1 Tuesday, 14 December 2010
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 --- Upon commencing at 3.00 p.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE HALL
7 call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour. This is case number
9 IT-03-67-R77.3, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 Mr. Seselj, would you confirm that the system is working and that
12 you can hear me in a language that you understand?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can hear you in the Serbian
14 language, but it seems that you have not heard me. As far as I'm
15 concerned, the system is operational.
16 JUDGE HALL
17 immediately on my channel 4, but I have it now. Thank you.
18 Do I confirm you still represent yourself in these proceedings?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I told you at the initial
20 appearance and at the first Status Conference that I will continue
21 representing myself until the end.
22 JUDGE HALL
23 something that I will ask on each occasion so that the record is clear on
24 this point.
25 And may we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.
1 MR. MacFARLANE: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm Bruce MacFarlane,
2 the amicus curiae Prosecutor appointed in these proceedings, and to my
3 right is Lori Ann Wanlin, who is with me this afternoon and throughout
4 these proceedings, and is also a member of a Canadian Bar.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 Well, today is another Status Conference as mandated by the
7 Rules. The last Status Conference in this case was held on the
8 3rd of September of this year, and the purpose of these Status
9 Conferences, according to the Rules, are, and I am repeating what I would
10 have said on the last occasion, to organise exchanges between the parties
11 so that the path to the trial is expedited and to review the status of
12 the accused's case and to allow the accused to raise any issues which are
13 related thereto, and also to raise any matter related to his -- the
14 circumstances of his confinement or his -- his physical condition.
15 Now, there are a number of motions which were pending at the --
16 which were pending the motion for disqualification of Judges Kwon and
17 Parker which had been filed by the accused on the 27th of April, and a
18 specially appointed Chamber dismissed the motions on the
19 19th of November, 2010. Since then the Chamber has issued decisions on
20 all pending motions save one, and could we go into private session for a
21 moment, please.
22 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE HALL
10 Friday last, the Chamber issued a decision on the accused's requests for
11 access to additional documents. Could you confirm that once the material
12 indicated therein is provided to the accused your disclosure obligations
13 pursuant to Rule 66(A) have been met?
14 MR. MacFARLANE: Thank you, Your Honour. I can confirm that they
15 will be met upon the service of the material referred to in that order.
16 JUDGE HALL
17 MR. MacFARLANE: Not on the question of disclosure. Thank you.
18 JUDGE HALL
19 the amicus Prosecutor that -- of the ongoing obligation pursuant to
20 Rule 66 to disclose to the accused any material which in his actual
21 knowledge, that is the Prosecutor's actual knowledge, may suggest
22 innocence or mitigate the guilt of the accused or affect the credibility
23 of the Prosecution's evidence.
24 Mr. MacFarlane, are there any other matters on -- you said you
25 have nothing further on disclosure.
1 Mr. Seselj, do you have anything further -- any further
2 representations to make to the Chamber on this question of disclosure?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm prepared to
4 submit my motion under Rule 65 ter as early as tomorrow. I would like to
5 disclose to the opposing side the statements of ten witnesses I intend to
6 call, and those are the preliminary statements based on which I will
7 conduct the examination-in-chief, and in addition to that, I would also
8 submit photocopies of various interviews given by these witnesses to the
10 The Prosecution has that in principle, but in order to avoid
11 duplication of work, meaning the translation, the translation services of
12 the Tribunal should check whether any of those interviews and statements
13 had already been translated so as not to do it twice. It is my intention
14 to speed up the proceedings, not to slow them down.
15 These ten witnesses would require one hour each in
16 examination-in-chief. I could have disclosed that this morning, because
17 my wife brought it in with her today. However, I received that quite
18 late, just before coming here to the Tribunal, so I didn't have the time
19 to do it today. I propose to do it tomorrow or the day after tomorrow so
20 that all of these statements can be translated so that they can be used
21 in January.
22 So I'm quite ahead of the Prosecutor. The Prosecutor hasn't
23 disclosed anything under Rule 65 ter. I guess he doesn't have anything.
24 He still hasn't disclosed any of the material that according to your
25 order he was supposed to disclose pursuant to your order of
1 10th of December.
