Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2020

1 Friday, 31 August 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody around the court.

7 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.

9 Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number IT-04-83-T, the

10 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 May we have the appearances for this morning, starting with the

13 Prosecution.

14 MS. SARTORIO: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, and

15 everyone in and around the courtroom. Laurie Sartorio and Matthias Neuner

16 for the Prosecution, with our case manager, Alma Imamovic. And we are

17 assisted by our intern, Anna Svensson.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 And for the Defence.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

21 morning to our colleagues from the Office of the Prosecutor and to all in

22 the courtroom.

23 Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson for the Defence of

24 General Delic, assisted by Ms. Lana Deljkic.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 2021

1 General, may we remind you that you are still bound by the

2 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony, to tell the

3 truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.


6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

7 Mr. Robson.

8 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Just two topics remain.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Robson [Continued]:

12 Q. Mr. Duncan, yesterday I put to you that you didn't know for

13 certain whether the Mujahedin or, indeed, the 7th Muslim Brigade existed,

14 and you replied: "No. It's on the record. This is eight years ago for

15 me, and if that's what I said, that's what I said." Do you recall giving

16 that answer?

17 A. Yes I do.

18 MR. ROBSON: Thank you.

19 If the witness could please be shown Exhibit 293, please. This is

20 the milinfosum dated 27th of June, 1993.

21 Your Honours, it's not displayed on my screen.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Neither is it on the screen of the Chamber.

23 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, this is not the document that I was

24 looking for. It was the milinfosum dated the 27th of June, 1993, number

25 59.

Page 2022

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it already an exhibit?

2 MR. ROBSON: It is. It --

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You called for Exhibit 293.

4 MR. ROBSON: I apologise if I am referring to the wrong document.

5 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has a hard copy of the document from

6 the 27th of June, 1993, if this would assist my learned colleague. You

7 can place it on the ELMO.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You see, Exhibit 293, Mr. Robson, was an Annex A to

9 milinfosum number 41.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You want the ORBAT order?

12 MR. ROBSON: Yes. Yes.


14 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour.

15 THE REGISTRAR: 290, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's Exhibit 290.

17 MR. ROBSON: I apologise.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's all right.

19 MR. ROBSON: So first of all we can just confirm that this is the

20 document that I'm talking about, and please if we could proceed to page 3

21 of this document.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, that's not it.

23 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, the document we see on the screen is the

24 one that I wish to refer to.


Page 2023


2 Q. Now, Mr. Duncan, on this page what we can see is the Order of

3 Battle for the 7th Muslim Brigade as assessed by one of your officers; is

4 that so?

5 A. Yes, it is, yes.

6 Q. And we discussed this during your evidence yesterday, didn't we?

7 A. Yes, we did, and we pointed out the nomenclature of all those

8 units.

9 Q. Now, having told us that you were not aware or are not aware

10 whether or not the 7th Muslim Brigade existed, is it right to say that you

11 cannot confirm that the commander of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim

12 Brigade in Travnik was Asim Korcic?

13 A. Personally, I cannot confirm that, no.

14 Q. And if I suggest to you that Asim Korcic was not even in Bosnia

15 and Herzegovina at the time this report was prepared, can you refute that?

16 A. I can't refute that, no.

17 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, I've finished with this document.

18 Perhaps it could be put away, please.

19 Q. I turn to the final topic, and that concerns Guca Gora.

20 Mr. Duncan, in your evidence yesterday you told us about a number

21 of Croats sheltering in a church at Guca Gora --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- in June 1993, and what you said was, I quote:

24 "My call signs, which were there on the ground, detected that

25 there was going to be a problem here because these people could well be

Page 2024

1 massacred."

2 Do you remember saying that?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 MR. ROBSON: If the witness could please be shown Exhibit 292,

5 please.

6 Your Honours, if we can just quickly look at the first page of

7 this document, we can see if -- this is Annex A to the milinfosum dated

8 the 8th of June, 1993.

9 Q. Do you remember this document from yesterday, Mr. Duncan?

10 A. Yes, I do now, yes.

11 Q. If we can turn to the second page of this document, please. Now,

12 the entry that I'm interested in is the one in the middle of the screen,

13 and that we can see that the six-figure number there is "081601." If I

14 could just read out this extract, it says:

15 "A CS attempting to reach Guca Gora is held up by Muslims in the

16 village of Mosor, who formed a human wall. Women lay in front of the

17 Warriors to prevent them leaving the area as they fear a potential

18 massacre by Croats."

19 Now, Mr. Duncan, yesterday you told us about Guca Gora, but it's

20 right to say that Muslim villages in that area were also under attack,

21 weren't they?

22 A. I believe so, yes.

23 Q. And if we can look at the extract a little further down the

24 screen, the six-figure number is "081905," we can see though it says:

25 "CO 1 PWO takes the decision to deploy Warrior overnight in

Page 2025

1 Guca Gora and Mosor to prevent any chance of a massacre."

2 So it's correct, Mr. Duncan, that you took the decision to leave

3 your vehicles in both Guca Gora and Mosor, the Muslim village, as well?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. ROBSON: If this document could be put away. I'd like to

6 refer to another one, please. This is a Prosecution document. It wasn't

7 entered into evidence. It's P1180.

8 Your Honours, this is a document from the assistant commander for

9 security to the brigade commanders of -- and one of the operative groups.

10 It's a document that's in both English and B/C/S. Perhaps the B/C/S

11 version could also be put on the screen as well, if possible.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Apparently there's some technical problem with the

14 B/C/S, and assistance is being sought to sort that out.

15 MR. ROBSON: Okay.

16 Q. First of all, Mr. Duncan, would you agree that this document is

17 dated the 8th of June, 1993?

18 A. I can see that from the top left-hand box, yes.

19 Q. Now, unfortunately on this English document, if we scroll to the

20 bottom of the page, the person who prepared this document is not named,

21 but I believe if we were to look at the B/C/S version, we would be able to

22 ascertain who the document is from.

23 I understand it's not possible to scroll down.

24 Your Honour, what I would like to put to this witness is that this

25 document was prepared by somebody called "Salko Bebe."

Page 2026

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it not possible to scroll down the B/C/S, to the

2 bottom of that? There's a stamp.


4 Q. If we can focus on the bottom part, Mr. Duncan, it is difficult to

5 see, but would you agree that that document appears to be -- appears to

6 come from somebody called "Bebe, Salko"?

7 A. Yes, I think so, yes.

8 Q. And is he somebody that you know?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. He's somebody that you had dealings with?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Now, please, if we could return back to the English version, if we

13 can only get that one on the screen, and it's the top half of the

14 document.

15 Now, we can see there a number of dashes, and it's the third dash

16 down that I'm interested in. In this document what Mr. Bebe says is that:

17 "Units of the 306th Mountain Brigade have captured Gornja Gora

18 and continue to advance towards Nova Bila. Measures are being taken to

19 prevent looting and the mistreatment of Croats who have remained in the

20 town; persons who demolished the church have been arrested."

21 So, Mr. Duncan, would you agree with me when I say that according

22 to this officer, when he wrote this report on the 8th of June, he

23 indicated that steps were being taken to prevent mistreatment of Croats in

24 that place?

25 A. I would agree with that, yes.

Page 2027

1 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, please, could this document be admitted

2 into evidence?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

4 please be given an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 304.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


8 Q. Mr. Duncan, during your time as commander of Brit-Bat, is it right

9 that you worked closely with the ECMM in Central Bosnia?

10 A. Yes, we did. We had a detachment with us in the Vitez school.

11 Q. And were you familiar with the coordination centre in Travnik?

12 A. Not particularly, but I was aware there was something there, yes.

13 Q. Were you aware that the head of the coordination centre in Travnik

14 was a former British officer by the name of Philip Watkins?

15 A. The name is -- I do remember that name, yes.

16 Q. Is he somebody you met whilst you were there?

17 A. Yes, I did meet him while I was there.

18 Q. It's right to say, isn't it, that the ECMM had a specific mandate

19 to monitor reports of atrocities being committed in the Central Bosnia

20 area; would you agree?

21 A. I would agree with that, yes.

22 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, at this stage if we could please go into

23 private session for a moment.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

25 [Private session]

Page 2028











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25 [Open session]

Page 2031

1 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 MR. ROBSON: This is my final document today. If Exhibit 293

4 could be brought up, please. This is a -- by way of explanation --

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Robson, I'm just looking at the witness's last

6 reply to your question as to whether Croat civilians could well have been

7 massacred in Guca Gora, and the witness, General Duncan, answered, "Yes,"

8 to your question of whether Croat civilians could well have been massacred

9 in Guca Gora. I'm not exactly sure how to interpret the meaning of your

10 question and certainly the answer of it by the General.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document contradicts that allegation.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: I don't see how the document the you have shown

13 could contradict the suggestion that the civilians could have. I guess

14 they could. But for one reason or another, they weren't. But, I mean --

15 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I'm glad -- I'm grateful for the

16 opportunity to clarify this. Perhaps we should return back to the

17 document. It would mean having to go back into private session, however.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

19 [Private session]

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Page 2032











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Page 2033

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11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honour.

13 MR. ROBSON: As I say, the document I'd like to refer to is

14 Exhibit 293, and this is Annex A to milinfosum 41 dated 9 June 1993. It's

15 the first entry that I'm interested in. It states "Sitrep."

16 Q. That's "Situation report," is it not it, Mr. Duncan?

17 A. Yes, it is, yes.

18 Q. "The situation has remained calm overnight in the Bila valley.

19 There are still approximately 150 Croats in the church of Guca Gora, some

20 of whom are HVO soldiers who have changed into civilian clothing and have

21 handed over their weapons. The BiH are allowing some Croats to return to

22 their houses to collect possessions and food."

23 Now, would you agree with me, General Duncan, that in a situation

24 where you have the Bosnian Army allowing Croat civilians to return to

25 their houses to collect possessions and food, this doesn't sound as though

Page 2034

1 it's a case that the Bosnian Army was wishing to massacre those civilians,

2 does it?

3 A. From what is said there, no, but I would remind you that I've

4 already said that we were being fired at during the day, the church and my

5 people.

6 Q. It rather indicates that the Bosnian Army was taking care and

7 protection over those Bosnian Croats, doesn't it?

8 A. Yes, but that, in turn, I would say begs the question as why those

9 people in that church were afraid of their future. They were scared and

10 frightened, which is why they were evacuated.

11 MR. ROBSON: I have no further questions. Thank you.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Robson.

13 Any re-examination, Mr. Neuner?

14 Re-examination by Mr. Neuner:

15 Q. Good morning.

16 First of all, Witness, I wish to excuse Mr. Mundis, who left

17 yesterday afternoon, and asked me to do the re-examination today.

18 My name is Matthias Neuner, and I'm going to put a couple of

19 questions to you.

20 You were asked yesterday by my learned colleague about the history

21 of the conflict in early 1993, the conflict between the HVO and the ABiH.

22 You replied, and this is on page 60, line 12-13:

23 "The only conflict I knew which had gone on was Ahmici."

24 I wish to show you document PT1082. While it is coming up, I can

25 introduce the document briefly. It's a document dating 27th of April from

Page 2035

1 Brit-Bat, and we can see here --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which year, Mr. Neuner?

3 MR. NEUNER: 1993.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 MR. NEUNER: And we can see here that it is being sent to Brit-For

6 Split on the first page, and to the headquarters in Kiseljak.

7 Q. Do you see that?

8 A. Yes, I do, yes.

9 Q. And if we could please scroll down on the first page in the

10 English version, and I'm interested in the 10th line from the bottom. It

11 starts with: "Brit-Bat personnel under the direction of UNHCR ...," and I

12 read it to you:

13 "Brit-Bat personnel, under the direction of UNHCR, moved 23

14 Bosniak Croat civilians from Miletici to Nova Bila. The five Bosnian

15 Croat corpses which resulted from the attack on Miletici were moved to the

16 local cemetery by Brit-Bat."

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.

18 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I wish to object to this particular

19 question. My line of questioning yesterday related to combat activities

20 in the Bila Valley, which the witness stated was the western part of the

21 Lasva Valley, in early June 1993. Miletici was not mentioned, and I don't

22 accept that that was a military action, so hence I don't see how this

23 question arises out of the cross-examination.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You say Miletici was not a military action?

25 MR. ROBSON: That's our position, Your Honour.

Page 2036

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, any response?

2 MR. NEUNER: My response would be that you had asked this witness

3 whether he can recall any early combat action between the HVO and the

4 ABiH, and you were referring -- or you got an answer relating to Ahmici,

5 and I'm referring just here to a document from Brit-Bat, from that exact

6 time period, it's the time period of Ahmici, and I'm trying to explore

7 whether this witness recalls the incident. And as I can see here, also,

8 and this would be a question I would have as well, the five Bosnian Croat

9 corpses --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry --

11 MR. NEUNER: -- resulted in an attack.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Neuner, we're dealing with an objection

13 right now. Don't carry on with the examination, yet.

