2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody this morning.
6 Mr. Registrar, can you call the case please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. Good morning, Your Honours. This is
8 case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 May we have the appearances this morning starting with the
12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
13 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the
14 Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Aditya Menon, assisted by our case manager
15 Alma Imamovic.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 For the Defence.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation] ... criminal
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I didn't hear any interpretation. On what
21 channel is the
22 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, the interpreters apologise.
23 Maybe Ms. Vidovic can repeat the appearance.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you please repeat the appearances,
25 Madam Vidovic.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
2 morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.
3 I am Vasvija Vidovic, with Nicholas David Robson, defending
4 General Delic, assisted by our legal assistants, Lejla Gluhic and Asja
5 Zujo, and we have with us Nina Kisic from the Criminal Defence Section of
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, madam.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 WITNESS: ALI AHMAD ALI HAMAD [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we proceed, Mr. Hamad, may I just remind
12 you that before you started your testimony yesterday you made a
13 declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the
14 truth. You are reminded that you are still bound by that declaration
15 today. Do you understand me? Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 Madam Vidovic, you may proceed.
19 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. I hope that you rested
21 well and that we can continue today.
22 A. Thank you. Good morning.
23 Q. Yesterday, we stopped at some questions that had to do with
24 objectives of al-Qaeda in
25 some questions to you about that.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, can the witness look
2 at D319.
3 Q. And, Witness, before you look at this document, for the
4 transcript I would like to say that it's an interview in the German daily
5 Spiegle, Spiegle Online. Witness, can you please look at the interview.
6 Do you recall giving this interview?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the Trial Chamber, I would like
9 to explain that the original of the interview is in the German language,
10 and the Defence has provided translations into English and Bosnian.
11 Q. Witness, I would like to pay attention to the Bosnian version.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did the Defence file the original in the German
13 language? Thank you very --
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
15 Q. Witness, I would like to ask you to look at the first page of the
16 Bosnian version, the question before last. And in the English version
17 it's at the end of the first page and the beginning of the second page.
18 Witness, the question before last in the Spiegle Online interview
19 you were asked about the al-Qaeda mission in the Bosnian war, and you
20 replied: "Al-Qaeda wasn't interested in helping the Bosnian Muslims.
21 They were interested in creating a base that would allow them to increase
22 their area of operations, much like the USA with their bases but across
23 the globe. Some leaders of the Western world noticed that but did not do
25 In relation to this, Witness, I want to ask you, did I understand
1 properly that you felt that al-Qaeda in Bosnia was not interested in
2 Muslims but in creating a base from which they could operate within
3 Europe; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. Witness, now I would like to discuss with you your testimony
where you describe your arrival in
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And before that, Your Honours, I
8 would just like to ask that this interview from Spiegle be given an
9 exhibit number.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interview from Spiegle is given -- is admitted
11 into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 326.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
15 Q. I'm going to go back to that part of your testimony where you
16 described your arrival in Bosnia and Herzegovina. You said that the
17 members of al-Qaeda gave you precise instructions in Bahrain how to come
18 and who to report to. Am I correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And the instructions you received from Abu Helad [phoen], who was
21 a member of al-Qaeda; is that correct?
22 A. That was the second set of instructions. First I received the
23 instructions from Prince Hamad and then from Abu Helad.
24 Q. Thank you for that additional explanation. Now I would like you
25 to look at Exhibit D320 -- or document 320. You have it in front of you.
1 These are excerpts from your book, marked about numbers, and I would
2 always like you to pay attention, please, Witness, to the high numbers,
3 and this one is the number 06050396 and 0397. This is the second page.
4 Please, can you look at this first page and look at line 7.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In the English, Your Honours, it's
6 also on the first page, beginning with line 6 and the words: "This is
the number of the Sudanese who lives in
8 Q. Witness, I believe that you've had the opportunity to read it.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. It states here: "He gave me that piece of paper and said, 'This
11 is the number of a Sudanese who lives in Split. When you arrive in
12 Split, call him if you need help and you will be met by our people in a
13 town called Travnik.'"
14 Now, I would like you to look at the second page and then I will
15 put my questions to you.
16 On the second page can you please look at the sentence - it's
17 around the middle of the page - which begins with the words: "They'll
18 take you to the Mujahedin."
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is page 2 in
20 English. "They will take you to the Mujahedin," that part.
21 Q. All right, Witness. You've found it. I'm going to read from it.
22 You wrote here: "These men were members of a Travnik Muslim unit called
23 Muslimanske Snage, Muslim Forces. They're good guys. They love Islam,
24 and they pray. When you arrive in the town where the headquarters of the
25 Muslim forces unit is, you will tell them not to send you to a village
1 called Mehurici where the Mujahedin training camp is located, but tell
2 them to send you immediately to a village called Karaula and specifically
3 to a village called Gradina. Our unit is billeted there."
4 It's correct, isn't it, that here you are describing your
5 conversation with Abu Helad. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you correctly describe what happened?
8 A. I described what I could remember, but most of my conversation
9 with him is stated here in this excerpt.
10 Q. All right. So you clearly wrote here that the instructions
11 regarding the location of your unit in
12 him, Abu Helad; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Witness, in your testimony yesterday and answering to the
15 Prosecutor's questions you said that Brigadier Asim explained where the
16 locations of your units were. You said that he told you that one was in
17 Mehurici and that the other was in Karaula.
18 I would like to ask you this: Is it possible that because of the
19 time that has passed since then you forgot the fact that Abu Helad
20 actually explained that to you?
21 A. I didn't forget that. I was told this in Bahrain, and I briefly
22 said that everything was explained to me in Bahrain, where to go, who to
23 report to, but I didn't speak in detail. My conversation with Abu Helad,
24 I said that Brigadier Asim clarified things and told me where the
25 Mujahedin camp was, where the front was, but this was his duty to explain
1 that to me again. And besides that, he wasn't aware that this was
2 already told to me in Bahrain.
3 Q. But do you agree that the instructions on the location of the
4 units you already received from Abu Helad in Bahrain? Is that correct?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. You also received instructions to report to the Muslim forces; is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And this is what happened?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And they accepted you, they welcomed you; is that correct?
12 A. [No interpretation].
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if this number [as
15 interpreted] can be given an exhibit.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
17 please be given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 327.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Testifying yesterday, Wahiuddin El Misri -- excuse me if I
22 mispronounce the words.
23 A. All right. All right. No problem.
24 Q. So Wahiuddin El Misri you described as the head of the Mujahedin
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In your book you describe them as well-known al-Qaeda figures; is
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes.
Q. Witness, would it be fair to
say that from your arrival in
7 your fate? Would that be a fair conclusion?
8 A. My fate?
9 Q. Yes, your fate.
10 A. I don't want to answer this because I'm not really quite clear
11 about what you are trying to ask me.
12 Q. I will clarify my question. Is it correct that al-Qaeda decided
13 about where you would go and decided that
you would go to
14 then decided which unit you would join in
15 until the point where you went to prison? Do you understand me now?
16 A. Yes, yes. That is clear now.
17 Q. Witness, can you now please look at document D322?
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, these are six
19 pages of the book.
20 Q. Witness, you recognise your handwriting; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I would like to ask you to look at the page marked a with the
23 number 06050454. Can you look at the part in the middle of the page
24 where your conversation with Wahiuddin El Misri is described.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is page 1 of the
1 translation into English, and that part is at the bottom of the page and
2 begins with the words -- and the words of that line begin: "Our unit in
3 Bijelo Bucje has been left without suitable commanders."
4 Q. Witness, now I'm going to read the relevant section to you that I
interested in, and it states: "Our unit in Bijelo Bucje has been left
6 without suitable commanders since Abu Talha El Andalusi was killed. I
7 recently sent Abu El Ma'ali to lead the unit temporarily until you
8 recover and get out of this clinic. Today you will be sent back there to
9 take over the leadership of the unit from him."
10 Would you agree that Wahiuddin El Misri actually appointed you as
11 the unit commander?
12 A. Yes, that is correct.
13 Q. Thank you. Now I would like you to look at page 0650574 of the
14 same document. Can you look at the part beginning from line 6. Look at
15 the part that begins from line 6 on that page. Can you find it?
16 A. Yes, I've found it. I have it.
17 Q. "Our unit in Bijelo Bucje is left without suitable --" I'm
18 sorry. We finished with that.
19 I would like you to look at -- able I got a little bit of
20 confusion. Can you please look at the page with the number 06050574.
21 And there is a part -- Abu El Haris from the beginning is mentioned. He
22 addressed Wahiuddin with the following words.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the English it's
24 on page 2.
25 Q. "What do you think about Abu El Hasan El Mekki. Is he capable?"
1 And Wahiuddin answered: "I think that he could be." And so on and so
2 forth. "And then after that Abu El Haris then said to me: 'Listen,
3 Abu Ubeyda [as interpreted], you'll go back to Bijelo Bucje and hand over
4 the post of unit commander to Abu El Hasan. We'll inform him of this by
5 Motorola. You'll be his deputy, and you'll be in charge of planning and
6 executing military operations, because Abu El Hasan doesn't have much
7 experience in this field. That's why you will always be by his side to
8 assist him.'"
9 And now I would like to ask you the following: It's correct, is
10 it not, that Wahiuddin and Dr. Haris also decided that you would no
11 longer be the commander but the deputy? Am I correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Will you now look at page 06050591.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it not so that they decided that he would be
15 deputy as a result of him protesting and refusing to take the position of
16 commander? There is that portion mentioned before the part that you
17 read. Is it not so?
18 What I'm trying to suggest is that --
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: What I'm trying to suggest is that he made a
21 contribution towards that decision, and in fact that decision was in line
22 with his desires. They wanted him to be commander, not deputy.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we first used the
24 previous page at which by decision of Wahiuddin the witness was appointed
25 commander. Then on the following page we see that the witness, by
1 Wahiuddin's decision, was moved from that position to the position of
2 deputy. And this is a relevant fact for the Defence, that is, who is the
3 decision-maker about this, that's all.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hear that, and that is why I'm saying that in
5 fact that decision was made as a result of considering his contribution.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I accept that.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have something to say, if I may.
8 In this document that the Defence quoted from, that was the day when I
9 was removed from duty. So as to avoid any confusion, allow me to
11 From the beginning of my tour of
12 Bijelo Bucje I was commander -- or, rather, deputy commander of the unit.
13 After the attack on Ilijas in 1992 in which Abu Talha was killed, the
14 commander of the unit, I became the commander by order of Wahiuddin.
15 As for the document in which I described my conversation with
16 Abu Haris, this happened almost five or six months later.
17 So they came to fetch me in Bijelo Bucje and they interviewed me.
18 They were not satisfied with my behaviour, and they came with intention
19 of removing me from duties. They offered me to become deputy commander,
20 which I refused. However, I was removed from duty. Of I was not
21 commander or deputy commander then.
22 This can be clearly seen if you were to continue to read on from
23 this text.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Witness, thank you for your additional explanations. Look now at
2 this section on the same page, 060505911, and the part under title
3 "Al-Qaeda decided -- took a decision about my arrest." Do you see that?
4 And I will quote now. I think you can find this easily in the
5 English version where towards the top of the page we see that: "Al-Qaeda
6 has made the decision to arrest me," as he says.
7 Allow me to quote this part of the text: "In the meantime, my
8 al-Qaeda cell made a decision in connection with my case, the decision
9 that was painful for me, because the al-Qaeda cell ordered the Mujahedin
10 administration to arrest me."
11 And in this connection, Witness, I wish to ask you the following:
12 My understanding is that in
13 cell. Am I right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you described that the decision was made by al-Qaeda with
16 regard to your case; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So the Mujahedin administration ordered your arrest; is that
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. They also decided that you should be arrested; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In this connection I wish you to look at page 06050599. There is
24 a big title, "
25 I ask you, Witness, to look at the text beneath this heading.
1 You mention Emad [as interpreted] El Misri here. You see that?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. You described that in this case he played the role of a military
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. On this basis my conclusion is that the Mujahedin had their own
military court in
8 A. Something that looked like a military court, but really one can't
9 call it a military court.
10 Q. Why?
11 A. Because this happened in the Mujahedin camp before domestic and
12 foreign Mujahedins. So this is my way of describing it. Any author
13 describes things in his way, and that is how I described it here, as a
14 military court.
15 Q. Let me rephrase that question. Be that as it may, they decided
16 about offences or lack of discipline which the Mujahedin; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now will you look at the last page of this document, number
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In English this is page -- the last
21 page of this document, and the last two sentences on this page. And due
22 to shortage of time I cannot discuss them with the witness, but they are
24 Q. Have you seen those two sentences? You said that through an
25 acquaintance from
1 today on, you will be under Abu Zubeir in his unit where you will have
2 absolutely no contact either with either Abu El Haris or with El Ketiba
4 So will you please explain for Their Honours the following: Am I
5 right if I believe that El Ketiba is the Arab word for the El Mujahedin
6 Detachment? Is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Abu al Zubeir is quite a different Mujahedin unit in relation
9 to El Ketiba or El Mujahedin. Am I right?
10 A. Yes. But the same organisation formed El Ketiba and al Zubeir.
11 Q. Thank you for the explanation, but my question is these are two
12 completely separate units. Isn't that so?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Finally, I am right in concluding on the basis of
15 this section of the book that an al-Qaeda decided about your involvement
16 in the al Zubeir Detachment. Am I right?
17 A. Yes.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can this document be
19 given an exhibit number and admitted into evidence.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]. May it please be
21 given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 328.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Ms. -- Madam Vidovic.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Witness, reading through one of the documents a moment ago I
noted that you describe the Mujahedin in
3 you described as the administration. Could you please explain to Their
Honours what the administration in
A. That is what many people in
6 Mujahedin command which has its members, and they decide about all the
needs of the Mujahedin in
8 Q. Thank you. I see.
A. That is what the people in
10 Q. Thank you very much. Will you now look at document D323, please.
11 Again these are pages from your book. Will you please look at
12 the page 06050462. I'm interested in the text beneath a heading,
13 "Establishment of a Mujahedin Administration." Will you please look at
14 it. Just this small section, and then I have a question for you.
15 Is it true that Wahiuddin El Misri organised in Mehurici what you
16 describe as a new Mujahedin administration which remained unchanged until
17 the end of the war?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Witness, could you please assist us. To the best of your
20 recollection, when did this occur? Do you remember?
