Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23733

1 Wednesday, 17 December 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon, Your Honours.

8 Case Number IT-99-36-T, The Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, ma'am.

10 Appearances -- sorry, Mr. Brdjanin, can you follow in a language

11 that you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Yes,

13 I can.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you.

15 Appearances, Prosecution.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Julian Nicholls

17 with Joanna Korner and Denise Gustin.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And good afternoon to you.

19 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

20 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Good afternoon, Your Honours. David Cunningham

21 with John Ackerman assisted by Aleksandar Vujic.

22 And I have a couple of logistical matters to bring to the Court's

23 attention. When we broke yesterday, you asked me to estimate how much my

24 redirect examination would be. Probably 10 minutes or 15 at the most.

25 That's the first point.

Page 23734

1 The second point is there was a mix-up solely on the part of the

2 Defence with respect to the proofing of our next witness. We went to the

3 holts that we typically go to. The witness was not there. It was only

4 later that we found out which hotel he was at. We couldn't get a

5 proofing done in the time that was allotted.

6 We're going to go ahead and do it this afternoon and be ready to

7 go first thing with that witness. If there has been any suggestion it

8 was a mistake on VWS's part, that was not the case. It was my

9 responsibility to find out the correct hotel, and I didn't. I take full

10 responsibility for the delay.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We expect this witness more or less to be finished

12 with tomorrow.

13 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I don't anticipate a very long

14 examination-in-chief. It's just going to be how long the

15 cross-examination is.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't know either.

17 MS. KORNER: It's me, Your Honour, which means it normally takes

18 longer, I agree. But it's difficult to say at the moment because the

19 summary is not very clear as to what he's going to say other than he was

20 wounded.


22 MS. KORNER: And it depends --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: That is what I --

24 MS. KORNER: -- from that. But I would hope that he would finish

25 tomorrow and the whole matter will finish tomorrow.

Page 23735

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's dealt with, then.

2 THE on-site inspections, visit, have you got anything to report,

3 Mr. Ackerman, Ms. Korner?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have looked through what Ms. Korner

5 suggested. I had expected she was going to give a list of some places

6 that she thought you should visit. It turns out she is kind of done a

7 travel schedule for you, which maybe a little more than we all needed.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't seen it obviously. I mean -- but --

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Perhaps before she became a QC, she was a travel

10 agent. There's a little hint that have here. But in any event, I think

11 the places that she has listed are probably appropriate as at least the

12 full gamut of possibilities. You might not want to go to all of those

13 places. The other thing I worry a little bit about that we need to hash

14 out at some point is just the procedure because what I think should not

15 happen in a view is any of us making representations to the Chamber about

16 what happened in this spot and what happened in that spot. I think at

17 most, you should be told "this is Omarska, this is Keraterm, this is

18 Vrhpolje bridge." But in terms of anyone making submissions at any spot,

19 I don't think it's appropriate. Especially if we don't have a court

20 reporter with us. I don't think we will.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what I can do is forward the email to

22 your legal officer, Mr. Roberts, so he can see. Much as I'd like to take

23 credit for being as travel agent in my former life, it was actually Ms.

24 Sutherland who produced that. If Your Honours have a look at the

25 proposed places and the actual nuts and bolts of how we deal with it is

Page 23736

1 something that perhaps can be dealt with at a later stage.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure it will be helpful, Ms. Korner, also

3 because from your side you probably have more experience of -- you are

4 familiar with the area, probably much more than you are. I don't know if

5 you have visited these places already.

6 MS. KORNER: Mr. Ackerman I think has been almost as often as we

7 have.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: I have been every place, sometimes multiple times.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I see, I see. So you are in a better position to

10 make an assessment. Then, of course, I will take the advice of those on

11 whom I can rely.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, as I say, the actual mechanics of how

13 it should work and which places and so on is something that can be

14 assessed later. All we would say is obviously I think the later is can

15 be left within March the better. As Ms. Maglov told you the other day,

16 the weather conditions in Banja Luka, certainly in February, can be

17 awful.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I discussed a little bit with Mr. Roberts this

19 morning, in fact, the best timing. And it's probably what we are talking

20 of, we are talking about. So let's deal with it also when we have the

21 short Status Conference that you are proposing to have today after we

22 finish with this witness.

23 It's my wish to -- we are only having this witness now today. We

24 could finish by 5.00, because there is an urgent meeting that I need to

25 attend to. If I can. I mean, I left all options open obviously, but I

Page 23737

1 would like to be present.

2 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. I don't think there's any

3 difficult with that at all.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay. That's perfect.

5 Last thing, let's go into private session for a while, please.

6 [Private session]

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22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Usher can bring the witness in, please.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Sajic. Welcome back.

Page 23740

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope you've had enough time to rest and that you

3 are as fresh as a rose this afternoon. We'll try and do our best to

4 conclude your cross-examination, and I understand there's going to be a

5 redirect. So you should be out of here before the end of the day, and

6 then you would be able to go back home.

7 Please remember that you are testifying under oath in terms of

8 the solemn undertaking that you made two days ago when you started giving

9 evidence.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]

15 Q. Sir, as His Honour said, I'll try to finish your questioning

16 today. His Honour has reminded you of the solemn declaration you made to

17 take the truth when you first started testifying here for Mr. Cunningham.

18 I take it that you have been telling the truth the entire time you have

19 been here, you've answered my questions as well as Mr. Cunningham's.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to answer that question, you know.


22 Q. I want to clear up just something from yesterday so the record is

23 very clear on this. You stated in questioning from Mr. Cunningham - this

24 is transcript 23:6:20 through 21 - that Colonel Vojinovic attended crisis

25 staff meetings.

Page 23741

1 Q. "The question was did you know Colonel Vojinovic?

2 A. "Yes."

3 Q. "And did he attended crisis staff meetings, several of them?"

4 A. "Yes."

5 Q. "Do you know why he did that the purpose why he was there

6 for?"

7 A. "I think we sat together for one or two meetings. He would

8 usually listen to what was being said. He had no authority

9 to present any of ideas there, to accept or refuse; he just

10 passed on the decisions and conclusions to his command. He

11 was assistant commander of the corps for civilian affairs.

12 So usually he was there on behalf of the civilian affairs

13 organ. But he did not have any powers."

14 Q. "Do you ever remember any statements that Colonel Vojinovic

15 may have made during crisis staff meetings about what he

16 could or couldn't do?"

17 A. "I don't believe he spoke at meetings of the crisis staff.

18 If there was anything he ever said, he would usually just

19 say "I'll just write down what you've just said', but he

20 never made any statements of his own."

21 So just to be clear, Colonel Vojinovic attended ARK crisis staff

22 meetings. Right?

23 A. Some of them.

24 Q. And I think yesterday when you were talking about a meeting that

25 he was at, you said there were multiple presidents there from different

Page 23742

1 municipalities. That's a meeting he attended of an expanded crisis staff

2 meeting; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. Thank you.

5 Now, I want to have you look at one document and see if it

6 reminds you of a meeting that you were present for. This is P229. I

7 have a B/C/S copy highlighted. It's not in your book, sir. This is the

8 7th of June 1992 Sanski Most conclusions adopted at a submeeting of

9 several municipalities. I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph

10 6. I accidentally highlighted paragraph 5 as well. That's not the one

11 I'm going to ask you about. Read paragraph 6 to yourself, please, and

12 let me know when you've read it.

13 A. Finished.

14 Q. All right. The part I'm interested in of paragraph 6 is a

15 section which states: "In this respect, we request that the Crisis Staff

16 of the Autonomous Region of Krajina provide a corridor for the

17 resettlement of Muslims and Croats to Central Bosnia and Alija's

18 independent state of BH because they voted for it. If the leadership of

19 the Autonomous Region of Krajina in Banja Luka fails to solve this issue,

20 our seven municipalities will take all Muslims and Croats under military

21 escort from our municipalities to the centre of Banja Luka."

22 Now, you talked about a meeting where there was an argument with

23 Predrag Radic, and during part of this argument -- I think you said it

24 was people from Prijedor said "we're going to bring all the Muslims and

25 Croats to Banja Luka if you don't do what we want." Is this the same

Page 23743

1 meeting or is this a separate meeting? If it helps you, this is 7th of

2 June 1992.

3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I think the question is confusing because this

4 document is not a meeting of the crisis staff.

5 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll restate it.