14 What's your position? Is it your position that Miletici was a

15 military action or not?

16 MR. NEUNER: This document alleges this, and I was trying to

17 explore this with this witness. It's not necessarily the Prosecution's

18 position, but since this is a Brit-Bat document, authored at the time this

19 witness was in his position, I thought the witness could shed some light

20 on it.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.

22 Do you have any reply?

23 MR. ROBSON: If I could respond briefly.

24 First of all, it was the Prosecution that raised the issue of

25 Ahmici, not the Defence, Your Honours. Also, looking at this document, it

Page 2037

1 doesn't appear to me to suggest that Brit-Bat considered this to be an

2 action between the HVO and the BiH. So I fail to see the relevance.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I haven't read this document, but I think I'm

4 going to allow the question. The objection is overruled.

5 You may proceed.


7 Q. First of all, my first question is: Have you seen that document?

8 A. I would -- I'm sure I would have seen it.

9 Q. Yes. And can you confirm it's a Brit-Bat document?

10 A. It is a Brit-Bat document, yes.

11 Q. The information provided here on the first page, who at the time

12 would have compiled that information?

13 A. Could you scroll up slightly, that might... It would be put

14 together by the intelligence cell.

15 Q. It says here: "Drafter, Ruddock." Do you know who that is?

16 A. He would have been one of the staff in the cell.

17 Q. Thank you. Turning back to the incident of Miletici I've just

18 read out, do you recall that incident?

19 A. I don't particularly recall it, because in terms of what was going

20 on at that time, it was a relatively minor incident within the -- what was

21 happening.

22 Q. It says that five corpses were moved to a local cemetery by

23 Brit-Bat. Do you recall this?

24 A. That action of moving bodies for both sides, as it were, to make

25 sure that they got back to their own people, was something we did quite a

Page 2038

1 lot of in those early days.

2 Q. Okay, thank you. And it says 23 Croats are moved from Miletici to

3 Nova Bila. Can you explain what that might mean?

4 A. It might well mean that they were again probably in fear of

5 their -- of being attacked, and that's their perception, and we would have

6 moved them out of harm's way that might come.

7 Q. And Nova Bila at this point in time, late April 1993, who held

8 Nova Bila?

9 A. Nova Bila was -- I can't tell you, it depends which exact date it

10 was, but it shifted left and right, as it were, between the factions.

11 Q. So if it states that Croats are moved to that location by Brit-Bat

12 here in the document, 23 Croats are moved from Miletici to Nova Bila, who

13 at this point in time would hold Nova Bila?

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.

15 A. I don't know.


17 THE WITNESS: Sorry, sir.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.

19 MR. ROBSON: As the witness just answered, "I don't know." I

20 object to this line of questioning because Mr. Duncan has very clearly

21 said that he doesn't recall this incident, so the Prosecutor is inviting

22 him to speculate on what may or may not have happened.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, do you have any response?

24 MR. NEUNER: I'm not pursuing this line of questioning, but I

25 would ask that this document please be tendered into evidence.

Page 2039

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I think I must uphold the

2 objection. I think you were inviting speculation.

3 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

4 exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 306.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


8 Q. Yesterday, you were shown Exhibit 302, a document from the 28th of

9 May, 1993, and at page 110 of yesterday's transcript you were asked about

10 General Alagic and whether the system of command and control was breaking

11 down in Travnik at the end of May 1993. Do you recall?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Yes. I wish to show you another exhibit, Exhibit 294. While this

14 is being shown, pulled up, I can inform you this is again a milinfosum,

15 number 39, and dates from the 7th of June, so roughly a week after the

16 document Exhibit 302 which had been shown to you yesterday. And I'm

17 interested in paragraph 3, first of all, on the first page.

18 On the 7th of June, it is reported here:

19 "In general the situation is calmer with the town of Travnik

20 reportedly free of fighting and civilian movement ..."

21 Do you see that?

22 A. Yes, I do, yes.

23 Q. In general, do you recognise this report?

24 A. Yes, in general.

25 Q. And then in paragraph 4, it is stated that an HVO headquarter from

Page 2040

1 Commander Leutar in Jankovici had been completely demolished. Do you see

2 that?

3 A. Yes, and I remember that.

4 Q. You remember that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And in paragraph 4(a), it states:

7 "That the BiH now exclusively controls the town of Travnik ..."

8 Do you recall this as well?

9 A. Yes, I do recall that, yes.

10 Q. So my question to you is: What made the BiH Army control Travnik

11 on the 7th of June, 1993?

12 A. Because the BiH had effective control, military control, of the

13 town of Travnik at that stage, and therefore that -- and the Croats had

14 been expelled from that area.

15 Q. And where was the headquarter of General Alagic?

16 A. It was an old JNA barracks. I don't exactly know the name, but I

17 often visited that headquarters.

18 Q. In what town was it?

19 A. In Travnik.

20 Q. In Travnik?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. I wish to go back to the document Exhibit --

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.

24 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, this is a document that was introduced

25 by the -- into evidence by the Defence, and I wish to correct the record,

Page 2041

1 lest the Tribunal be misled.

2 This was the document that we discussed in connection with Croat

3 and Serb cooperation and Croat civilians crossing the Serb lines. The

4 question that my learned friend put to Mr. Duncan seems to suggest that

5 the HVO HQ was demolished as a result of ABiH action, and Mr. Duncan told

6 us that Croats were expelled.

7 If we can look at point B of the document, the comment there is:

8 "The HVO blew up their own HQ in order to stop anything of value

9 falling into BiH hands."

10 I think this matter needs to be explored before a misunderstanding

11 of the situation arises.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.

13 MR. NEUNER: Yes.

14 Q. Mr. Duncan, you have just heard this paragraph B which was

15 partially read out to you. Does that refresh your recollection?

16 A. Yes, it does. I mean, destroying your headquarters and moving out

17 is quite a normal thing to do. You would not leave behind anything of

18 value for the enemy to use, and therefore any communications that you

19 couldn't get out or other equipment that you couldn't use would be

20 destroyed, and you would then move away.

21 Q. My learned friend just asked this in relation to your use of the

22 word "expelled."

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you still hold the position that --

25 A. Yes, I would, that they were expelled, yes.

Page 2042

1 Q. Thank you. I want to move to another document now which was just

2 shown, Exhibit 305.

3 MR. NEUNER: This is under seal, Your Honours, so it may be worth

4 to move into private session.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

6 [Private session]

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3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


7 Q. While Exhibit 301 is being displayed, I can inform you a document

8 you have seen, I believe yesterday, from the 19th of May, 1993, from

9 Brit-Bat, and I have just a question relating to paragraph 2, which is

10 called "Joint Commission for Bosnia-Herzegovina."

11 You have several times referred to the joint commission. Could

12 you say what the mandate of the Joint Commission for Bosnia-Herzegovina

13 was?

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.

15 MR. ROBSON: Sorry. If you could spare me one moment, please.

16 Your Honour, if I'm wrong, I'll stand corrected, but my

17 recollection is that I did not raise the issue of the Joint Commission at

18 all, so again this appears to be another situation where my learned friend

19 appears to be using one document that we referred to as a springboard to

20 launch off into another area that was not dealt with during

21 cross-examination.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, is the Joint Commission referred to in

23 this document?

24 MR. NEUNER: It is referred to in paragraph 2.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, deal with it in the same way as we dealt with

Page 2048

1 the previous, please.

2 MR. NEUNER: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Q. Could you briefly transcribe the mandate of the Joint Commission

4 as mentioned in this report?

5 A. The Joint Commission was a commission, I believe, between the BiH

6 and the HVO. Apart from them trying to work together, to work together, I

7 do not know what the mandate of the commission is.

8 Q. Did you meet members of this commission?

9 A. I can recognise some of the names on both sides here on the

10 screen.

11 Q. Which names do you recognise?

12 A. Halilovic, Totic, and that is it at the moment. I can't recall

13 any more.

14 Q. And who was Sefer Halilovic?

15 A. Well, he was a BiH commander.

16 MR. NEUNER: Thank you. No further questions, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 Judge.

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, I haven't really

21 understood why there were these refugees in the Guca Gora church. Had

22 they been expelled from their houses?

23 A. I believe they had been expelled from their houses, and they had

24 gathered together as a bunch into the church, where they felt they would

25 be protected. The reason they felt they would be protected in the church

Page 2049

1 is that my -- Brit-Bat were surrounding the church and therefore making it

2 a safe area.

3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, but to your knowledge who

4 expelled them? Do you know who expelled them from their houses?

5 A. I don't know specifically who expelled them at all.

6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.


8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

9 General, your testimony during these two days have been very

10 interesting, but they have left some traces of doubt in my mind, and this

11 is why I would like to put some last questions to you, to clarify the

12 uncertainty.

13 You are well aware of the fact that the accused in this case is

14 charged, among other things, exactly with failure to control the

15 activities of some of the alleged crimes committed by the Mujahedin. And

16 this is why your testimony about the degree of control is of particular

17 importance.

18 You started out, as I recall, by asserting that, in your view, at

19 least the 3rd Corps and possibly also at higher echelons of authority, the

20 ABiH was very much in control of the activities of the Mujahedin. I think

21 these were your words, "very much in control."

22 During cross-examination, however, counsel for the Defence

23 presented you with a series of documents, and your comments to these

24 documents, as I recall, would leave some doubt as to just how much in

25 control was the 3rd Corps or the ABiH, as such, really in control of the

Page 2050

1 Mujahedin, and this is why in order -- before you leave us, I would like

2 to try these questions on you again and say do you -- and ask you: Do you

3 maintain the very firm position that you started out with, that you still

4 think that the 3rd Corps was very much in control of the Mujahedin, or the

5 ABiH, at some higher level, was very much in control of the ABiH [sic]?

6 A. Sir, thank you. I'm very much aware of some of the comments that

7 have been taken from my previous paper and previous attendance in this

8 Chamber, when I have obviously stated what I believed it was then. It is

9 in the space of some 15 years since I was actually in Bosnia. It's -- the

10 memory obviously fades, but there are some things that I still feel, and

11 some areas where I feel, that the Muslim Brigade, as it was, was used as a

12 very effective weapon by the ABiH during that conflict. Whether it was

13 used physically or just as a threat or to move around to frighten people,

14 I don't know, but I think it was used in such a manner. And I would

15 expect that to be done in a manner which enables the best activity from

16 that corps.

17 Because it is of such value as a fighting unit and as a propaganda

18 unit, I still believe it would have been held at a very high level in

19 order to be able to complete its activities as best as possible.

20 Therefore, it would be used with care on high-value targets, et cetera, et

21 cetera. I still believe that that's how it was used.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Two questions arise out of your answer. The first

23 question is: Who are you referring to when you say "the Muslim Brigade"?

24 There was something called the 7th Muslim Brigade and then there was the

25 Mujahedin Detachment. Which of the two are we talking about?

Page 2051

1 A. I was referring to the 7th Muslim Brigade. As to the -- whether

2 there were Mujahid, I've stated on record that I've never actually seen a

3 Mujahid, and that is very difficult. It's very difficult to say that

4 person is a Mujahid or that person isn't.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: My second question, then, relates to what you make

6 yourself of the evidence shown to you that the Mujahedin actually were

7 uncontrollable and apparently acted very independently?

8 A. I mean, a certain amount of evidence has -- has indicated that

9 way, but not, to my mind, in a firm manner, if that makes sense, Your

10 Honour.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could you clarify a bit?

12 A. Sorry, could you reset the question?

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. I understand you to say -- this is my

14 interpretation of your answer. I understand you to say that at least some

15 of the activities of the Mujahedin must have been coordinated at some

16 level because of the effect of having a force that was known to be quite

17 violent.

18 A. Yes, sir, I would agree with that.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: So I understand you to say, to this part of your

20 testimony, is that if you actually dispose over such a frightful force,

21 then that can be used very efficiently, and the way it was used on the

22 ground seems to suggest that there must have been some sort of

23 coordination. That is how I hear you.

24 A. Yes, sir, yes.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: My question to you was, then: Well, how does this

Page 2052

1 correspond with the evidence that we have seen during your testimony, that

2 at least at some other actions, the Mujahedin acted just as they wanted

3 to, independently and clearly without the ability of the ABiH to control

4 them. So how is that reconcilable?

5 A. It is very -- it is very difficult for us, my soldiers on the

6 ground, when they come across an incident, to know whether that incident

7 has been perpetrated by A, B, or C. I don't know. They would merely

8 report back what they had seen and what had happened, and therefore we

9 couldn't always put a tag straightaway on something, "That's clearly

10 Mujahid," or, "That's clearly HVO," or, "That's clearly ABiH would have

11 done that attack or that incident," and it is difficult, therefore, to put

12 a firm tab on those things and say that's actually what happened. In many

13 cases people were reporting back what they saw, and we would try and put

14 things together.

