Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22092

1 Wednesday, 5 November 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good afternoon. Madam Registrar, could you

6 call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon, Your Honours.

8 Case Number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

10 Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you follow what I'm

11 saying in a language that you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. Yes, I

13 can follow you in the language that I understand.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please sit down.

15 Appearances, Prosecution.

16 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Ann Sutherland, assisted by

17 Denise Gustin, case manager. Good afternoon, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you all.

19 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman

21 with David Cunningham and Aleksandar Vujic.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And good afternoon to you. I understand there is a

23 follow-up on a point that was raised yesterday by Mr. Ackerman, by myself

24 actually in the first place, with regard to the statements or interviews

25 of -- with the witness.

Page 22093

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, yes. Your Honour, can I very briefly

2 run through the background to this, although I think Your Honour will

3 probably remember it.

4 Your Honour, the interviews in this form by way of

5 tape-recorded -- tape-recordings, some of which were interviews conducted

6 as -- with the interviewee as a witness, and some as a potential suspect.

7 Your Honour, these interviews began in July of 2001, all of them virtually

8 were by summons issued by the Prosecutor. Your Honour, the purpose of

9 those interviews was quite simply to see whether any of the people who had

10 intimate knowledge of the events and the institutions in that they were

11 Bosnian Serbs would be able to assist potentially as witnesses for the

12 Prosecution or at the lowest, to provide information which would be of

13 assistance to the case.

14 Now, Your Honours, the Defence were aware of this throughout. And

15 when the -- we reconvened in September of 2001 for a Status Conference,

16 the matter was raised by Mr. Ackerman, then supported, I believe, by

17 Mr. De Roux before Judge Hunt in the Status Conference. Your Honour, the

18 order then was to notify the Defence of the Rule 68 material contained in

19 those interviews, and that, I checked -- is the transcript of that Status

20 Conference at page 355.

21 Now, Your Honour, the matter was raised again in the Status

22 Conference before Your Honour on the 16th of January of 2002, I think

23 shortly before the trial began. And there, I think, Your Honour, it

24 was -- can I just check. I've made a reference for this. But -- yes,

25 Your Honour, I think this is the important point that Mr. Ackerman was

Page 22094

1 talking about yesterday. Your view to me was that it was a commitment on

2 my part that anything which needed to be disclosed under Rule 68 would.

3 And I then -- I said this: "I want to make it absolutely clear, we are

4 not going to disclose the full transcripts. We are going to disclose the

5 Rule 68 material." And your reply to that was "you made that clear last

6 time." I think you were referring to the Judge Hunt Status Conference,

7 and I think it was taken as that is how it should be. And Your Honour,

8 what then happened is we disclosed summaries. Your Honour may recall

9 this. And the matter reemerged on the 17th of October after General Talic

10 had been taken ill and there were various applications.

11 One of the problems which I accepted full responsibility for was

12 that we had delayed, and there was an explanation given, in turning over

13 the Rule 68 material in one of the interviews, and also the interviews

14 that had been conducted for the Stakic case. I provided an explanation

15 that it was an oversight, and Your Honours accepted it.

16 But Your Honours, it was quite a heated exchange that day. And

17 one of the things that was argued, apart from the fact it was suggested we

18 deliberately delayed in disclosing it, was whether or not we should be

19 turning over the whole interview as opposed to the Rule 68, and also

20 whether that should be in summary form or reproduced in the exact words

21 used.

22 And Your Honour, one of the things that was said by Mr. Ackerman

23 at page 10929 of the transcript, when asking for the actual words, was:

24 "The Prosecution has a right to redact and only to supply those parts of

25 the transcript that are Rule 68 material."

Page 22095

1 Now, Your Honour, before Your Honours issued the judgement which

2 was on the 30th of October, I had a conversation with Mr. Ackerman in the

3 course of which I asked whether he was seeking the whole transcripts as

4 opposed to just the Rule 68 material. And his response was no, it was the

5 Rule 68 material properly recorded that he wished to have. Your Honours

6 then gave a ruling on the 30th of October, and there was reference to the

7 Rutaganda decision because we at that stage wondered whether it might have

8 an affect, and the Defence said they didn't seek to argue, take it any

9 further, other than the Rule 68, and that's what you ruled that we should

10 supply. And I don't think there's any dispute now that we did supply the

11 actual transcripts.

12 Now, Your Honour, what's now happened is this, as Your Honours

13 have seen: That the Defence are now calling and proposing to call persons

14 who the Office of the Prosecutor interviewed. We, as Your Honours have

15 seen, are using those interviews to test the veracity and thereby the

16 credibility of those witnesses because, Your Honours, of course, you have

17 to carry out a truth-seeking exercise. And it's our submission that by

18 seeing what the witnesses say, and then comparing it to what they said in

19 interview, you are able to perhaps see where the truth lies. We have been

20 providing the full transcript before cross-examination begins, or

21 occasionally when it's started before a break, at the break, without

22 objection so far or further application until yesterday. And I understand

23 from Mr. Ackerman's remark yesterday that it's because I said we wouldn't

24 supply it.

25 The fact is he hasn't made any application, or the Defence

Page 22096

1 haven't, since October of last year to have the full transcripts. Now,

2 Your Honour, it's our submission there's no rule which requires us to turn

3 over the full transcripts unless it's -- there's a submission that it

4 falls within the purview of Rule 66 B. Your Honour, reciprocal disclosure

5 was invoked by Mr. Ackerman way back in this case with the only request

6 being that we turn over the Banja Luka documents. Your Honour,

7 reciprocity is a two-way thing. Now, the Defence have not turned over to

8 us statements from the witnesses they're calling. We have those short,

9 sometimes lengthened summaries. Your Honour will recall that

10 Mr. Cunningham, when pointed out that the witness could refresh his memory

11 from any statements said they were not taking statements and we had not

12 been provided with any sort of proofing documents as a result of proofing.

13 Your Honour, equally, as Your Honour heard yesterday, certainly

14 witnesses such as Mr. Radic have been turning over documents to the

15 Defence which haven't been supplied to us either.

16 So, Your Honour, if there's going to be reciprocity, it has to be

17 a two-way thing, and you can't say, well, we've never taken statements so

18 there's nothing we can give you.

19 Your Honour, in the spirit of cooperation, and I've made this

20 suggestion to Mr. Ackerman, we are prepared to turn over the full

21 transcript once the witness begins his examination-in-chief. In other

22 words, after proofing. Your Honour, we do this so that Mr. Ackerman can

23 see the full -- or Mr. Cunningham can see the full interview at a stage

24 when the witness is still in-chief, but we're anxious to avoid the -- put

25 it this way, the witness being given a chance to tailor what he wished to

Page 22097












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Page 22098

1 say in the light of what is contained in the interviews.

2 Your Honour, that's the suggestion I made. I understand from

3 Mr. Ackerman it's not acceptable, and he wants to have the interviews

4 supplied in advance of each of the witnesses coming to testify. So Your

5 Honours, what we're doing is seeking a ruling from you on that.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Two questions, Ms. Korner: Would the individual,

7 the witness, like Mr. Radic, have been at any time provided with a copy of

8 his interview with you, with the Office of the Prosecutor?


10 JUDGE AGIUS: No. That's number one.

11 MS. KORNER: All that I understand he was provided with was the

12 Rule 68, which is very lengthy. I mean, it runs to about 24 pages, I

13 think in the first interview, and something like 15 for the second. I

14 imagine -- and you know, he was, I believe from what Mr. Ackerman said

15 shown that when he was proofed.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: That's shown the document by Mr. Ackerman himself.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: The second thing: How do you reconcile what the

19 substance of your submission with the fact that the witness would be,

20 apart from you and your office, would be the only person to hopefully

21 remember what the substance of the interview was all about and what he

22 stated. So assuming that that is the case, how would it change if

23 disclosing or making available the entire statement or interview before

24 the examination-in-chief starts, how do you reconcile the two? Because

25 the witness would, I suppose, know exactly what is contained in the

Page 22099

1 statement in any case.

2 MS. KORNER: Well, he might, Your Honour, depending on if he

3 remembered what he said --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Blagojevic probably wouldn't remember, but

5 Mr. Radic would.

6 MS. KORNER: Mr. Radic clearly, from what Your Honour says, has a

7 very good recollection of what he said.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

9 MS. KORNER: In Banja Luka in 2001. Your Honour is right to say,

10 that Mr. Radic -- he informed us that he had been seen by the Defence on I

11 think two occasions before he actually spoke to us. Your Honour, the

12 situation is this: Your Honour, if witnesses are coming here to tell the

13 truth, leaving aside problems with memory, then this shouldn't cause any

14 problem. Your Honour, if they're not, and Your Honour has seen, I think,

15 perhaps clear examples of not memory failure but actual contradiction --

16 MR. ACKERMAN: That was when the Prosecution's witnesses were

17 testifying, I think. Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine so because we've only heard three of

19 your witnesses so far.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I accept entirely that Mr. Ackerman was

21 able to use the statements, all of which were provided to him, to

22 cross-examine our witnesses, and there were certainly differences. But

23 Your Honour, that's the situation, and that is why we say really, we're

24 entitled to say that we don't have to turn them over until such time as we

25 use them.

Page 22100

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I just wanted to see your point.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's the point.

3 I should add, there's one difference: Those who were interviewed

4 as suspects, and this was at a later stage when it became abundantly clear

5 that -- Your Honour, we began these interviews at a stage when the full

6 picture was not clear. Later on it became clearer, and so they were

7 treated as suspects. In those cases, each of the interviewees was given a

8 copy of the tape. So that's the difference.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So I thank you, Ms. Korner.

10 Mr. Ackerman, your remarks, please.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I requested these transcripts

12 yesterday. I believe I had requested them before on at least three

13 occasions. But in any event, I don't want to get into fighting over what

14 happened in the past. That's not important to me. What's important to me

15 is that I'm requesting them now. Rule 66(B) is fairly clear: "The

16 Prosecutor shall on request permit the Defence to inspect any books,

17 documents, photographs, and tangible objects in the Prosecutor's custody

18 or control which are material to the preparation of the Defence."

19 Now, these are documents in the control of the Prosecutor. They

20 are clearly material to the preparation of the Defence. They deal with

21 exactly the issues we're dealing with here. They deal with the crisis

22 staff. They deal with the police. They deal with the military. They

23 deal all of these municipalities that we're dealing with. Nothing could

24 be more material to the preparation of the Defence than these interviews.

25 The second problem is that now that two of them have been turned

Page 22101

1 over to us, Mr. Blagojevic and Mr. Radic, it's clear that the Prosecutor's

2 view of what is Rule 68 material is excessively conservative because we

3 have found in all these statements large swaths of material that should

4 have been turned over under Rule 68. We have not raised it because what

5 good would it do to raise it and ask you to sanction the Prosecutor.

6 There's not much you could do but order them to give us the rest of it.

7 So I think in the interest of justice and in the interest of enforcing

8 Rule 66(B) you should order this material be turned over rather

9 immediately.

10 Ms. Korner -- what Ms. Korner wants to do, and she was very

11 up-front about it, is she is hoping some of these people will not remember

12 what they said in the interviews and say something different in court so

13 she could then confront them with what they said in the interviews and

14 make them look like they're being untruthful rather than forgetful. That

15 would be helpful to the Prosecution. I understand that. But I don't

16 think it's in the spirit of or even in the language of Rule 66(B).

17 Regard to the witnesses turning over documents to us, we are

18 required and will on every occasion give the Prosecutor any documents

19 we're going to use in the defence of the case. But we don't have to turn

20 over any document that any witness might give us. That's nowhere in the

21 rules and anything else. We won't do that. And the Prosecutor won't do

22 that either. It's not usual that these witnesses give us documents anyway

23 how. There have only been a handful.

24 With regard to witness statements, we have a very limited number

25 of witness statements because we just didn't have the -- well, because we

Page 22102

1 didn't take them. But I think we even brought one today to turn over to

2 the Prosecutor. I believe we did. We have a few, a limited number of

3 witness statements. And when we have witness statements, we'll turn them

4 over. We have been spending a large part of the last couple of days

5 working on more detailed summaries, and I think we're nearly prepared to

6 turn those over if we haven't already.

