Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22581

1 Thursday, 13 November 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, let's call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Case Number IT-99-36-T, The

7 Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Mr. Brdjanin, do you follow the

9 proceedings in a language you can understand?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I

11 can.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Appearances Prosecution.

13 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Julian Nicholls, assisted by Denise

14 Gustin case manager. Good morning, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you all. Appearances for Radoslav

16 Brdjanin.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman with

18 David Cunningham and Aleksandar Vujic.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman and good morning to you

20 all. And I also thank you for the revised list of witnesses which I very

21 much appreciate.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: It was sent both to you and to the Prosecution Your

23 Honour, and I'm assuming the former Thursday rule is no longer in effect.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: The rule remains in effect, but what you gave us

25 today, or what you emailed us proves very much that there was indeed a

Page 22582

1 need for the document because it was all changed. And then, of course, as

2 we go along, every Thursday before, you confirm to the Prosecution and to

3 the Court what the situation is. But at least we have an idea of what to

4 expect.

5 My apologies to everyone, to the public, for starting late. It

6 was due to some rearrangement that we had to make to come in the

7 courtroom. There is work going on having the door replaced outside. I

8 have been asked to inform them if the noise disturbs us at any time. So

9 if you feel disturbed, do let me know, and they promised to stop the works

10 immediately if we tell them to.

11 Bring the witness in, please, Madam usher. And we could, with

12 your indulgence, knock off 5 minutes from the break, say, have a 20-minute

13 break instead of 25 today to recover the lost 10 minutes.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, if we could do that today, I do have a

15 lot to get through today.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's what I meant, for both breaks.

17 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Kalabic. We are proceeding with

21 your cross-examination. Just take the opportunity of reminding you that

22 you are testifying under oath on the basis of the solemn declaration that

23 you entered yesterday. So please, take a chair. And Ms. Korner will

24 proceed with her cross.

25 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 22583


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Cross-examined by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

4 Q. Mr. Kalabic, yesterday I asked you a number of questions about who

5 you had spoken to from the Defence team. Do you recall that?

6 And can I please remind you, sir, just answer the questions yes or

7 no if you can because otherwise assuredly you will have to come back.

8 Now, do you remember those questions?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. In particular, I asked you about a gentleman named Milan

11 Trbojevic, and you said you didn't know him.

12 A. No, I didn't say I didn't know him. I said I didn't talk to him.

13 Q. Mr. Kalabic, I'm going to read back to you what you said

14 yesterday, and this is page 82 of the LiveNote. You were asked who did

15 you speak to? Was it Mr. Ackerman? You said no. Ms. Maglov? I can't

16 remember the name of the person.

17 "If I could see him, I would recognise him I'm sure."

18 "So it wasn't Mr. Trbojevic, whom you know, presumably, Milan

19 Trbojevic."

20 "No, it wasn't him, and no, I don't know him."

21 I'd like you to look please, now, at now Exhibit P2479. There's

22 an English on the ELMO, and I'm going to hand the B/C/S copy to you.

23 These are the minutes of the 20th session of the National Assembly of

24 Republika Srpska held on the 14th and 15th of September 1992. And can you

25 turn, please, in your document to page 9, and you'll see I've marked

Page 22584

1 something. And if the usher could put page 7 of the English on the ELMO.

2 Page 7 of the English.

3 I'm sorry, if you turn the document you have been given to page

4 7 -- I see, the ELMO is not working.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't see anything on mine anyway.

6 MS. KORNER: No. I see.

7 Well, Your Honour, have Your Honours got the document with you?



10 Q. If you look at page 7, does that show, Mr. Kalabic, that you that

11 day were appointed to a constitutional issues committee together with

12 Mr. Trbojevic, you being number 5 and Mr. Trbojevic being number 7?

13 A. No, this is a mistake. This is not me. This is another person

14 whose family name is Kasagic, not Kalabic.

15 Q. I'm sorry, my fault. If you turn, please, to the following page,

16 page 8, I marked that one by mistake, privatisation and denationalisation

17 committee. Mr. Trbojevic being the chairman, you at number 4, and at

18 number 5 Radoslav Brdjanin. Now, can you explain to us, Mr. Kalabic, why

19 you told us yesterday you didn't know Mr. Trbojevic?

20 A. I didn't say that I didn't know Mr. Trbojevic. I know Trbojevic

21 because he was a deputy in the assembly throughout the time I was a

22 deputy. There must have been a mistake in the interpretation, so it

23 turned out that I don't know Mr. Trbojevic. I do know him, but I didn't

24 meet him concerning this Defence.

25 Q. So your explanation is that the interpreters interpreting you

Page 22585

1 yesterday, and I asked you twice about him, made a mistake. You never

2 once intended to say you didn't know him?

3 A. No, I didn't say that I don't know Mr. Trbojevic. I said I didn't

4 meet with him with regard to this case.

5 Q. You're sure about that, are you?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps, Ms. Korner, you could refer him to the

7 section where you specifically reminded him where we're talking of the

8 ex-minister of justice yesterday, and he still said he didn't know the

9 person.


11 Q. The question and answer went on as follows, Mr. Kalabic. I put

12 to you: "You know presumably Milan Trbojevic."

13 You said "no, it wasn't him, and no, I don't know him," according

14 to our interpretation.

15 Question: "All right, you don't know him. You don't know the

16 minister of justice for the Republika Srpska or the ex-minister of justice

17 for the Republika Srpska?"

18 Then you said: "Maglov, I'm not familiar with that name."

19 And I said: "No, Mr. Trbojevic."

20 And you said: "No, I can't remember the last time of the person,

21 and there's really no reason for me to say that if I knew him."

22 Now, I'm asking you, Mr. Kalabic, was it Mr. Trbojevic who

23 actually took a statement from you?

24 A. No, it wasn't Mr. Trbojevic. I said that yesterday. And if I

25 said that I didn't know the minister of justice, I had Mr. Maglov in mind.

Page 22586

1 I had a long thought yesterday, and the statement was taken from me by a

2 man called Peric or by a man called Bozic. I really can't remember the

3 person's name because this was a year ago.

4 Q. All right. So it was a statement, was it? Somebody was writing

5 down what you said.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour.


8 MR. ACKERMAN: Perhaps I can clarify this. No statement was taken

9 from this witness. It was probably Mr. Peric that he talked to. At best

10 there were notes made of that conversation which are just notes made by

11 Mr. Peric taken. There was no statement.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: If there would have been a statement, it would have

14 been turned over.

15 MS. KORNER: I hear what Mr. Ackerman says. Anyway, I want to

16 move on.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so.


19 Q. Right. You can hand that document back. Thank you very much,

20 Mr. Kalabic.

21 Now, Mr. Kalabic, you said on a number of occasions yesterday that

22 your aim and the aim of the other members of the crisis staff was to

23 preserve peace in the Municipality of Kljuc at all times between October

24 1991 and September of 1992. Is that your evidence?

25 A. We tried to preserve peace in Kljuc forever, not only throughout

Page 22587

1 this brief period of time.

2 Q. And can I take from that that the last thing that you or any of

3 your fellow members of the Crisis Staff of Kljuc would want to do is

4 provoke ethnic tension?

5 A. I didn't understand the question.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I object to the question. I

7 don't think he's in a position to speak for all the other members of the

8 crisis staff. She could ask him what he intended and whether he wanted to

9 provoke tensions or not. But I don't think he can speak for what

10 everybody else was speaking.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I overrule you, Mr. Ackerman. The question is

12 perfectly legitimate. He was part of the crisis staff, and he can or

13 should be in a position to answer questions regarding the policy of the

14 crisis staff. So please go ahead.

15 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And you need to repeat the question because he

17 didn't understand it.


19 Q. You would not want to, would you, Mr. Kalabic, provoke, that is,

20 make matters worse between the various nationalities in Kljuc by speeches

21 or actions that you took?

22 A. Of course that I would not want to achieve such an effect.

23 Q. In your discussions with your fellow members of the crisis staff,

24 did you understand that they wouldn't want to do that either?

25 A. Yes. My conclusion was mostly that all the other members of the

Page 22588

1 crisis staff were eager to preserve peace at all costs.

2 Q. All right. I want you to have a look again at the document you

3 were shown by Mr. Ackerman, Exhibit P861, and I will hand you a marked

4 copy of the B/C/S. I don't know if the ELMO is working.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a reason why the ELMO is not working, Madam

6 Registrar? Is it maybe because it's not switched on or what?

7 THE REGISTRAR: The technician is working on that. But the video

8 will capture it.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know that. That's how we looked at the

10 previous document.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I could display the document from here,

12 if it would be helpful to anyone.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I would appreciate that.


15 Q. Could you find, sir, where I marked your name at the beginning of

16 the speech that you made on the 29th of September. Can we remind

17 ourselves on the 29th of September the war in Croatia had been going for

18 about two months. Correct?

19 A. Well, yes, I suppose so.

20 Q. There were problems because the Muslims and such Croats as you had

21 in Kljuc were not responding to mobilisation. Is that right?

22 A. Very few Muslims did not respond to mobilisation at that time.

23 More Muslims than not responded to mobilisation calls.

24 Q. I'm suggesting to you that there was a problem with mobilisation,

25 and that as a result of that, there was already a rise in ethnic tension

Page 22589

1 in Kljuc by September of 1991. Would you accept that?

2 A. I believe that at that time, no tensions existed.

3 Q. All right. Let's look at the speech that you made again. You

4 noted that this was the first occasion after World War II when we were

5 actually reminded of the genocide which the Ustashas committed against the

6 Serbian people. Rather late, but still in time to prevent history from

7 repeating itself in its most horrible form, a foul war was being waged in

8 one part of the country typified by the unleashing of a genocidal fascist

9 hysteria on the part of the hoards controlled by and serving the goals of

10 the pro-fascist and pro-Ustasha newly elected Croatian government.

11 Are those the expressions you used, Mr. Kalabic, when you made

12 this public speech?

13 A. You have not put this sentence in the right context. At least,

14 this is not what I have received in the interpretation. You have missed

15 the point, the meaning of this sentence, the way you interpreted it. What

16 I said was that a war is being waged in one part of the country. At least

17 this is what the forces of dark are declaring, and they are serving the

18 newly elected Ustasha government.

19 Q. But were you using those kind of expressions, Ustasha, genocidal,

20 fascist?

21 A. Yes, at that time, this is what I said.

22 Q. Why?

23 A. When I compared everything that was going on at the time with the

24 year 1941, both sets of developments were happening under the same flag

25 accompanied with the same symbols and involving the same players on the

Page 22590

1 scene.

2 Q. But didn't you think that to use this type of language to an

3 audience composed mainly, I suggest, of Serbs was likely to incite them to

4 take action against their non-Serb neighbours?

5 A. No. I did not intend to achieve such an effect, and I'm sure I

6 did not indeed achieve such an effect.

7 Q. But you and others like you, Mr. Kalabic, achieved just that

8 effect, didn't you, because later on Serbs literally took action against

9 their non-Serb neighbours?

10 A. No. We did not achieve that effect, and we did not take such

11 action. Actions were taken on the 27th of May by the Muslim population in

12 Kljuc, and not by the Serbian population. The Serbian part of the

13 population reacted to whatever happened on the 27th of May 1992.

14 Q. So everything that happened in Kljuc is as a result purely of

15 Serbs reacting against what the Muslims did on the 27th of May? That's

16 your evidence, is it, Mr. Kalabic?

17 A. That is a very complex question which would require a lot of

18 thinking, a lot of analysis, in order to -- for one to be able to give the

19 right answer.

20 Q. Well, I'll come to what actually did happen in Kljuc later on.

21 Mr. Brdjanin, while we're on the subject of rabble-rousing

22 speeches, Mr. Brdjanin made some of the more extreme speeches, didn't he?

23 A. I personally don't remember Mr. Brdjanin's speeches, but in those

24 times, those times of conflict and the dissolution of the Socialist

25 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, many politicians from all parties and all

Page 22591

1 peoples often used very strong and vehement speeches. And this refers to

2 all political parties and all nations, all peoples or ethnic groups, so

3 that one could not actually find a high-ranking politician who did not

4 speak in this way.

5 Q. Right. I'm asking you not about what politicians from other

6 parties did, I'm asking you specifically about Mr. Brdjanin. Did you hear

7 Mr. Brdjanin make speeches which were extreme nationalist speeches?

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, he has answered the question. He says

9 I personally don't remember Mr. Brdjanin's speeches. He was asked the

10 question. He answered it.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes, but he then went on to say all politicians and

12 all parties made it. So I'm repeating the question.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: That means that you're now remembering any of

14 Mr. Brdjanin's speeches. That's the only way I can allow it,

15 Mr. Ackerman. But otherwise you are right.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember any particular

17 speech because these speeches all resembled each other. And all the

18 politicians spoke alike so that I'm unable to remember a particular speech

19 by someone.


21 Q. So you as a politician used the same speeches, did you?

22 A. I was a low-ranking politician. And of course I did not have an

23 opportunity of giving speeches apart from this one instance that we have

24 analysed, and this can be seen from all the documentation presented here

25 yesterday, and you can see how I spoke and what I spoke.

Page 22592

1 Q. You were a member, first of all, of the Assembly of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina, and thereafter a member of the Assembly of the Serbian

3 Republic in Bosnia. Is that right?

4 A. Yes, I was.

5 Q. Did you attend the assembly of the 12th of May 1992 in Banja Luka?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Do you remember the speech made by Mr. Kalinic?

8 A. I don't remember that speech. But recently I've had an

9 opportunity of reading the speech in the media.

10 Q. The speech, and I can hand you a copy if you like, in which he

11 said - for the moment, I'm not going to give it to you unless you

12 insist --

13 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour. A number of times I referred to

14 it, and now I can't find it. Here, yes, I've found it.

15 Q. In which he said: "Have we chosen the option of war or the

16 option" -- usher, I'm not giving it to him. It's not on a document. "Or

17 the option of negotiation. I say this with a reason, and I must instantly

18 add that knowing who our enemies are, how perfidious they are, how they

19 cannot be trusted until they are physically, militarily, destroyed and

20 crushed which of course implies eliminating and liquidating their key

21 people." Did you hear that?

