1 Tuesday, 9 December 2003
2 [Closed session]
12 Pages 23375 to 23435 redacted, closed session
20 [Open session]
21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, my request would be if we could take the
22 break now, and I would appreciate that.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly, Mr. Cunningham.
24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I would appreciate that. I don't know who's
25 doing the cross-examination, but this should be completed within the time
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we don't know either. We're just
3 waiting to see what happens.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
5 And I do not have - and I haven't checked with Judges Janu and
6 Taya - I don't have the summary of the next two witnesses. Neither this
7 one who is coming now after the break --
8 MS. KORNER: I think Your Honour will find, like we found, that
9 Mr. Cunningham put -- although it only said one summary when it was
10 e-mailed, or --
11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I attached all three.
12 MS. KORNER: You attached all three. That's what I mean, yes.
13 The title just said summary for the first witness but all three were --
14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'll get you copies during the break. I didn't
15 give you any exhibits either because, after proofing this witness last
16 night, there were really no exhibits that I could use with her.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I just mention -- I don't know
18 whether we're in closed session or not --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: We're in open session.
20 MS. KORNER: It's all right if we're open, simply to say that the
21 indictment should be signed by the Prosecutor today. We had to wait until
22 she returned, and it will be filed, we hope, this afternoon.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, Ms. Korner. 25 minutes.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.11 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.41 p.m.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, ma'am.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome. You are about to start giving evidence
5 in this case which has been going on against Radoslav Brdjanin, and our
6 Rules require that before you do so, you make a solemn declaration to us
7 that in the course of your testimony you will be speaking the truth, the
8 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 Mr. Usher is going to hand you the text of this solemn
10 declaration. Please read it out loud, and that will be your solemn
11 undertaking with us. Go ahead.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please take a seat.
15 You have met Mr. Cunningham already. Mr. Cunningham, as Defence
16 counsel for Mr. Brdjanin, will be asking you a few questions. He will
17 then be followed by Ms. Sutherland from the Prosecution. And we hope to
18 finish with you today so that you can go back to your family and to your
20 Mr. Cunningham.
21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 WITNESS: RADOSAVA DZOMBIC
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Examined by Mr. Cunningham:
25 Q. Your name is Radosava Dzombic, correct?
1 A. Dzombic, yes.
2 Q. I knew I wouldn't get it right. Thank you for correcting me.
3 What municipality were you born in?
4 A. I was born in Bosanska Dubica.
5 Q. In which municipality do you currently live?
6 A. I live in the Municipality of Celinac.
7 Q. And how long have you lived in Celinac?
8 A. Approximately 35 years.
9 Q. You are a Serb by ethnicity. Correct?
10 A. Yes, I am.
11 Q. And are you married?
12 A. Yes, I am.
13 Q. And do you have any children?
14 A. Yes, I have two sons.
15 Q. Are you currently working?
16 A. Yes, I am.
17 Q. And where do you work at?
18 A. I work in the municipality as the secretary of the president of
19 the municipality.
20 Q. How long have you worked for the Municipality of Celinac?
21 A. I've been working close to 30 years.
22 Q. Okay. And how long have you worked as a secretary for the
24 A. Well, almost as long.
25 Q. Okay. I want to take you back to the early 1990s before the
1 multiparty elections. Before the multiparty elections, did you know an
2 individual by the name of Radoslav Brdjanin?
3 A. Yes, I knew him by sight, Radoslav Brdjanin. Radoslav Brdjanin, I
4 knew him by sight before he came to work with us. I knew he was a
5 construction engineer. I knew that he was working in a construction
6 company called 25 November.
7 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not before he started working at the
8 municipality, whether Mr. Brdjanin was considered competent as an
10 A. Yes, yes, he was quite highly regarded as an engineer.
11 Q. How is it that Mr. Brdjanin -- how is it that you became
12 Mr. Brdjanin's secretary?
13 A. I was working at that post prior to his arrival, and that is how I
14 remained there.
15 Q. What position did Mr. Brdjanin assume within the municipality?
16 A. He worked as the president of the executive board.
17 Q. And do you know in rough terms when he assumed the position as
18 President of the Executive Board of Celinac? Do you know what year that
19 would have been?
20 A. He was appointed in 1991, but I think that he came from the
21 assembly in December 1990, a few days earlier.
