1 Thursday, 6 November 2003
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you call the case,
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon, Your Honours.
8 Case Number IT-99-36-T, The Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you.
10 Can you follow in a language that you can understand?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. Yes, I
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please be seated.
14 Appearances, Prosecution.
15 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Ann Sutherland, assisted by Denise
16 Gustin, case manager. Good afternoon, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.
18 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman
20 appearing with David Cunningham and Aleksandar Vujic.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good afternoon to you all. I
22 understand there are some preliminaries.
23 MS. KORNER: Just two really administrative matters Your Honour.
24 The first relates to sitting dates. We have been told that the holiday
25 has changed.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I got notice of it today which basically means
2 that we will have to change -- before it was the 26th, now it's the 25th.
3 Am I correct?
4 MS. KORNER: Yes.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's -- see, I haven't had time honestly today
6 to --
7 MS. KORNER: Can I leave that with Your Honours to consider.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, I have it on my desk, a note on my desk to
9 find out exactly what we should do next, how to go about this. But
10 obviously what it entails is we were not sitting on the 26th, now we will
11 be sitting on the 26th. And we were sitting on the 25th, and we will not
12 sit on the 25th. So when -- that week are we sitting in the morning or
13 the afternoon? That's when we were supposed to resume on the 25th.
14 MS. KORNER: We were supposed to resume on Tuesday the 25th.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And now we won't be able to resume on Tuesday the
17 MS. KORNER: Not likely.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will resume on the 26th.
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour is not suggesting we sit on Monday the
20 24th --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I am available.
22 MS. KORNER: I see Mr. Ackerman arranged -- he's shaking his head.
23 We'll start on the Wednesday, then.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. It doesn't make any difference
25 because we were starting and stopping Wednesday --
1 MS. KORNER: We lose one more day, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: It doesn't make a difference.
3 MS. KORNER: Quite right. Your Honour, the other thing I
4 understand has changed which is the plenary which is no longer the --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: The 12th.
6 MS. KORNER: It was the 17th and 18th or something.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, the week before.
8 MS. KORNER: That's confirmed.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
10 MS. KORNER: All right, thank you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: To my knowledge. But I haven't got an indication
12 that the dates have changed.
13 MS. KORNER: All right.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: They have been fixed quite some time ago, and
15 unusually a week before --
16 MS. KORNER: Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: But that's the position.
18 MS. KORNER: Right. Thank you, Your Honour. And finally, this --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: That should be one day.
20 MS. KORNER: That is one day, is it?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Probably. Probably. Probably one.
22 MS. KORNER: And then finally Your Honour, in relation to the
23 judgement, the written judgement, can I just raise it for this reason: We
24 got information that Banja Luka Radio reported that Mr. Brdjanin had
25 been -- that your ruling had dismissed all the charges of genocide as well
1 as those related to count -- the count relating to destruction of cultural
2 and religious heritage. Your Honour, we all know these things happen but
3 we think it would assist if Your Honours were able to tell us when we're
4 likely to get the written document.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's being finalised. It's the very end of the
7 MS. KORNER: Right.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But unfortunately I had my main legal officer
9 in charge this week who was sick, and plus I was involved in sittings in
10 the morning and the afternoon the whole week.
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I perhaps make it clear to dispel
12 any illusions that Banja Luka may be under, that Your Honours' rulings did
13 not dismiss the discharges of genocide or the charges of destruction of
14 cultural and religious heritage.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Actually, Ms. Korner, it makes me feel at home
16 because I spent 25 years of my career as a Judge reading reports of my own
17 judgements which I never gave.
18 MS. KORNER: Yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So believe me, I suppose that is enough. I don't
20 blame anyone because sometimes reporters are not up to the standard that
21 one would expect. But -- and sometimes our decisions are not easy to
22 comprehend as well. But to make it clear, I mean, if the Banja Luka paper
23 or media reported what my -- our oral decision the way you put it, then
24 they are --
25 MS. KORNER: In error.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Very much so. Very much so.
2 MS. KORNER: Thank you. That's all I want to raise.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman. You wrote the article in the Banja
4 Luka --
5 MR. ACKERMAN: I didn't, Your Honour. I was just going to suggest
6 that the Chamber might want to take that report into consideration when
7 evaluating all of the press stuff that's in this case, the radio stuff,
8 the newspaper stuff. I have been harping from the beginning that it's not
9 reliable, and now Ms. Korner has proven it to you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.
11 So, let's bring Mr. Radic. Shall we make a humungous effort and
12 try to finish with it today.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I simply cannot can't. Just before he
14 comes in, usher. Your Honour, it's quite clear that -- and I hope it's
15 clear to Your Honours as well that this is perhaps from any point of view
16 one of the most important witnesses Your Honours have heard from. I
17 really have been through the matters to try and prune them down, but there
18 are really a number of important matters.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Ms. Korner.
20 MS. KORNER: So I will be definitely going into tomorrow.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And tomorrow I tried my best to shift the
22 sitting to the morning, but I'm afraid I cannot. So we'll sit in the
23 afternoon, and hopefully we'll finish early.
24 Ms. Korner is sceptical.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So good afternoon to you, Mr. Radic.
2 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that you have your spectacles with you
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have them with me.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So let's proceed. You're testifying on
7 the basis of your solemn declaration? Yes, you want to tell me something?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether it is customary
9 for me to inform you of a change to part of my testimony yesterday --
10 mistake -- and enter the transcript.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: You want to modify a part of your testimony, in
12 other words?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's just one sentence.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes. Go ahead.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday when I was asked about
16 documents from Mr. Brdjanin, a document that had been signed in the
17 capacity of coordinator, I said that the SDS, the municipal board of the
18 SDS, had done that. The Prosecutor said you were also a member of the
19 municipal board of the SDS.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I remember that very clearly. And you agreed
21 to that.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I automatically agreed to that since
23 it was quite late already.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I remember that very clearly.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And now I'm stating that I was never
1 a member of the municipal board of the SDS. I checked that, and I was
2 told -- I received this information from Banja Luka. I was told I was
3 never a member of that board.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
5 Yes, Ms. Korner. And may I remind you, you are still testifying
6 under oath, under the solemn declaration that you entered the first day of
7 your testimony. And if there is or are any questions that in your opinion
8 would tend to incriminate you, you can address me straight away and bring
9 that out and ask me for -- to be exempted from answering that question.
10 And then, as I explained, we will take a decision whether that is the case
11 or whether to apply a rule that we have to ask you to answer the question,
12 just the same, with the caveats that our rules provide for.
13 Ms. Korner.
14 WITNESS: PREDRAG RADIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Cross-examined by Ms. Korner: [Continued]
17 Q. Arising out of what you just said, Mr. Radic, who did you talk to
18 in Banja Luka?
19 A. With my secretary. I asked him to check this, to check whether at
20 any time I was a member of the SDS municipal board in Banja Luka. And
21 later on, he told me that I had never been a member.
22 Q. I'm sorry. Are you saying that you're unable to recall yourself
23 whether you were a member of the municipal board of the SDS in Banja Luka,
24 together with Dr. Vukic?
25 A. In response to your question, when I was asked about the
1 establishment of the crisis staff, I said that this was done by the SDS.
2 And you told me that I was also a member of the SDS municipal board. I
3 automatically replied that I had been a member. But later on, I
4 remembered that in fact I was never a member of the SDS municipal board.
5 So the error was mine.
6 Q. Did you discuss any other aspects of your evidence?
7 A. No, I didn't. I just wanted to check that because later on I
8 remembered that I had really never been a member of the municipal board.
9 Q. All right. Because the reason I ask whether you discussed any
10 other aspects of your evidence is I think you were told by His Honour at
11 the end of the first day that you shouldn't talk about your evidence with
13 JUDGE AGIUS: You know that. You're aware of that obligation, no,
14 of that duty, that you shouldn't talk to anybody about your testimony?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, it was my mistake when I
16 gave this false testimony, when I gave the wrong testimony, and now I
17 understand that I can't even do this. I can't even check this.
18 MS. KORNER:
19 Q. All right. We may come back to that, Mr. Radic, but I want to
20 move on, please, and deal with the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of
21 Krajina. Could you have a look, please, at Document P23. These are the
22 minutes or an extract from the minutes of the 9th session held on the 6th
23 of November 1991. And there was a discussion -- or the agenda was the
24 implementation of the conclusions adopted at the session held on the 26th
25 of November 1991. That was -- we already dealt with yesterday, the day of
1 the demonstration, and the day that there was apparently a meeting of the
2 presidents of the municipality. And on the 6th of November under item 1,
3 it was established that the presidents of the municipalities had failed
4 fully to carry out the conclusions we adopted together at the last
5 session. Those were the conclusions apparently contained in the telex.
6 It was noted that in some municipalities, Sanski Most, Kotor
7 Varos, Prijedor, Bosanska Krupa, and Bihac, it was impossible to implement
8 these conclusions at all because they can only be carried out within the
10 Now, you were at this session, Mr. Radic, because you spoke. If
11 you look under item 2, you can see your speech. Is this the situation,
12 that those instructions contained in that telex couldn't be carried out in
13 those municipalities because there was no overall Serb majority in them?
14 A. Let me just have a look to see which municipalities are concerned.
15 Q. Yes. Directly under item 1, second paragraph.
16 A. I assume that that's the case. It says "Sanski Most, Kotor Varos,
17 Prijedor, Krupa, Bihac." I assume that it wasn't possible to implement
18 what had been requested; namely, the mobilisation.
19 Q. Based on the above, if you go down to the end of item 1, it was
20 decided that the vice-president of the assembly of the autonomous region,
21 Mr. Brdjanin, should inform the president of the Bosnia-Herzegovina SDS,
22 Radovan Karadzic, as to the implementation. Now, was that because
23 Mr. Brdjanin had more contact with Mr. Karadzic because he was a deputy?
24 A. Probably because the deputies had been elected, and it was their
25 responsibility to communicate with the president and with the key figures
1 in Republika Srpska.
2 Q. And the situation is, isn't it, Mr. Radic, that there was a lot of
3 communication at this stage between the assembly of the autonomous region
4 and the leadership of the SDS in Pale?
5 A. It's difficult for me to confirm whether it was extensive or not.
6 The president of the ARK could confirm that. The president of the
7 autonomous region could confirm that and those who were given the task to
8 communicate with the leaders in the Republika Srpska. Naturally, they had
9 to communicate with the president and the leaders in Republika Srpska.
10 That is quite natural.
11 Q. All right. Now, can you move, please, next -- I'm sorry, you can
12 give that back to the usher. And could you look, please, now at
13 Exhibit P31.
14 This is the meeting that was held on the 8th of January. And
15 there are two points that I want to raise. It was the meeting where Mr.
16 Grahovac was dismissed. Do you remember that?
17 A. No, I don't remember that really.
18 Q. All right. Well, because a commission -- if you look, please --
19 I'm not sure where it appears. It's the last bit before the third
20 effective item on the agenda. "A commission was formed to propose the
21 president of the executive council of the autonomous region," and you were
22 one of the members of the commission. Do you remember that?
23 A. Yes. It says that Mr. Kupresanin, Predrag Radic, Predrag
24 Lazarevic, Dusan Jaksic, and Radosav Vukic were there. At the session it
25 was decided that they should speak to Slobodan Milosevic about the
1 position of the Serbian people outside of Serbia. Yes, that's what it was
3 Q. You, in fact, Mr. Radic, were quite an important member of this
4 assembly, weren't you perhaps because of your position as president of the
5 municipal assembly?
6 A. As president of the municipal assembly of the biggest town in
7 Republika Srpska, and in that region, yes, I was. There were also two
8 members of the club of intellectuals. That's Mr. Lazarevic, Dr. Jaksic,
9 et cetera.
10 Q. Can I ask, what were you going to speak to Milosevic about, the
11 position of the Serbian people outside Serbia. What was that about?
12 A. Well, you know, at the time it was already quite clear it was the
13 8th of January 1992. It was already quite clear that Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina would secede from Yugoslavia. And we were interested, just as
15 the Croats in Bosnia were interested, and they consulted their mother
16 country, we wanted to see in our mother country, Serbia, what the position
17 of Serbs in Krajina could be given that we were at a distance from the
18 border with Serbia. So we wanted to see what their opinion of that
19 subject was and whether it would be possible to find a satisfactory
20 solution for those Serbs who were really threatened. They were very far
21 away. They were to the west of the border, and we wanted to see what
22 their fate would be.
23 He must have had more information than we did.
24 Q. Were you also interested to see whether Milosevic was prepared to
25 lend support, financial and military, if necessary, to the Bosnian Serbs?
1 A. No, we did not discuss the military or financial support at the
2 time. We discussed the general support to the Serbian People, which was
3 separated from the rest. It was not our task to discuss military aid. It
4 was our task to see what the -- our destiny might be and inform the
5 Autonomous Region of Krajina, that is, the Assembly of the Autonomous
6 Region of Krajina, about that. We did not discuss either military or
7 financial decisions in that respect.
8 Q. All right. Well, I want to show you now, please, a report in
9 Sloboda Bosna. It's a disclosure, 2.468. So it's a new document.
10 MS. KORNER: Mr. Ackerman, if you haven't got it, perhaps you'd
11 let us know. And that will be Exhibit 2700. What has Mr. Radic been
12 given, the English or the B/C/S?
13 Q. Just have a quick read through it. And then I just want to ask
14 you a couple of questions.
15 A. Just give me a moment, please.
16 My name is mentioned in only one place here. I can't see anywhere
17 that I said something or that I was on the team with these people.