15 It was, for all of us, a very confusing period.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: That I accept. But it wasn't just a question --

17 it wasn't just a matter of investigating who was responsible exactly for

18 which action. The evidence that was brought to you yesterday and today

19 would suggest that it wasn't only the Brit-Bat or your own people who had

20 this perception of the Mujahedin of being inaccessible, it was all the way

21 around; UNHCR, UNPROFOR, everybody who tried to deal with the Mujahedin

22 were all told that they would not be given a very warm welcome.

23 A. Yes, sir, and I agree that that perception was agreed by everybody

24 during that time.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: So here we have it. There is a perception that is

Page 2053

1 widely accepted, that they were inaccessible and uncontrollable, yet you

2 say that there must have been some sort of coordination to guide their

3 actions?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: And this is the crux of your testimony?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: And I would like you to explore a bit on it.

8 A. There are -- there are, and you've just explained it, a body of

9 belief across the area we are looking at which people believed that the

10 Muslims and the Mujahid were out of control. We always tried, as a unit,

11 to make sure we reported back exactly what we saw, as I've just said.

12 Over those months that I was there, the seven months or so, I

13 still believed that this corps, this very effective organisation, was

14 being used at a high level, because it is like a special forces, they are

15 very, very carefully used over selective targets and used in that manner.

16 And I really -- I can't -- so, I'm sorry, I can't explain it any better

17 than that and it's probably not very helpful, which is unfortunate.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think this is about a convenient time to take a

20 break. We'll come back at quarter to 11.00.

21 Court adjourned.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

23 --- Resumed at 10.46 a.m.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Judge Lattanzi, you still have a question.

25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Please excuse me, but I still

Page 2054

1 have a question I'd like to put to you.

2 I'm still a bit confused about some matters after listening to

3 your latest answers, and I'm thinking in particular of the 7th Muslim

4 Brigade and of the Mujahedin. There is still some confusion remaining, it

5 seems to me, in terms of these two units.

6 And the first question I wanted to put to you was as follows: You

7 mentioned investigations conducted on the ground. You said it was

8 difficult to find out who had done what. But when it comes to the facts

9 that are at the heart of this case, in order to determine whether the

10 Mujahedin were responsible, you were not in a position to say that they

11 were responsible or if they were responsible, because you were not aware

12 that they were in Bosnia, you were not aware of their presence in Bosnia;

13 is that what you said? In other words, my question -- sorry, I'll

14 rephrase my question in a more clearer manner.

15 My question is whether those who committed or seemed to have

16 committed these crimes, whether Mujahedin or not, you were not able to

17 determine whether that was the case in your unit, you were not in a

18 position to answer that question, because you stated here -- you repeated

19 here what you stated in a previous case in this Tribunal. You repeated

20 that you were not aware that the Mujahedin were present on the ground

21 because you were not in a position to make a distinction between those who

22 were members of the Mujahedin and the others, you were not in a position

23 to make a distinction between the various factions?

24 A. That's correct, because I was very seldom able to get to any of

25 those locations where incidents might have happened. I had to rely upon

Page 2055

1 my troops, when they were on the ground, reporting back, and they recorded

2 what they had seen and we put that into the milinfosums, which is why the

3 milinfosum is so important, reporting, to get a body of evidence of

4 perhaps of what's going on.

5 But you're entirely right to say that I personally can't say, with

6 my hand on my heart, that I ever saw a Mujahedin, because I hadn't. I was

7 never in a position to see one, as it were, because my job was not to go

8 out personally on the ground, it was to control events and try and stop

9 things happening that shouldn't happen, to prevent more fighting, to make

10 sure the aid got through.

11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I understand what you're saying

12 about your own personal position, but talking about your battalion, did

13 you receive reports about the presence and the participation in the

14 fighting of foreign individuals that were named "Mujahedin."

15 A. Yes, I did receive -- get reports from my soldiers on the ground

16 of such people fighting, yes.

17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] One further question.

18 Judge Harhoff asked you a question, and when answering that last question

19 of his, you referred to the Mujahedin. And here I'm slightly confused,

20 because I had believed that you were referring to the 7th Muslim Brigade

21 at first, but here apparently you are referring to the Mujahedin. I

22 apologise, but this is really a question of vital importance for this

23 case, and we need things to be clarified. We need to be able to make a

24 difference, the distinction between the 7th Muslim Brigade and the

25 Mujahedin.

Page 2056

1 Judge Harhoff put a question to you, and you stated, in answering

2 that question -- you stated the following. Well, his question was about

3 the fact that they were inaccessible and uncontrollable. Referring to this

4 "they" mentioned here, later on you said, "I believe that the Muslims and

5 the Mujahedin were out of control" -- no, sorry, no, sorry, that was the

6 question put to you by Judge Harhoff. When listening to you, I got the

7 impression that the Muslims and the Mujahedin were out of control. That's

8 what Judge Harhoff said to you.

9 And then you keep talking about the Muslims and the Mujahedin, and

10 I'd like to understand. I do not understand. Are you talking about the

11 Mujahedin or are you talking about the 7th Muslim Corps? That's what I'd

12 really would like to know.

13 A. I believe there was a corps -- the 7th Muslim Brigade was a

14 fighting unit of the ABiH that was composed of BiH soldiers. Within that

15 brigade, and most of them were Muslims, there were perhaps 10 per cent, I

16 believe - I can't verify it - something like 10 per cent who were Mujahid

17 and would represent in clothing and behaviour. So you would have the

18 7th Muslim Brigade with an element of outsiders who have come in and may

19 be polluting that brigade and causing incidents.

20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I understand. Therefore, you are

21 talking about individuals who you call "Mujahids" and were members of the

22 7th Muslim Brigade; you're not talking about the El Mujahedin Detachment?

23 A. I'm talking of the 7th Muslim Brigade, Madam.

24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, I'm going to have to pursue that

Page 2057

1 question a little more, because that's what I also wanted to get clarity

2 on. And there's a springboard to that question.

3 Let me refer you to the question by Judge Harhoff, where he

4 says and this is at page 32, starting at line 9. He says:

5 "Two questions arise out of your answer. The first question is:

6 Who are you referring to when you say 'the Muslim Brigade'? There was

7 something called the 7th Muslim Brigade, and then there was the Mujahedin

8 Detachment. Which of the two are we talking about?"

9 Your answer was:

10 "I'm referring to the 7th Muslim Brigade. As to whether there

11 were Mujahid, I have stated on record that I have never actually seen a

12 Mujahid, and that is very difficult -- it's very difficult to say that

13 that person is a Mujahid or that person isn't."

14 Now, I just want to put something very clearly to you here. Within

15 Bosnia at the time, the allegations are that there was what was called

16 "The 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade" which was a part of the Army of Bosnia

17 and Herzegovina?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, you have said that according to your

20 knowledge, that brigade had some 10 per cent outside Muslims.

21 A. That's what I believe, sir, yes.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what you believe. Then apart from that, and

23 I'm not asking you about whether you know of -- you have seen a Mujahid

24 person, I'm asking you now about a unit, there was also within Bosnia what

25 was called "The El Mujahedin Detachment" --

Page 2058

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- which was a detachment, and this is the subject

3 of this case. Now, my question to you is: Were you aware of the

4 existence of a unit called "The El Mujahedin Detachment"?

5 A. Personally, I was not aware of that designation, but I was aware

6 of reports and sightings of a number of so-called Mujahid groups, I mean

7 small groups, around the place, which came back from my soldiers. They

8 would mention, for example, sir, that, "We had been at a check-point and

9 there were a group of Mujahid in the background," and it would be four or

10 five people, these sort of sightings, sir.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, we have heard evidence --.


13 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- of various groups of --.


15 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- for lack of a better word, what were called Arab

16 units --

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: But they were not exclusively Arab. They came from

19 various countries. But of interest to us is what is called -- they called

20 it "The EMD," "The El Mujahedin Detachment." Now, you say, as you sit

21 there, you are not aware and were not aware at the time of the existence

22 of this unit that is called "The El Mujahedin Detachment"?

23 A. That's correct, sir.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And when you talk of Mujahedin in your evidence

25 right through your testimony, you were actually referring to the 7th

Page 2059

1 Muslim Mountain Brigade.

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. So wherever we see the word "Mujahid" or

4 "Mujahedin" used by you, we can safely substitute "7th Muslim Brigade" for

5 that word?

6 A. Apart from those who were in those small groups that I've just

7 discussed.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine.

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Hold on a minute.

12 What is your basis for assuming that the Mujahedin persons

13 belonged to the 7th Muslim Brigade?

14 A. Because of the numbers, sir, that were seen when my liaison

15 officers were around and able to see that brigade. There were numbers

16 of -- within that estimated 10 per cent or so that were the Mujahedin in

17 that brigade.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: How am I to understand this? Do you mean to say

19 that your people, when they were patrolling the territory or the area,

20 they saw Mujahedin persons, Arabs, as we have come to call them in this

21 trial?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: They saw Arabs, and when they saw Arabs, there

24 were always people from the 7th Muslim Brigade also present at this point;

25 is that what you're saying?

Page 2060

1 A. They were normally part of the 7th Muslim Brigade, but I would

2 refer back to these occasional groups, five or six, that might be dotted

3 about in other places.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. But, you see, my wish is to understand how

5 you link these groups or Arab individuals with the 7th Muslim Brigade.

6 That's what I want to be sure that I understand you correctly.

7 A. Well, I believe, sir, that -- that roughly 10 per cent within the

8 7th Muslim Brigade were Mujahedin, in terms of being much more fanatical

9 than others within that brigade.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: But how do you know they were the 7th Muslim.

11 A. Because they were part of it and seen along side others within

12 that brigade, and the commanders there would -- we would talk. My liaison

13 officers would talk with the commanders and discuss, "Oh, yes, where has

14 he been," and, "Where has he come from," and things like that. It was

15 just discussions almost every day across the entire organisation.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: The heart of the matter is whether, in your view

17 and having your knowledge, these individual or groups of Arabs could have

18 acted outside as not being members of the 7th Muslim Brigade?

19 A. That is -- that is possible if they would be detached for an

20 operation at a higher level than within 3rd Corps. They could well have

21 been picked up and moved to do a different task. Therefore, they have

22 taken outside of 3rd Corps and given another task from something above or

23 somewhere above. That is quite feasible.

24 As an officer commanding, that is quite normal, to take somebody

25 for a specific task, move them out, get that task fulfilled, and then put

Page 2061

1 them back where they were.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Are you aware of any evidence to show this?

3 A. I'm aware that that's what happened, because you would find that

4 the bits of the Muslim Brigade we thought were going to be there weren't

5 and had moved away, and we would have to track them down and see where

6 they'd got to.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, sir.

8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] One small point. You're talking

9 about the Mujahedin who were part of the 7th Muslim Brigade. Are you

10 talking about local Mujahedin or are you referring to Arabs, because I've

11 never heard you use the word "Arab."

12 A. I've never used the word "Arab" at all. You're quite right,

13 ma'am.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The other part of the question was: Are you

15 referring to local Mujahedin?

16 A. It was very difficult to -- it was relatively easy, rather, to see

17 and identify those people who were dressed in Arab clothes within the

18 Muslim Brigade. At the same time, there would be others outside of that

19 brigade, on blocks and things, who may well not have been Muslims at all

20 but were dressed, because it was the thing to do, in the Muslim manner,

21 because they thought it was tough and macho and all the rest of it, and

22 that was -- and so that was local boys in many cases, young people.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 Any questions arising from the questions by the Bench, Mr. Neuner?

25 MR. NEUNER: I have a question to the Bench first. Is it allowed

Page 2062

1 to use a document which was not on the exhibit list as submitted by my --

2 I see Mr. Harhoff says, "No." Then the Prosecution has no further

3 questions.

4 We would have, relating to that topic, a document, which we could

5 show to this witness, which touches upon the issue of coordination,

6 Supreme Command, 3rd Corps, but we are aware that this is not on

7 Mr. Mundis' exhibit list, and so therefore I would have no questions.

8 Thank you.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions by the Defence?

10 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honour. Just two matters.

11 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Robson:

12 Q. There's a high degree of confusion about your evidence,

13 Mr. Duncan, but from what you've told us, you did not personally see a

14 foreign Mujahedin fighter. You also told us earlier that you didn't know

15 whether or not the Mujahedin existed.

16 It's right to say, isn't it, when you said that the command of the

17 Mujahedin was at a higher level, that amounts to pure speculation, doesn't

18 it?

