1 Wednesday, 10 September 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-84-R77.4, the
9 Prosecutor versus Astrit Haraqija and Bajrush Morina.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 We've come to the point where the Defence may present its case,
12 where I do understand that Mr. Dieckmann says that he is not intending to
13 call any witnesses. Is there any other evidence you would like to lead?
14 MR. KHAN: Your Honours, with your permission, perhaps he can
15 make a decision on that after we've closed our case. I don't think
16 that --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. If you have an arrangement, then
18 Mr. Dieckmann can still think about it during the presentation of your
19 case, Mr. Khan.
20 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, it's just -- of course, there is --
21 it gives him the option of calling evidence if he wishes, but I think
22 that's the proper way to do it.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It could be the other way around as well, that
24 you can consider to call any additional evidence which Mr. Dieckmann has
25 not called.
1 Are you ready to call your first witness?
2 MR. KHAN: Yes. The Defence calls Astrit Haraqija.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Haraqija, I think it's appropriate that
4 you change place, and that you take the witness-stand, which --
5 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, you'll see that my client is on crutches.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. KHAN: It wasn't a terribly serious accident, but it happened
8 at the Detention Unit whilst he was playing volleyball. He has a torn
9 ligament, and that's the reason for the crutches.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon.
11 MR. SAXON: Before we begin, Your Honours, just as a point of
12 clarification, should the Prosecution understand now that Mr. Dieckmann
13 may now be presenting evidence in this case?
14 JUDGE ORIE: At least, he has left that open; and, apparently,
15 the order -- but, first, since Mr. Haraqija is on crutches, let's not
17 Mr. Haraqija, you are now in a different place in this courtroom.
18 You are now a -- you will be a witness in your case. That means that you
19 have to answer all the questions, and that's one of the consequences of
20 your choice to appear as a witness in your own case. You'll have to give
21 the solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and
22 nothing but the truth, and you'll be condition cross-examined by or at
23 least the Prosecution has a possibility to cross-examine you.
24 I take it that you've discussed this with counsel. I just wanted
25 to make you perhaps, once again, aware of the situation you're in now.
1 Before you give evidence, the Rules require you to make a solemn
2 declaration of which the text is now handed out to you by the usher.
3 Perhaps, I hope --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Haraqija. Please be seated.
7 Yes. Now, perhaps, I interrupted Mr. Saxon at the moment,
8 apparently. Of course, the Chamber will follow the order agreed upon by
9 the parties who is the first one to present its case. That means that
10 Mr. Dieckmann, who has indicated already that he'll not call any
11 witnesses, that he may want to tender other evidence, perhaps not through
12 a witness.
13 Mr. Saxon, is there any --
14 MR. SAXON: I would simply like to clarify whether Mr. Dieckmann
15 intends to call any witnesses, including the accused Mr. Morina, because
16 I've been given no notice of that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I understood that he will not call any
18 witnesses. There are, of course, other ways to introduce evidence.
19 Sometimes documentary evidence is introduced, for example, through the
20 bar table. I don't know whether he has any plans to do so, but that
21 apparently he reserves his position.
22 MR. DIECKMANN: Your Honours, this is exactly the understanding
23 of my position now. From the very moment, we do not intend to present
24 any witness, but --
25 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. Let me be clear. Two questions: Do you
1 intend to call witnesses? I think it's fair that the Prosecution would
2 know that at this moment. Another matter is whether there's any
3 documentary evidence you would like to introduce in any other way.
4 MR. DIECKMANN: There is not in the moment, no.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But again and again, at this moment, I think
6 after the Prosecution has concluded its case presentation, I think the
7 Prosecution should be aware of whether you intend to call any witnesses.
8 I mean, under normal circumstances, you would have to give your
9 65 ter list of witnesses, and you would need the approval of the Bench to
10 add anything to your 65 ter list.
11 So, at the end of the Prosecution's case, you should make up your
12 mind as to whether you want to call any witnesses.
13 MR. DIECKMANN: Thank you, Your Honours. We do not intend.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You do not intend to call any witnesses.
15 MR. DIECKMANN: No.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Now, formally, if you would like to introduce any
17 documentary evidence, you should include any exhibits on your exhibit
18 list under 65 ter as well. That, however, might be less traumatic if you
19 would later seek the approval of the Chamber to add any documents to your
20 empty 65 ter exhibit list.
21 MR. DIECKMANN: Yes, thank you, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Khan, you may proceed.
23 WITNESS: ASTRIT HARAQIJA
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Examination by Mr. Khan:
1 Q. For the sake of formality, could you just give your name to the
2 Court for the record.
3 A. Yes. My name is Astrit Haraqija.
4 Q. Mr. Haraqija, as I explained before, two things particularly need
5 to be remembered. The first is that throughout this questioning, you
6 must remember to refer to the country we're talking about as the third
7 country and a particular witness that we're talking about as Witness 2.
8 You'll try to remember that, will you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And can I just check, the book you've got in front of you, is
11 that blank or anything written inside it?
12 A. I have something written on it.
13 Q. Are you just writing on blank pages at the moment?
14 A. I'm writing on a blank page, writing the questions you're asking
16 Q. Mr. Haraqija, I just raise that so it's brought to the attention
17 of the Judges and my learned friend for the Prosecution.
18 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I don't see there's any harm in him
19 making notes as long as he doesn't refer to any material.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon.
21 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution doesn't object for the
22 witness to make notes, but I would certainly agree with Mr. Khan, as long
23 as he does not refer to any other written material in that book.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. SAXON: Or any documents.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Haraqija, the Chamber cannot see, as a matter of
2 fact, your table. You are entitled to write, and that's even the best
3 solution --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will remove the pages on which I
5 had written something before. Now the notebook is blank, and there is
6 nothing written on it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. KHAN: I'm very grateful.
10 Q. Now, Mr. Haraqija, this is not a race, but I do want to move on.
11 We have an awful lot to try to cover today if we're going to conclude
12 proceedings, which is the wish I think of everybody.
13 MR. KHAN: Your Honours, I'm going to lead on some background
14 matters that I believe are not in dispute just to save time. If my
15 friend takes objection, of course, I will desist.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear from him.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. KHAN:
19 Q. Mr. Haraqija, is it correct that, on Monday, you started -- you
20 gave some comments in an opening statement to the Trial Chamber and you
21 fully adopt that statement whilst you are under oath now?
22 A. Yes, of course. Upon your advice, I just wanted to introduce
23 myself in the opening statement.
24 Q. Now, cutting straight to the relevant matters in this case, in
25 2005, you were a minister, were you?
1 A. Yes. From 4th of December, 2004, I was a minister of -- in the
2 Ministry of Culture, Youth, and Sports.
3 Q. And discussing some of the matters predating the allegations made
4 by the Prosecution, is it correct that a lot of destruction of cultural
5 property had taken place in Kosova in recent years?
6 A. Unfortunately, the events of March 2004 had a great impact on the
7 cultural heritage, the Orthodox culture heritage, which was a pity for
8 the entire population of Kosova because these are values of the entire
9 state of Kosova. Kosova doesn't have a sea, so that's why it should look
10 after its cultural heritage. We have a lot of cultural heritage in
12 Q. Were you particularly involved in the rebuilding of a church?
13 A. After assuming the duty of the minister, my priority was to
14 fulfil the pre-status demands, which included the cultural heritage, and
15 at the same time the building of the opera house, Dr. Ibrahim Rugova,
16 that was to be built in Pristina. After assuming this duty, in
17 cooperation with UNMIK, we drafted a strategic plan on how to protect the
18 cultural heritage. First of all --
19 Q. Just one moment. The church belonged to which community?
20 A. It was an Orthodox church.
21 Q. And that church, what state was it in when you found it, when you
22 were first involved in the project?
23 A. Many services tried to present Kosova as a black sheep. These
24 damages had not occurred only in Gjakova, but in many other cities in
25 Kosova. That's why we wanted to deal with this issue through two phases,
1 to rebuild them and to educate the coming generations, because the
2 Kosovan people were used to the former Milosevic police to come out of
3 these churches. These cultural heritage cannot be protected only through
4 uniform but through civilians as well, and most of all when we know that
5 Kosova's population is quite young.
6 Q. Did the church need rebuilding? Just try and answer the
7 question. Did the church need rebuilding?
8 A. Of course, the church needed to be rebuilt as well as other
9 facilities of historic value. In cooperation with UNMIK and the European
10 Council --
11 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Haraqija, but I know it's difficult.
12 You have a lot to say, but I'm just trying to get the key points for
13 Their Honours' attention. So I do apologise for interrupting.
14 What state was the church in? Just very briefly. Was it in one
15 piece or was it in a very bad state?
16 A. Mr. Khan, sir, I cannot speak just of one church because it was
17 not only just one church. We rebuilt a considerable number of churches,
18 about 17.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Haraqija, Mr. Khan did not ask you about the
20 whole of the programme of rebuilding churches; he asked for one specific
21 church. You should answer his questions. If he asks about one church,
22 you should respond about that one church.
23 What state was the church Mr. Khan was referring to and with
24 which you had special involvement? What was the state of that church?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a miserable state.
1 MR. KHAN:
2 Q. Mr. Haraqija, it's right, is it, that an example of this
3 rebuilding was -- is shown on a DVD
4 team? Is that right?
5 A. As I said, this was done in two phases: Rebuilding the damaged
6 facilities and, secondly, the education of the coming generations.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you again. The question by Mr. Khan was
8 whether the church he was talking about, whether you were given a DVD by
9 your wife. Did you receive a DVD
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 MR. KHAN:
12 Q. And that DVD
13 you've just talked about, is that right, in a very small way?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, at tab 7 on our 65 ter exhibit list --
16 sorry, on tab 8, you will see that there's an informational DVD. Your
17 Honours, it's a few minutes. I don't intend to play it, but Your Honours
18 are invited to look at it in due course and I would ask that it be given
19 an exhibit number in due course.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection?
21 MR. SAXON: No objections, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D3.
24 JUDGE ORIE: D3 is admitted into evidence; although not played,
25 the Chamber will have a look at it.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. KHAN:
3 Q. Do you know somebody called Bishop Pavle?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who is he?
6 A. The head of the Orthodox church.
7 Q. Have you ever been in contact with him?
8 A. With the mediation of UNMIK.
9 Q. Have you met him?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Have you ever been to Belgrade
12 A. For which period of time are you talking about?
13 Q. Have you ever been to Belgrade
14 to forge closer ties and build bridges between the Serb and the ethnic
15 Albanian communities? I'm talking about 2005.
16 A. Yes. I was there in 2005 in the capacity of minister of culture
17 upon receiving an invitation from the Serbian minister of culture. My
18 visit had to do with the restoration of the Orthodox facilities. This
19 was the first visit of a Kosovan minister to Belgrade.
20 Q. And, Mr. Haraqija, could you just tell the Court briefly how was
21 that visit viewed amongst the Kosovan Albanian community in Kosova?
22 A. The Kosovan Albanian community did not evaluate it as a good
23 visit, my visit to Belgrade
24 activities to Kosova. At the same time, the opposition at the time, due
25 to the fact that there was nothing they could do to President Rugova and
1 they knew that, I was a close associate of his, so they started a
2 campaign against me, a media campaign. Every day we had different
3 writings from the opposition appearing in the media against me.
4 Q. Sorry. I do apologise. And if this trip was going to be so
5 unpopular in Kosova, why did you go ahead with it? Very briefly.
6 A. It wasn't against the wish of Kosova people, but it was only some
7 individuals who did not want this visit. In general, I come from Gjakova
8 municipality. At that time, we had still 1.800 missing persons. Two
9 days after my visit to Belgrade
10 of mine and Mr. Bardhyl Caushi. So it was not unpopular generally in
11 Kosova but unpopular with some individuals.
12 Q. That's very clear. Thank you.
13 Now, you know that the Prosecution in this case have discussed
14 your membership of a fund called the Defence Fund for Ramush Haradinaj.
15 You're aware of that, aren't you?
16 A. Yes. I've been dealing with this issue for a year now and also
17 with party issues. I know -- if I need to explain, I will do that.
18 Q. Well, if you can tell the Court very briefly, why did you join
19 that Defence Fund for Ramush Haradinaj?
20 A. I'm a member of the Democratic Alliance of Kosova, member of the
21 Presidency. At the time, the late-President Rugova told me that I had to
22 join this fund because the party led by the former Minister Haradinaj had
23 a very small electorate, only 8 per cent; and at that time, our
24 electorate was 45 per cent. So that's why he wanted me to join the fund
25 and assist it, the Haradinaj fund, and in a way to assist the war,
1 because you cannot equalise the victim with the offender.
2 I accepted this and I mentioned in my opening statement Rugova
3 was an inspiration. I admired him. So there was no chance that I would
4 say no to any task he assigned me with.
5 Q. And, Mr. Haraqija, is it correct that on the 3rd of April, 2007
6 you were interviewed by UNMIK in Kosova in relation to that fund?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you answer truthfully when you were interviewed?
9 A. Yes, of course.
10 MR. KHAN: Perhaps with the usher's assistance -- just one
12 Q. Could you look at this document, please. Is that your signature
13 on the cover page of that document?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. KHAN: You can show him this document as well.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Khan, I've got no idea what document we're
17 talking about at this moment.
18 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I've got copies for Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Do you intend to tender this document?
20 MR. KHAN: I do. I seek leave to add to the 65 ter list. It's
21 simply to save time.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because I didn't see it on your 65 ter list.
23 Adding it to the 65 ter list, Mr. Saxon.
24 MR. SAXON: No objection.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No objection. Then leave is granted.
1 MR. SAXON: And, Your Honours, again to save time, if my learned
2 colleague seeks to tender this document, I believe it's an interview the
3 gentleman gave to UNMIK officials, so the Prosecution will not object to
5 JUDGE ORIE: The Prosecution will not --
6 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- object.
8 MR. KHAN:
9 Q. And, Mr. Haraqija, that being your interview -- well, that is
10 your interview, isn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honours, I would ask that an exhibit
13 number -- well, I would ask that leave be granted to add it to the 65 ter
14 list and an exhibit number be granted.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Leave was already granted to add it to the 65 ter
17 list. There is -- Mr. Registrar, could you please assign a number to it.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit Number D4.
19 JUDGE ORIE: D4 is admitted into evidence.
20 MR. KHAN:
21 Q. Of course, you were not a member of the same party as
22 Mr. Haradinaj, were you?
23 A. No, I'm not.
24 Q. Have you ever contested against the AAK, that being the party of
25 Mr. Haradinaj, in political elections?
1 A. To this date I contest this party, against this party. If you
2 want me to explain, I can do this.