22 And Your Honour, I should have mentioned this is Exhibit P50.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We've seen it several times, Ms. Korner.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read this speech a few months ago

25 in the daily papers. But until then, I did not remember it, and I think

Page 22593

1 that at this session of the assembly, which was a very lengthy one, I went

2 out quite often, as did other deputies, to the coffee bar or elsewhere,

3 and I don't remember being present when Mr. Kalinic stated this.


5 Q. So do you remember whether you heard Mr. Brdjanin speak?

6 A. No, I don't remember that either. Although I read those speeches,

7 too, a few days ago. But I really don't remember that from the assembly

8 session. I assume that I was not in the room at the time.

9 Q. So what you're telling us is it just so happened that when the

10 most extreme speeches were made, you weren't there. That's what you're

11 telling us, is it?

12 A. No, that's not what I'm trying to say. What I'm trying to say is

13 that the assembly session was a very long one. Many speeches were made,

14 many deputies often went out. They went in and out. And I did this, too,

15 several times. So I assume that I was outside just at the moment those

16 speeches were being made.

17 Q. All right. I want to ask you now, please, to look at Exhibit P35.

18 I want to ask you about one of the sessions of the Assembly of the

19 Autonomous Region of Krajina.

20 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, you'll have to get that one, usher,

21 please. All right, we'll hand our copy over.

22 Q. This was the session held on the 29th of February 1992, the day

23 after there had been a session of the Serbian Assembly. Do you remember

24 that? There had been argument about the declaration of an independent

25 Krajina state, or a Republic of Krajina. Do you remember all that?

Page 22594

1 A. Can you give me some time to look at the document.

2 Q. Before you look at the document, do you remember there was an

3 argument which started in the Assembly of the Serbian Republic about the

4 declaration of an independent Krajina Republic. Do you remember all that?

5 A. I don't.

6 Q. Well -- all right. You read through the document.

7 A. Yes, I've read the document.

8 Q. Did you attend that meeting which was attended, as we can see, by

9 Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Koljevic?

10 A. I think I did attend that meeting, yes.

11 Q. All right. I'd like you to look, please, at the very last

12 conclusion, number 3. It comes just before the vote which reads:

13 "Establish immediately strict control of the territory of the Autonomous

14 Region of Krajina." I'd like you to explain to us, Mr. Kalabic, what was

15 meant by that.

16 A. I can't remember that anyone debated this issue at the meeting,

17 and I can't remember that such a conclusion was adopted at all at that

18 meeting, "establish immediately strict control of the territory of the

19 Autonomous Region of Krajina" that is.

20 Q. Wasn't it to do with a discussion about making sure that control

21 of the whole Krajina was in the hands of the Bosnian Serbs?

22 A. I can't know this.

23 Q. Well, you were there, Mr. Kalabic. This was perhaps one of the

24 most important meetings, wasn't it, held of the autonomous region

25 assembly? Are you really saying you have no recollection at all of what

Page 22595

1 this conclusion referred to?

2 A. At that meeting, what was most important was to agree on the

3 constitution and to see the situation of the autonomous region in that

4 constitution of the Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And those

5 were the issues debated that meeting.

6 Q. Yes. Well, are you saying that this conclusion, "establish

7 immediately strict control of the territory of the Autonomous Region of

8 Krajina" had no discussion at all and was just put in like that?

9 A. I think that what you have just said is correct.

10 Q. All right. You can hand that document back. Thank you.

11 Now, I asked you yesterday whether you had been to a meeting in

12 the Holiday Inn in Sarajevo, and you said you went on some occasions, but

13 you couldn't remember when. I'd like you to have a look, please, at a

14 receipt which is part of 2368.

15 Is that you staying in the Holiday Inn on the 14th of February and

16 leaving on the 15th of February?

17 A. Yes, this is my first and last name.

18 Q. All right. Do you remember attending a meeting at the Holiday Inn

19 on the 14th of February in which Mr. Karadzic made a long speech?

20 A. I attended meetings at the Holiday Inn on several occasions, and I

21 think that Karadzic attended all of those meetings. Without documents,

22 it's very hard for me to remember one particular meeting on one particular

23 occasion.

24 Q. All right. I'm going to show you now marked already the record of

25 the speech. This is P2383.14. Can you look at the part which is

Page 22596

1 highlighted in yellow. Part of a very long speech made by Mr. Karadzic.

2 And in the midst of that speech, he said this: "I have to say that we

3 must get the last drop of power into our hands wisely, in unison with

4 devotion and sacrifice in a humane way, of course, justly in a humane way,

5 towards both the Muslims and Croats who live there. That is especially

6 important, that they should not escape from our territories, but so that

7 not a bird can enter without our knowledge, that is, if you remember,

8 level 2. Do you know what I'm talking about?"

9 "We do, yes."

10 "So that is step number 2, the second level in smaller or bigger

11 variations but that is what you must follow now slowly. You must have

12 absolute control over who passes along your roads. What vehicle they

13 drive, for what purposes. At your disposal, you should have above all the

14 legal organs, the reserve police, and the regular police that must engage

15 in service according to the order of civilian authorities because most

16 municipalities have civilian authorities."

17 Now, in that speech, I suggest to you, Mr. Kalabic, Mr. Karadzic

18 was saying two things in this part of it. First, that you should move on

19 to the second stage of those instructions. And second, that the police

20 must act according to the instructions of civilian authorities. Do you

21 agree that is what he was saying?

22 A. Of course, I can't remember the details of his speech. But that's

23 what it says in this document.

24 Q. And did you go back to Kljuc and say that the second stage of

25 those instructions had to be implemented?

Page 22597

1 A. I went back to Kljuc, but I did not see this as imposing a

2 necessity of carrying out the second stage of the instructions, especially

3 not in Kljuc.

4 Q. Because the reasons that the Bosniaks, the Muslims left the

5 assembly, as they themselves said in the document you looked at yesterday,

6 Mr. Kalabic, I suggest, is because it was abundantly clear that you, the

7 Bosnian Serbs in Kljuc were preparing to seize power? That's why they

8 left, wasn't it? Nothing to do with construction.

9 A. No. No, that's not the way it was. They didn't walk out because

10 of that, because in practical terms, the Serbs and the Muslims were

11 sharing power in Kljuc. And yesterday, I explained this division of power

12 after the elections, and that's how it continued, until the 27th of May

13 1992. At a certain point, they walked out of the assembly, and in their

14 communique, they said they had walked out because of illegal building.

15 But three or four other reasons were given as to why they didn't want to

16 attend the assembly. And those reasons are very important. Illegal

17 building construction could not be a reason for anyone to walk of the

18 assembly and not come back again. There is a document, a communique of

19 theirs, which contains four other reasons. And if you wish, I will find

20 it for you. And they listed those in their communique.

21 After that, most of the assemblymen signed that communique. I'm

22 referring, of course, to the Muslims.

23 Q. Yes. Well, everybody can read what's in Exhibit P870, and I'm not

24 going to take you to it. But the situation in Kljuc was this, wasn't it:

25 That the Muslims and Serbs were almost an identical proportion of the

Page 22598

1 population in Kljuc?

2 A. The Serbs had a slight majority over the Muslims.

3 Q. And as you said exactly, after the multiparty elections, there was

4 virtually a sharing of power?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what I'm suggesting to you, Mr. Kalabic, is that it became

7 abundantly clear by the beginning of 1992 that you, the Serbs, were

8 proposing to take over complete control.

9 A. No. We were not proposing to take over complete control. We did

10 not need complete control. What we needed in Kljuc was agreement,

11 negotiations, not the rule of the Serbs over the Muslims in Kljuc. The

12 conflict broke out because the Muslim politicians at the Municipal

13 Assembly of Kljuc wanted a decision to be passed on the implementation of

14 the referendum for a sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Serbs were

15 afraid of a sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina, and in the constitution of

16 the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, this was quite

17 different. There was an article according to which two nations, any two

18 nations under that constitution could outvote the third one. And there

19 was a mechanism to prevent this.

20 However, if someone wanted a decision to be adopted on

21 implementing the referendum, they would first have to amend the

22 constitution. The constitution was not amended. It was disregarded, and

23 such a decision was adopted, and they wanted us to agree to this, to adopt

24 this decision at the assembly. The assemblymen of Kljuc did not want to

25 agree to this without an amendment to the constitution. That was the

Page 22599

1 essence of the issue.

2 Q. All right. By the time that the referendum was discussed, had

3 you, the Serbs in Kljuc, voted in the plebiscite? Can you just answer yes

4 or no, please.

5 A. Yes, but I think the answer is not complete if I just say yes.

6 Q. All right. If you can keep it short, what else do you want to

7 say?

8 A. The Serbs considered that it was necessary to have a plebiscite

9 among the Serbian people to see whether they were in favour of such a

10 change or not. Or rather, to see if they were in favour of the

11 implementation of such a referendum because all the peoples had to

12 participate in reaching decisions of this nature. A plebiscite, or rather

13 a referendum is something that all three peoples have to vote at. A

14 plebiscite was to express the opinion of one single people. And at the

15 plebiscite, the people said they did not want such a referendum because

16 they were afraid that the fundamental interests of the Serbian people

17 would be damaged by this, and that's why we had the plebiscite. We

18 thought that if we had the plebiscite, there would be some forces in the

19 world who would realise that the constitution had to be amended before the

20 referendum could be held. That's my explanation.

21 Q. All right. Can we just finish up this subject, please, and could

22 you just answers these questions, please, yes or no. The Serbs in the

23 Municipal Assembly in Kljuc refused to allow a referendum or to assist in

24 the setting up of the referendum in Kljuc. That's right, isn't it?

25 A. It seems to me that your question contains two questions, and

Page 22600

1 that's why it's difficult to answer with yes or no.

2 Q. All right, did you refuse to lend any assistance to the mechanics

3 required for the holding of the referendum in Kljuc?

4 A. We were asked to adopt a conclusion on the implementation of the

5 referendum at the assembly. And there was a standpoint from the Kljuc SDS

6 Executive Board which stated clearly that the Serbian people would not

7 take part in the referendum, but that we would in no way hinder the

8 implementation of the referendum in Kljuc publicly and peaceably. And

9 that's what is stated in the document and that's how it was.

10 Q. In fact, you put out warnings on radio and by way of leaflet to

11 prevent the Serbs taking part in the referendum. Do you agree with that?

12 A. I don't. Already at the plebiscite, the Serbs said they would not

13 vote in a referendum, so this issue had already been dealt with. There

14 was no need for us to influence anybody not to vote in a referendum. Serbs

15 could individually vote in a referendum if they so wanted. We did not

16 prevent them from doing so. We did not prevent the referendum from taking

17 place. We said that the referendum could be held peaceably, publicly in

18 the same premises where such events were usually held on issues that were

19 of local importance, so we did not try to talk anybody into voting, and we

20 also did not prevent anybody who wanted to vote in the referendum at all

21 costs.

22 Q. Mr. Kalabic, I want to move on, but I want to make it absolutely

23 clear to you. I suggest that is not right, and that indeed everything was

24 done that was possible to prevent the Bosniaks from having this

25 referendum. But can we move on, please. Could you look now, please, again

Page 22601

1 at the --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, what was that? Was that a speech, or was

4 that a question, or what was that?


6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I mean, I have to put my case to this

7 witness. I can't put a long answer like that go without making it clear

8 that's not what we accept.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Then you have to give him a chance to respond.

10 MS. KORNER: But he already had responded.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: You can't make a speech like that.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's proceed. In my system, that's perfectly

13 acceptable. So I'm not surprised that Ms. Korner proceeded that way, and

14 I'm not surprised that you stood up either. But let's move.


16 Q. Yes, could you look, please, at 876 again that you were shown

17 yesterday. B/C/S for the...

18 I want you to turn, please, to -- this is the meeting you were

19 shown of the SDS in Kljuc on the 18th of February. And you were asked

20 about this speech you made yesterday saying all party members from

21 distanced themselves from Vinko Stupar. All I want to ask you is this:

22 What did you mean by the words after you said: "As for the division of

23 Kljuc into cantons, it will proceed as we agree, but we shall not give up

24 anything that is ours." What did you mean by that?

25 You read this yesterday, Mr. Kalabic. What did you mean by the

Page 22602

1 words: "We shall not give up anything that is ours"? Is there a problem,

2 Mr. Kalabic?

3 A. No, no, there isn't. What I meant was if Stupar's idea were to be

4 carried out, then we had to be careful. So if such a thing was to happen,

5 then we had to make sure that if the cantonisation were to take place,

6 that each people should be given what they are entitled to. So if this

7 was to be done, there should have been a previous agreement. Although it

8 was a priori rejected, what Mr. Stupar proposed at one of the meetings.

9 Q. What did you consider that you were entitled to as the Serbs?

10 A. I meant it was our general opinion in Kljuc that we were entitled

11 to a joint life with Muslims and Croats in Kljuc Municipality, that we

12 were entitled to peace, and that we were entitled to promote our national

13 interests through the existence of some sort of a Yugoslavia. This is

14 what I had in mind.

15 Q. So nothing to do with land that you considered to be Serbian for

16 whatever reason?

17 A. I absolutely never reduced myself to thinking what piece of land

18 was Serbian, what piece of land was Croatian, what piece of land was

19 Muslim.

20 Q. I see. So if other politicians, for example let's take Mr.

21 Klickovic in Krupa talked about that, that wasn't something that you

22 considered was a proper thing?

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, there's two questions there. I

24 think it's perfectly okay to ask him if that's a proper thing, but I don't

25 know that he knows whether Mr. Klickovic ever said anything about that or

Page 22603

1 not. If you said yes to that question, he'd be agreeing that

2 Mr. Klickovic spoke of that. And I hope he knows that.


4 Q. Were you present at the 12th of May assembly when Mr. Klickovic

5 spoke about that?

