Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11

1 Friday, 6 December 2002

2 [Status Conference]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 8.38 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in the courtroom and those

7 assisting us just outside the courtroom. Madam Registrar, would you

8 please call the case.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-95-10/1-PT, the Prosecutor versus

10 Ranko Cesic.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12 Good morning, Mr. Cesic. Good morning, Defence counsel. Good

13 morning, counsel for the Prosecution. We are here to have a status

14 conference. I have a few items on the agenda. The first is disclosure,

15 where we stand, whether there are any problems. The second is whether

16 there are any -- whether there's any progress made between the parties up

17 to this moment in compromising on the establishment of facts. The third

18 would be the -- whether there's any problem in respect of the health

19 situation of Mr. Cesic. And is there anything you'd like to add to the

20 agenda? Of course, I'm aware that a few other things are pending. We

21 have a proposed amendment to the indictment. It's not necessary to

22 discuss it here, but if one of the parties would like to say anything

23 about it, and then not the substance of the matter but perhaps procedural

24 issues or questions, then of course I would give an opportunity for that.

25 So if there's anything the parties would like to add to the agenda, I'll

Page 12

1 give them an opportunity.

2 But before doing so, perhaps just for the completeness of the

3 transcript, in asking the Defence whether they would like to add anything

4 that they give the appearances as well so that we are complete for the

5 transcript. Could I first ask the Defence to give the appearances, and to

6 ask whether there's anything you'd like to add to the agenda. Yes,

7 please.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Microphone, please.

10 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] My name is Vojislav Nedic. I'm an

11 attorney at law from Belgrade, and I appear for the accused Cesic. Next

12 to me is Ms. Trlaic. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And would the Defence like to add something to the

14 agenda?

15 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] Not at the present, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For the Prosecution.

17 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Judge Orie. My name is Mark Harmon

18 representing the Office of the Prosecutor this morning. Appearing with me

19 to my right, Mr. Vladimir Tochilovsky, to his right, Mr. Thomas Hannis,

20 and the case manager, Ms. Susan Grogan, case manager. We do not wish to

21 add anything to the agenda this morning. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, very much Mr. Harmon. I also was informed

23 that one of the parties would like to address the Court or perhaps the

24 accused would like to address me in closed session. Is that information

25 right? I'm just looking to Prosecution, Defence, and you, Mr. Cesic.

Page 13

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did not hear the interpretation,

2 so I didn't understand you very well.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'll repeat what I said to both counsel for the

4 Prosecution, counsel for the Defence, and you, that I was informed that

5 someone would like to address me in closed session. If that is true,

6 we'll have to find a moment when to discuss the matter of which I, of

7 course, do not know yet what it is about. Is there in request for closed

8 session during this Status Conference on an issue not yet mentioned?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At present, I do have a problem.

10 Since I have no counsel, I submitted an application, but this has not

11 resolved. The attorneys present are only provisional, and this is a

12 problem for me because I have to start preparing my defence.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's an issue you would like to add to the

14 agenda. We'll see whether and in what detail we can discuss this matter

15 because as far as I'm informed, a request has been made to the Registry.

16 A decision has been given, or at least a letter has been sent to you by

17 the Registry which seems to contain a decision. And that's where it

18 stands at this very moment, as far as I can see. But if there would be

19 any practical matter related to it, we could discuss this.

20 Please be seated, Mr. Cesic.

21 Let's first start, then, with the agenda as I proposed it to be,

22 and start with the disclosure. I'm not aware of any specific problem at

23 this very moment in respect of disclosure. And since we are -- the stage

24 of the proceedings we are in, one would expect if there would be a

25 problem, that it would come from the Defence. I would first give the

Page 14

1 Defence an opportunity to make any comment on the disclosure.

2 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] The Defence, Your Honour, has received

3 the decision of the 22nd of November, and we have no objections to such a

4 decision. As far as we are concerned, everything is in order. There is

5 an order to the Prosecution that they should submit the third amended

6 indictment, and we are expecting this. Apart from what the accused has

7 raised, that is, that he wishes to change his Defence counsel, we have

8 nothing to add. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This is not specific on disclosure that you

10 tell me; it's more about the indictment and the consequences of earlier

11 decisions. Does the Defence have confidence that they have received all

12 the material they are entitled to receive under the disclosure rules?