3 Q. Please, briefly, if you could give the Court some examples of any
4 political contests you've had with the AAK in Kosova and the outcomes.
5 A. Since 2000 and up to 2007, when the fifth election was held, I
6 was the rival of Mr. Haradinaj. In the municipality I come from, the --
7 his base was there and we know that 1.800 men, young men from Gjakova,
8 actively participated in the war of the UCK.
9 In 2001 during the parliamentary election, in 2002, and in 2003
10 election, we opposed the AAK, including the 2004. So we opposed this
11 party during the four elections. I was beaten by his party,
12 nevertheless, in Gjakova during my candidacy for the president of --
13 mayor of this town.
14 Q. In what year were you beaten in the electoral contests?
15 A. After I started to be questioned by the investigators of the OTP
16 in 2007, I was successful during the first round in September, but I was
17 beaten at the second round in December 2007.
18 Q. Were you ever successful against the AAK in the Gjakova
20 A. Yes. We won the elections four times in Gjakova municipality, we
21 won over AAK, which was our main rival.
22 Q. And by that, you mean you won, you won a seat; is that correct?
23 A. I was the president of the local self-government in Gjakova
24 municipality. I led this institution for 21 months. Afterwards, I was
25 appointed by President Rugova for minister of culture, and then I
1 abandoned the former post. But as I said, I led this body for 21 months.
2 Q. And just two more questions on this topic, just for the record,
3 what years did you win these four elections in Gjakova against Ramush
4 Haradinaj's party?
5 A. The first local elections were held in 2000, then the
6 parliamentary election in 2001, then again local elections in 2002,
7 parliamentary election in 2004; while in 2007, both local and
8 parliamentary election was held, but we were beaten during this election.
9 Q. What, if anything, do you say in response to the Prosecution
10 allegation that your membership of the Haradinaj defence fund is evidence
11 that somehow you are personally committed to Ramush Haradinaj?
12 A. Well, that is why the Prosecution -- that is what the Prosecution
13 is paid for; however, it is a Trial Chamber that will decide whether I'm
14 guilty or innocent. As I've already said, Ramush Haradinaj is my rival.
15 I joined this fund because I was authorised to do this by President
16 Rugova and because of the fact that many individuals accused the LDK and
17 President Rugova of being collaborators with the Serbs in Belgrade
18 Q. Yes. Thank you. And it's correct, is it, that you gave the same
19 account to UNMIK investigators in April 2007 before these allegations
20 were ever raised?
21 A. I cannot hide the reality.
22 Q. Mr. Haraqija, did you ever ask Bajrush Morina to contact the
23 protected witness in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you know the identity of the protected witness in this case
1 in July 2007?
2 A. The first time I met Witness number 2 was here in the courtroom,
3 and I didn't know that he was a witness. I read a statement of this
4 Witness 2 in the media, but I didn't deal with these issues.
5 Q. Did you ever plan to go to the third country we've been speaking
6 about the last couple of days to speak to Witness 2?
7 A. Fortunately, thanks to my parents, I fulfilled all the plans; but
8 in this case, I didn't have any plan.
9 Q. Yes. I think the translation sometimes is a bit ambiguous. Let
10 me try and put it again.
11 Did you ever plan to go to the third country to meet Witness 2?
12 A. I said no.
13 Q. Did you ever submit a travel request to go to the third country
14 during this period?
15 A. I don't remember this, but usually it's not me who files these
16 requests; it is the administration unit that does this part of the job.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I requested to go, then I would
23 have gone.
24 MR. KHAN:
25 Q. Mr. Haraqija, sometimes it's simpler, with the problem of
1 translation we're having with Albanian, to answer yes or no wherever you
2 can. I know it's not your fault, but let me try again.
3 Did you ever request anybody to book you an aeroplane ticket to
4 go to the third country we're talking about in this case, yes or no?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you ever, directly or indirectly, threaten Witness 2 in this
8 A. No. All these fabrications on the part of the Prosecution and
9 Witness 2, it's their problem, not me. It is very difficult for me to be
10 here - not here in the witness-stand but there where the accused
11 sits - it's a very difficult situation.
12 Q. I understand that, Mr. Haraqija. Last question, and forgive me,
13 I know your case, I'm doing it for the record for Their Honours.
14 Did you ever seek to dissuade Witness 2 or any protected witness
15 under the ICTY, dissuade them from testifying before this Tribunal?
16 A. No.
17 Q. I'm most grateful. If you can stay there for cross-examination.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 MR. KHAN: And, Your Honour, for once, I was within the time.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's appreciated, Mr. Khan.
21 Mr. Dieckmann, would you have any questions for this witness?
22 MR. DIECKMANN: No questions, sir.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Saxon.
24 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I do apologise. Perhaps in my -- I still
25 do have ten minutes actually of my allotted time, just two formal matters
1 very briefly.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon, I take it you have no objection to that.
3 MR. SAXON: No objection, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Khan, please proceed.
5 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful, and I apologise to Mr. Saxon.
6 If the witness can be shown Prosecution exhibit under tab 11
7 under seal.
8 Q. Mr. Haraqija, you'll see there a travel request purporting to be
9 dated the 6th of July, 2007, with manuscript writing at the bottom. Can
10 you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you recognise the handwriting at the bottom?
13 A. As the witness said yesterday, it is her signature. I think it
14 is the signature of the deputy minister, Angjelina Krasniqi.
15 Q. And you see at the top of that document the name of Mr. Mon
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. He is - it's not in dispute - he's the permanent secretary, is
19 that right, of the ministry? He was the permanent secretary of the
21 A. Yes, he exercised that duty.
22 Q. If this request had been approved or had been formally submitted
23 and approved, would any other signature have been on that document?
24 A. Usually, for my travels, the deputy minister dealt with this
25 issue. It was not her who approved these travel requests. These were
1 presented to the secretary and ultimately approved by the prime minister.
2 Q. So, in fact, you would expect the signature of Mon Zhubi to be on
3 the document; is that right?
4 MR. SAXON: That's quite a leading question, Your Honour.
5 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour --
6 JUDGE ORIE: For chief, it is --
7 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, it's the evidence already before
8 the Court; it's the evidence the witness gave -- Angjelina Krasniqi gave
10 MR. SAXON: It's not the evidence of this witness, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If you refer to the evidence of Ms. Krasniqi,
12 especially about what one would expect of signatures and by whom, then
13 please point to it with great precision, so that we can check it.
14 MR. KHAN:
15 Q. Mr. Haraqija, if you look at the document next to it, it's a trip
16 of Mr. Morina to a third country. Can you see that document? It's the
17 one without manuscript writing .
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you see anything next to the name of Mr. Mon Zhubi?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Is any --
22 A. The finance office --
23 JUDGE ORIE: We should know exactly what document we are talking
24 about at this moment. We also have to check with the witness whether he
25 has -- you said the next document. The next for me is the one with last
1 three digits ERN 285. Is that the document you're referring to in the
3 Mr. Khan, we'd like to know exactly what document you're talking
5 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, in my file, it's the document -- well,
6 it's Prosecution Exhibit 022, and I was led to believe it was under
7 tab 11 as well. It's the --
8 JUDGE ORIE: You are asking the witness to look at the document
9 at tab 11. Now, tab 11 is a series, as admitted into evidence, is a
10 series of travel documents.
11 If you could tell us first in the original, because the witness
12 is the first one to --
13 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, it's the one with the ERN number at the
14 top right-hand side --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. KHAN: -- of 0624-4297.
17 JUDGE ORIE: 297.
18 MR. KHAN: And I think it's perhaps the third or fourth from the
20 JUDGE ORIE: Are you referring to the original?
21 MR. KHAN: Yes, the original in Albanian.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The original in Albanian, 297.
23 MR. KHAN: 062 --
24 JUDGE ORIE: I've got it. I've got it.
25 Could someone check with the witness that he's got the right
1 document in front of him.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have the number here. Your
3 Honours, I have the number here.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. KHAN:
6 Q. And you see Mr. Mon Zhubi --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's check first. What is the number at the right
8 top of the page you're looking at?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 0624-4297.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we'll focus on that document.
11 MR. KHAN:
12 Q. Do you see the name of Mr. Mon Zhubi typed at the top of --
13 JUDGE ORIE: If you would give us one second to find this.
14 MR. KHAN: Of course, of course.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Mr. Khan, can you give us the English ERN
17 MR. KHAN: Of course, Your Honour. Your Honour, it is EDT. It
18 has an EDT
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Khan.
21 MR. KHAN:
22 Q. Is there a signature next to the name of Mr. Mon Zhubi?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you recognise that signature?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Whose signature is it?
2 A. Mon Zhubi.
3 Q. Do you know what that signature at that location signifies?
4 A. That means that the request has been approved, the request for
6 Q. And is that the manner in which requests are approved?
7 A. Yes. In the Ministry of Culture, there were many travels at that
8 time. The civil service was responsible for that, especially the
9 secretary, she was responsible for this -- such things.
10 Q. I'm grateful. If you can wait there.
11 MR. KHAN: Your Honours, I am grateful and I'm sorry if I handled
12 it in a rather disorganized manner. I do apologise.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, apology is accepted.
14 One additional question to the witness.
15 Could you tell us whose handwriting and signature we find at the
16 bottom of that same document?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's the same signature,
18 the bottom and top. It's only bigger and smaller, so that's the
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what the -- is there any text
21 above the date, the date 6/7/7
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see the writing here. It's not
23 very clear. It should say here "approved."
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that answer.
25 Mr. Saxon, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Saxon:
2 Q. Good morning, Mr. Haraqija.
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. My name is Dan Saxon. I'm originally from the city of Boston
5 the United States and I represent the Office of the Prosecutor in these
6 proceedings, and I've got some questions for you this morning.
7 I understood from your responses to the questions of my learned
8 friend Mr. Khan that you deny all of the allegations that the Prosecution
9 has made against you in this case; is that a fair statement?
10 A. Yes, yes, of course.
11 Q. All right. So, then, I'd just like to go back for a moment.
12 When you were serving as the minister of culture, youth, and sport, you
13 were responsible for the work of that ministry; isn't that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that would mean also you were responsible for the work of the
16 employees of that ministry; isn't that right?
17 A. I'm responsible for the ministry, not for the employees. The
18 employees are responsible for themselves. This is clear.
19 Q. Just so that I understand your position, you say the employees
20 are responsible for themselves. Is it your position that you, as the
21 minister, would have no responsibility at all for the conduct of the
22 employees of that ministry?
23 A. For the behaviour of the employees, we have the disciplinary
24 committees, different committees, which we had in the ministry. I can
25 submit written complaints or oral complaints, but there are committees in
1 the ministry. The civil service is unseparated from the political
3 Q. All right. But you would also agree with me that, as the
4 minister, you were responsible for the work -- for the quality of the
5 work performed by the employees of the ministry; isn't that correct?
6 A. Yes. This is normal because the vote of the people is very
7 important, so the vote of the people can take you forward or can take you
9 Q. All right. So going back to the fact that you deny all of the
10 Prosecution's allegations in this case, just so that I understand your
11 position then, it's your position that Mr. Morina went to visit Witness 2
12 in the third country in July of 2007 strictly on his own accord; that is,
13 for Mr. Morina's personal, private reasons? That's your position, right?
14 A. We have been dealing with this issue for one year now.
15 Q. Can you answer my question.
16 A. I stick to what I've already said about this visit.
17 Q. I need an answer to my question, sir. Can you answer yes or no?
18 A. Bajrush Morina went there on his own. He did not go at my own
20 Q. All right. And, so, it's also your position, then, that you had
21 absolutely nothing to do with the meetings between Mr. Morina and
22 Witness 2 that occurred in the third country in July of 2007; right?
23 A. Yes. I had nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with that.
24 Q. Okay. So continuing, then, logically, it's also your position
25 that when Mr. Morina told Witness 2 and investigators of this Tribunal
1 that you had directed Mr. Morina to meet with Witness 2, that was a
2 complete fabrication; right? That's your position, isn't it? Mr. Morina
3 is making all of this up in terms of your involvement?
4 A. No. I didn't say that he had fabricated such things. But the
5 co-accused, I believe he is also the victim of the game of Witness 2 in
6 cooperation with the Prosecutors, as you have already failed in other
8 Q. All right. Let's take this a little bit more slowly then.
9 First of all, you don't believe that Mr. Morina was lying when he
10 implicated you in the events of this case; is that what you're saying?
11 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I do wonder if this is proper
12 cross-examination. He is putting, asking the client to comment on the
13 evidence of a completely different person. He must -- proper
14 cross-examination is ask the witness to confront his account, which is
15 completely denying this case, or to confront him with evidence. But to
16 ask him to guess and second-guess what Mr. Morina said and why he said it
17 is not proper cross-examination in my view.
18 JUDGE ORIE: There is evidence about statements, there's evidence
19 about the events in the third country, statements have been given
20 explaining what had happened. The witness may be confronted with that
22 So, Mr. Saxon, if you would do that. If you would put to him
23 that during the conversation and in the statement, the conversation
24 between Morina and the witness and the statement given by Mr. Morina,
25 that he talks about the involvement of the present witness, you may put
1 that to the witness and ask the witness whether that is untrue, whether
2 that is fabricated or a lie.
3 Perhaps you have understood meanwhile what the question is,
4 Mr. Haraqija. Was Mr. Morina, when he gave his statement and when he had
5 a recorded conversation with the witness, was he not speaking the truth
6 when he said that he acted on your instructions?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stick to what I already said.
8 This is not true.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You said Mr. Morina did not tell the truth --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not true --
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- not during this conversation and also not when he
12 gave his statement as a suspect?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not true.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. SAXON: All right.
16 Q. All right. If Mr. Morina, then, was not telling the truth, if he
17 was making this up, then logically Mr. Morina would do that to place
18 responsibility on you; isn't that right?
19 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, this is completely inappropriate. A
20 cross-examining party can't ask a witness to speculate as to the motives
21 of another individual. He should confront him with evidence, put forward
22 any other evidence he wants to the accused to controvert his denial. But
23 to ask him to speculate as to somebody else's intention is ludicrous.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon, is there any basis on which you could
25 expect this witness to know about the motives of what other people did;
1 and if so, please lay that foundation and then ask the question. If not,
2 please move on.
3 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 [Microphone not activated]
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecutor.