21 A. I don't remember. Really, I don't.
22 Q. Was this when you were the commander in Bijelo Bucje? Was this
23 then or before that?
24 A. Either -- I was either commander or I was removed from the
25 command position.
1 Q. Was this before the events that you described yesterday? In
2 connection with Guca Gora or after that?
3 A. I'm afraid I can't remember just now. I need a little more time
4 to think about it.
5 Q. If you remember, please tell us. But will you now look at page
6 3, 06050539. And again I'm interested in a small excerpt from that page.
7 Actually, the last part of that page.
8 You describe a conversation here with Wahiuddin again. Please
9 look at that page. Am I right in saying that you're describing a
10 conversation with Wahiuddin?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. And towards of the end of the page you say Wahiuddin said to you,
13 "That is why I wrote a positive report about you of which our bosses will
14 be informed. This report will be sent somewhere where it will be kept
15 and protected."
16 In this connection, Witness, I should like to ask you it's true,
17 isn't it, that you, the Mujahedin who were members of al-Qaeda -- you
18 have already accepted that, haven't you, that you were observed by
19 Wahiuddin and that he wrote reports about you to his bosses? Am I right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So these are al-Qaeda bosses. Isn't that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So it would be fair to say that the Mujahedin administration
24 wrote reports about Mujahedin activities
25 bosses outside
1 A. Correct.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Could this
3 document be given an exhibit number, please?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
5 please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Exhibit number 329.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
9 Q. Witness, let me ask you something else now. Testifying
10 yesterday, you spoke about the fighting in which the Mujahedin took part
12 remember that, don't you?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Your testimony with respect to the existence of the army of
16 recounting the events of 1992 and the beginning of 1993, you said at the
17 time the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not exist -- or, rather, there
18 was no proper organisation in the army. Am I right in saying that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. On the other hand, you claimed that the Mujahedin agreed or
21 coordinated with army leaders regarding the battles at Jajce and Bijelo
22 Bucje. Am I right?
23 A. May I add something?
24 Q. Yes, do.
25 A. But I mentioned that this happened before the BH army was formed.
1 I called them army commanders before the formation and during the
2 formation of the army.
3 Q. What I would like you to clear up, how is it possible for army
4 commanders to exist before the army itself was formed? I don't
5 understand that.
A. That was my understanding
7 the TO at the time, which later was formed as the BH army. So I -- as
8 far as I personally am concerned, I referred to them as the BH army even
9 before the army was formed, because it was from these units that the BH
10 army was established.
11 Q. I see. And when did the BH army come into existence then, in
12 your opinion?
13 A. I noted that the BH army became better organised in 1993.
14 Q. Very well. Thank you. In your testimony you mentioned Brigadier
15 Asim. You mentioned him in connection with your meeting in September
16 1992 and then in connection with the events before mid-1993. Do you
17 remember that?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. If I say that in the BH army at the time there were no ranks,
20 would you accept that? You always use the term "brigadier" when
21 referring to Asim. However, if I put it to you that throughout the time
22 period which you testified about yesterday, that is until mid-1993, there
23 were no ranks in the army at all, would you accept that?
24 A. Can I explain that a little?
25 Q. Give me a yes or no answer?
1 A. But I don't agree fully with what you are saying, because it
2 needs to be explained.
3 Q. Please do.
4 A. I called Asim the brigadier because he himself called himself a
5 brigadier. I called Mehmed Alagic general because he called himself
6 general before he became a general. So that is how I used those terms.
7 Q. Thank you. That explains your understanding of the events.
8 Now let me also ask you about some other parts of your testimony.
9 In your evidence yesterday about Bijelo Bucje, you said that Abdel Aziz
10 told you that he had contact with Alija Izetbegovic and the military
11 leadership with whom he had agreed where the Mujahedin would be billeted.
12 Did I understand you correctly yesterday?
13 A. Yes, you did.
14 Q. First of all, my conclusion is that you knew Abdel Aziz well and
15 that you were on good terms with him. You spoke to him.
16 A. Yes.
Would you tell Their Honours when Abdel Aziz left
19 A. I don't remember when, but I know that he didn't stay for long.
20 I remember that -- I remember him while we were in Karaula. When I was
21 in Bijelo Bucje, he was no longer
there. He had left
22 means that he left
23 Q. Well, when then did he tell you that he had spoken to Izetbegovic
24 about the billeting of the unit in Bijelo Bucje?
That was when I had just arrived in
1 Karaula. That is before we were accommodated in Bijelo Bucje.
2 Q. Thank you. So you're claiming that you learnt about this from
3 Abdel Aziz; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In any event, you personally did not attend any conversation or
6 agreement between Adele Aziz and President Izetbegovic?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. What is more, you don't know at all whether what Abdel Aziz told
9 you was true.
10 A. I don't. I referred to what he said.
11 Q. And when we're talking about Abdel Aziz, it is true to say, isn't
12 it, that he didn't control many different groups of Mujahedin in Central
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. But, Witness, let me go back for a moment to Alija Izetbegovic
16 and Abdel Aziz. Do you agree that Alija Izetbegovic is a highly
17 interesting personality, a central figure
18 I right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And Abdel Aziz was a leading figure among the Mujahedin. One of
21 the leading figures.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. On condition that you really did learn from Abdel Aziz that he
24 had conversed with Alija Izetbegovic, because this is something you
25 described in your book, because it's interesting --
1 A. No. I described it because I believe that that is what happened.
2 I wasn't personally present, but I believe it did happen, because this
3 was confirmed -- this was confirmed by other Mujahedin, when talking to
local and foreign Mujahedin. And before
I came here in
5 pictures in Islamic journals of Izetbegovic, and the topic was the
6 discussion between Izetbegovic and Abdel Aziz.
7 Q. Witness, do you agree that you gave a series of interviews to
Glas Srpski or Glas Javnosti from
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. And do you agree that you said there that you heard of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina for the first time when
you arrived in
12 you knew about
Of course this was before we heard about the events in
14 was aware of this while I was in
15 started in
17 Q. But you now mention pictures of Alija Izetbegovic.
18 A. No. Of I just wanted to tell you why I believe that Abdel Aziz
19 did have a meeting with Izetbegovic, though I personally was not present.
20 Q. I see. So you believe that this happened, but you do not know
21 for sure.
I believe and I'm sure, because I saw it in a journal in
23 Unless this was a mounted photograph, but his picture was there.
24 Q. I would like to ask you more about the events that you described
25 yesterday, the events related to Ilijas and Visoko. However, before that
1 let me ask you the following: It is correct that the leadership of the
2 Mujahedin planned their own actions in which they took part; is that
4 A. I said that they had their own organisation and that they
5 requested that they should do their own reconnaissance.
6 Q. Thank you. Thank you. If you could possibly answer my questions
7 I would appreciate that.
8 A. But still some of your questions require some elaboration. I
9 cannot answer all your questions with yes or no without any further
10 comment that I consider necessary.
11 Q. All right. So you have explained it yesterday and also today.
12 You said that they planned those actions. I'm now talking only about the
13 planning. I'm not talking about any cooperation. I'm simply talking
14 about planning.
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. Now I would like to refer to your statement given to the
17 investigators. Yesterday you confirmed that you gave that statement in
18 August 2006. Do you remember that?
19 A. Yes, I remember.
20 Q. I would like you to take a look at D328.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to use D328
22 only to refresh the memory of the witness. It's page 71 of the
23 transcript. Your Honours, in English it is the end of page 71 where it
24 mentions the principal person, and then it goes on to the next page.
25 Q. And to you, Witness, I'm going to quote the following: You said,
1 "The principal person was a Wahiuddin El Misri. He was the military
2 expert who had planned all attacks that were performed by the Mujahedin.
3 He was one of the most important persons of al-Qaeda, and he was very
operative while he was in
5 also a very important man. His name is Ebu El Mu'utaz El Misri. He was
one of the important persons among the Mujahedin forces in
the war. He is a member of
al-Qaeda. I know him from
8 were there together."
9 So, Witness, this is what I'm talking about. Is this correct
10 what you have written in this part of your book?
11 A. Yes, it is correct.
12 Q. In other words, the boss of the Mujahedin would evaluate the
13 circumstances related to actions and then himself made the decision about
14 the participation of Mujahedins in these actions.
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. He would accept or not accept that they were participate in
17 battles; is that correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Yesterday you were telling us about some agreements with, as you
20 put it, army of
21 participation in battles. Do you remember that?
22 A. I remember it.
23 Q. Witness, in actual fact during all the time that you spent on the
24 position of the commander of the unit in Bijelo Bucje, you never received
25 a single order from army of
1 talking about orders now. You personally never received an order from BH
3 A. Not from them. There was only cooperation. There were no
5 Q. Thank you. Specifically, you never received any written order?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to show you again a document that
8 the Prosecutor showed you yesterday.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you want to do with this one? Thank you
10 very [Microphone not activated].
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, of course.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Document D328 is admitted into evidence. May it
13 please be given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 330.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
18 Q. I would like the witness to take a look at PT1024, and that's
19 P121. Of it has already and admitted as P121. Here it has the number
21 Witness, you read this document yesterday, and I would like you
22 to take a look at a small passage today. I'm interested in the second
23 page of the document. The number is 10832730. Can you take a look at
24 the passage which finishes with "El Hamdulila." After of that there are
25 two more paragraphs some place above the middle of the page beginning
1 with the words "Some of the Mujahedins."
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's on second page in
3 English. Second page in English. I think this is okay. Beginning with
4 "Some Mujahids."
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't found it. Just a moment.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
7 Q. It begins with "Some Mujahids." Have you seen that?
8 A. Yes, I have it now.
9 Q. I'll quote it. It says: "Some Mujahids, including Arabs,
10 without my order moved towards elevation 744 on the right-hand side.
11 Then they came down to the village and started torching. I caught up
12 with two Mujahids and informed Emir Heldic [phoen] that he and the
13 Mujahids should withdraw. However, the Arabs went even further to the
15 Witness, do you agree that the author of this part of the report
16 says that the Arabs went without his order towards elevation 744?
17 A. I don't agree.
18 Q. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Now I'm talking about the report.
19 I'm talking about the report, and then after that I'm going to ask you
20 about your understanding of the situation. So my question is: Do you
21 agree that the author of this report describes the situation in those
23 A. Yes, I agree with that.
24 Q. So he says that they went there without his control. He ordered
25 the withdrawal, and they did something opposite. So now in relation to
1 this I want to ask you the following: You maybe don't know all the
2 details about this action. Am I correct about that?
3 A. There are details that I'm not aware of, that is correct.
4 Q. Thank you. Yesterday in your testimony you mentioned Ramo
5 Durmis; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you agree that he couldn't have ordered Mujahedins while
8 taking part in this action? I'm talking about him.
9 A. I agree with that, because I was there and I was commanding. It
10 means that he couldn't command Arabs. I don't agree with this part of
11 his statement where he says that the Arabs were torching the village. It
12 was done by the locals.
13 Q. Okay. All right. But I'm interested in this part. Thank you
14 for your explanation, but this is what I'm interested in: "Ramo Durmis
15 could not command them." Is that correct? I'm talking here about the
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now I would like to
20 move on to another topic.
21 Q. I would like to ask you now about Mehmed Alagic, or
22 General Alagic. Yesterday in your testimony you referred to contacts
23 with the army commanders, and you mostly spoke about Mehmed Alagic. You
24 said that he was a general and the commander of the 7th Corps; is that
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. When talking about Mehmed Alagic, you established a connection
3 between the agreement -- between him and the agreement between the army
5 Did I understand you correctly?
6 A. Yes, you did.
7 Q. Do you agree that Jajce fell towards the end of 1992? Do you
8 remember that?
9 A. I remember that.
10 Q. You also established a connection between him and the agreements
11 related to the attack on Ilijas. Did I understand that correctly?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That is also the end of 1992.
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. You said that he introduced himself as General Alagic.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Witness, if I now put forward the claim that Mehmed Alagic, until
18 the middle of January 1993, until the middle of January 1993, he was not
19 even in
21 A. It would not. There is a simple reason for that. Can I explain
23 Q. Yes, you may.
24 A. I'm still trying to tell you that it is very difficult for me to
25 be specific about dates and periods of events, so it is possible that
1 maybe sometimes I jump two or three months forward or backward, and I
2 think I have made it very clear in my written statement.
3 Q. Do you agree that you established connection between him and a
4 very specific event, the fall of Jajce and Ilijas? So you connect him
5 with some events.
6 A. Yes, that is correct.
7 Q. So I have understood you correctly. Witness, I would now like to
8 tell you that you, even when you were commander, that is in the first
9 half of 1993, didn't really have the understanding about which corps of
10 the BH army was covering
11 A. I was told that the general of the 7th Corps was Mehmed Alagic.
12 That's what I heard from him and from Brigadier Asim.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like the
14 witness to take a look at the document. And also, Your Honour, I should
15 tell you that you're supposed to take the second binder that we have
16 given -- no, you're actually about to get it. I'm sorry. We were forced
17 to reorganise our cross-examination yesterday.
18 Also a copy for the Prosecutor.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second, Madam Vidovic.
20 Mr. Mundis.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution simply
22 wants to note for the record that this is the second time we've received
23 with a witness significant additional documents on the second day of the
24 cross-examination. A similar -- similar situation arose with respect to
25 Witness PW-3, and pursuant to the guidelines it's our understanding that
1 the Defence exhibits should be provided at the conclusion of the direct
2 examination, whereas one or two additional documents present us with no
3 problem. I just simply want to put on the record at this point that this
4 is the second time -- second witness where we've received significant
5 additional documents on the second day of the cross-examination.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any comment, Madam Vidovic?