18 Q. Wait, Mr. Radic. It says that -- under the headline or the
19 subheadline: "Helicopter raid on Belgrade." Do you see your name as part
20 of the six-member delegation that went to see Mr. Milosevic?
21 A. Yes, I've said that I was on that team.
22 Q. Right. But then the article goes on to describe the divergence of
23 opinion within the Bosnian Krajina as to what course to take. And if you
24 find that part in the article where it says: "Maybe the closest to the
25 present view of Belgrade is the third or middle way, whose concept of
1 regionalisation was rejected at the Sarajevo Assembly. The promoter of
2 this option is Predrag Radic, with his collaborators, Professor Lazarevic
3 and Dr. Jaksic, some of whom will very probably take up better, higher
4 positions in the hierarchy of the Bosnian Krajina SDS or autonomous
6 Do you see that part?
7 A. Yes, I am looking at it, and it says here: "The first and the
8 most radical one." Here I can't see anything. And I'm looking, and I'm
9 looking to see where it says the relationship between Banja Luka and
10 Sarajevo. Milosevic, Karadzic. I'm still looking for the place where it
11 says that Brdjanin, Grahovac -- where is it? Where did you find that?
12 Q. If you look, please, further on from what you're just reading,
13 "the first and most radical," and then the second, and then the third.
14 Your name appears as the promoter of the third option.
15 A. The third Yugoslavia, the second...
16 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is reading aloud.
17 MS. KORNER:
18 Q. Mr. Radic, please, you don't need to read it aloud. It's not very
19 difficult. Just look down the article until you see your name.
20 A. I can see the second line where it says Vukic, Kupresanin,
21 Brdjanin. Maybe I'm missing part of the article. I'm missing that third
22 option that you have just mentioned.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Just continue reading where you said you were
24 reading. And you will come across it. Just go on. But read to yourself
25 without letting us hear your voice.
1 MS. KORNER:
2 Q. All right, Mr. Radic, we're wasting time now. Have you found the
3 passage or not?
4 A. No, I haven't. I found the first one, the second one. And there
5 is no third one. Maybe I am simply missing that part. You have said that
6 it was a third mention, and that my name was mentioned next to it, but I
7 can't see it.
8 Q. All right, Mr. Radic. We'll check and we'll get another copy if
9 it has been cut off, but I want to move on because we're spending too much
10 time on this.
11 Do you agree with this, with what the article said, that there was
12 a divergence of opinion as to how the Krajinas should -- how the Bosnian
13 Krajina should exist within a Serbian State? First one that was being
14 pushed by Dr. Babic; the second, Dr. Vukic, Mr. Kupresanin, and Brdjanin;
15 and a third line, yours.
16 A. My approach was always very clear, and that was that joining the
17 two Krajinas together would be very dangerous because Croatia was
18 internationally recognised. And if that part was taken away from it and
19 joined with this second part, then that would be like an annexation.
20 Q. All right. Let's move on. Thank you. And we'll check to see
21 whether that article is, in fact, complete.
22 Now, I'd like you to look, please --
23 MR. ACKERMAN: If you'd like, I can assist, Ms. Korner. It's
24 directly under the photograph, the right-hand column directly under the
25 photograph about a third of the way down.
1 MS. KORNER: All right. Thank you, Mr. Ackerman, but I want to
2 move on. I think we've spent enough time on this.
3 Q. You can give that back, thank you, to the usher and I want you to
4 now look at the very next meeting. No, there's one in between. The
5 meeting on the 29th -- sorry, 24th of February, which is P32.
6 This was the meeting, and I have no doubt you must -- well, I have
7 no doubt. You recall, do you not, Mr. Radic, this meeting because this
8 was the meeting where the proposal was made that there should be a Krajina
10 A. Yes, that was one of the options.
11 Q. And you yourself spoke, if you look, please, under item 1 and said
12 words to the effect that it shouldn't be insinuated that anyone had
13 anything against Karadzic, but the provisions of the draft constitution of
14 the Serbian Republic were ridiculous. Do you see that?
15 A. No, I don't see it. Are we on page 4 or which page are we on
16 here? When you say, item 1, I'm looking at it, but I don't see.
17 Q. If you go down through the list of speakers, Brdjanin said quite a
18 lot. Then a man called Vojo Bukalo, Gvero, Kupresanin, and then yourself.
19 A. Predrag Radic said that one shouldn't insinuate that somebody had
20 anything against Karadzic, but that the solutions from the constitution of
21 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina are ridiculous, and he
22 advocated that some life should be added to this constitution so it should
23 become binding on all the cantons in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
24 Q. That is exactly what I read to you a moment ago. It is not
25 necessary for you to reread things. It's just taking up time.
1 At the end of this meeting, a conclusion was adopted. If you
2 look, please, under conclusion number 3, that's before the word
3 "conclusion," that "various municipalities," and we see them listed,
4 Banja Luka, Dubica, Gradiska, so on and so forth, "and parts of Krupa and
5 Bihac should be proclaimed a sovereign republic which will establish
6 relations directly with other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
7 Now, was that a solution with which you agreed?
8 A. I can't say whether I agreed or not.
9 Q. You mean you can't remember?
10 A. No.
11 Q. All right. And the last -- there was another conclusion which
12 concerned you; namely, that you, Kupresanin, and Erceg should go back
13 to -- or hold discussions with the representatives of the government of
14 the Republic of Serbia about delivery of oil derivatives and foodstuffs to
15 the autonomous region.
16 Item number 3, the newly constituted Serbian Municipalities
17 joining the autonomous region. And then finally, at the very end,
18 decision, please, can you look at that. "To send a memorandum about the
19 genocide committed against the Serbian People to the Assembly of the
20 Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina was adopted unanimously." Can we
21 take it from that that you voted for it if it was unanimous?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, we don't have the relevant part of the text
23 on the monitor.
24 MS. KORNER: It's over the page, yes. Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this was to be sent to the
1 United Nations, the memorandum about the genocide committed against the
2 Serbian People, and this was adopted unanimously, yes.
3 MS. KORNER:
4 Q. And what was the purpose, as you say, of sending this to the
5 United Nations about the genocide of the Serbian People?
6 A. To inform the United Nations about that.
7 Q. And what genocide were you talking about? In World War II?
8 A. Amongst other things, yes, because at that time there was -- the
9 war had not started yet. Yes, to inform the United Nations about that
10 particular genocide, yes.
11 Q. I see. All right.
12 And finally -- not quite finally, but -- before we move to the
13 next assembly meeting, could you have a look, now, please at Exhibit P34.
14 Those -- this is a transcript of a meeting of the club of deputies
15 on the 28th of February 1992. I know you were not a deputy, Mr. Radic,
16 but did you attend any of the meetings of the club of deputies?
17 A. No. I can see that the -- this took place in Holiday Inn, and I
18 wasn't there. Actually, I was there for a very, very brief time, and then
19 I left because I was not given the floor and that's when I decided to walk
20 away. It was almost midnight. I believe this was one of the last
21 meetings that was held in the Sarajevo territory in February. Yes, now I
22 can see it.
23 Q. All right. So you were there for part of the time, but they
24 wouldn't let you speak, so you left. That's what you're saying, is it?
25 A. Yes, that's exactly what I said.
1 Q. And the whole discussion was about, wasn't it, what you in the
2 assembly in the Krajina had decided about this republic of the Krajina,
3 wasn't it?
4 A. I would like to refresh my memory, but I believe that this was the
5 preparation for the walking out of the Serbian deputies from the
6 Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
7 Q. Well, they had already left, but never mind that. I want to ask
8 you, please, because it's a long document --
9 A. I can't remember.
10 Q. I want to ask you about some of the things that were said and see
11 whether you heard them. Could you find the speech, please, of
12 Mr. Kelecevic. In the English, it's at page 18.
13 A. Which page?
14 Q. In English, page 18. I can't help you, I'm afraid, in the Serbian
15 document. I think it might be better if you give it to me and I'll find
17 THE INTERPRETER: Witness is reading out names.
18 MS. KORNER: He's found it.
19 Q. It's the speech after -- there's Kasagic, after Kupresanin, and
20 then Mr. Kelecevic. Do you see that? Did you know Mr. Kelecevic?
21 A. Yes, I knew him.
22 Q. Did you hear him say this: "My demand to my colleagues, the
23 deputies, is that we distance ourselves from the statements of Mr.
24 Radoslav Brdjanin.
25 "Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin is causing a lot of damage to the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 deputies. He stated that we act in bad taste, that we do not act as
2 befits deputies. Yesterday in Oslobodenje, he called for a vote of no
3 confidence for the deputies from Krajina. Has he been manipulated and who
4 has manipulated him, I don't know." And then he talks about Brdjanin
5 managing to push the deputies at the assembly session to vote on what we
6 voted on.
7 Now, that was a reference back, wasn't it, to declare the republic
8 of the Krajina?
9 A. I must say that I can't remember, and I couldn't remember before I
10 read everything that Mr. Kelecevic said about Mr. Brdjanin.
11 Q. All right. Could you give me the document because I want to ask
12 you about one other speech that was made and I'll find it for you.
13 Here. Would you look, please, at Mr. Kontic.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this is page 28 in the English version.
15 Q. Did you know Mr. Marinko Kontic?
16 A. I believe that this gentleman was from Kljuc, if I'm not mistaken.
17 Q. All right.
18 A. I didn't know him that well. But I believe that he comes from
20 Q. All right. Well, one of the things he said in his speech was
21 this: "The main problem in Banja Luka, and I will tell you who the people
22 who need to be marked are, the president of the municipality, Radic, and
23 Mr. Brdjanin, whom I have feared from day one."
24 Do you have any idea what would have made Mr. Kontic say that?
25 A. Can I please read it? Does it say that anywhere here?
1 Will you please tell me --
2 Q. It's the sixth --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Sixth paragraph. I was going to tell him that. Is
4 Marinko Kontic a witness for the Defence, Mr. Ackerman? Is he one of your
6 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think so, Your Honour.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Banja Luka, those who are not in
8 our party are giving us problems. Is that that?
9 MS. KORNER:
10 Q. Yes. You don't have to read it out. I just want to ask you if
11 you have any reason to know why Mr. Kontic should have said that you and
12 Mr. Brdjanin were the main problem in Banja Luka?
13 A. Again, I can't see my name here. Where is my name mentioned as
14 being one of the main problems?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have an extra copy of the B/C/S version,
17 MS. KORNER: Could I have it back and I'll mark it. I can't mark
18 the original. I'll point it out.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I have the English one as well.
20 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. I want the bit that -- I don't think this
21 is it. I want the bit that he's looking at.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We're never going to finish like this.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour is right.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't have a copy of the B/C/S.
25 MS. KORNER: Can you just... Thank you.
1 Q. We've just marked it for you, your name and Mr. Brdjanin,
2 Mr. Radic. Are you telling us you still can't see it?
3 A. Yes, I can. Yes, I can. I can see it. But it says here the main
4 problem is me. Why me? Probably I did not agree with him on something.
5 And later on, it says that Mr. Brdjanin is also one of the problems. I
6 have feared him from day one. And he doesn't say why he feared
7 Mr. Brdjanin. But he does say that he had a few clashes with him. What
8 clashes, I don't know. I must say that I did not have any clashes with
9 this guy Kontic. Why does he consider me to be the main problem in Banja
10 Luka? I really would be curious to have that clarified by him.
11 Q. So you're saying you can think of no reason why Mr. Kontic should
12 have said that about you. That's your answer, is it?
13 A. I don't know why I am his main problem. I'm sorry that I left the
14 assembly. If I had heard him say that, I'm sure that I would have replied
15 to him. Probably I did not allow him to do something in Banja Luka that
16 he expected would be allowed. He was a deputy, and I suppose he expected
17 that he could do in Banja Luka what he could do in Kljuc or I don't know
18 where that was. But that's another story.
19 Q. All right. Thank you. You can give that document back to the
20 usher now. And finally on the topic of the assemblies, and then we can
21 move on to something else, could you have P35.
22 Now, that's the extract of the meeting that followed the deputies'
23 club meeting on the 28th. The deputies' club meeting on the 28th. On the
24 29th, Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Koljevic, and Mr. Ostojic came to
25 the assembly meeting. And do you recall this particular meeting, Mr.
1 Radic, where effectively the assembly knuckled under and dispensed with
2 the idea of a Krajina republic?
3 A. These are assemblymen. And this is the minutes of the Assembly of
4 the Autonomous Region of Krajina which was held on the 29th February in
5 the great hall of the Banja Luka cultural centre, beginning at 1100 hours,
6 and so on and so forth. I remember that they knuckled under, and that
7 this subject, and particularly the constitution that I had the opportunity
8 to see here, was no longer on the agenda. In simple terms, this was
9 disallowed. The establishment was disallowed.
10 Q. Absolutely. So you clearly remember this. Now, I want to ask you
11 about the conclusions. The first conclusion, if you can find that,
12 please, was to this effect: "The deputies accepted the constitution of
13 the Republic of the Serbian People in full."
14 Then the status of the Autonomous Region of Krajina will be
15 incorporated in the constitution of the republic. And then this, I want
16 to ask you about this one: "Establish immediately strict control of the
17 territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina." What does that refer to?
18 A. What does control refer to? If something is part of Krajina, then
19 it is obvious that there must be some sort of control. Everything that is
20 to be discussed at the Assembly of AR Krajina, this should be the subject
21 of control. I can't tell you exactly what had to be controlled, but they
22 probably thought it was necessary to introduce some form of control in the
23 ARK. I can't tell you what it concerns exactly.
24 Q. I'm sorry --
25 A. I have to say that here they adopted a constitution which was in
1 accordance with the constitution of Republika Srpska, the constitution of
2 the Serbian People. That's what it says in the first conclusion.