2 Anyway, I'm prepared to start the proceedings in the early part
3 of January. I'm done as far as the disclosure is concerned. I have some
4 other matters to raise. Would you like me to do it right away?
5 JUDGE HALL
6 further to say on this matter of disclosure and then we will come back to
7 you on the other matters.
8 Mr. MacFarlane.
9 MR. MacFARLANE: Thank you, Your Honour. In terms of the
10 ten pages that are in issue and were the subject of the order of the
11 Chamber, on conferring with the Registry, it's my understanding that the
12 Registry will be arranging to have that provided to the accused, and that
13 will be done very shortly.
14 I have no further comments on -- on disclosure.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have some other
18 JUDGE HALL
20 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
21 JUDGE HALL
22 were provided to you yesterday and you signed as having received them.
23 Yes, Mr. Seselj, your other matters.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] These 11 pages mean nothing for my
25 defence, and it is clear to anybody who takes a look at them. What is
1 important for my defence, however, has not been disclosed to me.
2 Pursuant to your order of 10th December, it is not clear whether that
3 needs to be disclosed to me. It says in that order that you partially
4 granted my motion, but it doesn't spell out what has been denied, and I
5 think that it pertains to the documents that I enumerated at the last
6 Status Conference and the one before that in which one can see why the
7 Trial Chamber refused to initiate contempt proceedings against me
8 two years ago. The facts are the same as they are now.
9 The reasoning of the Trial Chamber at that time is important for
10 me, for my defence, because the Trial Chamber then had the two Judges
11 that are in the current Trial Chamber as well, and two years ago they did
12 not want to initiate these proceedings and now they decided otherwise.
13 Without that material, my defence would not be complete. I will,
14 nevertheless, proceed with my defence, but I will keep reiterating that I
15 did not receive the material I requested, and that will be the first
16 ground in the appeal against the judgement rendered in this case.
17 JUDGE HALL
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Technical issues that need to be
20 resolved. I think that you, Mr. Hall, as a Pre-Trial Judge, should raise
21 this with the Registry. Since I will be calling ten witnesses in my
22 defence case, I need assistance of my legal assistant, Dejan Mirovic, and
23 Case Manager Nemanja Sarovic. I need the two of them to be here in
24 The Hague
25 allowance, transportation, and so on. In addition to that, I need to see
1 each of the witnesses I intend to call. I need to proof them, and I need
2 to see them in the detention unit. As you know, witnesses are proofed in
3 this Tribunal. Very few witnesses come to testify without being proofed.
4 As a result, I would like to proof my witnesses, and all of this is aimed
5 towards splintering into smithereens this order in lieu of indictment
6 against me.
7 In this main case against me, the Trial Chamber was just about to
8 resolve the issue of funding my defence case. They had a discussion with
9 the Registry. I'm not asking for any fees to be paid out in this
10 particular case. I just ask that the costs be covered for my legal
11 assistants as well as for the witnesses who are about to come to testify
12 in this case. And as is normal in other cases, all witnesses should be
13 entitled to have one person accompany them when they travel to The Hague
14 and I will be ready to start calling these witnesses in early January.
15 There is no need for me to wait for Mr. MacFarlane's pre-trial brief. I
16 also don't need to see his 65 ter list with documents he intends to
17 tender. Those mostly boil down to photocopies of my books and material
18 from previous cases about protective measures for these witnesses.
19 I intend to call witnesses who will confirm in this courtroom
20 that it was them who disclosed their identity. It wasn't me. I
21 disclosed the statements they provided for my defence. I did not
22 disclose the statements they provided earlier to the OTP when the OTP
23 intended to call them as witnesses.
24 These are two very different things. Each of these witnesses
25 came out and publicly stated, "I was asked to come and testify. The OTP
1 wanted to force me to testify for them. They forced me to sign a false
2 statement." Those are the kind of things that they will say. We will
3 discuss these matters here in the courtroom, and this is what my defence
4 is based upon.