13 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] In our view, as regards the case

14 against Jelisic who has already been convicted, we have not received all

15 the documents needed for the Defence. But we wish to say that we still

16 have problems in preparing the Defence because the accused is refusing to

17 have any contacts with us. So with your leave, Your Honour, I wish to say

18 that we, as Defence counsel of the accused Cesic, also wish to withdraw.

19 And I have submitted this to the Registry in writing.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- you're trying to come to the issue I

21 would like to discuss later. My question at this very moment is whether

22 you have received all the information, documents, that the Prosecution is

23 obliged to provide to you under Rule 66 and following. You say that in

24 respect of the Jelisic case, who has already been convicted, that you have

25 not received all the documents needed for the Defence, what specific

Page 15

1 documents have you not received and when did you specifically ask for

2 these documents to the Prosecution?

3 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] In September, as far as I can recall,

4 we asked for the documents from the Jelisic case. We do not have the

5 transcript. At present, I can't say precisely, but we consider that we

6 needed all the documents related to that case because it seems to be

7 connected with this case.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 Mr. Harmon, would the Prosecution please -- so I now understand

10 that the issue is that the Defence has asked for all documents including

11 all transcripts of the Jelisic case and that they have not received it.

12 MR. HARMON: Judge Orie, two things: One, I do not and have never

13 received a request for documents from the Jelisic case. The Jelisic

14 documents are public documents. They are public transcripts. They are

15 available to the Defence and have been available. That case was concluded

16 many years ago. In respect of pre-trial discovery and disclosure, we have

17 completed our disclosure to the Defence. We have completed all our Rule

18 66 disclosure to the Defence. In fact, we have gone beyond what we are

19 legally obligated to disclose, and we believe that we have now completed

20 all pre-trial disclosure obligations, Rule 66 and Rule 68 that apply in

21 this case.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Nedic, is there any -- did you send a

23 letter to the Prosecution explaining on the basis of which Rule you wanted

24 documents to be disclosed, apart from public documents, I take it?

25 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] At present, I'm unable to say because

Page 16

1 I have several assistants in my team, so I cannot say at present. But I

2 do allow that Mr. Harmon may be right, and this is a problem that can

3 easily be overcome. The Defence will do everything it can to overcome

4 this problem. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: If there is a problem, since you are telling me that

6 it's easy to overcome this problem, I expect this to be settled before we

7 have a 65 ter meeting, perhaps in the near future. So please, check what

8 you asked for, what was the basis in the Rules on which you asked these

9 documents. Please ask yourself whether you wish to have access to

10 documents that are already publicly available. Then see whether there's

11 any remaining problem, and then of course, as the pre-trial judge, I would

12 very much appreciate if the problem really would be overcome.

13 That means that at this very moment, we have no further disclosure

14 issues to discuss.

15 Second issue, as far as I'm concerned, the progress the parties

16 have made in compromising on the establishment of facts in this case. I

17 do understand from you, Mr. Nedic, that you have some difficulties because

18 of the --

19 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, you understand

20 correctly. The problem lies in my communication with my client who

21 refuses to communicate with me. And it is, therefore, extremely difficult

22 for me to defend him properly.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. And do I also understand that

24 this is an obstacle for ongoing communication with the Prosecution to see

25 whether there could be any facts established by the parties, that is, the

Page 17

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 18

1 consent between the parties on the establishment of facts? Mr. Harmon,

2 therefore I take it it is correct that the Prosecution could not give any

3 further information in this respect as to such facts?

4 MR. HARMON: That's correct. That's correct, Judge Orie. We're

5 prepared at any time to meet with the representative of Mr. Cesic to

6 discuss those issues. We have not done so to date.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it turns out that we have a serious

8 problem here.

