1 Monday, 16th July 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody again this morning.
7 May the Registrar please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.
9 Good morning, Your Honours. This is case numb IT-04-83-T number,
10 the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 And may we have the appearances for today, starting with the
14 Mr. Mundis.
15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
16 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom.
17 For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Laurie Sartorio. We are
18 assisted today by our intern, Shona McJarrett, and our case manager, Alma
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And for the Defence.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. My
22 name is Vasvija Vidovic, and with me is Nicholas Robson representing
23 General Rasim Delic, together with our case assistants, Lana Deljkic and
24 Lejla Gluhic.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 Before we begin, let me just remind you, sir, at the beginning of
2 your testimony you made a declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth,
3 and nothing else but the truth. Do you remember that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. Just to remind you that you are
6 still bound by that declaration to tell the truth.
7 Thank you very much.
8 Madam Sartorio.
9 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honour.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just a minute, before you start?
13 MS. SARTORIO: Yes.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess I need to announce that, once again, we are
15 sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis because Judge Harhoff is involved in an
16 initial appearance of an accused in another court.
17 Thank you very much. You may proceed, ma'am.
18 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I would like the usher to show the
19 witness Exhibit -- pre-trial Exhibit P02152 [Realtime transcript read in
20 error "P02552"].
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we show the witness that exhibit, please.
22 WITNESS: HASIB ALIC [Resumed]
23 [The witness answered through interpreter]
24 Examination by Ms. Sartorio:
25 Q. Sir, can you please tell us what this document is, if you know?
1 A. This is a list.
2 Q. A list of what?
3 A. Well, it says here, the list of the 3rd Corps, El Mujahedin
5 Q. And the date of the document is?
6 A. The 12th of -- I can't see the next digit. 1995. It may be
7 January or December 1995.
8 Q. Now, could you please look at the pages of the document and tell
9 us if you see your name; and if you do, what number it is beside your
11 A. It's listed under 10 -- no, no, 11. Alic, Mustafa Hasib. It's
12 number 11.
13 Q. And is all the information on that line correct?
14 A. 15th of May, 1993. Yes, it is.
15 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I would like to tender this document
16 as an exhibit.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.
18 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, the Defence has a concern over this
19 particular document. As it's just been mentioned, the date of the
20 document is unclear. We'd also point out there doesn't appear to be any
21 cover sheet on it; there doesn't seem to be anything relating to the
22 document to explain who it was sent by or who it was sent to, if anyone;
23 and there doesn't appear to be any sort of official stamp. So we express
24 those concerns, Your Honour, and we would suggest that perhaps the
25 document is not entered into evidence at this stage, unless perhaps we can
1 explore those concerns.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm advised, in fact, that it is already in
4 MR. ROBSON: Right.
5 Your Honour, the reason I said that is because the Prosecution has
6 referred to it as "PT2552," and that's the reason why I was under the
7 understanding it had not been entered as an exhibit. If it had been
8 entered as an exhibit, we'd have heard the exhibit number.
9 MS. SARTORIO: May I, Your Honour? It was pre-trial exhibit 2152,
10 and, yes, it has been entered as an Exhibit number 77.
11 MR. ROBSON: I'm grateful for that clarification. As I say, Your
12 Honour, I understood it was a pre-trial exhibit being arranged for the
13 first time.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Robson. On the original,
15 it does look like the date has been tampered with. On the English
16 version, a particular date is given. I don't know what to make of that.
17 MR. ROBSON: Well, Your Honour, it is as you say, that the
18 original version does appear to have had the date altered. It's in
19 evidence. It will be a matter for you in due course to decide what weight
20 you attach the document. I'll also mention this document with the witness
21 in cross-examination as well.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Robson.
23 You are to carry on, Madam Sartorio.
24 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I would like the usher to please show
25 the witness what has been marked as P02880 [Realtime transcript read in
1 error "P0880"], and I don't believe this has been entered as an exhibit.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me understand one thing, Madam Sartorio. You
3 said "P0880" --
4 MS. SARTORIO: "2880."
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- 2880, and then the transcript says "PT." Do you
6 make a distinction between "PT" and "P"?
7 MS. SARTORIO: One moment, Your Honour.
8 Your Honour, my case manager informs me that in e-court they are
9 called "P0," and she has asked me to use that designation.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And not "PT"?
11 MS. SARTORIO: Yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 MS. SARTORIO: But it's the same document.
14 Q. Mr. Witness, I'd like you to take a look at this document; and if
15 you can, could you please tell us what believe this document to be?
16 A. I have no idea. I've never seen it before.
17 Q. Can you tell us what -- okay. Could you look at the second page
18 of the document? Can you find any identifying information on this page?
19 A. Well, I can't. I've never seen this document before.
20 Q. Would you turn to the third page of the document and see if you
21 can find any identification information.
22 A. Well, I can hardly see anything here.
23 Q. Can you see it now?
24 A. Well, these are foreigners. I am not sure if I can recognise
25 anyone, and I have never seen this document before. This is an unknown
1 document to me.
2 Q. Well, can you tell us what it says up in the upper left-hand
4 A. Well, it says "Number, List of Members of the El Mujahedin
5 Detachment." Is this what you are talking about? Is this what you're
6 asking about?
7 Q. Yes. And also who is the document from? What does it say up in
8 the upper left-hand corner?
9 A. It says, "Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Military
10 Post Code 5023." I've never seen this document before. This is the first
11 time that I see a list of this kind.
12 Q. And what is the date on the document?
13 A. 26th of February, 1996.
14 Q. Can you tell us what the title of the document is?
15 A. Well, it doesn't really say here, as far as I can see, the title.
16 Q. Well, just before the list begins, there is -- there are some
17 words. Could you tell us what those words say?
18 A. Where? Fine. "List of Members of the El Mujahedin Detachment,
19 Military Post Code 5689, Zenica."
20 MS. SARTORIO: Could the Court usher please put the corresponding
21 page to the page on the right, the English? Okay. Thank you.
22 Q. Sir, I would like you to look through this document to see whether
23 you can identify whether your name is in this document.
24 MS. SARTORIO: You're going to have to scroll the document's
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is not here.
2 MS. SARTORIO: Well, the court usher needs to please scroll
3 several pages.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will the witness see when we scroll that fast?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is not here on this list.
6 MS. SARTORIO: I'd like the usher to continue to scroll, please.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could he go a bit slower? Could we
8 maybe scroll up a little bit? Yeah. No. Go slow. Go slow.
9 MS. SARTORIO: Could the usher zoom in on the top half of this
10 list, please.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To wait for Alic, Hasib, father's
12 name Mustafa. My name is here.
13 MS. SARTORIO:
14 Q. And could you tell us if your dates of service are correct in the
15 right-hand columns?
16 A. 15th of May, 1993, 27th of December, 1995. Yes, they are.
17 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I would like to tender this document
18 into evidence.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
20 please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit number 97.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 MS. SARTORIO:
24 Q. Mr. Alic, are you receiving a disability pension for your military
25 service in the ABiH?
1 A. Well, not so far. I did receive it for May, but that's not any
2 kind disability benefit. I don't get any kind of disability benefit.
3 Q. Are you receiving a type of pension based on your military
5 A. We got it for May of this year now.
6 Q. Is that the first monetary amount of pension that you have
7 received since your service ended in 1995?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Do you know the dates upon which your pension is based?
10 A. Well, I couldn't really tell you the exact dates. I don't know
11 what dates are on the certificates. I don't know when it was.
12 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you a question about one of the operations
13 that you told us about on Friday. You told us about the operation in
14 1993, when you went from Simulje to Borje to Radonjici. The question is:
15 Do you know if any of the members of your unit in May of 1993 conducted
16 any type of operations in Simulje?
17 A. I don't know. We all went there together. It wasn't the case
18 that somebody did something individually.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second, sir.
20 Yes, Mr. Robson.
21 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I've got to raise an objection as to
22 that last question.
23 The witness explained about an operation he participated in, last
24 week during his evidence, where he mentioned Simulje. However, it was
25 firmly established, Your Honour, that that operation took place in either
1 July or August of 1993. So my objection, Your Honour, relates to the
2 leading part concerning May.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.
4 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, yes, that was what the witness stated
5 on Friday. I'm asking him a separate question, though, if any operations
6 were conducted in May of 1993. So it's a separate question.
7 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, the objection was the fact that the
8 reference was made to May in the same part of the question dealing with
9 operations concerning Simulje. It's line 18 of the transcript, and 19.
10 Your Honour, if my learned friend wishes to establish from scratch
11 that operations took place in May, then that could be legitimate, but not
12 in the same turn of phrase as the operations concerning Simulje.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, not in relation to the operation that was
14 referred to last week.
15 MR. ROBSON: Indeed, yes.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MS. SARTORIO: That's fair, Your Honour.
18 Q. Mr. Alic, a separate question, quite apart from the operation that
19 you described that happened in around July of 1993, I'm asking if prior to
20 that operation, there were any operations conducted in Simulje,
21 particularly in May.
22 A. No, no such thing.
23 Q. Do you know if your unit or any accompanying units with you had to
24 conduct any type of reconnaissance in that area prior to your July
1 A. Well, I couldn't really tell you that. I don't know. Since we
2 knew the ground there, we knew the terrain, and there was not so much need
3 to do any reconnaissance.
4 Q. Mr. Alic, since the war ended in 1995, have you kept in contact
5 with any foreign members of the El Mujahedin Detachment?
6 A. Well, yes. With some of them who got the citizenship, who live
7 there, who have their families, I was in touch with them.
8 Q. And do you still see some of them today?
9 A. Well, yes, I do.
10 MS. SARTORIO: The Prosecution has no further questions, Your
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Sartorio.
13 Mr. Robson.
14 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Robson:
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Alic. My name is Nicholas Robson. I'll be
17 asking you some questions this morning.
18 You told us last week that you're from Suhi Dol village in Travnik
19 Municipality. Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And before the war, you worked there as a farmer; is that so?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And it's right to say that in that part of Travnik Municipality,
24 many of the local people were involved in agriculture or raising cattle as
25 their employment?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. I'd like to ask you about the events at the start of the war.
3 Is it right that in April 1992, the Serb forces entered the
4 Travnik region and took up positions on Mount Vlasic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And Mount Vlasic is the large mountain above your village; is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And at the time that the Serb forces arrived, men from the local
10 Bosnian Muslim villages and the Bosnian Croat villages formed village
11 defence units and set up defence lines against the Serbs on Mount Vlasic;
12 is that right?
13 A. Well, I know about us. I don't know about Croats, but probably
14 they also did the same thing. They also had those things.
15 Q. You can confirm that in the local Bosnian Muslim villages, the men
16 set up defence lines against the Serbs on the mountain?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And it was at that time in April 1992 that you believe you
19 effectively joined the Bosnian Army?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. Now, concerning the conditions for the men in the village defence
22 units, the Muslim village defence units, they were bad, weren't they?
23 A. Yes, they were bad.
24 Q. Most of the men were dressed in ordinary civilian clothing; is
25 that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And is it correct that, at that stage, you yourself didn't have a
3 military uniform?
4 A. Well, right at the beginning, I didn't have a uniform.
5 Q. Also, most of the men didn't have proper military equipment or
6 weapons, did they?
7 A. None of that.
8 Q. And so they had to make due with hunting rifles or what other
9 weapons they could find; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Also amongst those village defence units, it's right that there
12 were very few men with professional military experience and training; is
13 that right?
14 A. Well, as far as I know, that would be the case. Nothing special.
15 Q. And do you agree that the Serbs on Mount Vlasic were much more
16 organised and had better equipment than you in the other villages?
17 A. Well, they had everything. We had nothing.
18 Q. It's right, isn't it, at some point in time, the 306th Mountain
19 Brigade was formed, and you and the other members of the village defence
20 units became part of that brigade?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And can you confirm, when you and the other men became part of
23 that brigade, conditions did not become better, did they?