6 A. I don't remember Mr. Klickovic's speech. At that time, I didn't

7 know him all that well. We were just nodding acquaintances, I would say.

8 Q. Fine. As I say, I don't want to waste any more of my valuable

9 time on this, so can you just give me the document, please.

10 Now, is it your position that at the beginning of May you and

11 Mr. Banjac and the two Kondics were still trying to maintain peace and

12 harmony among nationalities in Kljuc?

13 A. Yes. We were working on that, not only the three of us, because I

14 don't consider myself as being one of the leading figures. It was the

15 executive board of the SDS and the SDS and the deputies of the municipal

16 assembly of both the Serbian ethnicity and of the opposition. All were

17 working on this issue, on the issue of preserving peace in Kljuc.

18 Q. Would you describe yourself as a Serb extremist?

19 A. I didn't understand your question.

20 Q. Would you call yourself a Serb extremist, an extreme nationalist

21 Serb?

22 A. No. I have never been an extremist. I have never been a

23 nationalist. To the contrary, I am convinced that I'm a peaceful, quiet,

24 moderate person, and that I am a truly democratic person.

25 Q. Would you describe either Mr. Banjac, Mr. Kondic,

Page 22604

1 Mr. Veljko Kondic, or Mr. Vinko Kondic, any one of those three, as an

2 extreme nationalist Serb?

3 A. Knowing these people, I would really not use this term to describe

4 their personalities.

5 Q. Very well. I'd like you to have now a look at a series of reports

6 coming from the 1st Krajina Corps with whom you were familiar. First of

7 all, Exhibit P898. We've marked the B/C/S, paragraph 6. It's a report

8 dated the 4th of May. It's on the second page of the English.

9 The state of morale. "We will elaborate on the state of combat

10 morale in more detail in our report for the month of April, while we stand

11 completely by the assessments we have made in our reports so far.

12 "Could you please intervene through the Krajina government to

13 exert its influence on representatives of the authorities in Kljuc.

14 Serbian extremism is increasingly present there induced by the official

15 organs of authority since the president of the municipality is asking to

16 have his own army which he would use as he sees fit. This must be

17 resolved urgently." The president of the municipality was Mr. Banjac,

18 wasn't it?

19 A. In Kljuc, the president of the municipality was Mr. Jovo Banjac.

20 However, I never heard of such statements from Mr. Jovo Banjac. I see

21 this document for the first time. I assume that it was drafted based on

22 their assumptions, their views, or the needs that they felt at the time

23 when they were drafting this document.

24 Q. Well, first of all, you knew Colonel Galic, didn't you?

25 A. I first met Colonel Galic - I can't remember the date - but it was

Page 22605

1 in the barracks near Mrkonjic Grad. The name of that barracks is Kula,

2 and it was not --

3 Q. I'm going to stop you, please, Mr. Kalabic, because of the time.

4 I want to know simply in May of 1992 did you know Colonel Galic?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Answer yes or no.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 27th of May, in the office of

7 the president of the municipal assembly, we got acquainted a bit better.

8 Up to then, he was just a colonel, and I was a small-time politician.


10 Q. All right. Can you then tell us who in your view Colonel Galic

11 was referring to as the "official organs of authority who were encouraging

12 or inducing Serb extremism"? Or is it your view that Colonel Galic has

13 got this completely wrong? There was nobody like that?

14 A. At that time, the official organs of the government were

15 President Jovo, vice-president Pilipovic, the president of the Executive

16 Board Egrlic, and the vice-president of the Executive Board Tihomir Dakic.

17 And I really can't specify who Colonel Galic was referring to. Was he

18 referring to the administrative powers or just one part of the

19 authorities?

20 Q. Wasn't, in fact, Mr. Banjac attempting to, as it's stated here,

21 have his own army?

22 A. This is not true.

23 Q. All right. You can hand that document back. I'd like you to have

24 a look at a document from the next day, please. P889. I'm sorry, 899.

25 B/C/S highlighted.

Page 22606

1 This was actually addressed to the 30th Partisan Brigade, and I

2 accept you wouldn't have seen this before. Under his -- from -- for

3 General Talic, under "order," two, "submit a detailed report on the aim of

4 the demonstration of Serbian extremism in Kljuc and Donji Vakuf and to

5 what agree it was initiated by official organs. The deadline for this is

6 1000 hours on 7 May."

7 What demonstration of Serbian extremism had taken place in Kljuc

8 on the 7th of May? Mr. Kalabic.

9 A. Allow me some time. In this document, I don't see that there were

10 any demonstrations. At that time, there were no demonstrations. And this

11 document absolutely doesn't say that there were any demonstrations.

12 Q. All right. Look, please, at the next document dated the 7th of

13 May, DB273, please. And I'll hand over...

14 A. In this document, there is, however, something that could be

15 discussed.

16 Q. Yes. Well, I'm sorry. If Mr. Ackerman wants to discuss it with

17 you in re-examination, I'm sure he will, but I need to move on.

18 Will you look, please, this is a combat report of the 7th of May.

19 Paragraph number 3. "Situation on the ground - highlighted - the Serbs in

20 the Kljuc Municipality region want to assert their authority over the

21 entire area and are demanding that the battalions 3-1 of the 30th Partisan

22 Division to carry out this task." What was happening, wasn't it, Mr.

23 Kalabic, was that you, Mr. Banjac, and others were planning to seize

24 complete control of Kljuc?

25 A. No, your statement is wrong.

Page 22607

1 Q. We're going to look in a moment what did happen on the 7th. You

2 can hand that back, thank you.

3 Finally on this topic a letter -- sorry, it's P902. It's a letter

4 from General Talic dated the 8th of May addressed to the Autonomous Region

5 of Krajina Assembly Banja Luka. "Dear sir," and then I'm going to skip

6 the first two paragraphs. "We would have failed in these efforts had it

7 not been for the high level of cooperation between the military and

8 civilian authorities which we have no doubt shall continue."

9 Read the letter to yourself, and then I'm going to ask you about

10 this.

11 Now, Mr. Kalabic, what General Talic says is there is a presence

12 in the municipality of Kljuc of extremism and disregard for anything which

13 is not Serbian. Do you agree with that?

14 A. I don't agree with that. I really did not know these people, and

15 I could not influence the positions of either Mr. Talic or anybody from

16 the army, so somebody from the security perceived the situation in their

17 own way and drafted letters. Sometimes letters were written in order for

18 people to create certain positions in the army. I see this for the first

19 time, and the situation in Kljuc was not like this. Mr. Jovo Banjac

20 weighed 160 kilos. He didn't walk too well. He was over 60. And he was

21 simply not such a person. And his command was out of the question. He

22 could hardly move. These are just fabrications. Obviously, there was a

23 problem when people were mobilised and when they left for the front line.

24 It was a problem to keep people there for a longer time. People wanted to

25 go home, to return home. And I believe that Jovo Banjac advocated a human

Page 22608

1 approach to every single soldier, that he wanted them to be able to go

2 home to visit their family. But as to Mr. Jovo Banjac and his army, it's

3 ridiculous. Mr. Banjac did not have his army, and before this 27th of May

4 in the territory of Kljuc there were no units that would be moving about,

5 that would be Chetnik units, or anybody else's units for which we didn't

6 know. So this is just a fabrication.

7 Q. You can hand that document back.

8 Now, let's have a look what did happen on the 7th of May, shall

9 we, in Kljuc. Could you have, please, Exhibit P171.

10 A. This is a public announcement made by the Crisis Staff of the

11 Kljuc Municipality. "The Crisis Staff of the Kljuc Municipality informs

12 citizens that yesterday on the 7th of May certain changes have been made

13 in the Kljuc public security station concerning uniforms of the police

14 employees and the signing of a solemn oath."

15 And then it goes on to explain that "the police will now be

16 wearing berets with the Serbian flag; militia written in Cyrillic script.

17 The Serbian flag will be displayed with the Yugoslavia flag as a symbol

18 signifying the fact that Kljuc Municipality is now a part of the

19 Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina and the Serbian Republic.

20 "It is stated that the very fact of replacing the symbols will

21 not threaten the livelihood the workers who did not sign the solemn oath",

22 et cetera.

23 And then it goes on to say: "Citizens of the Kljuc Municipality

24 know that the Municipal Assembly reached the decision about it joining the

25 Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina. The Kljuc Municipality will

Page 22609

1 automatically be obliged to implement laws and decisions reached by the

2 Assembly of the Serbian Republic and the Assembly of the Autonomous

3 Region." And it goes on to explain how the changes should have been

4 implemented earlier.

5 And if we turn over in the English: "All authorities in our

6 municipality have postponed the implementation of this task until

7 yesterday in order to ensure its realisation in the most peaceful way

8 possible."

9 "The Crisis Staff considers that after the implemented changes

10 the authorities in the Municipal Assembly should continue with the regular

11 work, but it is noted that all decisions will be reached and all jobs

12 carried out in accordance with the regulations and decisions of the

13 authorities of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina and the Serbian

14 Republic."

15 And then it goes on to invite all citizens of the

16 Kljuc Municipality to accept the changes and so on and so forth.

17 What happened on the 7th of May was that unilaterally you, the

18 Serbs took over the municipality, didn't you?

19 A. I don't think so. The assemblymen from the Muslim bloc had

20 already walked out and had established their own assembly and had

21 established the Bosnian Municipality of Kljuc. This decision was a

22 follow up, and it was based on the constitution of the Serbian Republic of

23 Bosnia and Herzegovina which had already been adopted by the Assembly of

24 the Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 Of all the municipalities in the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

Page 22610

1 Herzegovina, Kljuc was the last one to do so. We were the last. All the

2 others had done it before us.

3 Q. You don't agree, then, that what happened on the 7th of May by

4 replacing the uniform of the police, putting up Serbian flags, and making

5 people take a loyalty oath was in any sense a takeover?

6 A. I didn't hear the interpretation.

7 Q. You do not agree --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see if he is receiving. Can you receive me

9 now in your own language? There is something wrong, usher. Could you

10 help -- are you receiving interpretation now?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I gently to repeat the question again,

13 Ms. Korner.


15 Q. You didn't just say that to give you time to think, did you?

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object to that.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection sustained, Mr. Ackerman.


19 Q. You do not agree that what is described as happening in this

20 document was a takeover?

21 A. I don't agree. I've explained that the assemblymen from the

22 Muslim bloc had established their own municipality. They held meetings.

23 They issued statements from their own meetings, and you have them, I'm

24 sure.

25 Q. Right, Mr. Kalabic, you don't have to give the explanation again.

Page 22611

1 You don't agree.

2 Do you agree that, by this stage, there had been moved on to the

3 territory of Kljuc a large number of military?

4 A. No. There were no troops transferred to the territory of Kljuc.

5 The troops arrived only after the 27th of May.

6 Q. Can you tell me, then, please, what the paragraph that starts:

7 "Citizens are notified that the increased presence of armed forces on the

8 territory of the municipality is by no means an attack on the freedom and

9 safety of any of the nationalities." What does that refer to, then?

10 A. The increased presence of armed forces did not exist in the

11 Municipality of Kljuc, if you're referring to the army, however, there was

12 the police in Kljuc if that is what is referred to here. And the police

13 had an increased level of readiness. They were guarding the key

14 facilities, the municipal building. So I believe that what is referred to

15 here is the police.

16 Q. All right. Can you have a look, please, at another document --

17 all right.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we need to stop here.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, could we make it 15 minutes instead of

20 20, do you think.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I usually get problems with --

22 MS. KORNER: No.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we'll leave it 20 minutes, and then we'll

24 see how it goes.

25 Mr. Kalabic, we're going to have a short break of 20 minutes.

Page 22612

1 Thank you.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, Ms. Korner, you may proceed.

5 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour. We seem to have lost

6 everybody now, though.

7 Q. I want you to have a look, please, at another document.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, the AV is not there.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Pardon?

10 MS. KORNER: Sorry, something?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is missing?

12 THE REGISTRAR: AV director, so we cannot broadcast.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Where is he or where is she?

14 MS. KORNER: With the best will in the world, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We have to wait. And can anyone... It's okay. I

16 see that there are no further problems:

17 I see that there are no further problems. So I thank everyone for

18 being so punctual. You may proceed, Ms. Korner.

19 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

20 Q. Could you have a look, please, at Exhibit P633. I see the B/C/S

21 is unfortunately on the back of...

22 This is an undated order as far as we can see, but signed by

23 Commander Colonel Basara. And we can see that it's some time before the

24 7th, 8th of May because under paragraph 7 it says: "Provide each soldier

25 engaged on 7th, 8th of May with a cooked dinner on the 8th of May." If we

Page 22613

1 look at the top, please: "Because of the newly arisen situation in the

2 territory of the Kljuc Municipality, the takeover and declaration of the

3 Serbian Municipality of Kljuc, which may result in interethnic clashes..."

4 I ask you again, Mr. Kalabic, is not what happened on the 7th of

5 May in Kljuc a takeover of power by you, the Serbs?

6 A. No. This did not happen because both before and after it was

7 Mr. Jovo Banjac who was the president of the assembly.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That doesn't seem to answer the question, to me, at

9 least. I don't know if you want to put it again Ms. Korner or to leave

10 it. And the Trial Chamber will draw its own conclusions.

11 MS. KORNER: I'm going to leave it, Your Honour. We could go on

12 for quite a long time on this, but I want to deal with --

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, the answer sounds to me like he

14 didn't understand the question because it didn't relate to the question at

15 all.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, if that is the case, I will repeat the

17 question to him myself, and perhaps -- Mr. Kalabic, you were read over the

18 first part, the introduction of that -- of this document which

19 specifically refers to takeover of the Serbian Municipality of Kljuc. And

20 it's being suggested to you that indeed there was a takeover by the Serbs

21 of the Municipality of Kljuc. Do you agree with that or not?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The colonel, when he mentioned the

23 words "takeover of power," probably meant changing the insignia on the

24 police uniforms because that's the only thing that happened on the 7th of

25 May. Nothing else happened on the 7th of May.

Page 22614

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I suggest you proceed, Ms. Korner.

