1 Thursday, 13 September 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody.
7 Mr. Registrar, may you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 May we have the appearances, please, starting with the
13 Mr. Mundis.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Good morning, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around
16 the courtroom. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Laurie Sartorio,
17 assisted by our intern, Emma Berry, and our case manager, Alma Imamovic.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 For the Defence, Madam Vidovic.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Good
21 morning to my friends from the Prosecution and to everyone in the
23 Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson on behalf of General Rasim
24 Delic, with our assistants Lejla Gluhic, Lana Deljkic, and Asja Zujo.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
1 Sir, I know you know this already by now, but it's still my duty
2 to remind you that you are still bound by the declaration you made at the
3 beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
4 nothing else but the truth.
5 WITNESS: Jovan Divjak [Resumed]
6 [The witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 Mr. Robson.
9 MR. ROBSON: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, General.
10 Your Honour, I would like to return back to the diary of the
11 18th -- the extract of the diary from the 18th of June of June, if I may.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You always may.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Robson: [Continued]
14 Q. General, do you have your diary for June 1993 beside you?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The diary is here now. It can be handed over.
16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You showed me the notes for the 18th
18 of June yesterday; however, I don't have it next to me right now.
19 MR. ROBSON:
20 Q. General, if you could please check your diary for the entry for
21 the 18th of June, now that you have the document.
22 A. There seems to be no note on the 18th of June concerning any
23 discussion about foreign volunteers in the territory of
25 Q. General, having just told us that, yesterday I showed you an order
1 of General Delic to the 3rd Corps, dated the 16th of June, ordering
2 foreign volunteers to be sent to Igman to join an independent detachment
3 or to otherwise have their hospitality withdrawn.
4 Is it possible that the meeting at which the Mujahedin were
5 discussed actually took place before the 16th of June?
6 A. I am trying to verify that against the notes, starting with the
7 day of Mr. Delic's appointment as commander. The first briefing session
8 of the commander was on the 9th of June.
9 Q. General, if I could, perhaps, stop you there.
10 A. Yes, certainly.
11 Q. Is it possible that the meeting at which the Mujahedin were
12 discussed took place before the 16th of June, and you didn't record it in
13 your diary?
14 A. There is such a possibility, perhaps; however, judging by my notes
15 and the method I used to note things down, had there been such a meeting,
16 I believe I would have noted it.
17 Q. Okay. Thank you.
18 I'm going to turn to a different issue. Yesterday, you were shown
19 a document by the Prosecution, Exhibit 350 marked for identification.
20 MR. ROBSON: And perhaps if we could just have the document
21 brought up on the screen, just the front page.
22 Your Honours, this was the document from the Zenica MUP and 3rd
23 Corps, dated 10th of June, 1994.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was it 10th of June or 10th of August?
25 MR. ROBSON: I apologise, the 10th of August.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 MR. ROBSON:
3 Q. General, during your testimony, you stated, in relation to this
4 document, that, "I want to reiterate that this was a joint report;
5 however, it was drafted by the Ministry of the Interior of Zenica. It was
6 signed by the 3rd Corps commander as well, though."
7 And my question to you is: Do you agree that the Ministry of
8 Interior had authority to deal with problems relating to civilians and
9 persons who were not members of the Bosnian Army?
10 A. Inter alia, that was one of their tasks.
11 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, this document can be put away, and I'm
12 going to turn to another issue, if I may.
13 Q. General, during the first day of your testimony, you were asked by
14 the Prosecution about changes in the ethnic composition of the ARBiH after
15 June 1993, and you told the Court: "It began changing after some five or
16 six months of existence of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
17 Do you recall giving that answer?
18 A. Yes, that's how it was.
19 Q. So that would mean that the ethnic composition of the ARBiH was
20 already changing in 1992; is that right?
21 A. Towards the end of 1992 and early 1993.
22 MR. ROBSON: I would like the witness to be shown a Defence
23 document, D245.
24 Q. Now, General, could you just confirm for us that what we can see
25 here is a document headed "Recommendation." It's addressed to the
1 Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it's dated the
2 17th of June, 1993?
3 A. Yes, correct.
4 MR. ROBSON: If we could just please look at page 5 of the English
5 version and page 2 of the Bosnian version. If we can, first of all, go
6 down to the bottom of the pages, please.