22 Q. What was his -- what were his duties as president of the Executive
23 Board of Celinac, briefly?
24 A. The -- through the executive board, everything was being resolved.
25 There were other members. All the problems were being resolved concerning
1 the municipality. He had also days of open, public hours where people
2 would come to resolve certain problems or other issues. So he had
3 meetings with people from the economy. So it was the executive board of
4 the assembly. And everything passes through this body, and it is here
5 that solutions are found.
6 Q. Okay. And we'll come back to some of the things that you
7 mentioned in that answer.
8 Let's go back to the time when Mr. Brdjanin first took office. At
9 that time when he took office, were there professionals with experience in
10 municipal government working there in Celinac?
11 A. Yes, yes, of course there were.
12 Q. Were these professionals members of the SDS?
13 A. No, they were not.
14 Q. Do you know whether, when Mr. Brdjanin took office, there was any
15 pressure to replace these non-SDS professionals within the municipality?
16 A. Do you mean by Mr. Brdjanin or somebody else?
17 Q. I mean pressure being placed on Mr. Brdjanin, whether there was
18 pressure on him to do something about these --
19 A. Pressure on Mr. Brdjanin, yes, probably.
20 Q. Okay. Were you a member of the SDS?
21 A. No, I was not.
22 Q. Have you ever been a member of the SDS?
23 A. No, no, I have not been.
24 Q. When Mr. Brdjanin took office, did he replace the professionals
25 within the municipal government with SDS members?
1 A. No, he did not.
2 Q. And do you know why he kept the professionals?
3 A. He kept them because they worked in a correct manner and
5 Q. And did any of the people that he kept, were any of them non-Serbs
6 or members of mixed marriages? Let's break that down, that's not a fair
8 Were any of the people that he kept working in the municipality,
9 were any of those people non-Serbs?
10 A. Yes. The head of the accountancy department, the driver, as well
11 as the registrar, the marriage registrar.
12 Q. Were any of the people he kept working for him after the
13 elections, were any of them parties to a mixed marriage?
14 A. No, these were Muslims who were married to Muslims.
15 Q. Did you work with Mr. Brdjanin on a daily basis?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And as a result of that, did you have the opportunity to see the
18 sort of work habits that he had?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How would you describe those habits for the Court?
21 A. Well, Mr. Brdjanin was a hard-working person. He also demanded of
22 others to do good work, quality work, and to do it on time. And he was
23 like that himself also.
24 Q. Okay. You told us earlier that Mr. Brdjanin, as part of his
25 duties, would see citizens that had problems. Did that happen -- how
1 often did that happen during the week?
2 A. One day in the week was set aside for open office hours for the
3 public and for all issues.
4 Q. Okay. In 1991, 1992, what was the majority people in Celinac?
5 A. The majority people were the Serbs.
6 Q. And I'm going to ask you this in a leading fashion, hoping not to
7 draw an objection, but would you agree with me that the vast majority of
8 the population in Celinac was Serbian?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, getting back to these meetings that Mr. Brdjanin had on a
11 weekly basis, who would come to him with problems? Would there be Serbs
12 and non-Serbs?
13 A. Everybody would come, whoever had a problem or needed to come.
14 Q. And would that group include the non-Serbian population of
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you have the opportunity to see Mr. Brdjanin as he conducted
18 these meetings with the non-Serbian population who came to him with their
20 A. Yes, they would pass through my office. I'd announce their
21 arrival. Sometimes I knew why they were coming; sometimes I didn't.
22 Q. And how would Mr. Brdjanin treat the non-Serbian population who
23 came to his office in 1991 and 1992?
24 A. Well, his attitude was the same to everyone regardless,
25 irrespective of who was coming.
1 Q. And how would you describe that attitude?
2 A. Well, he attempted to listen and hear what the problems of the
3 people were, and to the best of his abilities he tried to resolve them and
4 to help at the times as they were. They were all represented, and he
5 looked upon all of them in the same fashion, all of these people.
6 Q. In the time that you worked with Mr. Brdjanin, did you ever see
7 him act improperly or incorrectly with regards to the non-Serbs who came
8 to visit him in his office?