7 So that's all proceeding. But I don't think there's any argument

8 that would allow the Prosecutor to not honour the requirements under

9 Rule 66(B) and turn over this material, that is material in preparation

10 for the Defence.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to add anything, Ms. Korner?

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, yes. First of all, Rule 66(B), if you

13 recall it does apply, because it doesn't talk about statements. It talks

14 about books, documents, photographs, and tangible objects. Now, Your

15 Honour, I don't particularly want to rely on that, because I know there's

16 been no real ruling on this from the Appeals Chamber. It is a question of

17 argument even within our office as to whether it applies to statements, so

18 I don't want to push that. What I do say, Your Honour, is this: It's

19 wrong if Mr. Ackerman says because they forget. Your Honour, are they

20 telling the truth in the evidence they're giving? Clearly there's a

21 difference between forgetting what happened and actually giving a

22 diametrically opposed description. Your Honour, that's all I want to say.

23 Your Honour, in our submission, we're being very open about the

24 fact we're prepared to turn it over once examination-in-chief starts. But

25 as I say, if Your Honour orders that we turn it over earlier, then we

Page 22103












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Page 22104

1 will.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: The statements or the transcript of the interviews

3 with Mr. Radic have been handed to the Defence already, now?

4 MS. KORNER: They were handed as soon as the first break -- and in

5 fact when cross-examination started.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: In their entirety.

7 MS. KORNER: In their entirety.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We would like to have a copy of them, too. Next

9 witness that will be coming Friday, has he ever been interviewed?

10 MS. KORNER: No.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So there is no urgency on our part to

12 decide the matter today.

13 MS. KORNER: No.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So we can discuss it amongst ourselves, and we'll

15 come back on it on -- sometime next week.

16 One thing I wanted to tell you, Mr. Ackerman, is this: That you

17 are right in reading Rule 67(C), that the right of reciprocal disclosure

18 or the duty of reciprocal disclosure contemplated there does not give the

19 Prosecution the right to ask to inspect all the documents that you may

20 have in your archives. But only those which you intend to use as evidence

21 in the trial. You are a hundred per cent right.

22 The only problem that exists is the problem that you yourself have

23 created because as we go along, you're only discovering from day to day

24 which documents you will be making use as evidence in the case. And until

25 last week, there were very few documents that you were aware of that you

Page 22105

1 intended to make use of. And I don't think we can approach the matter of

2 reciprocal disclosure using such yardsticks. So I don't want to prolong

3 this any further. If you have any remarks now, very concisely, I would

4 invite you to come forward with them. And the matter will rest there, and

5 we'll come with our decision later on.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I will say this: It's still on

7 my number one priority to finish getting through the documents. And

8 contrary to the way the Prosecutor is treating Rule 68, I am erring on the

9 side of being very liberal with regard to these documents. If there's a

10 chance in the world we are going to use them, I am turning them over. If

11 you look at the documents, you'll see there are documents that I've turned

12 over. It's probably unlikely that they're going to be used, but I wanted

13 to err on the side of turning them over rather than the side of holding

14 them back and saying later that I changed my mind because I've already

15 come under criticism for not getting them turned over as quickly as I

16 should have. I'm still working through them as fast as I can. We're

17 increasing the list every week. And so I think we're close to the end of

18 that process. And I think within another -- I hope before we depart for

19 Banja Luka to have that finished and have everything turned over by them,

20 that we have at the present time at least.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I just mention one thing as a matter

22 of administration about the statements, just to make it absolutely

23 clear -- the interview transcripts. There are three sets unfortunately.

24 The first set of transcripts is the English that is spoken on the tape.

25 In other words, the question in English and the interpreter's reply from

Page 22106

1 the person being interviewed.

2 However, because in particular of what happened with I think it

3 was -- not Mr. Blagojevic, but the witness before, maybe it was

4 Mr. Blagojevic, we're checking as to whether or not what was said in B/C/S

5 was correctly interpreted. Occasionally, luckily nothing very bad, there

6 are, because of the constraints of a very quick interview, there are

7 things that are said that are slightly incorrectly interpreted. So

8 there's a second English version which shows what the witness actually

9 said interpreted into English by an interpreter here. But that's not what

10 appears on the English in the actual interview. And then there's a third

11 version which is the B/C/S taken direct from the tape.

12 Your Honour, what we're going to give you, and although we gave

13 Mr. Ackerman yesterday a corrected version, it's easier to follow if you

14 see the straight English rather than with highlighted corrections as I

15 said when it came up on the screen yesterday. We'll arrange for copies to

16 be made, but they are also available which will be given to Mr. Ackerman

17 and we have them ourselves in hard copy a correction just in case the

18 B/C/S was incorrectly interpreted. So if that's satisfactory, what will

19 be handed to Your Honours is what Mr. Ackerman has got or will get, is the

20 original version, which is the English as spoken in the interview. Sorry,

21 it's a bit complicated, but that's the situation.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll sleep on this. The only thing

23 that I would suggest is this: That you're both very experienced lawyers,

24 and if you juxtapose what is contained in Rule 66(A) and Rule 66(B)

25 together with what is provided in 67(C) and not come to a short of an

Page 22107

1 amicable arrangement between you, you will be putting the Trial Chamber in

2 a position where we have to decide whether there is overall a distinction

3 between books, documents, photographs, and tangible objects in the

4 possession of either of you, and statements which are referred to

5 specifically in 66(A)(ii) putting us in a position where we will be in

6 quite a significant legal issue. And frankly, I don't know if we have

7 sufficient time to do that as we go along because these witnesses will be

8 coming over within relatively a very short time. The only advantage that

9 there is is that there's going to be this ten-day interval when the

10 Defence team will be in Bosnia, and we could possibly use that time to

11 draw up a decision. But if we could avoid having to do that, we would

12 appreciate that. That would entail, of course, some kind of an agreement

13 between you.

14 I don't know how many of the witnesses that we will be having were

15 actually interviewed by the Prosecution. If it's not a major problem,

16 maybe you can --

17 MS. KORNER: It's not a huge number, Your Honour, as far as I

18 know. But equally one of the things, and that's why it should only be

19 decided when we know that the witness is actually coming. You already

20 heard from Mr. Ackerman that somebody on the list, somebody we have

21 already interviewed, and that's Mr. Kupresanin, is not coming or may not

22 be coming.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Has lost his way.

24 MS. KORNER: Yes. We have been able to assist the Defence with

25 that. We provided him with a phone number where we are able to reach him

Page 22108

1 ourselves.

2 Your Honour, the only difficulty I mean it's not a real difficulty

3 as such is that it's not a reciprocal rule because the Rule clearly says

4 we're only entitled to inspect anything they intend to use. Well, if

5 they're going to use it, we're going to get it anyhow, so it doesn't help

6 us to inspect it. And it's not the same thing as them being able to say

7 "we want to inspect everything or anything that you've got, which we say

8 is relevant." So it's not a -- an equality of arms rule. For once, it's

9 in the favour of the Defence, as I'm sure Mr. Ackerman will be the first

10 to admit.

11 Your Honour, I think we rather do want a ruling. It is a

12 situation that's arisen in other Trial Chambers and other cases and it has

13 never been resolved.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: It's probably because it's a little bit -- not

15 odious, but I want to find a milder way of describing it.

16 Ms. Korner, there's no question, there is no doubt that Rule

17 66(A)(ii) is referring to the statements of those witnesses that the

18 Prosecution --

19 MS. KORNER: That we're going to call.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: -- That the Prosecution is going to call. And

21 there's nothing provided for statements released or given to you by other

22 persons that you decide not to bring forward. Except Rule 68, which then

23 binds you to disclose to the Defence. This is why I'm saying that -- I

24 don't know anyway, if you want a decision, we will give you a decision.

25 But I think the other Chambers that did not give a decision took the right

Page 22109












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Page 22110

1 decision.

2 MS. KORNER: Yes. This case is proving a milestone for a number

3 of things, and I don't think it has ever arisen in such an acute form as

4 this before.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I'm suggesting that if it is acute, it

6 would be acute if we're talking of practically the majority of the

7 witnesses of the Defence having already released -- been interviewed by

8 the Office of the Prosecutor, as prospective witnesses or as suspects and

9 having released a statement. That would indeed be acute. But apart from

10 Mr. Radic and Mr. Blagojevic, there are a couple of other witnesses, maybe

11 four in all, that I don't even know if they have been interviewed by the

12 Prosecution. If it's the case of maybe only three or four

13 witnesses, then I suggest that you try and find a solution modus vivendi

14 between you, or amongst you rather than put pressure and have the matter

15 decided. Let it be decided where the problem is indeed acute.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's simply this: We say is our

17 suggestion is we give it to them when examination-in-chief starts. Or

18 after proofing. Mr. Ackerman says no, we want it before proofing. That's

19 the real divide. It's not that we're refusing to turn them over.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, Mr. Cunningham next time.

21 MS. KORNER: So, you know, short of Mr. Cunningham becoming lead

22 counsel, that's where we are at the moment. Well, Your Honour, as I say,

23 in fact I don't think any of the witnesses next week are coming -- who are

24 coming --


Page 22111

1 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour can I also --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, Ms. Korner.

3 MS. KORNER: -- One further request, and that is if any of the

4 witnesses who are coming potentially Friday and next week have made

5 statements to the Defence, could we have them or could we have proper

6 summaries because we've only got the three line or the rather inadequate

7 ones at the moment.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I don't think I have anything with regard to

9 the next witness, Mr. Ackerman, not even a summary.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That is going to be my job. I thought there was

11 one for the next witness.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: There is the standard, very short, six line or seven

13 line or three line in the original document that you had submitted.

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Then I will have one for the next three

15 witnesses, if you give me your email Ms. Korner, I will have them probably

16 by the start of business tomorrow. And I'll have a copy delivered to you

17 early --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't give you mine, because if I do in open

19 session, I will start receiving a lot of --

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, in response to Mr. Cunningham, it can be

21 emailed to Ms. Gustin.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And if it's not to your satisfaction,

23 Ms. Korner, please draw my attention to it.

24 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

Page 22112

1 Let's bring in Mr. Radic to tell us whether he ever thought he

2 could be indicted here. Never crossed his mind he said yesterday, didn't

3 he?

4 We will sit according to the schedule that we adopted the day

5 before yesterday, if that is okay with you, also because I was sitting

6 right through half past 1.00 today, and I don't want to overtire myself.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I say, when I last night went

8 through the matter I need to deal with Mr. Radic, it's quite clear it's

9 going to go into Friday. Just so that Mr. Ackerman knows as well.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It was originally meant to be so.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, if the next witness turns up

13 tomorrow -- tomorrow, if he turns up tomorrow, would it be possible -- I

14 don't know, it's up to you. You are the one who can actually help us

15 decide. You know that we are sitting Friday afternoon. There is a

16 possibility, great possibility, that we could shift the sitting to Friday

17 morning. But I would take it that you would need time to proof the

18 witness. So --

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm just wondering if we shouldn't try to stop him

20 if he hasn't already left.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not up to me. I mean, to me it's pretty

22 obvious that Mr. Radic is going to be here.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Otherwise, he'll be stuck here through the weekend.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But it's not within my power to stop him. I

25 mean, it's -- he is your witness, and I think you have to tie up with

Page 22113

1 whoever is responsible to stop him coming.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I think we'll try to do that, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. In which case we would be able to

4 shift the sitting to the morning?

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, as far as I'm concerned, I just have

6 explained to somebody that a meeting that was due to be held in the

7 afternoon should go to the morning, but I'm sure we can go back --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, just let me know. Because I wouldn't like

9 to disturb --

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, as far as we're concerned, that's fine,

11 if you want to sit in the morning.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So I thank you.

13 Good afternoon to you, Mr. Radic. Welcome back.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: My apologies to you on behalf of the Trial Chamber

16 for having kept you waiting for the past three-quarters of an hour. This

17 was due to procedural matters that we needed to discuss, which you are not

18 involved, you have nothing to do with them. But they needed to be

19 discussed, and this was the only occasion and the first occasion that we

20 had to deal with them. So my apologies to you once more. I'm sure that

21 you understand.

