1 Wednesday, 29 October 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 11.37 a.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Brdjanin is here.
7 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case Number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, welcome.
12 Appearances -- Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you follow
13 the proceedings in a language that you can understand?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Yes, I
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
17 Appearances for the Prosecution.
18 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Julian Nicholls, assisted by
19 Denise Gustin, case manager. Good morning, Your Honours. And can I
20 assure you your robes don't give me a headache.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.
22 Appearances for the Defence.
23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's a tough act at that follow. He's John
24 Ackerman, I'm David Cunningham. We're assisted by Aleksandar Vujic for
25 the Defence. And I have a preliminary matter at the Court's convenience.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Please go ahead.
2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Can we go into private session for this, Your
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session.
5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And it has nothing to do with this witness and I
6 have no problem with this witness remaining in the courtroom during this
8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because we are not in private session.
9 [Private session]
13 Page 21666 – redacted – private session
12 Page 21667 – redacted – private session
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We are in open session. I have just welcomed
23 the witness for the third time hoping that the re-examination will be
24 concluded in half an hour. But take your time, Mr. Nicholls. I'm not
25 pushing you.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours. Good morning, Mr. Brown.
2 I'll try to keep my promise and finish in about 30, 40 minutes.
3 WITNESS: Ewan Brown [Resumed]
4 Re-examined by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]
5 Q. The first thing I want to do is just go back to some questions
6 that you were asked about paragraph 1.112 of your report, that's on page
7 39. This is quite a simple matter, but I want to clear it up because you
8 were sort of attacked on this point. In paragraph 112, again talking
9 about cooperation between the military and civilian bodies, you stated:
10 "In a similar manner to the municipal level, cooperative links were also
11 established with the regional government bodies including the Autonomous
12 Region of Krajina (ARK) Crisis Staff, the Autonomous Region of Krajina
13 Assembly, and other regional government bodies."
14 The next sentence states: "On the 14th of April 1992, a reference
15 in a corps report noted that," and then there is a quote in a document
16 about 5th Corps contacts and meeting with the SAO Serbian autonomous
17 district of Krajina commander.
18 Were you trying to create a misleading impression in any way in
19 the way you wrote this paragraph?
20 A. No, I wasn't. I was trying to use this as an example of the
21 5th Corps had been involved in establishing cooperative links with
22 regional government bodies.
23 Q. When you first list the ARK Crisis Staff, the Autonomous Region of
24 Krajina Assembly, and then state "and other bodies" and then list this
25 one, this is one of those other bodies you were talking about. Correct?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. Sorry. Continuing to the next paragraph, P113, specifically
3 relating to footnote 178, it was suggested that it was misleading to not
4 have submitted this document in support of your -- as you rely on it in
5 support for your contention in footnote 178. I'd like you to be given
6 DB269, please. You can have my copy if it speeds things up.
7 Now, if you look at DB269 and the footnote 178 in its entirety
8 relating to the permit granted to Mr. Brdjanin, do you think that you've
9 included all of the substance necessary to convey what is actually
10 contained in this one-paragraph document, DB269?
11 A. Yes, I think that it does contain the substance of the document.
12 It isn't a particularly long document, and I think I've included that in
13 the footnote.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 Now, continuing just on this topic of the permit, there was some
16 discussion about whether or not this was an official duty not appearing on
17 the face of the document to be so necessarily, and whether it supported
18 your contention that tasks were assisted by the 5th Corps, rather than
20 Regarding this permit in DB269 and in your footnote, this is the
21 26th of June 1992 that the permit is issued. Correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The ARK -- do you know if the ARK Crisis Staff was in existence at
24 that time?
25 A. I believe it was.
1 Q. This is a permit, is it not, to travel in a combat zone?
2 A. Yes, it is. As I indicated, I think it comes two days after the
3 initiation of Operation Corridor in the area that's -- that is indicated
5 Q. And just in general, these types of permits would be -- would need
6 to be issued, would they not, for politicians or anybody to travel in
7 areas of active combat?
8 A. I would expect so, yes.
9 Q. Now, in another document we've looked at, we don't necessarily
10 need to look at it again, it's P1598.1, the transcript of the videotape
11 where Mr. Brdjanin is seen being interviewed in Kotor Varos. He stated
12 that it was his responsibility to tour all the front lines and that he
13 most frequently toured the corridor, that he did this because on each
14 Monday, he had to brief or inform presidents of all the Crisis Staffs
15 about the situation. Do you remember that document?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. And for the record, you actually explain and talk about that
18 document in the next paragraph, 1.114.
19 A. Yes, I reference it there.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Nicholls. Usher, could you perhaps
21 move -- that's the first one because I think it's obstructing the view of
22 members of the public. That's number one. And secondly, the rest is
23 obstructing my view of Mr. Cunningham and Mr. Brdjanin. So what I suggest
24 you do is you put one -- you move that stack further to the left and put
25 this one in front of it. That's enough. That's enough. You move that in
1 front of it, and then -- not -- at a 90-degree angle. This side. That's
2 enough, yeah.
3 And you move this -- that's enough. You move this further --
4 nearer to -- no, the interpreters can see. I think -- I can see them
6 He can't see the witness. Okay. Just move it somewhere where it
7 doesn't interfere with anyone's --
8 JUDGE JANU: There is no such a place.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, there is. Just move it perpendicular with the
10 other one. Just flush with the other one. All right. And move this. If
11 you move it here, it should be okay. That's enough. That's enough. At
12 least this way I can see everyone.
13 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
15 Q. If I can just try to put this together. If Mr. Brdjanin, as he
16 said, is routinely travelling to combat zones in the corridor and in other
17 areas in order to brief Crisis Staff members, presidents, of what's going
18 on, does it seem logical to you that although we've only got this one
19 permit in evidence that other such permits would have been issued to visit
20 other areas of combat?
21 A. Yes --
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object to that. I mean, the
23 Prosecutor at least knows that their obligation here is to prove something
24 beyond a reasonable doubt and, maybe, could have, should have there was
25 another permit sometime somewhere doesn't prove anything. It's pure and
1 complete and total speculation, and this calls for speculation. It's for
2 him to speculate on whether maybe somebody might have issued another
3 permit and maybe a permit was required for somebody who they contend was
4 the highest civilian authority in the region to travel. I mean, it all
5 sounds silly to me. And I think it's just improper.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: But the question was whether -- a suggestion is
7 being made to the witness, and he's being asked whether that suggestion
8 sounds or seems logical to him as a military expert or a military analyst,
9 and that is perfectly legitimate. Go ahead -- or rather, you go ahead.
10 A. Yes, it would seem logical that other passes were to be
11 disseminated --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: You would expect other similar permits to be issued
13 in similar conditions?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
17 Q. Another question on this same point made to you by Mr. Ackerman
18 was who, other than his client, toured areas of combat activity. Because
19 in your report, you state "members of the ARK Crisis Staff," and there was
20 a lot of cross-examination on whether words had an "s" on the end or not.
21 If we look at P1598.1, and I think we probably need to look at it
22 now, you could find on the first page there is a speaker who speaks after
23 Radoslav Brdjanin. Do you see that?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Who is that next speaker?
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13 English transcripts.
1 A. Stojan Zupljanin who was head of the Banja Luka security services.
2 Q. All right. Do you know whether he was a member of the ARK Crisis
4 A. Yes, he was.
5 Q. So then following on on the next page, you can see that the
6 reporter, Predrag Laketa characterises this visit as a surprise visit to
7 Serbian soldiers by the Krajina leadership. Correct?
8 A. Yes, that's what it says in the transcript.
9 Q. Thank you. I'm done with that.
10 I'd like you to be shown P1583. Very simply, this is the 9th of
11 June 1992 communication from Ratko Mladic concerning the issue of the
12 dismissal of non-Serb officers. We talked about this document in your
13 direct and on cross, but I don't think you actually looked at it on direct
14 or cross-examination. So I just want to confirm this is the Mladic
15 communication which you are talking about.
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. For the record, this is cited in footnote 223 of your report
18 covering that topic.
19 I am now going to talk about another topic which you were
20 cross-examined on at some length. It's sort of a mix of topics, the
21 involvement of the army in the confiscation of weapons or operations to
22 remove weapons; in other words, in conjunction with the MUP or the police.
23 And also the ability of local bodies, Crisis Staffs or civilian bodies
24 other than the top leadership to issue orders to military forces. And I'd
25 like you to look at P2419, please. This is a document you footnote that
1 we've referred to before. It's the analysis of the combat readiness and
2 activities of the Army of VRS in 1992. It's in footnote 779.
3 This is a big document. I'm going to direct you to page 158 of
4 the English version which has the heading "basic characteristics of the
5 operational tactical utilisation of the Army of the Republika Srpska." I
6 can give you my copy if that's quicker. It has got English and the B/C/S.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just have an inquiry. The
8 Prosecutor made reference to footnote 779 in his question. And I'm
9 wondering if he's referring to 779 in the report of the witness, which
10 seems to have nothing to do with this document. It might be an error. So
11 for the transcript, maybe we can clear it up.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll check that.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay.
16 Q. If you can just look at that first paragraph which talks about how
17 in 1992, the Army of the RS evolved and grew into, as it states, the
18 highest strategical organisational formation of the Serbian people. Can
19 you just tell us looking at that what that tells you about the evolution
20 of the command and control structure of the VRS in 1992.
21 A. This is a section that is repeated a number of times in this
22 document, but I think it indicates that the army grew out of -- or grew
23 under the, as they say themselves, with significant influence and
24 cooperation with the SDS, the Serb organs of government, the orthodox
25 church, and the likes. Earlier on in this document, they go into a little
1 more detail about the actual development of the VRS Main Staff in
2 particular, and the army, and they say that the army can be divided into
3 two phases, the first phase, they're slightly ambiguous with the date.