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Actually, the
8 documents we received from the Prosecutor while preparing the testimony
9 of this witness were substantially different from his testimony
10 yesterday. We prepared our cross-examination based on the statements we
11 received. Of the Prosecution changed his line of examination, and I
12 really have to say that I'm not a magician. I simply couldn't possibly
13 change and adapt my documents so quickly. We barely managed, Your
14 Honours, to reorganise all this now. And the reason for that is the fact
15 that the Prosecutor in his examination covered also other areas from the
16 indictment. It simply means that I also had to refer to part of the
17 testimony yesterday, and it caused me to change the line of my
19 Anyway, Your Honour, you have to bear in mind that I really try
20 to give the documents related to cross-examination in time, and I believe
21 that the Prosecutor is going to find himself in the same situation when
22 he will be the one to cross-examine.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, at this point I'm certainly not
25 objecting to the Defence proceeding. I simply wanted to put that on the
1 record so that if we continue to have this situation then perhaps we can
2 take additional further steps. But I -- but I do feel I must respond to
3 the comments concerning the direct examination. I believe that if the
4 Trial Chamber were to take a look at the 65 ter summary of the expected
5 testimony of this witness, there are not significant or substantial
6 deviations from the 65 ter statement or material 65 ter summary and the
7 direct examination. But I don't want to take up any further time on this
8 matter and suggest we proceed.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then the Chamber will not
10 bother to look into the 65 ter list. We've understood that the matter is
11 placed on the record.
12 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Witness, take a look at D332. For the record, it's an order
15 dated 26th of February, 1994, which appoints Mehmed Alagic, son of Redzo.
16 Witness, can you take a look at the second part of the document. Do you
17 agree that the document is dated
18 at the second part of the document. "To the 7th Corps, Brigadier Mehmed
19 Alagic, son of Redzo, to the post of corps commander. Until now in the
20 post of the 3rd Corps commander."
21 A. I see that.
22 Q. Do you agree that this document says that Alagic not even in
23 February 1994 was a general but only a brigadier? Do you see that in the
25 A. I can see it.
1 Q. Also, he wasn't the commander of the 7th Corps at the time. Do
2 you agree were that? You agree that that's what the document says?
3 A. I'm not changing my testimony. It's the same, although I see the
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we give the
7 exhibit number.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
9 please be given an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Exhibit 331.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
13 Q. In your testimony yesterday you said that the Mujahedins would
14 observe the orders of Alagic, and that included yourself.
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. And as an example, you said that Alagic told you not to blow up
17 the church in Guca Gora.
18 A. Not quite. It was the chief of Mujahedins who accepted this
20 Q. Thank you about -- through for this explanation.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe it would be
22 better if we had a break now, because I'm probably going to spend more
23 time with the witness on the next document. One or two minutes are not
24 going to be enough.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will come back at quarter past 11.00. Court
2 --- Recess taken at
3 --- On resuming at
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Witness, we broke off when we were talking about General Alagic.
7 Would you agree that in your book you described one -- the one and only
8 time that you met him?
9 A. I don't recall specifically, because it's a book numbering 1.000
11 Q. All right. Do you remember describing a meeting like that that
12 you talked about yesterday?
13 A. Yes, I did describe a meeting with him.
14 Q. Thank you. Witness, I have been asked by the Trial Chamber and
15 the interpreters that we make a pause between my question and your answer
16 because we're speaking the same language. Do you understand me?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. When I finished my question, please would you just pause before
19 you begin answering?
20 A. Yes, yes. All right.
21 Q. Thank you. Now I would like you to look at document D333. This
22 is again an excerpt from your book about the meeting with Alagic, and I
23 would like to show them to you. First, Witness, I would like you to look
24 at page 06050552. Actually, can you look at the last sentence at the
25 bottom of the page.
1 Would you agree that here you describe your arrival at Guca Gora?
2 Do you agree?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Thank you. I would also like to refresh your memory. If you can
5 look at the following page.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I can assist. In
7 the English it's on the first page. The relevant text begins with the
8 words "When I arrived in Guca Gora." This is some 10 lines from the top
9 of the page.
10 Q. Witness, I would like to quote this part of the document. "I
11 thought that your commander Wahiuddin ..." can you find that?
12 A. I've found it.
13 Q. All right. "Where is he? I'd like to have a word with him."
14 So here you are describing the conversation between
15 General Alagic, as you said, and Ebu El Sadik. Is this correct? Do you
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. You said that Alagic said, "'Where is he? I'd like to have a
19 word with him.' Ebu El Sadik told him rudely, 'I told you I was in
20 command here. You talk to me if you have something to say.' The General
21 said, 'I've learned about your intentions. You're under my command, and
22 you don't have my permission to destroy the church. The planting of
23 explosives must stop immediately. Our unit will be sent to protect the
24 church.' Ebu El Sadik laughed and then told him with an indescribable
25 lack of courtesy --"
1 A. "Lack of courtesy."
2 Q. "'We'll stop it, boss, but first of all you have to suck my D.'
3 Then he became serious and continued. 'Who do you think you are to give
4 us orders? We'll do what Allah Jalishanu [phoen] ordered -- ordered us
5 to do. We don't take any orders from anyone but him. We don't be afraid
6 of anyone, not even you. Leave us at once.'"
7 And then a little later you say: "'And do you know who you're
8 talking to? You're wrong if you think we're under your command. We and
9 not you and your army liberated this village, so it will be the way we
10 want and not the way you do.' The General said in a sharp, threatening
11 voice, 'If by any chance you activate the explosive and destroy the
12 church, I will strike at you with my entire corps and kill you all.'
13 Ebu El Sadik gave a loud laugh and said, nodding his head as if his neck
14 hurt, 'Just you try and you'll see how you will drown in your own blood.'
15 Then he stepped up to him and pushed him with his hands, saying, 'Now get
16 the hell out of here as far as you can -- as far as you can before I
17 ripped your -- rip your head off. You've already made my blood pressure
19 Witness, did you faithfully describe this incident with Alagic?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Actually, Witness, on that occasion the Mujahedin did not heed
22 General Alagic. What is more, they threatened to kill him; is that
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. They even physically assaulted him; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. On that occasion they actually listened to Wahiuddin, and I'm
3 going to put it to you why if you accept that. Now I would just like you
4 to look at the same page. It's towards the bottom of the page. You are
5 explaining the conversation with Wahiuddin, who said -- or who explained:
6 "I would like to knock down this church. I would also like to raze this
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Indiscernible].
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. This is on page
10 2, or on the second page. It's line 11, Your Honours, beginning with the
11 words "I would also like to raise this church."
12 Q. He, Wahiuddin, said: "I would also like to raise this church to
13 the ground, but we don't do it so as to avoid confusion, possibly even a
14 conflict between us and the Bosniaks. Let them come and take control of
15 this damn church. We don't need it."
16 And now, Witness, just to ask you this, did you faithfully
17 describe this part of the conversation as well?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Actually, Witness, your Mujahedin chief, Wahiuddin, estimated
20 that at that point it was not in his interest to have a conflict with the
21 Bosniaks and that was why he ordered you not to destroy the church. Am I
23 A. Yes, you are.
24 Q. So you actually listened to him and not to Alagic; is that
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document
4 please be given an exhibit number.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
6 please be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 332.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to draw
10 the witness's attention again to the interview that we looked at in Der
11 Spiegel. This was D319 -- or, rather, Exhibit 326. Your Honours, it's
12 in the first binder that I provided yesterday.
13 Q. Witness, I would just like to draw your attention to one sentence
14 in this interview, which is just beneath the lines "Lights with a
15 chain-saw." You said: "'No general could command us,' former al-Qaeda
16 activist Ali Hamad said about his time as the commander of the Mujahedin
17 unit in town."
18 I would just like to ask you, is it correct that you stated this
19 to Der Spiegel?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. Thank you very much. Now I would like to put some more questions
22 to you, a few questions about the 7th Muslim Brigade that you testified
23 about yesterday to make things quite clear. You said that you at no
24 point in time were a member of the 7th Muslim Brigade; is that correct?
25 You yourself.
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. You also said that you didn't know its structure. You were not
3 familiar with its structure.
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. Witness, I would like to ask you something. Would you agree that
6 Bosniaks, local fighters that you met there, were not very familiar with
7 military skills at the time that you testified about? This was 1992 and
8 the first half of 1993. That they were not as skilled as you, the
9 foreign Mujahedin. Would you agree with that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Local Muslims never trained foreign fighters. Would you agree?
12 A. I don't know about that.
13 Q. In other words, you didn't know of any example of local Muslims
14 training the Mujahedin in military skills or combat skills when they came
16 A. No, I didn't know about that.
17 Q. Now, can we look at D334, Witness, please. Witness, the
18 Prosecutor showed you two documents yesterday which were admitted which
19 refer to the guerrilla. I would like us to look at the documents. The
20 document is D334, an order of the 7th Muslim Brigade of the 18th of
21 February, 1993, and it refers to the training of the guerrilla group
23 Witness, can you please look at the order which states in
24 paragraph 1: "Train the guerrilla group Mountain Forest according to the
25 existing plan and schedule."
1 Witness, you agreed that Bosnian did not train the Mujahedin; is
2 that correct?
3 A. I said that I didn't know cases like that.
4 Q. All right. Very well. You stayed in Bosnia, especially in that
5 initial period. Would you agree that the Bosnians had very strange names
6 for their units, the Swans, the Wolves, ducks, and geese, and so on and
7 so forth?
8 A. Yes, I agree.
9 Q. Do you agree that it's not unusual that they would name a part of
10 their unit mountain or forest? Would you consider that unusual for a
11 guerrilla group to do that?
12 A. Yes, you are correct?
13 Q. All right. So you cannot rule out the possibility that what they
14 term here as a guerrilla group Mountain Forest is just a normal part of
15 their unit?
16 A. I am not really familiar with that, but I did say that such a
17 name did exist.
18 Q. All right. That's a fair answer. Thank you very much.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be
20 given an exhibit number?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just -- let me just get a slight explanation. I
22 keep hearing from the interpretation the word "forest," not "guerrilla
24 Could I be corrected to it, please?
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps the document
1 can be placed on the ELMO. Then in line one of the order it says:
2 "Train the guerrilla group," and then in quotes: "'Planina-Suma,'
3 according to the existing plan and programme."
4 In the English text it also says: "Train the 'Planina-Suma',"
5 those are Bosnian words, "guerrilla group." The first line in the
6 English version, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The document is admitted
8 into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 333.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
12 Q. Witness, I would like to draw your attention again to a part of
13 your testimony from yesterday in response to the Prosecutor's questions
14 about the 7th Muslim Brigade and speaking about -- and you also talked
15 about this in your statement of
16 used the following words, I'm going to read them back to you, you said:
17 "Guerrilla was part of the 7th Muslim Brigade." What did you mean by
19 A. I meant the Turkish guerrilla, and that they were part of the 7th
21 Q. Just to clarify what the words "Usus davu [phoen]," "part of,"
22 what do they mean?
23 A. That they were part of the same brigade. They were included in
24 the brigade.
25 Q. Thank you very much.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if the witness can
2 now look at document D336, for the transcript. It's a part of the
3 statement to the Prosecutor.
4 Q. I would just like to refresh your recollection, Witness, about
5 the statement you provided to the Prosecutor in August 2006.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to look at
7 page 82 of the transcript. The accused has it, and I think that you also
8 have it. Your Honours, the last two lines are relevant, and then that
9 goes on to the following page.
10 Q. Witness, do you see that in the transcript? Witness, in the
11 Bosnian it's on the second page, the part that I'm interested in. I'm
12 going to quote it to you. You said: "Yes, but the 7th Muslim Brigade
13 was composed of local combat amounts, but it had very close cooperation
14 with foreign Mujahedin."
15 So for a certain period of time Mujahedin occupied several large
16 premises which were part of the premises of the 7th Muslim Brigade. And
17 the investigator put a question to you: "But they were not under their
18 command." And then you replied: "No. It was only cooperation."
19 Please, so in your statement to the investigators do you agree
20 that you said that the Mujahedin were not under the command of the 7th
21 Muslim? Is this correct.
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. That is correct. And this part of the statement that I read back
24 to you, is that correct, the statement that you provided to the
1 A. Yes, that is correct. But I was thinking of the Mujahedin who
2 were under the command of the Muslim forces in Travnik.
3 Q. So you were not thinking of the 7th Muslim Brigade, but you were
4 thinking of the Muslim forces in Travnik.
5 A. No. What I want to say, when I deny that the Mujahedin were
6 under the command of the Muslim 7 forces, I was not thinking of the
7 guerrilla, but I was thinking of the Mujahedin forces that were in
8 Travnik within the Muslim forces.
9 Q. So how do you explain this part of the testimony or the
10 statement? You said: "The 7th Muslim was composed of local combatants."
11 Please, how would the Turkish guerrilla then be part of the local
13 A. I confirmed that yesterday, because -- for two reasons. The
14 first one was that because during my visit to the facilities where the
15 7th Muslim was located, I met some of those Turks who were in the
16 guerrilla, and then the attack on Ilijas in 1992. During that attack I
17 saw a group of Turks, Turkish guerrillas, who participated in the war
18 under the command of the 7th Muslim. So I confirm that on the basis of
19 that, that they were part of the 7th Muslim.
20 Q. All right, Witness. Just to clarify the following: You, based
21 on the fact that you saw some people from the Turkish guerrilla in the --
22 at the premises of the 7th Muslim, you base the conclusion that they were
23 part of that force. Did I understand you correctly?
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. In other words, you have no other proof for that? And I will go
1 back to that.
2 A. I don't have other proof other than what I mentioned.
3 Q. All right. And before we talked about the participation, about
4 the fighting in Visegrad, the Visegrad-Ilijas elevation, that's what you
5 called it, would you agree that I showed you an excerpt showing that the
6 Arabs left with -- without the command of Ramo Durmis, and you confirmed
7 that the Arabs at the time had their own command. They were not
8 reporting to Ramo Durmis, but they listened to their own Mujahedin
10 A. Yes, that is correct.
11 Q. Very well, then. How were they under the command of the
12 7th Brigade? The fact that they fought together, do you consider that to
13 mean that they were under their command?
14 A. I meet fighters from the 7th Muslim Brigade. They were local
15 people, and among them there were Turks. So the 27 of us foreign
16 Mujahedin that were there and the Turkish guerrillas, there was a
17 misunderstanding and we exchanged fire. We shot at them, and they fire
18 at us. And then the local people from the 7th Brigade said that they
19 were their people and that they had come to the 7th Brigade. So on that
20 basis you come to the conclusion that the 7th was the command of these
22 Q. Very well. Witness, do you agree that you, yesterday during your
23 testimony, described an incident between the 7th Muslim Brigade and the
24 Mujahedin when members of the 7th Muslim Brigade killed two Mujahedin?
25 Do you remember that?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And in this connection I should
3 like the witness to have a look at D338, please.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... D338. What shall
5 we do with D336?
