1 Friday, 1 August 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: We are just two of us today. The Asian element is
8 THE REGISTRAR: Not yet.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Not yet, yes. And I actually am invoking the
10 provisions of the rules which enable us to sit today just the two of us.
11 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please?
12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours,
13 this is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam.
15 Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Are you receiving
16 interpretation in the language that you can understand?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I am
18 getting the interpretation in a language I understand.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: If there is any problem at any time let me know,
20 Mr. Brdjanin. Please sit down.
21 Appearances for the Prosecution?
22 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Anna Richterova, assisted by Denise
23 Gustin case manager. Good morning, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, too.
25 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin?
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman with
2 Aleksandar Vujic for Mr. Brdjanin.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. Good morning to you,
4 too. Any preliminaries? I suppose no. Nothing.
5 Good morning to you, sir.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Hopefully you will be out of this courtroom within a
8 relatively short time. Let's hope so. It also depends on how short your
9 answers will be. So before we proceed, may I ask you to repeat your
10 solemn undertaking, please?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 WITNESS: MILORAD DODIK [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Dodik, please take a chair and
16 Mr. Ackerman will proceed with and conclude his cross-examination.
17 Mr. Ackerman.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman: [Continued]
20 Q. Good morning.
21 A. Good morning.
22 Q. When we broke yesterday I was getting ready to talk to you a
23 little bit about media. We've heard a great deal about the radio and
24 television and newspapers that were controlled by Serbs. I wonder if you
25 ever had occasion during 1991 and 1992 to listen to any, read any of the
1 media from Croatian or Muslim sources?
2 A. I said earlier on that the media acted as propaganda of the ruling
3 structure on all sides. This was almost the rule. I did have occasion to
4 hear Croatian and Bosnian reports, and the programmes were designed
5 virtually in an identical fashion, even though the contents differed of
7 Q. Did the Croatian or Muslim media use any kind of derogatory
8 terminology to describe Serbs during that period?
9 A. Yes. That was customary. All three sides used derogatory terms
10 to describe the others. The Serbs called the Bosniaks Turks, the Croats
11 Ustashas, and the Croatian and Bosniak sides called the Serbs Chetniks.
12 Q. You said at one point this: You said: "We could not trust the
13 Muslims living amongst us because it was only a matter of time before they
14 would join the Muslim forces."
15 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. Could I have the page of the LiveNote?
16 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think it's in the LiveNote.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say that. I didn't say
18 that anywhere.
19 MR. ACKERMAN:
20 Q. Okay. Let me just see if I can find where I got it. I got it
21 from -- I thought it was in your recorded interview, but it's not.
22 A. That is an absolute misinterpretation. I couldn't possibly have
23 made such a statement.
24 Q. I trust you with regard to what you're saying right now. I really
25 do. I will just tell you that I have the investigator's notes from your
1 various interviews with Mr. Tieger. And I can only tell you what the note
2 says. "The idea that was explicitly expressed" --
3 MS. KORNER: Page please.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Page 8 next to the last paragraph.
5 Q. "The idea that was explicitly expressed was that Serbs must live
6 in continuous territories, that they must stick to each other. We could
7 not trust the Muslims living amongst us because it was only a matter of
8 time before they would join the Muslim forces."
9 Now, that's what the investigator reports that you said, but of
10 course it's your position that you did not say that and I accept that.
11 A. I thought we had cleared up the matter of these notes.
12 Q. Please understand that I am only referring to these notes to ask
13 you if in fact you said some of the things that are reported to have been
14 said by you here, not to suggest that you did or to accuse you in any way
15 of saying these things. But that's one of the sources of information I
16 have, and that's what I'm doing with it. Do you understand what I mean?
17 A. I did talk to Mr. Tieger and other gentlemen, and I presented
18 certain assessments which I'm ready to repeat here. However, certain
19 things that appeared in those documents could be due to poor
20 interpretation or something else. In any event, please feel free to ask
21 me anything you wish and I will give you my answers.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the witness is being very frank and very
23 reasonable, Mr. Ackerman.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: I do too, and I fully accept what he's saying,
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
2 MR. ACKERMAN:
3 Q. I also have some investigator's notes of a conversation you had
4 with Ms. Korner. You know that I've got the notes from your conversations
5 with Tieger and from Korner and the notes that were made by investigators
6 during those conversations.
7 Now, I think this particular issue, you even alluded to in your
8 testimony yesterday, but I'm not certain about that. But at page 2,
9 Ms. Korner, of the notes of your conversation with Mr. Dodik, there
10 appears language that: "Karadzic stated publicly that he wanted activity
11 of the ARK stopped. He was in conflict with the people here in Banja
12 Luka. They became renegades and not under Radovan Karadzic's control, as
13 they wanted the national and political power here."
14 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt
15 again. I do think selective quotations from a full answer is not on. In
16 order for the witness fully to understand the context of what he said, I
17 think the rest should be read. I know Mr. Ackerman will say I can read
18 it, but I think that's wrong in principle. I think if he wants to read
19 that, he should read the full answer because there is further answer on
20 the same topic. At page 2.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have no desire to read any more than
22 I read. That's the part I'm interested in directing to the witness' --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Provided the witness has in front of him the text of
24 the investigator's notes.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I doubt that --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have the text, so I cannot
2 comment on it. But in answer to your question, that is, whether the
3 leadership in Krajina was to some extent in political conflict with
4 Karadzic and his structure, I can say it was, and this is common
5 knowledge. And there is no need to keep coming back to that.
6 MR. ACKERMAN:
7 Q. My real question was: Do you recall Karadzic saying publicly that
8 he wanted the activity of ARK stopped. And if you do recall that, can you
9 recall about when he said that?
10 A. I think this was at a parliamentary session of Bosnia and
11 Herzegovina which was being held on the same day or about the same day,
12 that is what he said. Now, what he did after that, I really don't know.
13 Q. The same day as what? I mean, can you get us some kind of a time
14 fix on it? Was it in 1992 sometime or when?
15 A. I think it was at the beginning of 1992 but I can't tell you
16 exactly, but I do know that it happened.
17 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, I am finished with any reference to
18 any of these notes, so we don't have to worry about that anymore. I want
19 to talk just very briefly, we should get through this fairly quickly --
20 A. Mr. Ackerman, I'm not worried. But I have really come here to
21 tell the Court what I have to say and there is no need for you to keep
22 referring me back to those notes.
23 Q. All right. Thank you. I'm going to talk to you a little bit
24 about some of your testimony yesterday, and I think we can probably get
25 through this fairly rapidly. Page 20, line 15 of yesterday's LiveNote:
1 "SDA had a Patriotic League preparing for an armed conflict."
2 Can you tell us about when you became aware that there was a
3 Patriotic League preparing for an armed conflict?
4 A. The armed conflict engaged in by the Patriotic League occurred
5 first in Bosanski Brod. I think it was in February, 1992. But there was
6 awareness of the existence of the Patriotic League as early as the end of
8 Q. And did that include an awareness that they were preparing for an
9 armed conflict? That's the -- that's kind of the heart of my question.
10 A. There was talk of the Patriotic League. I can only say, as an
11 assumption, that it could be felt in the air, that the ruling parties at
12 the time were arming the people, this applies to the SDA, the SDS, and the
13 HDZ, and that within that framework, preparations were being engaged in
14 for what they called the defence of their own people. That is my
15 knowledge regarding the Patriotic League.