3 Q. I'm not asking about that.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 MS. KORNER: Sorry.
6 Q. I'm not asking you about the first. It's the third one. What
7 does it mean: "Establish immediately strict control of the territory"?
8 A. I really don't know. "Strict control," controlling the
9 functioning, because it's obvious that up until then there was no control
10 of the functioning of the municipalities in the ARK. That's perhaps what
11 it concerns. But I really don't know what the subject of control was.
12 Q. Wasn't it this: Let's look at the obvious, logical thing. That
13 it was to take control of territories which had large populations of
14 non-Serb, wasn't it?
15 A. Where does it say so? Does it say that only non-Serbs had to be
16 controlled? I can't see that here.
17 Q. I'm sorry. No, it doesn't say that, Mr. Radic. But that's what
18 it meant, didn't it? That's what I'm asking you.
19 A. You're making assumptions, and I can't confirm such assumptions on
20 this basis.
21 Q. I am making assumption which I am asking you as a person present
22 at this meeting, whether that assumption is correct.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, he's answered that twice now, I think.
24 He said he's --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he's avoiding to answer. Let him answer.
1 Because I am pretty sure that the witness knows that this third decision,
2 or second or third, is the one out of three that were taken on that day,
3 and they are all inter-related, so one follows the other, and this happens
4 to be the last one.
5 So given the first -- the previous decisions -- yes, Mr. Ackerman.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: But he's already answered, Your Honour. "You're
7 making assumptions and I can't confirm such assumptions on this basis." I
8 guess he can say that again.
9 MS. KORNER: No.
10 Q. I'm asking -- leave aside the word "assumption." I am asking you,
11 Mr. Radic, as a person who was present whether, in fact, this did not
12 relate to seizing control of territories within the Krajina that had large
13 populations of non-Serbs? Yes or no or I can't remember?
14 A. I can't remember. But I would say that controlling the political
15 and security situation in the ARK, which is the first item on the agenda,
16 I think that this would have been a subject of incessant control. And
17 we're still talking about the period prior to the war itself.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Radic. Let me ask you a very simple
19 question: Does decision number 3 say "establish immediately strict
20 control on the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina" or "of the
21 territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina"?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Of the territory of the autonomous
23 region" that's what it says, in order to see what is happening in that
25 JUDGE AGIUS: "Strict control of the territory"? It doesn't say
1 "strict control of the organs of government or of institutions, or
2 whatever, in the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina." It says
3 "strict control of the territory" and I don't think that should confuse
4 you much.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says: "Establish strict control
6 of the territory of the autonomous region immediately" because beyond the
7 Sava, the Una, et cetera, fire had been opened -- fire had been directed
8 at the territory of the region. So crossings of the Una and the Sava,
9 that was the border between Croatia and ourselves, et cetera, so there had
10 to be control. That is the control of territory that is being referred
11 to, not people.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Does it actually mean take control of the territory?
13 Take control of the territory? Does it say?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Establish control, not take control.
15 Take it from whom?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: If you establish, you are going to establish control
17 of a territory, still the same question arises. Look at those three
18 decisions again, the first one, the second one, and the third one, because
19 one follows the other. And tell me whether what was suggested to you by
20 Ms. Korner in the beginning is actually what the only interpretation, only
21 meaning that you could give to that third paragraph, that third decision.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't interpret it in the sense
23 that people are to be controlled. The territory is to be controlled to
24 prevent incursions into that territory. I can't accept the idea that
25 people are to be controlled. And this can't be taken out of the context,
1 inferred from the context. The deputies of the assembly accepted their
2 constitution. It's not possible to take this out of context and say that
3 control is to be established over people. And I want to stress yet again
4 that at the time the war had not yet started.
5 MS. KORNER:
6 Q. I'm sorry. The war hadn't started, Mr. Radic, I agree with you.
7 But what I'm suggesting is this: What was going on already was planning
8 for the forceful takeover of municipalities. Now, is that right or is it
9 not right?
10 A. It wasn't necessary to do that in Banja Luka. Let me tell you so
11 immediately. As to what they were planning in other municipalities, don't
12 ask me about that because that wasn't within my competence.
13 Q. But the whole idea of the assembly of the autonomous region and
14 later the crisis staff, or one of the idea, was coordination between what
15 was to happen in municipalities. That's right, isn't it?
16 A. I'd like to see the conclusions from which such assumptions have
17 been made.
18 Q. I'm going to leave that subject, or just with one quick further
19 document. Can you look, please, now at P119, two documents, in fact.
20 It's a report in Glas about a press conference held after this assembly on
21 the 29th of February. And could you find the part under "the end of
22 dreams to become a ban" where you apparently said that the deputies "spat
23 on Banja Luka."
24 And then, please, read to yourself under the subheadline: "The
25 SDS is playing with black pieces," everything you are alleged to have
1 said, which is on page 2 of the English.
2 A. Yes, that was after a session of the assembly which had been
3 disrupted, so to speak.
4 Q. I just have one simple question. Did you say those things that
5 you are reported as saying in the Glas newspaper?
6 A. I'm trying to find what I said here, yes.
7 INTERPRETER: The witness is reading to himself again.
8 Q. Mr. Radic, don't read it aloud. Just read it yourself. And tell
9 me when you've read it.
10 A. Yes, there was a clash here.
11 Q. No, simple question. Did you say the things that Glas reported
12 you as saying? That's all I want you to say.
13 A. Well, I said several things here, not just one thing. Could you
14 tell me what you are referring to?
15 Q. Is there anything there --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there anything there --
17 MS. KORNER:
18 Q. -- That you didn't say?
19 A. Well, you know, it's difficult for me to tell you. What I said
20 has probably been recorded.
21 Q. All right. It's right, isn't it, that by and large Glas
22 accurately recorded what was said at press conferences and in the
24 A. By and large, yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Right. That's all I want to ask you about those
1 assembly meetings. But I want to ask one final question: Why did you
2 tell us in interview in Banja Luka that you were not a member of the
3 Autonomous Region of Krajina Assembly?
4 A. Is this the document you're referring to, the one you've shown me?
5 Q. No.
6 MS. KORNER: Usher, can you take the document away.
7 Q. I want you to look, because otherwise you'll ask me to show it to
8 you, you'll see it on the screen, but we can give you the B/C/S version as
9 well, at page 21 of the B/C/S version of your first interview.
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I think it's on the screen.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it is, Ms. Korner.
12 MS. KORNER:
13 Q. You were asked this: "I want to know - and this is in the English
14 at line 13 and in the B/C/S at line 16 - I want to know if you are telling
15 us that at the same time as the crisis staff was in existence, so was the
16 regional assembly."
17 "I couldn't tell you that for sure," was your reply. "You'll
18 need to find that in the documents." "Mr. Radic, you at the time were in
19 Banja Luka. You were a member of the crisis staff, you were also a member
20 of the assembly, were you not?" "I was not a member of the assembly."
21 And I'm going to ask now that you look, please, at the next page,
22 page 21, which is page 22 in the Serbian version, where the part that's in
23 the crisis staff gazettes about the work of the autonomous region has the
24 absolute support, at line 20, was put to you. And the question was: "Mr.
25 Radic, do you agree on the 26th of May the assembly was not functioning?"
1 "When was this done," you asked. Question: "On the 26th of May when
2 this was issued, the assembly was not functioning." Again, you said, "I'd
3 like to see the chronology of how the assembly was closed and how this was
4 established because I was not in the assembly. I was not in the
5 government, so I couldn't tell you."
6 And on one last occasion, page 49 of the interview in English, and
7 it's page 51 in B/C/S, if we can put those up, the question at line 19 in
8 the English of page 49: "The regional assembly did not meet after April
9 of 1992, did it?" And you said: "That would be very difficult for me to
10 confirm, but it's very strange that the executive body would be meeting.
11 I mean, who did they answer to seeing that it's the executive body of the
12 assembly." Question: "I'm asking you if you were aware that they did not
13 meet." Your answer: "No I was not a member of the assembly. I was not a
14 member of the executive committee or whatever you want to call it because
15 simply I was not elected into it."
16 Now, on no less than three occasions during your interview in
17 Banja Luka, you told us you were not a member of the regional assembly.
18 Why did you do that? Apparently there was a fourth, but never mind. Why
19 did you tell us in Banja Luka in 2001 that you were not a member of the
20 regional assembly, but in actual fact as we've just seen you played a
21 major part in the proceedings?
22 A. I'll repeat this, what we read in the newspaper a minute ago.
23 That's what we wanted to do. But if you're asking me about the assembly
24 that was established and the executive committee which was also elected, I
25 wasn't a member of the executive committee of the assembly of ARK. I
1 didn't attend those sessions, and I wasn't elected. And they didn't elect
2 me, although I had been proposed as a minister for agriculture.
3 Q. Are you telling us that your saying you were not a member of the
4 assembly on three or four occasions was simply meant to indicate that you
5 were not a member of the executive council or the government?
6 A. I wasn't a member of the government.
7 Q. I'll try one more time. Why did you tell us - nothing to do with
8 the government - that you were not a member of the assembly itself?
9 A. By virtue of my position, I had been proposed as a member of the
10 assembly, as the president of the municipal assembly. But I didn't attend
11 those assembly sessions. I didn't even come when I was supposed to be
12 elected as the minister of agriculture for the ARK. That's a fact.
13 Q. I suggest to you, Mr. Radic, you denied that you were a member of
14 the assembly to us in Banja Luka because you knew that that assembly was
15 planning the beginnings of the takeovers, the crimes, in the Autonomous
16 Region of Krajina.
17 A. I'd like to see where I said that I recognised that it would be an
18 organ that would prepare to commit crimes. I'd like to see that.
19 Q. I'm not going to pursue this point any longer.
20 MS. KORNER: All right. I want to move, Your Honour, to a
21 different topic. I know, perhaps, it's a little early, but if we could
22 take the break now.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we'll have a 20-minute break starting from now.
24 We'll resume at 5 to 4.00. Thank you.
25 --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Radic, I think I need to make it clear to
3 you that if we continue proceeding at this slow pace, you'll probably
4 still be here Wednesday of next week. So I suggest you take the advice I
5 gave you on the first day, don't go around in circles. Just answer the
6 questions that are put to you. Most of them have been questions that only
7 required a yes or no answer. Because otherwise, I mean, we will be here.
8 It's only two other witnesses that have scheduled for next week will
9 probably stay waiting. But I'm not going to stop Ms. Korner. So I
10 suggest that you take my advice, and you be concise and precise in your
11 answers so that we can send you home end of this week.
12 Ms. Korner.
13 MS. KORNER: Could you shown, please, Exhibit -- I'm sorry, it's a
14 new disclosure. 2.583.
15 Q. Mr. Radic, this is a document signed by Mr. Blagojevic with the
16 stamp of the assembly of the autonomous region. It's dated 21st of March.
17 It's addressed to -- the translation says the chairman, but I imagine it's
18 the president of the Serbian Democratic Party, president of the executive
19 council of the municipal assembly, president of the municipal assembly,
20 and members of the main board of Bosnia-Herzegovina SDS. So you qualified
21 under two heads, as president of the municipal assembly and a member of
22 the main board.
23 "Please note that your presence is obligatory at the session of the
24 main board of the BH Serbian Democratic Party. The session will be held
25 at 1700 hours on the 23rd of March 1992 in Sarajevo. You must bring along
1 a geographical map of your municipality with the national boundaries and
2 the decision on accession into the Autonomous Region of Krajina."
3 First, do you remember getting this document?
4 MS. KORNER: Which, Your Honour, I think will be P2701.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it 270 -- yeah, okay.
6 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'd like to you inquire how long the
8 OTP has had this document, why it was not disclosed in disclosure under
9 Rule 66. And if there's not a good explanation, then I object to its
10 being used at all.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.
12 MS. KORNER: I can't possibly give an explanation, Your Honour. I
13 don't know how -- where this document comes from at the moment or how we
14 got it. I think the answer is under what head should it have been
15 disclosed. We weren't going to use it before, and I don't think we were.
16 We didn't have to disclose it. So I mean -- sorry, Mr. Ackerman. I'm
17 slightly taken aback by the objection. But we did not intend to use this
18 document at the stage during the Prosecution case. Therefore, I assume it
19 wasn't disclosed. But as to how long we've had, or where it comes from,
20 at the moment I can't say.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: The disclosure requirements of the Prosecutor have
22 nothing to do with whether they intend to use a document or not, Your
23 Honour. That's only the Defence requirements. It's clearly helpful to
24 the presentation of the Defence. Falls clearly within Rule 66, and it
25 should have been turned over.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Under which part of the 66, Mr. Ackerman?
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Judge, I don't have the rule in front of me. It
3 might be 66(C).
4 JUDGE AGIUS: 66(C) is when the Prosecution can ask the Trial
5 Chamber for exemption.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: I'd have to look at the rules. I don't know the
7 rules off the top of my head.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar or usher, you can give the rules to
9 Mr. Ackerman. I think Ms. Korner is right, if it's not a document.
10 Anyway, have a look at 66. And in the meantime, Ms. Korner can find out
11 when -- what's the origin of -- wasn't even used in the --
12 MR. ACKERMAN: 66(B), Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: But read it.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: "The Prosecution shall on request permit the
15 Defence to inspect any books, documents, photographs, and tangible objects
16 in the Prosecutor's custody and control which are material to the
17 preparation of the Defence."