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. May the
7 document be given an exhibit number, please.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: D336 is admitted into evidence. May it please be
9 given an exhibit number?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 334.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
13 Q. Witness, you described for us yesterday a serious
14 misunderstanding incident between the 7th Muslim Brigade and the
15 Mujahedin, and I would like you to look at this document D338, and I draw
16 your attention to page 2, paragraph 13. It's the same in English. At
17 paragraph 13, Witness.
18 In this paragraph 13 of this document of the 7th Muslim Brigade I
19 will quote: "Urgently sort out matters with all armed formations that
20 have not been brought under the command of the BH army. As regards HVO
21 units, they are a component of the armed forces and full cooperation must
22 be established with them. Instructions will follow on how to carry out
23 further organisation."
24 Witness, please, on the basis of this document we see that the
25 commander of the 7th Muslim Brigade is ordering that matters be sorted
1 out with armed formations that are not under the command of the army of
3 the document says.
4 Would you allow for the possibility that here he is referring to
5 the Mujahedin, that is sorting out matters with the Mujahedin?
6 A. If you mean the Mujahedin coming from Travnik, I exclude that
7 possibility because the 7th Muslim had no right to make any decisions
8 about them.
9 Q. Witness, I'm not talking about the Mujahedin from Travnik. I'm
10 talking about the Mujahedin in general, about formations that are not
11 under the control of the army and are not the HVO. Would you allow for
12 that possibility? You have described a serious conflict when there was
13 shooting between the 7th Muslim and the Mujahedin regarding the killing
14 of Efendija Karalic. Do you remember that?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Do you then allow for the possibility?
17 A. I don't know. That is a fair reply.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can this document be
19 given an Exhibit number, please?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
21 please be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 335.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
1 Q. You have confirmed for us that the Mujahedin wanted to kill
2 Efendija Mahmut Karalic; is that right?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Do you remember that in your book you described that they wanted
5 to kill Ademovic as well? Is that right too?
6 A. Yes, it's right.
7 Q. Thank you. Let me now move on to another segment having -- which
8 you also testified about yesterday. In your statement you said that you
9 received food, uniforms, and weapons from the Muslim forces; is that
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. Witness, I wish to remind you and to refresh your memory in
13 connection with a part of the statement that you gave to the Prosecutor.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness have a look at
15 D344, 344. Is it, Your Honour, the last sentence on page 55, and it goes
16 on on page 56. That is the relevant portion.
17 Q. You have in the translation the part where the investigator is
18 asking you whether you receive any kind of salary, and the investigator
19 asked you whether you received any financial support.
20 A. No. In fact, we gave then money, because in those days they had
21 no money, so they couldn't even pay their own soldiers let alone pay us.
22 Q. Witness, is that a true description with respect to the local
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In connection with the question of the arming of the Mujahedin
1 and logistics, I wish to show you a few more documents.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] But before that, Your Honour, may
3 this document be given an exhibit number.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
5 please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 336.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness now
9 have a look at D345. These are again excerpts from his book.
10 Q. Witness, will you look through at page 06050726. Do you agree
11 that in a part of your book you describe the work of Islamic humanitarian
12 organisations in
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Look at this page now, please. It is entitled "Kuwaiti
15 Humanitarian Organisation." Can you see that? And will you please read
16 through the text under this heading. And in this connection I have the
17 following question for you: Do you agree that you said that while you
18 were a commander of the Mujahedin unit in Bijelo Bucje you received funds
19 for the needs of the unit from a Kuwaiti humanitarian organisation? Do
20 you agree?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, will you please look at the page 06050731. Can you look at
23 that page, please? To save time, please focus on eight or nine lines
24 from the top when you say: "When I was a commander of a unit in Bijelo
25 Bucje." This is page 3 of the English version, beginning: "When I was
1 commander of the unit in Bijelo Bucje near Travnik."
2 I believe, Witness, that by now you have read this excerpt, and I
3 would like to ask you the following: You described here that while you
4 were the commander you also received humanitarian aid from several other
5 Islamic organisations. And not only from the Kuwaiti, among them the
6 Third World Organisation.
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. Very well. Please look now at page 06050737. And I draw your
9 attention, Witness, to the bottom part of this page.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is page 4 in the
11 English version, beginning about 10 or 12 lines from the top, "Under very
12 strange circumstances, general director Naser."
13 Q. Witness, for you I have a question. Do you agree that you're
14 describing here the activities it of the Balkan Islamic centre in Zenica?
15 Am I right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And in this excerpt you say that you were given considerable
18 assistance with money and food for members of the El Mujahedin Detachment
19 and El Zuhayr's unit.
20 A. I'm sorry, there's a mistake here. We're talking about the High
21 Saudi Committee.
22 Q. Very well. Then I'm wrong. Is it true that what I'm asking you,
23 that is that the Saudi committee assisted the El Mujahedin Detachment as
24 well as members of Zubeir's unit? But your conclusion was that
25 Zubeir's unit received more assistance. Am I right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I wish to ask you the following: In addition to the El Mujahedin
3 unit, the Mujahedin administration also formed a unit called
4 Abu Zubeir?
5 A. I didn't say that the Mujahedin Detachment formed it, but the
main al-Qaeda cell outside
7 Q. I understand. So the main allocate a cell outside Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina formed the El Mujahedin Detachment. And who formed the
9 Abu Zubeir unit?
10 A. Also an al-Qaeda cell.
11 Q. Thank you for this explanation.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can this document be
13 admitted into evidence and given a number.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
15 please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 337.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness now
19 look at document D346 regarding this same topic.
20 Q. Witness, I wish to draw your attention to this first paragraph
21 when you see the name Talal Filal. This is also at the top of the page
22 in the English version.
23 Witness, will you just read that paragraph.
24 A. I have read it.
25 Q. My question is: Did you know Talal Filal, son of Hasan?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Let me quote from this document. "When the three of them set up
3 the Islamic Centre Balkan in Zenica, the aim of which was to spread the
4 faith --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have read the first paragraph. Now, where are
6 you reading now?
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. The
8 eighth line of the English version. It begins with the words "The three
9 of them."
10 Q. So it says here that: "The Balkan Islamic Centre in Zenica,
11 whose aim was to spread Islam and provide welfare and humanitarian help
12 to the needy. These two organisations and some other humanitarian
13 organisations from Arab countries (Elaharamine) [phoen], were used as
14 logistic support for the El Mujahedin Detachment."
15 I want to ask you whether you knew anything about the Balkan
16 Islamic Centre.
17 A. I did know a little about it, and I described this in my book.
18 Q. Do you agree that this document contains correct information
19 regarding assistance given to the detachment? Do you agree?
20 A. No, I don't, because I have a different opinion of that centre
21 and the people who headed that centre.
22 Q. Very well. Can you tell us what your opinion is?
23 A. I know that foreign Mujahedin headed that centre. In public they
24 claimed it was intended to spread Islam, but in fact it was al-Qaeda
25 activities in
1 spread the belief among domestic Mujahedin similarly to the beliefs that
2 foreign Mujahedins had.
3 Q. In what way would they win them over, by giving them material
5 A. First of all, quite a number of young people came to study real
6 Islam, and they taught them incorrectly, telling them that real Islam is
7 violence over all those who do not belong to that faith, but they also
8 gave them financial aid.
9 Q. So this Islamic centre assisted financially whom?
10 A. People who came regularly to that centre.
11 Q. Where?
12 A. To the premises of the Balkan Islamic Centre in Zenica.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can this document be
14 given an exhibit number, please.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
16 please be given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 338.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In connection with this same issue,
20 Your Honour, could the witness look at document D347. It is an excerpt
21 from an official record on intercepted conversations, dated the 23rd of
22 October, 1995.
23 Q. Could you, Witness, please, look at page 4 of this document.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is page 5 of the
25 English version.
1 Q. And, Witness, will you look at paragraphs from 16 to 20. Page 5
2 of the English version, paragraphs from 16 through 20.
3 Will you please look at the names that are mentioned here. Do
4 you agree with me that this refers to a conversation between Abu Talib
5 and Abu Ma'ali? You're familiar with the name Abu Ma'ali. Who was he?
6 A. He was they were the head of a Mujahedin Detachment.
7 Q. Did you know Abu Talib perhaps?
8 A. No, I didn't.
9 Q. Do you agree that it says here that Alib [phoen] asked for money
10 to purchase weapons?
11 A. I am not aware of that.
12 Q. I'm just asking you this. Please look further down. Do you know
13 Abu Hajir?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Do you know Abu Rachid?
16 A. I think not.
17 Q. Do you know Abu Eymen?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Witness, you see here conversations among these people with
20 Arabic names regarding the procurement of weapons. Did you know that the
21 Mujahedin did obtain weapons for themselves with their own money?
22 A. Yes, I did know that they purchased weapons.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Can this
24 document be given an exhibit number, please, Your Honour?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
1 please be given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 339.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
5 Q. Witness, during your testimony yesterday, you said on a number of
6 occasions that the Mujahedin were under the command of the army, that is,
within the composition of the army of
8 would like to put to you is the following: The Mujahedin in Bosnia and
10 commanders never gave orders to them. I'm talking about commands and not
11 cooperation. Can you confirm that?
12 A. I don't agree. First of all, we foreign Mujahedin did not
13 participate in any battle without cooperating with the BH army -- or,
14 rather, the local commanders decided the locations where we would attack.
15 Then they would ask us for our assistance, and then we would take part in
16 that operation but on condition that we, too, have to carry out
17 surveillance of the area.
18 Q. And during those operations you received orders from your
20 A. Yes, because whichever battle we agreed to take part in, we set
21 as a precondition to the Bosnian commanders that during the attack itself
22 we should be in command, and they agreed to that.
23 Q. So the -- your precondition for participating in the operation
24 was that you should be in command. Is that a correct understanding?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Testifying yesterday, Witness, you mentioned the name
2 Abdul, and I apologise if I mispronounce it, Abuladim Maqtouf as one of
3 the interpreters for the Mujahedin. Do you remember mentioning that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. He was not a member of the El Mujahedin unit?
6 A. No, he was not a member.
7 Q. Is that the person who was convicted by an effective judgement
8 for participation in hijack -- in the kidnapping?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what is your position about this? Was this person guilty? I
11 don't want you to recount this event. I just want to hear what you view
12 is. Was the person guilt or not?
13 A. I think that that person was not guilty for the crime for which
14 he was convicted.
15 Q. Thank you. I now wish to ask you, do you remember that you gave
16 a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor of the State Court of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina against the accused Abduladim Maqtouf to Jonathan
18 Smith on
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Will you now please look at that statement. It is D348. First
21 of all, take a look at the second page of the document. Take a look at
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you have it in
25 Q. Now, since the document was compiled before a Bosnian court, the
1 Bosnian version is signed. Witness, do you agree that you signed this
3 A. I agree.
4 Q. So can you please take a look at the second page. No. Actually,
5 it's page number 5 in Bosnian, and in English it's page number 4. So
6 number 4 in English, and for you number 5.
7 Have you found it, page number 5? I'm now going to quote a short
8 excerpt from -- from your conversation with the Prosecutor. The
9 Prosecutor asks: "You say al-Qaeda. There was no al-Qaeda organisation
10 in BiH."
11 A. In Bosnian it's number 4, actually.
12 Q. My mistake.
13 A. Yes, I see it.
14 Q. So the Prosecutor: "You say al-Qaeda. There was no al-Qaeda
15 organisation in BiH." You say: "It is not true." Prosecutor: "There
16 were soldiers who fought, but there was no al-Qaeda organisation." You
17 answer: "That is not true, because al-Qaeda organised the arrival of
18 Mujahedins to be BiH. Their people were the leaders of those forces."
19 Prosecutor: "Including El Mujahid unit?" And you answer: "Yes."
20 Therefore, you said here that people from al-Qaeda headed the
21 detachment and commanded the detachment; is that correct?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. You also clearly stated that al-Qaeda organised the arrival of
24 those people to
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. Now, Witness, isn't it improbable that the commanders of a poor
3 you are attempting to say here?
4 A. Well, briefly I can only state that we, the foreign Mujahedins,
from the very arrival to
6 arrived here to help the Bosnian people. It is true that we have stated
7 that, but we had our secret goals unknown to local people. Not those
8 from the BiH army, and also not the leadership, Izetbegovic and others
9 who led the country during the war.
10 In my book, I wrote a text headed "The Connections Between The
11 Current Leadership of the BiH and the Mujahedins." So I state that there
12 was a connection between the BiH army and Mujahedins, and what I say is
13 that they were controlled by the BiH army, I mean the Mujahedins, but
14 they didn't know and what those foreign Mujahedins were precisely because
15 we tried to hide those things from them. I mean, al-Qaeda activities.
16 We arrived here on a mission there al-Qaeda.
17 Q. Wait a minute here. I have just given you a part of your
18 statement given to the international state prosecutor here. I think it
19 was Jonathan Smith. There you say that members of al-Qaeda commanded
20 Mujahedins. How could the BH army then control them? How can you
21 explain that?
22 A. Well, there was different kinds of commands. For instance, if
23 you talk about El Misri, one of the chiefs of the Mujahedin, he had
24 contact with the people who had come from outside the BiH. He would be
25 the one who would report about a situation.
1 So for instance, if al-Qaeda would refuse that we take part in an
2 attack, then we wouldn't take part in that attack even with the BiH army
3 would request -- would request us. So if al-Qaeda would give permission
4 to take part in an attack, it would mean that we would have to cooperate
5 with the BiH army. It means that al-Qaeda was on top of everything for
6 us, the foreign Mujahedin.
7 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I'm satisfied with this answer.
8 Now, can you take a look at D349.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And of course I should like to ask
10 the previous document be given an exhibit number.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The previous document 348 is admitted into
12 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 340.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
17 Q. Witness, D349, page number 06050631. So what I'm interested in
18 is line number six where it says: "This unit was merged with the
19 Mujahedin unit called Zubeir 's unit."
20 I want to ask you a question in relation to that.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In English, Your Honours, you have
22 the passage here, and it says: "This unit was merged with the Mujahedin
23 unit called Zubeir's unit."
24 Q. Witness, here you state: "This unit was merged with the
25 Mujahedin unit called Zubeir's unit. I, however, was not under the
1 command of the Green Berets but Zubeir's unit. Otherwise, the
2 Mujahedin position was always the same. Mujahedin should be commanded by
3 the Mujahedin and the Bosniaks by the Bosniaks. We will cooperate and
4 work together with them, but we shall not accept any orders from them.