6 MR. SAXON: I would like to play a portion of the interview of
7 Mr. Morina with OTP investigators. This is now Exhibit P19. And the
8 portion that will be played in the transcript, in the English transcript,
9 will be page 24, line 29, to page 25, line 13.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Where do we find it in the binder, Mr. Saxon?
11 MR. SAXON: Tab 8, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. SAXON: And for those following in the Albanian language,
14 this is at page 21. This clip will begin at page 21, line 36, to
15 page 22, line 5. And the time code for this audio-recording is two
16 hours, three minutes to -- excuse me, two hours, three minutes, and two
17 seconds to two hours, five minutes, and 50 seconds.
18 If that clip could now be played right.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honours. Excuse
20 me, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I ask Mr. Saxon in what tab is
23 the Albanian language because --
24 MR. SAXON: It's tab 8 after the English language.
25 Q. But, Mr. Haraqija, you're going to be able to hear this. You're
1 going to be able to listen to the words, and you're also going to be able
2 to see the words in your own language on the screen in front of you, all
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that disappears as soon as it's been
5 played. I'm wondering what the advantages of listening to it rather than
6 to read it, which gives a good focus on the words spoken. And
7 Mr. Haraqija, I take it, from his --
8 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour.
9 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, in the meantime, I wonder if the usher
10 could help my client find the right tab, please.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please tab 8 --
12 MR. KHAN: Tab 8, Mr. Usher.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- first binder.
14 MR. SAXON: And if Mr. Haraqija's binder could be turned to
15 page 21 of the Albanian version, and if this cannot be published to the
16 public, please.
17 Q. And, Mr. Haraqija, starting at line 36 [sic] on that page, you'll
18 see a question beginning with: "And you have, in fact, called Haraqija
19 after the first meeting ..."
20 Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I'm going to continue. I'm going to use the word "Witness 2"
23 instead of the name of the witness.
24 "That's what you told" Witness 2?
25 "Just for ease of reference, page 3, 3 out of 44, on the second
2 Witness 2 "asked you, 'Maybe, maybe it will happen. Did Astrit
3 call you? What did he say?' Then you respond: 'No, he didn't either.
4 I called him yesterday ...'"
5 Now on page 25 of the English version.
6 "He sent me a message later. 'I told you, man. I said I stayed
7 with this man,' he said ... And then apparently he decided not to come.
8 Do you remember it now?"
9 You've been following me, Mr. Haraqija?
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it, Mr. Saxon, that where you said, "Then
12 you respond ..." --
13 MR. SAXON: I am referring --
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- that is --
15 MR. SAXON: The questioner is speaking to Mr. Morina during this
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. SAXON: All right.
19 Q. And now continuing on page 25, line 4 of the English, Mr. Morina
20 responds in the following: "I don't remember exactly; but as far as I
21 remember, I spoke with Veli Bytyqi because I wasn't able to contact the
22 Minister, because, as far as I remember, the Minister at that time was in
24 matter of who is Veli Bytyqi, because just to cut matters short, I might
25 have said that I spoke to the Minister, but in fact, it was - I spoke to
1 his spokesman. In other words, I didn't really lie all that much. I
2 said that I spoke to the Minister, in fact I spoke to his spokesperson.
3 And I took what the spokesperson said, his message, his instructions, as
4 being word of the Minister. I didn't reach the Minister. I think that
5 I've tried to, but I'm very sure that I didn't."
6 Have you been following me, Mr. Haraqija?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So, in this passage, Mr. Morina is effectively, as he puts it --
9 he's saying: "I didn't really lie all that much," but he is effectively
10 correcting a lie, isn't he?
11 A. As I already said earlier, I don't want to attack my co-accused
12 because he's a victim, a victim of the game of the Prosecutors and of
13 Witness Number 2.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon, you are asking the witness to interpret
15 and to explain a portion of an interview in which he did not take part,
16 and what Mr. Morina is telling in this interview to those who are
17 interviewing him, is there any reason to believe that the witness could
18 better interpret that than the Chamber?
19 MR. SAXON: Then I will move on, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
21 MR. SAXON:
22 Q. I would like to put it to you, Mr. Haraqija, that you directed
23 Mr. Morina to meet with Witness Number 2 for two reasons: In order to
24 convince the witness not to testify against Mr. Haradinaj; and, two, to
25 facilitate a meeting between yourself and Witness 2. Do you want to
1 respond to what I've just put to you?
2 A. It's your right to say what you want because that's what you are
3 paid for.
4 Q. I will take that as your response.
5 Mr. Haraqija, in 2007, you had a deputy minister working for you
6 named Angjelina Krasniqi; isn't that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. SAXON: And if the witness could be assisted now, I would
9 like to turn to tab 7 in that binder. This is now Exhibit P18.
10 Actually, I'm going to move on. I'm going to move on, and I'm
11 not going to refer to this.
12 Q. I'd like to talk to you about travel authorisations within the
13 ministry. Mr. Haraqija, when you were the minister of culture, you often
14 authorised employees of the ministry to travel abroad, didn't you?
15 A. The purpose of the Ministry of Culture, Youth, and Sport has been
16 also to internationalise sports and to establish links with the Albanian
17 Diaspora because there are many, many Albanians who live outside of
19 JUDGE ORIE: The question simply was whether you often authorised
20 employees to travel abroad. Did you often do that?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Saxon.
23 MR. SAXON:
24 Q. And, indeed, given all of the travelling that ministry employees
25 had to do, sometimes you directed staff members to travel to certain
1 events, didn't you?
2 A. No. Without invitation, they could not go anywhere.
3 Q. All right. Well, Mr. Haraqija, let's take the situations where
4 invitations had arrived to the Ministry of Culture. When there were such
5 invitations to an event in third countries, sometimes you would direct
6 particular staff members to travel to participate in those events, didn't
8 A. No, I did not say that.
9 Q. You never once as minister, after the ministry received a
10 particular invitation, directed a particular employee to travel and
11 participate in an event? You never did that?
12 A. I said when there are special invitations, especially -- we were
13 especially engaged at the time in efforts to set up legal infrastructure
14 of the ministry. We had to harmonize all the laws with the international
15 community, especially with the Council of Europe --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please answer the question. The question
17 simply was whether, when there was an invitation, whether you ever
18 directed a particular employee to travel and participate in an event.
19 Did you ever say to someone upon having received an invitation, I would
20 like you to go there to that event for which we received an invitation?
21 Did you ever do that?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, but I
23 have to be clear in -- as far as the question is concerned.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you said people could not travel if there was
25 no invitation. When there was an invitation, did you ever say to one of
1 the employees of the ministry, I'd like you to go there and attend the
2 event for which we are invited?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, can I just say there has been an issue
6 even from the opening statement regarding translation. Just as a point,
7 I think if my learned friend has problem with one question, I think
8 rephrasing it, as Your Honour just did now, is a very helpful way of
9 overcoming the translation problems from Albanian that we've been having.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon, you may proceed.
11 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. And, in fact, you also had the authority to direct your employees
13 not to travel to a particular event, didn't you?
14 A. Generally, I had the authority to stop anybody from going abroad
15 when I thought that they should not travel abroad.
16 Q. Very well. I would like to show you, please, part of the
17 interview that my office did with Mr. Morina on the 26th of October,
18 2007 --
19 MR. SAXON: Actually, before I do that, if we could show the
20 witness tab 11, please.
21 Your Honours, this is now P22. And I'm aware that there are a
22 number of pages, and I would direct the parties' attention to what is
23 ERN 0624 to 4292. And if we could move into private session for a
24 moment, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
1 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
24 MR. SAXON:
25 Q. Just so that I understand your position, Mr. Haraqija, did you
1 ever approve a request of Mr. Morina to travel for personal reasons? Did
2 you ever do that?
3 A. The requests and the invitations -- and there are, in fact,
4 hundreds of invitations and requests coming to the Ministry of Culture,
5 Youth, and Sport, and I do not think that I saw that Bajrush Morina was
6 travelling for the first time. For as long as he was there, he must have
7 travelled a lot of times.
8 Q. But it wasn't appropriate for employees of the ministry to travel
9 using ministry funds for personal reasons, was it?
10 A. I do not think he travelled for persons reasons. You see here
11 that there is an invitation, so he must have travelled in order to go
12 there upon this invitation.
13 Q. Okay. All right.
14 MR. SAXON: If we can turn now -- if we can move into public
15 session, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I think we are, Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: Ah, that is correct, Your Honour. Thank you.
18 If we can -- Mr. Usher, if you could help the witness, please,
19 and if we could turn to what is tab 8. It's Exhibit P19. And for those
20 following along in English, if you could turn to page 13, line 29. And
21 if the usher could help Mr. Haraqija, please, turn to page 12, where we
22 will start at line 11 in the Albanian version.
23 And I do think I need to move into private session again, Your
25 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
1 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
25 MR. SAXON:
1 Q. Is it your evidence that that was a legitimate invitation, to
2 meet with members of the so-called Albanian Diaspora in that city?
3 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, a foundation should be laid. The witness
4 said he's never seen this document before. He should firstly be asked --
5 well, Your Honour, it's quite basic. I think Your Honour will carry on.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon, first of all, what is a legitimate
7 invitation? I'm in doubt as to what that exactly means --
8 MR. SAXON: Then I will move on.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- and the witness has told us that he sees this
10 document for the first time.
11 Was that first time today?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw it here for the first time.
13 As I said, I have received many invitations when I was minister of
15 JUDGE ORIE: You never discussed it with your counsel, this
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have discussed, yes, but we did
18 not discuss on this invitation. This is the first time I saw this
19 invitation, when I came here. As I told you, we received thousands of
20 invitations in the Ministry of Culture. I cannot remember each of them.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. But this invitation plays a
22 prominent role in these proceedings; at least it plays a role. You never
23 discussed the content of this --
24 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, that's lawyer/client privilege. That's
25 completely inappropriate in my respectful submission.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No --
2 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, what the witness --
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- the witness tells us today that he sees something
4 today for the first time, and I think I'm entitled to ask the witness
5 whether he had knowledge - and that's what I'm asking now the content -
6 whether he has knowledge of this document. He has taken the stand, and
7 that's is own choice.
8 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, what is relevant -- first, every
9 question must be relevant. What is relevant is did he see this document
10 prior to his indictment by the Prosecution. But the way I prepare my
11 case with my client and what documents I showed to my client and what
12 lays behind it is a matter, with the greatest of respect, which the
13 Chamber should not enter upon and is trespassing, in fact. It's covered
14 by legal professional privilege --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Legal professional privilege imposes a duty on
16 counsel not to say anything about what he learned from confidential
17 conversations with his client. That privilege for counsel is also just
18 as valid as a client still imposes this duty on counsel. It's entirely
19 in the hands of the client whether or not to give any information. I'll
20 discuss this matter of a legal nature over the break with my colleagues,
21 and then see --
22 MR. KHAN: Indeed. Your Honour, the point is, of course, the
23 privilege attaches to the client not to the counsel.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. KHAN: The privilege attaches to the client, but he can't be
1 compelled to start answering questions about the communications he's had
2 with his counsel. It's, in my submission, it's a compelling point, but
3 Your Honours will perhaps consider it over the break.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider it over the break.
5 Mr. Saxon, further questions?
6 MR. SAXON: Do you wish to take the break now, Your Honour?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'd also like to know from you how much
8 time you think you would still need.
9 MR. SAXON: [Microphone not activated]
10 I believe I need about another 20 minutes, Your Honour.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon, the Chamber has considered the way in
13 which you used your time until now, and the Chamber grants ten minutes
14 after the break to conclude your cross-examination.
15 We have a break and we'll resume at 11.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give you an opportunity to continue,
19 Mr. Saxon.
20 Mr. Khan, I have heard your objection against the question. We
21 have considered the matter during the break in quite some depth. We
22 expect you not to intervene any more at this moment. We have heard your
23 objection, and I will put one or more questions to the witness.
24 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Haraqija, we're talking earlier about the
1 documents, the invitation. You told us that you have seen this document
2 for the first time today. My question to you is: Did you never see this
3 document or discuss with anyone, including Mr. Khan, the content of this
4 document which is the invitation?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I sincerely said that I saw this
6 document here because this issue became a case, but this does not mean
7 that I haven't seen it in Pristina due to the reasons that in our office
8 we received many invitations.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm talking about this invitation, and the
10 question is two-fold: First, whether you've seen it before today;
11 second, whether you discussed the content of it with anyone.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible to have seen the
13 invitation in Pristina but not paid attention to it because there were
14 many invitations. I saw it here, but I did not discuss it.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You did not discuss it with anyone before today?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You gave now two answers. The first one that you
18 did not discuss it. Now you say: "I don't remember."
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as I said, I had
20 received many invitations in the past while I was in Kosova. This one
21 may be part of those invitations that I've seen. However, the content of
22 this invitation, I did not discuss it --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Not with anyone, including in your conversations
24 with Mr. Khan?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall to have discussed it
1 with Mr. Khan because, as I said at the opening of this trial, I don't
2 feel comfortable in the position of the accused. I feel under stress. I
3 don't remember all the details in this story, but I don't think I have
4 discussed it with Mr. Khan.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon.
6 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Mr. Haraqija, as a minister -- as the minister of culture, you
8 must have kept a very busy schedule; isn't that right?
9 A. It depends on the period of time.
10 Q. Well, you met with high-level officials, didn't you, ambassadors,
11 foreign ministers?
12 A. Yes. I met with ambassadors, with presidents, with ministers of
13 different countries of south-eastern Europe, with foreign secretaries,
14 including the foreign secretary of the United States, of England
15 their departments for foreign affairs. I've met with those people.
16 Q. Well, on a typical working week between Monday and Friday, you
17 would have had a busy schedule, wouldn't you?
18 A. As I said, it depended on the time.
19 Q. All right. I'd like to show you a document, please.
20 MR. SAXON: With the usher's assistance can we turn to what is
21 tab 27.
22 Your Honours, that would be in your second binder.
23 And if the witness could be assisted, please, and if we could
24 turn to the Albanian version.
25 Your Honours, in the English version, we will focus on the first
1 page as ERN number 0624-4331. In the Albanian version, we will focus on
2 the third page, which has the same ERN number, 0624-4331.
3 Q. Mr. Haraqija, this is a copy of your agenda from April through
4 July 2007. It was provided to the Office of the Prosecutor pursuant to a
5 search warrant issued by the Trial Chamber, and this copy was obtained by
6 investigators on the 8th of November, 2007.
7 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, this has been produced as part of the
8 witness statement of Peter Mitford-Burgess or as an associated document
9 with it.
