1 Friday, 28 November 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

7 This is the case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can

10 you -- Are you receiving interpretation in a language that you can

11 understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes I

13 can understand the proceedings.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. Please sit down. Appearances,

15 Prosecution.

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner,

17 Anna Richterova, assisted by Skye Winner.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good morning to you all. Appearances

19 for Radoslav Brdjanin.

20 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Good morning, Your Honours, David Cunningham with

21 Aleksandar Vujic.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you. So, let's start

23 with the rest of the Defence case. I understand Mr. Ackerman is still

24 sick.

25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: He is sick, Your Honours, and he sends his

1 apologies. I saw him this morning and he looked, to put it mildly, pretty

2 bad. He's still pretty sick. He took a -- he thought he was getting

3 better yesterday, but apparently he wasn't, so what we tried to do, as

4 best as we could, to answer the questions that this Chamber had with

5 respect to scheduling. And I -- this morning, I gave your legal officer

6 the schedule through the end of the break -- through the Christmas break,

7 along with an email that he had sent to Ken Roberts but I diverted to

8 Ms. Onsea. And I also can give you information about the constitutional

9 law expert.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I just interrupt for a minute. I

11 think there's a problem with the transcript at the moment.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I wasn't following the transcript.

13 MS. KORNER: It's not coming up on the screen.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right, Ms. Korner. It's not coming up on

15 the --

16 MS. KORNER: We'll wait while it's sorted.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. Thank you for pointing that out, Ms. Korner.

18 I was actually looking at the lists and trying to compare and -- okay.

19 MS. KORNER: Unusually for me, I'm looking at a computer screen.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Hello. Yes, it seems to be working now.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I understand it's now working.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. I thank you, Ms. Korner, once more,

23 sorry for the interruption which was due, as you all know, to a technical

24 hitch.

25 Let's start from here. Let's take it bit by bit.

1 I take it according to your note, Mr. Cunningham, that between now

2 and the recess, the following witnesses will be coming: Number 33, who

3 will come here before 31 and not as previously indicated.

4 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. 33, to be followed by 31. Then 34, then 40,

6 63, 64, 11, 8, and 27 which basically means that 38 for the time being is

7 being postponed. I mean, I suppose you said words to that effect

8 yesterday?

9 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: What about 42?

11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I can't give you an answer on that, Your Honour.

12 What I can tell you is what was in the -- it's doubtful. I take that

13 back, Your Honour. Mr. Vujic gave me a note. It is doubtful that he will

14 appear.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: 42. 10? 10, 24, 25, 14, and 21.

16 MR. CUNNINGHAM: In the email that was sent to Denise Gustin that

17 has been also provided for you today, it is still our intent to call those

18 witnesses.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that, okay. All right. Anyway, that's the

20 position for the time being, which basically gives us 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9,

21 10, 14 days. Do we have 14 days between now and the end -- when we go

22 into recess? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13. We don't

23 actually.

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Can I point out a couple of things to

25 Your Honours, please.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: With respect to Witnesses 64, 11 -- 63, 64, and

3 11, I doubt that those witnesses each would take one day. It is our hope,

4 as we talked about yesterday, to get those witnesses here so they can go

5 back to back to back so that we don't have any downtime. It's my guess,

6 because I think all three of those are my witnesses that instead of having

7 three days for those witnesses, it probably be done in two days, a total

8 of two days.

9 MS. KORNER: I'm not sure that's right, Your Honour, in respect

10 of -- there's one on that list who may take a little time. I'm not saying

11 an enormous time, but I wouldn't bank on it finishing in two days.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That is, of course, more your problem than mine. My

13 problem -- or our problem for the time being is that if my arithmetic is

14 correct, on this list, updated list, we are talking of 14 days. And in

15 actual fact, we only have 13 days. We have 5, 10, 13. We have 13 days.

16 So we'll have to work it in a way as to fit in those witnesses in 13 days

17 and not 14.

18 MS. KORNER: But that, Your Honour, includes sitting on the 12th

19 of December, the plenary.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: The position is still, Ms. Korner, I tried to send

21 you a message through Inge, and I sent the same message to Mr. Ackerman,

22 Mr. Cunningham. The 12th for the time being is scheduled as plenary.

23 MS. KORNER: Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: My anticipation is that we will either finish on

25 Thursday, plenary, or finish on Friday in the morning. It's up to you, if

1 you want to add an extra sitting on Friday, it's up to you. I think I can

2 convince Judge Janu and Judge Taya to agree to that.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I mean, Your Honour the reason I asked,

4 it's purely for personal reasons that I wanted to book a flight, but that

5 is irrelevant. Your Honour, where I think we're both in the same

6 situation that we're in Your Honours' hands. If Your Honours can sit on

7 Friday, I think it's probably helpful to get through the witnesses. But

8 if not, I'd understand.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: On the other hand, that would mean -- I mean, I

10 wouldn't know now what the position would be on Wednesday. So I frankly

11 don't know if it's wise to keep a witness standby here to continue on

12 Friday or to start another one on Friday knowing that we won't finish that

13 witness on Friday. I don't know. It's up to you. But I think if you

14 agree between you that we should try to work on Friday as well, then I

15 think even if the plenary is sitting, we could spare the afternoon,

16 because most of the work would have been -- most of the agenda would have

17 been cleared up in the plenary in any case. So if you need to sit on that

18 Friday, we can sit on that Friday. But it's up to you. And of course, I

19 am saying this without having first consulted Judge Janu and Judge Taya

20 who may not be in agreement with it.

21 So the position from our side, we could sit if you want to sit or

22 if you need to sit. All right? Thank you.

23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: There's something else I would like to point out

24 to the Chamber, and that involves Witnesses 33 and 31, which were

25 switched. Because of scheduling difficulties, it might be that Witness

1 number 33 will take a day and a half. It is my understanding from VWS

2 that Witness 31 will not be able to start until the next day, because he's

3 going to be arriving the day before he testifies. So, I bring that up

4 because I told you we would do our best to go back-to-back witnesses, but

5 because of travelling arrangements with respect to 33 and 31 --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So we're starting with 33 on Monday.

7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Right.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Which would mean we finish him off on Tuesday. And

9 the other one won't be able to start before Wednesday.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Right. And I just wanted to let you know that,

11 because I told you we were going to endeavour to do our best to get the

12 witnesses back to back, but I'm told by VWS that doesn't look like it'll

13 happen.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Wednesday. Which basically means that you have then

15 number 34, who would have started or should start on Thursday.

16 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Right.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And he was scheduled to testify for two days.

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: What I would suggest you do is we try to get rid of

20 those three witnesses in the course of next week just the same. In other

21 words, when you start with number 34 on Wednesday --

22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I think we would be -- it would be number 31 on

23 Wednesday.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: 31, sorry. Number 31 on Wednesday, we try to

25 conclude in one day instead of two days, or if that is not possible, at

1 least the following witness, number 34, would in any case have his

2 testimony concluded by the end of Friday.

3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I've got -- I'm doing both witnesses 31 and 34.

4 And so I'll keep that in mind when I put together my direct examination

5 and have these witnesses proofed.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Number 34 is Bosanski Novi. And I don't

8 think -- I think he's virtually the only witness that they're calling from

9 Bosanski Novi. And therefore, it may well be, Your Honour, if we've got

10 to deal with all the Novi matters through him, that he may have to stay

11 over the weekend.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not -- it's too early for me to agree or

13 disagree with that. If it is necessary, obviously, he will stay the

14 weekend. But we'll try to avoid that happening. Okay. I think if you

15 cooperate, both of you, and restrict your questions to the basics, we

16 could get over with his testimony by Friday. We'll see anyway because I

17 haven't read the summary of this witness as yet, so I'm not in a position

18 to know how important the witness is going to be. All right?

19 Anything else?

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, the only question that I didn't have

21 answered, and that is if there's a change in the expert who's testifying

22 on constitutional issues.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I don't want to say I misspoke, but I thought we

25 had an expert lined up on constitutional law. We do not. We had talked

1 to someone from Belgrade. That has fallen through because of health

2 reasons. And we have something in the works, but nothing has been

3 finalised as yet. It's on a day-to-day basis. If Mr. Ackerman's up to

4 it, he's going to try to contact our investigators in Banja Luka to see

5 what the status is of that. So --

6 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, we can forget the name of the expert we

7 were given in other words.

8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes.

9 MS. KORNER: So the only definite expert we have at the moment

10 whose report still hasn't been finalised and won't be before Christmas is

11 the historian.

12 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Correct.

13 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Anything else? So I thank you. And

15 when Mr. Ackerman comes back, we'll need to spend 15 or 20 minutes to go

16 through the schedule of the case starting when it is really anticipated

17 for your Defence case to come to a close, Mr. Cunningham. And then the

18 rest, rebuttal, rejoinder, et cetera. Anyway, we'll have to go through

19 that again.

20 Okay.

21 Madam Registrar, you can communicate with Ms. Carline Ameerali

22 that we are not in a position to concede to her request not to sit on

23 either the 15th, 16th, or 17th of December. We've got witnesses lined up

24 already, and we simply cannot afford to miss. And that we regret not to

25 be able to accommodate the Strugar Trial Chamber.

1 Witness. Because in addition to everything, we were asked not to

2 sit on the 15th, the 16th, and/or the 17th.

3 MS. KORNER: I don't think this will come as a great distress to

4 the people who are dealing with that particular trial.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a problem. It's becoming a problem. Space is

6 limited here. The work is increasing. Everyone is working really to

7 maximum capacity, starting from our staff. I mean I really appreciate the

8 amount -- the dedication they have. They work Saturdays and Sundays.

9 It's -- and it has become a necessity.

10 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I think we can say the same, both

11 sides of this Court, all of us find ourselves working weekends and late

12 into the evenings.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It shouldn't be like that. It shouldn't be like

14 that.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Bojinovic.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You are testifying on the basis of your solemn

19 declaration made yesterday which you don't need to repeat today.

20 Madam Richterova will be continuing with her series of questions.

21 Madam Richterova.

22 WITNESS: MILOS BOJINOVIC [Resumed]

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Cross-examined by Ms. Richterova: [Continued]

25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bojinovic.

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1 A. Good morning to you, too.