2 MS. KORNER: Absolutely.

3 Q. Now, this whole order, Mr. Kalabic, is concerned with placing

4 troops in Kljuc. As was described in that communique that the crisis

5 staff issued, there were large numbers of troops being moved on to Kljuc

6 territory or around Kljuc territory at the beginning of May. That's

7 right, isn't it?

8 A. No, that's not right. And that's not what it said in the

9 communique.

10 Q. Are you saying that you were wholly unaware that brigades of the

11 1st Krajina Corps - it was still the 5th at the beginning of May - were

12 being moved on to the territory of Kljuc and around Kljuc?

13 A. I don't know, and I never knew that something like this happened.

14 I did not see any brigades in Kljuc.

15 Q. All right. I want you to be absolutely clear on this. It is your

16 evidence, is it, that you were never told and never heard that troops

17 under the command of General Talic's subordinates were being moved into

18 and around Kljuc?

19 A. No, I didn't know about this. And I didn't see anything like that

20 happen.

21 Q. All right. Thank you. You can give us that document back.

22 Could you have back, please, Document Exhibit P51 that you were

23 shown yesterday. This was the meeting with the presidents of the

24 municipalities in the zone of responsibility of the division dated the

25 14th of May, two days after the assembly had been held. And as you've

Page 22615

1 already agreed, you were present at the meeting. You're number 11 on the

2 list.

3 Now, can you turn to the part where Kljuc was discussed. And

4 we'll have the English on the ELMO now. "After the partial takeover of

5 power, the situation in the territory of Kljuc Municipality is relatively

6 calm. At the time of the takeover of power, units from the 9th Corps,

7 Laniste, and the 5th Corps (a battalion of the 6th Partisan Brigade and

8 the 3rd Battalion of the 1st Partisan Brigade) were securing Kljuc."

9 Mr. Kalabic, how did you manage to tell the Court about a minute

10 ago that you knew nothing of troops being put into Kljuc?

11 A. Previously, I said that an engineers platoon or regiment, excuse

12 me, was transferred from Knin to the municipalities of Kljuc and Bosanski

13 Petrovac. This engineers regiment was located on the border between these

14 two municipalities in a commercial facility. And this regiment had

15 arrived earlier, and it was there. As far as I know, it didn't go

16 anywhere from that place.

17 Q. I'll read you back your last answer. "I want you to be absolutely

18 clear on this. Is it your evidence that you were never told and never

19 heard that the troops under the command of General Talic's subordinates

20 would be moved into and around Kljuc."

21 "No, I didn't know about this and I didn't see anything like this

22 happen."

23 You did know, Mr. Kalabic, because you were at the meeting where

24 it was discussed.

25 A. I don't see the document which says that it was agreed that these

Page 22616

1 units should be transferred to the vicinity of Kljuc. If you think that

2 Laniste is close to Kljuc or Kula, that's where certain units were. If

3 the soldiers from Kljuc who were mobilised and went to the front at

4 Kupres, if you're referring to that, then those soldiers were only at

5 Kupres. Apart from soldiers who were on leave and came to visit their

6 families in Kljuc, I really don't know anything about other troops, and I

7 didn't know at the time. And that is my correct reply.

8 Q. I'll ask you one more time: When you heard it being talked about

9 at the meeting that units from the 9th Corps, the 5th Corps were securing

10 Kljuc, what did you think that meant?

11 A. I really can't remember now what I thought at that point in time.

12 But certainly this would enhance security in Kljuc.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it's page 35, line 14, 15 -- 14. It

15 says "certain units." I'm told what he said was "the engineer regiment

16 was," not "certain units were."

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you, Mr. Ackerman.


19 Q. Isn't the truth this, Mr. Kalabic, to your certain knowledge then

20 and I suggest now, that the army and the police and the politicians

21 cooperated in this takeover of power? Isn't that the truth, Mr. Kalabic?

22 A. I still abide by the statement that there was no takeover of

23 power, but only changing of the insignia prescribed by the constitution of

24 the -- of the constitution of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina. So this refers to insignia on police uniforms. To take over

Page 22617

1 power, we would have had to replace the president, Jovo, and other

2 officials in the municipal assembly. That, in my view, is who the

3 authorities were, not the police.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But Mr. Kalabic, because I expect every bit of your

5 evidence to make sense, if it is being suggested to you that the Serbs

6 took over power, it would make absolutely no sense at all to say that the

7 first thing that they should have done is to replace themselves or to

8 replace their leaders. If the Serbs wanted to take power and take over

9 the municipality of Kljuc, certainly that would be the last thing they

10 would do and not the first thing. And what this document says is that

11 "at the time of the takeover of power..."

12 MS. KORNER: Can I make it absolutely clear -- sorry.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: These three battalions or whatever they are were

14 securing Kljuc.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to make this absolutely clear.

16 And I'm basing this -- I'm not going to show the next document, P746.

17 Q. I'm suggesting to you, Mr. Kalabic, that over a period of three

18 days, between the 7th and the 10th of May, the parts of the 1st and 3rd

19 Battalions of the 6th Brigade, an intervention platoon, a police platoon,

20 and a reconnaissance platoon all acted together in taking over power. And

21 by that, I mean erecting these flags, guarding these buildings, everything

22 that you've already mentioned. All done as a takeover of power to prevent

23 the Muslims having any kind of say in the government or in freedom of

24 movement. Do you understand that? Because that is what I am suggesting

25 to you actually happened. That's what happened, isn't it, Mr. Kalabic?

Page 22618

1 A. What happened was what I said. The police changed the insignia on

2 police uniforms, and if this implies a takeover of power, then that's what

3 happened. Mr. Filipovic continued to come to the municipal assembly. He

4 would sit and talk to Mr. Jovo Banjac. There were conversations and

5 negotiations that took place, talks. And I really had no information

6 about certain units being around Kljuc, except for the ones I've

7 enumerated. I know about Laniste. I know that the regiment was there. I

8 know about Kula, between Kljuc and Mrkonjic Grad. There was a barracks

9 there that had always been there and is still there today. As for army

10 activities in Kljuc, I wasn't aware of them.

11 Q. Are you saying, then, finally, because I want to move on, that

12 you didn't hear this particular item on the agenda being discussed? It's

13 either yes or no or I can't remember, please, Mr. Kalabic.

14 A. I really can't remember what was said at that meeting. But I know

15 there was discussion on several occasions on changing the insignia on

16 police uniforms and I know that --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop, stop.


19 Q. No, Mr. Kalabic. I'm talking about the meeting of the 14th of May

20 attended by yourself, Mr. Banjac, and various other presidents of

21 municipalities, and Colonel Galic. At that meeting, are you saying you

22 did not hear Kljuc being discussed --

23 A. I can't remember now that this topic was discussed.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move, Ms. Korner.

Page 22619

1 MS. KORNER: I am.

2 Q. Now, you told us that Mr. Filipovic came to the municipal building

3 to negotiate. He came to negotiate about what was going to happen to the

4 Muslims, didn't he?

5 A. I don't know what you mean.

6 Q. That the Muslims were absolutely petrified as to what was going to

7 happen to them, weren't they?

8 A. The Muslims were organised, and I'm not sure that they were

9 petrified.

10 Q. And the moment that this takeover took place, the police, let's

11 deal with them for the moment, they all -- all non-Serb police officers

12 lost their jobs immediately, didn't they?

13 A. Nobody lost their job. Everybody [Realtime transcript read in

14 error "everything"] was offered the opportunity of staying on. But only

15 one Croatian policeman accepted the offer.

16 Q. They could only stay on if they took an oath of loyalty to the

17 Serbian Republic. That's right, isn't it?

18 A. Yes, that's correct. That was required.

19 Q. Why should Muslim police officers take an oath of loyalty to the

20 Serbian Republic?

21 A. I am not able to know this because I didn't take part in most of

22 those issues in connection with the police. There was a hierarchy from

23 the public security centre in Banja Luka going down to a police station

24 such as the one in Kljuc.

25 Q. No, I'm asking you why a Muslim police officer should take an oath

Page 22620

1 to the Serbian Republic. Do you understand the question, Mr. Kalabic?

2 A. I do understand the question, but really, I don't know how to

3 answer it.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: 39, 2, the word was everybody, not everything.

6 Everybody was offered the opportunity of staying on.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman. That makes sense.


9 Q. After the 7th of May, the situation was this, wasn't it: That

10 you, the politicians, together with the police and the army were just

11 waiting for an excuse to drive the Muslims out of Kljuc?

12 A. No, that's not correct.

13 Q. I want you to look, please, now at P196. This is the minutes of

14 the meeting of the crisis staff held on the 13th, 14th of May. For some

15 reason, your name is in handwriting at the top. And it appears that you

16 were -- and Mr. Bajic from absent from the meeting of the 13th, but there,

17 presumably, on the 14th.

18 The agenda: "Number one, adoption of decisions (conclusions) on

19 behalf of Kljuc Municipality pursuant to the decisions of the Autonomous

20 Region of Krajina Crisis Staff." Mr. Banjac informed the members of the

21 conclusions adopted by the crisis staff on the 11th -- of the regional

22 crisis staff on the 11th of May. It's right, isn't it, that both you and

23 Mr. Banjac attended the meetings of the regional crisis staff?

24 A. I can't remember whether I attended the meeting or not.

25 Q. No, I don't mean this particular meeting, but meetings in general.

Page 22621

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Of the regional crisis staff. Not of the Kljuc

2 Crisis Staff, of the regional crisis staff. It's being suggested to you

3 that you and Mr. Banjac attended those meetings on a regular basis.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Jovo Banjac was a

5 member of the crisis staff as the president of the municipality. But I

6 was not a member of the crisis staff, and probably it so happened that

7 sometimes I would attend those meetings.


9 Q. All right. Item number 1 of the conclusions: "The deadline for

10 the surrender of illegally acquired weapons will be extended until

11 midnight on the 14th of May 1992."

12 Now, do you remember that there was a deadline issued to the

13 Muslims and the Croats, the few Croats in Kljuc to surrender weapons?

14 A. At the meeting when Mr. Jovo Banjac is reported as discussing, I

15 can't remember this conclusion at all.

16 Q. No. There was, was there not - leave aside the -- this particular

17 meeting - a deadline issued to the Muslims and Croats that they had to

18 surrender weapons to the police?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm confused, perhaps. I can't see where this says

22 "Muslims and Croats."

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, there you are, right, but the question is what

24 it is. It's being suggested and put to the witness that the decision

25 applied only to Muslims and Croats.

Page 22622

1 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, I really object to these type of

2 objections because he's giving the witness the answer.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you're right.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I think she was trying to get

5 the witness to believe this said Muslims and Croats, and it -- when it

6 doesn't say that. And if she was misleading the witness, it's perfectly

7 proper for me to point it out.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness knows how to read.


10 Q. Mr. Kalabic, in Kljuc over the radio and by other means a deadline

11 for the surrender of weapons was given, was it not, to Muslims and Croats?

12 And to make it absolutely clear, and not to Serbs.

13 Mr. Kalabic, this has got nothing to do now with the document, I'm

14 asking you now generally whether as a resident of Kljuc --

15 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't remember any such

16 thing. At that time, I really don't remember that this happened at that

17 time.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't remember. In other words, let's make this

19 clear: You're not aware or you don't remember that a disarmament of --

20 that a disarmament took place in Kljuc at any time? Around about the

21 period we're talking about? Is that your position?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was disarmament in Kljuc after

23 the 27th May, not before that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And was that the disarmament of Muslims and Croats?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everybody who possessed illegal

Page 22623

1 weapons and military uniforms were asked to return them. That was one of

2 the orders of the crisis staff.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, yes, Ms. Korner.


5 Q. The only people, Mr. Kalabic, who were ordered to surrender

6 weapons or made to surrender weapons were the Muslims and Croats. That's

7 the truth of the situation, isn't it?

8 A. I don't think so.

9 Q. And as we can see from item number 2, you were present at this

10 meeting because you and Mr. Banjac advised the members of the crisis staff

11 of the positions on the security situation in Kljuc Municipality. Do you

12 remember what you said there?

13 A. I don't remember that I really attended that meeting. But even if

14 I did attend it, I did not engage in any discussions there.

15 Q. I'm sorry. What does item 2 say?

16 A. Help me find the item that you're talking about. Is that one of

17 the conclusions?

18 Q. Just before we get to the conclusion under item 2, do you see your

19 name?

20 MS. KORNER: All right, give it. Usher, if you give it to me.

21 It's just under the -- it's shortly under the highlighted section. Item

22 2, AD 2.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to become more proficient in the language,

24 Ms. Korner.

25 MS. KORNER: It's actually about six lines under the highlighted

Page 22624












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 22624 to 22635.













Page 22636

1 portion.

2 Q. Mr. Kalabic, I don't want to spend --

3 A. I really don't remember having said anything about this issue in

4 this part of the meeting. But I suppose that the president did. He was

5 the leading figure in Kljuc, and he was a member of the crisis staff.

6 So...

7 Q. And you were just an unimportant member, were you, Mr. Kalabic?

8 A. I was not a member of the crisis staff in Banja Luka. Mr. Jovo

9 Banjac was. I would only sometimes, very rarely, attend one of its

10 meetings. So I was not a member, either a valuable or an invaluable

11 member. I was simply not a member.

12 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Kalabic. If you very rarely attended and you

13 weren't a member, how could you possibly tell the Court yesterday: "The

14 decisions of the crisis staff, the regional crisis staff, if they existed,

15 did not reach us in Kljuc. And we did not implement them." Page 74 of

16 yesterday's LiveNote.

17 A. Yes. That was the situation in earlier times. We saw a telex

18 with a document which had never reached us. And this document serves to

19 prove my statement.

20 Q. Mr. Kalabic, are you really -- are you making these things up as

21 you go along?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour --

23 MS. KORNER: That is a proper question, Your Honour.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: I object to it. It might be a proper question, but

25 I have an objection to it. First of all, I think the witness has become

Page 22637

1 confused. I think he may believe the document he is looking at is from

2 the Regional Crisis Staff and not the Kljuc Crisis Staff. And the

3 question and answer immediately preceding this current one, I think, is

4 clear that the question and the answer are totally unrelated to each

5 other, and I think it deals with confusion. So that's my objection.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, objection overruled, Mr. Ackerman, but I will

7 try and help your witness.