10 Q. If you can please turn your mind, Mr. Haraqija, to the entry for
11 Tuesday, the 10th of July; do you see that?
12 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, perhaps you could assist the witness. It
13 is the third page in the Albanian version.
14 Q. Do you see Tuesday, July 10th?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you see on Tuesday that day, the 10th of July, you have an
17 appointment from noon
19 A. It is possible.
20 Q. And then we see after 12.30, on the 10th of July, you have no
21 commitments until 9.30 in the morning on the 12th of July. Do you see
23 A. Well, this does not mean that all my meetings -- there were
24 entries for all my meetings in the agenda.
25 Q. Well, but the purpose of keeping an agenda is to record what your
1 commitments are so that you can keep them, isn't it?
2 A. We were not duty-bound to put them on paper.
3 Q. Witness, you were completely free on the 11th of July, Wednesday,
4 a working day, do you see that, according to this agenda?
5 A. I don't think it includes all my commitment. Usually, on
6 Wednesdays at 12.00, I have meetings with members of the LDK. That's why
7 I was quite surprised not to see this entry for a meeting with the LDK
8 because we had party meetings twice a week. So these were meetings of
9 the LDK at central level. So as the -- in the position of the chairman
10 of Gjakova municipality, I had to participate in these meetings.
11 Q. Witness, can you turn the page, please. On the next page, you
12 will see Wednesday, June 27th. We're going back in time now. And you
13 will see that there is no entry for a meeting at 12.00 with members of
14 your party, is there?
15 A. That's what I, in fact, said, that the agenda does not contain
16 all the entries. You can go through the minutes of the meetings of the
17 LDK central committee, and you will see there that I attended every
18 meeting. On Wednesdays and Mondays in Pristina, we hold meetings of the
19 leadership of the LDK.
20 These meetings were -- are also held in Gjakova for technical
21 reasons sometimes; and in these meetings, I also participate once a week.
22 If it was impossible for me to travel to Gjakova, then I would hold these
23 meetings of the LDK party in Pristina twice a week.
24 Q. Mr. Haraqija, I would like to put it to you that you kept
25 Wednesday, the 11th of July, free on your calendar in case that you
1 decided finally to travel to the third country to meet with Witness 2.
2 How would you respond to that?
3 A. I don't think your question has a good foundation. You see the
4 entry for 18th June, that part, in that section there's no entry. I'm
5 just following your example, Mr. Prosecutor. You see for the dates
6 14th and 15th May. There is no entry either.
7 Q. I'm going to move on to another topic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon, I limited your time. One or two or three
9 short questions. I mean, it was a ruling by the Chamber that you would
10 have ten minutes. You have now taken those ten minutes approximately,
11 so, therefore, take our ruling seriously.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. SAXON:
14 Q. Mr. Haraqija, you believed -- I'll start again. You agreed to
15 become the deputy chairman of the committee to defend Ramush Haradinaj in
16 part because you believed that the prosecution of Ramush Haradinaj by
17 this Tribunal was unjust, didn't you?
18 A. No, this is not what I said. With the request of the
19 late-president, Mr. Ibrahim Rugova, I became the deputy chairman for
20 raising funds for Haradinaj. As I said earlier, there were individuals
21 at the time who claimed that President Rugova was a Serb collaborator and
22 did not support the war.
23 I have stated publicly in the media on frequent occasions that
24 the parties that came out from the war do not have members as much as the
25 LDK have fighters. I've already stated one of the reasons was that the
1 AAK at the time only enjoyed 8 per cent of the electorate. At the time
2 we were, as a party, were in coalition with this party. As we were --
3 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
4 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honours. I will sit down now.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Haraqija, I have the following question for you.
9 You twice during your testimony said that Witness 2 was -- let me just
10 check so that I can quote you literally. You told us that you believed
11 Mr. Morina also to be the victim of the game of Witness 2 in cooperation
12 with the Prosecutors.
13 Could you explain to us what that game was and how Mr. Morina
14 became a victim in this game.
15 A. I still think -- after everything that I've read, I'm fully
16 convinced that the co-accused is a good man. He comes and has a
17 wonderful family. I don't know the intentions of Witness 2 --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I asked you not to explain about the family of
19 Witness 2. I asked you what was the game that was played, as you
20 suggested, by Witness 2 in cooperation with the Prosecutors? Let's first
21 leave it to that. What was the game?
22 A. Most sincerely, Your Honour, I think that this is the game of
23 Witness 2, either for his personal interest or because he's paid by
24 someone, because Witness 2, as we understand now, was a witness in the
25 Haradinaj trial. I don't know his personal profit and why he blemished
1 my name and the name of Mr. Morina. It is Witness 2 who knows this best.
2 You, as a Trial Chamber, will decide on this, but I deny all the
3 allegations that the Prosecution made against me, and I'm proud of my
4 name as Astrit Haraqija. Maybe I'm not --
5 JUDGE ORIE: You are giving speeches rather than answer my
6 questions. A game suggests, if it's a game, as you said, between
7 Witness 2 and the Prosecution, that two people are in one way or the
8 other engaged in that game. Now, tell us what that game was.
9 A. In my opinion, it is a game because they share the same aim: To
10 blemish the good names in Kosova. As they failed in the Haradinaj trial,
11 the Prosecutor had to come up with something else, which again was
12 unfounded. And that's why I said that Mr. Morina was a victim of this
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And how became he victimised? Because your
15 answer suggests that they took Mr. Morina to the third country, or I do
16 not see exactly how he became a victim.
17 A. I sincerely didn't deal with this issue. Now it's been ten
18 months that I've been involved in this process, but the Prosecutor with
19 the associates know very well how they organized this game.
20 Mr. Morina --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. Being a victim suggests that
22 something happens to you that you do not want. I would like you to
23 explain to me at what moment something happened to Mr. Morina he wished
24 not to happen, because that's what would make him a victim. When for the
25 first time something happened Mr. Morina would not have wished to happen,
1 where he was put in that situation by Witness 2 and the Office of the
2 Prosecution. That's my question to you.
3 A. Maybe I'm being misunderstood. I'm frankly saying that
4 Mr. Morina, as it was proved by Witness 2, had previous meetings with
5 him. They had different interviews. In addition, Witness 2 was
6 Witness 77, as I heard it here, in the Haradinaj trial. And this game,
7 as I said, was prepared by Witness 2 for his personal gains in
8 cooperation with the Prosecution. I don't know what their maths was, but
9 they were involved in this game. I feel innocent and I believe
10 Mr. Morina is also innocent.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any fact known to you which could
12 illustrate that the Office of the Prosecution was involved in whatever
13 way with Mr. Morina's travel to the third country?
14 A. The fact is the following. Why had Mr. Morina to go there on my
15 behalf? I'm not a small child. I know who I am. I would have gone
16 there myself. I wouldn't have needed to send Mr. Morina there. Maybe
17 I'm not a hero but also I don't fear anyone.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any fact known to you which could
19 illustrate that the Office of the Prosecution influenced the conversation
20 between Mr. Morina and Witness 2, wherein he said that he came, acted on
21 your instructions, and that part of the conversation was about whether or
22 not to testify?
23 So is there any fact known to you that the Office of the
24 Prosecution would have influenced the text spoken by Mr. Morina during
25 this conversation with Witness 2?
1 A. One of the facts is the indictment; secondly, it's not a good
2 feeling to go in an investigation room and be locked there for hours --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I think you misunderstood my question. I was
4 referring to the conversation in the lobby of a hotel in the third
6 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I sat down very quietly; and, of course,
7 it's for Your Honours to decide how to ensure a fair trial. But the
8 witness at no stage has said that the Prosecution have put words, have --
9 how was it phrased? That he has not influenced the text spoken by
10 Mr. Morina. That evidence has been given by Your Honour, with the
11 greatest of respect. It has never come out of the mouth of my client.
12 Your Honours, of course, it's an imperillous position for counsel
13 to address the Bench when the Bench have sovereign discretion; but, Your
14 Honour, there's no foundation at all for the question you've just put to
15 the witness. The foundation, of course, only was the witness's view that
16 he was part of a game because he had been unfairly indicted.
17 Your Honour, I just put that down for the record.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm exploring at this moment what is the basis
19 for calling this a game, and I'm focusing very much on the time-line.
20 Mr. Haraqija, you may have misunderstood the question, my
21 question about whether in any way the Prosecution would have influenced
22 the words spoken by Mr. Morina. I referred to the words spoken as
23 recorded during the conversation with Witness 2 in the third country.
24 A. I don't know, Your Honour. I never worked for the Prosecution,
25 and that's why I don't know how this game came to exist.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
2 One other question. I have looked at your agenda, and you just
3 looked at it as well, under tab 27. Now, this agenda, is this an agenda
4 which is a hard-copy agenda, or is it a computerized agenda of which you
5 can make print-outs?
6 A. Your Honour, the agenda was kept by my assistants. I had four
7 assistants working in the Ministry of Culture, and they kept agenda
8 concerning the official invitations for meetings. As for my personal
9 agenda, I didn't keep it in the computer because, as I said, there were
10 meetings at a party level on Mondays, on Wednesdays. I never made
11 entries, so these meetings were afterwards. The entries for these
12 meetings were updated and put into the computer by the assistants.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And how did you keep your personal agenda? Was this
14 handwritten, hard copy? How did you keep that agenda?
15 A. Usually on my mobile phone, on the calendar and reminder section.
16 On my private phone I kept these entries; for example, set a reminder for
17 a meeting with deputy prime minister or meeting with family. So all
18 these things, I kept it on my phone and set a reminder for them.
19 JUDGE ORIE: How did you synchronise that with your assistants?
20 Because if I try to imagine two different electronic agendas, one part of
21 your agenda, the other another part of your agenda. How did you
22 synchronise that with your assistants?
23 A. I was able to see the agenda. Let's say I received it on Monday
24 morning for the entire week. In the meantime, we could have received
25 other invitations. The meetings that I deemed unnecessary, I didn't
1 participate at these meetings. For example, 16th of July, invitation by
2 the International Northern Faculty, I didn't attend this meeting.
3 Another example, there are plenty of examples here, invitation, 8.30 to
4 9.00, concert on the occasion of the visit of a mayor of a municipality,
5 I didn't participate in this meeting. It doesn't mean that I took part
6 in all the meetings. I took part only in those that I deemed important
7 and necessary.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Saxon, in the binder, as far
9 as the agenda is concerned, I find many weeks covered in the original
10 language. I see only two weeks covered in English.
11 Now, the witness starts explaining more about the remainder of
12 his agenda. For example, 16th of July doesn't appear in translation, so
13 I have difficulties to fully understand without having received the
14 translation. The witness has told us about his usual meetings at 12.00
15 on Wednesday. I still can decipher that most of the Wednesdays do not
16 contain a 12.00 appointment, but what is there I cannot tell you without
17 a translation.
18 MR. SAXON: [Microphone not activated]
19 With the greatest respect, Your Honour, Monday, July 16th --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you're right.
21 MR. SAXON: I apologise.
22 JUDGE ORIE. I missed that.
23 MR. SAXON: But, yes, Your Honour, these -- with the resources,
24 the translation resources that the Prosecution has, these were the
25 pages --
1 JUDGE ORIE: To be quite honest, the 16th does not appear in
2 English under tab 27. I have got two pages, the first one July 9th to
3 July 15th --
4 MR. SAXON: I stand corrected.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- and the second one July the 2nd to July the 8th,
6 and not July the 16th, which, of course, appears in the original but not
7 in translation.
8 MR. SAXON: I stand corrected, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 You are under a duty to provide translations of every exhibit.
11 Would you please take care that the Chamber receives the whole of the
12 agenda translated.
13 Mr. Khan, you or I take it that at least the accused could read
14 it, where the Chamber is --
15 MR. KHAN: Your Honours, no objection for a translation to be
16 served after the case.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dieckmann.
18 MR. DIECKMANN: Also no objection, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Mr. Khan, any need for further questions triggered either by the
21 cross-examining party or by the questions put by the Bench?
22 MR. KHAN: Yes, Your Honour.
23 Re-examination by Mr. Khan:
24 Q. Mr. Haraqija, were matters of your personal phone, were matters
25 included on your daily planner that were not included on the schedule
1 that's before you? Were appointments included on your mobile phone that
2 cropped up that would not have been included on your personal planner; is
3 that possible or not?
4 A. It is possible, of course. Only, if you look at the agenda, you
5 will see that for some dates you have no entries.
6 Q. Now, is it correct - this arises out of the Trial Chamber's
7 questions of you - is it correct that I met you in Kosova between the
8 29th of May and the 1st of June of this year? Do you remember that, when
9 I came alone or about that period, if you don't remember the dates,
10 around that period?
11 A. Yes, we did meet, I know that, but I don't know the exact dates
12 when we met.
13 Q. And that's the only time I went to Kosova, is that right, in
14 relation to this case?
15 A. To my knowledge, yes.
16 Q. My two legal assistants, pro bono legal assistant, Caroline
17 Buisman and Gissou Azarnia, who are sitting behind me, they came to
18 Kosova, did they, between the 17th of July and the 24th of July. Do you
19 remember that or thereabouts? I don't expect you to remember the exact
20 dates, but do you remember that?
21 A. Yes, yes, I do.
22 Q. And is it correct that any documents -- they discussed with you
23 various documents about this case?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is it correct that once they left, we were sending -- my team was
1 sending to you confidentially by e-mail further batches of Prosecution
2 disclosure that were received after that time to your private e-mail
3 account? Do you remember that?
4 A. Yes. You sent these materials, but I didn't look through all of
5 them because I have problems with English.
6 Q. Did we have an investigator in Kosova to assist your defence, yes
7 or no?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Sorry. Let me put it again. Apart from Caroline Buisman and
10 Gissou Azarnia, was anybody appointed by the Tribunal as an investigator
11 that could conduct investigations, or was it done by Ms. Buisman and
12 Ms. Azarnia?
13 A. These two ladies and the interpreter who facilitated the
15 Q. Did you open any of the e-mails that we sent you to your private
16 account or not, or don't you remember?
17 A. I opened some of them, not all of them.
18 Q. The invitation, did I ever produce that invitation to you and
19 show it to you directly?
20 A. No.
21 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful, Your Honour. I've got no further
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Khan.
24 Mr. Haraqija, this concludes your testimony. I invite you take
25 your old position again; that is, the position of an accused.