18 JUDGE AGIUS: If you make a request for it.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: I did. I made a request under Rule 66(B) for
20 disclosure, and it triggered reciprocal. So she had to turn all this
21 over. And they did, they gave us thousands and thousands and thousands of
22 pages of documents that they never intended to use, but they were in the
23 Prosecutor's view helpful to the presentation of the Defence. And I can
24 show you, I must have 40.000 pages of material that they have not ever
25 used and never will.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you exclude that you have this as well?
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah, I know I don't have this.
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I say that the request was specific,
4 as it had to be. We were asked to provide, and did, the documents seized
5 from the Banja Luka buildings; namely, the municipal CSB 1st Krajina
6 Corps. That was a specific request. I mean, clearly, 66(B) doesn't
7 entitle you to say "everything that you've got." You have to be specific.
8 And those were the requests made. I think -- I'm rather thinking this
9 comes from one of the collections. But Your Honour, I don't know. We
10 could spend a lot of time on this. I don't mind, because it's a lead-in
11 to another document.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: For the moment, I think we ought to go ahead. I
13 don't agree with you, Mr. Ackerman, or at least with the interpretation
14 you have given to 66(B) even if you made a request.
15 MS. KORNER: All right.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Unless you were given the opportunity to inspect,
17 and I underline the word "inspect" and this was hidden from you. If that
18 is the case, yes, we have something to discuss. But if it's not the case,
19 I think we ought not to lose time on it now, and I reserve your position
20 until later.
21 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
23 MS. KORNER:
24 Q. Sorry, Mr. Radic, after that interruption, did you get this
1 A. I have never taken any maps to any meetings at this place referred
2 to in here, which means that either I did not receive this letter or -- in
3 any case, I didn't take a map with me. It is possible that the president
4 of the municipal board had one on him, but I didn't have a map on me.
5 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Radic. Are you saying that you in Banja Luka
6 didn't receive a copy of this letter, though you qualified under two
8 A. I didn't get it, otherwise I would have had to bring a map. And
9 if I'd done that, I would have remembered it.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. I would have remembered taking a map to a meeting.
12 Q. All right. But attend a meeting, then, on the 23rd of March,
13 whether you took a map or not, in Sarajevo at the SDS club?
14 A. Only once was I there, during the elections. When that was, I
15 can't remember.
16 Q. All right. Well, I'd like you to have a look, please, at a
17 document, P26.
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I take it that document is
19 temporarily exhibited until such time as Mr. Ackerman has decided what he
20 wants to do?
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I've made my objection. I don't
22 think I need to go beyond it.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.
24 MS. KORNER:
25 Q. These are the minutes of the 12th session of the Assembly of the
1 Serbian People held in Pale on the 24th of March.
2 A. In English.
3 Q. No, you should have them in the Serbian language.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Turn the page just in case it's on the back.
5 MS. KORNER:
6 Q. All right. First question is, did you go?
7 A. Allow me to just briefly look at this document to --
8 Q. Certainly.
9 A. -- Refresh my memory.
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, while the witness is doing that, we've
11 done a check. We acquired the document in Bihac on the 8th of October
12 1995. So it wouldn't have been included, Your Honour, I make that
13 absolutely clear, in the documents that Mr. Ackerman made an application
14 for under 66(B). As to why we haven't disclosed it before or used it, I
15 can't say.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just want to make sure --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not the only one.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: I made a special application because of the
19 seizures that they did, to have those materials, even though they probably
20 didn't fall under 66(B). The basis of that request was that since they
21 had removed all the documents that I would have in the course of my
22 investigation tried to find myself, that they became the repository of
23 those documents, and therefore they were the only source for me to look at
24 that material. That's a totally different thing from a Rule 66 request
25 for materials in the possession of the Prosecutor helpful to the
1 preparation of the Defence. And that was clearly -- that was made very
2 clear at the time, and huge, huge, disclosure, as you know, because I
3 would show you piles, was made under Rule 66(B) to me because of that
4 request. And this should have been part of it. They've had it since
5 1995, and it clearly is relevant to this case.
6 MS. KORNER: I don't think I can say anything further myself, Your
7 Honour. I don't agree with Mr. Ackerman's interpretation, but I don't
8 think it's -- of what he asked for, but I don't think it's helpful to
9 rehash all the old history. That's the situation. It wasn't apparently
10 disclosed, and we've now got it.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: But this is on the face of it a document which isn't
12 going to change much. But I don't want to come across a document later on
13 which can be fundamentally important and which was similarly not
14 disclosed. So --
15 MS. KORNER: I'd love to be able to say, Your Honour, it won't
16 happen, but I really -- I can't. But we did -- all I can say, is we have
17 done our level best to comply with all our disclosure obligations. But
18 obviously this document or the reason for it wasn't appreciated at the
19 time. It doesn't directly relate to Mr. Brdjanin.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it doesn't. And that's until the rule that
21 Mr. Ackerman is basing himself upon remains as it is.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, as I say, I don't --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: So.
24 MS. KORNER: All right. As I say, I think I've said all I can say
25 on it, and if I can perhaps leave it to Your Honours and Mr. Ackerman if
1 you wish to take the matter further.
2 Q. Mr. Radic, you've obviously been given an opportunity to look
3 through it. Did you attend this session?
4 A. I was never invited to the sessions of the People's Assembly of
5 Republika Srpska. It would be deputies who would go there.
6 Q. All right. Because you see, one of the things that was said,
7 again, the verification of the -- well, there were two things. It's pages
8 22 and 23 of the English. If you give me, please, the Serbian version,
9 usher, otherwise we're going to be here for a long time.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I would just like to make the
12 observation that the tenor of events in this courtroom today has been that
13 these problems are all Mr. Radic's fault. And if the Prosecution had
14 taken these B/C/S documents and marked the place they want Mr. Radic to
15 look at, we would have moved much faster. This process of having to spend
16 five or six or eight minutes while they try to find the part in the B/C/S
17 they want him to look at is what's taking up an enormous amount of time
18 here. And if we're here until Monday, that would just be outrageous, I
20 MS. KORNER:
21 Q. Yes, could you have a look, please, at this page of the document.
22 It's the end of Dr. Karadzic's speech at this session where he was
23 discussing the police force. And do you see the following words: "How to
24 separate the police force, take the resources that belong to the Serbian
25 people and take command. The police must be under the control of the
1 civilian authority. It must obey it. There is no discussion about that.
2 That's the way it must be."
3 It's on page 22 of the English. Do you see those words?
4 A. Yes. Yes. How to separate the police force.
5 Q. One of the things that was discussed, wasn't it, in the assembly
6 of the autonomous region and in the assembly at the republic level was how
7 there was to be a new Serbian MUP and how the municipalities, which were
8 not Serb controlled, should control the police force? That's right, isn't
10 A. Yes, that is what I read here.
11 Q. And that was clear, wasn't it? The police at all levels had to
12 come under the control of the civilian authority?
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the document doesn't say that at all.
14 If Ms. Korner is referring to the document, it doesn't say that. The army
15 and the police and everybody at the top had a civilian control. I mean,
16 that's the way governments work.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, you shouldn't have intervened.
18 MS. KORNER: I really do object to objections that give the
19 witness the answer. The question I asked was a very clear one.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Please repeat it, Ms. Korner. And the witness needs
21 to have a look again at those three, four lines and give us his answer.
22 MS. KORNER:
23 Q. Now, the question I'm asking you, Mr. Radic, is this: That at the
24 top and at the SJB level, the police came under the control of the
25 civilian authority. At the top, the republic controlling the MUP; at the
1 bottom, the municipality assemblies controlling the police.
2 A. That is not correct.
3 Q. You don't agree with that. All right.
4 A. I don't, indeed.
5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Radic, we can move on. And I now want to deal
6 with the arrival of the SOS. You've already looked --
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I would just like to because of my
8 objection, and I was a bit criticised for making it, I think it should be
9 made clear to the Chamber that this same question was asked of Mr. Radic
10 over and over during the Prosecutor's interview with him, and he
11 repeatedly said the police were not under any civilian control.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I object to that comment as well.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, it's passed. The topic --
15 MS. KORNER: I'm going to be returning --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Ms. Korner had accused me of giving him the answer,
18 but it was an answer that he had given many times before during his
19 interview with the Prosecution. So I didn't give him the answer --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, what happened during the interview, I
21 don't know because I wasn't there. It doesn't seem to me however that at
22 that particular part the witness was faced or shown the document that he
23 had in front of him, and he still has in front of him, and that certainly
24 could have changed the situation completely.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour -- I don't think --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's forget it for the time being and let's move
2 ahead, Ms. Korner.
3 MS. KORNER:
4 Q. The document that you had, Mr. Radic, can go, and it has now gone.
5 You've already looked with Mr. Ackerman at the demands that were made by
6 this group called the SOS. Now, do you agree, Mr. Radic, that the SOS
7 arrived in Banja Luka on the morning of the 3rd of April, surrounded the
8 municipal building, and set up barricades in various parts of Banja Luka?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you agree that these men were armed?
11 A. They were.
12 Q. Do you agree that they wore some kind of paramilitary military?
13 A. Some of them, yes. Some of them, no. Some wore uniforms; some
14 didn't. Some even wore civilian hats on their heads.
15 Q. Do you agree that these men were thugs?
16 A. Yes, some of them were thugs, yes. There were thugs amongst them.
17 Q. They were criminals? They included known criminals in their
19 A. I wouldn't say -- I didn't say they were criminals. Their
20 behaviour was dodgy and they were of a low morale. Whether they were
21 criminals, I wouldn't dare say that.
22 Q. Well, you were asked about this in the interviews in Banja Luka,
23 in both interviews. And if I can just find my note on that.
24 Yes, on page 63 of the first interview, and it's page 64 in the
25 B/C/S, and we'll put it up on the screen. Usher, can you give -- what
1 have you put up there, the B/C/S version? Give it to the witness.
2 All right. At line 25 of the English, page 63, same version of
3 the same question: "They were armed and were paramilitaries. Is that
4 correct?" "I cannot call them anything military because they were not
5 military. They were just thugs."
6 A. I used the word "aroba" [phoen] which would equal "thugs."
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. Maybe robbers.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter apologises, does not understand word
10 in B/C/S.
11 MS. KORNER:
12 Q. We may have a slight problem. But anyhow, thugs, robbers,
13 whatever. And then they issued these demands, Mr. Radic?
14 A. Yes, ma'am.
15 Q. Which, as we saw from the article in the newspaper, were accepted
16 by you as the mayor of Banja Luka. Is that right?
17 A. Not all of them were accepted. Not all of them could be accepted.
18 How could I accept to talk to the army, that is, to the main staff of the
19 army of Yugoslavia and so on and so forth?
20 Q. I'm going to come on to each individual demand in a moment. You
21 accepted those that you could accept. Is that correct?
22 A. I would like to see all of the demands one by one, and then I
23 would be able to tell you which demands I accepted, which I couldn't
24 accept, because I can't remember all of the things that were demanded.
25 Q. Can I tell you, I'm going to get back to it, but you actually went
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 through each and every demand with Mr. Ackerman during your evidence on, I
2 believe, the -- yes, the first day -- it was virtually the first day you
3 were asked by Mr. Ackerman. And from page 7 of the LiveNote, quite a long
4 way through. So you did go through it, but I'm going to take you back.
5 You did accept some of the demands. Can you take it from me
6 that's what you told us?
7 A. What could be accepted, I accepted. We accepted that we would
8 investigate whether there was any crime in the municipality, that I would
9 go and talk to the main staff of the army of Yugoslavia, that I guaranteed
10 that the law on this or that would be implemented. I can't remember all
11 of the demands, but whatever was acceptable we accepted.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Radic.
13 A. I would like you to remind me of those demands first.
14 Q. I will. But I want you to answer one simple question first: Why
15 did you accept any of the demands from this band of armed criminals?
16 A. Well, did I have any choice?
17 Q. Mr. Radic, why didn't you call in the army and the police?
18 A. I said that at the time, the army and the police, the army was
19 regrouping for the corridor, and the police was aware of that. The police
20 should have intervened. I can ask the police to do something, but I
21 wasn't in a position to give them any orders.
22 Q. But you didn't even ask the police to do anything, did you?
23 A. The police was aware of what was happening in the town.
24 Q. No, answer the question I asked you, please. Did you ask the
25 police to --
1 A. I don't remember. Perhaps I did ask them to come and intervene.
2 But it's obvious that there was no intervention because they had blocked
3 the radio station and all the institutions. They were blocked,
4 crossroads, the roads, the checkpoints that had been set up, et cetera.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm told that 43, line 12 where it
7 says: "That I would go and talk to the main staff of the army of
8 Yugoslavia" what he really said was: "How could I go and talk to the main
9 staff of the army of Yugoslavia?" In other words, he saying he didn't do
10 it I think because he didn't have the authority to do it. That's what I'm
11 told he said.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm perfectly happy for Mr. Ackerman to
13 correct something like this, but not to add on why he thinks he said it.
14 Your Honour, I agree, but that could have been corrected when we get to
15 the tape being checked because that's what we all heard him say.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you're both right.
17 MS. KORNER:
18 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, why didn't you go and say to Mr. Zupljanin or to
19 Mr. Tutus "Why are you not doing something to clear these criminals"?
20 A. They were informed of their presence. So I wasn't in a position
21 to give the police any orders. They could have received an order
22 according to the chain of command to deal with it. I couldn't give the
23 orders. Municipal representatives didn't give the police orders, either
24 before the war, during the war, or after the war. They were well aware of
25 what was happening.