5 We can only accept proposals which then we may accept or not. This was
6 al-Qaeda position of which I was aware even before I came to Bosnia and
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam Vidovic.
9 Yes, Mr. Mundis.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, perhaps before, if the witness
11 answers, if we could be given a time period in which this part of the
12 witness's book relates. I think we've been shown a huge number of
13 excerpts from his book. This excerpt in particular, I believe, needs to
14 have a particular date reference for the benefit of the Trial Chamber,
15 and so I would ask my learned colleague if she could provide us or
16 perhaps ask the witness to provide us with the time period in which this
17 excerpt of his book relates.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I will do that.
20 Q. Witness, here you describe activities of Zubeir's unit, and all
21 of us here really want to know whether you remember what time period is
22 it, your description here. Did I understand it correctly that it was
24 A. It is the period from 1994 until the end of the war.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, does this satisfy you?
2 Yes. Thank you.
3 Q. So let's finish this thing here. It says here: "Work together
4 with them but not accept any orders from them, only proposals, which then
5 we may accept or not. This was al-Qaeda position of which I have been
6 aware before I came to BiH, and it had never been violated in this area
7 during the entire war."
8 Now, Witness, it is correct, isn't it, that you described here
9 actual relations between the Bosniaks and the Mujahedins? The al-Qaeda
10 rules was in force when it comes to the Mujahedins?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. Thank you. And now just a brief question related to
13 Abu Zubeir's unit.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is having very
15 important for us right now, but before that I should ask that this
16 document be given an exhibit number.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
18 please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 341.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
22 Q. You remember that when you gave the statement to the Prosecutor
23 in August 2006 you gave a detailed description of the Abu Zubeir's
25 A. I remember that.
1 Q. Now, first of all, you knew Mr. Abu Zubeir very well?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you give us his physical description? Was there something
4 characteristic about him?
5 A. Well, he looked a bit fat, a bit slow. He didn't look like a
6 military-able man.
7 Q. In other words, he was big. He was fat. Am I correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like the
11 witness to take a look at D350. For the record, that's an excerpt from
12 the book written by Evan Kohlmann titled "Al-Qaeda's Jihad in Europe."
13 In Bosnian it's page 52. In English it's the second page in
14 English here. It begins with words "Like Abu Sulajman [phoen],
15 Abu Zubeir al Haili."
16 Q. Can you see that Witness, the beginning of this page? It says
17 here: "Like Abu Sulajman, Abu Zubeir al Haili, also known as 'The
18 Bear,' a 300 pound monster of a man, had also first gained the reputation
19 as a fearless and calculating military commander in Afghanistan before
20 serving as an artillery expert with the
Arab Mujahedin in
21 recently, Abu Zubeir was a resident of
22 regularly sent young recruits from the West to Taliban and al-Qaeda
23 training camps in central
24 Arabia as bin Laden and had first fought alongside the infamous al-Qaeda
25 chief during the Soviet-Afghan war. Two years ago, The Bear even
1 reportedly helped coordinate the escape of Osama bin Laden from the
2 collapsing Tora Bora cave complex."
3 Now, I'm interested in description of this person. The person
4 described in here, is that the person that you call Abu Zubeir?
5 A. We used to call him Abu Zubeir al Haili, that's true, but this
6 other name is unknown to me, so I'm not quite sure whether it's the same
8 Q. But I'm asking you about the physical description.
9 A. Well, physically, yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The name is unknown, The Bear?
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
12 Q. "Abu Zubeir al Haili," did you say that?
13 A. Yes, I said that.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said you know that name, but you also said,
15 "This other name I do not know," and I'm -- my question is which other
16 name is this that you don't know? Is that the name that calls him The
17 Bear or anything else?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. Excuse me. You didn't
19 understand me. Here they say that this person has, among other names,
20 also Abu Zubeir al Haili. In answer to the question of Defence whether
21 it was the same person that I was referring to, I said maybe. Maybe it
22 is, maybe it isn't. Because this name here, Abu Zubeir al Haili, is
23 the name that I know, but his characteristics contained in here are not
24 known to me. That is why I cannot conclude whether that's the same
25 person or not.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for that explanation.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honours, for
3 interrupting you.
4 Q. Now, Witness, the description in book, is that the physical
5 description of Abu Zubeir that you know? He's a big man?
6 A. Yes, that is correct.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we assign an
9 exhibit to this document?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
11 please be given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 342.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
15 Q. And now, Witness, I would like to remind you again of the
16 statement you gave to the investigators of the -- of the Prosecutor on
17 the 15th of August, 2006, if I'm not mistaken. Do you remember that you
18 drew a very detailed diagram of the attack, and it was attachment B to
19 your statement of the 15th of August? First of all, can you take a look
20 at D352? You will then understand what I'm referring to. D352.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me explain. I did
22 request a translation of the entirety of the text contained in this
23 document. However, you know the problems. I really don't have to
24 explain these things. You know that the Translation Unit has lots of
25 work, so we only have here a small translation of the part of the text in
1 the left upper corner and the left lower corner. When I receive the
2 whole translation of the document, I'm going to attach it. In other
3 words, I'm going to replace this incomplete translation with the complete
4 translation. However, right now --
5 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps -- my learned colleague has made reference
6 to an attack. Perhaps if she can again for the record indicate the date
7 that this diagram relates to, please.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic?
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. First I
10 wanted the witness to take a look at the map, and then I would of course
11 go on and ask the very question that my colleague, Prosecutor, now
13 Q. Witness, in your statement given to the Prosecutor you described
14 events relate -- related to the attack on Vozuca in September 1995. Am I
15 correct? I'm talking here about your statement to the Prosecutors.
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. So that's the attack. Now, can you take a look at your drawing,
18 and can you confirm that you have indeed drawn this in your own hand,
19 signed, and then handed over to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 17th
20 of August, 2006?
21 A. Yes, that's the same drawing.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like this
24 document to be assigned an exhibit number.
25 Q. Witness, here you have described the movements of certain units
1 such as El Mujahedin and Abu Zubeir during the attack; is that correct?
2 A. That is correct.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
4 please be given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 343.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
8 Q. Witness, now I would like to pose a brief question related to a
9 person that you maybe know. I'm going to ask you do you know Ahmed
10 Zuhayr aka Handala?
11 A. I know him.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like the
13 witness to take a look at D354.
14 Q. And before we start working with this document, it is correct,
15 isn't it, that in September 1995, in combat activities, this person also
16 took part along with his group? I am talking about Ahmed Zuhayr Handala.
17 A. That is not correct. He took part in this action, but he was an
18 ordinary soldier under my command.
19 Q. Okay. But you haven't really understood my question. I haven't
20 really said if he was in the Abu Zubeir's unit. I simply said he did
21 take part in combat activities in 1995.
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. All right. Now, take a look at D354.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, this is a statement
25 given to the FBI investigators related to the murder of William Arnold
2 Your Honour, we have that statement in English. We are
3 interested in the second paragraph. Second paragraph on the first page
4 of the statement, both in Bosnian and English version.
5 Q. Witness, you stated that: "Handala left the Mujahedins due to a
6 misunderstanding. He wanted to form his own unit, and he had good
7 connections with Osama bin Laden, and Osama bin Laden respected what
8 Handala wanted to do with his group. Handala, aka Zuhayr, convinced
9 member of the Mujahedin's Light Brigade and other young members to join
10 his unit. It was Handala's plan to develop the young members of his unit
11 to become the future members of the unit."
12 So I understand that Handala, in 1995, was not a member of
13 El Mujahedin.
14 A. That is correct.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like this
16 document to be assigned an exhibit number. Your Honour, maybe this is
17 also a convenient moment for the break.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
19 please be given an exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 344.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 Madam Vidovic, I did know that you did ask at the beginning of
23 your cross-examination that you be given slightly more time than the
24 Prosecution did get. You will -- you are left with about 10 minutes to
25 the end of your first three hours. Just think about that during the
2 We will take a break and a come back at 1.00. Court adjourned.
3 --- Recess taken at
4 --- On resuming at
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
7 Q. Witness, before the break we talked about Zuhayr, and now I would
8 like you to look at document D355. D355?
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, I would like to
10 say that this is an article published in the Oslobodjenje daily on the
11 7th of December, 1997, and the title of the article is "Zuhayr is the
12 Real Handala."
13 Q. I can see that you put your glasses on. Can you please look at
14 this photograph and the ID document, and I'm asking you the following:
15 The person from this ID card, is that Handala Zuhayr, the same Handala
16 that we are talking about?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Witness, now I'm going to read to you the beginning of the text,
19 this article from the Oslobodjenje daily
20 It is says -- it says: "Ahmed Zuhayr, whose official identity card
21 issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs
22 published in yesterday's Oslobodjenje, is the real Handala suspected of
23 being a high-ranking terrorist in these areas."
24 And then at the bottom of the article...
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is page 2 in the
2 Q. ... there is another excerpt just underneath the photograph, and
3 it says: "Zuhayr is a Saudi but most probably worked for several
4 intelligence services."
5 I would like to ask you this: Is Zuhayr from -- is he a Saudi by
7 A. I think that he's a Yemeni, but he had a Saudi passport.
8 Q. All right. Can you tell me if you had information that he worked
9 for intelligence services?
10 A. I did not have that information. I learned that only during
11 questioning. But before that I noticed that he had some secret contacts
12 with the HVO military police.
13 Q. He had contacts with the military police of the Croatian Defence
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When did you notice that?
17 A. I met him or had meetings with him from 1994 until the end of the
18 war. Before being arrested in 1995, he moved around in territories that
19 were under the control of the HVO without difficulties while other
20 Mujahedin were not able to do so. Sometimes he was escorted by HVO
21 police vehicles.
22 Q. Thank you very much.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I would like the
24 witness to look -- oh, and also can this document be given an exhibit
25 number, please, this article?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
2 please be given an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 345.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
7 Q. Witness, I would now like you to look at D356. This is an
interview that you gave on
9 magazine. Witness I would like to ask you to first tell us if you did
10 provide this interview. Can you look, please? And it's dated the 26th
11 of June, 2007.
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. Can you please look at page 2 of this interview. I am going to
14 ask you the following: Can you please look at this part when you are
15 being asked: "Why was that building demolished? What was that for?"
16 Could you see that part?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. The journalist asked you about the crime that you were sentenced
19 for as an accomplice, and you talked about the person who was convicted
20 together with you for the same crime. Am I correct?
21 A. Yes, you are.
22 Q. I'm going to read a part out to you. You said that he worked for
23 al-Qaeda and also the Croatian Secret Service. Which jobs did he do for
24 al-Qaeda and which ones did he do for al-Qaeda [as interpreted]?
I don't know. I don't know if
man, but I know that on one occasion he was allowed to come from
2 with a truck full of weapons which were handed over to the Mujahedin.
3 Q. My question is: Were you talking here about Ahmed Zuhayr Handala
4 or someone else?
5 A. About Ahmed Zuhayr.
6 Q. And you had information that he worked for the Croatian Secret
A. I repeated what I was told
during questioning by the
9 Herzegovina MUP, but before that I suspected that he was cooperating with
10 the Secret Service, which was then confirmed to me by the inspector
11 during my questioning.
12 Q. Forget the inspectors now. Can you tell me -- and I'm talking
13 about your personal knowledge now, not what you heard from others. What
14 did you personally know about this cooperation? Did you know about this
15 truck with weapons?
16 A. I didn't know about this truck with weapons, I wasn't present,
17 but he confirmed that himself. And I know that the Mujahedin in
18 Travnik -- or, rather, in Zenica received plenty of weapons through him.
19 So this confirmed to me that he was speaking the truth.
20 Q. And what was he saying?
That he came from
22 he managed to enter
23 weapons over to the Muslims.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be
1 given an exhibit number.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
3 please be given an exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 346.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 Madam Vidovic.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
8 Q. Witness, I would now like to clarify one more thing with you.
9 You described at one point -- or you said that Abdel Aziz told you about
10 his contacts with Izetbegovic, and then you said some other Bosniak
11 Muslims had contacts with al-Qaeda representatives. Did I understand you
12 correctly, that you said that at the time you did not know anything about
13 the al-Qaeda organisation itself? Am I correct?
14 A. Are you thinking about Bosnian Muslims?
15 Q. Yes, I am.
16 A. Yes, that is correct. I didn't know about that, or they didn't
17 know about that.
18 Q. Would you agree that al-Qaeda and its actions became a topic only
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. So the local Muslims considered them Arabs. They didn't have any
22 idea about al-Qaeda at that time. Is that what you wanted to say?
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. I have no
25 further questions.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: 11th of September of which, ma'am?
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 2001. And I hope I am not mistaken
3 in that year. If I have made a mistake, I apologise, but it's 2001.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do I understand you said that it is your evidence
that the Muslims in
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did say that, yes, but I'm
8 thinking of the people, not about the authorities or people in authority.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in that case just one
11 more clarification.
12 Q. Witness, please, when you were describing these contacts of
13 individuals from the Bosnian leadership, did I understand you correctly
14 that you said that they, at the time during the war, did not know that
15 the Arabs --
16 A. Not during the wartime, only after the war. Only then was this
17 discussed in international institutions. So local organs didn't know
18 about that.
19 Q. That these were al-Qaeda members actually?
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. Thank you very much.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.
25 Mr. Mundis.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Re-examination by Mr. Mundis:
3 Q. Mr. Hamed, I just want to return to a couple of questions raised
4 both by the Defence and in the question that the Presiding Judge just put
5 to you. When you say the authorities may have known about al-Qaeda,
6 who -- whom are you referring to?
7 A. I meant the police, the intelligence people. I said and I wrote
8 in my book that they didn't know about that, but we cannot rule out the
9 possibility that some of them did know.