6 Q. This is a document -- sir, it's not an ARK Crisis Staff document.

7 This is a document from -- adopted by seven municipalities together. It

8 is directed to the ARK Crisis Staff, and the threat made in this document

9 is that if these various demands are not met, we will march all of the

10 Muslims and Croats to Banja Luka.

11 Now, do you remember being at an ARK Crisis Staff meeting where

12 that conversation took place?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, I would agree with Mr. Cunningham, because

14 the last part of your question is confusing. I mean --

15 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll try again, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: -- instead of saying "do you remember being at the

17 ARK Crisis Staff where that conversation took place" it's "that

18 conversation" which is confusing.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry.

20 Q. Do you remember being at an ARK Crisis Staff meeting where

21 discussion took place on this topic and this threat being made that

22 Muslims and Croats to be brought to Banja Luka? Do you remember a

23 discussion taking place in an ARK Crisis Staff meeting?

24 A. I remember a meeting that I talked to you about when you spoke to

25 me several years ago, and I said the same thing before the Trial Chamber

Page 23744












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Page 23745

1 here. I remember a meeting where representatives from Prijedor in a

2 debate, in a polemic - I even remember where they were seated during

3 that meeting - because it was an interesting threat that they had made, I

4 believed. The Prijedor representatives had a polemic, a debate, with the

5 representative of Banja Luka, but I do not remember this being discussed

6 in this specific form. I remember no ultimatum.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nicholls, please.


9 Q. That polemic you've just talked about, the one you talked about

10 yesterday, had to do with the camps in Prijedor?

11 A. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I remember a polemic between the

12 representatives of Prijedor and those of Banja Luka Municipality. This

13 was about camps or collection centres, and this had to do with Prijedor.

14 Q. Thank you. You've answered the question. Let me now have you

15 read paragraph 4, numbered paragraph 4 of this document.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one moment, Mr. Nicholls.

17 Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, on line 25 of page 11, it's reflected

19 "representatives of Prijedor." I believe based on what our case manager

20 tells us that he said "the presidents of Prijedor." And that of Banja

21 Luka.


23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: It said "representatives of Prijedor and the

24 president of Banja Luka Municipality."

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you say "presidents of Prijedor and Banja Luka

Page 23746

1 Municipality respectively" or "representatives of Prijedor and president

2 of Banja Luka Municipality"?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe I've said

4 this before. Representatives of Prijedor and the president of Banja Luka

5 Municipality. The representatives, as I said, were two or three, I

6 believe. They had different duties.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Is that to your satisfaction,

8 Mr. Cunningham?

9 Let's proceed, Mr. Nicholls. Thank you.


11 Q. Now, paragraph 4, read that to yourself, please. That's another

12 demand of the subregional group which states: "We demand that the 1st

13 Krajina Corps in Banja Luka, and particularly General Momir Talic of the

14 1st Krajina Corps, purge the 1st Krajina Corps of Muslims and Croats."

15 And it goes on and says that the deadline is for seven days.

16 A. I've read it.

17 Q. All right. Now, this is very easy, a very simple question.

18 Reading that, do you remember being at this particular -- at any crisis

19 staff meeting where this demand for the purge of Muslims and Croats from

20 the 1KK was discussed?

21 A. I don't remember that.

22 Q. All right. I'd like to give you P1582, please. I have it here.

23 I have virtually all of the documents in B/C/S today. I'm not going to

24 use too many.

25 This is a 9th of June 1KK report on the ARK Krajina Crisis Staff

Page 23747

1 decision. So, sir, it's two days after the document you just looked at.

2 And it states: "One of the issues that was discussed at yesterday's

3 session of the AR Bosnian Krajina Crisis Staff was the general personnel

4 policy in the 1KK."

5 The next paragraph, it states: "An ultimatum was issued

6 requesting removal of these persons from vital and command posts by 15

7 June 1992." And then it goes on to say: "We consider this demand to be

8 justified."

9 Just take a moment to review that document. I think you'll agree

10 with me that this is another example of the 1KK being briefed on

11 decisions made by the ARK Crisis Staff.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And again, you, as secretary of the secretariat for defence,

14 don't remember taking part in these discussions at all; is that right?

15 A. At this time, I was still the commander of the TO.

16 Q. I understand that. You were also in your position as regional

17 secretary.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Very quickly, if I can give you 1583. You can see, sir, that

20 this is a response from General Mladic. It has got the same reference

21 number, 488-3, 9th of June. The response is the same day saying that all

22 officers of Muslim -- officers of Muslim or Croatian nationality must be

23 sent on leave immediately. Now, you know, don't you, that in fact

24 ultimately, not right on this day but soon thereafter, officers of Muslim

25 and Croat nationality were purged from the 1KK; correct?

Page 23748

1 A. I'm not trying to deny that, but I do not know the exact date

2 when these officers were purged or who exactly was purged. I don't know

3 the date, whether it was on the same day or not. I can see this order by

4 Mladic, and it looks quite clear to me.

5 Q. I'm not asking you for the day; I just wanted your confirmation

6 that it in fact occurred, that these men of Muslim and Croat nationality

7 were, in fact, purged from the IKK ranks. Correct? Don't worry about

8 the exact day.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, this was something, the purging of the army of officers of

11 non-Serb ethnicity, was something which Mr. Brdjanin had been interested

12 in and advocated for quite some time; isn't that right? Do you

13 understand the question?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. Let me just ask you if remember if you attended the 16th assembly

16 session on the --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Just a moment, Mr. Nicholls. I'm finicky about

18 this. You asked two questions; isn't that right? And then you also

19 asked him do you understand the question and he said yes, yes. I don't

20 take it that the first yes is for the first question and the second is

21 for the second. I take it he is asking answering both questions , I take

22 it he is answering one of the questions, so I would like to know which.

23 MR. NICHOLLS: I didn't see it, Your Honour. I thought it had

24 been broken up, yes to both.

25 Q. Now, very quickly, this was something, the purging of the army of

Page 23749

1 officers of non-Serb ethnicity, was something which Mr. Brdjanin had been

2 interested in and advocated for quite some time; isn't that right? Could

3 you please answer that question.

4 A. I can't agree with that completely. Some people from the SDS did

5 have this position, and they were persistent in requesting that. I can't

6 be a hundred per cent certain or confirm this fully.

7 Q. I'm only asking you about Mr. Brdjanin at the moment. Let me see

8 if this helps you remember. You were at the 16th Assembly on the 12th of

9 May in Banja Luka. Do you remember Mr. Brdjanin's speech where he said,

10 amongst other things, "How can anyone still believe it is all right that

11 we have a Muslim teaching political classes in the Banja Luka Corps? I

12 do not think it is."

13 A. I don't think I understand your question.

14 Q. Do you remember -- you remember being at the 16th Assembly on the

15 12th of May sitting in the front row; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you remember Mr. Brdjanin saying the following during his

18 speech at that Assembly meeting: "How can anyone still believe it is all

19 right that we have a Muslim teaching political classes in the Banja Luka

20 Corps? I do not think that it is."?

21 A. Again, I'm afraid understand what the question. What is it that

22 you're asking me? Whether I listened to Brdjanin's contribution or -?-

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Whether you remember these words being said by

24 Mr. Brdjanin.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. As I said before, I did not

Page 23750

1 attend the whole meeting. I was there when General Mladic spoke, but I

2 was not there for the entire meeting. And I have no idea what Vjestica

3 said at the meeting or Brdjanin for that matter. I simply can't

4 remember.


6 Q. Right. Would you grant me that if the transcript and minutes of

7 the meeting are correct and that Mr. Brdjanin, in fact, made that

8 statement, that that would indicate that he was amongst the SDS

9 leadership which thought that Muslims and Croats should be pushed out of

10 the 1KK?

11 MR. NICHOLLS: Don't answer yet.

12 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object to the form of the question

13 because there's a difference between advocating the removal of someone

14 teaching political classes and what he is suggesting, the purging of the

15 entire officer ranks. So to the extent that the question is misleading,

16 I object.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection sustained. Could you rephrase your

18 question because I think there are other ways of putting the question to

19 the witness.


21 Q. Well, do you know who this person is being referred to? Who is

22 the Muslim who is teaching political classes in the Banja Luka Corps?