8 Mr. Kalabic, let's bring this to an end. Yesterday, you made a

9 statement to the effect that you wanted to make us believe you in stating

10 that the decisions of the crisis staff of the ARK, the ARK Crisis Staff,

11 couldn't have even been implemented in Kljuc Municipality because they

12 never reached you over there. Now we have a document which is essentially

13 a Kljuc document in which you are also reported to have been at least

14 partly present which specifically refers to decisions taken by the ARK

15 Crisis Staff and the implementation in the Kljuc Municipality.

16 And it's being suggested to you that you're trying to hide

17 something from us or that you're trying to go around in circles not to

18 answer a question which is being put to you as the obvious. What's your

19 position? You have in front of you a document which specifically would

20 convict what you stated yesterday. Yesterday, you didn't say "we did not

21 have reports on what's being decided by the ARK Crisis Staff before this

22 date, but we had them afterwards." You just said that you never had them.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct that during a certain

24 period of time those conclusions from the ARK never reached

25 President Jovo Banjac, and therefore they could not be considered because

Page 22638

1 one document proved that they arrived by way of telexes, and this telex

2 was never handed to Mr. Jovo Banjac.

3 This specific document that we are discussing now is probably

4 something that Mr. Jovo Banjac brought from Banja Luka from this meeting,

5 and I'm sure that on the 13th and on the 14th, the crisis staff meeting

6 was held in the municipality, and it is obvious that I was not present at

7 that meeting on the 13th. Whether I was present on the 14th, I can't

8 remember. But even if I was present, there was no reason for me to engage

9 in any discussions or to inform members of the crisis staff about the

10 decisions passed by the regional crisis staff because there was a person

11 there who was a member of the crisis staff. So it was his duty to do

12 that. That's probably why I cannot remember the specific date and the

13 specific document and the specific conclusions.

14 This is my answer, and I don't see any other reason for me to say

15 anything else.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.


18 Q. Do you accept that the document shows that you were there and that

19 you spoke?

20 A. It doesn't say anywhere in the document that I spoke, or at least

21 I haven't been able to find it.

22 Q. Okay. Hand me the document back, please.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Even if you give it to me, I will mark it.

24 MS. KORNER: I don't, Your Honour, I really -- I'm concerned

25 that -- I still have a lot to get through.

Page 22639

1 Q. Now, please, have a look at a document six days later, P203.

2 Do you agree this bears the stamp of the Kljuc Municipality and

3 it's signed, this document? Mr. Kalabic, please answer the question.

4 A. Yes, there is a stamp, and the document is signed. Not by the

5 president, Mr. Jovo Banjac, but by somebody else.

6 Q. Okay. Does that say that "at the meeting of the 20th of May 1992,

7 the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region adopted amongst others the

8 following conclusions," and it sets out four conclusions?

9 MS. KORNER: And Your Honours --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document is absolutely unclear

11 to me because the heading says that this is the Crisis Staff of the

12 Autonomous Region from Banja Luka, and the stamp is that of the Kljuc

13 Municipality, and the signature is of somebody who is not

14 President Jovo Banjac. It is impossible for a document originating from

15 the autonomous region to be stamped with the stamp from the municipality.


17 Q. Because, Mr. Kalabic, what was happening was the Kljuc

18 Municipality was publicising the conclusions reached by the Autonomous

19 Region Crisis Staff, wasn't it, issuing its own document?

20 MS. KORNER: And Your Honours, it's in P227, it's item number 13

21 on the Gazette.

22 Q. I refer you to the 20th of May meeting of the regional crisis

23 staff as number 13, P227. That's what's happening, isn't it, Mr. Kalabic?

24 A. I've said that I am really not clear on this document. I cannot

25 comment on it because in the heading, it says that the document is of the

Page 22640

1 regional staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Kalabic, Mr. Kalabic. Now, it will take some

3 guts and some daring to tell me that this is the heading. Is this a

4 heading, or is this the address of the person or persons or institution to

5 which the document is addressed? I'm very surprised that a person of your

6 intelligence and your education is confused by this document. Or could be

7 confused by that document. A heading is a heading, and that is the

8 details of the addressee.


10 Q. All right. You can hand the document back, Mr. Kalabic. I want

11 you now to have a look at P208, which you saw yesterday.

12 Mr. Kalabic, you can give the document back to the usher. This is

13 the document that you saw yesterday, so you don't need to read through it

14 again because you also saw it with Mr. Ackerman before you testified.

15 "Crisis staff meeting of the 27th of May 1992." You say that was the

16 meeting where you were all shocked and -- I think I better find your exact

17 words. "The people who attended this meeting - this is page 53 of the

18 LiveNote - terribly afraid and felt great uncertainty. They displayed, or

19 rather they knew, they bore enormous responsibility but they did not have

20 the strength to take any action that might prevent the further escalation

21 of negative events in the area of Kljuc Municipality."

22 Now, leaving aside item number 1, which I'll come back to, item

23 number 2 deals with the recommendation for the municipality judges and

24 prosecutor. Item number 3: "Remove all non-Serbian personnel from

25 positions which allow independent decision-making and securing property."

Page 22641

1 I'll come back to that in a moment.

2 "Disarmament of paramilitary formations is approved in accordance

3 with the plan that will be proposed."

4 Refugees. Regional funds. Recommendation of the regional crisis

5 staff that minimum wage is accepted. War tax. Television.

6 And then paragraph 10, which we have been through, and so on.

7 Are you really saying these were the decisions that were made by

8 this afraid, uncertain set of people? Do you understand what I mean,

9 Mr. Kalabic? They're fairly mundane, boring decisions, the lot of them.

10 A. Yes, those were decisions by the crisis staff.

11 Q. All right. As far as item number 1 is concerned, you say that --

12 this is what you said yesterday about it. "I have to admit that we

13 suddenly realised that at one time, an autonomous region had been formed,

14 and this autonomous region had a crisis staff. Not a single conclusion of

15 the crisis staff was analysed by us, but in this situation, uncertainty,

16 we put on the agenda the fact that we were giving legitimacy to the

17 conclusions that we had never seen or read."

18 Now, that answer, Mr. Kalabic, in light of the documents we just

19 looked at clearly was not right, was it? You had been considering, you in

20 Kljuc, had been considering the decisions and putting into effect the

21 decisions of the regional crisis staff since the beginning of May.

22 A. It was from the 13th or the 14th of May that the decisions of the

23 crisis staff were considered by the municipal crisis staff.

24 Q. You see, you were doing the same here, weren't you? Putting into

25 effect the decisions of the crisis staff meeting that had been held the

Page 22642

1 previous day, the 26th of May, which is number 17 in P227? That's what

2 was happening here. Wasn't it, Mr. Kalabic?

3 A. I don't remember the document which would speak of the session of

4 the crisis staff which was held on the 26th of May. Is there such a

5 document? I'd like to see it.

6 Q. Yes, well, there is such a document. The Court's aware of it, and

7 I'm not going to take it out.

8 Where in this whole meeting did you discuss the situation that had

9 arisen in respect of Pudin Han?

10 A. On the 26th of May --

11 Q. 27th of May, this meeting. The document you're holding.

12 A. Yes, that's a different story. The 27th of May, there was a

13 session of the crisis staff in the evening. And obviously, we did discuss

14 the entire situation which had arisen.

15 Q. All right. So this meeting of the crisis staff has nothing

16 whatsoever to do with the situation in, as it arose, in Pudin Han and

17 other places? It was before these events were discussed; there was a

18 separate meeting. Is that what you're saying now?

19 A. I don't know what events are you referring to? If you are

20 referring to the events which took place on the 27th of May, we discussed

21 those events at the crisis staff meeting which was held in the evening of

22 the 27th May.

23 Q. Yes. So this meeting that is recorded here is not the meeting at

24 which the events of the 27th of May were discussed. Is that what you're

25 now telling us here?

Page 22643

1 A. I am not clear as to what meeting are you referring to, what date,

2 what day, whether it was on the 27th or some other day. What are you

3 referring to?

4 Q. Mr. Kalabic, the longer you go on like this, really, the longer

5 you will be here.

6 The document you are holding refers to a crisis staff meeting on

7 the 27th of May 1992. Is that right?

8 A. Yes. But I had this document in my hands when you mentioned the

9 meeting on the 26th of May. That's why I wanted to be absolutely clear

10 whether you're talking about the meeting which took place on the 27th May

11 or some other date. On the 27th of May, the crisis staff did consider the

12 situation in Pudin Han and Granice and Velagici, and the situation was

13 considered. And at that meeting, after these events, conclusions were

14 passed just as they are indicated here in this document.

15 Q. I'm sorry, so, are we back to the situation that you're saying

16 there was one meeting of the crisis staff on the 27th of May and one

17 meeting alone?

18 A. After the 27th May, there were frequent meetings of the crisis

19 staff of the municipality.

20 Q. Mr. Kalabic, I suggest you are deliberately playing for time. Was

21 there, for the third time, just one meeting of the crisis staff on the

22 27th of May or more than one meeting on the 27th of May?

23 A. On the 27th of May, there was one meeting, but that meeting

24 started late in the afternoon and ended in the early hours of the morning.

25 There were certain interruptions in that meeting. There were breaks.

Page 22644

1 Information was being awaited. So this was not all that simple. There

2 was one meeting, and that meeting lasted a long time and had several

3 breaks. It was on the 27th of May.

4 Q. All right. During the course of that long meeting, the crisis

5 staff reached all the decisions that are listed here. Is that right?

6 A. Yes, these are the decisions.

7 Q. One of the decisions that was reached was that all non-Serbian

8 personnel were to be removed from positions which allow independent

9 decision-making and securing property. Is that right?

10 A. Yes. That is the conclusion under 3. However, there was no need

11 to implement this decision because on the 27th of May, almost no Muslims

12 turned up for work.

13 Q. Yes. I suggest the Muslims who didn't turn up for work on the

14 27th of May is because blockades were being thrown up.

15 A. I believe that this assertion is not correct. There were no

16 barricades on the roads, at least not to my knowledge. As a forestry

17 engineer, before the 25th of May, that is, before the 27th of May, a day

18 or two days before that, I passed through Pudin Han to Krasulje, and on

19 the public road I did not notice a single barricade anywhere.

20 Q. And thereafter, all non-Serb employees were dismissed, weren't

21 they?

22 A. After that, or rather, on the 27th of May, no one -- or that is

23 the majority of the Muslim employees failed to turn up for work. But some

24 10 or 15 days after that, no one came to work, including Serbs, Croats,

25 and Muslims. Because chaos prevailed in Kljuc.

Page 22645

1 Q. Right. I'm sorry, Mr. Kalabic. I'm going to ask you this one

2 more time: Are you saying that not one single Muslim or Croat, although

3 there were few Croats in Kljuc, was dismissed from employment?

4 A. After these events, most Muslims did not come to work at all.

5 They simply did not turn up for work. Whether later on they were

6 dismissed, I don't think so, because practically no one came to work. I

7 remember well that where I worked, a number of Muslims arrived and picked

8 up their salaries, which they had earned previously, and they had no

9 problems with this. And they were even invited and asked to return to

10 work. But out of fear that something might happen, people did not go to

11 work.

12 Q. All right. You can put that document away now, and I'm going to

13 ask you to look at part of Exhibit P8 -- I'm sorry, 989, which is the book

14 of minutes from the Kljuc Assembly. I just want you to have a look at the

15 record for the 1st of June.

16 I've marked the part that I want you to look at. It's page 7, and

17 then page 8 in English. These are the minutes from the Kljuc Crisis Staff

18 session of the 1st of June. And if you go to where I've highlighted, if

19 we turn over the page, does that say: "Veljko Kondic" -- and it says

20 Rajko Kolobic. Is that you? Is it Kalabic in the original?

21 A. Yes. Yes, this is me.

22 Q. "Were sent to attend the Krajina Crisis Staff session." It's

23 right, isn't it, Mr. Kalabic? You were an active participant in the

24 crisis staff in Kljuc and attended the meetings of the regional crisis

25 staff on a regular basis?

Page 22646

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, he has been asked the question. I

2 think he answered it, that he went occasionally but was not a member. I

3 think he has said that two or three times now.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him answer again, Mr. Ackerman, because this is

5 a crescendo, as you can obviously understand. As we go along, he's being

6 shown documents with a view to making him agree that he was more important

7 or he played a more important role than he has actually been portraying to

8 so far.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, this document doesn't say anything

10 different from what he said. This just confirms what he said, that he on

11 occasion he would attend the Krajina Crisis Staff meetings but that he was

12 not a member. This just confirms what he said.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner, please. Or Mr. Kalabic.


15 Q. Mr. Kalabic, this clearly indicates, doesn't it, that you were an

16 important, functioning person as a liaison between the municipal and the

17 regional crisis staff?

18 A. No, it doesn't show this. Together with Mr. Kondic, at this

19 meeting, I was given a one-time task, so you need to read three lines

20 before this "to go to Banja Luka and try to solve the problem of the

21 telephone lines and to try to solve the possibility of communicating by

22 teleprinter." Because the telephones in Kljuc had stopped functioning.

23 Mr. Veljko Kondic was the director of the Kljuc post office. And the

24 crisis staff tasked the two of us with trying at the main post office in

25 Banja Luka to resolve the issue of telephone lines in Kljuc. This was a

Page 22647

1 specific and one-time assignment.

2 Q. Yes. Thank you. You can hand that back.

3 Now, let's have a look, shall we, at dismissals, please.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you see how important it was for the witness to

5 answer the question, Mr. Ackerman?


