1 Thursday, 9th September, 1999
2 [Rule 77 Hearing]
3 [Open session]
4 [The appellant entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 10.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The Appeals Chamber is
7 in session again, Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-94-1-A-R77, the
9 Prosecutor versus Dusko Tadic in a matter concerning
10 allegations against prior counsel.
11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Abell? I see
12 Mr. Abell on his legs.
13 MR. ABELL: Good morning, Your Honour. May I
14 give Your Honour a progress report, please, about
15 Witness G?
16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes.
17 MR. ABELL: This morning, I received a
18 telephone call to this effect, that Witness G will now
19 be at the central police station at Banja Luka at this
20 moment, as I understand it. He arrived there between
21 8.00 and 9.00. He arrived there apparently with
22 Mr. Ljubomir Tadic, and he would be ready to go
23 wherever he needs to be taken in order for his evidence
24 to be heard on a satellite link.
25 Now, I received that news at around about
1 half past 8.00, quarter to 9.00 this morning. On
2 arrival at this building, I have done my best to
3 contact the relevant people to see if that can be
4 organised. At the moment, I haven't been able to speak
5 with anyone who has been able to progress the matter --
6 not for want of trying, and that's not being critical
7 of anyone in this building, but clearly, on behalf of
8 the interested party, Your Honours have seen what
9 Witness G says. It is relevant and admissible and,
10 Your Honours may think, important evidence in these
11 proceedings, and I've no doubt that if Your Honours
12 hadn't considered that to be the case, Your Honours
13 wouldn't have admitted it in evidence on my ex parte
14 application on the 31st of August of this year, towards
15 the beginning of last week.
16 So I would ask Your Honours, if I may, to
17 make every effort that can be made in order to receive
18 Witness G's evidence during the course of the day.
19 There frankly is no more that I can do, given that this
20 was a statement not sent to me, but sent to the
21 Registry, without an address on it that I could deal
22 with or trace in any way.
23 I don't think I can do any more, but I make
24 the strongest plea I can that this Court should hear
25 that evidence.
1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Mr. Abell, perhaps
2 we'd better hear from the Registrar as to whether it is
3 practicable to take the evidence of this witness
5 MR. ABELL: I'm grateful.
6 THE REGISTRAR: It is obvious that it is
7 absolutely impossible to organise a videolink
8 conference today, or even tomorrow.
9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: That being the case,
10 would you allow me, as the servant of my colleagues, to
11 be in consultation with them.
12 MR. ABELL: May I just say this before that's
13 done: There is one possibility, perhaps, that the
14 Court can consider, and that is the possibility of
15 interposing Witness G at some stage in the
17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You spoke yesterday,
18 very learnedly and very helpfully, if I may so say,
19 about a practice for the accused to testify at the
20 beginning of the case for the Defence. Would there be
21 any practice which permits of the course which you have
23 MR. ABELL: It is unusual, but it is not
24 unheard of, in my experience, where, for whatever
25 reason, despite the greatest efforts that the Court and
1 the parties make to bring a witness to court, it is not
2 unheard of for a witness to be interposed out of order,
3 provided an accused is given an opportunity, if he
4 wishes to do so, to -- if he wishes to do so, to come
5 back into the witness box to deal with any other issues
6 which are raised.
7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: And that is stated in
8 the practice books?
9 MR. ABELL: I haven't got my English practice
10 book with me. It is unusual; I'm bound to say it is
12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Perhaps the better
13 course is for me to be in consultation with my
15 MR. ABELL: Yes. Can I -- yes, certainly.
16 [Appeals Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Well, Mr. Abell, I've
18 had a brief but helpful consultation with my
19 colleagues, and the unanimous decision of the Court is
20 that we have waited on this witness -- it is, of
21 course, a question not of waiting ad aeternum, because
22 no doubt the witness could give his testimony later
23 next week. But the case is in progress, and we have
24 reached the stage at which the case against Mr. Vujin
25 should be terminating, so that he should have an
1 opportunity, which all accused are entitled to, to
2 reply to that case.
3 That is the stage at which we are, and for
4 those reasons, the Court would decline the request to
5 have this witness called, either now or later on.
6 MR. ABELL: Your Honour, so be it. There is
7 no more I can say. Now --
8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I would like to say to
9 you that the Court appreciates very much the vigour and
10 strength you have put into the application; there's no
11 question about that.
12 MR. ABELL: Well, I'm very grateful for that.
13 May I mention one other topic which has come
14 to my attention overnight. As Your Honour
15 knows, Mr. Livingston sits by my side in this case to
16 provide me with instructions and also to watch over the
17 case from his point of view. It has come to my
18 attention because he told me during the course of
19 yesterday afternoon that he discovered this weekend, at
20 his home in London, that he had a copy -- a copy, I
21 stress -- of the video evidence of Witness B. He
22 had -- it had slipped his mind, as I understand it, but
23 he actually had a copy of it. But in the spirit of, if
24 I may say so, fairness, he mentioned to me that he's
25 got that, and he offers it to the Court, as I
1 understand it, so that the Court, if they wish, can
2 look at it and make what they will of it.