9 A. No, no.
10 Q. Did you ever hear him express -- Mr. Brdjanin ever express any
11 hatred, animosity, dislike towards the non-Serbian population?
12 A. In -- when I was present, I never heard that.
13 Q. You mentioned this earlier, that one of the Muslim employees
14 within the municipality was his driver. Do you remember that individual's
16 A. Yes; Nezirovic Hilmija.
17 Q. During the time that you were working with Mr. Brdjanin, did you
18 ever have the opportunity to observe the relationship between the driver
19 and Mr. Brdjanin?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. And what was that relation like?
22 A. Well, Mr. Nezirovic was always close by, at hand, for
23 Mr. Brdjanin, and they had quite a correct relationship and a good
25 Q. Was -- did you ever see Mr. Brdjanin act inappropriately or
1 incorrectly with respect to the driver?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. I want to take you to 1992, and did there come a time in Celinac
4 where there was some explosions and destruction of property within the
6 A. On the territory of the municipality, yes, occasionally there were
7 some such situation.
8 Q. Now, does the municipality of Kotor Varos, is that a municipality
9 that borders the municipality of Celinac?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you become aware of clashes in Kotor Varos?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you ever become aware of a Bosniak, a Muslim citizen
14 approaching Mr. Brdjanin for help with respect to those clashes in Kotor
16 A. Yes. I know that man. The name is Talic, Meho. May I continue?
17 Q. Okay. Mr. Talic was the one who approached Mr. Brdjanin. Am I
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what -- did he have a problem that he wanted Mr. Brdjanin's
21 assistance with?
22 A. He had a daughter who at the time was working in Kotor Varos. She
23 was working as a waitress. And these activities began in Kotor Varos. He
24 became afraid for his daughter, and he contacted Mr. Brdjanin, asking him
25 to go there to find that daughter, to locate that daughter of his, and to
1 see how she is doing.
2 Q. And what was Mr. Brdjanin's response to a Muslim citizen who
3 wanted his assistance with respect to his daughter? What did he do?
4 A. He asked our head for civilian defence to go there with the man.
5 He also gave them the municipal vehicle, and to go there in order to find
6 that daughter.
7 Q. Do you know whether or not that trip to Kotor Varos was a
8 dangerous trip?
9 A. Yes, it was dangerous. Our chief couldn't pass that checkpoint.
10 They only allowed Meho to pass, and our man, the municipal director,
11 remained there. He wasn't allowed to cross the checkpoint, the border
13 Q. By using Mr. Brdjanin's car with his permission, were they able to
14 retrieve Mr. Talic's daughter from Kotor Varos?
15 A. Talic was able to get in touch with the daughter. I'm not sure if
16 he brought her back, but everything was all right. He spent some time
17 with her there, and probably left her somewhere safe.
18 Q. Okay. And what was Mr. Talic's reaction to Mr. Brdjanin's
20 A. He was certainly very happy that he was given an opportunity to
21 get in touch with his daughter, to see her. And he was grateful to
22 Mr. Brdjanin.
23 Q. Did Mr. Brdjanin have any hesitation in helping this individual,
24 this Bosniak individual who needed assistance?
25 A. No.
1 Q. I'm going to ask you about another situation and see if you can
2 assist the Court in this. What is the -- is Celinac an urban
3 municipality, that is, a municipality with cities, or is it largely a
4 rural municipality with small towns?
5 A. The municipality itself is a small one. It has plenty of local
6 communes and villages around them.
7 Q. And is there some farming, some agricultural work within the
9 A. Yes. Mostly around the villages.
10 Q. Okay. In 1992, was there a concern about bringing in the harvest,
11 the spring harvest?
12 A. Yes, naturally. The conditions were as they were at the time.
13 There was a great deal of concern.
14 Q. Did Mr. Brdjanin do anything to help the Muslim farmers bring in
15 their harvest during this time period?
16 A. He secured combines which first went to the Muslim villages
17 because they're at the far end of our municipality. They started there,
18 and then made the rounds of all the other villages to help bring in the
20 Q. Was there any hesitation on his part in assisting the Muslim
21 farmers bring in their harvests in 1992?
22 A. No hesitation, no. It was necessary to bring in the harvest and
23 put it away safely as soon as possible. As I said, Mr. Brdjanin was a
24 fair man, and he treated all people fairly.
