Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24732

1 Thursday, 12 February 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Madam Registrar, could you call the

6 case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-99-36-T, The Prosecutor versus

8 Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you.

10 Can you follow in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Yes,

12 I can follow in a language I understand.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Appearances for the Prosecution.

14 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Ann Sutherland, and Denise Gustin.

15 Good afternoon, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, and good afternoon to you.

17 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman

19 with David Cunningham and Aleksandar Vujic.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And good afternoon to you, too.

21 So Ms. Dresden is not here today.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: She is in class, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Are there any preliminaries? I see none. So usher,

24 you can bring the witness in, please.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 24733

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We are proceeding with the -- with our questions,

4 and we'll hope to finish with your testimony as early as possible today.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Questioned by the Court: [Continued]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: In your entry, diary entry of April 9, 1992, you put

9 at the same level, you compare Glas with Goebbels' Volkischer Beobachter.

10 Now, how familiar were you at the time with Goebbels' Volkischer

11 Beobachter?

12 A. I think I knew a great deal because I was interested in the topic.

13 I've read a lot about the Third Reich, and I know quite a lot about it. I

14 know what the Beobachter served ultimately. I am fully aware of what I

15 said and of the comparison I made. Thanks to you, and thank you for

16 having told me what your questions would be, I've reviewed my entries and

17 highlighted some of them. Glas was a racist paper, and I claim this with

18 responsibility. I can give you an illustration if you allow me, just two

19 or three sentences.

20 On the --

21 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour, I don't know whether you can see,

22 but the witness has actually got a separate book with him.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know.

24 MS. KORNER: Exactly. So if he can just identify where he's

25 reading from.

Page 24734

1 JUDGE AGIUS: What are you reading from? I can't see from here.

2 Thanks for pointing that out, Ms. Korner.

3 A. These are some annotations I make about things that I'm interested

4 in, and this is a private notebook that I brought with me, but it relates

5 to the period that you are questioning me about. And I will tell you what

6 it is about, if you will allow me.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, what is it about?

8 A. This concerns the topic of racism.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's -- one moment. I'm going to stop you for a

11 while. What notebook is this? When did you write this notebook? I mean

12 when did you write these notes?

13 A. These notes were made a long time ago. This is a transcript from

14 Glas of 2nd June 1992. Since I knew what you were going to ask me, I

15 looked up this particular entry to serve as an illustration of what I've

16 said, that this was a racist paper like Beobachter. So I just wanted to

17 illustrate this in two sentences, and I will not be using this notebook

18 afterwards.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have any objections, Mr. Ackerman?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I really want to know what that is,

21 Your Honour. I mean, that's something new that's now apparently in

22 addition to his diary that he --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. I mean, you didn't --

24 MR. ACKERMAN: We could have gone all day without this coming into

25 Court.

Page 24735

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You didn't need to say it because I was

2 anticipating.

3 Forget the notebook, because otherwise we will get into an

4 alley --

5 A. Agreed.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So you know what's in that notebook in any case.

7 Tell us from your memory without referring to the notebook because we will

8 ask you for it, it will involve us into translations and this and that.

9 A. I understand, yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Try to understand I'm not trying to put obstacles in

11 your way, but I'm trying to be practical for the sake of everybody.

12 A. Agreed.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So you were telling us that Glas you

14 considered to be a racist paper. You were about to read from a -- a

15 notebook of yours. You agreed to forget about that notebook, but you are

16 going to tell us why in your opinion or why in your considered opinion

17 Glas was a racist paper. Go ahead.

18 A. For the sake of an illustration, this is something I know by heart

19 and I can quote almost Glas. On the 2nd of June, 1992, published under

20 the column "Statements" under the heading "genetic material," I will

21 paraphrase now, this is how it approximately went: The West, which has

22 become degenerated and incestuous, wants to penetrate to the Balkans, and

23 conquer us. And we, the Serbs we are such a good-looking, intelligent

24 people, that we are not going to allow this.

25 To characterise the west as an incestuous, degenerated entity,

Page 24736

1 well, that's racism for me. That's the first thing I wanted to say.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So, let's go back now to Goebbels' Beobachter. You

3 liken Glas to the Beobachter because you consider them both to be racist?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That the only reason why you draw this comparison?

6 A. Both of them are racist, full of hatred toward the other side, and

7 besides Glas was a wartime bulletin, a war bulletin. Yesterday, if I'm

8 not mistaken, you asked me about the boy who was beaten up and whose

9 photographs I've shown to you, whether they wrote about him. No, these

10 would not be the things that Glas would be writing about.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: You also, in the same entry of 9th April 1992, you

12 also seem to hint that even Banja Luka Radio was more objective than Glas.

13 Do you maintain that position?

14 A. In that particular moment, on that particular day, they were more

15 objective, and this is what made me write this report about Beobachter. I

16 was prompted by this report recounting this incident by the hydroelectric

17 plant Jajce II. On this decisive day, on the 8th of April, the Jajce

18 public security station police pulled over a bus at a checkpoint.

19 Reportedly according to what was said in Glas, they killed six reservists

20 and one of them was wounded.

21 The Glas journalist wrote that they were ambushed, whereas the

22 Banja Luka Radio reported that they were stopped at the checkpoint, and

23 that an incident ensued. So there wasn't an ambush. It was a checkpoint

24 like the ones you could find throughout our country in great numbers. So

25 what was the truth? All of them had placed some sort of barricades or

Page 24737

1 checkpoints and were stopping one another. So this was a civilian bus

2 regularly travelling on the route Banja Luka/Bugojno. So when they were

3 stopped at Jajce to check what they call the so-called Croat/Muslim

4 coalition, the JNA reservists who were seated in the back seats of the bus

5 opened fire. And the other side returned fire. Now, the Glas reported

6 that they were ambushed, which wasn't true, and reported that the very

7 morning of the incident, all the Serbs were dismissed from their jobs. So

8 the Glas was in the service of misinforming the people and pulling them

9 apart. Glas was used to voice open threats to Muslims and Croats. I can

10 read out some of these to you. I have them here in my diary.

11 Miodrag Susnica was killed. He was a man employed at the MUP, I

12 believe. So some Serb anti-terrorist forces - which could not have been

13 in existence, but this is what it said they were - they threatened that

14 unless the murderers surrender themselves within 48 hours, and they knew

15 that these alleged murderers were Croats and Muslims, so this constituted

16 a threat.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So I understood you well -- if I

18 understood you well when you say that Banja Luka Radio was more objective,

19 you were referring only to this --

20 A. In that particular moment.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But generally speaking now, leaving this particular

22 incident apart, would you put Glas and Banja Luka at the same level?

23 A. I would. There's this youth show which starts out by saying:

24 "Good afternoon. Here are three Chetnik women who are going to entertain

25 you." You, as a viewer, a Croat, a Muslim, you could not really feel

Page 24738

1 comfortable with that. And these things used to happen. For instance,

2 Predrag Djurkovic, the famous presenter, Stojic, another one, their shows

3 were far from alleviating the tensions and the fear, especially with

4 regard to Muslims. And I have to emphasise this, Muslims are the greater

5 victims of the war in Bosnia because they are the least responsible for

6 everything that happened there.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, my question finally would be would

8 you consider Banja Luka Radio generally speaking to be also racist and

9 full of hatred as you depicted, or as you described Glas?

10 A. To a large extent, although at certain stages the radio did try to

11 ease the rhetorics that they used.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Now I refer you to your entry of the 14th of July.

13 JUDGE JANU: I have one question.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, I'm sorry.

15 Judge Janu would like -- Judge Janu has a question for you.

16 JUDGE JANU: Mr. Witness, I know you couldn't read everything, but

17 maybe you were familiar with magazine or daily paper Jasnost,

18 Kozarski Vjesnik. If you know the level and style of information of

19 those, could you compare it with the Glas? Was it the same level

20 concerning the propaganda or was it worse or better, if you follow these

21 two papers as well?

22 A. I'm sorry to say I haven't had either of these magazines in my

23 hands to be able to tell you anything.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Please refer to the entry of your diary of the 14th

25 of July 1992. And you referred -- first of all, this says basically the

Page 24739

1 decision of the war presidency of the Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka to

2 dismiss the main editor of Glas, Mladjenovic, article, "Art for fighters,

3 fighters for art," petition to replace Kupresanin and Brdjanin, with some

4 statements, allegedly police have information on perpetrators -- that's

5 not important. Source unknown, et cetera.

6 You testified on this at some length here. And amongst other

7 things, you mentioned that you had spoken to Mladjenovic, the editor of

8 Glas. And you told us that you wanted to encourage him in his fight

9 against the triumvirate Radoslav Brdjanin, Kupresanin, Vukic. Now, why

10 would you even dream of encouraging Mladjenovic of such a thing if he was

11 the editor, until then, of Glas, of a newspaper which you compare with

12 Goebbels' Beobachter? Why would you have anything to do with him?

13 A. Let me tell you. This was a Machiavellian approach, if you will,

14 where the ends justify the means. I knew that the moment they start

15 confronting each other, their dirty laundry will come into light, if you

16 understand. Miro advocated one faction, and they were another.

17 Miro Mladjenovic was great friends with Borivoje Sendic,

18 Veljko Milankovic, an Orthodox criminal who had at least 180 criminal

19 reports brought against him before they were liquidated -- before he was

20 liquidated by Serbs themselves because he was in some fuel business and he

21 was a nuisance to Mladic himself. So Miro was on one side, and the others

22 were on the other. Even Vojo Kupresanin, in some moments of sincerity,

23 that 70 per cent of Serbian soldiers were simply looters, robbers. So

24 this was his honest statement.

25 My idea was, and I was doing this for private reasons, not on

Page 24740

1 behalf of anyone, I wanted to encourage him, because I knew he was a

2 coward, and I hoped that whatever he knew of the others that was negative,

3 that he would come out with it. Because you have to know that there was a

4 series in the papers where he was talking about Brane Palackovic, who was

5 an untouchable personality in Banja Luka, and allegedly he had committed

6 90 crimes ever since the inception of the SOS. He was beating up people,

7 robbing, looting, and only after we had read this in the paper did we

8 learn about Palackovic. And previously, Glas would not write about this.

9 So I wanted to encourage him, although as you noticed I did not

10 introduce myself. I just said that I was a friend of his brother's, which

11 I was. I wanted them to fight each other in order to come out with the

12 truth, for the people to learn the truth. I was far from thinking that I

13 was going to solve the situation, but I simply wanted to heat up the

14 friction that existed among them. And I assure you that this did yield

15 results.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Without speculating, could you tell us what was the

17 reason behind the pressure that was exerted, that was put on Mladjenovic

18 and which ended up with his removal?

19 A. What was the reason. Well, Mladjenovic is a very vain person. He

20 was initially minister for information. Then they released him, and he

21 was then an escort to Prince Karadjordjevic, which meant a lot to him.

22 And then suddenly he was marginalised by the top leadership which either

23 made him envious or he simply could not cope with the fact that he had

24 been pushed into the background. He then started placing obstacles to

25 them, started making problems to them, and that's when their quarrel

Page 24741

1 became an open one. So despite the fact that they were saying that they

2 were advocating the interests of the Serbs, they were basically following

3 their private interests.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Did his support to Veljko Milankovic have anything

5 to do with the pressure to have him removed, to your knowledge? I don't

6 want you to speculate. You either know or you don't.

7 A. I'm not certain, but I do think that this could have had something

8 to do with it, because he was almost a saint there, defending Serbian

9 people. But then when they started investigating him, they found that he

10 had some 100 cars over there which he had stolen. He was a criminal,

11 stealing jewellery and so on. Miro liked having such a player at his

12 side, and this probably served as a deterrent to the other side which,

13 since Miro had such a person by him, they probably -- the other side

14 probably didn't feel as secure because a criminal is a criminal. He has

15 no ideals, but you know this.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I want you to put in front of you a vision of Glas

17 before the removal of Mladjenovic, and Glas post-removal of Mladjenovic.

18 Did the editorial policy of Glas change, visible change, after his

19 removal? Or did it remain the same or was there no significant change?

20 A. It all remained the same. Miro Mladjenovic actually was a person

21 behind Glas. Anyway, he was formally removed, but he did dictate the

22 editorial policy, but backstage, so to speak. He wasn't responsible any

23 more, but all the journalists continued supporting him. They all belonged

24 to the same -- they all frequented the same school. Glas did stand out in

25 a way. Miro was removed, but the policy remained absolutely the same.

Page 24742

1 Yesterday, we were reading Glas when he was the main editor, and

2 then if you look at Glas after he had been removed you can see that he was

3 he still the one pulling the strings.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Was there any other editor of any other newspaper or

5 radio station or TV station that was dealt with in the same manner? In

6 other words, that was forced out?

7 A. There were removals in the Banja Luka Radio. I cannot recall them

8 at present. I cannot remember anything specifically, but I do know that

9 there were one, two, or maybe even three putsches within the Banja Luka

10 Radio when people were saying that they were being forcefully removed.

11 Banja Luka Radio even broadcast this openly. I did write this down in my

12 diary, but there were such removals.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Did they occur more or less around the same time

14 that Mladjenovic was removed from editor of Glas?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, on the 4th of August you have an entry in your

17 diary which refers to the red van. Now, we've heard a lot about this red

18 van. And you also give the registration number of this red van. Did the

19 existing -- existence of this red van and the use it was being made of

20 receive any publicity in the media? Did anyone speak about it, write

21 about it?

22 A. No. Not at all, at least not as far as I know. And believe me, I

23 looked at all the newspapers I could lay my hands on very carefully. He

24 was never mentioned in any of the media. This was simply something that

25 was not mentioned.

Page 24743

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you tell us why there was no reference in the

2 papers or in the media to something that we've heard so much about?

3 A. It was not mentioned only so that one day you could not get hold

4 of one of those newspapers and see what this all about. You, or somebody

5 else who would be astonished to read about it. The red van was part of

6 their policy of intimidation and making life difficult for people of other

7 ethnic backgrounds. They were not foolish enough to talk about this.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.



11 JUDGE JANU: Who was behind this policy? Army? Civilian

12 authorities? Private citizens?

13 A. It's hard to say. They were all the same team. What army? When

14 a man like Kupresanin can say about the JNA, which was the fourth largest

15 force in Europe, to say they cannot take a single bullet out of

16 Banja Luka, how could these Serbs have stopped them, had they not all been

17 part of the same team, playing the same game? This was thought up

18 somewhere at the top, and who was the strongest player, whether the army

19 or General Uzelac or Kupresanin or Brdjanin or Vukic at any given moment,

20 it's hard for us to say. It was a fact, however, when that van and many

21 other things people know about, when this red van drove through the town,

22 people's blood froze in their veins.

23 JUDGE JANU: I'm asking you this because you describe those men in

24 the van as armed men in camouflage uniform. So having a uniform at that

25 time doesn't mean anything? It doesn't automatically mean they belong to

Page 24744

1 the army?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 JUDGE JANU: What yes? Can you --

4 A. It didn't mean anything. The Serbs started arming in early 1992.

5 They were already all armed. Even children had hand grenades. Suddenly

6 camouflage uniforms appeared -- well, first, there were olive-grey

7 uniforms, followed by camouflage uniforms, and it was a question of

8 prestige. There was a joke going around Banja Luka, how will you

9 recognise Muslims and Croats in Banja Luka? And the answer was: Well,

10 they're wearing civilian clothes. They were all dressed like Rambo. And

11 there was no way you can know whether they were members of regular units

12 or paramilitary units or whether it was simply a group of criminals that

13 had got together, put on uniforms and made life difficult for the

14 citizens. But you were not allowed to ask. You had no rights. Anyone

15 could stop you, ask to see whether you'd been mobilised or ask you

16 anything, and beat you up. You had no rights. Who would you call? The

17 police? They wouldn't protect you. The police would not protect you

18 against their own, their brother Serbs. That's how it was, unfortunately.