7 Q. Could you have a look, please, again at P974.

8 Now, you were shown this document yesterday by Mr. Ackerman. And

9 it's a letter addressed to the municipal assembly. In fact, information

10 on managerial and executive staff. "We are sending you herewith

11 information about the managerial and executive staff of Muslim and

12 Croatian nationality holding positions of foreman and higher, et cetera."

13 Companies had been asked, hadn't they, after the 1st of June to

14 provide information about their Muslims and Croatian employees who held

15 managerial positions?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If there was no -- if nobody was going to dismiss them, what was

18 the need for that information? Mr. Kalabic, if nobody was going to

19 dismiss these people, why was that information required?

20 A. The crisis staff decided this, and I really think that at the time

21 we did not discuss any dismissals. But probably the prevailing opinion

22 was that it was necessary to know where people were working, what jobs

23 they were holding down, and what kind of security could be expected in the

24 future from these people.

25 Q. All of these people lost their jobs, didn't they?

Page 22648

1 A. No, if you look at number 1 and 2 from the administration

2 services, when all the others, or rather some of the employees who were

3 not active in the army returned to their workplaces, these people also

4 returned. Number 2, Draganovic also returned to his job. Sip is a large

5 organisation. So I don't know all these people. Amra Mrsic also

6 continued working for a time. Mile Belajic is a Croat, and he continued

7 working until he retired. I think he retired in the second half of the

8 war.

9 And this is what I know. Besim Pudic also worked in Kljuc. He's

10 under number 9 here.

11 Q. What I'm suggesting to you is sooner or later, each and every one

12 of them lost their jobs with this particular company. That's what I'm

13 suggesting.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, he's answered the question. He's gone

15 through the whole list and said that's not true. That some of them stayed

16 there the entire time, some of them retired. He's answered the question.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But the question is sooner or later, Mr. Ackerman.


19 Q. Can I take number 1. Mr. -- Mr. Pobric lost his job and ended up

20 working as a cleaner, didn't he, in Kljuc?

21 A. I don't think that's the work he did. I think he was employed in

22 the army to work in the rear. He was never a cleaner in Kljuc.

23 Q. All right. Can you look now, please, at 983.

24 There should be a number of documents. Does the first one show

25 that the crisis staff dismissed Nermin Kapetanovic as a judge?

Page 22649

1 A. Mr. Kapetanovic, after the events of the 27th of May, like all the

2 other Serbs, Muslims, and Croats, did not turn up for work for about ten

3 days. And later on, when these people did return to work, he absolutely

4 did not show up for work.

5 Q. Next one, is that Dzemal Botunic?

6 A. Well, his case is the same as that of Mr. Kapetanovic.

7 Q. All right. Well then I'm not going to go on with this. You say

8 dismissed because they simply failed to turn up for work.

9 A. Yes, they didn't turn up for work.

10 Q. Okay. Can you then have a look at, please, P1000.

11 Is that a decision of the war presidency on the 21st of July which

12 states in the clearest possible term only officials of Serbian nationality

13 can occupy managerial posts, posts which may provide access to

14 information, or involve protection of public property, and posts which are

15 important for the functioning of the economy? And then it reads: "To all

16 socially owned enterprises, joint stock companies, state institutions," et

17 cetera. And that meant, didn't it, that no non-Serbs could hold any kinds

18 of job?

19 A. Where is it possible to get such information? Yes, that was the

20 decision, yes.

21 Q. I'm sorry, I don't understand --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't understand either.


24 Q. What do you mean by "where is it possible to get such

25 information"?

Page 22650

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I understood the second part of your answer. But I

2 join Ms. Korner in asking you to explain the first part.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, paragraph 1 doesn't say "every

4 non-Serb." It talks about managerial positions with regard to particular

5 information. That's what his answer was about. And her question was all

6 non-Serbs, and he said, no, just those involved in -- where this

7 information was involved. I think that's what he was saying.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, what -- the first part of your answer was:

9 "Where is it possible to get such information"? And then you said

10 proceeded to say yes, that was the decision, yes. What did you mean by

11 the words "where is it possible to get such information"?


13 Q. Mr. Kalabic, posts which were important for the functioning --

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Wait, wait, wait. The Judge asked a question. I

15 think he deserves to have his question answered before Ms. Korner

16 interrupts you, Judge.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I would like to see -- are you taken by surprise by

18 the document, Mr. Kalabic?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have this document in my

20 possession. This is the first time I'm looking at it.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But were you aware at the time of the decision taken

22 by the crisis staff? Or is it all news to you in 2003?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the decision in

24 this form. I can't remember the decision in this form. But there was

25 something similar to this.

Page 22651

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, yes, Ms. Korner, he's back to you.


3 Q. You see, it's drawn widely enough, isn't it, to cover every kind

4 of job, posts which are important for the functioning of the economy can

5 be a man who chops down trees?

6 A. I really do not know what Mr. Jovo Banjac meant when he drew up

7 this conclusion, or rather this decision. As for a man who chops down

8 trees, he would not hold down a post where he would be able to get

9 important security information.

10 Q. No, no. What it says is: "Can occupy managerial posts, posts

11 which may provide access to information or involve protection of public

12 property, and posts which are important for the functioning of the

13 economy." You see, Mr. Kalabic, I make this as clear as I possibly can to

14 you: My suggestion is all Muslims and Croats lost their jobs sooner or

15 later in the Municipality of Kljuc.

16 A. Whether they lost their jobs later, I cannot prejudge this.

17 Whether they would have lost their jobs later. But I know that after the

18 27th, many of them failed to turn up for work, and that's the whole truth.

19 Q. I suggest it's very, very far indeed from the whole truth,

20 Mr. Kalabic. And I want you to understand very clearly that I'm

21 suggesting that you're literally sitting here and lying to this Court.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, again, I object to those kinds of

23 comments. I think they're unnecessary and unwarranted.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I have an obligation --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Let -- objection overruled. It's perfectly

Page 22652

1 legitimate to put that to the witness, and it's up to the witness, then,

2 to answer it.


4 Q. When --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Give him an opportunity to tell you I don't

6 accept that, Ms. Korner, or I agree with you. I have been lying.

7 MS. KORNER: It does happen.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Kalabic, it has been suggested to you by

9 Ms. Korner that you are lying to us. Do you accept that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Ms. Korner, please proceed.


13 Q. After they had been dismissed, in order to leave the municipality

14 if they hadn't been killed, they had to sign documents, didn't they,

15 leaving their property to the municipality?

16 A. No, they were not dismissed. And those who left, who moved out

17 from the municipality of Kljuc, with their family in order to preserve

18 property from possible destruction, looting, torching, and so on was made

19 over to the municipality. It became state-owned property, and this was

20 done all over Bosnia and Herzegovina. So this was not something that was

21 invented in Kljuc. It wasn't anything new in Kljuc. It happened in other

22 municipalities as well, and it was simply copied from there.

23 Q. I agree. It happened all over the Krajina Municipalities that

24 were taken over like this, didn't it?

25 A. In Central Bosnia also, and other places, the same thing happened.

Page 22653

1 Q. During this period of time, did you put on a uniform?

2 A. From my 26th year of age, when I completed my compulsory military

3 service, on my return home when I was 26, I was assigned to a reserve

4 police force. And from the date of the completion of my military service,

5 I was a reserve policeman.

6 Q. I'll ask you --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But you haven't answered the question.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was going to continue.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Carry on.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, occasionally, I did put on a

11 uniform, because from time to time I was assigned to war units and from

12 time to time I went to the front lines.


14 Q. No, I'm talking about in the streets of Kljuc or elsewhere.

15 A. For a time, at the very beginning, all the members of the war

16 presidency, that is, the crisis staff, wore uniforms, and so did I.

17 Q. Why?

18 A. That was the decision, and I abided by it for the most part.

19 Q. Why was the decision taken? Why should you, civilian members of

20 the government, wear a uniform?

21 A. Today, it isn't clear to me why the decision was taken. But the

22 decision was taken.

23 Q. And you got yourself a weapon as well, didn't you?

24 A. As a member of the reserve police force, I was issued with a

25 weapon.

Page 22654

1 Q. Nothing to do with the police force, was it?

2 A. I was in the reserve police force. And from time to time, I went

3 to the front line.

4 Q. No. I'm suggesting that the weapon that you acquired,

5 Mr. Kalabic, had nothing to do with your membership of being a reserve

6 policeman.

7 Can you look, please, at P, first of all, 988. It's marked -- I

8 have a marked copy of it in B/C/S.

9 It's highlighted for you. Item -- It's minutes of the Kljuc War

10 Presidency, 10th of July. And item number 2: "Decision allowing the war

11 presidency members to move around in uniform and carrying weapons."

12 You've told us I don't know how many times you weren't a member of the war

13 presidency. So why were you moving around in uniform?

14 A. Well, the crisis staff in the municipality became the war

15 presidency, so that after the 27th of May I think -- I mean to say,

16 officially it was named the war presidency. And I confirmed that as a

17 member of the war presidency, on the basis of the decision, I confirmed

18 that from time to time I carried weapons.

19 Q. I'm sorry. You weren't a member. You've told us this. I

20 think -- I don't know how many times, that you were not a member of either

21 the crisis staff or the war presidency. So I'm asking why this decision

22 had anything to do with you.

23 A. The autonomous -- I was not a member of the crisis staff of the

24 autonomous region. That's what I said. And I said that Jovan Banjac was

25 the president -- was a member, not me. And I was a member of the

Page 22655

1 municipal crisis staff.

2 Q. All right.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: He was shown the document to that effect yesterday,

4 in fact.


6 Q. All right. Now I'd like you to have a look, please, first of all,

7 P1143, a part of thereof, and one which is a new document. Usher.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think this was handed to Mr. Ackerman

9 yesterday.

10 Q. 1143 -- no, no.

11 Does that show that you, Mr. Kalabic, that you are confirming that

12 you have received and signed for the following weapons: "One automatic

13 rifle and 160 bullets"?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. And does the next document show that you've signed for a

16 Russian-made machine-gun with 70 bullets?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Why was it necessary to have an automatic rifle and a machine-gun?

19 Mr. Kalabic, why did you need both weapons?

20 A. I think I gave one of those weapons to someone else.

21 Q. Wasn't that illegal?

22 A. I think that as a member of the reserve police force, I was given

23 the task of giving someone this weapon. I can't remember the details, but

24 I think that's how it was. Because really, I did not have -- except at

25 the moment of being issued the weapons and handing them back, I didn't

Page 22656

1 have two weapons at the same time. My weapon was this automatic

2 rifle. .762.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I ask that the exhibit which relates

4 to the Russian-made gun which has got the number in B/C/S 00574478

5 become -- I think it ought probably be attached to the first exhibit, so

6 they're together, so it would be P1143.1.

7 Q. Now, I want to come back. I'm going to deal with the events of

8 the 27th and thereafter together. I want to come back to this report that

9 you were shown yesterday, P1010, which is a report on the work of the

10 crisis staff of the Kljuc municipal assembly.

11 Before I do that, I'd like you to look, please, at P1009. And

12 I'll give you the B/C/S. This is the minutes of the 13th session of the

13 Kljuc Municipal Assembly beginning the 31st of July. Agenda: "Report on

14 the work of the Kljuc SJB public security station. Report on the work and

15 activities of the command of the 17th Light Infantry Brigade. Three.

16 Report on the work of the crisis staff/war presidency." And I asked you

17 yesterday whether this report would have had to have been delivered to the

18 municipal assembly when the decisions are verified, and you said no. Do

19 you agree now that you were mistaken?

20 A. I didn't say no. I said that the reports on the work of the

21 crisis staff were subsequently in a later period submitted to the

22 municipal assembly for verification. And this really proves and shows

23 that this was on the 31st of July 1992.

24 Q. All right. So you accept - that's all I'm after - that this

25 report that you were asked to look at yesterday was the one that was put

Page 22657

1 to the municipal assembly on the 31st of July?

2 A. The conclusions, the meetings, and the decisions of the crisis

3 staff dating from the 27th May onwards were all put to the assembly on the

4 31st of July, and that's when they were all verified.

5 Q. Right. Do you agree that -- have back the report, please. I'll

6 give it to you, which is P1010. It's marked -- no, usher, please.

7 Now, this is the report that I asked you about yesterday, and I

8 already asked you about the paragraph that says that the municipal crisis

9 staff in Kljuc considered the conclusions of the Banja Luka regional

10 crisis staff binding.

11 I want you to look, please, at the paragraph that's marked

12 "During the armed conflict..." Which is on page 3 of the English. It

13 begins: "During the armed conflict..." Do you see that? It's marked in

14 yellow. Do you see that?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it highlighted?

16 MS. KORNER: Yes, it is.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So maybe he understands highlighted and is otherwise

18 colour-blind.

19 MS. KORNER: I don't want to waste time. Can you give it back to

20 me.

21 Q. It has got two yellow lines down the side of it. Do you see that?

22 "During the armed conflict, representatives, commanders, of the Army of

23 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina regularly attended the

24 Crisis Staff and War Presidency meetings. They commanded and carried out

25 the war activities for the defence of the territory and citizens of the

Page 22658

1 Kljuc Municipal Assembly against Muslim extremists. They cooperated and

2 coordinated everything very well with the Crisis Staff of the Kljuc

3 Municipal Assembly. All important and significant issues in the military

4 and police domain were not resolved outside the Crisis Staff of the

5 Municipal Assembly. This period could be described as a period of very

6 successful cooperation between the Crisis Staff and military bodies in

7 defeating the armed resistance of Muslim extremists."

8 Do you agree that's what's written there? Mr. Kalabic, do you

9 agree?

10 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

11 Q. And that's an accurate description, isn't it, as far as the

12 cooperation is concerned? That's accurate, isn't it?

13 A. Yes, at that time there was cooperation. There was cooperation at

14 the time.

15 Q. All right. Now, let's turn to the events of the 27th of May. You

16 were shown the document, the police document, that described the various

17 incidents, and you said that all of them were accurate. Were you present

18 at any of these incidents?

