1 Tuesday, 11 September 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered the court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 10.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in the court today.
7 Mr. Registrar, may you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. Good morning, Your Honours. This is
9 case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 May we have the appearances for today, starting with the
13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Good morning, Your Honours, counsel and everyone in and around the
15 Court room. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Laurie Sartorio,
16 assisted today by our intern, Ms. Emma Berry, and our case manager, Alma
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 And for the Defence.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Good
21 morning to my learned friends from the Prosecution and to all those in and
22 around the courtroom.
23 My name is Vasvija Vidovic, and I appear here on behalf of
24 Mr. Delic, together with Mr. Robson, with our assistants, Lejla Gluhic and
25 Asja Zujo.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam.
2 May the witness please make the declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: JOVAN DIVJAK
6 [The witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, sir. You may be seated.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis. Madam Sartorio.
10 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
11 Examination by Ms. Sartorio:
12 Q. Sir, would you please state your full name?
13 A. Good morning to everyone. My name is Jovan Divjak.
14 Q. And what is the date and place of your birth?
15 A. I was born on the 11th of March, 1937, in Belgrade.
16 Q. And where do you currently reside?
17 A. Currently, as well as for the last 40 years, I have resided in
19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not manage to catch the
20 street name.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was the street name where you stay in
22 Sarajevo, sir?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I live in Sarajevo, and I've been
24 living there for 41 years in Logavina Street, number 6.
25 MS. SARTORIO:
1 Q. And what is your current occupation?
2 A. I am retired. I was retired in 1997. Currently, I am the
3 executive director of the association named "Education Builds B and H,"
4 which as of 1994 has been helping children who were victims of war in
6 Q. Now, I'd like you to please briefly describe for the Chamber your
7 military education/training and the positions that you held in the army.
8 A. Having in mind that my mother could not finance the studies I
9 wanted to undertake, in 1956, I went to study at the military academy of
10 the land forces in Belgrade. I completed it in 1959, and I've remained
11 with a unit which was a part of the JNA Guards. For a while in Belgrade,
12 I commanded a platoon.
13 Then I was sent to the School of Foreign Languages that existed
14 within the JNA. In 1962 and 1963, I completed the course in that school.
15 In the meantime, I was with the Tito's Guards.
16 In 1964, in November, I believe, until July 1965, I attended the
17 Command and Staff Academy in Paris, the academy of the French Armed
18 Forces. As of September 1965 until the 1st of February, 1966, I was in
19 Belgrade at the Security Administration.
20 As of February 1966, I performed various duties in Sarajevo in the
21 Centre of Military Schools. For a while, I was a cadet platoon commander;
22 then I commanded a cadet company. And between 1969 and 1971, I completed
23 the Command and Staff Academy.
24 Upon my return to Sarajevo, I commanded the Cadet Battalion there
25 for three years. Later, I was a lecturer at the Tactics Department
1 between 1979 and 1981, 1982. Between 1982 and 1984, I was chief or head
2 of the Tactics Department. As of October 1984, until October 1989, I
3 commanded the Territorial Defence of the Mostar District. From October
4 1989 until the 1st of October, 1991, I was command of the TO of the
5 District of Sarajevo.
6 Towards the end of September, I was removed from that duty of the
7 commander of the TO of the District of Sarajevo, and I was summoned to
8 appear before a military court, since as the district TO commander, I
9 ordered that a part of the equipment, ammunition, and weapons of the TO in
10 Kiseljak municipality be handed over to the police force of that town, the
11 reason being that at the time the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina had
12 decided that combat readiness be raised to a higher level due to the war
13 that was ongoing in Croatia. The police force of that town was poorly
14 equipped before that.
15 The then commander of the TO in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Drago
16 Vukasjevic, initiated the court proceedings. I was sentenced to two --
17 nine months in prison and two years probation.
18 At the beginning of the war, or rather, the aggression against
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the 8th of April, 1992, I was summoned to the
20 Territorial Defence Staff, Bosnia-Herzegovina, where I was offered to
21 become the TO deputy commander for Bosnia-Herzegovina. I remained at that
22 position until the end of 1994.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me interrupt you for a moment, just for
24 clarification, please.
25 Does this mean you did not serve the full nine months' jail
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: So when you were called, were you called out from
4 prison? In April 1992, were you called from prison to come and head the
5 Territorial Defence Staff?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was in Sarajevo in the period
7 between the handing down of the sentence in December -- of the judgement
8 in December 1992 until the 8th of April -- I apologise, December 1991, and
9 until the 8th of April. I was on duty at the Republican Staff of the
10 Territorial Defence. Therefore, in the meantime, there was no order for
11 me to go to the prison to serve the sentence. This prison was -- for the
12 officers of the JNA was located in Nis, in Serbia.
13 On the 8th, I was called by Mr. Stjepan Siber, and he told me that
14 these were historic moments for Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 The cursor doesn't seem to be moving. Should I continue?
16 These were intense moments for Bosnia-Herzegovina, since at that
17 time, the multinational defence was being organised for
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I was asked to join the staff. As envisaged, the
19 commander of the staff was supposed to be Colonel Hasan Efendic, and I
20 accepted to be his deputy -- or rather, Mr. Siber told me that he had
21 accepted to be his deputy, and, "We wanted you to be the third person in
22 charge, and please give it a thought and then let us know what you
24 I remained at the staff during the afternoon --
25 MS. SARTORIO:
1 Q. May I interrupt you? Sorry.
2 A. Certainly.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 Is this 1992 you're talking about?
5 A. I apologise. Yes, the 8th of April, 1992. I am explaining the
6 events as they occurred in the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina
7 Staff at the time.
8 Q. Okay. So from April of 1992, what was -- after April 1992, what
9 was your next position that you held?
10 A. As of April 1992, until the end of 1994, I was deputy commander of
11 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And after 1994, until the 1st of March,
12 1997, I was assistant commander of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina for
13 cooperation with civilian structures.
14 Q. And are you retired now, sir?
15 A. I retired on the 1st of March, 1997, and I am quite content in
16 that situation, I may say.
17 Q. And what was your rank at the time you retired?
18 A. I was a brigadier general.
19 Q. Now, General, in 1993, did you hold another post? Were you
20 appointed to another post?
21 A. No. There was some separate tasks; however, my duty remained that
22 of deputy commander of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina throughout.
23 Q. Okay. But at some point did the -- did the command structure of
24 the army become reorganised?
25 A. For the initial fortnight, what there was the Territorial Defence
1 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which in May or June was
2 transformed and renamed into the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. As it
3 developed, it saw occasional changes in structure and the way it was
4 organised, starting with the Supreme Command Staff level as well as at the
5 level of the subordinate staffs and commands.
6 We first began with detachments in units. In June and July, we
7 saw the formation of the first brigades; and between September and
8 December of 1992, five corps were formed, and somewhat later the sixth one
9 came into existence.
10 In response to your question, in 1993, there were certain changes
11 in the formation and the establishment of the army, as well as within the
12 staff of the Supreme Command.
13 By way of illustration, I can tell you that the staff, with all of
14 its attached organs, including communications, logistics, et cetera,
15 should comprise over 1.000 people, but its manning strength was never more
16 than 60 per cent of that.
17 Throughout that time until 1994, I was deputy commander, and later
18 on I was appointed assistant.
19 Q. Okay. In 1993, did you become deputy to General Rasim Delic?
20 A. Yes, following a decision of the Presidency. On that occasion, it
21 was confirmed that Mr. Siber and Divjak were deputy commanders. It was
22 then for the first time that the function of the command -- of the
23 commander of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was established in full.
24 Q. Now, I'd like to you briefly tell the Judges, describe for the
25 Judges the organisation of the Presidency in civilian time, how many
1 members and what the election process was.
2 A. The Presidency, before the war, was supposed to be elected, and it
3 comprised seven members; however, the Constitution envisages that in times
4 of war, it can be expanded. The seven Presidency members represented the
5 constituent peoples, meaning that Bosniaks had two representatives, Serbs
6 had two, Croatians two, and the seventh I presumed was from among the
7 other existing peoples in the territory. And during that time, it was
8 Mr. Ganic who at that time declared himself as Yugoslav; therefore, he was
9 not a Bosniak. That was the situation before April 1992.
10 Q. Just a question. Are the seventh -- are the seven members elected
11 by the population?
12 A. Yes. There were elections and they gained the most votes, and
13 such representatives were made members of the Presidency.
14 Q. And was there a president of the Presidency?
15 A. According to the Constitution, the president of the Presidency was
16 elected as the other members, but within the framework of the Presidency.
17 Throughout the war and until after the Dayton Accords, it was
18 Mr. Izetbegovic. He was the president of the Presidency, but he had the
19 same powers as all of the other members of the Presidency did.
20 Q. Was there -- was the president elected by the members of the
21 Presidency or by the population as a whole?
22 A. The members of the Presidency elected him, or rather, the
23 Parliament. But according to the number of votes, they gained elections.
24 The person who gained the most votes was elected.
25 Q. And how long -- what was the tenure of this position?
1 A. According to the Constitution and as far as I know, although I'm
2 not fully versed in that, I believe the tenure was four years, with a
3 possibility of extension.
4 Q. Now, by the time that you became the -- okay, sorry. Excuse me,
5 I'll ask another question.
6 You said that the Presidency during wartime was expanded and
7 included other departments within the government; is that correct?