1 Q. And you keep on saying that, Mr. Radic. For the moment, let's
2 take it as you say, that you couldn't give orders to the police. Are you
3 telling us that you couldn't say to Mr. Zupljanin or any of the other
4 people that I have named "Why are you not doing anything about these men?
5 Contact your superiors in Pale"?
6 A. They were informed. I informed them of what was happening. And
7 as to what they would go on to do, I don't know about that. I don't know
8 what they did afterwards.
9 Q. All right. Wasn't the truth that this was an SDS-planned
10 incursion into Banja Luka? That's why nobody did anything about it.
11 A. I don't know. I already said who -- I've already said on several
12 occasions that I don't know who organised all of them.
13 Q. Right. But it was absolutely clear, wasn't it, that this wasn't
14 some, as it were, lawless band of men suddenly arriving; this was an
15 orchestrated action?
16 A. They had someone's support, but I don't know whose because I don't
17 know. But they must have had someone's support. As they blocked the
18 municipal assembly, the radio, and everything else, given these blockades,
19 they must have had someone's support.
20 Q. And the army did nothing?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And the police did nothing?
23 A. I think that at a meeting when they were making their requests, I
24 think there were police representatives there, and I think that there is a
25 list of the persons who attended that meeting.
1 Q. Why did you agree to go on to this crisis staff that was -- that
2 they asked for?
3 A. The crisis staff was their main condition for entering the
4 municipal assembly of Banja Luka and the Assembly of the ARK. That was
5 their request. They had to have their representatives there. Why did I
6 accept that? Well, that's one of the reasons. And why the assembly
7 accepted that, that's something else.
8 Q. No, I want to know why you personally agreed to go on a crisis
9 staff demanded by this band of thugs rather than refusing?
10 A. There weren't that many of them there. You can see that on the
11 list. You can see how many of them were in that crisis staff. There were
12 people who were reliable in that crisis staff, so to speak. If you have a
13 look at the list, I can tell you who they were. There are one or two of
14 these people.
15 Q. The list that we've already been through included one of the top
16 representatives of the army, Colonel, later General Kelecevic. That's
17 right, isn't it?
18 A. Yes, he was also on the list of those who were requested to be in
19 the crisis staff. There were some judges, and there were other prominent
20 people from the town of Banja Luka.
21 Q. Absolutely. And what I want to know from you, Mr. Radic, as a
22 member of this crisis staff and as a person who was there, was why all
23 these top-level people agreed to go on a crisis staff demanded by these
25 A. You know, someone had to calm [Realtime transcript read in error
1 "come down"] them down. It was better for such people to be there,
2 rather than having people brought in from the street and taken to the
3 crisis staff. Their action gradually diminished in strength. All their
4 requests were quite simply not adopted.
5 Q. All right. Well, I'm going to go through those requests now. Can
6 you have, first of all, the list of requests which is Exhibit P134.
7 That's already an exhibit.
8 And then I'm going to ask you to have a look at another document.
9 MS. KORNER: And then, Your Honour, I'm going to, because this is
10 the best --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: 47, line is it 14? 47, line 4. He said: "You
13 know, someone had to calm them down," not "come down." I think that makes
14 a difference.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly.
16 Mr. Radic, have you heard Mr. Ackerman? Were you paying attention
17 to what he was saying?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, someone had to calm them down,
19 someone had to have the authority to do so.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: The transcript said that you had said something
21 different. So yes, Ms. Korner.
22 MS. KORNER:
23 Q. I'm going to show you what you said. It's not in the newspaper,
24 but it was taken down by -- on the radio.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this is 2326. And I'll have it put out
1 on the ELMO. It's part of Exhibit 2326, the diary dated the 3rd of April.
2 Hang on a minute, please.
3 And page 6 can go on to the ELMO in English, and I will find that
4 in the B/C/S version, I hope. Yes, here.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Radic --
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, just to be consistent, I'll make the
7 same objection I made yesterday, that she is using statements of witnesses
8 which I was not permitted to do.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: She is not using a statement of witnesses. This is
10 an exhibit.
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm using, because it's the best record
12 we have, the document which is an exhibit in this case which will --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, Ms. Korner. Please proceed. Your objection
14 has been recorded, put on record. I don't agree with you. This is an
15 exhibit that is being shown to the witness. It recounts on the face of it
16 the events that took place on those days, and he is going to be asked a
17 question. And you shouldn't even mention that this may have been used by
18 a witness.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have to make a proper objection.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it's -- you ought to be able to distinguish
21 between a document which is an exhibit, piece of evidence already from the
22 direct testimony of a witness, which cannot be put --
23 MR. ACKERMAN: If I made a transcript an exhibit, then I could ask
24 questions about what somebody said.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, of course not.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Because that's --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry. This is not a transcript of evidence.
3 This is documentation on which evidence was based.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: She is getting the same place through the back door
5 that she can't get through the front door, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't agree with you, Mr. Ackerman. Anyway, your
7 objection is put on record.
8 Ms. Korner, I don't need any explanations from you. Please
9 proceed with your question.
10 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Radic, did you go on to Banja Luka Radio to explain about the
12 SOS? Are you listening, Mr. Radic?
13 A. I don't remember. Please, refresh my memory. If it says so here,
14 then I must have gone there.
15 Q. Right.
16 A. They were blocking the radio. They wouldn't allow me to go.
17 Q. No. I'll show you -- Mr. Radic, we can spend a lot of time here,
18 but will you take it from me, you did go on Banja Luka Radio, you were
19 reported in the newspaper as saying so, and I'm saying this is a record of
20 what you actually said. Are you prepared to accept that, or do you want
21 to look at the newspaper?
22 A. Yes, now I see that it says at about 5.00, Radio Banja Luka
23 informed about the request of the SOS et cetera --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Radic, please, again, answer yes or no. It's as
25 simple as that.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. I don't remember.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: He doesn't remember.
3 MS. KORNER:
4 Q. If I show you a newspaper report, will you accept it from me that
5 you went on to Banja Luka Radio?
6 A. If it says that I was present, in that case, you'll refresh my
7 memory, and I can say yes. But I can't remember whether I went to the
8 radio or when I was there.
9 Q. All right. Well, I suggest you went on to the radio on the --
10 either the 3rd or the 4th. I think it's probably the 3rd.
11 Now, you began what you had to say, Mr. Radic, according to this
12 record of what you said, that "the SOS imposed a blockade and demanded
13 that the Banja Luka Crisis Staff be set up where the frontline fighters
14 could put forward their demands and of course the meeting of these demands
15 could be negotiated." And then you explained that the primary motive was
16 the letter that Mr. Doko had sent to the municipal assemblies. Do you
17 remember saying something like that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then you explained how you had formed the crisis staff, and
20 then you gave all the names of those people on the crisis staff.
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. I just want to ask about one more name. Nenad Stevandic was there
23 on behalf of the political structures. What political structures?
24 A. They had asked that Vukic be there for the SDS, and Nenad
25 Stevandic at the time must have been the president of the Serbian Sokol,
1 or something like that.
2 Q. Right. And then you went through each of the demands. Number 1,
3 and you can confirm them against the list of the demands, was that the
4 interior -- the law on interior affairs of the Serbian Republic be
5 implemented as soon as possible. And then you said there was an amendment
6 made on the territory of Banja Luka CSB, not only Banja Luka, but the
7 entire CSB, that the insignia be changed and that staff loyal to the
8 Serbian Republic of BH and Yugoslavia be appointed.
9 And then you said: "As this was the first amendment, as it was
10 initially requested, this be done on the territory of Bosanska Krajina
11 since this was implemented on the territory of Banja Luka, we have no
12 right to talk on behalf of Bosanska Krajina. This will probably be done
13 by the AR Krajina organs." Do you agree that you said that?
14 A. Those were their requests. I've stated what their requests were,
15 and that was -- that information was provided. It says that these were
16 their requests in the newspapers. I only relayed their requests.
17 Q. All right. But you were saying, this is the amendment we're
18 making. It can only be done in Banja Luka by us. For the rest of the
19 Krajina territory it will have to be done by the Krajina organs.
20 A. That's correct. Because there were representatives of the police
21 who said that they would implement what it said, what was stated in the
22 law. They had the law, and it was necessary to implement it. The
23 SNF Krajina would decide on who would implement it in Krajina.
24 Q. All right. Can we go on to demand number 2: "The supreme command
25 and the presidency of Yugoslavia not break up the Banja Luka corps..."
1 And so on and so forth. And what you said on radio, I suggest, was this,
2 that -- and these were your words: "We warn of a large number of officers
3 in the Banja Luka Corps" -- is that what they were saying? Sorry. No,
4 that's what they were saying. You were reading out what they said.
5 What you actually said was your conclusion: "The Presidency and
6 General Staff will be informed about this conclusion as early as Monday
7 through direct contact with the crisis staff representative, Nenad
8 Stevandic, and the conclusion will be submitted in written form." Do you
9 agree that's what was decided?
10 A. That it should be sent to the general Staff and the Presidency of
11 Yugoslavia. Yes, that was concluded, and it must have been implemented,
13 Q. Number 3, request the arrest of war profiteers, et cetera, and you
14 say this demand was also adopted.
15 Number 4, it's requested that the staff in Jugobanka, Banja Luka
16 and Privredna Bank company, be dismissed in order for a monetary coup to
17 be prevented. This inclusion is to be adopted by the 6th of April. All
19 Item number 6: "Municipal organs be re-examined." You stated:
20 "That the 6th conclusion" -- I'm sorry, yes. Sorry, the fifth. I'm
21 sorry, it's my fault. The fifth conclusion: "We demand that staff be
22 dismissed in the post where those who voted against Yugoslavia are
23 employed as managers or operators or technical officers, and therefore
24 cannot work for the Yugoslav PTT community."
25 That conclusion -- and then the sixth was to request the work of
1 the municipal organs be re-examined. That sixth conclusion which is to be
2 implemented by Radoslav Brdjanin, Milinkovic and Mitrakovic goes as
3 follows: "Dismissal of managers conducting anti-Serb policy is requested
4 in all public companies. We call upon the workers to schedule staff
5 meetings, shareholders, and implement those demands." And so on and so
7 Now, what I want to ask you about this, where in the demands that
8 the SOS gave you did it say that all managers conducting anti-Serb policy
9 is requested in all public companies? Because conclusion number 5 -- I'm
10 sorry, request or whatever it was. Request number 5 says: "We request
11 replacements in the post office and in the PTT." It's the same thing.
12 Where is there a demand of a dismissal of managers conducting an anti-Serb
13 policy in all public companies?
14 A. Where does it say they will be dismissed in all public companies?
15 Q. No. You on radio said to the public in Banja Luka Radio -- in
16 Banja Luka, sorry, that the sixth conclusion which was to be implemented
17 by Mr. Brdjanin, Mr. Milinkovic, and Mr. Mitrakovic -- do you see that in
18 the document? Not in the demands.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just want to object to the form of
20 the question. Ms. Korner said "you said on radio," blah, blah, blah,
21 blah. The proper question is someone who wrote this down claims that you
22 said on the radio such and such, I think. I think that's a fairer
23 question. And while I'm up, page 52, line 16, he didn't say that "it must
24 have been implemented." He said "it probably had been implemented."
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that correct?
1 MR. ACKERMAN: He probably doesn't even know where we're talking
2 about. It's back when we're talking about the army.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I take your word for it, Mr. Ackerman. Let's
4 proceed. Let's move ahead.
5 MS. KORNER: Right.
6 Q. If we're going to have an argument about this, can you also have,
7 please, P137.
8 MS. KORNER: On the ELMO, please, page -- the fourth page of the
9 English version. No, wrong page. Usher, if you -- can you just put my
10 copy of the highlighted version on the ELMO, rather than going through
12 Q. All right. According to Glas, and that's just a summary of what
13 we've just been dealing with, the crisis staff entrusted a working group
14 consisting of Brdjanin, Mitrakovic, and Milinkovic to make arrangements by
15 the 15th of April this year for initiating legal procedure for the
16 dismissal of all key officials in Banja Luka enterprises who are pursuing
17 an anti-Serbian policy.
18 Now, where in the demands that were made by the SOS did they
19 demand the dismissal of all anti-Serbian officials in Banja Luka
20 enterprises? Take it from me, Mr. Radic, they didn't.
21 A. After item 5, because I have three documents here. One is the one
22 I've got here. The second one is also in front of me, and the third one
23 is the one I'm holding in my hands. I'd like to read something out here.
24 Under 6: "They accepted item 6, although he was on Radio Banja Luka, he
25 didn't read it out." This has to do with item 5. The deadline was the
1 10th of April. The PTT director was responsible for that.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down when
3 reading. The interpreter cannot follow.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was not what was read out on
5 the radio.
6 MS. KORNER:
7 Q. All right, I'm going to ask you, Mr. Radic --
8 A. I didn't say that that had to be done.
9 Q. Sorry. You didn't say on radio, is that what you say, that --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Just a moment. -- that a commission -- that the decision to be
12 implemented by Brdjanin, Milinkovic, and Mitrakovic, "the dismissal of all
13 managers conducted by the anti-Serb policy is requested in all public
14 companies." Are you saying that you never said that on radio?
15 A. No. It says here that that request of the SOS organisation was
16 accepted. That's the last sentence.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but it's being put to you, Mr. Radic, that SOS,
18 the SOS, never made that request. The only request that there is in this
19 context or in that context is number 5, relating to the PTT, the post,
20 telephone, and telegraphy, and it had nothing to do with all public
21 companies, and all those were not following the Serb course, or damaging
23 MS. KORNER:
24 Q. The simple point is this, Mr. Radic, and it's taking a long time
25 to get to it. Why did you go further, you and your cohorts, go further
1 than the SOS had actually asked?