19 The uniform meant nothing.

20 JUDGE JANU: So what would be your answer if I put to you in your

21 opinion, experience, what you heard from others, wasn't there any force

22 possibility to stop those people, by the police, by the army, by the

23 civilian authorities? Was it possible to do that? Can you state that?

24 If there would be the will?

25 A. It was possible. For example, the incident we mentioned last

Page 24745

1 time, the shootout between Vedran Mandic, and Kajkut Mihajlovic, the

2 attack on the Mejdan police station when they were fighting about dividing

3 up the loot and the police liquidated the criminals. These criminals had

4 long criminal records and yet the police had protected them up to that

5 moment, cooperated with them. However, then they fell out over dividing

6 the booty.

7 The police could have dealt with them if they wanted to, but the

8 police was as unreliable as the criminals were. I said that the commander

9 of the Majdan police station raped several Muslim and Croat women, and I

10 saw Mr. Brdjanin waving this off. He was replaced the following year, but

11 not before -- not because he raped those women; it was because he killed a

12 man, and this man was a Serb policeman who stopped him at a checkpoint.

13 He took out his pistol and shot him, although it was one of his own

14 policeman who was standing there and had to stop him.

15 JUDGE JANU: How did you see Mr. Brdjanin just wave his hand on

16 it? Can you describe the situation a little bit? You saw it or you heard

17 it? Can you be clear.

18 A. I saw this looking at the video of my previous testimony. When I

19 said that the police commander had raped a few women, he waved his hand in

20 a resigned way. I allow that Brdjanin may not have known about this.

21 This commander's name was Petar.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the last name.

23 A. And people were terrified of him. He would go around the

24 checkpoints toward Vrbani and Celinac to make sure people couldn't get out

25 and that they felt insecure and that they couldn't get food.

Page 24746

1 JUDGE AGIUS: What was the commander's name? It was Petar?

2 A. Petar Tanazic.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Thank you, Judge Janu.

4 Could I refer you now, please, to your entry for the 11th August

5 1992. I have a series of questions on this entry. Let's start from the

6 beginning of this entry. (Redacted)

7 (Redacted) Did he describe

8 it to you or did he describe it to someone else and you got to know about

9 it?

10 A. No, she told me about this personally. (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

13 A. And she was horrified (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And one of the things you mention is the freedom of

18 movement for Muslims in Celinac is restricted to four hours a day. (Redacted)

19 (Redacted) But in your

20 testimony, you mention about a law, laws that prevented Muslims from

21 moving around in Celinac. Are you sure there were laws in place that had

22 been put in place restricting the freedom of movement of Muslims in

23 Celinac, or is this existence of laws something on which you're not

24 precise?

25 A. I am absolutely sure of one thing. I don't know whether the law

Page 24747

1 was written down, but I know that people followed it. And it was not only

2 to do with Celinac, Your Honour. I was not allowed to move around

3 Banja Luka unless I had a certificate stating that I had regulated my

4 mobilisation duties because there had been a general call-up. I don't

5 know whether this was actually written down as law.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Now, I want to know the following. You

7 say that the situation in the town is probably the result of the policy of

8 the former president of Celinac Municipality, Radoslav Brdjanin. Is this

9 your own conclusion, (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I had thought about this. Do you have any concerns

15 about the name of this lady being mentioned in open session, or shall we

16 play it cautious and redact it? I'm asking both you and --

17 MS. KORNER: I thought you were asking the witness, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I am asking you. Maybe you know this person.

19 MS. KORNER: Never heard of her. Other than through the diary.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you think once we have mentioned this person's

21 name, she would require some kind of protection? We strike her name off

22 from the transmission?

23 A. To be quite honest, yes, I would like that to be done. I know

24 where she lives and what the consequences of what I have said might be,

25 although I'm sure she would abide by what I've said.

Page 24748

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we will redact her name wherever it

2 appears in the transcript.

3 Then again, at the same entry, in the same entry, you continue as

4 follows: "At the question of one of his colleagues of what to do with

5 mixed marriage children, Brdjanin reportedly said, 'we will throw them

6 into the Vrbas, the ones who resurface are definitely Serbs.'"

7 How did you come across this information?

8 A. One of the people who were there told me about this. I have to

9 say I didn't hear it personally. And I know that some people from the

10 town laughed at this and said this is a mistake. In the town, there is

11 the River Vrbas, and two or three other rivers, and we all knew how to

12 swim. And it was least of all the Serbs who knew how to swim because they

13 lived up in the hills. And we lived near the river. So if someone

14 drowned, it would most probably have been a Serb. That was the

15 interpretation of the people who laughed when they commented on this.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: But this was not something that this woman told you,

17 together with the rest of the information --

18 A. No, no, it wasn't.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Now, further down in the same entry, you

20 state: "HTV." What's HTV?

21 A. Croatian television.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. "HTV programme, Slikom Na Sliku is devoted to

23 concentration camps." Now, can you give us more information on this.

24 First of all, was this -- could you receive this station in Banja Luka?

25 How did you come to know about this HTV programme?

Page 24749

1 A. In 1992, it was still possible to see. You couldn't see the image

2 very well. There was like snow on the screen, but you could see a bit.

3 And we all wanted to peer over the fence to see what the other people were

4 saying. There were times when we could see and times when we couldn't.

5 However, after -- at a later date, the picture disappeared and all we

6 could follow was the broadcast from Pale.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So your testimony is that when you say HTV

8 programme, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, it's because you saw it? You

9 watched this programme on TV?

10 A. Yes, yes. Yes, I did. I managed to see it, yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Which concentration camps did it refer to?

12 A. Probably about Omarska, perhaps Manjaca. This was a frequent

13 topic.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you recall ever having seen Mr. Brdjanin or

15 having heard Mr. Brdjanin deal with the topic of these camps, of camps in

16 general or in particular?

17 A. No. No, I can't recall that.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't recall Mr. Brdjanin being interviewed on

19 TV, for example, on these camps?

20 A. I cannot recall that. On one occasion, I think he said on

21 television -- no, I don't think. I'm sure he said on one occasion: "If

22 the Russians and the Germans could have camps, why shouldn't we, the

23 Serbs, be able to have camps?" I think the broadcast was called

24 Otvoreni Ekran or something like that. I think I heard that on just one

25 occasion.

Page 24750

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you ever have the opportunity to hear

2 Mr. Ostojic speak on the camps?

3 A. He kept saying that the Serbs didn't have camps, that they were

4 only prisons. And at one point, he attacked Glas saying that Glas was

5 writing all sorts of things. He was even against Miro Mladjenovic. He

6 said that Glas was writing about nonsense and that Reuters discovered the

7 camps because of them. Then he kind of mitigated this by saying: "We

8 have nothing to hide, but don't write all sorts of things."

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In the same entry, however, you said -- you

10 referred to one interview or one statement by Ostojic who seems, at least

11 to the -- according to the translation that I have here, to be saying

12 exactly the opposite. According to your entry, Ostojic said that "some

13 things are better left unsaid, not because they have to stay hidden." Was

14 he referring to the camps when he said these, or what?

15 A. Yes. This is what it says. If you will allow me:

16 "Minister Ostojic went on to say that some things should not be written

17 about, not because there was something to hide, but because it was not

18 politically the right time, saying that the journalist of the Reuters

19 agency had found a news item in the Glas about the transfer of prisoners

20 of war from Trnopolje to Manjaca. When the camp was discovered, they

21 rounded up these people, took them off to Manjaca, and then said, "you

22 see, we've released them."

23 He was, in fact, criticising Glas for writing about this and,

24 thus, allowing Reuters to find out about it.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you recall any articles or any programmes on the

Page 24751












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 24752

1 camps in 1992, in any of the papers or on any of the media, TV or radio

2 stations? Was it something that was being discussed, or was it something

3 that was being put aside?

4 A. Well, you see, as I understand it, to discuss is one thing and to

5 publish is another. Nothing was published. If we talk about the Serbian

6 side in Banja Luka, there was no talk of camps. We all knew, however,

7 that camps existed. My next-door neighbour was a camp guard in Manjaca.

8 He told me such terrible things that at first I was unable to believe him.

9 Afterwards, I got to know some doctors who were up there and who told me

10 certain things. These people were kept in stables, stables where you had

11 room for 60 cows on one side and 60 cows on another were packed with 800

12 people. They called this a prison. There were children there, elderly

13 people when the international community discovered this.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we have heard enough about Manjaca and Omarska

15 and the rest, but what I want to know is whether you recall having read

16 anything or heard anything in the papers or on TV? Nothing?

17 A. I only read that the Serbs had no camps, that they had only

18 prisons and centres. It's interesting to note, however, that when the

19 international community arrived, people would take people from the prison

20 and send them off to mosques. And people went there bringing bread and

21 food to these unfortunate people. They put them in mosques and mosque

22 courtyards. And even Muslim doctors said "don't take them so much food.

23 You'll kill them. They have been starving, and if they eat all that food

24 suddenly, they may die."

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. May I refer you to your entry of the 28th of

Page 24753

1 August. I'm sorry, I didn't tell you about this yesterday, but I thought

2 about it today. You have a very short entry there. First of all, you

3 state that Glas was not published that day, was not printed due to lack of

4 paper. And then you say: "A man from Brdjanin's security says Brdjanin

5 is under great pressure." Now, what are you talking about? Where did you

6 get this information and what is this great pressure that this Brdjanin

7 security man seems to be referring to? 28th of August, sir.

8 A. I'm looking for it. Oh, yes.

9 You mean this, I also learned from the people that this -- it says

10 here: "Milorad Brdjanin is often caught in the fire and as soon as he

11 gets angry at the people he receives, he throws things at them. And says

12 come and sit where I am sitting." Yes, this is Brdjanin, and the name

13 Milorad is here by mistake. Well, he was certainly under tremendous

14 pressure. Whether we wish to admit this or not, that's how it was. His

15 village, the people in the village where he was born, from Popovac, they

16 kept coming to see him and asking him for this and that, saying, "Well,

17 now we've got the state, do this and that for me." And of course he was

18 nervous. He was besieged by people asking him for favours.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Great

20 pressure can mean more than one thing, so you gave us the context in which

21 you wrote it down. So more or less you're talking of stress. More or

22 less you're talking of stress, and not pressure by other people on him.

23 A. I didn't mean any particular side. I just think he wasn't having

24 an easy time. He certainly wasn't.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I mentioned this to you yesterday. You

Page 24754

1 mentioned in your testimony at page 18.010 of the transcript about the man

2 who got beaten when you brought them to a doctor and whose picture became

3 Exhibit P2325. If it's necessary, I'll show you the picture, but I think

4 you will remember who we are talking about. What was the ethnicity, what

5 was the nationality of this man?

6 A. Yes, I know. I recall this.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: What was his nationality?

8 A. A Muslim.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know the reason why he was beaten up?

10 A. I know what he told me. In fact, I was going to see a friend of

11 mine to have a cup of coffee with him. And he told me that a man who had

12 been beaten up was lying in his workshop. This was a man who was

13 repairing body -- a car body -- bodies. And he -- actually, he wasn't the

14 one working there, but he had keys to the workshop. So when I went there

15 and saw that the man had been beaten black and blue, I told my friend to

16 just try and see whether he had fever, and I said I was going to get a

17 doctor. So I did find a doctor who dressed his wounds as far as he could,

18 provided first aid to him because he was bleeding, he was vomiting blood.

19 He was a man by the name of Sejo Pucar. He lived at Odica Street [phoen].

20 And he recounted me. He told me everything about the incident.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you recall seeing any reports on this incident in

22 the media?

23 A. No, Your Honour. At least 20 or 30 people were being beaten up

24 every night, and where would they end up if they reported on each and

25 every one of these incidents?

Page 24755

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So do I read you clear that, in fact, you're telling

2 us that no reports ever appeared in the media on this or similar

3 incidents? Because if you're saying that there were 30 such incidents a

4 day ...

5 A. Approximately. That was my estimate. In the papers and on the

6 TV, you could hear a report by the public security station saying that in

7 the course of the previous night, some 15 burglaries were recorded, and

8 someone committed suicide, something was broken into, a bomb was thrown or

9 something. But if someone had been beaten up, you would hear no reports

10 about that.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, can I refer to your entries -- entry of the 5th

12 of April of 1992. And we are going to deal very briefly with the SOS.

13 Before we do so, Judge Janu has got one question.

14 JUDGE JANU: I would like to go back to this so-called

15 Mr. Brdjanin's pronouncement concerning the swimming test for the

16 children. Can you tell me -- you say here "reportedly." Can you tell me

17 how long do you know Mr. Brdjanin?

18 A. Frankly, ever since he had entered politics I was able to see him.

19 But I do not know him personally. I know him -- that is, I know his

20 elderly daughter.

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the name.

22 A. My best friend was a teacher of hers in the high school. That is

23 what I know about Brdjanin, in addition to what I heard from the people,

24 from the papers that I read, his statements, from what I heard on the TV

25 and then typed it down. I do not know Mr. Brdjanin personally, nor had I

Page 24756

1 heard of him prior to all these events started unfolding.

2 JUDGE JANU: And this lady - I will not mention her name - that

3 nurse who gave you some informations, she knew him well, living -- being

4 from Celinac? Do you know that?

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE JANU: Did she know him personally?

7 A. I don't know. I cannot claim either way now. But I think not.

8 Celinac being a small town, she saw him frequently. Probably when she was

9 at work, they would come across each other. But it is difficult for me to

10 say whether they knew each other personally. I may have written something

11 down about it, but I cannot tell you anything of my memory.

12 JUDGE JANU: So you cannot say that "because I know Mr. Brdjanin

13 so well, so I believe it's probable that he used those words about this

14 test for children"? You cannot say that?

15 A. I believe --


17 A. -- the people who had told me so because these were very serious

18 people to say something. These were professors, doctors --

19 JUDGE JANU: No, no, no. I want to know from your own experience,

20 knowledge of his character and all this, that you believe this could be

21 given to assume to him? It wasn't a situation like that.

22 A. In view of all of his statements, I do believe so. However, I

23 have to underline the fact that I did not hear him say so. I've heard it

24 from people who I trust, and I believe that this was indeed true.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I saw you standing, Mr. Ackerman.

Page 24757

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Two things, Your Honour: Page 23, line 23, that

2 the translator missed. What he said was "his daughter Milka, who is

3 really a wonderful girl."

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, this goes into page 23 -- I was looking at 22.

5 23, yes. Okay, thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

6 Do you confirm that? Do you confirm having said what

7 Mr. Ackerman has just mentioned; namely, that you had also said --

8 A. What, that I said Milka?


10 A. I said Milja.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. It's Mr. Ackerman is obsessed with the...

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: He said Milja, and Mr. Ackerman said Milka. So his

14 mind is still there.

15 Yes, Mr. Ackerman. Any further remarks?

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. I hope there's no confusion, Your Honour,

17 about this matter.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: No, certainly not.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: The witness said with regard to Mr. Brdjanin's

20 statement about swimming in the Vrbas River, that it was not the woman he

21 talked to from Celinac who told him that.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that is clear. That's why I put the

23 question in any case, because I wanted to make clear whether this --

24 MR. ACKERMAN: I just wanted to make sure there was no confusion

25 about that.

