1 Monday, 15 December 2003
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the Case Number IT-99-36-T, The Prosecutor versus
9 Radoslav Brdjanin.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am.
11 Mr. Brdjanin, can you follow the proceedings in a language that
12 you can understand?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Good morning to you.
16 Appearances, Prosecution.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Good morning, Your Honours. Julian Nicholls with
18 Joanna Korner and Skye Winner.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
20 Appearances, Radoslav Brdjanin.
21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: David Cunningham with John Ackerman and
22 Aleksandar Vujic. Good morning, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, too.
24 Any preliminaries?
25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Just a very brief one, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah.
2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: In light of the fact that we're moving through
3 our case and in light of the fact that the Defence would like to get an
4 idea of how much time we're going to have to do our final brief, we would
5 like to suggest to the Court to perhaps have a scheduling conference so we
6 can get an idea of -- of what the Chambers' intentions are with respect to
7 the intervals between the close of evidence and the submission of briefs
8 and then arguments. That will help us plan our Christmas holidays.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we had discussed that some time back. I'm
10 not quite sure that I have the document here with me. I have, but it's
11 not completely updated. But I have got some notes on it. This is the
12 last one.
13 Combined with it, and I'm saying this to give you some advance --
14 not warning, but some advance notice, it's still our intention to try and
15 have -- to visit the area, an on-site. And I have discussed it already
16 with the Registrar, and I have an indication that it should be possible.
17 What I would like from your part in order to start planning and also to
18 submit the requests in writing as I suggested it should be done -- I mean,
19 the intention was to submit it in writing today. But I haven't had time
20 to discuss with my two colleagues, and also I would like to have feedback
21 from both of you. If there are sites that you are particularly -- you as
22 Prosecution, you as Defence, that you are particularly -- not just
23 interested, but that you consider them to be a must that should be seen,
24 so that we will take that in all due consideration. If you can come
25 back -- yes, Ms. Korner.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, in some measures -- I mean, I'm going to
2 support what Mr. Cunningham said. I think it is quite useful before we
3 break for Christmas to have a look at the overall schedule. With regards
4 to a site visit, Your Honour, that may need discussion, (a), between the
5 Defence and ourselves; and (b), I'm not at the moment quite clear
6 whether -- is it Your Honours' intention to go off your own, as it were,
7 or is it meant to be, as Your Honour will be familiar with, a jury
8 visit --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly that's what I had in mind, Ms. Korner.
10 MS. KORNER: In which case counsel for both sides would be
12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I had in mind.
13 MS. KORNER: Right.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: If it doesn't go down well with either of you,
15 please let us know. But that's what I had in mind.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that seems eminently right to me and
17 then we can discuss the procedures --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.
19 MS. KORNER: -- that could be followed at a later stage. I would
20 certainly encourage Your Honours as I have all along --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly, and I have discussed it with the
22 Registrar, and it should be -- obviously we have to discuss logistics and
23 other matters, as you can imagine.
24 MS. KORNER: Yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: But I would like to have a feedback from both of you
1 as to particular places that you consider useful that this Tribunal --
2 this Trial Chamber should visit. Then obviously we will use our own
3 judgement to decide where to go. But we will do it the way I am used to
4 do it in a trial, so there would be everyone present, accused is to be
5 excluded obviously for obviously reasons in this particular case. But
6 we'll have it with both sides, both sides being present.
7 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I think it would be helpful, then,
8 if we were to, perhaps -- Your Honours have to put in a request with the
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We discussed it with the Registrar, and the best way
11 to go about it is to submit it in writing.
12 MS. KORNER: Yes.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Because obviously it has to be processed. Other
14 requests have to be made by the Registrar to other departments in the
15 Tribunal, and the money should be there. So it's not a problem of
16 finding --
17 MS. KORNER: Judging by our experience, Your Honour, the
18 Republika Srpska liaison officer requires six weeks' notice of anything.
19 But Your Honour, would it help if perhaps Mr. Ackerman and I were to meet
20 after the sitting and discuss it.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I am mentioning this. Because,
22 obviously it will -- it's not my intention, and this we have discussed,
23 Judge Janu and Judge Taya already, it's not my intention to have this
24 before the end of your case obviously. And anyway, it should not be held
25 in a way which would obstruct, or which would -- you know, I mean, defeat
1 the whole plan that we have to economise on time as much as we could. So
2 what I would like you to do is to have a short discussion amongst
3 yourselves first, and then keep in mind the following: That I'm assuming
4 that the -- at the worst scenario is that the Defence will finish its case
5 on the 13th of February. That's what I'm assuming.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: That's probably fairly close, Your Honour. We've
7 worked on the witness list since we were last here. We've cut it down
8 some more even. I think that's probably realistic number at this point.
9 Even if we were to -- the only reason -- let me say this: The expert,
10 Professor Shoup, because of his late entrance on to the scene would not
11 have his report ready and be prepared to testify before the 9th, I think,
12 of February is when we've scheduled him. Even if we finish other
13 evidence prior to that time, we are going to have to wait for
14 Professor Shoup. But I don't see that being more than three or four days
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Then the idea was to have one week after the close
17 of the Defence case, an entire week, for both of you to prepare yourselves
18 for the rebuttal and the rejoinder. Then it had been planned that one
19 week would be taken by the Prosecution for presenting their rebuttal, and
20 one week by the Defence for your rejoinder, Mr. Ackerman.
21 And then the idea was to have four weeks for the preparation of
22 the closing statements with the Prosecution brief due 30th March and
23 Defence brief due April 1st. This may not be... No, no, no, it is
24 correct, yeah. And then the closing arguments we had dedicated or we had
25 planned to dedicate an entire week for closing arguments, Prosecution and
1 Defence together in one week, 5th to 9th April.
2 So keeping that in mind, keeping that in mind, we need to try and
3 fit in an on-site visit. So...
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, at the moment, I mean obviously things
5 can change over the --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: It's taken for granted.
7 MS. KORNER: I doubt very much that we'll require a week for
8 rebuttal evidence, if at all. It may be just be documents. Equally, I'd
9 very much doubt, given we're putting in written closing briefs that the
10 final address would probably, although I'm always wrong in this, take just
11 over one day. Possibly going into a second, but that's it.
12 Your Honour, can I just ask, though: Again I think Mr. Ackerman
13 or Mr. Cunningham told us last week that we would have the new list, the
14 full list now of witnesses by Friday.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I was coming to that.
16 MS. KORNER: I don't think we got it. And the summaries we would
17 like as well, please.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: You were supposed to be working on this Thursday.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: That was my understanding. My discussion with
21 Ms. Korner was that I would have the list completed before we go on break,
22 and that's still my intention. We're not finished with it yet. We're
23 working on it. And we've got some communication going on with Banja Luka
24 and we're not yet to give a final list, but we're close. And we'll
25 certainly have it before the break starts. In fact, hopefully if we can
1 have some kind of Status Conference later on this week, we will have it
2 prepared by that time. Maybe Wednesday or something like that.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. Wednesday we are sitting in the
4 afternoon. So we could have a Status Conference in the morning if it's --
5 late in the morning, if that's fine with you.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, that makes sense.
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, just on that note, and this is purely
8 personal, it's medical. I have a great deal of difficulty arranging an
9 appointment. It's at lunchtime on Wednesday.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That shouldn't be a problem, Ms. Korner.
11 MS. KORNER: I understand that it may be that this witness will
12 not take the full three days.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I read his statement, the statement that he gave to
14 you. I don't see why we should be here three days, to tell you the truth.
15 MS. KORNER: So we could, perhaps, if we finish early afternoon on
16 Wednesday, then have a Status Conference.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's agree first that there will be a
18 Status Conference between now and end of business on Wednesday, or even it
19 could also be Thursday, for all that matters. We are available, the three
20 of us. We don't have any other commitments, except this case this week.
21 So let's play it by the ear and as soon as there is time available for
22 the -- to hold a Status Conference, we'll hold a Status Conference.
23 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, can I confirm, we're sitting
24 tomorrow afternoon as well, it's tomorrow and Wednesday.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, tomorrow and Wednesday afternoon. If -- unless
1 we can shift it to the morning but I think it's very difficult.