7 Q. Could you confirm, General, that this recommendation, sent on the
8 17th of June, was sent by General Delic?
9 A. Yes, I can.
10 MR. ROBSON: Now, if we can just go back to page 2 of the English
11 version, and also page 1 of the Bosnian version, please.
12 Q. Can you see a heading -- a subheading there, General, that says
14 A. Yes, I can.
15 Q. And is it correct, General, that this recommendation relates to a
16 proposed new organisation and establishment structure of the command and
17 control of the arms struggle and further engagement in war in the Republic
18 of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, General, I'd like to go back to page 5 of the document in the
21 English version and page 2 in the Bosnian. Do you see the
22 second-from-last paragraph just above the signature of General Delic?
23 It's the --
24 A. The integral part of this proposition is the schematic display of
25 the organisation of the army.
1 Q. So, in fact, if I can just read this paragraph out to you, what it
2 states, General, is that: "The Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina Army
3 chart and draft decision on the organisational structure of the Army of
4 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Ministry of Defence are
5 integral parts of this recommendation."
6 So does that show, General, that attached to this recommendation
7 is an -- is something else, it's a draft decision?
8 A. Yes. It is a recommendation on how to structure, in terms of
9 organisation and establishment, the defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
10 Q. Now, if we can actually look at the draft decision, we can find it
11 as an annex to this document. It's -- in the English version, it's on
12 page 6; and in the B/C/S version, it's page 3.
13 If you could just briefly look at the heading of this document,
14 General, would you agree that this is the draft decision that we've just
15 discussed, which is an integral part of General Delic's recommendation?
16 A. Yes, it is. I can state that it has its legal foundation, since
17 it was drafted by Dr. Musir Brkic, who at the time was the head of the
18 Department of Legal Affairs.
19 Q. Now, General, the part that I'd like to refer you to can be found
20 in -- on page 12 of the English version and page 5 of the B/C/S version.
21 Now, General, the relevant part I'd like to refer you to is point
22 5 on this page. It's towards the bottom of the page. Do you see that?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Could you please read that out to the Tribunal?
25 A. "When appointing active servicemen and civilians employed by the
1 army to establishment positions in administrations and departments of the
2 Main Staff, attention shall be given to a balanced representation of the
3 peoples of the Republic and other ethnicities who live in it.
4 "Main Staff deputy commanders shall represent the peoples, Muslim,
5 Serb, and Croat. The organisation and establishment of the Main Staff are
6 determined by the Presidency of the Republic at the recommendation of the
7 Main Staff commanders collegium."
8 Q. So, General, the recommendation of General Delic was issued on the
9 17th of June, which was only a short time after he was appointed as
10 commander; is that so?
11 A. Could we please see whether this document is, indeed, dated the
12 17th of June?
13 Q. We can do that. It's on the first page.
14 MR. ROBSON: Perhaps, if we can just show the B/C/S version.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, the 17th of June,
17 MR. ROBSON:
18 Q. And would you agree with me, General, that it's clear, from the
19 recommendation and the draft decision, that General Delic was trying to
20 preserve the ethnic composition of the ARBiH?
21 A. He merely implemented the things envisaged by the Constitution,
22 and when the organisation of the staff of the army was supposed to have
23 been organised in the way that it would represent all of the peoples
24 residing in Bosnia-Herzegovina; that is, Serbs, Croats, Muslims, and
1 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, could this document please be admitted
2 into evidence?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
4 please be given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 357.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 MR. ROBSON:
8 Q. Now, General, I'd like to turn to a different issue, and this
9 concerns the video clips that you were shown relating to the 7th Muslim
11 MR. ROBSON: Now, please, could the third clip be shown again to
12 General Delic [sic], and I'll perhaps say when it can be stopped.
13 [Videotape played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Commander of the General Staff of
15 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina addressed those present."
16 MR. ROBSON:
17 Q. Now, General, the first thing I'd like to ask you: We saw those
18 video clips several times during the last few days. Could you confirm for
19 us that at no time during the course of seeing those clips did we see any
20 Arabic-looking men or foreigners in those clips?
21 A. I did not. I did not see any. But the way you put it, I believe
22 it's a bit leading, if I'm using the correct term. It's very leading;
23 however, I did not see any.
24 Q. Unfortunately, for you, General, and perhaps fortunately for me, I
25 have the right to put these sorts of questions.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Robson, hold on.