2 A. Are you sure that what you read in Glas is verbatim what -- or not
3 verbatim what was demanded from the SOS?
4 Q. No, but I'm suggesting that what's contained in this document
5 about your radio broadcast is verbatim, or more or less verbatim, and that
6 you said on the radio that Mr. Brdjanin, Mr. Milinkovic, and
7 Mr. Mitrakovic would adopt a conclusion that managers adopting an
8 anti-Serb policy in all public companies would be dismissed.
9 A. I said that Radio Banja Luka was blocked. They received the
10 demands that were supposed to be read out, and it says here, demand number
11 6 was adopted. And although it was on radio Banja Luka, it wasn't read
12 out. We are talking about item 1 -- the conclusion number 6 was handed to
13 them, but was never read out. So this is not my interpretation, but this
14 is what the SOS had delivered to Banja Luka Radio when it blocked it, and
15 this should also have been read out, but it wasn't.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: In all fairness, Ms. Korner, the paragraph from
17 Glas, relative paragraph, actually starts with the words "during the
18 negotiations, another resolution was reached." So it seems to me that
19 what was in the -- that this was not amongst the original demands made by
20 SOS, but was an addendum to which they arrived at following further
22 MS. KORNER: I'll ask the witness, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Please go ahead. But that's how I understand it.
24 That's how I read it.
25 MS. KORNER: That could be anything.
1 Q. But anyhow, is this right, Mr. Radic, that during the
2 negotiations, as it was put, the SOS asked not just for the post office
3 workers be dismissed but workers, anti-Serb, so-called anti-Serbian
4 workers in all enterprises?
5 A. That's why I said that not all of their demands are here in the
6 newspaper, in Glas. There were other things that were said that were
7 never supposed to be done, and those things were read out on the radio.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
9 MS. KORNER:
10 Q. Can you explain to me why you agreed to even greater demands made
11 by the SOS which were wholly and utterly illegal?
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, it's up to you to decide whether
13 or not they're illegal, not Ms. Korner's decision.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner is suggesting to him that they were
16 MS. KORNER: Mr. Radic said yesterday it was an illegal decision.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: He has already stated that the decision to dismiss
18 persons like what was his name, the director of Metal, I forgot his name.
19 MS. KORNER: Mr. Osmancevic, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Osmancevic was illegal.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: My other objection is that that question has two
22 questions in it. Why did you agree to greater demands, and were they
23 illegal? If he says "yes," he's saying yes to both of those and he may
24 not want to say yes to both of those.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's true. Let's take them one by one. And
1 the first one is, again, relative, Ms. Korner, because if the new demand
2 was made during the negotiations, well, you put it at par, and it was
3 accepted together with the rest.
4 MS. KORNER: I think may be Your Honour is not following what I'm
6 Q. These demands that are listed there do not contain that demand to
7 sack all managers. Do you agree with that, Mr. Radic?
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we have been here three times now. He
9 said just a few moments ago that's why he was saying it's not on that list
10 of demands. I think that's clearly established and we're now wasting
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's get this over and done with.
13 The decision to sack all key officials in Banja Luka enterprises
14 who were not pursuing -- or who were pursuing an anti-Serbian policy was
15 not amongst the demands that were first put to you by the SOS. Is that
16 correct, or not? That's a yes or no.
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So next thing. So why did you accept
19 it, or why did you take that decision? It is being put to you that you
20 were not only prepared to take over, accept all the suggestions or all the
21 demands of the SOS, but that you even went beyond.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't make any decisions. This
23 was done under the pressure of that group which took the municipal
24 building, the radio, and many other buildings in Banja Luka. What
25 decisions could I have taken in that position? Everybody was clear that
1 this was illegal. I told you already that those decisions or demands were
2 never enforced or implemented.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner. He's opened another chapter again
4 for you. He has just told you that those decisions were illegal and they
5 were not implemented in any case.
6 MS. KORNER:
7 Q. How can you even start to say that, Mr. Radic? That decision to
8 sack all the managers -- the so-called anti-Serbian one, was the major one
9 that was brought into effect, wasn't it?
10 A. Do you have any proof that all this was put into effect
11 immediately after that?
12 Q. You say "immediately." If you mean they were all sacked in one
13 go, no, they weren't. But gradually, slowly but surely, starting in
14 April, managers like Mr. Osmancevic were sacked. That's right, isn't it?
15 A. Yes, Osmancevic was sacked and replaced by another man. Correct.
16 Q. Now, the point that has taken us so long to get here, Mr. Radic,
17 is this, isn't it, the reason there was a further increase of these
18 demands is because they were there to carry out the SDS policy, weren't
20 A. I don't know whether this was the SDS policy. But it was put in
21 there that this is how things should be done. Whether this was an SDS
22 policy, I wouldn't be able to tell you.
23 Q. And shortly after this, Mr. Brdjanin started to go into the media
24 explaining that named people, including Mr. Osmancevic, including Colonel
25 Hasotic from the army, including Colonel Kranjc, various other people,
1 should be dismissed, didn't it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When you were asked by Mr. Ackerman at page 27 of the LiveNote for
4 the 3rd of November why you hadn't had the army and police arrest these
5 men and throw them out of town, you gave a number of reasons. You said
6 first if you look at the date when all of this was happening, you'll see
7 this was happening when the army was withdrawing from Slavonia. And then
8 you said this: "I would also like to remind you and I'm sure you'll find
9 it in a document somewhere that at that time 12 babies died in a clinical
10 hospital centre. They were prematurely born babies, and they died only
11 because they couldn't get oxygen."
12 Now, do you want to stick by that that answer, that at the time
13 that the SOS came in on the 3rd of April, this is when the so-called Banja
14 Luka babies -- well, not so-called. The Banja Luka babies apparently
16 A. Please, not all 12 of the babies died in one day because of the
17 SOS. They died because the borders were closed and they could not receive
18 the oxygen in the incubators where they were. Please do not try to say
19 that I said that it all happened on one day. They died. You know what
20 their names are. Their graves. And please, do not -- this really doesn't
21 make any sense, and I didn't say that this happened because of the SOS
22 came on that day, but because there was no oxygen and because we were
23 blocked and we couldn't get oxygen at the time.
24 Q. Mr. Radic, I read you back your exact words, and I now want to
25 deal once and for all in this case, I hope, with the Banja Luka babies. I
1 want you to look, first of all, at an edition of Glas.
2 A. I wish we could deal once and for all with the issue of the Banja
3 Luka babies because somebody would be held responsible for that case.
4 Q. Yes.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just want to enter an objection
6 again about a document that wasn't previously turned over that clearly is
7 relevant to this case. We have been talking about Banja Luka babies since
8 probably about the first day of the case.
9 MS. KORNER: This is a public document, an edition of Glas, and we
10 offered Mr. Ackerman the facilities to go through all our editions of
11 Glas --
12 MR. ACKERMAN: She is right. She is right. I withdraw the
13 objection. She is absolutely correct.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, both of you.
15 Ms. Korner, let's not make an issue out of it. Let's move ahead.
16 MS. KORNER: All right. I'll resist.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And I also notice the witness is getting tired.
18 MS. KORNER: As I say, if Your Honour wants to adjourn --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. I'll stop only if Mr. Radic says he wants
20 to. But I can read the expression on his face that he is getting tired.
21 And I think I have enough experience to know if a person is getting tired
22 or not.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't want to take any unfair
24 advantage of Mr. Radic. If he feels that he would prefer to adjourn, then
25 I'll ask Your Honour to adjourn.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Radic, are you feeling tired?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is disgusting to show a document
3 like this. I am not tired. I am prepared to continue and explain why I
4 mentioned the case of these babies in my testimony.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's continue. The moment you feel
6 tired and you need to stop, let me know.
7 MS. KORNER: All right.
8 Q. I want to deal just with this aspect of it. This is an article --
9 can I just see -- article dated the 4th of June where Glas is reporting
10 that as of tomorrow the fate of seven babies in an incubator could be a
11 terrible one and deals with the fact of the lack of oxygen. Do you agree
12 that is the 4th of June, two months after the arrival of the SOS?
13 A. We were blocked even at the time when the SOS came. I mentioned
14 this just as an example of what was happening in this confined space which
15 was referred to as Krajina. So this is just one example to illustrate
16 what was going on. Obviously, there was a lack of medicines. There was a
17 lack of food and all the other things, and then soldiers started
18 withdrawing from the front lines --
19 Q. Mr. Radic, all that I'm asking you about is having seen this
20 article, do you accept that the Banja Luka babies had nothing to do with
21 the difficulties you had or you say you had in getting rid of the SOS?
22 A. At that time, this indeed did not yet happen. But this just
23 illustrates our situation, and all the things that were happening and that
24 could happen in this enclosed space.
25 MS. KORNER: Could that be made 2702, please, P2702.
1 Could you look, please, at the next article dated the 8th of June
2 from Glas.
3 Q. Reporting that the oxygen has arrived from Belgrade to Banja Luka.
4 Do you remember that, the flight from Belgrade to Banja Luka with the
6 A. It was such a small quantity that it was used within the space of
7 a couple of days. Such a minute quantity. And if the Honourable Chamber
8 would like to know, I would like to tell you what steps I took later on in
9 order to obtain oxygen.
10 Q. All right. And finally --
11 MS. KORNER: Thank you. That would be 2703. And finally, Your
12 Honour, on this topic, I would like -- this is not an article that -- it's
13 another article from Vreme from the internet dated June the 29th. And if
14 that could be...
15 Q. Now, it's only in English, Mr. Radic. But Vreme, do you recall,
16 published an article at the end of June 1992 on the topic of the
17 Banja Luka babies?
18 A. I don't remember because we didn't read Vreme.
19 Q. And the suggestion from Vreme who set out the history of this was
20 this was propaganda being put out by the Bosnian Serbs. Were you aware of
21 that, Mr. Radic?
22 A. This is really a disgrace, Madam Prosecutor, a sheer disgrace. I
23 will bring a book and put it at the disposal of the Honourable Chamber.
24 The book was written by a pediatric surgeon and lists the names and the
25 dates of all the things that happened. This is nothing but a pamphlet
1 written by this Mr. Milos Vasic. This is just propaganda, it's a
2 disgrace, Madam Prosecutor. And it is real disgraceful, to contrast a
3 document of this nature to the 12 babies that died. There are witnesses
4 to that. There are international institutions that registered those
5 deaths. And what you can read in Vreme is a sheer disgrace, nothing but a
7 MS. KORNER: Could that be made P2704, please, Your Honour.
8 Q. Could I deal with one other matter in connection with what you
9 said about the SOS before we look at what you said in interview, and that
10 was in connection with --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Korner. Yes, Mr. Radic.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what your rules are in
13 this courtroom and whether I can deliver a book to you via the Defence
14 counsels, a book that documents the events involving the 12 babies which
15 show that this was no Serbian propaganda. This book deals with over 12
16 babies who died.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I authorise you to do so, provided Mr. Ackerman
18 accepts to hand it over.
19 MS. KORNER: Right. No objection, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course, I wouldn't imagine there would be.
21 MS. KORNER: No.
22 Q. Now, you dealt with the Banja Luka Corps. You were asked about
23 one of the demands, that is, the breaks up of the Banja Luka corps. And
24 you were asked this: "Did this crisis staff that was created - that is
25 your crisis staff - have any competency to issue orders to the supreme
1 command or the presidency of Yugoslavia?" And you said "No, not at all."
2 This is page 16 of the LiveNote. "The municipal assembly of Banja Luka
3 couldn't do this, not even the National Assembly of Republika Srpska. An
4 order arrived from the main staff of the JNA requesting all officers
5 withdraw by the 15th of May and be transferred to Yugoslavia. Most of
6 them obeyed this order and returned to Yugoslavia. But some of them
7 remained there. I would like to tell you that that was the smallest corps
8 in the JNA and it consisted of about 1.500 men. I am talking about the
9 Banja Luka Corps."
10 Do you want to stand by that answer, Mr. Radic?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. All right. Would you like, please, to have a look first of all at
13 P6. No, P2417. Part of it, I'm sorry. And if you give it to me, I will
14 find the...
15 Could I have the English first, please. All right. Could we have
16 the English on the ELMO, page 79.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I take Mr. Ackerman's point actually --
18 here we are. Got it. All right. Well, at the moment -- Your Honour, I'm
19 having some difficulty finding this in the B/C/S. The English -- I've got
20 it, I think. Found it. Thank you. That page, please, to be shown to the
22 Q. This is a report of the 2nd military district command, 23rd of
23 January 1992. It includes a list of the manning levels of the corps
24 within that command. Do you see the 5th Corps total manning level?
25 17.539 people.
1 A. 17.539.
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. Slowly, slowly. Wartime. Peacetime. 2.815. I would like you
4 to --
5 Q. Can you go to the last column, please, Mr. Radic. Under "total
6 manning level."
7 A. The last column, I can see 17.753 [as interpreted]. Yes, this is
8 the column here.
9 Q. I'm sorry. Sorry, stop, Mr. Radic. 17.539. Not 1.753.
10 A. Because the second part of this number is not legible on my copy
11 because -- but I would really like you to ask this question of a military
12 expert, not me, because I was told that this was the smallest corps on the
13 strength of the Yugoslav People's Army, and that's a fact.