19 A. In that as a military commander, part of my being here is to be

20 able to give evidence on that part of being a military commander, and it

21 is my opinion that a brigade like that would be used like that. But it's

22 an opinion, it's a comment, and we've talked about comments.

23 Q. Well, you're not here as an expert witness, are you? And you

24 would agree with me that what was happening in Central Bosnia and Bosnia

25 as a whole was not a normal situation in the way that would understand a

Page 2063

1 NATO-styled military conflict to be run; is that right?

2 A. That is correct, yes.

3 Q. And then the last matter, just in response to a question from one

4 of the Judges, you said that, "That's why the milinfosum is so important,

5 reporting, to get a body of evidence of perhaps what's going on."

6 The fact is, Mr. Duncan, that the creation of the milinfosum was

7 not to create evidence, was it, or gather evidence; is that right?

8 A. I think it was, it was to gather -- sorry, it wasn't to gather

9 evidence. It was to gather facts.

10 Q. And as you explained in your evidence yesterday, the purpose for

11 gathering facts was to enable Brit-Bat to create the conditions for aid to

12 be delivered?

13 A. That's correct, yes.

14 MR. ROBSON: If you just bear with me one moment.

15 Those are my questions. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 This brings us to the conclusion of your testimony, Mr. Duncan.

18 Thank you very much for taking time off your very busy schedule to come

19 and testify, and you are now excused. You may stand down.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

24 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. We have our witnesses who should be ready --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 2064

1 MS. SARTORIO: We need the next witness to be brought in,

2 Mr. Djuricic.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


8 [The witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, sir.

10 Madam Sartorio.

11 Examination by Ms. Sartorio:

12 Q. Sir, could you please state your full name?

13 A. Zdravko Djuricic.

14 Q. And where were you born, sir?

15 A. In Belgrade.

16 Q. Could you please briefly tell the Chamber about your education and

17 your post -- education post that you held in your field of study?

18 A. I completed elementary school, secondary school, and law school in

19 Sarajevo. After that I worked as a trainee in a court of law. And then I

20 was a judge for about four years, I think.

21 After that, I worked in the Ministry of Justice. At that time, it

22 was called "The Secretariat for the Judiciary." I worked there for five

23 years. I worked on the supervision of regular courts in

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 After that, I went to the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, where

Page 2065

1 I worked as secretary of the Commission for Pardons. Then -- at the same

2 time, rather, I was adviser for general legal affairs in the Presidency.

3 When the war started, I became deputy secretary general of the

4 Presidency and after that the secretary general of the Presidency.

5 Q. Can we just get some dates in here in terms of when you finished

6 law school and when you worked at the Ministry of Justice and then when

7 you started working at the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

8 A. I got my law degree in 1974, I think it was. Then I did my

9 military service. When I returned from the army, I took my first job as a

10 trainee. I think that was in 1976.

11 In 1977, I was already a judge.

12 In 1981 I worked in the Ministry of Justice, and then in 1985, I

13 think, in the Presidency.

14 And then in 1992, I became deputy secretary general, and I think

15 it was also in 1992 that I became secretary general of the Presidency,

16 too.

17 Q. And how long were you the deputy and secretary general, in terms

18 of the year range? Was it 1992 through what year?

19 A. Well, formally until December 1994.

20 Q. So I'd like to concentrate your testimony on the time period that

21 you were first deputy, then secretary general of the Presidency.

22 Could you tell the Court briefly what your duties were in that

23 capacity?

24 A. Well, apart from being deputy secretary general and secretary

25 general, I continued to act as adviser for general legal affairs and

Page 2066

1 secretary of the Commission for Pardons. This was the period when some

2 advisers, who were ethnic Serbs, had left Sarajevo. So these posts

3 remained vacant and therefore I had to do that work as well.

4 Basically, as deputy secretary general and as secretary general, I

5 was Chief of Administration. So questions that were resolved in that

6 domain primarily had to do with preparing sessions of the Presidency,

7 preparing the material that would be discussed at Presidency sessions,

8 work on having proper copies provided for all the members of the

9 Presidency, scheduling Presidency sessions, setting the agenda, and so on

10 and so forth, and of course attending sessions of the Presidency itself,

11 where I had the right to participate in the debate, but I did not have the

12 right to vote.

13 Q. Now, before we get into the actual Presidency sessions, could you

14 please tell the Chamber what constituted the Presidency in 1992 to 1994?

15 A. Well, the Presidency had two representatives respectively of the

16 constituent peoples, two Croats, two Serbs, two Muslims. I'm going to say

17 "Muslims," although they're called "Bosniaks" nowadays, and I find it

18 easier to still call them "Muslims," and it really corresponds to the

19 truth, because that's what we called them in those days. So two Croats,

20 two Serbs, two Muslims respectively, and one from the others -- other

21 ethnic groups. It was Ganic, specifically, in this case. He was a

22 candidate of the Yugoslavs, and that is how he won the election.

23 According to the provisions of the then Constitution, in

24 conditions of war that started in 1992, the Presidency was an expanded

25 Presidency consisting of three additional representatives, too; namely,

Page 2067

1 the Prime Minister, the President of the Assembly, and the

2 commander-in-chief of the army, no matter what this person's rank was.

3 According to the Constitution, this person was called this or that, but,

4 anyway, it was the person who commanded the army.

5 Q. Thank you. So if my math is correct, during times where -- normal

6 times, there were seven members of the Presidency; is that what you -- and

7 then during these --

8 A. Yes. Then ten in conditions of war.

9 Q. Okay. Are these numbers required by any law?

10 A. I don't know. I think it was set in the Constitution and the

11 Rules of Procedure of the Presidency, but I'm not sure. I cannot say for

12 sure.

13 Q. Do you know what role the Presidency played in times of war?

14 A. Well, in times of war the Presidency, in addition to its other

15 functions, took over the function of the Assembly, the Parliament, that

16 is, but also I think that this is what the Trial Chamber will be more

17 interested in, the Presidency was practically the Supreme Command of the

18 Armed Forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 MS. SARTORIO: At this time I would like the witness to be shown

20 P000042. It's an exhibit -- oh, excuse me, Exhibit number 42 from the law

21 library.

22 And particularly -- this is a long document, but if we could

23 scroll to -- it's Article 222, which in the B/C/S version is page 22, I

24 believe, in English it's 108 and 109.

25 If we could zoom in on Article 222.

Page 2068

1 Q. Sir, can you identify what this document is, or this part of the

2 document?

3 A. Precisely what I've been talking about now. I don't know what

4 this is. It may be the Constitution.

5 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. Well, sorry to make you do this, Mr. Usher.

6 Can we see the first page of the document? Thank you.

7 A. I still can't see what this is about. Sorry, this is just the

8 Official Gazette.

9 Q. If you could read -- scroll down and see if you come to any point

10 where you can --

11 A. Yes, it's the Constitution, yes.

12 Q. Okay, thank you. Now can we go back to Article 222. So this is

13 the Constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina that was in effect in 1992 to 1994.

14 Okay.

15 Now, Article 22 --

16 A. Exactly.

17 Q. Sorry. Article 222 discusses, in the second paragraph -- well,

18 excuse me, the first paragraph:

19 "During the period of martial law, the composition of the

20 Presidency is extended to improve the President of the assembly, the

21 President of the government, and the Chief of the Supreme Command Staff in

22 the armed forces of Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

23 Is that what that says?

24 A. Yes, precisely.

25 Q. Then the Constitution goes on to say that "During the period of

Page 2069

1 martial law, the Presidency is the Supreme Command of armed forces of the

2 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

3 Is that what it says?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And one more sentence:

6 "The extended Presidency during the period of martial law

7 organises and directs the defence of all forms of national resistance on

8 the territory of the Republic."

9 Is that what it says?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. SARTORIO: We may put away this exhibit, Your Honour.

12 Q. Now, you mentioned that there were sessions. Can you tell us what

13 these sessions were? In other words, were they regularly-scheduled

14 sessions or did an event have to happen in order for sessions to arise?

15 A. Well, it depended on the situation. Generally, we had sessions at

16 least once a month. However, depending on what was going on or what kind

17 of degrees with the force of law were supposed to be adopted, and

18 depending on the political situation, sometimes they would be scheduled

19 three to four times a month.

20 Q. And were you present -- can you -- were you present at most of

21 these meetings during your tenure as deputy and secretary general?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us, during the time that you held these posts,

24 approximately how many sessions there might have been, if you can recall?

25 A. I really cannot recall. Tons of them, for sure.

Page 2070

1 Q. Now, were these sessions tape-recorded?

2 A. For the most part, yes. Again, it depended on the facilities we

3 had. May I remind you that at that time in Sarajevo there was no

4 electricity, no water, no heating, things like that. However, for the

5 needs of the Presidency, we had two generators, or was it one - I cannot

6 remember exactly - that we used precisely for that, in order to have the

7 Presidency sessions recorded. I cannot say for sure whether they were all

8 recorded, but at the end of all the minutes, it would say whether the

9 session had been tape-recorded. If so, it says that that recording

10 constitutes an integral part of the material from that session.

11 Q. If -- were there other means of recording what occurred during the

12 sessions if, for instance, there was no electricity?

13 A. Yes, yes. It would happen that minutes would be done in hand.

14 They would be handwritten. This was usually done by my deputy,

15 Alija Selimovic, who regrettably died in the meantime.

16 Q. Now, could you just explain briefly to the Chamber the logistics

17 in terms of the tape-recording? You -- presume you had some subordinates,

18 and what would they do prior to the meetings and during the meetings and

19 then after the meetings, what would they do with the tape-recordings or

20 minutes of the sessions?

21 A. As for the tape-recording of the sessions, there were two men who

22 were in charge of that. One was Ibro Delic, and the other one who was a

23 professional and who had been doing this in the assembly and then was

24 transferred to us, it was a man called Kemal, Kemo. Unfortunately, I

25 don't know his last name, but for many years he worked on that in the

Page 2071

1 Assembly, and he often helped out in the Presidency. They would prepare

2 the room for the recordings.

3 There was another group of people who worked on the reproduction

4 of documents, if there was enough time for that, and then this would be

5 distributed to members of the Presidency, along with an invitation to

6 attend the session.

7 Q. And approximately how long would these meetings last?

8 A. Again, it depended on the items on the agenda. I can tell you one

9 thing, that not a single session was short and none of them were less than

10 two hours long.

11 Q. And after the sessions were over, were the tape-recordings taken

12 to a particular place and then transcribed?

13 A. Yes, precisely, because we had a typing pool. Typists worked in

14 this pool. They were top professionals. They did excellent work, and

15 they worked in the Presidency practically from its very inception. To use

16 their professional jargon, they transcribed the sessions, everything that

17 had been said or, rather, everything that had been recorded on these

18 audiotapes, they directly typed out as a transcript.

19 Q. And then were the transcripts and tape-recordings stored in

20 someplace, archives or somewhere?

21 A. Yes, yes, they were stored -- or rather the originals were stored

22 in the archives. Later on, I found out -- well, to tell you the truth,

23 this is something that I did not have to worry about at the time. The

24 tapes were stored in a special safe, and the transcripts in archives.

25 However, copies of all of these transcripts and minutes, if any of the

Page 2072

1 members of the Presidency expressed an interest in seeing what was in the

2 entire transcript, then these copies would be submitted to members of the

3 Presidency and every one of the members of the Presidency had the right to

4 ask for the transcript of a session where he had participated in the

5 discussion, particularly that section that pertained to his own remarks.

6 Q. Now, just to back up a minute, when after the transcripts were

7 prepared, were they reviewed by anyone or by everyone in the Presidency?

8 A. No. All members of the Presidency would have the entire minutes

9 by the next session. The minutes were actually an abbreviated version of

10 the transcripts. And at every following session, they would agree to what

11 had been said at the previous session. That was always the first item on

12 the agenda.

13 Q. What types of matters were discussed at these Presidency sessions?

14 A. Well, for the most part, these were questions that pertained, for

15 instance, to supplies, power sources, the adoption of legal documents,

16 decrees during the war, then appointments that the Presidency was in

17 charge of, starting with diplomatic representatives to the directors of

18 some public companies and things like that.

19 Of course, the situation in Sarajevo itself was discussed, too,

20 precisely because of what I was saying a few moments ago, that even the

21 most basic supplies were not available at times.

22 Q. Were military matters discussed?

23 A. No, no, never, in the sense of discussing some kind of military

24 strategy or operations or individual actions, no. These were not subjects

25 that the Presidency dealt with.

Page 2073

1 Q. Did the subject of the Mujahedin ever come up at any of these

2 meetings?

3 A. Absolutely not, never. I heard about the Mujahedin in 1999. This

4 really was never a topic of discussion at Presidency meetings.

5 Q. Now, apart from -- now, you just said "meetings." Do you mean

6 meetings or sessions?