23 A. A teacher at the school, the school centre where officers were

24 being trained, one of the teachers there, the school centre, the training

25 centre. I think the chief of the centre was a Slovene, a Slovene

Page 23751

1 named --

2 Q. Let me stop you. You hear Mr. Brdjanin saying that Colonel

3 Hasotic should be replaced; correct?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, I think that's a misleading question

6 because even in his recitation of P50, there isn't any reference to a

7 specific person.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: We know who it is, so I think it's a fair

9 question.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: When you hear Mr. Brdjanin saying that Colonel

11 Hasotic should be removed, that isn't in P50.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not argue.

13 Do you remember Colonel Hasotic from the 1KK?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Was he a Muslim?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Was teaching included in his functions, teaching

18 political classes in the army? Are you aware of that?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did know Colonel Hasotic. He

20 worked in the operations department with Colonel Kelecevic, the chief of

21 staff. And as far as I could tell, they held him in high esteem as an

22 officer.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Was he eventually removed?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know why he was removed?

Page 23752

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I believe --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you remember anyone saying that he ought to be

3 removed?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that the president of the

5 regional SDS said something like that. That's the impression I have,

6 Mr. Vukic. That was the information I had, but I was never physically

7 present when someone actually said that he should or should not be

8 removed. It was just rumour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I won't go further than this,

10 Mr. Nicholls, and I don't know whether you should pursue the --

11 MR. NICHOLLS: If I can have one more question on this topic,

12 Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Please do.


15 Q. Let me read on a little bit and see if this helps you and helps

16 put Mr. Cunningham at ease. After Mr. Brdjanin said "I do not think it

17 is" speaking about this particular officer, he continued: "I know that

18 people will not like what I'm saying here, but I truly believe in what I

19 say. I am less of a chauvinist than many believe. I merely have a high

20 degree of national awareness, and I believe that in conditions of war,

21 once it is proclaimed, that the entire Serb economy all war planning, all

22 guarding of facilities must be put into the hands of Serbs." And then he

23 continues:

24 "You'll agree that is in line with the types of statements made

25 by members of the SDS who thought that the officer corps should be purged

Page 23753

1 of Muslims and Croats."

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Could you look at P227, please, 29th of May 1992.

4 Sir, this is just, again, much more on this reporting stuff.

5 Now, this is conclusion 23, for counsel, the 29th of May 1992 ARK Crisis

6 Staff meeting. "1, it has been decided that all Muslims and Croats who

7 so wish should be able to move out of the area of the Autonomous Region

8 of Krajina but on condition that Serbs living outside the Serbian

9 autonomous districts and regions are allowed to move into the territories

10 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Autonomous

11 Region of Krajina in this manner in exchange of population..." And it

12 goes on how this will be an organised resettlement of the population

13 under the "family for family" principle.

14 Now, again, if you remember, were you present at the 29th of May

15 ARK Crisis Staff meeting where this conclusion was adopted determining

16 how the population was going to be resettled?

17 A. I don't remember that I was present.

18 Q. I'd like to show you P380. Again, sir, similarly, this is a 1KK

19 report which reports on an ARK Crisis Staff conclusion. This is to the

20 command. It's the 1st of June 1992, and it's the report on the current

21 political and security situation.

22 The third paragraph states: "A portion of the Muslim and

23 Croatian population is moving out, and the region of Bosnian Krajina has

24 issued a decision to facilitate such departures, providing that the Serbs

25 from Central Bosnia and places with predominantly Muslim and Croatian

Page 23754

1 populations were also allowed to move out." This is the 1st of June.

2 That's reporting the 29th of May 1992 conclusion, isn't it? You can put

3 them right next to each other if you want. Have you found the section,

4 sir?

5 A. I've found a different document. I think I have a different

6 document here. "Information on the present political and security

7 situation." This is a dispatch that is -- that was submitted, I assume,

8 to the command of the Main Staff because the addressee is the Corps

9 Command. It was signed by the assistant commander for the area, but I

10 don't see any other document here.

11 Q. That's exactly what you should have. I want you to look at

12 paragraph 3. It starts: "In the Banja Luka region..." On the first

13 page, it's the third full paragraph. Sir, I don't think this should be

14 too complicated. What I want you to do is read the ARK conclusion

15 they're reporting on. You'll agree with me, won't you, that it's

16 referring to the 29th of May conclusion that we just read?

17 A. Your Honours, if I may, this information on the present political

18 and security situation, I see it as a report being sent by a subordinate

19 command to a superior command talking about all kinds of things. It

20 starts with enemy forces, and then continues to talk about the situation

21 in the zone of responsibility of its own corps. They're stating that

22 certain things are happening. I don't think this is a reference to any

23 conclusion or a conclusion being carried out. They are stating that some

24 of the Croats and Muslims are moving out, and that the ARK had adopted a

25 decision to make it possible for them and facilitate their moving out.

Page 23755

1 So that's the only potential reference to the crisis staff that I see in

2 this document, but in addition to that, there's nothing else.

3 Q. Exactly. And that's referring to the 29th of May conclusion that

4 we just looked at, isn't it, because they're discussing exactly the same

5 terms? Muslims and Croats are allowed to move out provided that Serbs

6 are allowed to move in. That's what both documents say, and they're two

7 days apart; right?

8 A. Yes. This is a complete dispatch, and this is taken out of

9 context. And I find it very difficult to comment on this simply because

10 this is about communication. This is a dispatch from a subordinate

11 command to its own superior command.

12 Q. Right. And try to concentrate on the questions because the

13 question was exactly what you said. This is a report being sent up of an

14 ARK Crisis Staff conclusion; right?

15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, I'm going to object the, and I understand

16 the Court's feeling when I make a speculation objection. But I think it

17 calls for speculation on his part. He's already tried to make the

18 connection and he says he can't.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: He has made the connection. He has answered the

20 question, but there's so much qualifier I just want to clear up the

21 transcript.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: He has answered the question in one respect, but he

23 hasn't actually addressed himself to the part of Mr. Nicholls' question

24 which refers to the ARK Crisis Staff decision. So it's not a question of

25 speculation; it's a question of whether he sees that in the document.

Page 23756












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Page 23757

1 Is this, to your knowledge and according to you, reporting on the

2 decision of the ARK Crisis Staff, on the relevant decision of the ARK

3 Crisis Staff?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only speculate as to whether

5 this relates to a decision by the crisis staff or not because it also

6 states "including the region of Bosanska Krajina" and the region of

7 Bosanska Krajina is not the same as the crisis staff.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

9 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: All right.

11 Q. I'll move on. I'm not going to let you get off this question

12 yet, though. You tell me the part that you don't understand. The ARK

13 Crisis Staff conclusion says it has been decided that all Muslims and

14 Croats who so wish to be able to move out of the area of the Autonomous

15 Region of Krajina on certain conditions. So the ARK has decided that

16 this will be allowed; correct? That's what the ARK Crisis Staff has

17 decided.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The report states: "A portion of the Muslims and Croatian

20 population is moving out and the region of Bosnian Krajina has issued a

21 decision to facilitate such departures." Correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The ARK Crisis Staff conclusion says that these people will be

24 allowed to move out provided that Serbs living outside the area are

25 allowed to move in; right?

Page 23758

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The report states that the decision to facilitate such departures

3 is taking place providing that the Serbs from Central Bosnia will also be

4 allowed to move; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. These are two days apart; correct?

7 A. This is the 1st of June--

8 Q. Well, several days apart.

9 A. -- and the other one is the 29th of May.

10 Q. Right.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, do you still think as wild speculation to think that in this

13 report they're talking about the ARK conclusion? ARK Crisis Staff

14 conclusion?

15 A. You're only looking at a section of the document here.

16 Q. That's right.

17 A. And this section is a --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Can the speakers please try to avoid overlaps.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we've heard enough on this, Mr. Nicholls.


21 Q. All right. Last question: I think the reason you don't want to

22 attribute to the ARK Crisis Staff and the reason don't want to answer

23 this very easy question is because the report also states those departing

24 would not be allowed to return. That was discussed in the ARK Crisis

25 Staff, and that wasn't printed because that was unprintable, awful thing

Page 23759

1 that nobody would want to have their name on; right? That's why you're

2 refusing to answer this question.

3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object to the form of the question

4 as being argumentative as well as being multifarious, compound question.

5 MR. NICHOLLS: It's a very simple question and I don't think it's

6 argumentative. I think that's why he's not answering the question. And

7 he's under oath, I'd like him to --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You are again arguing in the presence of the

9 witness, which I don't like. So because of that, let's take this

10 question bit by bit.

11 Mr. Nicholls is suggesting, Mr. Sajic, that you are actually

12 avoiding to answer the question. Do you agree to that, to start with?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to answer part by part.