2 Q. I want to focus today on your work with the agency, but I have one

3 additional question which was not fully answered yesterday, and it's going

4 back to that meeting you had in 1991. And I was asking you who else was

5 present. And I mentioned Vojo Kupresanin. And your answer was: "I don't

6 remember him being there. I was not exactly in exactly in touch with

7 him."

8 Do you or did you know Vojo Kupresanin?

9 A. No, I did not know him until we met. It was only later that I

10 read in the press about him. I had never known him before.

11 Q. And when you say later, when was it? Which year?

12 A. 1993, possibly 1994.

13 Q. You didn't meet with him during the year 1992 when you were in

14 Banja Luka working for the agency?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Yesterday I also asked you whether you knew that Mr. Brdjanin was

17 a politician, and your answer was "no." As well, when I asked whether you

18 were aware of the fact that he was president of the ARK crisis staff. I

19 would like to show you Document P241. I have a copy which can be -- it's

20 the appointment.

21 You saw this document yesterday during the examination-in-chief by

22 Mr. Cunningham. Is it the same document you got from Boro Blagojevic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. This document was issued by Autonomous Region of Krajina

25 Crisis Staff of Banja Luka. And the signature block says: "President,

1 Radoslav Brdjanin." And there's a signature. When you got this document

2 from Boro Blagojevic, did you read it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you see who signed that document?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you knew Radoslav Brdjanin at that time, and you were able to

7 read that he was the president of the crisis staff. Isn't it correct?

8 A. Yes. You can see it if you look at the document.

9 Q. So at least on 12th of -- I'm sorry. At least on 1st of July when

10 you got this document, you were aware of the fact that he was president of

11 the crisis staff?

12 A. I was aware on the 1st of July when I arrived because I had seen

13 it in a document.

14 Q. So why did you tell the Court yesterday that you didn't know that

15 he was the president of the crisis staff?

16 A. Your question is not specific enough. I didn't know that he was

17 the president of the crisis staff before the 1st of July.

18 Q. My question was very general. I was asking whether you ever knew

19 that he was president, and your answer was no.

20 You told us that you were given this document by Boro Blagojevic,

21 and it says: "Decision to appoint Professor Milos Bojinovic from Glamoc

22 as chief of the agency for population movement and exchange of material

23 wealth." Did you ask Boro Blagojevic or anybody else at a later stage why

24 you were appointed to this position?

25 A. No.

1 Q. You never asked yourself or anybody else whether you had the

2 ability to do this work?

3 A. I asked myself, yes, indeed, I did.

4 Q. You asked yourself. Did you ask Boro Blagojevic to tell you what

5 exactly is your duty to work for such an agency?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So how did you know that you have the ability to do such work?

8 A. I don't know whether I had the ability. However, I assumed, which

9 was only natural, that people chose me because in my area and in those

10 areas generally speaking, the first refugees in Bosnia and Herzegovina

11 started coming in from Croatia, from the remaining parts of Bosnia

12 bordering on Glamoc Municipality.

13 Q. Before this appointment, did you personally deal with any refugee

14 problem?

15 A. No.

16 Q. So how people in Banja Luka who appointed you to this position

17 might have known that you are the right person with the capacity for this

18 work?

19 A. I have no idea how they could have known. I don't know if they

20 knew any other people. I can't answer this question with precision. I

21 can't tell you what other people thought or could have known. Maybe I was

22 the only person they knew.

23 Q. You said you were from Glamoc, which was a tiny place, and you

24 didn't know what went on in Banja Luka at that time and you didn't know

25 anybody in Banja Luka, but everybody knew you and everybody knew that you

1 are the right person for this job. Is it -- it's what you say?

2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object to the form of the question,

3 Your Honour, because there's five, six components to that question and

4 it's unfair to ask him because it's a compound question.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please rephrase your question, Ms. Richterova.

6 MS. RICHTEROVA:

7 Q. You were from Glamoc which was a small town, and you stated

8 yesterday you didn't know anybody in Banja Luka.

9 A. My apologies. This is not quite correct. I knew Mr. Ljupko Racic

10 with whom I arrived at the hotel. Please quote me accurately.

11 Q. You said Racic. Yesterday it was Lukaric. I think you mentioned

12 the name.

13 A. Yes. Allow me to give you a hand with this. His name is

14 Ljupko Racic.

15 Q. And this Ljupko Racic, did he work for the assembly in Banja Luka?

16 Did he have any important political position?

17 A. I knew him as a poet. He was a poet. My activities are quite

18 like his I should say.

19 Q. So he wasn't -- in your thinking, he wasn't the person who would

20 recommend you for a job for which you were appointed. Is it correct?

21 A. That's possible.

22 Q. How well did you know Mr. Racic?

23 A. From the media, I knew him as a poet. Later on, I had an

24 opportunity to meet him in Banja Luka as people in that line of business

25 usually do.

1 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, I think I will move on from this issue.

2 I will go back to this decision. It was issued by the crisis

3 staff. And you told yesterday, and it was -- when you were asked by

4 Mr. Cunningham whether you know crisis staff, your answer was yes. Did

5 you know about the crisis staff for the autonomous region --

6 A. Excuse me. Can you please go back to the first statement you made

7 because I'm afraid I didn't quite understand.

8 Q. Yes, I can.

9 Yesterday, you were asked by Mr. Cunningham: "Did you know about

10 the crisis staff for the Autonomous Region of Krajina? Had you heard of

11 that when you assumed this position?" And your answer was: "Yes." Is it

12 correct? Did you --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you aware of the existence of the crisis staff?

15 A. Yes. After I'd arrived in Banja Luka, I had received a document

16 which had the name "Crisis Staff" on it.

17 Q. What else did you know about the crisis staff? Did you know who

18 were members of the crisis staff?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you know that the crisis staff was at that time equal to the

21 government of ARK?

22 A. No.

23 Q. But Mr. Bojinovic, you were appointed by this decision to the

24 position of chief. You consider this appointment has been a legal

25 appointment? Otherwise, you would not take it, would you?

1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object to the form of the question

2 because it calls on him to make a legal conclusion.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't agree with you. One moment.

4 Yes. I don't agree with you. Let's rephrase the question.

5 Did you have any reason to doubt that your appointment was a legal

6 one, was a legally valid one?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not consider that.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And why didn't you consider that?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether it's necessary

10 to consider meaningless things.

11 MS. RICHTEROVA:

12 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, you want to tell us that it was meaningless. You

13 were appointed to an important position. You became a director of an

14 agency. There were people subordinated to you. You were receiving

15 salary. And you didn't think about the fact whether it was right

16 appointment or not, whether it was a legal appointment?

17 A. When an employee starts working, he does not exactly consider

18 whether his employment is legal or not. He just gets down to it, and so

19 did I. I did not consider the legal aspects of the matter simply because

20 there was someone else in charge of that. It wasn't my job to consider

21 legal matters and whether my employment had been legal or not.

22 Q. Do you want to tell us that you would take such a position even if

23 it was illegal?

24 A. I say exactly what I wish to say. You often ask me "is this what

25 you want to say"? Please let me make this clear, when I want to say

1 something, I say it, so please keep that in mind.

2 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, you received the decision from Mr. Blagojevic, and

3 you told us yesterday that you received no instructions from him.

4 Did you ask him, "What am I supposed to do, what are my duties"?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you or someone else put that question

6 already, and he answered no. He never bothered to ask anything. This is

7 precisely what I find very strange, Mr. Bojinovic. Just figure it out

8 today I'm approached by someone, and they tell me, "You're no longer going

9 to do the job of a Judge on the ICTY. Please go to Bronovo Hospital here

10 and you are going to become the general manager of one of the main

11 hospitals here in The Hague, or go to the Central Bank of the Netherlands,

12 and you're going to become the governor of the Central Bank of the

13 Netherlands."

14 I would find it very strange that I am asked to do a job that I

15 have never done before and which is not in my line of expertise. Moving

16 from being a teacher to the front and to becoming a director of what on

17 the document is specifically described as an important -- the document

18 that you were given says: "This agency is of general interest for the

19 Serbian people of the Autonomous Region of Krajina and all of the

20 functions must, therefore, be subordinated to it." Such an important

21 post, such an important position, and you right from the front you find

22 yourself occupying the highest position in this organisation, and you go

23 there, you don't bother about anything. You don't even ask what it

24 entails, what your job entails, what your salary is going to be. Nothing.

25 You just go and you don't even know where the place is. It takes

1 you an hour and a half to find it. I find it a little bit -- not a little

2 bit, I find it very strange. Perhaps I would like you to comment on it.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. This agency was no

4 special institution that people had to be specially trained to work for.

5 This agency had two specific tasks which I spoke about yesterday. It was

6 to give assistance to people exchanging their addresses. This required no

7 special qualifications. You only had to be an upright man, an honest man.

8 Secondly, the agency was meant to facilitate travel. For this,

9 you did not need to be specially trained. You consider this agency as

10 something that was at the same level as, for example, a bank. But you

11 can't compare the job of a bank manager, of a hospital manager to an

12 ordinary agency providing ordinary service to citizens. Useful service,

13 however, very much in demand by those very same citizens.

14 It strikes me as strange, to say the least, to be faced with

15 statements where it is assumed that I was taking up some very important,

16 high-level duties that I had never discharged before. No one would have

17 been able to carry out these duties before the war. What sort of man

18 would it have taken? There was no war back then, therefore no such jobs

19 of this precise nature were ever around.

20 MS. RICHTEROVA:

21 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, you just tell us that the main goal or the main aim

22 of this agency was to assist people moving out, exchange addresses. But

23 you didn't know the aim, the goal of this agency. You didn't know

24 anything about your task, about your duties. The moment you received this

25 decision --

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1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, I'm going to object to questions like this

2 because they are comments, not questions.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: The strange thing about it, Mr. Cunningham, and the

4 witness in a very able manner has been trying to avoid answering the

5 question that is most important for us to know. How on earth that at a

6 certain point in time you're called, you're summoned. You're given a

7 paper, a document, by a person telling you that you are going to -- you

8 have been appointed as director of an agency, and you don't bother to ask

9 what your job is all about. This is what baffles me. And this is what

10 Mr. Bojinovic has not answered as yet.

11 MS. RICHTEROVA:

12 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, I will move --

13 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'd like to have him have the opportunity to

14 answer the question.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course, I expect him to answer the question,

16 but it has been asked of him several times already and each time he goes

17 around in circles.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I please answer the question,

19 now.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, at last.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, the job description is on

22 this paper; anyone who can read can see for themselves. What it says is

23 the following: "Appointment of chief of the agency for population

24 movement and exchange of material wealth." It is stated here very

25 clearly. Anyone who can read can see it for themselves. Later on, it

1 would turn out that people had other needs, too.