4 There's one date they say, late May, the other one they say, mid-June,
5 which is up to the first phase. And then the second phase whereby the
6 army was fully established and was able to achieve the strategic goals set
7 it. And in that first phase, a number of times in this document they make
8 reference about the influence, coordination, the importance of the SDS,
9 governmental bodies in the -- not only in the creation of the army, but in
10 the taking control of territory. And in that first phase, they say
11 that -- and they also mention Crisis Staffs I believe in one of the
12 sections, and I can draw your attention to that.
13 In that first phase, they were able to seize control of
14 territories but stop at that, and it was only in the second phase where
15 they were able to expand into the carrying out the strategic objectives
16 such as the corridor, which I think they reference in this document. And
17 I think I can draw your attention to a couple of references, and I think
18 I've also included them in my report.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this a document that is being contested by the
20 Defence or not?
21 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't believe so.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
24 Q. Let me -- that document is in. Let me move on and ask you now
25 some questions about some more -- is there a section you'd like to point
1 us to now?
2 A. I mean, I have the document. I used it a lot. It is a key
3 document, I believe, and I have referenced in t in my report a number of
4 occasions, and I believe I mentioned it on direct, too. If there's a
5 requirement, maybe, to look at the sections that talk about cooperation or
6 the sections that make reference to Crisis Staff or government bodies and
7 the influence that they had in taking control of territory in that first
8 phase, I can direct the Court to that.
9 Q. I think it's in, and I think we covered that pretty well in
10 direct, so we can move on now.
11 For the record, this exhibit appears - we were in error - in
12 footnote 770, 780, 784, and probably some others as well.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Does that satisfy you, Mr. Ackerman?
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, I just thought the record should be clear,
15 Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, you were right.
17 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
18 THE WITNESS: Just to finish, I would just add that this document
19 contains a large number of references to the issue of cooperation, which I
20 know is an issue that has been discussed in the last couple of days.
21 There's a large number of references in that report about the importance
22 placed on cooperation, coordination, as well as those references about
23 that first period whereby government, Crisis Staffs and governmental
24 bodies, I believe they mention regional units and the likes, took control
25 of territory designated as Serb but stopped at that, and then the army
1 itself was able to carry on and achieve the strategic objectives that were
2 set, which I believe is referenced in this quote, too.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
5 Q. Again, talking now about the issue of disarmament, I'd like to go
6 through some documents which talk about how that process was, in fact,
7 carried out.
8 If you could be shown P637, please, I first want to talk about
9 Sanski Most. Mr. Ackerman made the point a couple of times during his
10 cross-examination that anybody can issue an order, but it doesn't mean
11 anything unless there was some effect, unless the order is carried out.
12 I'd like to look at some documents pertaining to that issue.
13 I think Mr. Ackerman may have shown you this document yesterday,
14 P637. It's the Crisis Staff decision of 22nd of May 1992. Paragraph 4
15 talking about disarming formations in Sanski Most -- military --
16 paramilitary formations in Sanski Most. As far as that is concerned,
17 Colonel Basara and Colonel Anicic are charged with putting this into
18 practice. Do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, do you know who Colonel Anicic was?
21 A. Colonel Anicic was the commander of the Serbian Territorial
22 Defence in Sanski Most.
23 Q. All right. Thank you.
24 I'd now like you to look at P638. This is a document which we
25 looked at during your direct examination. It is an order approved by
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13 English transcripts.
1 Colonel Anicic. We have been through this before a number of times in
2 this case. It's not dated, but on the bottom of -- towards -- on the
3 bottom of page of the English, it talks about an attack beginning on the
4 26th of May, so that gives us an idea of when this document was written.
5 I just want to draw your attention to paragraph 3, that states:
6 "The 6th Brigade in coordinated action with the STO, Serbian TO units, is
7 undertaking combat operations in Sanski Most Municipality area in order to
8 disarm enemy forces." Correct?
9 A. Yes, it does say that.
10 Q. So that appears to be following the Crisis Staff order, does it
12 A. Yes, and from other documents, in the days following on from this
13 one, operations were conducted in Sanski Most.
14 Q. And we know that specifically as referenced in this order, there
15 was a fierce attack on Mahala?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I'd like you to now look at P646, please. This is a 29th of May
18 1KK report to the Main Staff. It looks like it's signed by General Talic,
19 not for him. I'd like to direct your attention to the first paragraph
20 about halfway through it. The report states as of 29th May: "There is
21 still some weak resistance to confiscation of weapons in the wider area of
22 Prijedor, Sanski Most, and Kljuc." And then it continues.
23 Is that what you were referring to yesterday, not this particular
24 document, but those operations when you talked about the disarmament
25 operations in this area during that time period?
1 A. Yes. That is the operations, the reference here to Sanski Most, I
2 talked at some length in the Stakic case about the chain that flowed in
3 relation to disarmament and operations that were conducted there. Later
4 on in this document, in paragraph 2, they talk about cooperation with the
5 Ministry of the Interior and mopping up terrain and confiscating weapons
6 in Prijedor, Sanski Most, and Kljuc. I know the 6th Brigade was involved
7 in Sanski Most. Elements of the 30th partisan division were involved in
8 operations in Kljuc, and elements of the 43rd Brigade and others were
9 involved in operations in Prijedor. But these were all around this time.
10 And as I say in my report, many were couched as disarmament operations.
11 Q. Thank you. And you talk about Prijedor in depth in your Stakic
12 testimony which has been admitted, so we won't go into that. However, if
13 you look at this line which you've already identified: "Cooperation with
14 the SRBH MUP in mopping up the terrain and confiscating weapons from
15 illegal formations in these areas," General Talic's assessment with what
16 the 1KK is doing in cooperation with the MUP is almost exactly as written
17 in your paragraph on this point, 2.18, is it not?
18 A. Which paragraph again, Mr. Nicholls?
19 Q. 2.18 on page 66.
20 A. Yes, I would argue that is what I've written.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 Again, and we're nearly done with Sanski Most, if I could show you
23 P680, this is in your report under footnote 452. There are several
24 interesting parts of this report dated 15th of June 1992 from the security
25 services station in Sanski Most. But this report concerns disarming of
1 so-called paramilitary formations in Sanski Most. Correct?
2 A. Yes, that's its title, and it does deal with that.
3 Q. And the first paragraph states: "Serbian army units and commands,
4 6th Brigades, TO, Territorial Defence units, and the SJB have for some
5 time been disarming paramilitary Muslim and Croatian formations in the
6 Sanski Most municipal area." Correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And if we skip down one paragraph to the 25th of May, the document
9 in quotes refers to the military action against Mahala as a "disarming"
10 action. Correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So you would agree that this document also supports, one, that
13 there was cooperation in the confiscation of weapons; and two, that Crisis
14 Staff decisions to confiscate weapons were, in fact, actioned upon.
15 A. Yes, I think that demonstrates quite clearly.
16 Q. Last document on this topic, for Sanski Most, P650, please. This
17 is a Crisis Staff document dated the 30th of May 1992. We've already seen
18 that the Serbian TO of Sanski Most was involved in the assault on Mahala.
19 Simply, this is another order to the Serbian TO stating that now the
20 Serbian Territorial Defence shall prevent all persons from entering the
21 Mahala area except for authorised organs who were involved in mopping up
22 in Mahala.
23 A. Yes, that's what the document says.
24 Q. And that fits as well, doesn't it, with the role of the Serbian
25 Territorial Defence and what its role was in the disarming and attack on
1 Mahala, it follows?
2 A. Yes, it would appear to do that.
3 Q. Just a few documents on a similar situation which occurred in
4 Kljuc, if I could show you P921, please, and at the same time P923. If
5 you look at these two documents issued by the Kljuc Municipality Crisis
6 Staff on the 28th of May 1992, the first is an order setting a deadline
7 for citizens to hand over weapons that day by noon; and the second
8 document is another order extending the deadline to the following day, the
9 29th of May at 10.00.
10 There we have the weapons surrender deadline being set. Correct?
11 A. Yes, I'd also argue in this document that it appears to be
12 directed very heavily against a Muslim population. I know that was an
13 issue that was discussed yesterday, whether this disarmament was directed
14 to everybody of all ethnicities, and this document would indicate that it
15 was clearly directed at -- in Kljuc, anyway, at the Muslim population.
16 Q. And, thank you, that's a good point. That was another point in
17 contention. In fact, the documents we've looked at from Sanski Most also
18 suggest that it was the Muslim population that was targeted, don't they,
19 because Mahala was a predominantly Muslim area of Sanski Most?
20 A. Yes, it was.
21 Q. Look at P924, now, please. This is regular combat report to the
22 command of the 30th Infantry Division. And it's headed command of the 1st
23 Infantry Brigade, Sipovo command post, 28th of May 1992. If you look at
24 the second page, it states: "Because of the situation in Kljuc, the 3rd
25 Battalion of the 1st Infantry Brigade was made fully combat ready as
1 ordered. If the Muslims do not surrender their weapons by 27 May 1992 at
2 1200 hours, battalion will carrying out a mopping up operation." I think
3 you may have looked at this document yesterday. Now, that's a bit strange
4 because the report is dated the 28th of May, and it's talking about the
5 27th of May. So that may be a typo or an earlier deadline which was
7 But could you give me your view on whether this document again
8 shows the issues we're talking about, the involvement of the military in
9 disarming and the fact that it was Muslims areas disarmed, and that the
10 original orders came from Crisis Staffs? Can you comment on that.
11 A. I think it's somewhat similar to Sanski Most. And what did happen
12 in that area was that particular battalion was involved in combat
13 operations around this period. And that is shown from other
14 documentation. I believe it's also referenced in corps level material,
15 too. I think I've referenced a couple of other -- this is a brigade-level
16 combat report, and I think I've referenced one or two other ones in that
17 same brigade in the following days which indicate that that unit was, in
18 fact, involved in the operation as highlighted here.