Page 24758

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and while we are still in time, you

2 mentioned the name and surname of the Muslim man who was attacked and that

3 you then took to the doctor. Shall we redact his name? Is he still

4 alive? If we leave his --

5 A. No. You can leave his name. I hope that he is alive. I hope so.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay.

7 Yes, let me take you to the 5th of April and the previous two

8 days. We're dealing with the SOS. And on the 5th of April, after that

9 the Crisis Staff had been formed, you have -- you make an entry. You

10 enter in your diary that Brdjanin is making statements on the SOS demands

11 and the acceptance by the Crisis Staff. Can you go into more details,

12 because it seems that the ones who spoke about this was Vukic and Brdjanin

13 on that occasion, at least according to your entry. What did Brdjanin

14 actually say that you recall?

15 A. I know that he supported these men on the barricades who were

16 asking for the war profiteers to be removed. In April when the Serbian

17 Defence Forces appeared, the entire town was swarming with armed men. We

18 didn't know where they had come from. They walked around. They would

19 stop everyone, mistreat people. They would pull over buses. And whenever

20 they came across a Croat or a Muslim, they would take jewellery off them,

21 kick them off the bus. So they would be mistreating them in all different

22 ways. And we simply thought this was some sort of a gang that went out of

23 hand. We never even thought that the state, whichever state it was, that

24 it was not going to intervene.

25 At one point, the Banja Luka Radio started broadcasting the

Page 24759

1 announcement of the Serbian Defence Forces, that they had placed

2 some -- put forward some conditions that they are protecting combatants on

3 the front, and you know, they're talking about protecting those on the

4 front and they're in the town. So they put forward some ten conditions,

5 and they asked that sort of a board be established that would represent

6 their interests.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: What my question was, what do you recall

8 Mr. Brdjanin --

9 A. Yes. And Brdjanin was supposed to be a member of this body. And

10 since he always wanted to be a high-profile man, he was turned into the

11 spokesman of this group that would meet. And out of the ten demands that

12 the group had presented previously, they adopted 11. I believe that they

13 had forgotten what the SOS had been asking for, and then they simply

14 adopted their decisions. So the levelling of the cadres, one of the

15 demands was for the ethnic composition to be completely changed. We were

16 talking -- maybe this was yesterday or during my previous testimony, there

17 were two Muslims who were directors of the Metal company. So why couldn't

18 they be directors? Simply because they were Muslims. So if I'm a Serb,

19 but not an intelligent person, why would I be more suitable to occupy a

20 post than someone else and so on? It was then basically that the putsch

21 took place. That was the time that the takeover took place.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And go to 14th June 1992, please. We are soon

23 finished.

24 A. Thank God.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: As the saying goes: "Those who will walk behind me

Page 24760

1 will be" --

2 A. Oh, it has been interpreted. I apologise. I haven't had a smoke

3 in a long time. I'm sorry.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You should quit.

5 Yes. Did you go to the 14th of June?

6 A. Yes. June.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You are quoted there, you are saying Vukic

8 encouraging or saying that -- on TV that Serbian radio and TV should

9 engage in a stronger propaganda in favour of the Serb force. Was he drunk

10 when he said this, or was he sober?

11 A. Your Honour, it was very difficult to find him sober. Whether he

12 was a bit more inebriated or a bit less, that's difficult for me to say.

13 Because his intoxication had different degrees. He would say many

14 different things. You said the 14th of July?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: June. June.

16 A. June, no, I don't have it here.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's all right. Forget it. We're moving forward

19 with another question. Judge Janu.

20 JUDGE JANU: Sir, I would like to put you a few questions which

21 are of more general character. I would like to know some of your

22 opinions. The first one, what's your opinion about Mr. Tudjman and his

23 contribution to the tension and later conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. My opinion of him cannot be more negative than it is. He's

25 conceited, uneducated. I think that he was the great misfortune of the

Page 24761

1 Croatian people because with his mad policy, it was him who had caused the

2 conflict between Muslims and Croats. I don't have a good opinion of him.

3 And if I may say, in 1992, I was writing in the Croatian press against him

4 and his policy vis-a-vis Bosnia. I think that he was -- he was disastrous

5 for Bosnian Croats because of his alliance with Milosevic on the issue of

6 the division of Bosnia. And that is what I can say about the late

7 President Tudjman.

8 JUDGE JANU: Do you have any explanation why he was re-elected as

9 a president in the situation where there was more or less democracy in the

10 country, or at least the free elections? Do you have any explanation for

11 this behaviour of the majority of Croatian people? If you have; I don't

12 know.

13 A. This is a very difficult question. I believe he had indebted many

14 people. You know that Croatia as a country had been practically sold out

15 to many people. He was perhaps even afraid that he was going to be held

16 to account for the privatisation which was carried out irregularly, and

17 many people profited from it. So maybe some of these who had profited

18 from it were for him. But it's difficult to say. One cannot predict what

19 people will do. Serbs had a wonderful politician, Nikola Pasic, a

20 radical, who spoke of the people as follows: "People, you are my

21 strength; people, you are cattle."

22 JUDGE JANU: Okay. And another question: What's your opinion

23 about Mr. Izetbegovic's Islamic Declaration which was reprinted in 1990?

24 And again, concerning its influence on the situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina

25 in 1992, if any influence. If you are able to answer this question.

Page 24762

1 A. I will do my best, Your Honour. This declaration has to be read

2 out -- read in its entirety because you know what happens when things get

3 pulled out of the context. I believe that the declaration did not have

4 any impact on anything. It wasn't fatal in any sense. In Banja Luka, I

5 had far more Serb and Muslim friends than Croats. I only maybe had two

6 friends among the Croats. And I know that it was Muslims, Bosniaks who

7 were least passionate about the national issue. And maybe it was

8 precisely because of their - how to call it even - that they are perhaps

9 to blame for my Banja Luka, for what happened in my Banja Luka because

10 when the elections were held, Serbs voted for Serbs, the SDS, and Croats

11 for the HDZ. And the Muslims divided their votes, for the SDA, for

12 Nijaz Durakovic's party, for Izetbegovic's SDA, for Ante Markovic and his

13 reformist forces, then the Yugoslav-oriented parties. Their votes were

14 divided. Had they really stood by the Declaration as someone is trying to

15 present, then they would have won. I don't think the Declaration had a

16 role to play. If you take a look at my diary and if you pull some things

17 out of the context, then it's clear.

18 JUDGE JANU: Okay. And if you -- what would you tell us about

19 Mr. Izetbegovic himself in comparison what you said with -- about

20 Franjo Tudjman and maybe in comparison with Mr. Milosevic? If you can be

21 very concise, I would be happy.

22 A. Alija was a man who was most reticent. He was a believer, the

23 only one of the three. And I believe that he had to play to the tune of

24 the other two. He had a country with three nations, where two nations

25 were raising their hand against the others. Serbs were saying that they

Page 24763

1 had their country proper, Serbia; Croats are Croatia; and Muslims had only

2 Bosnia. And poor things, they had to somehow try and survive between

3 these two sides.

4 In any case, he should not be regarded as having taken either side

5 or as being responsible for these -- some of the fatal things that

6 happened for Bosnia. He, perhaps, made some mistakes. Certainly, he did

7 make some mistakes. But he is far, far less -- the things that he could

8 do were zero in comparison to what the other two persons could do, and

9 they were the ones who dictated all the events and the developments that

10 we experienced.

11 JUDGE JANU: So in your opinion, he's an honest man, or he was an

12 honest man? Because he's not living any more.

13 A. I don't know. Even if he had been the worst of persons, there was

14 little that he could do. The possibilities were few. He wasn't a bad

15 person. I don't think so. Perhaps he just made some bad moves. But he

16 couldn't do much. He had to weigh things all the time, and in weighing

17 things, he might have made some wrong moves.

18 JUDGE JANU: You said he was a believer. What did you mean by

19 this?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE JANU: Believer? He believed in God, in Islam? And what

22 was the -- yeah, just this.

23 A. To me, a believer is a person who believes in God, regardless of

24 whether he is a Christian or a Muslim. Anyway, religion is in a way out

25 of joint with politics.

Page 24764

1 JUDGE JANU: And the conflict in Bosnia is sometimes from outside

2 viewed as a conflict of religions. What's your opinion, of these three

3 religions?

4 A. Unfortunately, yes. What is my opinion of this? I think that

5 this is a great tragedy, and if there is God -- and anyway, every religion

6 says "don't kill, don't steal." The ones to blame are the religious

7 communities. They committed as many mistakes as the media did. So these

8 religious communities are also to blame for what had happened. Take a

9 look at Bosnia today. In the Croatian part, you have churches -- the

10 church is outspoken. In the other part, Muslim part, Islam is very loud.

11 So even if you don't have any money to build hospitals or universities,

12 you will always have enough money to build a church or a mosque. And this

13 speaks for everything really.

14 JUDGE JANU: So what was the role of orthodox church, or other

15 churches, all churches?

16 A. In my opinion, the most horrible role was the one played by the

17 Orthodox church. I recall in -- it was in 1992 in Belgradsko Vreme where

18 the photograph was published of a priest wearing, holding a

19 submachine-gun, and I think that would tell you everything. I don't know

20 what Catholic priests, on the other hand, were like simply because I'm not

21 a practicing believer. I don't go to church. But I believe that there

22 were extremists among them as well. I know that there are such extremists

23 even today in Croatia. What the situation is like with the Muslims, I

24 cannot say.

25 In Banja Luka, when I was there, an honourable man lived there, a

Page 24765

1 Banja Luka Muftija. Unfortunately, he died. Efendi Ibrahim Halilovic. He

2 was a wonderful man.

3 JUDGE JANU: What about the name Bishop Jevtic? Do you know that

4 name, Jevtic?

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE JANU: What about another name, Bishop, if I'm right,

7 Filaret?

8 A. Filaret, yes, that was the one I was telling you about. He was

9 taken a picture holding a machine-gun. He was a hawk. Amfilohije Radovic

10 as well. It doesn't even cross my mind to condemn the church as an

11 institution. However, I believe that this time some of the clerics who

12 betrayed the religion, the God, and the people, that they should be

13 prosecuted as well. And in addition to them, even the representatives of

14 the media who contributed to the spreading of hatred and who contributed

15 to bringing about all these developments.

16 JUDGE JANU: Was there any reflection of guilt in the Orthodox

17 church after the war? Did you -- could you hear something or see or read?

18 Did the church itself -- has the church itself done something about the

19 situation?

20 A. I don't know, Your Honour. I think that experts should be

21 consulted on these matters, experts who had followed the situation. It is

22 very difficult for me to talk about it.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have a break now.

24 JUDGE JANU: Break.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I don't want to keep the staff unduly here.

Page 24766

1 We'll have a 25-minute break. And then we will proceed, but we'll soon

2 finish.

3 How much time do you require?

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm not sure what the end result was.

5 Do I go first or Mr. Ackerman?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We agreed yesterday you go first, and then

7 Mr. Ackerman goes last. And then you hoped ...

8 MS. KORNER: I think, Your Honour, I'll probably be about

9 three-quarters of an hour to an hour. I don't know how many more

10 questions Your Honour has.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We're practically finished. And you, Mr. Ackerman?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: About the same, Your Honour, maybe a little less.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. So we should finish by the

14 end of the next session, roughly, more or less. Thank you.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally, before we proceed with the testimony

18 of the witness, Ms. Korner -- Ms. Korner.

19 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we proceed with the testimony of the witness,

21 you filed a motion confidentially for the protective measures for your

22 witness in rebuttal.

23 MS. KORNER: Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: It's being -- do you have anything to say with

25 regard to that, Mr. Ackerman? No.

Page 24767

1 We have given it due consideration. Our decision is to grant the

2 motion with the caveat regarding whether the witness should testify in

3 closed session or not. If it's the case, we will interview the witness in

4 the beginning and then we will decide.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: But otherwise, the protective measures requested are

7 being granted.

8 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Judge Janu.

10 JUDGE JANU: I assume, Mr. Witness, that as a journalist you are

11 familiar with the expression "verbal symbolism" as a form of expression.

12 I would like to know, going back to your statement that there was these

13 four horsemen of apocalypse, Kupresanin, Vukic, Radic, and

14 Mr. Brdjanin, Who do you think, if you know, was using this type of

15 expression, verbal symbolism?

16 A. Well, I think all of them, all four of them actually did. I think

17 it was all four of them. Some of them to a larger extent; others to a

18 lesser extent.

19 JUDGE JANU: Thank you. And my last question: Maybe you told us,

20 but I don't remember. I don't recall. Were you -- before the war, during

21 this difficult in Bosnia, were you a member of any political party?

22 A. Never. Never was I a member of any political party.

23 JUDGE JANU: So am I right, you were not a member of the League of

24 Communists as well?

25 A. No, no, never.

Page 24768

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Janu. Judge Taya from Japan would

2 like to put some questions to you, sir. Judge Taya.

3 JUDGE TAYA: During 1992, out of politician, who appeared very

4 often in Belgrade TV?

5 A. Do you mean the politicians who were carving our fate in

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, or are you referring to Yugoslav politicians in

7 general?


9 A. Well, as far as the Yugoslav ones were concerned, Milosevic was

10 there every day. I think he appeared most often out of all politicians.

11 Then our politicians from Krajina would get their turn once all the

12 trouble started.

13 JUDGE TAYA: Among those politicians, who was the most detrimental

14 to the ethnic tension in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 A. Out of the politicians from Bosnia was Radovan Karadzic, no doubt.

16 After him --

17 JUDGE TAYA: No, I'm talking about the Belgrade TV.

18 A. Well, Milosevic for sure. Then Dobrica Cosic and the like.

19 JUDGE TAYA: I want to know the same question, the same point

20 about the Pale TV.

21 A. TV Pale, well, I can tell you one thing. Whoever appeared there

22 was working against Bosnia and to the detriment of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 JUDGE TAYA: Who appeared very often on TV Pale during 1992?

24 A. Well, Karadzic, Krajisnik, Ostojic, Buha, Maksimovic, they

25 appeared the most often. Those are the faces we saw most of the time.

Page 24769

1 JUDGE TAYA: Among these politicians, who was the most detrimental

2 to incite the ethnic tension in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

3 A. Karadzic, no doubt. Then, say, Krajisnik, then Ostojic. These

4 are terrible people. Buha, Maksimovic, all of them were -- well, it's

5 very hard to say. It's a question of nuance. But I think that Karadzic

6 is on the very top.

7 JUDGE TAYA: Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the time being, we don't have any further

9 questions from our side.

10 Ms. Korner. Thank you.

11 Examined by Ms. Korner:

12 Q. Sir, first of all, I want to go back to something that you were

13 asked about yesterday. This is at page 28 of the LiveNote. And you were

14 being asked about the difference between town and rural population.



17 Q. And you said this, and I think there may have been an error. I

18 noticed it at the time, in the transcript. You said there was another

19 characteristic of Bosnia which was quite important, especially in cases of

20 villages where only one nationality lived. And then what's been written

21 is: "It was very difficult to delude the people. This was often done by

22 local priests who frequently played rather dishonourable roles in our

23 society." Did you mean it was difficult to delude people or easy to

24 delude people?

25 A. No, no, no. It was easy to delude people, because -- I mean,

Page 24770

1 these clergymen there, they were in such positions of importance that they

2 could actually abuse what they were doing.