5 It is important for me to have a Legal Assistant and Case Manager
6 here so that there are no hindrances in my defence preparations.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 which you are now making, and I fully expect that there is or there are
9 well-established procedures for dealing with the type of assistance which
10 you have indicated that you require.
11 Are there any other matters which you wish to raise?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, that's all.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 The -- Mr. MacFarlane, the last comment that the accused has made
15 is a useful link to the question of -- I would ask of you, whether you
16 intend to call any witnesses in the course of the trial, and the context
17 in which that is being asked is with a view to plotting out the progress
18 of this matter.
19 MR. MacFARLANE: Thank you, Your Honour. At present, I do not
20 anticipate any -- calling any viva voce evidence through witnesses. The
21 case for the Prosecution will consist of a paper trail, and as a result
22 of that, I expect that the case for the Prosecution can be presented with
24 JUDGE HALL
25 accused intends to call, he says, ten witnesses, and the Trial Chamber,
1 having this information, will inform the parties as to a projected trial
3 Are there any other matters which either side wishes to raise at
4 this point?
5 MR. MacFARLANE: I've few matters, if I might, at this stage,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 MR. MacFARLANE: In terms of the readiness for the case to
9 proceed, I simply wish to advise the Chamber that the Prosecution is
10 prepared to proceed and is prepared to proceed very early in the new
11 year. So dates that are set by the Chamber in the early new year will be
12 quite satisfactory from our standpoint.
13 A second point that I'd like to raise arises from a comment made
14 by Your Honour on the 6th of May at the initial appearance -- or the
15 further initial appearance where you indicated at page 20, line 20 to --
16 pardon me, 21 to 24, that the Chamber would be providing direction with
17 respect to when the ten-day period for preliminary motions would start,
18 and that was to take place after a decision had been -- or the decisions
19 had been issued by the Chamber. Those decisions have now been issued, so
20 I thought it might be useful for me to raise this question at this stage
21 so that the Chamber might consider the matter further. That was the
22 6th of May, page 20, line 21 to 24. I have the extract which I can read
23 to the Chamber if you wish.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 MR. MacFARLANE: The relevant portion reads therefore -- this is
1 after having recounted the nature of the proceedings and timing and so
2 on. Your Honour said this:
3 "Therefore, the Trial Chamber will determine the beginning of the
4 ten-day period within which preliminary motions under Rule 72(A) are to
5 be filed when it has decided upon the matters raised in the response of
6 the Prosecutor."
7 That has now been completed.
8 There are a few further issues that I can outline unless the --
9 unless Your Honour wishes to deal with that.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 you proceed with the other matters.
12 MR. MacFARLANE: Thank you.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 MR. MacFARLANE: As I mentioned, on the last Status Conference it
15 will be my intention to file a bar table motion. That will be done in
16 the first week of January. I simply wish to reiterate that as the plan.
17 The purpose of the motion will be to ensure that the proceedings can
18 proceed in a -- in an expeditious way. It's a trial management motion
19 that will be made, hopefully, that will assist everyone in the courtroom.
20 As well, it is my plan to file unless -- unless I receive a
21 direction to the contrary, a pre-trial brief. In my experience in
22 contempt cases, in some instances the Chamber has waived the necessity
23 for filing a pre-trial brief; in other cases it was felt desirable. So
24 I'm in the Chamber's hand on that. If I receive no direction one way or
25 the other, it would be my intention to file a short one.
1 JUDGE HALL
2 this case, Mr. MacFarlane.
3 MR. MacFARLANE: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I will.
4 The next point is --
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to say something about
6 this before Mr. MacFarlane passes on to the next topic.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With regard to the pre-trial brief,
9 the practice of the Tribunal, as well as the Rules -- Rules on Procedure
10 and Evidence, show that a pre-trial brief is mandatory for the
11 Prosecution but optional for the Defence. The Defence cannot be made to
12 file a pre-trial brief, whereas the Prosecution has to.
13 The last contempt trial launched against me was irregular, among
14 other things, because the OTP did not file a pre-trial brief, although
15 they were obliged to.