2 MS. KORNER: I understand there are cases.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's very difficult because I tried,
4 Madam Chuqing tried, and even someone else tried.
5 MS. KORNER: Thursday and Friday we are likely to be the only
6 trial sitting there, I imagine.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Just Your Honour, something I would ask
9 Your Honours to consider. You mentioned the Prosecution brief would be
10 due 30 March and the Defence brief 1 April, that gives like us one day to
11 read their brief and reply to it.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: The plan we had before was two days, but we are
13 flexible on that, Mr. Ackerman. It's not going to make a difference to
14 us, I suppose, if we shift it from the 1st to the 2nd or to the 3rd. So
15 don't -- let's leave that to the Status Conference that we will hold, but
16 don't let it ruin your sleep or your digestion, Mr. Ackerman, because we
17 will find a solution for sure.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: I think you learned that from me. I kept telling
19 you "Don't worry about it, Judge." Now you're telling me not to worry.
20 Don't worry, be happy.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, can we bring in the witness.
22 Yes, let's go into private session for a while, just for two
24 [The witness entered court]
25 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: There are no protective measures here, no?
22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: No, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: And is this your witness, Mr. Cunningham?
24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: It is, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
1 Good morning, Mr. Sajic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You are about to
4 start giving evidence in the -- in this ongoing trial against Radoslav
5 Brdjanin. You have been summoned here as a Defence witness, and our Rules
6 require that before you start giving evidence you make a solemn
7 declaration that in the course of your testimony you will be speaking the
8 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. This is basically
9 equivalent to an oath that you would take in your own jurisdiction. The
10 text of the solemn declaration is going to be handed to you now by
11 Madam Usher. Could you please stand up, read that text, that solemn
12 declaration aloud, and that will be your undertaking with this Tribunal
13 that you will testifying the truth.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Sajic.
17 You're going to be examined first through a series of questions by
18 Mr. Cunningham, who is appearing for Mr. Brdjanin. Mr. Cunningham will
19 then be followed by Mr. Nicholls, by Mr. Nicholls, for the Prosecution.
20 My suggestion to you is that you try to be as concise as possible in your
21 answers, and to the point. You have a duty to answer truthfully and
22 fully, but also to the point. So don't try to volunteer information that
23 is not being asked from you. Otherwise, you'll be here the entire week.
24 Did I make myself understood?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham, he's all yours.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, Your Honour, just before we start, could we
3 again move the ELMO just a little bit because I can't see the witness
5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And it doesn't look like the right-hand
6 microphone is on, at least from my angle.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, both of you.
8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.
10 WITNESS: MILORAD SAJIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examined by Mr. Cunningham:
13 Q. Your name is Milorad Sajic. Correct, sir?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Yesterday when we met in your hotel room, I left you with a binder
16 full of exhibits that we will use today. Did you bring that exhibit book,
17 that binder, with you, sir?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Please go ahead and get it out and have it at the ready in case
20 you need it.
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I -- I'm sorry to interrupt, but
22 this is the second time Mr. Cunningham has said this. Can I just make a
23 point out of absolute caution: If witnesses are being given binders of
24 documents to take with them wherever they're staying, are we sure that
25 they're not taking with them confidential, under seal documents?
1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: The documents that are in there are the exhibits
2 that are being proposed to be used today.
3 MS. KORNER: I understand that. My concern is taking them to a
4 hotel, possibly leaving them somewhere.
5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: All of the exhibits today are public documents,
6 and I have been cautioned with respect to -- and can we go into private
7 session for just a minute.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.
9 [Private session]
12 Pages 23555 to 23575 redacted, private session
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Usher, could you bring the witness in,
10 Mr. Sajic, my apologies to you. It was not our intention to bring
11 you here and let you stay in a room waiting for us to discuss certain
12 matters, certain issues that we had to deal with before we could proceed
13 with your testimony. It would have been easier for me if these problems
14 involved you, but they do not really involve you, so you don't have to
15 worry about it. Let's proceed now, but I wanted you to know how sorry I
16 am that you had to stay in there waiting for almost two hours now, almost
17 two hours. But we couldn't avoid this. So I'm sorry.
18 Mr. Cunningham is going to question you on the events that took
19 place in Banja Luka in 1992 and other events. And he will then be
20 followed by Ms. Korner, as I explained to you earlier. Yes, Mr.
22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Sorry, Your Honour. Thank you, Your Honours.
23 Q. Mr. Sajic, we got so far as confirming what your name was. Let me
24 ask you, what municipality were you born in?
25 A. Srbac Municipality.
1 Q. And in which municipality do you currently reside?
2 A. Banja Luka.
3 Q. Are you married?
4 A. Yes, I am.
5 Q. And do you have any children?
6 A. Two.
7 Q. Where did you attend secondary school at? Which municipality or
9 A. Part in Banja Luka and part in Srbac. That's where I completed my
10 secondary education.
11 Q. After completing your secondary education, did you go to
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where did you attend university at?
15 A. School for economics in Banja Luka, and political sciences in
17 Q. Do you have more than -- do you have a university diploma, a
18 university degree?
19 A. Yes, I have a BA in economy, and my other occupation is a teacher
20 of national defence.
21 Q. And when you say a teacher of national defence, what does that
23 A. This is a special department at the political sciences faculty,
24 defence and protection. Once you finish that school, you obtain a diploma
25 to certify that you are a professor of defence and protection.
1 Q. Okay. Have you ever been a member of the SDS?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Have you ever been a member of any political parties?
4 A. Until 1990, I had been a member of the League of Communists. I
5 was never a member of any other party later.
6 Q. Okay. Did you do compulsory military service as a younger man?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And when did you complete your military service?
9 A. 1968 and 1969. It lasts for a year. It was half/half.
10 Q. After completion of your compulsory military service in 1969, did
11 you remain in the military or did you enter civilian life?
12 A. I was back in civilian life.
13 Q. Tell us very briefly your employment, what sort of jobs you've
14 worked at, say, from leaving the service in 1969 up until 1990.
15 A. I worked in Laktasi for the Territorial Defence staff until 1979,
16 or 1978, after which I worked in Banja Luka for a year or so with the
17 district staff and then later with the municipal Territorial Defence
18 staff, from 1981. In Banja Luka, that is.
19 Q. Did you work continuously for the TO in either one municipality or
20 another from 1969 or 1970 up until 1990?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. At some point in 1992, were you commander of the Banja Luka TO,
23 the municipality TO?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you also the secretary to the regional secretariat for
1 national defence during the spring and summer of 1992?
2 A. That's correct, for several months.
3 Q. And were you also a member of the ARK Crisis Staff?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. At some point in 1992, were you -- did you become an officer in
6 the VRS?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And when did you leave military service?
9 A. In 1996, after I had been demobilised.
10 Q. And after your demobilisation in 1996, did you start working in
11 the civilian sector again?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And what's your current position?
14 A. At the Palace Hotel.
15 Q. And what is your position at the Palace Hotel?
16 A. I'm the manager of the hotel.
17 Q. Okay. I'm going -- you told us you were the commander of the
18 Banja Luka Territorial Defence. Tell us again when you came to Banja Luka
19 to start working with the Territorial Defence.
20 A. I joined the municipal staff in 1981, and the district staff prior
21 to that, in 1979.
22 Q. During the 1980s, were you promoted, rise up the chain, if you
23 will, in the Banja Luka TO?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What sort of promotions did you receive in the 1980s while working
1 at the Banja Luka TO?
2 A. I was the chief of the operations organ, the assistant for
3 logistics, and after that the commander of the TO.
4 Q. When were you appointed to be the commander of the Banja Luka TO?
5 A. I was appointed in March 1991.
6 Q. And how is it that you were appointed? What was the procedure
7 that led to your appointment?
8 A. At the time, the rules said that the municipal assembly should
9 appoint the TO commanders pursuant to proposals by the president of the
10 assembly, and an opinion of the commander of the republican staff of the
11 Territorial Defence would be needed to make the appointment. I was
12 proposed by the president of the assembly and nominated and appointed by
13 the assembly itself at one of its sessions.
14 Q. Was your appointment approved by the republican staff of the TO?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did your appointment follow the procedure that was set forth in
17 the law of Yugoslavia existing at that time?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I want to talk about the responsibilities that -- of the TO.
20 Under the -- according to the law of national defence in the former
21 Yugoslavia, was the republican -- let me rephrase the question. According
22 to the law of national defence in the former Yugoslavia, were the
23 republican authorities responsible for providing certain things, items, to
24 the TO?
25 A. The law on the armed forces of the former Yugoslavia, there were
1 two components to that. One was the JNA as the unified armed force of the
2 entire state of Yugoslavia, and the other component was the TO. That was
3 organised across the republics and even provinces, I believe. The
4 republics had the duty to help with organising training, preparing and
5 assisting their own republican TO within the framework of the duties they
7 Q. Were the municipalities responsible for anything with respect to
8 the TO; that is, did they have duties and obligations with respect to the
10 A. The municipalities were a bit like the republics, but at a lower
11 level. They had the duty to organise, to recruit, to train, to finance as
12 far as their municipality was concerned.