3 Q. Yes, thank you, sir. I thought it didn't otherwise make sense.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]


6 Q. Next, I want to deal with something you raised. Sorry.

7 This was to do with the Serbian academy of arts.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, he raised it at page 39. The SANU

9 memorandum.

10 Q. Do you remember that? Just answer yes or no, because then I'm

11 going to show you the document.

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we've now got that memorandum, and I'd

14 like to hand it out to Your Honours. A copy for the witness, and then I'm

15 just going to ask him to look at one part of it.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I would question the basis upon what it's being

17 used for at this point. It has been a subject of this case from the very

18 beginning, and the Prosecution having rested their case should not be able

19 to just put documents into evidence any longer because they feel like it.

20 I don't think it responds to anything this witness said.

21 MS. KORNER: I'm not aware it has been the subject of any

22 discussion other than in passing in Professor Donia's -- I'm now doing

23 this. Dr. Donia's testimony. At page 40 of the LiveNote yesterday,

24 Judge Janu said -- asked him: "Sir, you were telling us about the

25 involvement of academics from the academy of sciences. Do you remember

Page 24771

1 some names, some leading personalities?" In those circumstances, it's our

2 submission we are entitled to put the document in.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, I think so, yes.

4 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Let me just say for the record I think that would

6 require an application to reopen the case because all that was asked about

7 was the names, and he gave the names.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But the question of the society was brought up, and

9 let's see what the question is anyway. I mean, it's --

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I've made my objection. I'm just making the

11 record. That's what I'm doing, and I think I'm right.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman. Let's go ahead.


14 Q. If you can be given a copy, please, sir. And I just want you

15 to -- is this -- this is -- it was -- I think the situation as we have

16 been told, it was leaked to the press, and then it was thereafter

17 published in various sources. This is one published in Zagreb. But is

18 this what you're talking about?

19 A. Yes, yes, that's it.

20 Q. Right. All I want to -- you said this was really the beginnings

21 of the propaganda. Could you go, please, to -- I did mark the page. What

22 page did I say it was? It's the second-to-the-last page, page 161. In

23 the translation, Your Honours, it's page 335.

24 A. I've found it.

25 Q. Do you see there it's the paragraph that begins: "It is the

Page 24772












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 24773

1 historical and democratic right of the Serbian People to establish their

2 full national and cultural integrity" --

3 A. I can see that, I can. Yes.

4 Q. And then jumping the next sentence, "gain equality and independent

5 development has a deep historical meaning for the Serbian nation"?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: What page are we on in the English version?

7 MS. KORNER: 335.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry, I missed that.


10 Q. "In less than 50 years, through two successive generations, twice

11 exposed to physical destruction, forced assimilation, christening,

12 cultural genocide, ideological indoctrination, underestimation,

13 renouncement of their own tradition under the imposed feeling of guilt,

14 intellectually and politically disarmed," and so on and so forth.

15 And then it says: "If it sees its future in the family of

16 cultural and civilised nations of the world, Serbian nation must gain the

17 opportunity to find itself and become a historical subject. To regain

18 awareness of its historical and spiritual being, to clearly define its

19 economic and cultural interests."

20 And then going right down, please, to the bottom of the page:

21 "The biggest trouble - this is the third sentence - the biggest trouble is

22 the Serbian People do not have a state, whilst all the other nations do."

23 Now, sir, did you read this memorandum or excerpts from it at the

24 time?

25 A. Well, at that time it was not actually being made public. It went

Page 24774

1 from hand to hand, so I managed to see some excerpts from the memorandum.

2 But these were some kind of secret sessions that were held. That's what

3 it seemed like to me, at any rate, where these people who made these

4 decisions, these academicians, these people at the Writers' Club in

5 Belgrade, the address being Francuska Street number 7, they discussed it,

6 they debated it. At the same time, this was being written about

7 increasingly in the press, that Serbia was being exploited by the other

8 republics and also in the Politika daily, there was this amazing section

9 called "Reverberations and Reactions," and the idea being promoted there

10 was that everything was being taken away from Serbia and it was being

11 exploited. So it was just preparation of what was to come.

12 Q. Right. Now, you also said yesterday, you were being asked

13 questions by Judge Agius at that stage, and that is at page 36 of the

14 LiveNote. And you were asked: "Do you mean to tell us, because this

15 means" -- 37, sorry. "This needs to be clear, that in your mind the media

16 were not calling for genocide but were creating an atmosphere which led to

17 genocide." I would just like you to tell the Court, please, sir, what you

18 mean when you use the word "genocide."

19 A. Well, when I say "genocide," I mean eradication, making a nation

20 extinct, destroying its places of worship. What is genocide for me? Let

21 me explain it in the most practical possible way. In Banja Luka towards

22 the end of the 19th century, there were 41 mosques, for instance.

23 Nowadays, there is no trace of a mosque. A state cannot be built on

24 destroyed cemeteries and places of worship. That is genocide for me.

25 Cultural genocide, too. Many people were killed as well. So that's what

Page 24775

1 I mean by it. I don't know if I was precise enough.

2 Q. That's fine, sir. We just wanted to know so we're all clear on

3 what you meant.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, incidentally with regard to the previous

5 question and the reason why we admitted the document that Ms. Korner made

6 use of, Mr. Ackerman, please refer to yesterday's transcript, page 40,

7 line 17. The witness is answering when he was asked for the names by

8 Judge Janu. He said: "Of course, I do. The entire academy of arts and

9 sciences, the Belgrade-based academy of arts and sciences, first, they

10 published the memorandum, the infamous memorandum, and then a number of

11 the members, Cosic and others, they were all working on the same agenda.

12 They wanted to appear..." And it goes on and on and on. Okay?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I don't think this could be

14 admitted without someone certifying or telling you that this is actually

15 the memorandum. If you'll notice, it is -- it's contained in a thing

16 called: "Roots of Serbian aggression" --


18 MR. ACKERMAN: -- that is published in Zagreb and apparently

19 authored by some people in Zagreb. And it may very well just be

20 propaganda. And so I worry about it from that standpoint. I can't say

21 it's not the memorandum, but I can't say it is. It could very well just

22 be Croat propaganda.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: And certainly, if it's going to come in, that page

25 that says "Roots of Serbian aggression" does not belong there.

Page 24776

1 MS. KORNER: If you look, it's an English translation. But in

2 fact --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We also have the B/C/S one.

4 MS. KORNER: The B/C/S doesn't have that. It's the simplest way

5 of getting the translation. In any event, let's not argue this out,

6 please. Your Honours have admitted it. Mr. Ackerman has made his

7 objection. There's another translation of it --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: One is enough, Ms. Korner.

9 MS. KORNER: Fine. I forgot to ask for an exhibit number.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We still don't have an exhibit number. I see

11 Mr. Ackerman standing.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I just want to make it very clear that the B/C/S

13 version is also from Zagreb, and I'll check -- I'll check my real copy

14 when I get home tonight. This may very well just be a propaganda piece.

15 It may not be.

16 MS. KORNER: I invite you, Mr. Ackerman, to check your own

17 personal copy of this gripping document.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: The exhibit number, please.

19 MS. KORNER: 2730, please.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: P2730.

21 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please proceed, Ms. Korner.

23 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

24 Q. All right. Now, you were asked a number of questions about

25 Mr. Brdjanin's appearances on Radio Banja Luka and on TV Banja Luka. And

Page 24777

1 you said at page 45: "He spoke on the radio constantly." And then at

2 page 46, you were asked about TV Banja Luka. And you say: "I rely mostly

3 on my diary, but he did appear very often." Could you have, please, your

4 diary for May, starting with the 5th of May.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, we'll put it up on the screen.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've found it.


8 Q. Now, in the middle of our translation, the first part of the

9 entry, you say - and this is the programme you referred to yesterday as

10 well; you called it "Open Screen" - is that the same one that we can see

11 referred to there?

12 A. No, no. This is a radio programme called "Uvika Otvorena,"

13 [phoen] Radio Banja Luka. This is a radio show, whereas the other one is

14 a TV show.

15 Q. All right. Quite right. Anyhow, you say: "On this programme, on

16 the 5th of May we had the opportunity to hear from the mastermind behind

17 all this madness, Radoslav Brdjanin, who was invited to clear up some

18 things for the listeners of Radio Banja Luka." Then you talk about the

19 interview. "The man openly showed that he will risk absolutely

20 everything, and thousands of young lives for a sick dream of a state."

21 Then he talks about the Philippines air force, and then he says: "He only

22 wants one thing. He will not give up power at any cost. For the first

23 time, a Brdjanin has a chance to enter into history and for the first time

24 he can do anything he wants." And you go on to give examples.

25 Now, two things, please, sir. First, trying to put yourself back

Page 24778

1 into that day in May of 1992, what made you write the words "we had the

2 opportunity to hear from the mastermind behind all this madness"? What

3 was it that made you say in May of 1992, he was the mastermind?

4 A. It could hardly be put that way, that Radoslav Brdjanin was the

5 mastermind, that he conceived of all of this. He was one of the creators

6 of this self-defeating policy. This had to do with mobilisation, as far

7 as I could see now, rapidly as I glanced at it. He stood behind this

8 self-defeating policy. He was a prominent proponent of this policy. Now,

9 what made me say this? Everything he said in the media showed that this

10 was a man who did not hesitate to use big words, and big words lead to big

11 consequences. He labelled other ethnic groups, glorified his own. All of

12 that was sufficient reason for me to view him the way I did and to assess

13 him the way I did.

14 Q. You see, you don't say -- this is what I'm trying to see. I know

15 it's difficult 11, 12 years on to cast yourself back into the atmosphere

16 of the times. But you say Brdjanin was the mastermind, not one of the

17 masterminds, but the mastermind. Can you now recall what it was about him

18 that made you label him that?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, he has already answered that. He said

20 "It could hardly be put that way, that Brdjanin was the mastermind, that

21 he conceived of all this." He has already answered it. It is being asked

22 the same way again, and she is likely to get the same answer.

23 MS. KORNER: That may be so, but I'm entitled to ask the same

24 question.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: There is a difference, Mr. Ackerman. That's his

Page 24779

1 position now, today. What he's being asked to answer is then, 12 years

2 ago, when he wrote -- described Radoslav Brdjanin as the mastermind. Why

3 did he then describe him so?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: It's the same question. Look at line 19:44. Put

5 yourself back on that day in May 1992, what made you write the words? Why

6 can she ask it twice?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the same question, I agree with you, but it's

8 not the same answer. Because he answered the question from the present

9 perspective, today's perspective. He's answering the question with

10 hindsight. What he's being asked is to go back in time to 12 years ago,

11 remember that this is what he wrote, and he is being asked to explain why

12 he described Brdjanin as the mastermind then, not why he thinks whether he

13 now believes -- still believes that he was the mastermind. He told us

14 already that he doesn't believe he was the mastermind with hindsight.

15 Yes, Ms. Korner.


17 Q. If you can't now, if you can't recall what it was that made you

18 say that in 1992, then say so.

19 A. I can recall what made me say that in that year. It was

20 everything he said in public, all his inflammatory speeches after which

21 terrible things happened. When buildings belonging to members of other

22 ethnic groups were blown up, all of that led me to write this, that he was

23 guilty of that. No doubt about it. That is why I said that he was some

24 kind of a mastermind and bigtime troublemaker.

25 Q. All right. You see, you were asked a number of questions, and I

Page 24780

1 am looking now at page 48, about the quote that he decided on life and

2 death. And you then said: "I'm not saying he really wanted bad things to

3 happen to Croats and Muslims. I don't want to say that, but the way he

4 addressed himself, the way he spoke, and his public announcements in the

5 mass media, the way he spoke, he caused panic among the people. That's

6 what he did, and that's a fact." And you went on to explain that. And in

7 the end, you said in your view, he used the mass media as an instrument

8 for his own advancement. And that's page 52.

9 Now, how was he going to obtain his own advancement, as far as you

10 could see, through the things that you've described, the terrible things

11 that he was saying?

12 A. Well, how I could see it. One has to know all the people in

13 Bosnia, especially the ethnic group that Mr. Brdjanin belongs to. Among

14 the Serbs, it is their folk poetry, their verses that matter the most. By

15 what he did, he became part of this poetry, and that was so important.

16 You have the most telling example here of Mr. Milosevic. Everybody knows

17 what this is all about. He's no fool either, but he is struggling for his

18 place in history. So that's it. That's what Mr. Brdjanin wanted, too.

19 Q. Whether he personally disliked Muslims and Croats or privately

20 liked them, despite what he was saying in public, did that in your view

21 make any difference to the way that his utterances in public were

22 regarded?

23 A. An interesting question. I think this will surprise you. Many of

24 my friends told me that Mr. Brdjanin often visited a hodza in Vrbanja,

25 Jasarevic. He would go there rather often to have a cup of coffee with

Page 24781

1 him. As I said, when he was in a good mood, he would often say: "My

2 friends, Muslims." And indeed, this was so and cannot be denied. In some

3 of his speeches, he gave the impression of a very sober man, but it was as

4 if the fact that he had taken the floor, that he would talk to the

5 microphone, that he would change. Monologues would flow out of his mouth,

6 and everything that he said could have served to those who wanted to

7 settle accounts with the heathens, the pagans, as he sometimes put it.

8 Q. Did the fact that it might have been known to some people that he

9 did visit a hodza or have Muslim friends, did that make his threats any

10 less, as you've told, it likely to cause panic and terror?

11 A. No, no. In essence, you had a very peculiar situation. Every

12 Serb in Banja Luka had his own Muslim or Croat. Because the Serb was

13 aware of the fact that some of the bad things are going to happen, and

14 this Muslim or Croat that they would have in reserve, so to speak, could

15 later on serve to speak on the person's behalf and say that they haven't

16 done anything bad. For instance, you've had very bad people, villains,

17 who always have a few people who will speak in their favour, although they

18 have done bad things to dozens of people. So this is what you would call

19 the person that they keep in reserve.

20 Q. You were asked again, as you were asked the first time you

21 appeared in this court, about the authority of various people, Radic,

22 Vukic, Kupresanin, and Brdjanin. I just want to stick with Brdjanin.

23 When Brdjanin spoke in public, on the radio or on television, did he have

24 authority?

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that question should include a time

Page 24782

1 frame, because the indictment is time specific.

2 MS. KORNER: All right.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Objection sustained.


5 Q. In 1992, please, sir, between April and September?

6 A. Yes, he certainly did have authority because in those turbulent

7 times when something is in the making, you take the most prominent people

8 to present what your agenda is, and he was a prominent person and a

9 popular politician among the Serbs at the time. And he certainly did have

10 great authority.

11 Q. All right. Now, you were asked about the -- by Judge Janu again,

12 and this is at page 64, about when these statements were being made about

13 Muslims either staying -- non-Serbs either staying or leaving, whether the

14 population -- the agencies for replacement, exchange of population were

15 operation. And your reply was: "This would have been at the beginning of

16 1992. Yes, certainly."

17 In fact, can you jump ahead, please, to the 27th of May entry in

18 your diary. There's one aspect I left out, if you can look at it, the

19 27th of May, please. Yes, page -- it's -- the page in the translation is

20 L0054912. Sir, it's quite a long way into your entry. You discuss -- if

21 you find the bit where you refer to the Esad Midzic School.

22 A. Please go ahead with your question. I will be meanwhile looking

23 for it.

24 Q. Yes, because you record -- it's a very simple point. You record

25 there that Brdjanin had announced on Krajina news that Muslims and Croats

Page 24783

1 had to move out of Banja Luka so that refugees might have somewhere to be

2 housed and a special organ has been formed within the Crisis Staff to work

3 on population exchange.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All I'm asking you from the beginning of 1992 until his

6 announcement, is that the first time you can recall there was any kind of

7 an agency for population exchange?