16 JUDGE HALL
17 to file one, so any issue that you may have had in that regard has been
19 Yes, Mr. MacFarlane.
20 MR. MacFARLANE: A brief matter which may or may not be relevant
21 but I thought I should put it on the record in the event that it does
22 become relevant in the future and that has to do with timing of the trial
23 and timing of any future Status Conferences that might be directed. I
24 have assigned this matter my highest priority so that I will be
25 available, as I said before, at any stage in the early new year, which
1 would encompass the first several months, so that I will be available and
2 ready to go. I just wished the Chamber to note that from the
3 4th of April until the 20th of May, I will be quite a distance from
4 northern Europe
5 trial is set during that period or there's a Status Conference that
6 arises during that period, with the greatest of respect it would be very
7 difficult for me to attend then. I just wished -- it may well be moot.
8 It might not arise at all, but I thought I should note that for the
9 record so that the Chamber is aware of that reality for me.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 on a limb, which 30-plus years of experience around the courts has
12 cautioned me against, I would -- it seems to me unlikely that another
13 120 days would elapse, thereby necessitating a further Status Conference
14 before a trial date is set. To be more definite than that it would be
15 imprudent for me to be, but I -- but we've noted the -- your period of
17 MR. MacFARLANE: Thank you, Your Honour. That was my only
18 purpose in raising it.
19 A further issue which is probably more in the nature of placing
20 matters on the record so that it's clear, and again this might be moot,
21 it might be unnecessary, but on reviewing the proceedings in this case
22 and in the previous contempt case that the accused just referred to, it's
23 become apparent to me that where motions are filed by the accused, they
24 are often perhaps invariably greatly oversized, and that creates a delay
25 in the proceedings. It creates a delay when it comes to translation, and
1 it becomes very difficult for the other party to respond where no
2 previous authority was sought, so to file an oversized motion or filing.
3 So my request at this point is simply to ask the Chamber to remind the
4 accused that where an oversized filing is anticipated, that brief
5 authority from the Chamber is required from the Rules, and I would
6 content myself with that should Your Honour think that that reminder or
7 that direction is appropriate in the circumstances.
8 I do that in the context of the desire to have this matter
9 proceed expeditiously.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 last comment, without repeating everything that he would have said, I
12 would draw what he has said to your attention and that you would conduct
13 yourself accordingly.
14 I don't know if you have any comments on that before I ask
15 Mr. MacFarlane to move on.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Hall, you did not take
17 part in the previous contempt proceedings against me, and therefore
18 you're not steeped in the matter, but Mr. MacFarlane, who did
19 participate, simply doesn't know what he's talking about today. I didn't
20 file any motion then, especially not an extensive one, but this time I
21 will file a motion only under Rule 65 ter, which motion will encompass
22 five pages, but it will have over 100 pages of annexes.
23 You know that under Rule 65 ter there are no limitations. In the
24 proceedings against me, the OTP has filed 6.000 documents with
25 several hundred thousand pages. Even strategy textbooks of the
1 Command Staff Academy
2 and so on.
3 This time I will not file any other motion, and last year I
4 didn't even file a motion under Rule 65 ter, because I thought I didn't
5 need to call witnesses. Now I changed my mind, and the material that I
6 will submit nobody has the power to limit. There are no limitations in
7 the Rules nor in the instructions as to the length of the motions. The
8 motion itself will have five pages, whereas the annexes may have as many
9 as 200 pages. I didn't have time to count -- to count the pages.
10 That is why, for reasons of fairness, I put it out that the
11 Registry should check which portion of that material has already been
12 translated, and much has. When it goes -- when it comes to newspaper
13 clips that show that protected witnesses made public appearances and made
14 public their name, their number, their code-name, and everything else,
15 that material is extremely relevant. And if the Registry goes about its
16 job conscientiously, then much time and resources of the Tribunal will --
17 will be saved. However, if they do translate everything again from
18 scratch, then I can't help it. But obviously Mr. MacFarlane doesn't know
19 what he's talking about.
20 During the last proceedings, I find -- I filed no motions, except
21 for the initial one where I informed the Trial Chamber that I would
22 represent myself and who would be my assistant and my Case Manager. As
23 far as I remember, there weren't any more motions at all. And if
24 Mr. MacFarlane should be aware of any extensive motion of mine from the
25 last but one proceedings, then I dare him to put that to me, but I stay
1 by my words that he obviously doesn't know what's talking about.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 Mr. MacFarlane, is there anything else?