16 Q. Would you say that it was -- that this was a generally known
17 matter in late 1991, early 1992, that the Patriotic League existed and
18 that people were being armed in preparation for an armed conflict within
19 this Patriotic League? Was that a generally known thing?
20 A. There were many generally known things. This one among others.
21 Q. And just give me your best impression. Were these arming
22 activities going on independently of each other, between the various
23 groups, or was the arming that went on among the Serbs a reaction to what
24 was going on in the Patriotic League?
25 A. All sides were arming themselves in great haste. Mostly out of
1 fear of one another.
2 Q. You talked yesterday in response to some questions from Ms. Korner
3 about discipline within the ranks of the SDS, and you told us that someone
4 who openly disagreed with SDS policy would be punished and termed a
5 traitor and disciplined in some way. Can you name anyone, and
6 specifically from the Krajina area, who was disciplined because of their
7 disagreement with SDS policy?
8 A. In those days, or generally speaking for the whole period?
9 Q. In those days, I'm talking about late 1991 and through the fall of
11 A. I can confirm that the SDS was a compact, well-structured
12 organisation in which the hierarchy was respected. And I do know that
13 differing views, even though they wanted to present themselves as a
14 democratic party, were not really tolerated, especially not at that time.
15 And still less was their tolerance for behaviour that could be interpreted
16 as not being in conformity with the policy of the party. I can't remember
17 a single name but there were many people in the past who were in the SDS
18 and because they acted differently, they left the party. I think that
19 Mr. Brdjanin himself left the SDS later on.
20 Q. We talked yesterday about Brdjanin's continuing starting, starting
21 very early on and continuing opposition to Pale regarding where the seat
22 of government should be, and his continual opposition to Pale in that
23 regard. And you just mentioned what I was getting ready to ask you. He
24 was, in fact, kicked out of parliament and kicked out of the party, was he
25 not, for his complaining in the parliament about war profiteering?
1 A. Yes. Correct. But I think Mr. Brdjanin left the party himself,
2 but I'm not sure of that.
3 Q. All right. In fact, he wound up forming his own party, didn't he,
4 at one point?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. I want you to look at an exhibit that you saw yesterday, and just
7 ask you some questions about it, it's P117. Now, I don't know if you've
8 had a chance, Mr. Dodik, to actually read this entire document or if
9 you've just been directed to various parts of it. But the question I have
10 for you is this: On 27 February, 1992, an interview is being conducted of
11 Mr. Brdjanin and Mr. Krajisnik. Krajisnik at that time was probably one
12 of the top three most powerful people in the SDS. Would you agree with
14 A. Yes. He was a strong man of the SDS.
15 Q. And would you also agree that what was going on in this interview
16 was in many ways a dispute between Brdjanin and Krajisnik where Brdjanin
17 is disagreeing with him and he's disagreeing with Brdjanin about two or
18 three matters?
19 A. I haven't managed to read the whole text of the interview because
20 it's a poor photocopy, but in any event, yes, it is visible that views
21 differed, their views differed.
22 Q. Yes. And Brdjanin was in effect in this public interview of 27
23 February, 1992, diverging from the SDS line and the SDS policy, wasn't he?
24 A. Yes. That can be seen in the positions that are reviewed here.
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. Later on, Karadzic came to Banja Luka to discipline the Banja Luka
2 organisation, and after that, the organisation came under the direct
3 control of the top leadership in Pale.
4 Q. And do you know when that was?
5 A. I know it was around those days and months, maybe May 1992.
6 Q. Even after, even after Karadzic visited Banja Luka, Brdjanin
7 continued to agitate about the seat of government being in Banja Luka and
8 continued to oppose Pale in that regard, didn't he?
9 A. I said yesterday that this was a continuous effort on his part
10 throughout those years.
11 Q. Ms. Korner asked you yesterday why Brdjanin was made president of
12 the Crisis Staff instead of Kupresanin, and I think what you told us was
13 that you really didn't know. Let me ask you the other side of that
14 question: Do you know why Kupresanin was made president of the ARK
15 assembly instead of Brdjanin?
16 A. I said earlier on that I was not a part of those structures. I
17 can just assume that this was part of an agreement among them, and I think
18 that it wouldn't have been possible otherwise, but I really can't say.
19 Q. Were you aware that there was a great deal of opposition to
20 Brdjanin from some of the more powerful municipalities that were part of
21 ARK? Were you aware of that?
22 A. I don't remember.
23 Q. Did you ever hear of the Sanska Unska group of municipalities and
24 their efforts to get Mr. Brdjanin replaced as head of the Crisis Staff by
25 Mr. Kupresanin?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Well, I don't know about that specifically, but I do know that
2 there was some kind of an informal group that operated informally. And I
3 think that the MPs from those municipalities acted in a homogenous manner
4 and they acted homogenously in various places.
5 Q. That's the next thing I wanted to discuss with you actually, so we
6 have got a good introduction into it. You told us yesterday about strong
7 local individuals, and you mentioned in Prijedor Mr. Drljaca. And I'm
8 wondering if you're aware of some others who were strong individuals. I'm
9 wondering if you would feel that way about Gojko Klickovic, for instance,
10 in Krupa?
11 A. Yes. Practically every municipality had a clearly distinguishable
12 strong individual. In Bosanska Krupa, in addition to Gojko Klickovic, it
13 was also MP Vijestica. And in Sanski Most, for example, a strong
14 individual was Mr. Rasula.
15 Q. How about Kljuc? Do you know anybody there that had that kind of
16 a position?
17 A. I think there was someone, but I can't remember the name now.
18 Q. Would I be wrong in concluding that what you're really saying to
19 this Trial Chamber about what happened in late 1991 and 1992 in terms of
20 the lines of authority was that it was based more on personality than it
21 was on structure? For instance, many of these powerful persons in these
22 municipalities were persons who had a very close relationship with
23 Karadzic and would naturally deal directly with Karadzic rather than with
24 someone like Kupresanin or Brdjanin? Is that what you're saying?
25 A. I want to say that at local levels, there were strong individuals
1 who comprised this strong structure of the party. And I can confirm that
2 these people attached greater importance to Karadzic and his authority
3 than they would have attached to anyone at regional level.
4 Q. All right. I want to finally ask you about four camps: Omarska,
5 Keraterm, Trnopolje and Manjaca. Now, the first three that I've
6 mentioned, Omarska, Keraterm, Trnopolje, those three were all located
7 within the Prijedor municipality, weren't they?
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not understand the
9 answer. Could the witness please be asked to speak up.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, sir. Could you repeat your answer because the
11 interpreters didn't catch up with you. Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a well-known thing. These
13 places do belong to the Prijedor municipality.
14 MR. ACKERMAN:
15 Q. Were you aware, did you ever become aware, that Manjaca was termed
16 at least a prisoner of war camp and operated exclusively by the military,
17 the 1st Krajina Corps?
18 A. In the media, there were situations in which a large number of
19 members of the Croatian Army were arrested and sent to Manjaca. A few
20 days later or in that period, there was a convoy, a large convoy of buses
21 who -- that drove these people from Manjaca to Croatia and they went
22 through the place where I lived. And that's how I was aware of these
23 buses. I don't know how many buses were involved but it was known at the
24 time that these were people who had been at Manjaca and that they were now
25 being transferred to Croatia. They were not only Croatian soldiers, there
1 were probably others involved as well.
