Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 855

1 Thursday, 19th July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, everybody.

7 Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,

9 everybody in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-83-T, the

10 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 Appearances for today. Prosecution.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Good morning, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around

15 the courtroom. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, Aditya Menon, and our

16 case manager, Alma Imamovic.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 For the Defence.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

20 morning to my colleagues in the courtroom. My name is Vasvija Vidovic,

21 and together with Mr. Nicholas Robson, I represent General Delic.

22 Together with us are our legal assistants, Lana Deljkic and Asja Zujo.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 Yes, Madam. Can I just warn the witness first?

25 Witness, good morning to you, too. Do you feel better today?

Page 856

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I feel better.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 You may be aware of it, but I must warn you, as it is my duty,

4 that you are bound still by the declaration you made at the beginning of

5 your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but

6 the truth. Okay?

7 Thank you very much.

8 Madam Vidovic.

9 WITNESS: PW-2 [Resumed]

10 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

11 Q. Good morning, Witness.

12 Yesterday we discussed some documents of the 7th Muslim Brigade,

13 and I would like us to continue today.

14 I will be clarifying some concepts later on. I believe that the

15 witness might assist us here, some concepts that we discussed yesterday.

16 I would like to show --

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please look at

18 D47. Thank you. Could we perhaps move the document slightly to the left.

19 Yes. Thank you.

20 Q. The date on this document is the 23rd of December, 1993. Witness,

21 let me read just a very small excerpt from this document that relates to

22 criminal activities of Sabahet Isakovic, and it says in this document:

23 "Today, on the 16th of July, 1993, according to the information from

24 several sources, he probably hid the gun belonging to a foreign citizen

25 who had attempted to assassinate Emir Mahmut Efendija Karalic.

Page 857

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm reading from the

2 beginning of the 2nd paragraph in this document.

3 Q. Witness, I would like to ask you, first of all, do you know the

4 Sabahet Isakovic? Have you heard of this person at all?

5 A. It's possible that I have.

6 Q. But you're not sure?

7 A. I'm not sure.

8 Q. The document tells us that a foreign national tried to assassinate

9 Emir Mahmut Efendija Karalic. Did you know about this incident? Have you

10 heard about it at all?

11 A. I know about an incident in which two foreign nationals allegedly

12 tried to assassinate Karalic, and both were killed by the military police.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like this

15 document to be given an exhibit number.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

17 please be given an exhibit number.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 123.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Vidovic, I'm unsure about the meaning of this

21 document. What is it you wish to prove or what information do you wish

22 the Chamber to elicit from this document?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday we discussed

24 the relations between the foreigners and the 7th Muslim Brigade. The

25 indictment considers foreign fighters as members of the 7th Muslim

Page 858

1 Brigade, and I want the witness to comment on the actual relations between

2 the troops of the 7th Muslim Brigade and the foreign fighters.

3 This document, in my belief, speaks to it, when taken with the

4 other documents that we have exhibited and ones that we intend to tender.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: This seems, on the face of it, to be a document

6 belonging to the investigation against a Sabahet Isakovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Isakovic, yes.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. And in the course of this investigation, the

9 attempted assassination of Emir Mahmut Efendija Karalic is mentioned, and

10 it is mentioned in relation to the attempt being carried out by a foreign

11 citizen. Now, that may very well be one of the Arabs, if we should call

12 it this, I suspect this is what you have in mind, but it doesn't say so.

13 This is a foreign citizen. It could be anyone. So how do you relate this

14 document to the relationship between the Arabs and the 7th Muslim Brigade?

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document says

16 that Sabahet Isakovic hid the gun, and that is why the gun that was used

17 in this assassination attempt. And that is why I asked the witness

18 whether he knew about this incident, and the witness said, "I do. Two

19 Arabs tried to kill Efendija Mahmut Karalic."

20 Q. Am I right, Witness, did I understand you correctly?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is why I showed this to the

23 witness, precisely, because I wanted to clarify this dilemma that you just

24 presented to us, Your Honour.

25 Q. And to clarify the situation further, Witness, let me ask you:

Page 859

1 You told us that this incident was widely known?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second. Deal with the question by the Judge

4 before you go back to the witness, and let's get done with that. I don't

5 know whether the Judge is satisfied with your answer, Madam Vidovic.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Not quite, because I have understood thus far

7 that, indeed, it could be Arabs who are involved in this. But the next

8 thing I read in the document is that this is an attempted murder or

9 assassination that has to do with some money that one borrowed from the

10 other and the selling of a gun and something else, and that doesn't seem

11 to me to be of any particular interest, other than this is petty crime.

12 It doesn't speak to any differences between the suspects and

13 Mr. Karalic that would clarify the situation on political or religious

14 grounds.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I explain? That

16 is why it is sometimes a bad idea to read just small parts of the

17 document. Let me read this: "According to the information from several

18 sources, on 16th of July, 1993, he probably hid the gun belonging to the

19 foreign citizen who had attempted to assassinate the Emir Mahmut Efendija

20 Karalic."

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: We have read the document --

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I beg you for your

23 indulgence. I have to read the sentence that follows, because otherwise I

24 can't explain to you what this document is all about. Could I ask you for

25 your permission to read the next sentence.

Page 860

1 "In the meantime, he borrowed 750 DM from the brigade, which he

2 has not paid back to this day."

3 So, on the one hand, this document says that on the 16th of July,

4 he hid the pistol that was involved in this attempted assassination, and

5 he also borrowed 750 DM from the brigade. These are two acts that are

6 discussed in this document, the way I see it.


8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And my question to the witness that

9 relates to the assassination attempt on Mahmut Efendija Karalic is:

10 Q. Did you hear about the foreign nationals attempting to kill

11 Mahmut, "Efendi," Karalic? And when I say "foreign nationals," I mean

12 specifically Arabs. Did they try to assassinate him?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, you don't, in the process of

14 answering a question from the Bench, go back to the witness. Deal with

15 the Judge, finish with the Judge, and let the Judge satisfy himself that

16 you have answered to his satisfaction, and then you can go to the witness.

17 Okay?

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: I apologise, because I don't want to bring trouble

20 to you, but I thought that what you wanted to prove here was a problematic

21 relationship between the Arabs and the 7th Muslim Brigade, and perhaps

22 some of the other members of the El Mujahedin, and those differences would

23 be based on political, religious, moral grounds. And if that were the

24 point, I would understand you, because that would be in your interest to

25 show that there were severe religious and political and moral differences

Page 861

1 between these groups.

2 Now, what you bring to me here is, to me, something that looks as

3 simple petty crime. That would not, in my mind, bring much testimony to

4 those religious differences, and that is why I asked about what is the

5 meaning of this document.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 I thought that this document spoke to the relation between Arabs

8 and the 7th Brigade, but I will withdraw this document, Your Honour, and I

9 will move on.

10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would need some other

11 clarification with regard to this whole episode that this document refers

12 to, and, of course, in relation to your cross-examination, Mrs. Vidovic.

13 Witness, I would like you to clear up something for us. You said

14 yesterday, I believe, during the cross-examination, that the military

15 police had no control over your units because general disorder and chaos

16 reigned at the time. So with regard to this episode that you seem to be

17 somewhat familiar with, at least, the military police -- was the police

18 active, in fact, despite what you said?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About this incident that did happen,

20 Mahmut Efendija Karalic had his bodyguards. They were members of the

21 military police. They were there to guard him. His security detail, they

22 were with him. The two Arabs, one or two, tried to kill the efendi, and

23 the police killed two Arabs protecting the efendi. So the police,

24 actually they guarded Efendija Karalic.

25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And just one other thing. If I

Page 862

1 understand your answer correctly, the military police, rather than really

2 controlling the situation and ensuring order in general, and the

3 protection of all citizens, was ensuring the protection of certain

4 particular individuals?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the military police, part

6 of the 7th Muslim Brigade, and Karalic had fears for his safety. And for

7 that reason, he had to have guards.

8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Therefore, if it was possible to

9 have bodyguards for the protection of particular individuals, would you

10 say that it was also possible to guarantee public order and, therefore,

11 also the possibility to carry out investigations, to punish the behaviour

12 of members of the military detachments, for example?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Mahmut Efendija Karalic was

14 the emir of the 7th Muslim Brigade, and he was entitled to this exclusive

15 right to protection. And as for establishing order in other ways, the

16 situation was not good. There were not enough forces to establish order.

17 But he was the emir of the brigade, and he had this privilege.

18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, we've got to decide the fate of this

20 document before you proceed. You have read extensively from it, virtually

21 everything. Do you still need it admitted into evidence, when you have

22 read it all into the evidence?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this time, I will

24 be withdrawing this document, and I will find some other way. Perhaps I

25 could call the author of this document and have him explain about it.

Page 863

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

3 Q. I will now go back to some issues -- small issues that we were

4 discussing yesterday, and I would like to ask you to clarify those issues

5 so that the Chamber gets a clearer picture of some of the terms that we

6 have been using here.

7 In your evidence yesterday, you said that the Mujahedin were

8 fighters on Allah's path; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Some people call these men "Mujahids" and some call them

11 "Mujahedin"; am I right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So it is one and the same category of people; am I right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. This term was used by the people to designate foreign fighters,

16 but also the locals who had joined them; am I right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. All the foreign fighters, the Mujahedin, were not of African or

19 Asian background; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Among them, there were Muslims from Europe, Turks, who looked more

22 or less the same as the Bosnian fighters; am I right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Members of the 7th Muslim Brigade often wore beards, and sometimes

25 they dressed like the foreign fighters as Mujahedin in the field; am I

Page 864

1 right?

2 A. Yes. There were many members of the 7th Muslim Brigade who wore

3 long beards. There were quite a few of them.

4 Q. It is true, is it not, that members of the 7th Brigade were often

5 mistaken for foreign fighters because of the way they looked?

6 A. Yes, certainly.

7 Q. Even the members of other units of the Army of Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina who didn't know them personally would mistake them in this

9 manner; is that correct?

10 A. Well, they looked the same. I can't -- well, yeah, that would be

11 it.

12 Q. Thank you. Witness, in 1992 and 1993, you lived in Central

13 Bosnia. It is true, is it not, that the Croatian media, radio/TV, would

14 confuse the Muslimanske Snage, the 7th Muslim Brigade, the Mujahedin, and

15 they would use the term "Muslimanske Snage," "Muslim Forces," to designate

16 all of those?

17 A. Well, when I was captured by the HVO, I know that they used

18 different terms for all -- all of them: MOS, Muslimanske Snage, the

19 Mujahedin. They used those terms generally.

20 Q. They considered -- or rather, let me rephrase the question. The

21 BH Army was identified both with Muslimanske Snage and the Mujahedin; am I

22 right?

23 A. Well, they called all of us "the Mujahedin." They called us

24 "Turks." They used all kinds of names. When I was captured, I heard

25 from some HVO members who were in prison for some other offences, I heard

Page 865

1 what they were talking about, about what happened on the lines, that the

2 Mujahedin were attacking from all sides.

3 Q. When you say "all of us," do you refer to the Muslim population or

4 the Muslim fighters?

5 A. The entire BH Army. They called us "the Mujahedin," "the Turks,"

6 or some other names also.

7 Q. Thank you. In your evidence yesterday, you said - and you

8 confirmed several times - that in Central Bosnia there was chaos. And I

9 would now like to show you a document that I believe to be relevant.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

11 D40.

12 Q. Witness, could you look at this document?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And for the record, I would like to

14 say that this is a document originating from the 7th Muslim Brigade, dated

15 the 30th of May, 1993, and the heading is "Reply to the 3rd Corps

16 Command's Order" of the 27th of May, 1993.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me, ma'am. Did you say this document is

18 dated the 30th of May? That's what the transcript says.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. That's what I said. I

20 don't know what's recorded. The 30th of May, yes. Yes. Let me just

21 clear this up to avoid any confusion.

22 We have a stamp here that bears the date of the 30th of May, and

23 then the title is "Reply to the 3rd Corps Command's Order," dated the 27th

24 of May 1993. So we have two different dates. Was that the thrust of

25 your question?