4 MR. MacFARLANE: Might I respond to that issue, Your Honour,
5 or --
6 JUDGE HALL
7 MR. MacFARLANE: I suspect Mr. Seselj has quite a number of
8 matters on his mind and perhaps his memory is failing him on this
9 particular point. On the 19th of March of this year, Mr. Seselj filed an
10 oversized brief before the Appeals Chamber in the previous contempt
11 proceedings, and on the 9th of April, the Appeals Chamber found that:
12 "Seselj's repeated filings of oversized submissions without prior
13 permission constitute unacceptable interference in the timely and
14 efficient functioning of the Tribunal."
15 And in that same decision the Appeals Chamber issued a warning to
16 the then accused of the consequences of oversized filings. The Appeals
17 Chamber said this:
18 "It warns Seselj that should he persist in submitting oversized
19 filings without prior permission, the Appeals Chamber reserves the right
20 to disregard arguments set out in the excess portion of any oversized
21 submission without allowing him the opportunity to refile or otherwise
22 comment on the submission."
23 That's a matter of public record in the decisions from the
24 Appeals Chamber.
25 JUDGE HALL
1 MR. MacFARLANE: There is one further --
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have something more to say.
3 You see, Mr. Hall, either Mr. MacFarlane is a man of very modest
4 intellectual capacity, or he lacks elementary ethics. In the previous
5 contempt proceedings, he said that I filed oversized motions, and then I
6 put the facts to him showing --
7 JUDGE HALL
8 issue any further. I've heard what you have said. I've heard
9 Mr. MacFarlane in reply. I'm moving on. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But mind you, I cannot leave this
11 unanswered. As far as Mr. MacFarlane is concerned, my correspondence
12 with the Appeals Chamber, that is irrelevant for these proceedings. Let
13 us wait for the appeals proceedings and there will be other rules in
14 force. I'm not burdening the first instance proceedings, and I didn't do
15 so the first time around. But Mr. MacFarlane is making up things, and
16 now he's run out of arguments, and now he's saying that I filed oversized
17 briefs to the Appeals Chamber. But in the main proceedings, I had
18 motions that are longer than 1.000 pages.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 as I understood it, reminded you through the Chamber of the Rules in
21 terms of filing oversized briefs, and in his reply to your response of
22 that, he cited the Appeals Chamber's decision in a matter involving
24 We are not here today concerned with whether, as a fact in these
25 contempt proceedings, you have so far or that you intend to file
1 oversized brief. It was merely a reminder as to what the Rules are and
2 the limitations imposed by the Rules. So there is no issue to be
3 resolved and therefore there is no point in you pursuing this matter
5 Yes, Mr. MacFarlane, your next point.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, Mr. Hall, I informed you that
7 it is my intention to file but one motion, which is a 65 ter motion with
8 evidence. The preliminary statements of witnesses and --
9 JUDGE HALL
10 on the record. Yes.
11 MR. MacFARLANE: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 The next and I believe final issue I'd like to raise is a matter
13 of in part substance and in part procedure and does not directly involve
14 the accused but I thought I should raise it, and that involves my
15 colleague to the right, Ms. Lori Ann Wanlin. I will be seeking a limited
16 right of audience from the Chamber at the forthcoming trial, and I would
17 like to lay the foundation for that request.
18 Ms. Wanlin was first appointed to assist me in early 2008 in
19 respect of another matter, and since then she has assisted me on a number
20 of matters and her role has continually increased as these matters have
21 progressed through this Tribunal. Ms. Wanlin was called to the bar in
23 believe is relevant, but there's five factors that I would ask the
24 Chamber to consider in assessing my request. The first is the one I just
25 mentioned, that Ms. Wanlin is now called to the bar and is a member of a
1 Canadian Bar.
2 Secondly, in terms of her ability to deal with matters arising in
3 the Chamber, Ms. Wanlin is fluently bilingual in both of the working
4 languages, and I can only say that I envy that, but she is able to -- she
5 is perfectly fluent in both French and English.