7 A. Sessions, sessions. I'm sorry.

8 Q. Now, were most of these sessions public?

9 A. Most of them, yes.

10 Q. Now, were there instances where the sessions would not be public

11 and would not be recorded?

12 A. Yes, there were, but usually the president would first make such a

13 proposal to the members of the Presidency, and then a decision would be

14 taken by all members to that effect.

15 Q. And can you tell us what some of the matters might have been or

16 were that were not subject to recordings?

17 A. Usually, as far as I can remember, I cannot say with certainty,

18 but usually if it was assumed that certain individuals who may have been

19 proposed for certain positions in Bosnia or outside of Bosnia would be

20 discussed, and that there might be divergent views about it.

21 Q. Now, do you recall a session where General Delic was discussed?

22 A. The first time that I personally heard of Mr. Delic was, I think,

23 at the beginning of the summer of 1993, when General Halilovic was

24 replaced.

25 Q. Do you recall the session at which this occurred?

Page 2074

1 A. Yes, I remember very well, because Halilovic's replacement was a

2 major surprise for me. I think even he was surprised. I hadn't heard

3 anything about it before that, nor was I aware of it, so that I was

4 extremely surprised when President Izetbegovic made this proposal to

5 dismiss Halilovic and appoint Mr. Delic.

6 Q. Do you recall what time of day the appointment was made?

7 A. I can tell you approximately, and based on my own experience

8 regarding session times, it could have been between 10.00 and 11.00 in the

9 morning.

10 Q. But as you sit here today, you don't recall the date, do you?

11 A. No, no. I remember that it was early in the summer, but exactly

12 what date it was, I really can't remember. Shall we say June, the

13 beginning of June, something like that.

14 Q. Now, apart from the formal Presidency sessions, whether they were

15 public or private and recorded, were there other meetings that you were

16 aware of that took place of members of the Presidency -- which included

17 members of the Presidency?

18 A. Yes, there were, and it wasn't just that I was aware of them;

19 everyone knew about them. These were meetings attended by certain members

20 of the Presidency, the president, and usually the man in charge of the

21 army. Earlier, it was Halilovic, and later, Delic.

22 Q. And who were the other members that generally attended these other

23 meetings?

24 A. Well, Ganic, Haris Silajdzic, as far as I can remember, yes, he

25 too.

Page 2075

1 Q. Was either Ganic or Mr. Silajdzic the president of the Assembly?

2 A. No, but Silajdzic was the Prime Minister.

3 Q. Correct. But pursuant to Article 222, the Presidency was extended

4 to include the president of the Assembly. Is that correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. What position did Mr. Ganic hold?

7 A. He, too, was a member of the Presidency.

8 Q. Were any other members of the Presidency in attendance at these

9 private meetings?

10 A. Not as far as I know.

11 Q. Was a person by the name of Miro Lazovic present?

12 A. It says "Miro Lasic," but I can't say straightaway that neither

13 Miro Lasic or Miro Lazovic ever attended, to the best of my knowledge.

14 Q. Yes, I was going to question you about both of them, but I did say

15 "Lazovic." Do you recall what position Mr. Lazovic held at the time?

16 A. Miro Lazovic was the president of the Assembly, and Miro Lazovic

17 was a member of the Presidency on behalf of the Croats.

18 Q. Do you know who Franjo Boras was?

19 A. Yes, of course. He, too, was a member of the Presidency on behalf

20 of the Croatian people.

21 Q. And was he in attendance at these private meetings?

22 A. No, not as far as I know, particularly as Franjo Boras did not

23 spend most of the time of the war in Sarajevo, he was not in Sarajevo.

24 Q. Do you know who Mirko Pejanovic was or is?

25 A. Mirko Pejanovic was a member of the Presidency. And if you're

Page 2076

1 asking me what he is now, he's a professor at the university.

2 Q. And did he attend these private meetings?

3 A. No. As far as I know, no.

4 Q. Can you tell us the ethnic composition of the four persons that

5 you mentioned who were in the attendance at these private meetings, if you

6 know?

7 A. Yes. They were all Muslims.

8 Q. Now, were other members of the Presidency -- let me rephrase that,

9 please.

10 Were you aware whether any other members of the Presidency were

11 upset at these meetings, the fact that these meetings occurred?

12 A. I wouldn't say that they were disturbed or upset. They were -- it

13 would be better to say that they were curious about what was going on

14 there, and they talked about it amongst themselves. I'm referring to the

15 people who were outside that group.

16 Q. That's correct, thank you. Now, do you know what was discussed at

17 these private meetings?

18 A. I really have no idea.

19 Q. Have you ever heard of an operation called Operation Trebevic --

20 A. Trebevic.

21 Q. Excuse my pronunciation.

22 A. I know which specific Trebevic operation you are referring to.

23 There were attempts to make a breakthrough at Trebevic, which is a

24 mountain in the vicinity of Sarajevo. If, if you're referring to one of

25 those operations, or perhaps an operation which settled accounts with the

Page 2077

1 criminal groups in Sarajevo, if that is how it was called.

2 Q. I'm speaking about the operation that settled accounts with

3 criminal groups in Sarajevo. You're familiar with that; okay.

4 Now, was the topic of criminal groups discussed at all in the

5 sessions or mentioned in the sessions?

6 A. At Presidency sessions, there was frequent mention of criminal

7 groups who were out of control of the police and the army and which are

8 not within the system of subordination. They were mistreating citizens,

9 looting them, and that something had to be done about them.

10 Q. Was there any further discussion other than something had to be

11 done about them?

12 A. No. I assume that the plan of the operation itself, the way it

13 was implemented and the rest, was agreed upon at one of those closed

14 meetings which was not attended by the other members of the Presidency,

15 because I knew nothing about it, and I would have known had it been

16 discussed at Presidency sessions. I mean, I didn't know anything about

17 the details of the operation, nor when it would take place, nor how it

18 would take place.

19 Q. Now, sir, on Wednesday evening, two evenings ago, and yesterday

20 afternoon, did you have an opportunity to review transcripts and/or

21 minutes of Presidency sessions that occurred during 1993 and 1994?

22 A. Yes, I had.

23 Q. And do you recall today approximately -- I mean, do you recall

24 right now how many sessions you reviewed, if you recall?

25 A. I don't know the exact number. I didn't look at them all in

Page 2078

1 detail, but I did most of them.

2 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, may we have a moment, please? Thank

3 you. You.

4 Okay. Thank you, Your Honours. Sorry.

5 Your Honours, at this time -- well, one further question.

6 Q. Did you determine that you were present at most of the meetings

7 that you reviewed?

8 A. Again, we are talking about sessions. Here it says "meetings."

9 Q. Yes, that's correct. Thank you for correcting me. The session --

10 the minutes and transcripts that you reviewed, were you --

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. And when we attended the proofing session, were there some

13 meetings that you realised you had not attended?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you recall the number of those meetings?

16 A. I don't know, but maybe 15 or so, 12 to 15. I don't know exactly.

17 Q. But you reviewed the transcripts of the sessions; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. From your review of these documents, does that -- does it support

20 your testimony -- well, you said to your memory the Mujahedin was never

21 discussed at these sessions?

22 A. Yes, yes. They were never discussed, as far as I can remember,

23 absolutely not.

24 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, at this point we would like to admit

25 in evidence the transcripts and minutes of the sessions. We have --

Page 2079

1 although they were premarked at individual sessions, we have put them into

2 e-court under one exhibit number -- or two exhibits numbers, I apologise.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecutor has

5 informed us about this in a letter. We discussed it, and I do not object

6 for the Prosecutor to tender this document in this way. But during the

7 cross-examination of the witness, I will certainly be using the exhibits

8 that were in the e-court earlier because it would be most confusing me to

9 use parts of this exhibit that is being tendered by the Prosecutor. I

10 think the five TOs that had been entered into the e-court can be used by

11 us without any problems.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio, you are not planning to tender a

13 whole lengthy documents on minutes of the sessions; you're going to tender

14 parts that you are dealing with?

15 MS. SARTORIO: Well, no, Your Honour. We are tendering the

16 minutes of all the sessions. There are approximately 58 sessions, and

17 they total about 900 and some odd pages. And the reason is to show that

18 this issue was never discussed. So unless you have the full document, I

19 don't see how they can be of the value.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want us now to read through 900 pages to

21 determine that the issue was not talked about?

22 MS. SARTORIO: No, Your Honour. We have the witness's testimony

23 and the documents, and you may look at them.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: If the witness has testified that the issue was

25 never discussed, unless it is controverted by some other evidence, why

Page 2080

1 shouldn't we believe it? Why should we have 900 pages to support that

2 point?

3 MS. SARTORIO: Well, I would encourage you to believe the witness,

4 but the documents are to substantiate the witness's testimony. That's --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: But they can only substantiate the witness's

6 testimony if we are going to read through 900 pages to determine one

7 little point, that this issue was never discussed.

8 MS. SARTORIO: Well, it may -- it may become contentious later on,

9 Your Honour. The decision was made and the trial strategy of the case to

10 introduce the transcript of these meetings through Mr. Djuricic, and

11 that's what we're here to do today.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, that may have been the strategy. You're

13 saying what?

14 MS. SARTORIO: I mean, there may be other witnesses who may speak

15 about other parts of these transcripts -- of these sessions. I'm not -- I

16 can't say that right now. I don't know if that's -- that is in the

17 future, but --

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't think there's any problem, other people

19 talking about parts of the transcript. What is the point, if I understand

20 you clearly, you want to tender into evidence 900 pages of documentation

21 to support one little fact, that -- the question of what? The Mujahedin,

22 was never discussed?

23 MS. SARTORIO: Well, yes, Your Honour, that the Mujahedin was

24 never discussed and it was a very important topic for the Presidency that

25 was the supreme command of the army, and the Prosecution would suggest

Page 2081

1 that it is compelling evidence and --

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Carry on, Madam.

4 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. And the Prosecution requests that these be

5 admitted as support for its case. We're not asking the Court to read 900

6 pages of documents this afternoon. It is part of the record for the

7 entire Prosecution case, because -- to substantiate what the witness has

8 said.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not suggesting that you want us to read them

10 this afternoon, but you want us to read them sometime in the future before

11 judgement is written. I'm just wondering whether this is good use of the

12 resources, to read 900 pages to determine that Mujahedin was not

13 discussed, when the witness has told us it was not discussed.

14 Maybe, if I may just turn to the Defence on this point before we

15 make a ruling on this point. Is this a disputed fact, Madam Vidovic?

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour, of course it

17 is disputed.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I would imagine that if it is disputed, at the

19 relevant time the Defence would refer us to the relevant pages of the 900

20 pages to show where it was discussed.

21 Okay.

22 MS. SARTORIO: Do you want me to respond to Judge Harhoff's -- I

23 wasn't sure I was supposed to hear that. Do you want it to be marked for

24 identification at this point in time, Your Honour? We will be happy to

25 mark it for identification at this point.

Page 2082

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not happy to mark it for identification because

2 I'm not quite sure whether marking it for identification means -- absolves

3 me from reading it, and I don't want to read it if only to determine --

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. President, if I may just intervene. The

5 suggestion was made by me. My idea was that if we mark the 900 pages now

6 for identification, then the Defence will take us to the particular pages

7 in those 900 pages where war matters or Mujahedin are discussed, and then

8 we end up saving those pages into evidence. Is that possible?

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the same way as the

10 Prosecutor is saying, in general terms, that the matter was not discussed,

11 the Defence will assert in a similar way that it was discussed, without

12 indicating the specific pages, as the Prosecutor hasn't done.

13 I have tried, in the same way as you, talking to Madam Sartorio. I

14 said that we would like to be clearly informed on which pages of those

15 exhibits the Prosecutor wishes to rely on to be able to prepare our

16 defence, and I tried to indicate to the Prosecution that this was a major

17 problem. But the Prosecutor decided to use it in this way. I don't mind,

18 but you will see, from the cross-examination, which is not the time now

19 for me to discuss in detail, it is not quite as simple as the Prosecutor

20 claims, and I don't think it was a good solution for exhibits to be

21 tendered into evidence in this way.

22 MS. SARTORIO: If I may, Your Honour.

23 The Prosecution originally was going to introduce each session

24 individually, but that, in our assessment, was going to be a huge,

25 incredible waste of time to introduce the minutes of 54 sessions, which is

Page 2083

1 why we did it in bulk. And the reason we're introducing them is to prove

2 a negative, so there aren't specific pages that are more important than

3 other pages. The Prosecution's position is that the entire lot of

4 documents, all of the minutes of the sessions, are relevant to the proof

5 that it's held to.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll mark the 900 pages for identification.

