Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12

1 Tuesday, 26 April 2005

2 [Motion Hearing]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 3.05 p.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will the Registrar call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon, Your Honours.

8 This is case number IT-04-83-PT, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: May we have the appearances.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning afternoon,

11 Your Honours, counsel and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

12 Prosecution, Daryl Mundis.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Mundis. And for the Defence.

14 MR. BOURGON: Good afternoon, Mr. President, good afternoon, Your

15 Honours. On behalf of the accused, Mr. Rasim Delic, this afternoon,

16 Stephane Bourgon, lawyer from Montreal, Canada, accompanied this

17 afternoon by Ms. Jasenka Residovic, legal assistant. Thank you, Mr.

18 President.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. And I am told we also have

20 the Minister of Justice of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Ms. Kristo Borjana.

21 Thank you for coming.

22 This is a provisional release application pursuant to Rule 65.

23 The Chamber has had the benefit of reading all the submissions. We have

24 read them very carefully. Accordingly, the submissions to be made in

25 court need not be very long. For that reason, each party will have 20

Page 13

1 minutes to make their submissions. And I'll start with counsel for the

2 accused, Mr. Bourgon.

3 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

4 MR. BOURGON: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

5 Mr. President, as the Chamber has highlighted, this is an oral

6 hearing which has to do with a motion for provisional release of the

7 accused, Rasim Delic, pursuant to Rule 65 of the Rules of Procedure and

8 Evidence. Mr. President, I will agree with you that one, my submissions

9 this afternoon need not be very long because most of our arguments are

10 already on the record. However, Mr. President, as you may well

11 understand, this is a very important day for any accused, accused before

12 this Tribunal in terms of having the opportunity to address the Court and

13 to be heard with respect to provisional release.

14 I will begin, quickly, Mr. President, by simply highlighting a

15 couple of general facts of this case which includes that the indictment

16 against Mr. Delic was confirmed on the 16th of February; that Mr. Delic

17 immediately notified the authorities of his willingness to surrender and

18 to be transferred in the custody of the International Tribunal; and that

19 his transfer was immediately organised as early as 28th of February, with

20 and in cooperation with the government of the Federation of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as the Office of the Prosecution. Since

22 being transferred in the custody of the International Tribunal, Mr. Delic

23 has been at the United Nations Detention Unit, where he has been -- he

24 had good conduct and there were no problems whatsoever with respect to

25 his staying at the UNDU. Mr. Delic had his initial appearance on the 3rd

Page 14

1 of March at which time he pleaded not guilty to every charge in the

2 indictment.

3 Mr. President, our case this afternoon is quite straightforward.

4 The two conditions which are found in Rule 65(B) are met and there are,

5 in our view, no other specific and objective reasons which outweigh the

6 need to ensure respect for the right of liberty of the accused. Now, as

7 we know, Mr. President, these conditions are that Mr. Delic, if granted

8 provisional release, will return for his trial, and that he will not pose

9 a danger to any victim.

10 I will focus, Mr. President, on two issues: the guarantees

11 provided by the government of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

12 as well as the personal situation of Rasim Delic.

13 First, with respect to the guarantees which have been provided by

14 the government of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. These

15 guarantees were provided in writing on the 3rd of March, 2005. Those

16 guarantees are provided by the Federation which, in accordance with the

17 Rules, is an entity and is able to provide the required guarantees. The

18 guarantees provided by the Federation include the guarantee to carry out

19 any orders which could be issued by this Trial Chamber or by any other

20 Chamber of the International Tribunal. I highlight the fact this

21 afternoon, Mr. President, I am accompanied by the Minister of Justice of

22 the Federation, Ms. Borjana Kristo. She will be able, Mr. President, at

23 your request, to highlight the cooperation which has been given by the

24 government of the Federation, with -- to the International Tribunal.