25 Q. Now, in 1992, in the spring of 1992, was there an incident in the
1 Municipality of Celinac involving threats made to the Muslim population?
2 A. There were a number of -- well, I mean, those things were done by
3 certain individuals. I don't know. I know that things did happen.
4 Q. Okay. Well, and that was a bad question on my part. You worked
5 in the municipal building. One day at work, did you become aware of a
6 large segment of the Muslim population of Celinac gathered outside the
7 municipality building?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. And do you know why those Muslims had gathered in front of
10 the municipal building?
11 A. Well, they were afraid of what started happening, and they wanted
12 to leave Celinac. Mostly those were women, children, and elderly men who
13 wanted to leave. They were afraid of shootouts across town. There was a
14 lot of random shooting. There was no intent to kill anyone in particular,
15 but there was a lot of shooting.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Everyone was scared.
18 Q. Now, do you know whether -- well, let me ask this question: Did
19 Mr. Brdjanin do anything to protect the Muslim population that had
20 gathered in front of the municipal building?
21 A. Yes. He said that those people had to be put in a building, which
22 was the elementary school in town, and that food and drinks should be
23 given for them and that they would see if they could get a vehicle for
24 them to leave town because they insisted on leaving town.
25 Q. Well, were these individuals who were placed in the elementary
1 school, these Muslims, were they protected?
2 A. Yes. Security was provided. Mr. Brdjanin got in touch with the
3 police and requested that security be provided for the night they stayed
4 there, and the day. He insisted on them being safe.
5 Q. Okay. Were these people being detained? Were they locked up, or
6 how would you describe it?
7 A. No, they were just put up there in order to avoid them standing
8 outside the municipal building.
9 Q. Why -- do you know why they -- I'm sorry. Go ahead.
10 A. Because they did not want to return home. They insisted on
11 leaving Celinac. I'm not sure where it was they wanted to go.
12 Q. Okay. And did Mr. Brdjanin to you seem to be concerned for the
13 non-Serb population?
14 A. Oh, yes. He didn't know what to do with them. The conditions
15 that were there at the time, there was no fuel. There was no one to take
16 them away by bus. This couldn't be dealt with quickly, this sort of
18 Q. Do you know whether the -- and if I've asked this, I apologise.
19 Do you know whether the Muslim population that was kept inside the school,
20 whether they were allowed to leave, to go to their homes if they needed
22 A. Yes, yes. Certainly.
23 Q. And what happened to this group of Muslims after -- Did they
24 ultimately leave the school?
25 A. A number of them certainly left. I'm not sure about the figures.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 I'm sure you understand. Once transport was provided, they did leave.
2 I'm not sure where they left for, but probably it was a destination of
3 their own choosing.
4 Q. Okay. Did any of the Muslim population stay in Celinac during
5 this period, in 1992?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And did any of those Muslims who stayed in Celinac and had been
8 put up in the school, did any of them ever come to the municipality to
9 express their gratitude to Mr. Brdjanin?
10 A. Probably, yes. Some were put up at the school, and those who
11 stayed were those who never wanted to leave, those who went to the army
12 later on and those who still lived there, those who were in touch with
13 Mr. Brdjanin.
14 Q. Do you remember Mr. Brdjanin leaving his position as president of
15 the executive board?
16 A. I do remember the time he left, yes.
17 Q. And after he left, did he attend -- do you remember him attending
18 meetings of the assembly or the Crisis Staff of Celinac Municipality?
19 A. Mr. Brdjanin and I were no longer in touch following his
20 departure. Therefore, I can't remember whether he came back or not. If
21 he did come back, this was certainly not taking place at the municipal
22 building. I never saw him again later.
23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's all I have, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Cunningham.
25 Ms. Sutherland.
1 Cross-examined by Ms. Sutherland:
2 Q. Mrs. Dzombic, when Mr. Brdjanin was dealing with the collection of
3 Muslims which were outside of the municipal assembly building, he was
4 still working with the executive board?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You mentioned earlier the Muslim harvest. Was there a shortage of
7 food and other supplies in the Celinac Municipality at that time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So the Muslim harvest would have gone to all of the population
10 within the Celinac Municipality?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Where would the harvest have gone?