8 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. I'll identify the exhibit number for

9 identification. It's P06193A and P0 -- excuse me. P06193, then P06193A,

10 and we have provided an index of these documents, and that can be found at

11 P06193B.

12 Just another question, Your Honour. May I proceed?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, not yet. We've got to give an exhibit number

14 to what you have just been telling us, and I'm not sure whether you want

15 three exhibit numbers or you want one exhibit number. I don't know how

16 these things go.

17 MS. SARTORIO: We had to split up the documents into two exhibit

18 numbers rather than the one we wanted to use because of the length of the

19 documents.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: But then you have given us three -- three of

21 numbers.

22 MS. SARTORIO: The third number -- 6193 is the first lot of

23 sessions; 6193A, the second lot; and then for purposes of reference we've

24 provided an index of the documents, and we have had to enter that into

25 e-court separately as 6193B.

Page 2084

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've told us that. Now, those are three separate

2 documents. Do you want three --

3 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour, we ask that these three documents

4 be marked for identification.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but under three exhibit numbers?

6 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. Well, it's three parts of one exhibit number.

7 It's the same exhibit number, 6193, but it's plain 6193, then 6193A and B,

8 so it's three parts to one exhibit.

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm told that you will have to use three exhibit

11 numbers for these.

12 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number P06193B, which is the

14 list or the index, will be Exhibit number 307; 65 ter number P06193 will

15 be MFI 308; and 65 ter number P06193A, the supplemental document, will be

16 MFI 308.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Wait a minute, it looks like you've

18 given us -- now, you have given us two numbers only, sir. I would

19 expected you to go up to 309.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, if I might repeat those numbers --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please.

22 THE REGISTRAR: The first 65 ter number is P06193B, which is the

23 index.


25 THE REGISTRAR: That was being assigned MFI 307.

Page 2085

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: MFI 307, right.

2 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number P06193 will be MFI 308.


4 THE REGISTRAR: And the supplemental list of documents, which is

5 65 ter number P06193A, will be MFI 309.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's better. Thank you so much.

7 And on that note, I think we can take a break, unless this is not

8 a convenient point.

9 MS. SARTORIO: I just have one more question on direct, but --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, go ahead.

11 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

12 Q. I would just like to, sir, bring you back to the session at which

13 General Delic was appointed commander of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

14 and ask you if you know the point in time when the appointment was

15 effective. Was it effective at that point?

16 A. As far as I can remember, it was a decision that was effective

17 immediately. From the afternoon of that day, Mr. Delic was the

18 commander-in-chief of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as far as I can

19 remember.

20 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

21 No further questions, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 We'll take an adjournment and come back at half past 12.00.

24 Court adjourned.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.

Page 2086

1 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

3 Cross-examination by Madam Vidovic:

4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Djuricic. I will be putting questions to you

5 today on behalf of the Defence of General Rasim Delic.

6 A. Good afternoon, Mrs. Vidovic.

7 Q. First of all, you're a Bosnian Serb; right?

8 A. Yes, since the war. Until then, I was a Yugoslav.

9 Q. Thank you. You told us that you spent part of your career as a

10 judge of the Second Municipal Court. Then you worked in the Ministry of

11 Justice, and when working there, you were responsible for supervising the

12 work of court throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. That involved supervision over the work of offices of prosecutors?

15 A. Well, to a lesser degree. I mainly focused on courts of law.

16 Q. Whatever, you do know how offices of the prosecutors worked?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. You explained to us that in 1992, you worked as a legal adviser to

19 the entire Presidency, and then a secretary general. In actual fact, did

20 I understand this correctly, you were chief of administration of the

21 Presidency, including certain financial aspects?

22 A. Well, mostly.

23 Q. Now I'm going to ask you something about sessions of the

24 Presidency, in general terms.

25 Sessions of the Presidency were recorded, or at least minutes were

Page 2087

1 kept; is that right?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Now, in relation to these handwritten minutes, you told us that

4 sessions lasted very long, at least two hours; is that right?

5 A. That's right. I don't even remember any exceptions of less than

6 two hours.

7 Q. You also told us that you looked through all these minutes. The

8 Prosecutor showed you these minutes; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you agree with me that sessions that had handwritten minutes

11 were very short? These minutes are two or three handwritten pages; right?

12 A. That's right, and the handwriting is not all that legible, either.

13 Q. All right. Do you agree that these two or three handwritten pages

14 do not reflect at all what happened at these sessions; would you accept

15 that?

16 A. That is absolutely correct.

17 Q. Now I'm going to go back to the members of the Presidency, and

18 then yet again to these sessions.

19 Please, all members of the Presidency, regardless of their ethnic

20 affiliation, took part in the sessions on an equal footing; right?

21 A. Yes, these sessions of the Presidency.

22 Q. Now we are talking about sessions of the Presidency?

23 A. Yes, yes, on a fully equal footing, I agree.

24 Q. And they made decisions on an equal footing; right?

25 A. Precisely.

Page 2088

1 Q. Do you agree that all members of the Presidency from time to time

2 visited parts of the territory of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

3 including civilian institutions, but also barracks and defence lines? You

4 know that because you authorised their travel, you issued these travel

5 authorisations, am I right, for their per diems, and whatever?

6 A. Well, I'm sure about these per diems as for touring the defence

7 lines around Sarajevo, no per diems were issued for that. But I can say

8 with certainty that Pejanovic and Tatjana Mijatovic did go to the defence

9 lines.

10 Q. In other words, they toured military barracks, defence lines,

11 corps? That was the essence of my question.

12 A. Well, I don't know about outside Sarajevo, but I know that they

13 did go to the lines in Sarajevo and around Sarajevo, and they visited

14 headquarter staffs that were in Sarajevo itself, at least the two persons

15 I referred to.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness

17 please take a look at D296 now, please.

18 Q. Could you please take a look at page 1. The date is, say, the

19 16th of January, 1994?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Tour of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it says:

22 "A member of the Presidency of RBH, Mrs. Tatjana Ljujic-Mijatovic,

23 will make a tour of the free territory --"

24 And Zenica, Travnik, Vares, Breza, Orlavo [phoen] are referred to.

25 So do you agree, first of all, that Mrs. Ljujic-Mijatovic was a Serb

Page 2089

1 member of the Presidency?

2 A. Precisely.

3 Q. Do you agree that she went outside the territory of Sarajevo and

4 toured these municipalities, that this is what the document says?

5 A. I don't know whose document this is. Is it a document of the

6 Presidency or of the Supreme Command Staff?

7 Q. The Supreme Command Staff.

8 A. I mean, I can talk about documents that I, myself, signed perhaps

9 or knew of. It fits into what you said just now because Tatjana did go

10 out and visit the lines of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Could the witness please look at paragraph 8 on the next page now.

13 Q. Just briefly, could you take a look? Do you agree the signature

14 is General Delic's here, and do you agree with me that paragraph 8 says:

15 "The Corps Commands, as the delegation visits the areas of

16 responsibility, should provide transport and security for the delegation

17 where the delegation is touring, the zone of responsibility, and paragraph

18 9 says: A plan should be drawn up for the tour and presented to

19 Mrs. Tatjana Ljujic. In other words, she is allowed to take part in

20 drafting the plan of the visit?

21 A. Yes, that's right. That stems from the document that we see.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Your Honours, could this document please be assigned an exhibit

24 number?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, let me just establish one point

Page 2090

1 with you, Witness.

2 Does this document arise out of the Presidency of which you were

3 secretary?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is a document of the

5 Supreme Command Staff of Mr. Delic.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It has nothing to do with the Presidency?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not with my line of work or the

8 Presidency.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 The document -- yes, Madam. The document is admitted into

11 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit number 310.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness, please, in response to the question put by the Presiding

16 Judge, you said that this document has nothing to do with the work of the

17 Presidency. Do you agree, actually, that this refers to a visit by the

18 Presidency and its Serb member, Tatjana Ljujic-Mijakovic, a member of the

19 Presidency, who is touring the field?

20 A. No doubt that Tatjana was a member of the Presidency and that here

21 she is touring the troops of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina as a member of

22 the Presidency. However, this order has nothing to do with the

23 Presidency. It's not a decision that was signed by -- all right.

24 Q. Very well. Yes, yes, thank you, that was the point of my

25 question.

Page 2091

1 Please, now I'm going to go back to the sessions. The sessions

2 were prepared in advance; isn't that right?

3 A. Yes. Exceptionally, if an urgent matter cropped up, then the

4 president would call me, and I would telephone the other members of the

5 Presidency to tell them that there was an urgent matter that had to be

6 reviewed at a session.

7 Q. Thank you. In principle, in advance you would receive draft

8 decisions that had already been written out?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. These drafts were made by various sponsors, government agencies,

11 government bodies?

12 A. And Commands.

13 Q. And the Supreme Command Staff?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Proposals had no legal force before being adopted; right?

16 A. Precisely. This was a worthless piece of paper if a decision of

17 the Presidency had not been made in this regard and not signed by the

18 president of the Presidency, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 Your Honour, I would like the witness to have a look at document

21 MFI 160.

22 Q. This is a document entitled "Proposal for the Presidency," dated

23 the 2nd of June, 1993, and could you please take a look at this document.

24 A. You're putting a question to me?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 2092

1 A. Obviously, this document is just a proposal for organisational and

2 personnel changes in the armed forces. This paper is valueless while it

3 was still submitted to us as a proposal. This is a legal technical thing

4 that you are certainly aware of. It existed before the war, too, and now.

5 The sponsor of a proposal makes a draft, lists, say, persons who

6 are supposed to be leaders in the military. Their names are given in a

7 certain order. But only once the Presidency makes a decision adopting

8 this kind of proposal and once the president of the Presidency signs this

9 kind of document, then it would have the legal force of a decision.

10 Q. Thank you for such an exhaustive explanation, Witness. Could you

11 please just look at the last page of this document.

12 Can we see where the signature is, please?

13 So do you agree that this is not the final document, what we see

14 here?

15 A. No, this is not a decision. There is no signature, it doesn't say

16 at what session it was adopted. It doesn't say who attended the session

17 and so on.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

19 Your Honours, could the document please be put aside, or rather,

20 Your Honours, I would like it to be assigned an exhibit number.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Even though it's not signed?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, because in the

23 Pre-Trial Brief the Prosecutor used it and referred to it as a final

24 document, as if it were a document that had been adopted, but now we've

25 received an explanation.

Page 2093

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the document please be given an exhibit number.

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, then it will be marked Exhibit 160.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document please be put

5 aside now, and I'm going to ask you now about the minutes.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, Madam Vidovic.

8 I have a difficulty in admitting this last document into evidence

9 because I thought that the principle that we have established for

10 admission of documents into evidence was that -- through a witness, was

11 that there would have to be a relation shown between the document and the

12 witness. Otherwise, that document would be inadmissible through that

13 witness. And I was just wondering if there is any link between the

14 witness and this document. He seems to not know of it, and it's only a

15 draft. Its value is questionable. So could you please clarify the link

16 between the document and the witness?

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness, you have heard His Honour. I asked you questions in

19 connection with the proposal coming up for discussion at the Presidency

20 meeting, and Their Honours are asking what your connection is to this

21 document.

22 Isn't it true that you prepared documents for sessions of the

23 Presidency; they prepared them, not literally?

24 A. The documents such as this one was just one of thousands that

25 reached the Presidency and that were distributed or should be distributed

Page 2094

1 to all Presidency members for them to be able to comment on such a

2 proposal.

3 Now, what you asked me was whether this was a proposal or a

4 decision. My answer is that it was a proposal. It is of no value unless

5 it has been discussed and signed by the president.

6 Q. In other words, this was a proposal for a session to be held on

7 the 8th of June, 1993, so this is something directly linked to your work;

8 am I right?

9 A. I cannot say which particular session was involved, nor do I

10 remember this particular paper. And if it was a proposal, I am sure that

11 I must have received it and distributed it to the other Presidency

12 members.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, is that sufficient now?

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: It isn't sufficient, but I'll have to take a

15 reservation on it. So I will dissent [Realtime transcript read in error

16 "assent"] From the opinion to admit it. Thanks.

17 Excuse me. For the record, I said I will dissent.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there's no problem. I

19 can withdraw the proposal to tender this document, if you feel that that

20 would be more appropriate. I just wanted to hear the explanation of the

21 witness.

22 Thank you. And may I proceed?

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: I do not wish to change your views, so let us just

24 proceed.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 2095

1 Q. The Prosecution has shown you a series of minutes from sessions,

2 and recordings of meetings that you attended, or General Delic, or

3 General Siber or Divjak; isn't that so? Now, in that connection, I have a

4 few questions for you.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, could the witness see

6 D311, please.

7 Q. This is a list of documents and sessions shown to you by the

8 Prosecution. And in preparations for this trial, the date is the 16th of

9 August of this year. And will you please pay attention --

10 MS. VIDOVIC: Your Honour, I spoke to the witness earlier on. I

11 know that he speaks and reads English, so we're actually just referring to

12 the numbers of these sessions.