25 When we speak of cooperation, Mr. President, we need to think of

Page 15

1 two things. The record of cooperation is general cooperation with the

2 Tribunal, as any state is obligated to cooperate with the Tribunal. In

3 this respect the record of the Federation has been very good. Of course,

4 cooperation is also meaning in relation to other accused who have been

5 provisionally released in the past. A number of accused have indeed been

6 released, and -- for whom the Federation has provided guarantees,

7 guarantees which include that not only will they carry out orders issued

8 by the Tribunal, but should there be any attempt or any indication that

9 an accused put on provisional release wanted to escape or did not respect

10 any of the conditions imposed by this Trial Chamber, the government of

11 the Federation would immediately intervene. I believe the Minister of

12 Justice, Mr. President, will be in a better position than I am to provide

13 and to explain in a more specific manner the guarantees.

14 With respect, Mr. President, to the personal situation of the

15 accused -- I'm sorry, Mr. President, I need to return to one factor

16 concerning the guarantees of the Federation which I forgot to mention.

17 That is an issue which was raised by the Prosecution in its response to

18 our motion for provisional release. There appears to have been a

19 suggestion that because of the personal situation of the accused, namely

20 that he is the highest-level accused to be indicted before the Tribunal,

21 that this would make a difference in the weight to be attributed to the

22 guarantees provided by the Federation. We have replied to this argument,

23 Your Honour, and we have explained that in our view, first, General Delic

24 is no longer the commander of the army of the Federation of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina. For the past five years he has been a civilian and even if

Page 16

1 he was in that capacity, the Minister of Justice of the Federation will

2 be able to highlight that this does not make a difference in terms of

3 their ability to react in case there would be any attempt not to abide by

4 an order of this Chamber.

5 I move on quickly, Mr. President, to the personal situation of

6 Rasim Delic. I underline once again his voluntary surrender; the fact

7 that he has provided an undertaking which Your Honours have on the

8 record; the fact that since the war and since he has left his position as

9 commander of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or the army of the

10 Federation, he has undertaken studies leading to the degree of Ph.D. or

11 Doctor of Philosophy, which he has obtained in December of 2004. General

12 Delic has published a number of books and he is a citizen of Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina who is well-established in his community and, with all

14 evidence that we can find, is a person who is deeply committed to

15 remaining in this community.

16 The family situation of Rasim Delic is another factor that shows

17 that he would not be the type of person to escape or not to respect the

18 provisional -- sorry, to -- not respect the conditions imposed along with

19 his provisional release. He, with his family lives in Visoko, his two

20 sons live in Visoko and all of his close relatives are also living in the

21 territory of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. This is

22 important, Mr. President, because as highlighted in our motion, two of

23 his closest relatives are in a position where they cannot travel to go

24 and see General Delic if he was limited to staying in Visoko which is his

25 home address.

Page 17

1 One last item I wish to highlight concerning specifically Rasim

2 Delic is the issue of cooperation. Rasim Delic, Mr. President, did

3 cooperate with this Tribunal when he held the position of commander of

4 the army, or at least there is absolutely no indication that the army of

5 the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina ever held back on any request

6 from this Tribunal.

7 Rasim Delic has cooperated with this Tribunal when he was

8 required to give a witness statement and to meet with the investigators

9 of the Office of the Prosecution when dealing with the case of the

10 Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic. Before being indicted, it was

11 publicly known in Bosnia and Herzegovina that Rasim Delic was willing to

12 cooperate with the International Tribunal and to place himself at the

13 disposal of the Tribunal, whether as a witness, as an accused, or in any

14 other capacity.

15 For all these reasons, Mr. President, we believe that the

16 conditions that Rule 65 have been met, that there are no reasons not to

17 respect his life [sic] to liberty, and we respectfully ask this Trial

18 Chamber to grant provisional release until the beginning of the trial

19 phase of the proceedings.

20 I end my submissions, Mr. President, by a few words on the terms

21 and conditions which could be imposed by this Trial Chamber should it be

22 of the view that it is appropriate to grant provisional release to Mr.