14 It's not that I'm trying to avoid an answer. But the question itself I'm

15 not sure which capacity you're talking about. This is the corps command,

16 and the other thing is the crisis staff. They have their own systems of

17 reporting. And if I may, Your Honours, may I?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whoever wrote this report used

20 their own system of reporting, of writing up reports. They may as well

21 have omitted a number of different things here. They have enemy forces,

22 and the last thing is the situation in Gornji Vakuf, the last item. So

23 they just wrote whatever was necessary to write, and I don't think they

24 included everything that was in the decision of the crisis staff. I

25 don't know why it's not here. I have no idea.

Page 23760

1 I hope this answers your question.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I didn't put a question to you. It's

3 Mr. Nicholls who put the question. Perhaps you may go straight to the

4 point, Mr. Nicholls. You referred to one part, and we'll leave it at

5 that.


7 Q. We talked early on and you just restated it that it was important

8 in the military chain of command to have precise reports up and down the

9 chain, and you just explained what goes in is what is necessary; right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. General Talic sent a representative to ARK Crisis Staff meetings

12 when he did not attend. You've already stated that, and that's true.

13 Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. General Talic was the commander of the 1st Krajina Corps;

16 correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Colonel Vukelic was his subordinate; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. This is a report from Colonel Vukelic up the chain of command;

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. This report contains, amongst other things, a discussion, a

24 report, on a decision which it calls a decision of the region of Bosnian

25 Krajina; correct?

Page 23761

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. It states that as part of that decision, those departing will not

3 be allowed to return; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 Now, this is, simply put, the implementation -- sorry, let me go

7 back. Just one more question. I don't have the exact page reference,

8 but you'll agree with me that during the time the ARK Crisis Staff met,

9 the ARK Assembly was not meeting; correct? If you need to, we can dig it

10 out of your transcript.

11 A. I do not think so. I don't think it was correct.

12 Q. Right. So it was the ARK Crisis Staff that was issuing decisions

13 in the Krajina in June of 1992; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 Now, what's going on here, this decision, the fact that people

17 are going to be moved out, Bosnians and Croats, and not allowed to

18 return, is nothing more or less than implementation of the Krajina of

19 strategic goal number 1; isn't that right?

20 A. Well, the decision stands as you say. Well, whether this is

21 strategic objective number 1 for Krajina, I cannot say.

22 Q. Right. Let me go back again to the time that you were at the

23 16th assembly session on the 12th of May sitting in the front row. Were

24 you present when Krajisnik set forth the strategic goals of the Serbian

25 People?

Page 23762

1 A. I know that they were presented, those goals were presented. I

2 know that there was mention of those goals. I don't know what all the

3 goals were by heart. There were about six or seven, I think.

4 Q. All right. Let me refresh your memory. I'm reading from page 13

5 of P50. This is President Krajisnik speaking. "The Serbian side of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Presidency, the government, the Council for

7 national security which we have set up have formulated strategic

8 priorities, that is to say, the strategic goals for the Serbian People.

9 The first such goal is separation from the other two national

10 communities, the separation of states, separation from those who are our

11 enemies and who have used every opportunity, especially in this century,

12 to attack us and who would continue with such practices if we were to

13 continue to stay together in the same state."

14 That's strategic goal number 1. Do you remember hearing that

15 now?

16 A. I can accept that Mr. Krajisnik had said that, but I cannot

17 remember all of it. I can accept that this was a strategic goal. I'm

18 not denying that.

19 Q. Right. And strategic goal number 1 is separating the

20 nationalities, and he states that means not being in the same state;

21 right?

22 Well, don't need to -- you've already said that's what he said.

23 Given that that's strategic goal number 1, doesn't it make sense that the

24 decision in the Bosnian Krajina is that those Muslims and Croats who

25 leave are not going to be allowed to return? Because strategic goal

Page 23763

1 number 1 is not to be in the same state with Muslims and Croats; right?

2 A. May I make a comment on my answer.

3 Q. Please answer first --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's answer first, and then let's hear what

5 your comment is.

6 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Which question is he going to answer?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think there's only one question.

8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I think there's two right there unless I'm

9 reading the transcript wrong.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: The question is doesn't it make sense that the

11 decision in Bosnian Krajina that Muslims and Croats who leave are not

12 going to be allowed to return because strategic goal number 1 is not to

13 be in the same state as Muslims and Croats. This is the question.

14 In other words, you are being asked to confirm that the decision

15 of the ARK Crisis Staff that those who leave will not be allowed to

16 return fits in the first strategic point mentioned or outlined by

17 Krajisnik according to that report.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To leave room for those who will be

19 coming from elsewhere, the Serbs coming from other parts. In that sense,

20 yes.


22 Q. Right. In the sense that Bosnian Muslims and Croats who leave

23 will not be allowed to return, period, and you're saying the rationale

24 behind that is to allow Serbs to move in; right?

25 A. It is linked up in the text. In the statements, it is all linked

Page 23764

1 up. Yes.

2 Q. And that makes sense. This whole meeting is about the creation

3 of the Serb State, so it makes sense.

4 I want to talk to you now a little bit about something else you

5 talk about on direct examination, and that is the issue of the camps, the

6 Omarska camp. Now, you stated in your -- well, you talked about how

7 Radic was part of the delegation that went to the camps. And when he

8 came back from the visit to Omarska, he told you about how he felt and it

9 had made him feel bad.

10 A. You want me to answer that?

11 Q. Yeah, I'm just confirming.

12 A. Yes, yes, yes.

13 Q. All right. And that is something that you testified about on

14 your direct examination. You certainly talked about that with

15 Mr. Cunningham and the Defence team before you testified, didn't you, the

16 delegation visit to Omarska camp?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And I guess you told them as much as you could, as much as you

19 knew about that delegation visit, to the best of your memory; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, you know, was in that delegation that visited

22 Omarska; right? And you've --

23 A. Well, the statement I made that Brdjanin, Lukic, and Mr. Radic --

24 Radic did not speak of the composition of the delegation, but I think he

25 was in it. Yes.

Page 23765

1 Q. The transcript says Lukic. I think you were said it was

2 "Brdjanin, Vukic, Radic" who were in the delegation; is that right?

3 A. Vukic, Vukic.

4 Q. Right. Now, unlike Mr. Radic, Mr. Brdjanin never said to you

5 that he thought that camp was a horrible place, did he?

6 A. Mr. Radic told me of his impression of the camp. He didn't

7 say -- didn't say much about the organisation of the camp, the state it

8 was in. He spoke of the impression, and this I brought into relation

9 with his past. He said that they were singing Serb songs --

10 Q. Yes, he said they were singing Serb songs about Greater Serbia,

11 and he found that offensive.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Could I please ask you, Mr. Nicholls, to redirect

13 him to the question that you had asked him.


15 JUDGE AGIUS: Because the question was not to invite you to

16 repeat what Mr. Radic had told you, but whether Mr. Brdjanin -- it's

17 being suggested to you that Mr. Brdjanin never said anything to you that

18 he thought that Omarska was a horrible place.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: I was coming back to it, Your Honour, trying to be

20 a little more precise in my questions.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Please. I was just explaining that the

22 question had not been answered, pointing out.


24 Q. Mr. Radic also was offended by the prisoners having to give the

25 three-finger salute.

Page 23766

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Mr. Brdjanin never told you that the singing at the camp by the

3 prisoners made him feel bad, did he?

4 A. No.

5 Q. He never said anything that he saw in that camp made him feel

6 bad, did he?

7 A. We never talked about that.

8 Q. All right. That's what I mean. You never heard him say anything

9 along those lines.

10 And you also never heard him say anything like that, obviously,

11 in any ARK Crisis Staff meeting, did you?

12 A. I can't remember. I can't remember whether he said something or

13 not.

14 Q. And you certainly don't remember ever hearing him say anything in

15 the media about how bad Omarska camp was.

16 A. I can't remember that either.

17 Q. I'd like to show you P284. I've got it highlighted. This is the

18 Kozarski Vjesnik article of 17 July 1992, headline "Krajina

19 representatives in Prijedor." I want to direct your attention, sir, to

20 -- and it states, just for the record: "Representatives of the

21 Autonomous Region of Krajina, Radoslav Brdjanin, president of the war

22 crisis staff" and some others came to Prijedor. And in the part I've

23 highlighted for you, which is on page 2 of the English it, states:

24 "After they had made a tour of the combat areas and collection centres,

25 the visitors from Krajina thanked their hosts for their hospitality."