13 A. Where I come from, farmers are into production, and the areas are
14 very small. Everyone produces as much as they can for themselves, for
15 their own needs, and the harvest was meant for whoever had sown it.
16 Q. You mentioned a person called Meho Talic who Mr. Brdjanin
17 assisted. Is that person called Mehmed Talic?
18 A. Yes. Perhaps Mehmed, yes. I know him as Meho. I think his name
19 is Mehmed and Meho is a nickname.
20 Q. Is he a friend of yours?
21 A. He's not a friend of mine, but he is an acquaintance.
22 Q. How long have you known him?
23 A. I've known him as a client at work or as a man I tend to meet in
24 the street.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was how long have you known him in
1 either of these two or both of these two capacities. How long? Five
2 years? Ten years? Twenty years?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've known him since I arrived
4 in Celinac. Celinac is a small town. You know almost everyone there.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND:
7 Q. Who did you report to when you worked at the municipal assembly
9 A. I don't understand the question. Who did I report to? Well,
10 Mr. Brdjanin.
11 Q. Sorry, I'll be more precise. In 1992 --
12 A. In 1992, Mr. Brdjanin. But there was the municipal secretary,
13 too, who was another person I worked with.
14 Q. What was his name?
15 A. At that time, back in 1992, I believe it was Andjelko Topic at the
16 time. But please don't take my word for it. I'm not sure I can remember
17 after all these years.
18 Q. As secretary, did you report to the head of the joint technical
19 services department?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you take the minutes at the municipal assembly meetings?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did anyone else take minutes?
24 A. Yes. Depending on the time. If I had other business to take care
25 of, there was another lady who did the same.
1 Q. Was that Maricka Vojatovic?
2 A. Yes, Maricka Vojatovic.
3 Q. Do you know where she currently resides today?
4 A. She resides in Celinac, but she also owns a flat in Banja Luka.
5 Q. You're aware that a crisis staff was set up in Celinac, are you
7 A. I am aware of it, yes.
8 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Brdjanin was a member of the crisis staff?
9 A. He may have been, but I had nothing to do with the crisis staff.
10 Q. Who took the minutes of the crisis staff meetings?
11 A. I don't know. I don't know. It may have been one of them or
12 someone else. I don't know. I can't remember.
13 Q. When you mean "one of them," you mean a member of the crisis
15 A. I am referring to members of the crisis staff. It may have been
16 one of the members.
17 Q. Mrs. Dzombic, do you understand English?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you type any documents relating to the Celinac crisis staff?
20 A. I don't remember. I don't remember.
21 Q. Where are the minutes of the municipal assembly kept?
22 A. At the municipal assembly building.
23 Q. You're still working there today?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So in exactly which room are they housed, are they archived?
1 A. Some of the documents are probably in the archive, and some are
2 still with the secretary of the president of the assembly.
3 Q. Which documents would the secretary of the municipal assembly keep
4 in his own possession?
5 A. All the materials adopted at an assembly session are deposited in
6 the archive, in the files. Or rather, some of them are deposited in the
7 files and the more recent ones are kept in the secretary's cupboard.
8 Q. So all the ones from 1992 would be housed where you said they
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Where would the minutes from the crisis staff meetings be
13 A. Probably in the archive, the archive that is inside the building.
14 Q. Have you ever been asked to obtain any minutes of the Celinac
15 Crisis Staff meetings, or retrieve?
16 A. No. I only took the minutes at meetings of the executive board,
17 and that's the only thing I kept.
18 Q. My question was have you ever been asked by any person to retrieve
19 any minutes of the Celinac Crisis Staff meetings since 1992?
20 A. No. No one ever asked me any such thing.
21 Q. There would be no reason to hide or destroy crisis staff minutes,
22 would there?
23 A. No, there wouldn't. But I have nothing to do with that. I didn't
24 take the minutes, I didn't attend the meetings. I was doing my job.
25 Q. Did you ever hear any of Mr. Brdjanin's public speeches?
1 A. No. We had no electricity, even for 40 days at a time. Sometimes
2 we had electricity for two hours only, and I didn't know whether to switch
3 on a vacuum cleaner or the water heater to have a bath. I really couldn't
4 give a toss about politics. I had my family and my children to look
5 after. I didn't read the papers. We didn't feel like following any of
7 Q. In 1991 and early 1992, did you ever hear any of Mr. Brdjanin's
8 public speeches?