23 Delic. These conditions have been proposed already in our motion and I

24 will not go over these conditions again. However, I highlight the fact

25 that there is one condition which is required -- which is requested, Mr.

Page 18












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 19

1 President, and that is that the accused be entitled to move freely on the

2 territory of the Federation. This is the type of conditions which has

3 been granted to other accused in the past including the accused Sefer

4 Halilovic, who was then authorised to remain on the territory of the

5 Federation. This issue has been discussed with the government of the

6 Federation and in their view, and the Minister of Justice will be able to

7 further highlight this issue, this does not represent a problem, and the

8 guarantees they offer of course stand for the complete territory of the

9 Federation.

10 With respect to all other conditions, Mr. President, the accused

11 Rasim Delic is, respectfully, very flexible. The reason why he would

12 like to be able to travel on the territory of the Federation is twofold:

13 first, to visit his close relatives, namely his brothers who are both not

14 in a position to visit him if he stays in his place of residence in

15 Visoko; and the second is that Rasim Delic is expected to publish his

16 fourth book in a relatively short period of time and it is expected that

17 on this occasion, there will be a promotion tour for his book, like there

18 was for the three previous books. In such a situation, Mr. President,

19 the accused would travel to the main cities of the federation where he

20 would participate in official promotion activities for his book.

21 This sums up my submissions on behalf of the accused Rasim Delic,

22 and it will be my pleasure, Mr. President, Your Honours, to answer any

23 questions you may have with respect to the submissions, whether in

24 writing or my oral submissions this afternoon. Equally, Mr. Delic is

25 here. He has provided an undertaking, as I've mentioned earlier, and he

Page 20

1 is certainly willing to confirm this undertaking and answer any questions

2 Your Honours might have with respect to his commitment to return for

3 trial and not to pose any danger for anybody involved or any victims or

4 witnesses.

5 Those are my submissions. I'm grateful, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bourgon, you gave us, I think one medical

7 report, is that right? For Ramiz.

8 MR. BOURGON: Indeed, Your Honour. There is one medical report

9 for the closest brother of Rasim Delic, and this medical report indicates

10 that this person is unable to travel and that this person is -- also the

11 information provided is that this person has regular contacts with the

12 accused, Rasim Delic.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Where do I see that he is unable to travel?

14 MR. BOURGON: If I look at the medical report is found in Annex

15 -- I refer you, Your Honour, to -- Annex G, annex golf.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: I have it in front of me.

17 MR. BOURGON: And this is the brother of General Delic, and in

18 this document in Annex G or golf, it is stated that there is an

19 impossibility to travel. If I may just refer to Annex golf.

20 Your Honour, I have the form here and we have the documents, and

21 it's Annex J, and not -- Juliet and not golf, I'm sorry -- where we have

22 a report. And according to the information provided in this report, it

23 is stated that duties at the working place for which the evaluation of

24 working capability is given, and health-related information, we have here

25 what type --

Page 21

1 JUDGE BONOMY: I just wanted to know where it said he couldn't

2 travel. That was all. I know that he is limbless and I know that he at

3 one time suffered from another condition, but it seemed that these did

4 not stop him from working, and I just wondered if there was a clear

5 statement that he could not travel.

6 MR. BOURGON: Well, Your Honour, of course, the ability to travel

7 is something that nowadays is more easy but this gentleman, of course,

8 has both legs amputated to the knees.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: But he was working after that, I think; is that

10 right? That didn't stop him from working. Or have I misunderstood?

11 MR. BOURGON: That didn't stop him working in a shop where he is.

12 The short answer to your question is there is no specific comment which

13 says "unable to travel." However, there is, where we have a paragraph 8,

14 and it says here that "opinion of the need for permanent help and care by

15 other persons" or "need for permanent help by other person," and it says,

16 "permanent help and care is necessary by the other person for carrying

17 out basic life necessities." And this started on the 4th of April 1998.