2 Q. My question, though, was: Were you aware that Manjaca was under
3 control of the 1st Krajina Corps and run as an army POW camp?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You told us yesterday that you first learned about the existence
6 of various camps when Mr. Kouchner came to Banja Luka to investigate press
7 reports about the existence of the camps. My question is, I'm sure you
8 don't know the exact date but it would have had to have been after the
9 existence of the camps was publicised in the international press, wouldn't
11 A. I think that it was Mr. Kouchner. When he came to the airport
12 then, it was said and I confirmed it yesterday, that he said that there
13 were certain indications, that there was a camp there, and that he came to
14 talk to the authorities in that region in Banja Luka, in Prijedor, about
15 this. I know that he was met by Mr. Vukic at the airport at the time, as
16 a representative of the authorities. After that, I don't know anything
17 what happened. I just heard that there was the possibility of the
18 existence of some camps.
19 Q. He specifically mentioned that he was there because of press
20 reports regarding the camps, didn't he?
21 A. Yes, yes. He said that media in the west were saying that he came
22 on behalf of the Doctors without Borders or some other organisation to
23 check these allegations. And I've already said that I was there when he
24 came but afterwards I was not with him at all, so I don't know anything
25 about that, whether he actually established this to be a fact or not. I
1 really don't know anything about that.
2 Q. And as you told us yesterday, the real specific details about
3 these camps you only learned after the war was over. Correct?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. During those early months of 1992, May, June, July, the existence
6 of those camps was not a generally known thing, was not something that
7 people were talking about, or to your knowledge, knew about, generally?
8 A. No. It wasn't discussed very much. You have to bear in mind that
9 local communities were quite isolated from one another, so many things
10 that were going on in Prijedor were things that people didn't know about
11 in the place where I lived. There was a psychosis of fear and of
12 impending war and of course there were a lot of rumours that were going
13 around, but I told you when I first heard of this. I don't know. I've
14 never been there myself. I never went even after the war. But my
15 knowledge in this respect is linked to this visit paid by Mr. Kouchner at
16 the time. At assemblies where I was present, there was no mention of
18 Q. Don't you think that Drljaca and other authorities in Prijedor
19 involved in this would have wanted to keep the existence of those Prijedor
20 camps a secret? Don't you think that's what they would have wanted to do?
21 A. I cannot interpret their intentions. I never spoke to them. I've
22 already said what the situation was like.
23 Q. I'd like you to look at an exhibit, P1237, please. Sir, this is a
24 document dated 31 May of 1992 from the public security station Prijedor,
25 and it appears to have been signed by Simo Drljaca. And I want to draw
1 your attention to a few parts of it. I think the first part that is of
2 interest is the first paragraph. "With a view to the speedy and effective
3 establishment of peace on the territory of Prijedor municipality, and in
4 accordance with the decision of the Crisis Staff, I hereby order the
5 following." And then there is a list of things that are ordered by
6 Drljaca and specifically I'd like you to look at paragraphs 13, 15 and
8 The document basically sets up and creates the camp at Omarska at
9 the Omarska mine, and so the paragraphs 13, 15, and 16 relate to that.
10 Paragraph 13 says that: "All authorised officials who have been assigned
11 duties at this collection centre or related to it shall observe the
12 positive legislation and rules of service, in particular they must keep
13 official secrets and protect the property in their charge." Then if you
14 look at 15, he becomes more explicit about that: "I most strictly
15 prohibit giving any information whatsoever concerning the functioning of
16 this collection centre. All official documents shall be kept at the
17 collection centre and may be taken out or destroyed only with the
18 permission of the chief of the Prijedor public security station. This
19 shall be the responsibility of the security staff." And then finally in
20 16, he says: "I demand most energetically that all the personnel and
21 authorised officials in particular strictly observe these instructions.
22 Failure to do so shall result in severe disciplinary and other measures."
23 Now, clearly, this was an effort on behalf of Drljaca to keep
24 secret the Omarska camp, wasn't it?
25 A. Of course this is the first time I see this document. Of course,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
13 and French transcripts.
1 I don't wish or want to speak about its authenticity. I cannot check
2 that. I've already said that I cannot make any comments in this regard.
3 But on the basis of what is written here, it is clearly stated that what
4 was prohibited was prohibited in item 15.
5 Q. And with regard to what you've said about the position of
6 Mr. Drljaca, his powerful position, it would have not been wise for
7 persons to ignore his directive regarding the keeping of this secret and
8 to ignore his warning that failure to do so would result in severe
9 disciplinary and other measures, would it?
10 A. That can be seen from what is written here.
11 Q. Mr. Dodik, I want to thank you so much for coming here and trying
12 to help us understand some of the issues in this case. I hope you have a
13 pleasant trip home, and I have no further questions for you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.
15 Ms. Korner has -- is going to re-examine you on some issues raised
16 during Mr. Ackerman's cross-examination.
17 Re-examined by Ms. Korner:
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner.
19 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Mr. Dodik, yesterday, in answer to questions by Mr. Ackerman, you
21 quoted, as so many others have, the sentence of Mr. Izetbegovic that he
22 was ready to sacrifice peace in Bosnia for an independent Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina. Who was going to disturb the peace, Mr. Dodik?
24 A. I don't quite understand the question, but in my opinion, peace
25 was disturbed then by the ruling nationalist parties that were speedily
1 arming everyone and pursuing the kind of policy that led to an armed
2 conflict. Mr. Karadzic's speeches in parliament in those days in those
3 times are well known and at one point he said that if there is a war, the
4 entire Muslim nation could disappear or something like that. And at the
5 same time, this statement made by Mr. Izetbegovic was made as well. The
6 representatives of the Croat political parties were not lagging behind in
7 this respect either. They were creating such an atmosphere that it was
8 impossible to pinpoint one single perpetrator, at least in my opinion,
9 everybody, all the representatives of the then national oligarchies had a
10 hand in this.
11 Q. I was about to ask you, were you present on the 15th of October,
12 when Mr. Karadzic made his speech to the assembly?
13 A. Yes, I was present.
14 Q. When he said to the assembly, to the Muslims, the Croats, "Please
15 take it seriously. It is not good what you are doing. This is the road
16 you want Bosnia and Herzegovina to take, the same highway of hell and
17 suffering that Slovenia and Croatia went through. Don't think you won't
18 take Bosnia and Herzegovina to hell and the Muslim people to possible
19 extinction. Because the Muslim people will not be able to defend itself
20 if it comes to war." Do you remember those words?
21 A. I remember that speech made by Mr. Karadzic but I do not remember
22 every single word, of course. I do know though that he spoke to that
23 effect, yes.
24 Q. And the fact was, wasn't it, that the Muslims and Croats wanted
25 the referendum on independence and the Serbs didn't?
1 A. It was a fact. You have to bear in mind that already then, there
2 was significant fighting in Croatia, in the end of 1991 there was quite
3 literally a war that was being waged in Croatia and this had a
4 considerable influence over the behaviour of quite a few people in
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is correct, though, that some wanted the
6 referendum and others did not.
7 Q. Let's concentrate on the question I asked. The Croats and
8 Muslims, as we saw in February of 1992, voted in favour of independence.
9 That's right, isn't it?
10 A. They voted -- I mean, are you referring to the assembly?
11 Q. I'm referring now to the actual referendum that was held.
12 A. The referendum, yes. Yes. That was the outcome that was made
14 Q. And it was always clear, wasn't it, to you and to the SDS that if
15 a referendum was held, the Muslims and Croats would vote in favour of
16 independent Bosnia?
