Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1791

1 Tuesday, 28 August 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody.

7 Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 This is Case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. May we have the appearances

11 for the morning.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Good morning, Your Honours, counsel and everyone in and around the

14 courtroom. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, Matthias Neuner, Aditya

15 Menon, and our case manager Alma Imamovic.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 For the Defence.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

19 Vasvija Vidovic with Nicholas Robson for the Defence, with Lejla Gluhic

20 and Lana Deljkic as assistants.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 Mr. Delalic, may I just remind you that you're still bound by the

23 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth,

24 the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

25 Thank you very much.

Page 1792

1 Any questions arising from questions from the Bench for the

2 Prosecution?

3 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no questions, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 Defence?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I have, Your Honours; with your

7 leave.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Madam Vidovic, and you may be

9 seated.

10 Further Cross-examination by Madam Vidovic:

11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Delalic. I'm going to ask you a few more

12 questions.

13 Before the questions asked by Their Honours in your yesterday's

14 testimony, you never mentioned that the Mujahedin were fighting side by

15 side with you on the 8th of June, 1993; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you mention it or didn't you mention it?

18 A. I didn't.

19 Q. Thank you. His Honour, Judge Moloto, page 97, lines 23 to 95, and

20 page 98, lines 1 to 4 of unofficial transcripts, suggested to you the

21 following:

22 "If they did not operate together with you, it was your duty, as

23 the Bosnian Army, to protect those that you were guarding; is that so?"

24 Your answer was:

25 "We protected them, as far as I know, but if we failed in so

Page 1793

1 doing --"

2 But you failed to finish your answer. You were interrupted by His

3 Honour Judge Moloto asking you the following:

4 "Given that you omitted to provide protection for them, you are

5 legally liable; is that correct?"

6 And then a little bit further on on the same page, lines 11 to 13

7 on the same page, the question was:

8 "Given the BH Army also has legal liability to secure safety for

9 these people, and if there were not --"

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak more slowly.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are asked to speak slowly because the

12 interpreter is not able to cope up with you, Counsel.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I

14 apologise both to you and the interpreters.

15 Q. What I wanted to ask you now is the following: The BH Army, at

16 the beginning of the war, adopted its own rules relating to command

17 responsibility; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. It did not apply the rules of the former Yugoslav People's Army

20 but rather their own rules of engagement?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. According to the BH Army rules that you, yourself, working in the

23 security applied, the army commanders were able only to prosecute their

24 subordinate if they commit any crimes; am I right?

25 A. Yes, you are.

Page 1794

1 MR. NEUNER: I don't want to interrupt my learned friend, but if

2 she could please explain what the relevance or what the relationship

3 between her current line of questioning and the Judge's questioning is,

4 please.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may respond to this. Your

6 Honours asked the witness about the legal responsibility for ensuring the

7 safety of those men, and there couldn't be any more direct link than this

8 one.

9 MR. NEUNER: But you're referring here to the rules of the JNA and

10 so on. What is the direct relationship?

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I mentioned the fact

12 that Bosnia-Herzegovina adopted its own rules instead of applying the JNA

13 rules, because the issue here is the responsibility of the army for the

14 crimes committed, and the witness was working in security and in the

15 process applied these rules, and this directly stems from the question

16 asked by the Bench.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. So my last question was about the army rules that you, yourselves,

20 being involved in security, applied. The army commanders were entitled

21 only to prosecute their subordinates if they committed any crimes; am I

22 right?

23 A. Yes, you are.

24 Q. In other words, it was your duty to investigate whether any

25 subordinates was a member of your unit and committed a crime and thereby

Page 1795

1 undertake certain measures against such a person if he did that; am I

2 right?

3 A. Yes, you are.

4 Q. In this particular circumstances, that is, the events of the 8th

5 of June, 1994, you established that your subordinates had not committed a

6 crime, but rather that it was committed by the Mujahedin; am I right?

7 A. Yes, you are.

8 Q. You did not consider them your subordinates; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. And they were not subordinate to you for that matter; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You mean you were not -- they were not subordinated to you?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. You reported about this to your superior command; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You also told us that the civilian police was also notified about

18 this incident; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Furthermore, you also said that the civilian police had filed a

21 criminal report against an unidentified perpetrator; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mr. Delalic, just one minor issue. You had learned about the

24 abduction of the victims being done in the most brutal way by members of

25 your unit's military police?

Page 1796

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. At least one of these policemen had -- Your Honour, my colleague

3 has drawn my attention to page 5, lines 23 to 25, again that the abduction

4 was carried out by members of your units. Can we please clarify this,

5 Witness?

6 The Mujahedin abducted, in the most brutal way, the prisoners from

7 the people who were escorting this group of prisoners; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. One of them had a rifle barrel put in his mouth. That was one of

10 your military policemen; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. This policeman, as a result of shock, has fallen ill, seriously

13 ill, and he never recovered; am I right?

14 A. Yes, you are.

15 MR. NEUNER: If I can just ask my learned colleague again the last

16 two or three questions, how did they arise out of the questions of the

17 Judges? We are talking here about facts of the abduction, that rifles are

18 put into the mouth of others. I don't see a link to the Judge's questions

19 here.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May I answer, Your Honours?

22 There was mention of the measures taken against the abductors, and

23 the witness responded to your questions about the possibility of providing

24 security to the victims. We are talking here now about the possibility

25 for the army to do something about this, and this also directly stems from

Page 1797

1 the question the Bench has asked.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

3 MR. NEUNER: I think in his examination-in-chief and also not in

4 your cross-examination, the witness has not touched the witness in what

5 details threats during the abduction had been carried out or not. This is

6 an issue which could have been covered on cross-examination, if necessary,

7 and I believe we are now taking the Judge's questions a little bit too far

8 in trying to establish these facts at this late point in time.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have any response, Madam Vidovic?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Your Honours.

11 The witness, in response to your yesterday's question, tried to

12 explain that they did everything that it was possible to be done, that

13 everything possible was done by this Army of the BH -- of this unit of the

14 BH Army, and this is the basis for my question. So they did everything

15 possible in order to provide the protection for the prisoners.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, if you have questions after your

17 learned colleague has finished, you may put questions to the witness, too.

18 You may proceed, ma'am.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

20 Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 Do you indeed have questions, sir?

23 MR. NEUNER: No further questions at this point in time.

24 Thank you to my learned friend.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Delalic. This brings us

Page 1798

1 to the end of this testimony. On behalf of the Trial Chamber and the

2 Chamber, I would just like to take the opportunity to thank you for

3 testifying and taking time off your busy schedule.

4 You are now excused. You may stand down, and may you travel

5 safely back home.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.

9 MR. ROBSON: Good morning, Your Honours.

10 As a result of questions put by the Judges in respect of this last

11 witness, I'd be very grateful for the opportunity just to raise a few

12 points in clarification for the record, if I may.

13 At the outset, if I could say that yet again the Defence readily

14 accepts that the Trial Chamber is entitled to seek clarification from the

15 witnesses, it appears, is also entitled to put questions with the aim of

16 finding out the truth of the matters that it hears. However, it is the

17 Defence's submission that a number of questions were put to the witness

18 that did not necessarily reflect the applicable law, nor the evidence

19 previously given by the witness during his examination-in-chief and

20 cross-examination on the transcript. And in such a situation we feel

21 obliged to raise these concerns to avoid the possibility of the Defence

22 being criticised at a later stage for not making its position known to the

23 Trial Chamber. So it's with that in mind that I raise these points.

24 The first point relates to the suggestion put several times by

25 Your Honour Judge Moloto, that following the kidnapping by the Mujahedin

Page 1799

1 of the Bosnian Croat detainees from the ABiH, that the army owed a legal

2 duty to pursue the Mujahedin. The Defence would accept that where a party

3 to a conflict detains persons, whether they be civilians or prisoners of

4 war, then a duty of care would indeed arise towards those detainees. That

5 is clear. However, in a situation where a third party intervenes and

6 removes those detainees from the control of that party, we do not accept

7 necessarily that a duty to pursue exists either in international law or in

8 Bosnian domestic law.

9 From the questions put by Your Honour, it was a little unclear to

10 us, but it may be the case that the Trial Chamber has already made a

11 determination, number one, that a legal duty to pursue did indeed exist at

12 that time and, number two, that there was, in fact, a failure by members

13 of the ABiH to comply with that legal duty and pursue the Mujahedin. If

14 the Trial Chamber has indeed made such a determination, it's not clear to

15 us what the consequences of such a breach of duty by the ABiH could be.

16 We would just like to note for the record that in the amended

17 indictment upon which General Delic is charged, he is not charged with

18 criminal responsibility in respect of a failure by his subordinates to

19 pursue those Mujahedin.

20 Your Honours, that's the first point. The second point I can deal

21 with briefly.

22 Again, this arises out of a further question put by Your Honour

23 Judge Moloto. Your Honour put to the witness that those people who

24 actually kidnapped the civilians or the prisoners of war, they had

25 actually been fighting side by side with the enemy. We've obviously heard

Page 1800

1 evidence about the events on the 8th of June, but the Defence would just

2 like to record that this witness, at no time during his earlier testimony,

3 mentioned that the Mujahedin or the persons wearing masks that accompanied

4 them had actually been fighting in the Bila Valley that day, and for the

5 record it's our understanding from the testimony of other Prosecution

6 witnesses, no such evidence has been given as well.

7 So, Your Honour, those are my submissions, as I say, as a matter

8 of clarification for the record.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you asking for a response?

10 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, if the Trial Chamber would like to

11 respond, we would certainly appreciate that, but we're not necessarily

12 expecting you to respond at this stage.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like to respond.

14 I would like just to say that on the first point, the Trial

15 Chamber has made no determination of any issue, either in law or in fact,

16 at this stage.

17 On the second point, I just want to say to you I don't think it

18 was ever put to the witness that he testified to the fact that the

19 Mujahedin fought side by side, so the question was not dependent on the

20 testimony of the witness, himself.

21 Thank you very much.

22 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

25 I have an idea that I would like to share with the parties,

Page 1801

1 because during the witnesses we have heard, mention has frequently been

2 made to -- a reference has frequently been made to the organisation of the

3 3rd Corps, and I wonder if the Bench could ask either the Prosecution or

4 both parties, really, to get together and agree on a chart, an

5 organisational chart, which would show how the 3rd Corps was really

6 organised. And of course also the level of command from the 3rd Corps up

7 to the Supreme Commander, the accused. In particular, I am not sure about

8 just what the relation is between the 306th Brigade and the 7th Muslim

9 Brigade, nor am I completely sure about the division of responsibility

10 between the 306th Brigade and the 314th Brigade, so I would be happy to

11 see, what do you call it, the organograms of how this was organised and

12 who was in charge of each of these brigades and battalions, if that is

13 possible. That would be of great assistance to the Bench.

14 I assume that it would be the responsibility of the Prosecution to

15 produce such a map. However, I would be unhappy if the Defence would feel

16 that this was being impressed upon them, upon you. So we can either ask

17 the Prosecution to bring us a draft and then you can comment on it, or if

18 you have time, to cooperate on the production of this piece of evidence.

19 Thank you.

20 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, if I could just state that there may be

21 a number of matters in dispute concerning the organisation between the

22 parties, but we'll obviously endeavour to see what common ground there is

23 and see if we can produce something useful to the Trial Chamber.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Exactly. That was exactly the reason why I

25 suggested some sort of cooperation, and we would be perfectly happy if the

Page 1802

1 differences between the parties could be somehow highlighted when you make

2 this organogram. Thanks.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 I appreciate the issue that Judge Harhoff has raised, and I can

6 assure the Chamber that I will endeavour to produce such an organogram in

7 cooperation with the Defence. I will also undertake a review of the

8 material that was admitted in the Hadzihasanovic case, as of course

9 General Hadzihasanovic was the 3rd Corps Commander for the majority of

10 1993, and there may very well be some documents or organograms that were

11 admitted in that case that we can also present to the Defence and perhaps

12 to the Trial Chamber. We will endeavour to present that material as soon

13 as we're able to identify it and speak with the Defence about it.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 Have you got the next witness, Mr. Mundis?

16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 The Prosecution calls Murat Softic, and my colleague, Mr. Menon,

18 will be leading the examination of this witness.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 WITNESS: MURAT SOFTIC

24 [The witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, sir. You may be seated. Thank

Page 1803

1 you.

2 Yes, Mr. Menon.

3 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Examination by Mr. Menon:

5 Q. Mr. Softic, could you please indicate your full name, your date of

6 birth, and your place of birth?

7 A. My name is Murat Softic. I was born on the 12th of October, 1948.

8 Q. And your place of birth?

9 A. Sjeverin.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Softic, were you ever a member of the

11 JNA?

12 A. Yes, I was.

13 Q. And when did you join the JNA?

14 A. After I finished my academy in 1972.

15 Q. And did you leave the JNA at a certain point?

16 A. I left it in late 1991.

17 Q. And what did you do when you left the JNA?

18 A. I joined the resistance in Sarajevo.

19 Q. Did you at some point join the Territorial Defence?

20 A. Yes, I did, immediately after its induction.

21 Q. And for how long were you a member of the Territorial Defence?

22 A. I cannot tell you exactly the period, but as soon as the

23 Territorial Defence started to be formed and transformed into the Army of

24 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I automatically joined the Army of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but that was a brief period and I can't tell you

Page 1804

1 exactly.