13 Q. Now, you were the commander of the TO simply for the Municipality
14 of Banja Luka. Correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is there a Banja Luka region of the TO? I guess I should say, was
17 there in 1991 when you assumed the position a region that you were part
19 A. Yes. Before and after, there were regional staffs, or rather
20 district staffs of the TO for certain areas in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
21 You had the Banja Luka staff for the Banja Luka area.
22 Q. Okay. Who was the commander for the region when you assumed your
23 position in 1991?
24 A. It was Colonel Milan Krneta.
25 Q. Was he ultimately replaced in -- sometime in 1991 or in 1992?
1 A. I believe it was in the summer of 1991 that he retired and was
2 replaced by Lieutenant Colonel Petar Spasojevic.
3 Q. Was that -- these two individuals your immediate supervisors?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who would be over the regional commander? Who would be the next
6 up the chain of command?
7 A. There was the republican staff of the Territorial Defence. These
8 were practically sections or branch offices, subordinate offices, of the
9 republican staff which was in charge of the entire republic of Bosnia and
10 Herzegovina. At that time, the commander was General Drago Vukosavljevic.
11 Q. And going again up the chain of command after this last general
12 you cited, who would be next in the chain of command?
13 A. For the use of units in combat, it would have been the general
14 staff of the armed forces. I think the man in charge would have been
15 General Kadijevic at the time, for the use of those units.
16 Q. Okay. And above him would have been who?
17 A. The presidency, the Presidency of Yugoslavia.
18 Q. You told us that you were appointed with the municipal assembly --
19 appointed by the municipal assembly. Did you know Predrag Radic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. By virtue of your position as commander of the TO in the
22 municipality, did you have a professional working relationship with
23 Mr. Radic?
24 A. My people and myself, the people that answered to me, were
25 employed and financed by the Municipality of Banja Luka, as was the case
1 with all other municipal organs. So this work relationship went towards
2 the president of the assembly and the president of the executive board.
3 Some organs answered directly to the president of the assembly, and some
4 to the presidents of the executive board. And Mr. Radic was the president
5 of the assembly at the time.
6 Q. Did you answer to Mr. Radic or the president of the executive
7 council on issues?
8 A. As a rule, to President Radic because he was also the president of
9 the defence council at the municipal level. As far as the finances were
10 concerned, the whole thing went through the executive council. These
11 functions intertwined slightly, but that was that.
12 Q. When you say "these functions intertwined," which functions are
13 you talking about?
14 A. Well, you see, the financing of all the different bodies, the
15 executive council of the municipality was in charge, and they made budget
16 proposals for the municipality. All the requests for equipment, for
17 salaries, for any materiel equipment, this all went through the executive
18 council, and the executive council would have been in charge of that.
19 As for preparation, training, mobilisation, different courses,
20 training courses and seminars, as well as the equipment, this would always
21 be discussed at the Defence council and the president of this counsel,
22 rather, the chairman, was the president of the municipality. This was a
23 peculiar situation because everybody answered to -- all the different
24 bodies answered to the president of the executive council.
25 Q. You bring up a good point. You said you answered to the president
1 of the executive council. Did the president of the executive council have
2 the competence to issue a binding order to you, commander of the TO?
3 A. In addition to trying to keep me within the budget, nothing else.
4 Q. Okay. Was the link between you and the municipality financial, or
5 was it more than that? And just so you understand what I'm saying, by
6 "financial," I mean the fact that they paid and your staff salary and
7 pensions and insurance and things like that, did it go beyond that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You talked about the president of the executive council not having
10 the competence to issue an order to you. What about the president of the
11 municipality? Did he have the competence to issue an order to you in
12 1991, 1992 that you would be obligated to follow?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Were you as commander of the TO obliged to follow the conclusions
15 and decisions of municipal authorities?
16 A. These almost never applied to the Territorial Defence.
17 Q. And why was that?
18 A. They didn't apply to the use of units which was the most important
19 thing. If you had to save money, then everyone had to save money,
20 financially speaking.
21 Q. I think you mentioned it earlier in your testimony that you
22 were -- you mentioned the notion, the topic of municipal defence councils.
23 What is a municipal defence council?
24 A. The National Defence Council for the municipality was an advisory
25 body, an advisory body, reviewing issues related to organisation and
1 preparation as well as the achievements in the area of the Territorial
2 Defence, the National Defence, the secretariat for National Territorial
3 Defence, civilian protection, police, and the like. But only as an
4 advisory body.
5 Q. And was this according to the law of the former Yugoslavia? Did
6 the law of the former Yugoslavia provide for this?
7 A. Yes. The law of the former Yugoslavia and of the Socialist
8 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina did provide for this. This council
9 would be appointed by the municipality, and the law provided for the
10 various positions that would be part of the council, positions that the
11 council was made up of. Those were not deputies, the people appointed.
12 These positions were legally prescribed, and then some of -- some more
13 appointments would additionally be made.
14 Q. And by virtue of your appointment to commander of the TO in
15 Banja Luka in 1991, did you also become a member of this National Defence
16 Council for the municipality?
17 A. Yes. The commander of the TO under the law would have been a
18 member. The president of the assembly would have the president. And the
19 secretary of the secretariat for National Defence would have the secretary
20 to this council. And there are a number of other positions, but in answer
21 to your question, yes, I was.
22 Q. Serving on this National Defence Council in Banja Luka with you,
23 were there any members of the active military?
24 A. As far as the composition of the council was concerned, the law
25 provided for a representative of the JNA, which meant one of the commands
1 of the JNA. Not all the municipalities had a JNA presence, so usually
2 those would be representatives from the highest command. And this was the
3 case in Banja Luka also.
4 Q. And who from the army or from the highest command was on the
5 National Defence Council with you in Banja Luka in 1991 and 1992?
6 A. In 1991, Uzelac, while he was the corps commander; and in 1992,
7 General Talic.
8 Q. Speaking of General Talic, in 19 -- at the time he was the corps
9 commander, did he attend these National Defence Council meetings in
10 person, or did he send a representative? What can you tell us about that?
11 A. As a rule, both commanders attended meetings whenever they could.
12 Sometimes, though, they would send their representatives or an authorised
13 officer, so there were times when he was not personally in attendance.
14 Q. In 1991, 1992, how often were these advisory board, National
15 Defence Councils meetings?
16 A. Not too often really. Not very often.
17 Q. And I appreciate the answer, but that doesn't really tell us much.
18 Did they meet once a month, once a year, once a decade? Give us an idea,
19 please, how often the meetings were.
20 A. Whenever the need arose, but I reckon it would have been two or
21 three times a year.
22 Q. Okay. And who determined when the need arose? Who made the
23 decision to call a meeting of these National Defence Councils?
24 A. The secretary for National Defence, the secretary of the
25 secretariat for National Defence, who was also the secretary of the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Council for National Defence. He would prepare the material for the
2 sessions, and when there were issues to be reviewed, for example, reports
3 on recruitment, reports on mobilisation, reports on civilian protection,
4 he would make proposals to the president of the council, the president of
5 the municipality, to convene a session. The necessary materials would
6 then be forwarded, and that's how it was done. They raised issues that
7 the council then reviewed, according to a regular procedure. Throughout
8 the year, two or three times, the law did provide for this, and that's how
9 it was done. Reports on the work of the secretariat and so on and so
11 Q. I forgot to ask this question of you earlier, and I'm sorry for
12 that. You told us that there were members of the army on the council.
13 Was -- were people from the security structures, from the police, also on
14 the council?
15 A. Civilian police?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And was the civilian police's presence on the National Defence
19 Council by virtue of the law -- by virtue of the law which designated who
20 would serve on the National Defence Council?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, at these meetings that you attended, were you - and I'm
23 speaking of you as the commander of the TO - were you ever ordered by the
24 municipal authorities to undertake or do a specific act?
25 A. You mean the council, the council provided guidelines and
1 instructions as concerned the Territorial Defence, and these instructions
2 and guidelines would then be considered.
3 Q. I guess what I'm getting at is at any of these meetings, these
4 National Defence Council meetings that you attended, did any municipal
5 authority order you, direct you, command you to undertake a specific act?
6 Did that ever happen?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did the municipal authorities have the competence to enter such an
10 A. No.
11 Q. Likewise, with respect to the -- what I'll call the active-duty
12 military and the police, did the municipal authorities ever, during these
13 meetings, ever issue a direct order to those entities requiring them to
14 undertake a certain or specific act?
15 A. There could have been guidelines, but the municipal authorities
16 did not have the power to issue any orders.