18 Now, again, if your question is does it say specifically unable

19 to travel, no; but it certainly makes it much more difficult and -- to

20 say almost impossible, in the absence of a statement, and it is certainly

21 in our view a submission which would justify Mr. Delic --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Presumably, if he were to travel the person who

23 is the caregiver would also have to travel with him.

24 MR. BOURGON: This appears to be indeed the case, Mr. President.

25 That person could travel with the assistance of someone giving the care.

Page 22

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not could, but would have to.

2 MR. BOURGON: Would have to, yes, indeed, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was the subject area of Mr. Delic's Ph.D.?

4 MR. BOURGON: The subject was related with the war in Bosnia.

5 The exact title is in the motion and it deals with the security

6 situation. The title of his Ph.D. is as follows: "Creation, development

7 and the role of the army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the

8 defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina." And as was provided to Your Honours

9 in our written submissions, this diploma for Doctor of Defence and

10 Security Sciences has been awarded to Mr. Delic on the 20th of December

11 2004 at the Faculty of Political Sciences in Sarajevo.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Thank you.

13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bourgon, if you could give us the names of those

14 accused who are provisionally released and also allowed to move freely

15 inside his national border, other than Mr. Halilovic.

16 MR. BOURGON: I believe there are no others, Your Honour. I

17 believe Rasim -- that Sefer Halilovic was the only one to be granted such

18 a condition. In my respectful submission, Your Honour, the facts of this

19 case, the guarantees provided and the type of individual that is Mr.

20 Delic, he is now a man of science, as he likes to call himself. He wears

21 -- I'm not sure if this is the right word, but he is called Doctor. He

22 is in scientific circles, and all the conditions in this case, all the

23 facts of this case, make it that for him to be able to travel on the

24 complete territory of the Federation, both for his professional,

25 scientific activities, and for his personal family reason, would be both

Page 23

1 justified and would be appropriate in the circumstances.

2 JUDGE KWON: My next question is how far or near is Sarajevo from

3 Visoko.

4 MR. BOURGON: Your Honour, Visoko is very close to Sarajevo. As

5 indicated in our written submissions, Mr. Delic has an apartment in

6 Sarajevo and his family house is in Visoko. The distance between the two

7 is, I guess, it's less than 25 kilometres. And for some people, Visoko

8 is actually considered as being part of Sarajevo, although on the terms

9 it is not part of Sarajevo.

10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

11 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

13 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis?

15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank, Your Honours. The Prosecution's position is

16 very clearly set forth in her response of 13th of April 2005. The

17 Prosecutor's position is that Rule 65(B) as Mr. Bourgon has indicated

18 does set forth two general conditions, including the fact that the Trial

19 Chamber must satisfy itself that the accused will appear for trial. The

20 jurisprudence of this Tribunal, including the jurisprudence of the

21 Appeals Chamber, sets forth a number of factors that a Chamber may

22 consider in satisfying itself that an accused will in fact appear for

23 trial.

24 The Prosecutor's position as set forth in our response is clearly

25 that several of those factors are of particular importance in this case.

Page 24

1 We have made reference to those, or the Prosecutor has made reference to

2 those in her response. They include the senior position of the accused

3 and the relationship between that senior position and the willingness of

4 state authorities to arrest the accused in the event he failed to respond

5 to a summons to reappear before this Tribunal; the serious nature of the

6 charges that the accused faces, with the attendant possibility of a very

7 serious sentence of confinement in the event he were to be convicted of

8 those charges; the fact that although the accused did provide a statement

9 in 2001 concerning a different case, the accused -- the Prosecutor's view

10 does not -- has not substantially cooperated with the Tribunal; and of

11 course, the argument that in light of the fact that the case has not

12 currently docketed is a factor that the Prosecutor believes the Trial

13 Chamber should consider in terms of the provisional release decision

14 which the Trial Chamber must make.