2 Q. And within the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which armed unit

3 were you a member of?

4 A. I was a member of the Novi Grad Territorial Defence in Sarajevo

5 and the Regional Defence Staff member.

6 Q. And did you join the 1st Corps at a certain point? Did you move

7 to that unit?

8 A. Yes, I did. After that, I joined the 1st Corps immediately after

9 it was established, because it was, in fact, the corps which was part of

10 the BH Army.

11 Q. And did you leave the 1st Corps at a certain point?

12 A. No, I didn't leave it. I was transferred to a different post. I

13 started working in 1993 as a chef de cabinet of the General Delic.

14 Q. And in relation to General Delic's appointment -- what position

15 did General Delic hold at the time that you were appointed his Chief of

16 Cabinet?

17 A. I cannot tell you exactly. That would be pure guesswork. I know

18 that when he took over the duty of the Commander, immediately thereafter I

19 think that I became the Chief of Cabinet.

20 Q. And was General Delic your immediate superior while you were his

21 Chief of Cabinet?

22 A. Yes. Yes he was.

23 Q. And where was General Delic's command post based when you became

24 his Chief of Cabinet?

25 A. In Sarajevo, until it was relocated to the command post of Kakanj.

Page 1805

1 Q. And while you were his Chief of Cabinet, where were you -- where

2 were you based?

3 A. Can you please repeat the question?

4 Q. Sure. While you were General Delic's Chief of Cabinet, where were

5 you based?

6 A. At the command HQ. Do you want me to tell you the address, the

7 street and the number?

8 Q. No. I just want the city or the town.

9 A. Sarajevo.

10 Q. And you indicated that at a certain point, that the Command

11 relocated to Kakanj. Were you a member of -- were you the Chief of

12 Cabinet to General Delic when this happened?

13 A. Yes, I did, for a while.

14 Q. And when the command post in Kakanj was established, where were

15 you based?

16 A. In Sarajevo.

17 Q. Now, what was the composition of General Delic's Cabinet in

18 Sarajevo?

19 A. There were three of us, and I, as the Chief of Cabinet, the person

20 who was in charge with -- of public relations, contact with the media, and

21 there was a girl who was typing, a typist.

22 Q. And do you know the names of the other two people that you've

23 referred to, the person in charge of public relations and the typist?

24 A. Zeljko Grubesic and Fatima -- I cannot remember her last name.

25 Q. And let me clarify one of the answers that you had given. The

Page 1806

1 command post in Kakanj, do you remember approximately when that was

2 established?

3 A. I think that this was in late 1993 and early 1994. I can't

4 remember the date exactly.

5 Q. And when did -- how long did you remain the Chief of Cabinet to

6 General Delic?

7 A. I think that I left the Commander's Cabinet in 1994. I cannot

8 recall the exact time, but I did transfer to another duty, and there are

9 exact orders on that, on the appointment, and you can check there. I think

10 this was in early 1994. I don't know which month, but that's when I left

11 the position of Chief of Cabinet and went to a different post also within

12 the army.

13 Q. Mr. Softic, what were your duties as General Delic's Chief of

14 Cabinet?

15 A. My duties mainly were to inform General Delic of all the documents

16 that were arriving and that at some point to -- in some way to be in

17 contact with the media, different structures, foreigners, political

18 structures, make appointments with political structures. That was the

19 work. Military/civilian structures, UNPROFOR, that was the extent of the

20 work.

21 Q. And you mentioned that you -- that in your capacity as Chief of

22 Cabinet, that you were responsible for informing General Delic of the

23 documents that arrived. Can you describe how you went about transmitting

24 these documents that arrived in the Cabinet for General Delic's attention?

25 A. A large number of documents would arrive at the office, really a

Page 1807

1 large number of documents, and I had to familiarise myself with the

2 documents, make summaries of what the contents were, and then in brief,

3 when the Commander had time, when I saw that he had time, I would go in

4 and then inform him about the contents of the documents. That was the

5 method of work that I applied when I was the Chief of Cabinet.

6 Q. And can you describe how -- well, let me rephrase the question.

7 The documents that General Delic signed, did he draft all of those

8 documents?

9 A. Some of them, he did, but I also drafted some documents.

10 Q. And how would you go about drafting a document for General Delic?

11 A. General Delic would summon me, and then he would tell me more or

12 less what needed to be written in relation to specific matters. I would

13 make notes and then draft the document, and then if I thought I would need

14 to add something to be more precise in the document, I would do that, and

15 then I would take it for his signature. If the General agreed, he would

16 sign it. If not, he would make changes, he would tell me which changes

17 would need to be made, and that's how the document was drafted. That's

18 how I would draft the document.

19 Q. And were you responsible for transmitting these documents to their

20 intended recipient?

21 A. Yes. I was responsible for dispatching it from the office. The

22 documents would be dispatched via the Communication Centre or they would

23 be sent by messenger. I would register the document. If it was my own

24 document or if it was a document from the Cabinet, it would be registered,

25 and after that it would be sent to the person it was addressed to.

Page 1808

1 Q. And you referred to the Communications Centre. Was the

2 Communications Centre within the Cabinet?

3 A. No, no.

4 Q. Where was the -- what was the relationship between the

5 Communications Centre and the Supreme Command?

6 A. What do you mean what was the relationship?

7 Q. What was the function of the Communications Centre in relation to

8 the Supreme Command?

9 A. The function of the Communications Centre was to send out the

10 documents that were received via the Communications Centre, and there were

11 specific or routine methods to send out these documents.

12 Q. Okay. And beyond yourself, were there other organs or persons

13 responsible for drafting documents for General Delic's signature?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. And can you indicate who these other organs or persons were?

16 A. They could have been Chiefs of Administration. They would write a

17 document that would need to be signed by General Delic, and then the

18 documents also would be sent for review and signature.

19 Q. And who were the -- in relation to the Chiefs of Administration,

20 who is the immediate subordinate of the Chiefs of the Administrations?

21 Excuse me, immediate superior of the Chiefs of the Administrations.

22 A. They were subordinated to the Commander, from what I know.

23 Q. And when you say "the Commander," who are you referring to?

24 A. Rasim Delic, General Rasim Delic.

25 Q. And what involvement did you have in ensuring that documents

Page 1809

1 drafted by these administrations got to General Delic?

2 A. Most of the time, yes.

3 Q. Can you describe what your -- what your involvement was in

4 ensuring that General Delic received these documents for his signature?

5 A. The Chiefs of Administration would usually call the office and

6 they would say that a document was coming, and then that the document

7 would need to be signed. Then it would come to my desk, and I would take

8 the document in for signature.

9 Q. And can you describe what would happen after General Delic

10 reviewed the document?

11 A. I would either call the person who drafted the document, and I

12 would let them know that the document was signed and that they could come

13 and pick it up.

14 Q. And in performing this function, did you -- did you witness

15 General Delic signing documents?

16 A. No, no, I didn't see it. I would just see that it was signed at

17 the end, and I would call the person who signed the document and call them

18 and say that the document was signed and that they could come and pick it

19 up and that it was available for further processing.

20 Q. And how many documents would you say that you saw which bore

21 General Delic's signature in your time as his Chief of Cabinet?

22 A. I really couldn't say, I really couldn't say.

23 Q. And why is that?

24 A. There's no reason in particular. I saw a lot of signed documents.

25 Q. And did you become familiar with General Delic's signature?

Page 1810

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you describe, Mr. Softic, what role you had, if any, in

3 relation to meetings that General Delic would have in Sarajevo?

4 A. Mostly, it had to do with scheduling meetings, summoning people to

5 meetings, stating what the subject of the meeting was. I think that

6 perhaps two or three times, I don't know, maybe once or twice, I attended

7 meetings, but I really couldn't attend meetings because there was so much

8 work to deal with, and people were coming and going. I really just had to

9 make sure that the meeting proceeded well. There was always a lot to do

10 in the -- in the Cabinet, a lot of things coming.

11 Q. And with whom were you responsible for scheduling meetings, in

12 terms of meetings with General Delic?

13 A. I know that there were mostly meetings with the Chiefs of

14 Administrations, mostly with them. There were also meetings with corps

15 commanders, but the corps commanders could rarely all attend and be there

16 all together. There were meetings with the Commander of the 1st Corps,

17 the Sarajevo Corps. I think mostly the meetings were with Chiefs of

18 Administration.

19 Q. And were the Chiefs of Administrations contact you -- always

20 contact you in order to meet with General Delic?

21 A. Yes, they did, but perhaps it was also different. Perhaps in the

22 way the meetings were scheduled directly, that the Chief of Administration

23 perhaps would directly call General Delic, saying that he wanted to talk.

24 Q. And you also refer to meetings with the corps commanders. Where

25 did these meetings generally take place? Let me rephrase the question.

Page 1811

1 When General Delic needed to meet the corps commanders, where

2 would he generally have those meetings?

3 A. In his office, from what I know, but again I say as far as the

4 corps commanders were concerned, I think that he went into the field a lot

5 and he met the corps commanders in the field. He wasn't able to convene

6 meetings with corps commanders in Sarajevo because the situation was such

7 and it dictated that things be done that way.

8 Q. And did the corps commanders have an obligation to submit written

9 reports to the Supreme Command Staff?

10 A. Not the corps commanders. The Operations Centre, the Chief of

11 Staff, actually, so the Operations Centre was the one that monitored the

12 situation in the field, and the Operations Centre would receive reports

13 from the corps. The Operations Centre, based on the reports from the

14 corps, would draft a compiled report which was then forwarded to the

15 Commander.

16 Q. And who was responsible for the Operations Centre?

17 A. The Chief of Staff.

18 Q. And who was the Chief of Staff responsible to?

19 A. General Delic.

20 MR. MENON: Thank you, Mr. Softic.

21 I would ask if the witness could be shown Exhibit P03068.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was it P03068?

23 MR. MENON: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

25 MR. MENON:

Page 1812

1 Q. If you could have a quick look at this document, Mr. Softic.

2 Can you please indicate to me -- for the record, can you please

3 indicate what this document concerns?

4 A. This is a document of the Supreme Command Staff of the Republic of

5 Bosnia and Herzegovina. I think that it was written by the Personnel

6 Administration. Yes, Personnel Administration. And I can see that

7 it's -- it bears the signature of General Rasim Delic.

8 Q. And can you describe what the document provides for? In other

9 words, what is the purpose of this document?

10 A. It orders the -- or regulates the appointment of Sakib Mahmuljin.

11 Q. The appointment as what?

12 A. The establishment post of Chief of Cabinet.

13 Q. Now, I'd like to direct your attention to the bottom left-hand

14 corner of the document and to the initials "RM." Do you know who those

15 initials would belong to?

16 A. I think that those are the initials of Rasim Mekic.

17 Q. And what position did Rasim Mekic hold in the Army of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, to the best of your recollection?

19 A. He did have a post. It was a post, but I don't recollect the

20 exact title. He was in the Personnel Administration.

21 Q. And why would his initials appear on this document?

22 A. Because he drafted the document.

23 Q. And, again, just for the purpose of the record, could you indicate

24 what the date of this document is?

25 A. It's the 15th of June, 1993.

Page 1813

1 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would ask that this document be marked

2 for identification.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is marked for identification. May it

4 please be given an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 270.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Counsel, what do you wish the Chamber to extract

7 from this document?

8 MR. MENON: Well, Your Honour, I think this document, the

9 relevance of this document, will become more apparent certainly as we go

10 through the course of this witness's testimony, but other witnesses will

11 comment upon the content of this document as well. And I'd be -- I'd be

12 reluctant to comment upon the substance of the document or certainly the

13 Prosecution's position on the document in front of this witness,

14 especially in light of the other documents which I intend to show to him.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well, then. I hope it will be clear in our

16 minds.

17 MR. MENON: Okay. Thank you very much.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just be clear myself, you don't want it

19 admitted?

20 MR. MENON: Your Honour, this is one of the exhibits that was

21 added pursuant to the Trial Chamber's decision, I believe, of the 7th of

22 July to add new exhibits, and so there's a restriction in that decision

23 which provides that exhibits -- the new exhibits may not be tendered into

24 evidence before the 1st of September.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 1814

1 MR. MENON: I would ask if the witness could be shown Exhibit

2 P01420.

3 Q. Mr. Softic, can you, for the purpose of the record, can you please

4 just indicate what this document concerns?

5 A. I can read that it says: "Authorising Mr. Sakib Mahmuljin, a

6 member of the 3rd Corps Command, to carry out, on behalf of the Commander

7 of the RBH Armed Forces General Staff necessary negotiations and arguments

8 with the representatives/commanders of the Mujahedin Unit from Zenica

9 regarding the following issues."

10 Should I repeat this?

11 Q. You referred -- in quoting from the document, you said

12 "arguments." Are you sure that's what it says in the document? Can you

13 read that line again?