Page 866

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, ma'am. My understanding of that document and

2 those two dates is that the document is dated the 27th of May and not the

3 30th, but it was received by the 7th Mountain Brigade on the 30th, hence

4 the stamp. That's the stamp for date of receipt, I would imagine.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the date of the document is the 27th, coming

7 from whoever it comes from.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No. The document quite clearly

9 shows that this is a reference. It is a reply to an order that was issued

10 by the Corps Command on the 27th of May, 1993; and since it is signed by

11 Asim Koricic --

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, ma'am. Thank you very much.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It really

14 assists us when we can clarify things.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, let me quote. This is a very brief document, and I will

18 say what it says here: "We are unable to obey Item 6 of your order,

19 strictly confidential number 02/33-1281, of the 27th of May, 1993, because

20 we do not have the insignia showing or belonging to the unit. We did not

21 get these and so the process of marking has not even begun. I am

22 addressing this letter to you in order to prevent unnecessary occurrences

23 during the inspection of V/O, who are members of this unit, and to request

24 that this unit be given the prescribed insignia."

25 And before I move on to my question, I want to just ask you one

Page 867

1 thing. "V/O" can refer to the term of military conscripts; am I right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. This is a document that bears the date on the stamp the 30th of

4 May, 1993. On the face of it, we could conclude that on that date, the

5 7th Muslim Brigade did not have the proper insignia on that date. You

6 were there at the time. You worked there at the time. It is true, is it

7 not, that you did not have the insignia at that time?

8 A. The 7th Brigade insignia came in only later. At that time, we

9 wore all kinds of insignia, some of Muslimanske Snage, and some people

10 didn't have any insignia at all.

11 Q. In other words, this document contains information that is

12 accurate?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Let me now ask you another question. In our language, we call --

15 we use the term "amblemi" that indicate insignia of membership of a unit.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. They are worn visibly attached to the sleeve of the uniform?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like this document to be

20 given an exhibit number.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, has this document been

23 given an exhibit number?

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Not yet, because we are, before we will admit it,

25 discussing the probative value of the document. And I have, again, some

Page 868

1 reservations, because I'm not sure of exactly what it is you wish to prove

2 with this document. I would imagine that your point of wishing to admit

3 it is that it shows that there was no order, no system, in the 7th Muslim

4 Brigade. They were running around, all of them, with either different or

5 no insignia at all, and that you wish the Chamber to extract the

6 information from this document that here you can see or here we can see

7 that it was all a mess.

8 I would be willing to go along with it, but the fact that for some

9 time there were not enough insignia to put on everybody's uniform is, to

10 me, not necessarily a sign of disorder. That could happen to, I guess,

11 most military forces during an armed conflict.

12 But I would ask you really to explain to us why you are admitting

13 this -- seeking to admit this document.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to prove that

15 on the 30th of May, 1992 [as interpreted], the process of putting insignia

16 showing belonging to the 7th Muslim Brigade had not even started. This is

17 highly relevant in these criminal proceedings because there will be

18 witnesses testifying about the participation of men in battles, and it is

19 very relevant to establish whether they were wearing insignia or not.

20 I think this document shows clearly that they did not receive

21 their insignia and that this process had not even started.

22 Your Honours, I understood that, at this point, the admissibility

23 of documents is being evaluated; whereas, the probative value will be

24 assessed as part of the whole collection of exhibits and testimonies. I

25 feel that this document is highly relevant because it shows that on the

Page 869

1 30th of May, several days before the event in Maline, the process of

2 putting insignia on the men of the 7th Muslim Brigade had not even begun;

3 whereas, it is members of that brigade who are suspected of having

4 committed these crimes.

5 Have I been sufficiently clear for Your Honour?

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: You have indeed, and your explanation now makes

7 all the difference to me. I'm very happy now, because now I understand

8 what it is you want. And I would like you, in the future - and also the

9 Prosecution - to explain to us what you wish to prove here, because

10 otherwise the Chamber is left in the dark. You may have understood it all

11 because you have a plan for your Defence, but you need to show it to us

12 and help and assist the Chamber.

13 I would be in favour of admitting it, but let me consult with my

14 colleagues.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mine is a procedural problem, ma'am, and I know we

17 have not yet adopted the guidelines on presentation of evidence, but the

18 point I'm going to raise has not been even commented upon by the parties,

19 because I think I assume they accept the point; namely, that where you

20 have read extensively from a document, it just burdens the record to even

21 go ahead and admit the document again.

22 Now, this is a very short document and you read it in its

23 entirety. Do you still need the document to go in? The contents of the

24 document are already on the transcript.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is necessary. This

Page 870

1 document consists of two sentences, literally two sentences. I think that

2 at the end of the trial, the transcript will be much clearer, as will the

3 exhibits, if certain relevant parts of documents are in the transcript. I

4 will not be doing this with long documents, Your Honours. We will be

5 using documents of 200 pages or so. I will be quoting small extracts and

6 seeking to admit only those, or rather, to have only those in the

7 transcript. But this is a very short document, which is why I quoted it.

8 Your Honours, if I do not quote the document, it is very hard to

9 understand what we are talking about here.

10 Your Honours, I will be very happy to explain the purpose every

11 time, but this will lengthen the proceedings, and it will prolong the time

12 of cross-examination, which is why I don't go into explanations of

13 documents.

14 So I'm seeking instructions from Your Honours. If I have to

15 explain every time, of course, I will try to explain the purpose of each

16 document, but -- I see my learned friend is on his feet.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 The Prosecution expresses its support for the idea that Judge

20 Harhoff has explained, but, again, I think I also share some concerns that

21 my learned colleague from the Defence has with respect to the amount of

22 time that might be required for some of the documents.

23 We also have a bit of a concern about the procedure of explaining

24 the relevance or probative value of documents in the presence of witnesses

25 as these issues arise. And, of course, in order to excuse the witness,

Page 871

1 again, eats up additional time, which is, of course, a very precious

2 commodity.

3 I'm not sure how we can get out of this dilemma. I do understand

4 the need for the Judges to understand precisely what the relevance and

5 probative value of the documents are. And in that respect, I do reiterate

6 what the Prosecution has said previously, that in 7(3) cases, particularly

7 this case, it's primarily a circumstantial case. And a large number of

8 documents that might at first glance -- which are both Prosecution and

9 Defence documents, may not at first glance appear to be probative or to

10 have a high degree of relevance, may through later witnesses or through

11 later documentary evidence gain in probative value and relevance as all

12 the evidence comes in.

13 The only other point I would simply make is that I believe on page

14 15, line 5, there's an error in the transcript where at least the English

15 version, Mrs. Vidovic refers to the date of the document on the screen as

16 being 30 May 1992, and perhaps that's either a translation error or

17 perhaps she misspoke. Of course, this document is 30 May 1993.

18 Thank you.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

20 I thought that the issue that Judge Harhoff had raised had been

21 resolved, that we were now dealing with the issue that I was raising, and

22 you didn't comment on what I said.

23 Now, let me say this to you, then, Madam Vidovic. We will now

24 admit this document, but can I ask you, please, in the future, if a

25 document is this short, you can ask the witness to look at it. We can

Page 872

1 look at it ourselves, read it, and then put your questions. Don't read

2 the document and then ask the document to be put into evidence when it is

3 so short.

4 I can understand if it is a long document, that are you going to

5 focus the witness's attention to a specific part and you want to quote

6 that part. That I understand.

7 So do you think that guideline would help? Thank you very much.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

11 exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit 123.


14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The previous document was

15 withdrawn and struck from the record.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. 123.

17 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness now

19 be shown document D41. And for the record, until the document appears on

20 the screen, this is a document issued by the Command of the 3rd Corps, the

21 Security Sector, and it is dated the 12th of September, 1993.

22 Your Honours, the copy was very bad, which is why we ask -- we ask

23 for you to see the document.

24 Q. Witness, I think you have the document before you, and I will ask

25 you to read the document, in view of Their Honours' instructions.

Page 873

1 The document shows that information was obtained that certain

2 persons were using their military booklets as identification documents,

3 and there's evidence of engagement in certain tasks. And the most

4 frequent cause of this problem is the irresponsibility of certain organs,

5 and that there is information that fictitious documents were being issued

6 without the proper basis.

7 Is that what the document says, Witness?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I won't quote from the document any further, but please try to go

10 back in your mind to the year 1993, because I want to ask you questions

11 about facts following from this document.

12 While you were a member of the 7th Muslim, is it correct that

13 people in the field used these military booklets to sell on the black

14 market?

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait a minute. Did you say to sell the booklets on

16 the black market?

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely so, Your Honour.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that there were certain

19 abuses of military booklets. I know that some people sold their military

20 booklets. Everybody had to be mobilised. People who did not want to go

21 to the front lines, to the defence lines, and who didn't want to join any

22 unit tried in every possible way to obtain these booklets. I was near

23 Travnik, and these were people from the town of Travnik, the ones that I

24 knew of.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 874

1 Q. And the purpose of buying such booklets was to have a booklet to

2 show if there were any checks?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Either by the military police or the civil police; am I correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You read this document?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Does it reflect the actual situation on the ground?

9 A. Yes, that's what it was like.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may this document be

11 admitted?

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

13 please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 124.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. I'll move on to another topic.

18 Witness, yesterday, you told us that, at a certain point in time,

19 you joined a group of Arabs, and now I want to ask you the following: In

20 mid-August 1993, approximately, you learned that there had been an

21 agreement between the detachment and the army that it was to enter into

22 the army establishment; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And I want to ask you the following in connection with this: It's

25 correct, is it not, that groups of Arabs from Mehurici and Poljanice

Page 875

1 entered the detachment?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. It's also correct, is it not, that El Mujahedin was made up of

4 these groups?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it's also correct, is it not, that in a certain area of

7 Central Bosnia, which was not very large, there were several groups of

8 Arabs; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. For example, the Turkish group in Arnauti?

11 A. Yes. Well, excuse me. I don't know where the Turkish group was,

12 but in the areas of Travnik and Zenica I know there were quite a few

13 groups. But I can't tell you where each one was located exactly.

14 Q. All right. Have you heard of the group at Bistricak?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In Zeljezno Polje?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It's correct, is it not, that these groups had nothing in common

19 with El Mujahedin?

20 A. No, they didn't. These were separate groups. I don't know

21 whether they had any contact at all.

22 Q. Do you have any knowledge of whether these groups acted

23 independently or whether they were under someone's control?

24 A. As far as I know, these were independent groups. They would join

25 in some actions, but for the most part they were completely independent in

Page 876

1 their activities.

2 Q. And now I'll go back to the detachment. The detachment had its

3 emir? You said that more than once.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell Their Honours, if you know, what a shura is?

6 A. A shura is a kind of religious council or body which made

7 decisions on certain matters. They could decide what should be done by a

8 unit.

9 Q. When you say" religious body," and when you say that they could

10 make decisions as to what a unit could do, could you please clarify this

11 for Their Honours? Would I be correct in saying that the shura was the

12 supreme commanding body?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In other words, it was the supreme commanding body?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And it was based on a religious foundation?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You were probably not present at meetings of the shura, but you

19 would know the following: The decisions of the shura were binding on

20 members of the detachment; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Witness, in your testimony, you described participating in some

23 battles together with the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would I be right in reaching the following conclusion: Regardless

Page 877

1 of the fact that the detachment had been established as a unit of the

2 army, it's true that its shura and emir continued making decisions as to

3 whether the detachment would go into action or not?

4 A. That's correct.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Thank you.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. The army could only discuss cooperation with the shura; do you

8 know that?

9 A. I don't know. I don't know any details about that.

10 Q. Regarding the activities of the detachment, it was the emir and

11 the shura who decided. You told us that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. People did not go into certain battles if the shura said "No"; is

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know, for example, that the detachment did not go to fight

17 around Buhine Kuce? Have you heard about that?

18 A. I can't remember the area correctly, but I know there were such

19 instances.

20 Q. It would be fair to say, would it not, that assessments of the

21 situation were made in the detachment as to whether to go into action or

22 not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I will now put a proposition to you. If the shura decided that

25 the detachment should not go into a certain battle with the army - and you

Page 878

1 said there was such cases - not even the late President Izetbegovic could

2 have issued a different order; am I correct in assuming that?

3 A. I know that it was the shura that issued these decisions. I can't

4 go into details, but it's certain that the shura could decide differently.

5 But I'm not aware of the details. The shura, if they felt the detachment

6 should not go, they could make that decision. They could make a different

7 decision.

8 Q. Thank you. When testifying about the participation of the El

9 Mujahedin Detachment at Kruscica, in fighting with the army, you said that

10 you knew that El Mujahedin participated in the fighting. But I want to

11 suggest to you the following: It's correct, is it not, that at that time,

12 during the fighting at Kruscica, there was a very serious incident, almost

13 a clash, between the El Mujahedin Detachment and the armija, the army.