19 A. No, I wasn't present.

20 Q. So you don't know yourself whether the descriptions you read were

21 accurate or not?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: It's just the form of the question, I suppose, that

25 I'm objecting to. I was very careful in asking him "to your knowledge is

Page 22659

1 this accurate," not "is it accurate"? To your knowledge, to your

2 knowledge, to your knowledge. I think every question I asked him was

3 "to your knowledge is it accurate," not a general is this accurate? But

4 to his understanding.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's fair enough. But let the witness answer the

6 question. It needs to be cleared up. But the point that you made is to

7 be taken into consideration. So what I suggest is -- I don't think you

8 need to rephrase the question, Ms. Korner.

9 MS. KORNER: I have no intention of rephrasing the question.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to rephrase it. It's just that the

11 witness needs to clear this up for us.


13 Q. I mean, it's quite simple. You don't know from your knowledge,

14 because you weren't there, whether these descriptions are accurate or not?

15 A. Obviously I was not present. However, according to the

16 information that I had, I believe that this was all accurate and correct.

17 Q. All right. I want you to look now, please, at P923. Have you

18 seen this document before?

19 A. I don't think so.

20 Q. All right. Let me just summarise what it deals with. Omer

21 Filipovic had asked for a postponement of the deadline to surrender the

22 weapons. And what's called the Kljuc defence command that accepted the

23 proposal on the basis that the seven captured soldiers and the deputy

24 commander of the police station that was killed was handed over by 1700

25 hours. "We invite all citizens of Muslim nationality to hand in their

Page 22660

1 weapons and fulfill their obligation. Should these conditions not be

2 fulfilled and the weapons not handed in, or should some new military or

3 other activity be undertaken, such weapons will be destroyed by the

4 defence of the Kljuc Municipality."

5 Now, you were there in Kljuc, and the situation was this, wasn't

6 it, that negotiations went on with Omer Filipovic?

7 A. Yes, the negotiations went on.

8 Q. And if we look, now, please -- if you look at, please, 924 -- I've

9 got it for the witness.

10 This is a combat report for the 28th of May 1992. It's addressed

11 to the command of the 30th Infantry division. If you look, please, at the

12 item that I've highlighted for you. And it's on the second page of the

13 English. "Because of the situation in Kljuc, the 3rd Battalion of the 1st

14 Infantry Brigade was made fully combat ready as ordered. If the Muslims

15 do not surrender their weapons by 27 May 1992 at 1200 hours, the battalion

16 will carry out a mopping-up operation. To this battalion, combat group 2

17 has been attached and has been under our command since last night."

18 Now, it's right, isn't it, Mr. Kalabic, that by the 28th of May,

19 the whole of the Pudin Han area and other areas were surrounded by forces

20 of the military?

21 A. I believe so.

22 Q. Armed with guns, with tanks, with APCs, and infantry?

23 A. There were no tanks.

24 Q. You know that, do you?

25 A. I'm sure that there were no tanks.

Page 22661

1 Q. How do you know that?

2 A. That's the information received at the crisis staff. And none of

3 these units were a tank unit, so they couldn't have tanks.

4 Q. Let's leave aside the tanks for the moment. There was absolutely

5 nothing the people in these villages could do against that army, was

6 there? Was there, Mr. Kalabic?

7 A. There were certain military formations. There were certain

8 military formations which were armed.

9 Q. The only arms, to your certain knowledge, of that of the army and

10 the police that were held were mainly hunting rifles and a few light

11 machine-guns. That was all, wasn't it?

12 A. As to the automatic rifles, the information was received only

13 subsequently. There were a number of those, and there was also hunting

14 rifles.

15 Q. And what -- the situation was this, wasn't it: That you, in

16 conjunction with the army and the police, used these incidents as an

17 excuse to drive the Muslims out?

18 A. No. The army arrived in Kljuc specifically because their young

19 recruits on the way back from Knin had been attacked. 6 people were

20 killed, and some 20 were injured. I don't know the exact numbers of those

21 who were injured. And the army arrived because of that, not because they

22 had other intentions.

23 Q. I suggest this was a highly synchronised operation, and the excuse

24 that was used was this deadline to surrender the arms and the seven

25 captured men. And that's what happened, wasn't it?

Page 22662

1 A. Whether the operation was synchronised or not, I really wouldn't

2 know. I don't know whether this was synchronised. There's nothing for me

3 to know about that because the crisis staff did not engage in any detailed

4 planning with this regard. It was indeed for the six or seven soldiers

5 who were captured to be released. And the surrender of weapons was

6 required to prevent a possible escalation of the conflict. Some people

7 did indeed surrender their weapons, many didn't. A lot of weapons

8 remained in the ground and will probably never be located or found again.

9 MS. KORNER: Yes, I prefer to go on, Your Honour. I mean, I

10 really still have quite a lot to cover with this witness. I mean, I don't

11 mind. If this witness can come back here.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to have a break now. This is what I meant.

13 MS. KORNER: All right.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, I can't deny -- the break is not yours or

15 mine. It's everybody's. So we need to stop for 20 minutes and in the

16 meantime Mr. Ackerman perhaps can converse with Ms. Korner to see how much

17 you require for your re-examination. And if that is not feasible to

18 combine with everything today, see what the solution is. We'll have a

19 20-minute break starting from now. Thank you.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.



24 Q. Could you have a look, please, at part of a report for the 30th of

25 May from the 1st Krajina Corps, Exhibit P936.

Page 22663

1 JUDGE AGIUS: While he looks at that and thinks, have you come to

2 some kind of an arrangement between you?

3 MS. KORNER: Mr. Ackerman just told me five minutes'

4 re-examination.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


7 Q. Do you see there: "In the Velagici/Kula/Pudin Han area the 3rd

8 Battalion is conducting mopping up of the Green Berets who are

9 surrendering in droves. Some of the Green Berets have fled and are in

10 hiding. One of our soldiers was killed." Were you aware that the

11 Bosniaks, the Muslims, were surrendering in droves?

12 A. Yes, I was aware of that.

13 Q. In fact, were you also aware that the village of Pudin Han was

14 shelled, and numerous civilians were killed?

15 A. We received the information on the shelling later on. And we also

16 received the information that there were some casualties during the

17 shelling.

18 Q. And what do you describe as "some casualties"? How many people?

19 A. I didn't have that information at the time. And I still don't

20 know to this very day how many people were killed in shelling.

21 Q. Were you aware that those who fled towards Krasulje and then

22 Hrustovo? Were you aware of that?

23 A. No, I didn't have that information. Well, they probably fled to

24 various sites.

25 Q. Were you aware that on the 31st of May, the village of Zenica was

Page 22664

1 attacked?

2 A. No, I didn't know about the 31st of May.

3 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, can I just correct. On the transcript, it

4 says Zenica. It should be Sanica.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.


7 Q. Were you aware that on the 1st of June, the village of Prhovo was

8 attacked? That's P-r-h-o-v-o.

9 A. I received that information later on. Not I, but we were informed

10 at the crisis staff about Prhovo.

11 Q. Were you also told that the men who had been taken from the

12 village was from separated from the women and lined up along the road

13 towards Peci?

14 A. At the crisis staff, we did not receive such detailed information.

15 Q. Well, did you receive information that some civilians, people

16 without arms, people under guard, were killed on that road?

17 A. The information about casualties in that area we received later

18 on. But this information was not thorough. We didn't have the full

19 detail.

20 Q. Were you aware that women and children were killed during the

21 attack on Prhovo?

22 A. I said that we received that information later on.

23 Q. When you received this information, before we come to the Velagici

24 killings, did you or anybody else on your crisis staff, to your knowledge,

25 protest about this?

Page 22665

1 A. At the crisis staff, we asked that civilians should not be touched

2 and that they should be looked after.

3 Q. And so the police and the army who were involved in these

4 operations took no notice of what you were asking. Is that what you're

5 saying?

6 A. We asked for that before and after the events in Prhovo. Despite

7 our requests, things were done completely differently.

8 Q. So it's wrong, as that report says, to say that everything that

9 happened happened in cooperation with the police, the army, and the

10 civilian authorities?

11 A. If something happens, as it did happen, information reached the

12 crisis staff post-festin. So the crisis staff was never advised in

13 advance of the things that might happen in the future. It was only after

14 the event that the information reached us. Whether this was on the same

15 day or one or two days after the events, I can't say.

16 Q. And then we come to the massacre at the Velagici school on the 1st

17 of June. And you've described how you and Colonel Galic heard about it

18 together. Do you agree that that was the most appalling war crime?

19 A. I do agree.

20 Q. At that stage, did you, in your capacity as a member of the

21 assembly and as a member of the municipal crisis staff, say to anybody

22 that "this must never happen and that there must be control of the

23 troops"?

24 A. Yes. The control was required. However, the local authorities

25 could not control what was going on in the army. In this particular case,

Page 22666

1 Colonel Galic arrested certain people for whom he believed that they had

2 done that.

3 Q. That's right. And you know, don't you, that -- what happened to

4 those people? They were released.

5 A. I know that Colonel Galic said that they had to be arrested. That

6 was his order, as a matter of fact, and the military investigation was

7 initiated against them. What happened to these people after that, I don't

8 know. I don't have any information.

9 Q. Well, weren't you interested to know what had happened to the

10 perpetrators, the leaders, of this massacre?

11 A. Yes. At that time, we did inquire, all of us from the crisis

12 staff, as to what was happening and how far this had gone. And the answer

13 was mostly that an investigation was carried out, and then a procedure

14 was initiated before the military court and that the procedure was

15 underway. That was the information that we received.

16 Q. So you didn't hear that the reason that these men were released

17 was that representatives of the Kljuc Brigade appeared at court and said

18 that unless the people who had been arrested were released, the entire

19 Kljuc Brigade would leave the front line and could not guarantee that the

20 lives of the prosecutor and the judges or the lives of anyone else would

21 be safe? Did you ever hear that?

22 A. I never heard that.

23 Q. Did you hear that when attempts were made to resuscitate the

24 prosecution in July of 1993, over a year later, that the investigating

25 judge said that the investigation proceeding against the

Page 22667

1 Lieutenant Amidzic had to be halted because the majority of the suspects

2 were inaccessible to the prosecuting organs and because of a situation

3 that arose when the president of the executive committee brought pressure

4 that these people should not be prosecuted? Did you ever hear anything

5 about that?

6 A. No, I didn't. And I believe that the president of the executive

7 committee in Kljuc was not such an influential person to be able to put

8 such pressure on a military court.

9 Q. Well, I'm not going to show you the document. I just want to move

10 on.

11 That wasn't the end of the killings, though, was it, in Kljuc?

12 A. The war was on. What happened during the war --

13 Q. No, I'm talking about massacres, killings of unarmed people. Do

14 you remember Biljani school?

15 A. I heard of the Biljani school. I believe that at the time, I

16 was -- I can't tell you where I was because I may not be right. But I was

17 either on the front line or I was at the assembly. It was only upon my

18 return to Kljuc that I heard that something like that had happened in

19 Biljani.

20 Q. Yes. There was another almost identical massacre on the 10th of

21 July at the Biljani school, wasn't there?

22 A. Yes, that's exactly what I just said.

23 Q. Did you do anything about that?

24 A. The crisis staff really did not have anything in their hands to be

25 able to do anything but to insist for the perpetrators to be brought

Page 22668

1 before the court.

2 Q. And they weren't brought before the court either, were they?

3 A. I really don't have the exact information on that. But I don't

4 think so.

5 Q. And that's because, isn't it, that it was tacitly accepted that

6 people, unarmed civilians, could be killed like this because they were not

7 Serbs? That's the situation, isn't it, Mr. Kalabic?

8 A. No. On several occasions at the crisis staff, we insisted, and

9 you can see that from various documents, that the civilians should be

10 protected, that they should not be touched. However, it did happen that

11 some renegade soldiers would commit crimes unbeknown of the military

12 command that they belonged to.

13 Q. Yes, but it wasn't just once that it happened in Kljuc, was it?

14 It was over and over again. That's right, isn't it, Mr. Kalabic?

15 A. On the territory of Kljuc, there have been three such incidents.

16 We have just mentioned all of them.

17 Q. Yes. But there were many more, not as large as Biljani or

18 Velagici or Peci, but many, many other killings on a smaller scale of

19 unarmed people, weren't there?

20 A. During the war times, things did happen. Cases like that did

21 happen. However, a lot of people in Kljuc belonged to military groups

22 that were not part of the regular army, so there were groups who just

23 followed events looking for room to plunder and to get rich. That's why

24 people, innocent people, were killed, those people who never participated

25 in the war, nor they ever intended to participate in it. Some indictments

Page 22669

1 were raised against some people. How far has that gone, I don't know. I

2 don't have the information on that.

3 So there were killings of the Muslim population, of the Serbian

4 population. It all depended on who was it who intended to plunder or loot

5 property.

6 Q. There was every way that any of these so-called paramilitaries

7 could have been stopped by the army and the police who were there in force

8 in Kljuc, weren't they?

9 A. Nobody had power in Kljuc. Neither me, nor Jovo Banjac, nor

10 anybody who was on the crisis staff. Nobody could vouch for their own

11 safety, let alone the safety of anybody else. You will find it in the

12 documents that the police was often asked to protect people and buildings,

13 to prevent these things from happening. And the police was very efficient

14 in Velecevo [Realtime transcript read in error "Velagici"], Zgon, and

15 Dubocani. In those villages, the police was particularly efficient and

16 they managed to protect both the people and the property there, and this

17 was done at the request of the crisis staff.

18 Q. So at some stage, the police were doing what you wanted; but most

19 of the time, they weren't. Is that what you're saying?

20 A. When it comes to this type of protection that I've just mentioned,

21 in these villages it was carried out properly. The police had its own

22 hierarchy, and the Kljuc police was subordinated to the CSB in Banja Luka,

23 and the Kljuc police --

24 Q. You've told us that, and you don't need to tell us that again,

25 thank you.

Page 22670

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, Ms. Korner. Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: 77.1 shouldn't be Velagici, it should be Velecevo.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman. Velecevo.

4 Yes, Ms. Korner.

5 MS. KORNER: I'm not sure that's right. But anyhow.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know, I mean --

7 MS. KORNER: And I would be grateful that there are no further

8 interruptions, please.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I intend to correct the transcript any

10 time it's wrong and misleading.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and I will let you do it.