9 Mr. Cesic, I am informed that you'd like to change counsel. You

10 have filed a request to that extent, and you have been informed by the

11 Registry that the counsel you'd like to be assigned to you is not

12 fulfilling the requirements, especially not in view of the mastering of

13 one of the official languages of the Tribunal. And apart from that, also

14 his specific experience in criminal cases. This decision has been sent to

15 you in a short letter by the Registrar. The Chamber has not received any

16 appeal on that, and you might be aware that usually decisions of the

17 Registry are not under a full appeal of the Chamber to the extent that the

18 Chamber would have the competence to review such a decision and take over

19 the responsibilities of the Registry. There is a clear distinction

20 between the Registry and the Chamber. And I'm not saying that such

21 decisions cannot be reviewed, but it's not the case that the Chamber takes

22 over in reviewing such case the full responsibilities of the Registry.

23 But if there would be anything, although there's no request for review

24 filed, if there would be anything you'd like to tell me about it, please

25 do so. If you can do it in open session, fine. If you cannot do it in

Page 19

1 open session, then please ask for closed session.

2 I would like to make one observation. In the beginning, you said

3 you have no Defence counsel. That must be a mistake. You have Defence

4 counsel assigned to you. The present situation is that you would wish to

5 have other Defence counsel assigned to you. This wish has not been

6 fulfilled, at least not until now. I want to make it quite clear to you

7 that whatever happens in this situation, you cannot tell the Court later

8 that you had no Defence counsel. It's your own choice whether you want to

9 communicate with Defence counsel assigned to you. But if this would

10 result in, let's say, a failure to file documents in time or whatever, as

11 long as Mr. Nedic is your Defence counsel, he will assist you. If you do

12 not communicate with him, you are the one who has to take full

13 responsibility for the consequences of that. I want this to be quite

14 clear before I invite you to make whatever submissions you'd like to make

15 in this respect.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I haven't had the

17 interpretation the entire time, so I do not understand anything that is

18 being said here.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You would say during the last 20 minutes or just on

20 what I said? But even this might not be translated, so it's of no use.

21 Is there -- could someone check what we have on channel 6, I take it,

22 here?

23 Yes, I was not aware that Mr. Cesic was all the time on the wrong

24 channel.

25 Mr. Cesic, let me just trying to summarise, unless you say I want

Page 20

1 the whole discussion to be repeated, because you're fully entitled to

2 follow whatever is said in this Court. But if you would say a summary

3 could help me, but I do understand that you're in a very specific

4 situation where communication with Defence counsel is problematic.

5 Do you want that we restart, or do you or could we start and try

6 to summarise what has been said until now? It's dangerous to start early

7 in the morning.

8 I suggest that we have a break, that we restart the Status

9 Conference, and that the parties try to be as brief as possible, but

10 repeat so that the accused can hear it whatever has been said. But we

11 could do it, I take it, in less time than we used until now because we

12 know more or less what to expect.

13 I don't know whether for technical reasons it could be done even

14 before 9.30 where I do understand that another case starts at 9.30. Would

15 there be a possibility to restart later this day during this morning?

16 There is no possibility to sit again this morning, so my decision

17 is that we restart the entire Status Conference and finish with it if

18 possible within half an hour. The interpreters have no sound.

19 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] My colleague Trlaic also has no audio

20 either.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I'll speak in the microphone not because I've got

22 something to say but just in order to check whether the system functions

23 properly. I have to continue to speak without having anything to say

24 which is for lawyers usually not a major problem, but... No translation.

25 We have B/C/S translation, but no French.

Page 21

1 Mr. Nedic, we still have technical problems. The interpreters'

2 booth have no power in their microphones as far as I can see. I've got an

3 entirely different question to you. You are at this moment in The Hague.

4 When was -- I see that everything seems to be repaired, but nevertheless

5 I'll finish my question to you. When was your departure from The Hague

6 scheduled?

7 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] I did not receive interpretation.

8 I've understood your question partially, however I did not receive

9 interpretation.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I was on the wrong channel. My question was when

11 your departure from The Hague, you and co-counsel, were scheduled?