2 I may be mistaken, but I think we saw some gentlemen with white
3 hats and black robes, did we not?
4 MR. ROBSON: Indeed, we did, Your Honour. Perhaps, we can refer
5 back to the video clip, and we can explore this issue.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: I don't want to interrupt your cross-examination.
7 It's just to clarify what we're looking for.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just add my confusion, too, so that when you
9 go back to the clip, you can deal with it as well, Mr. Robson.
10 I just don't know how your question can be answered, how one
11 confirms that people there are one race or the other, but I just -- I'm
13 Carry on, carry on. I also am not going to interfere with you.
14 MR. ROBSON:
15 Q. General, the men in the white robes, and this is the -- holding
16 the guns, just to be absolutely clear, they were members of the 7th Muslim
17 Brigade; is that so?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we show those men that we are talking about?
20 MR. ROBSON: If the clip could be shown from the beginning again,
22 [Videotape played]
23 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Following that, the commander of
24 the General Staff, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Rasim Delic, addressed
25 the honourable ranks of the 7th Muslim Chivalrous Mountain Brigade and all
2 "Firstly, I must convey ..." --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just be sure I follow the question. Are we
4 talking about the officials who are standing in front, including
5 Mr. Delic, or are we talking about the army -- members of the army who are
6 in white uniform?
7 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, the initial question was based on the
8 fact that the Trial Chamber had the opportunity to watch these clips on
9 several occasions during the course of yesterday, I think it was. And the
10 question directed to the General was whether, based on him seeing those
11 clips played a number of times, whether he could identify -- whether he
12 noticed any Arabic-looking men whatsoever. So that would be within the
13 crowd of the soldiers or within the lineup of officials.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then I follow you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't notice anyone of that
16 description, a foreigner. I don't see any person like that.
17 MR. ROBSON: Could this clip be backed up a little, please,
18 just -- what I'd like to do is identify a frame which has a gentleman in
19 the blue jacket with a beard, in a military uniform.
20 [Videotape played]
21 MR. ROBSON: It's before then. It's probably as easy to run it
22 from the beginning again.
23 [Videotape played]
24 MR. ROBSON:
25 Q. Do you see the gentleman there in the blue jacket with the short
1 hair and beard, General?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you confirm for us that that man is Halil Brzina?
4 A. Yes, I can.
5 Q. Is it right that he is a Bosniak from Bosnia-Herzegovina, or a
6 local Bosniak?
7 A. I cannot say the rest; however, I can tell you that he is a local
8 Bosniak. I am not familiar with his biography there.
9 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, General.
10 Your Honours, I don't propose to have any more questions about
11 this video clip.
12 Q. Before we leave that issue, General, we saw some of the religious
13 men in robes and headwear. Can you confirm that they also were not Arabic
15 A. That is the reis ulluma, Effendi Seric, who is the head of the
16 Islamic religious community in Bosnia-Herzegovina. His origins may be
17 Arabic, but it probably goes a couple of hundred years back.
18 Q. Thank you, General.
19 A. You are welcome.
20 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, I'd like to turn to the transcript of
21 the interview with General Divjak, and in particular the extract which was
22 put on the ELMO yesterday and shown to the Trial Chamber.
23 What I would propose at this stage is if the relevant page or
24 pages could please be returned to the ELMO. Perhaps, please, could I have
25 a look at the document before it goes on there.
1 Your Honours, it's going to be necessary to look at two pages of
2 this document. Before the document is actually put onto the ELMO, if I
3 could perhaps begin by asking the General the following:
4 Q. Yesterday, General, the Prosecutor suggested that in this
5 interview, it said that, and I quote: "7th Muslim Brigade is responsible
6 to a certain extent for atrocities over non-Bosniak people."
7 You responded that: "What I said is written here, which is that
8 the 7th Muslim Brigade also bears responsibility."
9 And you went on to say: "I did not know that the brigade was
10 doing anything in contravention of the Geneva Conventions."
11 Can you recall giving that response?
12 A. Yes, I can.
13 MR. ROBSON: If the first page could please be put on the ELMO. If
14 we can move down to the -- so it shows the bottom half of this page,
16 Q. Now, General, this document records what you actually said during
17 the course of that OTP interview. Please, could you read out what you
18 said from line 24 onwards?