Page 23767

1 And then it has a quote from Mr. Brdjanin after having toured the

2 collection centre: "What we have seen in Prijedor is an example of a job

3 well done, and it's a pity that many in Banja Luka are not aware of it

4 yet, just as they're not aware of what might happen in Banja Luka in the

5 very near future. Due to the circumstances, there is a constantly

6 growing number of superfluous Muslims in Banja Luka who have fled the

7 surrounding municipalities and are already planning to join the jihad.

8 They are showing loyalty simply because they still constitute a

9 minority."

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps while we are at this, the witness might

11 give us his own interpretation or translation of the relevant word in the

12 B/C/S text, in the original text, whether he would translate it as

13 "superfluous" or I don't know.

14 What do you understand by the word which in English is being

15 given to us as "superfluous"? How do you understand that in your own

16 language? How is Mr. Brdjanin, according to that report, describing

17 those Muslims?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I haven't quite had

19 time to read through this. I was listening to you, and I had a look. If

20 I may just be allowed a minute or two just read through it.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Through the relevant section.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Please do, by all means. Read the whole paragraph

24 starting with "Radoslav Brdjanin said..." Read it to yourself.


Page 23768












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Page 23769

1 Q. Sir, if you have any problem because that text is too small. We

2 can do something about it. I don't know if that's why it's taking you a

3 while. Just let me know if you need us to blow that up or something.

4 A. I've just finished reading it.

5 Q. All right. Sorry to interrupt --

6 A. Thank you for your patience.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, no, that's no problem at all, Mr. Sajic.

8 Always ask me to take whatever time you need, and we'll grant you that.

9 Mr. Brdjanin according to this report says there's a constantly

10 growing number of what kind of Muslims? How is he describing those

11 Muslims in your own words?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What it says is a surplus. What

13 that means is that there is a certain percentage of Muslims already in

14 Banja Luka, increasing, which means that Muslims from other

15 municipalities, from the fringe areas, war-torn, fringe areas, and the

16 hostility between the Serbs and the Muslims, and then these Muslims are

17 moving out, which is only logical. People are moving out of war-torn

18 areas. They're trying to escape the war, the war operations. There is a

19 concentration of Muslims building up there, and that's what this word

20 surplus means.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: That makes it clearer.

22 Now, your question, Mr. -- and sorry for having interrupted you,

23 but this has always been a little bit curious.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Yeah.

25 Q. Now, you know as you sit there today that in 1992, Omarska was a

Page 23770

1 terrible place; right? You're not going to argue about that.

2 A. I knew a lot more after the war than I had known back in 1992. I

3 was never in Omarska myself, as I said.

4 Q. That's why I asked the question the way I did. You know as you

5 sit there today, Omarska in 1992 was a terrible place for the prisoners

6 held there.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And this is the only media report you've seen of Brdjanin's

9 comments. You've never seen this article before, I take it?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Brdjanin, having visited Omarska, saying

12 that Prijedor is an example of a job well done, that doesn't surprise

13 you, does it, given his other statements about how only about a thousand

14 Muslims should be allowed to remain in Banja Luka, and they would be old

15 and sweep the streets? It's perfectly consistent, isn't it?

16 A. I think the question is a bit unclear. The camp is one thing,

17 and sweeping the streets is a different thing altogether.

18 Q. Okay. I can leave it at that.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, if we're breaking in four minutes,

20 I'm going to move into one more area. I'd rather just take the break

21 early, and then --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more time do you have -- do you require,

23 Mr. Nicholls?

24 MR. NICHOLLS: I hate to say because some questions are taking a

25 long time. About half an hour, I guess, or less, unless things get

Page 23771

1 slowed down.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

3 Can I suggest a limited break of 20 minutes. Would that be

4 acceptable with the interpreters and the rest of the crew? Okay.

5 So we'll have -- and with you, Mr. Ackerman, Mr. Cunningham, and

6 Ms. Korner? Mr. Nicholls, I take it, you accept a 20-minute break.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Chuqing, you don't dare say no.

9 So we'll have a 20-minute break now. Thank you.

10 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

13 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, first, I'm sorry. The strategic

14 goals's quote which I read from P50, that was Radovan Karadzic, not

15 Krajisnik, who made that quote.

16 Q. All right, sir. I want to ask you just a little bit now about

17 the TO in Banja Luka. You told us yesterday - I don't remember, I'm

18 sorry - what was the years you were TO commander for Banja Luka

19 Municipality? I think it was through the 1980s, wasn't it?

20 A. In the municipal staff, 1981, and commander since March 1990.

21 Q. Okay. And you went through it - we don't spend a lot of time on

22 it - with Mr. Cunningham. The TO was a parallel structure which along

23 with the JNA in the former Yugoslavia was part of the All People's

24 Defence.

25 A. The armed forces, yes.

Page 23772

1 Q. Yeah. And the idea was really, and you correct me if I'm wrong,

2 that under Tito in Yugoslavia, every square inch of the territory could

3 be defended, in theory at least; that's why you had TO companies. Even

4 down to factories had their own TO companies.

5 A. It was -- yes, actually it was every centimetre of territory.

6 Q. All right. Now, in your interview with us - if you want to look

7 at it, you can; otherwise, see if I have this right - the Banja Luka TO

8 comprised about ten companies.

9 A. Well, the TO had departments, squads, companies. Some companies

10 had two or three companies, Cajevac, for instance. So the bigger

11 companies had a larger number of units, of squads.

12 Q. Okay. Well, how many men total could be called up during a TO

13 mobilisation in Banja Luka? I had the impression it was something like

14 600 to 800 men.

15 A. Far more.

16 Q. Well, tell me, then, just, say, in 1991 how many men, if you'd

17 had to call up the entire municipal TO, could you have called up?

18 A. There were two district staffs. The municipality was divided up

19 into four parts. Some parts had a smaller population; some had a smaller

20 number of companies, of enterprises. Some were more of a rural nature.

21 The most populated were the enter of the town in terms of number of

22 companies and population, and the number was the largest there. I cannot

23 tell you the exact figures.

24 Q. Okay, that's fine, just something over 800 men. That's correct,

25 isn't it?

Page 23773

1 A. Yes. More, more. More than 800 men.

2 Q. All right. Now, I want to talk about April 1992 when suddenly

3 there appeared men in Banja Luka who were blocking the entrance to the

4 city. I'm talking about the SOS blockades. You remember that event,

5 don't you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, did you know in advance, before that blockade occurred, that

8 it was going to take place on the 3rd of April?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You looked like you had to think about that for a moment. Are

11 you sure?

12 A. There were some hints that there was some discontent amongst the

13 soldiers from the battlefields. With the situation in the town, it

14 really existed. But who would report on this, who would make the

15 announcement, I don't know.

16 Q. Let me try to be a little clear in my questions. The SOS in

17 general terms was made up of criminals.

18 A. There appeared from time to time people who were criminals, but I

19 cannot confirm that this was a group of criminals.

20 Q. You do not believe that the men, the SOS men, who blockaded

21 Banja Luka on April 3rd were criminals? To be sure we're talking about

22 the same people.

23 A. I don't believe all of them were criminals.

24 Q. All right. What percentage do you think were criminals?

25 A. Well, we would have to make a list of those who were criminals

Page 23774

1 and those who weren't. What we judged to be bad was the fact that this

2 was done by people who had a suspicious past.

3 Q. All right. Well, you know something about the SOS because you

4 were able to give your assessment that some of them were criminals and

5 some of them weren't. Right? So you know something about who was in the

6 SOS.

7 A. I'm talking about -- with reference to the comments afterwards.

8 The list of the criminals that you're alluding to, of suspicious people

9 or the list of people who took part in the SOS, I never saw such a list.

10 I don't know who these people were. My impression was that they tended

11 to appear when there were riots or an unstable state of affairs. And

12 they would appear. And this was my assessment.

13 Q. All right. You keep talking about other times. Let's confine

14 ourselves for this conversation to the 3rd of April 1992. Okay?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you think that the men who blockaded the town of Banja Luka on

17 the 3rd of April were honourable, good men?

18 A. There were honourable, good men. I suppose there were some.

19 There was a larger group of people. I cannot single out who was who. I

20 cannot answer that question. There were people who were honourable, and

21 there were others as well. I can't give you a precise answer. I can

22 just say I don't know.

23 Q. Name some of the people, if you can, for me who you knew were in

24 the SOS. I assume you knew some of these people since you know there

25 were some good people in the SOS and you know that there were some bad

Page 23775

1 people.

2 A. I heard about someone called Goran, who would remove earrings in

3 a bus where people were travelling. He would remove gold from people.