1 Mr. Khan, are you ready to call your next witness?
2 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I am. Before I do that, I'm very happy
3 to call one of my legal assistants. Before I do that, I asked my learned
4 friend before the break to agree a stipulation that we received the
5 invitation that Your Honour was talking about for the first time in
6 The Hague
7 the disclosure, 21st of July, when my Legal officer -- my legal
8 assistant -- my pro bono assistant, because there was no funding, and the
9 legal assistant, were already on the ground in Kosova. I'd like that
10 stipulation, that that was the date this invitation was first given to
11 the Defence.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon.
13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, may I just check one thing. I am
14 checking the confirmation material which would have been provided to the
15 Defence much earlier.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Take your time for that.
17 Meanwhile, Mr. Khan, we could --
18 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, if you want, I'm very happy to call my
19 legal assistant on this issue if --
20 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber is not calling any Chamber witnesses at
21 this moment, so, therefore, if you want to do it, you should seek
22 permission to add the witness to the 65 ter list, but Mr. Saxon
23 apparently has found something.
24 MR. SAXON: This invitation was contained within the confirmation
25 material for this case, which, actually, was provided to the Defence, I
1 believe, at the time of the initial appearance at the end of April.
2 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I hadn't seen it before, but that's my
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber does not attach great relevance to the
6 fact whether the 21st of July or in the confirmation material you first
7 received --
8 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, the only matter I will raise, and my
9 learned friend can dispute it - I raise it just because it's rather
10 awkward because I don't want to give evidence myself; that's the
11 difficulty of this inquiry - but I did inform the Prosecution that the
12 first CD they gave which was given to the locker, which is not my locker,
13 it is the locker of the Stojic team, I didn't receive that, and I sent an
14 e-mail that I didn't receive that CD. Your Honour, I don't wish to
15 belabour the point.
16 Your Honour, another matter, I'm told by the legal assistant of
17 the second accused that that invitation wasn't in their bundles either.
18 It was served at court by Mr. Re in hard copy form. Your Honour, if you
19 want to litigate it further, we can; but, otherwise, I am not going to go
20 any further.
21 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has not expressed any wish to further
22 litigate the matter.
23 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, the next witness in that case is
24 Edmond Kuqi, if he can be brought in. While he is brought in, if I could
25 quickly summarize, with Your Honours' leave, the general areas of his
2 He was the driver of Astrit Haraqija, and he drove my client's
3 wife Zana to Peja for the opening of a theatre and he was present at the
4 time. His evidence in his statement is that he heard no mention of the
5 protected witness in this case, he heard no mention of ICTY proceedings
6 or any order, as alleged by the Prosecution, to direct Mr. Morina to
7 intimidate or harass or dissuade that witness from testifying.
8 Your Honours, in addition, he will tender photographs which are
9 detailed in the statement and in a separable part of the statement,
10 detailing where people are sitting. Your Honours, I believe those have
11 been distributed. No. Perhaps they can be distributed.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not seeing them.
13 That concludes your summary, Mr. Khan?
14 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Kuqi. Mr. Kuqi, before you give
18 evidence, the Rules require you to make a solemn declaration that you'll
19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text is
20 now handed out to you by Mr. Usher. May I invite you to make that solemn
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will tell
23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
25 You'll first be examined by Mr. Khan, who's counsel for
1 Mr. Haraqija.
2 MR. KHAN: [Microphone not activated]
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 WITNESS: EDMOND KUQI
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Examination by Mr. Khan:
7 Q. Good morning, sir. Could you give your full name to the Court,
9 A. Edmond
10 Q. And your date of birth is the 5th of August, 1971; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, perhaps, with the usher's assistance, the
13 witness can be shown the statement dated the 19th of July in Albanian,
15 Q. Mr. Kuqi, if you could please look at the -- this document. Is
16 that a true record of a statement you gave on the 19th of July, 2008
17 A. Yes, this is it.
18 Q. And you've had the opportunity of reading that statement and
19 verifying its contents; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And is it correct that if you were to give live evidence before
22 the Court, you would attest all these matters as true? You would give
23 evidence consistent with this statement; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In the statement, you mention indicating seating arrangements on
1 two photographs; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. KHAN: With the usher's assistance, perhaps the witness can
4 be shown the two photographs in question and copies given to the
5 Trial Chamber.
6 Your Honours, these were shown previously to the Prosecution.
7 They are on a separable part of the statement, and I would ask, with Your
8 Honours' leave, if they could be added to the 65 ter list and given
9 exhibit numbers.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon, two requests.
11 MR. SAXON: No objection, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could you please assign numbers to
13 the photographs.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, photograph number 4D becomes
15 Exhibit D5; and photograph 5D becomes Exhibit Number D6.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D5 and 6, with the absence of objections, are
17 admitted into evidence.
18 MR. KHAN:
19 Q. These two photographs, what do they show? Could you deal with
20 the one on your left first -- sorry, the one on your right, first, which
21 is D6 -- sorry, it should be D5. I do apologise -- no, it's D6. Yes.
22 If you could perhaps start with that one, what does that show?
23 A. This is the place where we were sitting on that day.
24 Q. Where was that, which place?
25 A. This is called Hotel Metohija in the centre.
1 Q. Centre of which town?
2 A. Peja.
3 Q. And the other photograph, what does that show, the one with many
4 tables? There's four tables, and then at a right angle the tables
5 continue with wicker chairs.
6 A. This is the place where I went to after the performance. In the
7 evening, we went there all together.
8 Q. And have you indicated where various people are sitting on these
10 A. As far as I remember, I have already shown you the place where
11 the people were sitting at.
12 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I will leave it there. Any further
13 clarification can be sought by the Prosecution with your leave.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing I'd like to check is I see markings
15 there. "Ast" stands for Astrit Haraqija?
16 MR. KHAN: Indeed.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have to the right of that, yes. Of course,
18 I'm not seeking or eliciting evidence from you, Mr. Khan.
19 MR. KHAN: Of course, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. KHAN:
22 Q. On the left of -- looking at the photograph, looking at the
23 photograph, you see "Ast" in the middle. Is it correct that's Astrit
24 Haraqija that is signified?
25 A. Yes, yes --
1 Q. And, again --
2 A. -- this is the abbreviation.
3 Q. -- and to the right, it says "Ast - wife." Is that Astrit
4 Haraqija's wife?
5 A. Yes, his wife.
6 Q. And, again, looking at the photograph to the left of Astrit, what
7 name is there?
8 A. Kasapolli, Mr. Kasapolli.
9 Q. And right at the top end of the table on the right, there is
10 "E-d-i, Edi." Who is that?
11 A. That's me.
12 Q. And this document, D5, this is the photograph that you say shows
13 the cafe in Peja; is that right, so we're clear?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And turning to the next photograph, the one that you say is the
16 dinner that you went to after the performance, could you similarly assist
17 the Trial Chamber by telling them what your abbreviations show. Who are
18 the people detailed by the abbreviations? The first we come to on the
19 right, it says "Ast.w." Who is that?
20 A. His wife, Astrit's wife.
21 Q. After that, it says "Ast." Is that Astrit Haraqija?
22 A. Yes, Astrit.
23 Q. After that?
24 A. Kasapolli.
25 Q. And in the right and the left-hand side corner, there are two
1 other names there that are rather difficult to read in the copy. Could
2 you tell Their Honours what you've written there in those seating places?
3 A. Mr. Bytyqi and Mr. Morina.
4 Q. And the other people, who were occupying the other chairs that
5 you haven't put names on? Were they empty or were people sitting in
7 A. No, all the chairs were occupied. They were the actors who had
8 performed on that night. They were also people of institutions from
10 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, unless you think I can take it further, I
11 intend to leave it there.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would like to hear from the witness who
13 was seated on the half-visible chair, bottom left, in the cafe.
14 MR. KHAN: Ah, yes. I'm grateful, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You see that, Mr. Kuqi?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Bytyqi, Veli Bytyqi, was
17 sitting there.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 MR. KHAN:
20 Q. And on the extreme right, if I didn't cover it before, the
21 extreme right of the photograph, of D5, the cafe?
22 A. Mr. Morina.
23 Q. I'm grateful.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the first -- oh, yes. I see a slight red
25 marking on the first chair.
1 MR. KHAN:
2 Q. What do those red marks signify? You see, His Honour has drawn
3 our attention to the red marks between where you say Veli is sitting and
4 where the word "Bajrush" is annotated, and there are two red lines --
5 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm not talking of that line. It's just where
6 he says the seat of Mr. Morina was, that is, because it is almost
7 impossible to read it. That's the bottom --
8 MR. KHAN: Right --
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- chair right-hand side row.
10 Is that correct?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bajrush is there.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
13 MR. KHAN:
14 Q. And is anything signified by those two lines or not?
15 A. They were very close to each other.
16 Q. Close --
17 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has no questions --
18 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful --
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- as far as the lines are concerned.
20 MR. KHAN: I'm most grateful.
21 JUDGE ORIE: These were your questions?
22 MR. KHAN: Yes.
23 Q. If you could stay there, there will be some questions from my
24 learned friend.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First of all, Mr. Dieckmann, do you have any
1 questions to the witness?
2 MR. DIECKMANN: No, thank you, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Saxon:
5 Q. Mr. Kuqi, it's now afternoon, so good afternoon. My name is Dan
6 Saxon. I represent the Prosecution in this case. I'm from the United
8 You were the driver of Mr. Haraqija in the summer of 2007; is
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And, in your statement, you talk about this social cultural event
12 that you drove him to in the city of Peja
13 did you take Mr. Haraqija to similar kinds of social cultural events?
14 Once a week? More? Less? How often?
15 A. Whenever that was necessary, whenever there were invitations,
16 whenever he asked me, I took him.
17 Q. Sure. But can you give us a general estimate. Were invitations
18 given to him on a weekly basis?
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. Okay. Well, how many months did you serve as his driver?
21 A. Officially, six years.
22 Q. Six years. Would it be fair to say that during those six years
23 that you drove and accompanied Mr. Haraqija to these kinds of social or
24 cultural events dozens of times?
25 A. I have been his driver from the morning until late whenever he
1 wanted me to stay with him. Whenever he wanted me to take him somewhere,
2 I took him there.
3 Q. Mr. Kuqi, I don't know if there's a problem with the translation.
4 I thought my question was fairly simple. You told us that you served as
5 Mr. Haraqija's driver for six years, so my question was: Would it be
6 fair to say that during those six years, you would have accompanied
7 Mr. Haraqija to such -- these kinds of social gathering dozens of times
8 over those six years?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And this gathering, this evening in Peja, first at the cafe and
11 then the dinner party after the theatre, that was a typical social
12 cultural gathering like many others that you had attended; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And as you describe in your statement, the conversations were
15 generally light-hearted; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Are you able to tell us, please, for those other dozens of social
18 gatherings to which you accompanied Mr. Haraqija, are you able to tell
19 the Trial Chamber the seating positions of the persons who were present?
20 A. It depends on the event. It depends on the events. You asked me
21 about that particular event, and I described it to you.
22 Q. Okay. I'm just trying to understand. You acknowledged that this
23 was a typical social gathering; right? And I'm just trying to
24 understand, was there something special about this event that stuck in
25 your memory or permitted you to keep the seating arrangements stuck into
1 your memory?
2 A. No, there was nothing special; the usual thing.
3 Q. I see.
4 MR. SAXON: If we can show the witness what I believe is now
5 Exhibit D5, it's the photograph -- or if the witness can take a look at
6 the photograph where -- of the cafe.
7 Q. You have that -- you can see that photograph now?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you see -- actually, before I ask you some questions about
10 this photograph, during this gathering at the cafe, did anyone go up --
11 get up to use the restroom?
12 A. As far as I remember, no.
13 Q. Were you taking note of this, though?
14 A. I did not stay in the cafe for a long time. We just had a cup of
15 coffee and then we went away.
16 Q. If you look in this photograph, you see two motor-scooters there
17 in the upper left-hand counter. Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell us, please, whether those motor-scooters were there
20 when you arrived?
21 A. These photos have been taken lately. There was a vehicle in the
22 place of the motor-scooters, and there was another car then.
23 Q. We see some people walking by here. Were there people passing
24 by, walking by, that evening?
25 A. Yes, definitely so.
1 Q. And, occasionally, did you observe these people?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Well, how are you able to tell us, then, that there were persons
4 walking by?
5 A. It was day; and, of course, I saw people passing before me
6 just -- my eyes must have been in that direction.
7 Q. Okay. Moving toward -- toward the dinner after the theatre,
8 which would be where you have the seating arrangement in D6, you were
9 sitting a bit outside of this picture, is that correct, a bit to what we
10 see -- a bit off the left edge of this photograph? Is that fair?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How far away were you from that table?
13 A. Not very far away. This was a table in which four people were
15 Q. Were you able to hear every single conversation that took place
16 around these tables?
17 A. No.
18 Q. So, then, you cannot be sure then that during that evening, after
19 the theatre, someone might have mentioned the case of Mr. Haradinaj, can
21 A. It's clear in the photo that I was sitting close to Mr. Haraqija,
22 his wife, and Mr. Kasapolli. There were also the municipal officials and
23 also the theatre actors.
24 Q. But you were not able to hear every single conversation around
25 that table, could you?
1 A. No.
2 Q. So it is at least possible then, isn't it, that the --
3 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, can I just say, as I said for the last --
4 for the witness yesterday, we're not alleging any of these witnesses,
5 including the next one, is omniscient, and that definitively certain
6 things were not discussed. All they can say is that they heard certain
7 things. I hope that's, to a degree, of assistance to my learned friend.
8 I is not being alleged; it's definitive. It's simply the people
9 who were present, that we're calling, didn't hear anything of that
10 nature. I don't think a witness can't be expected to say more. I don't
11 know whether it helps or not.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether it helps or not, you've said it now,
13 Mr. Saxon heard it, and he's invited to proceed.
14 MR. SAXON:
15 Q. At the dinner, you mentioned that there were around 40 people
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. It must have, then, gotten fairly loud in this room during the
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And wouldn't all of that other conversation going on have
22 possibly prevented you from hearing bits of a conversation that
23 Mr. Haraqija had?
24 A. I was not in their table. I was sitting at another table.
25 Q. All right. Well, does that mean you were not able to hear all of
1 the conversations that Mr. Haraqija engaged in that evening after the
2 theatre in this restaurant in D6?
3 A. No, I wasn't able to hear everything.
4 Q. Okay.
5 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
8 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, no re-examination.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No re-examination.
10 Judge Moloto has one or more questions for you.
11 Questioned by the Court:
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, is it correct that Mr. Haraqija and
13 Mr. Morina worked in the same office in the Ministry of Culture and Sport
14 and Youth?