19 A. "However, there is a personal opinion of mine here, which is to
20 state certain responsibility for the suffering of the non-Bosniak people."
21 MR. ROBSON: And if we can please put the next page on.
22 Q. It will be the top of this page.
23 A. "It is borne by the 7th Muslim Brigade. The 7th Muslim Brigade
24 was a unit that have full logistical support."
25 You know well, I suppose, that they elected Alija Izetbegovic
1 their honorary commander.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. You are welcome.
4 Q. So what you mentioned during this interview was "suffering"; is
5 that so?
6 A. "Suffering" and "threats."
7 Q. At no stage, then -- it's right to say, isn't it, General, that at
8 no stage was the word "atrocities" used by you during this interview?
9 A. No.
10 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, General.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Robson?
12 MR. ROBSON: Yes.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Just to be sure, are you suggesting that the
14 interpretation is incorrect here?
15 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: So instead of the word "atrocities" on line 7, it
17 should read what?
18 MR. ROBSON: "Suffering." And also, Your Honour, I would say it
19 would be the Defence's position that the reference to "destruction" on
20 line 2 is also incorrect.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: And "casualties" on line 2 also?
22 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can we have the correct interpretation of those
24 two words also?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see what is being interpreted by those
2 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, just to explain, we've obviously read
3 out -- the General has read out exactly what he said during that
4 interview; and, today, it's been interpreted by professional interpreters,
5 and --
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Just excuse me, because I was unaware of this
7 being the issue, so I didn't pick up on what it should have been instead,
9 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour.
10 Perhaps then, please, if we could go back to the previous page, at
11 the bottom, and we could get the General to read out again what he
12 actually said.
13 Q. General, please, could you repeat for the Trial Chamber what you
14 told the investigator on that day?
15 A. "However, there is a personal opinion of mine here, to state the
16 responsibility for the suffering of the non-Bosniak people."
17 Q. And if we could go on and if you could just read the very next
19 A. "It is borne by the 7th Muslim Brigade."
20 Can I add to this, to my opinion?
21 MR. ROBSON: Well, Your Honour -- sorry, General.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: You should ask now the witness to clarify what he
23 was actually saying here, because it seems to me that General Divjak does
24 say that the 7th Muslim Brigade was in some way responsible for some
25 suffering of non-Bosniak people. So what was he talking about, and when
1 and where did this happen?
2 MR. ROBSON:
3 Q. General, you've heard His Honour's question. Are you able to
4 clarify that point, please?
5 A. Yesterday, and the day before yesterday, during the interview with
6 counsel, with counsel, I said that as far as I -- what I knew about all
7 this, I acquired in September 1993; namely, when I went to tour the 2nd
8 Corps, having stayed for a while in Zenica. Also, I was in touch with
9 the people who were members of the Association of Serbian Citizens
10 Council, and they told me about an instance of the sowing of disquiet,
11 unrest, among the non-Bosniaks. They explained to me at that time that
12 one of the methods of sowing fear was the way that they were carrying out
13 their morning workouts.
14 At that time, as regards the physical extermination, although that
15 is too harsh a word, but as regards physical torture, I had not; namely,
16 when I reframe from fully saying what's on my mind, that is because that
17 is the information I gained after the war and during the processes that
18 were conducted. In fact, one of those processes trials was conducted
19 before this Tribunal.
20 I seek to speak about things that I personally witnessed, not
21 things that I heard. So in that time, 1993 and 1994, I, at that time, I
22 had no information that the 7th Muslim Brigade, apart from the example
23 which I gave you, tortured non-Bosniaks otherwise.
24 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, General.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Will you pursue this issue, because if you don't,
1 then I will.
2 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I don't intend to ask the question --
3 this witness any further questions about what he's just explained.
4 Q. But, General, could you just please clarify something. What you
5 actually -- the expression that you used during this interview was you
6 talked about "responsibility for the suffering of non-Bosniaks."
7 Now, the interpreter who was with you in that interview has
8 interpreted what you said as being "the destruction of non-Bosniak people"
9 and also as "atrocities over non-Bosniak people." Would you agree with me
10 that that interpreter has mistranslated what you've said?