4 He was prone to crime. But I cannot really invent names. I didn't have

5 the names -- their names.

6 Q. All right. Now, you also know, don't you, that a little later on

7 after April, a lot of the members of the SOS became members of the Banja

8 Luka CSB special unit? Right?

9 A. Well, the Banja Luka CSB was in a teaching centre, and I don't

10 know the people from there. I have to be more restricted in what I am

11 saying. I can say what I know and what I do not know. I don't know

12 their names.

13 Q. Listen. Try to listen to my questions and answer them if you

14 can. I didn't ask you where the Banja Luka CSB was, and I didn't ask you

15 anybody's name. I asked -- if you don't know, say you don't know, if you

16 don't remember, say you don't remember. If you don't know the answer,

17 say you don't know the answer. Members of the SOS became part of the

18 Banja Luka CSB special unit. Is that right? Do you know?

19 A. I do not know.

20 Q. Okay. Now, you said there were hints that this might occur,

21 something along these lines. More precisely, did you have any notice of

22 any plan to blockade Banja Luka in early April?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So when you woke up on the 3rd of April, you had no idea what had

25 gone on and what was going on in the city?

Page 23776

1 A. I learned about this when I got up in the morning.

2 Q. How did you learn about it?

3 A. When I got up, when I went to my office, I saw that there was a

4 blockade, and that before the municipality building there were people who

5 refused people to come anywhere near the building.

6 Q. How many SOS men did you see personally that day?

7 A. Well, remember, I was in my office that day. I wasn't in town.

8 Q. You're not answering my question. I didn't ask you where you

9 were. I thought you said that there was a blockade, and there were

10 people who refused people to come anywhere near the building. I thought

11 you were talking about something you had seen.

12 A. I saw about ten people.

13 Q. Did you see -- you saw those ten people. You saw ten members of

14 the SOS. Let's try to be precise.

15 A. Yes, exactly ten.

16 Q. All right. You heard during the course of that day that these

17 weren't the only ten members of the SOS, but that other areas of Banja

18 Luka had been blockaded similarly. Right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And when you got to your office -- you know it's not every day

21 you go to your office and there's a blockade. What did you do when you

22 got to your office? Who did you call to talk about these paramilitary

23 blockades?

24 A. I talked to the president of the municipality, and I said there

25 was a blockade. And he told me that he had learned about it in the early

Page 23777

1 morning hours, and then he asked for a meeting between us.

2 Q. Between whom? Just you and Mr. Radic, or anybody else?

3 Mr. Zupljanin there?

4 A. I can't remember. Radic and I were there for sure, and I can't

5 remember about Zupljanin, whether it was Zupljanin or Tutus, I cannot

6 remember. I cannot be certain.

7 Q. The transcript didn't catch it, but I think you said Tutus;

8 correct?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's what I heard.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: Because I want to...

11 Q. Now, where did this meeting take place?

12 A. The first floor in the municipality building.

13 Q. Was that in Radic's office?

14 A. Radic had two offices. There was one, his office, and then an

15 accessory room, and I think it took place in that other room.

16 Q. And did Mr. Radic tell you who was behind this SOS blockade? Had

17 he found out at that point?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What did the two of you decide to do?

20 A. I think that we established contact with the police, that this

21 was the first step we took. I think it was like that.

22 Q. All right. Now, at this point in the morning, at this meeting,

23 you don't know who these SOS members are yet, do you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Didn't it occur to you as TO commander charged with protecting

Page 23778

1 the city and the Municipality of Banja Luka, that this was something sort

2 of urgent? Armed men -- unknown armed men setting up blockades all

3 around the city?

4 A. At the time, my function was not to be commander of the town and

5 not keeping law and order in the town. That was not my job. That was

6 not the duty of the TO units. It was the police, the civilian police who

7 was in charge of such matters. And perhaps my concern was not so great.

8 Q. Right. So, say, in 1986, if you'd gotten up one morning, walked

9 into town and discovered that a foreign, occupying power had dropped in

10 troops -- Russia, America, Germany, whoever -- and they were setting up

11 checkpoints, they were armed, you would kind of casually say "this is a

12 police matter, this is outside my jurisdiction. I'm only TO commander

13 with 800 men under me." Is that what you're telling me?

14 A. Yes, I didn't have mobilised people at the time. TO is a reserve

15 thing. It is not something that existed all the time. It was only the

16 more limited part of the staff that was in operation. It is not an

17 active unit that is in operation the whole day. It was not my duty in

18 that sense, and that is the sense that I understand your question.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That sounds reasonable, Mr. Nicholls. Why don't

20 you move straight to what was discussed during that high-level meeting

21 that was convened by Mr. Radic.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: That's where I was -- yes, Your Honour.

23 Q. At this meeting where you're discussing armed men, you don't know

24 who they are, around the town setting up blockades. It didn't occur to

25 you that maybe the TO ought to be mobilised to deal with this threat,

Page 23779

1 since you had over 800 men at your disposal that you could call up?

2 A. No, it didn't occur to me. Well, the superior commander does

3 this. It cannot mobilise at its will. I don't know what I would achieve

4 by mobilising, because it was the city. Or I don't understand the

5 question. Perhaps you should be more specific.

6 Q. I think it was a pretty easy question, which was whether it

7 occurred to you it might be a good idea to have a TO mobilisation when

8 unknown men had set up armed checkpoints all over the city. But I think

9 you've answered that it didn't occur to you; is that right?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what he said.

11 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm just trying to make sure he understood my

12 question.

13 Q. Your view was, Well, this is a problem for Zupljanin or Tutus?

14 A. Yes. And the military police, if they were in uniform.

15 Q. Well, did you call General Talic or your immediate superior or

16 anybody else and say: "Listen, I think you ought to know about this.

17 There were unknown men setting up blockades all over Banja Luka. I've

18 seen them myself. I don't know who they are." Did you make that call?

19 A. I don't think so.

20 Q. No. It sounds like you weren't particularly alarmed by this; is

21 that right?

22 A. Quite the contrary.

23 Q. You mean you were very alarmed. You took this very seriously.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You saw -- you just figured you would wait and see what the

Page 23780












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13 English transcripts.













Page 23781

1 police did about it? Or the military police?

2 A. I was waiting for the meeting, for something to be resolved at

3 the meeting. I do not have my police forces. I did not have my own

4 forces. I couldn't deal with this with my forces.

5 Q. All right. Let me just ask you this: If Banja Luka had been

6 invaded by a foreign group or army who set up checkpoints, wouldn't that

7 be something within the competence of the Banja Luka TO? That wouldn't

8 be a police matter, would it?

9 A. I can't answer the question for the simple reason that in Banja

10 Luka, you had the corps command which was the highest command, and the

11 garrison command which was responsible for the entire situation within

12 the garrison. It would have been the same as if, for example, a squad

13 commander had been responsible for the command of the corps because you

14 had two levels of command above me in Banja Luka. And those were the

15 commands responsible for reacting to the situation. My level of

16 responsibility in the sense of using the units was far lower to the level

17 of responsibility of the corps command because they had barracks around

18 Banja Luka.

19 Q. Okay. So this would have been something that the 1KK as well had

20 competence to deal with; right? You're saying it was the corps command

21 that should have taken care of this.

22 A. Of course. Yes.

23 Q. General Talic didn't send in a single soldier to confront the

24 SOS, did he? He didn't do anything about it, did he?

25 A. No.

Page 23782

1 Q. Okay. I'd like to show you P137. I've got a highlighted copy.

2 This is a Glas article, Saturday the 4th of April, the day after the SOS

3 blockade. It starts saying, and I think I've put the number 1 next to

4 the section, sir, if that helps you. It should be highlighted, but also

5 have a little number 1 next to it. It's the lead story.

6 "Banja Luka, 3 April. Since this morning, the city of Banja Luka

7 that be blocked. Members of the SOS had seized all key intersections in

8 the city and control the Municipal Assembly building, Radio Banja Luka,

9 the Jugo bank building, the Banjalucka Banka, all bridges, and generally

10 all the important strategic positions in the city.

11 "Members of the SOS reservists in the JNA, armed civilians, and

12 as we have heard, men arriving from the Western Slavonia war zone have

13 presented their terms insisting that Predrag Radic form a municipal

14 crisis staff to carry these out."

15 Have you found the part I'm reading from?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In fact, this crisis staff was formed, wasn't it?

18 A. No.

19 Q. We'll come back to that.

20 A. Here it says "in order to set up..."

21 Q. I'm not talking about what it says there. I'm saying, in fact, a

22 crisis staff was set up in order to deal with the demands of the SOS.