15 A. They didn't work in the same office.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, in the same ministry.
17 A. Yes, in the same ministry, yes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you were not always with them on a daily
20 A. No, only with Mr. Haraqija.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is there a possibility that they could have met in
22 the ministry without you being there?
23 A. The office of Mr. Haraqija was on the other side and Mr. Morina's
24 on the opposite side of the ministry.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not my question. Will you please answer my
1 question. Please answer my question.
2 A. That I don't know.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: But that possibility does exist, doesn't it?
4 A. I don't know. I don't know what to say.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You were not always with Mr. Haraqija; you were
6 only with him at those times when you were driving him out?
7 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, if it assists, I can make that concession
8 as well. I can make these concessions. He's not a bed-fellow of the
9 client; and, of course, it's open that meetings could have taken place in
10 the ministry. A concession can be made, Your Honours, by the Defence.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was just trying to find out what the relevance
12 of this whole study of the cafe you say.
13 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I'll address that in closing arguments.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 No further questions.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Bench has no further questions, Mr. Khan,
17 may I take it that the questions of the Bench --
18 MR. KHAN: Yes, I'm most grateful. Perhaps the witness can be
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Mr. Kuqi, this concludes your testimony. I thank you for having
22 come and having answered the questions.
23 Mr. Khan, I think that the 92 ter statement has not been assigned
24 a number yet. Of course, you made the application to --
25 MR. KHAN: Yes, Your Honour --
1 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... but, nonetheless --
2 MR. KHAN: If it can be assigned a number, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit Number D7.
5 JUDGE ORIE: D7. I think we decided already that it was admitted
6 as --
7 MR. KHAN: I'm most grateful --
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... under the condition that
9 the condition has been fulfilled. So, therefore, D7 is in now evidence.
10 The witness may leave the courtroom.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 MR. KHAN: I'm most grateful.
13 Whilst the usher -- and perhaps, as you know, the next witness --
14 MR. SAXON: I'm very, very sorry to interrupt my learned friend.
15 There is just one point that I must communicate to the Trial Chamber
16 because I gave some incorrect information to the Trial Chamber a few
17 moments ago, and I need to correct that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
19 MR. SAXON: During the conversation whether -- there was
20 discussion about whether Mr. Haraqija had seen a particular document or
21 not, and I informed the Chamber and the parties that this document formed
22 part of the confirmation material for this case which would have been
23 then disclosed at the initial appearance. And I believed that to be the
24 case because my staff provided me with such a binder in which this
25 document is present; however, my case manager has informed me that this
1 particular document was not part of the confirmation materials that were
2 filed with this Chamber.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It's good to have that on the record. I think the
4 Chamber expressed itself already about how important it was --
5 MR. KHAN: I'll move on, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... to know --
7 MR. KHAN: I'm not intending to call the legal assistant.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. KHAN: The next witness is Mr. Agim Kasapolli.
10 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you need with him?
11 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I think I should resign and retire. I am
12 an abysmal failure in giving time estimates. I was very much hopeful we
13 would finish today, but matters have dragged on. I think I'll be -- he's
14 also giving some evidence as to the character of the accused. So perhaps
15 less than half an hour, 20 minutes perhaps.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, perhaps I'm -- how long would you like me
18 to spend with this witness? I'm trying to be as helpful as possible?
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is still very much inclined to see
21 whether we can finish today. I do understand that we could continue
22 until 2.00. We'll be a bit more strict now on times. We'll first have
23 the break. The break will be until 20 minutes to 1.00.
24 Then, Mr. Khan, if it will be possible for you to examine the
25 witness in 20 minutes or less, would that be feasible?
1 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, as long as my learned friend doesn't mind
2 me leading on some matters, I'll try to be as judicious as possible.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Mr. Saxon.
5 MR. SAXON: That's fine, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then could you, Mr. Saxon, be very organized in your
7 cross-examination, so that we could finish by five minutes past 1.00.
8 Mr. Dieckmann, do you have any questions for the next witness?
9 MR. DIECKMANN: Yes. I just wanted to indicate that there could
10 be a very few numbers of questions, yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's see whether we can then finish not later
12 than ten minutes past 1.00, then we'd have another 50 minutes. The
13 parties are invited to see whether they can be so focused in their
14 closing argument. I think that most of the issues are perfectly clear to
15 the Chamber. So, therefore, there's no need in any way to repeat
16 anything which we find already in the pre-trial briefs. Of course, the
17 Chamber's carefully listened to the testimony of today and has not found
18 many new issues.
19 The parties are invited to consider that.
20 Mr. Saxon, would you think that that would be possible, 50
21 minutes -- well, let's say, would it be fair to say 20 minutes for the
22 Prosecution and each Defence team 15 minutes?
23 MR. KHAN: Absolutely impossible, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Impossible.
25 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, there's no closing brief. I've really
1 bent over backwards, I think in fairness, to be as efficient as I can
2 with the use of time. I didn't expect the last witness even would take
3 ever so long.
4 I've tried to make concessions wherever I can; but on some
5 issues, I must dig in. I think -- my inclination for the Trial Chamber's
6 knowledge is that I was expecting and I was going to ask for an hour and
7 a half for closing speech.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. KHAN: Yesterday, I said an hour to match Mr. Saxon, and I
10 will try to do it within half an hour or thereabouts, but 15 minutes is
11 impossible, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll consider the further scheduling during
13 the break. We will also take into consideration how the time is used.
14 Until now - and I'm not saying this party or that party - but in total we
15 have not worked as efficiently as we could have worked. I leave it to
17 We'll resume at 20 minutes to 1.00 --
18 MR. KHAN: Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. KHAN: One additional matter for saving time, there are two
21 92 bis statements. I'm in Your Honours' hands. Perhaps there's no need
22 to read them out in totality.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that under the present
24 circumstances, the 92 bis statements could just be assigned numbers and
25 that we do not have any urgent need to have them summarized and read.
1 MR. KHAN: I'm most grateful.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 We resume at 20 minutes to 1.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. I take it you'll be Mr. Kasapolli?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: From your answer, I do understand that -- I do learn
10 that you can hear me in a language you understand.
11 Mr. Kasapolli, before you give evidence in this court, the Rules
12 require you to make a solemn declaration. The text will now be handed
13 out to you by the usher. May I invite you to make that solemn
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kasapolli. You'll first be examined
18 by Mr. Khan who is counsel for Mr. Haraqija.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful.
21 Your Honour, perhaps we can go into private session for two
23 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
1 MR. KHAN: Thank you, Mr. Monkhouse.
2 Q. Your name, again, is Agim Kasapolli?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And, in 2007, you were the advisor to one of the ministers; is
5 that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And which minister was that?
8 A. In the Ministry of Culture, Youth, and Sport, I was the advisor
9 for sport.
10 Q. What was the name of the incumbent minister?
11 A. Mr. Astrit Haraqija.
12 Q. Now you're a journalist; is that right?
13 A. Yes, I'm a journalist.
14 Q. And you've been a journalist since January the 9th, 2008?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You're well-known in Kosova; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You've been a TV commentator for the last eight Olympic games, is
19 that correct, on Pristina television?
20 A. Yes, on Pristina television. Now it's Kosova television.
21 Q. And you also write articles for the Bota Sot newspaper at the
22 moment; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you get paid per article whenever you submit; is that
1 A. I write for other newspapers, too, not only for Bota Sot, but yes
2 is my answer.
3 Q. Do you remember the opening of a theatre in Peja in 2007?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you attend that function?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you tell Their Honours the date of that function.
8 A. 2nd July 2007
9 Q. How did you get to that function?
10 A. Together with the minister and a driver, we were in a jeep and
11 headed directly to Peja.
12 Q. And the name of the driver that you travelled with?
13 A. I don't remember the name, but he was a driver from another
15 Q. Did Bajrush Morina go to that event?
16 A. He did participate, he went to the event, but he was not in the
17 jeep with me.
18 Q. How did he get there, do you know?
19 A. Bajrush was in another vehicle together with Veli Bytyqi, while
20 myself and the minister and a driver were in a jeep, in a different
22 Q. And if you can just address your answers to Their Honours, I'd
23 appreciate it.
24 Now, sir, before the theatre, did you go straight into the
25 theatre or did you have an interlude before you entered those premises?
1 A. Before we went to the theatre, we were in the Metohija Hotel and
2 had a drink there; before we went to the theatre, that is.
3 Q. Did you stand or did you sit?
4 A. Some were standing and some others were sitting. A considerable
5 number of people were there, that's why some were standing and some were
7 Q. What about you, were you standing or were you seated?
8 A. I was seated next to the minister.
9 Q. And who was on the other side of the minister, if anybody?
10 A. On the other side of the minister was his wife.
11 Q. Can you describe very briefly the atmosphere whilst you had that
13 A. Some people were standing, as I already said, while the minister
14 was in the middle. I don't remember exactly whether his wife was on his
15 left or right, but I was seated next to him. We discussed the opening of
16 the theatre, of the piece that was supposed to be played in the theatre
17 that night.
18 Q. And then you went into the theatre, is that correct, after the
20 A. No. We waited, standing in front of the theatre. There were
21 many guests coming, and there, too, we discussed the play that was
22 supposed to start any minute then.
23 Q. During that period of time, as you were going into the theatre,
24 were you with the minister or away from the minister, Haraqija?
25 A. I was with the minister.
1 Q. And after the theatre opening, did you go home or did you go
2 somewhere else?
3 A. When the play finished, we went to a dinner organized by the host
4 in Peja, by the director of the theatre. He organized a solemn dinner
5 attended by a large number of people, even larger than that of those
6 standing in front of the theatre.
7 Q. Where were you sitting at the dinner in relation to Mr. Haraqija?
8 A. Again, I was seated next to the minister. He was in the middle
9 and on his other side was his wife. So we were seated in a row, meaning
10 I was the first, minister was in the middle, and on the other side was
11 his wife.
12 Q. And, again, during this dinner afterwards, could you very briefly
13 in a couple of sentences describe the atmosphere of the dinner?
14 A. Yes. It was a very pleasant, cozy atmosphere. The play at that
15 night was quite interesting. We commented on the actors. The minister
16 was quite satisfied with the theatre opening and the play itself. I
17 wasn't. Many other guests, including the director, engaged in the
18 conversation; and, overall, they had a positive impression of the play
19 played at the opening.
20 Q. During the whole time on that day, before you entered the
21 theatre, when you were in the theatre, and at the dinner afterwards, did
22 you at any time hear anybody discuss the Haradinaj case and the Yugoslav
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you ever hear anybody, and in particular the minister,
1 Haraqija, discuss the protected witness that we've spoken about?
2 A. Absolutely not.
3 Q. Did you ever hear Minister Haraqija or anybody else speak about
4 sending Mr. Morina to a third country?
5 A. I didn't even see Morina there by.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, again briefly, because Their Honours need to
7 have as much information as possible in a very tight time constraints,
8 could you tell Their Honours very briefly what kind of man would you say
9 Mr. Haraqija is? And let me say, firstly, professionally what kind of
10 man would you say he is?
11 A. I was born in 1945, which means I am twice the age of
12 Mr. Haraqija, Minister Haraqija. I was impressed by his decisiveness,
13 commitment in work, and his high professionalism demonstrated during his
14 work in the ministry. There were times when I disagreed with some issues
15 surrounding sports; however, our cooperation was great. Of the age that
16 he is, I think that there is a perspective for him because during the
17 time we worked together, he demonstrated exceptional professionalism.
18 Q. The Prosecution may ask you more questions about that. I have to
19 move on, I only have a few minutes. But, personally, how would you
20 describe what kind of man Astrit Haraqija is? And, perhaps, if you can
21 give one or two examples, that would be of assistance to Their Honours in
22 assessing the kind of man he is.
23 A. As far as Haraqija as a person is concerned, I can say that
24 during my time at work with Mr. Haraqija, he is a humane person.
25 Concretely, when a policeman had his father sick and in danger but had no
1 means to support the health care of his father, I was pleasantly
2 surprised because the economic situation, as you know, in Kosova is very
3 poor, Astrit Haraqija contributed with half of his personal salary to the
4 curing of this person.
5 Second example that really touched me was when Mr. Haraqija
6 showed a respect towards the ministry -- minister who was suffering from
7 cancer. He found the adequate ways to substitute for her work, supported
8 her materially and morally for her to overcome this illness. Finally,
9 this young man, when this female minister died, he was on an official
10 trip, and he found the time to speak on the phone with me and to instruct
11 me on how to organize her funeral. We did this in accordance with the
12 means in our disposal.
13 The third example, and I will mention only these three because
14 there are many examples of this kind, is when a well-known actor in
15 Kosova, Hadi Shehu - maybe the best actor in Kosova, who dedicated his
16 entire life to arts - was ill, since the ministry has quite small funds
17 and cannot help people, due to the authority of Mr. Haraqija, we managed
18 to raise funds to secure a kidney transplant for this person in Moscow
19 He lives and he is well due to the humanity and good deeds of
20 Mr. Haraqija.
21 As I said, I can single out many other examples, but these are
22 the three concrete ones that I can say right now.
23 Q. I'm grateful, sir, and you've been admirably short. If you can
24 stay there, there will some questions for you.
25 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, out of time, I'm not putting the -- I've
1 got blank photographs of the same nature that I was shown previously that
2 I was going to put to the witness. Mr. Saxon is welcome to have them
3 should he wish clarification, but I'm not going to spend time on that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Mr. Dieckmann.
6 MR. DIECKMANN: Yes, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You'll now be examined by Mr. Dieckmann, who's
8 counsel for Mr. Morina.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Dieckmann:
10 Q. Good afternoon. My name is Jens Dieckmann. I have just a few
11 numbers of question. You know Mr. Bajrush Morina, don't you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You know him being a political journalist for the Bota Sot?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. As a former editor-in-chief of Bota Sot?
16 A. Could you please repeat it.
17 Q. I'm sorry. Do you know him being the former editor-in-chief of
18 the Bota Sot?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you have been able to read his articles during the last years
21 in the Bota Sot?
22 A. Of course, I have.
23 Q. You agree with me that he is a professional political journalist?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Bajrush Morina has always been a supporter of the former
1 President Rugova and his party; true?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And as far as you know, he was never a member of the party of
4 Ramush Haradinaj; is it true, as far as you know?
5 A. No. He never was a member of his party.
6 Q. And as a journalist, he has frequently written critical articles
7 against Ramush Haradinaj and his party; true?