10 Q. And in response to a number of questions put to you by
11 Mrs. Vidovic, you elaborated upon an earlier answer you'd given me
12 concerning a meeting between Ebu Abdel Aziz and President Izetbegovic,
13 and my question to you, sir, is are you aware of any other instance where
14 foreign Mujahedin or foreign Mujahedin leaders met with President
16 A. I heard something in conversations with Mujahedin. I was a unit
17 commander at the beginning of the war, and all my interest was focused on
18 my own unit, meaning that I did not pay attention to these other affairs,
19 contacts with the political and military
20 when the Mujahedin Detachment was formed, I learned through conversations
21 with Mujahedin from the El Mujahedin Detachment that they had travelled
23 and with several important people who were in the leadership of the
24 country during the war and that they met with the military leadership,
25 but they didn't name the persons involved
1 Q. And for purposes of clarification, Mr. Hamed, were you in at any
2 point a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment?
3 A. I was a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment, but I can say that
4 this was before the formation of the El Mujahedin Detachment. When I
5 left the Mujahedin groups that were billeted in Travnik and Mehurici,
6 then a short time after that they formed they formed the El Mujahedin
8 Q. Sir, are you familiar with a publication of President Izetbegovic
9 called "The Islamic Declaration"?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Mr. Hamed, did you ever hear about a military unit called the
12 Bosanska Krajina Operations Group?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Mr. Hamed, you were asked a number of times by the Defence about
15 orders received by the foreign Mujahedin from Bosnian army generals. Do
16 you remember that?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Can you simply tell us, sir, during the period when you were the
19 commander of the Mujahedin unit in Bijelo Bucje in the first half of 1993
20 how the cooperation was between your unit, the local units, and your
21 commander, Wahiuddin, who was in Mehurici? Can you describe that
22 relationship for the Trial Chamber, please?
23 A. When they had a plan, and I'm thinking about the B and H army
24 units, to attack any location which would be too hard for them, they
25 would come to me and they would ask me to take part in the same attack.
1 I would then voice my willingness to do that, but under the condition
2 that this be told to me by Wahiuddin, and then they would get in touch
3 with him and he would approve that. Then I would personally have to get
4 in touch with Wahiuddin and hear from him personally that I was given a
5 green light, because, frankly speaking, I didn't have too much confidence
6 in the armija units.
7 Q. But say, sir, that they would get in touch with Wahiuddin, who
8 were you referring to?
9 A. I'm thinking of several company commanders who were billeted in
10 Travnik. I'm thinking of, for example, Vahid Dervisevic, one of the
11 commanders of the 317th Krajina Brigade. I'm thinking of -- there were a
12 few, in any case, but I cannot recall the names.
13 MR. MUNDIS: One moment, Your Honours.
14 The Prosecution has no further questions for the witness.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, you spoke to us, if I'm
19 not mistaken, about and intervention by General Alagic. In fact, an
20 intervention by threats in order to prevent the Mujahedin destroying the
21 church at Guca Gora, and he succeeded you told us. I would like to know,
22 to the best of your knowledge, whether commanders of Bosnian army units
23 intervened on other occasions to prevent criminal activities by the
25 A. I don't know.
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Mr. Hamed, I have two sets of
3 questions for you. The first set of questions relates to the technical
4 operations on the ground, and the reason I'm putting these questions to
5 you is that I need to ascertain just how was the responsibility divided
6 between the ABiH command and your command over your troops.
7 I understand from your testimony yesterday and today that your
8 involvement in combat operations would always begin -- or at least would
9 frequently begin by a request made by the local ABiH commander to --
10 either to you or to Wahiuddin for assistance from the Mujahedin soldiers
11 to engage in a combat operation that the ABiH wanted to carry out. So
12 the initiative was always -- or at least most frequently taken by the
13 ABiH. And then your involvement would then depend on acceptance from
14 Wahiuddin, meaning that you would not engage in any combat operations
15 unless you had the green light from him.
16 Have I understood this correctly?
17 A. Yes, that is correct.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Then how was the operation normally planned? Now
19 closely were the details arranged between you and the ABiH forces on the
20 technical level? Can you clarify this a bit?
21 A. Yes. For the first steps we needed to reconnoiter the terrain
22 where the attack was supposed to be carried out. So we as foreigners
23 were not as familiar with the terrain as the local people were. So I
24 would pick a few men from my units who were able to communicate with the
25 local people, and then the other unit that comprised Bosniaks would also
1 choose a few men, and then they would together carry out the
2 reconnaissance of the terrain, and it would take maybe two or three days,
3 maybe more, maybe less. And then after that, if we needed some equipment
4 or weapons that we were lacking we would take it from them. We were also
5 provided with food.
6 Then we would agree when the attack would begin. So there had to
7 be an agreement. They would not order us when to attack, but they would
8 suggest a time for us, and we would accept that proposal. In case their
9 proposal did not suit us, then we would not participate in that attack.
10 Then we would set off together to attack, but us foreign fighters
11 would always be in the first strike. They would mostly ask us for help
12 when they felt that they could not liberate an area or an elevation by
13 themselves, meaning that we were going first. We would seize the
14 location. Then we would continue with the attack, and then they would
15 secure and guard the locations that we had liberated.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you choose which route for your soldiers to
17 follow, or was that something that was also done in agreement? What I
18 mean was that when you begin an operation, let's say you want to take
19 control over a mountain, then your soldiers might go either right or left
20 or go straight up, but who took the position -- who took the decision
21 to -- to choose the routes that your soldiers would follow? Would that
22 be you or would that be done in agreement?
23 A. This would be done in agreement, or the proposal would always
24 come from them because they were more familiar with the terrain than we
25 were. And then after surveying or reconnoitering the terrain we would
1 accept the proposal if it suited us too. If it did not suit us, for
2 example, the place where the attack would begin, we would give our
3 proposal. If they refused or rejected our proposal, then - they
4 sometimes used to do that - then we would move to the conditions or
5 terms. Either the attack would be done the way we wanted it done or we
6 would not participation in the action. So in that case, they would
7 accept our terms and the attack would be executed the way we planned and
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Then during the operation I suppose
10 you would have to act as commander quite independently in the action
11 itself. When the attack physically began, then, I suppose, that you as a
12 commander would then direct your soldiers to attack this house or to
13 seize this valley in the sense that -- that at that point during the
14 operation to would be too difficult to enter into any negotiations and
15 agreement about the physical exercise of the operation, the carrying out
16 of the operation. So my question to you is: Once the operation was --
17 was started, would there then still be cooperation and negotiation
18 between the ABiH and you, or would you at that time be the commander of
19 your forces alone?
20 A. That depended on whether an agreement was reached about that
21 attack or if we had set pre-conditions that they accepted. If it was a
22 joint endeavour, then we would only go as far as we were told to go, that
23 we shouldn't go any further than that. However, if it is an attack in
24 which we demanded that we play the main role, then we would capture the
25 location that they were interested in, but we would frequently go further
1 on and they would follow.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: All right. Subsequent to attacks, would you then
3 report back to Wahiuddin or to the ABiH on the -- on the progress of the
4 attack? I mean, after the attack had been completed, then who would you
5 report to?
6 A. I would first inform Wahiuddin, and then I would communicate by
7 way of radio with the commanders of the units who took part in the same
8 operation to see what next. Should we withdraw, retreat, or is there a
9 follow-up to this plan.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Now, suppose you -- or maybe I should
11 ask in a different way. Did you ever during any of the operations that
12 you commanded become aware of irregularities committed by your own
14 A. Yes, this did happen, on several occasions.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could you give one or two examples of such
16 irregularities, and also explain to the Chamber which actions you took?
17 A. In 1993, when I was commander of a unit in Bijelo Bucje, we had
18 contact with Bosniak units regarding military activities, so that
19 frequently Bosniaks would come to see me who could speak Arabic. One of
20 my soldiers, an Egyptian, Abu Handala, wanted to kill one of the leaders
21 of Bosniak units in Bijelo Bucje. It is Zuhdija Adilovic. He tried to
22 persuade me that we should do that, accusing him of allowing the Bosniaks
23 to drink alcohol, and Islam prohibits this. He also accused him of
24 secretly collaborating with the HVO, of endeavouring to destroy Islam and
25 eliminate it from the hearts of Bosniak youth. I didn't allow it, and
1 this didn't happen.
2 Another example I would choose dates back to 1995. During an
3 attack on Vozuca, at the beginning of the attack I led a group. I was on
4 the right flank or the right side of the small town, and in front of us
5 was Vozuca. From the middle of the attack until the end I led all the
6 Mujahedin, because the main leader of that operation was wounded and he
7 had to go back. And I remember that a man appeared from a trench, a Serb
8 soldier. I assume he was about 45 years old. And as he raised his
9 rifle, he said that he wanted to surrender, and he begged us not to kill
11 I did not allow the soldiers to shoot at him, and I told him that
12 everything would be okay, he just had to put his rifle on the ground and
13 to approach. He did that. And my intention was to save his life, but I
14 didn't know what to do with him because the battle was ongoing, and we
15 were still being shot at, and we still had to hide behind trees.
16 So I told him, "Everything will be okay. Just stay by me." He
17 cried, and he said -- he begged me, "Please don't kill me. I have three
19 I protected him as much as I could from the Mujahedin. However,
20 my fighters attacked him physically, and I couldn't prevent it. When
21 they saw that they couldn't kill him, then they said, "Let us at least
22 physically hurt him." The soldier probably didn't trust me, and I don't
23 blame him for not trusting me. Who would have trusted me in such
24 circumstances? Not a single Serb soldier would have trust me if I were
25 to say to him, "Don't run away. I'll spare your life."
1 So I was busy, occupied with the shooting that we were exposed
2 to, and there was the shooting coming from a wood, and he took advantage
3 of my lack of attention and he fled, but he chose the wrong side. He in
4 fact ran towards another group of Mujahedin led by Abid Ash Shargi, a
5 Saudi who took part in the attack as the commander of a group.
6 I don't know what happened to him, but later, upon the completion
7 of that operation, I learnt that the Mujahedin who were under the command
8 of Abid Ash Shargi had killed him. That is, that they had shot at him.
9 And after that, a commander of mine, Abid, approached him and severed his
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know if he was taken prisoner before he
12 was killed?
13 A. They didn't take him prisoner. They opened fire at him, because
14 this Serb soldier didn't stop running.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let's just move back a little bit to the violence
16 that your people administered to him while he was still with your group.
17 Did you ever take any action to reproach your men, to say that this is
18 not lawful to attack a prisoner?
19 A. Could you please repeat the question? There was an interruption,
20 so I didn't hear your whole question.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sorry. My question was if you ever raised the
22 incident again with your troops to reproach them for having hit the Serb
23 soldier while he was under your command, under your protection.
24 A. I did everything I could at that point in time. I stood between
25 the Serb soldier and a group of my fighters who were -- wanted to assault
1 him. I didn't dare, nor did I have the authority to take any steps
2 against them, because I was the commander of a group during the attack,
3 but I wasn't the overall commander of Zubeir's unit. So this should
4 have been done by the main commander.
5 What I did was to inform my superior, Abu Zubeir, about the
6 whole event, what they did, what I did to prevent it, but Abu Zubeir
7 considered me to be wrong. He felt that what I did was helping
8 Christians, and he supported what my soldiers did.
9 I also informed Sead Rekic [phoen] about this. Sead Rekic was a
10 major and had a special unit within the 3rd Corps under the commands of
11 Sakib Mahmuljin, and he simply said that there was nothing he could do.
12 I also informed Sakib Mahmuljin personally about this event. He
13 simply did not react to what I was saying.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Your answer to me begs the question of whether
15 your troops, and yourself, indeed, knew the laws of the war as they are
16 laid down in the Geneva Conventions and whether you were ready to abide
17 by these rules. Did you recognise the Geneva Conventions in your combat
19 A. I learnt a little about this, but let me tell you just one thing.
20 During that period of time, I was a bad person. I engaged in bad
21 activities, and I can tell you that I wasn't really interested in the
22 things you just mentioned. But there's one thing in my mind. It is true
23 that I was a bad person, an evil person, and that I did some evil things,
24 but I wasn't aggressive. So my position, even while I was the unit
25 commander, if I attack a particular location, I'm interested in that
1 location alone. I seek to spare the lives of my fighters and the lives
2 on the opposite side, because I was taught in the bin Laden school in
4 them from all sides, they may be much weaker than you, but they will have
5 to fight against you with all available means because that would be a
6 matter of life and death. And that is why I didn't like to do that.
7 Whenever I attacked or took part in an operation against the army
8 of Republika Srpska or the HVO, I gave them an hour and a half advance
9 warning that we were marching. So I would shoot at the targets and then
10 standstill with my soldiers for about an hour and a half. And once I
11 knew that there was no one left in the village, I would enter the house
12 with a small group, although -- enter the village and the houses to see
13 whether there were any people left. Then I would enter [as interpreted]
14 my other fighters to enter. But I always said that they must the kill a
15 prisoner. If they come across a wounded person, that they mustn't kill
16 him but that they should give him aid. And I personally helped Croatian
17 soldiers and took them to a hospital. I even threatened my own soldiers
18 and said, "Should such a thing happen, if I hear of a woman being raped,
19 that I would have to kill that fighter." And that is precisely why I was
20 removed from the position of commander but -- because this kind of
21 approach did not suit my -- my bosses.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you, during your training in -- with the
23 al-Qaeda -- before your arrival to
24 about the Geneva Conventions -- was that a part -- was that a part of
25 your training, your military training by
the al-Qaeda, or were the
1 Conventions ever mentioned during the training?
2 A. It was mentioned during the training, but we called it
3 differently. We call -- we rejected it. The main al-Qaeda cells
4 rejected all these rules. We called it Taguts [phoen], because al-Qaeda
5 had quite different rules.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: I apologise for taking time into looking into
7 these issues, but I think they're quite relevant. So my question would
8 be were the rules that you were taught at al-Qaeda, were they in
conformity with, shall we say, the basic principles of the
10 Conventions, or were they completely different?
11 A. They were quite the opposite, completely the opposite.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Let me then move to my second line of
13 questions, and this line of questions relate to the possibility of taking
14 actions towards or against people who had committed offences during the
15 combat operations.
16 You told us about a trial that you a part in because you had been
17 accused of something and a trial was then held against you conducted by
18 the Mujahedin.
19 My question was, first of all, what were you accused of at that
21 A. I see. What I told you about my rules during operations did not
22 suit the Mujahedin leaders in
23 first attack on a mountain called Mescama near Travnik, near the village
24 of Bijelo Bucje where my unit was billeted.
25 During the attack I held a speech to all my soldiers and said
1 that there must be no rapes; that anybody trying to escape should not be
2 killed, even people shooting at a us from a distance we shouldn't shoot
3 back, but we would just avoid being hit; that we must assisted wounded.