11 A. In regard of such harsh formulations, yes. But I should like to
12 repeat what I have just said a while ago. My information about the
13 activities and the way the 7th Muslim Brigade was used was information
14 which I gained after the war, and a year ago proceedings were conducted
15 here before this very Tribunal in connection with the conduct of the 7th
16 Muslim Brigade.
17 Q. Thank you, General. I appreciate the point you're making, but the
18 issue that we are dealing with right now is the translation of what you
19 told the OTP in 2005.
20 I'm going to move on to a different issue, if I may.
21 If the witness could please be shown --
22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Robson, sorry for
23 interrupting you, but I have got a problem of interpretation, myself.
24 It seems to me that I understood the witness as saying yesterday
25 that there is a difference between the words "Bosnian" and "Bosniak," and
1 here in English I see that when the witness mentioned the Bosniaks. Here,
2 in English, we have "Bosniaks"; whereas, in French, I seem to hear the
3 word "Bosnian."
4 But I understood that "Bosnian" was a more general term referring
5 to all those people living in Bosnia; whereas, "Bosniak" is something more
6 limited, and it is a word that designates a religious community, the
7 Muslims if I understand correctly. Therefore, I would like to have some
8 clarification on that point; and if necessary, corrections in the French
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Madam, Your Honour, you have made a
11 very good distinction between the Bosnians and the Bosniaks. The
12 Professor Paul Gard, whom you probably know, actually, in seeking to
13 explain to the French public these two concepts, explained that a
14 "Bosnian" was a citizen of the State of Bosnia and Herzegovina. So we
15 have a Bosnian who is a Bosniak and a Bosnian who is a Serb and a Bosnian
16 who is a Croat.
17 And "Bosniaks" is a name, is a designation which the Muslims
18 accepted as their very own from August 1993. So the 7th Muslim Brigade
19 bears the designation of the people of the Muslims until that point in
20 time when they took the name "Bosniak."
21 A small mistake can be made there, because there also exists a
22 Bosnian language. Under the Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there
23 exists three languages: The Bosnian, the Serbian, and the Croatian
25 I am not sure whether this will suffice, Your Honour, by way of
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you very much, and
3 thank you to the interpreters in the French booth.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, before I proceed any further, might it
6 be possible for these two pages to be made an exhibit?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are they not already exhibits?
8 MR. ROBSON: No, Your Honour. The documents -- I'm not asking
9 that the whole document be put in -- tendered into evidence. I'm just
10 talking about these specific two pages relating to the issue with which
11 we've just discussed.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The two pages that have just been shown are
13 admitted into evidence. May they please be given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 358.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 MR. ROBSON: Now, Your Honours, returning back to -- or turning to
17 a different issue. Could the witness please be shown document D217. It's
18 document D217.
19 In the Bosnian version, if we can please scroll down to the bottom
20 of the page, and perhaps just enhance the bottom right-hand corner.
21 Q. General, can you just confirm for us that what we see here are the
22 rules of service in the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
23 A. Yes. This is the rules of service in the Army of the Republic of
24 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I myself am one of the authors of these rules.
25 MR. ROBSON: If we could just look at the last page in the B/C/S
1 and also English version. That's the right one. If you can scroll over,
2 and it's the bottom left-hand corner in the B/C/S version we're interested
3 in, if we can just focus on that. It's not necessary to look at the
4 English version.
5 Q. General, can you confirm for us that the date of these rules are
6 the 1st of August, 1992?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What I'd like to refer your attention to is paragraph 12, which
9 appears at page 2 on the English version and page 2 of the Bosnian
11 MR. ROBSON: Point 12 is on the right-hand side of the B/C/S
12 version, so perhaps if we could focus on point 12 through to 16. Yes,
13 that's right.
14 Q. General, in these rules, under the heading "Relations in the
15 Army," do you see the part that says: "A superior shall be a person who,
16 pursuant to the law, is authorised to lead or command a military unit
17 command or institution and the persons who serve in them. The other
18 persons in that unit, command or institution shall be subordinate."
19 Can you see that part?
20 A. Yes, I can.
21 Q. And then underneath do you see where it says: "A senior shall be
22 a person having a higher rank; and should the rank be the same or there is
23 no rank, the senior shall be the person in a higher position"?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Now, if I can refer you down to point 16, and that's on the next
1 page in the English version, could you just read out point 16 to us,
3 A. Item 16: "A service-related order of a superior officer must be
4 carried out by persons serving in the army without discussion completely,
5 exactly, and promptly."