14 Q. So what you're saying is you didn't know one way or the other when
15 you asserted that it was the smallest corps consisting of only 1.500
17 A. Regular troops. Regular troops.
18 Q. And I'm going to suggest to you by the 23rd of May, Mr. Radic, the
19 size of the corps had risen to some 40.000 men and officers. I'm sorry,
20 more than that, in fact.
21 A. Madam Prosecutor, I'm talking about the regular army which were
22 there. And those people that you are talking about were mobilised. And
23 again, I kindly ask you to invite experts. I believe that some will be
24 invited as witnesses. They will be able to tell you about the strength of
25 the 5th Corps on the eve of the war. I'm not an expert for that.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 However, according to the information that I received from them, this was
2 the smallest corps in the Yugoslav People's Army.
3 Q. What makes you believe --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: 66, line 4. It's minor. But what he said was:
6 "The last column, I see 1.753." I think it's clear from the next question
7 of Ms. Korner.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I see it. We can leave it as it is,
9 Mr. Ackerman.
10 MS. KORNER:
11 Q. What leads you to believe, Mr. Radic, that a military expert is
12 going to be called?
13 A. Because it would be appropriate for a military expert to witness
14 the strength of the army. I really can't be a witness to that. I don't
15 know who reserves are. I don't know who active army is. There are
16 younger officers, 190-something, and so on and so forth. But these are
17 just my assumption. I cannot be the best interpreter of what the -- what
18 it says here and when they told me, the military experts told me that this
19 was the smallest corps of the Yugoslav People's Army, I believed them. It
20 was some sort of a reserve or an auxiliary corps as far as I understood
22 Q. Right. When did you ask an expert how many people were in the
23 5th/1st Krajina Corps?
24 MR. ACKERMAN: He didn't say he asked an expert, Your Honour.
25 MS. KORNER: "The military experts told me..."
1 MR. ACKERMAN: He didn't say he asked.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was just told to us.
3 MS. KORNER:
4 Q. When?
5 A. Experts told us that this was the smallest corps. And this sticks
6 in my mind, and you should really ask these experts how big the corps
7 really was and what was its strength in Banja Luka. Now, if you insist on
8 who told me and when they told me, I don't know. This was just something
9 that was a figure -- a figure being given to us on the eve of the war.
10 Q. All right. I'm just going to ask you this again: You've told us
11 a moment ago that you believe that military -- I've lost it now -- now.
12 "I believe that some" -- you said: "I kindly ask you to invite experts.
13 I believe that some will be invited as witnesses." Why do you believe
14 that some will be invited as witnesses?
15 MR. ACKERMAN: She asked that, and it was answered. He said he
16 just made that assumption because they're military issues here. I think
17 he said something like that.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we should leave it and proceed, Ms. Korner.
19 You're not going to get anywhere.
20 MS. KORNER: Thank you. I thought I was getting somewhere. Your
21 Honour --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's have a break. 20 minutes from now,
23 resuming at 10 minutes to 6.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.
1 MS. KORNER:
2 Q. Mr. Radic, I'm going to ask you to look at a couple of excerpts
3 from the interview you gave to us. I'd like you to first look at page 65
4 in the B/C/S, and page 64 in the English of the first interview in 2001.
5 64 in English; 65 in B/C/S. Do you see there, Mr. Radic, you were asked
6 at the top of the page, you can see, about the arrival of the SOS? You
7 were if you recall that, and you said: "Of course, I do." It was put to
8 you there was negotiation held with the SOS about certain demands that
9 they had. And you said there that the only demand they had was to be
10 allowed to stay in town and continue doing what they were doing.
11 However, Mr. Radic, it's right to say you hadn't seen the
12 documents at that stage, so I'm not suggesting there that you were trying
13 to mislead. But I want to know about the bottom part. It was put to you:
14 "So you're saying there was nothing you could have done about the
15 existence of the SOS which is a paramilitary organisation in Banja Luka?"
16 "Something probably could have been done, but it would have been
17 partial. They could not have been eliminated entirely without strong
18 police and military forces, and I've also wanted to know who actually
19 manipulated them."
20 "What made you think they were manipulated?"
21 You said: "Because despite police and military measures, they
22 would remain here. We knew exactly who they were. They would
23 sometimes -- they would just disappear and go to Belgrade and come back
25 "Who do you think that they were working for, war profiteers? And
1 who would those be in Banja Luka that allowed them to stay?
2 "No one could allow them. They didn't ask anyone."
3 "But they must have had protectors who they paid."
4 Question: "At high levels?"
5 "Whether we are talking about high levels or people with a lot of
6 money, I don't know."
7 Do you still stick by that answer, or answers?
8 A. Yes, I do. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Then, I'd like you to have a look, please, at the
10 second interview now - you can hand that back to the usher - where the
11 question of the SOS was gone over again. And could you look, please,
12 first of all at page 39 in the English, which is -- I think it's 39, yes.
13 Which is 36 and 37 in the Serbian language.
14 All right. We don't, apparently --
15 MS. KORNER: Could I have -- is that the first interview in B/C/S?
16 Q. I'm sorry. You have been given the page already, have you? Can I
17 just put this into context for you, Mr. Radic. You had been shown earlier
18 a document compiled by the General Tolimir who was the top security person
19 in the RS where it said that Nenad Stevandic was the leader of the SOS.
20 MS. KORNER: And Your Honours, that's already exhibited in our
21 case as P400.
22 Q. And you were asked: "Do you agree with that, that Colonel Tolimir
23 wrote about the SOS?"
24 And you said: "I do, yes, because I have no reason not to trust
25 Tolimir, who's a top security guy."
1 And then the investigator dealt with the Stevandic part, and the
2 investigator put to you a long question to the effect that the arrival of
3 the SOS and the demands were a ploy. Effectively what I've been putting
4 to you.
5 And your response: "The way you put it, their appearance must
6 have been orchestrated from somewhere."
7 And you were asked who.
8 And you said: "Yes, because the SOS couldn't appoint
9 themselves" --
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, although it says "they" in the English
11 transcript, I gather in the B/C/S it says SOS, and I think we can see it.
12 Q. -- "somebody had to prepare the territory, and the appearance of
13 the SOS, there's a strange coincidence between that and the decision we
14 received from Pale to form the crisis staff." And then you explained
15 about the decision.
16 And then at the bottom of the page, the article was read to you:
17 "`At a press conference today, Predrag Radic, president of the Banja Luka
18 Crisis Staff, declared that all SOS demands had been agreed to.'" .
19 "True, in a slightly modified way."
20 "Is that true or false?"
21 And your answer is this, and this is page 41: "Of course it is
22 yes. It is obvious" --
23 A. Just a minute. I can't follow.
24 Q. I'm sorry.
25 A. You're going too fast. 41, I don't have that.
1 Q. Page 38 in the B/C/S.
2 A. 38, I see.
3 Q. And your answer to that, at the top of the page: "Of course it
4 is, yes, because it was obvious, and I couldn't reject anything because I
5 knew, I realised that there was -- they were being dictated from
7 And then it was put to you you agreed to all their demands, and
8 you said you didn't say you agreed to all their demands. And it was put
9 to you again, you said earlier to Mr. Grady that you didn't know where the
10 SOS were getting their instructions from or why they were at this meeting
11 with you, but you're saying you agreed in modified form to their demands.
12 Answer: "Because a good portion of it fits in with what we
13 received from Pale."
14 "So in essence, a good portion of what the SOS was asking for was
15 what the SDS in Pale was asking for. Correct?"
16 And you say: "It wasn't the SDS, it was the president of the
17 government and the president of the republic. And there is a list of what
18 the crisis staff should do."
19 And do you still stick by those answers, Mr. Radic?
20 A. Well, yes, they must have received instructions from a very high
21 level, so that was acceptable.
22 Q. And then finally on this point, and then we'll leave the SOS, it
23 was -- you were asked: "Who were the president in the presidency and the
24 government that were making the decisions?"
25 And you said: "It's very well known who was in the presidency."
1 Question: "Yeah. Who?"
2 And then you answered: "Ms. Plavsic - it was a collective body of
3 the presidency - Ms. Plavsic, Mr. Koljevic, Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Karadzic.
4 So it was a collective body. How can I say it was Mr. Karadzic"?
5 That's effectively what you said to us yesterday. And finally,
6 the question: "Fine. So what we're saying is that the demands of the SOS
7 in Banja Luka broadly corresponded with the demands that you had been
8 instructed to implement by Biljana Plavsic, Krajisnik, and Karadzic from
10 Answer, from you: "Yeah, the four member of the presidency in
12 "So the answer to the question is yes?"
13 And you said: "It came to me as a paper, as a document, and I had
14 to implement it. And it's a fact. You'll find the same piece of paper in
15 Trebinje, in Prijedor, wherever they sent it."
16 Question: "And that is why publicly you agreed in modified form
17 to the demands of the SOS?"
18 Your answer: "I'm not going to say yes. I'm not going to say yes
19 because what the demands I received had to be modified in order to be
20 implemented because the modification was done in accordance with to the
21 order I received from" -- and there was an interruption -- "Pale."
22 And again, do you stick by those answers?
23 A. Yes, because we all received such instructions.
24 Q. Thank you. That's all I want to ask you about the SOS. And I
25 want to move, please, I hope fairly quickly now, through some of the other
2 Can you look, now, please at a document, P1617. I'm sorry. I've
3 made a mistake. I'm sorry. It's my fault. It's not going to be a
4 transcript. I've made a note of a wrong exhibit number.
5 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour. Ms. Gustin will turn it up very
6 quickly. I see, it is an attachment to that.
7 If you give me the whole exhibit, please, 1617, and I'll just
8 extract the right one. It's just the documents I want, and I'll just pick
9 out the right one for you.
10 Your Honour, this is P1617/S124.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: This is from Stakic, no?
12 MS. KORNER: Yes.
13 It doesn't appear to be in this. It should be, but it isn't.
14 Yes. Thank you. That's it.
15 Q. Yes, can you have a look, please, at this document. And we'll put
16 the English on the ELMO.
17 Do you remember a gentleman called Barney Mayhew from ECMM?
18 A. Yes. I remember.
19 Q. This is a report that he prepared on the -- of a meeting with you
20 on the 13th of April 1992. And you explain to him your view of the
21 Serbian Republic within Bosnia and Herzegovina. And you told him,
22 according to Mr. Mayhew's report, that he -- that you expected to be
23 appointed at the vice-president. Did you expect that in April?
24 A. That I told him that I was be the vice-president? Of what? Of
25 the republic?
1 Q. Did you expect that you would be appointed a vice-president of the
2 Serbian Republic in April of 1992?
3 A. Absolutely not.
4 Q. All right. Did you ever say that to Mr. Mayhew?
5 A. No, I didn't. How could I have been the vice-president of the
6 republic? What next?
7 Q. All right. Then you explained that there would be five parts to
8 the Serbian Republic within Bosnia and Herzegovina, according to
9 Mr. Mayhew. In fact, you set out the five autonomous regions. Is that
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, could we have the correct part on the ELMO.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was what was discussed,
13 the existence of these five --
14 MS. KORNER:
15 Q. Autonomous regions.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you explain to him that in your view the capital would be
18 Banja Luka?
19 A. It was natural for Banja Luka to be the capital.
20 Q. No. All I'm asking you, Mr. Radic, is did you tell Mr. Mayhew
22 A. The assumption that Banja Luka would be the capital, that's
23 something that was constantly present. I told him that that was a
24 possibility. When you put it this way, well, yes, I certainly said that
25 Banja Luka is the town that should be the capital.
1 Q. Right. Then, the next -- paragraph 4, Once the Muslim and Croat
2 constituent units of BiH are established, you foresaw a small central
3 government responsible for certain aspects of fiscal policy and foreign
4 policy. But saying "once the Muslim and Croat constituent units of BiH
5 were established," were you saying that there would be separate Serb,
6 separate Muslim, and separate Croat?
7 A. At the time, that had almost been an agreement, so I didn't tell
8 him anything new.
9 Q. All right. Do you remember him asking you whether it was the
10 plebiscite that had taken place in November which gave the authority for
11 the Serbian Republic, and your reply, that the republic was a result of
12 the wishes of the Serbian people?
13 A. That's correct. And that was confirmed in the plebiscite.
14 Q. All right. In paragraph 6, you were asked about the statement of
15 principles in Brussels. Paragraph 7 has been chopped off in my copy.
16 Paragraph 8, you apparently said that in your view, the European Community
17 strongly favoured Croatia and Slovenia. Did you express such views to
19 A. That's not what it says on this item 6 here. It says that I
20 said --
21 Q. No, 8. Sorry, 8?
22 A. Eight, oh, I see. I thought it was six. Yes, well it was obvious
23 that at the time Croatia and Slovenia had already been declared as states,
24 so the fact that they were in favour of them, that they supported them, is
25 not a secret at all. But that they conducted a campaign against the
1 orthodox church, I don't think I -- but if the person says that that is
2 what I said.
3 Q. All right. But then he remarks that you were friendly towards
4 him. And finally this: "The Livno/Duvno situation. Mr. Radic warned
5 that we should not be surprised if we took Croatian civilian hostages in
6 order to exchange them for Serb civilian hostages held in Rascani near
7 Duvno. We warn him that the EC would view this with great concern, and
8 that he would lose any moral advantage that he now has. We promised him
9 that ECMM teams would do what they could to help any Serb hostages and
10 urged him to be patient."
11 Did you threaten or did you tell him that you might take Croatian
12 civilian hostages?