17 Q. During the time that you were commander of the municipality TO,
18 did it undergo some very serious restructuring and reorganisation?
19 A. In 1992, there was the restructuring of TO units in the infantry
20 brigade. Up to then, up to 1992, everything had been the same.
21 Q. Okay. And --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham, could I ask you --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Could I ask you to stop here for two or three
25 minutes. I need to leave the courtroom. And I will be back in two or
1 three minutes. Thank you.
2 [The Presiding Judge exits court]
3 [The Presiding Judge entered court]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Cunningham.
5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. You told us that everything remained the same until 1992. Did
7 something happen in the spring of 1992 that prompted this reorganisation?
8 A. In the spring, the Army of Republika Srpska was set up, and the TO
9 became part of it. That was what the restructuring of the TO was about,
10 towards the establishment of that army.
11 Q. Do you remember the date that the VRS was formally established?
12 A. I believe on the 12th of May 1992.
13 Q. And as commander of the TO involved in this reorganisation, did
14 the efforts at reorganisation begin before or after 12 May 1992?
15 A. After.
16 Q. And what were the changes that were undertaken with respect to the
18 A. TO, as it was, became four light infantry brigades that were then
19 set up and placed under the command of the corps, or rather the brigade
20 development unit.
21 Q. Okay. With respect to Banja Luka, how many light -- I think
22 you've already answered that. Was this something that was done overnight,
23 or did this take work to form these four light infantry brigades?
24 A. Each attempt at reorganisation of the units needs time. This was
25 about making units bigger, transforming them from the platoon squads and
1 companies that they were into brigades, and this required time. This took
2 some time.
3 Q. And why is it that it took time to do that?
4 A. It took time to make these units into bigger units, to set up
5 brigade commands, to make the platoons and squads part of the companies,
6 and then to reorganise, restructure the whole thing and set it up.
7 Q. Did this take place, this reorganisation that you've just
8 described, did that start in earnest on or about the date that the VRS was
9 officially proclaimed?
10 A. Not on the same date. It never quite happens at the same time as
11 anything else. There was an order several days later pursuant to which
12 this started, and I think this was completed by the 15th or 16th of June.
13 Q. Okay. How much time -- how many hours per day would you think
14 that you spent in handling or helping out on this reorganisation? Between
15 the time it started and June 15th 1992.
16 A. [No Interpretation]
17 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm sorry, I'm not getting a translation.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Can the interpreters repeat the interpretation,
19 please, so that we can check whether Mr. Cunningham -- whether this is a
20 fault specific to Mr. Cunningham only?
21 THE INTERPRETER: The usual working hours, was what was said.
22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm back online, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Thank you, interpreters, and thank you,
24 Mr. Cunningham.
25 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
1 Q. And the normal working hours for you in May and June of 1992 were
2 what, sir?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Let me repeat my question because I don't think it made it to you.
5 You said you spent your normal working hours involved in this
6 reorganisation. What were your normal working hours back in May and June
7 of 1992?
8 A. Normal working hours, well, to work eight hours or perhaps ten
9 hours a day, but this implied that the units that were across the
10 territory of the municipality, that these units were to be grouped in
11 larger units. And from the units, that companies should be formed and --
12 both in terms of organisation, that they should be finalised and form
13 companies that, of course, had to be then various -- the staff had to be
14 found, and this was the procedure of work, not only my procedure of work,
15 but of all the other commanders.
16 Q. Okay. And how big a staff did you have to assist you in this
17 reorganisation effort?
18 A. Well, my staff was -- included about 14, 15 people, and as such it
19 was engaged on such duties. It had certain departments which were in
20 charge of such affairs, organisation, the operational unit and other
21 units. And this was all part of the reorganisation process.
22 Q. And you told us you had a staff of 14 to 15 people. What was the
23 ethnicity -- ethnicities of those 14 to 15 people that worked for you in
24 May and April of 19 -- excuse me, in May and June 1992 when this
25 reorganisation was being done?
1 A. Well, the composition, ethnic composition, was multinational.
2 Well, it wasn't the same percentage situation as in 1991. There were
3 certain elements wanting to remain and stay there and work there, and
4 other ethnicities other than the Serb also remained.
5 Q. Okay. But to get back to my question, of the 14 to 15 people that
6 worked for you in May and June 1992, specifically how many of them were
8 A. Well, it's slightly less than 50 per cent.
9 Q. Okay. Were there Croats working among this group of non-Serbs
10 that were working with you?
11 A. Yes, I think that some remained until the end, and then joined the
12 light brigade.
13 Q. What about Muslims? Did you have any Bosniaks working for you
14 during this two-month period in May and June of 1992 while you're doing
15 the reorganisation?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I'm trying to find the place in your testimony. You said:
18 "Certain elements wanted to remain and stay there and work there, and
19 other ethnicities other than the Serbs also remained." Why did certain
20 elements want to leave? Do you know?
21 A. They had no reason to leave because of the staff or the command.
22 But because of the political situation in Banja Luka, they -- some
23 remained, some left. But not very many.
24 Q. Just let me clear up this one final point. You said: "... some
25 remained, some left. But not very many." Within your staff, how many
1 non-Serbs left during this time period we're talking about in May and June
2 of 1992?
3 A. Well, I don't know the names. I can't remember them. But the
4 atmosphere was such that many remained. No one was forcing them. But I
5 can't remember individually the names of these persons.
6 Q. You've talked about this reorganisation that was done in part to
7 incorporate the TO into the VRS. Did this reorganisation require that you
8 have conversations and/or meetings with the corps commander?
9 A. For the reorganisation of the TO at that particular point in time,
10 it was, in fact, a short period of time, and it was very fragmented. The
11 TO organised on the basis of local communities, and much time was needed,
12 and there were instructions and orders and discussion revolved around
13 those issues, how this should be done.
14 Q. Right. I'm not faulting you for this, but I don't think you
15 answered the question of conversations with the corps commander. Did that
16 happen? Yes or no?
17 A. Yes, especially when appointing the commanders of the brigade. He
18 was appointed by the commander of the corps, and the TO would propose who.
19 They didn't -- it was necessary to adjust these appointees who would be
20 appointed commander of the brigades. And So this was a topic of
22 Q. During the time that this reorganisation was going on, where did
23 you spend the bulk of your time? Was it devoted to reorganisation and
24 everything that went with it, or to something else?
25 A. Well, a lot of my time was devoted to that. That was one of my
1 primary tasks, the reorganisation of the total TO. So most of my time was
2 devoted to that.
3 Q. What happened with the four light infantry brigades once they were
5 A. Four light infantry brigades, well, the reorganisation lasted
6 until June 15th, and then they were formed, these brigades, and became
7 part of the corps, of the 1st Krajina Corps under the command of
8 the -- the commander of the corps appointed the commander of those
9 brigades, a group of officers which -- who commanded the brigade, the four
10 light infantry brigades. So the staff -- the municipal staff ceased to
11 exist, and my function as -- in the Territorial Defence stopped as well.
12 Q. Okay. Now, you told us about the date of this reorganisation
13 starting shortly after the official proclamation of the VRS on 12 May
14 1992. At some time during the first week of May 1992, did you become
15 aware you had been appointed to the ARK Crisis Staff?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And do you remember the date that you were appointed?
18 A. I remember when I was invited and informed of this appointment. I
19 think it was on May 5th, according to the council.
20 Q. Now, did your efforts, the time that you spent to the
21 reorganisation of the municipality TO, did that interfere with your
22 ability to attend meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff?
23 MR. NICHOLLS: That was pretty leading. I mean --
24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'll rephrase it.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: I think he's already made his point, but in the
1 future I'd rather the -- those be -- when we get into this area --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you, Mr. Nicholls. Usually as you know,
3 I do not interfere unless there is an objection. And I think the
4 objection is well founded. I invite Mr. Cunningham to rephrase his
6 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
7 Q. As a member of the ARK Crisis Staff, were there meetings -- let me
8 back up. Were there meetings called of the ARK Crisis Staff?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What effect, if any, did your -- did the reorganisation and the
11 time that you were spending with the reorganisation have on your ability
12 to attend ARK Crisis Staff meetings?
13 A. Well, it limited my possibilities of attending those meetings.
14 Q. And we'll come back -- we'll come to this again in the future.
15 But if you missed a meeting of the ARK Crisis Staff, were you ever
16 individually threatened or sanctioned for failing to attend?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Very early in your testimony, you told us that at one time during
19 the spring and summer of 1992, you were the regional -- you were the
20 secretary for the regional secretariat for National Defence. Do you
21 remember when you got that position, what date that was?