8 A. According to the Constitution, there was also supposed to be the
9 commander of the Army of BiH, the president of the Assembly, the Prime
10 Minister, and I'm not sure about the Minister of the Interior, but these
11 were the people. In case of need, when certain subjects were being
12 discussed about Bosnia-Herzegovina, upon the decision of the Presidency,
13 other members may have been included as well.
14 Q. And during wartime, what entity or what persons constituted the
15 command, the Supreme Command of the Army?
16 A. The Supreme Command of the Army was the Staff of the Army of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina: This was Delic, his deputies, the staff members and
18 everyone else, if we are talking about the army Supreme Command. However,
19 if we are talking about the commander of the armed forces, who was
20 superior to the both the army and the police, then in that case it is the
22 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just ask, does the Constitution of the
24 Supreme Command change in time of peace? And I'm asking you that question
25 because the question put to you said: "during wartime, what entity or
1 what persons constituted the command, the Supreme Command of the army?"
2 Now, does the Supreme Command of the army change in Constitution during
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the aggression against
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Presidency comprised only seven members, as
6 envisaged by the Constitution. However, on the day the war was declared
7 in Bosnia and Herzegovina in June 1992, then the wartime Presidency also
8 comprised the people I mentioned: The Assembly president, the Prime
9 Minister, the commander, and I believe the Minister of the Interior.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do I understand you to be saying that the
11 Presidency and the Supreme Command are one and the same thing?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As wartime, yes, the Supreme Command
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.
15 You may proceed.
16 MS. SARTORIO:
17 Q. Now, General Divjak, by what date would you -- was the
18 organisational structure of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina functioning and
19 operating, in your opinion?
20 A. Well, opinions vary; but, in my view, it was on the 8th or the 9th
21 of April, 1992, when the TO Staff for the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
22 was founded.
23 Q. And -- I'm sorry. Excuse me. Go ahead.
24 A. And when we conveyed the Presidency's decision to our subordinate
25 staffs on the organisation of the new staff, and when we advised them that
1 there was a process of reorganisation in the Territorial Defence of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, we forwarded that information to the various
3 Territorial Defences, whereby it was accepted by 73 municipal TO staffs in
5 Q. So, in 1992 and the first half of 1993, the army was carrying out
7 A. The word "operation" is a strategic term. The Army of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have the materiel or personnel resources to
9 carry out operations.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt you, sir.
11 Madam Vidovic.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was a particularly
13 leading question. I would kindly ask the Prosecutor to be more careful
14 when putting her questions, but the witness had already answered. First
15 of all, she should have established whether it was operational in terms of
16 function and then perhaps go on to any potential operations.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.
18 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I'll withdraw the question and move
19 on, if I may.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may.
21 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
22 Q. Sir, prior to June of 1993, could you tell us what your duties
23 were on a regular basis?
24 A. Prior to June 1993, as the deputy commander of the Army of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I took part in the planning, organising, and execution
1 of combat operations, first of all, of the Territorial Defence and then of
2 the army, indirectly, of course. I participated in the preparation and
3 drawing up of establishment plans, the organisational structure of the
4 army, and I directly participated in the organisation of the defence by
5 units in Sarajevo initially, and later also outside Sarajevo.
6 Q. Did you attend meetings?
7 A. Well, within the framework of the staff, we had a system that we
8 had introduced, given our experiences in the work of the Territorial
9 Defence in the previous period; namely, we had routine morning briefings
10 to the Administration in the centre. Once a month, we would hold analysis
11 meetings of the realisation of our work plans, that is. We monitored the
12 execution of combat operations, and we had brief analyses of the combat
13 operations, also communicated occasionally to members of the Presidency.
14 The basic problem that we encountered and that we had to cope
15 with, and which we conveyed to the Presidency, was the problem of the
16 materiel support of the defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
17 Q. Now, when you say "we," "We had a system and we met at routine
18 morning briefings," could you please tell us who "we" consist of? Not
19 names, but positions.
20 A. I'm talking about the staff of the Supreme Command of the Army of
21 Bosnia and Herzegovina, which in addition to the commander, who
22 occasionally was present, Mr. Halilovic [Realtime transcript read in error
23 "Karlovic"] at the time, also his deputies, that is Mr. Siber, and the
24 heads of administrations or their desk officers. There were eight
25 administrations. And depending on the situation that we were faced with,
1 we would have some of them present to analyse the situation and analyse
2 the reports that were coming in from the subordinated staffs.
3 According mainly to our orders, subordinated staffs had to send us
4 daily reports on what was happening in the zone of responsibility of the
5 corps. So the head of the Security Administration was there; the
6 Intelligence Administration head; the head of the Logistics; Personnel
7 Administration; the Moral Guidance Administration; and so on and so forth.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.
9 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, just a matter for the record, I noted at
10 page 30, line 5, it states "Mr. Karlovic." The witness stated the
11 commander at that time was Mr. Halilovic.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Robson. I was also
13 wondering what Karlovic wanted. Thank you.
14 You may proceed, Madam Sartorio.
15 MS. SARTORIO:
16 Q. Well, sir, who is Mr. Karlovic? What position did he hold?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Halilovic.
18 MS. SARTORIO: It should read Halilovic. It is not corrected yet,
19 that is why I was wondering if --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's at line 19 to 20.
21 MS. SARTORIO: I see 13.5 as well. It's fine. I just wanted
22 clarification. Thank you.
23 Q. Now, what were matters -- what types of matters were discussed at
24 these meetings? Things that were going on in the field, were those
25 matters discussed?
1 A. That was a routine system. The first item on the agenda was
2 always getting acquainted by the intelligence head of Administration about
3 the combat operations of the aggressor. He conveyed to us later the
4 information that he had received from subordinated staffs; then the
5 operations organ would analyse what the units of the various corps had
6 undertaken and realised, and then the security organ would present their
7 analyses and assessments, and the logistics organs as well.
8 And they would draw their information from the daily reports they
9 received or the information they received directly from their subordinated
10 organs; namely, in addition to the general report which was received from
11 the corps, the Intelligence Administration organ also had its own
12 command-and-control line via which it received information on what was
13 going on. So we received daily information coming from the subordinated
15 Q. During these meetings, was there ever a discussion involving
16 perhaps disciplinary issues involving troops or soldiers and other types
17 of misbehaviour?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, in June of 1993 -- oh, excuse me. One other question: Did
20 President Izetbegovic attend these meetings on a daily basis?
21 A. No. At that time, and we are talking about 1992 and 1993, there
22 was no need for him to attend these analysis meetings at the staff.
23 Q. And why was --
24 A. However, however, I have said that we met at least once a month,
25 the commander, the deputy. Sometimes it would be I, myself. Sometimes it
1 would be Siber. Sometimes Halilovic, as the commander, would actually
2 report, communicate basic data to President Izetbegovic, as the president
3 of the Presidency, and occasionally also to the other members of the
4 Presidency, on the most important issues of the defence of
6 You wanted to ask me I expect why he wasn't present, because he
7 did not attend because he did not need to and it was not his obligation to
9 Q. Yes. And you did say that issues were communicated to him as
10 needed; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, when General Delic became the supreme commander of the army,
13 you were one of his two deputies with General Siber; correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And General Siber is of Croatian ethnic origin; do you know that?
16 A. Yes. That is how he -- what he declared to be.
17 Q. And what is your ethnic origin?
18 A. I am Bosnian; although, this is not recognised under the
19 Constitution. The Constitution of the Federation says that this is a
20 community of Croats, Bosniaks, and others, so it does allow me to be a
22 Q. But you were born in Belgrade; correct?
23 A. Yes. I was born in Belgrade, but that doesn't make me necessarily
24 a Bosnian or a Serbian or an American. I was born there, but my father
25 was a teacher at the time. He hails from Bosnia, the Bosnian Krajina.
1 And the fact that my mother gave birth in a Belgrade hospital doesn't mean
2 anything. I am a Bosnian.
3 Q. I understand that, sir, and I respect that. I guess what I'm
4 getting at is: Was there a reason, was there an intentional placement of
5 certain persons in their positions within the Presidency based on their
6 ethnic origin?
7 A. Well, under the Bosnia-Herzegovina Constitution, that is a state
8 of three constituent peoples, the Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks, or vice
9 versa, so that the government structure also follows that principle.
10 Q. Now, when you became the deputy to General Delic, what were your
11 regular duties?
12 A. When Siber and I, myself, were appointed Commander Delic's
13 deputies, it was just a routine assignment. There was nothing knew. What
14 was knew is that the position of the commander of the Army of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina was introduced for the first time, and the chief of
16 staff as well, to which post was appointed Sefer Halilovic. So Siber and
17 I, myself, were just a continuation of the positions; actually, we
18 continued to hold the post that we held in the first year of the war.
19 Q. Did you attend daily meetings?
20 A. Yes. As part of the Operations Centre, we continued to hold
21 regular meetings. We would meet once a month in the presence of Commander
22 Delic in order to undertake monthly analyses of our work and to ascertain
23 the focus of our tasks, our priority tasks for the forthcoming period.
24 General Delic fully trusted us and asked us to brief us about what
25 had transpired, what had been talked about at all those meetings which he
1 personally did not attend. So, in the long run, there was nothing knew.