6 Thirdly, I can say that as a result of my observations of
7 Ms. Wanlin over the past three years, her ethical standards are of the
8 highest order and certainly meet the high expectations of the Office of
9 the Prosecutor, although we are not a member of OTP, but her ethical
10 standards are extremely high.
11 Fourthly, Ms. Wanlin has been appointed by the Registrar on five
12 separate occasions, three as assistant to me as amicus curiae Prosecutor,
13 and two separate matters as assistant to me as amicus curiae
14 investigator. Ms. Wanlin participated in all five of those appointments
15 actively and in an intensive way to the point where she is extremely
16 familiar with the practice and procedure on the Rules and the evidence in
17 the Tribunal and has made a point of understanding relevant portions of
18 international law to a level that I think is a model for a current legal
20 Of interest as well, as a result of the decision of the Chamber
21 on the 2nd of December, 2010, one of the issues that may well and
22 probably will arise relates to the notion of publication through
23 electronic means, and in particular, through the internet. Ms. Wanlin
24 worked for the better part of a year at the Canadian Internet Policy and
25 Public Interest Clinic housed at the University of Ottawa
1 good if not rare understanding of that very difficult intersection
2 between the law and the internet so that it's my respectful submission
3 that she will be able to provide assistance to the Chamber, which I can
4 only, once again, envy.
5 There are several previous precedents that I am aware of on my
6 review of the judicial --
7 JUDGE HALL
8 because I have just seen, and I emphasise "seen," not yet read, with
9 interest two articles on the Ontario Bar Association web site about this
10 intersection between the law and the internet, which I have shared with
11 my colleagues back in the Bahamas
12 associate member of the OBA, and I'm glad that some of us understand what
13 it's about, because I confess that it may be an age thing that it's an
14 area which is terra incognito to me.
15 MR. MacFARLANE: Well, I have to say that it's not an area of
16 expertise for me either and perhaps it is an age issue. I understand
17 that the intersection between the internet and the law has recently been
18 argued before the Supreme Court of Canada as well, so it's a fast-moving
19 area, and with Ms. Wanlin's background and expertise, it struck me that
20 she could be of service to the Chamber on that issue.
21 As I mentioned on my review of the jurisprudence, there are
22 several previous precedents that would lay a further foundation for this
23 type of direction or order, and if Your Honour or if the Chamber thinks
24 it appropriate, it might be a wise avenue to arrange for consultation
25 with the Registrar on -- on those other precedents, although Your Honour
1 might conclude that that's not necessary, but that is an avenue that
2 might be available.
3 My proposal at the end of the day is that the Chamber grant
4 Ms. Wanlin a limited right of audience in this particular case, it being
5 confined to contempt of court -- contempt of the Tribunal matters and
6 that she be allowed to actively participate in the presentation of
7 evidence, cross-examination of evidence, and the presentation of
8 argument, all of which would be under my direct supervision and
10 Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE HALL
12 relating to rights of audience before this Tribunal, but we have noted
13 your foundation application in the course of these proceedings, and the
14 appropriate ruling would be delivered in due course. Thank you.
15 Yes, Mr. --
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a reply to that. I
17 absolutely disagree with the request just formulated by Mr. MacFarlane.
18 First of all, only he was appointed as amicus curiae, and only he
19 can appear in that role. There were no two amicus curiae appointed with
20 a right of audience.
21 Mr. MacFarlane could bring in his wife, his son, his daughter,
22 his neighbour, and ask that they also be granted right of audience. How
23 he's going to choose his associates is his own business. The Registry
24 has certain rules about how that can be done and I have nothing against
25 that. I ask that I be appointed assistants as well. But not every clerk
1 from his technical team should be given the right of audience.
2 I know Mr. MacFarlane, and I have experience in working with him,
3 and I'm sure that no proper ethical standards can be applied in his work
4 and that of his associate.