22 A. Well, end of April I was appointed, and I took over the duty
23 following this cessation of the TO and the reorganisation following June
24 15th. So I partially had that duty, but not professionally, not -- I
25 wasn't paid for that, and I didn't have my working hours.
1 Q. Okay. When did you start devoting time, if any, to the duties
2 that went with being the secretary?
3 A. Well, the secretary of the National Defence, it is actually a
4 related or similar function which existed in times of peace at the level
5 of certain groups in the municipality. And at the time, the republic
6 secretary for National Defence had his own department in -- or unit in
7 individual cities which covered certain -- this was Mostar, Tuzla,
8 Sarajevo --
9 Q. Let me go ahead and stop you there. Because I think you
10 misunderstood my question. What I asked you was: In light of the fact
11 that you were dealing with the reorganisation of the TO, when did you
12 actually start devoting time, if any, to the duties that went with being
13 the secretary?
14 A. Following the reorganisation of the Territorial Defence.
15 Q. Okay. Now, in this position, the secretary for the -- excuse me.
16 The position that you were appointed to on 27 April 1992, was that a new
17 position under the law?
18 A. It was called secretary, but before that, was the assistant of the
19 Defence for the region of Banja Luka. This unit, it was a branch actually
20 of the Ministry of Defence, had existed in the past, and the deputy at the
21 time for Banja Luka, his name was Cecerevic [phoen], Ranko. So when the
22 council was formed, it appointed me secretary for the National Defence of
23 the region which implied the function that had the same sort of
24 competencies as in the past.
25 Q. And the actual position that had the same sort of competence in
1 the past was what? What was the name of that position?
2 A. Deputy minister for National Defence for the region of Banja Luka.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. It was a function of the deputy minister for National Defence of
5 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
6 Q. Was your position, the one that you got appointed to, was it a
7 brand-new position that had just been developed?
8 A. Well, I don't know if I explained this clearly. I was appointed
9 to the function of secretary. This name did not exist in the past but
10 were the same as those of deputy minister.
11 Q. What was your reaction when you got appointed to this position?
12 A. Well, sincerely speaking, I wasn't happy about it.
13 Q. Why was that?
14 A. Because I had -- I was very busy in the sense of Territorial
15 Defence. It was a duplication of functions, and I couldn't cover
17 Q. What were your job responsibilities as -- in this new position
18 that you were appointed to on 27 April 1992?
19 A. My obligation was to be a link between the Ministry of Defence of
20 the Socialist Republic of B and H, and the Serb Republic of Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina. It was called the Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
22 It was a link between the municipal secretariat and the ministry. It was
23 a link, a bypass, transmitting communications, orders, providing
24 assistance to the municipal secretariats.
25 Q. Okay. Did your job duties include anything involving recruitment?
1 A. Well, the function itself in the secretariat for National Defence
2 was before the war, during the war, and now more or less the same, which
3 means that it was a job to keep records of the age of young men coming to
4 serve in the army, that means recruitment, recruitment, recruitment of
5 conscripts. Then filling in the ranks with reservists in the JNA units,
6 and later on this was being done in the -- within the VRS. Then filling
7 in and actually finding all that was required in terms of vehicles and so
8 forth. Briefly, this was the kind of job responsibility, and this was
9 being done from the level of the ministries down to the level of the
11 Q. Did your job have a civil defence or civil protection aspect?
12 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry. Just to check -- there's something --
13 I want to see if this is a translation error. It's about page 52 -- I've
14 lost it. 52/1, the witness has described the municipal secretariat, and
15 being municipal secretariat and a link to the municipal secretariat. And
16 earlier the testimony -- and I believe it's -- he used the term regional
17 secretariat. So I don't know if we're talking about the region or
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll put it to the witness myself. To the question
20 of what were your job responsibilities, and this imposition on 27th April,
21 you said: "My obligation was to be a link between the Ministry of Defence
22 of the Socialist Republic of B and H, and the Serb Republic of Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina. It was called the Serb Republic. It was a link between the
24 municipal secretariat and the ministry." Is that correct? Or was it a
25 link between the regional secretariat and the ministry?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. My
2 function was to be a link between the Ministry of Defence of Republika
3 Srpska and the municipal secretariat. So the Defence Ministry and the
4 municipal secretariat.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We have to stop here so that we can change
6 the tapes. I suggest a break of about 5 minutes. And then we will stop
7 for 30 minutes or 25 minutes at half past 12.00. Thank you.
8 --- Break taken at 11.53 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 12.00 p.m.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, do you want to wait for Ms. Korner or not?
11 MR. NICHOLLS: We can start, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a moment.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a couple of
16 [Private session]
12 Page 23601 redacted, private session
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.
12 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Before our break, Mr. Sajic, I asked you whether your job as
14 secretary for the secretariat for National Defence had a civil defence or
15 civil protection component, and you didn't get a chance to answer that.
16 So could you do that now, please.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what was that civil defence, civil protection component of
19 your job?
20 A. Civil protection means that there are units of civilian protection
21 that can be used to take care of the population under a wide range of
22 different circumstances. You have first aid units there; you have vet
23 units; you have sanitation units; you have fire fighting units, all sorts
24 of civil units.
25 Q. Did -- as the secretary for the regional secretariat for National
1 Defence, did you play any role in mobilisation, or did your office play
2 any role in mobilisation?
3 A. This was one of its major roles of the secretariat, mobilisation,
5 Q. Briefly, how did that work with respect to the secretariat?
6 A. Mobilisation of units before and now was done through the Defence
7 secretariat. Now those are sections or branches offices, but back then
8 they used to be secretariats. Commands submit requests for certain units
9 to be mobilised, and then the secretariats, by couriers, forward the
10 call-ups to people's home addresses whenever persons are being mobilised
11 if. Need is to mobilise vehicles or cattle or other materiel resources
12 that the unit is entitled to, no matter whether those are privately owned
13 or owned by a company, if assigned to those units, these requests are also
14 carried out. This roughly speaking is the way it's done. A call-up is
15 sent. People are told where to report to, according to their assignment.
16 Q. You said that commands submit requests for certain units to be
17 mobilised. To whom would the command submit these requests? Would they
18 come to you or another secretariat?
19 A. The requests would go -- well, depending on the level of the units
20 being mobilised. If it was general mobilisation, this would have been
21 ordered by the Defence Ministry. If individual units are being mobilised,
22 where individual units are being mobilised, one is and one isn't, so to
23 say, then the requests are mostly sent down to the secretariats where the
24 recruitment is being done because all the files were and still are with
25 the municipalities as to recruitment.
1 As for mobilisation, general mobilisation, this is always ordered
2 by the ministry and submitted via what today we call branch offices or
3 sections, recruitment offices. At that time, it was the secretariat for
4 the Autonomous Region of Krajina. That's as far as mobilisation is
6 Q. Now, you said that the requests are mostly sent down to
7 secretariats where the recruitment is being done because all the files
8 were and still are with the municipalities. I take it that means that you
9 would -- these would go to the national secretariat on the municipal
10 level. Correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. In your capacity as the secretary, were you obligated, were
13 you required, to carry out the orders of the Minister for Defence for the
14 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who did you answer to when you were wearing the hat as secretariat
17 for the National Defence for the ARK? Who was your immediate supervisor?
18 Who did you answer to?
19 A. In terms of defence, in terms of how the jobs were carried out, it
20 would have been the republican Defence minister. Within the organisation
21 itself, the president of the ARK council, the executive council of
22 Krajina. But as far as mobilisation was concerned and those requests to
23 be carried out, it had to do with the Defence Ministry. This was for a
24 brief period of time only. We couldn't even -- I'm talking about two
25 months, a mere two months. And later on, sections or departments were set
1 up where you knew for sure who answered to whom and for what.
2 Q. In these two months that you worked in this capacity, did anyone
3 on the municipal -- excuse me, on the regional level have the authority --
4 let me back up. In the two months that you worked in this capacity, did
5 any civilian person on the regional level have the authority to order a
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. Did anyone on the regional or municipal level have the
9 authority or competence to order you to undertake any act while you were
10 wearing this hat? And I'm talking about the regional or municipal
11 civilian level.
12 A. No.
13 Q. What I'd like for you to do is I'd like for you to open up the
14 exhibit book that I have for you, and I'd like you to go to the tab -- it
15 should be the very first tab in there marked Exhibit P153. Do you have
16 that document in front of you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. This is a decision dated 16 April 1992, and who is it signed by on
19 the second page?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who is the person who signed it? Tell us who it is.
22 A. The Minister of National Defence, Bogdan Subotic.
23 Q. And in terms of hierarchy or chain of command, who is he in
24 relation to your position at the secretariat?
