1 Friday, 13 October 2006
2 [Initial Appearance]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- On commencing at 2.02 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everybody.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you -- oh, Madam Registrar, would you please
7 call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour. This is the case
9 number IT-95-14-R77.6, the Prosecutor versus Domagoj Margetic.
10 Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Mr. Margetic, can you hear me in a language you understand? Yes?
12 If you answer my questions, would you please push the button of the
13 microphone so that it's -- so that I can hear you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now it's fine.
16 Then I'd like to have the appearances.
17 Prosecution first.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Ann Sutherland,
19 Salvatore Cannata, and assisted by Sebastiaan van Hooydonk for the
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.
22 For the Defence.
23 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].
24 JUDGE ORIE: I think I -- I think that I know that you introduced
25 yourself, Ms. Tomasegovic, but there seems to be a problem with the
1 translation and also with the LiveNote because I do not see any ...
2 Yes, I should have more carefully looked around when I said good
3 afternoon to everybody, because I then should have noticed that the court
4 reporter had not yet arrived.
5 For the completeness of the record, I'd like to then restart,
6 although I do not expect any different answers.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please again call the case so that we
8 have everything on the record.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Certainly, Your Honour.
10 Case number IT-95-14-R77.6, the Prosecutor versus Domagoj
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetic, then again my question to you whether
13 you are -- whether you can hear me in a language you understand in.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Margetic.
16 Then appearances. Ms. Sutherland, is the team still the same?
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. Ann Sutherland, Salvatore
18 Cannata, assisted by case manager Sebastiaan van Hooydonk.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Ms. Sutherland.
20 And then I take it Mrs. Tomasegovic, could you please --
21 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 My name is Dijana Tomasegovic Tomic, attorney-at-law from Zagreb.
23 I have been appointed by the Registrar to appear on behalf of Mr. Domagoj
24 Margetic today. I have with me my legal assistant, Iva Karin Vucelic,
25 attorney-at-law from Zagreb.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. I received a copy of the decision in
2 which you were appointed today, Ms. Tomasegovic.
3 The proceeding today, Mr. Margetic, you might be already a bit
4 familiar with the proceedings before this Tribunal is to verify that you
5 have received the indictment, that you understand it, and to hear a plea
6 on your behalf if you're willing to enter a plea today. If you'd like to
7 enter a plea at a later stage, you have a certain period of time to do
9 So let's start with it. First of all, I just have established
10 that you are assisted by counsel. Have you had an opportunity to briefly
11 speak to Ms. Tomasegovic?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, indeed, just when
13 I arrived.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And have you had an opportunity to discuss the
15 indictment that has been brought against you?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I take it from your answer that you have received a
18 copy of the indictment.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Indeed I have.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetic, did you have any difficulties in
21 understanding what you're indicted for?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Tomasegovic, did you observe or do you have any
24 doubt as to the correctness of the last answer of Mr. Margetic or did you
25 also come to the conclusion that he understands the indictment?
1 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Margetic understands
2 the indictment.
3 One thing that I forgot to say when introducing myself is that Mr.
4 Margetic is in bad health right which is why he finds it difficult to rise
5 to address the Court. Therefore, if Your Honour could please allow him to
6 remain seated for the duration of today's session.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I was already informed about it, and since -- well,
8 you may have noticed that I didn't invite him to stand, so therefore
9 it's -- this request is granted.
10 Mr. Margetic, would you like the Court to read out the indictment
11 aloud, or would you agree to only reading the count itself without going
12 through the whole of the indictment? Mr. Margetic?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is no need for
14 the indictment to be read in its entirety.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I'll briefly say what you're charged with
16 Mr. Margetic. It is an indictment with one count only, and you are -- and
17 the indictment is very much focusing on what happened this summer,
18 especially in July, and which, as the indictment finally concludes is that
19 by the acts described in the indictment, Mr. Margetic, you're charged with
20 having committed contempt of the Tribunal under the Tribunal's inherent
21 power and Rule 77(A), Rule 77(A)(ii), and Rule 77(A)(iv) of the Rules of
22 Procedure and Evidence. These are the charges brought against you.
23 Mr. Margetic, you have -- you'll be invited to enter a plea, and
24 you're expected to enter a plea within 30 days, although if you'd like to
25 enter a plea today, and I take it that you have discussed this with
1 counsel, you'll have an opportunity to do so.