15 Again, Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecutor's position is

16 quite straightforward and quite simple. It is set forth in our response

17 and I will be happy to answer any questions that the Trial Chamber might

18 have.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Mundis, there is a suggestion -- or more than

20 a suggestion, a statement in the application for provisional release that

21 the Prosecution had indicated they would not oppose it. Are you able to

22 enlighten us any further on how that impression may have been created in

23 the Defence?

24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, or Your Honour, I believe that that,

25 in light of the corrigendum filed by the Defence, has been explained. I

Page 25












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 26

1 do believe that there was in fact a misunderstanding that was the result

2 of a discussion between Mr. Bourgon and myself in the recess of a

3 different trial proceeding that we are both involved in. Our position is

4 quite clear, that it's the Prosecutor or attorneys on behalf of the

5 Prosecution in terms of filing written responses or in terms of oral

6 responses before the Trial Chamber whereby the Prosecutor makes her

7 position --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: But you accept, then, that what is quoted as the

9 exchange in the corrigendum is accurate?

10 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, my recollection of that discussion was

11 along the lines that the Prosecution would make a decision based on the

12 position to be taken at the time the Defence or the accused made an

13 application. I do not recall at any point in time indicating that the

14 Prosecution would not oppose or would not take a position with respect to

15 provisional release.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: The actual words attributed are "the Prosecution

17 is not likely to oppose the motion."

18 MR. MUNDIS: I don't recall, Your Honour --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Bourgon is on his feet, yes.

21 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, may I intervene at this time? I

22 understand that this is an issue for which I would like to take the full

23 responsibility. This was a conversation between my colleague and I. I

24 may have misunderstood what the situation was. It was made clear to me

25 that what would happen is that it was to be evaluated on the basis of the

Page 27

1 written submissions, and it was my mistake not to take the motion, to

2 show it to my colleague before so that he could read it and say, yes, go

3 ahead. I've done this in other cases and this time I have not, and I

4 take the responsibility for such a move, Your Honour. Thank you very

5 much.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. That clarifies that

7 matter. And thank you for being so forthright.

8 Mr. Mundis?

9 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has nothing further.

10 JUDGE KWON: When do you think this trial can start, can get

11 started?

12 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, the workings of the scheduling

13 committee of this Tribunal, as I'm sure you're aware, are such that the

14 case is not currently on the docket. It would seem that it's not likely

15 to go to trial until perhaps the second half of 2007, although, of

16 course, there are a number of factors that impact upon the scheduling of

17 cases. The Prosecution would anticipate this that this trial would last

18 somewhere between most likely 12 and 18 months. Your Honour might be

19 referring to the Prosecutor's position as set forth in paragraph 4 of the

20 response. And the Prosecutor's position in this regard, Your Honour, is

21 simply that as the Tribunal moves closer to its anticipated completion

22 date with respect to trials, in the event an accused were not to

23 voluntarily resurrender upon being ordered to do so, and were in effect

24 to go into hiding or to go on the run, that the state or authorities

25 concerned would have a relatively short window in which to bring the

Page 28

1 accused back within the custody of the International Tribunal and

2 consequently we would perhaps be facing potential problems with respect

3 to actually commencing trials under those circumstances.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mundis, you say that it is not likely to go

5 to trial until perhaps the second half of 2007. We are now in the first

6 half of 2005. So that your own -- on your own assessment, were the

7 accused not to be granted provisional release, he would be in detention

8 for about two and a half years, at least.

9 MR. MUNDIS: That is correct, Mr. President. There are --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you a little bit embarrassed by that, by

11 having to make that submission?

12 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution stands by the

13 response as filed on the 14th of April 2005.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm a little bit embarrassed to be part of a

15 system where I would have to acknowledge that. I know that other accused

16 have spent two and a half years or even more in detention, but I don't

17 think that that was ever acknowledged at the beginning of the case as it

18 is now. But I think that's a fairly significant factor. Thank you.