12 MR. NEDIC: [In English] We are staying in Hotel Staten, and we

13 will come back tomorrow morning.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you want to return tomorrow

15 morning, yes. Now, a final check. What languages do we have available?

16 Do we have an English translation? Not necessary because I speak

17 English.

18 Could you speak a few words, Mr. Nedic, in your own language so

19 that we know that your words are translated into English.

20 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any interpretation

21 right now.

22 JUDGE ORIE: At least interpretation into English words.

23 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] I can hear now well.

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... because everyone

25 was automatically reset on channel 0. Now you can hear me. So the

Page 22

1 translation, English/B/C/S is functioning. I just heard that

2 B/C/S/English is functioning as well.

3 [Interpretation] I would like to say a few words in French now so

4 that we can establish for sure whether the interpretation from French is

5 going unhindered.

6 [In English] It looks as if now all problems have been overcome.

7 I was just informed that the whole building is on a generator at

8 this moment, and if we would return to the normal power supply, that we

9 have to go through the whole exercise again. So I would have to again

10 speak French. Is there any idea on how long we are on a generator? If

11 that would be more than half an hour, we could finish. Okay. This

12 courtroom is needed for another case in approximately half an hour.

13 Mr. Nedic, you're expected to return tomorrow. If we give it a chance,

14 the worst thing that could happen is that we have to do it again. The

15 best thing is that we can finish. If we leave this courtroom, we have to

16 find another moment anyhow to restart. So we'll give it a time.

17 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-95-10/1-PT, the Prosecutor versus

19 Ranko Cesic.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, may I have the appearances briefly.

21 MR. HARMON: Yes, on behalf of the Prosecutor's Office, name is

22 Mark Harmon, appearing with my is Mr. Vladimir Tochilovsky, Mr. Thomas

23 Hannis, and to my far right Ms. Susan Grogan, the case manager. Thank

24 you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harmon. May I have the appearances

Page 23

1 for the Defence, please.

2 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] My name is Vojislav Nedic. I'm an

3 attorney from Belgrade. I'm Defence counsel for the accused Cesic and to

4 my left is my colleague Vesna Trliac, a member of my Defence team.

5 THE INTERPRETER: We are still not sure that the accused has the

6 interpretation.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, has now the accused -- can you hear me,

8 Mr. Cesic, in a language you understand? That's the question I should

9 have put to you in the beginning.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you and understand

11 you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

13 On the agenda are disclosure issues and progress in communication

14 between the parties in order to establish facts they can agree upon. And

15 third, the health situation of Mr. Cesic. I was informed that the request

16 by Mr. Cesic to be that new Defence counsel would be assigned is also one

17 of the issues that should be discussed.

18 I was informed that the request by Mr. Cesic to be that new

19 Defence counsel would be assigned is also one of the issues that should be

20 discussed.

21 Mr. Cesic, I leave it up to you whether it should be discussed in

22 open or in closed session.

23 As far as disclosure is concerned, Mr. Nedic, could you give --

24 are there any complaints about the way the Prosecution has fulfilled until

25 now its disclosure obligations under the Rules, that is, Rule 66 and 68?

Page 24

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 25

1 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: If there would be any remaining problems, I'd like

3 you to communicate this with the Prosecution and see where it stands so

4 that it could be further discussed and on a 65 ter meeting to be scheduled

5 for the beginning of next year.

6 Mr. Harmon, is there any disclosure issue that should be discussed

7 at this moment?

8 MR. HARMON: Judge Orie, there are none. We believe that we have

9 completed all of our disclosure under Rule 66 and Rule 68.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so I invite the parties to communicate whatever

11 problems that would either come up or might be remaining.

12 Then Mr. Nedic, the progress in communication between Defence and

13 Prosecution, as far as the agreement on established facts is concerned,

14 you inform me about that.