2 We changed nothing in the system of monitoring events on the ground in the
3 war theatre in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
4 Q. Well, during these meetings, and your new position, were you ever
5 present when brigade commanders reported?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.
7 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, the question is a leading one. I'd ask
8 the prosecuting counsel rephrase her approach.
9 Thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.
11 MS. SARTORIO: Well, Your Honour, I don't believe it's leading. A
12 leading question would be: "You were not present when brigade commanders
13 reported, were you?" That is a leading question. The question is: "Were
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I expect the objection is to the fact that you're
16 suggesting that brigade commanders did report.
17 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. I'll set the foundation.
18 Q. Sir, what went on at these -- let me just back up. Were these
19 morning -- were these daily meetings?
20 A. Yes. In principle, they were morning briefings, but there were
21 also other times when such meetings were held, especially when the monthly
22 analyses were being undertaken.
23 Q. And were the same types of subjects discussed at these morning
24 briefings as were discussed in 1992 and early 1993?
25 A. In 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, as long as the war lasted, there was a
1 system in place for the morning analyses of what we received from the
2 units. Monthly analyses are another thing.
3 Q. Okay. I'd like to go back to the daily meetings.
4 When were the meetings -- were there meetings where brigade
5 commanders would be reporting?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what was objected against earlier.
7 MS. SARTORIO: I asked were there meetings.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you're suggesting that brigade commanders were
9 making reports.
10 Sir, you've just referred to receiving information from the units.
11 Who gave you the reports from the units? Who presented these reports?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Such information came to us in
13 written form by way of signals, communications equipment, depending on the
14 situation, but it was in writing. That information came to the organs of
15 the staff. So the intelligence organ, for instance, from the 1st or the
16 3rd Corps directly liaised, communicated, with the operations organ in the
17 Supreme Command Staff; and with that information, the representative of
18 the administration or the head of the Security or Intelligence
19 Administration would come to the morning briefings.
20 At such morning briefings, the commanders of the brigades were not
21 present. They did not attend. I'm talking about the internal mechanism
22 of our work within the staff. There were other different meetings --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just follow-up? I just want a very short
24 answer. You said that the information came to you in written form by way
25 of signals. Who wrote this information? Who had signed at the bottom as
1 the author of this information?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we talk about overall
3 information from the 1st Corps, it would be signed by the commander or his
4 deputy. But if we are talking about information reports coming from a
5 specific service, for instance, I referred to the intelligence service,
6 again, the head of the intelligence service from the 1st Corps would send
7 the report to the head of the Intelligence Administration, and he would
8 sign it.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir.
10 Madam Sartorio, you realise that earlier, at page 19, line 11, the
11 witness does say that commanders of brigades did not attend.
12 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Who was present at these meetings, General Divjak?
14 A. I should like to ask you to make a distinction between what I said
15 were morning reporting sessions, morning briefings, and those which took
16 place during the month, or those things which took place in Sarajevo or
17 outside Sarajevo during the month.
18 At these morning briefings, we had officers from the
19 administrations attending, as I said: The Intelligence Administration,
20 the Security Administration, the Morale Guidance Administration, the
21 Personnel Administration, and others. There, reports would be put
22 together which we had to consolidate in order to propose to the commander
23 what moves to make, what steps to take.
24 When the commander was present at these morning briefings --
25 Q. You may finish now, since it's behind. So go ahead and finish
1 your answer, sir.
2 A. So on those days when the commander also attended, and Mr. Delic,
3 that is, he would conclude himself what he has to do. That he did on the
4 basis of our analyses and our proposals. He concluded what each of the
5 specific administrations should do, what the Intelligence Administration
6 should do, what information it should elicit from the units. And he
7 ordered the Logistics Administration head how to handle different
8 problems; for instance, to address the problem of the lack of fuel for the
9 1st Corps. That is the communication that went on at these meetings.
10 Q. Thank you, sir.
11 A. You're welcome.
12 Q. Was there meetings that you attended where you discussed operation
13 and combat activities?
14 A. Unfortunately, at the level of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, no.
15 At the level of the staff, without the presence of the commanders of the
16 subordinate units, we undertook such analyses and proposed the specific
17 solutions to the commander as to how to use the corps units, later
18 divisions. However, when we speak, for instance, about one specific event
19 that I remember vividly, when we were planning how to lift the blockade of
20 Sarajevo in 1995, I was not involved - I don't know why - not to mention
21 some other activities and combat activities outside Sarajevo.
22 Q. Did you feel that your duties changed in any way before -- after
23 June of 1993?
24 A. No. I cannot claim that anything changed much after June,
25 anything specific.
1 Q. Did you attend Presidency meetings?
2 A. Can I please first finish my previous answer, if it is all right
3 with Your Honours?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is all right. You may finish. Thank you, sir.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So even up to June 1993, I had not
6 been fully satisfied. I was not content with the way I was involved in
7 something which was my profession. In fact, I wrote about it to Commander
8 Halilovic, asking him to avail himself of my services more, and I did so
9 on two occasions. On two occasions, actually, I also wrote to the
10 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to Mr. Izetbegovic, on the 9th of
11 May, 1992, and on the 27th of May, 1993, requesting that I be used more.
12 So when you say from June 1993, nothing specific actually changed.
13 You asked me whether I participated at Presidency meetings, sessions.
14 Yes, I did. Every time when Commander Delic was officially absent, absent
15 on official business, and when he empowered me to deputize for him in his
16 absence and to attend the Presidency sessions in that capacity.
17 Q. Did you ever meet with -- strike that. Do you know of any other
18 meetings that were held with General Delic and other members of the
19 Presidency at which you did not attend?
20 A. I apologise. It was not mine to follow, whether General Delic had
21 any other meetings, special meetings. But what was not clear to me was
22 why, except for two times, except for on two occasions, I did not attend
23 the reports by corps commanders which were being carried out, for the most
24 part, outside Sarajevo.
25 Sometimes, in order to actually calm myself, I would think to
1 myself this was probably because it was very difficult to get outside this
2 occupied city of Sarajevo. But I would like to repeat, on this occasion
3 as well, I regret the fact that in the planning of combat operations, when
4 this was being done by the commander with his assistants and other heads,
5 that I never had the occasion to state my mind and to say what I thought
6 could have been of help.
7 I should like to convey here an assessment of General Delic's. I
8 know that this is what he thought, and that was that Divjak was one of the
9 best-schooled officers in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
10 Q. Well, as deputy commander to General Delic, were you involved in
11 any decision-making with regard to military operational matters?
12 A. I apologise to you, but I believe that it is quite clear. It
13 follows from my previous answer, that I wasn't.
14 Q. Were you ever consulted by General Delic on any matters with
15 regard to military operational matters?
16 A. Having assumed the position of commander, General Delic wanted to
17 regulate the relations in the staff, seeking for them to be more
18 functional than previously; therefore, he assigned to me the task, and to
19 General Siber who at the time was a colonel. So he gave us a task to
20 write up the assignments which would have to be carried out by deputies.
21 Siber and I were not completely happy with the fact that Commander
22 Delic only very infrequently asked us for our opinions. I believe that,
23 in fact, General Siber was much more in a position to talk about problems
24 related to the organising of the armed struggle. I do not recall him
25 having ever consulted me in connection with the execution of combat
1 operations, and I can say that the -- that General Delic's idea was that I
2 was to be -- it was his idea that I should be assistant for cooperation
3 with civilian structures. He probably thought me capable of that.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.
5 A. You are welcome.
6 Q. Thank you. Were you ever involved in any discussions or
7 decision-making matters regarding the formation of corps, brigades, units,
8 or other formations? I'm talking about after June of 1993.
9 A. These are technical issues, and we were involved in those; the
10 composition of the corps, the composition of the units, armaments,
11 weapons. There were no problems there, because this process was carried
12 out by the personnel and mobilisation administrations.
13 Q. Were you involved in the discussions regarding the formation of
14 the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?
15 A. No, not directly, but indirectly I will tell you presently: In
16 July 1992, when the setting up of brigades began, it was pointed out that
17 some of those brigades should be designated Muslim brigades. I stated my
18 opinion that that would not be all right, given the fact that this was the
19 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the army of all defenders, not only
20 Bosniaks and Muslims.
21 There had even been ideas to suggest that Serbian brigades should
22 be set up, including in Sarajevo, and I was against that, too. I insisted
23 that really the defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina can be conducted by all its
25 Q. Now, at some point, and I'd like to concentrate now on the time
1 period from June 1993 to the end of the war, did you feel that the ethnic
2 composition of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was changing in any way?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.
4 MR. ROBSON: Again, Your Honour, I object to that. It's a leading
5 question. Obviously, the Prosecution can ask about the ethnic composition
6 at certain periods of time, but this clearly seeking a response.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.
8 MS. SARTORIO: I disagree, Your Honour. That's one of the
9 purposes why the witness is here, to talk about certain things that he
10 wishes to tell the Chamber. If you want me to ask ten questions to get to
11 where -- to this point, I'll do that. But I don't believe it's a leading
12 question. A leading question would be: "Isn't it true that the ethnic
13 composition changed?" I didn't ask that question. I asked him what his
14 belief was.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want his belief or do you want fact?