14 A. "Authorising Mr. Sakib Mahmuljin, member of the 3rd Corps Command,

15 to carry out, on behalf of the Commander of the RBH Armed Forces General

16 Staff negotiations necessary negotiations and arrangements with the

17 representatives (commanders of the Mujahedin Unit from Zenica) regarding

18 the following issues."

19 Q. Thank you very much. And can you just note for the record what

20 the date of this document is?

21 A. The 23rd of July, 1993.

22 Q. And I direct your attention to a set of digits underneath the

23 heading of the document, and the digits are "1/297." Do you see those

24 digits? They're on the left-hand -- upper left-hand side of the document.

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 1815

1 Q. Can you indicate whether these digits have any significance, and

2 if so, what the significance is?

3 A. I'm not sure about the numbers. These numbers could be the file

4 number that I created, but I'm not sure. It's possible that that could be

5 just a filing number when I was the Chief of Cabinet. The document --

6 actually, that's all I can say about the numbers. I'm not sure if this

7 number is a number from the Commander's Cabinet, but I don't know. I'm

8 not really sure. I can't -- I can't be certain. This would amount to

9 guessing. I really don't know. It's been a long time. It could be from

10 the Cabinet, and it doesn't necessarily have to be. It's very hard to say

11 now.

12 Q. Did the Cabinet have -- you referred to a filing number that you

13 had when you were the Chief of Cabinet. Would this filing number be

14 common -- be unique to the Cabinet of Rasim Delic, General Rasim Delic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And can you look at the signature on the document? Does

17 the signature resemble General Delic's signature?

18 A. It does, but --

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Softic.

20 Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness just

22 responded, so I have no reason, but actually the question is strange.

23 "Does it remind you of," or, "Does it resemble." I mean, that's a strange

24 choice of words.

25 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I can rephrase the question.

Page 1816

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: But provided the strange words are objectionable.

2 Now, they may be strange, but are they objectionable? Are you objecting,

3 Madam Vidovic? And if you are, what is the basis for your objection?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I do object, Your Honour. They

5 could ask if it is or is not the signature in question, but they should

6 not put the question in terms of, "Does it resemble the signature or not?"

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: But what is objectionable about saying "does it

8 resemble"? I agree it's a very strange way of asking questions, but I

9 don't see the objectionability of the question.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will clarify this in

11 the cross-examination with the witness. I withdraw my objection.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

13 You may proceed.

14 MR. MENON: I'll rephrase the question.

15 Q. The signature that appears on the document, is that General

16 Delic's signature, Mr. Softic, based upon your experience as his Chief of

17 Cabinet?

18 A. The signature is a little bit strange, you know, I mean it's

19 strange, because it looks like it was signed in haste, like it was done in

20 haste, something like that.

21 Q. Thank you very much.

22 A. Whether it's --

23 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would ask that this document be

24 admitted into evidence.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

Page 1817

1 please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 271.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 MR. MENON: If the witness could be shown Exhibit P01461.

5 Q. Mr. Softic, can you for, the purpose of the record, could you just

6 indicate what this document concerns?

7 A. It concerns the document of the 3rd Corps, and it was forwarded to

8 the Armed Forces Supreme Command Staff of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

9 and it has to do with the establishment of a detachment by certain

10 citizens. This is a proposal, rather. The Commander of the 3rd Corps

11 proposes the establishment of some unit consisting of foreign citizens.

12 That is the core of this document.

13 Q. And who is the intended recipient of this document?

14 A. The Staff of the Armed Forces Supreme Command of the Army of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 Q. And I'd like to draw your attention to a handwritten comment at

17 the top of the document. It's in the middle at the top.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you indicate what that says?

20 A. This comment is addressed to the Organisation and Mobilisation

21 Administration by General Delic.

22 Q. And --

23 A. And it says, further on, I agree --

24 Q. And how do you know that this comment was made by General Delic?

25 A. I think this is his handwriting.

Page 1818

1 Q. And I'd like to direct your attention to another comment,

2 actually, and it's -- on the B/C/S version, it appears to be a "K," a

3 dash, and then "DANT." Can you indicate what the significance of that

4 comment might be, and it's also at the top of the document.

5 A. I don't know what you mean. I don't know what you mean.

6 Q. There's a -- at the top of the document, there's an indication of

7 a date, a time, and then next to that there's a handwritten comment.

8 A. Yes. This is an original file, if that's what you're asking me

9 about, and over here it says "Commander," "Commander" is what it says up

10 here: "Commander --," original file, the source file, and document

11 received by whoever it was received by through the Communication Centre,

12 and up there it says "Commander."

13 Q. What's the significance of the reference to the Commander?

14 A. This document is addressed to the Staff of the Supreme Command,

15 that is to say, that the Supreme Command Staff would have to receive this

16 document, which is to say not the Commander directly. But since it says

17 "Commander" up here, well, I don't know how come. Somebody at the

18 Communications Centre wrote this, "Commander," "Komandant." Now did

19 this -- did the Commander get this directly through me or in some other

20 way, I cannot recall, but it was supposed to go to the Staff of the

21 Supreme Command, which is to say that the Chief of Staff of the Supreme

22 Command was supposed to be made aware of this document and then it was

23 supposed to be forwarded to the Commander.

24 Q. And when you refer to the Commander, again just for the purpose of

25 clarification, who are you referring to?

Page 1819

1 A. General Delic.

2 Q. And you recognise General Delic's handwriting on this document.

3 What would General Delic have done with this document after receiving it?

4 A. Well, this is one example. You see that he sent it to the

5 Administration for Organisation and Mobilisation. He agrees with this

6 document, with this proposal, and this Administration for Organisation and

7 Mobilisation Affairs is duty-bound to further elaborate on the content of

8 this document and to send it to him for his signature.

9 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would ask that this document be

10 admitted into evidence.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

12 please be given an exhibit number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 272.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 MR. MENON: I would ask that the witness be shown Exhibit P01466.

16 Q. Mr. Softic, for the sake of the record, could you indicate what

17 the subject of this document is?

18 A. This document is actually an order that has to do with the

19 establishment of the El Mujahed Detachment in the 3rd Corps. It was sent

20 to the Command of the 3rd Corps.

21 Q. And for the sake of the record, could you indicate what the date

22 of this document is?

23 A. The 13th of August, 1993.

24 Q. And who would be responsible for preparing this document for

25 General Delic's signature?

Page 1820

1 A. The Chief of Administration for Mobilisation and Organisation.

2 Q. And how would this document have reached General Delic from the

3 Chief of Mobilisation?

4 A. It should have reached me in the Cabinet. Then I would briefly

5 take a look and see what this was all about. I'd have to see what it was

6 all about, and then after that I would give it to General Delic for his

7 signature. That was the customary way of dealing with it. Perhaps other

8 ways were used as well. Perhaps the Chief of the Administration could

9 come directly and bring the document for signing in order to give some

10 additional explanations. That is possible. There were such cases.

11 Q. And the document is addressed to the 3rd Corps Command. How would

12 this document have reached the 3rd Corps Command after General Delic

13 signed it?

14 A. I assume that this document came through the Communications

15 Centre.

16 MR. MENON: Thank you very much, Mr. Softic.

17 Your Honour, I would ask that this document be admitted into

18 evidence.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

20 please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 273.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I take note of the time. This would be a

24 convenient point for me to --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You still have about three or four minutes.

Page 1821

1 MR. MENON: Okay. I will go to the next document, in that case.

2 Q. Mr. Softic, could you -- excuse me. If the witness could be shown

3 Exhibit P01576. And I've just been informed by my colleague that this

4 exhibit has actually been -- this particular exhibit has been tendered

5 into evidence and its number is 176. I will still be soliciting this

6 witness's comments on the document.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.

8 MR. MENON:

9 Q. Mr. Softic, do you recognise this document?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And why do you recognise it?

12 A. I recognise it by the heading, because it says "Cabinet of the

13 Commander," and I realise that I created it because it has my initials at

14 the bottom, "SM."

15 Q. And in preparing this document, what sources did you consult?

16 A. It must have been another document which I cannot see here, on the

17 basis of which I created the content of this document. That was what

18 guided me in creating this document.

19 Q. And what other document are you referring to?

20 A. I say here "The President of the Presidency of the Republic of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, received a letter from special

22 rapporteur for the former Yugoslavia, Mr. Tadeusz Mazowietcki --"

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down, Mr. Softic, please. The interpreter

24 must catch up with you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll repeat it.

Page 1822

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no, carry on.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably a document existed on the

3 basis of which I created this document, and I see that from the very

4 beginning of this document of mine where it says: "The President of the

5 Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic,

6 received a letter from Mr. Tadeusz Mazowietcki, special rapporteur for the

7 former Yugoslavia, containing claims about an alleged massacre of 25

8 Bosnian Croats (civilians) in the village of Maline on the 8th of July,

9 1993."

10 So I'm not going to read any further. I had this document. On

11 the basis of that document I created this document, probably at General

12 Delic's orders, asking the Command of the 3rd Corps, because this happened

13 in the area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps, asking them to provide a

14 more exhaustive report on this.

15 Q. And just for the purpose of clarification, when you say "I had

16 this document," can you indicate the author of the document to which

17 you're referring? And let me clarify further. You had indicated, "I had

18 this document. On the basis of that document, I created this document."

19 If you could just clarify what document you're referring to that you used

20 to create the document that's in front of you, and just indicate the

21 author of the document that you consulted.

22 A. Well, this is a document that was sent from the President of the

23 Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 Q. Who was the author of that document?

25 A. I don't know. I can't remember. If you don't show me that

Page 1823

1 document, I cannot -- I cannot say. But I see that I was referring to

2 that document when I was creating this document, that document that

3 probably came from the President of the Presidency of the Republic of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

5 Q. And after drafting this particular document, what did you do with

6 it?

7 A. General Delic probably ordered me to draft this document. I did

8 draft this document, this document, yes, and I gave it to him to sign. The

9 document was signed, and after that I see that the Communications Centre

10 received it and sent it. That can be seen in the left-hand corner at the

11 bottom.

12 Q. And did General Delic give you any instructions when you drafted

13 this document?

14 A. Well, he must have, but I cannot remember. But I think that the

15 basis for this was that, well, he certainly instructed me to do that,

16 ordered me to do that.

17 Q. And if I could just draw your attention to the upper left-hand

18 side of the document, there's a strictly confidential number. Can you

19 read out that number?

20 A. "Strictly Confidential number 1/297-433."

21 Q. The "1/297," does that number have any significance to you?

22 A. When I look at it now, and I see it's the Cabinet, and I see that

23 it's a document that came from the Cabinet of the Commander, this was the

24 number of the Cabinet -- of the Commander, the number of the protocol, the

25 number of that particular file. That was the basic reference number, and

Page 1824

1 I think that this number, "433," was the number of the document under

2 which this particular document was registered.

3 Q. And I asked you this in relation to another document that I showed

4 you this morning, but the number "1297", would that have been specific to

5 the Cabinet of Rasim Delic or unique to the Cabinet?

6 A. I don't know what -- could you -- could you please show it to me

7 again? I cannot recall the number that you showed me. I think it was the

8 same one, but in order for me to be able to confirm this, you will have to

9 show me the document again, the one that you're talking about right now.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Menon, would it perhaps be better to do that

11 after the break?

12 MR. MENON: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We'll take the break and come back at

14 quarter to 11.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Menon. I think you've got about 35

18 minutes to go.

19 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Softic, when we had left off, I was asking you a question

21 about the strictly confidential number which appears on the upper

22 left-hand side of this document. I'm going to, for the purpose of

23 clarification, I'm just going to ask you this question again.

24 If you could direct your attention to the digits "1/297", what was

25 the purpose of that number on this document?

Page 1825

1 A. That is the reference number of the document.

2 Q. The number --

3 A. The basic number of the document, that is, of the Cabinet of the

4 Commander. I don't know whether this number pertains specifically to the

5 Cabinet of the Commander because -- I assume it did, because it says;

6 "Cabinet of the Commander," which means that "1/297" was the number of the

7 file of the Cabinet of the Commander.

8 MR. MENON: I would ask that this document be tendered into

9 evidence, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is this not the document that you said is already

11 Exhibit 176?

12 MR. MENON: Oh, I'm sorry. I apologise for that.

13 Could I have a minute to consult with my case manager on the next

14 document?

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may do so.

16 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MR. MENON: And before I show the witness the next document that

19 I'd like to have him authenticate, I'd just like to go back to a document

20 I showed him earlier today, and it's been admitted into evidence as

21 Exhibit number 271. If that could be shown to the witness again.

22 Q. Mr. Softic, could you -- and I'm going to refer you to the digits

23 that are next to the reference "Conf number," there's a set of four digits

24 that goes "1/297". Can you indicate what the significance of those

25 numbers may have been based upon the other documents that you've seen?

Page 1826

1 A. This number, "1/297," is identical. It is the same number that I

2 saw on the document previously shown, that is to say, that this number

3 belonged to the Cabinet of the Commander.