22 Ms. Korner is going to proceed with her cross-examination of you,

23 which I anticipate will not finish neither today nor tomorrow, from the

24 looks of it. So be prepared to be here also on Friday. But if you keep

25 your answers to what is necessary, short in particular, and precise, I

Page 22114

1 think you stand a good chance of being home by the end of the week.

2 Thank you. Ms. Korner, he is in your hands.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Cross-examined by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

6 Q. Mr. Radic, I want to deal in a general form, please, with the

7 governmental authority structure in the Serbian Republic. Do you

8 understand what I mean by that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. First of all, can we deal with the structure of the SDS before

11 effectively the SDS became the government. There was the main board, and

12 underneath the main board there were municipal boards. Is that right?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And within the municipalities, certain, if I can put it that way,

15 villages also had their own boards, is that right, which reported to the

16 municipal boards?

17 A. Yes. These were organisational branches at lower levels which

18 were -- had to respond to municipal boards.

19 Q. And in its turn, the municipal boards responded to the main board?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Now, originally, there was no intervening regional structure. Is

22 that right? But that was set up effectively through 1991, from about the

23 middle of 1991, and lasted until September of 1992?

24 A. I couldn't confirm that exactly. But there was some sort of a

25 regional connection.

Page 22115

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I am receiving it.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, instead of turning it up, I turned it

3 down.

4 Q. Right. Well do you remember -- well, if we look at it this way,

5 we had first of all in the Krajina region the association of Bosnian

6 Krajina municipalities set up in April of 1991.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In September of 1991, it became -- that organisation became the

9 Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

10 A. That organisation established the assembly. It didn't become an

11 assembly, but they established the ARK Assembly.

12 Q. All right. But you, in fact, were a member, both of the -- a

13 delegate to the association of municipalities and a representative to the

14 Assembly of the Autonomous Region? That's right, isn't it? I can show

15 you the document if you like.

16 A. Could you please show me the document.

17 Q. I knew you would say that.

18 MS. KORNER: Could you have a look, please, at P61. I've got it.

19 Q. All right. Could you turn, please, Mr. Radic to -- I've lost it

20 now. Sorry.

21 Yes, it's number 97 on the list. If you can put it on the ELMO.

22 Do you see your name there?

23 A. There's 97, 114, 94, but perhaps a page is missing. I don't have

24 page number 5 before me.

25 Q. No. Could you look at number 97, which should be the third page

Page 22116

1 of the list.

2 A. Yes, I wasn't aware that there was something on the other side,

3 too. 97, here it is, yes.

4 Q. Is that you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But Mr. Radic, why can't you just tell us that you were a member,

7 that you were a delegate to the Assembly of the Autonomous Region instead

8 of looking at a document?

9 A. Well, for the simple reason that I was rarely present in ARK

10 Assembly. And later on, I will tell you why. But by virtue of their

11 positions, all presidents of municipal assemblies were also members, even

12 the vice-president, Slobodan Boskovic. They were also assembly members.

13 That's what the situation was.

14 Q. All right. I'm sure that -- Mr. Radic, all that I'm asking you is

15 not why or how, but the fact that you were a member.

16 And indeed, I can show you a number of documents. You were there

17 right at the early stages. Could you have a look, please, at P11. This

18 is the session of the 14th of May 1991. This was the meeting about the

19 statute of the autonomous region. And if you look under item 2, you made

20 various remarks about the statute. So do you agree you were there then?

21 A. That was the first session. The second session, yes. Item 2, and

22 1. Item 2, yes.

23 Q. And you made remarks that the statute proposed was too short,

24 should be a draft brought up for public debate, and all of that?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 22117

1 Q. Thank you. All right. Now, I don't actually want to get

2 sidetracked into your part for the moment. I want to deal with the

3 general principles of the power structures. So you can give the document

4 back to the usher. Thank you.

5 Now, the assembly of the autonomous region was proclaimed on the

6 16th of September 1991. And I'd be grateful if you take the date from me,

7 Mr. Radic. And do you remember that on the 21st of November at the second

8 session of the Serbian Assembly in Bosnia-Herzegovina, what was called the

9 autonomous regions, the Serb Autonomous Regions, were all verified?

10 A. If you could show me a document that I can refresh my memory, I

11 would be very grateful.

12 Q. Which for the 16th of October or --

13 A. As to whether I remember that.

14 Q. -- Or for the 21st of November?

15 A. Well, the 21st of November, when you said that there was an

16 assembly and that delegates, all delegates were present then. I'd like to

17 see that document.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I wasn't expecting to show this. Can I

19 just ask Ms. Gustin to check what the exhibit number is. I think it may

20 be 35. I'm not a hundred per cent sure.

21 P17, we think. Actually, give it to me first, and then we can

22 give it to the witness. 17, 1-7, sorry.

23 Yes, thank you. All right. We need to find -- that's the

24 English. Usher, I don't know how you're going to find the B/C/S, but

25 that's the English. He needs to have the B/C/S. Where is the B/C/S? All

Page 22118

1 right. Usher, can you put that on the ELMO, and we'll find the... All

2 right, we'll see if we can find the...

3 MR. ACKERMAN: It's disclosure 2249 if that helps in any way.

4 MS. KORNER: I need the B/C/S.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I have it here on the screen. If the system

6 worked, I could display it.

7 MS. KORNER: What page in the B/C/S? That's it, I think. Page 31

8 in the B/C/S version, I think. Yes.

9 Q. Can you, Mr. Radic, look at that, please, and just confirm.

10 A. Could I ask someone to go and fetch my glasses because they're in

11 my coat pocket in the waiting room. I have two pairs of glasses there.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, usher, I don't know how we should go back this.

13 Do you have any other personal belongings there, Mr. Radic?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose the best thing would be to have usher

16 escort you, and you bring whatever you need from that room. Okay.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just two pairs of glasses.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't know whether Your Honour wants

19 to explain to Mr. Radic that if we go on like this, he won't be finishing

20 on Friday.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I won't be explaining anything to him. I'm going to

22 leave him and you as free as a bird.

23 MS. KORNER: And you think you're doing me a favour?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: But Ms. Korner, I mean, we are all experienced. So

25 I know when to step in, and I know when to stay out.

Page 22119

1 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I'm going to try in the hopes that

2 we can...

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's wait for Judge Taya who will be with us in a

4 minute.

5 So, in the meantime, Mr. Radic can have a look at the document.

6 Yes, Ms. Korner, you can proceed.

7 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, having seen that, do you accept that on the 21st

9 of November at the second session of the Serbian Republic Assembly, the

10 Serbian Autonomous Regions were verified?

11 A. I got this document a moment ago. I tried to find out whether I

12 was present at this session. My name is not on the list. I should read

13 the whole document. But if that's what the document says, then the

14 regions must have been verified because from this document I cannot see

15 that I was present at this session, nor that I took part in the

16 discussion. I'm trying to remember, but...

17 Q. No, all right. Mr. Radic, I think if we can try and set some

18 ground rules for this to prevent this becoming even more protracted.

19 First of all, can you take it that if I put to you something happened on a

20 date that exists, unless I particularly want to put it to you, you can

21 take it from me because if I'm wrong Mr. Ackerman and Their Honours will

22 correct me. Do you understand that? Otherwise, if I have to show you a

23 document every time, we will be here forever.

24 Now, the second thing is this: I wasn't asking you whether you

25 were present at the meeting. I was asking you if you were aware or if you

Page 22120

1 agreed with me that on the 21st of November, the Serbian Autonomous

2 Regions were verified. Now, whether you were present at the meeting or

3 not, you knew that, didn't you?

4 A. Well, let's say I did know that. Obviously, if that's what the

5 document says, that they were verified, then that must have been the case.

6 Q. And until the constitution was changed in September 1992 when the

7 autonomous regions were abolished, they were part of the governmental

8 structure, weren't they?

9 A. Who was part of the governmental structure?

10 Q. The regions. And if you don't understand what I mean, I'll put it

11 differently. The structure of the authorities in the Serbian Republic of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina was as follows: At the top was the republican-level

13 government headed by Karadzic. Do you agree with that?

14 A. If that's what it says, yes. Because I mean, really I cannot say

15 whether Karadzic was the president of the government because elected

16 members of the presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina were Mr. Koljevic and

17 Mrs. Plavsic. As to what Karadzic was, what position he had, I couldn't

18 tell you.

19 Q. Is that really what you're telling this Court, that you're unable

20 to tell us what position Karadzic held between 1991 November and 1992?

21 A. He was the president of the SDS. Now, what followed from that, I

22 really couldn't tell you. There should be a document demonstrating what

23 exactly his position was during the period that you're now discussing.

24 Q. I'm not asking you to look at a document and I'm not going to show

25 you a document, Mr. Radic. I'm asking you of your own personal knowledge

Page 22121

1 in the position that you held during that period, are you telling us you

2 had no idea what position Mr. Karadzic held?

3 A. I can only say one thing. The president of the government, as far

4 as I can recall, was Dr. Branko Dzeric at the time. As to what position

5 Mr. Karadzic had and when it was that the presidency was created, the

6 presidency with Mr. Karadzic as the presiding of that body whose members

7 were also Mr. Koljevic and Mrs. Plavsic, that I couldn't tell you because

8 I don't remember.

9 Q. All right. I'm not going to pursue that, Mr. Radic. But I want

10 to go back to the structure. Do you agree whoever, whether it was

11 Koljevic, Plavsic, Karadzic, whoever, that was the republican-level

12 government?

13 A. At the beginning, it is possible that that was the case. However,

14 shortly after that, Mr. Dzeric was elected president of the government.

15 It is true that he did not hold this position for a very long time. But

16 he was the president of the government for a while.

17 Q. Yes. Forgetting whether it was -- I'll include Dzeric in there.

18 Was there a government at the republic level based in Sarajevo-Pale?

19 A. They could not be based in Sarajevo, only at Pale because at the

20 time when Serbian deputies left the assembly, they went to Pale, and it

21 was only then and there that the government was established.

22 Q. All right. Mr. Radic, I'm trying very briefly to establish what

23 the position was about the governmental structures. If you argue about

24 whether it was Pale or Sarajevo, it will take even longer. I'm asking you

25 how the governmental structures worked. So we could go through that,

Page 22122

1 please.

2 Now, next, that was the head, if you like, of the SDS which then

3 became the government of the Serbian Republic. Under that structure, for

4 the period between November 1991 and September 1992, was there the

5 regional authority, particularly in what was then the Autonomous Region of

6 Krajina?

7 A. I really cannot tell you the exact date when the assembly of the

8 ARK was established, when the government was established, and when

9 Mr. Erceg was elected Prime Minister or became Prime Minister-elect. He

10 later on made a proposal to the members of the government of the region.

11 Unfortunately I could not tell you the composition of that government

12 because I was not its member nor was I the member of the government at

13 Pale. I would really like to help you, but I simply don't know. I'm sure

14 you have a list of the members of the government both at the regional and

15 republican level.

16 Q. Mr. Radic, I'm not interested in who formed these levels of

17 government. Can I make that absolutely clear. I am interested in the

18 structures. Now, do you know what I mean?

19 A. What exactly do you mean when you say "the structure"? Are you

20 referring to the various departments that existed as part of the

21 government? Is that the structure that you have in mind?

22 Q. I'm talking about the levels of authorities within the government

23 of the Serbian Republic. Now, can we go on from there. The regional

24 authorities, forget about the dates if you say you don't know what they

25 were, existed during the that this case is about. Do you accept that?

Page 22123

1 A. Most probably, yes. But please do not tie me to any particular

2 date. There were governments of both Republika Srpska and the region.

3 Q. All right. The regional authorities got their instructions - is

4 this right - and we will look at what you said about this in interview in

5 a moment. But is this right: They got their instructions from the

6 authorities in Pale?

7 A. Surely they must have obeyed the instructions that were coming

8 from the republican government. That's for sure.

9 Q. And they passed on those instructions to the municipal level of

10 authorities?

11 A. Well, yes, they did.

12 Q. The municipal would report back sometimes to the regional,

13 sometimes to the government in Pale. Would you agree with that?