8 A. Yes. Not only for his party, he wrote critical reviews even for
9 Rugova when he thought that that should be done; in other words, this
10 demonstrates his professionalism.
11 Q. So you know him as a good person, a person with a good character;
12 would you say this?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. DIECKMANN: Thank you, Your Honours. No further questions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Dieckmann.
16 Mr. Saxon, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
17 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Saxon who is
19 counsel for the Prosecution.
20 Please proceed.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Saxon:
22 Q. Mr. Kasapolli, I'd like to ask you to turn your mind to the drink
23 that you and the other persons had at the -- I believe it's the cafe or
24 restaurant Metohija before the -- before the theatre on the 2nd of July,
25 all right? You mentioned that there were a number of people there, and
1 so some people had to stand. So there was a lot of noise in the room,
2 wasn't there, people talking?
3 A. Of course.
4 Q. And the same would actually be true for the dinner that took
5 place after the theatre because there were actually many more people
6 present, weren't there?
7 A. But there was an order there, the minister greeted all those
8 present, and all took the floor in sequence, in turns.
9 Q. All right. And the minister greeted everyone who was present,
11 A. He greeted the director first of the play and then the others.
12 Q. Did the minister greet everyone who was present in that room for
13 that dinner; that's my question?
14 A. Yes, of course.
15 Q. So that means that the minister at least at one point would have
16 greeted Mr. Morina, right?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Now, why do you say no to my last question when previously you
19 said that the minister greeted everyone -- Mr. Kasapolli, you need to let
20 me finish my question, okay?
21 Why do you say no to my last question when previously you said
22 that the minister greeted everyone there in the room?
23 A. May I give you my answer now?
24 Q. Yes, please.
25 A. I said already that the minister greeted the director of the play
1 and the others. In the area where I was seated, next to the minister,
2 and where his wife was sitting, we were not able to see Bajrush Morina.
3 Perhaps he was further away because there were many tables. And it is
4 quite natural if you greet everyone, and if Bajrush happened to be there,
5 he would have greeted him, too.
6 Q. So just so that the record is clear, it's your testimony that
7 Mr. Morina was seated a long distance away from Mr. Haraqija; is that
9 A. No, no. This is not what I said. I never said that.
10 Q. Well --
11 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, in fairness, the witness was very clear
12 at the outset. He said he didn't even know if Bajrush Morina was there.
13 JUDGE ORIE: He said that about the dinner, Mr. Khan, and not
14 about the first meeting. You asked him this question in the context of
15 who was at the --
16 MR. KHAN: Very well.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- dinner.
18 Mr. Saxon, I don't know whether the witness knows, which
19 apparently is included in your question, that Mr. Morina was seated.
20 Perhaps we could first clarify that.
21 Do you remember whether Mr. Morina, when having drinks before
22 going to the theatre, whether Mr. Morina was seated?
23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. SAXON: Your Honour. I'm very, very sorry. We were still
1 talking now, though, about the dinner which was after the theatre.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check, yes. Let me just check if you're
3 right. I apologise, Mr. Saxon. Let me check.
4 MR. SAXON: I asked, this is at line 21 of page 82: "Did the
5 minister greet everyone who was present in that room for that dinner;
6 that's my question?" "Yes, of course." Then the questions --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. Then I missed that portion. I
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. SAXON:
11 Q. Mr. Kasapolli, you said that: "At that dinner, I believe we
12 didn't even see Bajrush." And if that's the case, then, Bajrush was
13 seated nowhere near you, nowhere near the minister; right?
14 A. I will repeat it again. When the opening ended, everybody went
15 to the solemn dinner. The number compared to the people who were at the
16 hotel before the theatre was four-fold higher. So the opening was over,
17 we went together to the dinner, the number of people was huge. I did not
18 say that he was or he wasn't there, but I -- he was not in the area where
19 I was sitting with the minister. I didn't see him that night because it
20 was very crowded.
21 Q. Thank you for that. At that dinner, I know that the minister was
22 sitting to one side of you. Who was sitting on your other side?
23 A. You mean sitting opposite to me or next to me?
24 Q. Next to you on the other side.
25 A. So it was me, the minister, his wife, there were also some actors
1 who participated in the play, and the director was about four chairs
3 Q. Mr. Kasapolli, was there anyone seated on your other side?
4 A. Of course, there was someone else seated on my side because all
5 the tables were full.
6 Q. And you spoke to that person at some point during the dinner,
7 didn't you?
8 A. I spoke with the minister.
9 Q. Are you saying that you completely ignored the person on your
10 other side during that entire dinner? You never spoke to that person?
11 A. We had everyday conversation there. I don't remember everyone I
12 spoke with. We mainly discussed the opening, the theatre, the play. I
13 didn't even congratulate the director on the play because I didn't like
14 it; but as I said earlier, the minister quite liked it and conveyed his
15 congratulations to the director.
16 Q. If I understand your testimony then, there were at least some
17 moments when you did not focus on what the minister was doing or saying;
18 isn't that right?
19 A. As far as I know, when people go to a dinner, they consider this
20 dinner as a relaxation. At all times I was at the disposal of the
21 minister as his counsellor, advisor. So, since the topic was the
22 theatre, the conversation was mainly about the theatre.
23 Q. Sir, did you understand my last question? Should I repeat it
25 A. I understood your question and I responded to it.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kasapolli, whether you responded to the question
2 is still to be seen. Mr. Saxon asked you whether you had conversation
3 with the person sitting at the other side, not the minister but the
4 person sitting at the other side. Did he understand your testimony well
5 that you had conversations with that other person as well?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible that I spoke with
7 someone else.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm not talking about someone else, but about
9 the person sitting next to you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You don't remember whether you had no conversation
12 whatsoever with the person sitting next to you other than the minister
13 who was sitting at the other side?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember who it was?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, it was the
17 director of the play that was played that night. On the opposite side,
18 there was some actors sitting because they gathered around the minister,
19 the actors and the director.
20 JUDGE ORIE: With the director of the play, you don't remember
21 whether you exchanged any word with him that evening at dinner?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We greeted each other because we
23 come from the same town; we both come from Peja. We greeted each other,
24 we exchanged some words, I said to him that I didn't like the play. So
25 this was a conversation I had with him.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question of Mr. Saxon was whether you
2 would agree that if you have a conversation with someone else on, for
3 example, whether you liked the play or not, whether you would agree that
4 you could not at the same time focus on what Mr. Haraqija was doing and
5 saying. Would you agree with Mr. Saxon on that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Saxon.
8 MR. SAXON:
9 Q. Just one more question. Mr. Kasapolli, if you are engaged
10 with -- if you were engaged in conversation with the director of the
11 play, how could you have then heard at that moment what Mr. Haraqija was
12 discussing, if anything?
13 A. Your Honour, I have a request. I did not say that I was -- could
14 speak to one person to the director and at the same time hear the
15 minister. We were sitting at a table. We had normal, civilised conduct
16 with people, talking to people. When you finish talking to one person,
17 you turn to the other person if he asks you something.
18 You can't speak to two people on two sides at the same time, with
19 a minister at one side and someone else at the other side at the same
21 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, with that explanation, I have no further
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: I have one or more questions for you, Mr. Kasapolli.
1 Questioned by the Court:
2 JUDGE ORIE: May I take you back to having drinks before you went
3 to the theatre. You told us that some people were standing, some people
4 were seated. At that time, during drinks, did you see Mr. Morina?
5 A. No, I didn't.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You said you were seated. Were you seated in the
8 A. No. I was with the minister and with his -- a woman from Gjakova
9 because the minister's chauffeur had gone to Gjakova to get someone and
10 take them to Peja. And when the minister's wife arrived, we were
11 sitting, the minister and then me and his wife. Like everywhere else
12 where we sat, we were together. Then those people were interested in the
13 play. The director and everyone else, they came and arrived --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm not asking about the subject of your
15 conversation at that moment. Now, were you seated around a table?
16 A. There were several tables, two or three tables.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you were seated around these tables; is
18 that how I have to understand your answer?
19 A. Yes, that's how it was.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That means tables put together and the people seated
21 around the, as you said, two or three tables?
22 A. Yes. And there were other people who were standing, because all
23 these seats were taken and the rest of the people had to stand.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, this group seated around the two or three
25 tables, was Mr. Morina in that group seated around these two or three
2 A. I didn't see him there.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You say you didn't see him there. Do you consider
4 it possible that he would have been seated within a distance of, let's
5 say, three to four metres from you, or do you consider this not a
7 A. I can't say anything about it. I don't know.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Kasapolli, let me explain to you. If I'm
9 in a room with other people, there's hardly any chance that I'll miss the
10 person sitting next to me or to the other side or at close range, but
11 there might be someone further away. I ask you whether, going back in
12 your memory and the situation, whether you might have missed Mr. Morina
13 as being seated within three or four metres from you.
14 A. I know Mr. Morina as a colleague from the ministry, but on that
15 day there were a lot of people there. And having set out from Pristina
16 at the end of the day, if I'd seen him, I would have remembered him, but
17 I don't remember seeing him there.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's the reason why I'm asking you - where you say
19 who was sitting next to you, who was sitting next to that person, being
20 the wife of the minister - whether you would have missed Mr. Morina
21 within a distance of three or four metres from you, or do you say he
22 wasn't that close to me, he may have been further away, I might have
23 missed him. What's your testimony?
24 A. I just didn't see him there. I can't speculate. I can't say
25 that -- something that I didn't see.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see all the people that were seated around
2 those tables?
3 A. No. I was concentrating on the minister and his wife and a
4 couple of people from Peja who were near me. I wasn't interested in
5 everyone else who was in the room.
6 JUDGE ORIE: How many people approximately were seated around
7 these tables? Was it five, ten, 20?
8 A. I don't remember the number.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
10 Any need to re-examine the witness?
11 MR. KHAN: Yes, I'm afraid there is, just a couple of questions.
12 Re-examination by Mr. Khan:
13 Q. When you say, sir, that Mr. Haraqija greeted all those present,
14 what do you mean by "greeted"? Can you tell exactly -- can you tell the
15 Court exactly what Mr. Haraqija did to greet the people present?
16 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm sorry.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon.
18 MR. SAXON: That question presupposes that Mr. Kasapolli observed
19 every single greeting and --
20 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, if my friend will bear with me --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
22 MR. KHAN: -- if my friend will just trust me and bear with me
23 for a moment, it may become clear; if not, I'll sit down.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The witness can answer the question.
25 MR. KHAN:
1 Q. Can you tell Their Honours what you meant by that. What did he
3 A. You know that Mr. Haraqija was the minister for culture, sports,
4 and youth. When the premier was over, we went to a common dinner, as I
5 said; and when I say "he greeted," I mean that he congratulated those
6 participants on the performance. He congratulated the theatre group on
7 their performance that evening, as every minister would do after a
8 performance at the theatre.
9 Q. I'm sorry. You must think I'm very slow. How did he
10 congratulate them? Actually, what did he do? How did he convey his
12 A. Well, he greeted everyone who was there and then he congratulated
13 them on their success, the fact that in a short period of time the
14 theatre in Peja had managed to put on such a good performance, discussed
15 the financial problems that they had had and discussed the performance
16 and with very modest means -- that it was carried out with modest means
17 from the ministry. He discussed this and just said that we had had a
18 great success that evening.
19 Q. When he discussed this, was it to individuals or to the group as
20 a whole? Was it to everybody present or was it individuals?
21 A. Everyone was present and the minister was standing in their
22 midst, and so it was a collective greeting, if you will.
23 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful. Your Honour, I hope that's clear. I
24 have no further re-examination.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Khan.
1 Has the further examination triggered any need for further
2 questions, Mr. Saxon?
3 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And neither the questions by the Bench, then, I take
6 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: This concludes your evidence, Mr. Kasapolli. I'd
9 like to thank you very much for having come to this court and having
10 answered all the questions by the parties and by the Bench. I wish you a
11 safe trip home again.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You are excused.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Khan.
16 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful, Your Honour. And whilst the witness is
17 being escorted out, I wonder if the Registry have managed to assign
18 numbers for the 92 bis statement of Zana Haraqija and also Zija Rugova,
19 so they can be part of the Defence case.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the 92 bis packet of Haraqija will
22 be Exhibit D8; and the 92 bis packet for Rugova becomes Exhibit
23 Number D9.
24 JUDGE ORIE: D8 and 9, they were admitted already in evidence,
25 but they were not assigned numbers yet.
1 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful to Mr. Monkhouse and Your Honour.
2 Your Honour, that is the case for the Defence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Mr. Saxon ...
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, first of all, Mr. Dieckmann, we
7 understood from Mr. Khan that he's closed his case. Is the same true for
9 MR. DIECKMANN: Yes, Your Honours. We do not intend to present
10 any witness or any additional evidence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 I'm inquiring whether we could continue until 2.00 today, because
13 under those circumstances I would invite you, Mr. Saxon, to make your
14 closing argument in the next half an hour. The Chamber has some
15 difficulties tomorrow to start early due to private reasons which are
16 beyond the control of the Chamber. So, therefore, the Chamber would like
17 to finish, conclude the case, in the latter half of the morning session,
18 that would be to start either at 11.30 or 12.00. We would then have
19 still one hour and a half approximately.
20 If you would give your closing argument today, Mr. Saxon, then
21 tomorrow time would be there for the Defence teams to give their closing
22 argument and there would be still time, little time, for any further
23 questions by the Bench and any further responses to what the other party
24 has presented in his closing argument. Yes. Mr. Saxon, we have time
25 until 2.00. That would mean that you would have half an hour. I'll give
1 same time to Defence tomorrow. Could you present your closing argument.
2 And there's one issue which I have to ask. To what extent does
3 it bother you that you have not yet finally decided on the admission of
4 the statements, the one by Mr. Schook and the other by a 92 ter witness?
5 If that would influence your closing argument, then, of course, we would
6 have to find a solution for that first.
7 The Chamber wanted, as a matter of fact, to further consider this
8 matter this afternoon.
9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, any influence on the Prosecution's
10 closing argument would be quite minor.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Having said this, are you confident to then
12 give your closing argument?
13 MR. SAXON: Yes, I am, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You have half an hour, and it's not only my
15 authority but any later will be a problem is on my little paper which is
16 in front of me.