9 A. I wasn't into that. I wasn't into politics then or now. I'm
10 simply not interested.
11 Q. Did you ever watch television?
12 A. Well, I did, but I told you about the power cuts that would last
13 for 40 days at a time. It is very difficult for me to sit down in front
14 of a TV and watch TV because I was just too busy for that.
15 Q. Did you have power cuts in 1991 and early 1992?
16 A. 1992, yes, there were power cuts. In 1993 early, and later on in
17 May, my mother took ill again, and I took her to Serbia for treatment. So
18 Maricka Vojatovic stood in for me throughout that period.
19 Q. Did you have power cuts in early 1992? Prior to April 1992?
20 A. How am I supposed to know? I know that there were power cuts and
21 that there were problems with electricity.
22 Q. Before the war broke out, were there power cuts in Celinac?
23 A. Yes. Even nowadays. The power lines are very old and rickety.
24 It's just that the power cuts are not as long as they used to be in those
1 Q. In 1991, did you watch television?
2 A. From time to time, from time to time. You do watch TV, don't you?
3 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Brdjanin on television?
4 A. I may have heard of sessions or something sometimes, but I didn't
5 watch anything else. If there was something I wanted to watch and if we
6 had electricity, I would always watch something that was entertaining. I
7 just wasn't into politics. I was never a member of any party or anything.
8 Even today, I still don't really watch the news because I'm not
9 interested. And this should be easy for you to verify.
10 Q. Did you ever listen to the radio?
11 A. Radio. Music, yes.
12 Q. Did you know that Mr. Brdjanin became president of the Autonomous
13 Region of Krajina Crisis Staff?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Brdjanin describing Muslims as
16 "non-Christian scum"?
17 A. No.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if I can just have one moment.
19 [Prosecution counsel confer]
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: I have no further questions.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Sutherland.
22 Is there re-examination, Mr. Cunningham?
23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: No, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Janu, do you have any questions?
25 Judge Janu from the Czech Republic would like to put a question to
2 Questioned by the Court:
3 JUDGE JANU: Madam, those Muslim people who were leaving, were
4 there any friends among them, friends of yours?
5 A. No, no. No friends of mine.
6 JUDGE JANU: You never had Muslim friends?
7 A. Only those who worked with me. Those were workmates. We would
8 socialise at work, but no special friends in addition to that.
9 JUDGE JANU: And all those miraculously stayed in Celinac
10 Municipality, those you worked with?
11 A. Well, they stayed. Mr. Nezirovic stayed until the law on
12 administrative pensions was adopted, and then he retired alongside another
13 three persons, men or women, who were Serbs. The rest of them left their
14 jobs of their own free will and went abroad. I'm telling you about the
15 people who worked in the municipality.
16 JUDGE JANU: You said that there was a lot of shooting, but there
17 was no intent to kill anybody. So how do you know there wasn't the intent
18 to kill anybody?
19 A. Because no one was killed in Celinac. Those were no military
20 operations, that wasn't a war. On the other hand, everyone had weapons,
21 if you see my point. In the evening, we would all lock our doors and shut
22 ourselves up in our homes. There would be shooting, but not a single
23 person was killed. There was no case that someone was killed, not in the
24 town itself at any rate.
25 JUDGE JANU: So your explanation for yourself is that the Muslims
1 were leaving; Serbs were not leaving. So what was your explanation, that
2 Serbs were more courageous than the Muslims, or what explanation did you
3 give yourself? You're a lady, you are married, you have children, and I
4 know you said you were not interested in politics, but this wasn't only
5 the politics; this was something very awkward was happening around you.
6 So how did you view that situation?
7 A. Madam, who am I to say where other people should go or if they
8 should stay? How on earth am I supposed to know why they wanted to leave?
9 There was a lot of fear probably because they were, after all, the
10 minority population in that town. That's the assumption, I suppose.
11 JUDGE JANU: So just the feeling that they belonged to the
12 minority made them to leave, in your opinion. Am I right?
13 A. Can I please ask you not to ask me these questions because these
14 are political questions. The Serbs also in other towns and places were a
15 minority, and they had to flee because they felt jeopardised. It was the
16 same for both Serbs and Muslims. Those were the times.