13 A. No, it says if he takes Croatian civilians as hostages. How would
14 I do that? I said that it was a possibility that Croatians might be taken
15 as hostages to have an exchange in Rascani. Mr. Mihijun [phoen],
16 Mr. Botonakis went to Rascani, that was the result, and they saw what they
17 saw there. A month or two later, the Serbs from Rascani were released.
18 These are people from Tomislavgrad who had been confined in the village of
20 Q. I understand that, Mr. Radic. What I'm asking you is were you
21 saying at this stage that Croats presumably in Banja Luka would be held as
22 hostages for exchange with the Serbian hostages in Rascani?
23 A. I can't remember having expressed it in that way, that I would --
24 rather, that he would have hostages who would be exchanged for those
25 people. I didn't even know how many of them there were in Rascani, but I
1 drew his attention to the fact that it was time to go there and to see for
2 themselves. In any case, it says Botonakis and Majir [phoen] here. We
3 went there together. This should be understood. And a month later, these
4 people were released without any hostages, et cetera.
5 Q. Thank you. That's all I'm going to ask you about that document.
6 Can you look, please, just very briefly, please, at Glas for the
7 21st of April, which is P157. I'm sorry, 154. I beg your pardon.
8 MS. KORNER: Has he been given 154?
9 Q. This is in connection with what you said about the dismissals.
10 This is Glas 21st April, conversation with Mr. Brdjanin, dismissals
11 according to the wishes of the people. And there you see in the beginning
12 part of the article the basic reason for the conversation of
13 Radoslav Brdjanin, the vice-president, et cetera, charged with putting
14 through the demands already accepted of the Serbian Defence forces about
15 personnel changes. And there you can see, Mr. Radic, I suggest to you Mr.
16 Brdjanin explaining what steps are being taken.
17 And can you find the part where Mr. Brdjanin mentions, he mentions
18 a number of names. Talks about Merkur, a firm called Konzum company, and
19 then Metal, Mr. Osmancevic. In fact, Mr. Brdjanin asserting that the
20 managing board of this firm must urgently hold session and meet the
21 demands of the Serbian Defence Forces and of this commission and from the
22 point of view of personnel levelling relieve Dzevad Osmancevic director of
23 the company and Ecim Skor [phoen] sales director. And so on and so forth.
24 So do you accept, Mr. Radic, having been reminded of that article
25 that the implementation began very, very shortly after the SOS made those
2 A. Well, the date shows that it's the 21st of April, and that was on
3 the 3rd of April. 18 days later. But it here it says this was an
4 implementation of the request made by the crisis staff. And the -- on
5 taking over the SOS, taking over by the SOS. So yes, later, there were
6 dismissals. But you can see that Boro Vitkovic who was a Serb was also
7 replaced in the service centre which also didn't satisfy certain demands.
8 So yes, they were replaced.
9 Q. The way it was put earlier was that Serbs who hadn't voted in
10 favour of the Serbian State were also liable to dismissal. And that was
11 right, wasn't it?
12 A. That was a little more difficult to determine, to determine who
13 hadn't voted in the plebiscite for remaining within Yugoslavia. But that
14 was also put. You don't want to remain in Yugoslavia, so you cannot
15 continue in your role as managers. That was also a request.
16 Q. All right. Now, again, briefly, because you've looked at this
17 document before, and identified it. Can you be shown P157.
18 Those are the instructions from the prime minister, Mr. Dzeric.
19 Is that right?
20 A. Yes. That is right. 26 April 1992.
21 Q. It sets out what needs to be done in respect of the work of the
22 municipal crisis staffs. And in the last paragraph, 14: "The crisis
23 staff shall convene and make decisions in the presence of all its members,
24 take official minutes, issue written decisions, and submit weekly reports
25 to the regional and state organisations of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia
1 and Herzegovina."
2 In the case of the Krajina, the regional organisation was the
3 assembly, and then the crisis staff. Is that right?
4 A. Will you please repeat this. You are talking about item 14,
5 aren't you?
6 Q. Item 14: "The municipal crisis staff" -- it says "the crisis
7 staff" but the directions are to the municipal. "Shall convene and make
8 decisions in the presence of all its members," et cetera, "and submit
9 weekly reports to the regional and state organisations."
10 I'm not asking if you submitted weekly reports, Mr. Radic. All
11 I'm asking you is to confirm that in the Autonomous Region of Krajina, the
12 regional organisation was the autonomous region assembly; and when that
13 didn't meet, the autonomous region crisis staff.
14 A. Well, the assembly existed and worked. The crisis staff was
15 established and also worked. That is, the crisis staff of the AR Krajina.
16 So both bodies worked.
17 Q. Right.
18 A. Because here, there's no mention of the regional -- that is, of
19 the regions which later on became. This is what Mr. Dzeric wrote 22 days
20 after the beginning of the war.
21 Q. All right. In reality, it's right, isn't it, it was only the
22 Autonomous Region of Krajina that ever had a proper functioning, working
24 A. There were others, for example, SAO Romanija, SAO Herzegovina,
25 they also had their respective assemblies. Not only the AR Krajina.
1 Q. Let me ask you this: Did you know Mr. Perisic, the head of the --
2 the president of the northern autonomous region? The Autonomous Region of
3 North Bosnia?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you never see Mr. Perisic at the meetings of the assembly or
6 at the crisis staff, the regional crisis staff, from Teslic?
7 A. No. He is not from the northern part. He is from Teslic, indeed.
8 And I knew him.
9 Q. Right.
10 A. But that is not the north of the country.
11 Q. No. All right. Was he not -- well, did you know -- if you don't,
12 say so. Did you know that he was supposedly president of the Autonomous
13 Region of Northern Bosnia?
14 A. No. How could he be the president of the region of Northern
15 Bosnia if he was from Teslic? In the north, you have Posavina, Semberija,
16 and that is in the north. So he could not be the president of the
17 northern part of Bosnia.
18 Q. In fact, in the document we just looked at, the Serb Autonomous
19 District of North Bosnia was meant to include Doboj, and Teslic,
20 Semberija, Bijeljina, and other places. Do you remember that? If you
21 don't, say so. I don't want to waste time on it.
22 A. I really don't remember. Nothing indicated -- there was no
23 indication that this could be the case in that region.
24 Q. One final document, and I think that will then deal with it for
25 today. Would you please look at P278.
1 Again, this is an article in Glas much later, on the 10th of July,
2 where the Autonomous Region of Krajina Crisis Staff changed its name to
3 War Presidency. It was -- Brdjanin gave an explanation saying: "The
4 establishment of the AR Krajina Crisis Staff or the municipal crisis staff
5 is no invention of ours. The Government of the Serbian Republic of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina passed the decision to form them, and Dr. Branko Dzeric
7 signed it, abolishing the crisis staff," Brdjanin went on to say, "has
8 caused some ambiguity and doubt about the previous decisions of our crisis
9 staff having any legal weight. This is incorrect because essentially the
10 war presidency is carrying on the same work as did the crisis staff, which
11 means that all our previously passed crisis staff decisions will have to
12 be carried out." And so on and so forth.
13 Just two questions: Was it about this time also that the Banja
14 Luka Municipal Crisis Staff became known as the war presidency?
15 A. I wouldn't be able to answer that question, whether the municipal
16 staff became war presidency. I would have to consult documents. I cannot
17 answer this question.
18 Q. All right.
19 A. This is a very short document. Speaks about Atlas, about Putnik,
20 the return of weapons.
21 Q. It was just that part that I want to deal with.
22 And finally for today, Mr. Radic, were you present at the assembly
23 on the 17th of July, the assembly of the autonomous region, when all the
24 decisions taken by the regional crisis staff of the ARK were verified?
25 A. I don't think so.
1 Q. All right.
2 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: That's all for today. I thank you once more,
4 Mr. Radic. You'll be escorted by Mr. Usher, and we'll see you again
5 tomorrow afternoon, 2.15.
6 MS. KORNER: Could I ask Your Honour to remain behind after
7 Mr. Radic has left Court. Thank you.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
9 Yes, I also had recognised Mr. Ackerman standing up.
10 MR. ACKERMAN: I was just wondering if there's any chance at all
11 that we can meet in the morning rather than the afternoon. I know you'd
12 looked into that. But I noticed that the Nikolic case is over.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I have a meeting with the other two Judges in the
14 other case I was sitting in on this morning. And that's at 10.00. And I
15 don't know how long it's going to last. Then I have another meeting.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I say, because I checked to make
17 sure when we were sitting, I do have meetings now organised involving the
18 Prosecutor and effectively all the STAs tomorrow morning at 11.00 on the
19 basis that we'd be sitting in the afternoon. To reorganise would really
20 cause all sorts of problems.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I had already agreed with Judge Mumba and
22 Judge Schomburg -- I had agreed that we would sit immediately in
23 conference --
24 MR. ACKERMAN: No problem, Your Honour. Tomorrow afternoon.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the only query I have is whether
1 Your Honour is going to put a time limit on me now.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Ms. Korner, let's put it like this: If you
3 could avoid me having to do that, that would be better.
4 MS. KORNER: If I can take the whole day tomorrow, I've got ample
5 material to fill the whole of tomorrow. If Your Honour tells me I
6 can't --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do this. I must first confer with Judge Taya
8 and Judge Janu to see whether there are any questions. And also, the
9 re-examination, redirect.
10 MS. KORNER: I agree, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Which I suppose there will be, having observed
12 things. So let's talk about it tomorrow. In the meantime, perhaps,
13 Mr. Ackerman --
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, to make it clear, I need to know in
15 advance of tomorrow's sitting because I need to know --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: My intention is to have the testimony of this
17 witness concluded tomorrow.
18 MS. KORNER: Yes, can I last how long Your Honour is giving me,
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know how long Mr. Ackerman requires in
21 redirect. That's more important than how much we require.
22 MS. KORNER: He won't know until I finish cross. That's the
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I know. But at least based on what we have covered
25 today, he probably has an idea.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Right now, I would say around a half an hour.
2 Maybe a little more. And after what happens tomorrow, it may be a little
3 more. I really can't say for sure right now.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I explain the difficulty. It's
5 this: Clearly from any point of view -- as I've said already, from the
6 Defence point of view, this is a big witness. From your point of view, I
7 don't know. But you may think that hearing Mr. Radic is important. He's
8 said many, many things in his evidence in chief.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely, Ms. Korner.
10 MS. KORNER: Which, Your Honour, I would wish to demonstrate,
11 putting it at its lowest, an error. Otherwise, if I don't have the
12 opportunity to do that, then it stays, and Mr. Ackerman is entitled to
13 rely on it in his final address. And that's the real difficulty.
14 Your Honour, if we can start earlier, perhaps, tomorrow. And the
15 trouble is I can see Mr. Radic gets tired. I mean, I agree with Your
16 Honour on that, what the difficulty is. But if we can start earlier,
17 perhaps having proper breaks, then I will conclude tomorrow in time for
18 Mr. Ackerman. But not if we're just sitting again from 2.15 to 6.30.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, a great deal of this time has been
21 taken up by the Prosecution not able to show Mr. Radic where things are.
22 Plus, Your Honour, when we were cross-examining Prosecution witnesses, you
23 told Mr. Cunningham and Madam Baruch one day that there's no way in the
24 world that a cross-examination should be permitted to exceed the length of
25 a direct examination. I think I can find your words in the transcript to
1 that effect. She has now been going on and on and on, and a lot of it
2 just completely useless time-wasting as far as I'm concerned. But
3 certainly useless time-wasting with regard to not being properly prepared.
4 And now to say she wants to keep Mr. Radic here over the weekend because
5 she did not get properly prepared to cross-examine him, I think is just --
6 I think she's had enough time. I think she should end fairly early
7 tomorrow and let him go home. Just have her structure her
8 cross-examination to finish tomorrow.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll take a decision tomorrow after discussing
10 amongst ourselves, but be prepared to finish tomorrow. And roughly, we're
11 saying, because then everyone has to make a sacrifice, or sacrifice
12 something, I would say knock off maximum of three-quarters of an hour from
13 the day, if necessary. I think it will not be fair on the witness to
14 start in the morning, and then have a break, and then bring him here
15 again. He was dead tired today.
16 So we'll try and finish tomorrow. We've had -- he has been here
17 since Monday? Since Monday. And he took -- your direct was a day and a
19 MR. ACKERMAN: About a day and a half, Your Honour. I finished
20 sort of middle of the session, I think, on Tuesday.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So we've had the whole of Wednesday, the whole of
22 Thursday, and part of Tuesday. I think you need to finish tomorrow,
23 Ms. Korner.
24 MS. KORNER: As I say, I mean, I merely pointed out what I
25 consider to be the importance of the witness.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. But stick yourself to the important
2 questions. I recognise there is quite some territory to be covered on the
3 events that took place in Banja Luka. But I put pressure on the witness
4 as well tomorrow, and we conclude.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, regardless of what Mr. Ackerman may say
6 about the preparedness of the Prosecution, perhaps --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Forget that. I don't think I can agree or accept
8 that you are not prepared.
9 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Can I finish. I'm merely going to invite
10 Your Honour to ask Mr. Radic again to answer, if it's a question that can
11 be answered yes or no, to answer it yes or no.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Tomorrow I will control him to the best of my
13 ability, Ms. Korner.
14 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: So I wish to thank the interpreters and the
16 technicians and the rest of the staff. We have overstayed by about
17 7 minutes. I thank you. And we'll all meet tomorrow at 2.15. If we can
18 find a better courtroom tomorrow, change this one. I think it will be
19 better, rather than stay, because it's almost claustrophobic, this one.
20 Thank you.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.37 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Friday, the 7th day of
23 November, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.