16 MS. SARTORIO: Both. He can -- he can state his belief, and then
17 he can state upon what his belief is based, if he can do that.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I suppose a question formulated somewhat like: "Did
19 the ethnic composition of the army change at any stage," would be a fair
20 question. But when you say "do you feel," "did you feel," I'm not quite
21 sure whether his feelings here are very apposite here.
22 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll take that suggestion
23 and ask the question -- rephrase the question, if I may.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please, Madam.
25 MS. SARTORIO:
1 Q. General Divjak, given your position in the Army of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina and your participation in the Supreme Command
3 Presidency, did the ethnic composition of the army changed after June of
5 A. It began changing after some five or six months of existence of
6 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Whether someone intended for those
7 changes to occur, I don't know. What I can say is that for a certain
8 while the staff of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in a way was a structure
9 corresponding to the situation in the field.
10 Let me be clear. I do not mean the ethnic makeup as it existed in
11 1991. When we talk about the various elements, for example, the soldiers
12 in the army who were of Serb origin, then I have in mind those who
13 remained in the territory where the majority of the population were
14 Bosniaks. Please bear that in mind.
15 You should also know that many Sarajevo citizens of Serbian and
16 Croatian origin kept telling me and Siber that they remained there because
17 of us, for we represented, we embodied that idea of the multi-ethnic armed
18 force. Percentages vary, whether there were 12 per cent of Serbs and 18
19 per cent of Croats in the staff of the Army of B and H. However, the fact
20 is that until the end of 1993 and early 1994, in high-ranking positions,
21 there were both Croats and Serbs, or rather, there were there up until
22 that time, and there were not after that.
23 There were several explanations for that which I cannot accept.
24 Some tried to explain that a certain number of Croats and Serbs fled to
25 the other side because they were distrustful of the division envisaged by
1 Vance and Owen. They were uncertain of their fate if they remained in the
3 Q. And you did not accept that explanation?
4 A. I cannot accept that for a simple reason, this being that among
5 the soldiers who had deserted from the army, in overall percentage, there
6 were more soldiers of other nationalities and more Bosniaks than Serbs and
8 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, were you involved or do you have knowledge
9 of training of soldiers in Sarajevo in 1992 and 1993?
10 A. Based on the warfare conducted by the partisans, and knowing that
11 it is necessary for any army to have training in place, Sefer Halilovic,
12 on my suggestion, organised training of soldiers and detachment leaders,
13 as well as commanders of the platoons, companies, and up to the level of
14 battalion. The similar thing was done in other corps as well.
15 Q. Excuse me. Can you tell the Chamber what the ethnic composition
16 was of the training -- the population of soldiers who were trained?
17 A. Reflecting the number of Orthodox and Catholic soldiers in the
18 units, that is, Serbs and Croats, I wished that that number had been
19 greater. I can tell you that in April 1993, at the end of the
20 one-year-long training at the Centre for Training in Sarajevo at Bjelave,
21 out of 2.400 soldiers who completed different command courses, among those
22 there were only 15 Serbs and 20 Croats, or the other way around, but that
23 was it. They were the only ones of any other nationality.
24 I advised Commander Halilovic of that. I even sent a letter to
25 the Sarajevo Corps that would stress the fact that attention had to be
1 paid, that a greater number of soldiers of other nationalities, other than
2 Bosniaks, should attend such command courses.
3 Q. Do you know about the Higher Command or Officers' School? Are you
4 familiar with that entity?
5 A. When the forming of the school took place in Zenica, I had no role
6 there. I did, however, appear there twice to lecture. However, in 1995,
7 I participated in the Division command training, and I have positive
8 impressions of that course. The commanders there told me that I was one
9 of the most and best qualified teachers they saw at that brigade
10 commanders course.
11 Q. Okay. Thank you. From 1993 to 1995, do you know the ethnic
12 composition of those soldiers, those potential commanders who attended?
13 A. I can only tell you about the Division commanders course. As far
14 as I can see, it was a uni-ethnic composition of soldiers there.
15 Q. And, please, just what do you mean by "uni-ethnic composition,"
17 A. I mean to say that there were only Bosniaks attending the course.
18 Q. And by "Bosniaks," do you mean Muslims?
19 A. Until August 1993, they were referred to as "Muslims." However,
20 at an intellectual gathering that day, they established that the term
21 "Muslim" is obsolete and that for a hundred years the term "Bosniak" was
22 banned. And they reinstated that term, the term "Bosniak," which was then
23 also included in the Dayton Constitution. The term "Bosniak," however, is
24 not accepted by the other two ethnic groups, that is, Serbs and Croats.
25 Q. All right. And one last question before the break: Do you know,
1 approximately, how many attendees there were at this commanders school
2 during 1993-1995?
3 A. What happened in Zenica at the wartime commanders staff school, I
4 don't know; but at the brigade commanders course, there were 26 or 27.
5 Q. And you don't recall the number for the other schools?
6 A. I had nothing to do with the other schools. I don't know.
7 MS. SARTORIO: That's a good time to take a break, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Given the fact that we started late this morning
9 and we have sort of been thrown out of kilter, our schedule has been
10 thrown out of kilter, we suggest going until 12.00, and then we can back
11 to our normal time.
12 MS. SARTORIO: That's fine. I am going to try to finish today
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 MS. SARTORIO: I am sorry. I thought you said we would break until
16 12.00, and then --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone.
19 MS. SARTORIO: Sorry. What I said was I thought you told me we
20 would take a break until 12.00 and then come back. Okay.
21 Q. We just talked about the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. Do you know
22 who was involved in the formation of that brigade?
23 A. I believe the people who had been thrown out of their homes. The
24 word is "Mujahedin" [as interpreted]. Those were the people who were
25 expelled from the Drina Valley and elsewhere in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Not
1 "Mujahedin," "Mujahid"" [as interpreted], not the "Mujahedin."
2 Q. I'm asking you if you know who was involved in the formation of
3 the brigade.
4 A. I told you who comprised the brigade --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic. Can we just correct that?
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the transcript, perhaps the
7 witness could spell out the word he uttered. He said "Mujahid." The two
8 words "Mujahedin" and "Mujahid" are similar, but perhaps the witness can
9 spell it out for us.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the witness spell the word he pronounced.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] M-U-D-Z-A-H-D-E, if I'm correct.
12 Perhaps I'm wrong. "Mudzahde" or "Muhajid," I don't know. Help me,
13 please. Help me out. "Mudzahir."
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please, can we stop typing this "Mujahid." We are
15 trying to get the correct name. Now, if you keep typing this "Mujahid"
16 next to "Mudzahde," you're causing the confusion even further. It's
17 M-U-D-Z-A-H-D-E; that's what we want.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] M-U-D-Z-A-H-I-R. I think this is
19 it: "Mudzahir."
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: M-U-D-Z-A-H-I-R. Okay. "Mudzahir." Okay. Thank
21 you very much.
22 You may proceed now, Madam Sartorio.
23 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
24 Q. Do you know when this unit was formed?
25 A. I think in early 1993. I'm not sure, though.
1 Q. And do you know who was involved in the formation of this unit?
2 A. It was formed at the level of the corps, the 3rd Corps.
3 Q. And do you know what the purpose was of this unit?
4 A. According to the explanation given, and after the discussion we
5 had at the staff, it was concluded that it was supposed to be an elite
6 unit, to be used at such positions or locations at the front line that
7 were in danger, that were under the most pressure by the opposing party.
8 For me, it also meant that they could provide moral support to the
9 Bosniak people in their defence against the aggressor. I said that these
10 people were refugees. They had been expelled from their century-long
11 homes, and their ultimate goal to all of them was to return to the places
12 they hailed from.
13 Q. Are you aware of any disciplinary problems within this unit?
14 A. Not directly. But on one occasion, the International Committee of
15 the Red Cross, sometime towards the end of 1993 and early 1994, asked to
16 visit one of the facilities, this being the School of Music in Zenica,
17 since they had indicia that some citizens were being detained there,
18 citizens of Zenica.
19 Q. Sir, did you ever receive reports in 1994-1995 with regard to
20 discipline problems in the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?
21 A. During the briefing sessions I mentioned in the morning, the group
22 of us that was in Sarajevo, since the Main Staff of the Army of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina had its forward post in Zenica as well as in Kakanj, in
24 any case, those of us in Sarajevo did not receive any specific information
25 on anything negative that would have to do with any activities of the 7th
1 Muslim Brigade.
2 By way of illustration, in 1993, when Commander Delic, in
3 September, sent me to inspect the 2nd Corps, certain individuals in
4 Zenica, citizens, complained of a degree of pressure exerted by that unit.
5 In the morning, when they would carry out their physical exercise, they
6 would run through a part of the city, yelling "Allahu Akbar." Perhaps it
7 is unimportant or marginal, but this is what I heard about that brigade at
8 the time, and I was told that it caused fear in the part of Zenica where
9 they were.
10 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, I was going to show two videotapes,
11 so I think they're going to take longer than three minutes. If we can
12 break now, I would request that we break now.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at half past
15 Court adjourned.
16 --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Sartorio.
19 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
20 Your Honour, I'd like to show the witness some clips from a
21 videotape, and it's P06028. And I believe that we don't have -- do we
22 have the written transcription of the videotape or -- the translators, I
23 believe, are going to be reading the transcription on their own.