19 Q. All right. Thank you. If we look at P654, I think we can look at
20 one of those corps-level documents you were just talking about. A 1KK
21 command regular combat report of 1st of June 1992 to the Main Staff. Now,
22 if you look at paragraph 3, situation on the ground, the report states:
23 "The areas of Prijedor, Kljuc, and Sanski Most are under the control of
24 our units." And then it continues to talk about -- excuse me, on the next
25 page, in paragraph 8, conclusions and anticipated developments. "The
1 mopping up of the town of Prijedor and the neighbouring populated areas is
2 continuing. Mopping up in suburban areas and the seizing of weapons in
3 Muslim-populated villages is also taking place in the municipalities of
4 Kljuc and Sanski Most."
5 Is this one of those documents you were just referring to?
6 A. Yes, it was. And again, it's another reference in the corps level
7 documents about disarming operations that were going on.
8 Q. I'd like you to look at P380 now.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, Your Honour, I know I've gone over my
10 expected time, but I'm getting towards the end.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll be having a break in seven minutes' time. So
12 try to conclude by then, please.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't know if I can quite do it by then.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: I should conclude by then? All right.
16 Q. Just looking at this very quickly, another area you talked about
17 yesterday was the imbalance, if you will, of some of the conflict. And
18 you said that there would be just a much greater force and strength on the
19 VRS side in some of these conflicts, and that the reaction seemed
20 excessive, although there were casualties on the VRS side. That's not
21 very well put, but do you understand what I'm saying there?
22 A. Yes, I think I do.
23 Q. If you look at the fourth paragraph of this report, P380, it's a
24 1KK report of 1st of June 1992. That seems to reflect what you were
25 saying. I think you specifically cited Kljuc as one of your examples,
1 does it not?
2 A. Yes, I think it's one of the examples that you could draw.
3 Q. Because we've got the citation to two VRS soldiers killed, four
4 seriously wounded, and another 21 slightly wounded. We've gone over a lot
5 in this trial what the response was in Kljuc. And it states here in the
6 paragraph that about 280 enemy soldiers were captured in the Kljuc area
7 and a number of them killed. And we don't have time to go over what some
8 of the other responses were to the killing of these two Serb soldiers.
9 A. I would just add as well that as a more generic comment, that
10 these municipalities -- control was taken from the military perspective
11 very, very swiftly. These were not month-long, year-long operations. In
12 some cases, it was over within a matter of days, if that really.
13 Q. And we actually saw some of that in Sanski Most, the operations
14 beginning around the 25th or 26th of May 1992, the 1KK report stating that
15 the areas were entirely under their control by the 1st of June.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I'd like you to look at P657, please, still in the same time
18 frame, this is a 1KK report of the 2nd of June 1992. We talked about it
19 in the direct examination. I think you referred to it yesterday, but you
20 didn't have the document in front of you.
21 It states that there was a conflict - in paragraph 1 - in the area
22 of Lisnja village. And the last sentence of paragraph 2 states: "Muslim
23 extremists have failed to hand in their weapons" -- excuse me. "While
24 because Muslim extremists have failed to hand in their weapons, the Muslim
25 population of the area of Lisnja village has been expelled." Do you see
1 that section?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is that an example of what you were talking about when
4 Mr. Ackerman questioned you and said, look, if an army is attacked, it has
5 got to take care of the area, it has got to secure it. It has got to get
6 rid of the people who are dangerous. Is this an example of an
8 A. Yes, I think it's quite clearly an overreaction.
9 Q. If you turn the page and look at paragraph 5, combat morale,
10 second-to-last sentence there, it states that it is necessary to ensure
11 both an urgent introduction of a uniformed system of insignia, and it
12 explains why that's necessary earlier in the paragraph. And to reach a
13 decision on placing all Territorial Defence structures under the exclusive
14 command of the SRBH army and the 1st Krajina Corps.
15 I take it that means that up to that point, there clearly wasn't
16 an exclusive command structure over these TO units?
17 A. No. And going back to the combat analysis readiness report and
18 talking about this phase of two phases, in essence, of the growth of the
19 army, the establishment of the army, they make clear reference to that,
20 that there was Territorial Defence units under the influence and control
21 of the SDS, that operated during that period before the formal
22 establishment of the SRBiH.
23 Q. Because this is the period before the completion of the
24 restructuring to light brigades has taken effect?
25 A. Yes, I think on the 12th of May, there was an announcement that
1 the Territorial Defence should be integrated as a component of the army
2 and that light brigades should be formed as a result of that. But
3 clearly, it took some time to occur. And I know in Prijedor, for example,
4 the Crisis Staff passed a decision in late May making the
5 Territorial Defence a component of the military or ex-JNA brigade that was
6 in Prijedor. So it did take a bit of time to implement.
7 Q. All right. I have just two more documents to show you, and about
8 two questions. If you could have P1268 and P1282. These documents refer
9 to something we started talking about yesterday, the order of the Prijedor
10 Crisis Staff to establish - I'm sorry - the Intervention Platoon. And you
11 covered this fairly extensively in your Stakic testimony, so I'll do it
12 very, very quickly.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: I can put my copy on the ELMO if it's quicker.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's much quicker. Okay. We've got the
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
17 Q. The order I'm interested in is on page 51 of the English. It's
18 number -- it says number 48 in the top left-hand corner. The ERN is
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, usher.
21 MR. NICHOLLS:
22 Q. Now, this is a 17th of June 1992 Prijedor Crisis Staff order to
23 the public security station in the Prijedor regional command to set up a
24 unified Intervention Platoon of 20 members. And it states how this will
25 be made up of soldiers and police. Correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If you look at P1282 on the second page, this is signed by Simo
3 Drljaca. It's to the Crisis Staff of Prijedor dated the 1st of July 1992,
4 couple weeks later. On the second page, he states that the Prijedor SJB
5 has in fact carried out this order.
6 A. Yes, he does say that.
7 Q. And just -- we don't have much time at all, but could you briefly
8 just state - I know it's difficult - what the Prijedor regional command
9 was and what the Intervention Platoon was, and that's the last question.
10 A. The Prijedor regional command was a military command established
11 with Colonel Arsic at its head. He was also concurrently commander of the
12 43rd Motorised Brigade which was a component of the JNA/VRS under General
13 Talic. And the Intervention Platoon is as stated in these documents, a
14 mix of military, police, and civilian police units that operated in the
15 Prijedor Municipality.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
18 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'd like to ask one question on
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Let's see what the question is.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: You want me to tell the question before I ask it.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the practice we've adopted.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, what I want to do is ask the witness
25 if he has spoken to anyone in the Office of the Prosecutor --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Since yesterday.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: -- Since yesterday regarding the testimony he has
3 given in this case or the testimony he might give in the case this
4 morning. And I mean anyone, has he spoken to anyone in the Office of the
5 Prosecutor about that.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't think there's any reason for that question.
8 There's nothing I've brought out in my re-examination today. There's
9 absolutely no reason for that. There's no foundation for the request. I
10 think it's fairly outrageous, and it's so broad it's meaningless cause it
11 could include saying hello to somebody buying a cup of coffee.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I will not allow the question, Mr. Ackerman.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, Let me just say for the record that
14 his testimonies seemed extremely well-prepared, and I'm not talking about
15 a cup of coffee.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness was here yesterday, and he also heard
17 the request that Mr. Nicholls made to be permitted to approach him and
18 discuss with him on a couple of matters. And my reaction to that, saying
19 no. If you want to indicate, make reference to any document, come here
20 and do it in open Court. So I have no reason to doubt that my advice or
21 my order has been disregarded by both the Prosecution and the witness.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: It has not, Your Honour. But in reflection, I've
23 no problem with the witness answering whether anybody's prepped him for
24 today in any way whatsoever.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to make a statement, Mr. Brown, on what
1 Mr. Ackerman has mentioned?
2 THE WITNESS: I really hope I don't have to. I was not prepped
3 for this morning.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have any questions? Do you have any
5 questions. And I don't have any questions either which means that your
6 testimony comes to an end here. I thank you, Mr. Brown, for having been
7 patient with us. And you may now leave the courtroom.
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll now have a 20-minute break. I'm trying to
11 save as much time as we can. And with your cooperation, Mr. Ackerman,
12 Ms. Korner, and the interpreters. 20 minutes.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I've only one request before Your Honour
14 rises. Mr. Ackerman provided a list, or Mr. Cunningham, of documents, but
15 I don't know whether Your Honours have a document that's called BT --
16 something we've never heard of.
17 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Let me clear up what that is.
18 MS. KORNER: BT152.
19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's a reference to Prosecutor's 227. I misread
20 the database. In 227 is the ARK Gazette, I think the first 36 entries,
21 something like that.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, Your Honour, may I say one other point
24 before you rise.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: It's very quick. I intend to submit as exhibits
2 now all of the documents not -- that were cited in his report that have
3 not already been made exhibits because the suggestion has been made that
4 those are necessary. We were trying to save paper, not pour more and more
5 documents, that's why I only put in the ones I referred to on the direct.
6 They were all provided to Mr. Ackerman. I sent him a letter before the
7 direct examination saying if you're missing any of these documents, we'll
8 replace them. But if the suggestion is being made that the report was
9 misleading because all of the footnotes were not entered into evidence,
10 I'd like to provide them all --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not the point. I'm not concerned about
12 Mr. Ackerman's concerns, as you see them. I'm more concerned about our
13 concerns because if at any time during this trial a submission is made on
14 the -- some -- one or more parts of this report or any other report which
15 supposedly is grounded on a document which is not in evidence, we have a
17 Let's say that the problem arising after all submissions have been
18 made and the case has practically come to an end except for our
19 deliberations. What do we do? We come back here and say Mr. Nicholls,
20 there is a document that has not been tendered in evidence, we would like
21 to refer to it, could you please tender it in evidence. That's the way it
22 should be done.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: I understand, Your Honour. I see the concern.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: We can face the problem. I don't know if we'll face
25 it or not, but we could face it.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Most of them are in and I'll admit the rest.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's better. And if you can do it in
3 electronic format or in a CD, I think it's better.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: I understand, Your Honour. Thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: 20 minutes.