14 A. Well, you see, that relationship, the relationship between the

15 regional government and municipal governments, like the relationship

16 between the municipal government and the republican government, at least

17 as far as Banja Luka is concerned, did not function ideally, as perfectly

18 as one would assume.

19 Q. I accept that entirely, Mr. Radic. I accept that there were no

20 rigid chains of command and that things did not always happen in the same

21 way in each municipality. But in general terms, is what I have said to

22 you correct?

23 A. It really depends on the municipality in question and what they

24 expected from the regional government and the government of Republika

25 Srpska. I once said that the state did not function during this initial

Page 22124

1 period of one year the way it should have functioned. At least, the way

2 it had been envisaged. And this concerns in particular the regional

3 government.

4 Q. Yes. Can I suggest to you that one of the reasons for having a

5 regional level of government in place, particularly during this period,

6 was that there were difficulties in communication between municipalities

7 in the Krajina and Pale?

8 A. I think that the establishment of the regional -- I mean, of the

9 ARK, and later the government and the assembly, was the consequence of a

10 desire to have a greater cooperation amongst these municipalities, Banja

11 Luka, Dubica, Grahovo, Gradiska, and some others. That was the first

12 requirement that had been set out. Later, links were established between

13 regional bodies and bodies at the level of the republic.

14 Q. All right. If I use the word "coordinating function," would you

15 agree with that? That was the regional bodies' original function?

16 A. Yes, that should have been the case. It should have had the

17 coordinating function. However, many municipalities did not accept this

18 coordinating function. I believe I have already mentioned some of them

19 earlier on.

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Because you see, some of these municipalities expected a certain

22 assistance from the level of the region. But I said that regional bodies

23 did not have enough means to offer any material assistance whatsoever, so

24 this coordinating function was not very well received.

25 Q. I think the simplest thing, Mr. Radic, would be to go through with

Page 22125

1 you what you said about this in the interview.

2 MS. KORNER: I'm going to ask if we have up on the screen, please,

3 page 27 of the first interview.

4 Q. You'll be able to see it in your own language, Mr. Radic, and

5 we'll look at the English translation.

6 A. I can hardly read --

7 Q. All right. Yes.

8 A. Can we enlarge it a little bit?

9 Q. We can't, unfortunately, Mr. Radic. We'll give you the B/C/S.

10 MS. KORNER: We think it's this page. Page 28.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 MS. KORNER: Sorry.

13 Q. This was -- I want you to find the part, Mr. Radic, if you can,

14 the question was put to you: "Mr. Brdjanin was a very powerful man, was

15 he not?" And you said this: "I wanted to draw your attention to the fact

16 that power did not come from the crisis staff, which only lasted a brief

17 period. Many of the decisions he made I simply rejected. The power of

18 these people came from higher authorities, from their authorities as

19 deputies, as minister, and things like that."

20 A. Which page, please?

21 Q. All right, Mr. Radic --

22 A. I don't know what page you're referring to.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, although it's a bit early, I'm going to

24 sort out for the nth time the problem of these transcripts. Would Your

25 Honour care to rise now while I do that because the next few question I

Page 22126

1 have all relate to this.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Any problem with that, Mr. Ackerman? We will rise

3 now have a break of 20 minutes starting from now. And please try to be

4 punctual so we don't waste or lose time.

5 --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.


8 Q. Mr. Radic, I'd like you now --

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I hope this will never happen again

10 after today, it probably will, but we just have too many versions.

11 Q. -- To look at, please, page 24 for us in the English, and we've

12 highlighted the -- what we think is the B/C/S part of it. So if we could

13 have page 24 up on the screen for everyone.

14 Now, Mr. Radic, you were actually being asked about Mr. Brdjanin.

15 Do you see the question: "Mr. Brdjanin was a very powerful man." Do you

16 see that?

17 A. On the screen or in the text in front of me?

18 Q. In the text. Don't worry about the screen, just look at the text.

19 It should have been highlighted for you.

20 A. It's highlighted in yellow. It says that the power of those

21 people --

22 Q. Okay. All right. Yes. All right. I'm sorry, Mr. Radic, yes,

23 read that part out that's been highlighted.

24 A. "The power of those people was a result of their higher functions,

25 their functions as deputies, as ministers," and I won't go on to list

Page 22127

1 everything else. That was my answer.

2 Q. Right.

3 A. If you're referring to what has been highlighted.

4 Q. Yes, I am. And so what you were saying there was that the

5 authority of Mr. Brdjanin and others in the regional crisis staff came

6 from their positions as deputies and ministers. Is that right?

7 A. Yes, the authority of Mr. Brdjanin, the previous question was that

8 it was true to say that Mr. Brdjanin was a very powerful man. I said that

9 his authority wasn't a result of him being the president of the crisis

10 staff, it was a result of him of him having a role of a minister, et

11 cetera, and that is where he derived this authority from.

12 Q. During the period of the crisis staff, the regional crisis staff,

13 he was a deputy to the assembly, but he became a minister in September of

14 1992. Do you remember that?

15 A. I don't remember when he became a minister, but I know that he was

16 the deputy.

17 Q. All right.

18 A. And later, he was the vice-president in the government.

19 Q. All right. Now, I want to look at some other things that you told

20 us about the relationship between the regional crisis staff or government

21 and the republic level.

22 Could you go now, please -- could you be given, please, what is

23 the B/C/S equivalent of, I hope, page 40 in the English version. And this

24 is from the part where you were being asked at this stage, Mr. Radic,

25 about the dismissals.

Page 22128

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you remember that? And it was put to you that the order of the

3 crisis staff led to the dismissals, and I'll come back to the actual

4 mechanics later. But you said this: "The balancing instructions came

5 from Pale, the balancing of personnel which was then supposed to be

6 implemented on the field. And it was a reflection on what was happening

7 in the other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And when it came from the

8 higher authority here, then that's what the implementation began."

9 You were asked how you knew about that, that it came from Pale,

10 and you said there is a document. Now, do you agree that's what you said

11 about the euphemism, as you put it, of balancing? That's right, isn't it,

12 Mr. Radic?

13 A. Yes, absolutely.

14 Q. Can I just ask you while we're on this page, what did you mean by

15 your answer "it was seen by the person who brought it to the crisis staff

16 to be adopted"? Do you mean the person who brought it to the regional

17 crisis staff had seen the original instructions from Pale?

18 A. I assume so.

19 Q. Yes, but this is what you were telling us. Who was the person who

20 told you that the instructions came from Pale?

21 A. I can't remember who told me about this. I know that I was told

22 that differentiation of staff should be implemented and that this should

23 be implemented throughout Republika Srpska, not just in Republika Srpska

24 but also in Sarajevo, in Zagreb, et cetera. And as a result, it was

25 necessary to implement this in our area, too. There must have been a

Page 22129

1 document because I don't think that someone in the crisis staff would have

2 said let's differentiate the staff. I don't think he would have done this

3 on his own initiative. And this is the euphemism I have referred to.

4 Q. Yes, I understand that. If you just understand the exercise,

5 Mr. Radic, I'm just taking you through the various aspects of the

6 instructions that arrived.

7 All right. If you go -- if we can just look at the next page, I

8 think you develop that a little bit - page 41. You were telling us,

9 Mr. Radic, that you were going to -- you were going to refuse to implement

10 this in Banja Luka, and it was put to you, you told us, that you were

11 actually present at this meeting because you argued against this

12 conclusion. And is that -- this was the meeting of the regional crisis

13 staff, so that's one of the ones you attended, was it?

14 A. I said that I was opposed to this? You said, JK, you said you

15 were at this meeting because you were opposed to that decision. Yes. Did

16 you see that order from Pale? I said I didn't. But whenever it was

17 necessary to implement something, instructions would arrive from Pale, and

18 it had to be implemented.

19 Q. Right.

20 A. Then the question was did Brdjanin do this or Kupresanin? I said

21 I didn't want to guess. But one of them who had connections with Pale did

22 this, one of them who was a deputy or a minister up there.

23 Q. Right. All right. Thank you.

24 First of all, Mr. Radic, this meeting where this order from Pale

25 was discussed was one at which you were present. Is that right?

Page 22130

1 A. I don't know whether it's true to say that I attended the meeting

2 or that I just received -- or that I had just received the document, but I

3 didn't agree with this.

4 Q. But you told us there that you argued against it. So it's not a

5 difficult question, Mr. Radic. Can we take it from that that you must

6 have been present at this meeting of the regional crisis staff where this

7 order for levelling or standardisation or whatever it was called came from

8 Pale?

9 A. I wouldn't say that I had to be there, but I don't exclude that

10 possibility. I don't exclude that possibility, you know.

11 Q. All right. And do you now recall, and I'm asking you to recall

12 the actual event, somebody coming and saying: "This is what they have

13 ordered from above, and this is how it will be implemented"?

14 A. That's how it must have been. Someone received an order, and

15 that's what had to be done. Because that is how they proceeded in all the

16 municipalities of Republika Srpska.

17 Q. All right.

18 A. And that is the procedure in the part that is now called the BH

19 Federation.

20 Q. Yes. Well, as I said yesterday, for the moment, we'd just like

21 you to concentrate on what happened in the Republika Srpska.

22 All right. Could you now go, please, with luck, I hope, or can

23 you be given page -- the equivalent of our page 57. I'd like to start

24 with page 57, please.

25 A. This is 58.

Page 22131

1 Q. Yes, not the English. It's the page before the part that was

2 highlighted.

3 Can you find, again, the series of questions where you were being

4 asked again about Mr. Brdjanin.

5 A. Are you saying that Mr. Brdjanin had support in Pale? Is that

6 what you're referring to?

7 Q. Yes, that's the part I want to ask you about. You gave a

8 description of him, much as you've given to this Court, I think. But that

9 you said here that when he needed support for something, he would just go

10 up there and demand support for whatever. And you were asked:

11 "Go where and demand support?" And you said: "Go to Pale and demand

12 support for certain issues, and that went on until they were sick of him

13 and then they kicked him out." Then you were asked about the issues that

14 he was getting support and then you went on to tell us about "balancing

15 of personnel was his idea or came from someone in Pale." I'm going to

16 suggest to you from other documents that I will show you, Mr. Radic, that

17 Mr. Brdjanin was very much the architect of this idea.

18 However, this is what you said: "And then you went on tell us

19 that" -- or rather, this was put to you again that Mr. Brdjanin retained

20 the support of Pale. Then you dealt with this binding order, this is the

21 next page for us, that Karadzic issued... And then this is the part I

22 want to ask you about.

23 You were dealing or it was put to you that he had the authority,

24 didn't he, through his position in the Serb Assembly and through his

25 position as the president of the crisis staff to do these things. And

Page 22132

1 your reply was this: "Of course we were at a lower level for them, the

2 municipal level, and that's how they acted. You will see I don't know who

3 of the deputies you summoned, but you'll see even today they think that

4 they are something better than others because they were elected the one

5 time in 1990 and they continued to rule until 1996. And if they have a

6 masterful leader like Krajisnik, the deputies, he was their president."

7 And you say -- you said this: "Again, I repeat, you are just wasting your

8 time with the crisis staff. Everything was planned from up above." Then

9 it was put to you that although it was planned by Krajisnik and Karadzic

10 and the rest of them, it was put into operation through the medium of the

11 regional crisis staff, and you said: "No, very little to a small degree.

12 You showed me the decisions made, give me the feedback, and I can show you

13 the documents which I presided over and you will see what I refused and

14 rejected."

15 Now, can we break that down, please, Mr. Radic. First of all,

16 that last part, you were saying that you in your municipality effectively

17 went your own way. Is that right? You weren't following the instructions

18 of the regional crisis staff?

19 A. Which last part are you referring to? You've read out a lot.

20 First of all you said that you're claiming that Mr. Brdjanin had a lot of

21 support in Pale. Shall we deal with that first of all. That has to do

22 with a decision on prohibiting the exchange of flats and houses. That's

23 on page 58. Shall we deal with this first of all.

24 Q. No, no. I'm sorry. You were talking about -- on this part,

25 nothing to do with the airport and flights. I hope you were looking at

Page 22133

1 the same part that we were. You were dealing here with the balancing of

2 personnel and Mr. Brdjanin going to Pale. Did you see that?