2 Have you made up your mind as to when you'll enter a plea?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm prepared to enter my plea
5 JUDGE ORIE: You are prepared to enter a plea today. Then I'll
6 literally read out the one count of the indictment which we find in
7 paragraph 15 of the indictment, where it reads: "By these acts, Margetic
8 committed contempt of the Tribunal under the Tribunal's inherent power and
9 Rule 77(A), Rule 77(A)(ii) and Rule 77(A)(iv) of the Rules."
10 Mr. Margetic, how do you plead on this count?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not guilty, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please put on the record
13 the non-guilty plea of Mr. Margetic on the one and only count of this
15 Mr. Margetic, because you have pleaded not guilty a time will be
16 set for trial. We'll not do that right away, although the registrar is
17 instructed to do that as soon as practical.
18 The Chamber has considered to have the trial to take place
19 mid-November of this year, but I'd like to hear from the parties whether
20 there's any problem with that.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, no problem from the Prosecution.
22 JUDGE ORIE: No problem from the Prosecution.
23 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Likewise, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, we do not know yet,
25 Mrs. Tomasegovic, is the expectation that you'll later on continue to
1 represent Mr. Margetic, or is he choosing to represent himself, or will he
2 bring another counsel?
3 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Margetic will be
4 employing another counsel. I am only here to appear today on his behalf,
5 but he's preparing his defence, and documents are being preparing to be
6 submitted to the Court.
7 Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Margetic, yes, I would like to ask you, I
9 know that a name of a lawyer has -- has been mentioned before. Could you
10 please clarify whether you'll be represented and then by whom, and also
11 whether you apply for free legal aid and whether the lawyer you have in
12 mind qualifies to be -- to be assigned under the free legal aid scheme or
13 whether you hired a lawyer yourself.
14 Could you please clarify all these matters.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have already made an agreement
16 with Mr. Veljko Miljevic, an attorney-at-law from Zagreb. I believe he
17 was involved in the Markica Rebic case. Mr. Miljevic has been gathering
18 documents that will in due course be submitted to the registrar so that he
19 can then be officially appointed as my counsel before this Tribunal.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we are thinking about trials to take place
21 mid-November, that would need at least some quick action. It would only
22 be six weeks to go from now.
23 The Chamber would like to hear from the registry as soon as
24 possible as to whether all the arrangements for assignment of counsel are
25 made in such a way that it would still enable a trial to be held in
2 Then a few other matters I'd like to discuss at this moment. A
3 motion has been filed by the Prosecution for non-disclosure of -- it says
4 Prosecution motion seeking directions and order regarding disclosure
6 Ms. Sutherland, one of the vital issues there is that you would
7 like to have a non-disclosure order, especially in this case where we're
8 talking about sensitive material. Would you like to add anything to that?
9 If not, I'd like to give an opportunity to Mr. Margetic and to the Defence
10 to see whether we can receive an oral response today.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour, I don't seek to add anything to
12 the written motion.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Tomasegovic, are you aware of this motion?
14 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] No, unfortunately I'm not,
15 Your Honour. We have not received it. It was not until minutes before
16 the start of today's hearing that we received the decision on our
17 appointment. The only attachment was the Chamber ruling to allow
18 photographers in the courtroom, but we have not received the other motion.
19 Therefore, it is very difficult for me now to address the issue.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's -- in the motion, the Prosecution
21 primarily seeks an order that the Defence, it says the accused and
22 Defence, but I always understood the Defence to include the accused, so
23 therefore -- but perhaps some emphasis on the accused, not to disclose the
24 contents or the material provided to it by the Prosecution, provided
25 pursuant to the disclosure obligations. There are, if the Chamber would
1 not be inclined to order this, there are a few alternatives mentioned,
2 alternative ways of disclosure so as to protect -- to protect the
3 confidential material as good as possible.
4 Ms. Tomasegovic, do you read English? Yes?
5 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
6 have been following the transcript in English.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. This is the first time that we meet, so
8 and since you have spoken until now B/C/S, I think it would be proper for
9 me to -- to see whether there is any possibility at all, for example, to
10 have a short break that you familiarise yourself with the -- with the
12 I guess that the matter is not so complex that you could not read
13 and understand it within, well, let's say, some seven or eight minutes.