17 A. It was clear, when the decision was made in order to have this
18 referendum organised. I already said that the representatives of the
19 Bosniaks and the Croats in parliament were in favour of the referendum,
20 whereas the representatives of the Serbs were not.
21 Q. And the threats to disturb the peace that Mr. Izetbegovic was
22 talking about came entirely from the SDS, through Mr. -- Dr. Karadzic,
23 didn't they?
24 A. I've already said that I think that in different ways and at
25 different levels, everybody contributed to that. That is to say, to
1 disturbing the peace, namely the SDS, the SDA and the HDZ.
2 Q. I know that's what you said, Mr. Dodik, but I'm asking you, isn't
3 the reality that the only threats to disturb the peace in Bosnia were
4 coming from the SDS party?
5 A. That was not my experience of it and I don't think that's the way
6 it was. I think it was the way I put it earlier.
7 Q. All right. Now, you said to Mr. Ackerman yesterday that the
8 Serbs -- let me just put to you the exact words you used -- page 53, "most
9 Serbs in those days considered it to be quite normal that they should be
10 in the community of Serbia as the motherland and that the form of order
11 for Bosnia-Herzegovina should be such that it should remain in a community
12 in a -- in an agreed community with Serbia and the other republics wishing
13 to remain within Yugoslavia."
14 By the end of 1991, the only republics left in Yugoslavia were
15 Serbia, and Montenegro and Bosnia; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And so the desire -- I'm sorry, you wanted to say something else?
18 A. The -- what was said yesterday had to be corrected in the
19 transcript, so I want to say it once again. At that time in the end of
20 1991, at least this was my experience and that's why I joined the
21 parliament of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bosnia-Herzegovina
22 was supposed to be redefined and there should be a new agreement among the
23 political factors in Bosnia-Herzegovina. In Bosnia-Herzegovina together
24 with the other republics, primarily with Serbia, was supposed to stay on
25 in some kind of a community that would be a continuation of Yugoslavia.
1 Serbs did feel that Serbia was their motherland but I have to say once
2 again that I'm convinced that by the end of 1991, there were obvious
3 attempts made in Bosnia-Herzegovina to seek an alliance with Serbia.
4 Q. Right. That's all I'm asking you, Mr. Dodik. Effectively the
5 desire to remain in Yugoslavia expressed by the Serbs was a desire to
6 remain with Serbia?
7 A. And other republics who wished to do so. Montenegro, at that time
8 people were counting on Macedonia too, that it would go through a process
9 that would definitely end in Macedonia's joining that union too. There
10 are well-known attempts that were made in that direction.
11 Q. All right. Now, you told -- Mr. Ackerman was asking you about
12 Mr. Brdjanin yesterday, this is --
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think my LiveNote is out, so to
14 coincide with Mr. Ackerman's it would be page 60, that you were asked what
15 you meant by your answer that you and Brdjanin were in conflict, and you
16 said, "We were in different political parties, that's the conflict I
17 meant." And you were then asked you were just speaking of the fact that
18 you were in different parties -- that were you in a different party from
19 him and you said, "Yes, and we had different political organisations and
20 therefore we had different views regarding certain matters."
21 Can I ask on what matters you and Mr. Brdjanin had different
22 views, please?
23 A. I said yesterday and I can confirm today, that the party that I
24 belonged to believed that negotiations should be persisted upon and that a
25 certain solution should be found at the green table, as it is usually put,
12 Pages blanches insérées aux fins d’assurer la correspondance entre la
13 pagination anglaise et la pagination française.
1 and that this was the future of Bosnia-Herzegovina. At that time, the SDS
2 pursued a different policy, and it was obvious that through the formation
3 of regional organisations, they wished to pursue that and we as a party
4 disagreed with that. We thought that the situation should not be made
5 even more troublesome, that an agreement should be reached on the future
6 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and then the restructuring of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
7 That was the main point.
8 Also we as a party advocated the preservation of Yugoslavia. When
9 we realised that was no longer possible, then as you could see from the
10 documents that were presented yesterday, a group of people and I left this
11 party and we tried to be politically rational and loyal and in this way to
12 contribute to stabilisation as much as possible and also to averting the
13 danger of a war.
14 Q. Well, that's a long answer, sir, and I'm not sure it is an answer
15 to the question that I asked. You say that they pursued a different
16 policy, that is to say, the SDS, and it was obvious through the
17 regional -- I think you said the creation of regional organisations they
18 wished to pursue that and we disagreed with that. What was the different
19 policy? What was the creation of the regional organisations symptomatic
21 A. Well, symptomatic or not, it meant a new structure within
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina itself. On the one hand, it was supported. On the
23 other hand, it was not supported. For example, the idea of an independent
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina was not supported by the Serbs. So this only made the
25 situation even more complicated and we thought, we as a party, thought
1 that we should abstain, that everybody should be abstain from any kind of
2 new solutions that would complicate the situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina
3 even further.
4 Q. I'm sorry, sir. You still haven't answered the question. What in
5 your view was the purpose of the creation of these regional organisations?
6 A. Your Honours, I think that I answered that question yesterday. I
7 said that this was a reaction in the conditions in which people lived,
8 namely there was already a war in Croatia and also in Krajina, and it was
9 motivated by these developments, at least that's how it was presented in
10 public. That is to say, organising the Serb people in these areas. On
11 the other hand, I said that this constituted a new political, territorial
12 segment in the very existence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that was promoted
13 by the SDS. However it was not accepted by the SDA and the HDZ. Also,
14 likewise, the concept of independent Bosnia-Herzegovina was not espoused
15 by the SDS, and I cannot give a more precise answer than that.
16 Q. All right. Well, you see, do you remember saying at an earlier
17 stage, when you were seen, that the purpose was for the regional
18 institutions to gather the municipalities together, where the Serbs were a
19 minority, or where they belonged, Serbs gathered to protect themselves?
20 A. They were a majority and in some municipalities where they were a
21 minority, joined these communities later, at a later stage.
22 Q. All right. I'm sorry, sir, I know you say this is what the
23 setting up of the regions was because of what happened in Croatia but what
24 I want to know is what was the part about the setting up of these regional
25 organisations that you as a party or you personally disapproved of?
1 A. We didn't agree because that was another step contributing to the
2 complexity of the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina. We didn't agree
3 because as I said those regional organisations were not supported by
4 everyone and they were an additional cause of conflict in
6 Q. Why were they an additional cause of conflict in
8 A. Because the concept of the SDA and the HDZ was a unitary Bosnia
9 and Herzegovina and they wanted to promote such a structure of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, whereas on the other hand, SDS wanted a decentralised
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina and tried to set up those institutions. I shall come
12 back to another assertion I made that we felt at the time that that should
13 not have been done as it further complicated the situation. Both the
14 concepts of regionalisation and the unitary concept. These were concepts
15 that could not find approval throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina.
16 Q. All right. I'm going to have one last go at this. Is your
17 objection that there was another level of authority being set up on a
18 regional basis which detracted from the authority, as you call it the
19 unitary authority, the authority of the republican government?
20 A. Yes. That was certainly a new segment in the territorial
21 political structure of Bosnia-Herzegovina that had authority in BH, but it
22 is highly questionable to what extent the authorities in
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina had legitimacy as they were not supported by everyone
24 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, all the peoples of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 Q. All right. Now I want to deal with a couple of other matters.