3 A. He was supported in Pale. But you claim that Mr. Brdjanin was

4 supported in Pale, that's on page 59. Is that the part you were referring

5 to?

6 Q. Yes, I hope.

7 A. I said yes, absolutely. But on this occasion, Karadzic issued a

8 decree law. Is that what you're referring to?

9 Q. No, no.

10 A. Shall we deal with that issue first of all?

11 Q. No, I want to deal with first of all your assertion that you in

12 Banja Luka did not implement the decisions of the regional crisis staff.

13 You went your own way. That's what you were telling us, wasn't it?

14 A. Is that on page 59?

15 Q. Yes, I hope. That's what I just read out, and I hoped you were

16 following.

17 A. You read out a lot, so I can't answer your question immediately.

18 But first you said "you claim Mr. Brdjanin is supported in Pale." That

19 had to do with the prohibition on exchanging flats and houses. Having

20 Serbs from the federation and non-Serbs in Banja Luka exchange houses and

21 flats. I said that I was opposed to that, and I asked for Mr. Karadzic to

22 comment on this. Karadzic had issued a decree law and said that this had

23 to be done, that such exchanges had to be implemented, and this is what I

24 refused to do first of all.

25 And then we have JK, never asked anyone for anything because he

Page 22134

1 had authority as a member --

2 Q. No, I'm sorry. That's right. Don't bother about reading out the

3 questions. I've read it out. You've read it. I just want to concentrate

4 and summarise what you're saying there. Do you understand that, Mr.

5 Radic?

6 You were saying two things, or three things really. First, as you

7 told us, the question of the housing and Karadzic's binding order. And

8 you dealt with that. Second, you were saying that the municipal level was

9 at a lower level, and that the deputies, that is to say people like

10 Krajisnik and whatever who were strong, were sending out orders -- sorry,

11 were planning things at their level. That's what you were saying there.

12 Is that right?

13 A. That's something else. So forget about what I said above about

14 the decree law issued by Mr. Karadzic, and we'll refer to the part which

15 starts with "we were a lower municipal level for them, and that is how

16 they behaved." Is that what you're asking me about now?

17 Q. Exactly. But I don't need you to read it all out, Mr. Radic.

18 Everybody's read it. I'm just asking you if that's what you were saying

19 in terms. In other words, if it was people at the level of deputies, like

20 Krajisnik, like Karadzic, and like Mr. Brdjanin, who were planning these

21 matters which then were given as orders to the municipal levels?

22 A. What I wanted to say is quite clear in the text. I said that the

23 deputies thought that they were more important than people at the

24 municipal level, and that is how they behaved. I said if they had such a

25 masterful leader such as Krajisnik, it resulted from all of this. I never

Page 22135

1 mentioned Karadzic as someone who participated in this.

2 Q. All right. Now, finally, were you saying on this page, and then

3 we can move on, that you were not in your municipality, in Banja Luka,

4 carrying out the orders of the regional crisis staff? Is that what you

5 were saying there?

6 A. All of the ones that weren't in accordance with the law and the

7 rules, my secretary would forward them to me and said this can't be

8 implemented. And these things weren't implemented. There were certain

9 illogical matters, too. For example, when a woman from Visoko contacted

10 me, she had a house there which she wanted exchanged and there was a

11 Bosniak who wanted to do that. But there were rules, and Karadzic sorted

12 this out.

13 Q. You would carry out anything that you thought was in accordance

14 with the law. Do you mean by that the law of the Serbian Republic of

15 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

16 A. Well, let me tell you something. Many laws, in addition to the

17 laws of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I will apply many of

18 the laws from the SFRJ period. These laws were still applied. They had

19 not been abolished.

20 Q. All right. So you applied the old laws as well as the laws that

21 were passed by the Serbian Republic. Is that the situation?

22 A. The laws adopted by the National Assembly of Republika Srpska,

23 yes.

24 Q. All right. Can we look, please, then at one more aspect of life

25 in Banja Luka that I think was affected by --

Page 22136

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm just trying to find, because of the

2 difference in page numbers...

3 Yes, can we go, please, to -- can you be shown, and we have up on

4 the screen I think page 68. And we'll give you the -- yes. The B/C/S

5 version.

6 I'm sorry, Mr. Radic, we haven't found it yet. Can you give it

7 back to us, please. Yes, thank you. It's page 69.

8 Q. Now, you were being asked there: "What was the purpose as you

9 understand it of destroying mosques?" And you said: "The same as the

10 destruction of orthodox churches, to destroy the faith so that people

11 wouldn't go back. Destroy the spiritual basis, and they won't be coming

12 back. It's crazy." Do you remember saying that?

13 A. Let me just find it.

14 Q. Certainly.

15 A. Yes, I'd be grateful if you told me it was under number 22. If

16 you told me it was under number 2, I would have found it more easily.

17 What's the purpose? Because it's the same reason for which

18 orthodox churches are destroyed, and the purpose was to prevent people

19 from returning. Yes, that's what I said. And finally at the end, I said:

20 "It's madness."

21 Q. Right. Now you went on, and you can read it to yourself, to

22 explain that you were being blamed by the Serbs because you tried to

23 prevent the mosques being destroyed.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So it was Serb policy to blow up mosques, and you were trying to

Page 22137

1 prevent it. Is that what you're -- what you were saying there and what

2 you still say now?

3 A. You won't find any such explicitly defined policies, and I didn't

4 find them anywhere. But this went without saying because all orthodox

5 churches had previously been destroyed in Croatia, all of them. And that

6 was the answer. Destroying all the mosques in the territory of the

7 Republic of Serbia. These policies were never stated in such an explicit

8 manner.

9 Q. But according to you, you knew this was wrong.

10 A. Absolutely. That's why I was opposed to it, and that's why

11 Banja Luka came last, defended itself until 1993. I have to inform this

12 Trial Chamber that up until that time -- by that time, all the mosques had

13 been destroyed in the territory of Republika Srpska. Banja Luka came last

14 unfortunately.

15 Q. That's right. The actual destruction came in 1993, although

16 attacks had been made on the mosques in 1992. That's right, isn't it?

17 A. No, not in Banja Luka. But other towns in Republika Srpska, yes.

18 Q. Sorry. You misunderstand me. I don't mean that they were

19 destroyed, but there had been attempts to damage already in 1992 the

20 mosques in Banja Luka. That's right, isn't it?

21 A. Yes, but they failed.

22 Q. All right. Now, you went on -- I want you to read on, please, to

23 yourself about what else you said in relation to these --

24 A. About what?

25 Q. It's all right. I'm sorry.

Page 22138

1 [The Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]


3 Q. All right. Could you just read on to yourself and come to the

4 part where you said -- I asked you who was talking to you about blowing up

5 mosques. And you said: "Everybody, even those in highest authority.

6 They were explaining. They always said `Radic, Banja Luka's fine. You're

7 doing well. The only problem is you still have mosques there.'" And you

8 talked about taking the Russian Ambassador to look at the mosque.

9 Can you read on. You were asked: "Who do you mean by people

10 higher up?" And you said: "They all said it. Don't ask me for names.

11 From the highest authority all the way down to the lowest." You were

12 asked: "Does it include Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik?" And your reply:

13 "They are wise enough not to say it out loud, but they had their

14 emissaries who they sent here all the time, and one of them was especially

15 persistent." You were asked: "Who was that?" And you eventually -- you

16 began by saying: "Ask the CSB and the judges. They know everything."

17 You were asked again to tell us who it was who had been sent. And did you

18 then say: "Ostojic, Velibor Ostojic, was on my back all the time." You

19 were asked about him. And the interview continued. He said -- I'm sorry,

20 you said that he held a high position, that he was a deputy, and that he

21 was effectively -- you were asked: "And whose back was he on?" And you

22 said: "Mostly mine." You were questioned: "Because of your stance

23 against the destruction of the mosques. Correct"? Not only that I kept

24 defying them, and you dealt with the coup, or the attempted coup in 1993.

25 And then the -- Mr. Ostojic coming down to Banja Luka.

Page 22139

1 Now, was all of that true?

2 A. More or less, yes.

3 Q. In what sense more or less? Is there anything you want to change?

4 A. I don't think that he came to issue directives. But there were

5 talks about that. He said: "You're doing fine. Everybody's okay in

6 Banja Luka, it's just that the mosques are still standing." There were

7 others as well who kept coming. Those who had done the job before, they

8 were the ones who constantly suggested to us and kept telling us that this

9 had to be done. Of course, this was done without the knowledge of the

10 municipal government, which is what I already described at the time it

11 happened, that it was sheer madness which would eventually cost the

12 Serbian People very much.

13 Q. All right. It's taken -- I'm sorry it has taken such a long time

14 to go through this, Mr. Radic, because of the difficulties with the

15 interview. But is this the position generally: That orders, planning and

16 orders, originated in Pale?

17 A. I don't know what planning you're talking about. The plan to

18 destroy places of worship or...?

19 Q. No, generally the policies to be carried out within the

20 territories of what was proclaimed to be the Serbian Republic of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. Well, the policy had to start from the top. It is at the top that

23 the general principles are defined and then transmitted down the chain of

24 command. This is how it was done within the federation and elsewhere

25 during the war. This is not something new.

Page 22140

1 Q. No. Again, I'm not suggesting that it was any different anywhere

2 else, but I just want to deal with what happened in the Serbian Republic.

3 It was transmitted down the chain of command. That chain of command

4 included the regional, the municipal, and then the local communes. Is

5 that right?

6 A. Not really. It was not exactly a rule. The regional level would

7 sometimes be skipped, and then we would receive it directly here at the

8 municipal level. And then when they were not satisfied with the work of

9 individual municipalities and the implementation of individual decisions,

10 then -- I mean, I don't think that the chain was always respected, that it

11 was the top and then us that they suggested directly to us that something

12 needed to be done.

13 Q. No. I'm sorry did you say -- it didn't come out in the

14 interpretation, but I think you mentioned something about the regional.

15 You said the regional level would be sometimes skipped. And then we would

16 receive it directly. And then when they were not satisfied with the work

17 of individual municipalities and the implementation of individual

18 decisions, is that when you're saying the regional level would be brought

19 in?

20 A. I said sometimes that level was skipped, bypassed. When something

21 needed to be implemented, something that the regional level could not

22 implement, then it went directly to the municipal assemblies. And they

23 were then told to do what they were required to do.

24 Q. All right. And during this period, and particularly in the period

25 between May and the -- beginning of May and the end of June before the

Page 22141

1 corridor was opened, was communication more often effected, that is,

2 reporting what was happening and instructions from Pale, through the

3 regional level?

4 A. The period you're discussing, May, the 26th of June when the

5 corridor was, as we say, broken through, when it was liberated, I think

6 that at that time, the chain was not functioning because everything was

7 focussed on the corridor which had the vital importance for us because it

8 was our link with the outside world.

9 Q. I understand that. So at that stage, that's what I'm asking you,

10 because you were there. At that stage, was the regional level more

11 important because of the difficulties of, as it were, the municipal and

12 Pale communicating directly?

13 A. No, I don't think that they had any particular role to play at

14 that period -- at the time. Everything was -- nothing was as important as

15 the military and the army. I don't think that that was transmitted

16 directly to us because the municipalities were much more important in this

17 regard. They were logistical bases, and they had to provide, they had to

18 secure the equipment and clothes to the soldiers who were deployed in the

19 battlefield. So I don't think that they had any major influence during

20 that period of time.

21 Q. That's right. But one of the major functions, I agree, was the

22 coordination of providing logistical support to the military units that

23 were active in the area.

24 A. Is this a question or an allegation? I don't understand.

25 Q. No, I'm asking you. That was one of the important functions,

Page 22142

1 wasn't it, of the regional level of authorities, and why Talic, as you

2 told us, was -- attended the meetings, or some of them, of the crisis

3 staff?

4 A. As far as I know, Talic attended only one session, and then he

5 transferred to Colonel Vojinovic, who was the city command at the time.

6 He had just arrived from Rijeka. He had withdrawn together with the

7 Yugoslav People's Army from there, and he was interested with the task of

8 attending the meetings of the crisis staff.