2 In wartime, it's very difficult to predict what people might need

3 and what sort of assistance you might be required to give. You will have

4 to provide whatever assistance is required, and I think that's perfectly

5 clear.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. You still didn't ask Mr. Blagojevic

7 [Realtime transcript read in error "Mr. Bojinovic] for any information or

8 anyone else for that matter on this agency, because you read the document

9 and you said, "Okay, it's clear enough. I know what it is all about. I

10 can go straight to the office and start from today. I don't need to ask

11 any questions to anyone." That's your attitude? That was your attitude

12 at the time?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this a question?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course it's a question.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was only natural when I

16 arrived in the agency that people were working. I familiarised myself

17 with the work they were carrying out. It was impossible for anyone to

18 know in advance what they were going to do. And the same goes for

19 Boro Blagojevic. He was not familiar with the specific tasks. However,

20 when I came to the agency, the people working there, the people I was

21 working with, told me precisely what was happening and what was to be done

22 and how. And that's how I familiarised myself with my duties, not from

23 someone who was external to these matters.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: How do you know that Mr. Blagojevic himself didn't

25 know what the functions and duties of the chief of the agency were? If

1 you never asked him, how can you make such a statement?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure I understand your

3 question. Can you please clarify.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You said, in answering the previous question,

5 it was impossible for anyone to know in advance what they were going to

6 do. And the same goes for Boro Blagojevic. He was not familiar with the

7 specific tasks. How do you know that he was not familiar with the

8 specific tasks when you yourself have just told us that you never asked

9 him for any information on your functions and duties and responsibilities

10 as chief of the agency? If you didn't ask him, how can you state that he

11 didn't know what the specific tasks were?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not stating that. I do not

13 know specifically whether he knew or did not know, but he never told me

14 about it, and I never asked. It was my opinion that I should familiarise

15 myself with the nature of my job on the spot with people who had already

16 worked for the agency.

17 Please, try to keep things -- you are trying to keep things as

18 accurate as possible, and I understand that perfectly well, but I can't

19 provide a clear answer to these questions because I simply don't know the

20 answers. I tried to tell you the truth. I thought I would familiarise

21 myself with my tasks on the spot once I started working. In a very

22 general sense, if I look at the document, I see what the job is about.

23 Assistance with population movement and exchange of material wealth, which

24 did not strike me as a very complex matter.

25 MS. RICHTEROVA:

1 Q. Mr. --

2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Can I just make a transcript correction, Your

3 Honour, on page 17, I think it's line 24, it should read: "Blagojevic,"

4 rather than Bojinovic. I think your question was you didn't ask

5 Mr. Blagojevic.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, no. Of course not. Thank you, Mr.

7 Cunningham. I'm going to stop him here. I'm going to give him back to

8 you. In other words, I'm not going to pursue the matter myself because

9 he's not my witness anyway.

10 Yes.

11 MS. RICHTEROVA:

12 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, only one question with respect to this appointment:

13 Did you sign any work contract? Did you sign either this decision or a

14 work contract that you were appointed to this position?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And you didn't sign and you didn't receive any documents stating

17 your duties, rights and duties? Is it correct?

18 A. Only this document, nothing else.

19 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, you arrived to the agency. You described the

20 building. Do you know what was the name of the area? Was it in some part

21 of Banja Luka with some specific name?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was the name of that area?

24 A. This area was called Mejdan.

25 Q. After you started working for this agency, did you still live in

1 Glamoc, or did you move to Banja Luka?

2 A. My work, my job was in Banja Luka. I hardly went back to Glamoc,

3 due mainly to war operations. There was actually no great need for me to

4 go back to Glamoc as my job was in Banja Luka.

5 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... You stayed in Banja Luka?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And during the months you lived in Banja Luka, you learned that

8 Mejdan was a quarter in which prevailed Muslim population. Is it correct?

9 A. No. I did not know which ethnic group was living where. No, I

10 didn't know.

11 Q. Back to the agency, you said there was some offices. Do you know

12 who provided the offices for the agency?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You mentioned there were some equipments like fax, telephone, et

15 cetera. Do you know who provided the equipment?

16 A. Yes. The equipment was owned by Perka and Slobodan Bandic.

17 Q. Did you know whether they provided -- and you say that you didn't

18 know who provided the premises for the agency?

19 A. No.

20 Q. I put to you that it was the same couple who provided the offices

21 for the agency.

22 A. It's possible.

23 Q. Did you have any computers?

24 A. I think not.

25 Q. Not during the whole time the agency functioned?

1 A. No.

2 Q. You stated that when you arrived to the agency on 1st of July,

3 there are already four employees, including Perka Bandic and her husband.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know who hired them?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Then you stated that, because you had more and more work, you had

8 to hire another employee. Who hired the employee who joined --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- the agency at a later stage?

11 A. Since it was necessary --

12 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... Was it you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you issue the working contract?

15 A. No.

16 Q. So who issued them the working contract?

17 A. No one. Work contracts were not signed during the war.

18 Q. So they work in your company without any documents proving that

19 they worked?

20 A. Could I please ask the interpreter to speak up, or could my volume

21 be turned up. Yes.

22 Q. Do you want me to repeat the question?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I suppose you better do, Ms. Richterova.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine.

25 MS. RICHTEROVA:

1 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, do you tell us that these people worked for the

2 agency without documents proving that they are employees of the agency?

3 A. These people did not get the kind of contracts people

4 traditionally had. But they were covered by social insurance. Their

5 years of service were registered towards their pension. So that's the

6 documentation involved. But they did not have a decision on appointment

7 the way I did.

8 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, do you say that the agency already functioned

9 before 1st of July, before your arrival?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That already exchange of apartments, moving people took place

12 before your arrival?

13 A. No. If it's necessary, I can explain this to you.

14 Q. I suggest that the agency started working after you arrived to the

15 agency, after the 1st of July.

16 A. It did work before I arrived, in June, and I think in the end of

17 May. That's what the employees told me, the ones I found there at the

18 agency. However, they worked in the premises of the municipality where

19 they registered refugees who sought assistance.

20 Q. But, Mr. Bojinovic, it was a different operation that you started

21 after the 1st of July. Is it correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, you hired other people. You stated -- you answered

24 the question: "Why were the additional people hired on?" And your answer

25 was: "Because the scope of work was such that four people were burdened

1 enough to do the job." What was the scope at the beginning and later on?

2 In which way the work changed?

3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'd ask that she clarify whether it's the scope

4 when the agency opened, the scope when he came on so he can answer.

5 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you can rephrase the question,

7 Madam Richterova, to make it clearer.

8 MS. RICHTEROVA:

9 Q. You arrived on the 1st of July. There were four employees. And

10 was it enough for the work you did at that time when you arrived?

11 A. Yes, at first.

12 Q. So in which way the amount of work changed?

13 A. Before my arrival, people were registered in some municipal

14 office. When the number of persons seeking assistance went up, then it

15 became increasingly necessary to employ other persons as well. Now, what

16 did this increase in the volume of work imply? People of other ethnic

17 backgrounds started applying for assistance.

18 Q. But you stated that, in fact, the only thing you did was you

19 registered people and you put them on the buses. So why did you need more

20 employees for this type of job?

21 A. I did not say what you said just now. I said that the agency did

22 not only register persons and load them on to buses. Agency provided

23 information, addresses, telephone numbers. It recorded in its notebooks

24 the files of persons who applied. So in a way, this was a professional

25 secret, and people felt safe when addressing the agency. It became

1 increasingly necessary to -- yes.

2 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, you said "notebooks" -- I'm sorry, it recorded in

3 its notebook the files of person who applied. Who applied for what?

4 A. They applied, first of all, to provide information about their

5 property, information on their address and telephone number so that we

6 could bring them into touch with persons who were interested in similar or

7 identical matters.

8 Q. We will go in more details about the functioning of your agency.

9 Now, I would like to ask you a few questions about the people who

10 worked for the agency. We were briefly talking about Perka Bandic and her

11 husband. Then you mentioned Milan Segrt and Radovan Jovic.

12 I would like to show the witness one document. It's a document

13 which I gave to Mr. Cunningham this morning. It came up during the

14 searches last night. I only want to ask -- this is for the witness -- one

15 question, if we could put this on the ELMO, just the last page.

16 Mr. Bojinovic, if you could go to the last page, just for you,

17 because the Judges do not have the document. If we could place the top of

18 this document. It is Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

19 Livno Municipal Board, dated 21st March 1992. And if we can go now to the

20 last page, the signature says president or chairman, Milan Segrt;

21 secretary, Radovan Jovic. Are these the same persons who worked with you

22 with the agency?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And do you remember that Mr. Radovan Jovic was present during

25 these initial sessions to found SDS in Drvar? Is it the same

1 Radovan Jovic?

2 A. I don't know, from Drvar, I mean. I don't know.

3 Q. I would like to show you one more document.

4 MS. RICHTEROVA: I would like to tender into evidence this

5 document.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection, Mr. Cunningham?

7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: None.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

9 Can we have a number, exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: P2708.

11 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

13 MS. RICHTEROVA: And I will provide Your Honours with copies after

14 the break.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: If we could -- yes.

17 Q. This is an open source. It's an article Feljton about creation of

18 the SDS which describes the situation on the 4th of July 1990.

19 Mr. Bojinovic, if you could go to page -- the second page, there

20 are three columns. So if you could have a look in the second column, and

21 it says: "Present," and you will see under -- did you find it?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. And you can see under number 5, Bojinovic Milos, Glamoc. Is it

24 you?

25 A. Yes, yes.

1 Q. Number 7, Jovic Radovan, Livno?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And Karadzic, Radovan?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you still say that you don't know whether Radovan Jovic who

6 worked with you at the agency was the same person who were present during

7 the meetings of the -- founding meetings of the SDS?