14 It's a couple of pages. It's -- and then perhaps have an opportunity to
15 discuss it for a couple of minutes and then to see whether you can you can
16 respond to it yes or no. If not, of course then we would wait until we
17 have received a written response from the Defence, but if we could make
18 further progress today that would be appreciated.
19 Let me just see whether there's any --
20 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Seven or eight minutes is
21 all it will take us, and of course I will need to confer with Mr. Margetic
22 in relation to this, but I believe seven or eight minutes should be
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you speak with him, perhaps you could bring
25 to his attention also another matter. Until now, Mr. Margetic has chosen
1 to address this Chamber by sending letters to me. That's not the
2 appropriate way of submitting whatever you want to submit. It has to be
3 done by submissions addressed to the registrar, and then of course if
4 they're addressed to the Chamber I'll receive them.
5 Could you please, although it's not an urgent matter, if you speak
6 with him, draw his attention to that as well.
7 One second.
8 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think that we have any other homework for you
10 at this moment.
11 We'll adjourn and we will resume at 2.30.
12 --- Recess taken at 2.22 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 2.29 p.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Tomasegovic, could you --
15 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 During this short break, Mr. Margetic informed me that he had
17 already received this OTP motion or, rather, he had received an e-mail.
18 He has had occasion to confer with his future counsel, and he does not
19 oppose this particular motion by the OTP.
20 In addition to this, he wanted to apologise for the communication
21 problems that you mentioned before the break. It was a misunderstanding,
22 and he promises that nothing like this will happen again.
23 Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. And I do then understand that if
25 Mr. Margetic says, "I'm not opposing the motion," that he therefore also
1 does not oppose the first option, the first option being that he'll be
2 ordered that he and Defence are ordered not to disclose the material or
3 the contents thereof provided to them by the Prosecution pursuant to its
4 disclosure obligations to any person or entity outside this case except to
5 limited extent necessary for the preparation and presentation of the
6 Defence case.
7 Further, that the Prosecution -- that if the accused and Defence
8 would find it directly and specifically necessary for the preparation and
9 presentation of the case to disclose any material provided by the
10 Prosecution that they shall first obtain permission from the Trial Chamber
11 to do so. Any breach as requested by the Prosecution, any breach of
12 non-disclosure orders made by the Trial Chamber would be dealt with in
13 accordance with Rule 77 of the Rules.
14 No opposition against this primary sought -- this order which is
15 primarily sought by the Prosecution. Have I understood that well?
16 Then the order, as requested, has been given.
17 Mr. Margetic, this means that where -- that you need, even if
18 there would be a necessity for the preparation of your Defence, to
19 disclose material that you first need to obtain the permission of this
20 Trial Chamber and that you should so, therefore, seek the permission if
21 there is a real need, and that apart from such, rather, to this exception
22 that you're not allowed to disclose anything whatsoever which is disclosed
23 to you, none of the material disclosed to you by the Prosecution.
24 Is that clear to you?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I very much understand
1 the Court's order in its entirety, and I intend to abide by it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Margetic, for that.
3 Then preliminary motions. If there's any need to file preliminary
4 motions, then an opportunity will be given during two weeks after the
5 disclosure. A disclosure can take place, I take it, immediately today.
6 That means that the two weeks start today. And just to avoid whatever
7 misunderstanding, I gave the oral order now, but it will follow in written
8 version in due course, but the order stands as from this moment.
9 I take it at least that there are no other problems as far as
10 disclosure are concerned anymore.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour. We are prepared to disclose the
12 supporting material this afternoon although we are reluctant to disclose yet
13 another list, a copy of the witness list unredacted, but agree that it
14 does go to the heart of the charges, so therefore it's part of the
15 supporting material.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and it's now under a non-disclosure order, and I
17 hope that Mr. Margetic now fully understands that contempt through
18 disclosing material to others which is confidential is something that
19 would not remain unnoticed, and that at least the Office of the
20 Prosecution takes action upon such violations of the Rules.
21 So two weeks available for preliminary motions. I -- I think it's
22 not necessary to draw your attention, Mrs. Tomasegovic, to the case law of
23 this Tribunal which tells us that preliminary motions challenging the
24 jurisdiction, that they cannot be received in contempt cases. So the form
25 of the indictment is, I would say, the other preliminary motion that
1 remains. Two weeks available.