15 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] Simply speaking, due to the

16 difficulties that I have in communicating with my client, or rather the

17 absence of any communication whatsoever, my communication with the

18 Prosecutor is difficult as well. However, I am prepared to speak to

19 Mr. Harmon at any time, especially since that is in the interest of my

20 client. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is there any observation to be made from the

22 Prosecution side, Mr. Harmon?

23 MR. HARMON: We, of course, are always available to discuss the

24 matters that relate to the progress of this case and the disposition of

25 this case and discovery in this case with Mr. Nedic and anyone else who

Page 26

1 may appear on behalf of Mr. Cesic. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

3 Mr. Cesic, this brings me to an issue that seems to be of

4 importance at this very moment. The issue is that you asked for another

5 Defence counsel to be assigned, that the Registry has sent you a letter in

6 which it is explained to you that the counsel you would like to be

7 assigned is not meeting the requirements for assignment, is not on the

8 list, and there seem to be -- is not on a list, so therefore he cannot be

9 assigned at this very moment. Could you tell us what your position is

10 because I do understand from what Mr. Nedic told us that you do not

11 communicate with present counsel.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't go to see them only

13 yesterday, and I submitted my request two months ago. Mr. Nedic's work or

14 rather lack of it has been going on for quite a while. Basically, he

15 hasn't done his work from the very beginning. This is why I wanted

16 another attorney to be appointed to me. I have received no materials

17 whatsoever from the beginning.

18 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.

19 Mr. Cesic, would it be a good idea to go into private session when

20 we discuss behaviour of counsel which might have consequences, especially

21 because this meeting as such is not scheduled to hear complaints about

22 counsel. Therefore, I think, unless counsel would say, "I have no problem

23 whatsoever to discuss the matter in open Court," then of course, there

24 would be no reason for that. But if you, Mr. Nedic, would prefer, because

25 your activities as counsel might have a -- it's not only that criticism on

Page 27

1 that could come up, and I wonder whether that should be done in private

2 session. But if you want to respond, then of course your activities as

3 Defence counsel might become public as well where you could also consider

4 this not to be something for the general public.

5 I also have to remind you that if you discuss your activities as

6 Defence counsel in the presence of Prosecution, then of course also the

7 confidentiality of your relationship with your client might be at stake.

8 So whenever you feel that it should not be done, not even in the presence

9 of the Prosecution, please indicate so. Would you please express yourself

10 whether you would like to discuss the matter in private session and

11 whether you have any objection against the Prosecution still be present.

12 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] I would like it to be in a closed

13 session. I would like this problem to be discussed in a closed session

14 since it covers sensitive issues in the relationship between attorney and

15 client. As far as the presence of the Prosecutor is concerned, I do not

16 object to them being present. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Private session I take it would do, otherwise we have

18 to pull down all the curtains. And private session would be agreeable to

19 you, Mr. Nedic? No one hears what you say. Yes? Okay, then we turn into

20 private session.

21 [Private session]

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 28

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 28 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 29

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 29 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 30

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 30 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 31

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are now again in open session. I have to

19 briefly repeat what I said over the last two minutes, that is, that the

20 character of the case might justify the expectation that hearing the case

21 at trial might not take as long as many other cases take in this Tribunal,

22 and that a second issue that might come up is a possible referral of the

23 case under Rule 11 bis, and whenever the parties have ever thought about

24 the possibility of the application of 11 bis. And if so, please inform me

25 on what their thoughts would be on that issue. And if not, perhaps find

Page 32

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 33

1 an opportunity for themselves to consider this aspect of the case.

2 May I first ask you, Mr. Nedic, whether you ever considered this

3 case to qualify for referral under Rule 11 bis? That is, a referral back

4 to the authorities of state in whose territory the crime was committed or

5 in which the accused was arrested.

6 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] I have not considered that issue. I

7 believe that in that case, one would need to have the consent of the

8 client, Mr. Cesic. And I was unable to establish communication with him.

9 Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I can imagine that in order to express yourself

11 on the issue, you would need the consent of the client, whether for a

12 referral you would need the consent of the client, that's a different

13 matter.