1 You were asked about saying that Brdjanin was, as you put it, crazy, and
2 he was the public -- "he took our public face. Radic conducted the
3 policy. That's why the international community went to where the power
4 was, Radic." And then you said this: "Had Banja Luka acted differently,
5 then the Serbs would have acted differently." Now, do you agree that's
6 something that you said?
7 A. In most part, yes, but that Banja Luka would have behaved
8 differently, that the Serbs would have behaved differently is not true.
9 What I said was that the Banja Luka is the largest municipality in the
10 region and had it had a different policy, a certain number of the smaller
11 municipalities around it might have pursued a different policy, too. As
12 for this attribute of crazy, I said that it should be put in quotation
13 marks. He accepted public responsibility but my opinion was that he was
14 part of a collective body, he represented that body, and he made public
15 appearances only on behalf of that body.
16 Q. All right. As far as you were asked about him leaving parliament,
17 when did that happen? Can you remember, roughly? And setting up his own
19 A. I know that it did happen, but I can't actually pinpoint the time.
20 I think it was later on, maybe, in the fourth or fifth year. I know that
21 he had a party at the first multi-party elections which he was a
22 president, and it was called the People's Party of Republika Srpska. I
23 mean the first post-war elections.
24 Q. I was going to say, is that after Dayton?
25 A. Yes. I know that it appeared and took part at the first elections
1 after Dayton. Those were the only elections. It couldn't have taken part
2 in any elections before that, there weren't any.
3 Q. Right. Were you aware that he became a vice-president of the
4 Republika Srpska, in September of 1992?
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Vice-president?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vice-president of Republika Srpska,
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Vice-president or Deputy Prime Minister.
9 MS. KORNER: I always get confused between these terms. I think
10 vice-president. I think it's a vice-president as opposed to Deputy Prime
12 Q. Were you aware of that, Mr. Dodik?
13 A. I didn't know that he was vice-president of the republic but I did
14 know that he was in the government. I don't know. I don't think so.
15 Q. All right.
16 A. Maybe in some other situation, I don't know.
17 Q. The final matter that I want to ask you about is something you've
18 just been asked about now and that's the camps. Do you remember telling
19 us about an incident, telling the investigator, in the taped interview
20 with you, ten days ago or whenever it was, about an incident when
21 Kupresanin took a man out of Omarska?
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this is at page 14.
23 A. Yes. I remember. Mr. Kupresanin, at one of the assembly meetings
24 appeared with --
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object to this. This is completely
1 new matter. It's not a response to anything that I did on
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour --
4 MR. ACKERMAN: She is going into a whole new subject matter.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: No.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: About Mr. Kupresanin and what he did.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't agree with you, Mr. Ackerman, because your
8 question to him was directed into the witness confirming that Manjaca, for
9 example, was completely and exclusively administered and run by the
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I explain?
12 MR. ACKERMAN: This --
13 MS. KORNER: Can I, just a moment, please.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.
15 MS. KORNER: Mr. Ackerman suggested to the witness that Omarska
16 was totally secret and that nobody, including this witness, knew about it
17 until Mr. Kouchner arrived. That's why I'm re-examining.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's even more clear. I don't see your objection,
19 Mr. Ackerman.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, it has nothing to do with Manjaca.
21 MS. KORNER: No, it doesn't.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: But if she is now going to raise this issue then I
23 should be permitted to cross-examine on it because I didn't have an
24 opportunity to do that.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see what the question and answer is.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Because it really ask a whole new subject matter.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I think it arises from your cross-examination.
3 MS. KORNER: Can I make it as plain and simple as I possibly can?
4 Mr. Ackerman spent the last ten minutes of his cross-examination
5 explaining just how secret Omarska was, that nobody would dare to breathe
6 a word of it in the light of Simo Drljaca's order. This goes directly to
7 that issue as to how secret it actually was. And that effectively --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Korner.
9 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
10 Q. All right, now, Mr. Dodik, I'm sorry about that interruption, can
11 you tell us about the incident where Mr. Kupresanin took someone out of
13 A. Yes. You said from Omarska. At the time I didn't know it was a
14 camp. This happened as follows: At a parliament session in Banja Luka,
15 Mr. Kupresanin addressed me and a number of other deputies, claiming that
16 near Banja Luka, in the Vrbanja settlement, there was a deputy from the
17 Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina whose name I now cannot recall, and who had
18 come from Omarska, and who wanted to join in the work of the parliament of
19 Republika Srpska. I must say that I spoke to that man, together with
20 Mr. Kupresanin. He was obviously in fear this could -- this was visible.
21 But after that conversation, I really don't know what happened. And I
22 have to confirm that the man did come from Omarska but at the time I
23 didn't know that it was any kind of camp.
24 Q. Well, did Mr. Kupresanin tell you that this man was coming from
1 A. Yes, he did, that he had come from Omarska, that's right.
2 Q. And did he tell you what Omarska was? Forget about that it was a
3 camp or a camp in the sense that we now know it was, but did he tell you
4 what it was?
5 A. I don't remember exactly what he said, but I think that in those
6 days, it was seen as a place where Bosniaks were being gathered, and I
7 think he said he had been there but I cannot confirm that with precision.
8 I didn't enter into the gist of it. He probably approached me, knowing my
9 positions and knowing that I would agree to talk to that man, and in that
10 conversation, there was no mention of Omarska as a camp. He was a deputy
11 from Prijedor municipality. I don't know exactly from which location,
12 whether it was from Prijedor or from Omarska or from some other village.
13 I can just say that Mr. Kupresanin did say that the man had come from
15 Q. Did you tell the investigator that there had been rumours going
16 around about Omarska? About the collection centre?
17 A. Yes. There were rumours in those days, and I said that today
18 again, there were many rumours, many reports confirmed and unconfirmed
19 that were being spread about.
20 Q. And did you also tell the investigator that it was because
21 Kupresanin took a Muslim from Omarska that he fell out of favour with the
22 SDS, in your opinion?
23 A. I think that was part of it.
24 Q. Yes.
25 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Mr. Dodik. That's all that I ask.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, based upon the last part I do have
3 some additional cross-examination.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you want to ask the witness.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: I want to ask about this whole issue about
6 Kupresanin and Omarska and the person that was taken out because that did
7 not come up in the direct examination, so I didn't get a chance to
8 cross-examine about it.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
10 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, but Mr. Ackerman took the line which was
11 in our view a line that couldn't possibly be supported by this part of the
12 evidence. I wouldn't have dealt with it otherwise.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: But you have brought up another matter in the wake
14 of your question, Ms. Korner, namely that the fact that Mr. Kupresanin was
15 instrumental in bringing or taking this person out of Omarska marked the
16 beginning of his downfall.
17 MS. KORNER: All right. I accept that, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: So on the basis of that I'm allowing Mr. Ackerman to
19 take that point up and cross-examine the witness further. That's only
20 about that matter.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I only have about two or three
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope so, Mr. Ackerman.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: It will be very quick.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not going to allow you to start your
1 cross-examination again.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, it will be very quick.
3 Further cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:
4 Q. Mr. Dodik, as I understand, and please correct me if I
5 misunderstand, what you were told about this person was that he had come
6 from Omarska, not necessarily from some kind of a camp in Omarska, but
7 just from Omarska, is that a fair statement?