14 And I will ask you the following: Before your arrest, a fighter of the

15 Krajiska Brigade was arrested for being drunk by members of the

16 detachment; do you remember that?

17 A. Yes. I remember that situation very well.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness be

19 shown document D37 in connection with this.

20 Q. Witness, when the document shows up on your monitor, please read

21 it.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And could the usher zoom in, please,

23 and show the document in its entirety.

24 This document is entitled -- or rather, it's a document of the

25 Glorious 17th Krajina Mountain Brigade, and it's dated the 25th of

Page 879

1 October, 1993.

2 Q. You mentioned yesterday that the Glorious 17th was at Kruscica, I

3 think.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. Yes, it is. But if I can clarify, I heard about the

7 situation from members of the detachment. I didn't see it myself, so I

8 don't know precisely what happened, but they explained to me what happened

9 after some time. I don't know exactly how much time had elapsed, and then

10 I will say something about it later on.

11 Q. Yes. So I understand that you know about the capture of a

12 fighter. It says here of the Mixed Artillery Division of the Glorious

13 17th, Amir --

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the last name.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. -- Kuduzovic?

17 A. Yes, I heard about that.

18 Q. In the document, if you've read it, it says that the army

19 endeavoured to get its fighter back and to have him released, but quite

20 simply they were rejected quite roughly, and they were made to leave the

21 El Mujahedin camp in quite a rude manner.

22 So I will ask you the following: You are not surprised, are you,

23 by this attitude of the detachment towards the members of the armija who

24 came to fetch their fighter who had been arrested by the El Mujahedin?

25 A. I'm not surprised because the Arabs were very upset by the fact

Page 880

1 that the man had been drinking alcohol. They had methods of their own.

2 There were other incidents, also, besides this one.

3 Q. So this BH Army soldier was arrested solely because he had been

4 intoxicated?

5 A. Yes. The man came there. He was not in the best of states, and

6 he asked for some alcohol; and then they took him in purportedly to give

7 him some alcohol.

8 Q. It is true, is it not, that this soldier was not released when the

9 BH Army intervened, but only when Mufti Abdibegovic intervened and the

10 incident died down after that?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

13 admitted into evidence.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

15 please be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 125.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I will go back to the detachment itself. The Prosecutor showed

20 you some photographs, and you were able to identify some members of the

21 detachment.

22 I would like to ask you, you knew Imad Al Mesri; did you not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you please tell the Judges who he was, what his role was in

25 the detachment?

Page 881

1 A. Well, he was also some kind of a religious representative. He ran

2 the religious school. He was some kind of a religious leader.

3 Q. A religious leader. So we're talking about Imad Al Mesri, to make

4 the transcript quite clear. You were at his lectures?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Would you agree with me that he considered Corps members to be

7 infidels and enemies of the faith?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now I would like to

10 show document D92 to the witness. It is an excerpt from a book by Evan

11 Kohlmann, pages 118 and 119 in the English. That would be page 54 [as

12 interpreted] In the B/C/S translation. I will be quoting from just a

13 little excerpt from this book.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Page 154 in the B/C/S

15 version.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could just zoom in a

17 little bit. The part is important for me. Could you please look at this

18 document while we're waiting for the English version.

19 Q. Could you please look at this part where it says: "Among the

20 textbooks used in this school was an essay ..."

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't have the English version.

22 Okay. Thank you very much.

23 This is the last paragraph in the English version at the very

24 bottom of this page, Your Honours, the one that I'm interested in.

25 Q. If you have read this part, Witness, it says here that Imad Al

Page 882

1 Mesri, also known as Amad el-Masri. It says here that he was known for

2 his regular instructions and lectures on the Islam. The book that was

3 distributed by the Kuwaitis condemned the kuffar, the infidels, and their

4 various attempts at self-government.

5 You told us something about Imad Al Mesri. You said that he was a

6 religious leader. Does this reflect what you actually told us?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So Imad Al Mesri criticised the infidels?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you please tell the Judges, to your knowledge, how long was

11 Imad Al Mesri in the detachment?

12 A. I think he was there until the end of the war.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, I would

14 like this document to be admitted into evidence.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It will be admitted into evidence. May it be given

16 an exhibit number? Just this page, Madam?

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour, just this

18 page, and its translation.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 118 of the translation. I don't know what the

20 page number is on the -- 154 of the B/C/S.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And the -- we have two pages in

22 English and one page in Bosnian.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: While I'm speaking, may I ask that when the witness

24 is speaking, could we please switch off our mics, because otherwise it

25 affects the voice distortion. So you'll have to ask questions, then

Page 883

1 switch on and off. Thank you very much. I know you've been doing that,

2 but at times we forget.

3 You may proceed.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We apologise.

5 Now I would like the witness to be shown document D29.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I'm sorry to interrupt. The

7 previous exhibit, the Exhibit number will be 126.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. 126.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] So, Your Honour, I ask that the

10 witness be shown document D29. And for the record, this is a document

11 from the Command of the 3rd Corps in Zenica, the Security Sector, dated

12 the 28th of November, 1993, that is entitled "Report on the Activities of

13 Foreigners from Arab Countries in the Area of Responsibility of the 3rd

14 Corps."

15 Q. Witness, this is a long document, and I will be quoting just a

16 very brief portion, in light of the length of this document. I will be

17 quoting from the first paragraph, part of the first paragraph, where it

18 says:

19 "In contact with a colleague during the preparation in these days,

20 we came by photocopies of letters addressed to Saudi Arabia, to Ebu Ahmed

21 and Ebu D'Asira. In this letter sent to Saudi Arabia, a certain Imad, a

22 fighter of the El Mujahedin Unit, informs Ebu Ahmed and Ebu D'Asira about

23 the situation in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and states: 'I

24 inform you that a difficult phase has started for us because there are

25 many enemies, Communists. However, this phase represents a new phase of

Page 884

1 improvement in the road we follow. We are now one detachment. We have

2 our own body, which is formally under the control of the army, but it

3 cannot order us to engage in actions against our will. To the contrary,

4 we set plans for them because they have little experience.'"

5 Now, Witness, I want to ask you something about this. You told us

6 that you knew a person by the name of Imad in the El Mujahedin Unit; is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you agreed that he considered Communists the enemies of the

10 faith; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And in order for the Trial Chamber to understand what it is that

13 we're talking about, it is true, is it not, that both the Arabs and the

14 Muslims close to the religious circles considered former JNA officers to

15 be Communists?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. They also considered many of the politicians in Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina to be Communists, the official authorities of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina; am I right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Would you agree with me, having heard this short quote, that Imad,

22 in this letter, paints an accurate picture of the relationship between the

23 El Mujahedin Unit and the army when he says: "We are now one detachment.

24 We have our own body, which is formally under the army, but the army

25 cannot order us to engage in actions against our will." Does this reflect

Page 885

1 the actual relations in the field?

2 A. Let me clarify this a little bit.

3 The Arabs, in fact, ran the detachment. We Bosniaks were not so

4 well represented in this cadre. They could make decisions, and I can't

5 say some things with certainty, but, yes, that's what they did. So they

6 could decide otherwise, as I have already said.

7 Q. In other words, am I right, did I understand you correctly that

8 you consider that this document reflects the accurate information?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could I get an

11 exhibit number for this document.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

13 please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 127.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will be asking you only two or

17 three questions before our break.

18 Q. It is true, is it not, that the detachment, throughout its

19 existence, refused to wear the BH Army insignia? What I mean, I refer to

20 the fleur-de-lys symbol.

21 A. Well, the Command Staff and the Arabs, they didn't want to wear

22 them, but some Bosniaks who had perhaps brought them over from their

23 original units, they may have worn them. But they were not generally

24 worn.

25 Q. The record says that "they were not generally worn," but what you

Page 886

1 actually said is they were not worn officially?

2 A. Yes, that's right. They were not worn. Some people may have --

3 I'm talking now about the Bosniaks, because Arabs did not wear any

4 insignia.

5 Q. Thank you. Just one more question.

6 The detachment refused to fight under the Bosnia and Herzegovina

7 flag, and it had the fleur-de-lys symbol on it?

8 A. Well, there was no such flag in the barracks, and it was not

9 carried into action.

10 Q. Let me just ask you to look at a brief video. It is D3.

11 Do you see this, Witness? Can you see it on your screen?

12 A. [No verbal response]

13 [Video played]

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Am I right -- can you see it now?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Am I right when I say that the detachment fought under this flag

18 in all its combat activities?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now stop with my questions,

21 and I would just like to tender this video into evidence. We're only

22 interested in this part where this flag is seen.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The clip from this video is admitted into evidence.

24 May it please be given an exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 128.

Page 887

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand that it

3 is now time for our break.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is indeed.

5 Court adjourned, and come back at quarter to.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, yesterday, you had said you'd take

9 the first session. How much longer are you going to be still?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe maybe 15

11 minutes, not more. Of course, I didn't expect this lengthy discussion

12 about the documents, but I've done my best to cut down the number of

13 questions. So no more than 15 minutes, I'm sure of it.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness

16 Exhibit 109.

17 Q. Witness, could you please look at the page 1 of this document. It

18 is a document from the Zenica Security Services Centre in Zenica, the

19 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Ministry of Interior. It is sent to

20 the Secretariat of the Interior.

21 This document was shown to you by the Prosecutor yesterday, and I

22 would just like to ask you to look at what is here in this document.

23 A. I've read it.

24 Q. You will agree with me that this document refers to the rules on

25 keeping the record, the registration and de-registration of place of

Page 888

1 residence of foreign citizens; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And would you agree with me that it says here in this document

4 that on the 11th of October, 1994, all the legal requirements have not

5 been met?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I would then conclude that on the 11th of October, 1994, the

8 Secretariat of National Defence in Zenica did not have the relevant data

9 about foreign nationals. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You were in the detachment. You know that the foreign nationals

12 did not want to provide their personal details to anyone, not even to you

13 in the detachment?

14 A. Yes. None of us Bosniaks knew their real names. And as for the

15 documents, they handed them over to an Arab man in the Command.

16 Q. If I were to conclude that this was Abu Isa, would I be correct?

17 A. Yes, that was Abu Isa. I know him. All the documents were handed

18 over to him, but we didn't know the real names and we didn't really have

19 any contacts with either their documents or their real names.

20 Q. Witness, am I right when I say that Abu Isa is related to Sheikh

21 Enver, whom you mentioned?

22 A. I think that Abu Isa's sister was the wife of the deceased Sheikh

23 Enver.

24 Q. I will now be asking you some questions about Sheikh Enver.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This document can be put away.

Page 889

1 This is a document that is already an exhibit.

2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I have a question.

3 Before you ask your next question, Ms. Vidovic, I would like you

4 to clarify a point for me, or rather, I would like to ask the witness to

5 clarify this point.

6 Sir, I am talking to you. You've said that no one amongst the

7 Bosnians knew the names, the real names of these foreigners. You also

8 said that these people gave their name to the command post in Arabic.

9 Does this mean that the authorities, that the Command knew who they were,

10 knew their real names, and knew that they were actually members of various

11 units in which they were fighting?

12 Thank you.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may before the

14 witness answers this question. It's either a problem with the record, the

15 transcript, or perhaps I misunderstood what the witness said. The witness

16 said that they gave their names to Abu Isa, not to the Command.

17 Q. Am I right, Witness?

18 A. They all gave their documents to Abu Isa.

19 Q. Abu Isa, to your knowledge, did he give those documents to the

20 Superior Command, let's say the BH Army Command? Do you have an knowledge

21 of that?

22 A. I don't know about that. I know that they concealed their

23 identity. We didn't know their real names, and Abu Isa held all those

24 documents.

25 Q. Thank you. I will now go back to Sheikh Enver.

Page 890

1 It is true, is it not, that he was a missionary?

2 A. Yes, as a religious leader.

3 Q. He was an Egyptian?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you agree that he came to Bosnia and Herzegovina from Italy?

6 A. I know that he came from Italy.

7 Q. And it is true that he came to Bosnia and Herzegovina in late

8 1994, not before that; am I right?

9 A. Late 1994 or early 1995. I'm not quite sure, but --

10 Q. So late 1994 or early 1995?

11 A. Yes, but it's possible that it's late 1994. I can't really

12 remember.

13 Q. Fine. If someone were to say that he was a member of the

14 detachment from May 1995 -- I do apologise. If someone were to claim --

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. I just

16 want to correct my question.