4 MR. MENON: Thank you very much.

5 I would ask that the witness be shown Exhibit 231.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Before we find that next document, Counsel, apart

7 from asserting that the archive number, 1/297, shows that it belongs to

8 the Cabinet of the Commander, I'd like to ask the witness if he recalls

9 what was in that case file number 297. In particular, would this number

10 refer to correspondence relating to the Mujahedin Detachment?

11 MR. MENON:

12 Q. Mr. Softic, you've heard the Judge's question, have you not? Do

13 you understand the Judge's question?

14 A. Yes, I understood the question.

15 Q. Can you answer it?

16 A. This number probably did not include the entire correspondence

17 related to the Mujahedin; that is to say that, in this number one could

18 find only that correspondence related to the Mujahedin that had come to

19 the Cabinet of the Commander and to which the Commander replied, that is

20 to say, only the correspondence that reached the Cabinet of the Commander.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Mr. Softic, did the number 297 have a

22 name? I suppose it refers to a case file. Did that file have a name?

23 What was the heading of the case file numbered 1/297, if you recall?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was not a case

25 file. This file consisted of documents that left the Cabinet of the

Page 1827

1 Commander, and those documents that were addressed to the Commander and

2 that had come to the Cabinet of the Commander and that he was able to

3 identify, those were the documents contained in that file; that is to say,

4 outgoing documents and incoming documents signed by the -- incoming mail

5 addressed to the Cabinet of the Commander and outgoing mail signed by the

6 Commander.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. I'm asking you these questions because

8 apparently the Prosecution has put some weight to it, and I want to

9 understand the reason why. So let me ask you just one more question.

10 Building up an archive is a very complicated issue, is a very

11 difficult thing to do, and the number 1/297 dash something else, was that

12 part of a number that was designed by you to serve as the archive for the

13 Commander or was it a number that belonged to an archive system that had

14 been created for all parts of the ABiH?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was not an

16 invented number. I, as Chief of Cabinet, received this number, so this

17 number had been recorded, and I used this as a number that had been

18 received. I don't know how it was that these numbers were assigned, but I

19 was told specifically about this one, 1/297, that this is the number of

20 the Cabinet of the Commander for one period. These numbers would change.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Softic. I assume that the

22 Prosecution will provide some more clarity about the significance of the

23 reference numbers here. Thank you.

24 MR. MENON:

25 Q. Mr. Softic, the number 54, can you explain what the -- actually,

Page 1828

1 if we could go back to the exhibit that we were discussing. That would be

2 Exhibit 272. Excuse me, 271, it's 271. And I just want to direct you to

3 the digits that we were discussing. After the "1/297," there's a digit --

4 there's the number "54." Can you explain what the significance of that

5 number would be?

6 A. As far as I can remember, 1/297 is the basic reference number, the

7 reference number, whereas 54 pertains specifically to this document. This

8 document is numbered 54, and that is how this particular document was

9 filed in my file, registered in my file.

10 MR. MENON: Thank you very much.

11 If the witness now could be --

12 A. That is what it should mean.

13 MR. MENON: If the witness could now be shown Exhibit 231.

14 Q. Mr. Softic, if you could look at this document.

15 A. Could you please enlarge this a bit?

16 Q. Have you had a chance to familiarise yourself with this document,

17 Mr. Softic?

18 A. Certainly, because this had come to the Cabinet of the Commander.

19 MR. MENON: I would just ask that the witness now be shown Exhibit

20 178.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Menon, this is exhibit what?

22 MR. MENON: 178, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're done with 231?

24 MR. MENON: Yes, yes. I just wanted the witness to see it and to

25 familiarise himself with it.

Page 1829

1 Q. Mr. Softic, if you could look at this document and familiarise

2 yourself with it. Do you recognise it?

3 A. Can you please scroll it down a bit? I can't see the whole

4 document in the Bosnian version. I need to see the end of the document. I

5 would like to see the initials of the person who drafted this document.

6 Can you show that to me, please?

7 Q. And for the record, that would be at the bottom of the document.

8 A. Yes, now I can see it, and this document was drafted by me,

9 probably following an order from General Delic.

10 Q. And what does this document concern?

11 A. Can I have the document back, please, again? This -- the contents

12 of this document refers to -- it's a response to Mr. Mazowiecki's request

13 relating to the conduct of certain foreign -- or rather his request --

14 Mr. Mazowiecki's request, and that's the response to his request. I think

15 I've seen this document before, and I believe that this was given to the

16 foreign ministry in order to provide a response to Mr. Mazowiecki in

17 response to his request for clarification of the situation.

18 Q. And you indicated that you were responsible for drafting the

19 document. How would you have gone about drafting this document?

20 A. I must have written this document, and I've seen the document that

21 you showed me earlier, received from the 3rd Corps Command. We wrote to

22 the 3rd Corps Command on the order of General Delic, asking them to give

23 us precise information about what had happened on the ground. Once I

24 received a report from the 3rd Corps, on the basis of that report, I

25 drafted this report and sent it to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in

Page 1830

1 order to convey this to Mr. Mazowiecki.

2 Q. After drafting the document, what did you do with this document?

3 A. I followed the standard procedure. It was signed and then it was

4 submitted. Whether it was sent by courier or through the Communications

5 Centre, I couldn't tell. Either by a courier or through the

6 Communications Centre, I can't see.

7 Q. Did General Delic give you any instructions when drafting this

8 document?

9 A. I think that the focus was the source from the 3rd Corps, probably

10 had General Delic had some objections, he would have made them to me,

11 because without his signature, this document could not leave the office.

12 He probably ordered me to draft this letter.

13 MR. MENON: I'm done with this document, Your Honour. Thank you.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

15 MR. MENON: If the witness could now be shown Exhibit P01661.

16 Q. Mr. Softic, what kind of document is this?

17 A. This is a regular combat report.

18 Q. And would you, in your capacity as General Delic's Chief of

19 Cabinet, would you receive such documents?

20 A. I would receive them from the Operations Centre, not directly from

21 the 3rd Corps.

22 Q. Okay. And for the sake of the record, I'd like to direct your

23 attention, and this is -- and I'd like to refer to page 1 of the B/C/S

24 copy of this document and page 2 of the English version of this document,

25 and it's to the second paragraph under the heading 2.2 "Our Forces." If

Page 1831

1 you could just read that paragraph out to us, the second paragraph.

2 A. "In the zone of responsibility of the 325th" --

3 Q. It's the second paragraph that I'm interested in, the second

4 paragraph under the heading 2.2.

5 A. "314th Brigade and the Technical Group" --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, we cannot locate this

7 paragraph.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Neither can the Bench.

9 MR. MENON: It's the second paragraph under --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, the second paragraph under heading 2.2 starts

11 with the words: "In the general, tt-511 area" --

12 MR. MENON: Okay. Then I'm mistaken. I'm referring to the

13 paragraph where there was a separation between the text under --

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The 3rd and 4th Battalion?

15 MR. MENON: Exactly. That's the one. I took that to be the second

16 paragraph because of the separation.

17 Q. Mr. Softic, if you could read the section that you just read out

18 to me again.

19 A. Only now I can see:

20 "The 3rd and the 4th Battalions of the 17th SKbbr and the South

21 Tactical Group, the 1st Battalion of the 7th Motorised Brigade, and the

22 El Mujahedin Detachment, put off the continuation of combat operations

23 until tomorrow due to continuing reconnaissance activity."

24 And it goes on to list the casualties sustained so far.

25 Q. And if I could refer you to the top of this document on the first

Page 1832

1 page, can you note the date of the document for the record?

2 A. I cannot see clearly. There are some numbers over it. I cannot

3 see the date. Can you stop for a second? It's the 24th of October or

4 December, I don't know, 1993.

5 Q. And if we could go to the last page of the document -- or the

6 second-to-last page of the document in the B/C/S and the last page of the

7 document in the English version. If you could just note for the record,

8 who signed this document?

9 A. I cannot recognise this signature, but it says here

10 "Commander Alagic." I'm not familiar with this signature.

11 Q. But do you know what position General or Commander Alagic, as it

12 states in the document, had in the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

13 A. He was a corps commander.

14 MR. MENON: Thank you very much.

15 Your Honour, I would ask that this document be admitted into

16 evidence.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

18 please be given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 274.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 MR. MENON:

22 Q. Mr. Softic, you indicated that you left the office of General

23 Delic's Cabinet, and I believe if memory serves me correct, that it was at

24 the end of 1993 or the beginning of 1994. Who succeeded you in that

25 position?

Page 1833

1 A. His first name was Ferid, but I can't remember his last name. He

2 was the person who replaced me.

3 Q. And who replaced the gentleman that you just referred to?

4 A. Ferid Buljubasic.

5 Q. And where did you go after you left the Cabinet of General Rasim

6 Delic?

7 A. I went to the Intelligence Administration.

8 MR. MENON: No further questions, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 Any cross-examination, Madam Vidovic?

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honours.

12 Your Honours, I would like to emphasise that this witness has

13 knowledge which is of importance for the Defence case of General Delic,

14 and we are also going to ask certain questions with respect to that.

15 Cross-examination by Madam Vidovic:

16 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Softic.

17 A. Good afternoon.

18 Q. My name is Vasvija Vidovic, and I'm going to examine you on behalf

19 of the Defence team for General Delic.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the Prosecution please switch off the

21 microphone.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You told us that you were appointed Chief of Cabinet of the

24 Supreme Command immediately upon the arrival of General Delic. This duty

25 of Mr. Delic's Chief of Cabinet during 1993 was not discharged by

Page 1834

1 Sakib Mahmuljin?

2 A. No.

3 Q. In early 1993, he was actually in the Cabinet of Sefer Halilovic?

4 A. Yes, as far as I know.

5 Q. In the spring of 1993, he went to Zenica; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, as far as I know.

7 Q. During your work in the Cabinet, you told us that the Cabinet was

8 made up of only three persons; yourself, Mr. Zeljko Grubesic, and a

9 typist?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Therefore, Mr. Grubesic was one of the first associates of

12 General Delic; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. He worked in his Cabinet throughout the whole war; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes, as far as I know.

17 Q. I apologise. Since we speak the same language, we need to pause

18 between questions and answers.

19 Now, I will go back to Mr. Grubesic. Zeljko Grubesic was a

20 Bosnian Croat; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The Commander of the Supreme Command Staff was a newly-established

23 post; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Before that, there was no such post in the establishment of the

Page 1835

1 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

2 A. I believe so.

3 Q. Sefer Halilovic was the Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command

4 rather than a commander; am I right?

5 A. Yes, you are.

6 Q. In that sense, I thought that there was no Commander of the Staff

7 of the Supreme Command but rather a Chief of the Staff of the Supreme

8 Command. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, you are right.

10 Q. Therefore, the function of the Commander of the Supreme Command

11 was only introduced on the 8th of June, 1993; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When you came to work in the Cabinet, there were no set of rules

14 governing the operation of the Cabinet; is that correct?

15 A. I didn't find any such set of rules.

16 Q. You wanted to write these rules, but due to the work-load, you

17 never found time to do that?

18 A. Primarily because of the work-load and also I couldn't receive

19 proper instructions, but first of all due to an enormous workload.

20 Q. Throughout the whole period that you worked as a chief of cabinet

21 of Mr. Delic, that is to say, the latter half of 1993 and first month of

22 1994, when you left it, Mr. Delic's Cabinet was practically in the process

23 of being established; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, one may say so.

25 Q. You do remember that you made a statement to the Prosecution in

Page 1836

1 this case?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. I refer now to paragraph 54 of this statement, in which you said

4 everything during that time was subject to changes. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. For that reason and due to these changes and the lack of

7 organisation of the Cabinet, would you agree with me that you were working

8 under difficult conditions?

9 A. Yes, under very difficult conditions.

10 Q. The work-load was enormous, and there were only three of you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You personally had a whole range of duties?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You set up meetings for General Delic when he was in Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You prepared these meetings?

17 A. Most of the time, yes.

18 Q. You mediated between the administrations and General Delic?

19 A. Yes, in most cases.

20 Q. You did not attend the meetings between General Delic and the

21 Chiefs of Administration?

22 A. For the most part, no, because there was a lot of pressure on the

23 Cabinet, and we had other duties to perform.

24 Q. In your testimony today, in response to the Prosecutor's questions

25 regarding the administrations, you said, if I understood you correctly,

Page 1837

1 that the administrations were directly linked to the Commander of the

2 Staff of the Supreme Command.

3 A. Yes, that is what I said.

4 Q. Would you agree with me that the Operations Centre, the

5 Intelligence Administration, the Administration for Organisation and

6 Mobilisation, the Administration of Branches, and the PV and RM

7 Administration - I don't know what it stands exactly for - were directly

8 linked to the Chief of the Supreme Command Staff; are you aware of that?

9 A. Yes, the Operations Centre was directly linked. Which other did

10 you mention?

11 Q. Intelligence Administration, the Administration for Organisation

12 and Mobilisation.