8 A. This list of persons was not compiled by me. It was compiled by

9 the person who wrote this. Now, who wrote this, I don't know. Probably

10 someone expressed an interest in the persons present and wrote down their

11 names. Until the 4th of July, I did not know anyone. None of the people

12 who are mentioned here. I only knew Mr. Jovic from before as a journalist

13 from Livno. Now whether he was in Drvar, I don't know. I cannot confirm

14 that.

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm done with this document.

16 Q. But is it correct that both Milan Segrt and Radovan Jovic were

17 members of SDS from Livno?

18 A. I don't know about that. They know that.

19 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, I just showed you the documents, and you stated

20 that yes --

21 A. Yes, probably, if they have the seal of the municipal board of the

22 SDS of Livno, yes, they probably were. But I cannot explicitly say yes or

23 no.

24 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, you worked with these people for six months, and

25 you didn't know anything about them? Is it what you want to tell us?

1 A. No, that is not what I wish to say. I did not work with these

2 people for six months. I worked with these people less. They came later.

3 They came after I came.

4 Q. And they were refugees from Livno, these two -- these two men?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. And there were other employees --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- and all of them refugees. Is it correct?

9 A. Not all of them.

10 Q. Apart from Perka Bandic and her husband, a prevailing amount of

11 people working for the agency were Serb refugees. Is it correct?

12 A. Not only Serb. I told you yesterday, if you remember, Valentina

13 was in a mixed marriage with a Croat. Ankica Luzaic, I don't know what

14 her ethnic background is. I assume that she was a Croat. Mira Borkovic a

15 refugee from Zagreb, I don't know her ethnicity either. I didn't ask.

16 But I know that Perka and Slobodan were not refugees.

17 Q. I put to you, Mr. Bojinovic, that all of the employees were Serb

18 and most of them were Serb refugees.

19 I would just like -- I'm sorry. Do you agree with this?

20 A. No. I have said that I do not know what people's ethnic

21 backgrounds were, and I was not interested in that. I just know that the

22 Bandics were not refugees, and I know that Stevo Gojanovic, Milan Segrt,

23 and Radovan Jovic were ethnic Serbs. I don't know about the rest.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: He was asked this question yesterday, and we went

25 through the list one by one. Thank you.

1 MS. RICHTEROVA:

2 Q. I want to talk briefly about Valentina Budimic. And you say:

3 "Practically, Valentina didn't have much to do, so she was there just in

4 case there might be something for her." Why was she there and why was she

5 paid the same amount of --

6 MR. CUNNINGHAM: It's a compound question.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

8 MS. RICHTEROVA:

9 Q. Valentina Budimic, Mr. Bojinovic, she was a lawyer. And you said

10 she practically didn't have much to do. Why was she paid the same amount

11 of money as the other employee at her category?

12 A. Valentina was a lawyer. She was employed if it ever became

13 necessary, as it didn't, but she had other things to do in terms of

14 maintaining order, giving information, sending people to the right place.

15 But she was not paid like all the others. She was paid according to her

16 own coefficient, the one that is regulated by law.

17 Q. What did she actually ever do?

18 A. She helped the secretary, Perka Bandic, in respect of those

19 matters. She could take a piece of paper from the office, put up a sheet

20 of paper by way of information down there, things like that.

21 Q. So Mr. Bojinovic, this Valentina Budimic, a lawyer, who was

22 supposed to be there to provide legal aid, in fact, hadn't done any legal

23 work whatsoever?

24 A. If any citizen had any papers, any forged papers, something that

25 did not look like a real document, it would only be natural for the lawyer

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1 to look at this, if there was the proper letterhead, stamp, et cetera,

2 because that is the job of a lawyer. So she was appointed to that

3 position in order to possibly render legal services, possibly.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one moment. Did Slobodan Bandic have a

5 university degree?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Did Perka Bandic have a university degree?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And the coefficient according to the December

10 payroll is 2, which is also the coefficient for Valentina Budimic, who's a

11 lawyer and who had, therefore, I assume, a university degree. How come

12 they have the same coefficient? You tried to explain to us yesterday that

13 the coefficient was based on one's university -- one's level of education.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This coefficient depends on the

15 complexity of the work that an employee performs in addition to the

16 diploma the person concerned has. The job that Perka Bandic had involved

17 complex work, although she did not have a university diploma. Also, the

18 job held by Slobodan Bandic involved very complex work, although he did

19 not have an university diploma. He was out in the field every day in the

20 car, and that is not the same thing as sitting in an office at the agency.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And you consider that very complex work compared to

22 the work that Valentina Budimic had to do?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not consider that to be complex

24 work, but that's the way it's regulated.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And while we are at coefficients, can

1 you explain to me also why it seems in the beginning Bandic Perka had a

2 coefficient of 2.5, Slobodan Bandic had a coefficient of 2.4. That's in

3 July. And then in December, these two persons who had a lot of

4 responsibilities as you explained had their coefficient reduced to 2.0,

5 just 2. Is there a reason why their coefficient is no longer 2.5 and 2.4

6 respectively, but 2?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Richterova. I'm not trying to complicate

9 matters for you, believe me.

10 I think we could have the break now.

11 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, I just wanted to say that it's the right

12 time.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Twenty-five minutes, and we will reconvene soon

14 after. Thank you.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Richterova.

18 MS. RICHTEROVA:

19 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, before the break, we were talking about salaries of

20 various employees of the agency. Can you tell the Judges where did the

21 money come from to pay the salaries?

22 A. The money came from the fees that were charged only, fees for

23 various services, which included paying for a travel ticket mainly.

24 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, you had told us yesterday that you charged -- you

25 charged something around 14.000 dinars. Is it correct?

1 A. I'm not sure the question is clear.

2 Q. I apologise that I wasn't clear enough. You asked for 14.000

3 dinars to pay for the tickets --

4 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That was at a specific time in October, so I'm

5 going to object to that unless she can specify the time period.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you need to do that, Madam Richterova. At

7 least specify whether there was a standard fee throughout the whole period

8 during which he was chief of the agency, if he can answer that and then we

9 take it from there.

10 MS. RICHTEROVA:

11 Q. Was there a standard fee for the whole period of time you worked

12 for the agency?

13 A. The travel fee was a standard one. The figure itself changed, at

14 least the figure in dinars as a result of the inflation.

15 Q. And you say that people paid mainly in dinars?

16 A. Only. There were cases where a person did not have any dinars.

17 This person was allowed to pay in German mark, but normally the

18 transactions were made in dinars because it was possible to exchange money

19 in a different place.

20 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, I put to you that you were accepting mainly

21 Deutschemarks. And it wasn't 14.000 of dinars as stated yesterday in

22 October 1992, but it was at the very least between 30 and 50

23 Deutschemarks. Do you agree with this?

24 A. I can't remember the specific amount. But if the ticket was paid

25 in German marks, it would have been limited by regulations. Of course,

1 citizens who were not in possession of dinars were probably in possession

2 of another foreign currency. It was not necessarily the German mark.

3 Dinar was the usual currency used for these transactions, but if someone

4 didn't have dinars, the person could also pay in another currency.

5 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, I suggest to you that you were asking and you were

6 paid only in Deutschemarks, and I suggest to you that you were charging

7 something between 100 and 300 deutschemarks. Do you agree with that?

8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: She is asking him to agree with four different

9 things. It's a compound --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's take them one by one. I agree with you,

11 Mr. Cunningham. Let's take them one by one. Ms. Richterova, you can do

12 this yourself. Let's start with the first question.

13 MS. RICHTEROVA:

14 Q. The first question was that I suggest to you that you were paid by

15 people who were leaving Banja Luka only in Deutschemarks. Do you agree

16 with that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And I suggest to you that you charged not 30, not 50, but you

19 charged 100 -- between 100 and 300 deutschemarks. Do you agree with this?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Yesterday, we were talking among others about what kind of

22 service --

23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24 MS. RICHTEROVA:

25 Q. Yesterday, you were talking about the service, the kinds of

1 service you provided. And you were shown by Mr. Cunningham Exhibit DB260.

2 I do not want to go into details, but I think I will show you the document

3 to refresh your memory about...

4 You saw this document yesterday?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you give this document to the Defence?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And do you know where these documents which were obviously issued

9 by your agency, where they are now?

10 A. No. This document in front of me is not signed. Therefore, this

11 is a hypothetical document.

12 Q. You say it's a hypothetical document. Does it mean that it wasn't

13 issued by the agency?

14 A. No, this was issued by the agency, but the signature is missing.

15 This is just an ordinary announcement that was placed on the glass pane

16 for people to look at.

17 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, this document is dated 25th of November 1992. Is

18 it correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You started working in July 1992. It's correct?

21 A. That's correct. Yes.

22 Q. And you stated that you were providing all kinds of services right

23 from the beginning of your functioning as an agency for exchange of

24 population. Is it correct?

25 A. I've told you about the kinds of services provided earlier.

1 Should I repeat that?

2 Q. No, I want to ask, you stated, and if you want I can read you all

3 the questions which you were asked and what were your answers, but I will

4 just summarise. When you were asked whether you organised furniture

5 removal, your answer was no. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That you didn't organise convoys of private luxury vehicles. And

8 I want to stress "luxury" vehicles. Is it correct?

9 A. Luxury vehicles? No, no luxury vehicles were used. What exactly

10 do you mean by "luxury vehicle"?

11 Q. I mean exactly what is written in this document, "luxury

12 vehicles." And your answer was: "No luxury vehicles were put on

13 convoys."

14 Under point 4, "conducts exchange of apartments..." And again,

15 your answer was no. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you didn't make any contracts between the parties who managed

18 to agree on an exchange. Is it correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So what is the purpose of this document? Because -- what is the

21 purpose of this document?

22 A. This is not a document. This is just an announcement. Probably

23 you're misled by the date, the 25th of November 1992. This announcement

24 was actually made much earlier. Probably someone simply typed up the same

25 announcement again, but the original announcement dates back to an earlier

1 period of time. They just put the same date on it. This would not have

2 meant anything if it was displayed without a signature. Therefore, we are

3 talking about a sheet of paper that has no value or meaning at all.