17 Q. If someone were to claim that he was a member of the detachment

18 from May 1993, would that be correct?

19 A. He showed up in late 1994. I don't think that he was there before

20 that.

21 Q. So until that time, from the time when you joined the detachment

22 until the end of 1994, he did not show up in the detachment; am I right?

23 A. I think that he didn't.

24 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to ask you just a few more questions.

25 Yesterday, you told us that several different groups had been

Page 891

1 operating in Bosnia-Herzegovina - I mean, groups of Arabs - in 1995 as

2 well?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Abu Zubeir [Realtime transcript read in error "Zubaida"] Group,

5 does that name mean anything to you?

6 A. I have heard about Abu Zubeir, and I knew that he had a group.

7 Q. Abu Zubeir?

8 A. Yes, Abu Zubeir.

9 Q. I want to make one thing clear, I'm talking about "Abu Zubeir,"

10 not "Abu Zubaida." These are two different persons.

11 Witness, the Abu Zubeir Group, am I correct when I think that this

12 group had -- was not on friendly terms with the El Mujahedin Detachment at

13 all?

14 A. There were some problems, yes. They were separate. He was

15 independent, and I know that they didn't come to the detachment at all.

16 They may have even been prohibited from coming to the detachment, but I

17 can't remember all the details.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to show to the

20 witness Exhibit 115. It's the personal records, Exhibit 115. And I

21 believe, Your Honours, that this is a document under seal, so I don't know

22 if we want to go into this document. I'm not going to be mentioning the

23 witness's name. I just wanted to point out that this is a document that's

24 been admitted under seal.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

Page 892

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 893

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The HOS is the Croatian Defence

16 Forces.

17 Q. Is that correct, Witness?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: They are different from the HVO?

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] They are different from the HVO,

21 yes, Your Honour. They operated independently both of the Army of Bosnia

22 and Herzegovina and of the HVO.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were they a BiH unit? Did they exist only in

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina or were they also there in Croatia?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to the best of my

Page 894

1 knowledge, they existed both in Croatia and also in Bosnia-Herzegovina, or

2 rather, some parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina, especially in Herzegovina, but I

3 think also in Central Bosnia and even in Sarajevo.

4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm terribly sorry to interrupt,

5 but I would like to ask a question. Actually, I'd like to put a question

6 to the witness.

7 Sir, you told us that this certificate, or rather, those

8 certificates that were delivered to the Bosnians in the Bosnian Army, were

9 also delivered to both forces, the HVO and the HOS. I would like to ask

10 you if you know if those certificates were delivered to those two groups

11 for the entire period of war, from 1992 to 1995 or end of 1995, or were

12 those certificates only delivered to the Croatian forces during the first

13 period while these forces fought against the Serbs, if I'm not mistaken,

14 together alongside with the Bosnian Army?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know precisely. I think it

16 was for the whole war from 1992 until 1995, but I'm not really familiar

17 with that topic.

18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we will have an

20 opportunity to clarify these issues with other witnesses.

21 Q. Witness, I asked you about a person nicknamed Abu Ubeidah. You

22 said that you knew him. Is it correct that this person was also called

23 Ali Ahmet Ali Hamad?

24 A. Well, I know Abu Ubeidah very well. I'm not sure about this

25 exactly, about Ali Ahmed, this other name. As he caused some problems

Page 895

1 after the war, I know about this. He caused the problem in Mostar, and I

2 think that was his name.

3 Q. Have you ever heard of a person nicknamed Abu Aisa?

4 A. I may have done, but I don't remember who this man is.

5 Q. I will go back to what you know. Abu Ubeidah, to the best of your

6 knowledge, from August 1993 onwards, was he a member of the El Mujahedin

7 Detachment?

8 A. He was never a member of the detachment. He had a group of his

9 own first in the Karaula; and then later on in Bijelo Bucje, he had a

10 group of his own.

11 Q. Thank you. And now I'll ask you something. You're a local

12 Muslim, are you not? Do you agree that the local Muslims were very

13 sensitive in the Travnik area to the improper contacts between the Arabs

14 and their young daughters who were under age?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And do you remember that they complained to Dr. Abu Haris while he

17 was the emir, and that there was talk about this in the detachment?

18 A. I know of several such incidents.

19 Q. Do you know whether any such cases were ever linked to Abu

20 Ubeidah?

21 A. Yes. In Bijelo Bucje, there was an incident with an under-age

22 girl. Something happened, I don't know exactly what. But I know that Abu

23 Haris, who had authority and was educated, he was able to explain certain

24 things. And he tried to draw Abu Ubeidah's attention to this, to give him

25 advice, and even tried to issue an order to him, but Abu Ubeidah refused

Page 896

1 to listen to anybody.

2 Q. I understood you to say that he tried to prohibit such improper

3 contacts with young girls to him.

4 A. Yes, because it damaged the reputation of all the Arabs. So he

5 tried that, but Abu Ubeidah would not allow it.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness. While you were in Bijelo Bucje, the situation

7 there was very difficult, was it not?

8 A. Yes. As I said yesterday, there were constant attacks by the

9 Chetnik forces using tanks, artillery, infantry. So the situation was

10 extremely difficult.

11 Q. I understood that there was a blockade by Serb and Croat forces.

12 Am I right?

13 A. Yes. There were Serb forces on the one side in the direction of

14 Donji Vakuf; and behind our back, there was some 15 Croatian villages.

15 And for a long time, there was a total blockade, for a long time.

16 Q. If someone were to say that at that time - and you were at Bijelo

17 Bucje then - that they often went from Bijelo Bucje to Mehuric and back,

18 that would not be possible, would it?

19 A. Well, for a long time, nobody could move around. People had to

20 stay where they were. Bijelo Bucje was the Bosniak village that was the

21 furthest out, Bijelo Bucje and another village. And neither civilians nor

22 soldiers nor anybody could move around for a long time:

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Your Honours, I have concluded my cross-examination. Thank you.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

Page 897

1 Mr. Mundis.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution just has a

3 few questions that arise out of the cross-examination.

4 Re-examination by Mr. Mundis:

5 Q. PW-2, I'd like to focus your attention on the period prior to the

6 establishment of the El Mujahedin Detachment. In that period prior to the

7 unit being formally established, did the Arabs in Mehurici have a shura?

8 A. Believe me, I can't say anything about that initial period,

9 because I'm not really familiar with what went on then.

10 Q. Let me then ask you, PW-2, about the period after you joined the

11 unit, the El Mujahedin Detachment.

12 At any point in time, sir, did you ever attend any meetings of the

13 Shura Council?

14 A. Towards the end of the war, I was present once. They invited us

15 Bosniaks, since it was towards the end of the war and they were supposed

16 to leave; and, on one occasion, several of us Bosniaks were invited to

17 attend.

18 Q. Let me ask you, PW-2, to focus on the period the second half of

19 1993, when you first joined the El Mujahedin Detachment. During that time

20 period, sir, can you tell us who the members of the Shura Council were?

21 A. It's very hard for me to say precisely, but Imad was certainly

22 there, so was Abu Haris. I'm not sure who else. People at the top.

23 There were Arabs. There were no Bosniaks there at all.

24 Q. PW-2, I'm going to ask you a question, and I want to stress the

25 fact that I'm asking you about your personal knowledge and not whether you

Page 898

1 heard about this from anyone else, but whether you are personally aware of

2 whether there were any meetings between the leaders of the El Mujahedin

3 Detachment and the leaders or commanders of any unit of the ABiH 3rd Corps

4 in 1993, when you were a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment.

5 A. When we were in the Kruscica area, I know that Vahidin,

6 "rahmetulali," had a contact with General Alagic. I know that for a

7 fact. I don't know about any other contacts.

8 Q. And, sir, the transcript didn't catch the name. You said someone

9 had a contact with General Alagic. Can you repeat the name of the person

10 that you know had a contact with General Alagic?

11 A. Vahidin, the late Vahidin.

12 Q. And, PW-2, do you know who General Alagic was and what position he

13 held at the time of this contact with Vahidin?

14 A. I know he was one of the commanders in the area. I'm not sure

15 whether he was the corps commander at the time.

16 Q. And, sir, when you say "one of the commanders in the area,"

17 commanding in which armed force?

18 A. He was a commander in the Army of BH, and I know that Vahidin had

19 contacts with him. What sort of contacts these were and what happened, I

20 don't know.

21 Q. And when you say, sir, that this contact that you've described

22 occurred when you were in the Kruscica area, can you give us an

23 approximate time period that you were referring to?

24 A. I don't know exactly. It was August or September 1993.

25 Q. PW-2, let me now turn to that part of your testimony when you told

Page 899

1 us about being on the front line with Arabs near Bijelo Bucje when you

2 were part of the Muslimanske Snage.

3 Do you know - and, again, I would ask you to limit your answer to

4 what you know - do you know, if prior to the military operations along the

5 front line at Bijelo Bucje, there were any meetings between the leadership

6 of the Arabs and the leadership of the Muslimanske Snage?

7 A. I don't know. I don't know about any meetings.

8 Q. Earlier this morning, PW-2, you indicated in your testimony that

9 the Shura Council could make ultimate decisions as to whether to join any

10 combat operations. Do you remember saying that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know, PW-2, why the Shura Council retained flexibility in

13 deciding whether or not to engage in military operations with other units

14 of the BH Army?

15 A. They did not trust those units and the commanders of the Army of

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina. There was lack of confidence. Probably that is

17 the reason. They just didn't trust them.

18 Q. Do you know why?

19 A. Well, let's say yesterday, for example, we mentioned this action

20 in Visoko in 1992. The Arabs thought that those officers had consciously

21 pushed them into death. Well, they didn't respect the officers and the

22 generals, and there may have been other reasons as well.

23 Q. Can you elaborate, sir, on what you mean when you say "the Arabs

24 thought that those officers consciously pushed them into death"?

25 A. I can't explain it in detail. I don't know.

Page 900

1 Q. PW-2, what type of missions was the El Mujahedin Detachment sent

2 on or asked to perform?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this question does

5 not arise from my cross-examination. The Prosecutor could have put this

6 question before my cross-examination. I did not ask about the missions

7 that the El Mujahedin Detachment was sent on.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, without elaborating in any great detail

10 in the presence of the witness, I believe this question relates to the

11 last two or three questions I put to the witness, which does arise from

12 the issue as to whether or not the Shura Council could make decisions

13 about which operations to participate in.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is overruled.


16 Q. PW-2, let me ask you that question again. What type of missions

17 was the El Mujahedin Detachment sent on or asked to perform during the

18 period you were in that unit?

19 A. Well, I can't know, but I do know that after the conflict with the

20 Chetniks, conflicts arose with the Croats. The Bosniak villages were all

21 blocked. They were all surrounded. They were all mixed up. There would

22 be a Bosniak village, a Croat village, another Bosniak village. And I

23 know that we participated in those actions to lift the siege, the block.

24 For example, when we were at Kruscica, we were supposed to deblock

25 the old part of Vitez Town, and we were simply supposed to link up our

Page 901

1 territories. We were afraid that in Stari Vitez, all the inhabitants

2 might be killed, as had happened in Ahmici.

3 Q. PW-2, you were asked a few moments ago, or perhaps 45 minutes ago,

4 about Abu Isa. Do you know, sir, if Abu Isa was a member of the El

5 Mujahedin Detachment?

6 A. I can't say for certain because I don't know, but he was there.

7 He took some documents there. But whether he was there exactly, I can't

8 say.

9 Q. And, PW-2, when you say "he was there," what place are you

10 referring to when you say "he was there"?

11 A. I saw him on several occasions in the Vatrostalna barracks near

12 Zenica, where we were stationed when we were on leave.

13 Q. What function was the Vatrostalna barracks near Zenica being used

14 for at this time?

15 A. It was used as a barracks. The soldiers and the command were

16 quartered there.

17 Q. Again, sir, for the benefit of clarification, when you say "the

18 soldiers and the command were quartered there," what soldiers and what

19 command were in the Vatrostalna barracks near Zenica?

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wish to object for

22 the record. I did not cross-examine on the barracks in Zenica. I did not

23 put a single question about this. Mr. Mundis could have put these

24 questions during the examination-in-chief, and I want to say this for the

25 record.

Page 902

1 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, the witness was asked questions about

2 Abu Isa, and I'm simply trying to determine who this person was and where

3 he was at the relevant time period.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you asked the question, "What function was the

5 Vatrostalna barracks near Zenica being used for at that time," is that

6 still about Abu Isa?