3 He is sorry, if I may say so, and Your
4 Honours can hear from him if need be, that he did not
5 realise until this weekend and did not remember to tell
6 me until yesterday afternoon that he actually still had
8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Let me consult with my
9 colleagues again.
10 [Appeals Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Abell, the Appeals
12 Chamber bears in mind that Mr. Livingston gave evidence
13 in this case and that at the specific request of
14 yourself or, I think, of Mr. Clegg, he was permitted to
15 sit next to you for the particular purpose of feeding
16 information of relevance to you.
17 Again, I observe that the case against
18 Mr. Vujin is about to come to an end, and we would like
19 to make an end of the case now.
20 So for those reasons, the Appeals Chamber
21 would decline the request for this video evidence to be
23 MR. ABELL: So be it. We make it clear, or
24 Mr. Livingston, I think, wants it made clear that it is
25 available for any party who would care to look at it
1 and use it as they may see fit in the rest of the
2 proceedings. Let that be clear.
3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Well, as of now,
4 that is the position.
5 Now, I come to your motion, Mr. Abell,
6 effectively for the addition of certain new charges.
7 I take first the question of Mr. Vujin being
8 in contact with a witness without the permission of the
9 Appeals Chamber after the 10th of February, 1999, when
10 the scheduling order initiating these proceedings was
12 The Appeals Chamber observes that the witness
13 in question, Mr. Preradovic, I think, was not one of
14 the witnesses whose statements were appended to that
16 Incidentally, the order spoke erroneously of
17 ten witnesses. It should have spoken of nine. If you
18 check back, you'll find that there were nine
20 In those circumstances, we do not consider
21 that the restraint imposed by the scheduling order on
22 contacts with witnesses whose statements were attached
23 operates. In view of those circumstances, the Appeals
24 Chamber denies that request.
25 The Appeals Chamber comes now to the
1 allegation of fraud relating to a document tendered by
2 Mr. Vujin.
3 The Appeals Chamber would wish to be cautious
4 in dealing with this matter, if only to avoid the
5 appearance of pre-judgement of any of the issues of
6 fact which may be involved in this case. Consequently,
7 I would speak sparingly and say merely this, that in
8 terms of Rule 77(F), the Appeals Chamber does not
9 consider that it has reason to believe that the
10 circumstances in question disclose a case of contempt
11 by Mr. Vujin, and, accordingly, that request is also
13 I turn now to the third and last item on my
14 list, which relates to the sequence of evidence
15 relating to the Defence case. But before I reach that
16 point, I should say formally that the Appeals Chamber
17 now regards the case against Mr. Vujin as closed. So
18 here I'm speaking about the Defence itself.
19 Now, Mr. Vujin requested that he be allowed
20 to defer his personal testimony until some or all of
21 the Defence witnesses have testified; I'm not sure. I
22 would merely limit myself to saying this, that the
23 Appeals Chamber takes it that it's a matter for
24 Mr. Vujin to decide as to the stage at which he wishes
25 personally to testify. It is a matter for him to say
1 whether he wishes to testify at the beginning or at the
2 end or somewhere in between.
3 The Appeals Chamber also considers it right
4 to say to Mr. Vujin that in case he decides to testify
5 not at the beginning but at some later stage, then the
6 Appeals Chamber, in evaluating his evidence, would have
7 to take into account the fact that he had listened to
8 the testimony given by all the Defence witnesses.
9 So now I call upon Mr. Domazet to take
10 control of the Defence case and to indicate who is his
11 first witness.
12 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I
13 should like to remind you that in the order of the 24th
14 of March this year, you left it up to Mr. Vujin to
15 propose his witnesses, and after hearing them, in point
16 8 it was stated that you would then be calling upon
17 Mr. Vujin to appear as a witness in the proceedings if
18 he should so desire.
19 We had given an order according to which
20 Mr. Vujin would be first, and there is no other reason
21 for this change for going back to the view that we
22 should hear the witnesses first except for the fact
23 that they are witnesses who have come here and who
24 could not be heard if we were to start with the
25 testimony of Mr. Vujin.
1 For that reason, I should like to propose
2 that the first witness of the Defence be Witness DA
3 from Banja Luka. He is a lawyer from Banja Luka.
4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Registrar, can
5 Witness DA be called, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Of course,
7 Your Honour. It is being done.
8 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
9 in our submission of the 19th of July this year, we
10 asked that our witnesses be heard in closed session. I
11 seem to remember hearing that from you this morning as
12 well. So if I'm wrong, if I have made a mistake or
13 that is not so, then do you wish me to explain my
14 request, although it was explained in the submission I
15 made on the 19th of July, the reasons for which we want
16 the witnesses to be heard in closed session?
17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I don't, offhand,
18 recollect having made a reference to proceedings being
19 held in closed session this morning, but that is no
20 reason to deny the request.
21 Is there any objection to the request? No
22 objections, Mr. Domazet.
23 May I ask the Registrar to make the
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] All witnesses
1 can be heard in closed session, if you so wish, Your
3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Domazet, you would
4 wish all your witnesses to be heard in closed session?
5 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour, yes.
6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: There being no
7 objections, it is so ordered.
8 [Closed session]
5 pages 1376 to 1521 redacted - in closed session
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
11 5.20 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,
12 the 10th day of September, 1999, at
13 9 a.m.