24 A. Conditions were bad.
25 Q. So the members of the 306th Mountain Brigade still did not have
1 weapons or uniforms; is that right?
2 A. Well, in that year, while I was in the army, the situation was
3 completely bad.
4 Q. And also once you became a member of the 306th Mountain Brigade,
5 that particular unit still lacked organisation, didn't it?
6 A. Well, there wasn't any organisation.
7 Q. Turning to 1993, it's right, isn't it, that relations between the
8 Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Croats deteriorated? Would you agree?
9 A. I would.
10 Q. And do you remember, by April 1993, is it right that the Croatian
11 Defence Council had set up roadblocks throughout the area, which made it
12 very difficult for the Bosnian Muslims to travel around?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, last week in your evidence, you told the Court that you left
15 the 306th Mountain Brigade in May 1993. However, at that time, do you
16 remember, it's right that the Bosnian Croats had withdrawn from the
17 defensive positions on Mount Vlasic, facing the Serbs; and at that time,
18 only the Muslims were left defending those lines. Is that right?
19 A. I don't know. It is possible that the Croats paired up with the
20 Muslims [as interpreted]. It is possible. I don't know.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The Serbs.
22 MR. ROBSON:
23 Q. Just to correct, then, Mr. Alic, what you said, it's possible that
24 the Croats paired up with the Serbs; is that what you said?
25 A. It is possible, but it doesn't have to be that way.
1 Q. In your evidence, you told us that in May 1993, you joined the El
2 Mujahed Detachment. Do you remember saying that?
3 A. Yes, I remember that.
4 Q. And when you joined that group of Arab Mujahedin, the number of
5 people in that group was very small, wasn't it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, can I suggest to you that while it's correct that you joined
8 a group of Arab Mujahedin, it didn't have the name El Mujahed Detachment
9 at that point in time, did it?
10 A. Well, it didn't. That's what the villagers later on referred to
12 Q. You say "later on referred to it." Would you agree with me that
13 the El Mujahed Detachment only -- I should say the group of Arab Mujahedin
14 only became known as the El Mujahed Detachment in August 1993?
15 A. Well, thereabouts, I would agree with that.
16 Q. Now, the whole time that you were in the El Mujahed Detachment,
17 it's right, isn't it, that at no time did the Arabs tell you their real
19 A. As far as I know, they didn't. They all had nicknames.
20 Q. It's right, isn't it, that they didn't want to reveal their true
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Now, you told us that the group of Mujahedin was located in the
24 village of Poljanice in three Serb houses. Do you remember telling us
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. After you joined that group, it's correct, isn't it, that the Arab
3 members of the group was constantly changing; and by that I mean, the
4 Arabs were often leaving while others were joining? Do you agree?
5 A. Well, I could agree to a certain extent.
6 Q. And after joining that group, it's right to say, isn't it, that
7 combat instructions were issued to members of the group only by the emir
8 of that group?
9 A. Yes, emir.
10 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that you and the other Mujahedin members
11 would only respond to the command of the emir?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, can you help us with this? In Central Bosnia, around that
14 time in 1993, it's right that there were other Arab groups around, apart
15 from the group that you joined; do you remember that?
16 A. It is possible, but I don't know. It is possible that there were.
17 Q. Again, if you don't know, please say so, but do you recall other
18 Arab groups being in Tesanj?
19 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that. I don't know the answer to
20 that. It is possible that there were, but I don't know.
21 Q. That's fine. How about Zepce?
22 A. Zepce? I don't know that there were any there.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Alic, I'd like to show you a document. It's Exhibit 67.
24 It was admitted into evidence last week.
25 Whilst we're waiting for that document to appear on the screens,
1 if I could just ask you: It's right, isn't it, you told us in your
2 evidence last week that you became a member of the Bosnian Army from 4th
3 of April 1992?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. ROBSON: Perhaps, if we could just look at the next page in
6 both the B/C/S and English version, just to verify what the main front
7 page of this document is.
8 Q. So we can see it's a document headed, "Overview of the El
9 Mujahedin Detachment." The page I'm interested in is page 4 in both the
10 English and the B/C/S versions.
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. ROBSON: Okay. I beg your pardon. It's page 3 of the B/C/S
13 version that we're interested in, and it's page 4 of the -- it should be
14 page 4 of the English translation. But perhaps if we can just pull up the
15 corresponding page.
16 Your Honour, we're still waiting for the corresponding page. It
17 should be the page before this one on the document.
18 Your Honour, I believe I should be able to deal with this point on
19 the B/C/S version.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead, Mr. Robson.
21 MR. ROBSON:
22 Q. Now, Mr. Alic, if we look at the list and if we go down to number
23 4, we can see your name there, can't we, "Alic, Hasib"?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, if we look across the document and look at the third column,
1 we can see a heading at the top of that third column. Do you see that
3 A. A list of members of the unit.
4 Q. Okay. And if we go below that, what I'm interested in is the --
5 in the third column along, do you see where it says at the top of that
6 third column: "In Army of BiH as of ..."? Do you see that?
7 A. Yes, in the BH Army from a certain date.
8 Q. Exactly. So what it says is or what the meaning is, the person
9 was in the BiH Army from a certain date. Now, if we go down --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If we go down the list to your entry, under Point number 4 --
12 A. 15 May 1993.
13 Q. -- is it correct that you were in the Bosnian Army from the 15th
14 of May, 1993?
15 A. On the 15th, I joined the detachment; and up to the 14th, I was in
16 the BiH Army.
17 Q. So where this document states that you were in the Army of BiH as
18 from May 1993, does that mean that this information is incorrect?
19 A. It says here that I was with the El Mujahed Detachment as of the
20 15th of May, 1993. This list doesn't show that I was a member of the army
21 at all.
22 Q. Well, I think the question that I'm asking you is that at the top
23 of the column, it says: "In Army of BiH as of ..." In other words, date
24 commencing in the Bosnian Army, and it has a date stated here, "15th of
25 May, 1993." It's right, isn't it, that from what you told us earlier, you
1 actually commenced service in the Bosnian Army in April 1992; isn't that
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, I'd like to refer you to another document. This is Exhibit
5 78. This is the -- this is a military record that was referred to last
7 MR. ROBSON: Perhaps, if we could initially look at page 1 of this
8 document, the first page containing -- the particular page that we're
9 interested in is -- I'll give you the ERN number. It's 0365-5060.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson, we have been given a hard copy of this
11 document. Do you want to carry on?
12 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, if you have the hard copy, that's very
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Except that I'm not able to read it.
15 MR. ROBSON: Well, Your Honour, copies of a translation have been
16 provided as well, so the court usher should be able to give you a hard
17 copy of the B/C/S and English versions of this document.
18 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, could -- thank you.
19 MR. ROBSON: Does Your Honour have both versions?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Yes, I do.
21 MR. ROBSON:
22 Q. Mr. Alic, can I just confirm that you have got a B/C/S document in
23 front of you, a two-page document; and on the first page, up in the top
24 left-hand corner at number 1, it has your name, "Alic, Mustafa Hasib"?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you remember being shown this document last week by the
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. If you could turn over onto the second page.
5 MR. ROBSON: And, Your Honour, the English translation does not
6 exactly correspond to the B/C/S version, so it's page 4 of the English
7 translation we're interested in.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MR. ROBSON:
10 Q. Now, Mr. Alic, you were asked questions about your military
11 service last week. Do you remember?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If I can refer your attention to Point 33 on the this document.
14 MR. ROBSON: Perhaps if we can -- Your Honour, I see we now have
15 it up on our screen as well.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. ROBSON:
18 Q. It's right, isn't it, that Point 33 has a heading that states
19 "Promotions." Do you see that?
20 A. Please repeat your question.
21 Q. In front of you, do you see the part of the document - it's in Box
22 number 33 - and it should say "Promotions"? It's the second page of the
24 A. Yes, I can see it: "Private sergeant" and "First sergeant."
25 Q. I realise you're looking at both pages, so I realise it's probably
1 me that's confusing you as well. So I apologise for that.
2 So let's focus our attention on the left-hand side of this
3 document, first of all. In your evidence, as I understand it, you were a
4 common soldier in the Bosnian Army. Is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then when you joined the group of Mujahedin that went on to be
7 called the El Mujahed Detachment, it's correct, isn't it, that you
8 remained a common soldier; is that so?
9 A. Yes, that is so.
10 Q. Now, in this left-hand -- on this left-hand side of the document,
11 in Box 33, "Promotions," it states a number of positions, doesn't it? Can
12 you see that?
13 A. Yes, I can.
14 Q. So it states that for you, first of all, you were "razvodnik"?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you agree that you were a razvodnik, a private?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, if we go on to the next entry, it states "Sergeant." You were
19 never a sergeant, were you?
20 A. Never.
21 Q. And if we go along that part of the document, Point 2, "Sergeant,"
22 we can see a date there at the end, "Pro/E datum," 1994.
23 If we go down to the next entry, Point number 3, it states for
24 you -- it states: "First sergeant." It's right, you were never a first
25 sergeant, were you?
1 A. No, I was never a first sergeant.
2 Q. Okay. And now I'd like to refer you to the date on this
3 particular document, which is at the bottom of the same page on the
4 left-hand side. This is at page 5 in the English translation.
5 It's right, isn't it, Mr. Alic, that this document, which
6 supposedly sets out your military history, is stamped and dated 19th of
7 January 1988? Do you see that?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. So this document was signed and dated more than three years before
10 you actually joined the Bosnian Army; that's right, isn't it?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. Mr. Alic, I'd now like to refer you to another exhibit. It's a
13 photograph that we looked at last week. It's Exhibit 96, and it's
14 Photograph number 4 of the tents.
15 MR. ROBSON: Now, for the record, I'm just going to specify that
16 this document is ERN 0292-3920.
17 Now, last week, when you were asked about this photograph by the
18 Prosecutor, you said: "As far as I can make out, this is the 13th
19 kilometre where we were located." Do you remember saying that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. First of all, would you agree with me that this is not a
22 particularly good-quality photograph?
23 A. It's nothing special, but there you go.
24 Q. And what we can see here are simple tents that you would have been
25 able to see in many places around Bosnia at that time; is that so?
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. And the Bosnian Army used these sorts of tents throughout the
3 country during the war, didn't they?
4 A. I wouldn't know.
5 Q. And would you agree with me there's nothing particularly special
6 about the scenery, is there? We can see a lot of trees, but this
7 particular place could be almost anywhere or many places in Bosnia; is
8 that right?
9 A. Yes, it could be anywhere; but as I've told you, this could be it.
10 Q. And would you agree with me that, when we look at the photograph,
11 there are no special features that could identify it as the 13th
12 kilometre? We don't see any mountains, for example?
13 A. Well, there is some hills -- hills around, but the photo is not
14 very clear.
15 Q. And last week in your evidence, you mentioned there were two or
16 three abandoned buildings at the 13th kilometre. We can't see them in
17 this photograph, can we?
18 A. No, we can't.
19 Q. And there's nothing in particular to tell us what year the
20 photograph was taken, is there?
21 A. I don't know when this was taken.
22 Q. So would you agree with me when I say that we can't be certain
23 that this is a picture of the 13th-kilometre location?
24 A. It could be any other place; but as far as I know, this should be
25 the 13th.
1 MR. ROBSON: Just one moment, Your Honour.
2 Your Honour, those complete -- that completes my questions.
3 But before I sit down, I'd just like to ask that the translation
4 of the last document, P76, be admitted into evidence -- 78, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say the translation?
6 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour. As I understand it, the Bosnian
7 version was admitted into evidence last week, but we didn't have an
8 English translation.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Well, may the translation of Exhibit 78
10 please be admitted into evidence. I guess it's going to be given the same
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And be given an exhibit number.