17 Please present your closing argument.
18 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, the evidence that you have heard in
19 this trial proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Morina, Bajrush
20 Morina, interfered with Witness 2 by trying to convince him to change or
21 withdraw his testimony against Ramush Haradinaj. And I would simply
22 direct your attention, Your Honour, to the following portions of
23 Exhibit P12, which was the recording of the first meeting, page 17,
24 lines 13 to 22 in the English version; page 17, lines 33, to page 18,
25 line 8 in the Albanian version; page 21, lines 22 to 30 in the English
1 version; page 22, lines 14 to 22 in the Albanian version; as well as in
2 the English version page 22, line 24 to page 23, line 11; and in the
3 Albanian version, page 23, line 15, to page 24, line 3.
4 I would also direct the Chamber's attention to what is now
5 Exhibit P19 which was the Prosecution's interview with Mr. Morina on the
6 26th of October, 2007, at page 28, lines 23 to 30, the English version;
7 page 25, lines 6 to 17 in the Albanian version, Mr. Morina explains that
8 Mr. Haraqija instructed Mr. Morina to go see Witness 2 and ask him not to
9 give evidence.
10 I would also briefly direct your attention to the two statements
11 of Witness 2, Exhibits P7 and P8; and the SMS messages from Mr. Morina to
12 Witness 2, which is Exhibit P4; as well as the testimony of Witness
13 Number 1.
14 Moving, Your Honour, to the question of the criminal
15 responsibility of Mr. Haraqija. Your Honours, you have heard evidence in
16 this trial that Mr. Morina supports a wife, several children, elderly
17 parents on approximately -- excuse me, at least at the time of these
18 events, Mr. Morina supported his family on a salary of approximately
19 400 Euros per month. This is at page 166 of the transcript. He and his
20 family rent an apartment in Pristina. Due to these circumstances,
21 Mr. Morina acknowledged to Witness 2 that sometimes he was in a bad
22 position. And this is in Exhibit P12 in the English translation page 9,
23 lines 1 to 9; and in the Albanian transcript, page 9, lines 4 to 12.
24 Your Honours, the Defence position is that Mr. Haraqija did not
25 direct Mr. Morina to meet with Witness 2 in order to convince Witness 2
1 to change or withdraw his testimony, nor that Mr. Haraqija had anything
2 to do with the events in this case.
3 Your Honours, if you are going to accept that proposition, then,
4 respectfully, you must also accept, at a minimum, the following points:
5 That Bajrush Morina, a man of such humble means, independently would take
6 it upon himself to, first, participate in what his immediate supervisor,
7 Angjelina Krasniqi, agreed was an "abuse of office" to use the public
8 funds of the Ministry of Culture allegedly for personal reasons, to
9 travel to the third country to meet with a protected witness in a
10 notorious trial, to discuss a newspaper article written five years
11 before. And that reference to abuse of office can be found in Exhibit
12 P11, Prosecution interview with Ms. Krasniqi on the 7th of November,
13 2007, page 5, lines 20 to 31 in the English; page 7, lines 12 to 25 in
14 the Albanian.
15 Second, you would also have to expect that Mr. Morina
16 independently took it upon himself to travel to the third country, even
17 going so far as to ensure that a hotel room was reserved for Minister
18 Haraqija; and then meet with Witness 2 on two occasions and explain
19 falsely, according to the Haraqija Defence, and in great detail to
20 Witness 2, how he had come to see Witness 2, pursuant to the instructions
21 of Mr. Haraqija. Then you would have to accept that Mr. Morina took it
22 upon himself to discuss with Witness 2 the possibility that Witness 2
23 would change or withdraw his testimony before this Tribunal in order to
24 protect Ramush Haradinaj.
25 Your Honours, these propositions are simply not reasonable or
2 I'd like to turn for a few moments to the question of
3 Mr. Haraqija's motive. You've heard some evidence about the fact that
4 Mr. Haraqija was the deputy chairman of the committee to defend Ramush
5 Haradinaj. If you take a look, Your Honours, at Exhibit P20, which is an
6 OTP interview with Mr. Haraqija on the 27th of October, 2007, page 12,
7 line 2, to page 13, line 8, in the English; page 12, line 4, to page 13,
8 line 6 in the Albanian, you see that when an investigator asked
9 Mr. Haraqija why he participated in the committee for defence -- for the
10 defence of Ramush Haradinaj, in addition to issues of political parties
11 and balance, Mr. Haraqija explained, "I took part because Rugova
12 authorised me and it's not good to equate the executioner with the
14 By that last phrase, subsequently, Mr. Haraqija explained in the
15 same passage that this Tribunal was equating Slobodan Milosevic and his
16 state apparatus "according to Mr. Haraqija a butcher among the lambs"
17 with the Kosovar Albanians who fought against Serb forces.
18 Mr. Haraqija did not mention this in his testimony today.
19 Page 20 of the same interview, Your Honour, page 14 in the
20 English version and page 14 in the Albanian version, Mr. Haraqija said
21 this: "I don't think of Ramush Haradinaj as an enemy. I think that he
22 fought a just war, and regardless of political convictions, I think he is
23 worthy of support as commander of the KLA as he was."
24 So the evidence from Mr. Haraqija's own words demonstrates that
25 he had a motive to convince -- to instruct Mr. Morina to convince or to
1 discuss with Witness 2 the changing of his testimony against Ramush
3 In addition, Your Honour, there is evidence that corroborates
4 Mr. Morina's statements that Mr. Haraqija directed Mr. Morina to meet
5 with Witness 2. If you take a look at Exhibit P19, the Prosecution's
6 interview with Mr. Morina from the 26th of October, 2007, page 24, line
7 29, to page 25, line 13 in the English; page 21, line 36, to page 22,
8 line 5 in the Albanian, Mr. Morina admits that he lied when he told
9 Witness 2 that he had spoken with Astrit Haraqija after their first
10 meeting. According to Mr. Morina: "In other words, I really didn't lie
11 all that much ..."
12 Mr. Morina explained that actually he did not speak with
13 Mr. Haraqija after the first meeting, but that he spoke with the
14 minister's spokesperson, Mr. Veli Bytyqi. Your Honours, that is not the
15 behaviour of a man who is trying to falsely implicate another man in a
16 crime. If Mr. Morina was trying falsely to place the blame for the
17 interference with Witness 2 to Mr. Haraqija, he would have had no
18 rational reason at that moment to distance Mr. Haraqija from this
19 particular point of events.
20 In addition, Your Honour, I would refer you to 65 ter 1A,
21 Exhibit P12, in the English version page 24, lines 1 to 9; in the
22 Albanian version, page 24, lines 25 to 32, where Mr. Morina explains that
23 he was told by Mr. Haraqija to go meet with Witness 2 or "... otherwise
24 it won't be good for you."
25 Then Exhibit P13, recording of the second meeting from the 11th
1 of July, on page 38 of the English version, page 37 of the Albanian
2 version, Witness 2 tells Mr. Morina that he would have liked to speak
3 with Mr. Haraqija. Mr. Morina explains to Witness 2 that he had told
4 Mr. Haraqija: "I am obliged, I work for you, and I am Albanian and I
5 cannot say no," and that Mr. Morina would arrange and could arrange a
6 meeting between Witness 2 and Mr. Haraqija.
7 I direct your attention to Exhibit P19, the OTP's interview with
8 Mr. Morina from the 26th of October, 2007, page 29 in the English
9 version; page 25 in the Albanian version, where Mr. Morina explains: "I
10 was not in a position to refuse instructions of the minister, and that's
11 why Witness 2 reserved two hotel rooms because until the last minute, the
12 plan was for the minister to go to the third country."
13 And at page 21, line 31, to page 22, line 3, of the English
14 version of the same exhibit; page 19 in the Albanian version, Mr. Morina
15 explained that Mr. Haraqija told Mr. Morina that Witness 2 was one of
16 three persons who could save Ramush Haradinaj.
17 I direct your attention to Exhibit P22, the very first page,
18 which contains the request for travel authorisation that includes both
19 names; the first page in the English version.
20 I would also direct your attention to Exhibit P18, which was an
21 intercepted conversation between -- an intercepted telephone conversation
22 purportedly between Ms. Krasniqi and Mr. Morina. And at page 4 of the
23 English version, you will see that Ms. Krasniqi says to Mr. Morina:
24 "It's unacceptable to put all the guilt on you and not on the minister."
25 And you also hear Ms. Krasniqi referring to "the big one" who
1 sent him. And in the Prosecution's submission, Your Honour, there would
2 have been no one bigger or with more authority in the Ministry of Culture
3 than Minister Haraqija.
4 And that last exhibit dovetails, Your Honours, with Exhibit P10,
5 the Prosecution's interview with Ms. Krasniqi on the 27th of May, 2008,
6 page 9, line 17, to page 10, line 15 in the English version; pages 12 to
7 13 in the Albanian version, where in discussing that intercept,
8 Exhibit P18, Ms. Krasniqi acknowledged that in this intercept, she was
9 expressing sympathy to Mr. Morina because after Minister Haraqija had
10 sent Mr. Morina to the third country, all of the responsibility for these
11 events was being placed on Mr. Morina.
12 And in the same portion of that interview with Ms. Krasniqi, she
13 also acknowledges that in this telephone conversation with Mr. Morina,
14 she is expressing frustration and annoyance that Minister Haraqija was
15 not taking responsibility for actions that he instigated and was not
16 placing the blame -- and was placing the blame solely on an employee.
17 Today Mr. Haraqija acknowledged, Your Honours, that he could
18 direct ministry employees to travel to certain events abroad. So,
19 clearly, Mr. Haraqija had the executive power to approve such travel, and
20 he executed that power.
21 If you take a look at Exhibit Number 4, the SMS text messages for
22 Mr. Morina to Witness 2, where they refer -- the last five or six
23 messages refer to Mr. Morina and Mr. Haraqija and a need to reserve a
24 hotel room for the minister. I would submit, Your Honour, that there
25 would have been no need for Mr. Morina to have written such a message had
1 there not have been an intention for the minister to go as well.
2 In addition, Mr. Haraqija's agenda, his work agenda, was
3 completely free for the 11th of July, 2007, Exhibit 32, the day he would
4 have met with Witness 2.
5 Your Honours, the totality of Mr. Haraqija's actions in this
6 matter amounted to contempt of the Tribunal as well as incitement to
7 contempt, and I say that because Mr. Haraqija took material concrete
8 steps to ensure that the interference occurred.
9 First, Mr. Haraqija provided ideas to Mr. Morina on ways to
10 convince Witness 2 to meet with Mr. Haraqija and Mr. Morina, for example,
11 by telling Mr. Morina to invoke the name of the late President Rugova in
12 his telephone communications with the witness.
13 Secondly -- I'm going to move on, Your Honour, at this time.
14 Your Honour, the indictment alleges that this interference
15 occurred between July and August of 2007. The written statements of
16 Witness 2, which I believe are now Exhibits P7 and P8, demonstrate that
17 the memories of the events of July 2007 remained with the witness through
18 August and September of 2007. Indeed, Witness 2's testimony before this
19 Chamber indicates that those memories remain with him until the present
20 day. Therefore, the Prosecution has proven beyond a reasonable doubt
21 that, at a minimum, this interference occurred during July and August
22 2007, as charged in the indictment.
23 If I may backtrack for one moment, Your Honour. It's the
24 Prosecution's understanding that the Defence of Mr. Morina is suggesting
25 that Mr. Morina travelled to the third country to meet with the -- to
1 meet with Witness 2 in order to discuss an article from Bota Sot. If
2 that was the case, Your Honour, then there was no need for Mr. Morina to
3 invoke the name of the late-President Rugova who, as Ms. Krasniqi told us
4 yesterday, continues to be revered by Kosovar Albanians, to convince
5 Witness 2 of the need to meet. Witness 2 mentioned in his statement and
6 on Monday that he was and still is a strong supporter of President
7 Rugova. Mr. Morina could have said simply, It's about an article that I
8 wrote, or it's about an article that I wrote about you.
9 If the purpose of the meeting was simply to discuss an article in
10 Bota Sot, then Mr. Morina had no need to invoke the name and position of
11 the Minister of Culture, Mr. Haraqija, in his telephone conversations
12 leading up to the meetings in July. And while the 2002 article was
13 mentioned in passing during the discussions in the third country between
14 Mr. Morina and Witness 2, it was not the focus of the meetings. The
15 focus of the meetings was the question of whether Witness 2 would change
16 or withdraw his testimony at this Tribunal.
17 And that reference to Bota Sot, to the article, for example, Your
18 Honour, would be in 65 ter -- excuse me, Exhibit P12, the recording of
19 the first meeting, page 16 in the English transcript, page 17 in the
20 Albanian transcript.
21 Another material step that Mr. Haraqija took to ensure that the
22 interference occurred is that we know from Mr. Morina that he -- that
23 Mr. Haraqija approved his travel to the third country. We also can see
24 that, Your Honours -- I'm going to move on.
25 In the moments that I have left, Your Honours, I would like to
1 speak briefly about sentencing. Your Honours, the difficulty faced by
2 the Prosecution in presenting witness testimony in the trial of
3 Mr. Haradinaj are notorious. They were also documented in the
4 Trial Chamber's judgement in that case. And, indeed, at paragraph 6 of
5 the Haradinaj judgement, the Trial Chamber indicated that it had gained a
6 strong impression that the trial was being held in an atmosphere where
7 witnesses felt unsafe. Your Honours, in that context, the conduct of
8 Mr. Morina and Mr. Haraqija was particularly egregious.
9 Furthermore, with respect to Mr. Morina, he abused his authority
10 as a government minister when he committed these crimes. For those
11 reasons, Your Honour, the Prosecution asks, upon a conviction of the two
12 accused for the crimes alleged in the indictment, that you sentence
13 Mr. Morina to a term of imprisonment of one year, and you sentence
14 Mr. Haraqija to a term of imprisonment of two years.
15 Your Honour, that concludes my closing argument.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Saxon. Thank you also for staying
17 within the time-limits even more than asked for.
18 The Chamber's considered how to proceed. Tomorrow, we intend to
19 start at 11.30 in the morning. There is, however, a slight chance that
20 not the whole Bench is yet available at that time, in which case the
21 start tomorrow might be delayed until 12.00. It's beyond our control at
22 this moment.
23 Then an opportunity will be given to both Defence counsel to
24 present their closing argument within a similar time-frame, and then
25 there is a little bit of time left for questions by the Bench perhaps on
1 certain matters if they are not clear to us and also to briefly respond
2 to the closing arguments of the other party. We would then conclude
3 certainly not later than a quarter to 2.00.
4 Mr. Registrar, could you tell us in what courtroom we are
6 We'll resume at 11.30 in Courtroom II.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.58 p.m.
8 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day of
9 September, 2008, at 11.30 a.m.