14 Mr. Harmon.

15 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, the case itself would take less than one

16 month to prosecute on behalf of the Office of the Prosecutor. There's

17 limited evidence in this case. It's a very specific case. It's

18 eyewitness testimony about events. This is not a complex case to try

19 before this Tribunal. On the issue of whether this case qualifies under

20 11 bis, certainly we've never had a conversation, counsel and I. And that

21 is something that's worth exploring. On the other hand, there's a

22 condition precedent to such a referral. We would need to be satisfied

23 that the courts function properly in the Former Yugoslavia before this

24 case should be referred back. While this may be a small case, there were

25 many victims in this case. And the crimes themselves were serious crimes,

Page 34

1 and we would need to be satisfied that those crimes could be properly

2 addressed by functioning courts that would do a proper job in assessing

3 the evidence in this case. There are other considerations as well, but I

4 needn't burden the Chamber, Your Honour, with those at this point. I

5 think it would be important if the issue of counsel could be resolved.

6 That could lead us into discussions that could result in this case even

7 not having a trial.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, that's something that's not for the

9 Chamber up -- at least not at this moment to consider whether for other

10 reasons there would be no need for trial. But since Rule 11 bis is in

11 place, I just wanted to raise the issue and just wanted to see whether the

12 parties had given it any thought.

13 Mr. Cesic, a final issue I'd like to briefly discuss, and please

14 tell me if you want to do this in private session or not, is whether you

15 have any concerns about your health at this very moment that the Chamber

16 and that the pre-trial judge should be informed about.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not at this moment. I have no

18 health problems. Everything is in order.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Cesic.

20 As far as I can see, we have gone through all the items of the

21 agenda apart from one, and that is that a 65 ter conference should be

22 scheduled on short notice. And of course, I am aware that a potential --

23 possible change of counsel could make a 65 ter conference more complex and

24 could create difficulties. But nevertheless, I would ask the parties, and

25 I'd like to inform you, Mr. Cesic, that a 65 ter meeting, 65 ter meeting,

Page 35

1 would be scheduled for the second half of January.

2 Is there anything else any of the parties or you, Mr. Cesic, would

3 like to submit at this very moment? Let me first ask you. Anything else

4 to be discussed?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not at this moment. Not until I

6 submit a second request to change Defence counsel, then that would be

7 something to discuss. But until then, I have nothing else to raise.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you want to file a renewed

9 request for change of Defence counsel. We'll wait and see what it

10 contains. But a new request, I think, should be addressed to the

11 Registry. If you would like to object against the decision taken, or at

12 least the decision contained in the most recent letter of the Registry, of

13 course another procedure would apply. You would have to request a review

14 of that decision.

15 Mr. Nedic, any -- thank you, Mr. Cesic. Any issue to be

16 discussed?

17 MR. NEDIC: [Interpretation] Just one: Despite the fact that this

18 matter should be ruled upon by the Registry, I think that Mr. Cesic should

19 be allowed to change Defence counsel. I must say that there have been no

20 omissions made in preparation of his Defence case by his Defence counsel;

21 however, there is no relationship of trust that should exist between an

22 attorney and his client. Therefore, based on that, and based on the

23 principle of ensuring the fairness of trial, I think that Mr. Cesic should

24 be allowed to change his Defence counsel. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It's quite clear to me you reject whatever blame in

Page 36

1 your direction as far as your function as counsel is concerned. But at

2 the same time, you say that the right to be assisted by counsel,

3 preferably by counsel of choice, should be fully respected. And

4 therefore, for these reasons, you think it proper to follow any request in

5 this respect. Thank you.

6 Mr. Harmon.

7 MR. HARMON: We have nothing to add. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then this concludes the Status Conference. It might

9 have been the first Status Conference on a generator rather than under

10 full power supply, but I think -- I would like to thank the parties for

11 being as concise under these specific circumstances as was necessary.

12 We'll adjourn, and a 65 ter meeting will be scheduled by the senior legal

13 officer in due course.

14 --- Whereupon the Status Conference

15 adjourned at 9.38 a.m.

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25