6 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just want to ask if after we get
10 through these preliminaries that we're about to do that I can be excused.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Does that mean you'll not be turning up in the
14 afternoon as well?
15 MR. ACKERMAN: That's what it means, Your Honour. I'll try to
16 come back in the morning.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Just wanted to make sure. So go into closed
19 [Closed session]
13 Pages 21696-21703 – redacted – closed session
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: And we pretend that the -- we are starting from
3 here. So good afternoon to you, Mr. Blagojevic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You're about to give
6 evidence as a Defence witness in this trial, which has been instituted by
7 the Prosecutor against Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin. Our rules require that
8 before you do so, you enter a -- make a solemn declaration equivalent to
9 an oath that in the course of your testimony, you will be speaking the
10 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. To help you make this
11 declaration, the usher is going to hand you the text which you're kindly
12 asked to read out aloud, and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
13 Please go ahead.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please, take a chair.
17 As I said, if there are problems with interpretation at any time,
18 let me know. We are going to start now. We will finish in about 20
19 minutes' time. Then you will have a lunch break. And then we continue,
20 then at 3.00 in the afternoon, and we hope to finish by 4.30, without a
21 break in the afternoon. One hour and a half without a break, instead of
22 up to 5.00 with a break.
23 Yes, Mr. Cunningham.
24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honours. May I proceed?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
1 WITNESS: BORO BLAGOJEVIC
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Examined by Mr. Cunningham:
4 Q. Your name is Boro Blagojevic. Correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In what municipality do you currently reside in?
7 A. Banja Luka.
8 Q. Remember that I'm going to ask you questions, and I would like for
9 you to answer the questions as precisely and concisely as you can. And
10 try to give facts related only to that question. Don't volunteer
11 information because if myself, the Prosecution, or the Chamber needs
12 additional evidence, they will ask you for it. Do you understand those
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. And also make sure that you get close enough to the microphone so
16 that your answers can be heard by everyone, including the interpreters. I
17 don't think you need to lean that close to it, but...
18 And you told us you live in the Municipality of Banja Luka. What
19 is your job? What do you do in Banja Luka?
20 A. I am the secretary of the people's assembly of Republika Srpska.
21 Q. And how long have you held that position?
22 A. I've held this position since April of this year.
23 Q. Since April of 2003 or an earlier time?
24 A. 2003.
25 Q. Okay. I would like for you to give the Chamber the benefit of
1 your educational history. First of all, obviously you attended secondary
2 school. Where did you attend secondary school at?
3 A. In Banja Luka. I attended the secondary administrative school in
4 Banja Luka.
5 Q. And after completing your studies at the secondary administrative
6 school, did you go on to university?
7 A. Yes. After that, I graduated from the school of law in Banja
9 Q. And when did you graduate from the law faculty?
10 A. In 1987.
11 Q. And since your graduation in 1987, have you worked as a lawyer or
12 have you worked in administrative matters?
13 A. Immediately upon graduation, I applied to be an inspector in
14 Velika Kladusa in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I got the job, and I stayed in that
15 job for 11 months.
16 Q. And where did you go from there, after the 11 months?
17 A. After that, since my salary was rather low in that position, I
18 applied for the job of a revenue inspector in Bosanski Brod Municipality.
19 I got the job, and I stayed in that job from 1988 to 22nd July 1991.
20 Q. Let me stop you right there. Briefly tell us what you did, what
21 your responsibilities were as a revenue inspector?
22 A. Control of taxpayers and the calculation of tax dues.
23 Q. You told us that on 22 July 1991, you left. When you left, did
24 remain in that municipality, or did you go to a different municipality?
25 A. No. I went to my hometown of Banja Luka. I lived there as a
1 tenant. I did not have an apartment of my own. And I had rather large
2 outlays for accommodation and food.
3 Q. Let me stop you. Once you got to Banja Luka, did you seek
5 A. Yes. I looked for a job in Banja Luka, and I was willing to
6 consider even jobs that had nothing to do strictly with my profession.
7 Q. Did you have a difficult time finding a job in Banja Luka in July
8 and August and after, in 1991?
9 A. Yes. I did have a difficult time because there were at least 200
10 unemployed lawyers in Banja Luka at the time.
11 Q. And did you ultimately find a job in Banja Luka?
12 A. I went to the revenue administration in Banja Luka, and I asked if
13 they had a vacancy for an inspector. They told me there were no vacancies
14 at the moment, but that there is a vacancy in the commune of
15 municipalities, the joint municipalities, and that vacancy was for an
16 administrator or a director.
17 Q. Did you ultimately get that job?
18 A. I wrote my application to apply for that job. And when in
19 September 1991 they had a session, I was taken on that job, the job of
20 secretary of the municipality.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The organ concerned
22 is the association of municipalities.
23 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
24 Q. And we're going to come back and discuss in more detail your
25 dealings with the association of municipalities, so I don't need a great
1 deal of detail now. But tell the Chamber how long you remained with the
2 association of municipalities or any other entity that evolved from it.
3 And specifically, I'm talking about ARK.
4 A. Well, I stayed in the municipality of the autonomous region as
5 long as it existed. That was on the 14th of September 1991 they ceased to
7 Q. Where did you work after 14 September 1991?
8 A. After that date, I was jobless. The region did not exist any
9 more, and I was out of a job.
10 Q. And very briefly, when did you go back to work after losing your
11 job on 14 September 1991?
12 A. I returned -- I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand this.
13 Q. Sure. You told us that you lost your job on 14 September 1991.
14 And I take it there was a period of time that you were jobless. What I'm
15 trying to find out is when you next went back to work and what sort of
16 work you did.
17 A. On the 1st of March 1993, I found employment again in the national
18 assembly of Republika Srpska.
19 Q. And what position did you initially have with the national
20 assembly with the RS?
21 A. It was a deputies' centre or assemblymen's centre, situated in the
22 building of the municipality. It was a room where all delegates from the
23 Bosnian Krajina met. I got a job there. Since the headquarters of the
24 national assembly was at Pale, and I was unable to go there, that's where
25 I worked.
1 Q. And what were your job responsibilities at this job?
2 A. Occasionally, sessions of the council of the national assembly for
3 the economy and finances were held in Banja Luka. And I would serve there
4 as the secretary of that council, drawing up minutes, doing things like
6 Q. And have you been with the national assembly since the date that
7 you mentioned? I think March -- 1st March 1993.
8 A. Yes. I have been there since the 1st of March 1993.
9 Q. And in your current position, what are your responsibilities?
10 A. Well, my current responsibilities include preparing of the
11 sessions of the national assembly and all the background material required
12 for these sessions; preparation of laws for publishing in the Official
14 Q. I'm going to ask you questions about your party affiliation. Are
15 you now or have you ever been a member of the League of Communists, the
16 communist party?
17 A. Yes, before the war, I was a member of the League of Communists.
18 Currently, I am not a member of any party because my job is the job of a
19 civil servant. Civil servants may not be affiliated with political
21 Q. I understand that you're not currently affiliated with a political
22 party. But were you ever affiliated with the SDS?
23 A. No. I have never been an SDS member. I was for a while, however,
24 a member of the SNS, the party of Mrs. Plavsic when she was the head of
25 that party.
1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, I'm at an area where I would like to go
2 into private session based on what he has indicated to me.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while and we'll
4 see what this is all about.
5 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Cunningham.
2 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
3 Q. After you left your job in Bosanski Brod and went back to Banja
4 Luka, were you living in Banja Luka when a group known as the SOS appeared
5 in Banja Luka?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. And were you working in the municipal building, the municipality
8 building at that time?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what happened to you the day that the SOS appeared in Banja
11 Luka? Were you able to -- for example, were you able to get to work that
13 A. I set out to go to work that day. But at an intersection I was
14 turned by back a group of people. They told me I could not go on and I
15 had to go back home. I didn't know what it was all about.
16 Q. This group of people that turned you back and sent you home, how
17 were they dressed? Were they in civilian clothes or other clothes?
18 A. Well, they were all dressed differently.
19 Q. I guess the operative question is did they have guns? Were they
21 A. I don't remember.
22 Q. Okay. And in your job -- at this point, you're working for the
23 association of municipalities. Correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In your role with that association, did you have any dealings with
1 anyone beyond what you just described --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment.
3 MS. KORNER: Sorry, I think in the SOS is April 6, 1992. By that
4 stage, the association of the municipalities is the Autonomous Region of
5 Krajina Assembly.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right.
7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I appreciate the interruption.
8 Q. At the time the SOS arrives in April 1992, you're working for what
10 A. I was the secretary of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region.
11 Q. Okay. And that day that they appeared in April of 1992, beyond
12 what you've just described, being sent home in effect by a group of
13 people, did you have any other dealings with the SOS?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. You obviously were not involved in any sort of negotiation,
16 discussions with anyone with the SOS, I take it. Correct?
17 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, I'm going to ask he's not to lead on
18 matters like this.
19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Sure. Absolutely.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think Ms. Korner is right.
21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I have no problem with that, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.
23 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
24 Q. Were you involved in any discussions with any representatives of
25 the SOS?
1 A. No, I wasn't.
2 Q. In April 1992, did you have any idea who might be the leader of
3 the SOS?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you know the name of Nenad Stevandic? Does that name -- is
6 that name familiar to you?
7 A. I had never heard of him except that once when I received the
8 decision on the Crisis Staff. That's when I saw that name for the first
10 Q. And if I could show, with the usher's assistance, show the witness
12 Mr. Witness, that's a document that you've seen before. Correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That is a document -- 168 is a decision signed by Nikola Erceg
15 setting forth the members of the ARK Crisis Staff. Correct?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Number 15 is the individual we just mentioned, Mr. Stevandic.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you have any idea how it was that he got selected to serve on
21 the ARK Crisis Staff?
22 A. No, I don't know that.
23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, this would be a good breaking point
24 if it's in the Court's convenience.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham. I thank you.