13 A. The Organisation and Mobilisation Administration --

14 Q. If you can remember, fine. If you cannot --

15 A. No, I cannot remember.

16 Q. Thank you. The Chiefs of Administrations had their subordinates?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Their subordinates briefed them about the problems and the

19 developments?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. There was a hierarchy between administrations of the Supreme

22 Command and appropriate departments of these administrations in

23 lower-ranking units?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. For example, the Chief of the Administration for Moral Guidance of

Page 1838

1 the Supreme Command received reports from the corps organs for moral

2 guidance?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Such subordination existed in the Military Service as well?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. These administrations of the Supreme Command Staff had their own

7 protocols or registers where the documents were entered that were received

8 or dispatched from those administrations?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Documents that were received by the administrations from the field

11 did not have to be seen at the Cabinet of General Delic; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. Also, documents that were sent by certain Supreme Command Staff

14 administrations into the field were not something that the Cabinet of

15 General Delic had to see; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. They didn't even have to hear about them?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. The chief of the relevant administration of the Supreme Command

20 Staff, when he received information from their subordinates from the

21 field, would decide about the importance or the significance of the

22 problem?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. He would decide whether or not that is something that they would

25 inform the Supreme Command Staff Commander or not?

Page 1839

1 A. Yes, depending on the content of the document, he would decide

2 whether he would inform the Commander or not; specifically, General Delic.

3 Q. Only if he felt, and I'm thinking of the administration chief,

4 that it was an important piece of information, it would reach the Supreme

5 Command Staff Commander; am I correct?

6 A. Yes, you are. If the administration chief felt that the

7 information was important at that level of command, that the Commander

8 needed to know about it, then it would be passed on to the Commander. In

9 other words, if he made a different assessment, it would not reach the

10 Commander?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. It all depended on his estimate; is that right?

13 A. Yes, it all depended on his assessment of the content of a

14 specific piece of information.

15 Q. Thank you very much. You would agree that the situation in Bosnia

16 and Herzegovina was difficult; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It was difficult to members of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Army?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The forces of the BiH Army practically controlled five separate

21 enclaves where the population that was loyal to the Republic of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina was herded and parts of Central Bosnia; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. The communication was very difficult, wasn't it?

Page 1840

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The Command in Sarajevo was isolated to a large degree; isn't that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Its information about events and the situation depended on the

6 information that was arriving from the field; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Information did not always reflect the actual situation in the

9 field; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, you could say that.

11 Q. And that is why General Delic, whenever he could, toured the

12 units; am I correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And he did this whenever the combat situation allowed, which was

15 actually pretty intense, so depending on the combat actions, which were

16 very intense around Sarajevo throughout the war, he did it when this was

17 possible?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In the second half of 1993, there were internal settling -- there

20 was internal settling of accounts within the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

21 with units of the 1st Corps that had gone out of control of Sarajevo; is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You will agree that this made the situation and the conditions of

25 the work of the Command more difficult?

Page 1841

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. You testified about the mail and the documents that arrived at the

3 Cabinet and were dispatched from the Cabinet. The mail that came to the

4 Cabinet was addressed to the Cabinet or, rather, to the Commander

5 personally; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Commander Delic faced a large number of problems because of the

8 difficult combat situation for the armija in Sarajevo and outside; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Because of the large number of problems, the Cabinet was

12 absolutely overwhelmed by mail; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When you testified or when you gave your statement to the

15 Prosecutor before this trial, and we're talking about paragraph 41, you

16 said:

17 "I was the one who filtered or channeled the mail."

18 Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The contents and the importance of the situation was something

21 that you were guided by in terms of which information you would pass on to

22 the Commander or not; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The importance of a document, in your assessment, would then set

25 the priorities as far as the documents that the Commander would see were

Page 1842

1 concerned; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You couldn't show all the documents to the Commander; is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes, that's right, I couldn't.

6 Q. You passed the documents directly on to the administrations if you

7 felt that the administrations could resolve the problem without the

8 involvement of the Commander; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Because they had their Chiefs?

11 A. So even though the document would come to the Cabinet of the

12 Commander, if I saw that the chief of the relevant administration could

13 resolve the problem, then I would forward it to the particular

14 administration chief.

15 Q. Thank you for that clarification. In the absence of the

16 Commander, you would resolve the problems with his deputies; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. These were Generals Stjepan Siber and General Jovan Divjak; is

20 that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. General Delic trusted his deputies, did he not?

23 A. I think that he did.

24 Q. And then you would turn to them in his absence?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1843

1 Q. In providing your statement to the Prosecutor, in paragraph 47 of

2 the statement you said:

3 "He told me," meaning General Delic, "you have Siber and Divjak

4 here and you could resolve things in my an absence"?

5 A. Yes, that is true.

6 Q. So there was a protocol on who would stand in for him?

7 A. I don't recall exactly, but I think that there must have been a

8 decision on who would stand in for him.

9 Q. All right. But most frequently General Siber would stand in for

10 him; am I correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You worked with General Delic from the time you were appointed

13 until sometime, as you said, in early 1994. During this period, did he

14 ever tell you that you could not discuss any information or any particular

15 problem with his deputy?

16 A. No, he never told me anything like that.

17 Q. He didn't tell you that you could not resolve any particular

18 question with his deputy?

19 A. No, he never said that.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness

21 please look at document D238. For the transcript, this is a Supreme

22 Command Staff document, implementation of an order of the 19th of

23 September, 1993.

24 Q. Witness, please, can you look at this document? You can see the

25 date. It's the 19th of September, 1993. And then I think that your

Page 1844

1 initials are here, "SM/AM." Do you recognise this?

2 A. Yes, I do. It's my document, it's a document from the Cabinet of

3 the Commander.

4 Q. Can you please look where it says "for the Commander, Mr. Stjepan

5 Siber." Do you recognise his signature?

6 A. Yes, yes, I think that is Siber's signature.

7 Q. All right, thank you. Now I'm going to quote the middle part of

8 the document.

9 Your Honours, it's paragraph 2 of the document, which states --

10 Siber is asking for the order to be implemented and states:

11 "One such vehicle was taken on the 15th of August, 1993, as the

12 UNPROFOR document states, by the Mujahedin near Celebici, 2-3 kilometres

13 from Celebici. Detailed information regarding this case is provided in

14 the above-mentioned order."

15 Now, in relation to this document, I would like to ask you: This

16 document shows, does it not, that General Siber resolved certain problems

17 in relation to the Mujahedin; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that's his signature. I think it's his signature.

19 Q. These problems were not concealed from him, were they?

20 A. I didn't conceal anything when I would come up against a problem

21 and I had to resolve it. I didn't have anyone else to go to, and it was

22 my duty to go to the Deputy Commander and, in that way, resolve my own

23 problem and the problem that was imposed on me.

24 Q. You didn't have any instructions to put anything to the side as

25 far as the Mujahedin were concerned?

Page 1845

1 A. No, never. There was nothing like that.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be

3 given an exhibit number, please.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 275.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. I would like to ask you the following: It's correct, isn't it,

10 that Supreme Command Staff documents were archived, were they not?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The archives were equally accessible to the Deputy Commanders and

13 to the Commander; is that right?

14 A. Yes. I think that deputies did have access to the archives.

15 Q. And to look at whatever document they wanted to?

16 A. Yes. What I meant when I said that was that they could go to the

17 archive, and they could ask for whatever they wanted in the archive.

18 Q. The Main Staff did not have any secret archives, did it?

19 A. As far as I know, no.

20 Q. You never archived a document in a separate archive or safe, and

21 that this was not part of the normal Supreme Command Staff archive?

22 A. No, absolutely not.

23 Q. Would you agree that members of the Army of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina, during 1993, knew little about what an important

25 security-related piece of information was?

Page 1846

1 A. Yes, that is correct. If I were to talk about that, it would take

2 up a lot of time.

3 Q. Many documents were classified as confidential or strictly

4 confidential, when this was actually not the case?

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. You showed the Commander these documents if they really contained

7 important and significant information; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. This also applied to the bulletin and special information or

10 reports; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You showed the Commander these documents if they really contained

13 what they believed to be strategically-important information that the

14 Commander had to know?

15 A. Yes, precisely.

16 Q. I'm going to ask you something about processing the documents that

17 were received or sent out by the Supreme Command Staff Commander or his

18 Cabinet, and this is something that you also were asked by the Prosecutor.

19 Would you agree that the Cabinet had a protocol where incoming and

20 outgoing mail was registered?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The incoming document would be given a protocol number; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes. I would like to clarify. May I?

25 A document that was received would be given a protocol number, but

Page 1847

1 a document that was received also had its own reference number and it

2 would state the person who had sent it, and it would have its own

3 reference number. I would register the contents of the documents in a

4 separate column. Then I would note where the document came from, summary

5 contents of the document, and also the date when it was received, and also

6 then I would give it a number under which I had entered it in my own

7 register.

8 Q. Thank you. I think you helped all of us with this exhaustive

9 information or explanation.

10 I would like to ask you the following: It was not possible for a

11 document to have a protocol number without being entered into the protocol

12 precisely under that number; do you understand me?

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. A document would have the number "1297/54," and if this number was

15 not found in the protocol it would just mean that the protocol -- the

16 document was not entered into the protocol?

17 A. That is something that should not have been allowed to happen.

18 Q. Thank you. I'm going to come back to these documents that the

19 Prosecutor showed you, and I will put some more questions about that to

20 you, but now I would like for us to look at another document, D247 --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, D246.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is a document of the Supreme

23 Command Staff of the 29th of June, 1993. Can we please scroll down the

24 document so we can see the signature, or, rather, can we look at page 2 of

25 the document.

Page 1848

1 Q. Do you agree that that is a document that was signed by General

2 Delic?

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the document be returned to

5 page 1, please.

6 Q. I kindly ask you to look at paragraph 1 first. It says:

7 "An Operations Centre is to be formed at the Supreme Command Staff

8 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina for constant monitoring and estimating

9 of the b/d/combat operations in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and so

10 on."

11 Could you please look at number 3 now:

12 "The Operations Centre of the SVK is directly subordinated to the

13 Chief of Staff of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina"?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that is the 29th of June, 1993. Do you agree that in actual

16 fact that is how things worked in practice as well?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The documents arrived in the Operations Centre, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The Operations Centre, as we can see, was subordinated to the

21 Chief of Staff, so information was submitted to the Chief of Staff then;

22 isn't that right?

23 A. All documents that arrived in the Operations Centre had to be

24 presented to the Chief of Staff.

25 Q. At this time, the 29th of June, 1993, you will agree it was

Page 1849

1 Sefer Halilovic; right?

2 A. I think so, yes.

3 Q. After that the Chief of Staff decided on how important the

4 document was and whether it was necessary to show it to the Commander of

5 the Main Staff; is that the way it was?

6 A. That is certainly the way it was.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Your Honours, could this document please be assigned a number.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 Before we do that, just reading that paragraph three:

11 "The Operations Centre of the SVK is subordinated directly to the

12 Army of RBiH Chief of Staff," and your reading the B/C/S version of it,

13 doesn't have -- that word, "potcinjen," doesn't seem to have the "pret"

14 that we had earlier referred to "re-subordination." So it does look like

15 there is a distinction between subordination and re-subordination. Can we

16 agree with that?

17 In an earlier document, where the word in English was

18 "re-subordination," that "potcinjen" had a prefix before it. So it is not

19 correct to say that in the B/C/S "subordination" and "re-subordination"

20 have one word.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, but when someone

22 comes -- well, I don't know whether the witness can help us with this, but

23 there will be witnesses who will know exactly what "re-subordination"

24 means in our language, "pret potcinjen." In our language it comes from

25 the word "pret potjcinjen," which is "re-subordinated."

Page 1850

1 So it's "re-subordination" and "re-subordinated." We have the

2 next witnesses that will be coming in and --

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't think we need a witness to explain this to

4 us. The documents speak for themselves. We have here the word

5 "subordinate" and we have this word here which doesn't "pret," and earlier

6 when we had "re-subordinate," this word was prefixed by "pret." That's all

7 I'm saying. And I don't think we need any witness to explain this because

8 the document, I think, speak for themselves. I just wanted to make that

9 note.

10 Having made that note, the document is admitted into evidence. May

11 it please be given an exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Exhibit number 276.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 You may proceed, Madam.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Certainly, we are going to deal with this question that you drew

17 our attention to.

18 Q. Now, Witness, please, D244 is the document that I would like to

19 have shown to the witness.

20 Witness, this is a document of the 3rd Corps dated the 9th of

21 August, 1993, and you see that it is called a combat report?

22 A. A regular combat report.

23 Q. A regular combat report addressed to the SVK. Now, please, see

24 this part here: "Mujahedin or Muslim forces that were brought from

25 Travnik, as well as part of the Muslim forces from Zavidovici ..."

Page 1851

1 It's around the middle of the document in the English language,

2 Your Honours. "Part of the Muslim forces from Zavidovici not want to carry

3 out an order."

4 Please, do you agree that this is a report that arrived from the

5 field to the Staff of the Supreme Command?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Your Honours, could this document please be assigned a number.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

10 please be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 277.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now see D235.