19 Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

20 Ms. Borjana, Ms. Kristo, rather, the Minister of Justice of the

21 Federation, I don't know whether you have any comments that you would

22 wish to make, particularly in relation to the guarantees.

23 MS. KRISTO: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you, Your

24 Honours, on behalf of the government of the Federation. As Minister of

25 Justice, I now orally submit the guarantees which the government of the

Page 29

1 Federation has already provided in writing to the Chamber, and to the

2 International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia.

3 On behalf of the federation government, I wish to express once

4 again and emphasise our commitment to cooperating with the Tribunal, with

5 this Trial Chamber in particular, and in expressing this commitment, I

6 wish to put forward the clear standpoint of the government, that we are

7 willing to fulfil all the conditions imposed upon us by this Chamber and

8 the International Tribunal and we are willing to respond to any

9 instructions. Should Rasim Delic be granted provisional release and

10 permitted to live on the territory of the Federation of Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina, I reiterate the guarantees of the government that he will

12 appear for his trial, that he will not be a danger to any victim or

13 witness, and that he will fulfil any other conditions imposed by this

14 Chamber.

15 Let me reiterate, Your Honours, that we have already given oral

16 guarantees before this and other Trial Chambers and I hope that you have

17 been able to assure yourselves of our readiness to comply.

18 I am ready to answer any questions Your Honours might have for

19 me. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Kristo. We don't have any

21 questions of you. Thank you very much for coming.

22 MS. KRISTO: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there any other matter that any party wishes

24 to raise?

25 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, with your leave I would like simply

Page 30

1 to make a quick reply on one issue and that is the issue of the request

2 for Mr. Delic to be able to travel on the territory of the Federation. I

3 would simply highlight our submission in our written pleadings and that

4 deals with the rule of proportionality. And I think that this is

5 highlighted that the conclusion is that of course, if it is sufficient to

6 use a more lenient measure, it must be applied. In this case, in light

7 of the guarantees provided by the government, in light of the need, both

8 to ensure that the accused will come back but also that he can have a

9 living, I would -- it would be our submission, Mr. President, that such a

10 condition, to be able to travel on the territory of the Federation, which

11 could be accompanied by having the need to warn the authorities a certain

12 number of days in advance, would be a proportional measure in the

13 circumstances.

14 And finally, Mr. President, I did not answer all the submissions

15 of the Prosecution in my oral argument. We did so in writing, but there

16 is only one that I think is important at this time, and it's the idea of

17 cooperation. We highlighted the fact in our reply that there should not

18 be -- the fact that the accused did not give a statement after being

19 indicted, he should not be -- this should not be held against him in the

20 sense of obtaining provisional release. Thank you, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bourgon, just so you're in no doubt about it,

22 the thing that made me ask about the travel arrangements or the ability

23 to travel was to see that there was a very good reason for allowing that,

24 because your other basis for requesting freedom to travel concerns me

25 greatly, that is to engage in a public -- a publicity campaign, and I

Page 31

1 have a question in my own mind about whether that's an appropriate thing

2 to be done during a period on provisional release. So it was more to

3 establish if there was another basis for travel, and the health basis I

4 think has been made out on the face of it, but it may be that there

5 should be other conditions about what can be done during these periods of

6 travel.

7 MR. BOURGON: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I think you are

8 quite right. These are quite valid concerns that you ever and I've

9 discussed this issue with Mr. Delic this morning. What we can say and

10 what we tried to put in our submission is that that even though we talk

11 about promotion, these are scientific activities. These are not

12 propaganda. These are not communication. These are not -- these are

13 ideas where Mr. Delic has, as a man of science, and as a holder of a

14 Ph.D. degree, he entertains relationships and this would allow him to

15 continue doing so. Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's a kind of literary endeavour.

17 There being no other matter, this hearing is adjourned.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.45 p.m.