14 MR. ROBSON: Sorry to interrupt. I've been informed that
15 apparently, when the Prosecution document was admitted into evidence, it's
16 a substantial document containing many, many, many pages. So I think just
17 for the purpose of keeping this particular document clear, it would be
18 useful if we admitted both the English translation and that page together
19 as a separate document.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: So be it. Then, these pages of the Bosnian
21 version, together with the English translation thereof, may they please be
22 given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit number 98.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 Madam Prosecutor.
1 MS. SARTORIO: We have no redirect, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Madam Judge, no questions?
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: No, thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Alic, thank you very much. That concludes your
5 testimony in the Court.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That completes your testimony, as I was still
8 saying. Thank you very much for coming; and on behalf of the Tribunal, I
9 just want to say thank you for availing yourself as a witness in this
11 You are now excused. You may stand down. Thank you very much.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.
16 Mr. Mundis is standing up.
17 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 MR. MUNDIS: The next witness the Prosecution calls is Saban Alic.
20 I will indicate that I am not sure if this witness is yet in the building.
21 We had anticipated that the cross-examination might have required a
22 little bit more time. Perhaps, with the Trial Chamber's indulgence, we
23 could take the first break at this point in time, and I can assure you
24 that he will definitely be here at 10.30 to commence his direct
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: If we take our break now and come back at 10.30.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Court adjourns and comes back
4 at 10.30.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.00 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.33 a.m.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
9 A new witness. Okay. May the witness make the declaration.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 WITNESS: SABIN ALIC
14 [The witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
16 Mr. Wood.
17 MR. WOOD: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Examination by Mr. Wood:
19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Alic.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. Could you please tell the Court your name, spelling of your first
22 and last name?
23 A. My name is Saban Alic; A-l-i-c, S-a-b-a-n.
24 Q. Thank you. And what is your date of birth?
25 A. 11th of December, 1969.
1 Q. Where were you born, sir?
2 A. I was born in the village of Suhi Dol in the Travnik Municipality.
3 Q. Were you living in Suhi Dol in 1992?
4 A. Yes, I was.
5 Q. Can you please tell the Court, when did the war begin in your
6 area? When did it begin in your area?
7 A. Well, the armed conflict itself in our area started only in 1993;
8 but in 1992, a line was set up against the Serbs in the Vlasic area; the
9 Territorial Defence, as it was at the time. It was actually organised
10 village by village on the initiative of the local people, and the line was
11 set up, up there on Mount Vlasic. It wasn't much of a line, but we, in my
12 village, Suhi Dol, we had a dugout where we took it in shifts. We'd stay
13 up there for 48 hours, and then your turn would come again.
14 Q. Just to confirm, then, you were a member of the Territorial
16 A. Yes, from the very first day.
17 Q. And what was the very first day?
18 A. Well, I can't give you the exact date. It was in the spring of
19 1992. I don't really know the exact date.
20 Q. How far is Vlasic from your village of Suhi Dol?
21 A. Well, in terms of kilometres, you can only walk there, and it
22 would take you maybe two or two and a half hours to get there on foot,
23 from the village to the place where we held this position in this dugout.
24 Q. And who was on the other side of your lines in 1992 on Mount
1 A. Well, the Serbs. They held the communication relay at Vlasic. It
2 was called Paljenik.
3 Q. Where, precisely on that line, were you assigned when you were
4 with the Territorial Defence?
5 A. Well, I and we who held this position there, it was at Vlasicka
6 Gromila, the Vlasic summit on our side, more or less.
7 Q. And who was your commander when you were in the Territorial
9 A. Just a moment.
10 Q. I'll move on.
11 A. Yeah. It's been a long time.
12 Q. I understand, sir. When you went to the line, you mentioned that
13 you went in shifts to the line. What precisely did you do when you were
15 A. Up there, while we were up there in the dugouts, well, we had an
16 observation post set up there that looked on to Paljenik, and we took
17 shifts there in pairs. We would stay there for two hours and we would
18 observe in this direction, and that was our task, the task that we carried
20 Q. Sir, if you added up all the people who were manning all of those
21 shifts, how many people would that have been?
22 A. Well, perhaps a dozen, 12, something like that. Fifteen, ten to
23 15, something like that.
24 Q. Did you remain in the Territorial Defence throughout the war?
25 A. I was in the Territorial Defence up until the time when the 306th
1 Brigade was set up in that area.
2 Q. Did you then become a member of the 306th Brigade?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And who was your commander in the 306th Brigade?
5 A. I forgot his name. I know the man, but I don't know his -- I
6 can't remember his name anymore.
7 Q. Do you recall the name of any commanders you had in the 306th
9 A. I remember the commander of my company. That was Sinan Begovic.
10 And I didn't spend that much time there, and I really wasn't interested in
11 it all that much.
12 Q. You said the commander of your company was Sinan Begovic. How big
13 was the company?
14 A. Well, maybe 30 of us were in this company. We had a dugout that
15 we held at Ljuta Greda. The company was designated as an anti-armour
16 company. And according to the establishment, that's what it was, an
17 armour company, but we didn't have any anti-armour weapons at that time.
18 Q. So what was, then, the military objective, as you understood it,
19 of being stationed at Ljuta Greda?
20 A. Well, the objective was to hold the line, to defend all those
21 areas that Serbs had not taken up until that time.
22 Q. So, at the dugout at Ljuta Greda, how many people would be on each
24 A. Well, five or six of us.
25 Q. And how often would you do a shift?
1 A. Well, to tell you the truth, there wasn't much of an organisation
2 there. Often, it would happen to me, or to my group, that when we arrived
3 there, some soldiers, if I may call them that, would already be there in
4 our dugout. So we didn't have -- there was not enough room for us there,
5 and we would just turn around and go back home.
6 Q. Did you remain in the 306th Brigade throughout the rest of the
8 A. No. On the 1st of June, 1993, I went to Zapode. There was a
9 group of Arabs there, and I transferred to them.
10 MR. WOOD: This might be an appropriate time to have the witness
11 shown, in the map book, particularly Map 9, which is marked 0618-6704.
12 Q. Do you see a map in front of you, sir, on the screen?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 MR. WOOD: I wonder if the witness can be handed a pen so that he
15 can -- or be shown how to mark this electronically.
16 Q. Mr. Alic, looking at this map, could you please make a mark where
17 Zapode is located?
18 A. Well, approximately, somewhere here, maybe 300 or 400 metres from
19 Mehurici, in the direction of Poljanice. It's a straight line.
21 Q. And just for the record, if you could put a "1" next to that mark,
22 so that later, when we're looking at the record, we will know what it is
23 you indicated.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, when -- on June 1st, 1993, when you joined
1 this group at Zapode, was the 306th Brigade still maintaining the line at
2 Ljuta Greda?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And when you went to Zapode, did you tell your commander, Sinan
5 Begovic, that you were leaving?
6 A. No, I didn't say anything to anyone. I just went away.
7 Q. Did you fill out any paperwork in order to leave the 306th and go
8 to this group?
9 A. No, absolutely nothing. A friend of mine had already gone there
10 and he came to my home to pick me up, and I just went with him. There was
11 no paperwork. I didn't say anything to anyone, and nobody actually asked
12 me anything.
13 Q. Why did you decide to go to the group at Zapode?
14 A. Well, you know, the very fact that, according to the
15 establishment, the dugout at Ljuta Greda belonged to us; and then we would
16 go there and somebody was already there, and they would say, "No, no.
17 It's not yours." There was a lot of disorder, lack of discipline, and the
18 main reason that prompted me was religion.
19 Q. Did you go to the group at Zapode to avoid military service?
20 A. No, definitely not.
21 Q. Did you consider yourself to be leaving the ABiH when you went to
22 the group at Zapode?
23 A. Well, the way I saw things, at that time, the way I understood
24 things, for as long as you held a rifle and for as long as there was
25 danger for our families and for our survival, I could not consider myself
1 having left the ranks. I consider myself to still belong to them.
2 Q. At what time did you arrive at Zapode on June 1st, 1993?
3 A. Around noon. I remember that it was lunch when we got there, and
4 we joined them for lunch.
5 Q. How many people were there?
6 A. Well, not many of them. Maybe about ten.
7 Q. Do you recall any of their names?
8 A. Well, I know Abu Minah, the cook. His name stuck in my memory. I
9 remember Dzafer. He was also an Arab. Then Abu Bada [phoen], at least
10 that's what we called him. I don't know what his real name was; there was
11 also Abu Haris. I don't really recall right now who was there at the
12 time. There were some people that I was not introduced to, and I never
13 was introduced to them at all.
14 Q. So you're mentioning names. Were they primarily Arabs that were
15 at Zapode?
16 A. Yes, at the time when I got there.
17 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions about the camp at Zapode.
18 Could you please describe what it looked like?
19 A. The camp is maybe 300 or 400 metres away from Mehurici, as I
20 already said. There were three houses there. They all belonged to Serbs.
21 It is not a flat area. There is a slight slope. There are some woods
22 separating one house from the rest of the houses. There was the -- the
23 third house was further away, hidden by some woods. There were some fruit
24 trees, but mostly it was a grassy area. It was not tilled. The land was
25 not tilled.
1 Q. Were there Serbs living in the house when you went there in June
3 A. No. The houses had already been taken. I don't know what
4 happened to those Serbs. I didn't know them at all, not even from before.
5 Q. You mentioned the camp was 300 or 400 metres from Mehurici. Did
6 you see any other military units in Mehurici?
7 A. At that time or later on?
8 Q. At that time.
9 A. Well, sometime before that - I don't know how long before that -
10 Jajce fell into the Serb hands. So quite a few of those - I don't know
11 what their unit was called - but there were quite a few of those people in
12 Mehurici. We called them "Krajisnici," the people from Krajina.
13 Q. You mentioned that you came to Zapode with a friend. Did he
14 remain with you there throughout the war?
15 A. No. This friend of mine got wounded quite soon after this. He
16 was hit by shrapnel in his eye, and soon he left and he went abroad to get
17 treatment. And he lives in Finland to this day. He hasn't come back.
18 Q. How soon after you came to Zapode was the action that resulted in
19 his injury?
20 A. Well, maybe a week, seven or eight days, something like that.
21 Q. Between the time you came to Zapode and that military action, did
22 you leave the camp?
23 A. No, not at all. I didn't leave the camp, not even to go back
24 home. I spent the entire time there.
25 Q. Did you notice other people camped at Zapode leave the camp?
1 A. Well, a long time has passed. It's possible.
2 Q. Who is the commander of the camp at that time?
3 A. The commander of the camp was Abu Haris.
4 MR. WOOD: I'd like to show the witness a photograph, but I would
5 like to keep this -- the map that he's already marked, I'd like to keep
6 it, if that's possible. I see that it's not. So I'll stick with the map
7 and have him mark that, and move on to the next thing after that.
8 Q. Mr. Alic, I want to ask you some questions now about the military
9 operation that you said resulted in the injury of your friend.
10 Did you also participate in that military operation?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Had you ever participated in actual combat before that?
13 A. Up until that time, no. That was the first time.
14 Q. When did you first find out that you were going to engage in
16 A. I found that out on the eve of this action. The night before, in
17 other words.
18 Q. And how did you find out?
19 A. Well, on the eve of the action, some groups were set up. People
20 were assigned to groups, and there was a call for volunteers. And only
21 those people who wanted to go into this action, to r to break through the
22 lines, they were put into those groups.
23 Q. And who assigned people to the groups?
24 A. When people volunteered, then there was Vahidin and Muatez, and
25 there were some other people I didn't get to know all that well. I didn't
1 know at the time that those were their names. I learned it later,
2 although I was with them there. I lived with them.
3 Q. You mention Abu Haris was the commander of the camp. Was he
4 involved in assigning people to the groups?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you mention a person named Muatez. Was he also involved with
8 A. Abu Haris wasn't. Abu Haris had other duties, as far as I could
9 see, but Muatez was a soldier and he was involved.
10 Q. Do you know what other duties Abu Haris had?
11 A. I know that he was a medical doctor by profession.
12 Q. So I want to ask you some questions now about the day of the
13 operation itself.