13 Q. So in this central column, will you look at the numerical

14 indication for the sessions?

15 A. You mean, the 4th, the 15th, the 20th?

16 Q. Yes. These were mostly sessions for which the attendees are

17 indicated, and these were sessions that you, yourself, attended, and you

18 said yourself that you did not attend some of them; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. However, at some sessions your presence cannot be established at

21 all. For example, the 205th session, dated the 5th of July, 1993. I will

22 refer to Exhibit 1384, P01384, then 229th session of the 26th of November,

23 P1630 and P1631, then the 234th session, held on the 2nd of January, 1994,

24 P1670. We have these minutes, but it is not possible to establish the

25 presence of this witness at those sessions.

Page 2096

1 Let me ask you something else in connection with this list. The

2 Prosecution showed you minutes from the 8th of June, 1993, until the 22nd

3 of June, 1994. Would you agree with me that by the ordinal numbers of the

4 sessions, one can see that some are missing? Look on page 1. You will

5 see "204th, 205th, 206th," and then "208th, 211th, 212th," 211th is

6 missing, and then you have the 213th missing. And then if we can look at

7 the next page of this document. By reviewing these documents, if you look

8 at this page, you will see the 218th, 219th, 220th, 225th, are missing.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you please ask the witness questions. You

10 know, you're telling us what we can see, and I think we're taking a lot of

11 time you testifying instead of you asking the witness questions. Why don't

12 you establish all these things you are saying by asking questions to the

13 witness rather than making such a long speech? I'm not sure where you're

14 going with this speech.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [No interpretation]

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: We have no translation.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I thought it would take

18 less time if I did it this way, Your Honour, but I will ask the witness

19 the question.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: We don't know what you're saying. You're just

21 telling us things that we can see, and we don't know what is the point you

22 want to establish. Ask your question.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Do you agree that sessions were recorded in chronological order?

25 A. I assume so, but I have to draw your attention to the fact that

Page 2097

1 minutes, the missing minutes, were the subject of a special investigation.

2 Q. What I'm asking you is the following: You, yourself, did not

3 review them before this trial, did you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And you don't know what was discussed at those sessions?

6 A. Of course not. Even when I reviewed the minutes of sessions that

7 I did attend, it took time for me to refresh my memory.

8 Q. You also don't know who attended those sessions?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Would you agree that it is absolutely not necessary for someone to

11 attend from the Supreme Command Staff for the question of the Mujahedin to

12 be discussed; would you agree with that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Izetbegovic himself could have spoken about it?

15 A. Yes, anyone.

16 Q. The Minister of Internal affairs, Bakir Alispahic, could have

17 talked about it?

18 A. Bakir was not present at sessions frequently, but he would come

19 with respect to particular issues and at the invitation of the Presidency.

20 Q. Would you agree that the question of the Mujahedin was a security

21 question, in a sense?

22 A. In a sense, yes.

23 Q. According to regulations, wouldn't that be within the purview of

24 the Ministry of the Interior?

25 A. Yes, when we are talking about entry into the country, documents

Page 2098

1 and things like that, yes, certainly.

2 Q. Thank you. So you can talk to us here only about the sessions

3 which you attended?

4 A. Yes, also if you remind me, because it was a long time ago.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would now like to

6 focus on the recorded sessions that you have already discussed. If this

7 document can be put away, and could the witness now see P1752.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you want us to do with this? Do you want

9 us to admit it or do you not want to admit it?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. Yes,

11 could it be, please, admitted into evidence and given an exhibit number.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

13 please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 311.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Counsel, microphone.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone, Madam Vidovic.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] P1752 now.

20 For the record, until we see the document, it is minutes of the

21 249th session of the Presidency, held on the 15th of June, 1994, which I

22 am using as an example.

23 Q. Witness, will you please look at page 1. And then could the

24 witness immediately see page 6 of the Bosnian and English versions, page 6

25 of the Bosnian and English versions, please.

Page 2099

1 Witness, will you please pay attention to the end of this

2 document. Do you agree -- could Their Honours also see the English

3 version, please. Could you roll it up a little so that we can see the

4 bottom. Thank you.

5 Witness, will you please look at the words where it says

6 "tape-recording," "magnetic tape-recording," and would you agree that the

7 minutes are recorded --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: What paragraph?

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 4, Your Honour, the last

10 two sentences.

11 A. Yes, it was customary for the minutes to end with these words.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. And would you agree that the transcript of a recorded session is

14 complete if it is -- if it ends in this way?

15 A. Are you talking about the transcript or the minutes? The minutes

16 are complete, and then as I explained earlier on, the tape-recordings were

17 taken down and transcribed in the typing bureau, and then it was complete.

18 Q. When we're talking about the minutes, then it must end in this

19 way?

20 A. Yes, it must if it is a tape-recording.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document be

22 given an exhibit number, please?

23 Q. Otherwise, if the minutes do not end in this manner, it means that

24 it is not complete?

25 A. No, it means that no tape-recording was made unless this sentence

Page 2100

1 appears, where it says that "the magnetic tape-recording shall constitute

2 a component part of the minutes." It would mean that the session was not

3 tape-recorded.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. That is helpful, too.

5 Could this document be given an exhibit number, please, Your

6 Honours.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'll ask the question I asked earlier.

8 Notwithstanding that this has not been signed by anybody?

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I can see,

10 these minutes were always like this. They were never signed.

11 Q. Am I right?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I didn't hear the witness say "yes."

14 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

15 exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 312.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document be

19 put away and could the witness see P1579.

20 Until we see the document on the screen, for the record, it is the

21 minutes of the 221st session of the Presidency, held on the 18th of

22 October, 1993. And I have chosen a handwritten report from that session.

23 Q. Can you please look at page 5 of this document. Page 5, please.

24 Can we see the end of the document?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that the end of the document [indiscernible]?

Page 2101

1 You're talking about the English --

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, would you agree that sessions of which the minutes were

4 written by hand, it should have an end indicating who chaired the meeting,

5 who took down the minutes and so on?

6 A. That would usually be stated at the top of the document, that is,

7 those present, and that applies to all minutes, including those written by

8 hand. I don't know the reasons for the minutes being taken in this way.

9 Probably there was no electricity. But in practice, we accepted such

10 minutes as well.

11 Q. But do you agree that we can't see whether this is the end or

12 whether the session ended?

13 A. If that is the end of the document, then it hasn't been completed

14 in a regular manner, because the words -- it should state the session

15 ended at such-and-such an hour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we scroll down to the end of the English

17 version, please. Can we scroll down to the end of the English version.

18 Thank you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document be

20 admitted into evidence?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

22 please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 313.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now see document

Page 2102

1 313. It is the transcribed recording of a meeting in 1993.

2 Will you please look at page 2 of this document, which is page 2

3 of the English version, too, dated on the 18th of October.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it a "P" document or "D" document? Is it

5 "D313" or is it "P313"?

6 MS VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] D313, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] But it also has a "P" number. But to

9 avoid confusion, we decided to do it in this way.

10 Q. Witness, will you please look. We've seen page 1.

11 Could the witness first be shown the first page of the document to

12 see for himself that it is the transcribed recording of a session held on

13 the 18th of October, 1993.

14 We have it now in English, but the Bosnian version, too, please.

15 Thank you very much.

16 Now, please look at page 2 of this document.

17 You can see Tape 8 through 6.

18 Now please look at page 3 of the document. And in Bosnian too.

19 Do you agree that we see here that the rest of the session is

20 inaudible?

21 A. Yes, that is what it says.

22 Q. So we've seen that on the previous tape, only a few sentences have

23 been described, whereas here we see that the rest of the session is

24 inaudible, so you cannot know what was discussed?

25 A. Of course not. There must have been a fault in the electricity

Page 2103

1 supply. The lines went down, probably.

2 Q. Very well. And the sessions continued, however, even if there was

3 no electricity; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Could this document be given an exhibit number, please.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: We are a bit puzzled, Counsel, about the probative

8 value of these documents. What is it, exactly, that you are trying to

9 show?

10 I thought, from the discussion that we had before the break, that

11 your point was to say that, yes, military matters were indeed discussed

12 during the Presidency meetings, but I'm not sure this document provides

13 much support to that assertion. But could you explain what it is you want

14 the Bench to extract from this document?

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what I would like the

16 Bench to conclude is that we do not have the complete set of minutes from

17 sessions and that we don't know what was discussed at the other remaining

18 sessions. To be more specific, whether the question of Mujahedin was

19 discussed or not.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I want to ask a question. Can I ask a question,

21 again for my own understanding of the proceedings, I would like to follow

22 what is happening in court.

23 If it is established finally that Mujahedin was discussed or not

24 discussed, where does it take us in the case? What is the point of

25 discussing Mujahedin in the Presidency? What is it intended to show in

Page 2104

1 this case? I didn't understand it when the Prosecution did it, I still

2 don't understand it. I would like to be enlightened.

3 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, if I may, I'm not sure it's

4 appropriate to talk about the particular evidence and what its relevance

5 is to the entire case in trial and also in front of a witness.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why is that not appropriate?

7 MS. SARTORIO: Well, because we're going to be discussing here

8 what parts -- what a part of the evidence, a part of the puzzle, suggests

9 in the overall picture of the case, in front of the witness, and at the

10 beginning of the case in front of Defence counsel. I'm not sure either

11 side is really prepared or wants to do that at this point in time for

12 particular pieces of evidence.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I've often heard this kind of excuse in this

14 Tribunal, and I've never understood what it means. You're coming again

15 with something that -- I don't understand why it cannot be explained in

16 the presence of a witness, the purpose of their evidence.

17 If the purpose of their evidence is to show either that -- I can't

18 even begin to use this example because I don't understand this point, but

19 I've never really understood why a reason for evidence cannot be given if

20 the witness is in court.

21 On the other hand, if you are not able to discuss this, then

22 you're running the risk of losing the Bench. I don't understand what we

23 are -- I have not understood the purpose for calling this witness so far,

24 and if you lose me, you've lost me.

25 So, I mean, I may or may never see the relevance of this evidence

Page 2105

1 unless it is explained to me at some stage, and I'm speaking here for

2 myself. I'm not speaking for the entire Chamber. I'm just saying I don't

3 understand what we are doing this afternoon. And you may decide not to

4 explain the relevance of this. Do understand that if you do that, you're

5 running the risk of losing the Bench or at least some of the Bench.

6 MS. SARTORIO: I'll explain briefly, Your Honour. But the --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not going to force you to explain. If you

8 don't want to explain things in front of the witness, I'm not forcing you

9 to. I'm just saying: Know the consequences.

10 MS. SARTORIO: Well, I have a gun to my head.

11 Well, Your Honour, in brief, the Prosecution's position is that in

12 times of martial law, according to the Constitution and according to what

13 was in practice, there was a presidency.

14 The Presidency consisted of ten members. It was multicultural

15 members, and the Presidency was in charge, and the supreme commander of

16 the Armed Forces, which means the Presidency should have made decisions on

17 command-and-control issues and other items that should have been discussed

18 regarding the operation of the army during this time period. These

19 matters were not discussed at the Presidency meetings, pursuant to the

20 Constitution. Rather, they were discussed in private meetings, of which

21 this witness and no one was allowed to be present, and decisions were

22 made.

23 But decisions were made, as the witness discussed. There were

24 general discussions about criminal groups in the Presidency sessions, but

25 nothing was ever resolved. But then somehow things got resolved. So they

Page 2106

1 got resolved as a result of other private meetings, not the Presidency

2 sessions at which the Constitution required that these issues be resolved.

3 That's the purpose of this evidence, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Actually, you've just given us a summary of the

5 evidence. Thank you so much for the summary of the evidence, and I hear

6 what you say is the purpose.


8 JUDGE MOLOTO: To the extent that you refer to the constitutional

9 obligations, and I think that could have been given in a very short,

10 cryptic sentence just to say, "We want to check whether the constitutional

11 obligations were carried out by the Presidency."

12 But be that as it may, I hear what you say.

13 Madam, I don't know whether Judge -- okay. May this document then

14 be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 314.


17 Madam Vidovic, excluding the time that I took talking, you've

18 actually gone through your 39 minutes that was taken by the Prosecution in

19 lead, but Judge Lattanzi has something to say.

20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, I had one thing. I was

21 waiting for the translation into French.

22 The translation into French is sometimes a bit lengthy, and is

23 finished after the English translation.

24 But I'm not really sure that it is -- the fact about the parties

25 telling about their case in front of the witness, I do reserve my position

Page 2107

1 when it comes to this, the parties giving their case in front of the

2 witness.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge.

4 Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understand that I

6 have used up my time, but in view of your explanation of the position of

7 the Prosecution, you will understand that I have a few more important

8 questions for this witness.