14 Q. Witness, do you see that this is a document that is a report

15 addressed to the President of the Presidency of the Republic of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Could you just scroll down so that we see the

17 signature? And in relation to this, I ask you to look at paragraphs 6 and

18 7 of this document.

19 A. You mean the last one and the one-but-last one?

20 Q. Not quite.

21 A. It's all right.

22 Q. You see where Muslim forces are referred to? Could the English

23 text please be scrolled down so that the Trial Chamber can see? And then

24 it continues on the other page in English.

25 Witness, do you see that this document bears the initials "HP/MP"?

Page 1852

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you agree -- or, rather, who is "HP"; can you tell us, if you

3 know?

4 A. I cannot remember now.

5 Q. Is it possible there was someone who did --

6 A. This is a document of the Operations Centre. That can be seen

7 from the document itself.

8 Q. Do you know Mr. Husa Paravlic?

9 A. Yes, Husa Paravlic, yes.

10 Q. Do you agree that over here General Delic informs the President of

11 the Presidency that the Muslim forces brought from Travnik and from

12 Zavidovici refuse to carry out an order, and as a reason they mention that

13 they do not trust the army and that they fear treason?

14 A. Yes, that is what is stated here.

15 Q. Do you agree that here, for instance, the Operations Centre

16 estimated that this was an important security problem and informed Delic

17 about this?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then Delic informed the President of the Presidency?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Because this was an important security problem in the field, the

22 assessment was that the document should reach Delic, and then from Delic,

23 the President of the Presidency?

24 A. Yes, yes, this was indeed a problem that merited such a

25 development.

Page 1853

1 Q. Because what is pointed out is they do not trust the army, and

2 they fear treason, right?

3 A. Yes, yes, that is what was said, that they do not trust the army

4 and that they fear treason.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Your Honours, could this document please be assigned an exhibit

7 number.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 278.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before the break I

13 think that the witness can have a look at another document that will

14 require very little time, Exhibit number 225. Could that please be shown

15 to the witness. For the transcript this is a document of the Supreme

16 Command Staff of the 27th of July, 1993, and it is entitled "Warning."

17 Q. So witness, please, it doesn't seem to be right -- could you

18 please adjust the Bosnian version of the document a bit? Just look at the

19 last part of the document, where it says -- or rather the document refers

20 to the establishment of Muslim armed forces, units within them, and about

21 them becoming independent and so on, so just look at this document:

22 "Take all necessary measures to prevent these and other activities

23 in the breaking of that unity, and to bring armed formations under the

24 single system of command and control.

25 Please, do you agree that this document reflects the position of

Page 1854

1 General Delic vis a vis the Muslim armed forces? Quite simply, he ordered

2 a ban on the activity of the Muslim armed forces?

3 A. Yes. What is written here in this document reflects the position

4 of General Delic. That is true.

5 Q. He sent this document to all the corps of the Army of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. Yes. That can be seen in the heading on the right-hand side.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Your Honours, this exhibit has a number, so can it please be

10 removed now.

11 Your Honours, perhaps this would be a convenient moment for the

12 break, because as far as the next document is concerned, I will have more

13 questions. But if you wish ...

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then as you may, we'll take a break now and come

15 back at half past 12.00.

16 Court adjourned.

17 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Softic, the Prosecutor has shown you a document on the

22 3rd Corps relating to the formation of the El Mujahedin Detachment, dating

23 12th --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, please repeat the date of the document.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Counsel, you are requested to repeat the date of

Page 1855

1 the document.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. ... dated 12th of August, 1993, Exhibit 273. Witness, can you

4 please look at this document. Would you agree that under item 1, the

5 formation of the detachment, it reads:

6 "In the area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps, El Mujahedin

7 Detachment shall be formed according to the proposed establishment, which

8 you must submit to this Staff for approval."

9 Can you see this?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you agree that, in principle, the Administration for

12 Organisation and Mobilisation of the Staff of the Supreme Command should

13 give an establishment formation to the unit formed under the order of the

14 General Staff?

15 A. Yes, based on the proposal of this subordinate unit.

16 Q. Therefore, that would be a standard and normal procedure; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. This order for the formation says that the 3rd Corps will form

20 this detachment according to the proposed establishment which itself has

21 to submit to the Staff?

22 A. Yes, based on the proposal of the 3rd Corps in this particular

23 case.

24 Q. This means that the Supreme Command Staff was not aware of the

25 elements on the basis of which it could immediately order the formation of

Page 1856

1 the detachment; is that right?

2 A. Yes, it is. It was up to the 3rd Corps to provide elements on the

3 basis of which all this would be formulated.

4 Q. Very well. Therefore, it should contain the potential to form the

5 unit both in terms of men and materiel; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. While you were the Chief of Cabinet of General Delic, he did not

8 receive this proposal for this formation; am I right?

9 A. I don't remember receiving this proposal. I definitely don't

10 remember receiving it. I would have to see it to refresh my memory. I

11 don't remember receiving it.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Can the witness now be

13 shown the next page of this document. Would you please look at item 5 of

14 the document, which reads:

15 "Submit a written report on the implementation of this order to

16 this Staff no later than the 5th September 1993."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please, while you were working in the Cabinet of General Staff,

19 have you ever seen such a report?

20 A. I honestly cannot remember seeing it.

21 Q. Would that be something very special that would be remembered and

22 noticed by you?

23 A. I should have noticed such a thing, I should have done that,

24 because that would be an important matter.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 1857

1 Your Honours, can we just scroll down this document, or, rather,

2 up? Yes, that would be it.

3 Very well. Your Honours, I think that this document can be

4 removed from the screens. I was trying to match the translation, but I

5 can do it some other time.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone, Madam Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.

9 Can the witness be shown Exhibit number 271, please. It's a

10 letter dated 23rd of July, 1993, and that's an authorisation.

11 Q. Witness, can you please look carefully once again at the substance

12 of this document. First of all, do you agree that it's dated the 23rd of

13 July, 1993?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And there are no initials of yours; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. I usually or normally put my initials on every document.

17 Q. Now, please look carefully at this document. It is true, isn't

18 it, that this document has no incoming or outcoming stamp on the face of

19 it?

20 A. I don't see that this document was sent out anywhere. If you can

21 scroll it up because normally the Communications Centre would mark it. But

22 I don't see any such mark here that I would normally see, which means that

23 this was not dispatched anywhere.

24 Q. Very well. You were well aware of the way and style of

25 General Delic's writing?

Page 1858

1 A. You can say that.

2 Q. Please, General Delic was an educated officer, he had completed

3 the Staff Command School; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Would he issue an order to a subordinate of his or would he draft

6 an authorisation?

7 A. Can you please repeat this or rephrase it more accurately?

8 Q. Please, General Delic, as a well-educated officer, would issue an

9 order to a subordinate of his?

10 A. Yes, he would.

11 Q. However, being an officer yourself, is there such a term as

12 "authorisation" in military terminology?

13 A. This is not how things should be done, how you would write to a

14 subordinate unit.

15 Q. Please, it also says here "authorising Mr. Sakib Mahmuljin, a

16 member of the 3rd Corps." Would you agree that a military order issued by

17 a trained officer, such as Delic, would be given to Sakib Mahmuljin and to

18 state his --

19 A. I don't know whether his post would be mentioned, but it shouldn't

20 [as interpreted] be mentioned; that is to say, the post of

21 Sakib Mahmuljin. That is correct, it should contain the post held by

22 Sakib Mahmuljin.

23 Q. Do you agree that this kind of letter, provided that it was

24 dispatched somewhere, must have been entered into the register book of the

25 office?

Page 1859

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And it would be given a number?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You can see here that the member of the 3rd Corps Command is given

5 an authorisation. You would agree with that. If this letter was sent to

6 the 3rd Corps, it must have been entered in the protocol of the 3rd Corps?

7 A. Yes, that would be the standard procedure.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, with respect to

9 this document, I would like the witness to look again at the MFI 270.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Before we do so, Counsel, you have suggested that

11 it would be unusual for General Delic to authorise the Chef de Cabinet of

12 the 3rd Corps to carry out, on behalf of a supreme authority, arrangements

13 relating to the Mujahedin. I understand your answer to the counsel's

14 question as saying that under normal circumstances General Delic would

15 have ordered not the Chef de Cabinet, but the Chief of the 3rd Corps

16 directly, to do these things.

17 So in the answer and questions that went on between you and

18 counsel, I got the impression that there is something strange about this

19 document. Why would General Delic authorise rather than ordering these

20 things to be done, and why would he address himself to the Chef de Cabinet

21 rather than to the Chief? Do we have any explanations as to why this was

22 done the way it was here?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I understood you

24 correctly, General Delic would never address the Cabinet of the 3rd Corps

25 Command. He did communicate with the Commander of the 3rd Corps, and I

Page 1860

1 think that this is how it was done, and the 3rd Corps Commander was

2 subordinated to General Delic. I cannot understand your objection and

3 your remark. I think that this line of communication was clear. However,

4 as far as this specific document is concerned, I can only say that I don't

5 see that this document was forwarded to any quarters, nor is this, as far

6 as I can judge, the style of writing of General Delic.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: And that is exactly what puzzles me.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me. And that is exactly why I am puzzled,

10 because -- and I'm not raising an objection, not at all. This is not my

11 function, but I'm merely putting a question. Because it seems to me that

12 it is strange that General Delic would authorise Mr. Mahmuljin, who I

13 understand was the Chef de Cabinet for General Hadzihasanovic. Why would

14 he authorise Mr. Mahmuljin to ensure this inclusion of the Mujahedin Unit

15 into the RBiH Army? That is clearly not something that would fall under

16 the authority of the Chef de Cabinet. That would fall under the authority

17 of the Commander of the 3rd Corps, General Hadzihasanovic.

18 So there's a bell that rings inside my head that this is strange

19 somehow, and I'm asking you if you can provide some explanation to it.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, Your Honour, I don't

21 know whether Sakib Mahmuljin was the Chief of Cabinet of the 3rd Corps

22 Commander. I'm not aware of that to begin with. Secondly, I know only

23 one thing. Technically speaking, if a commander addressed the 3rd Corps,

24 he would communicate with the 3rd Corps Commander. The Cabinet can only

25 act as a technical liaison between General Delic and the 3rd Corps

Page 1861

1 Commander and under no other circumstances can this be done otherwise. I

2 don't know what Sakib Mahmuljin was doing, whether he was the Chief of

3 Cabinet, what post he held. I truly don't know that.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: I apologise, Mr. Softic. I thought that this was

5 your own testimony from -- right from the beginning of your testimony

6 today. Exhibit 270, 270, I think authorised Mahmuljin as the Chef de

7 Cabinet, I think, or maybe I was wrong. If we can see Exhibit 270 again

8 or come back to it later.

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: I may be confused, Mr. Softic. I'm sorry. I

12 thought that Mahmuljin had been appointed the Chef de Cabinet, but I must

13 have been wrong. I realise that.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was precisely my

15 intention, for us to look at the MFI 270, and that was my plan.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have questions on this one before we remove this

18 one.

19 It was suggested to you, sir, that this document was not sent

20 anywhere, not dispatched anywhere. Amongst others, one of the reasons

21 given is that it does not have a number. Remember that?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this the previous document I have

23 in front of me a different document?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, this one, "Authorisation."

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Authorisation." No, you cannot say

Page 1862

1 that, Your Honour, on the basis of this number. It can be said, on the

2 basis of the fact that there is no stamp at the bottom or at the top of

3 the document, that the document was forwarded. This is a document that

4 should have been sent to the 3rd Corps. Such documents were dispatched

5 via the Operations Staff Communications Centre, and when they would

6 forward such a document, it would have to have proof on the document that

7 it actually was forwarded to the 3rd Corps. And this is why I said that

8 it probably was not forwarded.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm just trying to get an understanding.

10 At page 70, line 9, it was said to you:

11 "Do you agree that this kind of letter, provided that it was

12 dispatched somewhere, must have been entered into the register book of the

13 office?"

14 And you said: "Yes."

15 Now, how do we know now, by looking at this document, that it was

16 not entered into the register of the office?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This seems to be a document that was

18 registered, because at the top of the document we have the number

19 "1/297-54," which means that the document was entered on the 23rd of July,

20 1993.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's take it step by step. Don't go ahead of me.

22 I'm asking you the question. It was said to you: "Do you agree that this

23 kind of letter, provided that it was dispatched somewhere, must have been

24 entered into the register book of the office."

25 And you said: "Yes."

Page 1863

1 I'm asking you a very simple question. How do you determine, by

2 looking at this document, that it was not entered in the register?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the document was

4 entered into the protocol in File 1/297 under number 57.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: 57 or 54?

6 THE INTERPRETER: 54, interpreter's correction.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: But then -- but then the next question was: "And

8 it would be given a number," and you said: "Yes," the suggestion being

9 this one does not have a number. Now you're telling us that the number is

10 54?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the number.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: So when you said, "Yes," to the question, "And

13 you'd be given a number," were you not correct? I'm trying to understand

14 this discussion now, because I didn't understand how it was going.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that the

16 Defence counsel asked a general question, how this is done, what the

17 procedure is in processing documents. Had she asked me specifically about

18 this document, I would have given her an answer.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: These questions were put to you after this document

20 was put on the screen, and we are under the impression that we are talking

21 about this document. And this document has a number, but then it has been

22 suggested that it would have a number if it was dispatched somewhere, and

23 because the position is that it was not dispatched somewhere, therefore,

24 it doesn't have a number and it is not entered into the register.