14 At what point did you leave the camp at Zapode?
15 A. I was not in that break-through group that was to launch the
16 attack, somewhere between Suhi Dol and Poljanice. I followed the group.
17 It was at dawn. It was already daylight. I don't know how late it could
18 have been.
19 Q. I believe the map is still in front of you, sir.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And I see that you have the pen in your hand.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Could you please mark on the map where it is that you're talking
24 about, when you said you went to a place between Suhi Dol and Poljanice or
1 A. This would be somewhere around here, approximately. [Marks] There
2 are a lot of paths that the villagers used to reach the fields. We took
3 one of those paths.
4 Q. And, sir, if I could please have you place the number "2" next to
5 that mark, so that later we'll be able to determine what it is you've
6 indicated there.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Thank you, sir. You said you weren't in the group that was doing
9 the spearheading. How many people were in that group, that first group?
10 A. They left when it was still dark, so it's very difficult for me to
11 say how many of them went. I wouldn't know their exact number.
12 Q. How many people were in your group?
13 A. Between ten and 15. Not that many.
14 Q. Do you know the names of any of the people in that group?
15 A. I know from the village of Dub, his name was Fusko Ramo; Zuhdija
16 Sehic, my friend, was with us. There were some other people whose names I
17 can't remember at this moment.
18 Q. How long did it take you to get from Zapode, which is number 1 on
19 the map, to what's been marked number 2 on the map?
20 A. Maybe between 20 to 30 minutes, approximately.
21 Q. And by the time you got to number 2, the position marked number 2,
22 did you see the first group that went out ahead of you?
23 A. No, I did not see them.
24 Q. Okay. So, after you arrived at the position on the map marked
25 number 2, how long did you stay there?
1 A. We did not stop there. The line had already been broken through,
2 so we followed immediately after the first group. There was a clearing
3 there. We ran, in the direction of Simulje, we ran across that clearing.
4 Q. And, sir, if you could, if you could mark on the map where Simulje
5 is located.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. And if you could put a number "3" next to that.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. And how long did it take you to get to that position, if you
10 recall, sir?
11 A. Maybe 15 minutes.
12 Q. How did you know to run in that direction towards Simulje?
13 A. Well, I knew because my village, Suhi Dol, is below, and I had
14 used to come to Simulje even before. This is where we played football.
15 I'm very well acquainted with Simulje, and I was at the time as well.
16 Q. But how did you know on that day, during that military operation,
17 that you were to run in the direction of Simulje?
18 A. Even before the operation, I arrived there. The Croats had set up
19 the lines; and from my village, while I was still not in Zapode, I would
20 come to that line. That's how I knew where they were. Our villagers
21 manned a line below Simulje on the border of that level field.
22 Q. Can you tell us, sir, generally where the Croat lines were?
23 A. Well, the Croat lines were on a slope. I can't see it on the
24 screen. It's not depicted on this map. In any case, as you come from the
25 direction of Simulje, and as you reach that slope, below it, in the
1 direction of Radonjici and Maline, there is a steep slope. It was some
2 sort of a long elevation.
3 Q. Could you mark that front line on that map, sir? I understand you
4 might not be able to determine the topography, but could you mark
5 generally where the line was?
6 A. This is the clearing from Simulje leading upwards. That's the
7 only thing that looks like it. Here somewhere, it was. [Indicates] I
8 can't be any more precise; although, I'm familiar with the area. I had
9 been there before. I went there after this operation. A path leads
10 through here up to the mountain.
11 Q. So could you mark on the map, sir, draw the line where the Bosnian
12 Croat line was?
13 A. It was here in Percin. [Indicates] I know that they were up
14 there in Percin. They had a dugout there, and then in the direction above
15 Gornje Maline, and then towards Postinje. As you follow the edge between
16 Gornje and Donje Maline, the line continued all the way up to Mount
18 Q. I see, sir, there are two marks on the map. Could you please draw
19 a line where you're talking about where the line was, the confrontation
21 A. It says "Percin" here, and I know that the line was here, and then
22 it gets somewhat less clear. But in any case, it was above Maline,
23 Gornje, and Donje Maline. This is where the line was, I'm sure.
24 Q. Could you indicate that line on the map, sir?
25 A. There's something I'm not very clear about here. There's
1 something that is confusing here. The line was somewhere in Bikosi as you
2 go towards Postinje, but there was also above Maline, above Gornje, and
3 Donje Maline. I'm afraid I can't find my bearings on this map. It's
4 rather difficult.
5 Q. Okay. Well, I notice that there are three dots on the map, at
6 least three -- I guess four dots on the map. Those appear in blue.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Those points indicate where positions are on the Bosnian Croat
9 line; is that correct?
10 A. Well, I'm not sure. I'm 100 per cent sure about Percin. The
11 rest, I'm afraid I'm not sure. The picture is not the one that I'm
12 familiar with. I cannot tally what I have in my head and what I see on
13 the map.
14 MR. WOOD: Okay. Just one moment.
15 Q. Now, sir, you've indicated some positions there. On the day of
16 the operation, how did you know that you were to head towards Simulje and
17 not, for instance, towards Percin or toward Bikosi?
18 A. Well, I was with the group. I was maybe the fifth or the sixth in
19 the group, and I just followed the others, those who were in front of me.
20 Q. Do you recall who was in charge of your group?
21 A. I don't know. I'm a bit confused about that.
22 Q. Who told you to go to what's been marked as Point 2 on the map in
23 the morning?
24 A. I'm telling you, we left Zapode in a group, single file. I
25 followed the others. Nobody said, "March," actually.
1 Q. You said before that you ran from Point 2 to Point 3, and where
2 did you run to?
3 A. No, no, no. I didn't say that. I ran from Simulje - hold on just
4 a moment - across Simulje. We ran across Simulje, because that was a
5 clearing, and there was a possibility that somebody could have stayed
6 behind and that they could have intercepted us. From Point 2 to Point 3,
7 this is where we ran across through that area, from Simulje.
8 Q. After you got to Simulje, where did you run to, sir? Where did
9 you go? Where did you proceed to?
10 A. We crossed Simulje and we came to their trenches, to their line.
11 I saw one or two dead bodies in the trench, and then we proceeded towards
12 Borovi. I don't know how they are depicted here on the map, but in any
13 case we called that location "Borovi."
14 Q. Could you mark where Borje is on the map, sir?
15 A. Borovi is above Radonjici. Maybe this is it. [Indicates] I
16 would say that this is that part.
17 Q. I see that Borje is marked in blue. Could you please put a number
18 "4" next to that, sir?
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Also, sir, if you could please indicate where it was that you saw
21 the bodies in the trench.
22 A. On the line, the line leading from Percin downwards and ended
23 above Donje Maline. I was talking about that slope. As you cross that
24 slope, this is where they were. And they were not dugouts; they were
25 trenches. I remember that well.
1 Q. I see you've put a mark on this map right before where the "G" for
2 "Gornje Maline" is. Could you please mark that as "5," so we can
3 distinguish it from the other marks you've put on the page?
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, did you stop at -- it might be better to
6 clarify something here first. Could you please spell "Borje"?
7 A. I don't know whether this is Borje. It says "Borje" here, but we
8 called that area Borovi, because there are a lot of pine trees there.
9 That's why we called the area "Borovi."
10 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Do you stay in this area?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And for how long did you stay there?
13 A. Maybe an hour. One of our men had gotten killed here. There was
14 a tent here. I wasn't in that tent. The Croats were billeted there in
15 that tent. Our men entered that tent to take some rest. However, one of
16 the Croats, not knowing that it was our men in the tent, arrived and said,
17 "Good morning." And when he realised that he was not talking to his own
18 men, he opened a burst of fire on our man, killing one of our soldiers.
19 Q. And I want to clarify for the record, sir. When you say "Croats,"
20 are you referring to Croats or Bosnian Croats?
21 A. Bosnian Croats, of course. I suppose they were Bosnian Croats.
22 Maybe there was somebody else from somewhere else. In any case, they were
23 wearing uniforms.
24 Q. After Borje, where did you proceed to, sir?
25 A. I went down to the village of Radonjici.
1 Q. Could you indicate Radonjici on the map?
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. And please put a number "6" by Radonjici?
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. How long did you stay in Radonjici that day?
6 A. Not long. Since the Croats had carried out an operation at
7 Bandol, my group proceeded to go down to Bandol, where my friend actually
8 got wounded.
9 Q. Could you please mark Bandol on this map and put a number "7" by
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Thank you, sir. So you said your group proceeded to Bandol.
13 Where did you go?
14 A. Somebody was looking for a local who would be familiar with the
15 terrain, and somebody pointed to me and said I was local. And Muatez was
16 to go back to Zapode. I didn't know why. I didn't know at the time his
17 name was Muatez. I returned from Radonjici to Zapode, together with
19 Q. And what route did you follow, sir?
20 A. We went back to Borovi; and from Borovi, we followed their line
21 downwards across Bikosi, and then we arrived in Zapode.
22 Q. And why was it that you followed their line?
23 A. It was the safest route. There were no mines, landmines there, so
24 we opted for that for safety.
25 Q. If you could, sir, please draw a line along the route that you
1 followed between Radonjici and Zapode.
2 A. Again, I am confused. I'm just not able to get my bearings. This
3 place, Borje, and the line --
4 Q. Okay. Let me ask another way. Did you -- did you pass through
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you pass through --
8 A. There is an asphalt road. As you follow this line along the
9 slope, there is something like a ridge; and following the top of that
10 ridge, you go down to Bikosi. And there is one segment of asphalt; and as
11 you follow that, you enter Zapode.
12 Q. Did this route take you through Maline?
13 A. No. Maline is to the right. If you were to go through Maline,
14 you would prolong the whole journey. So, no, you can't. You can't go
15 that way.
16 Q. At what time did you pass through Bikosi?
17 A. It's very difficult for me to remember exactly. I don't know.
18 Maybe 12:00, or half past 11.00, maybe. I know that we arrived around
19 noon or before the noon, because we went to the mosque to say our prayers.
20 Q. When you say you arrived around noon or before noon, to what
21 location are you referring? Where did you arrive to?
22 A. In Zapode. We reached our destination.
23 Q. And who were you with?
24 A. With Muatez.
25 Q. Were you with anybody else?
1 A. Just the two of us. Our order, or my order, was to take him to
2 Zapode. I was to escort him because he was not familiar with the terrain.
3 That was our destination, Zapode.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: How did you travel, sir?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On foot, of course. You could not
6 even use the car there because of the configuration of the ground.
7 There's just a foot path, nothing else.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought you said there's an asphalt road
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There is some asphalt, maybe
11 300 to 400 metres, but only through Bikosi. As you descend from that
12 ridge, you can only take that foot path. As you come to the village,
13 maybe there is 200 or 300 metres of asphalt road, maybe not even that
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 Mr. Wood.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
18 MR. WOOD: If I could have just one moment, Your Honour.
19 Q. Okay, sir. Looking at this map, I'm wondering if you can tell us,
20 just for the sake of the record, showing the numbers, just saying the
21 numbers out loud, what is the route that you followed from Zapode to
22 Radonjici? So, for instance, Zapode is at number 1.
23 A. Yes. There is no path on this side, just a foot path which people
24 used to reach their farms. If you want to go to Radonjici, you have to go
25 from Krpeljici. There is an asphalt road up to Radonjici from Krpeljici
1 or from Guca Gora. And from Krpeljici, you can get to Radonjici.
2 Q. Would it be fair, sir, to say, based on what your testimony is
3 today, that you followed this route to Radonjici on that day, from
4 Position 1 to Position 2 to Position 3, which is Borje, to Position -- and
5 Position 3 is Simulje - I'm sorry - to Position 4, which is Borje, and
6 then to 6, which is Radonjici? So it would be 1, 2, 3, 4, 6; is that
7 correct, sir?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, I would
10 like to object. On two occasions, the witness has expressed his doubts
11 about the location of Borje. He is speaking about Borovi, and he's being
12 suggested that the place is called Borje, although he has mentioned Borovi
13 on several occasions.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought, Madam Vidovic, that at some stage, he
15 said they called it Borovi, although it is called Borje. Let's just see
16 if we can find that part. And I do remember Mr. Wood saying, "I thank you
17 for that clarification," after that.