7 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, if I can refer you to page 49, line 11,

8 in response to a question, the witness said: "I saw him on several

9 occasions in the Vatrostalna barracks near Zenica, where we were stationed

10 when we were on leave." I'm simply asking him to clarify. He goes on to

11 say: "It was used as a barracks. The soldiers and command were quartered

12 there," on lines 15 and 16 of page 94. I'm simply asking him to clarify

13 which soldiers and which command he was referring to.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection will then be overruled.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were members of the El Mujahed

16 Detachment, Arabs, and we were there from time to time, and the El Mujahed

17 Detachment command was also there, as was the outpatients' clinic and some

18 other facilities.


20 Q. And, finally, sir, do you know the time period when you saw Abu

21 Isa in the Vatrostalna building?

22 A. In 1995, I'm sure I saw him. I think it was 1995. I can't be

23 sure, but 1995, I think.

24 Q. Thank you, PW-2.

25 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions for the

Page 903

1 witness at this time, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

3 Judge.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question in regard to

6 the cross-examination of yesterday. I am sorry to ask you the question

7 today only, but yesterday you spoke, Witness, about an incident, an armed

8 incident, concerning someone called "Ramo Durmis" in your detachment. I

9 simply would like to know, with regard to that incident that you described

10 to us in detail yesterday, was an investigation carried out?

11 A. As regards Ramo Durmis, he was not a member of the detachment.

12 This incident occurred when we were -- I don't know whether it was

13 Muslimanske Snage or the 7th Muslim. I don't know. But it was in Visoko

14 after an action, the action to deblock Sarajevo, in fact. And I think

15 that they were prosecuted, but that did not happen until the end of the

16 war. Something like that. I don't know. I think that they did have some

17 problems, but I really can't tell you now what it was.

18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So these prosecutions or this

19 prosecution, you said, took place after the war. Were they criminal

20 proceedings, or disciplinary proceedings, or was it an administrative

21 procedure? Do you know?

22 A. I don't know the details. I know that they did have some

23 problems, and they were supposed to be held responsible. I know that they

24 complained later that somebody had come looking for them because of that.

25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

Page 904

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge.

2 Judge?

3 I have just a few.

4 You first, Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, after you conclude

6 your examination, I wanted to ask a question that arose from Judge

7 Lattanzi's question. I didn't realise that you had some questions,

8 yourself. I apologise for standing up.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

10 Mr. PW-2, where is the Krajina in Bosnia and Herzegovina? Which

11 part of Bosnia-Herzegovina was the Krajina?

12 A. Krajina is in northwestern part of Bosnia. It borders with

13 Croatia.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, is that a Bosnian Krajina or was it a Serb

15 Krajina, or is there any difference between them? Are there two such

16 Krajinas.

17 A. This is the Bosnian Krajina. This is its official name, Bosanska

18 Krajina, Bosnian Krajina. As for the Serb Krajina, it is in Croatia. We

19 didn't actually call that "Krajina" at that time. The Serbs called that

20 "Krajina" when they had this armed conflict with Croats.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Now, Vahidin, was he a member of the

22 shura?

23 A. I think that he was.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. If we can just go back to the

25 certificate that was shown to you a little earlier during

Page 905

1 cross-examination, which relates to what soldiers were given at the end of

2 the war and that some people were selling because they were worthless.

3 You said, at page 41, lines 19 to 25, that these certificates were

4 also given to the HVO, am I right, and I guess also the HOS?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: And these were given by the government of Bosnia

7 and Herzegovina, I understand?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And do I understand you to say that they were also

10 given to the HVO, against whom the army of the government of Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina had fought?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: How was that possible, to commend your enemies?

14 A. I apologise to be saying this, but if anyone had asked me, I would

15 not have given them anything. But that's politics for you.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. I want to understand that politics. Will you

17 please make me understand that politics?

18 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I really can't do that, because I

19 find it impossible to understand how they could be given the certificates

20 when they fought us; not us, but Bosnia-Herzegovina. So I really can't

21 understand that.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You understand that that's politics for me. I

23 would like you to explain this politics which I don't understand.

24 A. I will try to say something.

25 The conflicts between the BH Army and the Croatian Defence

Page 906

1 Council, or rather, the Croat forces stopped once the Washington Agreement

2 was signed, and that's when the Croats agreed to be part of an alliance,

3 in a way, with the BH Army, its allies. They recognised Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina, that was the gist of it. So an agreement was signed between

5 Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 Now, why this period while they actually fought against the BH

7 Army was counted in their favour, to their credit, when those certificates

8 were issued, I don't know. Probably that was one of the terms in this

9 agreement.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, I'm sorry. I'm going to be with you for some

11 time on this point.

12 You will understand that I don't understand the politics there, so

13 I would like to understand.

14 Surely, sir, the very question you're asking yourself at the very

15 end of your answer is very pertinent. Just how does the Bosnian

16 government commend the HVO for a period when they were enemies? That they

17 have signed an agreement in Washington can explain why they become allies

18 from that time onwards, but surely the Croatian government could give

19 similar certificates to members of the HVO instead of such certificates

20 coming from the Bosnian government. Don't you think so? Does it make

21 sense to you?

22 A. Well, as for Croatia, Croatia is a different country. It's a

23 different state, and it shouldn't really have anything to do -- it should

24 not be interfering with Bosnia-Herzegovina, even when it comes to ethnic

25 Croats.

Page 907

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is my point precisely, that it seems as if the

2 Bosnian government is interfering with the Croats and giving them

3 commendations. Why didn't the government of -- if this was as a result of

4 an agreement, why did the Croatian government not also give such similar

5 certificates to members of t of the Army of the Republic of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. I think that the real goal of this agreement was to put an end to

8 the hostilities. That was the most important thing.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I agree with you there. That would be the most

10 important purpose of any agreement. What I don't understand is why, as a

11 result of such an agreement, such commendations should be given and not

12 reciprocated by Croatia.

13 A. I really don't know.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. You say you really don't know, sir. So in

15 fact, at the end of the day, you are not able to give an explanation for

16 the commendations to the HVO by the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

17 A. What I do know is that Croats had this very strong influence, both

18 in military and in economic terms. So the reason why an agreement was

19 signed in that form was to ensure that the situation remained stable,

20 something like that.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The problem, Witness, is that you keep harping on

22 the agreement. My questions relate to the commendations, to the

23 certificates. Why would a government give commendation certificates to

24 members of an army against whom that government was fighting? That's the

25 question I'm asking. Forget about the agreement.

Page 908

1 A. I will repeat what I said. When I heard that the HVO members --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, don't repeat. If you don't have anything new

3 to tell me, just tell me you don't know. I don't want you to repeat

4 yourself.

5 Okay. Thank you very much. You are obviously not able to answer

6 my question.

7 Any questions arising from the Bench's questions, starting with

8 the Prosecution? Mr. Mundis.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Let me see if I can get an answer that might help

10 shed some light on the questions the Presiding Judge put to the witness.

11 Further Re-examination by Mr. Mundis:

12 Q. PW-2, the HVO, the Croatian Defence Council, was that military

13 organisation made up of Bosnian Croats?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Aren't you putting words into his mouth? Why don't

16 you ask him who was it made up of?


18 Q. Do you know, sir, who the Croatian Defence Council, the HVO, was

19 made up of, the nationality of?

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's water under the bridge. He's answered you

21 already. Get on to the next question.

22 MR. MUNDIS: That's the only question, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

24 Questions from you, Madam Vidovic?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me just make one

Page 909

1 thing certain.

2 Further Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

3 Q. You know that the HVO received those certificates?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That members of the HVO received those certificates?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You don't know why?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Just one more question, sir. You said, in response to a question

10 by Judge Lattanzi, you mentioned Ramo Durmis and some investigations, but

11 you don't know why Ramo Durmis was on trial after the war?

12 A. I don't know why he was tried. I know that he was a person prone

13 to causing problems. He was always a very specific character.

14 Q. So you can't establish any link between this incident and his

15 trial?

16 A. I don't know anything about the trial. I know that he was prone

17 to problems. That was not the only incident that he was involved in.

18 Q. So there were other criminal acts or activities that could be

19 linked with crimes?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. After the war?

22 A. Well, he was always a trouble-maker. I wasn't really interested

23 in learning the details. I just know that he was a trouble-maker.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have nothing further.

Page 910

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

2 Sir, this brings us to the end of your testimony. Thank you for

3 taking the time to come and testify at the Tribunal. You are now excused.

4 You may stand down. Thank you very much.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 My understanding is we're scheduled to break at 12.00. Maybe we

9 can take the recess now, reconvene at 12.20, and sit for an hour straight.

10 But I'm entirely in your hands on that point.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take the break now and come back at 20 past

13 12.00.

14 Court adjourned.

15 --- Recess taken at 11.50 a.m.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 --- On resuming at 12.21 a.m.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


22 [The witness answers through interpreter]

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, and Good

24 afternoon to you, sir.

25 Mr. Mundis.

Page 911

1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour. My colleague, Laurie

2 Sartorio will be leading this witness, and I would also like to put on the

3 record that we are being assisted by our intern, Sarai Jacob, for this

4 session.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 Ms. Sartorio.

7 MS.

8 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Mr. President and Your Honours.

9 Examination by Ms. Sartorio:

10 Q. Sir, would you please state your full name?

11 A. My name is Berislav Marijanovic, and I was born in the village of

12 Paklarevo in the Travnik Municipality.

13 Q. The Travnik Municipality of the country of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In 1992 and 1993, could you tell us what the ethnic composition

16 was of your village?

17 A. It was an ethnically-pure Croat village. The village of Paklarevo

18 is located between Turbe and Travnik. And it is below Mount Vlasic, and

19 there is a location by the name of Galica.

20 And then in 1992, in late March, that's where the Serb army came,

21 and they dug in their. They dug their trenches there, while we had some

22 kind of civilian protection set up around the village, because we wanted

23 to prevent them from getting into the village.

24 Q. Okay. I'll ask you a couple more questions, if you don't mind,

25 just to back up a second.

Page 912

1 Were you ever in the JNA?

2 A. Yes, in 1986, and I left in 1987.

3 Q. And then were you ever a member of any other military organisation

4 or any type of village patrol?

5 A. I was in the civilian village guards in 1992, all the way up to

6 the 15th of May. When shells started coming in from Galica, I was

7 seriously wounded because a shell impacted behind me. And I was

8 transferred to the hospital in Travnik, and I was hospitalised for ten or

9 11 days there; and then when I was discharged --

10 Q. May I interrupt you? Thank you for telling us.

11 I need you to tell the Chamber, briefly, what the atmosphere was

12 like where you were living at that time, in terms of any type of whether

13 military conflicts were starting; and if so, by which groups?

14 A. Well, the atmosphere, the relations between the Croats and the

15 Muslims was good. The atmosphere was good, but Serbs attacked both Croats

16 and Muslims from Mount Vlasic, Turbe, Paklarevo, and all the villages

17 around it. So we faced the same aggressor. They attacked both of us.

18 Q. So, at this time, you were part of a -- were you part of any type

19 of Croatian military organisation, formal military organisation?

20 A. I was a member of the civilian protection. I had my pistol. That

21 was my personal property, and I went there to stand guard around the

22 village.

23 Q. And when you say "civilian patrol," did the patrol consist of both

24 Croats and Muslims?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.

Page 913

1 MR. ROBSON: Sir, just -- I beg your pardon. Your Honour, sorry

2 to interrupt. I think it prudent just to mention - I'm sure it's not

3 disputed - my learned friend, the Prosecutor, was referring to Croatian

4 military organisations and Croats and Muslims. I don't think it's in

5 dispute between the parties that what we're talking about is Bosnian

6 Croats, and I just thought that helpful to mention at this stage, just to

7 clarify that point.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Robson.

9 Does that help, Madam Sartorio?


11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


13 Q. Now, at the beginning of 1993, where were you living at that time?

14 A. After the first time that I was wounded and after I left the

15 hospital, I went to the village of Maline because I was married from the

16 village of Maline, and that's where I lived until the 8th of June, 1993,

17 when the conflict between Croats and Muslims erupted.

18 Q. Prior, during the time that you lived in Maline up until the 8th

19 of June, which is the date that you just mentioned, did you ever encounter

20 or see anyone who later became known to you or at that time became known

21 to you as the Mujahedin?