5 I will ask people from my defence to check what personal
6 relationship exists between Mr. MacFarlane and Ms. Wanlin. How come he
7 chose precisely her. If there are going to be two amicus curiae in this
8 courtroom, why should all of them -- both of them be Canadian. Why
9 wouldn't one of them be from Bangladesh
10 listen to Canadians. In the main trial against me the OTP had
11 ten counsel. Some of them left. Some of them were about to depart, and
12 I'm still here.
13 So if this right of audience is granted, if this person is
14 appointed, I will keep reiterating that it is inappropriate and
15 inadmissible. She cannot cross-examine witnesses because she is not
16 amicus curiae.
17 Secondly, the fact that she is an alleged expert for a new field
18 of law that is linked to internet is really a fascinating fact. However,
19 in that case, Mr. MacFarlane should ask the Trial Chamber that she come
20 here as an expert witness so that she can come and testify about this
21 field if that is necessary, and then I should be able to cross-examine
22 her, including examining her past, her family ties, her ties to
23 Mr. MacFarlane, and things like that. It will be -- it would be very
24 interesting to hear that in the courtroom. And to have her appear as a
25 double of Mr. MacFarlane here in the courtroom, no, the conditions for
1 that have not been met.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 you have said, but I need only remind you of my initial response to
4 Mr. MacFarlane's request, which was that I have -- I claim no expertise
5 on the matter of rights of audience before the Tribunal, and that having
6 heard the foundations of his submission, which -- foundation may not have
7 been the precise word he used, but what I understood him to be saying is
8 that what he has said today is the background to a formal application
9 which will be made and a decision will be rendered in due course. So
10 there is no disadvantage to you one way or another.
11 Is there anything else, Mr. MacFarlane?
12 MR. MacFARLANE: Normally I wouldn't find it necessary to make
13 this comment, but some aspects of the accused's comments I found quite
14 offensive vis-a-vis Ms. Wanlin. I simply wish to note for the record
15 that at the beginning, when Ms. Wanlin was first appointed, she was
16 specifically recommended to me by the Associate Dean of the Faculty of
17 Law at the University of Manitoba
18 Ms. Wanlin. I interviewed her, found her to be excellent, and that's
19 simply, quite simply, the background. She was highly recommended to me.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 persons use the opportunity of being in a court to make personal
22 offensive comments of that nature.
23 Yes. Is there anything else?
24 MR. MacFARLANE: No, thank you --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have something with respect to
1 that, Mr. Hall. See here --
2 JUDGE HALL
4 Yes, Mr. MacFarlane.
5 MR. MacFARLANE: Thank you, Your Honour. No, I appreciate the
6 opportunity to make the preliminary comments. I have no further comments
7 at this point. Thank you.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to add this: International
10 criminal law is quite a young field of law. It is not based on extensive
11 jurisprudence. The jurisprudence produced by this Tribunal and by the
12 Rwanda Tribunal is criticised by some of the most eminent lawyers in the
13 world. All serious law schools in the world. The most influential ones
14 have excellent experts for international criminal law who produced a
15 large number of papers questioning the very existence of The Hague
16 Tribunal. And imagine now here when you have an amicus curiae appearing
17 as a prosecutor telling you that he received a recommendation from the
18 Dean of the law school of -- from Manitoba
19 It's been 34 years since I graduated from the school of law.
20 It's been 31 years since I acquired my Ph.D. in law, and I have never,
21 ever heard that the law school of Manitoba
22 of some of their eminent professors, and I didn't hear of anybody from
24 JUDGE HALL
25 further down that road.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- further studies to Manitoba
2 JUDGE HALL
3 any concerns about your health or the conditions of your incarceration
4 which you wish to raise with the Chamber?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.
6 JUDGE HALL
7 this matter of the -- when the -- how the ten-day period would run before
8 we adjourn. It's something which I would prefer to give further thought
9 to, and the Chamber will give the necessary direction having -- having
10 considered the matter that you would have reminded me is still a live
12 MR. MacFARLANE: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 proceedings, the preliminary motions under Rule 72(A) are to be filed
15 within a 10-day period once he has received all the supporting material
16 in accordance with Rule 66.
17 And no party having any other matter to raise, we would adjourn
18 these proceedings, and I thank you.
19 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned
20 at 3.49 p.m.