18 Do you remember that?
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is not the way I
20 understood it, but maybe the witness can be asked to clarify.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that in the map it says
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second. Mr. Wood, would you like to clear
24 that point with the witness?
25 MR. WOOD: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 MR. WOOD:
3 Q. When you refer to the place called Borovi, Mr. Alic, is that place
4 represented by number 4 on the map?
5 A. Well, I don't know exactly. I said, "if that's it." If Borje is
6 this place, Borovi, then that's what it is. It's difficult for me to
7 really figure it out on this map. We called it "Borovi," and that means
8 pine trees, because there were many pine trees there. It is somewhere
9 there. All of it is there in the vicinity. I know you can see Krpeljici
10 from there. It is close to Radonjici. You can see Radonjici and Guca
11 Gora, too.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, Madam Vidovic, if you'd look at also page 41
13 from line 22 into page 42, you'll see a similar explanation given there.
14 Can you see that?
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, precisely. This
16 is the reason why I raise this objection, because, Your Honour, it doesn't
17 follow from this that this is one and the same location.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, he says, "It says 'Borje' here, but we called
19 that area Borovi." That's his testimony. I don't know whether you can
20 take it much further than that. If you want to say did he say Borje and
21 there is a Borovi, which are two different places, fine, then we'll hear
22 from you when you show us those two places. However, his testimony is
23 that what is called "Borje" on the map is what they call "Borovi" because
24 there are lots of pine trees there.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will clear this up
1 with the witness in my cross-examination, then.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
3 MR. WOOD:
4 Q. Mr. Alic --
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I just ask for a point of clarification,
6 because I'm not sure of where all of this is taking us in relation to the
7 indictment. What is the relevance of all these movements during these
9 MR. WOOD: Well, Your Honour, I think that will be clear with a
10 few more questions I'll ask.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: I certainly hope so.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess you may proceed, because Madam Vidovic says
13 she will clear this up with the witness when she cross-examines.
14 MR. WOOD:
15 Q. Getting to the Judge's question, then, Mr. Alic. Did you engage
16 in any other combat operations in this area during the time you were with
17 the El Mujahed Detachment?
18 A. The El Mujahed Detachment was set up later, and it was given this
19 designation. Before that, it was just called "The Arabs," and people
20 would say, "He's gone to join the Arabs." That's what the people would
21 say. That's what the group was called; and then the El Mujahed Detachment
22 was established, but this was later on. Yeah. We had -- we had such
23 actions. We called them --
24 Q. If I could interrupt, sir. After this operation, what was the
25 status of the Bosnian Croats in this area?
1 A. Well, there were no Croats left there. They had been expelled.
2 Q. Was the HVO defeated in this operation?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And were there any other military operations that you participated
5 in after this time? In this area? I'm sorry.
6 A. In this area, specifically, there was no line there, so there was
7 no combat. This area had been cleaned up, and I can't see what other
8 kinds of actions would be -- operations would be required.
9 Q. And, again, this operation took place in early June 1993?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, getting back to the map, sir. I know I keep asking this
12 question, but I want to try and make sure the record is clear, so that
13 when we're looking at this later, we can see from the transcript, and
14 looking at your map, exactly what route you took.
15 So if you could, please, look at the map and tell the Court what
16 is the order that you followed on your way from Zapode to Radonjici in
17 June 1993. Starting, of course, with Zapode is at number 1, the place
18 where you gathered for the battle is number 2, and then could you tell us,
19 please, where it is you proceed after that by using the numbers?
20 A. We headed out from Zapode. That was in the morning.
21 Q. Zapode is number 1?
22 A. Number 1, yes.
23 Q. And then you proceeded to which position?
24 A. The location marked with "2." It's not -- it doesn't have a name.
25 It's further down from Simulje. And from there, we headed towards
1 Simulje. So those were our lines further below from Simulje.
2 Q. And Simulje is marked number 3?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, I think this is where there might be confusion on the record.
5 Number 5 is where you saw the bodies, you testified; is that right?
6 A. Above Simulje, the bodies were on the line in the trench, just
7 lying there in the trench. As I crossed the line that day that they held,
8 I saw two or three bodies just lying there.
9 Q. And that is at number 5; is that correct?
10 A. I don't know what we marked with number 5. But at the line at the
11 top of Simulje, at the ridge there, that's where the line was and that
12 should be number 5. Now, I don't know what we marked with number 5.
13 Q. And after that, you proceeded to Borje -- well, the position
14 marked number 4 on the map; is that correct?
15 A. Towards Borovi. I keep saying "Borovi," but if Borje and Borovi
16 is the same, then I agree with you. But given it's the same, we headed
17 towards Borovi. It says here "Borje." Now, I can't really tell you if
18 it's one and the same thing.
19 Perhaps there's another location called Borje which is not the
20 same as Borovi, so I always put in this caveat, if that Borje and Borovi
21 are the same. So we headed towards this hill. I don't know whether Borje
22 and Borovi are one in the same thing.
23 Q. This hill is marked number 4. The place where you proceeded next
24 is marked number 4; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. After that, you proceeded to what's been marked number 6; is that
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And what's been marked number 7 is where the rest of your group
5 went, that's Bandol, but you did not go to number 7; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Now, sir, if you could -- the reason I wanted to clear this up is
8 I wonder if you could show us the route you took to go -- to return to
9 Zapode; that is, to show us on the map?
10 A. I can't do it here because I can't do it precisely enough. I went
11 back following their line, which was along the ridge above Simulje. This
12 is where their line was, and we took this slope from this ridge towards
13 Bikosi. We followed in their footsteps, so to speak. We went to Bikosi,
14 and then we went west from there.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say you followed their line, whose line
16 did you follow?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The line that they held.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who are the "they"?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Croats. Croats.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I thought --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I thought the line you showed us that you
23 thought the Croats held ran in an east-west direction, and you were
24 travelling south-north. Going back to Zapode from Radonjici, you travel
25 south-north. But I thought when you indicated the line held by the
1 Croats, if you look at the blue dots on the map that you made, they run in
2 a -- what is that? That is vertical? What is that?
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Horizontal.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Horizontal. In a horizontal line from the west to
5 the east.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I cannot collate what is
7 in my head and what is on the map, because the vision of the terrain that
8 I have in my head. And I'm really very familiar with it, I was born
9 there, I know it inside out. And now I can't find my way around on this
10 map to compare it to what -- the image that I have in my head of the
11 situation on the terrain.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that, sir. Forget about the map.
13 Let's look at the image in your head. The image in your head showed the
14 line that was held by the Croats to be running in a horizontal plane from
15 the west to the east; and according to the image that you are trying to
16 explain to us, going back from Radonjici to Zapode, you go south-north.
17 So you can't follow the line of the Croats because you are going to cross
19 Irrespective of whether this in this area or in The Hague here,
20 you are going to go across that line. You are not following that line,
21 and that's what I'm not understanding. That's why I'm asking you to clear
22 me on that one.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is how I can explain:
24 We were at Radonjici. We pick up Muatez. We went back to Borje. We went
25 back to their lines, so we're going back towards Simulje. So we're not
1 taking the same route that we took on our way there.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You went back to their line. You did not follow
3 their line. That's something different. Thank you very much. Thank you
4 for that clarification.
5 You may proceed, Mr. Wood.
6 MR. WOOD: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. After you returned to Zapode, how long did you remain there?
8 A. We spent the night there; and in the morning, we went back to
9 Radonjici again.
10 Q. And during your time in Zapode, before you returned to Radonjici,
11 did you ever have occasion to leave the camp at all?
12 A. I didn't go out at all. I was there. I didn't go out at all.
13 Q. Do you recall who was in the camp at that time with you, other
14 than Muatez, obviously?
15 A. I remember this Abdu Rahman Yemeni who was interpreting at the
16 prayer, and I remember that he cried at this rite, and that's how I
17 remember him. I was touched by that. There were not many of us there,
18 just a few, at least not in the house where I was, because there were
19 three houses. It's possible that there were some other people in those
20 other houses. But in the house where I was, there weren't that many of
21 us, seven or eight.
22 MR. WOOD: I'd like to have the map captured and admitted into
23 evidence, Your Honour, or tendered.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map on the screen is admitted into evidence.
25 May it please be given an exhibit number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 99.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 MR. WOOD: I see that it's nearly noon. This might be an
4 appropriate time for a break, at least in terms of the flow of the direct
5 examination, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: We're going on until noon, aren't we?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you done with the examination? We're going up
8 to noon.
9 MR. WOOD: Yes. We started at 10.30, and it's been an hour and 15
10 minutes. That's the only reason I bring it up.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. But because of when we took our first break,
12 we will go up to noon. I guess the tapes can take us there. That's
14 MR. WOOD: Then I'll proceed. I'm happy to, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.
16 MR. WOOD:
17 Q. While you were at Zapode, did you see any -- anybody pass by on
18 the road outside going in the direction of Mehurici?
19 A. Well, in that house where I was, there is a wooded area dividing
20 this house from the other one, and I was also inside. So I couldn't
21 really see anything, nor, to tell you the truth, did I pay any attention.
22 People would walk down that road. This is the road that led to Poljanice.
23 Q. I want to ask a quick follow-up question about the group that you
24 were in during the operation itself. Can you tell us the composition of
25 that group? Were you the only person from Bosnia in that group?
1 A. I said that Ramo Fusko was there, and Zuhdija, this friend of
2 mine. There were some others there. It was a long time ago, so I can't
4 Q. Were there any Arabs in your group on that day?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How many?
7 A. Maybe two or three in my group.
8 Q. Sir, I want to also ask you some other questions about other
9 members who were in that area. Did you know a person named Ishak
11 A. Well, perhaps interpreter didn't pronounce the name as you
12 pronounced it. His name is Isak Aganovic, not Ishak.
13 Q. Thank you for that clarification, sir. Was this Aganovic a member
14 of the group you were in? And let me clarify that. Was he at the camp at
15 Zapode at around the same time?
16 A. Well, I can't really make any claims, because I really don't know.
17 We didn't really know each other. Later on, we got acquainted a little
18 bit; but, at that time, I really didn't know him. I didn't socialise with
19 him, so I really don't know.
20 Q. But was he a member of that group, the group that would become the
21 El Mujahed Detachment?
22 A. I know that he was a driver in our detachment. He'd drive us to
23 the line and back, but I really don't know. I can't make any claims.
24 Really, I don't remember.
25 Q. Do you remember any occasions when he drove you to the line?
1 A. Well, he drove us there many times. He drove a Bedford truck. We
2 thought he was a good driver, and we always wanted Isak to drive us
3 because it would take us less time to get home.
4 Q. Was this in 1993 or later?
5 A. I think it was later, because he was not the driver initially. He
6 didn't drive the truck; and then later on, he learned how to do it. He
7 got some training. I think it was in -- when we were on the other side,
8 the Sejdici and Zavidovici.
9 Q. Do you know where Ishak Aganovic, the person you're referring to
10 as Isak Aganovic, is from?
11 A. Well, he's from Mehurici.
12 Q. Sir, did you know a person named Zihnija Sejdic.
13 A. Zihnija Sejdic, yes. He's a relative of mine. I know him very
14 well. I've known him since our childhood. We grew up together.
15 Q. And where is he from, sir?
16 A. He is from Sejdici, so our families are related. And he would
17 often come to our place at Suhi Dol, and I would often visit him at
19 Q. And what municipality is Sejdici in?
20 A. It's just part of Poljanice. That's what it is. Sejdici is part
21 of Poljanice. It's there near Mehurici, a village near Mehurici.