8 A. Yes. That's what I said.
9 Q. And the other thing that you said was that the fact that
10 Mr. Kupresanin had basically brought a Muslim and suggested that a Muslim
11 become part of the Assembly of Republika Srpska, become a deputy in that
12 assembly, representing the Prijedor municipality, was the beginning of
13 Mr. Kupresanin's downfall within the SDS organisation. I think that was
14 also your position, was it not?
15 A. For that reason, among others, Mr. Kupresanin was out of favour
16 later on, not just for that reason but probably that was one of the
17 reasons. It's my opinion. I can't go into the internal relationships
18 within the SDS. This is just my opinion.
19 Q. Did you ever hear or do you have any knowledge whatsoever about
20 the proposition that Mr. Kupresanin in this instance was operating under
21 directions from Mr. Karadzic to try to bring a Muslim into the RS assembly
22 because Mr. Karadzic believed that would be helpful in his international
23 negotiations? Did you ever hear that?
24 A. Something like that did not happen later on, so I can't claim that
25 that was true. I had the impression that this was a personal act by
1 Mr. Kupresanin.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have one question that I think I
3 should ask in private session, then I'll be finished.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go into private session for a while.
5 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that man.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman is going to repeat the question.
21 MR. ACKERMAN:
22 Q. I just have to repeat the question because the question is not in
23 the record at this point or not in the public record, the person that
24 Mr. Kupresanin brought to Banja Luka that you had an opportunity to talk
25 to, do you recall that his name was Mevludin Sejmenovic?
1 A. I don't remember the name.
2 Q. That's all I have, thank you?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. There are no questions from the Bench or
4 the Chamber. Which basically means that your testimony comes to an end
5 here. Which also means that you're free to go back to your home. You
6 will be assisted by the officers of this Tribunal in all you need to
7 enable you to make your return easy. On behalf of Judge Janu from the
8 Czech Republic and Judge Taya who is not with us today, from Japan and, of
9 course, on my own behalf and on behalf of the Tribunal, I should like to
10 thank you sir for having come over to give testimony in this trial against
11 Radoslav Brdjanin and I wish to join Mr. Ackerman and I'm sure I will be
12 expressing the wishes of everyone present in this room, I wish you a safe
13 journey back home. Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, and Mr. Ackerman, shall we break now?
17 MS. KORNER: I was going to suggest that, Your Honour and then we
18 can deal --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: It doesn't make sense starting now and breaking
20 after ten minutes if we are not going to conclude in ten minutes. So we
21 will have a 25 minute break and then hopefully we should conclude in one
22 hour or something like that.
23 MS. KORNER: Certainly, yes.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.
3 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, this is what's called housekeeping
4 with a vengeance. Your Honours should have in front of you an index to
5 the documents we want to deal with this morning. On top is the item
6 index, and underneath you will see detailed index to some of the documents
7 we want to deal with.
8 Your Honour, can I first of all deal with what's item number 1 on
9 this list, which is documents which are records of the Serbian assembly?
10 They have all been put together in I think two binders, three binders,
11 and some of them we wanted them put together as a collection. Some have
12 already been exhibited.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I have not checked beforehand whether I have enough
14 room in my Chamber because I'm running short of space very rapidly.
15 MS. KORNER: If you're like us, Your Honour, we have all got them
16 along the corridor. We fight for the space in the cupboards.
17 Your Honour, we have indicated very clearly those that are already
18 exhibited, for example, P21 in the second set of schedules and those that
19 are new documents and we would like to have exhibited, Your Honours, from
20 -- starting with Exhibit number 2463. And so can I formally ask Your
21 Honours to admit those into evidence?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman, I suppose, I get the usual
23 response from you and then I will proceed with pronouncing the usual order
24 or decision. So, Mr. Ackerman?
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I was just handed this whole
1 list, just moments ago, and so I'm not in any position to make much of a
2 response at this point, other than to say I probably have objections to a
3 number of these but I can't possibly formulate them at this point.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, these are formal records, as we've
5 already seen and we went through with Mr. Dodik of the assemblies, it's
6 got nothing to do with AID or anybody.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: He is not saying that he definitely has objections,
8 that he may have objections.
9 MS. KORNER: But, Your Honour, this is the point and this is the
10 difficulty, of course, because with the speeded up, as it were, schedule,
11 we will be relying on quite a number of these documents for the purposes
12 of the Rule 98 brief. So it's perhaps important that if there is to be an
13 objection, Mr. Ackerman puts that in in writing before we get to the
14 actual filing of these briefs.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: But that does not create a problem, Ms. Korner,
16 because for the purposes of the Rule 98 bis decision, we don't go into
17 credibility and authenticity, unless it is a clear-cut case of a forged
18 document which goes beyond any reasonable doubt at all.
19 So yes, Mr. Ackerman.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, for the purposes of the record
21 right now, without having had an opportunity to actually go through this
22 very much, I'm going to object to each and every one of these on the
23 grounds that they are being offered way too late in this process. If you
24 look at these lists, these documents were acquired by OTP some as early as
25 1994, some 1998, 1995, 1998, 1995. Surely the Prosecutor has known for
1 some time that they wanted to use these and could certainly have made that
2 known to the Defence in time for the Defence to make some kind of a
3 rational response to them. That's not been done. I mean, we have rules
4 about disclosure and --
5 MS. KORNER: I want to stop --
6 MR. ACKERMAN: -- Listing exhibits briefly.
7 MS. KORNER: Can I stop Mr. Ackerman.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: They have been disclosed.
9 MS. KORNER: They have all been disclosed about two years ago, we
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Which is the whole point.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, then that's a different matter.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But I was waiting here for you to finish
14 because I knew exactly what to expect from the Prosecution.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's proceed, Ms. Korner.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I move them into evidence subject to
18 any objections.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's obvious.
20 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how we have proceeded all along, and that's
22 how we will continue to proceed.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the next item number 2 is a set of
24 documents which we would ask to be moved into evidence as 2492 to -- until
25 P2517, which are all documents which relate to the issue of international
1 armed conflict.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
3 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honours, the next -- and they are listed
4 in full on the index attached to the front index, as it were.
5 Your Honour, then thereafter there are new documents relating to
6 the Banja Luka municipality and the documents relating to Bosanski Novi.
7 Those are documents that literally arrived in the last few weeks, as far
8 as Bosanski Novi is concerned, as a result of personal request to the
9 municipality to hand over documents, despite, as I think I pointed out to
10 Your Honour at the time, a series of letters to the Republika Srpska
11 asking for these documents which bore no result.
12 Your Honour, thereafter we have put in documents which relate to
13 Mr. Brown's report, which obviously Mr. Ackerman will want to see for his
14 cross-examination. Documents supporting the exhumation schedules. Again,
15 some documents relating to the police is the next item, and some further
16 translations of newspaper articles.
17 Item number 9 is one new document relating to the Petrovac
18 municipality. It was one of the ones produced by Mr. Hidic which wasn't
19 actually used but it's a report on the SDS.
20 Your Honour, there are further documents relating to Prijedor, to
21 Prnjavor, a general section relating to the Republika Srpska and the SA--
22 SDS, a document relating to Sipovo, new documents relating to Teslic, as a
23 result of the same procedure, namely that there was a personal visit to
24 the municipality by an investigator.
25 Your Honour, the next item, videos and transcripts, that is just
1 checking whether that includes-- no. That all relate to the area in which
2 we haven't yet formally exhibited. Your Honour, there are some additional
3 photographs relating to the municipalities of Banja Luka, Sanski Most, and
4 Kljuc. Now, Your Honour, item 17, may I just give a little explanation
5 for that? Your Honours will recall a very long time ago in this case a
6 witness was cross-examined on the basis that having asserted that Mrs.