24 [Videotape played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We invite the commander of the 7th
1 Corps brigade, General Mehmed Alagic, to speak."
2 MS. SARTORIO:
3 Q. Witness, could you --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone, please, Madam Sartorio.
6 MS. SARTORIO:
7 Q. Sir, can you identify the persons in this photograph -- this
9 A. The commander of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Rasim Delic; and
10 the commander of the 3rd Corps, Sakib Mahmuljin.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see three people on the picture.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't recognize the
13 third person.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to tell us who is Mr. Rasim Delic and
17 who is Mr. Mahmuljin?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Rasim Delic is wearing a
19 camouflage uniform; whereas, Mr. Mahmuljin has a solid hue wind jacket.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, the picture -- the clothes look the same
21 to me for all three. Maybe if we can say the one on the right, the one on
22 the left, the one in the center, something like that.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person in the middle is the
24 commander of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. To his left and to our right
25 is Sakib Mahmuljin, commander of the 3rd Corps.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
4 [Videotape played]
5 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Salam Alaikum. Fellow soldiers,
6 brothers, Mujahedin, I come to convey congratulations from the soldiers
7 and the officers of the 7th Corps, and from your fellow soldiers. You
8 deserve the name that has been bestowed upon you. You deserved it a long
9 time ago and reaffirmed it, in particular, together with the soldiers of
10 the 7th Corps under conditions incomprehensible to the mind. You jointly
11 achieved victory and freed Vlasic.
12 "Many brothers who have given their lives for Bosnia-Herzegovina
13 gave it for its integrity, its unity, and all those who stand in the way
14 of that will have to reckon with us. Therefore, dear brothers, until our
15 final return, until our final victory, Salam Alaikum.
16 Q. Sir, can you tell us who is giving that speech?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just interrupt a little bit? At the
18 beginning of this clip, I heard the interpreter translate something and
19 mention certain words which are not on here. Who was he greeting? We
20 would like to know who he was greeting.
21 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. Okay.
22 Q. Sir, do you know what this video clip is about?
23 A. It was a commemoration, a function of one of the units. I don't
24 know which one. He greeted the commander of the 7th Corps, Mr. Mehmed
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: There's the 7th Corps and yet another name. If we
2 could go back to the beginning of that clip, please, just that first
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry. It's not the 7th Corps, but
5 the commander of the 7th Corps who addressed the unit.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. If we can go back to the
7 beginning of the clip, please, I would like to hear the first sentence in
8 the clip, the translation thereof.
9 [Videotape played]
10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We invite the commander of the 7th
11 Corps Brigade, General Mehmed Alagic, to speak.
12 "Salam Alaikum. Fellow soldiers, brothers, and the Mujahedin..."
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the transcript reflects
15 what we can hear on the recording, that the man says that, "We invite the
16 commander of the 7th Corps"; whereas, here we have "the 7th Corps
17 brigade." It is not correct. Lines 5 and 6 are incorrect. Perhaps we
18 can replay the footage.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we replay the footage, please.
20 [Videotape played]
21 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We invite the 7th Corps Brigade,
22 General Mehmed Alagic, to speak." Brigadier general.
23 "Salam Alaikum. Fellow soldiers, brothers, and Mujahedin, I came
24 to convey sincere congratulations from the soldiers and officers of the
25 7th Corps, and from your fellow soldiers."
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The only word missing is
2 "and" between "soldiers" and "Mujahedin."
3 MS. SARTORIO: So I would like to ask the witness if he knows.
4 Q. Again, can you describe what this event was, if you know?
5 A. I don't know what this was about. It was a celebration of sorts
6 in a unit; and, from the footage, I concluded that it is the 7th Muslim
7 Brigade. However, before seeing it, I had no knowledge of it, of what
8 this event was about.
9 When the 7th Corps commander is mentioned, as I said, he addressed
10 the 7th Muslim Brigade on their behalf. We are talking about the 7th
11 Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Mr. Alagic.
12 Your Honour, you also used the word "Mujahedin," but they are not
13 "Mujahedin." They are "Mudzahirs," meaning refugees, people driven from
14 their ancestral homes. It has nothing to do with the word "Mujahedin,"
15 nothing whatsoever.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a problem with that explanation, Mr. Divjak.
17 I thought I heard from the B/C/S expressly that you used the word
18 "Mujahedin" and not "Mudzahir." Did you attend this occasion?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. But I do believe that he said
20 "Mudzahir" and not "Mujahedin."
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We believe the speaker said
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: And we can play the tape again if you want to hear
24 that word. You see, the problem is that you are being asked to explain if
25 you know what the occasion was, not to rewrite the script. Remember not
1 to try and rewrite the script.
2 For the sake of the witness, maybe that clip should be played
4 [Videotape played]
5 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Fellow soldiers, brothers, and
6 Mujahids, I come to convey sincere congratulations from the soldiers and
7 officers of the 7th Corps."
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 Did you hear that, Witness?
10 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in our language, the
12 word "Mujahid" and "Mujahedin" do not mean the same. "Mujahid" means
13 "guest." A Mujahedin is a member of an Arabic unit. "Mujahid," however,
14 is a refugee. This is very important to us, and I can stand corrected, if
15 I am mistaken, by the witness or by the interpreters.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if he were to address
18 a group of Mujahedin, he would put the accent in the wrong -- in a
19 different place.
20 MS. SARTORIO: Excuse me, Your Honour. I object to, again, Madam
21 Vidovic is testifying and educating -- allegedly educating Your Honours.
22 If she wants to bring in someone to clarify different terms, that's one
23 thing; but to stand here and to discuss this with Your Honours is another.
24 We will have the tape enhanced, Your Honours, for another witness,
25 and we'll replay it, and at this point move on. The word is what it is.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have any response, Madam?
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what is entered in the
3 transcript should be correct. I'm asking for the correct version to be
4 entered, and that is "Mujahid" rather than "Mujahedin."
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are telling us, Madam, what various words mean
6 in B/C/S: "Mujahid," "Mujahedin," and "Mudzahir." Now, there are three
7 words here, and I think you need a witness to clarify that.
8 I think I'm going to uphold the objection. I was about to rule
9 you out of order when your learned friend stood up. You can call a
10 witness to come and tell us that or you can ask this witness, and we can
11 play this tape clip until everybody -- is it possible? You said you are
12 going to enhance it, ma'am. How long does it take?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second, sir, just a second.
15 MS. SARTORIO: Well, I'm not sure, Your Honour. We may be able to
16 do it overnight. Certainly, we'll try to do it before this witness is
17 excused, since he will be on the stand for at least another day.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much.
19 MS. SARTORIO: So can we start that speech again so we can hear it
20 from the beginning, please? From the beginning.
21 [Videotape played]
22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We invite the commander of the 7th
23 Corps, Brigadier-General Mehmed Alagic, to speak."
24 "Salam Alaikum. Fellow soldiers, brothers, and Mujahids, I came
25 to convey sincere congratulations from the soldiers and officers of the
1 7th Corps, and from your fellow soldiers. You deserve the name that has
2 been bestowed upon you. You deserved it a long time ago and reaffirmed
3 it, in particular, together with the soldiers of the 7th Corps under
4 conditions incomprehensible to the mind. You jointly achieved victory and
5 freed Vlasic.
6 "Many brothers who have given their lives for Bosnia and
7 Herzegovina gave it for its integrity, for its unity. All those who stand
8 in the way of that will have to reckon with us. Therefore, dear brothers,
9 until our final return, until our final victory, Salam Alaikum.
10 MS. SARTORIO: Now I would like to play a second clip from this
11 video, please.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Sartorio.
13 MS. SARTORIO: Oh, sorry.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Before we leave this clip, could we have some
15 indication as to who General Alagic is addressing himself? It would
16 appear that it would be members of the 7th Corps, but I believe that at
17 some point it was suggested it was members of the 7th Muslim Brigade.
18 Maybe the witness can help us out here.
19 MS. SARTORIO: The witness is -- I believe the witness stated that
20 in the beginning, but if he is willing to state the answer. Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I stated that I will
22 speak the truth. Therefore, I believe what I said, when I made the
23 distinction between "Mujahedin" and "Mudzahir," should be recorded.
24 "Mudzahir" is a person or family driven from his, her, or their
25 ancestral home. I explained that the members of this brigade, for the
1 most part, were young men who had been expelled, for the most part, from
2 the Drina Valley. The commander who addressed the gathering, the unit -
3 and I now know what unit it is; however, I did not before seeing the
4 footage - addressed the 7th Muslim unit, which on that day was renamed the
5 Chivalrous Brigade because of the results it achieved during the defence
6 struggle in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
7 Mr. Alagic is commander of the 7th Corps. He conveyed
8 congratulations on behalf of the units of the 7th Corps, and he thanked
9 the 7th Muslim Brigade for having helped them in taking over an elevation,
10 this being Mount Vlasic, which was of tactical and strategic importance.
11 Thank you.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: So can I just clarify a bit here?
13 This would seem to imply that members of the 7th Muslim Brigade,
14 under the 3rd Corps, would have assisted troops of the 7th Corps in
15 freeing Mount Vlasic? Is that the correct interpretation?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question, please: This
19 7th Muslim Brigade, was it included in the 7th Corps? Was it part of the
20 7th Corps?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It was part of the 3rd Corps.