23 Go from your memory. You don't need to read it.

24 Let me help you. There's a highlighted portion. I don't know

25 exactly where it is. It's in a box on there. It says "crisis staff."

Page 23783

1 See if you can find that part. If the usher gives it back to me, I can

2 point you to it. That's quite small print.

3 It says: "Crisis staff. In Banja Luka, after the blockade of

4 the city and presentation of their demands by the Serbian liberation

5 forces - that may be a typo because everything else we're talking about

6 the Serbian Defence forces, SOS - a crisis staff was formed whose

7 president is Predrag Radic."

8 And it also states that Stojan Zupljanin is on that staff. Have

9 you found that section, sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You were on that crisis staff.

12 A. I think it was founded on that day.

13 Q. You were on that crisis staff.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Let's go back to the section I was looking at before with you.

16 Now, let's go back to where we were.

17 Going on from how these men are arrived from the Western

18 Slavonian war zone, have presented their terms, insisting the Predrag

19 Radic form a municipal crisis staff to carry these out. And this was

20 done, and after several hours of negotiation between representatives of

21 the SOS on the one side and members of the crisis staff, the Territorial

22 Defence, the JNA's Banja Luka Corps, and from the institutions of the

23 lawful authorities in Banja Luka, all the demands were later accepted,

24 true, in a slightly modified form."

25 That's what happened, isn't it?

Page 23784

1 A. This is a text from a magazine. May I comment, please.

2 Q. Yes, you may. But first, I'd like you to answer the question.

3 That's what it says here happened. Crisis staff was formed. There were

4 several hours of negotiations with the SOS. SOS demands were accepted.

5 Is that correct or incorrect?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that correct or incorrect? It's correct? Is that what you

8 mean?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, if you want to make a comment, I'm sure His Honour will --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Just go ahead. And commenting, please, do give us

12 some information on what kind of negotiations took place between the SOS

13 and the Territorial Defence for which you were responsible.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The article here states on the one

15 hand members of the crisis staff and the TO, this is a reference to the

16 staff, not the TO. There was no TO crisis staff. The crisis staff had

17 been appointed, which is in the second part; namely, the composition of

18 the crisis staff as given here.

19 That's when it was set up. When they arrived in the office of

20 the president of the municipality, that's when the crisis staff was

21 convened and set up. They insisted on it. I'll give you an example.

22 The president of the executive council of Banja Luka Municipality, he,

23 for example, was not allowed in, and that's he was not a member of the

24 crisis staff.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It's pretty much confusing, in my view.

Page 23785

1 Were you present, yourself, as head of the TO during any of the

2 negotiations which, according to this report, took place between

3 representatives of the SOS and others, including the Territorial Defence?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: You were. Who else was present during those

6 negotiations?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, precisely the people

8 indicated here. On behalf of the police, these people here.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And why would the Territorial Defence

10 be part of these negotiations if the head of the Territorial Defence did

11 not consider his role or the role of the Territorial Defence relevant to

12 the situation that arose at the time?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, because the president of the

14 municipality had called the commander of the TO in, and the assistant as

15 well as the chief of the public security centre. And some other people,

16 the chief of the police station or whatever it was called, Tutus, and

17 some other people from the municipality who he believed he needed to

18 call. I was not the one who convened the meeting, and I was not the one

19 who decided who the people present would be.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically, although you personally believed that

21 the Territorial Defence had -- did not fit in this whole scenario,

22 whoever called the meeting did not feel that way. He thought that the

23 Territorial Defence ought to be part of the negotiations or to take part

24 in the negotiations.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't know what the person

Page 23786

1 believed. But this is not a scenario. I sat there together with

2 President Radic in the same office, on the same side.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay. Yes, Mr. Nicholls.


5 Q. Let's just run through quickly who was on this crisis staff. Not

6 necessarily all of them, but some of the people. And you can look at the

7 magazine if it helps you remember.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we see it. Can we have it back on the ELMO,

9 please, usher. Sorry to trouble you like this. It's on the third page,

10 I think, or something like that. That's it.

11 MR. NICHOLLS: That's correct, Your Honour. Page 3.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We have it on the ELMO, Mr. Nicholls.

13 MR. NICHOLLS: All right.

14 Q. We have Predrag Radic. You've already stated that; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Dr. Vukic.

17 A. I can't see that. Yes.

18 Q. Yes, he was on this crisis staff which was formed that day.

19 That's what you're saying? I just want to be clear of your answer.

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. So was Stojan Zupljanin.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Yourself.

24 A. The name, I didn't hear the name.

25 Q. You were on it as well. You've already stated that.

Page 23787

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Nenad Stevandic.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Jovo Rosic.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Milan Puvacic.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All the men I've just read out to you were also about a month

11 later on the ARK Crisis Staff; isn't that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, the city's blockaded by unknown armed men surprisingly. And

14 quickly in the morning, this crisis staff is set up with these people,

15 representatives of the TO, civilian leadership, and police leadership;

16 right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Negotiations are held with the SOS representatives.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who represented the SOS in these negotiations?

21 A. I believe there was a bearded man, Milankovic, Milinkovic. Not

22 sure about the name.

23 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go into private session for one second.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar. Could we go in private

25 session, please.

Page 23788

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

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15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 23789












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Page 23807

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go ahead, Mr. Cunningham.


16 Q. In that binder that is in front of you right now is a copy of

17 your statement to the Prosecution in your native language. And I have

18 tabbed -- there are three pages that I have tabbed in there. And I want

19 you to look at a tab that says "55." When you go to tab 55, it won't

20 take you to page 55 in your language, but it will take us to page 55 in

21 the English. And I'm going to -- and there should be a bracketed portion

22 there.

23 Yesterday, when you were questioned by Mr. Nicholls, he asked you

24 about a portion of this page where he asks you whether it was true that

25 Mr. Brdjanin presided over meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff. And as you

Page 23808

1 did in your statement, you answered him with a "yes" answer here.

2 Now, if we were look down to the passage right after that, which

3 is in that -- it should be bracketed on that page that you have in front

4 of you -- you were asked this question, reading from the transcript at

5 page 55: "And isn't it true -- isn't it also true that the crisis staff

6 meetings could not start unless Radoslav Brdjanin was present in the

7 0011

8 room?"

9 I want you to read your answer to yourself and then explain what

10 you meant by that. Because in the transcript you said: "I am sorry that

11 I'm laughing." What were you laughing at? Do you have any recollection?

12 A. I can't remember why I was laughing. But my answer was

13 affirmative.

14 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next topic. The next topic deals with

15 Prosecution Exhibit 167, which is -- I think there's a corrected version

16 of at P182. But this is your order of 4 May 1992 having to deal with,

17 one, mobilisation, and two, disarmament. In the course of your -- in the

18 course of your testimony -- it should be marked 167 if he needs to look

19 at it.

20 In the course of your testimony yesterday, you were talking about

21 a specific example about disarmament. That involved a Muslim colleague

22 of yours that was -- had a rifle that was provided to him and that weapon

23 was confiscated. My question to you, first of all, is do you remember

24 that testimony from yesterday?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23809

1 Q. And do you remember who took the weapon away from your Muslim or

2 Bosniak colleague?

3 A. One of the police officers, the reserve police officers. Someone

4 from the police. I'm not sure if active-duty or a reserve police

5 officer, but it was a police officer.

6 Q. And do you remember whether --

7 A. According to what he told me, according to what he told me.

8 Q. "He" being your Muslim colleague; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, when your Muslim colleague told you about the officer who

11 took his gun away from him, did he also give you any other information

12 about this officer, specifically whether or not they had any prior

13 meetings?

14 A. He complained. I'll try to make this as short as possible. He

15 complained about this happening to him and apologised to me because he

16 had mentioned my name. And he told me that it was one of the police

17 officers whom he had punished some time ago because this colleague of

18 mine once worked with the SUP. He was the assistant chief or something

19 like that. And that was apparently the reason in his understanding.

20 Q. Okay. I'm done with that exhibit.

21 I want to talk to you about Predrag Radic, his statements to you

22 which indicated that he was upset and distressed by what he saw in

23 Omarska. You've told us that you did not speak to Mr. Brdjanin about

24 this. But let me ask you this: Based on what you know about

25 Mr. Brdjanin, do you know whether he would agree or disagree with the

Page 23810

1 sentiments that Mr. Radic expressed?