7 Brdjanin worked for something called GIK Kozara, it was put to him and
8 documents were listed showing that it was a different company. Your
9 Honour, the documents we have acquired, we suggest, show that the company
10 which Mrs. Brdjanin worked for was in fact part of GIK Kozara. So that's
11 what those documents relate to.
12 And Your Honour, I think for that one, we haven't given it a
14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, you haven't, in fact.
15 MS. KORNER: And we better.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: And in fact, not only that, Ms. Korner but all the
17 subsequent items -- exhibits, from item 17 right through 32 with the
18 exception of item 30.
19 MS. KORNER: Yes, I think it's because we weren't entirely sure
20 whether we were going to be putting any more exhibits in with Mr. Dodik.
21 Your Honour, I'm asking if that -- if a note could be made on the schedule
22 that that one be made P2642. That's item 17 on the schedule.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: P?
24 MS. KORNER: 2642.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: 2642. Okay. I see that it consists of one, two,
1 three, four different documents.
2 MS. KORNER: They've all been put together, Your Honour n one
3 single bundle.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. 18?
5 MS. KORNER: Yes. Does Your Honour have that document there?
6 Because I can show Your Honours why we say that. It's the one -- oh, they
7 don't, okay.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think.
9 MS. KORNER: It's going to be handed in at the end of all of this.
10 Don't worry. Now, Your Honour, item number 18, the report relating to
11 Rasula's diary. Now, I don't know whether that particular issue has now
12 been as it were discarded because it was actually raised by Ms. Fauveau in
13 respect of the Defence for General Talic. Your Honour, we have that
14 report from the graphologist in Kiev. I'm afraid it took a little time to
15 try and sort all the matters out which related to it.
16 Your Honour, in essence, perhaps I can put it this way: And I'm
17 going to summarise what the report shows so I'm not giving evidence, it's
18 just a summary because it's quite a lengthy report. That the diary was
19 definitely in their view written by Rasula. They had comparison of known
20 writings from Rasula and there's statements attached from the various
21 investigators who provided the material.
22 There are two entries in Cyrillic written by someone else. One on
23 the 22nd of October, 1990, so way beyond the period, and on the 3rd of
24 November, 1990. Neither of these entries were considered relevant.
25 Nobody asked any questions about it. But those two entries, there are two
1 entries there written by someone else. Your Honour, as far as
2 the -- there are Latin script entries, leaving aside what we discovered
3 was somebody having written over the top of the Cyrillic was, when Your
4 Honours may recall when we found the original diary were not present on
5 the original but there are two Latin script entries which the handwriting
6 expert was unable to determine the authorship of because there was
7 insufficient Latin script for Rasula, by Rasula, provided for comparison.
8 Again they both relate to 1990. The 3rd of October, 1990 and the 20th of
9 October, 1990.
10 Your Honour, as far as Ms. Fauveau's objection was concerned,
11 there is on, I think, there was one page that she objected to, and I think
12 we'll find that she originally objected because it was the Latin script
13 written over the top, which as I say we found that was not on the
14 original, and the actual page on which this Latin script appeared, the
15 handwriting experts judged to be Rasula's writing.
16 Your Honour, the only other complication to that is this: That we
17 will have to produce a third version of the report because Your Honours
18 may recall that the copies that had the ERN numbers were two pages copied
19 on one page.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I remember, yes.
21 MS. KORNER: The handwriting said they wanted it separately so
22 there is a third version of it, I'm sorry, so that will have to be
23 exhibited separately.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: What I don't remember, Ms. Korner, is whether at the
25 time Mr. Ackerman had joined with the Defence of General Talic.
1 MS. KORNER: I think he did, but I'll let Mr. Ackerman speak for
3 JUDGE AGIUS: With Madam Fauveau, yeah.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: I think I did too, Your Honour, but I don't
5 remember for certain.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps -- all right. It's okay. But I invite you
7 to look into this, to see whether you maintain your position in that case.
8 So let's proceed. We would give or you propose to give this.
9 MS. KORNER: P2643, please, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Together with...
11 MS. KORNER: The diary, the new version of the diary which will be
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, the next item, number 19, is the
15 statement showing what documents were given and how they were acquired, so
16 may that be made -- Mr. Grady's statement will be P2644.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
18 MS. KORNER: Mr. Dupas, 2645.
19 Then the next statement, what we've asked Mr. Inayat to do is
20 produce as an attachment to a further statement, all the source indices
21 that he prepared, not only the original ones that went in with the various
22 municipality binders but also any additional documents that have been put
23 in by us, and they are all attached to the statement. Most of them, Your
24 Honours will have seen put into the binders. Your Honour, that would be
25 made, please, 2646.
1 Now, Your Honour, can I then ask for these to go on the ELMO so
2 that Your Honours can see what's happened here? The first map that
3 Mr. Inayat prepared is showing overall the religious destruction within
4 the municipalities based on the evidence we've called as opposed to what
5 is in the indictment, because Your Honour there are certainly when we get
6 to the Rule 98 we will certainly be conceding that there are a number
7 of --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: My problem, in inverted commas, here, I do recall
9 when we had the expert witness dealing with the destruction of religious
10 buildings and religious properties, he had himself, if I remember well,
11 drawn up a map showing Catholic, Muslim mosques and other buildings of a
12 religious nature where they teach, and we already had a map of this.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the difficulty was is we limited him
14 because of the time.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see.
16 MS. KORNER: To a few municipalities and this one shows all the
17 municipalities about which we have called evidence. I wonder if that
18 could just be put on the ELMO so that Your Honours can see.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand now. This will be 2647, no?
20 MS. KORNER: It will, Your Honour, yes.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours will be provided --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: It's --
24 MS. KORNER: It's the colouring, I'm afraid.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: We can't see anything when --
1 MS. KORNER: All right.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I can distinguish mosques from churches but that's
3 about it.
4 MS. KORNER: If we can just look at Sanski Most, can we focus on
5 that a little bit more.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Ms. Korner, please speak into the microphone.
7 MS. KORNER: Apparently not.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: The translator has asked Ms. Korner to speak into
9 the microphone, she doesn't have her headphones on so we couldn't hear
10 that and secondly let me just say that I don't know why we are going
11 through this little exercise, because Your Honours can look at it at your
12 leisure, and frankly I have a lot of things to do before I leave here
13 tomorrow and I'd like to leave as soon as we can, Your Honour. I think
14 that we are just wasting time doing this.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go --
16 MS. KORNER: Mr. Ackerman wants to leave, of course Mr. Cunningham
17 is still here. However, I think it's important because this is a question
18 of what the public see, Your Honour, as well, and we are ending the,
19 effectively, the Prosecution case for Mr. Brdjanin, so I think it's
20 important that we deal with these.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And the explanation that you have given
22 after my question justifies actually your doing so, so let's proceed.
23 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Your Honour, that's -- yes, as you say,
25 The next map is the exhumation sites and I wonder if that could
1 just briefly be put up on the ELMO? Thank you. Thank you very much. And
2 that will then be 2648.
3 The next map, to become 2649, is the detention camps. Thank you.
4 And finally, 2650 is a map showing the sites where, Your Honour,
5 killings took place, that is, not individual killings but effectively more
6 than one person or two people. Thank you very much, usher, that's fine.