4 And I took two wounded men to hospital. This was one of the reasons why
5 they held me before something like a military court, and Imad [phoen] El
6 Misri asked me whether I was doing this to assist the Croats. "Have we
8 and every one of them?" So they demanded of me to kill everyone. And
9 when we attacked something that not a single person should be left alive,
10 even animals. But I didn't do that.
11 The second reason why I was tried -- this was in secret and all
12 the members of the Mujahedin unit didn't know about it but only a group
13 of people linked to al-Qaeda. My refusal to obey Wahiuddin's orders
14 meant for them that I was rejecting the orders of al-Qaeda, and they
15 considered this as an indication that I wanted to abandon them.
16 Let me add there was a small misunderstanding between me and the
17 leaders of the Mujahedin forces, so I was replaced from my duties. I was
18 insulted, I felt offended, and I left them for a while and joined the
19 317th Krajina Brigade.
20 From -- in that short period I contacted only local people and
21 had no contact at all with the Mujahedin. They felt that my intention
22 was to withdraw not only from the Mujahedin forces there but from
23 al-Qaeda which had sent me here, and that is why the decision was taken
24 to arrest me.
25 I must also add that I am still claiming that local people, and I
referring to the Bosniaks, didn't know who and what we were. They
didn't know that our coming to
4 al-Qaeda. They simply knew that we had come here to help the Muslims.
5 I wish to tell everyone that the Bosniaks, no ordinary foreign
6 Mujahedin, knew that I was linked to al-Qaeda. They didn't know that the
7 leaders of the Mujahedin forces were linked to al-Qaeda. We sought to
8 conceal our links to al-Qaeda.
9 And the trial went as follows: That I would be secretly
10 questioned. I would be alone and only then we would talk about al-Qaeda
11 and why I was rejecting orders and withdrawing from al-Qaeda. They tried
12 to persuade me that I should rejoin the Mujahedin in order for my life to
13 be spared.
14 There was also a public trial held -- I think it was in
15 Mehuric -- no, in Orasje where the Mujahedin camp was, and there were
16 quite a number of Bosniaks who watched this trial. At that trial some
17 other reasons were given for my arrest so that these Bosniaks would not
18 discover the al-Qaeda activities in
19 had smuggled cigarettes, that I had come
20 with women, to drink alcohol, which is wrong. And then I was sentenced
21 to 20 days of prison.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you at any point become aware of attempts
23 made by the ABiH to take action against crimes committed by Mujahedin
24 troops, for instance, looting or killing of prisoners or torture or
25 inhumane treatment? Crimes that we have heard during this trial did
1 occur and were probably committed at some occasions by Mujahedin troops
2 and which were brought to the knowledge of the ABiH commanders. My
3 question is: Was there any -- was there ever any action taken from the
4 ABiH to discipline or perhaps prosecute members of the Mujahedin?
5 A. To the best of my knowledge this did not happen once during the
6 war or after the war. Allow me to tell you something. After my arrest
7 in 1997, but this is linked to your question, I tried to get in touch
with certain responsible officials here in
9 hundred times about the crimes committed by the Mujahedin.
10 Policemen came to see me, intelligence officers, too, and I told
11 them about several killings of Serb and Croatian civilians. I told them
12 where these crime had been committed, where and when and who were the
13 perpetrators of those crimes. However, to this day I don't see that
14 anything has been done in concrete terms. But let me go back to the time
15 of war.
16 In 1995, an operation was carried out at Vozuca and Ozren.
17 Participating in this operation were many Bosniak units. The organiser
18 of that operation was the -- the generals of the 3rd and the 2nd Corps.
19 We foreign Mujahedin did participate in the attack. Mujahedin Detachment
20 attacked Vozuca from Paljenik. I was in Zubeir's unit at the time.
21 I'm talking about Zubeir's unit. We attacked Vozuca from a mountain
22 called Gradic. Gradic and Paljenik are two high mountains, and between
23 them in the valley is Vozuca, which means that we attacked from two
25 When I came down with my soldiers to Vozuca, I remember that it
1 was deserted. There was no one there. I saw quite a number of foreign
2 fighters, Mujahedin Detachments. I also saw a large number of Bosniak
3 units. I was there with Sead Brkic. He didn't participate in the
4 attack, but he came from Zavidovici when the road was opened to Vozuca.
5 And I had this meeting with him. We were standing next to a check-point
6 formed by the Mujahedin Detachment. They formed it to prevent the
7 participants in the attack to take war booty and especially weapons,
8 except, of course, their own people.
9 At that check-point there were two commanders of the Mujahedin
10 Detachment, the Egyptian El Mu'utaz El Misri, who carried out the attack
11 on -- at Paljenik, and Enver Sha'aban also.
12 While we were talking, these two Mujahedin leaders and myself and
13 Sead Brkic [phoen], I remember seeing two trucks going towards that
14 check-point, and they stopped there for inspection. I didn't know where
15 the trucks were coming from, but later I learnt that they were coming
16 from Ozren, because most of the members of the Mujahedin Detachment were
17 already at
18 I noticed that one of those two trucks had blood dripping out of
19 it, and Sead Brkic saw this, Enver Sha'aban, and El Mu'utaz. I was
20 curious to see what was in those two trucks, as they were covered with
22 In the first truck there was large quantity of weapons, mostly
23 infantry weapons which the El Mujahedin Detachment had probably
24 confiscated at Ozren. The second truck from which blood was dripping, I
25 saw quite a number of bodies of killed soldiers. Some of them were
1 wearing military uniforms, some were almost naked. And I saw that these
2 killed men had no heads. I also noticed that among those corpses there
3 were some heads, severed heads. I can't tell you how many, but roughly
4 20 or maybe a little less or a little more perhaps.
5 I was watching Enver Sha'aban and El Mu'utaz El Misri, and I saw
6 an expression of satisfaction on their faces. They were smiling and
7 watching those bodies coldly, indifferently. Then I saw Sead Brkic's
8 expression. I saw that he was angry. His expression had changed, and I
9 thought to myself, Is Sead Brkic angry because of what we had seen in the
10 bloody truck, or had he changed because the Mujahedin Detachment did not
11 let his unit to take war booty, war bounty?
12 Then Enver Sha'aban and El Mu'utaz started a discussion in raised
13 voices and said, "You must remove this bloody truck straight away. Don't
14 let the other soldiers see this." And after that, he continued talking
15 to them, this Brkic, and he said why the Mujahedin did not allow his --
16 members of his unit to take part of the war booty, because they, too, had
17 participated in the attack. And he said that without his unit the
18 Mujahedin would not have liberated Paljenik, and had we not been at
19 Gradic he would have done nothing at Paljenik.
20 I'm telling you this whole story to show that Sead Urkic was
21 aware of the fact that the Mujahedin had killed and slaughtered people.
22 Now, whether he undertook anything or not, I don't know. Whether he took
23 any steps or not, I don't know.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Previous translation continues] ... your long
25 and detailed explanation. My last question is: If the Bosnian
1 authorities, the ABiH commanders, had wanted to take any action against
2 war crimes possibly committed by Mujahedin, would they, in your view,
3 have been able to do so?
4 Now, this is a question that you may not be able to answer, and
5 if you don't -- can't answer it, then please tell me so, but if you know
6 about discussions internally within the Mujahedin about possible
7 reactions to an attempt by the ABiH commanders to discipline or perhaps
8 prosecute crimes committed by the Mujahedin how the Mujahedin would have
9 reacted to such an attempt. If you know about this, I would be pleased
10 to know.
11 A. All the I know -- or let me explain it differently. It's
12 impossible that the B and H army, even though it wasn't formed properly,
13 that it would -- was not able to prevent just a handful of Mujahedin no
14 matter how many of them were there. If there were 100, 200, 300, even if
15 there were a thousand of them, why would not the B and H army be able to
16 prevent them?
17 I know that we, the foreign Mujahedin, had something like
18 immunity from the police. We enjoyed police immunity. We had somebody's
19 support. Someone was backing us. I don't know who. I mentioned in my
20 book several events which really do confirm that we were accepted here in
21 Bosnia with all the bad things that we did -- or, rather, the Mujahedin
22 did many bad things in public places. The police would come to them not
23 to arrest them, but to ask them that they should not be doing this any
25 For example, I would enter a coffee bar, cafe, where they are
1 serving alcoholic drinks as well. I would just demolish everything. I'm
2 not saying that I did this personally. I'm just using it as an example,
3 because many Mujahedin did that during the war.
4 So I still committed a criminal act. Somebody was supposed to
5 prevent me. Whether from the BH army, whether it was the police, the
6 military police, somebody of the local people from this country should
7 have done something.
8 All I know is that as long as I was the unit commander in Bijelo
9 Bucje in 1993, they would come to me, policemen, military policemen. The
10 policemen wore insignia OG from Travnik. And then they would say to me,
11 "Please, your soldiers did this, this, and this. Can you please tell
12 them that they are not allowed to do that, they shouldn't do that, it's
13 not nice behaviour? People would hate us."
14 So at the time my only conclusion was that even the police could
15 not do its work in relation to the foreign Mujahedin if they were
17 I also know about one Mujahedin who was in my unit in 1993 or
18 early 1994. He fired from a firearm at a vehicle which belonged to the
19 international forces at the time. It was actually the British Battalion,
20 the BritBat. And I know that earlier he wounded several of those
21 soldiers, and he was arrested. He was arrested by the local police and
22 spent about four months in detention. But after those four months he was
23 released, no indictment was issued, and there was no prison sentence. So
24 somebody worked to have him released. And after that the man
25 disappeared. So that means that he was given the opportunity to evade
responsibility on condition that he was no longer to stay in
2 I can cite one more example. In 1994 in Zenica, a large number
3 of Mujahedin lived in a village nine -- known by the name Olokov Polje
4 [phoen]. The Mujahedin, many of them, about 20 men, were living there
5 with their families in that village. I know about one of them, a
6 Palestinian who was known as Ebu Besir.
7 In the middle of the town, in the centre of Zenica, he stopped a
8 vehicle with the plates or insignia of the IFOR at that time, and under
9 threat that he would shoot at them, he got them out of the vehicle and
10 confiscated the vehicle. It was a vehicle like a small personnel
11 carrier. It was a military week. And he drove it in the centre of town,
12 and nobody could do anything about it. The police saw it. So this was
13 noted by the police. And nobody was arrested because of that.
14 I know one thing, that he would always park that in front of
15 husband house in Olokov Polje. I mean, if he had at least repainted the
16 vehicle, changed the colour of the vehicle so that it wouldn't be obvious
17 that it blocked to the international forces. However, he left it exactly
18 the way it was. He was really sure and had the confidence that are
19 nobody would do anything about it, or he knew that he was enjoying police
20 immunity. I know that they sent about 50 policemen from Zenica to bring
21 him in.
22 I'm giving you this information that he told me himself, and I
23 also heard it from other Mujahedin. You can imagine 50 police officers
24 going to arrest one single person.
25 When they reached his house, they knocked nicely as if they were
1 guests. So it's not treatment of a person who was supposed to be
2 arrested but they came as guests. He opened the door and he said, "What
3 do you want from me?" They looked at him, they stretched -- they pointed
4 to the vehicle, and they said that the soldiers of the international
5 forces complained that he had seized their vehicle and that they demanded
6 the authorities -- that the authorities arrest the person and that the
7 vehicle be returned to them.
8 So they asked him to go with them to the police station in
9 Zenica. He responded impolitely, and he said, "Let me show you
10 something." He went into the house and came out in a few seconds with a
11 rifle in his hand, and they all hid wherever they were able to hide,
12 behind anything, whether it was some kind of object or a car.
13 In any case, what I want to say is that those 50 policemen
14 returned to Zenica, and they were allegedly not able to arrest him. So
15 there's the question of why. I believe that they were enjoying police
16 immunity and that they had protection.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated] [indiscernible].
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a few questions for you, sir. Now when the
19 Prosecutor asked you questions this afternoon, he started off by asking
20 you if you ever became a member of the El Mujahid Detachment at any
21 stage. Your answer was that you were a member before the El Mujahid
22 Detachment was formed. Did I hear you correctly?
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question to you is: After it was formed, did
25 you ever become a member?
1 A. No, I was not a member of the detachment, but Zubeir's unit and
2 the Mujahedin Detachment were cooperating.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now, let me ask you for clarification about
4 a point that you discussed. Yesterday you were shown a clip of the
5 church in Guca Gora with people, soldiers, inside. Remember that?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I just want to confirm with you that am I
8 right that I heard you say yesterday that the condition in which that
9 church was as it was being shown in the clip, it was before it was
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, today you were asked a question by
13 Judge Lattanzi, and in her question she mentioned that the general who
14 stopped the destruction of that church succeeded. I'm not quite clear.
15 Was the church successfully saved from destruction or was the
16 church destroyed?
17 A. It was saved from -- or spared from destruction.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: So when you said yesterday that you were seeing
19 the church on the clip was before its destruction, what did you mean?
20 A. I meant that it was from the inside, the furniture. When I saw
21 it the church was neat. And also in the footage that was shown to me by
22 Mr. Mundis was neat. After that, the church was destroyed from the
23 inside. I'm thinking about the objects and the furniture that was inside
24 the church. When I say that the church was spared from destruction after
25 the conversation with Mehmed Alagic, it means that it was spared from
1 being blown up.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The building was spared. That's what you meant.
3 A. Yes, just had building.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That explains it.
5 Today you -- I don't know whether this is maybe an interpretation
6 matter, but I heard in the interpretation that -- a word called Taguts
7 was used. I just wanted to find out what Taguts are.
8 A. Yes. The Tagud [phoen] rules referred to any rules that are not
9 in keeping with Islamic rules. Actually, what is being said is that they
10 would only respect Islamic rules, regardless of whether it was in
11 conditions of war or not.
12 As for the other rules, even though they may be valid, they would
13 not be accepted and would -- would not wish to know about them.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You told us that you were tried for allegedly
15 saving people and ordering your soldiers not to kill prisoners of war,
16 and other things. Are you aware of any other soldiers in the
17 El Mujahedin who were prosecuted by the El Mujahid court for any crimes
18 or irregularities that they may have committed?