4 Q. But Mr. Bojinovic, you have never provided this type of service.

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the form of the question because I

6 don't know what "this type of service" refers to, one of the four -- one

7 of the five things listed.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Which specific type of service are you referring to?

9 MS. RICHTEROVA:

10 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, you have never provided the service of organising

11 furniture removal. Is it correct? And to be just brief, you never

12 provided any services under point 2, 3, 4, and 5. Do you agree?

13 A. The services were provided in two basic ways: The transport of

14 people, making it possible for people to travel, firstly; and secondly,

15 making it possible for people to obtain addresses of other interested

16 person so they could eventually meet and reach agreements. As for the

17 remaining services, the removal of furnitures and trucks, the answer is

18 no. Luxury vehicles, the answer is no. As I said yesterday, the vehicles

19 that we were able to organise were not luxury vehicles. They were rather

20 poor vehicles, and those were organised only for persons with families and

21 children.

22 Q. You answered this question yesterday, and I think you already

23 exhausted this issue.

24 Mr. Bojinovic, I want to put to you that the only service you

25 provided was to move non-Serbs from Banja Luka.

1 A. That's your assumption. This is not correct. Moving people was

2 not the only service we provided. Can you please tell me in that case

3 what sort of service would this be? How did they come to be included on

4 the list of people to be transported? How were they registered in the

5 first place? But I commented on that yesterday, so I suppose there's no

6 need for me to go back to that now.

7 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, I want to ask you an explanation. I will read you

8 part of your testimony from yesterday. It was answer to Mr. Cunningham's

9 question, and you state --

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Can I get the LiveNote page reference, please.

11 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, I'm going to do it. It's page 20, and it's

12 line 19 and further.

13 Q. And your answer was: "The agency was established with the aim of

14 assisting people of all ethnicities in the area of the AR Krajina because

15 there was a war in order to prevent the population from suffering the war

16 and to prevent any illegal acts. And unfortunately, there were many of

17 such acts. The agency was established for the protection of people and

18 providing them with the necessary service."

19 Can you be more specific. What did you mean by these "illegal

20 acts"?

21 A. I'll be glad to answer that question. The war broke out. There

22 was unrest. There was disorder. In order to prevent unofficial elements,

23 for example, thieves, violent persons, people who abused drugs, drunks, I

24 suppose it's the same more or less in every community, it was to prevent

25 those from mistreating other people. For that purpose, the population had

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1 to be protected from these unofficial elements of society.

2 Q. But in which way your agency was protecting these people against

3 these unofficial elements?

4 A. In the following way: Whoever felt unsafe in a war-torn area

5 would address the agency. The agency would find a way for them to protect

6 their property by having it exchanged or given to be used by someone else,

7 by simply leaving a dangerous area. The citizens couldn't just ask for

8 this kind of thing from anyone. But the agency was there for them to

9 provide this kind of service.

10 Q. And who were the people who felt unsafe and turned to your agency?

11 What ethnicity?

12 A. Various ethnicities. For example, Muslims, Croats, Muslims and

13 Croats from mixed marriages, Serbs from mixed marriages, Yugoslavs. There

14 were pure ethnic Serbs also who left for Serbia who did not wish to remain

15 in a war-torn area. It's a well-known fact. Not everyone went to the

16 front. Some of the people did not have the courage to go. So we talk

17 about the various ethnicities. Perhaps what you want to know who were the

18 majority of people who were leaving or who were jeopardised.

19 Q. Tell us, who was the majority of people who were leaving

20 Banja Luka?

21 A. The majority were Muslims.

22 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, yesterday we were also talking about the buses who

23 were leaving, the convoys, and how many times per month, per week. And

24 your answer was, it's page 31, line 8: "On a monthly basis, it may have

25 been twice, perhaps three departures." I want to show you a document.

1 It's DB254. And I will show it to you just to refresh your memory because

2 you were shown this document yesterday.

3 Mr. Bojinovic, did you give this document to the Defence?

4 A. No. I did not have any documents in my possession. Therefore, I

5 was in no position to provide the Defence with any documents.

6 Q. I want to you have a look at the point 5. And it says --

7 It says: "The convoys going to Stari Grahovac depart twice a

8 week, specifically Wednesday and Friday, but in the future they will

9 depart on Tuesday and Friday."

10 Isn't it true that, in fact, it wasn't twice a month, but it was

11 at least twice a week when the convoys depart from Banja Luka?

12 A. This contract on cooperation is an attempt to establish some form

13 of focussed cooperation. This was a proposal for possible transport. But

14 this transport in cooperation with the DOMET company never came to

15 anything.

16 Q. I agree with you, but you didn't answer my question. Isn't it

17 right that it wasn't twice a month but it was twice a week?

18 A. No. It would not have been possible to organise two departures a

19 week, even in peacetime.

20 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm done with this document.

21 Q. Now I would like to ask you just a few questions about the

22 procedure of leaving. And you stated that the only thing which people

23 needed to be registered with the agency is that they would have

24 confirmation that they -- I have to find it exactly. That you need to

25 obtain a document that you have registered out of your place of residence.

1 Was it really the only document which people have to obtain to be able to

2 leave Banja Luka?

3 A. Banja Luka was not the only place where people were leaving. This

4 document indeed was required. In order to be able to leave, you had to

5 register out with the local police which was proof that the citizen had

6 been authorised to travel anywhere they chose to.

7 Q. You just stated that there were other people, not only from

8 Banja Luka. From which other places people were using the agency?

9 A. As you saw yesterday, there was a married couple from Gradiska,

10 for example.

11 Q. And which other -- from which other municipalities were there

12 people?

13 A. I can't say right now. It was from any area of the Autonomous

14 Region of Krajina that people could address us and expect to receive

15 assistance. I can't name the exact towns right now.

16 Q. Would you agree that there were people from Sipovo?

17 A. It's possible.

18 Q. And Glamoc?

19 A. Yes, from Glamoc. By all means, yes.

20 Q. I will go back to this document, and you stated that they need to

21 have this document from police. Isn't it true that the people also needed

22 to bring certificate about taxes, paying taxes?

23 A. Can you either complete the question or repeat the question,

24 please. Repeat, please.

25 Q. Did people need to have a certificate that they paid all taxes to

1 the municipality?

2 A. We were no tax inspectors. No, the answer is no.

3 Q. You state that people didn't need to bring you certificates from

4 the post office that they paid all their bills?

5 A. Any person who obtains a certificate on registering out from the

6 local police has at that point complied with all of his duties. There was

7 no way for anyone to obtain this sort of certificate from the police if

8 they had not settled all their bills in the first place.

9 Q. So you state that people don't need to provide your agency with

10 anything else but the document that they had registered out from their

11 place of residence?

12 A. Yes. Why would anyone from Glamoc, for example, need to show the

13 agency any proof that they would settled their telephone bills or rent or

14 anything? It was the duty of those working with the police.

15 Q. And apart from this document, you tell the Court that they didn't

16 need to have a certificate that they are leaving any municipality

17 voluntarily?

18 A. Please repeat that.

19 Q. Did they need a certificate, the people who were leaving, did they

20 need a certificate stating that they are leaving on a voluntary basis and

21 permanently?

22 A. No. No.

23 Q. And did they need to sign over their property to the municipality

24 which they were leaving?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Yesterday, you were talking about limitation of money, and your

2 answer, it's on page 42. You were asked: "Did you as head of this agency

3 ever receive any directives, orders, any suggestions, anything whatsoever

4 that told you to limit the amount of money departing passengers could take

5 with them?"

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do I understand that you say you never received? I'm sorry, it

8 was a little bit --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what he said yesterday.

10 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes.

11 Q. You said no.

12 A. Never. I never received such instructions.

13 Q. And did you ever see such an instruction?

14 A. No. Only here, yesterday, you showed me an Official Gazette from

15 the time before I came to Banja Luka. I had not been familiar with that

16 Official Gazette, and it was not complied with.

17 Q. I will show the witness a document.

18 MS. RICHTEROVA: It's P294. If we could put in English the first

19 page.

20 Q. And in B/C/S I will read for you the first sentence. This

21 document is dated the 31st of July 1992, and it was issued by Banja Luka

22 CSB. We can see on the page 2 that it was signed by -- the signature

23 block is stating chief of the centre, Stojan Zupljanin.

24 The first sentence says: "Recently, through the mediation of the

25 Red Cross, the Caritas organisation and the Population Resettlement

1 Bureau, large numbers of Croats and Muslims have begun to depart from the

2 Autonomous Region... Since we have learned that these persons are

3 removing large sums of foreign currency from AR Krajina with the aim of

4 standardising procedures in the inspection of convoys, we hereby issue the

5 following instructions."

6 Then there are these instructions which you read yesterday.

7 "Individuals leaving the Autonomous Region of Krajina may take with them

8 a maximum of 300 Deutschemarks..."

9 And Mr. Bojinovic, if you could go, for you, to page 2, it's on

10 the top. In the English version, it's on the bottom of page number 1.

11 And it says: "From every natural person who, for whatever reason, leaves

12 the territory of the AR, Autonomous Region of Krajina, and attempts to

13 take with him a greater amount of foreign currency than legally allowed,

14 that amount (in excess of 300 deutschemark) shall be taken from him and

15 the prescribed certificate of temporary seizure issued."

16 When we were -- when I read you the first part, I read to you

17 "with the aim of standardising procedures in the inspection of convoys."

18 Are you really telling us that there were no searches taking place with

19 respect to convoys your agency organised?

20 A. From the 1st of July 1992 when I came there, that never happened.

21 Q. There were no searches whatsoever, not searches for money?

22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I believe he just answered that, Your Honour.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

25 MS. RICHTEROVA:

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1 Q. Not searches for jewellery?

2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object. It's repetitive. He's

3 already said there were no searches.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: He just said there were no searches for anything.

5 MS. RICHTEROVA:

6 Q. Were there searches for weapons?

7 A. At the border, near Gradiska, passengers were checked in terms of

8 whether they had any explosives which was only natural. So that was at

9 the border. That was done at the border in order to be able to enter

10 Croatia. However, that was not practiced at the agency.

11 Q. So there were searches.

12 A. There were searches in respect of explosive devices. No other

13 searches, though.