25 And I'm asking you these two questions: How do we find out, by

Page 1864

1 looking at the document, that it was entered into the register, and does

2 it have a number? Now, you've answered that it does have a number. And

3 if I may ask you again something that you, yourself, have said. You said

4 it would have a stamp. What kind of stamp would be there to say that it

5 has been dispatched, because this one here does have a stamp over the

6 signature of the author. I don't know what the stamp means, but there is

7 some stamp there. What other stamp is it supposed to have to demonstrate

8 that it has been dispatched?

9 We can go to other documents. Let's see what other documents

10 have -- what stamp they have which this one doesn't have.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a stamp of the

12 Supreme Command Staff. Usually, what would happen is that the Commander,

13 when he signed a document, next to the signature, even in haste it would

14 be done on top of his signature, this stamp would be applied. That was

15 the usual manner, the usual procedure.

16 After the document was created, this would then constitute the

17 final step in sending a document off, the signature of General Delic and

18 the stamp of the Supreme Command Staff.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but am I right to say -- I don't want to

20 misinterpret you. Am I right to say that you did indicate earlier that

21 amongst other things to indicate that the document was dispatched, it's

22 got to have a stamp, a particular type of stamp?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. In order to send a

24 document, I didn't say that it had to have a stamp in order to dispatch a

25 document. I knew that the document was sent on the basis of --

Page 1865

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, finish off.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a major difference between

3 the stamp --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Let me read what was said at page 69,

5 starting at lines 7 to 10:

6 "I don't see that this document was sent out anywhere."

7 This is your answer:

8 "If you can scroll it up, because normally the Communications

9 Centre would mark it, but I don't see any mark here which I would normally

10 see, which means that this was not dispatched anywhere."

11 Now, you are talking specifically about this document. You are

12 telling us specifically that this document was not dispatched anywhere

13 because you don't see the mark. What kind of mark would have been on this

14 document to demonstrate that it was dispatched?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if -- when a document

16 reached the Communications Centre and when the document was dispatched,

17 the person who dispatched the particular document at the Communications

18 Centre, and the document would be dispatched via radio equipment, the

19 usual procedure was to make a brief note, a brief remark, that the

20 document was sent off, the time when it was sent off, and there would be

21 an initial next to it. That would be at the end of the document. And

22 this is why I asserted that the document was never dispatched anywhere.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Judge Lattanzi has a question, and after

24 that I would like us to be shown another document which has those marks

25 from the Communications Centre, a document that was dispatched.

Page 1866

1 Yes, Judge.

2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, is it possible that this

3 particular document does not bear the markings you're mentioning for the

4 simple reason that the Tribunal received this document directly from the

5 Supreme Command rather than from the Communications Centre?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document,

7 regardless of where it was taken from in its original version, must have

8 this note. Anywhere the document would be received at, it would have to

9 have that mark. It doesn't matter where the document was obtained from,

10 where the Court got the document from. The original of the document would

11 have such a mark. Even the photocopy, such as this one, would still have

12 to bear this particular mark.

13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam --

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, you have said you wanted to show the

17 witness the next document. We'll look at that document and look out for

18 the marks. Can you call the document you want to call.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 Your Honours, can we look at the document that we just looked at a

21 little bit earlier? This is Exhibit 273. This is a document signed by

22 General Delic on the formation of the El Mujahedin Detachment. We looked

23 at this earlier. It's also sent to the 3rd Corps Command. This is

24 Exhibit 273.

25 Can you scroll down the page, please, a little bit more, so that

Page 1867

1 you could see the signature.

2 Q. Witness, please, can you look at this document again? This note,

3 that the document was dispatched or delivered, is something that is

4 handwritten, "CVSVKOSKZP," so it's encrypted, sent to the 3rd Corps on the

5 14th of August, 1993, at 1630 hours, signed Hari, the person who

6 dispatched it. Is that what you were talking about?

7 A. Yes, I was talking about that.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Your Honours, can we now please look at -- Your Honours, do you

10 have any more questions on this, or can I continue with my next exhibit?

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: If you could go back to Exhibit 270, which I

12 thought you said that you would come back to.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour. This is what

14 I was going to do.

15 This is MFI 270. MFI -- all right.

16 Q. Witness, you answered questions from the Prosecutor about this

17 document, and this is a document appointing Sakib Mahmuljin as Chief of

18 Cabinet of the Supreme Command Staff, and the document is dated the 15th

19 of June, 1993. My question is about what Sakib Mahmuljin was doing in

20 early 1993. In response to my question, you said he was in

21 Sefer Halilovic's Cabinet. Am I correct?

22 A. Yes, I think that he was in Sefer Halilovic's Cabinet.

23 Q. And that after that, he went to Zenica; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, I know that after that he went to Zenica.

25 Q. Please, he never worked on duties during the time that you were

Page 1868

1 there in 1993, Sakib Mahmuljin never performed these duties?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. What is more -- at that time, in that period, he was not in

4 Sarajevo at all; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, I think that that -- he was not in Sarajevo at all.

6 Q. Can you see here the date, the 15th of June, 1993, whereby

7 Sakib Mahmuljin was supposed to be appointed to the establishment post of

8 Chief of Cabinet?

9 Earlier, we saw this authorisation of the 23rd of June that we are

10 discussing or that we were discussing. Do you agree? Do you recall that,

11 in the document created less than a month or three weeks after this

12 document, that it said in that authorisation that Sakib Mahmuljin was a

13 member of the 3rd Corps Command; do you recall the document stating that?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Please, if, on the 23rd of July, General Delic wrote that

16 document, and if this document here is correct, that he is his Chief of

17 Cabinet, he would not then address him as a member of the 3rd Corps

18 Command; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, yes, yes.

20 Q. Do you agree that there is something wrong with either of these

21 documents or with both of these documents?

22 A. Yes, I agree. I didn't see this document. Had I seen it before,

23 perhaps I would have reacted to this document first.

24 Q. And can we clarify one more thing that we discussed a little bit

25 earlier, please? An authorisation -- or any document that has a specific

Page 1869

1 number, if we want to check whether that document is authentic and whether

2 it's registered under that same number, we would be able to see that in

3 the protocol logbook; am I correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In the same way, if a document was sent to the 3rd Corps, it

6 couldn't just fly through the air. It would be recorded in the protocol

7 logbook of the 3rd Corps; am I correct?

8 A. Yes, it would have to be logged in the protocol book of the

9 3rd Corps Command, yes.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11 Your Honours, perhaps these documents can be put away.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we just see the bottom of the documents?

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Counsel, you said yourself that there was

14 something wrong with these documents, but I never understood what was

15 wrong, and I still have the question of why would General Delic deal with

16 the matter of integrating the Mujahedin into the 3rd Corps with anyone

17 else but the Commander, himself.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question is addressed to me? I

19 think that the communication should have been with the Commander, himself,

20 and probably General Delic should have communicated, and he probably did,

21 I assume, with the Commander of the 3rd Corps.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: So you do not have any -- so do you have any

23 recollection of why an authorisation to Mahmuljin was made? If you don't

24 have it, then that's fine, just say so. Then we will drop it.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The nature of this document is not

Page 1870

1 clear to me, "Authorisation," why it's done like that, who drafted it.

2 It's not clear to me. Many things about this document are not clear to

3 me. It was not logical. The contents -- from the contents, I think it's

4 a very brief document, not written in a military manner, not dispatched.

5 Many things about this document are not clear. I really cannot recall,

6 Your Honour, the contents. I mean, I can read it now, but in order to

7 confirm if I wrote the document or not, I really am not able to do that.

8 My initials are not there.

9 Each one of my documents bears my initials. In order for me to

10 protect myself, I would put my initials on each document I drafted.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. Let's proceed.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we just scroll down to the bottom of these two

13 pages. And the B/C/S, please.

14 Now, Mr. Softic, is it reasonable to assume that this document was

15 sent nowhere? It hasn't got any markings at the end of it, markings from

16 the Communication Centre, to say that it was received by the

17 Communications Centre and who it was sent to.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if this is an outgoing

19 document -- well, even if it's an incoming document, it would have to have

20 a marking that it had been received in the Communications Centre or that

21 it was sent from the Communications Centre.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does it have such marking?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not see any here.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we then assume that it was never in nor

25 outgoing, incoming nor outgoing? Perhaps it was never even drafted.

Page 1871

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can just see whether it was

2 incoming or outgoing on the basis of the top of the document. If I were

3 to be shown the top of the document, then I could see whether it was

4 outgoing or incoming.

5 Now I cannot, on the basis of -- this document did not even have

6 to be sent through the centre. You see, some mail went by courier,

7 messenger. Whether this was dispatched in some other way, I don't know.

8 However, as far as I can see, this is an outgoing document.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, are you then saying that there are other ways,

10 other than the Communications Centre, through which documents could be

11 dispatched?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And if there are such ways, it is therefore

14 possible for a document to be dispatched without it having markings at the

15 bottom like this one?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If a messenger carried it --

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: It doesn't matter. As long as it hasn't gone

18 through the Communications Centre, it is possible, like this one -- like

19 you're saying this one didn't go via the Communications Centre and this

20 one doesn't have markings. It is possible for documents to be dispatched

21 without them having markings on them, like through the courier, as you

22 say?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It could have been sent, but it

24 would have had to have been recorded at the destination, where it had been

25 sent originally. So if this was sent to the 3rd Corps, in the 3rd Corps

Page 1872

1 every document would have to be recorded, regardless of whether it arrived

2 through the Communications Centre or by courier.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Softic, you have introduced the mode of

4 dispatch through a courier to explain the absence of markings on this

5 document; am I right?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, and I'm just asking you: Is it therefore

8 possible that documents could be dispatched from your office other than

9 through the Communications Centre; as a result of which, there would be no

10 markings on the bottom of the document, e.g., through a courier?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it also possible, therefore, that the previous

13 document that we were talking about, which didn't have markings, could

14 have been sent through a courier, hence the absence of markings on it?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's possible, too.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 Yes, you may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Softic, please, do you agree that the 3rd Corps had its

20 headquarters in Zenica?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that Sarajevo was under siege?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It is not possible to send such documents by courier, especially

25 in that kind of situation; right?

Page 1873

1 A. With great difficulty, hardly.

2 Q. First and foremost, I wish to establish the following, and let's

3 see whether you'll agree with me. Couriers were used mostly within

4 Sarajevo?

5 A. Yes, that's true, within Sarajevo. A courier was within Sarajevo.

6 Q. Vis a vis the 3rd Corps, and to the 3rd Corps documents went

7 through Communications; right?

8 A. Through communications centres.

9 Q. There was not a single reason for this document not to be sent

10 through Communications, rather to be sent by courier?

11 A. For this particular document, I see no special reason why it would

12 be sent by courier. It should have been sent through the Communications

13 Centre.

14 Q. Thank you, thank you.

15 Now I'm going to ask you something that has to do with IKM Kakanj,

16 and I'll go back to the Operations Centre of the Supreme Command.

17 You mentioned that there was a command post at Kakanj that had

18 been established, and now I want to ask you the following: The Supreme

19 Command Staff could not have functioned efficiently as they operated from

20 Sarajevo that was under siege?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I just wish to ask you the following: Could you tell the

23 Honourable Trial Chamber, how far away is Sarajevo from Zenica, where the

24 headquarters of the 3rd Corps was, in kilometres, approximately?

25 A. I cannot tell you exactly, but I think it's about 100 kilometres.

Page 1874

1 Q. Thank you. And there were no buses, trains, traffic was

2 absolutely impossible because of combat operations and because of the

3 siege of Sarajevo?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Now could the witness please be shown document D208. For the

7 transcript, it's a document of the Supreme Command Staff, Sarajevo, dated

8 the 26th of November, 1993. It is entitled "Relocation of the Supreme

9 Command Staff Order."

10 Q. Witness, I would like you to just look at the introductory part of

11 this document. It says -- just read it, please. You don't have to read

12 it out loud. I want to put some questions to you in relation to that.

13 Do you agree that the Supreme Command Staff had assessed that in

14 order to ensure uninterrupted functioning of command and control over

15 combat operations on the ground, it was necessary to relocate a large part

16 of the Supreme Command Staff from Sarajevo to territory outside Sarajevo?

17 A. Yes, I agree with that statement.

18 Q. All right. Do you agree that this was the area of Kakanj?

19 A. Yes, I agree.

20 Q. Kakanj is about 40 kilometres away from Sarajevo; am I right?

21 A. Approximately, I think so. Maybe it's a bit more; I don't know.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 Your Honour, could this document please be given an exhibit

24 number.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

Page 1875

1 please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 279.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown --

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the number.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, could you please repeat the number,

7 because the interpreter did not hear you.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] D242. For the transcript, this is a

9 document of the Supreme Command Staff of the Armed Forces, dated the 2nd

10 of January, 1994, and it is entitled "Order for the SVK to go out to the

11 Command Post," submitted to -- et cetera.

12 Q. Please, just have a look at this. You see the first sentence

13 underneath "Order":

14 "The Supreme Command Staff will go out to the new command post on

15 the 5th of January, 1994."