2 A. I suppose he would have agreed.

3 Q. Okay. Another area that I want to talk to you about that was

4 discussed yesterday at page 86 of the LiveNote. You were asked certain

5 questions about the relationship between the Kljuc Municipal Crisis Staff

6 and the ARK Crisis Staff. My question to you, first of all, is do you

7 remember talking about the Kljuc Crisis Staff yesterday?

8 A. I do.

9 Q. Who do you think would be in a better position to determine the

10 relationship between the Kljuc Municipal Crisis Staff and the ARK Crisis

11 Staff? You or a member of the Kljuc Crisis Staff?

12 A. A member of the Kljuc Crisis Staff.

13 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, I have one question I forgot, and I'd

14 like to go back into private session.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go back to private session for a while,

16 please.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

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Page 23811












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Page 23812












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Page 23813

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Sajic, we have some questions for you from

14 the Bench. Judge Janu from the Czech Republic is going first.

15 JUDGE JANU: Mr. Sajic, can you tell me how long do you know

16 Mr. Brdjanin?

17 A. Since 1991 or 1992. Not long. I didn't know him before.

18 JUDGE JANU: In your statement, and I will read it to you, you

19 said: "As far as my personal opinion of Mr. Brdjanin, I believe that he

20 was a very hard-working and educated man, but he enjoyed power and wanted

21 to assert himself. He enjoyed appearing in the media and in newspaper

22 and on television and the radio, in order to leave the impression that he

23 had more authority than was really the case."

24 When you were cross-examined, you were shown the Exhibit P284.

25 You don't need it. It was Kozarski Vjesnik, article from 17 of July

Page 23814

1 1992. And in this article, and you spent quite a time reading it,

2 Mr. Brdjanin said something like this. "What we have seen in Prijedor is

3 an example of a good -- of a job well done." And he carry on something

4 like that, in Banja Luka, you are not aware of it yet, and like this.

5 Can you tell me, if you know Mr. Brdjanin well, what he meant by

6 this?

7 A. I can't say what he meant when he said that. But I simply read

8 the article, and I gave my statements. I said in the statement what I

9 thought about him. I know that he was often running about and that his

10 words actually spoke louder than his actions. I can't tell you what he

11 thought, what he meant by saying that.

12 JUDGE JANU: What could you see, what could have been seen in

13 Prijedor on 17 July 1992, what Mr. Brdjanin marked as a "well-done job,

14 which can serve as an example for Banja Luka"? You were present at that

15 time. You were living in the same area, so...

16 A. In all truthfulness, I was never in any of those camps or

17 centres, and the only impression I obtained on that was from my

18 conversations with Radic. If the conditions in the camp were described

19 as normal, then they were normal; if they were bad, then they were bad.

20 I can't give you a specific answer. Or maybe if you'd care to clarify

21 the question. I don't know what he meant by comparing those two

22 elements. If he meant that the same thing should happen in Banja Luka,

23 then that was insane, because there was no way that kind of thing could

24 happen in Banja Luka, or at least that's my opinion.

25 JUDGE JANU: I cannot clarify it more. I would just cite from

Page 23815

1 the article, and I wanted your reaction. So if you cannot react, it's

2 all right with me.

3 And there was a second part, the same -- the same article as --

4 which said something like this: "There is a growing number of surplus

5 Muslims in Banja Luka who have fled from the surrounding municipalities,

6 and they are already planning to join the jihad." You were at that time

7 commander of TO. Can you tell me, was there any base for such a

8 pronouncement?

9 A. This is a statement dated the 17th of July, if that's the

10 statement you're talking about. I was not in that position at the time.

11 As for a jihad in Banja Luka, my feeling was that this could simply not

12 happen in Banja Luka. If he believed there were too many Muslims around,

13 well that's his own personal thing. That's certainly not a position that

14 I share. I hope I've made myself clear enough.

15 JUDGE JANU: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Your

16 perception wasn't the same as Mr. Brdjanin?

17 A. No.

18 JUDGE JANU: Thank you. That's all. Thank you.

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt. There was

20 a portion that was not translated, with respect to page 74, line 20.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

22 Yes.

23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: What the witness said was "that his tongue was

24 faster than his brain," and what got translated was "that his words

25 actually spoke louder than his actions."

Page 23816












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Page 23817

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Sajic, you just heard Mr. Cunningham.

2 When you were answering previous questions a minute ago, did you say that

3 his tongue was faster than his brain, or that his words spoke louder than

4 his actions?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tongue longer than brains.


7 JUDGE Taya, you don't have any questions? Judge Taya doesn't

8 have any questions, and I don't have any questions either, which

9 basically means that your testimony comes to an end here.

10 Before the usher escorts you out of the courtroom, it is my duty

11 as Presiding Judge in this trial, on my own behalf, on behalf of Judge

12 Janu and Taya, Judges Janu and Taya, and on behalf of the Tribunal in

13 general, to thank you for having come to give testimony in this trial.

14 You will, as I told you, be accompanied by the usher out of this

15 courtroom, and you will be attended to so that you can return to your

16 country of residence as soon as possible. Once more, thank you, and we

17 wish you a safe journey back home.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, are you still fresh enough to start and finish

21 a quick Status Conference? I don't want to impose on anyone.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, well, I would be grateful if we could

23 postpone it, but it depends really how much is involved. Your Honour has

24 given us the dates. You've had Mr. Ackerman's list of witnesses, which

25 is considerably shortened.

Page 23818


2 MS. KORNER: The only thing that we note about it is there's a

3 gap at the moment of two weeks, between the 26th of January and the 9th

4 of February. But I understand that's because Mr. Shoup won't be able to

5 get his report.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That, I understand, is one of the problems.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the other thing -- the only thing I was

8 going to ask is that we would like to have his report at the latest by

9 Monday, the 26th of January. That's only giving us two weeks, and in

10 fact that's less than the Rules say.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's less than the 30 days, yes.

12 MS. KORNER: We'll live with two weeks, provided that's a

13 guarantee.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't have the email with me from

15 Professor Shoup, but in my head I think January 15th is the date that

16 he's supposed to have the report to me. So I think the 26th is easy to

17 do. And I'll, of course, give it to them as soon as I get it.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I think January 15th was the date it was supposed

20 to be done.


22 MR. ACKERMAN: And as far as any other matters we need to take up

23 on the Status Conference, I think just kind of piecemeal over the last

24 two or three days we have basically dealt with all of them.


Page 23819

1 MR. ACKERMAN: There's really not much left to deal with.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

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Page 23820

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you all.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, may I just say on this witness list

3 that I've given everybody today that numbers 14, 45, and 11 I would

4 characterise as soft.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: 14 --

6 MR. ACKERMAN: -- 45, and 11.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: 45, 11.

8 (redacted)

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Page 23821

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20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I ask --

21 [The Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the only other matter, apart from

23 whether or not the document becomes an exhibit --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: This --

25 MS. KORNER: -- can be dealt with tomorrow as well -- is could we

Page 23823

1 have a decision from Your Honours on the question of joint criminal

2 enterprise, the third category, as to whether in light of the appeal all

3 parties should treat it as though it's still a live issue in this case.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: We consider -- shall we come back to you tomorrow

5 morning?

6 MS. KORNER: That's what I mean. Yes. Sorry, Your Honour, I'm

7 just asking that --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll come back to you tomorrow

9 morning.

10 Mr. Roberts, tomorrow morning we'll try and meet a little bit

11 before we start the sitting, say, 15 minutes before, and then conclude

12 all the remaining matters.

13 Do you have the last three pages?

14 THE REGISTRAR: I'm printing them.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a very silent printer.

16 Let's go into private session for the time being, please.

17 [Private session]

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24 [Open session]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. If you give me those

Page 23825

1 documents, I will have them signed, Madam Registrar. And we can call it

2 a day.

3 Now, we start -- this starts page 78, and I'm missing page 79

4 completely.

5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record, we are redacting from page

7 78 line 6, right through and including page 80 line 23. All right.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think it would be real helpful if

9 you would read the last line that's being redacted because of the way the

10 page numbers are not lining up.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me see the last line.

12 Let's go into private session, please.

13 [Private session]

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25 [Open session]

Page 23827

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think we have concluded our business for

2 today. I thank you all, including the interpreters and the technicians.

3 I had a list of everyone that is helping us, and it's impressive how many

4 people are behind the glasses, the glass panes that we have. I thank you

5 all. Have a nice evening, and we'll meet again tomorrow morning. Thank

6 you.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.37 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of

9 December, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.