22 However, when the units of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina would undertake
23 an attack, they would join certain formations. During the attack on
24 Vlasic, the 7th Corps units and the 7th Muslim Brigade from the 3rd Corps
25 took part jointly. They both achieved the victory.
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
3 MS. SARTORIO: Any further questions from the Bench right now?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for conducting the proceedings.
5 MS. SARTORIO: Sorry, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I might as well ask my question at this
8 You told us, sir, that the Mudzahir were refugees who had been
9 expelled from their homes in the Drina Valley, and you said that they were
10 an elite unit who were used on the front line. What qualified them to be
11 used on the front line; the fact that they were expelled?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was their driving force. In the
13 area where they were fighting, that area remained defended. They were the
14 best equipped and armed unit. They were well trained. However, just like
15 the other brigades, they had no heavy weaponry.
16 They were very good at infiltrating in the rear of the aggressor
17 to carry out sabotage strikes, thus achieving almost the same result as
18 those units which enjoyed artillery support. They had a reputation, that
19 unit, because wherever they appeared, they assisted greatly in
20 successfully carrying out combat tasks. I know that during a critical
21 period --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that. All I wanted to hear, and
23 you've explained it, was what was the criterion or criteria for their
24 choice as elite staff. From your earlier testimony, I was left with the
25 impression that the only qualification was because they were refugees, but
1 now you've explained that they were highly trained.
2 Now, was this specialised training given only to the refugees from
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That unit had other men from
5 Zenica, Bugojno, and all parts of the territory gravitating towards
6 Zenica, but most of them were refugees from the Drina Valley, as far as I
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the other people from other parts of Bosnia who
9 didn't come from Drina were not refugees, necessarily?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. For example, if we are talking
11 about the 1st Corps --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no. Wait a minute. We're talking about this
13 corps, this unit, this unit, the Mudzahir. You're saying it was composed
14 of people from other areas like Zenica, and I'm asking you, very simply,
15 whether other people from other areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina who didn't
16 come from the Drina Valley, were they also refugees or not? That's what I
17 want to know. If you say "yes" or "no," you will satisfy me.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were people from other areas,
19 not only from the Drina Valley.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that, sir. Can I cut you short?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But those who were refugees from
22 Banja Luka --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't bother --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question simply is: Were there people from
1 other areas, from Zenica and other areas, who formed part of the Mudzahir,
2 were they also refugees? Just say "yes" or "no," sir.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: So this whole unit was composed of refugees?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Not all of it. Part of it.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I just asked you whether other people from
7 other regions were refugees, and you said, "Yes."
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and I maintain that.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then if the people from Drina Valley were refugees
10 and people from other areas were also refugees, then the entire area was
11 refugees, was composed of refugees. It must follow logically.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is not what I
13 said. I said that in that unit, there were refugees from Banja Luka as
14 well, and that there were also soldiers, citizens in that unit hailing
15 from the environs of Zenica. In that brigade there were also Croats and
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: And my question to you simply was: These people
18 from the environs of Zenica, were they refugees like the people from Banja
19 Luka and the Drina Valley? And what is your answer to that, sir?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will repeat what I've already
21 said. There were also refugees from other parts of the country as well.
22 That part around Zenica, which was controlled by the Croatian Defence
23 Council, they had been expelled, and some of them made their way to that
24 brigade. I don't know what the percentage was.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I'll ask you the very question I asked you
1 right in the beginning: Was this Mudzahir unit composed entirely of
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was not.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] There's another question I'd like
7 to put to you, Witness, a question related once again to the composition
8 of the 7th Muslim Brigade: Was there another criterion? I'm talking
9 about the composition of the brigade. Were all these people Muslims?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They are representatives of
11 both the Serbian and the Croatian peoples.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In other words, the only
13 criterion for membership of this brigade was that these people were
14 refugees, they had been expelled from their homes, from the regions they
15 hailed from?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact percentage,
17 but I do believe that two-thirds of the unit were refugees. I don't know
18 the exact figures, but I do believe that two-thirds of the unit were
19 people who had been expelled from the Drina River Valley.
20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You're telling us, therefore,
21 that in that unit, there were people who were not refugees. Let's talk
22 about these people. What was the criterion that prevailed, that made them
23 members of this brigade? Why did they become members of this brigade?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could have just simply been
25 mobilised into that unit; namely, the Municipal Defence Secretariat, the
1 Secretariat for the Defence of Zenica, could have assigned to that unit
2 also others who were free to join the 7th Muslim Brigade.
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Sartorio.
6 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
7 Q. Sir, Mr. President asked you a question.
8 MS. SARTORIO: And I'd like to go up to the transcript, if I may,
9 to Judge Moloto's last comment. It's just above the screen. Well, I
10 believe it is page 44, line 2.
11 Q. It says: "Was this Mudzahir unit composed entirely of refugees?"
12 Can you tell us what a Mudzahir unit is?
13 A. That Mudzahir unit, the 7th Muslims unit, was composed mostly of
14 people that had been expelled from the Drina River Valley, from where
15 entire families had been expelled. It was composed of members of the Army
16 of Bosnia and Herzegovina from the general area of Zenica. And as I have
17 said, the Secretariat for National Defence could also assign to that unit
18 others as well; namely, people who were not refugees. So I repeat -- and
19 I also repeat that there had been members of other peoples in that unit.
20 Q. Sir, do you know what position General Alagic held before the
21 current position in the videotape?
22 A. To my recollection, he was the commander of the 7th Operations
24 Q. Now before we go back to the videotape, were you aware of this
25 event prior to viewing the videotape?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You never heard about this ceremony as deputy commander of the
4 A. No.
5 MS. SARTORIO: I'd like to play the next clip, please.
6 [Videotape played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We invite the Emir of the 7th
8 Muslim Chivalrous Mountain Brigade, Mahmut Efendija Karalic, to greet the
10 "In the name of Allah," this was in Arabic, "fellow soldiers, dear
11 guests, and friends -- fellow soldiers, dear guests and friends, Salam
12 Alaikum." Peace be with you.
13 The crowd replies: Peace be with you. "Alaikum Salam."
14 Efendija Karalic: "After all these wonderful words, so many of
15 them, I am at a loss for words. I would like to quote and translate. I
16 quoted a saying from the Qu'ran that I quoted for the first time when the
17 president of the Presidency visited you, but I didn't translate it then,
18 so I will do so today.
19 "The glorious Allah, glory be unto him, says that: 'Perform your
20 duties, and your deeds will be seen by Allah Almighty, his prophet and
21 righteous people.'
22 "This has been confirmed here today. We have been working for
23 over two years, and we are performing one of the most honourable tasks.
24 We are defending our native land. We are defending our faith, our honour,
25 and our dignity. We are defending the innocent. We are defending
1 innocent lives that are endangered simply because they say that Allah is
2 their master and simply because they are Muslims who live in these parts.
3 "That is why it is an honour, especially because it is being
4 bestowed on us this day, the third day of Kurban Bajram, and because the
5 commander of the General Staff, Army General Rasim Delic, is personally
6 present, and because this honour bears the signature of our honorary
7 commander, the president of the Presidency, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.
8 "In the name of that, I congratulate all of you on this important
9 honour, but with a word of caution. The honour is flattering and comes at
10 a much-needed time, but any honour only carries with it more
11 responsibility for us to continue, with Allah's help, to continue as long
12 as our national and military leadership demands it of us, and for as long
13 as there is even one Muslim life that is endangered in these parts.
14 "I hope that with Allah's help, we will live up to this honour and
15 that there will be more awards in this world. But what we hope for the
16 most and what we are fighting for is that Ishala," with God's help, "we
17 will receive the greatest reward from the master of the universe, Allah.
18 Glory be unto him."
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we get the number of this clip, ma'am? The
20 first one was P06028.
21 MS. SARTORIO: It's all the same videotape, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it?
23 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. And there is one more speech by General
24 Delic, and then we will ask that this be put in evidence.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: I was unsure about the identity of the gentleman
3 who spoke on the second clip here.
4 MS. SARTORIO:
5 Q. Do you know who was this last -- this speaker just now?
6 A. I don't know the man and I didn't attend that, but it can be seen
7 from the announcement who that was.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.
9 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I was going to make this point when it
10 came to -- when the point came to admit the video, but I'll ask it now.
11 We're asking a lot of questions about identity, and it would be useful if
12 my friend, the Prosecutor, could try and ascertain the time frame of this
13 videotape. If that could perhaps be established with the witness, that
14 would be grateful.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.
16 MS. SARTORIO: I will ask the witness, Your Honour, but there will
17 be other witnesses to speak to this videotape.
18 Q. Sir, do you know when this event or this ceremony was held?
19 A. No, I don't. I don't.
20 Q. And the first time that you were aware of this ceremony was when,
22 A. This is the first time I hear of it.
23 Q. Well, did you see this tape in proofing two days ago, sir?
24 A. Well, yes, that too, yeah. Are you playing games with me? If I
25 were to say you had already shown it to me, yes, I've seen it, but this is
1 the first time I officially see it. I said that my goal was to establish
2 the truth. Yes. I have seen it before, in your office, but this is the
3 first time that I am officially shown it.
4 So, Your Honour, yes, I have seen this video clip before in the
5 Prosecution's premises. Well, I apologise, anyway. There is no reason
6 for me to be brought into an embarrassing situation.