14 Q. And you are stating that neither you nor your employees ever seen

15 any searches which would take place at your agency?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, he can only answer for other employees if he

17 was made aware. Otherwise, I would suppose you ask him about his own

18 personal knowledge of...

19 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry, I will rephrase the question.

20 Q. Were you ever informed by any of your employees that they would be

21 present during searches of the buses?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, you also told us yesterday that you accompanied two

24 convoys. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And you stated that the reason was that you wanted to feel how it

2 is --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: If I remember correctly, that was only with regard

4 to one of the convoys.

5 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: With regard to the other, he had a very specific

7 reason that he told us about.

8 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm just trying to find...

9 Q. So you accompanied one of these convoys. Is that correct?

10 A. I've already said yesterday that I accompanied them twice. Once

11 to Vlasic and once to Gradiska. So it wasn't once; it was twice.

12 Q. I found it. It's page 43. Exactly your words: "Firstly I wanted

13 to experience in person what the ride was like, how the passengers felt on

14 the trip."

15 Mr. Bojinovic, these people were leaving Banja Luka and other

16 municipalities. They lost jobs. They lost accommodation. There was

17 terror around them. They were leaving a place which they knew, and they

18 were leaving for a place which they didn't know.

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object to this. This is a comment,

20 Your Honour --

21 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm just going to --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't agree with you, Mr. Cunningham. Let's hear

23 the question now.

24 MS. RICHTEROVA:

25 Q. They were -- they didn't know where they will end up. So --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: This is a comment.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA:

3 Q. How do you -- how do you think they might have felt?

4 A. That is what you say. What you said just now, that is your view,

5 that people did not know where they would go, that terror reigned, that

6 they had lost their jobs. That is the way you describe all of this, not

7 I. The question is how I think they felt? I would answer this question

8 to you if I were Sigmund Freud or Erich Fromm, if I were a psychiatrist or

9 a psychologist. That is the only way in which I could give a qualified

10 answer. Otherwise I cannot.

11 Q. Are you telling us that you do not agree that they were leaving

12 because they were frightened?

13 A. That is precisely the reason why they were leaving, the fact that

14 they did not feel safe. But all the other qualifications you gave are

15 your qualifications. I'm not denying it; I'm not challenging it. It is

16 certain that people were leaving for reasons of safety. That is quite

17 clear.

18 Q. But tell us why it was necessary for you to go on the bus to feel

19 how they felt?

20 A. I've already said that. It would be illogical for the agency to

21 complete its work without me seeing specifically on the spot what was

22 going on and what things looked like.

23 Q. Can we now move to a subject which you already mentioned, and it

24 is whether the people were frightened or not. Yesterday, you said on page

25 46, question: "Who was leaving?" You said: "Whoever felt that it was

1 safer for them to go." Can you describe very briefly the conditions in

2 Banja Luka. Did you learn why these people thought that it was not safe

3 for them to stay in the Banja Luka?

4 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to assume that the question deals with

5 the time period that he was chief of the agency.

6 MS. RICHTEROVA: Exactly.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I would take that for granted, Mr. Cunningham.

8 Was there conflict in Banja Luka at the time? Was there a war in

9 Banja Luka? Let's start from here.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So if there was no conflict, the conflict had not

12 arrived in Banja Luka, why on earth should someone not feel safe living

13 there? And not just one, but so many people, the majority of whom you

14 described as Muslims? What was happening?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, these people were not from

16 Banja Luka only. It's not exactly the way it was, that Muslims were

17 leaving Banja Luka en masse. We were contacted by people from Banja Luka

18 and from places where conflicts were nearby. But Banja Luka was peaceful.

19 There weren't any conflicts there. Many Muslims remained in Banja Luka,

20 and they still live there. And I see them.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But also many Muslims left from Banja Luka at the

22 time when you were chief of the agency.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So why would those Muslims who left between July and

25 December when you were chief of the agency, why would these Muslims not

1 feel safe in Banja Luka? What was happening in Banja Luka?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. It was peaceful in

3 Banja Luka.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, back to you.

5 MS. RICHTEROVA:

6 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, do you agree with the statement that there were, in

7 fact, very, very long queues in front of your agency? I will read it. I

8 will state it exactly: "The queues were very long. They were there from

9 morning until evening." Is that a correct statement?

10 A. No.

11 Q. The queues were not long?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Can you tell the Judges approximately during the time you worked

14 for the agency how many people left on convoys?

15 A. I could not say that precisely. But it can be calculated on the

16 basis of the data provided here. Every month about two or three buses

17 left, and if you take into account the fact that there are about 52 to 55

18 seats on every bus then you'll get the appropriate figure. I'm not a

19 mathematician, so I cannot tell you exactly.

20 Q. Was it more than 100? Was it more than 500? Was it more than

21 1.000?

22 A. As for this figure of 100.000 or 500.000, that is not correct.

23 Now, whether it was less than a thousand or more than a thousand, that is

24 possible. But 100.000? 50.000 --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: There may have been a mistake in the interpretation.

1 No one mentioned 100.000 or 500.000.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA:

3 Q. My question was, was it more than 100?

4 A. One hundred, or 100.000. Could you please be very specific.

5 Q. I'm as specific as possible. I'm talking was it more than 100

6 people?

7 A. Yes. Two buses account for 100 people.

8 Q. So you are telling the Judges that over these six months you

9 worked for the agency, there were only about 600 people who left?

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I object to that. That's not what he's saying.

11 That's a misstatement of his evidence.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, correct.

13 Rephrase your question, Ms. Richterova.

14 MS. RICHTEROVA:

15 Q. When you state that there were approximately 100 people per month

16 leaving, so how many -- okay, I will read it exactly.

17 "Two buses account for 100 people." And on previous occasion, he

18 said that there were two or three buses per month.

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And he also said at one time there were six buses

20 that left.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that was only once actually what he said

22 yesterday.

23 MS. RICHTEROVA:

24 Q. So can you give us, please, an approximate number of people who

25 left through your agency?

1 A. I can only use the facts that I already told you about. Apart

2 from that, I have nothing to say.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you keep records? Did the agency keep records

4 of the flow of people leaving through the agency, on the agency's buses?

5 I suppose if you sold tickets, you knew exactly how many tickets you sold?

6 MS. RICHTEROVA: I just wanted to ask this question.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You had an accountant? So I suppose at the end of

8 each month you would know exactly whether you had collected enough money

9 to cover the wage bill.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I don't think he knows that there's a question on

11 the floor, Your Honour. I think he was confused by Ms. Richterova's

12 inadvertent interruption.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let me put the question.

14 Mr. Bojinovic, a very simple question. You were in charge of this

15 agency. You told us that tickets were sold at the agency. So I suppose

16 that --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I did not say that. Tickets

18 were not sold at the agency. Citizens would pay money into the account,

19 the bank account at the post office or at the bank. I kindly ask the

20 Defence to protect me from this kind of thing and this kind of confusion.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham would be very glad to do that.

22 Did you keep accounts?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Who was paying you the fees -- the ticket fees? The

25 bank?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Money is paid into the bank account

2 of the agency, and then that money can be taken from the bank.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And you were charging 14.000 dinars per trip?

4 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And I apologise for interrupting, that's the

5 October fee.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: He said it was standard.

7 Were you charging 14.000 dinars per trip more or less throughout

8 the period you were responsible for the agency?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While I headed the agency, the price

10 of the ticket was a standard one. However, in view of the inflation of

11 the dinar vis-a-vis the mark, the figure could vary. So it wasn't 14.000

12 for each and every journey, for example, because journeys differ. Those

13 to Gradiska from those to Vlasic, for instance.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: In those months, which was the highest and which was

15 the lowest? Do you remember?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you make an average?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you can, I am not opposed to it.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, you give us an average. If it varied from

20 month to month, taking the aggregate, on an average, which would you

21 suggest? You were the chief, not I.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot give you an exact average.

23 I don't know.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Would 14.000 dinars be a fair guess?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not understand this guessing.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Guessing. Would you consider -- if I told you that

2 on an average each ticket averaged 14.000 dinars, maybe one month it was

3 higher, one month it was lower, on an average during those months, would

4 you accept it?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, yesterday and also today you were shown a

7 payroll account. I'm referring to the one in December. Perhaps someone

8 can show the witness DB277, please, once more.

9 You can give him mine if you want. 277. Just make it available.

10 In the meantime, can you dig up, please, 290.

11 That shows the payroll for December. Is it correct?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And you assure me that that does not include any

14 payments of arrears of salary not paid in the months before?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible, but I cannot give

16 you the exact truth with 100 per cent certainty. Time has gone by, and I

17 cannot remember all of that. It is possible that there were some arrears.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: If you look at DB290, which is also the payroll for

19 July, and then look again at 277, would you agree with me that there were

20 other payrolls for the intervening months, that is, August, September,

21 October, and November, which we don't have here but which would show

22 payment of salaries to you and your staff?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Every salary was calculated,

24 and it was known exactly what each and every employee's salary was.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, did you ever encounter problems during those

1 months, July to December, meeting with your salary bill? Not yours

2 personally, yours and also your staff. Did you always have the money?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: When you left the agency, had you made a profit?

5 Was the agency in the red or had it made a profit?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I believe it just broke even.

7 Perhaps there was some money left, a symbolic sum of money still left in

8 the account. However, I can't say for sure as I was not the head

9 accountant. I believe that by the time the agency ceased to operate,

10 there was very little money left in the account.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: If you add together the payroll total for December

12 and that for July, which amounts to 900-something thousand dinars, and you

13 divide it by 14.000 dinars, it only took 68, make it 69 passengers to

14 cover the entire payroll for those two months. Just 68, 69. And I'm sure

15 there were more than 69 passengers that you escorted out of Banja Luka,

16 weren't there?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What you're asking me is a very

18 complex question. I don't think I can provide an answer. Or at least not

19 an accurate answer, not a truthful answer.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Richterova, he's back to you.

21 MS. RICHTEROVA:

22 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, you mentioned yesterday that there were lists of

23 people who were supposed to board the buses, and these lists had to be

24 double-checked. Who double-checked them?

25 A. The public security station, the police.

1 Q. Where are the lists now, if you know?

2 A. I don't.

3 Q. You also had to keep books, accountants' books and other books of

4 your work. What happened to these documents after you were closed, the

5 agency was closed?