9 Q. And how do you know that, Mr. Radic?

10 A. Well, it was not difficult to know that because Mr. Talic at the

11 time was mostly absent from Banja Luka. He was at his command post from

12 where he was preparing his soldiers for the breakthrough from Banja Luka.

13 And he didn't have time for the crisis staff. And that is why he

14 entrusted Colonel Vojinovic with this particular task. Colonel Vojinovic

15 will confirm this unless he has already done so to your associates in

16 Banja Luka.

17 Q. All right. I want then to move to a different subject, please,

18 although we may come back to this later on.

19 You told us when you started giving your evidence that

20 Mr. Blagojevic -- I'm sorry, can I just -- this was on the first day that

21 you gave evidence.

22 A. Here?

23 Q. Yes, here. You said, when you were asked how many times you

24 attended the crisis staff meetings, you said: "A few. Mr. Blagojevic,

25 who was the secretary, says that I attended once or maybe twice, but I

Page 22143

1 would like to see either documents or minutes that would show exactly how

2 many times I attended." And that's page 30 of the LiveNote of the 3rd of

3 November.

4 How do you know that Mr. Blagojevic said that you attended once or

5 twice?

6 A. Well, Madam, because I asked him. He was the only person who was

7 able to give such an explanation to me since he was the secretary. He was

8 the only one who could tell me how many times I attended the meetings. He

9 must have had some kind of minutes or notes to that effect.

10 Q. Yes, sorry. Do you mean that you asked him that before you came

11 here? Or you heard what he said in evidence to this Court?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Well, which?

14 A. Before he arrived here, before he came here, he told me that as

15 far as he could remember, I had attended once or twice. And now I should

16 really like to know what he testified before this Tribunal, if this is not

17 a secret, of course.

18 Q. I'm sure we'll be able to discover later, but Mr. Radic, what I'm

19 interested in is how was he able to tell you that you'd only attended once

20 or twice?

21 A. Either out of his recollection or on the basis of documents. He

22 said that I know that you did not attend more than once or twice. And

23 Colonel Vojinovic confirmed that. I mean, something to that effect who,

24 by virtue of his function, had to be present more often.

25 Q. All right. So you spoke to Colonel Vojinovic as well, did you?

Page 22144

1 A. I would truly like to know whether either of them can remember how

2 many times attended because as far as I know I attended once or twice,

3 meetings of the crisis staff. After that, I no longer attended them.

4 Q. Mr. Radic, I want simply to know to whom you have spoken about

5 this. You have spoken to Mr. Blagojevic. Have you also spoken to Colonel

6 Vojinovic?

7 A. Vojinovic. Yes, I did speak with Colonel Vojinovic, and he said

8 that he did not remember me having attended more than once or twice.

9 Q. Did you discuss this question with any other persons in Banja Luka

10 before you came to testify?

11 A. No. These are the two persons that must have known how many times

12 I attended such meetings. One, because he had to attend by virtue of his

13 function. He was from the command. And the other, who had to know

14 because he was the secretary.

15 Q. All right. And did you ask Mr. Blagojevic when he said "once or

16 twice" whether he was telling you that from his memory or from documents?

17 A. Both. Both, because he was present and also because I'm sure he

18 has documents to that effect, if he was the secretary of the crisis staff.

19 Q. No. I want to know -- I don't want you to guess. Did he tell you

20 that he was able to say that from documents?

21 A. No. From his memory.

22 Q. Right.

23 A. And I say whether he had documents, I don't know.

24 Q. I'm sorry. You're telling us - I don't want to spend too long on

25 this - that Mr. Blagojevic said to you you attended once or twice.

Page 22145

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You then asked him "how do you know that? Is it from your memory

3 or from documents?" And he replied to you: "From his memory."

4 A. His memory.

5 Q. Didn't you ask him to check the documents?

6 A. Well, that's his business. I mean, if he has the documents, let

7 him check. How would I know if he has the documents or not?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move on, Ms. Korner.

9 MS. KORNER: I agree.

10 Q. All right. Mr. Radic, I want to ask you now, please, about your

11 relationship with, first of all, Dr. Vukic. Did you work closely with

12 him?

13 A. Dr. Vukic was the president of the municipal SDS, the municipal

14 board of SDS. And of course, he had instructions coming from higher party

15 levels, and obviously I had to cooperate with him in relation to

16 party-related matters.

17 Q. Did you see him on a social level?

18 A. I don't know what exactly you have in mind. What kind of social

19 level.

20 Q. Did you have social dinner with him or drink with him in bars or

21 hotels apart from work?

22 A. Well, as for bars or hotels, during that period of time we didn't

23 have much of that. But it is true that I did go out with him from time to

24 time, and I must have had a drink or two with him.

25 Q. Right. What about Mr. Kupresanin?

Page 22146

1 A. Mr. Kupresanin was a deputy.

2 Q. Yes. Did you see him on a regular basis?

3 A. Not exactly on a regular basis. And I didn't meet with him very

4 often, to be clear.

5 Q. All right. Did you deal with him on a work level?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Never?

8 A. Well, almost never. There's a specific reason for that. Because

9 the gentleman in question was also involved with the TV and all kinds of

10 things that I had nothing to do with. I also think that he was the

11 president of the ARK Assembly.

12 Q. Well, "you don't think." You know that, don't you, because you

13 attended the first session and other sessions thereafter?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So not "I think," please. When you know something, please tell us

16 that.

17 Now, what about Mr. Brdjanin?

18 A. What exactly do you want me to say, whether I worked with him?

19 Q. What sort of relationship did you have with Mr. Brdjanin? Was it

20 a work one and a social one?

21 A. Well, Mr. Brdjanin is here, and I'm sure he can confirm that we

22 did not socialise very much. He had a very well-defined scope of

23 activities. First of all, he was a deputy. He was minister for town

24 planning and construction work, if I'm not mistaken. Later, he was the

25 vice-president as well. So our contacts were rare.

Page 22147

1 Q. You had rare contacts, did you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You know, don't you, Mr. Radic, that people and the media in

4 particular described the four of you, that is, you, Brdjanin, Kupresanin,

5 and Vukic, as the "gang of four who controlled Banja Luka"? Would you --

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object to that. I have no idea

7 where that comes from. And if it comes from where I think it comes from,

8 she has been objecting to me doing that the whole trial and vociferously

9 telling a witness what some other witness has said.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Rephrase your question.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it may be as well if perhaps the witness

12 withdraws I'm going to have to deal with this.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's fair enough. Usher, could you escort

14 the witness out for a few minutes. Mr. Radic, please, we need to discuss

15 this in your absence. And when we are ready, we will call you back to

16 continue. Thank you.

17 In the past when Mr. Ackerman tried to --

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I explain this --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay.

20 MS. KORNER: It is improper to put to a witness in terms "a

21 witness has said this about you." But it's perfectly proper

22 cross-examination to put what that witness has said without making it

23 clear that it's from a witness because obviously I have to put my case. I

24 cannot say Witness -- I've forgotten what his number was, 7.103 I think it

25 was - says this, but I can put it to him that is how he is commonly known,

Page 22148

1 and indeed I'm going to put a report to him from the press now. It's not

2 just that witness. If Mr. Ackerman hadn't objected.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. If you restrict it to the -- because you

4 said "people and media, in particular, described the four of you, that

5 is..." Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Rather than using the phrase

6 "people," I would suggest that you leave that out.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't mind. I'm going to put the

8 press report to him.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Because he can easily understand, and everyone else

10 could easily understand that by "people" you could be including also

11 witnesses that have testified here. So I would --

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't see that. But I accept Your

13 Honour's --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay.

15 MS. KORNER: But I want to make it absolutely clear, so we don't

16 get this objection --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: With regard to suggesting to the witness that the

18 media has depicted him as such, yes, but since I recall witnesses

19 describing him and others in a particular way, try to limit yourself to

20 would not become objectionable in other words.

21 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, however, I am going to be putting

22 not only to this witness, but also to other witnesses who come, I

23 anticipate, what witnesses have said about them, but I'm not going to

24 be -- just a moment, please, Mr. Ackerman, and then you can get up. What

25 is objectionable is -- I'd be grateful if Mr. Ackerman would sit down.

Page 22149

1 Thank you.

2 What is objectionable, what I have been objecting to is Mr.

3 Ackerman saying to a witness: "This is what a witness has said about

4 you." Or what would you say if this is what Mr. X said about this. But I

5 am clearly going to be putting to this witness and to others the substance

6 as a suggestion of what has happened.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly right.

8 MS. KORNER: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, every time I would say something like

11 "someone," "a witness has," "someone has said," something like that to

12 put it to the witness. She objected. You sustained the objection. To

13 the point where I had to stop doing it because you were about to hold me

14 in contempt, I think.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And the solution was always that you rephrase the

16 question, and you put to the witness "would you agree with this

17 statement"? And that's how it's going to be.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm going to find the transcripts because I wasn't

19 even allowed to do that. I wasn't allowed to do anything like that.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You find the transcripts and you are going to find

21 plenty of them.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll find it, Judge. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

23 I have been wrong more than once.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Even I am -- Ms. Korner, can I bring the witness in?

25 MS. KORNER: Before the witness comes in, I'm going to explain.

Page 22150

1 These articles, some of them, these came off the internet. We have no

2 translations. So we're going to have to --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: They're which, from which --

4 MS. KORNER: This one, the one I'm about to show next is August

5 the 3rd, 1992, from something called Vreme. So, Your Honour, that's about

6 all we can do is read it to him and get the translation.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Put it on the ELMO so it's easier for the

8 interpreters --

9 MS. KORNER: We'll put it on the ELMO, although I think the

10 interpreters have copies.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you bring in the witness again, please.

12 Sorry for that, Mr. Radic, but we are trying to make your life

13 easier.


15 Q. Mr. Radic, did you know that you were described in the press, had

16 you and Mr. Vukic and Mr. Kupresanin and Mr. Brdjanin --

17 JUDGE JANU: The witness wants to say something.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I think the witness wants to say

19 something before you proceed with the question.

20 Yes, Mr. Radic, do you want to tell us something?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the issue was that I shouldn't

22 respond to that question, I have to tell Ms. Korner that I have read this

23 on two occasions in independent newspapers, that a certain witness, a

24 journalist who lost his job because of us, he said that we were stupid and

25 dangerous, and he said that I was deceptive. I hope we'll have the

Page 22151

1 occasion to solve this matter, and to see why I'm deceptive in his

2 opinion. So I know that they did describe the four of us in such terms.

3 MS. KORNER: I don't need to show the article. Thank you, Your

4 Honour. Then. I'll pick it up from there.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Your question, Ms. Korner.


7 Q. My next question is who's the journalist you're talking about?

8 A. If he was a protected witness, it wouldn't be appropriate for me

9 to reveal his identity, because in the newspapers it said it was a

10 protected witness who lost his job because he had been expelled. It's not

11 my duty to identify that journalist. [Realtime transcript read in error

12 "it's my duty..."] But I have an idea who it might be.

13 Q. All right. I'll -- we may need to use -- are you saying that the

14 first time you heard that expression was as a result of reporting from

15 this trial?

16 A. It was said that this journalist, the protected witness, made such

17 a claim before the Tribunal.

18 Q. Stop, Mr. Radic. Not the question I asked. Are you saying that's

19 the first time you heard the four of you described as "the gang of four"?

20 A. Mm-hmm.

21 Q. What's the answer to that?

22 A. The first time I read about it was in the newspapers.

23 Q. As a result of this trial?

24 A. As a result of what he had stated before this Tribunal as a

25 protected witness. That's what it says in the newspaper. It's not my

Page 22152

1 fault.

2 Q. No, Mr. Radic, I'm going to deal with that --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it something to do with the transcript,

4 Mr. Ackerman?


6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do it now.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: 56.20, the transcript says that Mr. Radic says

8 "It's my duty to identify that journalist." What he said was "it's not my

9 duty to identify that journalist."

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine so. I would imagine so. And that's

11 what I heard him say anyway.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to ask to go into private

13 session in a moment but I'm going to deal with it.

14 Q. Mr. Radic, please listen carefully to this question.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You want to go in private session?