22 Q. This Sejdici, what's his father's name -- I'm sorry, this Zejdic?
23 A. He's dead, Zahid. He's been dead for a long time. His name is
25 Q. And this Sejdic, was he a member of the same unit?
1 A. Yes. I'd see him there. He was there.
2 Q. When did you see him there?
3 A. Well, I can't really say whether this was before the action or
4 after the action. I can't really put a time to it. I would see him
5 there. I think it was mostly after the action, but he was there at any
7 Q. After you left Zapode, sir, where did you go? I'm talking now
8 about the day of the -- about the operation.
9 A. On the day of the operation, that morning, is that what you mean?
10 I said. I already said.
11 Q. You testified that you came -- you accompanied Muatez from
12 Radonjici to Zapode. You stayed overnight in Zapode. Where did you go
13 after that?
14 A. Yes. Afterwards, I went back to Radonjici again. So in the
15 morning, a group of us - our emir was Muhamed Basic. That's why we called
16 him emir; it's like a commander - a group of maybe five or six of us who
17 were there, he took us to Radonjici. And we spent seven or eight days up
18 there in Radonjici. We didn't move from there at all.
19 Q. What route did you take to go from Zapode to Radonjici on that
20 morning, the morning after the operation?
21 A. We took the same --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. You keep referring to the morning after
23 the operation. I'm not quite sure I'm following you.
24 MR. WOOD: The witness testified that the operation -- the day of
25 the operation, he ended in Radonjici, and then he went back to Zapode with
1 Muatez; and then he testified that he stayed overnight in Zapode, and
2 after that, returned to Radonjici.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: So this is the following day?
4 MR. WOOD: The following day, yes. That's how I understood his
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Wood, for that clarification.
7 MR. WOOD:
8 Q. And what route did you take to get back to Radonjici the day after
9 the operation?
10 A. We took the same route that we used during the action. We went to
11 Simulje, and then on to Radonjici and to Borovi, and then we went down to
13 Q. And that route did not take you to Bikosi; is that correct?
14 A. Not that morning.
15 MR. WOOD: I see it is 11.56. This is not a bad time for me to
16 end, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're done with your --
18 MR. WOOD: Well, I have a few more questions. I'll consult with
19 my colleagues, of course, but I would like to wrap up very quickly, yes.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, why don't you wrap up now, actually, so that
21 we can finish your examination-in-chief before the break. And could I
22 remind you also that as far as I can see, you had set aside one hour for
23 examination-in-chief of this witness, and so far we have already spent an
24 hour and a half.
25 MR. WOOD: Yes, Your Honour, and I'm mindful of that.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: I wouldn't want to see you run out of time.
2 MR. WOOD: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 If I could have the witness shown Exhibit 67, please.
4 Q. If I could draw your attention on that list, sir, to number 72, if
5 we could scroll forward.
6 Do you see number 72, sir?
7 A. Yes, I see that.
8 Q. Is this the person you were speaking of before, this Sejdic?
9 A. Zihnija Sejdic. I think it is. 9th of January, 1970. I know
10 that he was born in 1970.
11 MR. WOOD: Thank you.
12 Your Honour, I think at this time the Prosecution has no further
13 questions for this witness.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Wood.
15 This may then be an appropriate moment to take a break. We'll
16 come back at half past 12.00. Thank you very much.
17 Court is adjourned.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
21 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:
22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Alic. My name is Vasvija Vidovic, and I will be
23 cross-examining you on behalf of General Rasim Delic's Defence.
24 Very often, you'll be in a position to answer my question by
25 either saying "yes" or "no." If either I or the Trial Chamber do not seek
1 additional clarification, for the sake of saving time, I would kindly ask
2 you by to reply by saying "yes" or "no" whenever possible. Did you
3 understand me?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. First of all, I would like to ask you this: You served in the
6 former JNA, didn't you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You served from 1979 for a year?
9 A. From March.
10 Q. From March 1989 onwards?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. When the war started, you joined the Territorial
13 Defence of Travnik; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. As a matter of fact, you joined a local unit, a village unit of
16 the Territorial Defence; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You've also explained that after that, you joined the 306th
19 Brigade; is that correct?
20 A. I did not join them. Actually, yes, I was a member of the 306th
22 Q. Thank you. You have mentioned that Mr. Sinan Begovic was the
23 leader of the so-called anti-armour company that you belonged to?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The anti-armour company was just a name; is that correct?
1 A. It was just its formation. We did not have any anti-armour tools
2 or devices. However, as part of those brigades, that had to exist on
3 paper. Such a company had to exist on paper. There was a company, it had
4 some men, but we did not have any things to use to fight against armoured
5 vehicles or tanks.
6 Q. In other words, on paper, sometimes you would find things that did
7 not reflect the reality on the ground?
8 A. Yes, that's correct. The army existed as an organised force on TV
9 just to boost the morale. When it came to the reality, the army looked
10 more like village units. Nobody obeyed anybody. There was no authority.
11 It was not a normal, organised military. You had to be a member, because
12 if you refused, the police would be after you.
13 Q. I'll go back to the question of the police. Generally speaking,
14 you were not well armed, were you?
15 A. We were very badly armed. We had some hunting rifles in the
16 village, here and there somebody had a pistol. And in our village, there
17 was a military man who had brought two automatic rifles from the army, and
18 that's all we had. When we manned the line, we had some weapons. The
19 weapons were always at the dugout. The shifts would change, the arms
20 would stay there, because people did not have their own weapons. They had
21 to use whatever was available.
22 Q. Very well. Thank you. At one point in testifying, you said that
23 you did not even remember who the commander of the 306th Brigade was.
24 Would you agree with me -- would you accept if I told you that, at that
25 time, you didn't even know who the brigade commander was? Would you
1 accept that?
2 A. I suppose so, because I really didn't know. If I'd known then,
3 maybe I would know now. I suppose I would know now.
4 Q. Thank you. Do you agree with me that towards the end of April
5 1993, the Croatian Defence Council blocked the area by setting up
6 check-points on all major roads?
7 A. The goal of the operation that we discussed a while ago was to
8 launch a counter-attack against the Croats who had already attacked and
9 killed about eight people, eight of our people in Bukovica. They killed
10 eight and they took away the others.
11 We had to launch an operation in that area. Donje Maline was
12 encircled. The road leading to Zenica from our part did not function. We
13 were under a total blockade. There was just one passible road to Serici
14 and almost to Zenica. We could not go to Travnik. We could not go to
15 Zenica. We could not go to Maline. We had no communication with Donje
16 Maline. We could not go on that road. It was not possible. It was only
17 for horse and carts.
18 Q. Let's clarify one thing. At this moment, we are discussing the
19 time when you were a member of the 306th Brigade. Do you understand that?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Parts of the brigade, for the reasons you've just specified, could
23 not communicate with each other; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Also, part of the brigade could not communicate with the command?
1 Would you know that at all?
2 A. Yes, that's correct. We could not communicate, or the
3 communication was rather difficult. All of these hamlets, all of these
4 villages, were separated by various check-points. There were obstacles,
5 and it was not possible to go from one village to another. We could not
6 communicate. We were all under our separate blockade. The blockade was
7 not total, because there was one passable road leading towards Zenica, but
8 that was all.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
10 Your Honours, could I now show a document to the witness. This is
11 D68. For the record, this is a document issued by the Bosnian Krajina RG,
12 Strictly Confidential 09/48-2, dated 27 April [Realtime transcript read in
13 error "February"], 1993. The title is "Regular Combat Rate Fought."
14 Q. Witness, I'm showing you this document because there are villages
15 mentioned in it. I'm going to quote a segment of that document to you.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to quote the
17 second half of this very short document.
18 Q. The document says: "Minor shooting was heard above Suhi Dol and
19 Zolote, of which HVO members were informed at a joint meeting. Reports
20 from the village of Ricice say that HVO members did not allow villagers to
21 work in the fields."
22 Suhi Dol is actually the place where you resided, where you
23 fought, at the time the document was drafted towards the end of in April
24 of 1993; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Members of the HVO did not allow civilian population to move
2 about; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. They did not allow them to work in the field?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. Although, at the time, there were no open conflicts between the
7 two; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleague is
10 drawing my attention to the fact that this is a document dating from
11 February 1993, but actually this is a document that was drafted on the
12 27th of April, 1993.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And where does February 1993 come from, then?
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know. I
15 suppose this must be an interpretation error. I really don't know where
16 the month of February came from. I have quoted the date on the document,
17 which is the 27th of April, 1993, so I would put it down to
18 misinterpretation. In the transcript, you can see that mistake. The
19 transcript does not reflect my words, and it also doesn't reflect the date
20 indicated in the document.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Where in the --
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, line 18, line 19 of
23 the LiveNote.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, that's when you drew our attention to that.
25 You said: "Your Honours, my colleague is drawing my attention to the fact
1 that this is a document dating from February 1993, and," and I'm saying
2 where does it talk of February 1993 before this point?
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is on the page at
4 the moment when I was quoting from the document somewhat earlier in the
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: At page 63, line 24, you said: "Your Honours, I'm
7 going to quote the second half."
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And then you say: "the shooting was here above Suhi
10 Dol and Zolote."
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, lines 18 and 19 of
12 the LiveNote show a wrong date of the document. Page 63 of the LiveNote.
13 I wanted to correct that mistake. I wanted to put it right and say that
14 the date is 27 April 1993. That is the date when the document was
16 Your Honours, I apologise. The date of the document is 27 April
17 1993, and this is what should be recorded in the transcript. The error in
18 the transcript is on page 63, lines 18 and 19.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, madam. It will be noted as
20 27th April 1993.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. In your evidence, you spoke about joining a group of Arabs
23 sometime in June 1993; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you also said that, at that time, you didn't need any kind of
1 approval to do so?
2 A. Well, nobody asked me for anything, and I didn't ask anyone
3 anything. I just left.
4 Q. Thank you. That's the way I understood it. If I were to put it
5 to you that the level of organisation in the army in Central Bosnia at
6 that time was at a very low level, you would agree with me?
7 A. Well, in my evidence, I already said that part of my motive for
8 going to join the Arabs was because there was no organisation, nobody
9 obeyed anyone, there was no authority, so this was an incentive for me to
10 go there.
11 Q. Thank you. So the way I understand it, fighters left the units
12 whenever they felt like it. Did I understand you correctly?
13 A. Yes, but you had to be somewhere, but you could go wherever you
15 Q. Fine, fine. I will now go back to the 306th Brigade. The 306th
16 Brigade was disorganized to such an extent that whole groups of fighters
17 would leave its ranks?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. People left the lines as they went to forage for food because
20 there wasn't enough food to go around?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Let me now go back to the military police in the 306th Brigade.
23 Would you agree with me that the military police were so few that they
24 couldn't do anything about those transfers?
25 A. Well, they -- they couldn't do anything, that's for sure.
1 Q. And the few military police that were there, it is true that they
2 did not have the weapons and the equipment that would enable them to do
3 their job?
4 A. Well, yes, of course. Well, the police was there, according to
5 the establishment, but they didn't really perform their duties. Only if
6 somebody would really try to shirk his duties and would not be there for
7 two months, they would go and search for that person.
8 Q. Thank you. Generally speaking, the spring and the summer of 1993,
9 that was a time of general chaos in Central Bosnia; am I right?
10 A. Yes, it was really, really great chaos. People went hungry. There
11 was uncertainty. We were surrounded on all sides, and there was panic
12 among the people, the sense of insecurity.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I move on to
14 my next question, could we please get an exhibit number for this document
15 that I've just discussed with the witness?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Document D68 is admitted into evidence. May it
17 please be given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 100.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Now I would like to go back to the situation in Central Bosnia at
22 the time when you were in the 306th. You described to us this lack of
23 organisation in very vivid terms. Now, if I were to put it to you that
24 because of this disorganization, there were some internal conflicts,
25 incidents, involving the units of the army at that time, and that this was
1 due to disorganization, there were misunderstandings in which those units
2 clashed by mistake?