6 A. The files remained in the same offices.

7 Q. And was there anyone who was left in the office?

8 A. No, there was no one to stay. There was nothing for anyone to do.

9 Q. So do you tell the Judges you just left everything in the offices

10 and just locked the premises and nothing else happened?

11 A. If I understand the question correctly, you're asking me whether

12 our files or documents were left behind in the offices. Well, those

13 files, those documents stayed at the Security Services Centre. If the

14 agency had any files, they must have stayed there. I'm not sure what

15 became of them really.

16 Q. So what happened to this account book? Did they stay with the

17 Security Services Centre?

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I object, Your Honour. He just said he's not

19 sure what happened to them.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, perhaps you can rephrase the question,

21 Ms. Richterova.

22 MS. RICHTEROVA:

23 Q. Because it's a little bit confusing, your answer. Because you

24 said those files, those documents stayed at the Security Services Centre.

25 And it's not quite clear what files, what documents you are talking about.

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1 Which documents stayed with the Security Services Centre?

2 A. Perhaps we misunderstood each other. The Security Services Centre

3 is where persons where checked, whether the persons were suspicious or

4 not, and then the list would go back to us. I'm not sure if they kept

5 anything for themselves. But I assume they must have. The only document

6 that we had at our disposal was the list of people leaving, and this

7 stayed in the agency once the agency had ceased to operate.

8 Q. Where are the accountant books now? Do you know? What happened

9 to them?

10 A. I do. Just when the agency ceased to operate, the occupational

11 inspector officially shut down the offices. The Bandics took their things

12 away, and the rooms were left empty with papers -- with sheets of paper

13 scattered all over. None of the personnel agency were interested any

14 longer because no one could enter those rooms.

15 Q. Did these accountant books stay in the premises, just to make it

16 clear? Or did the accountant take them with him?

17 A. No. The accountant did not take those books away. I believe that

18 the offices were later redecorated because the local commune was also

19 there. So my assumption is that all the documents had been thrown away as

20 unimportant.

21 Q. When we had this very first document today, you were appointed by

22 the crisis staff. This was a government agency. Would you agree with me

23 that this was a government agency? Wouldn't it be normal --

24 To avoid an objection asking two questions, would you agree that

25 it was a government agency?

1 A. It was the agency of whoever had founded it. The answer is yes.

2 Q. So wouldn't it be normal that you would provide the records to the

3 authority who established this agency?

4 A. Yes, it would have been normal.

5 Q. And you didn't do it?

6 A. No one requested that.

7 Q. And how was it that you were closed in December? There were no

8 people wishing to leave Banja Luka?

9 A. There were. The role of the agency was taken over by the

10 Refugees' Commission. That's after the agency had ceased to operate. For

11 a while, the offices that we had used were closed. Later, this work was

12 continued by the Commission for Refugees. That was no longer my concern,

13 who worked there. I know that they pursued the same kind of activity that

14 we had before them.

15 Q. You also told us that, in fact, Banja Luka was a very peaceful

16 town, nothing was really happening. Have you ever heard any comments made

17 by Serb politicians to the effect that only five per cent [Realtime

18 transcript read in error "persons'] of non-Serbs can stay in the area?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Five persons? Five per cent. If it was translated

20 as five persons --

21 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry.

22 Q. Have you heard any comment that only 5 per cent at the most --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham.

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I just want the time period to be specified.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You have to be specific on this. During his stay in

1 Banja Luka.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA:

3 Q. During the period July/December.

4 A. I'm not sure if you're waiting for an answer. I don't think I

5 heard the end of your question.

6 Q. Okay. I will repeat my questions. Did you hear any of the Serb

7 politicians, including Radoslav Brdjanin, ever stating only 5 per cent at

8 the most of non-Serbian population can live in this area and they must

9 show their loyalty to this area? Did you hear such a comment?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you hear a comment that there are so many nasty people who

12 appeared in the area of Krajina and that we Serbs would cleanse the area

13 of this vermin?

14 A. No, I never heard anything like that from anyone.

15 Q. Did you hear during your stay in Banja Luka any negative comments

16 towards non-Serbian population?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, while you worked at the agency, did you have any

19 dealings with Predrag Radic, the mayor of Banja Luka?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You were talking about all kinds of municipal regulations which

22 you followed during your work. So are you telling us that you didn't have

23 any contact with municipal officials?

24 A. No, no contact whatsoever.

25 Q. And it must be followed, my other question, why not? You were

1 working in Banja Luka following municipal regulations. Why didn't you

2 have any contacts with Predrag Radic or other municipal authorities?

3 A. There was no need.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps you can ask the witness whether in his

5 position as head of a government agency he considered himself and his

6 agency accountable to anyone.

7 MS. RICHTEROVA:

8 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, if you heard this question by the Judge, would you

9 be so kind and answer it.

10 A. Can you please specify, substantiate. I would like to have it in

11 a clearer form.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You were the chief of a government agency. Did you

13 consider yourself accountable to, answerable to anyone? And was your

14 agency accountable, answerable to anyone?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No one ever made us accountable or

16 requested reports on our monthly work. The agency, however, was indeed

17 accountable to the government bodies.

18 MS. RICHTEROVA:

19 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, you didn't have any dealing with Predrag Radic you

20 already answered. Have you ever heard any comment stating that your

21 agency was extorting money from non-Serbs and that it was what was

22 happening? Isn't it correct?

23 A. I never heard anyone stating that the agency was extorting money

24 from people.

25 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, do you have any explanation why would a Serb

1 stating something like this, that you were extorting money from non-Serbs?

2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

4 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That calls for him to speculate on another

5 person's thought process.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyone, not just Serbs. Would anyone, particularly

7 in he or she is a Serb, would anyone would have any justification - now

8 it's no longer a speculation - have any justification in making that

9 accusation to your agency?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the question is what I understand

11 it to be, whether a Serb or anyone else ever put forward any such

12 accusations, let me tell you the following --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed. Tell me. Go ahead.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm just not sure which question to

15 answer now. I'm slightly confused. Can you please specify.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll explain to you. You have already answered the

17 big question; namely, whether you are aware anyone made an accusation

18 against your agency that -- in the sense that it was extorting money from

19 non-Serbs. And you answered no, never heard of any such accusation.

20 And my question to you is this: Would anyone have any

21 justification in making such accusation against the agency, especially if

22 that someone happens to be a Serb?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Maybe it would have

24 been with malice that someone might have said something like that.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Richterova.

1 MS. RICHTEROVA:

2 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, did you, again, during the time you were the chief

3 of this agency, did you ever speak to any international organisations?

4 A. Journalists came over from other European countries to speak to

5 me. Local journalists also came, domestic journalists, and there is a

6 document about this.

7 Q. Did you speak to any humanitarian organisations?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Be specific. I mean, you are doing a

9 cross-examination. So you can be more specific than this.

10 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour. Can we go into private session.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while. There's

12 something I must have not --

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 MS. RICHTEROVA:

23 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, do you have an explanation that there should be

24 outsiders who considered your agency as a way how to cleanse non-Serb

25 population from the area?

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object to the question because it's

3 unclear, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, I would agree with you that it is not exactly

5 the clearest of questions.

6 MS. RICHTEROVA: I will rephrase it as best I can do.

7 Q. How would you explain -- how would you think that there were

8 outsiders, there were people, who called your agency an agency who

9 participated in cleansing of the area of non-Serb population?

10 A. I never said that there were any such people. I said had there

11 been any such people, it would have been out of sheer envy or malice. I

12 never stated that there were any such people, nor that I had heard of them

13 myself.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we may have a problem of interpretation here

15 because that was never suggested to you. And I think you may not have

16 understood the question at all. So I'll try and intervene, give a hand

17 here.

18 If someone from outside described your agency as an instrument

19 adopted at the time to ethnically cleanse the area from non-Serbs, would

20 you accept that statement as a true criticism of your agency, or not?

21 Does it reflect what you wanted to ask, Madam Richterova? If not,

22 please stop me and rephrase it yourself.

23 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you for your help.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If such a criticism was leveled, a

25 criticism saying that the agency was a tool of ethnic cleansing, this

1 would indeed be a misinterpretation. Please allow me to explain. People

2 are leaving an unsafe area. Once the war was over, they came back to

3 their homes. There's no ethnic cleansing there to be spoken of.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Richterova.

5 MS. RICHTEROVA:

6 Q. I suggest to you that the only reason why this agency was

7 established was to facilitate the ethnic cleansing of Krajina from

8 non-Serbian population. Do you agree?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And you want to tell the Judges and to the Court that there was no

11 ethnic cleansing whatsoever on the territory of the Autonomous Region of

12 Krajina?

13 A. The question is too general. All I can tell you about is the role

14 of the agency. The agency had the following role: It was a humanitarian

15 role. It was there to assist, to assist whoever was in need, all the

16 people whose lives were at risk. The agency was there to assist them. We

17 helped people. Yet, some have tried to misrepresent this stating that the

18 agency and the Autonomous Region of Krajina were into ethnic cleansing

19 instead. But we must know that the differences and the discrepancy

20 between these two are huge. We were organising safe transfer for people

21 to be taken to safe places. On the one hand you had cases where people

22 from the Federation did not even have an opportunity to do so; but rather,

23 were made to leave their own areas across mountains and through

24 minefields.

25 I think there is an inversion at work here to shift the blame to

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1 the Krajina and to the agency.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Mr. Bojinovic. I do not have any

3 further questions.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. So I think we will have -- do you have

5 re-examination?

6 MR. CUNNINGHAM: No, Your Honour, the only thing I wanted to do

7 was to tender the documents I used in my examination.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, before the documents are tendered --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have a short break because we have some

10 questions.

11 MS. KORNER: Can I just raise then before the break, before the

12 documents are entered into the evidence, I would like to be told the

13 provenance of these documents, where they come from.

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: They come from documents that were supplied by

15 the OTP, I guess. They came off our database.

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: No.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, two of the documents, some of the

18 documents, but sorry, not the other documents.

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Well, as far as I know, they came off the

20 database. I have no other idea where --

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's -- I hear what Mr. Cunningham

22 says. I want chapter and verse, please, of where these documents come

23 from.