22 A. Yes. I'd see some groups in Travnik, at Mehuric, too, because

23 there was a village fair down there every Wednesday. So I did see those

24 small groups because I was able to tell. Because of their language and

25 because of the colour of their skin, I was able to tell them apart.

Page 914

1 Q. Was there anything else about them that was a distinguishing

2 feature?

3 A. Well, most of them walked around in camouflage uniforms. They

4 wore beards. They talked different from us locals.

5 Q. Now, what, if anything, had you heard at that time about the

6 presence of the Mujahedin in the area, what your understanding was of what

7 they were doing there?

8 A. Well, they had not come there -- well, they had come there to

9 fight. I didn't know who they wanted to fight, but I was sure that they

10 were there to fight someone.

11 Q. Okay. Now I would like to direct your attention to the 8th of

12 June of 1993, and ask you where you were in the very early morning of that

13 day.

14 A. On the 8th of June, 1993, in the early morning hours, I was in my

15 wife's brother's house. This is where my family was. And then between

16 4.00 and 5.00 a.m., there was an artillery attack on the village of

17 Maline. It was launched by the Muslim army. And then after this

18 artillery attack, we could hear a lot of infantry fire, and it lasted for

19 some considerable time, until they managed to take the village.

20 Q. Can you tell us what you mean by "considerable time"?

21 Approximately, how many hours do you recall that this conflict went on?

22 A. The conflict started in the morning and went on for about ten

23 hours. It went on until the afternoon, until the civilians left towards

24 Mehuric.

25 Q. Thank you,, sorry. And until that point, when you mentioned the

Page 915

1 civilians left, did you stay in your house the entire time?

2 A. I was in the house with my family. When the shelling began, we

3 went to the cellar. It wasn't just me and my family, but also my wife's

4 brother and children. We were all in the cellar.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just interrupt. I thought I heard the

6 witness say this attack was by a Muslim army, was launched by a Muslim

7 army. What do you mean by "a Muslim army"? That's at page 63, line 8.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.


10 Q. From being inside your house, were you able to see anything

11 outside the windows, what was happening?

12 A. Yes, I did. I saw two or three stables burning, a house, people

13 shouting, "Allahu Akbar" around the village.

14 Q. Do you know what that means?

15 A. I don't know what it means.

16 Q. Did you see any soldiers of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17 A. We saw soldiers shouting for us to get out of our houses. When we

18 came out of our houses and surrendered to them, I had my pistol which I

19 handed over to a soldier. We all left the cellar, and that was when I saw

20 the soldiers. They were walking around.

21 Q. Okay. And, approximately, how many soldiers did you see walking

22 around in the area of your house?

23 A. Where we came out of the house, there were three or four of them,

24 but they came and went.

25 Q. Do you recall what they were wearing?

Page 916

1 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms. On their shoulders, they

2 had white ribbons, probably some sort of insignia, and they had black

3 bandanas.

4 Q. So, after you came out of your house, what happened next?

5 A. When we left the house, we surrendered. We all gathered together,

6 and then we sent out on the road towards Mehuric. They took us in the

7 direction of Mehuric, a group of 40 or 50 civilians, and I was among them.

8 MS. SARTORIO: I would like to bring up Map number 10, if

9 possible, and for the witness to look at and to discuss.

10 Q. While we're waiting for it to come up on the screen, in terms of

11 the composition of the group, were there women in this group?

12 A. There were women, there were children, there were elderly,

13 soldiers, a mixed group.

14 Q. And were there also some persons such as yourself who were of

15 military age who had joined the group voluntarily?

16 A. Yes, for example, my wife's brother, his son. And there were

17 other people I didn't really know, but they were there.

18 Q. Were any persons in your group dressed in any type of a military

19 uniforms?

20 A. In my group at that time, no, not in my group of civilians.

21 Q. So we now have the map up. I would like you to draw a number"1"

22 or write a number "1", where the group, this group of 50 or so you had

23 mentioned, had collated, gotten together.

24 A. That's Gornje Maline and this is Donje Maline. [Marks]

25 Q. And your group started out where, at Gornje?

Page 917

1 A. From Gornje Maline, where I put number 1, that was where the first

2 group was.

3 Q. Did the group, at this point, start walking?

4 A. Yes. They told us to go in the direction of Mehuric under Bikosi

5 and Poljanice, and to take the road towards Mehuric. When we got to below

6 Bikosi --

7 Q. I'll stop you there. Sorry. Who is "they"? Was someone leading

8 your group?

9 A. The BH Army was leading the group. There was three or four

10 soldiers there, and up there we came across a Mujahedin who couldn't speak

11 Croatian.

12 Q. And this is what you were just going to tell us. Just beneath

13 Bikosi, you can explain to the Chamber now what happened.

14 A. When we got to below Bikosi, we found -- we came across a

15 Mujahedin who had a Golf 1, a white one. He didn't turn on the engine.

16 He selected three of us to push the car to a part where he could go on his

17 own, and we pushed the car. When we stopped pushing it, he went off on

18 his own, and we rejoined our column. And we went through the village of

19 Poljanice in the direction of Mehuric.

20 Q. Could I stop you, please? Could you put a number "2" where you

21 had this event with a vehicle, please?

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Now, just a question. Did you notice if anyone in your group, in

24 the group that you were walking with, not the soldiers who were escorting

25 you but your group, was anyone carrying a fire-arm, that you could tell?

Page 918

1 A. Yes. All of them had long barrels, rifles, and there was even one

2 sniper escorting us.

3 Q. Okay. I'm asking about the civilians that you described or the

4 men, women, and children in your group.

5 A. None of the civilians did. I had my own personal pistol which I

6 had handed over to that soldier, who had the sniper. And my wife's

7 brother had his own personal pistol and he handed it over just as I did,

8 in the village before we set out.

9 Q. Did you notice anyone else who handed over any weapons in the

10 village before you headed out?

11 A. No, I didn't. There was just our group. They said, "If you don't

12 hand over your weapons, we will kill you." So it was better to hand them

13 over than get killed.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question to you, sir, is: Did you notice

15 anybody else in your group, other than yourself and your brother-in-law,

16 who handed over a weapon?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see anybody else, apart

18 from the two of us.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

20 Madam Sartorio.


22 Q. Now, after you left the spot at number 2, where did your group

23 head?

24 A. We went towards the village of Poljanice.

25 Q. And did you reach the village of Poljanice?

Page 919

1 A. We reached the village of Poljanice and went through in the

2 direction of Mehurici. When we were close to Mehurici, a column that had

3 set out before ours were there, and some young men had already been

4 separated off from that column and were being taken back towards the

5 village of Maline, towards Bikosi. They were going back.

6 Q. Okay. I'd like to stop you here for a moment. And, please, could

7 you mark on the map with a number "3" where what you just described

8 happened, where you met up with another group?

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Now, I need you to explain just a little bit more clear what you

11 just said; in other words, when you got to that spot, you -- did you meet

12 up with another group?

13 A. Yes. We met up with this other group, which -- well, these young

14 men, the oldest were about 45, had already been separated out from that

15 group of civilians. They stopped next to our group. I was carrying my

16 little son. He was four or five months old, and my four-year-old son was

17 walking beside me. A soldier approached me. He snatched the child from

18 me and gave it to my wife in order to pull me out and get me to join that

19 column which was going back. And they did the same to my wife's brother

20 and some other youngish men, Croats from the neighbouring villages. I

21 didn't know them that well.

22 Q. Okay. I just need to ask you about the group that you met up

23 with. You said that they had -- I believe you said that they had already

24 been separated, and they were heading back toward Maline. How do you know

25 this?

Page 920

1 A. Because those civilians who had gone before us were not going

2 back. It was just these young men who have been separated out from those

3 civilians. They were heading back. They stopped next to our group, and

4 then they pulled us out of our group and put us together with them, and

5 then we set out towards Poljanice, towards Bikosi.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: About how many of these young men were there who

7 were separated from the other group, more or less?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were between 15 and 19. I

9 don't know exactly, around 15.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And how many from your group were separated

11 to join that group, that group of young men?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Six, seven who joined their group.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. So then six from your group to join them.

14 Thank you very much, Madam.


16 Q. Did you know anyone from that group that you met?

17 A. I knew Zdravko Pranjes. He was from the village of Maline. I

18 knew him. We had come across each other. We weren't on close terms or

19 anything like that.

20 Q. Did you recognise anyone else from that group, other than this

21 person?

22 A. Later on, not in that group. No, I didn't know them that well. I

23 knew people by sight, but I didn't really know them.

24 Q. So, at the point where the number of you were taken from your

25 group to join that group, can you tell us who was escorting the group at

Page 921

1 that point, what types of persons?

2 A. Escorting that group, Mujahedin and the Army of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And the local people or the people from Bosnia were

4 wearing camouflage uniforms, and they had stockings over their heads with

5 slits for the eyes, like ninjas.

6 Q. Can you explain to us why it's your belief that they were the

7 local Muslim soldiers?

8 A. Well, those people --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson is on his feet. Just a second, sir.

10 Yes, Mr. Robson.

11 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, sir. I would be grateful if my learned

12 friend could rephrase that question, because in her last question she

13 referred to the local Muslim soldiers. That terminology has not been used

14 so far.

15 MS. SARTORIO: I understand, Your Honour. I will rephrase the

16 question, if I may.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MS. SARTORIO: Okay.

19 Q. Sir, you just -- you stated a minute ago that the persons were

20 with the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that you believe that they were in

21 that army, the ones that had the ninja masks that you mentioned. Can you

22 tell us why you believe that they were with the Army of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. They had insignia showing that they were members of the Army of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they were wearing masks because these young men

Page 922

1 from those villages who had grown up among them would recognise them.

2 That's why they wore those masks. They were from neighbouring villages.

3 Q. Did you hear them speaking?

4 A. They talked among themselves, yes. They were talking among

5 themselves. I didn't hear what about.

6 Q. Could you hear what language they were speaking, if you knew?

7 A. Some spoke in a language I didn't understand; probably Arabic, a

8 language that hasn't been used in our parts.

9 Q. I'm talking about the men with the masks, whether you are able to

10 tell the Chamber whether you recognised the language they were speaking.

11 A. They were speaking Croatian, like me. While there was Yugoslavia,

12 we used to call the language "Serbo-Croatian." Those in the camouflage

13 uniforms spoke the same language I did. The Mujahedin did not wear masks.

14 Their faces were exposed.

15 Q. And when the Mujahedin spoke, did you recognise their language?

16 A. No. All they could say to us was "Bojovnik" and "Ustasha

17 Bojovnik," meaning the Croat word for "Fighter." But when they spoke

18 among themselves, I couldn't understand their language.

19 Q. Okay. Now can you please tell us where the group started to go?

20 A. That group set out towards the village of Poljanice, back towards

21 Bikosi. Shall we mark it?

22 Q. Yes. You can mark where you walked to next, if you don't mind,

23 with a "5," please -- Oh, no, "4." Sorry.

24 A. Let me just say, while we were going towards Poljanice, between

25 the place we were separated off and Poljanice, we met a girl who was

Page 923

1 walking with her aunt. She was wearing a camouflage uniform, and she had

2 a Red Cross armband. Her name was Ana Pranjes, and her aunt was there,

3 whose nickname was Turka [phoen]. I knew them. A soldier approached her

4 and told her to take off her armband. She refused to do so, then a

5 Mujahedin approached her. She was wearing a chain around her neck. He

6 tore off the chain. She probably had a cross on the chain. He threw it

7 away, the cross, and he put the chain into her -- into his pocket; then he

8 tore off her armband and made her join our column.

9 Q. Could you please mark a "4" where this event happened?

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Now, let me ask you this, sir: Was anyone in your group, not the

12 escorts, not the army, the soldiers from the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

13 but did anyone in your group become belligerent or argumentative at all

14 during this time?

15 A. At that point in time, no. I just remember that one soldier said,

16 "Now we've taken your shrine at Guca Gora. We'll burn it." He said that

17 to the other one, and the other one said, "I'm not interested in that."

18 Q. Now, what happened next, if anything?

19 A. The column moved on towards Poljanice; and when we arrived in

20 Poljanice, we met a group of wounded, four or five of them, and four or

21 five others who were assisting them, because some had crutches, others had

22 sticks, and so on. And there was a woman who had been wounded in the leg

23 the day before. She was about 60 years old. She was on a stretcher. And

24 they sent back that group of wounded with us to the village of Bikosi.