7 2650 that will become.
8 Your Honour, the two CD-ROMs, I'm afraid there is a slight problem
9 and they have to be redone and they will be available. May they be made
10 in absentia, 2651? I'm told they are here. So...
11 Your Honour, the next set of documents is a statement of an
12 investigator, Mr. Ackheim, which produces the photographs of the Mount
13 Vlasic area, where the killings took place in August of 1992. Your
14 Honour, I think, perhaps, if the statement could be made 2652 and the
15 actual photographs 2652.1?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the item 28 is a statement of Mr. Grady
18 relating to photographs of the Velagici school site. Your Honour, can I
19 ask that these be put on the ELMO just to show you and Mr. Ackerman what
20 they are intended to show? Your Honour, these were satellite imagery
21 provided by the American embassy, can we just go back, you'll see, Your
22 Honour, marked - it's not the clearest unfortunately on this
23 photograph - but you can actually make out the building in this marked
24 area. It's quite difficult to see, I accept, and then that was 1990, and
25 then if you go to the 21st of August, 1992, so this was about a month or
1 so afterwards, the killings, we say, it's just trees, that there is no
2 building. I think that's much clearer than the earlier photograph. Thank
4 Your Honour, that -- could the statement be made 2653 and the
5 actual photograph 2653.1? And sorry, and there are some other photographs
6 of the Velagici which I won't bother to put up. Then there is a statement
7 of Ms. Ward relating to the provenance of intercepts, how we received
8 them. So that would be P2654.
9 The -- there is a Rule 92 bis statement of the witness who Your
10 Honour may recall was too ill, and I think it's been allocated a number
11 already. So that's already in. Then there is a further statement of
12 Mr. Grady, that relates to how he obtained the original diary from Sanski
13 Most. So that's P2655.
14 Your Honour, the next or the last item is the video now on CD-ROM
15 of the speech of Mr. Karadzic that I put to the last witness. We played
16 part of it in opening but we never seem to have formally exhibited it, so
17 that's what that is. And there will be a transcript of it as well
18 attached. 2656. And the transcript, please, then will be 2656.1.
19 Your Honour, finally I think there is the Kotor Varos binder of
20 exhibits, which we raised yesterday, whether Mr. Ackerman had ever written
21 any objections to it and he's not sure and nor are we but I don't think
22 so. In any event, on the same terms --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we had admitted it.
24 MS. KORNER: You had admitted it, had you? Ms. Gustin didn't seem
25 to have the record of it. Perhaps the Registry can assist. Was the Kotor
1 Varos binder of documents admitted.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Any case, let's not waste time. If it hasn't, it's
3 being admitted now. So for us, this whole procedure is a matter of
4 formality. At the end of the day we will do the filtering exercise that
5 requires to be done.
6 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour, then, amazingly enough, just
7 over 18 months, since we began this case, subject to the witnesses that
8 Your Honour knows about in August, the Prosecution formally closes its
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner, and I think it is my duty
11 here in open court to express my gratitude and appreciation for all that
12 you have done. Sometimes under very heavy pressure from the Chamber to
13 bring your case to an end. You have done it most efficiently, I must say,
14 and for this, I must express, I feel I'm duty-bound to express our
15 appreciation, our sense of gratitude, on behalf of Judge Janu and Judge
16 Taya who is not here, but who I consulted yesterday before she left and
17 she agrees completely that we should make this declaration in public.
18 I'm sure that Mr. Ackerman will be equally responsible and equally
19 efficient in conducting the Defence case, which will commence if and when
20 the decision on the Rule 98 bis opens up the Defence case, because that
21 stands to be seen obviously. And we don't know exactly where we are
22 heading as yet, not having seen the motion itself and not having seen your
23 response. So I think these past 18 months have, if nothing else, have
24 shown one thing: That I think we tried on our part to ensure that there
25 was a fair trial all the time. And I think I owe it to you publicly that
1 you followed suit and that in the whole process, you were as fair as you
2 could possibly be, being the Prosecution.
3 In my country we say the Prosecutor is the accused's best friend,
4 and you have fulfilled your role, Ms. Korner, together with all the other
5 prosecuting officers that have helped you in this case. You have
6 fulfilled this role most responsibly I must say and for that too I want to
7 show you my appreciation.
8 MS. KORNER: On behalf of all of us, Your Honour, thank you very
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So we'll reconvene, I take it, on the
11 27th of August, with the testimony of Mr. -- whoever his name is, whatever
12 his name is, if he is certified fit to attend. If not, do I take it that
13 we are bringing forward the cross-examination -- the other witness by one
14 day or will the other witness come definitely on the 28th?
15 MS. KORNER: He will definitely -- the second witness, will come
16 definitely on the 28th, that's the organisation that's been done.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, as I say, I hesitate because I thought
19 you were referring to the second witness. I think the first one wasn't
20 protected but even so --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought so, but anyway --
22 MS. KORNER: But, Your Honour, we are making inquiries to see what
23 the situation will be about the first witness.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: But please do let my legal officer, senior legal
25 officer, keep him informed of any progress along those lines.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we will certainly do that.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: If necessary, even if we can't have the testimony of
3 that witness on the 27th, if necessary, it may be the case of convening
4 the case for a short while for an hour or so on the 27th just the same to
5 make sure that everything is in order and that we can proceed timely with
6 the Rule 98 bis, your response would still be in the pipeline then. But
7 Mr. Ackerman's Rule 98 would have been filed in the meantime. So we will
8 take matters up from that moment, even if that witness is not brought
9 forward to continue.
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, one of the things we are going to try
11 and investigate is if because of his condition he's unable to travel back
12 to this Court, whether we could set up a videolink, if not for that date,
13 for another date. But we are hoping we will be able to get him back.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: But if you do so, Ms. Korner, and we reserve
15 judgments on that after having heard Mr. Ackerman, our wish is that you do
16 so in a timely fashion.
17 MS. KORNER: Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Not to have it delayed unduly, because it would
19 impact definitely on the Defence rights to have everything in place before
20 they can proceed with --
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, as Your Honour may remember, he's
22 actually gone on holiday, which is what we hoped would perhaps soothe the
23 troubled spirit. So we may have some difficulty in contacting him but
24 obviously if that's what it comes down to, we will try and make as speedy
25 arrangements as possible.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Do you wish to make any
2 statements, Mr. Ackerman, before we pack our bags and go home for a
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, only to say, Your Honour, that we have gone
5 through a pretty difficult patch here since the 19th of May, and I think
6 we've all made very serious efforts to get through it. It's not been
7 easy. But we got there and I think we got there well, and I
8 appreciate -- I want to express my appreciation to the Court for the
9 Court's appreciation of some of the difficulties we were facing on our
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I also in this regard want to add to my previous
12 statement that your behaviour, your conduct, throughout has also helped
13 considerably to make the work of this Chamber lighter than it would have
14 otherwise been had you been obstructive in your approach, which certainly
15 you haven't been. So we leave it at that. May I wish you all a good
16 break. I know that we will all be working. I have already packed the
17 documents that I have to take with me, but at least I will be reading
18 those on the beach and not in chambers or in the -- or in my apartment
19 here in The Hague and that I can read at my leisure and pleasure without
20 the pressure of work that we usually face here when we are in session and
21 doing other things as well that fall within our responsibility. I wish
22 you nice holidays and we will reconvene as agreed on the 27th. Thank you.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
24 11.23 a.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
25 the 27th day of August, 2003