16 MS. KORNER: In a moment.

17 Q. Are you saying that until you read a report of this trial, you had

18 never before heard yourself described as "one of a gang of four"?

19 A. No, never before that event.

20 Q. Right.

21 MS. KORNER: I would now like to go, Your Honour, please, into

22 private session.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while.

24 [Private session]

25 [redacted].

Page 22153

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Ms. Korner.


23 Q. Are you familiar, Mr. Radic, with a journal called - and I hope

24 I'm pronouncing it correctly - "Vreme"?

25 A. A Belgrade journal.

Page 22154

1 Q. I would like you to have in front of you and on the ELMO an

2 edition from August the 3rd, 1992. We do not have it in your language, so

3 you're going to have to depend on the interpreters. Could you please --

4 could we have on the ELMO, please, page 3 of this article.

5 This was an article written by a journalist called Mr. Milos

6 Vasic, and you've heard of him?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Who in August 1992 was dealing with the events in the Autonomous

9 Region of Krajina, and he said this.

10 MS. KORNER: Could we pull it up, please. Yes.

11 Q. "Real political control of the Bosnian Krajina thus came into the

12 hands of the `Gang of Four', Radoslav Brdjanin (our state from here to

13 Moscow), Vojo Kupresanin, Dr. Radosav Vukic, and Predrag Radic, all SDS

14 leaders in Krajina."

15 Were you aware that this had been said in August of 1992?

16 A. No, I wasn't.

17 Q. Nobody brought that to your attention?

18 A. No one brought that to my attention. And no one could have

19 established links between me with Mr. Milan Babic and Goran Martic et

20 cetera. I can see what it says above.

21 Q. You're able to read English, are you?

22 A. I can see that they're mentioning Dr. Milan Babic, with whom I

23 never had any contact. Goran Hadzic, I don't know that person either.

24 And I don't know within what context the author's referring to what he has

25 termed the "Gang of Four" and I don't know this gentleman, Milos Vasic I'd

Page 22155

1 appreciate it if someone could translate this for me.

2 Q. I don't imagine it would be too difficult, Mr. Radic, to get the

3 original version of this. I want to move on from that.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, is this to be made an exhibit?

5 MS. KORNER: Certainly. Your Honour -- thank you. P2698.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.

7 MS. KORNER: Mr. Ackerman was quite right to remind, and I will be

8 coming back to this article again.


10 Q. You and Mr. Brdjanin and Mr. Vukic were in close contact, weren't

11 you, the three of you with Mr. Karadzic in the period leading up to the

12 declaration of the Serbian State?

13 A. The declaration of the Serbian State, could you just remind me of

14 the date when the Serbian State was declared?

15 Q. In January of 1992.

16 A. In January 1992. At the time, I was already president of the

17 municipality, so by virtue of my position I had to have contact with

18 President Karadzic.

19 Q. But you were also in contact with President Karadzic together,

20 weren't you, with Mr. Vukic and Mr. Brdjanin in respect to what was going

21 to happen once the Serbian State was declared?

22 A. Mr. Vukic and I were members of the SDS main board. Brdjanin

23 wasn't. So I can't say that for Brdjanin. As a deputy, he may have had

24 contact with Karadzic. But that would be a different form of contact.

25 This was at a party level, and in this case it was on the basis of being a

Page 22156

1 deputy.

2 Q. I would like you now, please, to listen, just to begin with, to an

3 intercept of a telephone conversation.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this has already been exhibited as

5 P2382.13. And we'll give you a transcript in a moment, but I would like

6 you to identify, please, your voice.

7 Your Honour, with luck, this is going to work on Sanction.

8 [Audiotape played]

9 MS. KORNER: You can stop. Just stop it for a moment.

10 I'm sorry, Your Honour, I'm just trying to find my own copy of

11 this because I'm not sure...

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I don't know if they heard you, Ms. Korner.

13 MS. KORNER: Can we pause, please. Your Honour, it's being

14 operated by Ms. Gustin.

15 Q. Do you recognise Dr. Vukic's voice, Mr. Radic?

16 A. Yes, I recognise it.

17 MS. KORNER: I think, actually, probably the simplest thing is to

18 play it all the way through and then ask questions.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And then ask questions. Are we going to play the

20 entire tape?

21 MS. KORNER: Yes, it's probably best, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so.

23 [Audiotape played]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We have six minutes, seven minutes, Ms. Korner,

25 until the break.

Page 22157

1 MS. KORNER: Yes.

2 Q. You identified Dr. Vukic's voice, Mr. Radic. Was that your voice

3 there as well?

4 A. Yes, it was.

5 Q. And also the voice of Radoslav Brdjanin?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the voice of Dr. Karadzic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And in November of 1991, it was on the 18th of November 1991, the

10 three of you were together talking to Dr. Karadzic. Is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you were discussing various things in connection with the -

13 effectively - declaration of the Serb State?

14 A. No, that's not what was discussed.

15 Q. Well, one of the things that was discussed was the question of

16 relationships that -- not you, Dr. Vukic - between the Croatian Krajina,

17 Mr. Babic, and Mr. Martic. Is that correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Then what was discussed was the question of the payment of moneys

20 to Sarajevo, wasn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Korner, because I think that Mr.

23 Vukic wants to say something else.

24 MS. KORNER: Mr. Radic.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, Mr. Radic wants to say something else. Yes,

Page 22158

1 Mr. Radic.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think we should skip what

3 Mr. Vukic had to say to Karadzic. It was a crazy idea to link up Liga,

4 Banja and Koric [phoen] which were in Croatia with Krajina --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Lika, interpreter's correction.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And Vukic warned him that it would

7 be very damaging, and this is what Karadzic confirmed and said that this

8 should not be done.

9 Because that was part of Croatia that had been internationally

10 recognised, and the consequences for us would have been very negative if

11 Babic and Martic continued working on this idea and attempted to connect

12 these two Krajina regions. So one should bear in mind the subject that

13 was discussed with Karadzic, and Karadzic said that he fully agreed that

14 that should not be done.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Radic. And sorry for calling

16 you Dr. Vukic. It was a [Latin phrase spoken].

17 Ms. Korner, you may proceed.


19 Q. You, I think, were talking about the Serbs - I think it was you,

20 but it may be Dr. Vukic - owning 70 per cent of the land in the Krajina.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Karadzic, I think.

22 MS. KORNER: Mr. Karadzic. Your Honour, I've now lost it.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not what I said.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it's not what he said, no.


Page 22159

1 Q. And then --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it's what he said. It's page 8 in the

3 transcript, Ms. Korner. Halfway down the page or a little bit further

4 down.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't want to spend a lot of time -- I

6 want to finish this topic before the break.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Okay.


9 Q. And one of the discussions there was about this particular

10 newspaper that I asked you about. That was between Mr. Brdjanin and Dr.

11 Karadzic, Vreme. That's right, isn't it?

12 A. Yes, but what Brdjanin discussed has nothing to do with the gang

13 of four. Vreme referred to Karadzic in the article, and Brdjanin

14 mentioned that fact, not the "Gang of Four."

15 Q. But what was being discussed between Brdjanin and Karadzic about

16 which Karadzic was complaining, if we look at the top of page 9, Karadzic

17 says: "I want to get you out of the trouble regarding those directors,"

18 and you said you weren't joking. And this was Mr. Brdjanin already saying

19 in November 1991, wasn't it, that people who were not going to be loyal to

20 the Serbian State should be dismissed?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, if not the complete architect of this idea of

23 dismissals of non-Serbs, was one of its strongest advocates, wasn't it --

24 wasn't he?

25 A. Well, it seems that one could draw the conclusion that he

Page 22160

1 supported such an idea, the idea to dismiss people. But as you said, he

2 wasn't the architect. But in any case, you have heard what Mr. Karadzic

3 has said.

4 Q. Yes, and if you have a look at, please, Exhibit P93, this was --

5 this is an article in Oslobodenje. I always have to do this one. 12th of

6 November 1991. Headline: After the plebiscite, you'd better give

7 yourselves up. Banja Luka, 11th of November 1991. I shall propose that

8 all the directors and other managers who did not take part in the

9 plebiscite be urgently dismissed from their positions in the entire

10 autonomous region of Bosanska Krajina. This was announced during today's

11 press conference by Brdjanin. Also propose that the same thing be done in

12 the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina. How can they be directors in Yugoslavia

13 when they are against Yugoslavia? They should all better tender their

14 resignations right away because we shall find out their names in a few

15 days when we check the lists of voters."

16 That's what Mr. Karadzic was complaining about, wasn't it, that

17 statement by Mr. Brdjanin?

18 A. Most likely. I can't be certain, but it seems to be that.

19 Q. And Mr. Brdjanin really was one of the architects of this policy,

20 wasn't he, taken up, I agree, by the republican level? But he was one of

21 the architects, wasn't he?

22 A. Yes, but not one of the key architects. One couldn't call him, so

23 to speak, the idealogue of this matter.

24 Q. Was that, perhaps, Professor Lazarevic?

25 A. No, no, not Professor Lazarevic, absolutely not. At the time,

Page 22161

1 Professor Lazarevic was in the club of intellectuals. He wasn't a party

2 member at all.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that will be perhaps the appropriate

4 moment.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have -- you can escort the witness out.

6 We'll have a 20-minute break, and then we conclude at 6.30. Thank

7 you.

8 --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I notice Mr. Ackerman has the yellow card. Yes.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Page 65, line 23, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: 65, 23.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: The question asked was: "But he was one of the

14 architects wasn't he." The answer that Mr. Radic gave was: "One of the

15 smaller architects. One couldn't call him so to the ideologue of this

16 matter." He didn't say: "Yes, but not one of the key architects."

17 That's not what he said. He said: "One of the smaller architects." The

18 difference is dramatic and I can't believe it got translated that badly.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Radic, you've heard what Mr. Ackerman has just

20 stated.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you agree with what he said?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That he was one of the small ones,

24 yes, that is correct, that he was not the architect or, as it is being

25 suggested, that he was the architect of that.

Page 22162

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, Ms. Korner.

2 Thank you, Mr. Radic. Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.


4 Q. I want to stay with the topic, Mr. Radic, for the next half hour

5 which is all we've got of how you were regarded by those who had

6 experience of you in 1992. Was there an occasion 1999 in the Assembly of

7 Republika Srpska where one of the delegates, a Muslim named Osmancevic,

8 got up and accused -- made an accusation against you and Mr. Brdjanin?

9 A. And the question is how he saw me?

10 Q. The question is do you recall in 1999 Mr. Osmancevic getting up

11 and making a public statement in the Assembly of the Republika Srpska?

12 A. Correct. But he didn't prove it with anything.

13 Q. No. But he alleged, did he not, that both you and Mr. Brdjanin

14 were the two most responsible people for what he called "genocide,

15 expulsion, and ethnic cleansing of the citizens in Banja Luka"?

16 A. Again, he did state that, but he never confirmed or proved that

17 with anything. And I would like him to offer a proof to that effect.

18 Q. But is there anything that you did, Mr. Radic, during 1992 that

19 you can think of that should make Mr. Osmancevic make that accusation

20 against you?

21 A. I cannot think of anything that I may have done that would have

22 led him to say that.

23 Q. And was your only response to this that two people could not be

24 held responsible for everything that happened in Banja Luka?

25 A. That's not what I said. Only two persons, Mr. Osmancevic gave an

Page 22163

1 arbitrary statement about the events in Banja Luka because he had already

2 left Banja Luka, and he did not know what was going on in the town.

3 Q. Mr. Osmancevic was one -- was a director of one of the most

4 successful firms in Banja Luka, a firm called Metal?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. He was one of the people, and I can show you the article if you

7 require it, Mr. Radic, that Mr. Brdjanin specifically named who ought to

8 lose his job?

9 A. Possible.

10 Q. Well, can you take it from me, and if -- as I said to you, Mr.

11 Radic, if I'm wrong, I will be corrected by the Defence. But he was one

12 of the people named in an interview that was published in Glas with Mr.

13 Brdjanin.

14 Now, Mr. Osmancevic had done nothing wrong, had he? He was one of

15 the most successful company directors in Banja Luka.