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'll take chapter and verse from the Court, not

25 from Ms. Korner. If the Court wants to know, I will tell you.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We obviously want to know. I mean that has been the

2 practice with each and every document that has been forthcoming from

3 whichever, be it the Prosecution or be it the Defence. So if you're not

4 in a position to give us that information yourself today, Mr. Ackerman not

5 being here, I can understand that. But it will need to be resolved when

6 he comes back.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, for the moment I'm objecting to the

8 admission of these documents into evidence. The ones that where --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We will deal with all this when we reconvene 25

10 minutes from now. Thank you.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just apologise. It was my fault

14 Your Honours were kept waiting. I got caught up.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We all do that. So no need to apologise. Just

16 happens.

17 I take it there is no re-examination, Mr. Cunningham?

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: No, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: There are a few questions, Mr. Bojinovic, from the

20 Bench.

21 Judge Janu from the Czech Republic is going to start. Thank you.

22 Questioned by the Court:

23 JUDGE JANU: I have just two simple questions for you.

24 Mr. Bojinovic, was it the practice -- am I right, was it the practice that

25 before the people were put on the buses, on the convoy, there was a list

1 of those people, and the list was sent for the checkup, for the

2 confirmation, to some official place - I don't know, security centre,

3 police, or municipality? Am I right in this?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE JANU: And my question is: Did you ever put anybody on the

6 bus who without the documents or without being on the list which was sent

7 to this official place?

8 A. No.

9 JUDGE JANU: Thank you.

10 A. You're welcome.

11 JUDGE JANU: Sorry?

12 A. You are welcome.

13 JUDGE JANU: And am I right that from the previous question in the

14 cross-examination that you are aware or you know the position of

15 Predrag Radic in the municipality?

16 A. I knew the position that he held, but I did not have the

17 opportunity of speaking to him because he was mayor and he was very busy.

18 JUDGE JANU: Was this position of Mr. Radic in your opinion the

19 high position?

20 A. Well, yes, it was. It was a responsible position because

21 Banja Luka is a relatively big town. And I think it's a good position,

22 too.

23 JUDGE JANU: Mr. Bojinovic, if I put to you that Mr. Radic

24 considered your agency, based on any legal ground, and operating against

25 the will of the municipality and against the public interests, what would

1 be your answer or comments?

2 A. First and foremost, Mr. Radic is a person who commands respect.

3 During the war, he was mayor of Banja Luka, and Banja Luka was a peaceful

4 town. So that is the good side of things.

5 Secondly, if he had such an opinion or made such a statement, I

6 respect anybody's statement. That is his statement. I would not exactly

7 agree with it, though.

8 JUDGE JANU: That's all. Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Taya.

10 A. You're welcome.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Taya comes from Japan. She has some questions

12 for you.

13 JUDGE TAYA: Among the employees of the agency, you were the only

14 person who was appointed by the decision of the ARK Crisis Staff?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE TAYA: The others, apart from initial employees who were

17 there already 1st July 1992, were hired by you?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE TAYA: Then, initial members, the four persons,

20 Perka Bandic, Slobodan Bandic, Stevo Gojanovic, Ljilja Miljkovic, those

21 initial members, how did they become hired?

22 A. I don't know.

23 JUDGE TAYA: You have never asked?

24 A. No.

25 JUDGE TAYA: You said the agency was a governmental organisation.

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1 What do you mean by that? You mean the agency was an organisation under

2 the ARK Crisis Staff?

3 A. Well, that's a bit of a complex matter. The agency was founded at

4 the time when the conflicts started and, well, when times were

5 complicated. It was established by the Krajina. Well, let me say to you

6 that the agency was not part of the Krajina government but it did belong

7 to its founder. So the agency is an organisation of some authorities that

8 existed then. It's not an arbitrary affair; it's not that I founded it,

9 or somebody else.

10 JUDGE TAYA: You said it was established by the Krajina. But what

11 does it mean? The ARK Crisis Staff?

12 A. I was not aware of the crisis staff. I learned about it when I

13 came to Banja Luka. I could not say anything else to you in greater

14 detail.

15 JUDGE TAYA: During when you worked as the chief of the agency,

16 you received very minimum salary which was far from maintaining living of

17 your family. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE TAYA: Then how did you make living during that time?

20 A. I had an extended family living in Glamoc. And I got food from

21 there because this is an area that is well known for its produce.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I have a very simple question for you. I'm

23 interested in knowing exactly how this agency closed its doors. Who took

24 the decision? How was it communicated to you?

25 A. A representative of the commissioner's office for refugees

1 addressed the agency, and probably the municipal authorities. The

2 municipal authorities, at any rate. And a decision was passed by the work

3 inspectorate of the town of Banja Luka to have the agency closed down.

4 And I don't know what happened next. When I say what happened, I mean the

5 employees who worked in the agency. I know that the Office of the

6 Commissioner for Refugees continued doing a similar kind of work, and then

7 the Ministry for Refugee grew out of that office. It still exists, and it

8 is attached to the Government of Republika Srpska.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Were you given a procedure to follow in closing down

10 and winding up the affairs of this agency?

11 A. No, nothing.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Bojinovic, for being kind

13 enough to come here to The Hague, to this Tribunal, to give evidence as a

14 witness called by the Defence and for having answered patiently --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too. And I just wish to

16 apologise if I was not unclear at certain points because that was not my

17 wish. It had to do with mistakes in the interpretation. So I'm sorry if

18 I was unclear at certain points. I respect this Honourable Court, which

19 is the normal thing to do.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Bojinovic. That's very nice to

21 hear. And I'm sure that you mean what you say. I, on my part, on behalf

22 of the two Judges that sit with me in this case, Judge Janu and

23 Judge Taya, but also on behalf of the Tribunal in general, I would like to

24 once more for having come over. You will now be escorted by Madam Usher

25 out of this courtroom, and you will receive all the assistance you require

1 to enable you to return home at the earliest. And our last words to you,

2 of course, is --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once again, thank you, too.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: -- we wish you a safe journey back home.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. And I wish you all the

6 best as well.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So now we have this problem on these documents that

9 you referred to. Do you want to -- do you wish to add anything,

10 Ms. Korner, or not?

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the simple thing is we've done a check

12 and we find no record that these are documents that we gave to the

13 Defence. These wage slips came from the Defence as part of Mr. Ackerman's

14 early disclosure. And we, then, used them in respect of the Witness BT,

15 whatever the number was. So I'm asking at the moment simply that we be

16 told how these documents came into possession of the Defence. That's all.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Which documents are we referring to --

18 MS. KORNER: All the DB -- all the DB documents, Your Honour. I

19 know some, I know your legal officer wants to tell us we've exhibited some

20 as Prosecution exhibits, that's right, but those are the same documents

21 that we got through disclosure; they're not our documents as far as we can

22 tell. Certainly, the wage slips which were exhibited when the witness we

23 called gave evidence come from Mr. Ackerman. They have been re-exhibited

24 as DB exhibits, and I'm asking purely and simply where these documents

25 come from.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Cunningham?

2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I can't answer that question right now.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So we've done as we have done in the past. They are

6 being admitted for the time being with the caveat that the information is

7 still required and the Trial Chamber would then be in a position to

8 confirm the continuation -- continuing presence in the records or expunge

9 them from the records.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: The Prosecutor has objected but the objection is

11 on no clear grounds to me. I don't know if it's a foundation objection,

12 or a relevancy objection, or simply we object because we don't know where

13 they come from.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You have a right to now, but again, you

15 weren't here in the early stages of the trial when we had the same problem

16 in the inverse, the problem is a question of this is one way of

17 establishing authenticity or at least the source -- the attendability of

18 the source.

19 MS. KORNER: To be absolutely clear, I'm not objecting obviously

20 on the grounds of relevance. What I'm objecting to is their admission on

21 the basis that we simply do not know from what source the documents come

22 from, and that, therefore, goes to the question of the weight that

23 Your Honours will attach to them.

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That makes it clear rather than a simple

25 objection.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. And this is something that I'm sure

2 Mr. Ackerman will be able to enlighten us upon.

3 Any further -- yes, Madam Richterova.

4 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, when I did my cross-examination, I was using

5 two documents --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you had two documents.

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: One was tendered into exhibit under P2708. And

8 the other one I forgot to tender, so I would like to do it now.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and it would be P2709.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Relying on the theory of goose versus gander, I'd

11 like to know where they came from.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You will probably find them on the list.

13 MS. RICHTEROVA: No, these documents were found only during the

14 searches. I will provide Your Honours with the source of this document.

15 And it will be P2709.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. But these seem to me to be extracts

17 from newspapers?

18 MS. RICHTEROVA: Exactly. So open-source document.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct me if I'm wrong, one is definitely a

20 newspaper for sure, which is Glas.

21 2708 is an extract from Glas, no?

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: 2708 is Serbian Democratic Party Livno Municipal

23 Board.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I see, okay. What's this? This is --

25 MS. RICHTEROVA: No, you can disregard this one. I haven't used

1 it.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is not being tendered, not being used?

3 MS. RICHTEROVA: No, it hasn't been tendered.

4 And this one, you have the B/C/S version behind.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but it says 26 January 2000.

6 MS. RICHTEROVA: At the end, exactly. It's when the article was

7 written. The title is --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: 2709.

9 MS. RICHTEROVA: "Holding our three fingers in Drvar."

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But this is a part of a newspaper or what is it?

11 MS. RICHTEROVA: It's a part of a newspaper article.

12 Unfortunately, I have to be -- find out and be more specific about which

13 newspaper it was published in.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

15 2709. That's 2708.

16 All right. Anything else?

17 We reconvene on Monday. Now, on Monday, we will have to -- we

18 will need to adjust the schedule in a way in which to transpose the break

19 that we usually have at 12.30 to 12.00 so that I attend to the swearing in

20 of a new judge, a new ad litem Judge, who will form part of Trial Chamber

21 II, so I need to be there. So we will break at 12.00, and we will

22 reconvene 25 minutes afterwards, et cetera. So the break will be at

23 12.00, not 12.30. All right? Good.

24 I don't know which courtroom we're working in.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Courtroom II.

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1 JUDGE AGIUS: Can't we change this? See if you can work in some

2 other courtroom, Chuqing. All right.

3 I thank you. Have a nice afternoon.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.18 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st day of

6 December, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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