

3 Judge Taya and on behalf of the Tribunal generally, I should like to thank

4 you for having come over to give testimony which must have been difficult

5 for you. I realise that. You will receive all the assistance you require

6 to enable you to return to your country at the earliest possible

7 opportunity, occasion. And may I on behalf of everyone wish you a safe

8 journey back home, thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Tomorrow we start with BT95.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, start and go on I think with BT95.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The day after too.

13 MS. KORNER: The day after and if necessary into Friday. Your

14 Honour, can I put it this way, make it absolutely clear now, he's another

15 one of those witnesses who will not be proofed. He's a witness that we

16 say is capable of telling the truth about somethings and undoubtedly

17 Mr. Ackerman, if he's cross-examining, will want Your Honour to warn him

18 about the questions.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I got you.

20 MS. KORNER: I want to make that absolutely clear. Your Honour,

21 I'm proposing to put in the transcript of the interview as an exhibit but

22 I need to go through the areas.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I still have to read whatever we have because I

24 haven't read anything as yet so --

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we will get you copies of the interview,

Page 19477

1 if you have not got it already.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't received anything. This is what I'm

3 saying, I have not read anything as yet.

4 MS. KORNER: All right, Your Honour we will make sure you get

5 copies of the interview this afternoon.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

7 MS. BARUCH: Do we have them? May I just inquire, do we have

8 them?

9 MS. KORNER: Yes, you do.

10 MS. BARUCH: Okay. Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's only -- I'm speaking for myself because I have

12 not consulted my two colleagues as yet.

13 MS. KORNER: Can you make sure that Mr. Ackerman gets that list of

14 documents so that we don't have any problem about he doesn't have them.

15 Some of them are new disclosures so he'll have to check that, please.

16 Some of them are already in the exhibit binder.

17 MS. BARUCH: Fine. I will discuss that with you after court,

18 Ms. Korner.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

21 1.53 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

22 the 15th day of July, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

23

24

25