7 MS. SARTORIO:
8 Q. I'd also like to, I believe -- Do you know what -- the
9 transcript, at page 47, line 7, said "Kurban Bajram." Is this the correct
10 phrase? Do you know what this means?
11 A. It is a religious holiday, a Muslim religious holiday. Its name
12 is "Kurban Bajram," and it is tradition. I am, of course, myself an
13 atheist, but this is a traditional day when the Muslims dedicate
14 themselves to the Almighty, and with great -- celebrated by the Muslims
15 with utmost attention and devotion. It is the custom, during the Kurban
16 Bajram, for neighbours to -- the Muslims bring to their friends and to
17 their names the so-called "Kurban," which is sheep meat, which really
18 makes a very good dish when you combine it with cabbage. But this is a
19 Muslim religious holiday.
20 MS. SARTORIO: Now could we watch the third clip, please.
21 [Videotape played]
22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The present guests and the 7th" --
23 "following that," sorry, "the commander of the General Staff of the army
24 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Rasim Delic, addressed the honourable ranks of the
25 7th Muslim Chivalrous Mountain Brigade and all present."
1 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I would ask the tape to be stopped,
2 because I would like to go back and bit a ask the witness to look at all
3 the persons in the videotape and to identify all the persons he is able to
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the tape be played.
6 [Videotape played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Following that, the commander
8 addressed the honourable ranks of the 7th Muslim Chivalrous Mountain
9 Brigade and all present."
10 MS. SARTORIO:
11 Q. Can you identify these persons?
12 A. The man with the glasses, Sulejman Vranj, he was the head of the
13 Personnel Administration. This other person was a commander. I cannot
14 recall his name. For a while, he was the commander of the 7th Muslim
16 Q. I'd like to know who was standing -- the second person -- well,
17 can you tell us, for the purpose of the record, which person -- the person
18 in the blue is whom?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam Sartorio. I don't see a blue colour
21 MS. SARTORIO: Sorry.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you start with the first person who's just
23 disappearing and go back?
24 MS. SARTORIO: That's what I'd like to do.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine.
1 MS. SARTORIO: That's what I intended to do, but the person who --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: However, don't use colour, but use the position of
3 the person in the row.
4 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. We have to start again from the beginning.
5 It's very fast, but we have to stop it right away.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: And --
7 [Videotape played]
8 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Following that..."
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The same introductory
10 remarks as before.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So this man who is holding his cap,
12 this is the head of the Administration for Personnel and Mobilisation and
13 Organisational Affairs. His name is Sulejman Vranj. He was at the Main
14 Staff throughout all that time.
15 In the center - but bear with me, I'm not quite sure - in the
16 center, for a while, this person was the commander of the 7th Muslim
17 Brigade, I believe from its very establishment.
18 MS. SARTORIO: Can I just, before you establish the time frame, so
19 we can get it on the record, of this video, which is 3.46.1 -- 00:03:46:1.
20 Thank you.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know the name of the former commander of
22 the 7th Muslim Brigade, the man in the black dress in the middle?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just remember this very minute.
24 His name was Brzina. It takes some remembering after 15 years.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
2 The next one is the commander of the 7th Corps, and he spoke just
3 a while ago, as we saw. That is Alagic.
4 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, we would ask we start with the first
5 person in the video, and I believe it's backwards.
6 Q. The person who's holding the brown notebook or briefcase, that is
7 the first person you named, Sulejman Vranj; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. SARTORIO: I think it's clear now. Is it clear to Your
10 Honours? The witness went backwards, Your Honour. Instead of starting
11 with the right and moving left, he started at the left and moved right.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: We've got a different problem, or at least I do.
13 I see you. I don't see these people that you are talking about.
14 Okay. Fine. Now I'm with you. Thank you.
15 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. So now can we -- can we proceed just slowly
16 too. If there are other people on the tape, we'll just ...
17 [Videotape played]
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Stop.
19 MS. SARTORIO:
20 Q. Sir, who is the person with the beret, if you know?
21 A. Mr. Halid Cengic.
22 Q. And can you identify the person next to him in the vest, or do you
23 need to see it further?
24 A. I don't know that person.
25 [Videotape played]
1 MS. SARTORIO: Sorry. Can we go back, Your Honours, just a bit?
2 It's only a second, but it will need to pause.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MS. SARTORIO: Stop, please.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MS. SARTORIO: Stop, stop.
7 Q. Are you able to identify anyone else in this photograph?
8 A. The man in the robe is the reis ullema, Effendi Ceric, the first
9 one to my left or the first one to your right.
10 Q. Can you tell us what is a -- what you mentioned, a "reis." I'm
11 looking for it in the transcript.
12 THE INTERPRETER: It's "ullema."
13 MS. SARTORIO:
14 Q. Can you tell us what a "reis ullema" is?
15 A. It's the supreme, religious minister in the religious community.
16 Just like General Delic was in the army. The reis ullema is the supreme
17 leader in the community.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio, if you could control your witness
19 to please go in a particular order. Now, he's been telling these people
20 starting from our right. He jumped to the man in the suit. He's now
21 telling us about the man in the robe. We're not going to know who's who
23 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour.
24 Q. The person with the beret, I believe, did you identify him as
25 Cengic; is that correct, sir?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then the person next to Mr. Cengic, standing there with his
3 hands folded in front of him, in a vest, can you identify this person?
4 A. I said, "No."
5 Q. And then the next, the person next to him, in the suit, are you
6 able to identify this person?
7 A. No, I'm not.
8 Q. And then the person next to him is the reis ullema?
9 A. Effendi Ceric.
10 MS. SARTORIO: I'd like to put this time of this into the record,
11 Your Honours, 00:03:52:7.
12 May we proceed, Your Honour?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, by all means.
14 [Videotape played]
15 MS. SARTORIO: Well, perhaps if we can go on. I'm not sure we can
16 stop it at that second.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sure you can. It goes for a long time
18 before --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It can be stopped. Just go back.
21 [Videotape played]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Stop.
23 [Videotape played]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Proceed. Do what you can do.
25 [Videotape played]
1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "First of all, I'm duty-bound to
2 convey to you in this place the greetings from the president of the
3 Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and your honorary
4 commander, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, who was not able to come here from
5 Sarajevo and attend this ceremony, but he is always with you, and you can
6 count him as a participant in these ceremony's proceedings.
7 "I'm also greatly honoured, during these festive days, to be able
8 to congratulate the 7th Muslim Brigade for the honour of bearing the name
9 'Chivalrous.' Our circumstances have arisen so that we may, during these
10 days of the Bajram, when all the Muslims in the world are celebrating the
11 most important holiday, give one of our most elite units this name, which
12 it has deserved by virtue of its combat action so far in the defence of
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Bosniak Muslims.
14 "The title 'Chivalrous' is only a stimulus for the future
15 engagement of both this unit and other units on the territory of the
16 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Up until yesterday, we asked you to
17 participate in the defence of the Bosnian Muslim people and Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina, and thank God that this task has been accomplished.
19 "Now we have other tasks to accomplish. You, who as of today are
20 knights, a chivalrous brigade, must be the honour and pride of our
21 liberation struggle, for we have embarked on the liberation of our
22 occupied territories, and only our strength and our motivation and our
23 commitment can bring us what we seek. As the experience of the past three
24 years has shown us, we cannot expect help from anyone else in any way in
25 this just struggle.
1 "All that remains is a conviction in our own strength, in our own
2 unity, in our own engagement, and that has shown itself up until now as
3 the only right path. Therefore, let the honour that has been rightfully
4 bestowed on you today serve as a stimulus for your further combat, your
5 further engagement in the liberation of the Republic of Bosnia and
7 "I am confident that you will be at the forefront in carrying out
8 your tasks, as you have been up until now, and that you will carry the
9 banner of freedom throughout the territory of the Republic of Bosnia and
10 Herzegovina. In the name of that, in the name of that, I wish you every
11 success in combat, and many battle the results for the benefit of the
12 Bosnian Muslim people."
13 MS. SARTORIO: That was the end of the clip that we intended to
14 show, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The only problem is that we
16 didn't get to know who the other people are that were supposed to be
18 MS. SARTORIO: Well, perhaps if we could go back just a few
19 seconds. There we go. Okay.
20 Q. Okay. Starting with the person on the right, as you're looking at
21 the screen, I believe you identified him in the previous clip. Is that
23 A. If this is the young man with a band, what I said was I could not
24 identify him.
25 Q. No. I'm asking you to start looking -- as you look at the screen,
1 you look at the person on your extreme right, the person in the robe would
2 be white --
3 A. The reis ullema, Effendi Mustafa Ceric.
4 Q. Now, can you identify the person standing next to him, on his
5 right, but it is the next person over?
6 A. No. I cannot recognise -- I do not recognise that person.
7 Q. And the third person is?
8 A. Next to him is Mahmuljin, Sakib Mahmuljin, the commander of the
9 3rd Corps.
10 Q. And can you describe, is Sakib Mahmuljin the person in the middle
11 of these five persons?
12 A. Yes. He is in the center.
13 Q. And is he wearing a belt around his waist or some sort of -- it
14 looks like a belt?
15 A. It is a military soldier's belt.
16 Q. Now, could you identify the person to his right, who is dressed in
17 camouflage uniform?