1 We'll now have a lunch break, and we will resume at 3.00. You'll
2 be looked after, attended to by our staff. And you can now be -- he can
3 leave the courtroom now. Thank you.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll reconvene at 3.00. Thank you.
6 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.47 p.m.
7 ---On resuming at 3.04 p.m.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.
9 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Q. Sir, at the break we were talking about events in April and May of
11 1992. What I want to do now is backtrack, go back in time, to the time
12 that you spent working for the association of municipalities. Do you
13 remember again what month it was that you started working for the
14 association of municipalities?
15 A. It was in September 1992.
16 Q. September of 1992 or 1991?
17 A. 1991. 1991, that was.
18 Q. And what was the position that you had with the association of
20 A. I applied for the job of the secretary of the association of
21 municipalities, and that is the job that I was given.
22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'd like to show the witness, please,
23 Prosecutor's Exhibit 2354.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we have it. Binder 2.
25 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
1 Q. What were your job responsibilities as secretary of the
2 association of municipalities?
3 A. I was in charge of organising the sessions of the assembly of the
4 association of municipalities. I was supposed to secure the room where
5 the sessions would be taking place, and I was also taking the minutes of
6 all of these sessions.
7 Q. When you started there in September of 1991, were there any other
8 employees, paid employees, of the association of municipalities?
9 A. In the association of municipalities you mean?
10 Q. Yes, sir.
11 A. I don't think so. There was nobody.
12 Q. I want you -- you have in front of you Exhibit P2354. I want to
13 make sure that you recognise that document. Have you seen it before?
14 A. I saw it when I first joined. The association of municipalities
15 in May of that year, that was in 1991, the municipalities that joined in
16 the association signed this document in May 1991.
17 Q. All right. And obviously, the association that we have been
18 talking about for the past several minutes is the association of
19 municipalities for Bosanska Krajina. Correct, sir?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In the time that you were the secretary, I take it -- or did you
22 have the opportunity to read the statute?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did you know based on that reading and any other source what
25 the purpose of this association was? Why was this association formed, is
1 a better way of asking the question, if you know.
2 A. According to the amendments of the constitution of the Socialist
3 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is, the amendment 42 dating from
4 1997, the municipalities which were connected especially were able to join
5 into an association of municipalities in order to further their economic
7 Q. Was this association a voluntary association or a mandatory one?
8 A. It was a voluntary association.
9 Q. Do you know whether the municipality of Prijedor joined the
11 A. No, not at the time.
12 Q. And if you know, could you tell us why they didn't join? And if
13 you don't know, that's okay, too. You can just say you don't know.
14 A. I don't know why they didn't join at that time.
15 Q. Was this association intended to be strictly a Serbian entity?
16 That means for Serbs only?
17 A. No. No. This was done based on the constitution of the Socialist
18 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
19 Q. And in the time that you were with the association, were there
20 non-Serb members, non-Serb members of the assembly of this association?
21 A. Yes. There were representatives coming from the non-Serb parts of
22 the population.
23 Q. I'd like for you to open Exhibit 2354, Prosecutor's 2354, find
24 Article 35. And I'd like for you to read Article 35 silently to yourself.
25 And when you're done reading Article 35, let us know.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Have you read the second paragraph as well?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. Were the decisions of the association of
5 municipalities, specifically the assembly of that association, were they
6 binding on member municipalities?
7 A. Yes, they were providing those municipalities ratified them at the
8 sessions of their respective assemblies.
9 Q. If there was no ratification, would there be a legal law? Would
10 there be a legal pronouncement?
11 A. No. Those municipalities did not have to abide by those decisions
12 in that case.
13 Q. I'd like for you to look at Article 38 which deals -- is under the
14 heading of "amendments." I'd like you to find that portion. It's about
15 four paragraphs long. I'd like you to read it silently to yourself and
16 let us know when you're done reading it because I'm going to ask you some
17 questions about that. Ready? Have you read it?
18 A. Yes, Article 38. Yes, that is a proposal to amend the statute of
19 the association of municipalities.
20 Q. Based on your understanding of administrations as well as your
21 understanding of the law, does Article 38 set out the only way that the
22 statute can be amended?
23 A. Yes, that is correct. Any amendment of the statute can -- could
24 be done following the proposal of the assembly of the association of
25 municipalities, or the executive council of the region.
1 Q. What would happen -- what effect, if any, would an amendment have
2 if it didn't follow this procedure?
3 A. It would be contrary to the statute of the association, that is,
4 of the region. And then it wouldn't be binding upon the two.
5 Q. I'm done with that exhibit. And I'd like to show the witness,
6 just so they're available, Prosecutor's 80 and 81, please.
7 You told us that you started working for the association in
8 September of 1991. At around that same time, did the association change
9 its name?
10 A. Yes, it did. It became the Autonomous Region of Krajina, so it's
11 name was the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina from then on.
12 Q. Okay. And what position -- did you continue to work for the ARK?
13 A. I was the secretary of the assembly.
14 Q. Okay. You had the same -- I take it you had the same position you
15 had when you worked for the association of municipalities. Is that
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. By this time, had anyone else been hired to join you as an
19 employee of the ARK?
20 A. No. There was just one professional, that was the president of
21 the assembly, Mr. Vojo Kupresanin. He was the only professional,
22 gainfully employed professional. There were just the two of us fully
24 Q. When the association of municipalities changed into the ARK, did
25 its competence change, if you know?
1 A. No, they didn't.
2 Q. All right. You mentioned Mr. Kupresanin's name as being the other
3 employee. Because of his position and your position, did you develop a
4 professional relationship? By that I mean, did you work with him on a
5 daily or regular basis?
6 A. No, no. Not every day.
7 Q. How often would you see Mr. Kupresanin in the course of your
8 duties? How often, say, during a typical workweek would you see him and
9 work with him, talk with him?
10 A. During that period of time, in April of that year, he had a heart
11 failure, so he spent a lot of time in various spas, in rehabilitation.
12 Q. So tell the Chamber what that means in terms of you -- how often
13 you would see him, how often you would work with him. What was your
14 relationship with him like?
15 A. Due to his medical condition, during that period of time, I would
16 see him very rarely.
17 Q. I want to take you now to April of 1992. Are you still holding
18 the same position with the ARK that you've described for the Chamber? Do
19 you still have that job?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. In April, specifically towards the end of April of the year 1992,
22 did you become aware of instructions that were promulgated and signed by
23 Prime Minister Branko Dzeric?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'd like to show the witness, please --
1 A. I read about that in the Official Gazette of the Serbian Republic
2 of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'd like with the usher's assistance show you
4 Prosecutor's Exhibit 157 and make sure that you and I are talking about
5 the same document.
6 Q. Sir, any time I hand you a document, I want it to be understood
7 that -- I'd like for it to be understood that you can have as much time as
8 you need to examine the document, become acquainted with the document,
9 because I don't want to talk about a document that you haven't had a
10 chance to look at.
11 A. Yes, that is the document.
12 Q. We know just by reading the heading of the document it's an
13 excerpt from instructions for the work of the municipal Crisis Staffs of
14 the Serbian people. Was there ever any similar document to this that
15 dealt with, if you will, regional Crisis Staffs?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Does this document ever mention, to the best of your knowledge,
18 regional Crisis Staffs?
19 A. As far as I can see in this document, no.
20 Q. When you were working for the ARK when this document -- when you
21 found out about this document, when you read it, what effect, if any, did
22 it have on you?
23 A. None whatsoever.
24 Q. I'm done with that exhibit. And I'd like to talk to the witness
25 now about Prosecutor's Exhibit 167.
1 Let me know when you're ready because I'd like to ask you some
2 questions about this, sir.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. This is obviously a document 4 May 1992 attributed to the
5 secretary of the regional secretariat for national defence, Colonel Sajic.
6 I want you to look at under the decision paragraph number 5, does that
7 paragraph deal with disarmament of paramilitary formations?
8 A. Yes, it does.
9 Q. Now, this document is dated 4 May 1992. In the days after 4 May
10 1992, did you continue to work for the ARK when it was -- when the ARK
11 Crisis Staff was in existence?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. And in the days that followed this decision in P167 dated 4 May
14 1992, did the ARK Crisis Staff issue documents dealing with disarmament of
15 paramilitary formations?
16 A. Did it issue any?
17 Q. Did they issue -- was that a topic that was contained in
18 conclusions by the ARK Crisis Staff, the subject of disarmament of
19 paramilitary formations?
20 A. Yes. They constantly appealed to paramilitary formations to hand
21 in their weapons.
22 Q. Okay. We can see from the face of the document that it was
23 generated by the republic's secretariat of national defence. If you know,
24 when did this republic secretariat for national defence or the regional
25 secretariat for national defence, do you know when that came into
2 A. I can't remember exactly. But I believe that it was on the 4th of
3 March 1992 that the Assembly of the Autonomous Region appointed the
4 Executive Committee which had several secretariats. But I don't know
5 whether the secretariat for national defence was among them. But I'm not
6 sure. I can't remember.
7 Q. Do you know when, if at all, the regional secretariat was up and
8 running, to use a word that I've heard you use before, when it was alive?
9 A. I really don't know whether it actually started operating because
10 according to a decision of the Crisis Staff passed on the 15th of May, it
11 was appealed that the work of the regional secretariat for national
12 defence should be organised, that is 11 days after this decision that I
13 can see in front of me.
14 Q. Let's go ahead and put Prosecutor's Exhibit 227 in front of you
15 and go to the conclusions of 15 May 1992, which is entry 11. Again,
16 that's 15 May 1992. And I will direct your attention down to number 4.
17 A. 15th of May.
18 Q. I stand corrected if I said anything else. Yeah, it is 15 May.
19 It's the conclusions that day, and I would direct your attention to number
21 A. Yes, yes. In conclusion number 4, it says: "The operation of the
22 regional secretariat for national defence should be immediately
23 organised." So we can see from this that it hadn't been organised yet at
24 this point.
25 Q. And do you know, to jump ahead a little bit, do you know whether
1 or not it was ever organised?