19 A. I know only about the case of Iraqi Abduladim Maqtouf. He was
20 sentenced before the state court. I don't recall exactly whether it was
21 in 2005. But in any case, I think that the court did not reach a real
22 decision or proper decision about him, because this was a person who was
23 not guilty. From 2003, I gave several statements about the crime for
24 which Abduladim Maqtouf was convicted. So they did not convict the
25 person who actually perpetrated the crime. They convicted the person who
1 had nothing to do with the crime.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure, but that was a state court. It was not an
3 El Mujahid court, an al-Qaeda court.
4 A. Oh, yes. Excuse me. Then I misunderstood what you said. You're
5 thinking about al-Qaeda and its courts.
6 I think that there were several other men who were detained. In
7 al-Qaeda rules, any soldier who belongs to al-Qaeda, and even if he does
8 not belong to al-Qaeda but is among al-Qaeda people, if he does something
9 that does not suit them, they would punish him. If he does something
10 major that al-Qaeda could not overlook, then he would have to be
12 I know that there were two or three other people who were
13 detained, imprisoned.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: During the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
15 A. Yes, during the war.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And very briefly, are you able to tell us
17 what they were accused of having committed?
18 A. I don't know myself specifically what.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I still have a few
20 questions. I realise we have gone beyond quarter past. I'm not quite
21 sure how long the questions from the counsel is going -- are going to be.
22 Is it possible that we could go on for a little long while -- a little
23 while longer, or shall we adjourn to tomorrow? Are you likely to be
25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I believe the Prosecution
1 will have anywhere from three to five questions, which hopefully if we
2 can get brief answers to shouldn't take too long.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic?
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Same applies to me, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'll ask that the interpreters please bear with
6 us. Maybe we might just finish today.
7 You said you were sentenced to 20 days imprisonment for what you
8 were tried for by the al-Qaeda court. Were you in prison for 20 days?
9 A. I think I spent a bit longer there. Maybe 27 days. I was not
10 freed from prison, actually. I escaped.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I would like to clear one other point.
12 This is my last point that I would like to clear.
13 In the questions that were put to you by Judge Harhoff, I heard
14 you say that if -- if there were 300 or even a thousand El Mujahid --
15 Mujahedin soldiers, the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina should and could
16 have been able to prevent them or to publish them or to contain their
17 crimes. Did I hear you correctly to say that?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I also heard you say, for instance, that the
20 military police could not -- and this may be a question of
21 interpretation. What I heard was could not do anything with crimes that
22 were being committed, and you gave as one of the examples the soldier who
23 confiscated a car, and you said 50 police went to his house and they
24 could not do anything.
25 Is it that they could not do anything, or was it because they
1 didn't want to do anything?
2 A. When I said that the B and H army was able to prevent the
3 Mujahedin from doing what will they did during the war, I always am
4 thinking about the high-ranking officers. I'm thinking of the political
5 and military leadership.
6 When I mention police or military police, that they couldn't do
7 anything in relation to the Mujahedin, I said that the police seemed not
8 to have the authority to do anything against the Mujahedin. And what I
9 meant to say by that is that those who were in the military leadership
10 did not allow the police to do its work in relation to the Mujahedin.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That concludes my questions.
12 Any questions arising from the questions by the Bench?
13 Mr. Mundis.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Just a few.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Mundis:
16 Q. In response to a question from the Presiding Judge, you indicated
17 that there may have been a small number of other cases heard before the
18 Mujahedin court or courts, and my question to you, sir, is do you recall
19 the approximate time period of those other small number of cases that you
20 were aware of?
21 A. This was in 1992.
22 Q. Sir, you also mentioned in response to a question by
23 Judge Harhoff several times in explaining an answer an individual named
24 Sead Brkic. Can you tell us, sir, what unit Sead Brkic commanded?
Not Sead Brkic but Sead Urkic.
Sead Urkic, or from what he told
1 me, was a major, and he was heading a special unit in the 3rd Corps. He
2 was close to General Sakib Mahmuljin. And his unit always participated
3 in the attacks in which we participated, the Zubeir unit.
4 Q. And this instance where you saw these two trucks at a
5 check-point, do you recall approximately when that was?
6 A. Which area are you thinking? Are you thinking of the time maybe,
7 if it was light or dark or -- what are you thinking of exactly?
8 Q. If you can give us the approximate day or month or year when --
9 when you were at this check-point where you saw these two trucks.
10 A. This was in 1995, and I really do not remember the date, the
11 month, but I think that it was before the end of 1995.
12 Q. And would it help had you, sir, if you could put it into the
13 context of any military operations that you may have been involved in in
14 1995? Was it before any combat operation that you remember, or after any
15 particular combat operation?
16 A. This was after the Paljenik and Gradic locations were captured.
17 The whole Vozuca was occupied then.
18 Q. Mr. Hamed, in response to a question from Judge Harhoff, you made
19 reference to -- or you were asked about the Geneva Conventions, and I'm
20 just wondering, sir, if at any time when you were a soldier or a fighter
21 in the war in Bosnia if you ever saw a Bosnian language publication
22 called "Instructions to the Muslim Fighter."
23 A. I never saw that, no.
24 Q. And my final question to you, sir, again in response to it a
25 question from the Bench, you answered that the leaders of the Mujahedin,
1 the foreign Mujahedin, attempted to conceal their links to al-Qaeda, and
2 my question really is, if you know, how many of the foreign Mujahedin
3 were al-Qaeda members? Was it all of them, some of them, a few of them,
4 a majority of them?
5 A. No. It was a minority of them. Mostly this refers to people who
6 were in important positions in the Mujahedin forces. And it also refers
7 to a small number of fighters who also participated in the fighting in
9 Q. Can you be more specific, sir, in terms of numbers when you say a
10 small number of people? Can you -- can you be more specific as to how
11 many of the foreign Mujahedin were -- were al-Qaeda members?
12 A. I'm not able to specify, because we ourselves as al-Qaeda members
13 cannot easily know about each other unless a common assignment is at
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hamed.
16 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
18 Madam Vidovic.
19 Further cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I only have a few questions for you.
21 During your testimony, you mentioned seeing a person, Abid Ash Shargi,
22 killing a Serb soldier. Did I understand you correctly?
23 A. I didn't see it, but I was told by his soldiers that he slit the
24 throat of the Serb after he was killed.
Abid Ash Shargi was actually the deputy of Abu al Zubeir. Am I
2 A. Yes, you're right.
3 Q. Let me now ask you something about the corpses that you said you
4 saw in the trucks. You remember that?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. You don't know whether those people were killed in battle or were
7 captured and then killed. Am I right?
8 A. I don't know that. Yes, you're right.
9 Q. Would you agree with me that those trucks were not something that
10 you saw in the El Mujahid camp or anywhere near it even?
11 A. No. I know that these two trucks were heading towards
12 Zavidovici. I don't know where.
13 Q. Do you know what the 13th kilometre is?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you know where the El Mujahedin camp was during this period?
16 A. Yes, I know, but I never went there.
17 Q. Do you know the location roughly?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Will you tell us how far these trucks were from the camp in terms
20 of distance?
21 A. I assume about 15 or so kilometres. I see.
22 Q. Did I understand you correctly when you mentioned Sead Urkic that
23 you said that he did not take part in that operation?
24 A. He took part as a commander. He was issuing orders to his units
25 from Zavidovic, similar to what Zubeir was doing.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, briefly I have to show
2 this witness a document. 351, please.
3 Your Honours, this is page 2 of the English version in this
4 document, and the relevant passage starts from the fifth line, roughly,
5 of this text.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]... at 351.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that will be the right
8 page. Yes, we see it on the screen now, Your Honour. It is the fifth
9 line from the top, and it starts with the words "My superior ordered
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]... screen is not the
12 same document as we have at 351 in our file.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour. It's 353.
14 I asked for 353. This is the English translation of that document, the
15 one we see on the ELMO. It may be an interpretation error.
16 Q. Witness, will you please read this. Do you agree, Witness, that
17 you're telling us here about the conversation that you had with
18 Mr. Urkic?
19 A. Yes, I agree.
20 Q. Let me quote for you. You said: "My superior ordered this, and
21 I wouldn't listen to anyone but him. 'You have to go into attack
22 immediately.' Because of these words of his I felt insulted, so I
23 decided to respond in the same measure and said I understood but, 'I
24 wouldn't take orders from you or from your Sakib, nor from anyone but
25 from Abu Zubeir.'"
1 You go on and call Sakib and tell him there will be no attack
2 without the presence of the medical unit.
3 So let me ask you once again. Didn't you show here your
4 relationship towards the army?
5 A. That is true.
6 Q. You were not listening to orders from the army on any occasion.
7 A. We need to know the circumstances under which these words were
9 Q. My question is is this true, and the witness says yes.
10 Witness, you spoke to us today about the authorities of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina and their reaction and you mentioned immunity, but in
12 fact, you know nothing about that.
13 A. No. I was just -- I was just thanking you.
14 Q. So you're just speculating, aren't you? You're not aware of
15 these facts. You were not present at such meetings.
16 A. You are not right. If I didn't know what was going on during the
17 war, I certainly wouldn't be here. If I didn't know what was happening
18 during the war, the American FBI would not come to talk to me. If I
19 don't know anything, it's best for me to leave immediately.
20 Q. Witness, please. Were you present at any meeting at which
21 immunity for the Mujahedin was discussed?
22 A. I'm telling you about my conclusions on the basis of everything
23 that was happening. So if I am mistaken, if I do something wrong and
24 nobody punishes me, it means that someone is protecting me. I myself
25 don't know who that is. I would like to know who was responsible for
1 this, because we did all we did and without any punishment.
2 I didn't name anyone. I didn't say such-and-such a person was at
3 fault. I just said that somebody was protecting us.
4 Q. One more question. You told Their Honours why you were taken to
5 the military court and why you were punished.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. But you didn't tell us the whole truth, did you?
8 A. I'm -- if I'm answering one question, do I need to repeat half of
9 what I wrote in my book? Of course I try to answer questions as briefly
10 as possible. I know Their Honours have copies of my book. If you need
11 more information about a particular event, why don't you look it up in my
13 Q. Let me ask you just one more question in this connection.
14 Actually, you were put on trial, among other things there, because you
15 had assaulted a young girl and had sexual intercourse with her, and that
16 is what Dr. Abu Haris reprimanded you for.
17 A. That is not true, and I explained this in my book. If this was
18 so, I wouldn't have mentioned it in my book. Why am I revealing this in
19 my book?
20 I see that you are not aware of what went on during the war.
21 Forgive me, but I was here from the beginning of the war until the end.
22 Perhaps you spent your time in your own home.
23 Q. Would you agree that the father of that child reported the event
24 to Dr. Abu Haris?
25 A. That is not true. I don't know what child you're talking about.
1 I did have a girlfriend, but that wasn't a child.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as this is an
3 important issue, D357, please.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we go to D357, do you -- what do you want
5 to do with D353?
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. Could
7 this be admitted into evidence, please?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: D353 is admitted into evidence. May it please be
9 given an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 347.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: My.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
13 Q. Witness, look at page 06050628. A very small segment somewhere
14 around the middle of this book when you tell -- when you're telling us
15 about the conversation with Abu El Haris during the trial, you say: "He
16 intentionally or unintentionally insulted me when he said that I had an
17 affair as well as sex with a child."
18 That's what I am talking about, Witness.
19 A. Of course I know what I put down in my book. I wrote that text
20 under the heading "I Have Nothing With Amra." And then I went on to
21 explain the real reason for my arrest and to deny that this had happened.
22 Q. In other words, you're telling us that this didn't happen.
23 A. Exactly. That's what I'm trying to explain here.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
25 Q. Let me ask you another question, Mr. Abdali [phoen], because you
1 are Mr. Abdali. Is that true?
2 A. I think you started insulting me. I don't see any reason for you
3 to call me by a name that is not mine, that it doesn't suit me, because
4 you read it in my book. So don't use that name. Please look at my
5 documents and see whether it says Ali or Abdali.
6 Q. Witness, you were born and you lived and you grew up and came to
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina with the name Abdali instead of Ali Ahmad Hamad.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
9 MR. MUNDIS: We've gone well beyond the scope of questions put by
10 Your Honours to this witness.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic?
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the need has arisen in
13 connection with your questions for me to focus once again on the
14 credibility of this witness, and that is my reasoning. If I may -- I may
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think the need has arisen for you
17 to insult me, and I am no longer prepared to answer questions from the
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second, Mr. Hamed.
20 Madam Vidovic, the need may have arisen for you to ask questions,
21 but I think you should stay within the questions arising -- you must ask
22 questions arising from the questions asked by the Bench. I'm not quite
23 sure I understand how the line of questioning that you are now
24 undertaking relates to what the questions -- what the Bench asked, unless
25 you are able to explain it.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it doesn't stem from
2 your questions, and I will stop my cross-examination there. There are
3 other witnesses.
4 Thank you. I have no more questions for this witness.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Madam Vidovic, what do you
6 want to do with D357?
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would
8 like to tender it into evidence.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 This now brings us to the conclusion of -- I beg your pardon.
11 The document 357 is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
12 exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 348.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 Mr. Hamed, thank you. Let me just say that this brings us to the
16 conclusion of your testimony in this court. May I, on behalf of the
17 Trial Chamber, thank you for availing yourself to come and testify. I
18 hope you -- you've -- you feel you have made a contribution to the trial
19 here by coming here, and you are now excused. You may stand down. Once
20 again, thank you very much for coming to testify.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: We have now come to the conclusion of the
24 proceedings pursuant to Rule 4 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence of
25 the International Criminal Tribunal for
1 not be sitting again tomorrow as was anticipated.
2 May the Chamber take this opportunity to gratefully acknowledge
3 the assistance of the Bosnia and Herzegovina State Court, and in
4 particular Ms. Medjita Kreso [phoen], the President of the court;
5 Mr. Tarik Abdulhak [phoen] from Registry; and all other state court
6 officers for enabling a smooth operation of this hearing.
7 While I'm at the point of thanking the state court officials, may
8 I also add that I would like to give Chamber's gratitude to all the
9 people who contributed towards the smooth running of the operation. This
10 includes the security police from Bosnia and Herzegovina and every -- and
11 all other people who were involved. I may not be able to mention them
12 all, but you are all thanked, and thank you so much.
13 That concludes the hearing. Court adjourned.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.44 p.m.