8 A. No, certainly wasn't the first time because refugees were already

9 arriving at the time, and a place had to be found for them to be put up

10 at. So there was mention of them earlier, before the -- even before these

11 April events, before the putsch that I talked about. Once they took over

12 the power, people saw what was brewing, what was going to happen, and

13 realising where this policy would lead, where this authority that has

14 taken over the power in Banja Luka was going, they started leaving the

15 town.

16 Q. I understand that, sir. Sorry, it's my fault. What I mean is I

17 know -- we've heard evidence that people were leaving before this. But

18 until the 27th of May, had there been an official agency of any kind set

19 up to organise the exodus of non-Serbs and the influx of Serbs? Any

20 government agency?

21 A. There were, for instance -- there was this agency receiving Serbs,

22 and following the putsch, as I called it, which took place in April,

23 Banja Luka was hermetically shut off. The people knew that there was no

24 existence for them there, and certainly there must have been agencies

25 where they went and -- because they decided to renounce on all of their

Page 24784

1 property. I, for instance, had to renounce some of my property, even

2 people were asked to sign a paper saying that they're leaving their house

3 to the state in order to be able to leave. I luckily did not have to do

4 that. I left my apartment fully furnished, and it all remained there.

5 Q. All right. I'll leave this topic, because it's there for all to

6 see anyhow.

7 I just want to deal with, then, please with the number of times we

8 see Mr. Brdjanin appearing. Tuesday, you record him appearing on the 5th

9 of May. If you go, please, to the following day, the 6th of May, do you

10 record in your diary another press conference with Brdjanin, page -- I

11 think that's the 6th of May. If we go to the following day -- I'm sorry,

12 that was the still the 6th of May. Another press conference, L0051714,

13 and this is where Brdjanin is informing journalists about the decisions

14 which must be implemented. And then on the subject of the television

15 programmes that you were talking about, could you go to the -- it's the

16 same entry, the page is L0051717. It's the same day. Could you find,

17 sir, in your original diary the part where you talked about a TV Novi Sad

18 show. You were asked yesterday about TV --

19 A. Which date is that?

20 Q. That's on the 6th of May.

21 A. The 6th of May. I've found it.

22 Q. Where you talk about a TV Novi Sad programme about the 1941 raid

23 in Novi Sad when thousands of Serbs and Jews were killed in the most

24 unscrupulous manner. "Again, pictures of terror and horror, suffering,

25 tears and survivors' testimonies all over again. The documentary of the

Page 24785

1 massacre continues after the news. The massacre in Backa followed by a

2 conversation in the studio about the tragic event and the film. Guests in

3 the studio include historian Zvonimir Golubovic and Dr. Raskovic."

4 When they had these discussions, how did they deal with it? In

5 other words, how were those events in these films you were seeing about

6 1941 dealt with?

7 A. How were they dealt with? They started publishing documents and

8 showing TV programmes featuring killed people, torched homes, and then

9 these reputedly educated people give their comments on these footages, how

10 Serbs are victims of torture and slaughtering and how they will be

11 victimised. And the way I, as a viewer, see this is these people should

12 know it because they're educated. They should know something about it.

13 What they wanted to create was ethnic herds which would then set out to

14 conquer whatever one thought belonged to him. This was the purpose that

15 these programmes served, to transform the people into a herd that will

16 follow its leader. Therefore, to avoid them -- to avoid them -- to

17 prevent them to think with their own head.

18 Q. All right. Thank you, sir.

19 Now, you mentioned today a gentleman named Borivoje Sendic, I

20 think he's known as. Could you have a look at your diary for the 25th of

21 May.

22 A. Why did I have to write this much? Well, I've found it.

23 Q. Well, it is at least a record, sir, of a turbulent year. 25th of

24 May, the paragraph begins: "And who is Marko Beckovic"? Have you

25 found --

Page 24786

1 A. Marko Vesovic, you mean.

2 Q. At the top of that paragraph you talk about a journalist whose

3 editor-in-chief is Miro Mladjenovic. "If Veljko Milankovic is to be

4 believed, Milankovic was visited by members of Bosanska Gradiska Circle of

5 Serbian Sisters." On the 24th --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... "reported in yesterday's

8 issue. He is a real soldier, I have to boast, says

9 Lieutenant Veljko Milankovic, that I had two minister inside my unit. The

10 then-ARKrajina Information Minister Miro Mladjenovic and Sendic, the

11 forestry minister." Is that the same Sendic?

12 A. Mladjenovic?

13 Q. No, Sendic.

14 A. Yes, that is the one and the same Miro Mladjenovic who was the

15 editor of Glas.

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. And then Borivoje Sendic, yes.

18 Q. So Sendic was a member of one of these paramilitary units, and

19 then forestry minister. It's one and the same person, is it?

20 A. That is right.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned Professor Lazarevic as a man of

22 authority. Did Professor Lazarevic hold any political positions?

23 A. I think he was the president of the Serbian intellectuals in

24 Banja Luka, that is the title he held. It seems so. He was sort of a

25 leader of the entire group. I don't know which were the functions that he

Page 24787

1 held, but he was extremely poisonous and open in his speech.

2 Q. Is that the gentleman whose nickname was Gugo, Gugo Lazarevic?

3 A. Yes, Predrag "Gugo" Lazarevic who became famous for saying that:

4 "Today, people can be distinguished by their birth certificate."

5 Q. Meaning what?

6 A. This meant that you are a person if you're an Orthodox, but you're

7 not a person if you belong to any other faith or if you're a Muslim.

8 Q. Now, finally, on this replacement of Mladjenovic, could you have a

9 look for a moment, please, at P2696, please. Didn't bring any exhibits

10 with you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Probably. We can make use of yours, Ms. Korner?

12 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm about to have the same problem. They don't

14 have an exhibit that I need. They can't find it anywhere.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, you are still in time, Mr. Ackerman. Perhaps

16 if you have a list of the exhibits you are going to need, we can do

17 something about it.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 2696 is with the registry.

19 Correction, it is not with the registry.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we make use of your document, Ms. Korner?

21 MS. KORNER: We can.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it has been provided. I apologise

23 for that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay. It's bound to happen sometimes. It's

25 not a problem.

Page 24788


2 Q. All right. Can you just have a quick look at that, read through

3 that.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember reading that at the time?

6 A. Definitely I read it at the time. I was interested in this, and I

7 must have read it.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we have the English version of the document put

9 on the ELMO, please, so at least we know what he is talking about.

10 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour.

11 Q. All right. You also recorded entries in your diary about the

12 removal of Mr. Mladjenovic and the speeches made by Kupresanin.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, they can be seen - I'm not going to put

14 them up - on the 10th of August --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 MS. KORNER: -- and the 11th -- they are both on the 10th of

17 August, so a bit later.

18 Q. Was the reason -- can you now, without -- I don't want to show you

19 the entries, but perhaps I can just lead on this because it's in the

20 entries. Was the reason for his removal because it was felt that Glas was

21 not properly reporting the SDS policies? Or one of the reasons anyhow?

22 A. Possibly so. But I think this was a matter of secondary

23 importance. There were two groups of people who were basically stealing.

24 They were grabbers, robbers. There was this group of Mladjenovic where

25 this figure who was a criminal who was being promoted as almost a saint,

Page 24789

1 whereas Veljko was here to protect Mladjenovic. These people felt the

2 need to control this particular paper as well. This was a merciless

3 struggle between two factions, let's put it that way. They all swore

4 their allegiance to a Serbian ethnicity, to being Serb, but basically they

5 were fighting and struggling for their own private interests.

6 Q. All right. On that topic, then, there's a further Glas article,

7 P291. Your Honour, I'll hand it, and we will put the other one on the


9 JUDGE AGIUS: How much longer do you have?

10 MS. KORNER: That's it, Your Honour. That's the last document.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I was going to suggest, Mr. Ackerman, that we have

12 the break straight away so that we regroup the documents that you need.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: There are only two of them, Your Honour, and I have

14 one of them here. So we're only missing one document. It's not that

15 difficult.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay, thank you.


18 Q. This is an article of Glas, 26th of July, so approximately ten

19 days later. Could you turn it over, usher, because it's on the backside.

20 The English I want turned over.

21 "Where we see speaking of Banja Luka's intellectuals who had

22 publicly protested against the town's current government, Brdjanin" -- I

23 can't read that if you do that. I haven't got the contact lenses.

24 Brdjanin said: `I believe that many at the Glas newspaper think the way I

25 do. They're all Serbs, they all support the Serbian cause, but I cannot

Page 24790

1 understand those who give so much space to the old defeated forces [the

2 communists-- author's remark] in the paper for disseminating the communist

3 notions of a so-called union and brotherhood and unity, even though it is

4 evident that we can no longer coexist in this region." And then he goes

5 on, "'What does Mr. Mico Carevic want? What kind of policy are he and

6 other Banja Luka intellectuals pursuing?'" And then he goes on about the

7 corridor, proof of the total genocide of the Serbian people is being

8 prepared in Kozarac.

9 Do you remember reading that article at the time?

10 A. Yes, I do. I recall this title, the administrative board of

11 Drnis, where it says that in almost 55 per cent of the companies, Croats

12 and Muslims had been removed, dismissed. I think this is something that

13 Brdjanin did talk about at the time. And this Cvijetic from Electronika,

14 he criticised him for the fact he had people of other ethnicities in his

15 company, in larger numbers than he should have.

16 Q. The point I want to concentrate on at this moment is this: There

17 Brdjanin seems to be saying that the paper or those who give so much space

18 to the old defeated --

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that's pretty leading.

20 MS. KORNER: That's true. I'm sorry, you're right. He's my own

21 witness. I got so used to cross-examining.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Your Honour, please.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please rephrase your question, Ms. Korner.


25 Q. Can you help as to what Mr. Brdjanin was referring to there?

Page 24791

1 A. Well, I think he meant what he said.

2 Q. Yes, but what was he talking about: "I cannot understand those

3 who give so much space to the old defeated forces." Are you able to

4 assist on what he was referring to there? If not, say so straight away,

5 sir.

6 A. I do know what he was talking about. They were ostensibly all of

7 them new democrats, but they were basically autocrats, and they

8 transformed themselves into tyrants. All of this was old and bad for

9 them. They were promoting new things that turned out to be far worse than

10 the old things. And these were just phrases, hackneyed phrases that they

11 were using. Well, you see, we were lead by those people and this is where

12 they brought us to. This is the point where we are now.

13 MS. KORNER: All right. I don't think I can take it much further.

14 Thank you very much, sir.

15 That's all I have, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Should we have a break now or shall we start

17 straight away? How long do you think you will take?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Probably about the same amount of time Ms. Korner

19 did.

20 Your Honour, the document is DB344. Nine copies of it were

21 brought to this courtroom, three of them were given to you, to the Judges,

22 one to the Prosecutor, one to the legal officer, one to the registry, for

23 all the booths. Somewhere in this building we ought to be able to find

24 it.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Can I please get a date for that document?

Page 24792












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 24793

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Just to be real cautious, I think what I'll also do

2 is send Mr. Vujic up to my flat to get a copy of it because it's important

3 and I want to use it, and I have a right to use it.

4 MS. KORNER: Mr. Ackerman is saying all this, Your Honour, for

5 this reason, I sent an email this morning saying one of the documents I

6 was going to object to was this particular document. And for the reasons

7 I expressed, namely, that it's a part document, that we want to know where

8 it came from, and we wanted the rest of the document, please, before it

9 could be used.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I think you're probably thinking about a different

11 document.

12 MS. KORNER: I don't think I am.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: This is a newspaper article.

14 MS. KORNER: Correct. Which says "to be continued" and it starts

15 in the middle of the whole thing.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: At least that's some evidence that I brought it

17 here.

18 MS. KORNER: Yeah, well, I'd like the whole thing, please.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: They've got it, why didn't the registry have it? I

20 don't know.

21 MS. KORNER: No, no. We got it from you a long time ago.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: You have an exhibit number, you said?

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, it's DB344. It's on the exhibit list that I

24 have given to you, and to the registry, and I have given the documents

25 along with it. It's a mystery to me. That makes me think a lot of my

Page 24794

1 exhibits have been just thrown away or something. I don't know.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, we'll track it down. We'll have a break, a

3 25-minute break starting from now.

4 Can we reduce the break to 20 minutes. I just want to make sure

5 that you have all the time you require, Mr. Ackerman, and that we will

6 finish today.

7 --- Recess taken at 5.24 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 5.46 p.m.

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, nobody seems to want to bring

10 Mr. Brdjanin back to Court.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, please.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

13 MS. KORNER: Do Your Honours now have a copy of Mr. Ackerman's

14 proposed?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we do have a copy of Mr. Ackerman's DB344. But

16 in the short time available I did try to see whether there is -- what the

17 records are. There is a record of 343 being tendered and admitted, and

18 345, but not of 344. And it seems there was a question already

19 when -- because you did --

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we don't have a record of 343 being

21 admitted because it's one of the other things I objected to.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We have a record of 343 and 345 --

23 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... because our

24 records don't show that.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's stick to this.

Page 24795

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's a very simple objection, as Your

2 Honours can see, you don't need to read the whole thing. It's from,

3 apparently, a publication called Patriot. The article is dated the 12th

4 of August 2003. It's apparently part 2 of 9. We don't appear to have

5 been provided with the other 7.

6 As I understand it, Mr. Ackerman is putting it forward as the

7 truth of the contents. You are to take, and the witness presumable is to

8 take, as truthful, Mr. Sendic's account of events 11 years later. Your

9 Honour, that's in our submission is objectionable. It's not a publication

10 that came into being at the time of these events, unlike the other

11 newspaper articles which we have put in and other articles which

12 Mr. Ackerman has put in, which we have not objected to. If it is to be

13 said that Mr. Sendic is to be looked for as a witness of truth or people

14 are to be cross-examined on the basis that this is truthful evidence, then

15 Mr. Sendic should be called as a witness. And that's my objection.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm a little bit surprised you've asked me to

18 respond to such a fatuous objection, but since you have, I will.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: You seem to be repeating what Ms. Korner said

20 yesterday.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry if I was. I didn't mean to be.

22 Your Honour, I don't know if we're going to change the Rule, then

23 of course I need to respond. But it was my understanding that documents

24 are all admitted and that you sort them out in the end as to what weight

25 they have or what value they have and that was my understanding. That's

Page 24796

1 the way all the Prosecution's exhibits were admitted. I think I've

2 objected to well over a hundred of them. They have all been admitted on

3 the basis that you're professional Judges; you'll sort them all out,

4 you'll look at them and say what the value is. I think if that rule is

5 being changed, I think I can make an argument to the admissibility of this

6 document. If it's not, then I really don't think I need to say more.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you have to say about the point of

8 Ms. Korner that this is only part 2 of a 9-part --

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the rest of the parts are absolutely

10 irrelevant to any issue in this case as near as I can tell. This is the

11 only part of the whole thing that mentions Mr. Brdjanin and talks about a

12 role that was played by Mr. Brdjanin with regard to this particular issue

13 of paramilitary organisations. The rest of it is -- would just be

14 surplusage in this record and would have no value to anyone.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: It's a public source. The Prosecution can look at

17 it and read it up to their heart's content, just like other public source

18 documents.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I do -- this is not in the same

20 category, and Mr. Ackerman knows that full well, as any of the documents

21 we've put in. What is objectionable is Mr. Ackerman presumably

22 cross-examining the witness, say, on the basis this is a true, accurate,

23 truthful account. This is one where it was open to Mr. Ackerman in his 65

24 list of witnesses, 65 witnesses on his 65 ter list to call. But if it's

25 going to be cross-examined on the basis this is a truthful account, we

Page 24797

1 have no way of disputing it without having the witness here. But it's

2 wrong in our submission that it should be put to the witness that this is

3 truthful. The most that can be said about this, this is somebody's

4 account apparently written in a newspaper 11 years after the event, and

5 may or may not be accurate.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Korner.