25 A. My superior.
1 Q. Okay. Did you receive this decision dated 16 April 1992?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. And upon receipt of this decision, what did you do with it?
4 A. Pursuant to the decision, I issued an order on mobilisation in ARK
5 Krajina territory. I forwarded this to the municipal secretariats for
6 National Defence.
7 Q. Okay. Could you go now to document -- the next document which I
8 think is 167. That should be the next one there. Do you recognise this
9 document that's in front of you, P167?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is that the decision that you talked about regarding general
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What was the source of this document, P167? Was it the Ministry
15 of Defence or the Autonomous Region of Krajina?
16 A. The Ministry of Defence.
17 Q. Okay. If we were to compare this exhibit, this document dated 4
18 May 1992, with the previous one, P153 dated 16 April 1992, it appears to
19 me that there's also something in there about disarmament. Am I correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, can I just say for the record this 4th May
22 document is also P1182 [Realtime transcript read in error "P1128"], which
23 is an updated version, corrected.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
25 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
1 Q. The Exhibit P153 dealt only with mobilisation. Disarmament has
2 been added on to this. Could you tell us how and why this discussion --
3 an explanation with regard to disarmament of paramilitary formations is
4 added to your order. How did that come about?
5 A. The intention behind this decision was to assume some of the
6 obligations to disarm units, paramilitary units, and those who were in
7 possession of unlawful weapons. We're talking about the month of May, and
8 some of the units were already on front or in Croatia. Those had by and
9 large returned by this time. Secondly, this had been going on for several
10 months, and in major towns such as Banja Luka, even in smaller towns,
11 people had begun to emerge who in a manner of speaking belonged to no one,
12 not the JNA, not the Territorial Defence. Paramilitaries. Very often
13 those were deserters, and some were even prone to crime. There was a need
14 to have a decision on this to disarm all such units, to call on them to
15 hand over their weapons so that the situation throughout the territory
16 could be placed under control. That was the meaning.
17 Q. Before I ask my next question, I'd like to ask with the Court's
18 person for Mr. Nicholls to repeat that exhibit number because it came out
19 1128 in the transcript and I think you said 1182.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: That's right. 1182 is the corrected version.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you both. Let's proceed.
22 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
23 Q. Let me go back and break down your answer you were talking about.
24 When you talk about these individuals who were in possession of unlawful
25 weapons during May and before, what ethnicity are you concerned with?
1 A. I'm not sure that's -- well, in fact, we're talking about a number
2 of different nationalities. It wasn't about one ethnic group only, the
3 Serb ethnic group. Back in May, there were people from all the different
4 ethnic groups still in town. No one had left by that time.
5 I'll try to put this briefly. The connection between criminals on
6 the one hand or those who did not observe the law, there was no particular
7 discrimination there. There were Croats, Serbs, Muslims on that side, all
8 of them. And the same goes for deserters. In the JNA, from 1991, there
9 had been many recruitments from non-Serbs, from non-Serb groups. For
10 example, there were units where you had up to 30 per cent of persons from
11 other ethnic groups, even those deserters who had left their units, kept
12 their weapons, and kept their uniforms, and used these on a number of
13 occasions to steal anything. There was a lot of confusion being created
14 in town, but everyone, all the different ethnic groups were involved.
15 Q. Okay. Was this decision, specifically paragraph number 6 in
16 Exhibit 167, the document that's attributed to you as secretary of the
17 regional secretariat, was this decision intended to disarm only the
18 non-Serb population or was it intended for everyone in illegal possession?
19 A. All the paramilitary units, all the paramilitary formations. Even
20 formations belonging to private entrepreneurs. All of those were meant to
21 be disarmed because some people had begun to profiteer, and some people
22 had begun to set up their own private units as some form of security. All
23 units that were not regular military units were meant to be disarmed.
24 When I say "regular units," at the time I mean the JNA on the one hand and
25 the TO on the other. Everyone else was susceptible to disarmament, no
1 exception made.
2 Q. At the time that you issued this decision, was there a problem
3 with Serbian paramilitaries in the area of Banja Luka?
4 A. There was a problem. There were paramilitary units, which means
5 that they were not under control. The problem you have immediately is how
6 to uphold public law and order in town. People were walking about
7 carrying weapons, and some of those people had left their units, deserted,
8 and joined paramilitary units layer on. Therefore, their very presence
9 was a problem.
10 Q. Okay. And were you living in Banja Luka in 1992, in May of 1992?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Had you seen this problem that you've described, with your own
14 A. With my own eyes, through my people.
15 Q. Who would actually -- would the secretariat for National Defence,
16 would that be the entity responsible for disarmament?
17 A. No. No. The police would have been responsible for disarmament.
18 The tasks were issued at the level of the civilian and military police.
19 The military police would have been charged with bringing in any person
20 wearing a uniform, no matter how the specific person had come by the
21 uniform. No matter if it was a regular soldier or a soldier who just
22 totally of his own accord put on a uniform and walked around touting a
23 weapon. This would have been the military police, and the civilian police
24 would have been in charge of doing the same with civilian persons. These
25 were duties which were clearly articulated.
1 Q. Okay. Now, we've talked about these paramilitaries in possession
2 of illegal weapons. Do you have any idea where these weapons came from,
3 how they got these weapons?
4 A. To put it mildly, Your Honours, the weapons were very easy to get,
5 especially if we look at the Banja Luka area because units from the area
6 had already been in Croatia and then returned to the Banja Luka general
7 area. Those units were carrying weapons. For a while, they were handing
8 over these weapons, but there were a lot of deserters who deserted with
9 their weapons.
10 Secondly, a lot of weapons had arrived in the Krajina region from
11 the Serb refugees from the Pakrac Valley in Croatia who brought weapons
12 with them on their way back when they came to Krajina. And they even
13 handed these weapons over. These weapons were there for the people to be
14 had. It was possible.
15 Q. And prior to the date of your order, specifically 1990 and 1991,
16 were weapons distributed by the three parties in the Banja Luka
18 A. I'm not sure which three parties you mean.
19 Q. I'm talking about -- I'm talking about the HDZ, the SDS, and the
21 A. I have no information who, how much, when. But all the three
22 parties were giving weapons to people. This was generally known. The
23 HDZ, the SDA, and the SDS, all of them.
24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, Your Honours, we're at a good breaking
25 point if that's fine for you.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we need to have a break now. We'll have a
2 25-minute break, and we will resume after that. Thank you.
3 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to go to private session?
6 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, I wanted to address the Chamber without
7 the witness being here to make sure that I'm following on your --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't realise your client wasn't present.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.
11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I think this needs to be done in private session.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session for a while.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.
14 [Private session]
12 Pages 23613 redacted, private session
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are in open session, and Madam Usher has
9 gone to escort the witness into the courtroom. Thank you.
10 Yes, Mr. Cunningham.
11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Q. We were talking about arms and the arming of individuals in the
13 Banja Luka area. When the TO is mobilised, are the people who respond to
14 mobilisation, are they given weapons?
15 A. The Territorial Defence is mobilised along the lines of the JNA.
16 People are called. They come, and they are issued with arms. And it
17 remains within the unit, as well as other means, resources.
18 Q. Does the TO exist in local communes?
19 A. The TO of the Municipality of Banja Luka, as well as other
20 municipalities in B and H exist in local communes and in enterprises. So
21 in local communes and in enterprises, these are units, companies.
22 Q. Okay. And in 1991 and 1992, were there Croat communes and Muslim
23 communes on the territory of Banja Luka Municipality?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In 1991 and 1992, when mobilisation was called, would weapons have
1 been distributed in these Croat and Muslim communes in accordance with the
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are you -- can you give the Court an example of a municipality, a
5 non-Serb -- excuse me, a non-Serb commune that was equipped with weapons
6 during mobilisation.
7 A. I can speak of the Banja Luka Municipality. There is the example.
8 It's a part near Vrbanja and Veljak. And Vrbanja also received arms.
9 Simic, the village of Simic is also a case in point, purely Croat. It had
10 a unit, and this unit was issued with arms. The Simic local commune.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry, could I ask for a time frame since the
12 previous question addressed 1991 and 1992.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, perfectly legitimate. Mr. Cunningham.
14 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
15 Q. You talked about issuance of weapons to this commune. When did
16 that occur? Can you give us a date?
17 A. I cannot recall the date, the exact date when the mobilisation of
18 the units took place. It was done then, whenever a unit was mobilised.