13 Q. I want to show you P1012. I'll show the part I'm interested in

14 from there onward. This is the report of the SJB to the assembly. I want

15 you to look, please, under paragraph 5, page 5 in the English, "knowledge

16 gained through investigations."

17 "All intelligence work has shown that the Muslim TO was primarily

18 organised for defence operations. Their patrol guarded only the entrance

19 into their own villages, and the defence system was positioned on the edge

20 of and within the villages themselves."

21 Do you accept that the police themselves knew that they were under

22 no threat from the Muslims? No, don't -- just answer the question,

23 please, Mr. Kalabic.

24 A. I have already said that. I saw that there were no barricades on

25 the public roads, so I assume if there were barricades somewhere, that

Page 22671

1 those were the villages.

2 Q. And the bottom of that page, under the pretext, I should read

3 this: "That they were merely preparing to protect their villages and

4 homes. They were preparing their defence system and organised a Muslim

5 TO. All of our findings point to the fact that the Muslim TO was

6 primarily set up for defence purposes." And then: "Investigation through

7 operational work, establish meetings held in Prijedor and Sanski Most,

8 adopted a decision to commence armed rebellion."

9 And then at the bottom of this paragraph, this: "The attacks they

10 launched on the 27th of May 1992 gave proper cause to the members of the

11 BH Serbian Republic Army to settle accounts by taking determined action

12 against the perpetrators of and participants in these acts."

13 Mr. Kalabic, do you accept, as I put to you about an hour ago,

14 that those incidents were used as an excuse to attack and drive out the

15 Muslims?

16 A. No. That could not be taken as an excuse. It couldn't be

17 accepted. At least not as far as I knew, although with respect to this

18 information, the crisis staff never received the information in this

19 form. It was addressed to the public security centre, and I never had an

20 opportunity to hear it in this form.

21 Q. So in effect what you're telling us is that the municipal crisis

22 staff got no information at all about anything. Is that what you're

23 telling us?

24 A. No. I can't say it didn't get any information about anything.

25 Yes, it did get information, but it got it in the form and quantity that

Page 22672

1 those who were transmitting the information thought necessary.

2 Q. All right. Can you go to, please, paragraph Roman numeral number

3 7, "Kljuc SJB operations." Page 8 on the English.

4 "Participation in combat activities. SJB officers took part in

5 all the combat activities and mopping-up of the terrain in order to arrest

6 the participants in the armed rebellion and to find weapons. We suffered

7 no casualties in these actions apart from a slight self-inflicted wound.

8 All operations were conducted in cooperation with the command of the 30th

9 Division. We noticed on that occasion that apart from the units in the

10 first line of attack, the rest of the units are prone to looting and

11 torching abandoned houses."

12 And then it goes on to the processing. Before we come to the

13 processing of prisoners, could you then go to under paragraph 3 "finding

14 and confiscating weapons." And you'll find the next highlighted section,

15 which is on page 9 in the English.

16 "The SJB has collected in accordance with the decision adopted by

17 the crisis staff 270 registered hunting rifles, 200 registered handguns.

18 These weapons have been stored and a record has been filed. The following

19 unregistered weapons were also confiscated: 100 automatic rifles,

20 9 semi-automatic rifles, 9 submachine-guns, 45 hunting rifles, a

21 60-millimetre mortar, 40 handguns, 20 various automatic rifles, around

22 90 old-fashioned pistols, 20 self-activating grenades, and a large

23 quantity of ammunition of various types and calibres."

24 Would you agree, Mr. Kalabic, that the Muslim resistance was

25 hardly well armed?

Page 22673

1 A. Yes, one could say that because this report shows this was so. If

2 it's really true that all the rifles and other weapons were really found

3 and handed over to the public security station.

4 Q. Finally the subject of prisoners. I want you to look, please, at

5 Exhibit P1033. This was a response from Mr. Kondic to the Serbian

6 Republic for information in respect of prisons in Kljuc. "No camps,

7 prisons, or collection centres in our municipality. We send all our

8 prisoners to the Manjaca prisoner-of-war camp in Dobrinja."

9 There are on that list, aren't there, attached to this letter

10 1.100 -- I'm sorry, yes. That's 1.163 people listed? Do you agree?

11 A. That's what it says here.

12 Q. All or most of those people in Manjaca were civilians, weren't

13 they?

14 A. I think that most of these people were on Omer Filipovic's list

15 and that they were deployed in military formations. Such a list was

16 found; that is, Omer Filipovic did have this list in his bag. And it

17 stated who the commanders were, who belonged to what unit, what platoon,

18 and I think that this is in question here. But this is the first time I'm

19 looking at the list.

20 Q. Number 86 was a man born in 1934. Number 83 was a man born in

21 1934. And scattered throughout these lists are people who were born

22 around that time. Are you saying that in your genuine belief, all these

23 people who were sent to Manjaca were part of the TO? The Muslim TO?

24 A. What I want to say is what I've already said. I think that most

25 of the people on this list were, that they were on the list of the army

Page 22674

1 formed by Mr. Filipovic. I'm saying the largest number. I cannot assert

2 anything else.

3 Q. Did you ever go to Manjaca?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Why not?

6 A. At the time, I didn't think about going to Manjaca.

7 Q. Didn't you think you ought to check that all these huge numbers of

8 Muslims who, to your knowledge, were locked up in Manjaca were properly

9 there?

10 A. I personally did not have this possibility, I think, because

11 Manjaca and Dobrinja is a big military barracks, and probably even had I

12 thought of doing this, I would not have been allowed entry or I would have

13 had to undergo a lengthy procedure. This was a military issue. But at

14 the crisis staff, I and others insisted with the military commanders that

15 prisoners should be treated humanely.

16 Q. Didn't you think perhaps you ought to check whether that was

17 actually happening?

18 A. I can't remember that time now.

19 Q. But they weren't only being held at Manjaca, were they, prisoners?

20 For a time, at least, they were being held at the police station in Kljuc.

21 You knew that, didn't you?

22 A. Mostly they passed through the police station. There, the police

23 carried out certain interrogation, identification. And then sent these

24 people on to Manjaca, to the military prison camp. And this was done by

25 the police in agreement with the military command.

Page 22675

1 Q. What about the Nikola Mlakic school? That was a prison as well,

2 wasn't it?

3 A. There was no prison in Kljuc, so at the time that groups of people

4 are questioned, and a lot of people came and gave themselves in, the

5 questioning was carried out there. And after the interrogation, they were

6 taken to Manjaca. Of course, neither I nor the crisis staff participated

7 in this. It was the military command and the police who were in charge of

8 that. It was our task only to ask that these people be treated humanely,

9 and I have to say that Mr. Banjac, on several occasions, reacted quite

10 strongly towards both of these parties so that we did what we could to

11 help those people and to have things be as easy for them as possible.

12 Q. The Nikola Mlakic school was very close to the municipal building

13 where you held the meetings of the crisis staff. That's right, isn't it?

14 A. Yes, it's one of the neighbouring buildings.

15 Q. And you were fully aware, weren't you, that people were being

16 beaten and beaten to death in that building?

17 A. I could not know that in this form. But whenever we noticed that

18 something was happening which was not in accordance with normal human

19 behaviour, we intervened, both with the police and with the military

20 command.

21 Q. What do you call something that isn't in accordance with "normal

22 human behaviour"?

23 A. If someone set out to beat someone, then of course we would

24 respond and say that such things must not happen, although in spite of our

25 reactions, such things did happen quite a lot.

Page 22676

1 Q. The school came under the control of the municipal assembly; and

2 when it wasn't meeting, under the control of the crisis staff, didn't it?

3 A. I don't understand how the school could have been under the

4 control of the municipal assembly.

5 Q. The school premises were owned or however you like to put it, run

6 by the assembly. It wasn't a private school, was it? It was a public

7 school.

8 A. In the former Yugoslavia, all institutions and all companies were

9 public, state-owned companies, and schools.

10 Q. And the point that I'm trying to make, Mr. Kalabic, is that you,

11 the crisis staff, could have simply told the police they could not use

12 this building as a prison.

13 A. This did not last for a long time. And I think the crisis staff

14 contributed to the fact that people were no longer interrogated in the

15 school.

16 Q. Mr. Kalabic, do you - looking back now - think that you have any

17 responsibility for what happened in Kljuc during that period of 1992?

18 A. I personally did my best, and I think I contributed quite a lot to

19 peace being maintained in Kljuc for a long time. Further, I think that

20 together with the other people in the crisis staff, I contributed quite a

21 lot to putting a stop to all the negative things that were happening on

22 the territory of Kljuc Municipality. And this is how I see my own actions

23 in respect of Kljuc.

24 Q. So you wouldn't accept that you or your fellow members of the

25 crisis staff had any responsibility for what happened to the Muslims and

Page 22677

1 the Croats in Kljuc?

2 A. Perhaps we could have done more than we did, but I really did do

3 my best to do as much as possible.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Kalabic. You are not obliged, until

5 we tell you to, to answer any question any way that you could possibly

6 incriminate yourself. So if you think that by answering this question, or

7 any other question, you could expose yourself to criminal proceedings, you

8 can ask us not to -- to exempt you from answering that question, and then

9 we will decide what to do. But if you think you are free and can answer

10 the question without any such problems, then please proceed.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I have answered the

12 question.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

14 I thank you, Ms. Korner.

15 Mr. Ackerman, you have redirect, I suppose? Thank you.

16 Re-examined by Mr. Ackerman:

17 Q. Mr. Kalabic, in the course of the examination today, you've heard

18 a lot and talked a lot about some of the unfortunate events that happened

19 in the Kljuc Municipality, killings, things of that nature. At the end of

20 your testimony yesterday, I asked you two questions and preceded them with

21 "bad things happened in Kljuc Municipality." The first question I asked

22 you was did any of those things happen because of the ARK Crisis Staff or

23 because Radoslav Brdjanin or the ARK Crisis Staff directed them to happen.

24 The second question I asked you was could Radoslav Brdjanin or the ARK

25 Crisis Staff have prevented any of those incidents or events. Is your

Page 22678

1 answer today any different from the answer you gave yesterday with regard

2 to those questions?

3 A. I abide by my reply of yesterday.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you very much for coming. I have no further

5 questions.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Judge Janu, do you have any questions?

7 Judge Janu from the Czech Republic has got some questions for you,

8 sir.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE JANU: Mr. Kalabic, I have just one question for you. You

11 are from Kljuc. You were in quite a high position in politics. Could you

12 assist the Chamber in giving us the names of the most dangerous Muslim

13 extremists from the Kljuc Municipality, of course.

14 A. I think this was exclusively Mr. Omer Filipovic, and that

15 everything revolved around him.

16 JUDGE JANU: So just this one name?

17 A. The others, for the most part, acted on his orders.

18 JUDGE JANU: That's all. Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Judge Taya, any questions?

20 Judge Taya from Japan also has a question for you, Mr. Kalabic.

21 JUDGE TAYA: I have for a question why Mr. Filipovic is so

22 dangerous, according to you.

23 A. He waged a policy in Kljuc, in my view, which led to the

24 escalation that took place. And he carried out everything that he

25 received on a daily basis from Sarajevo.

Page 22679


2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

3 Do you know what happened to Omer Filipovic?

4 A. I received information, or rather we, at the crisis staff in the

5 municipality, received information according to which Omer Filipovic died

6 in Manjaca.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: How did he die in Manjaca?

8 A. As for the explanation of how he died, nobody gave us that

9 information, although we did request it.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So even to date, you are not aware of how Omer

11 Filipovic died?

12 A. No. Even to date, of course, I don't have this information.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you, Mr. Kalabic, for having

14 come over. This is the end of your testimony here. On behalf of the

15 Tribunal, I wish you a safe journey back home. Thank you.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, anything else before we rise?

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's back to Mr. Ackerman's new and

19 exciting list. It states on it that Mr. Whatever his name is, Bojinovic,

20 number 17, may or may not be coming.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: He's soft.

22 MS. KORNER: I'd like to know when we're going to be told whether

23 he will be coming and if he's not coming, who's replacing him.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: There's a footnote there, and that's the answer.

25 MS. KORNER:. Yes, right, that's -- Your Honour, I'm afraid that's

Page 22680

1 not good enough.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I knew that no matter what I did it wouldn't be

3 good enough.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it if he was in a position to tell us today,

5 he would tell us today.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what I'm anxious to avoid is that we're

7 told on the Monday prior to the Wednesday that number 17 is being replaced

8 by somebody completely different and someone who may be a major witness.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do I have an undertaking from you that by Thursday

10 before the beginning -- before the 26th of November you will let us all

11 know whether Mr. Bojinovic is coming over or not.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Absolutely. Absolutely.


14 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, as yet, we've had no names of any

15 military expert, police expert --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: That's true as well, yes.

17 MS. KORNER: And I'd like to know if we're any further on that

18 one.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: We're no further on that one. So far, all of our

20 efforts have met with failure in both respects, and chances are we're not

21 going to have an expert of either kind, but I can't tell you exactly yet.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Now we have a short break of a few days

23 during which Mr. Ackerman and your team will be conducting your own

24 on-site inquiries, and I'm saying this in public because I want to avoid

25 the impression that we will not be sitting for a few days for some other

Page 22681

1 reason. These days are important for the Defence to reorganise its

2 efforts.

3 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that's absolutely correct. It's an

5 absolutely important mission that we have to undertake in Bosnia, and I'm

6 sorry to delay the trial, but it doesn't really delay the trial. It makes

7 it more efficient. When we come back from there, I think we will have a

8 final witness list and a final estimate for the Court on when we'll

9 complete the case. We intend to try to reduce witness numbers during this

10 trip, and I think we'll succeed in that. I think Your Honours will be

11 pleased with the results when we return.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And maybe you'll find a military expert

13 there.

14 So I thank you, and we will all meet again after your return from

15 Bosnia. Thank you.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.

17 To be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day of

18 November, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.