17 JUDGE JANU: Okay. I wasn't asking you any political questions; I
18 was asking you only the questions about the life and the situation in
19 which you stayed and participated as a worker of the municipality. So
20 that's all. Thank you very much.
21 A. You're welcome.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Taya, do you have any questions?
23 JUDGE TAYA: No, I have no questions.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And I don't have any questions either.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: May I ask a follow-up question from Judge Janu's
4 JUDGE AGIUS: What would that be? Would you tell us what the
5 question is first.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: In relation to killings that occurred in the
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.
9 Further cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:
10 Q. Ms. Dzombic, were you aware of the killings that occurred in the
11 Celinac Municipality which were committed by the members of the Zigic
12 [phoen] family on the 31st of July and the 1st of August in particular?
13 A. Sugic is the name. That's at the far end of our municipality, the
14 villages you're talking about where this happened. It was far away from
15 where I lived, but yes, I did hear about it.
16 Q. Did you hear that it was Muslims that were killed by Serbs?
17 A. I did, yes.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
20 So Mrs. Dzombic, that brings us to the end of your testimony. On
21 behalf of the Tribunal, I should like to thank you for having come over to
22 The Hague and to this Tribunal to give evidence in this trial against
23 Radoslav Brdjanin. You will be escorted out of the courtroom by
24 Mr. Usher, and you will be attended to to facilitate your return back
25 home. On behalf of everyone present here, I wish you a safe journey back
2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And she can leave the exhibits, and I'll pick it
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 Leave that. Thank you.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose that's all for today, Mr. Cunningham. The
9 next witness is not present.
10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Is not present and not ready yet, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I invite Your Honour and, through
13 Mr. Cunningham, Mr. Ackerman to perhaps tomorrow, if there's time, which I
14 anticipate there will be, we're obviously not going to be sitting Thursday
15 now --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know.
17 MS. KORNER: There's only one more witness and it's a relatively
18 short witness, I believe. To perhaps, if Mr. Ackerman can attend so we
19 can discuss, please, in advance which witnesses are coming now in January
20 and February and proper summaries --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
22 MS. KORNER: -- in advance. We still haven't got a summary for
23 Monday's witness, which is a major witness, other than the four-line
24 saying we interviewed him and that will do.
25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That has been my task to get that done, but
1 because I've done a good part of the last witnesses, I haven't done that
2 yet. But this is also a witness that they have interviewed for several
3 hours in Banja Luka. So it's not a total surprise. But I understand what
4 our obligation is, and I will get that to you today. Mr. Ackerman will be
5 here in the morning.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And based on the representations made by the
8 Prosecutor last week that they thought this next witness -- we had
9 allocated one day for him, and the Prosecution said it would probably be
10 more than that, so based on that representation we factored that into our
11 scheduling of witnesses.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And do I take it that Witness Number 8,
13 who would be the next witness after the next, will be coming on Monday?
14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: He will, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I was going to ask that as well, because
17 as Your Honour will recall, I said I wanted a definite confirmation that
18 the witness was coming who we'd interviewed, in which case once we've got
19 that confirmation -- that is a definite, isn't it? We're not suddenly
20 going to be told he's not coming.
21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: When I checked last night, he's still coming.
22 Mr. Ackerman and I will be here in the morning and we'll confirm it as
23 best we can.
24 MS. KORNER: All right. But, Your Honour, I think for the reasons
25 I keep on explaining, Your Honour, we would like to know now which of the
1 remaining 35-odd witnesses is actually going to testify in the
2 intervening --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
4 MS. KORNER: -- 12th of January and 12th of February.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll deal with that tomorrow morning.
6 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Just let me give the Chamber an idea of where we
7 are at as a Defence. We are going to spend our first day where we don't
8 have Court, sitting down with our witness list, going through, knowing
9 exactly who is going to come. Our witness list is solid through the
10 Christmas break, and it would be our guess -- my guess that we would have
11 our final list ready probably by Friday afternoon. We are going to try to
12 sit down and do it on Thursday when --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thursday it seems we will not be sitting, from what
14 I gather. And Friday, of course not, because we have got Plenary in the
15 morning as well. So we will take it up from there tomorrow morning at
16 9.00. Thank you.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.34 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day of
19 December, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.