2 A. No, I really don't know that.
3 Q. Now, you were present at ARK Crisis Staff meetings, and I know
4 that you have read the Gazette, the ARK Gazette, that contains the
5 decisions and conclusions. Would it be safe to say that the subject of
6 disarmament of paramilitaries was a topic of conversation among those who
7 attended the Crisis Staff meetings?
8 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.
10 MS. KORNER: I really do think this is quite an important topic,
11 and I think it is right the witness should give his own answers and not be
12 led on what was the topic of conversation.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'll rephrase the question.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.
16 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
17 Q. Did the subject of paramilitaries ever come up at ARK Crisis Staff
19 A. Yes, yes, very frequently.
20 Q. And when the subject came up, which ethnicities, if any, were of
21 concern to the people in attendance?
22 A. Well, I can't remember that they discussed any particular
24 Q. Did they discuss Serb paramilitaries?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was that a concern of people in attendance at ARK Crisis Staff
3 A. Well, probably, among other things.
4 Q. Well, I would --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I would rather prefer to have a more clear-cut
7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's what I'm going to try to do.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly, because this probably -- I mean, it's...
9 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
10 Q. Witness, I'd like for you to give this Chamber an idea of if the
11 topic was discussed, how often it was discussed, meaning did it come up
12 every meeting, once a week, once a month? Give the Chamber an idea of how
13 often this subject came up.
14 A. Well, it is difficult to recall that now. But very frequently.
15 Q. Okay. I would like for you to get even more specific if you can.
16 When you say "very frequently," how often was it? Did it come up at each
18 A. Well, we can see from the conclusions every time conclusions were
19 adopted, and included a conclusion on that issue, that means that the
20 discussion centered, among other things, on that.
21 Q. And if I've asked this question before, I apologise, and I think I
22 have, but can you give us any idea which ethnicities, when we're talking
23 about paramilitaries, which ethnicities the members were concerned with?
24 Were they concerned with Serb paramilitaries, Croat paramilitaries,
25 Bosniak paramilitaries, what?
1 A. I think all paramilitaries were of concern to them.
2 Q. I jumped ahead a little bit, and I had you talk about some events
3 that happened after the ARK Crisis Staff was formed. What I'd like to do
4 now is go back and have you tell us your recollection of the events
5 leading up to the ARK Crisis Staff. And I'd like to show you again an
6 exhibit you've already looked at, and that is Exhibit 168 from the
7 Prosecutor. That is the decision of 5 May 1992 signed by the president,
8 Mr. Erceg.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You remember this document from our earlier conversations.
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. I apologise for interrupting. This document is dated 5 May 1992.
14 When did you first become aware of this document?
15 A. I first became aware of it the next day after the session was
17 Q. And in your job duties and in the time you spent there, did you
18 become aware of why the Crisis Staff was formed? Was there a specific
19 event or events that prompted it?
20 A. No, no, I really don't.
21 Q. I want you to look under paragraph 1, it lists the 15 people -- I
22 want you to look at the first 15 individuals.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know where did these 15 individuals come from? Were
25 they -- do you know which municipality they came from?
1 A. They're all from Banja Luka.
2 Q. Look at number 16: Did the order, the decision, if you will, did
3 it provide for any individuals from other municipalities to be part of the
4 Crisis Staff?
5 A. Not at that time.
6 Q. Okay. Doesn't paragraph or entry number 16 deal with the -- the
7 English translation is "presidents of municipalities"?
8 A. I don't understand that question.
9 Q. Well, read paragraph 16. What does it say? Entry number 16; it's
10 not paragraph number 16.
11 A. I don't have the B/C/S version.
12 Yes. Item 16, it says: "Presidents of Crisis Staffs of the
13 Municipality" --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead. Sorry for interrupting you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Item 16 says: "Presidents of
16 the Crisis Staffs of Municipalities." It must be abbreviated. They
17 probably mean municipalities. And item 17, I don't know what it means. I
18 don't understand.
19 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
20 Q. Okay. It would appear that the majority of the members are from
21 Banja Luka. Do you know why on this regional body most of the people came
22 from Banja Luka? Do you have any idea?
23 A. I really don't know.
24 Q. Fair enough. During this time, in the early part of May 1992, did
25 you have any conversations with Mr. Kupresanin about your working with the
1 ARK Crisis Staff?
2 A. Yes, I did. He told me the day after it was established that some
3 sort of Crisis Staff was established for the region. And he said the
4 president of the government, that is, the prime minister of the
5 Serbian Republic, Mr. Dzeric, would probably not like it because he had
6 only issued instructions for Crisis Staffs to be created on the level of
7 municipalities, and he speculated this decision would cause an even
8 greater conflict among municipalities, or rather between municipalities on
9 the one hand and the government of the Republika Srpska and the region on
10 the other hand.
11 Q. All right. And did he give you any advice as to whether or not
12 you should go work, continue to work with the ARK in this form, that is,
13 the Crisis Staff?
14 A. Yes, he did. He told me "be there, see what people want you to
15 do. Otherwise you'll be out of a job." That's what he said. Because for
16 all practical purposes, the Assembly of the Autonomous Region was not
18 Q. Were you given any specific tasks other than what you have just
19 described for the Chamber?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Specifically, were you ever tasked, were you ever asked to be
22 responsible for the taking of the minutes or anything like that?
23 A. No, I was never responsible for the minutes.
24 Q. Would that have been a job, a responsibility of yours as the
25 secretary to the assembly?
1 A. Yes. It would have been precisely my responsibility. But in
2 order for minutes to be drawn up, some record has to be taken or
3 recordings have to be made in order for the minutes to accurately reflect
4 the discussion. An audiorecording would be required for proper minutes to
5 be made.
6 Q. I understand that you didn't take the minutes. But I take it --
7 well, let me ask it so it's a nonleading question. Did you attend
8 meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff?
9 A. Yes. Yes, I did. We did.
10 Q. I know you didn't take the minutes, but did you ever take any
11 rough notes, any personal notes to try to capture --
12 A. My job was only to take note of what everyone -- what every
13 individual was suggesting as a conclusion. Usually after one item has
14 been discussed, everyone would suggest a conclusion or their version of a
15 conclusion, because there were many people present. At the outset, there
16 were not so many. But later on, deputies arrived from the territory of
17 Krajina, and the total rose to 30.
18 Q. Okay. I just want to try to have you tell the Chamber that while
19 you attended these meetings, did you keep any handwritten notes, anything
20 like that?
21 A. After we would arrive at some conclusion, they would be typed out.
22 There was no strict rule, no strict procedure according to which the
23 session was held. People talked in turn, sometimes interrupted each
24 other. And there was no strict procedure wherein we would have an agenda
25 and then go from item to item. When you analyse the conclusions, you can
1 see that there was no systematic agenda.
2 Q. We'll come to that in a minute. Here's my question. I know you
3 didn't take the minutes. You told us that. I'm wondering if you wrote
4 down anything during these meetings. If you did so, whether there's any
5 of those documents still in existence today.
6 A. No, no. Under the item "draft conclusion," which would take up
7 one page, we would write our suggestions.
8 Q. How long did you hold on to any personal notes or personal
9 handwritings? Did you hold on to them for any period of time or did you
10 throw them away? What did you do with them?
11 A. I didn't hold on to them at all. As soon as the conclusions were
12 typed out on a typewriter, I threw the drafts away. I didn't hold on to
13 them at all.
14 Q. I want to talk with you -- who ultimately became the president of
15 the ARK Crisis Staff?
16 A. Well, Mr. Brdjanin, through this decision signed by Mr. Erceg.
17 Q. And I want to talk to you about your knowledge if any about how he
18 became president. And you had indicated to me that this is something you
19 wanted to discuss in private session. I'm bringing this up only as a
20 courtesy to you because of what you told me. If you want to discuss it in
21 private session, which means it is not being broadcast, that is something
22 we can bring up with the President of the Chamber. So as a courtesy to
23 you, I'm bringing that point up now.
24 A. It's all the same to me. You don't have to do it in private
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham.
2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I just wanted to make
4 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay. You can still play the requiem later on
5 in the day.
6 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
7 Q. What was Mr. Kupresanin's position with the ARK region?
8 A. Mr. Kupresanin was the president or the speaker of the Assembly of
9 the Autonomous Region at that time. Mr. Brdjanin was then vice-president.
10 And there was also Mr. Knezevic from Drvar who was copresident. So Mr.
11 Brdjanin was one vice-president, and Mr. Knezevic was another
13 Q. Did Mr. Kupresanin have any interest in becoming the president of
14 the ARK Crisis Staff?
15 A. No, he didn't. As I said, he was a sickly man. And as a result
16 of his previous outspokenness in the assembly, he was not very popular
17 with the army or the police because he constantly criticised their work.
18 But he was reluctant to clash directly with Mr. Dzeric. And he quoted
19 that as the reason for not taking over the presidency.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. How do you know this and he quoted it
21 to whom? Did you ever have a tete-a-tete discussion with him? Did you
22 discuss this with him? How come you know that he was reluctant? How do
23 you know this?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a matter of discussion at one
25 of the sessions of the Crisis Staff when the deputies asked why
1 Mr. Kupresanin as president of the assembly was not ex officio president
2 of the Crisis Staff, and that was the explanation he gave at one of the
3 sessions of the Crisis Staff.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Mr. Cunningham.
5 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
6 Q. Did Mr. Kupresanin ever give you any other reason besides his
7 health and what you've just stated about why he didn't want to be
8 president of the Crisis Staff? Did he ever make any statements about the
9 competence, if any, of the Crisis Staff?