3 A. Yes, yes, that's true. I know about one such case. In this
4 action, members of one of our units killed one of our members because they
5 were not familiar with the terrain, those units and those operations were
6 not prepared properly, and this is -- the result was this.
7 Q. So you tell us "our units." By that you mean the 306th or what?
8 A. The 306th and the other units that were there, that participated
9 in this action, the people from Travnik that were heading towards
10 Bukovica, they clashed.
11 Q. And because of this lack of organisation, one man was killed and
12 another was wounded; am I right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Let me now go back to the foreign fighters. You told us that you
15 had joined a group of Arabs that did not consist of too many members?
16 A. Yes, those who existed there at Zapode.
17 Q. Now I would like to ask you some questions relating to this group.
18 Sir, could you please explain to the Chamber whether this was the only
19 group of Arabs there in the field or were there some other groups that had
20 nothing to do with this group whatsoever?
21 A. Yes, there were several groups, not just one. For instance, in
22 Gluha Bukovica, which is again the same area, our area, a group of Arabs
23 were stationed there, they were called the Zubeir's group, and there was
24 another group that took part with us in this operation at Radonjici. I
25 saw those lads from the Turkish guerrilla. There was another group, Abu
1 Ubeidah's group, I knew about them too. They also gathered those people
2 of that kind. They were acting independently, it was a war. It was like
3 the wild west: Might had right.
4 Q. Thank you, Witness. I would like to ask you something in relation
5 to this. These other groups you mentioned, Abu Ubeidah, or Ubeid, the
6 Turkish guerrilla. It is true, is it not, that these people never joined
7 the El Mujahed Detachment; am I right?
8 A. Yes. They had their own views that did not correspond to those in
9 El Mujahed, because we, in the detachment, we obeyed discipline. People
10 obeyed the commands. And those who were not willing to do so, they would
11 not be able to exist there. They either would not have lasted long or
12 they wouldn't have joined the detachment because of that situation.
13 Q. You knew the situation and the terrain --
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a moment. Page
15 69, line 12 and 13, the witness said "Abu Ubeid" I would like this name
16 to be entered into the transcript properly.
17 You mentioned Abu Ubeid, Witness?
18 A. Yes. He was up there at Buca, at Bijelo Brdo.
19 Q. Did you see him as a member of the Arab group that you joined?
20 A. No, never. Had those people insisted on it, I would not have
21 joined them ever.
22 Q. You were familiar with the terrain, were you not? Those other
23 groups, do you know whether anyone controlled them?
24 A. No. They could not be controlled. As I explained just a while
25 ago, those who were more persistent, who were willing to cause worse
1 incidents, they ruled. Nobody could fight them. Nobody could even
2 attempt to put them under any control. Nobody dared.
3 Q. When you say "nobody," I take it that you refer to the units of
4 the BH Army?
5 A. Yes, yes. Definitely. They wouldn't even dare to look at them,
6 let alone anything else.
7 Q. I would like to ask you one more question: Did you hear about the
8 camp at Bistricak?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you hear there was an Iranian training centre in Bosnia?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If somebody were to say that those camps had anything to do with
13 the El Mujahed Detachment, they would not be right?
14 A. Yes. They would not be right, 100 per cent sure. The detachment
15 was a disciplined unit. Everybody knew how things are to be done, and
16 nobody wanted to commit any atrocities or any crimes. That would not be
17 acceptable to human beings.
18 Q. In your evidence, you were asked about your reasons, why you
19 joined this group of Arabs, and I would like to ask you some questions
20 about that, too.
21 Do you agree that the people who lived there, the non-Serb
22 population, in particular the Muslim population in Central Bosnia at the
23 time that we're talking about, so it's 1992 and 1993, were in an extremely
24 difficult situation in terms of economy?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. They fought for their barest survival?
2 A. Yes, yes. Exactly. And in that sense, precisely, because nothing
3 could reach us from the outside world. People really went hungry. And
4 then in the spring, people would sow some wheat, and there was some mills,
5 water mills up there, where you could make flour, because that was the
6 only -- the only source of sustenance for us.
7 Q. Fine. You will agree with me that people were in a very difficult
8 psychological situation because of the horrors that happened in the field,
9 shelling, people getting killed?
10 A. Yes. We were surrounded by both the Serbs and Croats, and shells
11 could land -- attacks to come from any side; from Vlasic and from the
12 other side, too.
13 Q. You saw hundreds of thousands of refugees that flooded Travnik,
14 coming in from Bosnian Krajina and Eastern Bosnia; am I right?
15 A. Yes, Jajce.
16 Q. The reason why I am asking you this is because I want to find out
17 whether I am correct when I say that in the situation, the people were
18 very prone to turning to religion?
19 A. Yes. Well, that seemed like the only way out.
20 Q. And you said, in fact, that you joined them for this reason?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And many young Bosnians did that, too, precisely for this reason?
23 A. Yes. Well, yes.
24 Q. The detachment offered religious education, and that is why the
25 Muslim population - and you told us about their psychological state -
1 found it easy to accept them?
2 A. Yes, yes. Precisely.
3 Q. The detachment offered food for the family?
4 A. Yes, yes. And, for instance, there was no electricity. I
5 remember on one occasion I asked Abu Haris to get me three or four litres
6 of oil, of diesel. I asked for a litres. He gave me more so that we
7 could use it to burn in a lamp.
8 Q. In your evidence today, you said that when you joined this
9 detachment, or rather, group of Arabs, because you drew this distinction
10 between the period before August and after August; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now I'm asking you about this period where you actually joined
13 this group. You told us that you did not consider that you had left the
14 army ranks, and you clarified what you meant by that.
15 And now I would like to ask you the following question: I
16 conclude that you said this because you consider that you fought the same
17 enemy, that you protected your villages. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes, yes. I was a patriot from Day 1; and, at that time, it was
19 considered that if you joined them, this was like a high-risk unit. They
20 placed more emphasis on fighting, on combat. You were considered to be a
21 better soldier than the ones that were in the 306th.
22 Q. Fine. Fine. But after you left the 306th Brigade, it is true
23 that you did not receive any orders from the brigade during your time when
24 you were with this group of Arabs?
25 A. Yes. I didn't have any contacts with them at all anymore.
1 Q. And in this group where you were, together with the Arabs, you did
2 not get any orders from any other unit, the local unit of the Bosnian and
3 Herzegovina Army?
4 A. Yes. I did not receive any such orders.
5 Q. You described an engagement today, and I don't know if I
6 understood you correctly. This was a fight in which you were engaged
7 together with this group of Arabs?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. It is true, at least according to what you know, that you were not
10 summoned to take part in this fight by the 306th Brigade?
11 A. Well, no suggestion was made to that effect from the 306th. I
12 went there in completely different channels that had nothing to do with
14 Q. I would now like to ask you something else.
15 It would be fair to say that you heard shooting and you simply
16 joined in the fighting; would that be true? I don't mean you, personally.
17 I mean your group.
18 A. Well, you could say that. You could describe it that way, because
19 there were no links with anyone, no arrangements -- prior arrangements
20 were made. I learned that we would have -- that we would go into action
21 on the eve of the action itself.
22 Q. So I understood that you wanted to say that you learned about the
23 battle just before it actually happened, that it was not your impression
24 that there were no prior arrangements made. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, of course. When we went into action later, we would prepare
1 for at least a month. We would do reconnaissance. This was a spontaneous
2 thing, and I simply joined in; although, this was my first action, and I
3 really didn't do anything to prove my valour. I was a little bit afraid.
4 Q. Thank you. And you explained to us about this event in June, and
5 you explained things to us on the map, D99. And I would just like to
6 clarify one minor issue here. You described and you mentioned Borovi.
7 Am I right that Borovi is a plateau in the mountains where there
8 are tall pine trees?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. There are no habitations there?
11 A. Yes. Yeah, no habitations, just the pinewood.
12 Q. Thank you very much. The Prosecutor has also asked you about Isak
13 Aganovic. You don't know whether he was present during events in June in
14 the detachment? Did he participate in the operation?
15 A. I said I don't know, and I also said that I didn't even know him
16 at the time. I've already said that.
17 Q. Thank you very much. I just wanted to make sure. And now I'm
18 going to ask you a few questions relative to the detachment, itself.
19 Is it true that the detachment, between August 1993 and the period
20 thereafter, had a completely different structure and organisation than
21 some other units [as interpreted] of the BiH Army; for example, the one
22 that you had belonged to, the 306th?
23 A. Yes, that's a fact.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
25 correct something in the LiveNote. Page 76, pages [as interpreted] 1 and
1 2, I would like to correct myself and say that it had a completely
2 different structure and organisation than the units of the army.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are still on page 75. We're not on page 76
4 yet. Can you tell us exactly what it is you're correcting? The
5 transcript says you're correcting page 76, and we're still on page 75.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know how. I
7 have page 76 before me. Let me just consult with my case manager to be
8 absolutely sure, and then I'll come back to you.
9 Your Honours, I hope that you have also looked at that. It seems
10 that my transcript is faster than yours. In any case, I would like to
11 correct -- or I have indeed corrected, and that has already been recorded
12 in the transcript.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but what is the correction? I would like to
14 be with you.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was speaking about
16 the difference between the detachment and the units of the BiH Army, and
17 the way it was recorded was "between the detachment and another unit of
18 the BiH Army," which is not what I said.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It didn't say "another," it says "and other units
20 of the BiH Army." That's what it says here.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And some other units. I didn't say
22 "some other units." I tried to make a distinction between the BiH Army
23 and the detachment. This would imply that I have put the detachment in
24 the same context with the army.
25 But, Your Honours, in any case, I don't think that this is so
1 important, and I don't wish to spend any more time on it. I don't want to
2 dwell upon it. I would like to remove my remark and move on, if I may.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. We were talking about the organisation of the detachment, Witness.
6 I asked you this: Did your detachment have an organisation similar to the
7 306th Brigade that you had been a member of, or was the organisation
9 A. In the detachment, we had "surmejs" [phoen], that's what we called
10 them. The leader of the group was an emir. Nobody had ranks. There were
11 no ranks. The man, Muatez, did not have a rank. He was just an emir.
12 That's all he was. Nobody had any ranks. There were no platoons or other
13 such units. There were just groups that bore the leader's name. People
14 were fighting in groups, so the organisation was certainly not the same as
15 it was in the army.
16 Q. It is true, is it not, that the detachment had a shura; am I
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How would you describe a shura? What was a shura? Can you
20 explain for the Trial Chamber what shura was? Just slowly, please. Slow
21 down and try to do it carefully and slowly. I apologise for interrupting.
22 A. A shura was made up of several prominent leaders who were
23 decision-makers. They would decide on things; for example, on the further
24 course of actions. If somebody had a proposal, they would decide whether
25 the proposal would be acted upon or not. Some of our men made up our
2 Q. And now I would like to ask you this: You probably did not attend
3 the meetings of the shura, but I believe that you knew one thing. And
4 would you agree with me when I say that decisions made by the shura were
5 binding upon the detachment?
6 A. No. I didn't attend any of the meetings, really, but I know that
7 the decisions that were passed by the shura had to be implemented.
8 Whatever proposals had been put forth, if the shura did not make a
9 decision to that effect, we just did not have to do it. Nobody could
10 issue any orders to the detachment if the shura had not approved those
12 Q. Thank you very much for your explanation, Witness. You were a
13 member of the BiH Army for a while, and you know how it functioned. Would
14 you agree with me that something like a shura did not exist in the BH
16 A. Of course, I agree with you. There was no such thing.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.
18 Your Honours, I would just have a few more questions for this
19 witness about some documents that the Prosecutor used on chief. I would
20 kindly ask the witness to look at an excerpt from Exhibit 78, which is
21 PT2949. Can the witness be shown ERN pages 0365-5062 and 0365-5063.
22 Your Honours, since these pages did not have a translation, we
23 appended our translation to these pages. We were not sure that this would
24 be in the system. I believe that you have these pages in front of you as
25 a hard copy. We have done it electronically, and I believe that we can
1 already see it in e-court as D93.