25 When we set out from there, a BH Army soldier told me that someone

Page 924

1 had been shot through both legs, and they had used a wooden fence to carry

2 him, and he told me to take over and carry him with three others. I

3 carried him through a wooded area. We got out onto a meadow where there

4 were BH Army trenches.

5 Q. Could you please mark a "5" on the map where this event happened,

6 where you picked up the wounded soldier?

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Now, I need to ask you, when you say you came upon a group of

9 wounded, could you describe, other than the woman you described, were the

10 rest of the group men, were they soldiers, were they civilians, if you can

11 tell us?

12 A. They were soldiers. The brother of one of them had been wounded,

13 and they two others were helping him because his leg was shattered. They

14 were soldiers.

15 Q. Soldiers from what force?

16 A. HVO.

17 Q. Now, could you just tell us briefly, is Poljanice a village or is

18 it an area? Can you please describe to the Judges what it is?

19 A. It's a small village, a hamlet called Poljanice.

20 Q. Now, what happened next, sir?

21 A. We left Poljanice. I was carrying Srecko Bobas. The group

22 stopped on a meadow, and on the meadow were BH Army trenches. The column

23 stopped. About 12 men were separated off from the first group and made to

24 stand next to the trenches. They stood there in a row in front of the

25 trench. There were three or four of them, a Mujahedin and three locals.

Page 925

1 And there was some sort of misunderstanding among them, because I thought

2 they would kill someone us right there on that spot.

3 They discussed something and then they sent that group back to our

4 column, and we went on towards Bikosi two by two. When we set out towards

5 Bikosi, another four were carrying Srecko Bobas behind me. I wasn't

6 carrying him anymore at that point, because this man had issued an order

7 that another four men should carry him.

8 The column moved towards Bikosi. We stopped for a while below

9 Bikosi, and then we set out again. It was a brief stop.

10 Q. May I stop you briefly. Could you please mark with the number "6"

11 where the stop was by the trenches?

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. And now could you mark with a "7" where you just mentioned this

14 brief stop occurred?

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Thank you, sir. You may continue with what occurred next.

17 A. The group walked on towards the village of Bikosi. To the left,

18 there was a road leading to Maline, but we went straight ahead. Bikosi is

19 a little hamlet behind Maline.

20 When we got to the houses, on the right-hand side were two

21 stables, on the left-hand side were houses. There were wooden fences on

22 both sides, the left and the right. The road was an asphalt road.

23 When we arrived at the point between the stables and the houses,

24 Mijo Tavic had an attack. He had a fit. He was ill. He suffered from

25 epilepsy, and he had an epileptic fit. He started shouting out. And when

Page 926

1 he yelled out, I turned around to tell the BH Army soldier that this man

2 was ill, but they opened bursts of fire right away.

3 The one that was shooting next to me held his rifle low down. He

4 was shooting towards the asphalt, but he wounded me in my left leg. When

5 I saw people falling down, I put my hands on my head and I fell down

6 towards the right. I lay down on the asphalt. I kept quiet, and I peeped

7 out through my fingers. On the right-hand side, there was a fence. And

8 an HVO soldier was jumping over the fence and he was shot, and he remained

9 lying over the fence.

10 The BH Army soldier behind me who was shooting, he shouted out,

11 and he said that he was wounded in the stomach because probably had a

12 bullet had ricocheted off the asphalt. He shouted out, too, and I didn't

13 dare raise my head anymore. I lay quietly until they started walking

14 among us and shooting people in the head one by one. I thought I would

15 not survive this.

16 Q. Thank you. I just need to ask you a couple of questions.

17 When you say there was -- when the firing started, can you tell

18 me, was it a burst of fire or was it single shots?

19 A. At first, there were bursts, as many bullets -- a hail of fire, as

20 many bullets as they could fire. And then once the bursts stopped, then

21 there were individual shots, and you could hear the wounded people moan.

22 And I assumed that when we could hear those isolated shots, they didn't go

23 in any order, because the man next to me was shot in the head and I was

24 splattered by the blood from his head. And I hunkered down because I was

25 waiting for the bullet to come, but he left me alone; and then they would

Page 927

1 just fire those isolated shots.

2 So I just lay there maybe ten minutes. I don't know how long it

3 took because I was terrified and all. I was silent, and then all of a

4 sudden I could hear this voice saying, "Help. Is there anyone alive here?

5 I've been wounded." I waited a little while because I was afraid there

6 would be some more shooting; and when no more shots came, I put my head up

7 and I saw that some people leapt up, so I did, and I was amazed to see

8 there were some people still alive.

9 I leapt over a fence that was to my right, although I was wounded;

10 and then I ran down to the -- through the meadows to the left. And to the

11 right there was a Vranjaca hill, there was a large amount of troops, and

12 they started firing on me and the four people running behind me. We were

13 running towards the village Podstinje.

14 Q. Can I interrupt you, sir? Thank you.

15 I need to take you back a bit where you said that an HVO soldier

16 jumped over the fence. Okay. Can you tell us where, if the fence was in

17 front, or behind you, or on the side, and whether when this person what

18 you saw, did he run before the firing started?

19 A. The fence was to my right; and as I fell down, I was very close to

20 the fence, my head was close to it. And my hands were on my eyes, so I

21 just peeked through my fingers. And during the shooting, the bursts, he

22 tried to jump over it and he was shot, and he remained lying there over

23 the fence.

24 Q. Were you able to see whether, when he had run away or started to

25 run away, whether he was running towards anyone who was shooting at him?

Page 928

1 A. He couldn't run anywhere because the fence was right there. He

2 wanted to jump over the fence in order to save his life. Had he been able

3 to do so, he would have survived, probably.

4 Q. Okay. Now, could you please put an "8" on the map where this

5 event occurred, please?

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Now, could you please describe to the Judges the route you took

8 and how long it took you to reach safety, and then what happened?

9 A. We were moving from Bikosi towards Podstinje, that's a village. I

10 was fleeing towards the village, and the other four were fleeing behind

11 me. And when they caught up with me, there was a young man, Zeljo Puselja

12 from Podavi. I knew him by sight, and we went with him to a meadow

13 further down from Podstinje. There were some trees there, and we tried to

14 dress our wounds. A man, young man had a wound. He was wounded in the

15 ribs. So I stripped my vest, because it was not really cold, and we used

16 my vest to bind our wounds. A man by the name of Puselja was hit in the

17 left hip, I think, and this young boy who was with me, I think he was not

18 wounded at all. A bullet just went very, very close to him and singed

19 him.

20 And there's a river called Bila that flows next to Mehuric. One

21 man wearing civilian clothes and one man wearing military clothes came out

22 of the water, and they said, "Surrender, lie down. It's over." And I

23 immediately started running. The kid ran after me. So we ran to the

24 left and then we crossed Bila, and we ran towards Fazlic, crossing the

25 road leading to Mehuric.

Page 929

1 And near the village of Fazlici, about 500 metres -- from a

2 distance of about 500 metres, two bursts were fired at us, and then we

3 went to right to the village of Orasac.

4 Q. May I stop you for a moment?

5 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour?

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just need some clarification here.

7 You said at page 78, line 1: "A man, a young man, had a wound.

8 He was wounded in the ribs. So I stripped my vest, because it was not

9 really cold, and we used my vest to bind our wounds."

10 Then you also say: "A man by the name of Puselja was hit in the

11 right hip, I think, and this young boy that was with me," now, I imagine

12 you're referring now to Zeljo, "he was not wounded at all."

13 I'm not sure. First, you said he was injured in the rib. Now you

14 say he was not wounded at all. What was actually the correct situation at

15 that point? Was he wounded or was he not wounded?

16 A. Darko Puselja was wounded in the shoulder and the rib area. Zeljo

17 Puselja was wounded in the arm, close to the elbow, through the elbow.

18 All four of us were wounded. Just the kid was not wounded.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's becoming a little more complicated now. Was

20 Zeljo Puselja wounded at all?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was wounded in the right arm.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not on the rib? He was not wounded on the rib?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Zeljo Puselja was not wounded

24 on the rib. He was wounded in the arm, and Darko Puselja was wounded in

25 the rib and the shoulder.

Page 930

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Darko Puselja was. Thank you so much.

2 Thank you very much, Madam Sartorio. I'm sorry about that.

3 MS. SARTORIO: No, that's okay, Your Honour.

4 I need to go back. It appears in the record -- I thought that the

5 witness had mentioned the name of the kid, and we can either go back to

6 the record or I'll just ask him if he knows the name of the kid he was

7 referring to.

8 Q. Do you know the name of the kid that you have been referring to?

9 A. The one that had not been wounded? Pavo Barac.

10 Q. And could you tell us how old he was, if you know?

11 A. I think he was not older than 16 at the time. I think he was 16.

12 Q. On the map, sir, could you draw the line that shows the route that

13 you took and then draw a number "9" where the incident -- where you

14 dressed your wounds?

15 A. Should I draw a line leading towards the figure, or what do you

16 want me to do?

17 Q. Yes. From number 8, did you just go straight across to number 9,

18 or just indicate for the record the direction that you went in.

19 A. We were moving from this figure 8 to figure 9. That was the

20 direction, and that's where we dressed our wounds.

21 Q. And then from 9, which direction did you go in?

22 A. Then from figure 9, we moved towards the village of Fazlici and

23 there is the village of Orasac. I can't see it here. This is where we

24 spent one day and one night in a pine wood, and then we went to Guca Gora.

25 Q. And what happened in Guca Gora?

Page 931

1 A. While we were at Orasac, we thought that we could be saved once we

2 reached Guca Gora, because at that time we didn't know that Guca Gora had

3 already been captured, that it had fallen. We moved at around 9.00 or

4 8.00 -- 9.00 or 10.00 from Orasac to Guca Gora, and we reached Guca Gora

5 at around 3.00 or 4.00 a.m. We saw that there was nobody there, that all

6 the houses were deserted. And as it got light, we realised that we

7 shouldn't be there, and we went towards Nova Bila.

8 Q. I realise that these places aren't on the map, but can you tell

9 us, in relation to Fazlici, where Guca Gora is, if it's to the north or to

10 the east?

11 A. East or northeast, I really can't tell you now.

12 Q. Can you tell us how far in kilometres it is?

13 A. From Fazlici? From Orasac or Fazlici?

14 Q. Fazlici.

15 A. Well, the road goes through Donje Maline, and maybe five or six

16 kilometres, five, six kilometres, something like that.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe Map number 9 might be able to help you.

18 MS. SARTORIO: But we need to capture this image on this map first

19 before we move; otherwise, we lose the image. Thank you.

20 May that be entered as an exhibit as well?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map on the screen is admitted into evidence.

22 May it please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 129.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. And, Your Honour, do you want to conduct the

Page 932

1 questioning or would you like me to ask the witness about it?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: No. You carry on, and I guess you're about five

3 minutes from your hour.

4 MS. SARTORIO: I have just two more questions, Your Honour, as

5 soon as we can get to when the witness arrived at safety.

6 Could you put up Map 9, please.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: While we are looking for the next map,

8 Mr. Witness, can I ask you if, at the time you were fleeing off the next

9 day from Guca Gora, were you then by that time alone with the kid? There

10 was only two of you or were there others from the original group?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was just the two of us, and

12 the other three were captured at Postinje, where we were trying to bind

13 our wounds. These two men managed to capture them, and we were the only

14 ones who managed to flee towards Fazlic and then to Orasac, where we spent

15 this one night and one day.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.


18 Q. Sir, looking at the map in front of you, do you see Guca Gora on

19 this map?

20 A. Yes, I can see it here.

21 Q. Would you circle it, please, and put a number "1"?

22 A. Should I circle the whole thing?

23 Q. Sorry. Just put a number "1."

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Was this your final destination?

Page 933

1 A. No. We moved on towards the village of Kula, towards Nova Bila,

2 in fact, but we encountered a soldier there. I think he was a BH Army

3 soldier. He was there on the hill, and we were in the meadow and we ran

4 through a grove. And he suddenly stood up in front of us, and we didn't

5 dare to proceed forward. So we moved back to Guca Gora, where we made a

6 plan. We wanted to go by way of Vlasic out of Guca Gora.

7 We saw that there were many soldiers there, however; and then we

8 moved towards Han Bila. There is a Croat village there Kosovo; and then

9 as we moved to Han Bila, two men, two soldiers saw us from Guca Gora and

10 they ran after us. And then as we walked towards Han Bila, from a grove

11 shots were fired at us, so we went to the village of Sarici. We went

12 right, took a right turn.