10 A. Yes, he did. He said: "Why should I assume responsibility for
11 one body if the government left it to municipalities to appoint and
12 replace directors of enterprises and all the other positions?" The
13 government of Republika Srpska appointed directors of enterprises of
14 republican importance, and it was stipulated that the directors and other
15 appointees of the government, including municipal authorities, are
16 accountable to the bodies that appointed them. And that is one of the
17 reasons why he didn't take over.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Who came up with the suggestion or the nomination
19 of -- who came up with the suggestion that it should be Radoslav Brdjanin,
20 president of the ARK Crisis Staff? Who nominated him, or who appointed
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know. I
23 wasn't there when the Crisis Staff was set up. The Crisis Staff of
24 Krajina. I didn't attend that session. I started attending only when
25 sessions had been underway for a while. I didn't know -- I didn't know
1 anything about that time when Mr. Erceg set up the Crisis Staff.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: You never came to know who appointed Radoslav
3 Brdjanin as president of the Crisis Staff?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, I didn't. I never found
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.
7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 I'd like to have the witness to have available P168, which is the
9 listing of the members of the Crisis Staff because I'm going to ask him
10 some questions about specific members.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Could we have it on the ELMO, please, as well.
12 Maybe Ms. Gustin has an extra copy that we could temporarily make use of.
13 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I've got a clean copy right here, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
15 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
16 Q. Sir, you just told us just a minute ago, and I'm quoting: "I
17 started only attending when the sessions had been underway for a while."
18 What does that mean? What's your recollection of when you started
20 A. No, no. You didn't understand me. It's not that I arrived at
21 sessions late. It's that I didn't attend the founding session where the
22 members were elected, so I don't know anything about that session.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Were the members elected or were they appointed?
24 Because I don't think -- this is the first time I'm hearing that the
25 members of the ARK Crisis Staff were elected. Are you sure they were
1 elected and not appointed by the Executive Council of the Autonomous
2 Region of Krajina?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they were appointed. I
4 misspoke. Nobody elected them.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Just to make it clear, yes. Yes,
6 Mr. Cunningham.
7 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
8 Q. I also wanted to follow up on something you said earlier. I think
9 you said that the Crisis Staff presidents were not there at first. Could
10 you clarify what you meant by that.
11 A. At first, I didn't attend. At the beginning, the composition is
12 as it says here. And then after a few sessions, they started arriving;
13 that is, the deputies and presidents of various municipalities.
14 Q. As they started arriving, did any of the members on this list,
15 P168, stop attending?
16 A. The majority of them stopped attending. They attended a few
17 times. I don't know how many times they attended. However, later on,
18 they stopped attending.
19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, may I point out a possible mistake in the
20 transcription. Page 67, line 1, the witness says "at first, I didn't
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hmm.
23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And I think it should be "they," referring to the
24 Crisis Staff presidents, municipal Crisis Staff presidents didn't attend.
25 So if I could ask him a question to clarify that.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.
2 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
3 Q. When you -- I want to just clarify. Did the Crisis Staff --
4 municipal Crisis Staff presidents attend at first?
5 A. No. At first, they didn't attend.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. I think that's clear now.
7 And you were at all the subsequent meetings after the Crisis Staff
8 was appointed. I want to talk to you, based on your recollection - and I
9 realise it has been several years - do you know how many times Mr. Radic
11 A. I can't remember. He may have attended once or twice, but I can't
12 remember exactly how many times he attended. It was certainly not more
13 than two times.
14 Q. And did he, Mr. Radic, ever express his attitude towards the
15 competence of the ARK Crisis Staff to you? Did you ever hear him talking
16 about that?
17 A. Yes. He said immediately that this body does not have any
18 foundation, and that municipalities work on the basis of the instructions
19 of the work of the Crisis Staff which was issued by the president of the
20 government, Mr. Dzeric.
21 Q. Just so it's clear, when you say that the municipalities work on
22 the basis of the instructions of the work of the Crisis Staff, are you
23 referring to a municipal Crisis Staff or a regional Crisis Staff?
24 A. Municipal Crisis Staffs.
25 Q. Now, Mr. Radic was a member of the ARK Crisis Staff. You tell us
1 he could not have attended more than two times. You told us about his
2 attitude about the ARK Crisis Staff. Was he ever sanctioned or punished
3 or penalised for failing to attend?
4 A. No, nobody suffered any consequences for not attending.
5 Q. I want you to look at P168 because I'm going to ask you similar
6 questions for everyone there, from number 2 to number 15. Number 2, the
7 individual reflected there, what is your recollection as to the number of
8 times he attended?
9 A. If my memory serves me right, he may have attended a few times.
10 Q. When you say "a few," is that a majority of the time, meaning more
11 than half of the meetings? Or do you have any recollection?
12 A. I can't remember.
13 Q. Fair enough. What about the individual reflected in number 3,
14 Mr. Kupresanin? How often did he attend?
15 A. He attended very often.
16 Q. Okay. You've told us his - Mr. Kupresanin's - attitude towards
17 the Crisis Staff and its competence over the time that the Crisis Staff
18 was in existence. Did his attitude ever change, "his" being
19 Mr. Kupresanin's?
20 A. He perceived this body as a body which rallied around itself,
21 deputies from Bosanska Krajina. A body which was supposed devise the
22 strategy that the deputies from Krajina will adopt at the sessions of the
23 Assembly of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. Okay. What about the gentleman reflected in number 4? Did he
25 attended often?
1 A. No, not that often. At that time, he was the president of the
2 executive council of the region. And this body was very busy. He himself
3 was in charge of various funds, the retirement fund, the health fund, the
4 education, healthcare. All of these services were funded from the funds
5 of the executive council of the region. There was a law on tax on the
6 sales of goods and services which was adopted by the national assembly.
7 All of these monies were paid into the funds in the region of Krajina.
8 Q. And I appreciate that information at the end, but remember to keep
9 your answers focussed to the question that I ask. I'm not criticising
10 you, but please try to do that. It will easier for everyone involved.
11 You say -- your answer when I asked you "did he attend often," you
12 say no, he didn't attend that often. I appreciate that, but it doesn't
13 give the Chamber an idea of how often that is. Does it attend half the
14 time, a third of the time? If you can quantify it, at all, could you
15 please try to do that, sir.
16 A. Maybe one-third of the time. But I can't be sure of that.
17 Q. Okay. Were you aware of Mr. Erceg ever being sanctioned or
18 penalised for not attending the meeting of the ARK Crisis Staff?
19 A. No, nobody suffered any consequences for nonattendance.
20 Q. The next name on the list, number 6, is Dr. Vukic. How often did
21 he attend, if you recall?
22 A. I can't remember exactly.
23 Q. What about the gentleman at number 7, Dr. Milanovic? Did he
24 attend all the time, some of the time, none of the time? What is your
1 A. I can't remember. Really, I can't.
2 Q. I'm going to skip number 8 and I'll come back to that because I
3 want to spend a little time there. But the gentleman reflected at number
4 9, do you remember how often he attended?
5 A. No, I can't. I can't remember.
6 Q. Did there come a time when what I'll call the Banja Luka
7 contingent, those individuals reflected here in 1 through 15, that they
8 started attending less and less and less?
9 A. I believe so, yes.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham, I mean, the way you phrased the
11 question and the way it has been answered, which is no surprise to me,
12 gets us nowhere because we were getting there bit by bit by reference to
14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And I still intend to do that.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And if you stop halfway as you did, I don't think we
16 can justify the conclusion of the witness, especially since we have left
17 number 1 out.
18 Anyway, let's go ahead.
19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I apologise, Your Honour. I'll get back on track
20 following your instructions.
21 Q. We left off with number 9. Let's talk about the individual
22 reflected in number 10. Did he attend every meeting? What is your
23 recollection of his attendance record, sir?
24 A. I don't remember.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't remember how often Stojan Zupljanin
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
3 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
4 Q. What about Mr. Kuzmanovic or Dr. Kuzmanovic?
5 A. I think that he resigned very soon afterwards, and he was
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, he is right. This document, in a way, is
8 outdated, or was superceded by another one. But don't worry about it. We
9 can get the name. There is the Gazette, 227, where we have the revised
11 MS. KORNER: That's right, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: If you can supply the name, Ms. Korner --
13 MS. KORNER: It's Dr. Mrdjanic, I believe. I'm just checking
15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I believe you're correct.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not important. Go to number 12, Milan Puvacic.
17 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
18 Q. What can you tell us about this gentleman's attendance at the ARK
19 Crisis Staff meetings?
20 A. I can't remember that very clearly, but not that often.
21 Q. All right. The gentleman reflected at number 13.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Jovo Rosic.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same goes for him. I don't
25 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
1 Q. Okay. What about number 14?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Slobodan Dubocanin?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember either.
4 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
5 Q. Finally, number 15, what's your recollection there?
6 A. I don't remember how many times he attended.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: So you don't remember anything about 10, 11 we still
8 have to say, 12, 13, 14, 15. You haven't been asked on number 8. You
9 don't remember much about 9. You haven't told us about number 1. That's
10 Radoslav Brdjanin. You know very little about Sajic. Erceg you gave us
11 an approximation. Radic, you were quite firm about. And Kupresanin the
13 So what makes you so firm in your mind to answer Mr. Cunningham's
14 question suggesting that at a certain time the representation of -- or the
15 attendance of the Banja Luka group dwindled to nothing, or almost? What
16 makes you come to that conclusion?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have said a moment ago. Later on,
18 it was mostly delegates from the Bosnian Krajina that made up the
19 sessions, and the executive council members, because they discussed topics
20 of republican importance.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Mr. Cunningham.
22 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
23 Q. Let's go and talk about the two names, the two numbers we left
24 out. The first one is the accused, Mr. Brdjanin. Was he there every
25 meeting? What's your recollection?
1 A. I think he did.
2 Q. Okay. Let's talk now about number 8, General Talic. How many
3 times did you remember him attending?
4 A. I can't remember him attending except once. I know that once
5 delegates from Krajina, representatives of municipalities, demanded from
6 General Talic that the May issue, the May generation of soldiers who were
7 sent to serve in the army be not sent to Herzegovina or the area of Mount
8 Romanija, but rather be kept within barracks within the territory of
9 Bosnian Krajina.
10 Q. Okay. We'll talk about that in a minute. But what I'd like for
11 you to do is look at P227, that is the ARK Gazette, and go to the entry
12 for May 22 -- excuse me, 22 May 1992. And I want you to look at entry
13 number 4 under the conclusions. I want you to read that to yourself. And
14 when you're done reading, let us know so I can ask you a question.