9 We had expected the examination to take a little longer, and some

10 things are very important for us that the witness has discussed. So would

11 you please indulge me for a few more minutes? Thank you.

12 If the witness could now be shown the session held on the 8th of

13 June, P1194. For the record, it is the 203rd session held on the 8th of

14 June.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In 1993, Your Honour.

17 Q. It is the session, Witness, which I don't know whether you saw

18 these minutes. By contents, it would appear that it was at this session

19 that Rasim Delic was appointed. Will you please first focus your

20 attention on page 5 of this document. 5, please. Will you please look at

21 the 3rd paragraph. Pejanovic is speaking. Can the English version be

22 rolled down, please.

23 Will you look at what Pejanovic says. He says that: This is a

24 complex question. He requests information about Trebevic, how many were

25 killed, who ordered the action. He was consulted about those proposals.

Page 2108

1 He does not think that the Staff should be consulted, but suggests

2 consulting Siber and Divjak.

3 Then look further down, line 6. It says he proposes that the

4 question of ranks be postponed, and the one-but-last line of the Bosnian

5 version, which is on the next page of the English version - could we see

6 the next page of the English version, please - he proposes that the

7 Presidency should take decisions on all personnel issues - that is at the

8 top of the page - that the Presidency should decide on all personal issues

9 in the corps.

10 Would you agree, when testifying a moment ago, you said that

11 military issues were not reviewed at sessions? Let us first clear up what

12 you imply when you say "military issues." Did I understand you correctly,

13 you meant "military operations"?

14 A. Yes, that's right, military operations, strategy, the units that

15 would be involved, and it was logical, in my view, that such things should

16 not be discussed at the Presidency for the simple reason that there were

17 many people present, and there would be many divergent views. Everyone

18 would have his view, and many of them were not qualified for military

19 issues.

20 And something else. In Bosnia we had three nations fighting one

21 another. Muslims, as a nation. There was harmonisation on a national

22 basis as applied to the other two nations. And it was logical for me that

23 in a war that they were waging a war against both the other two nations,

24 it would be normal for me that such matters be discussed in that way.

25 Q. But do you agree that strategic issues were issued such

Page 2109

1 appointments?

2 A. All the appointments in the army, and even in the police were made

3 at the Presidency, where the actual decision was made, but decisions

4 regarding corps commands, the appointments of high ranks, even in the

5 police and in the military and civilian police, all these appointments

6 were discussed at Presidency meetings. I said that earlier on.

7 Q. Thank you. Now will you please look at the last line of page 6 in

8 the Bosnian version, which is again page 6 of the English version. You

9 see it says the continuation will be at 1400 hours.

10 Could we roll down the text, please? That's right. "Resumption

11 at 1400 hours."

12 Your Honour, I need to see page 6 of the Bosnian version as well.

13 I'm not sure that that is the right page of the Bosnian version. It's the

14 next page. Here we are, yes.

15 You see it says: "Resumption at 1400 hours."

16 Now, will you move the page down for you to see it in the Bosnian

17 version. Now let us see the next page of the Bosnian version.

18 Testifying this morning, you said that you believed that General

19 Delic was appointed about 10.00 or 11.00 -- at about 10.00 or 11.00?

20 A. No, I didn't say that. I can tell you the proposal that Mr. Delic

21 be appointed instead of Sefer Halilovic was made at the first part of this

22 session between 10.00 and 11.00, and then there was a break because

23 somebody - I don't remember who - wanted to consult his deputies, Divjak

24 and Siber, whether they agreed with such a replacement, because

25 Sefer Halilovic said that his deputies supported him and that his

Page 2110

1 dismissal could cause unrest in the army.

2 I remember that session specifically because I was surprised.

3 Q. Thank you. Will you please now look at the very end of the

4 document, that a commission was set up for the handing over of duty

5 between Sefer Halilovic and -- the next page, please, the previous page,

6 the previous pages that we had on the screen, please. That's right.

7 Now can we have the appropriate page in English? We had it there

8 a moment ago.

9 Will you look, please? Do you agree, and it says, point 2:

10 "The situation in Gorazde ..."

11 And then it says: "Sefer Halilovic," and then it says:

12 "The handing over of duty between Sefer and Rasim Delic" -- I'm

13 sorry, below that: "The situation in Gorazde...," read the report of the

14 units in Srebrenica, 1st Corps, that Pejanovic should go, Sefer --

15 A. I can't see it, though.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 7 in English, Your Honours.

17 A. Sefer handed in his oral resignation, yes, the commission for the

18 handing over, Fikret Muslimovic, Jovan Divjak and Mirsad, I think,

19 Causevic.

20 Q. And so do you agree that it was after the break, which took place

21 at 2.00 p.m., that only then was the commission formed for the hand-over

22 of duty?

23 A. I thought that the decision came into effect the same day it was

24 made, but obviously it had to come into effect once the hand-over of duty

25 was completed, because this was an urgent thing. The commander-in-chief

Page 2111

1 is important, so this must have -- he must have been promoted to the

2 position of commander in the second part of the session.

3 Q. Do you agree that it says here that Jovan Divjak was a member of

4 that commission?

5 A. Obviously, yes.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can this document be

7 given an exhibit number.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 315.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Now I'm going to ask you a few things about those meetings that

14 the Prosecutor called "private meetings."

15 Do you agree that you did not attend these meetings?

16 A. Never.

17 Q. You don't know at all what was discussed there?

18 A. I absolutely do not know. Perhaps they just drank coffee. I have

19 no idea.

20 Q. Now, please, the Prosecutor gave you a series of names of members

21 of the Presidency, including Tatjana Ljujic, mostly non-Muslim names. Do

22 you agree that the Prosecutor did not ask you about Nijaz Durakovic?

23 A. Who also did not attend, that's true too.

24 Q. Do you agree that he is a Muslim, and you see he wasn't there with

25 them?

Page 2112

1 A. Yes, he was a Muslim, but he was political opposition, though.

2 Q. I accept that, but he's a Muslim?

3 A. No doubt, he's a Muslim.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we slow down, please.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Q. And now just one more thing. You saw General Delic many times at

7 these sessions, isn't that right, and generally speaking in the

8 Presidency? Do you agree that he also held meetings with Pejanovic,

9 Komsic, Kljuc, that he did not isolate himself from the other members of

10 the Presidency, that he didn't isolate himself from them?

11 A. I can also give my personal impression about Mr. Delic from that

12 period of time. I did not have any private contacts with him except

13 during breaks of the sessions. My impression about him was that this was

14 a courteous, decent man who was not a fanatic in any sense, and who was a

15 professional soldier, as I knew JNA officers to be like before. He

16 contacted everyone, and I think that he did different things for members

17 of the Presidency who were non-Muslims, if I can put it that way.

18 Q. In other words, he had meetings with Komsic, Pejanovic, and all

19 these other people, too?

20 A. Well, he would see them, that's for sure. What they discussed,

21 what the subject of their discussions was, I don't know, but that was my

22 impression of him.

23 Q. Right. You told us just now that your impression of General Delic

24 was that he was a professional. In the previous statement that you gave

25 to the Prosecutor, on several pages you described a terrible situation in

Page 2113

1 Sarajevo, a terrible situation, with the commanders of individual

2 brigades --

3 MS. SARTORIO: Objection, Your Honour.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 MS. SARTORIO: Objection. She's referring to the statement of the

6 witness. It certainly isn't in evidence. The witness is here viva voce.

7 And I think she should either put the questions to the witness, but not

8 refer to a previous statement that he gave and what he may or may not have

9 said in that statement.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the first time

12 that I cannot use a statement now that had been given? Of course, I have

13 that statement here, but I am trying -- well, I'm trying to save time.

14 On six pages, at least, the witness described the situation in

15 Sarajevo, and he even described his very own arrest. And even today at

16 one point --

17 MS. SARTORIO: Objection, Your Honour. Now she's telling you

18 what's in the statement, she's testifying. I think this is totally

19 inappropriate, what Defence counsel is doing at this point.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic, don't testify. Defend your

21 right to put the question to the witness, if that's what you want to do,

22 without quoting the statement.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honour, do I understand

24 that the Prosecutor's objection has been sustained, that I cannot rely on

25 the statement that he previously gave to the Prosecutor?

Page 2114

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, you are misunderstanding. I said, "Defend your

2 stand to use the statement to the witness, but do not quote the

3 statement."

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Witness, please, is it correct that General Delic, on the 8th of

6 June, when he was appointed --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Defend your stand. I have not ruled on the

8 objection, Madam. I must rule on the objection. Defend your stand, in

9 other words, but you don't do that by quoting the statement.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd rather withdraw the

11 question and move on to another question, because I have very little time

12 left.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: In that event, then the objection becomes

14 sustained.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness, please, you were in the Presidency, you were in Sarajevo.

17 It's correct, is it not, that General Delic found a terrible situation

18 there when he came to become commander?

19 A. His appointment coincides with resolving this situation. How big

20 his very own contribution is, I really don't know, but indeed the

21 situation was terrible in Sarajevo. Criminal groups that were armed, they

22 were rendering some kind of justice of their own, looting, mistreating

23 citizens, and so on and so forth. I think that this was sometime in

24 November when the situation was cleared up, and by then Delic had already

25 been well into his commanding post of the army.

Page 2115

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we see D210,

2 please. For the transcript, this is an excerpt from the book "Balkan

3 Front: A Military History of the Yugoslav Conflict, 1990-1995," issued by

4 the Central Intelligence Agency of the United States of America in October

5 of 2003.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

7 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I object to this document, unless the

8 Defence counsel can lay a foundation of some sort with this witness. I

9 mean, this isn't -- she just mentioned -- I believe that Defence counsel

10 just mentioned something about the Central Intelligence, the CIA. I don't

11 see the relevance of this document, and I wanted to object before she

12 poses a question to the witness and he answers, if he -- I'm not sure what

13 an excerpt from a book, something issued by the CIA of the US, has to do

14 with this particular witness and what he's testified to today about

15 Presidency sessions in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness also

19 testified about the difficult situation in Sarajevo, and precisely in

20 response to my questions he talked about the activities of General Delic

21 that are written about in these parts of the CIA report from October 2003.

22 It has to do with the last part of my questions.

23 I said "D310".

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, we have D210.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, now it's been changed.

Page 2116

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The script had said "210." Is it 310 you want,

2 ma'am?

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, 310. This is the right

4 document, the one that we see on our screens now.

5 And now could we look at page 2 of this document?

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait a minute. We've got to rule on the objection.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. We've got to rule on the objection. You

9 are still in the process of defending why you are bringing this book on

10 the screen. Are you done? Do you want me to make a ruling now?

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in addition to what

12 I've said, I have the right to put questions to the witness that is

13 important for my own case during the cross-examination as well. May I add

14 that, too.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 Yes, Madam.

17 MS. SARTORIO: I'll withdraw the objection, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. The objection is withdrawn.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness

20 please see page 2 of this document. In the Bosnian, too, please.

21 Q. Witness, please take a look at this document. It says the Bosnian

22 Army is cleaning house, and you talked about Trebevic in relation to Caco

23 and Celo; is that right?

24 A. Yes, no doubt about that.

25 Q. Could you please tell us about the last sentence:

Page 2117

1 "It is very important that the Trebevic action was the first and

2 most dramatic access taken by General Delic towards the

3 professionalisation of the Bosnian Army"?

4 A. Yes, that's what it says here, and that is the way one can take it

5 as the truth, yes.

6 Q. Do you agree that you know and that you were receiving reports in

7 the Presidency that the army had brought criminal charges against many

8 perpetrators?

9 A. Yes, yes, I remember that. I don't know exactly against who,

10 specifically, but I know that some of them were detained, and then they

11 were pardoned, because these were misled soldiers, if I can put it that

12 way, who could have been useful for the defence onwards as well.

13 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that many of these people were accused of

14 war crimes; do you remember?

15 A. I remember that some of them were accused. Who exactly, I don't

16 know, I can't remember any longer, but I can say that after that, after

17 this action, Trebevic-1, life in Sarajevo became normal for the non-Muslim

18 population; that is to say, freedom of movement, there was no more

19 mistreatment, and the things that Caco did arbitrarily, the arbitrary

20 arrests as well, and so on and so forth.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Your Honours, could this document please be given an exhibit

23 number, and that concludes my questions.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 Can we have an exhibit number to this document, please.

Page 2118

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 316.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 Any re-examination, Madam Sartorio.

4 MS. SARTORIO: No, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Questions from the Bench. Judge?

6 Thank you, sir. This brings us to the conclusion of your

7 testimony, and the Chamber would like to take the opportunity to thank you

8 for taking time off your busy schedule to come and testify. May you

9 travel safely back home.

10 Thank you very much. You are excused and you may now stand down.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2119

1 (redacted)

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of

4 September, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.