13 There was a Croat flag flying in the village of Sarici. There

14 were three soldiers up there on the hill. And we saw that this was the

15 HVO, and I knew a man from Guca Gora. His name was Zlaja, that's the name

16 I knew him by. And they asked us what happened, and then we told them;

17 and then I was transferred to the Nova Bila hospital to get treatment for

18 my wounds.

19 Q. Sir, were you ever contacted by anyone from the Army of Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina about this incident?

21 A. No, never.

22 Q. Did you ever give a statement to the news media?

23 A. I think I may have been interviewed by the BBC. I think it was in

24 1993, maybe two or three days after the events.

25 Q. And did you ever give a statement to any human rights organisation

Page 934

1 about what happened to you on that day?

2 A. I think I made two statements of that kind.

3 Q. Do you know if one statement was recorded?

4 A. I don't know whether the BBC guys -- well, I don't know what they

5 did, how they went about it. We were in front of a house, and that was

6 all very short. I never saw any of the footage or anything.

7 Q. Your interviews or your statement that you gave to human rights

8 organisation, do you know if that statement was audio-recorded?

9 A. I don't think so.

10 MS. SARTORIO: Well, Your Honour, I'd like to just play 30 seconds

11 of a tape, to see if the witness can identify anything on the tape. We

12 have to do it in closed session because it's an international

13 organisation, Rule 70.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Before we do that, you're going to do

15 something about the map on the screen?

16 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. Sorry, Your Honour. I would like to freeze

17 that map and enter it as an exhibit, please.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: That map is entered as an exhibit. May it please

19 be given an exhibit number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit 130.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 MS. SARTORIO: This is the last question I have, Your Honour, for

23 the witness.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


Page 935

1 Q. While we're waiting for the tape to come on, could you tell me

2 approximately --

3 MS. SARTORIO: We have to go into private session at this point.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 936

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session now.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 Mr. Robson.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Robson:

21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Marijanovic. My name is Nicholas Robson, and

22 I'll be asking you some questions for the Defence this afternoon.

23 Mr. Marijanovic, I'm a little bit unclear about your last answers.

24 It's right, is it not, that on the 12th of June, just some four days after

25 the incident in Bikosi, you gave a statement about what happened to some

Page 937

1 international human rights officers. Do you remember meeting with

2 international human rights officers?

3 A. I don't.

4 Q. Do you remember going to the HQ of the British Battalion in Vitez

5 soon after the events of 8th of June?

6 A. I remember that I was there, yes.

7 Q. And you spoke with some members of the International Community

8 whilst you were there; is that right?

9 A. Yes, I did. Yeah.

10 Q. Is it possible that those officers recorded what you said or took

11 a statement of what you told them?

12 A. I don't think they did, but I don't remember, really.

13 Q. Okay. You've confirmed that there were other occasions when you

14 gave statements about what happened at Maline and Bikosi; that's right,

15 isn't it?

16 A. There were some statements. I don't think that they were recorded

17 or written down anywhere.

18 Q. Well, do you remember attending at the Human Rights Centre in

19 Medjugorje in October of 1993? Have you heard of that Human Rights

20 Centre, first of all?

21 A. No. I've never heard of it, and I didn't go there.

22 Q. How about the Commission for the Verification of War Crimes in the

23 Treaty of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna; have you ever heard of

24 that commission?

25 A. I didn't hear anything about any of those commissions.

Page 938

1 Q. So, if I understand you correctly, you've never heard of the Human

2 Rights Centre at Medjugorje, and you've never heard of the Commission for

3 the Verification of War Crimes?

4 A. I did hear about this Human Rights Centre, but I wasn't in

5 Medjugorje. I didn't go to Medjugorje.

6 Q. You can confirm, however, that you were interviewed by an

7 investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal; is that

8 right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you gave a statement to that investigator in September of the

11 year 2000; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And am I correct in saying that your memory of the events at

14 Maline and Bikosi would be much better than when you gave -- when you gave

15 that statement back in 2000 than it is now some 14 years after the event;

16 would you agree?

17 A. That the statement was better? Well, I wouldn't agree with that,

18 because I was dazed at the time.

19 Q. At what time were you dazed?

20 A. Well, immediately after the first statement that I gave, I was

21 depressed. My wife and children were in captivity. I didn't know

22 anything about their fate.

23 Q. You see, I would suggest to you that you've given several

24 statements, at least three, if not more. You're mentioning now that you

25 were dazed. Let's be clear. Are you saying you were dazed when you gave

Page 939

1 the statement to the OTP investigator in September 2000?

2 A. No. At that time, I was fine.

3 Q. So your recollection of the events would have been clear [Realtime

4 transcript read in error "clearer"] at the time you gave your statement to

5 the investigator; is that right?

6 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I object to that. Clearer than what?

7 MR. ROBSON: I said "clear" rather than clearer.

8 MS. SARTORIO: Oh, it's written down "clearer."


10 Q. Just to clarify that, the question I asked you: Your recollection

11 of the events relating to Maline and Bikosi would have been clear when you

12 gave your statement to the investigator in September of the year 2000; is

13 that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I'd now like to turn to the events at the start of the war that

16 you spoke about. It's right that in March 1992, the Serb forces had

17 started digging trenches around your village of Paklarevo and in the

18 general area of the Travnik Municipality; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And those Serbs had set up positions upon Mount Vlasic?

21 A. At the edge of Vlasic, yes, in the direction of Travnik and Turbe.

22 Q. In May 1992, you yourself were hit by mortar shrapnel, and you

23 were wounded, seriously wounded; is that right?

24 A. Yes. It wasn't one piece but ten pieces of shrapnel. A shell

25 landed right behind me.

Page 940

1 Q. And while you were recovering, you and your family moved to Maline

2 village, which is also in Travnik Municipality; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And the reason you went there was because Maline village was

5 quieter. There was not --

6 A. It was further away from the Serb positions, so I thought it was

7 better.

8 Q. Maline village is made up of two parts, isn't it? Gornje Maline,

9 the upper part, is where the Croats lived; and Donje Maline, the lower

10 part, is where the Bosnian Muslims lived; is that right?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. And when you moved to Maline village, at that time, both the

13 Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Croats had organised separate defensive

14 lines facing towards the Serbs on Mount Vlasic; would you agree?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You mentioned Mujahedin in your evidence?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Am I right in saying that you first saw them in the Travnik

19 Municipality at the end of 1992?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. You mentioned that you saw small groups of Mujahedin. From that,

22 do I take it, that there was more than one group of Mujahedin in the area,

23 in the Travnik Municipality?

24 A. Yes. There was more than one.

25 Q. Now, around that time, is it right to say that you noticed some of

Page 941

1 the local Bosnian Muslims join the members of the Arab Mujahedin and

2 started copying their appearance; for example, they started growing beards

3 and wearing similar clothing to the Mujahedin; is that right?

4 A. Yes, yes, that happened, too.

5 Q. In the spring of 1993, once you'd moved to Maline village, it's

6 right, isn't it, that tensions between the Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian

7 Muslims started to increase, the relations deteriorated; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And is it right that around March 1993, a new Croatian Defence

10 Council brigade was formed in your area and had a headquarters at the Guca

11 Gora monastery?

12 A. I don't know much about that. It's possible, because there was an

13 HVO, and I'm sure they had a command somewhere.

14 Q. Do you recall most of the Bosnian Croat men from your village and

15 around the area who were fit for military service became members of that

16 brigade; is that right?

17 A. Yes, they did.

18 Q. And soon after the establishment of that brigade, is it right to

19 say that the HVO members from Maline village started establishing military

20 positions facing the Bosnian Army?

21 A. The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina set up lines towards them, and they

22 set up lines towards them.

23 Q. So, at that point in time, is it right to say that the members of

24 the Croatian Defence Council from Maline and the surrounding villages no

25 longer went to the defensive lines on Vlasic, facing the Serbs, but now

Page 942

1 went to the new positions around their village, facing towards the Bosnian

2 Army?

3 A. I don't know much about that because I didn't go to the lines. I

4 was wounded.

5 Q. Let's turn to the events on the 8th of June. You've told us that

6 an attack commenced between 4.00 and 5.00 that day, and it was launched by

7 the Bosnian Army; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You said the attack lasted for some ten hours, until the Bosnian

10 Army took the village; is that so?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. And there were a large number of HVO soldiers located around

13 Maline village that day, weren't there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And those HVO soldiers tried to defend the village from the

16 Bosnian Army attack, didn't they?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, when the Bosnian Army managed to take the village, it's

19 correct to say that some of the HVO soldiers were able to escape towards

20 Guca Gora; is that right?

21 A. Yes, they did, towards Guca Gora and Nova Bila.

22 Q. Now, you've explained to the Court that during the attack you were

23 in the cellar of your -- it your brother's house; is that right?

24 A. It was the house of my wife's brother. My family house, where I

25 was born, was far away from there.

Page 943

1 Q. Okay. And you spent most of the time during the attack in the

2 cellar with your family and also your wife's brother's family; is that

3 right?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. And, at around midday, somebody from the Bosnian Army shouted for

6 all the Bosnian Croat villagers to come out of the houses; is that right?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. You, yourself, noticed some villagers coming out of the houses and

9 surrendering, and then you decided to come out and surrender as well; is

10 that right?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. And you came out of the house with your family, and you met up

13 with the other Bosnian Croats in a yard in front of a house in the

14 village; is that right?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. When the Bosnian Army troops rounded up the Bosnian Croat

17 villagers, it's fair to say that they treated you properly, didn't they?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And when the Bosnian Army gathered you all together, that was in

20 the center of the village and you gathered together with other Bosnian

21 Croats; is that right?

22 A. Not all of them, but with some of them apart.

23 Q. In your evidence, you've mentioned that you gathered together with

24 40 or 50 people, is that right, civilians, you mentioned?

25 A. Yes.

Page 944

1 Q. Can I suggest to you that amongst that group there were also

2 Bosnian Croat soldiers who were wearing uniform as well?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That's right. At this stage, one of the Bosnian Army soldiers

5 ordered your group to start walking towards Mehurici; is that so?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So, in your group at that time, how many people were there? About

8 40 or 50?

9 A. Yes, about that number.

10 Q. And you walked from Gornje Maline all the way to Poljanice

11 village, escorted by three or four Bosnian Army soldiers; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You actually passed through Poljanice village and continued in the

14 direction of Mehurici; is that so?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And am I right in saying that it was at that point that you came

17 across another group of 15 to 19 Croat men walking in the opposite

18 direction, towards the direction of Bikosi; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, that group of Bosnian Croat men, they were escorted by some

21 other people, weren't they?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It's right to say, isn't it, that the men, the persons escorting

24 the Bosnian Croats, were four Mujahedin?

25 A. They were both Mujahedin and members of the Army of Bosnia and

Page 945

1 Herzegovina who spoke Croatian.

2 Q. Well, that's not right, is it? Those men, escorting those Bosnian

3 Croats, there were two foreign men and two local Mujahedin; isn't that so?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And the local Mujahedin, you mentioned, had green masks on their

6 faces and they looked like ninjas; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. They weren't dressed like ordinary Bosnian Army soldiers, were

9 they?

10 A. Some were and some were not.

11 Q. Now, those four men, who I've described as Mujahedin, they stopped

12 your group, didn't they?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Am I right in understanding that you were towards the back of your

15 group, so you had difficulties in seeing what was going on exactly; is

16 that right?

17 A. Yes, I was at the back.

18 Q. Can you help us with this: Those four men that I have described

19 as Mujahedin, it's right, isn't it, that they threatened the Bosnian Army

20 soldiers that were escorting your group with their weapons?

21 A. They -- I don't know what they did among themselves; but when they

22 separated off 12, they had some kind of misunderstanding. But what it was

23 about, I don't know.

24 Q. Well, those four men, they separated the men, you've mentioned six

25 or seven men, from your group of Bosnian Croats; is that right?

Page 946

1 A. They separated off about 12 men.

2 Q. And the 12 men that they separated from the group, were they all

3 of military service age?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson, will that be a convenient time or not?

6 MR. ROBSON: Well, Your Honour, I've certainly got plenty more

7 questions, so I think that is good.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can imagine.

9 So this would be as good a time to stop as any other?

10 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour, indeed.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 Court adjourns to tomorrow at 9.00 in Courtroom I.

13 Court adjourned.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Friday, the 20th day of

16 July, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.