2 Another matter which I have considered --
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Excuse me.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Just in relation to that preliminary motion, if
6 the time periods were reduced under Rule 127.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They are, yes.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: The response by the Prosecution could be filed
9 within two days of receipt of the motion from the accused.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for this offer. When I'm talking
11 about reducing time limits under Rule 127, and there will follow a few
12 more, then it usually also has -- usually we wait until the motion is
13 filed and then see whether the Prosecution can even without an order give
14 its response very early.
15 Now, since this offer is there, if there would be a motion on the
16 form of the indictment, the Chamber now then expects the response by the
17 Prosecution within two days after receipt of such a motion.
18 I would move on and like to discuss the scheduling of the
19 pre-trial briefs. Of course the time limit depends on the time set for
20 the start of the trial. The Chamber intends to give two weeks to shorten
21 the period which is normally four weeks, but to give an opportunity to the
22 OTP to file its pre-trial brief not later than two weeks before the start
23 of the trial, and then one week later the Defence, because it will be --
24 it's scheduled for one, day the trial, so the case presentation for
25 Prosecution and Defence will take place on the same day.
1 Would that cause any problems?
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Tomasegovic, would that --
4 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, none.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then the pre-trial briefs under Rule 65, I would have
6 to look at it. 65 ter (E) is set for the Prosecution two weeks before the
7 day still to be set, the day of the trial, and for the Defence to file its
8 brief one week before the -- not later than one week before the day on
9 which the trial is set.
10 Any questions about that?
11 Are there any other procedural matters the parties would like to
12 raise at the moment?
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Tomasegovic.
15 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] None, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then the last matter I'd like to raise.
17 Mr. Margetic, we don't have to talk at this moment about detention
18 circumstances, detention conditions, because you're not in detention. You
19 have been in detention for a while in Croatia. You have been meanwhile
21 Is there anything about your health that you would like to bring
22 to my attention at this moment and, if so, would you like to do that in a
23 public hearing, or would you rather like to go into private session?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I might as well do
25 this in public session. It's not a problem at all.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course you don't have to talk about your
2 health, but if you think it would be good for me to be informed about
3 health issues, then you have now an opportunity to -- to address me.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the accused, please.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have difficulty
6 moving. I have been on a hunger strike for 33 days, and as a result I'm
7 suffering serious health consequences. Two, my heart and some other
8 organs. I am virtually immobile, or half mobile. I don't know how to put
9 it. I spend most of my time at home in my bed. I move about with the
10 assistance of my friends for the most of the part and I use a cane to
12 Should anything else occur, I will be certain to be informing the
13 Trial Chamber and follow this up with appropriate medical documents. The
14 way things are now, I believe that I will be able to assist the trial.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As you said, you're suffering some medical
16 problems as a result of your hunger strike. Is -- are all the problems
17 related to the hunger strike and are they the result of it, or is there
18 any genuine other health problem that needs -- that I need to hear about?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Even before I went on the hunger
20 strike I had problems with my heart and blood pressure. As a result of
21 the strike, my health condition deteriorated.
22 On the 5th of September, earlier this year, all of my muscles
23 failed me and I was in critical condition. My heart muscles failed me. I
24 was in detention and in the hospital there, and the relevant authorities
25 in Croatia have the medical documentation concerning my condition at the
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since you're not in detention here, we have no
3 direct and immediate, well, I would say responsibility for your health.
4 People detained in the Detention Unit here of course are dependent on the
5 Tribunal for receiving their medical treatment and it's a responsibility,
6 but since you're not detained, I'm still interested to hear about it, and
7 may I take it that you receive adequate medical care for the problems you
8 are facing at this moment?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I was treated in
10 the hospital for almost 15 days in the past month, and I am continuously
11 undergoing treatment, and I have been undergoing one recently in order to
12 be able to travel to The Hague.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any other matter you would like to
14 raise at this moment, Mr. Margetic?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I wish to thank
16 the ICTY staff for their assistance in helping me enter the premises of
17 the Tribunal as I do have difficulty walking.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's good to hear that the staff of the
19 Tribunal is performing its task in a way appreciated by you, Mr. Margetic.
20 Is there anything you'd like to raise, Mrs. Tomasegovic?
21 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Sutherland, anything the Prosecution would like
23 to raise at this moment?
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then we stand adjourned.
1 --- Whereupon the Initial Appearance adjourned
2 at 2.44 p.m.