19 It was done in that way. Mobilisation took place in accordance with the
20 needs of control of the territory, and it could have been in spring of
22 Q. Okay. While we're on the subject of mobilisation, I want ask you
23 in your capacity as secretary of the regional secretariat for National
24 Defence, first of all, did you get paid a salary, separate and apart from
25 that you received --
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. Did you have a staff?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you have a separate office where you could perform the
5 functions of secretary of the regional secretariat?
6 A. Well, I began carrying out that function when I had more time. It
7 was the period -- I think it was in June, second half of June. Then I
8 used the office that already existed where people were already working
9 before, the people from the unit which had been transformed, which had
10 been transformed into this secretariat. The premises were located in the
11 building of the former committee of the League of Communists.
12 Q. Okay. Now, you told us you didn't have a staff when you were the
13 secretary to the regional secretariat. Could you alone order a -- could
14 you alone carry out or handle all the paperwork necessary for
16 A. Well, my job before June, well, I did as much as I could.
17 Q. Okay. Who was responsible for actually implementing the
18 mobilisation? Did that happen on the republic level, municipal level?
19 What level was responsible for actually getting the troops mobilised?
20 A. The municipal level.
21 Q. I want to clear up while we're talking about the secretariat for
22 national defence, in your LiveNote testimony, in your testimony earlier
23 today, page 57, line 24 -- excuse me, line 22, you were asked: "Who was
24 your immediate supervisor? Who did you answer to?" And you said the
25 following: "In terms of defence, in terms of how the jobs were carried
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 out, it would have been the republican defence minister. Within the
2 organisation itself, the president of the ARK council, the executive
3 council of Krajina." And I want to focus on that last sentence where you
4 said: "Within the organisation itself, the president of the ARK council,
5 the executive council of Krajina." What did you mean by that?
6 A. Well, the executive council of ARK who was Nikola Erceg, it had
7 its secretaries. The government was not fully composed, but it had its
8 secretaries, and they had to -- responsible in terms of organisations
9 towards the council. The mobilisation was linked exclusively to the
10 Ministry of Defence.
11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: What I'd like to do now with the Court's
12 permission is to go into private session.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while,
14 Madam Registrar, please.
15 [Private session]
12 Page 23619 redacted, private session
12 Page 23620 redacted, private session
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back in open session.
13 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
14 Q. Did you ever tell anyone before the arrival of the SOS that you
15 had decided to block the streets of Banja Luka?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you ever tell anyone that that decision was made with members
18 of the ARK Crisis Staff? Did you ever say that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you ever tell anyone that was done with the consent and
21 approval of General Talic?
22 A. No.
23 Q. When did the -- your tasks as the secretary for the regional
24 secretariat, when did those end?
25 A. Well, my duties stopped as early as in July. Actually, in July,
1 the Minister of Defence Subotic ordered that the president of the
2 executive council Nikola Erceg and I propose people who would be in charge
3 of the department of National Defence in several parts of the region at
4 the time. This was in early July. From the secretariat for defence of
5 the region, several units were to be set up in the region. Petrovac,
6 Drvar, Banja Luka, Doboj. And here, he actually assumed that this would
7 be taken up by active officers and that there would be no secretariats in
8 the ARK, but departments. And I understood this, that there would be a
9 situation where they would be deprived of power. It was at the time that
10 he asked us. I actually didn't propose any new people, nor Mr. Erceg, in
11 the case of Banja Luka. Active-duty officers were appointed in
12 Banja Luka. And I don't know about the other places.
13 Q. We've talked about your role as commander of the Banja Luka TO.
14 We've talked about your role as the secretary for the national
15 secretariat. Let's now talk about the ARK Crisis Staff, because you told
16 us that sometime in early May, you found out that you were appointed to
17 the ARK Crisis Staff. If you want to, if you'd look at the exhibit in
18 your notebook, 168, because I'm going to ask you some questions, and I'd
19 like you to have that document in front of you in case you need to look at
20 it. P168 is a decision on the formation of the war staff of the
21 Autonomous Region of Krajina attributed to the president of the executive
22 council, Mr. Erceg, dated 5 May 1992.
23 How did you find out that you were selected, appointed to be a
24 member of the ARK Crisis Staff?
25 A. I found out after I had been called to come to that meeting.
1 Q. And what was your reaction once you had learned that you had been
2 appointed to this entity?
3 A. I believe I already said that I wasn't particularly glad about
4 this. This didn't make me happy. That's one thing. Secondly, it was by
5 virtue of my position that when crisis staffs were established in the
6 former state and then that I would be part of the crisis staff.
7 Therefore, I didn't have a real say in whether I became member or not.
8 One knew exactly under the legal procedure which persons would be
9 appointed to crisis staffs as well as to National Defence Councils. That
10 I have already talked about.
11 Q. If we look at Prosecutor's Exhibit 168, page 2, we see you,
12 Colonel Milorad Sajic, and then it says vice-president. When did you find
13 out that you were the vice-president of the ARK Crisis Staff?
14 A. I found out that that's what the decision had stated, that I
15 became vice-president of the ARK Crisis Staff. But it was only later when
16 I looked at the documents before giving my statement to the Office of the
17 Prosecutor. That's where I saw it written for the first time. But I
18 never was vice-president, and I never actually discharged this duty in
19 actual fact, and I didn't feel that I was vice-president.
20 Q. Okay. If we look at this exhibit, P168, we see 1 through 15, 15
21 different named individuals. In 1992, in May when this document was
22 issued, do you know whether the individuals listed 1 through 15 -- do you
23 know which municipality they lived in?
24 A. If it's the same document that I have before me, decision to set
25 up crisis staff, is that the one you mean?
1 Q. Yes, sir.
2 A. All these persons listed here, for the most part, are people from
3 Banja Luka.
4 Q. You say "for the most part." Can you tell us any one of those 15
5 people that came from outside Banja Luka, that resided outside Banja Luka?
6 A. All of them resided in Banja Luka. I'm not sure about the pilot
7 here, the major, who he was, but he did reside in Banja Luka. He had
8 arrived in Banja Luka as an active military officer. They all did reside
9 in Banja Luka.
10 Q. I'm going to talk to you about attendance at ARK meetings. When
11 we met, I gave you a copy of Prosecutor's Exhibit 227, which is the ARK
12 Gazette that covers a portion of the meetings held by the ARK Crisis
14 Let me ask you: Did you have -- did you attend all the meetings
15 of the ARK Crisis Staff?
16 A. No.
17 Q. With your obligations to the TO as well as your obligations to
18 the -- being the secretary, how many meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff do
19 you believe that you attended?
20 A. I believe five or six. Thereabouts.
21 Q. I don't know if looking through Prosecutor's Exhibit 227 in your
22 hotel room helped refresh your recollection, but can you generally tell us
23 when your attendance at these meetings was? Was it May? Was it June?
24 First part of July? What can you tell us, if anything, about when you
25 attended the meetings?
1 A. Mostly it may have been May, June. I don't know that there were
2 any meetings at all in July.
3 Q. Okay. Recognising that you were there five, maybe six meetings,
4 I'm going to ask you some questions about the attendance of other
5 individuals. First of all, was Mr. Brdjanin present at every meeting you
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What I'm going to do is rather than go down the list, I'm going to
9 focus in first, and the list I'm talking about is Prosecutor's Number 168.
10 If you need to have it there, get it in front of you. The first group of
11 individuals that I want to talk to you about that are contained in the
12 decision are the individuals that are in the military. So we would be
13 talking first about number 8, General Talic. In the five, six meetings
14 that you attended, did you ever see General Talic at the meeting?
15 A. Once, I believe.
16 Q. At any of the meetings that you were there, was there ever any
17 discussion about dealing with Mr. -- General Talic's absences from the
18 crisis staff?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you know a Colonel Vojinovic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did he attend crisis staff meetings?
23 A. Several of them, yes.
24 Q. And do you know what -- why he did that? What purpose was he
25 there for?
1 A. I think we even sat together at one or two meetings. He would
2 usually listen to what was being said. He had no authority to present any
3 of his ideas there, to accept or refuse. He just passed on the decisions
4 and conclusions to his command. He was the assistant commander of the
5 corps for civilian affairs. So usually he was there on behalf of the
6 civilian affairs organ, but he did not have any powers.
7 Q. Do you ever remember any statements that Colonel Vojinovic may
8 have made during crisis staff meetings about what he could or couldn't do?
9 A. I don't believe he spoke at meetings of the crisis staff. If
10 there was anything he ever said, he would usually just say "I'll just
11 write down what you've just said," but he never made any statements of his
12 own. He never put forward any of his own positions because he was simply
13 not authorised to do so.
14 Q. Okay. During the five or six meetings that you attended, did the
15 ARK Crisis Staff ever command General Talic or his representative to
16 undertake any specific or certain acts?