2 And now I would like the witness to be shown page 0365-5062. Thank
3 you. If possible, could you please blow up the first part of the left
4 side of the document depicting a name.
5 Q. Witness, do you agree with me that these are your identification
6 data: Alic, Saban, and the year of birth?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
9 Your Honours, I would like the witness to be shown page
10 0365-5063. 0365-5063 is the ERN number of the page. Thank you very much.
11 Again, I would like the court usher to do exactly the same as he
12 did before, i.e., to blow up - thank you very much - the first part of
13 that page. Very well. Thank you.
14 Q. Witness, could you please look at the first part of this page, and
15 I am drawing your attention to where it says the military unit, "VJP," and
16 the date, 1st of June, 1993; and below that, you have "VJ" something,
17 unclear. You have the 4th of April, 1992, and a few more on the same
18 page. The first one is legible, and it reads the 1st of June, 1993. Can
19 you see all that?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we please have the English version, too.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes.
22 Q. Can you see all that?
23 A. [No Interpretation]
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to ask the
25 usher to blow up the lower portion of the same document, both the English
1 and the Bosnian versions, please. Can you blow up the part with the stamp
2 and the date next to the stamp. Can you please blow up that portion.
3 Thank you very much.
4 Q. Witness, will you agree with me that this document bears the
5 following date: 7 March 1989. Do you agree?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you see the stamp?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. I would like to be with you. Where is this
9 date of 1989; 7 March 1989?
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In the lower bottom.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Thank you.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Witness, please, you've seen that, and now can you see that there
14 is a stamp of the Military Post 7719? Please pay attention to the stamp
15 for a moment.
16 A. Yes, I can see that.
17 Q. Do you agree with me that the coat of arms is not a coat of arms
18 that was used by the BiH Army during the war; do you agree?
19 A. This document is from the other army in the former Yugoslavia in
20 the JNA, and this stamp hails from Bor. I was awarded some days off, and
21 I believe that this is the certificate proving that.
22 Q. Do you agree with me, then, that this document originated much
23 before the war, at least two or three years before the beginning of war;
24 is that correct?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now, Your Honours, I would like
2 to ask the usher to blow up the lower portion, the right side of this
3 document. Can you go back a bit more to the right to show the date.
4 Q. Can you see the date, 15 January 1986, here?
5 A. [No Interpretation]
6 Q. Do you agree that the first part of the document bears the date 15
7 January 1986? Can you see that? Please look at the document.
8 A. Yes, I can see that.
9 Q. Do you agree that it is even much earlier than you actually
10 started serving in the army?
11 A. That's the time I had still not completed with my regular
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Your Honours, I have no further questions relative to this
15 question. Thank you.
16 And now can these two pages, with their translation, be given an
17 exhibit number, please.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May those two pages, with their translation, please
19 be given an exhibit number. They are admitted into evidence.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit 101.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will have just a
23 couple more questions about Exhibit 67. Can we bring Exhibit 67 on the
24 screen, the first page thereof? Thank you. Can we also have its English
25 translation at the same time? Thank you very much.
1 Q. Witness, please look carefully at the document, and do you agree
2 that it says "Receipt" on this document? And also could you please look
3 at the columns and the titles. Does it say "Number,""Quantity," "Title,"
4 "Price," "Amount," and the figures are 1 and 6: "Overview of the El
5 Mujahedin Detachment, photocopy"?
6 Do you agree that this is what it reads? Witness, I am sure that
7 you had a plenty of opportunity to purchase things in our country?
8 A. I am a tradesman by trade.
9 Q. So you are the right person to explain this document. Do you
10 agree that this document actually looks like a receipt that was issued by
11 a warehouse; am I right?
12 A. Yes, you're right, but there is something else to it.
13 Q. What did you say?
14 A. This is even worse than that. This is not a warehouse. I really
15 don't know what that is.
16 Q. Let me take you back to your detachment in August 1993.
17 Witness, please, is it true that the Arabs, i.e., the detachment,
18 had very good equipment, that they even had PCs; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. They had typewriters?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Among the Muslim members of the detachment, there were those who
23 could use those typewriters?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you ever accept, as a member of the detachment, that such
1 papers were used for receipts in your detachment?
2 A. I'm sure that they were not. I'm positive.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
4 I have no further questions for this witness.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
6 Mr. Wood.
7 MR. WOOD: Thank you, Your Honour. Just a few questions to
8 clarify some things on the record.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Wood:
10 Q. Mr. Alic, you mentioned at page 62, line 18, that Donje Maline had
11 been surrounded. Could you explain to the Court, what is the national or
12 ethnic composition of the majority of people in Donje Maline?
13 A. Well, there's Donje Maline and Gornje Maline. Donje Maline are
14 all Muslims; and in Gornje Maline, they're all Croats.
15 Q. It might also be helpful for the benefit of the Trial Chamber to
16 explain what does the word "Donje" before "Maline" mean?
17 A. So, if you're going from the Bila River, you go up towards Maline.
18 First you get to Donje, Lower Maline, and then you go to Gornje, Upper
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Alic. I want to ask you also on page 68, line 13,
21 you mentioned that there was an action that resulted in what is sometimes
22 called "friendly fire" shootings; that is, somebody from your unit or
23 somebody from the ABiH shot another person from the ABiH accidentally?
24 A. Yes, that's what happened.
25 Q. The transcript wasn't clear. I'd like to clarify. When did that
2 A. It happened during this action, the action. This group, this
3 unit, the Travnik unit, they were moving in to assist, to give support at
4 Bukovica; and as they linked up with the 306th, they were not in touch.
5 And there had been no prior arrangements made, so shooting ensued and one
6 of -- one of their soldiers was killed and another one was wounded.
7 Q. What month was that?
8 A. Well, it was on that day, the 8th of June. That was on that very
10 Q. And just to be clear, on the 8th of June is the day that the
11 operation happened that you talked about in your direct examination?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that was the 8th of June of what year?
14 A. 1993.
15 Q. Defence asked you some questions about other groups of foreigners
16 in the area, and she mentioned some names. I'd like to ask you, Witness,
17 were any of these other groups of foreigners ever in the Zapode camp along
18 with you and your colleagues?
19 A. No. As far as I know, no.
20 Q. I'd also like to clarify. You just mentioned that it was on June
21 8th, 1993 that this action occurred. Defence indicated that you had
22 joined in June 1993. I just want to be clear. What was the date that you
23 joined the Arabs in Mehurici?
24 A. The 1st of June, the 1st.
25 Q. And during this operation, did you have command over anybody in
1 the unit?
2 A. No, absolutely not.
3 Q. Now, Witness, I'd like to ask you a few questions about what now
4 has become marked Exhibit 101. These dates --
5 MR. WOOD: And it might be helpful to pull this up now in e-court.
6 This is 03655062, which is the first of two pages of Exhibit 101.
7 Q. There are some dates on the left-hand side of that document, and
8 places. It says: "Kikinda, joined 16/3/1988; and then Bor, 7/12/1988."
9 What do these dates correspond with, and these places, Mr. Alic?
10 A. That means when I went to the army of the former Yugoslavia, I
11 spent six months in Kikinda and then I was transferred to Bor. So I spent
12 the other second half, the second six months, in Bor, which is in Serbia.
13 Q. On the next page, 5063, which would be the right-hand side of page
14 2 of Exhibit 101, which is ERN 0365-5063, there's a date that says
15 "15/1/1986." I wonder, Witness, could you tell the Court how soon before
16 15/1/1986 you turned 17?
17 A. I didn't understand your question.
18 Q. What is your birthday, sir?
19 A. 11th of December, 1969.
20 Q. In the former Yugoslavia, military service was compulsory; is that
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, what were your military obligations after you left the JNA in
24 the former Yugoslavia?
25 A. I never had any contacts with them whatsoever. As regards the
1 military service, I was not called up to join the reserves. They would
2 sometimes issue those call-up papers for some exercises, but I never went
3 there at any point in time.
4 Q. There was a thing in the former Yugoslavia called "The Territorial
5 Defence," just as there was in the ABiH or the Republic of Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina; isn't that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And do you know, Witness, who was it that maintained the
9 Territorial Defence in the former Yugoslavia? Was it the federal
10 government or the republics?
11 A. I don't know exactly, but I think it was all done at the level of
12 the federal state, not at the level of the republics.
13 Q. So this document that's marked Exhibit 101, it has information
14 that corresponds with your JNA service?
15 A. Yes, that's what it says here.
16 Q. And it has information that corresponds accurately with your
17 service in the Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. WOOD: Just one moment, Your Honour.
20 The Prosecution has nothing further at this time, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Wood.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a few questions to ask.
25 This morning, during the examination, you said the soldiers had no
1 discipline, no order, and the brigade was very much disorganized. And one
2 of the reasons, besides religious reasons, the other reason for which you
3 abandoned this brigade and joined the El Mujahedin Unit was this
5 You also said that in the El Mujahedin Detachment, you were the
6 best of soldiers. Do you remember what you said about this?
7 A. I said that this was the general view among the locals. They
8 considered those who were in the detachment to be better soldiers, in
9 terms of their courage.
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you. And the best
11 soldiers of what army, of which army? Could you tell us?
12 A. Well, I don't know how -- what picture was painted to you of this
13 army. Perhaps you think of the US Marines when you talk about the army,
14 but this was not the case.
15 The army consisted of people wearing civilian clothes or uniforms
16 that were plundered from the warehouses, depots of the former army. And
17 they wore the same kind of pants, the same kind of jackets, and they would
18 put just some new insignia. This was not an army that was established,
19 equipped. It wasn't the case that everybody knew what to do. It looked
20 like a peasant uprising of some sort.
21 If you come under attack, you have to go out, you have to fight.
22 If not, they will come to your home and they will kill you there.
23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Therefore, these best soldiers
24 were not part of an army; is that what you mean?
25 A. What do you mean?
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You were speaking about soldiers.
2 Therefore, soldiers are part of an army, and you said that you were in the
3 El Mujahed Detachment of the best soldiers. After that, you explained to
4 us that those soldiers were not part of an army, if I understood you
5 rightly. Did I understand you well?
6 A. Well, the establishment existed on paper, but we could not talk
7 about a real army. You have everything on paper; platoons, companies, and
8 so on. This was copied from the former army. But on the field, it just
9 didn't exist the way it was was on paper; and if you told a soldier to do
10 this, he could just not obey you. And what means did you have to force
11 him to obey you? No, none whatsoever.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Perhaps I haven't
13 been very clear. I'm now speaking about your participation to the El
14 Mujahedin Detachment. And it is on this score you said, by making
15 comparison with the soldiers of the 306th Brigade, you said that "in this
16 detachment you were the best soldiers." And when you were part of this
17 detachment, a member of this detachment, you were a soldier of which army?
18 This is what I'm asking.
19 A. I said that the locals thought that if you joined the Arabs, they
20 considered you to be the best soldier. I didn't know what other word to
21 use, so I used the word "soldier." I didn't know how to define this. The
22 locals thought, "Look, he's brave. He dared to go there," because it was
23 riskier if you joined their group. More people got killed there. But the
24 army, I am not trying to put anyone down here.
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
1 Another small point. In this detachment, did you have a radio or
2 a telephone to communicate with other combat units or with command, both,
3 of any kind?
4 A. As far as I know, nobody had any radio stations or communicated in
5 this way with anyone.
6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge.
8 We obviously have gone past the time. We'll have to adjourn to
9 tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning at Courtroom I.
10 Court adjourned.
11 THE INTERPRETER: For the English transcript, the interpreter
12 requests that the word "counter-exam" or "counter-examination" be changed
13 into "cross-examination." Thank you so much.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 17th day of
16 July, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.