7 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: The position as we see it as follows: We will allow

9 this document to be admitted into evidence with the caveat that we have

10 appended to several other documents and with the understanding that this

11 is not to be presented to the witness as God's truth, as something which

12 has been established, et cetera. It's just the opinion of the author and

13 it has to be put to him as that. And with also the understanding that if

14 a request is made for the tendering -- for the production of the rest of

15 the article, in other words, part 1 and parts 3 to 9, because this is part

16 2 of 9 parts.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I formally make that request. I would

18 like to be supplied with the other 9 parts of Mr. Sendic's remarkable

19 account.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: The other eight parts. Do you have the other eight

21 parts, Mr. Ackerman?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think we do. I don't want to

23 represent we do. I think we have the issues of Patriot that have all

24 those parts. But it is a public-source document.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: But you understand because I'm not stupid, I'm not

Page 24798

1 speaking to an inexperienced lawyer. If the witness in answering the

2 question tells me: "Judge, this is only part 2 of a series of articles

3 numbering 9, and I want to see the other 8 before I can give you my

4 assessment," I'm not going to deprive him of that. And I can't. I simply

5 can't do that. So please try to procure for us the remaining parts of the

6 article. And we can admit the witness now, hoping that --

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Wait a minute, Your Honour. I have another matter.

8 I would like you to apply the same rule, Your Honour, to Prosecution's

9 P2730 that was admitted today, because now there's a new rule.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Which new rule, Mr. Ackerman?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: The one you just announced. So I want the

12 Prosecution to supply the real memorandum from the Serbian academy, not

13 this Croatian piece of propaganda. If you look, Your Honour, at just the

14 first page, 289 -- well, the first page says: "Roots of Serbian

15 aggression." That's not in the original memorandum. The second page

16 says: "All footnotes accompanying this text are by the editor." So it's

17 been added to, so it's not the memorandum. It's some creation of some

18 Croatian organisation to trash Serbs.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, but again --

20 MR. ACKERMAN: You let that you in without -- I objected. You let

21 it in without any qualification at all.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Instead of grabbing the bull from the horns, you

23 grabbed the bull from the tail, Mr. Ackerman. This is being presented for

24 what it is, and it will taken for what it is. I think Ms. Korner is fully

25 aware this is not the original and that it is being presented as a part of

Page 24799

1 publication that comes from Zagreb. The weight that we will give it, we

2 will tell you at the end of the story, not now.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm perfectly happy if Mr. Ackerman

4 tells me he has at home a Serbian copy of this, I'm perfectly content to

5 ask to have his copied and we will replace the exhibit with the Serbian

6 version. No objection at all.

7 May I just mention one other thing, Your Honour, I think you will

8 have to check your records if you were told that 345 had been admitted.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I was told by my secretary, now ...

10 MS. KORNER: I can tell you, I know that's wrong because it

11 purports to be a statement from General Talic signed on the 27th of

12 December 2002. So I know for a fact that has never been admitted into

13 evidence.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: We have seen it for sure.

15 MS. KORNER: How it ever got admitted, I do not know.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman still has the time to ask for the

17 admission of those documents, those exhibits if they hadn't been admitted

18 as yet.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, my plan is before I rest the Defence

20 case is to request the admission of all the exhibits. And I'm not

21 prepared to do that today, because ...

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not waste more time. Let's bring in --

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, if necessary, he can be here tomorrow, I

24 have been told. He's not due to fly back until Saturday.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Mr. Ackerman will do us the favour of

Page 24800

1 finishing with the witness in the three-quarters of an hour that we have.

2 Yes, Mr. Ackerman, will you try to finish in three-quarters of an hour?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll will try. I won't guarantee that I can do it;

4 I might not be able to.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Fine. In that case, we'll sit tomorrow

6 morning.

7 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:

9 Q. Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Sir, when you first started this morning, you had with you a

11 little white notebook that I can see still sitting up there on the desk.

12 I only have one question I want to ask you, and I do that with some

13 hesitation. Can you tell me if Mr. Brdjanin's name appears anywhere in

14 that notebook?

15 A. No.

16 Q. No, it does not, or no, you can't tell me?

17 A. No, no, it's not there, no.

18 Q. All right. Thank you.

19 A. You can have a look.

20 Q. I really don't want to, and I'm glad you gave me that answer. You

21 saved me that grief.

22 You talked about Glas being -- the questions I'm going to ask you

23 now are about some things you said today, and then we'll go into some

24 things you said yesterday. You talked today about Glas being a racist

25 newspaper. I want to know if you would describe, after a certain period,

Page 24801

1 the newspaper Oslobodjenje as also being a racist newspaper.

2 A. If you are referring to the period that is being discussed here, I

3 cannot say anything specifically about Oslobodjenje because I did not have

4 any opportunity to receive it. I haven't had any insight. In Banja Luka,

5 you couldn't obtain it actually.

6 Q. That's fine. Thank you.

7 You spoke today about an incident with a bus at Jajce and what was

8 described as an ambush, and you were talking about the difference between

9 the report that appeared in Glas and a report that appeared -- that was

10 broadcast on Banja Luka Radio. And one of them talked about it as an

11 ambush; one of them talked about it as a skirmish that broke out after the

12 bus was stopped. Is that a fair statement of the two reports?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And there were JNA reservists that were killed in that event,

15 whatever it was, weren't there?

16 A. Yes. Six reservists of the Yugoslav People's Army were killed,

17 and one active policeman from the public security service from Jajce.

18 Q. Now, what you told the Chamber was that neither of the accounts,

19 either the one in Glas nor the one on Banja Luka Radio, was the truth;

20 that what had actually happened was that the JNA reservists had opened

21 fire and other people had fired back. I think that's basically what you

22 told the Chamber. And the first thing I want to ask you is, is that your

23 understanding?

24 A. No. I had the opportunity of meeting a man who happened to be on

25 that bus. It was a regular bus line between Banja Luka and Bugojno. And

Page 24802

1 when they were stopped for a regular checkup by the checkpoint in Jajce,

2 then this policeman, I guess it was a Croatian policeman, boarded this

3 bus, and then this man who was telling me about this said that this is

4 when the reservists started shooting for some reason. And then these

5 people, who were outside, started shooting at the bus. So that is how

6 these casualties came about. Radio Banja Luka reported that there are six

7 wounded persons, obviously civilians because there was no mention of

8 reservists and they were transferred to the hospital in Jajce. That is

9 what was written, too. Five were transferred to the hospital, but six

10 were wounded. Five were transferred to the hospital in Jajce, and their

11 lives were not in danger, so that was the report.

12 Q. And the story about what happened at the scene is a story that you

13 got from somebody who claimed to have been there. Correct?

14 A. Yes. A man who was there and who literally disappeared then. So

15 everybody was worried where he was and what had happened to him. And he

16 had actually gone to work somewhere on territory that was under Croatian

17 control, if I'm not mistaken. And then he appeared much, much later and

18 explained the story.

19 Q. Tell the Chamber his ethnicity, please.

20 A. He's a Serb. I'm sorry. As for the diary, I actually have what

21 he gave me in writing about this particular event, but I cannot remember

22 where it is right now. He wrote this in his very own hand, how all of

23 this happened, where he was, why he did not call home, and that's why they

24 thought that he had gone missing and so on.

25 Q. You know, do you not, that there was an official investigation of

Page 24803

1 this incident, don't you?

2 A. I really don't know that.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. I don't know. I know that Glas wrote about it, and Radio Banja

5 Luka said that an investigation was underway, but they did not provide any

6 details.

7 Q. At page 11 of today's transcript, you said this: "I looked at all

8 the newspapers I could get my hands on." Correct?

9 A. Yes. Yes, that is true.

10 Q. Do you know anything at all about a newspaper called

11 Kozarski Vjesnik?

12 A. Unfortunately I don't. I just bought Glas actually. You see, at

13 that time my pay was a disaster, my income was a disaster. I couldn't

14 work. And a pack of cigarettes cost 500 million dinars. So I would just

15 buy Glas every now and then; and if some friends would buy other

16 newspapers, then they would bring them to me, and then I would read them

17 very carefully. Of course, that includes Belgrade papers.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Try to restrict your answer for the question,

19 because if you go beyond you will never finish.

20 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.


22 Q. Did you ever see a newspaper called Kozarski Vjesnik? Whether you

23 ever read one or not, did you ever see one?

24 A. No, I did not.

25 Q. All right. Thank you.

Page 24804

1 You told us that the Serbs were all armed, and you made this

2 statement: "Even children had grenades." Did you ever personally see a

3 child with a grenade?

4 A. Well, to be quite frank, I didn't see any such thing. But for

5 example, where children were throwing grenades in 1992 and 1993, that was

6 shown then.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Shown where?


9 Q. What was shown where children were shown throwing grenades in

10 1992, 1993? What are you talking about?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Children threw a grenade in front of

13 Boska, and tens of passersby were injured. Glas wrote a lot about this.

14 These were young boys, schoolboys.


16 Q. And that was actually reported in Glas?

17 A. Yes, that is what was reported.

18 Q. Do you remember whether it was 1992 or 1993?

19 A. I cannot remember now. There has been too many things. I can't

20 remember every detail. But it was in Glas.

21 Q. And did a child throw this grenade, or did several children throw

22 several grenades?

23 A. No, I think it was one grenade, one grenade. There were one or

24 two boys, and they threw this one grenade.

25 Q. So when you told this Chamber that "even children were armed with

Page 24805

1 hand grenades," you were referring to this one incident where one child

2 threw one hand grenade? And from that, you concluded that "even children

3 were armed with hand grenades." Is that true?

4 A. Again, I would like to correct this. Not grenades, one grenade.

5 And children were armed. There are many examples that when they threw

6 things like that, then somebody would lose an arm, somebody would lose a

7 leg. Buzevic, Petricevic --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's answer Mr. Ackerman's question. Mr. Ackerman

9 is suggesting to you that when you earlier on said that children were

10 armed with hand grenades, what you actually had in mind or what you were

11 basing your statement upon was only this one incident where only one child

12 threw only one hand grenade, and there are no other instances

13 of -- similar instances that you are aware of. Is that correct?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not correct. That is not

15 correct. Children did have such things. Parents had such things. And

16 children would secretly take them. And that is not the only case of a

17 terrible thing like that happening because there was a grenade in a

18 child's hands.


20 Q. And these cases of children with grenades were all reported in

21 Glas, and that's how you know about them. Correct?

22 A. No, no. I don't know whether they were all recorded. I repeat

23 once again, I did not get every copy of Glas. I heard of some cases.

24 Friends told me about them. And then also the relatives of these children

25 told me about such things, and also such things were written about.

Page 24806

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's jump to something different.


3 Q. Let me ask you is this: I know you don't know Mr. Brdjanin. Let

4 me ask you if you know that Mr. Brdjanin's two brothers are both married

5 to women who are Croat. Did you know that?

6 A. I didn't know that, to tell you the truth, and I don't know why

7 you're telling me that.

8 Q. I'm going to ask you another question: Did you know that

9 Brdjanin's wife's family, there are mixed marriages involving Muslims?

10 Did you know that?

11 A. I didn't know about that. I was not interested in Brdjanin's

12 origins and in his life. I was interested in what he was saying.

13 Q. We're going to be here in the morning if you continue to go beyond

14 the answer. You answered the question that you didn't know about it.

15 That was a complete answer. If you insist on going with these long

16 answers, we will be here a long time because I have a lot of questions to

17 ask you. We can do this quickly, or we can do it for a long time.

18 I now want to ask you about the report that you heard that you

19 said some people laughed at, that Brdjanin said: "We'll throw the

20 children in the river, and if they swim out, they're Serbs". Don't you

21 think, if it's true that he had all these mixed marriages in his life,

22 that it's very unlikely that Mr. Brdjanin said such a thing?

23 A. I don't think so. Well, Hitler had Jewish blood in his veins.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman. Is there a problem with the

25 transcript?

Page 24807

1 MR. ACKERMAN: None whatsoever, Your Honour. I'm just finding a

2 place, because I want to refer to it.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought there was a problem with the transcript.


5 Q. I want to refer to a question and answer you were asked today.

6 Judge Agius asked you, page 18, line 14, "do you recall ever having seen

7 Mr. Brdjanin or having heard Mr. Brdjanin deal with the topic of these

8 camps," referring to concentration camps, "of camps in general or in

9 particular?" Your answer was: "No, no, I can't recall that." Correct?

10 A. Correct, except what he said, we have the right to have camps.

11 Q. Well, but when you were first asked the question, what you said

12 was: "No, I can't recall that." Then the Judge say to you: "You don't

13 recall Mr. Brdjanin being interviewed on TV, for example, on these camps?"

14 And then you said: "Oh, yeah, I was wrong. He did say something once."

15 Correct?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Which line are you?

17 MS. KORNER: It was one long answer.


19 Q. You don't recall Mr. Brdjanin being interviewed on TV, for

20 example, on these camps? Answer: "I cannot recall that." And then you

21 said: "On one occasion, I think he said on television --"

22 MS. KORNER: No.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm reading it. Just wait. Give me a chance.

24 "No, I don't think -- I'm sure he said on one occasion if the Russians and

25 the Germans could have camps, why shouldn't we, the Serbs, be able to have

Page 24808

1 camps. I think the broadcast was called Otvoreni Ekran," and then there's

2 a caret, "or something like that." And then you said: "I think I heard

3 that on one occasion." So you're just doing a lot of guessing there,

4 aren't you?

5 A. I know that he said that. I did not say that I made a mistake.

6 He did not talk about the camps or the actual establishment of the camps.

7 I stand by what I said. I don't know that he said that. I do know if he

8 said that Germans and Russians have camps, why would we Serbs not have the

9 right to have them too. That he did say.


11 Q. But when the Judge asked you do you recall ever having seen

12 Mr. Brdjanin or having heard Mr. Brdjanin deal with the topic of these

13 camps, of camps in general or in particular, why did you tell the Judge

14 that you couldn't recall it? Why?

15 A. I do not recall that he talked camps in the sense of the actual

16 establishment of the camps, the number of inmates, et cetera, if I have to

17 clarify it. But that he did say at one point, if Germans and Russians,

18 then why we Serbs not have them? I remember that. I remember he said

19 that, and I saw that programme, too.

20 MS. KORNER: Is it being suggested that Mr. Brdjanin never said

21 this?


23 MS. KORNER: That he never said anything about Germans or --

24 MR. ACKERMAN: It's being suggested that this witness never heard

25 Mr. Brdjanin said that.

Page 24809

1 MS. KORNER: That's different. So it's not being suggested

2 Mr. Brdjanin never said it.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm not conceding that Mr. Brdjanin ever said it.

4 If that's what your asking for, you'll not get a concession from me about

5 that. I'm just cross-examining the witness. That's all.

6 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, it needs to be clear. For a

7 very clear reason, I think there's an exhibit on this.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: There is an exhibit on this. Let's not discuss in

9 the presence of the witness.