17 A. The crisis staff had no power to issue any orders to Talic. Maybe
18 there was discussion about the situation in the military about problems,
19 this may have been done at meetings, but certainly there were no official
21 Q. Okay. Let's talk now about the individual at number 9,
22 Major Zoran Jokic. Do you know what branch of the military he was in?
23 A. I think he was a pilot in the air force.
24 Q. Okay. You told us you were at five or six meetings. At those
25 five or six meetings, did you ever see Colonel Jokic?
1 A. Major, Major Jokic.
2 Q. I apologise.
3 A. I saw him -- I saw him once, and I asked who the man was because I
4 hadn't known him. And I never saw him again after that.
5 Q. Okay. Same question with regard to General Talic and/or his
6 representative. Did the ARK Crisis Staff ever command or direct
7 Major Jokic to undertake a specific act?
8 A. No.
9 Q. I want to talk now about two individuals tied in with the police.
10 Do you know who Stojan Zupljanin is?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. He's the individual at number 10 on Exhibit P168. Do you remember
13 seeing him at meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff?
14 A. Perhaps once or twice. Not very often.
15 Q. And what was your understanding of what his position was in
16 Banja Luka?
17 A. Stojan Zupljanin was the chief of the Security Services Centre,
18 the regional centre, for Banja Luka which consisted of a number of
19 municipalities. In simple terms, you'd say the police chief, the civilian
20 police chief. His position was such that above him there was the minister
21 of the interior, and he received orders, instructions, and decisions from
22 the relevant minister. He was not associated with any other specific
24 Q. Let's look at the individual reflected at number 14,
25 Slobodan Dubocanin. Do you know who he was?
1 A. I don't know what his name is doing here in this list.
2 Q. What was your understanding of his position, if any, in Banja Luka
3 in 1992?
4 A. He was a reserve officer. He was in the army. I don't know
5 whether he left the army eventually or not. But I am not aware of any
6 official position that he held.
7 Q. With respect to his attendance, what can you tell us? How many
8 times, if any, did you see him at an ARK Crisis Staff meeting?
9 A. The same thing. Once, perhaps, the first time. I never noticed
10 him again later.
11 Q. Okay. With respect to Stojan Zupljanin, did the ARK Crisis Staff
12 ever issue any direct orders to him as far as you know?
13 A. No. Not as far as I know.
14 Q. Now, let's go ahead and fill in the blanks by talking about the
15 other individuals. Individual at number 3, Vojo Kupresanin, how would you
16 characterise his attendance?
17 A. He did attend some of the meetings. I'm not sure if we attended
18 the same meetings, the two of us. But he did attend meetings, especially
19 when the municipality presidents from the region attended because he was
20 the president of the assembly of the Krajina region.
21 Q. Okay. And we'll get to talking about the attendance of the
22 municipality presidents in a bit. The name at number 4, Nikola Erceg, who
23 is president of the executive council, do you remember him at the ARK
24 Crisis Staff meetings that you attended?
25 A. I don't think he attended all the meetings. He was the president
1 of the executive council, and he was there whenever problems to do with
2 the economy, with supplies, staple goods to the population were being
3 discussed. But I don't think those were official meetings. Those were
4 work meetings. Those were no sessions of the crisis staff. As far as
5 that was concerned, yes, he was there because the executive council was
6 operating both in May and in June, and it was passing decisions.
7 Q. You said that -- you just mentioned work meetings. Did you attend
8 these work meetings that you just mentioned?
9 A. If you mean meetings with the presidents of the municipalities,
10 yes, I did attend a number of those, but I do not know whether I attended
11 all of them.
12 Q. No, no, no, what I was talking about was in your answer with
13 respect to Mr. Erceg -- I see what you're talking about. And I'll come
14 back to that. Let me go down to the next person on the list, number 5,
15 Mr. Radic, the president of the municipality. How would you characterise
16 his attendance?
17 A. He came very rarely, if at all. I don't think he spoke at those
19 Q. Do you know what his attitude was towards the competence of the
20 crisis staff?
21 A. He did not see this body as a body that was above him, that was
22 superior to him. He did not have any respect for this body as a superior
23 body. He believed his duty as the president was to run the municipality
24 and to rally behind him the republican organs in the exercise of his
25 duties. And that was precisely how he acted.
1 Q. Okay. The individual at number 6 is Radislav Vukic. What can you
2 tell us about his attendance at these meetings?
3 A. Radislav Vukic, I can't say how many times he was there, but he
4 was there. I don't think attendance was kept of who was there and who
5 wasn't and how many times certain persons came. I can't say exactly how
6 many times, but he was the party president and as such, yes, sometimes he
7 did attend.
8 Q. Number 7 is Dr. Milovan Milanovic. What about his attendance?
9 A. Very rarely, I think.
10 Q. Okay. We skip 3 and go to number 11, Dr. Rajko Kuzmanovic. What
11 can you tell us about his attendance?
12 A. I never saw him at any of the meetings.
13 Q. Were you aware that Dr. Kuzmanovic was replaced by another
14 individual whose name escapes me at the time, but he was the director of
15 Banja Luka University? Do you remember that -- the replacement of
16 Dr. Kuzmanovic?
17 A. Yes. There was a replacement in the rectorate of the university
18 between Kuzmanovic and Mijanic, and he was later called upon to join. But
19 he did not come very often to meetings of the crisis staff, Mijanic.
20 Q. You cleared that up. That takes us to number 12, Mr.
21 Milan Puvacic. What was his attendance at crisis staff meetings like?
22 A. I only saw him very few times. Not that I attended all of the
23 sessions myself, but Milan Puvacic was a secretary of sorts with the ARK
24 council or another position perhaps. I don't know really. I can't say.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I just say for the record, Mr. Brdjanin is
1 shaking his head in response to some of the questions asked by counsel and
2 nodding to others. I just noticed that. I'd ask that he not do that.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a good thing the witness hasn't been looking at
4 Mr. Brdjanin.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: That's how I noticed it, because I saw the witness
6 looking over at Mr. Brdjanin shaking his head, and I wanted to bring
7 Your Honours' attention to that fact.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman, I will let Mr. Cunningham
9 concentrate on the questions, and you look after the rest, please. Thank
11 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
12 Q. We're almost done, Mr. Sajic.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't hear you say thank you, Mr. Ackerman.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: "Thank you, Mr. Ackerman."
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.
16 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
17 Q. Witness, we're now down to number 13, who is Jovo Rosic. Tell us
18 about his attendance? Tell us how many times you remember seeing him
19 while you were there?
20 A. Jovo Rosic, he's from the Justice Department. He was later with
21 the Ministry of Republika Srpska, I believe. But he did not come to those
22 meetings, the meetings of the crisis staff, no.
23 Q. The last person I'm going to ask you about is number 15,
24 Nenad Stevanovic -- it says Stevanovic?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Nenad Stevandic.
1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's what I assumed.
2 Q. Nenad Stevandic, do you remember seeing him at any of the meetings
3 you attended?
4 A. I did see him once or twice I believe, the first two possibly.
5 Q. My last question of the day because it's about time to break: Of
6 these people who missed meetings including yourself, were they ever
7 sanctioned for punished for their failure to attend these meetings?
8 A. I was never admonished myself, or sanctioned, and I don't believe
9 that they were.
10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: It's a perfect stopping point, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Sajic, we are going to stop here for
12 today. We will continue tomorrow. Between now and tomorrow, you're not
13 to contact anyone with regard to your testimony here. You're not to
14 discuss it with anyone, irrespective of whether you approach other people
15 or whether you are approached. So you are still testifying here, and
16 you're not allowed to discuss your testimony. Is that clear?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very much so, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You'll be escorted now by Madam Usher.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: We will continue tomorrow in the afternoon, by the
22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I think it's consistent with what we've talked
23 about before. He can leave the exhibit book in the courtroom.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, you can leave that here. Mr. Cunningham will
25 look after it.
1 Thank you, good afternoon. See you tomorrow in the afternoon.
2 Anything else before we rise? Nothing.
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what I propose to do, I hope, is some --
4 send a list of the potential sites to Mr. Ackerman by email this
5 afternoon, and then perhaps we can reach an agreed --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: You can come back to us as soon as possible. And
7 then the other thing I wanted to mention is that Registrar has recommended
8 to me, to us, not to think about going there in January or February
9 because of the weather. So that has been made quite clear. I don't
10 know --
11 MS. KORNER: We've all been there, Your Honour. It depends. It's
12 better, probably preferable, to go in March.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. So keep that in mind, please.
14 Thank you, good afternoon.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day of
17 December, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.