16 Do you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What I wish to ask you, in relation to this, is the following:

19 This order was carried out; right? I mean, I'm asking you about the

20 Supreme Command Staff. A large part of it actually left --

21 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document

23 please be assigned an exhibit number?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

25 please be given an exhibit number.

Page 1876

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 280.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like you to look at

4 document D241. Again, this is a document of the Supreme Command Staff,

5 dated the 16th of February, 1994, entitled "Organisation of the deployment

6 of the Supreme Command Staff."

7 Q. Please look at this document. Please look at the introductory

8 part. Just a moment, please.

9 A. Could it please be zoomed in a bit so I can see it better?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The Bosnian version, please, could

11 it be zoomed in?

12 Q. Have a look at this, at the introductory part. You will agree

13 that it speaks about the indispensability of the Supreme Command Staff

14 being out in the field? Then please look at paragraph 1 of the order, it

15 relocates the following:

16 "In order to improve its functioning, the responsibility, its

17 place, and role in waging armed combat and commanding and controlling, it

18 is being relocated to the area of Kakanj."

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Please look at the first subparagraph or, rather, 1(b). You see

21 there is 1(a) and then there's 1(b)?

22 A. I can hardly see it.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] You can hardly see it.

24 Your Honour, I can give a hard copy of this document in Bosnian to

25 the witness, because it is legible in hard copy but not on the screen.

Page 1877

1 Could you please just give this to the witness?

2 Q. So we're talking about 1(b). Please take a look. I'm going to

3 quote it:

4 "The Operations Centre for the planning, preparation,

5 organisation, monitoring and commanding of combat operations, according to

6 establishment."

7 Please take a look. This regulates the following: That parts of

8 the Supreme Command Staff are being relocated, and this included the

9 Operations Centre, according to establishment; am I right?

10 A. Yes, yes, that's it.

11 Q. In other words, this Operations Centre was moved to Kakanj in its

12 entirety; is that right?

13 A. Yes, according to establishment.

14 Q. All activities related to combat operations took place in Kakanj?

15 A. The Operations Centre was duty-bound to follow combat operations

16 and the overall situation on the ground.

17 Q. General Delic, with a smaller number of his staff and his Cabinet,

18 remained in Sarajevo; isn't that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. He went into Kakanj every now and then; is that right?

21 A. He went to Kakanj every now and then, yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us how often this actually happened?

23 A. I think he went to Kakanj from time to time. When he went to

24 Kakanj, he often stayed outside Kakanj in the field with the units in

25 corps. I just know one thing, that when I'd look for him to tell him

Page 1878

1 something, that I could find him in Kakanj very rarely. Usually, I would

2 leave messages in relation to some information that I would have to deal

3 with; that is to say, establishing contact with him was very difficult for

4 me. It was really very difficult for me because he was on the move, he was

5 not just in one place.

6 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that he would leave Sarajevo very

7 briefly, for two- or three-day stints only, and then he would go back?

8 A. Well, was it two or three days or more, I don't know, but it was

9 always for a short period of time.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Your Honours, could this document please be assigned a number?

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

13 please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 281.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do apologise. Let me

17 just find the number that the Prosecutor used today, or, rather, can the

18 witness please be shown Exhibit 274 that the Prosecutor showed him today,

19 please, E274.

20 Q. Exhibit 274, please look at the first page. The Command of the

21 3rd Corps from Zenica sends this document, and then there's this first

22 part here. Could that please be enlarged, the Bosnian version, where the

23 stamp is, where it says: "Keep until the end."

24 Do you agree it says "SVK of the Armed Forces" and that you can

25 slightly discern "KM Kakanj"?

Page 1879

1 A. Yes, "SVK of the Armed Forces," and the rest, yes.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, thank you.

3 Could this document please be shown -- or, rather, page 4 of this

4 document, could it be shown, please? The fourth page.

5 Q. Do you agree that here there is a mark indicating receipt at the

6 Kakanj Supreme Command Staff and that it was dispatched and received at

7 the Kakanj SVK; am I correct?

8 A. Yes, you can see that it was received at the SVK Kakanj at 0020

9 hours.

10 Q. So the document was not received in Sarajevo; am I correct?

11 A. Yes, it was received at the SVK Kakanj.

12 Q. And I would like to ask you this now: It's correct, isn't it,

13 that from the point in time when the Operations Centre was transferred to

14 Kakanj, the Supreme Command and the Supreme Command Staff only received

15 summary reports from Kakanj, not the original versions of reports from the

16 3rd Corps?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. Thank you. The fact that this document was received in Kakanj

19 does not necessarily mean that General Delic ever saw it?

20 A. This does not mean that General Delic ever saw this document.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22 Your Honours, we can put this document away.

23 I would like to ask you something else now.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ten minutes, Madam Vidovic.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that I will be

Page 1880

1 finished very soon, perhaps in five minutes, something like that.

2 Q. Sir, you said that the situation in Sarajevo was very difficult;

3 is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It was difficult not only because of the siege by the Serbian

6 forces, but also because of internal misunderstandings within the army of

7 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

8 A. Yes, because of internal problems, that's right.

9 Q. Do you agree the situation culminated in July 1993 when the

10 Supreme Command Staff was attacked, as well as various police stations

11 throughout town?

12 A. Yes, I recall that. Perhaps it was in the month of June, but I do

13 recall that the situation culminated around that time, yes, correct.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I would like the

15 witness to look at D239. It's an order by the Supreme Command Staff of

16 the 25th of October, 1993.

17 Q. Witness, we can see that this is a document of the Commander's

18 Cabinet, drafted in the Commander's Cabinet?

19 A. Yes. Can you please scroll the document down more, more, so that

20 I can see the signature?

21 Q. Can we look at page 2 for the witness. Please, can you look at

22 this "Trebevic," please, before it disappears, you can look at "Trebevic"

23 and "Trebevic-2."

24 A. Oh, yes, and it's mentioned on page 2 as well.

25 Q. All right. Do you see down there the signature and stamp of

Page 1881

1 General Delic?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Please, you knew that an order was drafted in the Cabinet or,

4 rather, that General Delic took certain steps in order to resolve the

5 situation of crime in Sarajevo; am I correct?

6 A. Yes, but I didn't know any details. All I knew was just

7 information. I was not informed about all the details, but I was aware of

8 it.

9 Q. I'm not going to go into the details with you. All I'm asking is

10 if you knew about this order from General Delic.

11 A. Yes, I think that I did know it.

12 Q. And, please, please, you know -- look at item 5, please. Look

13 where it says that:

14 "Use all means at your disposal, including weapons, to bring in

15 Musan Topalovic, Ramiz Delalic, and others if there is any resistance or

16 opposition"?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You knew that such an order was issued?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you agree that this was carried out?

21 A. Yes, from what I know, yes.

22 Q. Do you agree that many people after this action were arrested by

23 the military organs?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Many of them were brought to trial after that; isn't that right?

Page 1882

1 A. I think so, yes.

2 Q. And these criminal proceedings are being conducted to this very

3 day in relation to these very events?

4 A. Yes, I think so.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Your Honours, can this document be given an exhibit number,

7 please.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 282.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we show the witness Exhibit 239,

13 please. Can you please scroll the document down for the witness to look

14 at the document? It's an order by General Delic, and it appears that you

15 drafted this document. It bears your initials.

16 A. Yes, correct, I did it.

17 Q. The document relates to the action plan for Trebevic-3?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, again I would like you to look at paragraph numbered 5. Do

20 you agree that this act -- please look at paragraph numbered 5:

21 "In case it happens that persons resist arrest, if they offer

22 resistance, use all means available, including weapons"?

23 A. Yes, that's what it says.

24 Q. Do you agree that with this order, General Delic ordered weapons

25 to be used in the same way that he ordered that in the other -- the

Page 1883

1 previous order on Trebevic-2 in Sarajevo?

2 A. Yes, in the same way.

3 Q. In the same way?

4 A. Yes, in the same way.

5 Q. In other words, the units in the field received an order that in

6 fighting with -- or in their fight against crime, they should use weapons

7 in order that appropriate disciplinary and criminal proceedings could be

8 instituted; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Your Honours, I just want the witness to look here at paragraph 6.

12 Q. Witness, can you please look at paragraph numbered 6 of this

13 document, where it says:

14 "In the area of responsibility of the corps in which the

15 Trebevic-3 action is carried out, determine certain facilities, as

16 collection centres, with maximum security, immediately conduct screening

17 and premature investigations in order to conduct disciplinary and criminal

18 procedures."

19 In other words, I understand that General provided for the arrest

20 of a large number of persons, and even for the setting up of a collections

21 centre where triage could be performed immediately and investigations

22 conducted, and where the criminals could be separated from those who were

23 not criminals.

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. And you know this order was ordered and that it was sent to all

Page 1884

1 the corps of the Bosnia-Herzegovina Army; am I correct?

2 A. Yes, this should have been dispatched to all of the corps, and you

3 can see that from this particular paragraph that it should have been

4 dispatched to all the corps.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much.

6 I have no further questions for this witness.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 Yes, Mr. Menon.

9 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I just have a few questions for the

10 witness. Witness. I do expect that I will probably go past the 1.45 time

11 limit, though.

12 If the witness could be shown Exhibit 271.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you say that again, Mr. Menon?

14 MR. MENON: Yes, Your Honour. Exhibit number 271.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to remind you, while we're waiting for the

16 exhibit, that there is another trial after this, so we will have to stop

17 at quarter to.

18 MR. MENON: Okay.

19 Re-examination by Mr. Menon:

20 Q. Mr. Softic, do you -- can you tell me who this document was

21 addressed to, if anybody?

22 A. The document is written in such a way in which I would not draft

23 it. From the heading, you would immediately need to see whom the document

24 is addressed; whereas, in this document you can only see in the actual

25 text that the document is being sent to the 3rd Corps Command.

Page 1885

1 Q. Can you point out where you see that particular text, that it's

2 being sent to the 3rd Corps Command?

3 A. It states at the top authorisation, authorising

4 Mr. Sakib Mahmuljin, member of the 3rd Corps Command, only on the basis of

5 the fact that Mr. Sakib Mahmuljin was a member of the 3rd Corps Command is

6 it obvious to me that the document was being sent to the 3rd Corps

7 Command. But I don't see that it was actually sent to that Command.

8 The document should have me, perhaps, as the person sending it

9 from the Cabinet, and also it should state the person to whom the document

10 is addressed, the Staff of the Command, saying that the document is being

11 dispatched to the 3rd Corps Command, but we don't have that, we don't see

12 that. Only on the basis of the actual contents, the text, do we see that

13 the document should have been sent to the 3rd Corps.

14 Q. Would you agree with me if I were to say that the document

15 entitles Mr. Mahmuljin to carry out certain activities? Is that apparent

16 to you from the first statement in the document?

17 A. You can see that from this document.

18 Q. In that case, would it be possible that this document would have

19 been handed to Mr. Mahmuljin, based upon your experience working in the

20 Cabinet?

21 A. If the document was to have any kind of official marking based on

22 which Mahmuljin would act, it had to go through a specific procedure.

23 Everything else is questionable. If the document was dispatched without

24 the proper protocol, without it being entered into the protocol at the

25 3rd Corps, it would throw doubt on the whole document. I would never

Page 1886

1 receive such a document. Had the document been sent to me and someone had

2 added a remark in handwriting that this is for such-and-such a person, I

3 would not have received such a document.

4 Q. Mr. Softic, I'm simply -- I'm not asking you whether the document

5 was dispatched. I'm simply asking you, based upon the content, based upon

6 that first sentence, and since you agree that the document entitles

7 Mr. Mahmuljin to carry out certain activities, whether it's possible that

8 it was handed to him.

9 A. I couldn't say, I really couldn't say. On the basis of my

10 experience, I couldn't do it, no.

11 Q. And the stamp which appears on the document, is that familiar to

12 you?

13 A. Yes, the stamp is familiar.

14 Q. And why is it familiar to you?

15 A. Because of the writing on the stamp and the size. Well, the size

16 varied, but not the content.

17 Q. And when you say "the size varied, but not the content," does that

18 mean that similar stamps appeared on other documents that originated from

19 the Cabinet?

20 A. Documents that were signed by the Commander had one stamp. I

21 don't know about others.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness.

23 A. Documents signed by the Commander had one stamp.

24 MR. MENON: I just have one final question, Your Honour.

25 Q. Is this the stamp that those documents would have?

Page 1887

1 A. I think that it is, yes.

2 MR. MENON: Thank you. I'll continue tomorrow, Your Honour. Thank

3 you.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 The case now stands adjourned to tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning

6 in Courtroom II, this same courtroom here.

7 Court adjourned.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day of

10 August, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

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