10 MS. KORNER: I just want to be absolutely clear that the

11 suggestion being made to this witness is only that he never heard it, not

12 that it was never said.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness has just reiterated that he saw the

14 TV programme himself.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm conducting a cross-examination,

16 testing the credibility of the witness. That's all I'm doing.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. That's why I'm allowing you to

18 proceed, Mr. Ackerman.


20 Q. Question from Judge Agius about your diary of 28 August 1992,

21 where you talked about Mr. Brdjanin being under a great deal of pressure,

22 you told the Judge that a lot of people were coming to Mr. Brdjanin asking

23 him for help, and you mentioned people from his community in Popovac that

24 were coming and asking him for help. And that was, in fact, true. I mean

25 there were a number of coming to Brdjanin in the fall of 1992 requesting

Page 24810

1 help, weren't there?

2 A. Well, I think they came before that and after that, because if

3 somebody is in a high position, who would not turn to him? I mean,

4 they're not going to turn to me; they're going to turn to people who can

5 do something for them.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, you could have answered the question by just

7 saying "yes."


9 Q. And among the people that were coming to ask him for help were

10 Muslims and Croats, and he was in fact helping Muslims and Croats on

11 occasion, wasn't he?

12 A. I don't know about that. I don't know whether he helped them

13 officially. On a personal basis, perhaps. I allow for that possibility.

14 Q. I would like to -- this is a question that kind of baffles me.

15 Because I've spent quite a bit of time in former Yugoslavia, and I am

16 unable to tell the difference between Croats and Muslims and Serbs by

17 looking at them. And is that because I'm an American and didn't grow up

18 there? Can people who grew up there just immediately tell by looking at

19 someone whether they're a Muslim or a Croat or a Serb?

20 A. Of course they can't.

21 Q. Cannot?

22 A. They cannot. No.

23 Q. Then answer this question for me, because this is what baffles me:

24 You told the Judges that when the SOS was in town, they would stop Croats

25 and Muslims and take jewellery and money from Croats and Muslims. How did

Page 24811












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 24812

1 they know that they were Croats and Muslims?

2 A. Rifles, Mr. Ackerman, rifles. Rifles and an ID.

3 Q. So they would stop people who didn't have rifles and take their

4 money and jewellery, no matter whether they were Muslims or Croats, no

5 matter what they were? Is that what you're saying?

6 A. No. No. They stopped everybody, Serbs included. But if you had

7 the right kind of name on your ID, then you could go on. But then if you

8 did not have the right name, then you would be mistreated. So then on the

9 basis of these IDs, these personal documents that people carried around,

10 they would see who was who. You were not allowed to move about without

11 such IDs.

12 Q. You told us that the SOS made 10 demands and 11 were implemented.

13 Can you tell us the ten demands, and tell us what of those demands were

14 implemented. Do you know?

15 A. Everything that was demanded was carried out. Let's be clear

16 about that. Please try to show some understanding and do not split hairs.

17 I'm not sure that it was 10. Maybe it was 12. Maybe it was 13. But I

18 mean, this staff that was formed, they met an extra demand, even one that

19 was not put forth originally.

20 Q. Well, but I want to ask you the question. Tell me the demands

21 that you know that were carried out. Number one, what was carried out;

22 number two, what was carried out. Tell me.

23 A. Well, let's say this ethnic levelling. I mean, that was carried

24 out so well that even some Serbs lost their jobs because they were not

25 good enough Serbs.

Page 24813

1 Q. All right. That's one. What's another one?

2 A. Well, I can't remember all of them. I mean -- well, please, don't

3 make me guess now. It was so long ago. But all of it is written down

4 here. All of it was written down specifically, and now if you expect me

5 after 12 years to know each and every one of their demands, well, sorry,

6 but I don't have that kind of memory.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: If you have them written in your diary, you have my

8 authorisation to look at them and refresh your memory, and then you can

9 answer Mr. Ackerman's question.

10 MS. KORNER: And Mr. Ackerman should point him to the part of the

11 diary. Otherwise, this is a truly unfair cross-examination.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: But the witness is being asked actually to refresh

13 his memory.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no idea where it is in the diary. He said

15 it in response to your question this morning, Judge.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It would be 3rd April, 4th April, 5th April. I

17 don't think you need to look any further. That's speaking out of memory.

18 I may be wrong, but I think -- I don't think I'm wrong.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here it is.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So if you have the 10 points there, or 11 or 12,

21 whatever the number is --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here they are. Under 1, that's in

23 the territory of the Banja Luka security centre, which covers a much wider

24 area -- oh, excuse me. Should I repeat what I've just said?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Do we have go through one by one,

Page 24814

1 Mr. Ackerman, now that he has found them?

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I only want him to tell me the ones that he knows

3 that were carried out. He said there were 11. I want to know what those

4 11 are.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go through them, sir. And you can refer to the

6 entry, the date, and then draw the conclusion ourselves.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, for instance, the demand to

8 prosecute war profiteers, looters, and deserters once their actions came

9 out into open and their names were known. This demand was put forward and

10 adopted, but these people were never actually arrested.

11 Under 4, the request for the removal in the banks --


13 Q. Let me stop you on that. That's the second one. That's the

14 request to prosecute war profiteers -- just let me finish my question.

15 The request to --

16 A. No, that's the third.

17 Q. -- And with regard to that one, Mr. Brdjanin agreed with that and

18 supported that, didn't he?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. That's two. Now we talked about staff levelling, and we

21 talked about --

22 A. No, that was under number 3. That was number 3, concerning the

23 profiteers. Number 2 was something else.

24 Q. Okay. Go ahead. What was number 2?

25 A. Number 2 was that the deadline was very tight. They were supposed

Page 24815

1 to do it by 16th of April, Monday, for the people to sign the loyalty

2 oath, of loyalty to Republika Srpska. I think this was about the insignia

3 that was being imposed on the police. This was a way of forcing the

4 Muslim and Croat members of the police to put on these new insignia and to

5 sign an oath of loyalty to Republika Srpska if they wanted to continue

6 working for the police. That was under 2.

7 Q. Do you have number 1 there?

8 A. I started reading out. It goes as follows: "In the territory of

9 Banja Luka of the Security Services Centre of Banja Luka," which does not

10 cover only the town of Banja Luka but a much broader area, "the law on

11 internal affairs of Republika Srpska in Bosnia and Herzegovina should be

12 made effective henceforth, the insignia should be changed, the cadres

13 loyal to Republika Srpska -- to the Serbian Republic and Yugoslavia should

14 be allowed to continue working," and it went on to say that this should be

15 implemented in the territory of Bosnian Krajina. So the first part

16 concerned the loyalty oath.

17 Then under 2, it said that all of this had to be implemented by

18 the 6th of April. So they were writing this on the 5th of April, and they

19 wanted the deadline to be the 6th of April. It all had to be done

20 quickly. Then the request concerning war profiteers. Then the request

21 concerning dismissals in the banks, in the Privedna Banka in Banja Luka,

22 the commercial bank, for the alleged action against the monetary putsch.

23 And this request should also be implemented by the 6th of April 1992,

24 before the crisis staff. And then conclusion number 5, or their request

25 number 5, "we request the removals to be effected in the post office

Page 24816

1 where" --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it going to change history, Mr. Ackerman?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: No, Your Honour, it's not.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move ahead. Thank you for understanding.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop.


8 Q. We're going on another subject now, sir. You can put that away.

9 A. The 6th request is the most significant one --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I'm trying to get you on the plane tomorrow

11 morning.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, he can't --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: He's not going until Saturday anyway.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm trying to get this finished.

16 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.


18 Q. You said -- you were asked by Judge Janu about Alija Izetbegovic.

19 You indicated that you believed that maybe he had made some mistakes. Do

20 you think rejecting the Lisbon Peace Accords was a mistake that he made?

21 A. Well, I don't recall the instant peace accords, and I simply do

22 not recall him rejecting any peace accords.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, Mr. Ackerman.


25 Q. You were asked yesterday by the Judge about --

Page 24817

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Which Judge?

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Judge Agius.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: I think that's you, Your Honour.

5 Q. -- about the electronic media that could be watched and heard in

6 Banja Luka. And you listed some. You didn't list Zagreb Television, but

7 then today when the Judge asked you about it, you included Zagreb

8 Television, that you could watch that on occasion.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: With snow on the screen.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: With snow on the screen.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Sometimes.


13 Q. And it's also the case, isn't it, that you could listen to Radio

14 Zagreb any time you wanted to?

15 A. Yes, but I probably misunderstood the Honourable Presiding Judge.

16 I supposed he had asked me about the Banja Luka media, and that is what my

17 answer was in that sense.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Banja Luka media would not include Novi Sad and

19 would not include the Belgrade paper, Belgrade TV and -- but anyway.

20 You've made your point, Mr. Ackerman.


22 Q. Yesterday, in that same conversation you were having with the

23 Judge, you talked about a journalist named Risto Djogo on Pale TV, and you

24 said he was guilty of shameful primitivism. Could you elaborate on that.

25 A. Yes.

Page 24818

1 Q. What do you mean by shameful primitivism?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you mean by shameful primitivism?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was such a base level of his

5 reports. His reports served to offend members of other ethnic

6 communities. This was the worst thing you could experience in the

7 territory of the former Yugoslavia. On the other side, there were bad

8 journalists as well. For instance, Smiljko Sagolj on the Croat side, but

9 none of them reported in such a primitive, savage way as Djogo did. And

10 in the end, he was killed by the Serbs.


12 Q. Was he on frequently?

13 A. Constantly. He was the main attraction.

14 Q. And that was in 1992?

15 A. 1992, 1993. I think ever since the Pale television was put into

16 place.

17 Q. And was it such a main attraction that people on the streets and

18 in the coffee bars in Banja Luka talked about it?

19 A. Yes, yes, definitely. Those people who were more properly

20 behaved, they would be ashamed of it. An intellectual of mine, a

21 Serb -- a friend of mine, an intellectual, a Serb, he was ashamed of it.

22 Others saw it as a joke, would laugh at it. There was this once when he

23 placed a pistol against his forehead, and then fired. But of course,

24 there was no bullet inside. And he said: "Well, I'm sorry to have

25 disappointed you, Alija."

Page 24819

1 Q. Would you say that he was frightening people, that he was

2 frightening Muslim and Croat people with the things that he was saying?

3 A. This was disgusting, and it is really sorrowful that something

4 like this could have happened. You could imagine the level of behaviour

5 where you have this man take up a Muslim flag, throws it on to the floor

6 in the TV studio, and then stamps on it. That's terrible.

7 Q. But my question is was this disgust, shameful primitivism that

8 this guy was engaging in on a daily basis and that people were talking

9 about, was it frightening people? Was it causing them to be afraid?

10 Especially Muslims and Croats, was it frightening them?

11 A. I think I have answered this question.

12 Q. No, you haven't. Was it frightening people? You can just say yes

13 or no.

14 A. It must have frightened you to see the kind of people you had in

15 power, someone who could just come up to you, hit you on the head and do

16 whatever he felt like doing to you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So your answer is yes, in other words, is it not?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Just say yes or no because you keep going around in

20 circles without answering the question.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I apologise.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.


24 Q. Another subject, now, you were aware, weren't you, that there were

25 Croats and Muslims who continued to serve and sit in the Banja Luka

Page 24820

1 Assembly throughout the war? Were you aware of that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And if I suggest to you that Mr. Brdjanin was never on Belgrade or

4 Pale television in 1992, could you accept that?

5 A. I couldn't really, but I will not claim to the contrary. I

6 wouldn't be able to do that. The TV Novi Sad is a branch TV studio of the

7 Belgrade television. And he was there.

8 Q. Well, I'm contending and suggesting to you that he was never

9 on -- in 1992, that he was never on television in Belgrade or Novi Sad.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: He told you that. He said he doesn't agree, but he

11 can't prove to the contrary.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may --


14 Q. When Ms. Korner was asking you questions --

15 MS. KORNER: I think the witness is trying to finish the question.

16 I'm sorry, Your Honour, I think the witness ought to be allowed to say

17 whatever he wants to say about this.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: That's fine with me. I'm just trying to get us

19 finished by seven. If he wants to stay till tomorrow ...

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have anything else to say? I think you have

21 answered the question.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can prove that he was on the TV

23 Novi Sad show. That was after the proclamation of the Serbian Republic of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I don't know what date it was because it wasn't

25 really important for me, but he was certainly there. Him, Vukic, and

Page 24821

1 others.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.


4 Q. At some point during your testimony, and I neglected to write down

5 when it was, you talked about the conditions that people were living

6 under, and you said that people could not afford newspapers. Do you

7 recall saying that?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. During that time, a lot of news was travelling among people just

10 by word of mouth, wasn't it?

11 A. No. No. My copy of Glas, if I bought it, for instance, it would

12 be read by 50 people. And we watched the radio and TV by switching on to

13 the car battery. And they kept repeating news reports in order for the

14 people who sometimes didn't have electricity to be able to hear it as well

15 when they do have electricity.

16 Q. You might have misunderstood my question. So let me ask it in a

17 different way just to be sure your answer is to what I ask. What I'm

18 suggesting to you is one of the ways the people learned what was happening

19 was by hearing about it from other people. News was travelling from

20 person to person by word of mouth, in other words. Even if they weren't

21 reading the newspaper, they were learning about things by people telling

22 them about them.

23 A. That was one way, but I, however, did not use it.

24 Q. Were you aware -- well, your diary is full of things that people

25 told you. What do you mean you didn't use it? Your diary's full of

Page 24822

1 people telling you things that you wrote down in your diary. That's word

2 of mouth, isn't it?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. So you did use it.

5 A. That is true, but whenever I wrote down the name of the person who

6 had been beaten up, I would also write down his ID number and the source

7 from whom I got the information. And if I happened to be wrong, I would

8 subsequently go back to this entry and change it accordingly and say that

9 they didn't give me the right information.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not answering the question, and I think we

11 can move to the next question, Mr. Ackerman.


13 Q. Where you are aware that 1.860 Muslims in Celinac had their lives

14 saved by Mr. Brdjanin? Were you aware of that?

15 A. How --

16 MS. KORNER: I object to that characterisation, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Korner.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He might have, if he had sent them

19 out of Celinac and saved them.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Now, Ms. Korner.

21 MS. KORNER: I object to that characterisation, Your Honour. The

22 evidence shows that the Muslims left. There's no evidence that their

23 lives were saved by Mr. Brdjanin.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: There's direct evidence. A witness said those

25 exact words. Exact words, a Muslim witness.

Page 24823

1 MS. KORNER: No, no.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. Please, please, please.

3 Are you aware, sir, of any event in which Mr. Brdjanin was

4 involved as intervening on behalf of -- Mr. Ackerman said 1.800 Muslims in

5 Celinac.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: 1.860, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: And 60.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish I did, but I do not. But

9 believe me, if the people went out of there, he did save them.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.


12 Q. Do you have any evidence, not your opinion, not your guessing, not

13 your speculation, do you have any evidence that Mr. Brdjanin was a thief,

14 a robber, or a war profiteer?

15 A. No.

16 Q. When would you say the largest number of Serbs left Banja Luka?

17 I'm sorry, the largest number of non-Serbs. When would you say the

18 largest number of non-Serbs left Banja Luka? What year?

19 A. Do you mean in this period we are talking about?

20 Q. Yes. During the war period. What year during the war period?

21 A. Well, some time in the beginning of 1993, up until the end of

22 1993. That's when people started leaving en masse.