15 Are you ready?
16 Why -- do you know why this conclusion, number 4, was issued?
17 A. Well, the coordination between the army and the Crisis Staff was
18 very, very poor. In view of the law on the army and the division within
19 the army where you know exactly who is answerable to whom, for instance
20 corps commanders are accountable to the Ministry of Defence or the General
21 Staff, they report to them, et cetera, et cetera. There was absolutely no
22 coordination between this Crisis Staff and the army. There were several
23 instances in which army tried to mobilise delegates to the assembly,
24 although assemblymen were exempt from military service.
25 In other words, the cooperation and coordination between civilian
1 authorities and military authorities was indeed very poor.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham, I'm full aware of which
3 conclusion you are questioning the witness about. But -- leave it, usher.
4 Leave it. But I'm also pretty sure that conclusion number 4 that we see
5 on the ELMO now is not the conclusion that you are questioning him about.
6 MR. CUNNINGHAM: To tell you the truth, Judge, I didn't even look.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Have a look at it now. Let's find the right one.
8 At least we owe it to the public who may be following the proceedings.
9 MS. KORNER: It's page 26.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.
11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Tenancy rights.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: And I know which one you're questioning him about,
13 but the public wouldn't be able to understand what you're talking about
14 and what he is talking about.
15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Now, if I might continue, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.
17 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
18 Q. It says here "mandatory attendance is requested." By him,
19 Mr. General Talic, or his designee. Following this conclusion did General
20 Talic attend ARK Crisis Staff meetings beyond the one instance that you
22 A. No. He sent a representative of the corps who was in charge of
23 civilian affairs.
24 Q. Was that -- what role did that individual - I think it's a
25 Colonel Vujinovic - what role if any did he have with the ARK Crisis
2 A. I think his role to convey everything that was said at sessions of
3 the Crisis Staff to his superiors.
4 Q. You mentioned earlier that there was an instance where there were
5 questions for General Talic related to I believe you said some conscripts.
6 Do you remember mentioning that earlier?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Earlier on when you were asked whether you recall
8 Mr. Talic -- General Talic ever attending meetings of the ARK Crisis
9 Staff. You said yes, I remember once, one occasion --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the only thing I recall.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: And you referred to the topic that was discussed on
12 that occasion about the allocation, also your relocation of soldiers
13 within a specific area. I think Mr. Cunningham wants to question you
14 about that debate.
15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'd like to refer to P227, entry number 11. In
16 the English version it's page 20. It's the conclusions 15 May 1992.
17 Q. Specifically, sir, I'll direct your attention under those
18 conclusions to conclusion number 5.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Having read that, are these the talks that you were -- that you
21 referred to earlier?
22 A. Yes, that's it.
23 Q. And do you know whether or not these talks ever took place?
24 A. No, I don't know. I don't know whether he complied with the
25 demands of the people who sent him this. I really have no knowledge of
2 Q. Let's break it down. When you say "he," I take it you're
3 referring to General Talic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When you talk about the demands of the people, tell us as best as
6 you can what you're referring to. What are the demands?
7 A. Well, the demands of the people who attended a session of the
8 Crisis Staff and who asked him to do this.
9 Q. And so you don't know the result, if any, of these talks.
11 A. No, I don't.
12 Q. Earlier on, you had told us that -- you had mentioned that the ARK
13 Crisis Staff did not have any procedures. What I'd like for you to do now
14 is to paint a picture, if you will, describe for the Chamber what a
15 typical meeting was like. First of all, did anyone control the meetings?
16 Was there a chairman, a person who led the discussions or anything like
18 A. Well, Mr. Brdjanin was the chairperson. But it was not exactly
19 the rules of procedure of that body. People asked for the floor,
20 suggested topics, and whatever the person who got the floor wanted to say,
21 they would say. And they would raise whatever issues they saw fit. There
22 was no agenda.
23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: [Previous interpretation continues]...
24 If I could have the interpreter say something --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear us now? Can you hear the
1 interpreter now?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you hear the interpreter now, Mr. Cunningham?
3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I can't hear anything.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I suggest you change your headphones.
5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: If I could have the interpreter say something.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, can you hear us now? It's channel 4.
7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm on channel 4. Still a -- can I borrow those.
8 No, it's just there's a lot of static in this one now.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: If you want, you can actually also move to where
10 Mr. Ackerman was standing.
11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Let me see how this works, Judge. And if not,
12 I'll just slide over.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Is it better now? Can you hear the English
14 channel now?
15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I can hear it loud and clear. Thank you.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
17 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
18 Q. You say that there was no agenda. How would the subject of
19 discussion -- how would they be decided?
20 A. Well, the participants would ask for the floor and suggest a
21 subject of debate. They would say: "I am not happy with the situation in
22 this or that area, and I would like to say a few words about it."
23 Q. And who would be the individual who would recognise the speaker so
24 they could take the floor?
25 A. Mr. Brdjanin.
1 Q. When the meetings ended -- after the meetings ended, would the
2 representatives be mailed a copy of the agenda, the proposed agenda, for
3 the next meeting?
4 A. No, no. They would come to an agreement immediately when they
5 would meet again. They would agree on that at the end of each session.
6 Q. And then when they would meet at the --
7 A. It is common knowledge that there were frequent power cuts at that
8 time. Communications did not work. So they couldn't count on that. They
9 would set a date immediately for the next meeting.
10 Q. Did any of the representatives from the municipalities ever have
11 difficulty in getting to Banja Luka for Crisis Staff meetings?
12 A. I don't know. I don't know if they had any problems or not. At
13 that time, problems were very common. There was a shortage of fuel and a
14 shortage of all staples. But the main problem was transport.
15 Q. Okay. We know from looking at the Gazette that there were a
16 number of decisions and conclusions issued by the ARK Crisis Staff. Was
17 there a voting procedure in determining whether a conclusion should be
18 adopted, if that's the word?
19 A. No. No, there wasn't.
20 Q. The very last area that I want to talk to you, and I think we can
21 get it done in the limited time that we have, is -- deals with the
22 physical plant of the ARK Crisis Staff. And by that, I mean the offices.
23 First of all, where did the ARK Crisis Staff meet at?
24 A. The Autonomous Region of Krajina's Assembly -- or the Autonomous
25 Region of Krajina as an authority did not have its own premises. The
1 assembly also met in the offices of other bodies, because they had none of
2 their own. And the sessions of this Crisis Staff were also held in the
3 municipal building of Banja Luka in a hall that could seat from 30 to 40
4 people. 30, I would say.
5 Q. When it was held in borrowed office space, what was it like? Was
6 it crowded? Did everyone have a place to sit? What was it like?
7 MS. KORNER: I don't think, Your Honour, he said that the Crisis
8 Staff met anywhere else. He's talked about the assembly meeting
9 elsewhere, but not the Crisis Staff.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, Ms. Korner. Ms. Korner is right.
11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Let me see if I can clarify that, Your Honour.
12 Q. Did the ARK Crisis Staff ever meet in any offices?
13 MS. KORNER: Outside the municipal building, you mean?
14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: No, I mean in any offices.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: If you are asking in any offices, that, he has
17 Where did the Crisis Staff -- the ARK Crisis Staff meet? Not the
18 Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, but the ARK Crisis Staff?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Crisis Staff met in the building
20 of the municipality of Banja Luka.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Always there?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, always there.
23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Final questions, and I think I can get this done
24 in two minutes.
25 Q. If you can look at, again, Exhibit P227, which is the ARK Gazette,
1 go to entry number 15. On the English version, that's page 26, and
2 specifically looking at entry number 1 under the conclusions.
3 Sir, that conclusion says: "By 30 May 1992, the second floor of
4 the employment bureau building is to be fully prepared to house the
5 offices of the ARK." Do you see that?
6 A. Yes, I can see that.
7 Q. Did that ever come to fruition? Meaning did the ARK -- any part
8 of the ARK ever move into that office space on the second floor?
9 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, what is the ARK? Do you mean the
10 Crisis Staff, the Assembly?
11 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
12 Q. Did any entity associated with the Autonomous Region of Krajina
13 move into the second floor of the employment bureau building as reflected
14 in this conclusion?
15 A. No. No, they didn't.
16 Q. Do you know why that is?
17 A. I think that the medical faculty occupied those premises at the
18 time. And a lot of funds would have had to be invested in the required
19 renovation and adaptation to the purposes of the assembly of the
20 autonomous region.
21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, I'm at a perfect breaking point if
22 this is where we're going to break for the day.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Cunningham.
24 I thank you, Mr. Blagojevic, as well. We haven't finished as you
25 know, as you see. We will continue tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning. And
1 I better advise you that it's very unlikely that we finish tomorrow. So
2 we'll probably go -- I'm pretty certain that we will go into Friday. And I
3 hope that we will finish by Friday.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I just mention because of course the
5 witness hasn't finished his evidence in chief, we will give Your Honours
6 later on today or Your Honours' secretaries a potential list of exhibits,
7 but it may be added depending on what he says tomorrow.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, I appreciate that, Ms. Korner.
9 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I just wanted to notify the Chamber as well as
10 Ms. Korner, I think I'll finish right around the first session tomorrow.
11 I think I'll be done around the first break or just passed that. So I'm
12 right on schedule.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's fine, Mr. Cunningham. I'm still pretty sure
14 that we won't finish tomorrow.
15 MS. KORNER: I don't know whether Your Honour's reading my mind or
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, Mr. Blagojevic, the usher will attend to
18 you. He will escort you out of the courtroom. Have a nice evening, and
19 we will meet again tomorrow morning. Thank you.
20 Anything else before we adjourn? Good. We stand adjourned until
21 tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this courtroom. Thank you.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.34 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 30th day of
24 October, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.