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And there was absolutely no reason on earth why he should be

18 dismissed, was there?

19 A. No reason whatsoever, as much as there was no reason for the Serbs

20 being dismissed in Zagreb and elsewhere. This was nothing new in the

21 area. I mean, there was nothing against him personally. It was just a

22 principle in the war-torn countries, Croatia and Bosnia.

23 Q. Did you have anything to do with the dismissal of Mr. Osmancevic?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So you can think of no reason from your point of view why

Page 22164

1 Mr. Osmancevic should have made this accusation not only against

2 Mr. Brdjanin but as against you?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Now, yesterday, Mr. Osmancevic, when I began asking -- Mr. Radic,

5 when I began asking you questions, I asked you about why you hadn't kept

6 your notes that you had of various meetings. And in particular, why you

7 hadn't kept them when there came a time when you thought you'd been

8 indicted. Do you remember those questions?

9 A. Yesterday? Yes, I do.

10 Q. And you told us -- the question was this, at page 46 of LiveNote:

11 "Mr. Radic, didn't you at some stage believe that you had been indicted by

12 the Tribunal as a results of reports in the media?" And your answer was

13 "no". I'd like you to have now, please, a copy in English, I'm afraid

14 again, but of an interview with you, which we're going to hand out copies

15 and I'll read out the relevant part.

16 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, this will become Exhibit 2699.

17 Q. Mr. Radic, do you remember being interviewed on September the

18 15th, 1999, by a journalist from a publication called "Nezavisne Novine"?

19 A. Nezavisne Novine.

20 Q. Do you recall being interviewed by a journalist called

21 Biljana Gagula?

22 A. Yes, that's possible.

23 Q. Anything is possible. That's what I keep saying. All right.

24 The interview began in this way. The journalist asked you:

25 "Mr. Radic, a list of persons allegedly indicted for war crimes by

Page 22165

1 The Hague Tribunal has appeared in the public. Your name is also on that

2 list. However, it seems that you were not perturbed by that information."

3 And you said -- your answer was: "If that is the impression I give, the

4 reason should be sought in your question. Namely, I as well as you and

5 the majority of those who know me believe that the whole affair with

6 alleged indictments for war crimes is basically a semi-information.

7 However, it is true that secret lists with the names of besides yours

8 truly, Madam Plavsic, General Milanovic, Dr. Kuzmanovic, Jovo Rosic, Milan

9 Puvacic, and Dr. Mirjanic did not leave anyone indifferent." And then you

10 go on to explain that your conscious is clear and you're prepared to

11 travel to The Hague and appear in front of the Tribunal if necessary.

12 Now, Mr. Radic, are you saying that when you gave that answer

13 yesterday, you had forgotten about the list that was published and the

14 interview with this particular newspaper?

15 A. No, I did not forget. However, I abide by what I said, that if

16 there is evidence I am prepared to appear before The Hague Tribunal. As

17 far as I can see here, the current president of the constitutional court,

18 members of the constitutional court, the president of the district court,

19 the rector Dragoljub Mirjanic and so on and so forth. So if this is the

20 list that they're talking about then, as I say, I am prepared to appear

21 before The Hague Tribunal to dissent what I said.

22 Q. Mr. Radic, did you understand the question? You said in terms

23 yesterday, when you were explaining that you had no need to keep your

24 notes, that you had never for one moment believed that you had been

25 indicted by this Tribunal as a result of reports in the media. This

Page 22166

1 article, published in September of 1999, shows quite clearly that

2 according to the media you were on a list of persons who had been

3 indicted, and you told the journalist you were prepared to come to The

4 Hague. Now, I'm asking you why yesterday you said there had never been a

5 time when you thought or you believed you'd been indicted.

6 A. Because no one ever told me that I had been indicted, not even the

7 investigators with whom I talked in Banja Luka. They never drew my

8 attention to that possibility, so I don't see any reason why I should

9 declare myself guilty.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You can refer the witness as well to

11 the last-but-one question and answer where it reads, again, "First

12 according to diplomatic sources close to The Hague Tribunal, I am already

13 on the list of war criminals." He repeats it more than once in the same

14 article.

15 MS. KORNER: Yes.

16 Q. Well, Mr. Radic, I simply want to know why you told us yesterday

17 that it never for one moment -- well, you never believed that you'd been

18 indicted.

19 A. Because my conscience is clear, and I know that there's nothing

20 that I can be accused of. If this statements means anything, simply it

21 never occurred to me that I would be on such a list.

22 Q. So despite the fact that there was a list published in the

23 newspapers and despite the fact that you had told the journalist you had

24 received information from diplomatic sources that you had been indicted,

25 you entirely discounted that, did you?

Page 22167

1 A. This was written in the Ekstra magazine, what I consider to be a

2 low press, and I didn't think that that publication was serious.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I would stop there. He's beating around the bush,

4 and that is enough for the Tribunal -- to the Trial Chamber.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm not pursuing this any further.

6 Thank you.

7 Q. Now, I want to look, please, now, Mr. Radic, at the events after

8 that conversation you and Dr. Vukic and Mr. Brdjanin had with Dr. Karadzic

9 in November. In December of 1991, did you attend a meeting of the SDS

10 main board?

11 A. Well, for me to remember now whether I attended a meeting -- what

12 date again? In December?

13 Q. In December 1991.

14 A. No, frankly I cannot remember.

15 Q. Well, it may refresh your memory to have a look again, please, at

16 the document that was -- resulted or approved of that meeting. P97, the

17 document you saw in Banja Luka as well. The instructions -- the first set

18 of instructions really that dealt with the setting up of crisis staffs.

19 Now, did you attend the meeting at which these --

20 A. No.

21 Q. Documents were -- when did you first get hold of this document,

22 then? Who gave it to you?

23 A. Well, the instruction arrived in all municipalities. However, in

24 Sarajevo on the 19th of December 1991, no, I was not present.

25 Q. What I want to know --

Page 22168

1 A. I mean, I don't know.

2 Q. Can you now recall how you acquired your copy of this?

3 A. It's possible that it was sent to me.

4 Q. We have been through this. Anything is possible, and anybody is

5 probable.

6 A. Who brought it to me? I didn't personally take it over because I

7 would have known if I had been there.

8 Q. Do you know if Dr. Vukic attended and brought back a copy?

9 A. I couldn't tell you whether Vukic was present or not and whether

10 he was the one who brought me a copy.

11 Q. All right. Now, when you got these instructions, did you carry

12 out those instructions in the Banja Luka Municipality, which was a --

13 what's called a variant A municipality? In other words, it had a Serb

14 majority.

15 A. I should read the document in order to refresh my memory as to

16 what --

17 Q. All right.

18 A. -- As to what variant A is. I cannot simply know what it says

19 under variant A.

20 Q. All right. You read the part under variant A.

21 A. Variant A.

22 Q. You can just read it to yourself.

23 A. Yes.

24 This refers largely to the municipal board of the SDS, that it was

25 the municipal board of the SDS that was in charge of implementing what it

Page 22169

1 says here. For instance, item 4, to convene the assembly --

2 Q. But you were a member of the municipal SDS as well, weren't you,

3 Mr. Radic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. All I want to know -- it's a simple question -- did

6 you carry out the instructions?

7 A. There was nothing to carry out because the majority -- I mean, the

8 majority of the deputies were Serbs. To convene and proclaim -- I mean,

9 they already had the majority, so it was no longer -- it was not necessary

10 to convene.

11 Q. I understand that this was applying to municipalities where Serbs

12 held the majority. But can I just ask you: Did you maintain -- not you

13 personally -- but was round-the-clock staffing in the SDS municipal board

14 maintained?

15 A. SDS, I don't know. I wouldn't know that there was a

16 round-the-clock staffing.

17 Q. Did you form under item 3 a crisis staff?

18 A. Municipal board and --

19 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we cannot interpret if the witness is

20 reading at this speed. We don't have the document.


22 Q. The interpreters have having difficulties. I don't want you to

23 read it out. I just want to know whether you formed a crisis staff. The

24 answer is yes or no or I can't remember.

25 A. A list of members of the crisis staff. So you have the municipal

Page 22170

1 crisis staff, that was established at the very beginning, just before the

2 war.

3 Q. Right. I'll ask one more time, Mr. Radic: In accordance with

4 these instructions when you received them, and other members of the

5 municipal board, was an SDS municipal board crisis staff formed? Or was a

6 crisis staff formed, I should say.

7 A. The municipal SDS established a crisis staff, as it is indicated

8 in item 3.

9 Q. Thank you. All right. You can put that document away.

10 I want to go back, and I'm sorry because there's one document I

11 missed out when I was dealing with the rally yesterday. The rally was

12 held on the 26th of October in Banja Luka, we saw. Was there -- and

13 attended by Dr. Karadzic and other people also as we saw. Was there also

14 a meeting in Banja Luka of all the municipal presidents on that same day?

15 A. I couldn't tell you that. I don't know.

16 Q. All right. Well, I want you to have a look, please, at P89.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: While the document's being retrieved, I wonder if

18 the Prosecution intends to make an exhibit out of the Nezavisne Novine

19 article.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: She has already, Mr. Ackerman.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: I missed the number.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: 2699.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry.


25 Q. This is a telex, Mr. Radic, sent to municipal assemblies, and it's

Page 22171

1 an order of the SDS which was made public at the meeting of all the

2 municipal presidents on the 26th of October 1991 at 1500 hours in Banja

3 Luka, chaired by Dr. Karadzic. Do you remember now looking at that, a

4 meeting of the municipal presidents which was chaired by Dr. Karadzic, the

5 same day as that huge demonstration?

6 A. I have to admit that I don't remember.

7 Q. All right. Do you remember instructions like this, orders of the

8 SDS, being issued?

9 A. No, I don't remember, but it's quite possible that this was

10 accepted.

11 Q. All right. Do you know why Mr. Brdjanin would be sending a telex

12 like this? I mean, he's ascribed in it apparently as the coordinator for

13 implementing decisions.

14 A. I couldn't tell why he did it, whether he was the coordinator for

15 the implementation of decisions, the 29th of October 1991. Celinac.

16 That's what it says at the bottom. No, really, I couldn't tell whether he

17 was the coordinator and whether he was authorised to send out a document

18 like this.

19 Q. All right. Because there was, wasn't there, the same day - it was

20 obviously a very busy day in Banja Luka - a meeting of the Autonomous

21 Region of Krajina Assembly? That's right, isn't it? Do you remember

22 that, Mr. Radic? There was a meeting of the Autonomous Region of Krajina

23 Assembly as well?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And do you remember these instructions that Mr. Brdjanin was

Page 22172

1 sending out being accepted?

2 A. No, I don't.

3 Q. All right.

4 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you.

5 Your Honour, I'm going to move on to a different topic now, as

6 Your Honour has had a very long day in any event.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, very long day, Ms. Korner. And tomorrow will

8 be another one.

9 Mr. Radic, we are going to stop here. You also deserve a rest.

10 We will reconvene again tomorrow at 2.15. I don't think we'll finish

11 tomorrow, from the looks of it, Ms. Korner.

12 MS. KORNER: Might, Your Honour, but...

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And Mr. Ackerman, I take it that you

14 have already taken steps with regard to the other witness?

15 MR. ACKERMAN: The witness has been stopped, Your Honour. We were

16 able to get him stopped.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you because that kind of cooperation saves

18 the Tribunal money.

19 Mr. Radic, have a nice evening, rest, and tomorrow we will

20 continue.

21 So we stand adjourned until tomorrow at 2.15.

22 MS. KORNER: Does Your Honour yet know whether we'll sitting on

23 Friday morning or Friday afternoon?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's put it this like this: We are trying to do

25 our best to finish the Nikolic sentencing hearing tomorrow. It may or may

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1 not be possible. If it's not possible, then obviously we will continue on

2 Friday morning. But all -- we will have very little left. We are talking

3 of maybe 30 minutes to 1 hour at the most. The chances are as I said that

4 we finish Nikolic tomorrow, and we transfer the sitting of Friday to the

5 morning, but that will be confirmed more or less halfway through tomorrow

6 morning. Okay?

7 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.30 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day of

11 November, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.