23 Q. Yesterday, page 29 and 30, I believe it was, of the transcript,

24 Judge Agius asked you this: "How frequent, according to your -- according

25 to you were these statements in the local media labelling Muslims as

Page 24824

1 Islamic fundamentalists, extremists or fanatics and can you recall

2 specific instances?"

3 And your answer, line 14: "Yes, I think I can, Your Honour. This

4 was a common occurrence, an everyday phenomena. Everyday."

5 Now, I'd really like to know if you mean that it was an everyday

6 occurrence. I mean, can you look in your diary and show us every day in

7 your diary that there was some statement about labelling Muslims as

8 extremists or fanatics? Does that appear every day in your diary?

9 A. I think to a large extent, yes, I can. Although I would only

10 write it down once, this would be heard every day. And then if I heard

11 something new in their announcement, I would write it down. Yes, but I do

12 know that this was an everyday occurrence.

13 Q. So you were selective about the things you wrote in your diary, of

14 course, weren't you?

15 A. Well, you are aware of the fact that this isn't so. What I meant

16 to say was that it was unnecessary for me to repeat the same story all

17 over again every day.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. But it was you who selected actually at

19 the end of the day whether this was worth reporting in your diary or not.

20 This is what is being suggested. When you decided to make an entry, you

21 made an entry. When you decided it was not the case of making an entry,

22 it did not make an entry.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, prior to every news

24 report Krajiski Dnevnik, the pronouncement would be broadcast, and they

25 would repeat the same thing. And I felt unnecessary to write down every

Page 24825

1 day one and the same thing.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think we are talking at cross-purposes.

3 And I also think, if I remember well, Mr. Ackerman, that he did mention

4 after all that he was not buying Glas on a daily basis because he couldn't

5 afford that.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: The only point I want to make, Your Honour, is that

7 he was selecting. And I think you made the point for me.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. The point has been made.


10 Q. I want to ask you this, now, page 33 it's your further answer to

11 Judge Agius regarding that issue. It says: "Here, for instance, I'm

12 looking at a declaration, which says: 'Serbs and all honourable Krajina

13 people, let us stand up and defend our freedom, our religion, and our

14 homes. We are fighting against Ustasha and Islamic fascists. We are

15 fighting lies and international conspiracy. We're fighting for the truth,

16 and we cannot lose.'" Who said that? Who does your diary indicate said

17 that?

18 A. This was an announcement that was broadcast before and after the

19 Banja Luka Radio news. I wrote this once, and I could not write the same

20 thing every time after I had heard the news. Not that I avoided writing

21 something down, I would write something new if I heard it. But I felt it

22 unnecessary to write this same stuff every day.

23 Q. I understand that. And that was -- so it's your position,

24 then -- and I'm not sure I disagree with you. It's your position then

25 that it was a daily announcement that you could hear on Banja Luka -- was

Page 24826

1 it radio or TV? Radio.

2 A. That's right. I think it was a radio announcement. I think so.

3 But it does say here, after all.

4 Q. And that wasn't something Mr. Brdjanin was saying; that's

5 something the announcer on the radio was saying I think you said before

6 every newscast?

7 A. For God's sake, it was an announcement, or even a radio jingle if

8 you want.

9 Q. Common. If you were paying attention to the radio, you couldn't

10 have missed it. Right?

11 A. Right, certainly.

12 Q. You said then also the following: "Let us understand. We are not

13 under the blockade by the 6th American fleet, but by the -- Zulja and

14 Mulja from Gracac town" and something and something. The transcript

15 doesn't reveal what you really said. "May they all die or get killed by a

16 bullet. That is the kind of justice they all deserve." Was that a daily

17 thing you'd hear on the radio, too?

18 A. The moment I heard it, I wrote it down. This was one of the

19 announcements. You can see the level of it.

20 Q. Yeah, I can, but that's not Mr. Brdjanin saying that, is it?

21 A. For God's sake, I didn't even write it down as Mr. Brdjanin having

22 said that.

23 Q. Right.

24 A. Well, do you really think that I should attribute to him things in

25 addition to what he actually did say?

Page 24827

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question, Mr. Ackerman.


3 Q. You were asked yesterday a lot about Mr. Brdjanin's statements and

4 speeches and the effect of those speeches. And on page 34, line 8 through

5 19, the Judge asked you if you could provide specific instances

6 of -- let me find the exact...

7 "Relative to the period" - I'm on page 34 - "April 1992 to

8 December 1992, are you aware of any incidents occurring as in your mind a

9 direct link or a direct result of what was stated in the media? Please be

10 specific. I don't want you to be generic because being generic doesn't

11 help us in the least."

12 And then you said had you known this would be asked, you would

13 have taken some time in the hotel to look at the entries. And the Judge

14 said maybe you'll have time later this evening and tomorrow morning to see

15 if you can find any of these instances and come back to us tomorrow.

16 Did you find any specific incidents occurring as a direct link to

17 things stated in the media?

18 A. The war itself is a direct consequence. I apologise. I dedicated

19 myself to the topics raised by the Honourable Judge; Mladjenovic and

20 others. That's what I looked up. I'm sorry to say I didn't look up this

21 one.

22 Q. The one I just mentioned was a topic raised by the Honourable

23 Judge. He asked you to look at it last night. And the answer is you

24 haven't.

25 A. No, I didn't.

Page 24828

1 Q. Let me ask you this question now.

2 A. But I do have it in writing here what the Presiding Judge had

3 said, and I wrote it down. And I didn't have this among my notes.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's right.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Please don't worry about that.

6 Q. Just don't worry about it.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: He may have been misled by --

8 MR. ACKERMAN: I know exactly what happened. You gave him the

9 instructions at the very end what you were going to bring up, and it

10 wasn't among them.

11 Q. As you sit here right now, can you tell this Trial Chamber of one

12 incident, a crime, a war crime, that you can connect with any statement

13 that you contend was made by Radoslav Brdjanin? Just one?

14 A. Whatever I can remember, whatever the events I remember, I think

15 that Brdjanin has was played a role in it. But now you're asking me to

16 say whether I think that whatever happened had actually been impacted upon

17 by what Mr. Brdjanin had said, and I cannot claim this.

18 Q. Thank you. You mentioned to us yesterday that Mr. Brdjanin said

19 something about "strike them off the soles of our feet." I wonder if you

20 have seen the videotape --

21 A. That is right.

22 Q. I wonder if you have seen the videotape of the exact language that

23 was used by Mr. Brdjanin in the speech in which something like that was

24 said. Have you seen that videotape?

25 A. Yes, I have. I have. That borders should be established, yes.

Page 24829

1 I've seen that tape, and that we should free ourselves of the pagans and

2 the heathens, and these are Mr. Brdjanin's words. After all, the

3 videotape exists, and it is here.

4 Q. Well, I'll suggest a number of things to you. First of all,

5 there's nothing in that tape about pagans and heathens. I suggest that to

6 you. I suggest to you that that tape is from 1993, and that it was made

7 in the context of the Vance-Owen Plan and the referendum on that plan, and

8 that what Mr. Brdjanin said, in effect, was that if the cantonisation that

9 was --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, I'm sorry to --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry to interrupt you. I specifically, and my

13 two colleagues specifically avoided referring the witness to that

14 particular tape, as you may have noticed.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Probably for that reason. Okay.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And I would suggest that -- I don't want to stop you

17 if you want to continue asking the question on that.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm fine with what you just said, Your Honour.

19 Absolutely.



22 Q. In your prior testimony here, on 24 June at page 18.167, and you

23 were asked about this statement yesterday, so you heard it yesterday, you

24 said "most of the fatal decisions, at least the way it seemed, were taken

25 by Brdjanin." I wonder if you can name one decision that was made in 1992

Page 24830

1 by Brdjanin. One decision of any kind, just one.

2 A. Well, for instance, the SOS announcement which had been read out

3 by him. The radio presenters read out the announcement, and he talked

4 about these -- the conclusions adopted by the staff in response to these

5 requests.

6 Q. That's conclusions adopted by a crisis staff. I asked you if you

7 could give us one decision that was taken by Brdjanin, not by some staff,

8 a decision taken by Brdjanin. Do you know one?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think yesterday he explained that statement,

10 Mr. Ackerman, by practically rephrasing it and saying that this was a

11 perception that one could have had because he was the one who was

12 announcing all these decisions. But then he specifically stated that he

13 didn't mean to say that these decisions were actually taken by him, by

14 your client.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: If that's what you heard, Your Honour, and that's

16 the record, then I'm satisfied with it.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what he stated.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't know what you want to do, Your Honour.

19 I've got. I don't think I have more than ten minutes left.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It will avoid us having to come tomorrow. Okay?

21 Yes, I am so grateful.

22 Yes, Mr. Ackerman, try to restrict it as much as you can.


24 Q. Miro Mladjenovic, did you know that he was not a trained

25 journalist and that he was -- I'm not sure about that. Did you know that

Page 24831

1 he was put in the editor's position of Glas by the SDS?

2 A. I know that he was an untrained journalist. Yes, I know that.

3 Yes.

4 Q. And did you know that he was put in his position as editor by the

5 SDS?

6 A. I presumed so.

7 Q. Did you know that he participated in the capture of the

8 transmitter at Mount Kozara?

9 A. Yes. He and Andjelko Grahovac.

10 Q. I'm going to refer to some entries in your diary of the 15th of

11 July 1992. That's the one that has been referred to before where you

12 actually said you dialed a number and talked to him. And I'm looking

13 on -- it's page 4 of the English, L0048330. It talks about Kupresanin,

14 Brdjanin, and Vukic trying to remove Mladjenovic from his position as

15 editor in chief at Glas. And you say this: "The epilogue of these

16 attempts by the aforementioned three officials happened at the session of

17 the Crisis Staff subsequently renamed War Presidency of the region on 6

18 July when the conclusion was passed that the leading person of the paper

19 should be removed."

20 Now, as a matter of fact, Mladjenovic ignored that decision and

21 took the position that the Crisis Staff had no power to remove him, didn't

22 he?

23 A. I know that he was removed.

24 Q. But you also know that he took the position that the Crisis Staff

25 did not have the power to remove him, don't you?

Page 24832

1 A. I had my position about it. He did have the opinion that you

2 mentioned now. But he had to actually leave in the end.

3 Q. Well, he had to leave because what he said was that the crisis

4 staff didn't have any authority to take that position and to replace him,

5 that only the municipal assembly, the founder of the paper, had that

6 power. He said -- and it's in your diary; I'm now on page 6 of the

7 English -- that the war presidency of the AR Krajina passed another

8 conclusion. Without any authority whatsoever, the war presidency decided,

9 among other things, to appoint some other people in his place. The

10 conclusions show the war presidency claims competencies it does not have

11 as these competencies belong exclusively to the Banja Luka Municipal

12 Assembly, the founder of the aforementioned media.

13 So he ignored them until it was the municipal assembly that

14 replaced him. Correct?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Answer yes or no.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question, Mr. Ackerman.


19 Q. I want to you look at a document marked Defence Exhibit DB344.

20 This comes from a publication called Patriot, and it's from 12 August 2003

21 edition of Patriot. Are you familiar with that publication at all?

22 A. No. I'm not.

23 Q. The first thing I'd like you to notice is it was written -- the

24 article that you have before you, the section of it, was written by --

25 apparently by Boro Sendic, who we have talked about earlier today. Do you

Page 24833

1 see that?

2 A. Yes, I do. This was published after I had left Banja Luka. This

3 is why I'm not familiar with it. As far as I see, this is December 2003.

4 I left in November.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: December or August?


7 Q. Yes. The only question I want to ask you, and it's simple but

8 it's going to require you to do a little bit of reading. If you go to the

9 last --

10 A. December.

11 Q. Yeah. -- the last page of this document, sir, you'll find a

12 paragraph that begins -- my Serbo-Croat isn't great. But if you start

13 where it says "hoce mogu smiju," and read down to the end, "Radovana,"

14 you'll see the material I'm interested in. Do you see where I'm looking?

15 You'll see Vojo Kupresanin's name, Stojan Zupljanin's name, and Radoslav

16 Brdjanin's name, as you read through there, and Grahovac is there, too.

17 If you read that section, I'll ask you just one question.

18 A. Was this -- the municipal assembly was called on the 15th of

19 November by Vojo Kupresanin? Is that the part you're talking about?

20 Q. Yes. If you start there with "calling a meeting of the

21 assembly by Vojo Kupresanin..."

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And read on down until you get to the end of the publication.

24 It's fairly short. You can actually skip a lot and go from the last time

25 you see "Zupljanin" down to the next time you see "Grahovac," if you want

Page 24834

1 to.

2 So what you should have read up there where it says 15 November,

3 that: "Assembly vice-president Brdjanin attacked Grahovac. What did he

4 think he was doing setting up some paramilitary unit without consulting

5 the assembly, spending money on it, buying uniforms and so forth, with

6 Sendic and Mladjenovic? He sent them across the River Sava without

7 anyone's approval, and what were they doing there"?

8 And then if you go down to the end, Sendic says: "The assembly

9 did not decide on anything. Brdjanin's proposal that the three of us be

10 charged for harmful and inappropriate behaviour was not accepted."

11 Do you see all that? And the only question I have, which might

12 make this easy for you, is sitting there in Banja Luka --

13 A. I can see it.

14 Q. -- did you learn about this? Were you aware that this had

15 happened? Did you have any knowledge of this before I showed it to you

16 today?

17 A. No, I didn't know anything about this. This was published in

18 December. I had already left Banja Luka by then.

19 Q. No, that's not what I'm asking you. I'm not asking if you knew

20 about this article.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the question should be phrased differently.


23 Q. I'm asking if you knew anything about the events --

24 A. No, no, no.

25 Q. Did you know about the events that are described in this article,

Page 24835

1 in November 1992?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Ever heard of any such events? Ever heard of any

3 such events?


5 Q. 1991. I'm sorry.

6 A. No, I didn't know anything about that.

7 Q. Did you know anything about Brdjanin being opposed to paramilitary

8 groups and war profiteers?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's take them one by one.


11 Q. Paramilitary groups. Did you know anything about him being

12 opposed to paramilitary groups?

13 A. I know that he advocated SOS, and SOS is also a paramilitary

14 organisation.

15 Q. Did you know anything about him being opposed to war profiteers?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Are we there, Mr. Ackerman?

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Let him answer the question.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he --


20 Q. Okay.

21 A. Yes. On several occasions, he spoke against war profiteers.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. I need to go into private session,

23 Your Honour, for one final question.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session.

25 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 MS. KORNER: Open session.

14 Your Honours indicated you would be letting both of us, both

15 sides, know of matters we should address in our final briefs.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we have already drafted it. We are in the

17 process of, you know, doing some further thinking to see whether we should

18 add anything on them. But it's a matter -- I think you will have it first

19 thing next week.

20 MS. KORNER: That's fine.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: It's being drafted already.

22 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

24 Once more, I should like to thank the interpreters, not only for

25 the high quality of your interpretation. Today in particular, I was

Page 24838

1 really impressed at a particular moment what a high level of

2 interpretation we were receiving. But I also want to thank the

3 technicians, the Registrar, the deputy, all the staff, and you,

4 Mr. Ackerman, for finishing as you promised, and you, Ms. Korner, for your

5 cooperation. Thank you.

6 Thank you, sir, for coming again. I know it wasn't easy, but I

7 should like to thank you. And above on everyone once more, I wish you a

8 safe journey back home. Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you. And I

10 would also like to thank the interpreters for having interpreted my words,

11 despite the fact that I sometimes spoke very fast.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

15 at 7.14 p.m.