18 A. That is Rasim Delic, the commander of the Army of Bosnia and
20 Q. And you already testified that you cannot identify the person next
21 to him with the headband; correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I'd like, for the record, to put in
24 the time of this particular picture. It's 00:07:47:9.
25 May I continue, Your Honours?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please.
2 MS. SARTORIO: We are finished with this video. Yes, I would ask
3 it be admitted into evidence, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The clip is admitted into evidence. May it please
5 be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the three clips that we just saw
7 will be Exhibit number 349.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Sartorio, you may proceed.
9 MS. SARTORIO:
10 Q. Sir, are you familiar with the term "Mujahedin"?
11 A. Yes, I am.
12 Q. And in your capacity as deputy commander of the army, when is the
13 first term -- first time that you heard of this term in connection with
14 the army?
15 A. The first time was sometime around the 18th of June, 1993, at a
16 morning briefing.
17 Q. And who was in attendance at this morning briefing?
18 A. The commander was, and his deputies were, heads of administrations
20 Q. Could you be more specific? Commander Delic, I assume that's who
21 you mean, Commander Delic.
22 A. Yes, Commander Delic was there. The head of the Intelligence
23 Administration was there, Hajrulahovic; the head of the Security
24 Administration, Mr. Jasarevic; and the head of the Administration for
25 Moral Guidance, Brigic [Realtime transcript read in error "Brkic"]; and
2 Q. Tell us the content of the conversation with regard to the
4 A. It's not "Brkic." It's different. It is "Brigic," B-R-I-G-I-C.
5 Q. Sir, what was discussed at this meeting with regard to the
7 A. We received information about a group of soldiers from foreign
8 countries, and the details in that connection were provided by the head of
9 the Intelligence Administration, the head of the Security Administration.
10 That was the essence of it. And the others, we, the others, took part in
11 the discussion.
12 The reports spoke about the conduct of a group of alien citizens,
13 conduct that was not befitting that of members of the Army of Bosnia and
15 After a discussion that lasted for about an hour, all the present
16 proposed to Commander Delic that the problem was these people, so we are
17 not talking about any unit. According to the information that we had
18 received, this was no unit. So that we were to discuss this problem with
19 the president of the Presidency, Mr. Izetbegovic, in order for this
20 question of this group of foreign people to be resolved.
21 In the assessment of the head of the Intelligence Administration,
22 the group involved between 300 and 400 people. It was then assessed, it
23 was stated that these were people most of whom had been dispatched by
24 intelligence services, and then they were named, Israel, the French
25 service, the British even, and that most of them could speak the local
1 languages, so to speak, having been educated --
2 Q. You may as well finish your statement.
3 A. -- having been educated in the space of the former Yugoslavia. It
4 was our position and our proposal that Mr. Delic should propose that,
5 first of all, this group of foreign citizens, of citizens of other states,
6 should be sent back to wherever they had come from and, two, or (b), that
7 they should be organised as a unit and, as such, comprised within the Army
8 of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
9 Q. Is that an "and" or an "or." It says in the transcript "should be
10 sent back to where they had come from, and to." It can't be both, so ...
11 A. What I said was "and under (b), that they should become part of,"
12 et cetera, to be established as a unit and be comprised as such within the
13 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is 1314.22 where you have the "(b)."
14 Q. I see the "(b)," but, sir, you said: "a proposal that Mr. Delic
15 should propose that, first of all, this group of citizens, of citizens of
16 other states, should be sent back to wherever they had come from, and,
17 two," and so on and so forth.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: "Two or(b)."
19 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. Sorry. I didn't see the "or." Excuse me,
20 Your Honour. That was my fault.
21 Q. And what was General Delic's response to this?
22 A. He simply accepted this proposal. There was no need for any
23 comment on his part. He acknowledged our considerations. I'm quite sure
24 that had he had any different proposal, he would have said so. We were
25 all, of course, together shouldering the responsibility for everything
1 that was transpiring. It was not just Delic's responsibility.
2 Q. Now, when you mentioned that they were committing -- or they were,
3 at page 59, line 13, "conduct that was not befitting that of members of
4 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina." What do you mean by that?
5 A. According to the information that we'd received that day, they
6 were not participating in operations with members of the army. They were
7 confronting the local police. They were having conflicts with the local
8 police. They were actually making their logistical -- acquiring their
9 logistical supplies by violent ways, because they were not part of the
10 army which actually took care of logistical support in the regular way.
11 MS. SARTORIO: I just have a few more questions in this area, Your
12 Honour, and then could we finish?
13 Okay. Thank you.
14 Q. Had you heard any information about any connection between these
15 persons and civilians?
16 A. I don't know what connections between those people and civilians
17 you mean.
18 Q. Did you ever hear of any reports that they, these people, the
19 people that you were speaking of at this meeting, were conducting
20 unbefitting conduct with regard to civilians? You just mentioned police
21 officers, but I'm asking you if you also received information with regard
22 to civilians.
23 A. What I meant was that they actually acquired their supplies, their
24 food, by violent ways. They simply took it from the shops or they just
25 simply wrestled it away from individuals.
1 Q. And do you know what was done as a result of this meeting?
2 A. No, I don't.
3 Q. Did you ever discuss or hear another discussion about the
4 Mujahedin in any other meetings after this meeting?
5 A. I did not attend any such meetings, if any were held.
6 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour. We may stop here.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, General. I may have misunderstood your
8 testimony just a while ago, but I thought you said that the proposal was
9 made either to decide to send all these foreigners back to where they came
10 from or, in the alternative, to try and integrate them properly into the
11 army so that they would behave according to the rules; and then you said
12 that General Delic accepted the proposal, and I was just unsure about
13 which of the two proposals was it that he accepted.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only learned from the press that,
15 I don't know under whose suggestion, Mr. Delic wrote an order that a unit
16 should be formed and made part of the 3rd Corps. Therefore, until
17 recently, I never knew that Commander Delic issued such an order. Whether
18 it was his decision or whether it was given to him as a task by the
19 supreme commander, well, that I don't know.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see. But you were there present at the meeting
21 on 18th of June, 1993, at the morning meeting with Delic and with the head
22 of the Intelligence Service and the heads of the other services that you
23 mentioned. And you told us that the head of the Intelligence Service
24 informed the group, at the meeting -- at the morning meeting on 18th June,
25 about these foreigners and told the members present at that meeting about
1 all the misconduct that the foreigners displayed; for instance, being
2 violent against the civilian population, confronting the police, et
4 And I thought you said that at that meeting the proposal was made
5 to decide, there and then, to send these people back. That was one
6 option, and the other option was if you could not send them back, then at
7 least be sure that they were incorporated properly into the army. And
8 then you continued to say that General Delic accepted the proposal, and I
9 was just not sure about which of the two proposals it was that he
11 We know, as a result, from other testimonies, that in the end the
12 foreigners stayed, so obviously they were not sent home. But I'm curious
13 to know if actually it could have been decided at that morning meeting on
14 the 18th of June to send back the foreigners. Was that a real option?
15 And what was General Delic's position on it? What did he accept?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Harhoff, your conclusion
17 is correct, but, however, we did not say that it was supposed to be
18 resolved in the field. We said that the army commander should discuss
19 that issue with Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, and to make two proposals: The
20 first one, to return those people where they had come from, and we at the
21 staff did not know where they had come from.
22 Option number 2 was given -- or provided that was impossible. And
23 now we know much more about where those people had actually come from than
24 we knew at the time. We proposed that they be incorporated into the Army
25 of Bosnia-Herzegovina or, to be more specific, into the 3rd Corps.
1 Therefore, I don't know what Commander Delic and the president of the
2 Presidency finally decided.
3 The events of the fortnight, well, I only recently saw that there
4 was a document by which Commander Delic ordered that the El Mujahed Unit
5 be formed. He was there with us, Commander Delic, and he was aware that
6 we did not need those people for the simple reason that they did not fit
7 inside the defence concept of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
8 You are correct when you say that even today there are still those
9 who should leave Bosnia-Herzegovina, 15 years later. I'm now referring to
10 the 18th of June, 1993, when I learned of that for the first time.
11 Perhaps others knew before me, but that was the first time that I heard
12 specifically about this group of people that should have been made part of
13 the regular army, with all its regulations and rules.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: So the proposal to either send back the people or
17 to integrate them was a proposal to be presented to the president of the
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hope so. I don't know.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: And presumably General Delic then took these two
21 proposals to President Izetbegovic. From the meeting, he brought forward
22 the proposal to the president. And, in your view, was it then the
23 president who ultimately decided to allow the foreigners to stay and to
24 integrate them in the army?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm certain that
1 Mr. Delic conveyed our opinions and the conclusions made at the staff.
2 There were 13 of us; however, I cannot go about guessing as to who made
3 the decision.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. I think this is probably the time to
6 MS. SARTORIO: I have no further questions today, Your Honours,
7 unless we're going to keep going.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me understand it clearly. You have no further
9 questions today?
10 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. But I won't be very long tomorrow. I'll stay
11 within the time frame that we --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 We are going to adjourn, and we'll come back tomorrow at 9.00 in
14 the same court, sir. Okay. Sorry, I was still trying to warn the
16 Okay, did you hear that, sir? Tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the
17 same court.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 Court adjourned until tomorrow.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.55 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day of
23 September, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.