6 Of course, the original says "time" or "promptly" in the Bosniak
7 version. I'm speaking of the Serbian version.
8 "Persons serving in the army must carry out the orders of the most
9 senior commander present when their superior officer is absent and when it
10 is necessary to take immediate measures to complete urgent tasks,
11 especially in combat, emergency situations."
12 Q. And if you can read the last bit out, please.
13 A. You mean within item 16?
14 Q. Yes, yes.
15 A. "If a person serving in the army ..." --
16 Q. Sorry, General, I apologise. I'm not sure, perhaps, whether we
17 were cut off. It was the part after "combat and emergency situations"
18 from the first paragraph, the paragraph you were just reading from.
19 A. That is what I'm reading.
20 "If a person serving in the army does not receive an order or if
21 an order arrives late ..." --
22 Q. General, I apologise. I'll -- can I just ask you this: Does this
23 paragraph say that: "Persons serving in the army must carry out the
24 orders of the most senior commander present when their superior officer is
25 absent and when it is necessary to take immediate measures to complete
1 urgent tasks, especially in combat, emergency situations, and when
2 re-establishing the disrupted organisation of work, order and discipline"?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, General, you've mentioned that you were one of the authors of
5 these rules, so you must be very familiar with them. Is that so?
6 A. Not very, but familiar.
7 Q. And would you agree with me that the effect of these rules was
8 that the most senior ARBiH commander present at a location would have the
9 authority to take immediate measures to complete urgent tasks?
10 A. In all instances, he was the one who was making the decisions on
11 that when he was present.
12 Q. Now, the authority, then, that that commander would have would
13 also allow him to order measures if it appeared to him that there had been
14 either a breach of discipline or criminal offences committed by Bosnian
15 Army soldiers; is that so?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. And, General, please, can you confirm that these rules of service
18 were in force throughout the war?
19 A. The rules of service, they were.
20 MR. ROBSON: Please, could this document be admitted into
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
23 please be given an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 359.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 MR. ROBSON:
2 Q. And now we come to the final topic of my questions.
3 General, yesterday you were shown a video of a meeting that took
4 place between representatives of the Bosnian Army and the HVO. Do you
5 remember seeing that video?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. In your testimony, you mentioned that we could see Mr. Ganic, who
8 was the president of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and
9 Mr. Zubak, who was the vice-president of the Federation; is that so?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what you told the Trial Chamber was that that video had been
12 taken sometime after the Federation was formed; is that so?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. Now, it's right the Federation was formed in 1994; can you confirm
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And would you agree with me that that meeting, of which we saw the
18 video, could have taken place any time in 1994, 1995, or even in 1996,
19 after the Dayton Agreement was signed?
20 A. If my memory serves me well, it was ascertained that this was done
21 at the end of 1994.
22 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, just to make clear that that point is
23 disputed by the Defence, that was a fact -- that was something that was
24 told to the Trial Chamber by the Prosecution, but it hasn't been led in
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We note that.
2 MR. ROBSON:
3 Q. So, General, sorry, just to return back to the question. It's the
4 Defence's position that it has not been ascertained when the meeting took
5 place. Would you agree with me that that meeting could have taken place
6 in either -- in 1994, 1995, or even in 1996?
7 A. But judging by the attire of those attending the meeting, it was
8 in wintertime.
9 Q. If it was in wintertime, does it follow, then, that it could have
10 been winter of 1994, 1995, or even winter of 1996?
11 A. It could not have been 1995 or 1996, because the Peace Accords in
12 Paris had already been signed by that time.
13 MR. ROBSON: All right. Thank you very much, General. I have no
14 further questions for you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Robson.
16 Madam Sartorio.
17 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
18 Re-examination by Ms. Sartorio:
19 Q. General Divjak, you were asked on cross-examination about your
20 testimony with regard to the ethnic composition changing in the army, and
21 you said: "It began towards the end of 1992 and early 1993."
22 My question to you is this: Did the changing ethnic composition
23 of the army continue to change over the course of the next two years or
24 did it not change any further?
25 A. The ethnic composition was changing. I'm not going to go into the
1 reasons for that. But I can tell you in 1993 and 1992, we had three heads
2 of administration who were of Croatian and Serbian ethnicity. But towards
3 the end of 1994, we no longer had any heads of Staff or Chiefs of Staff or
4 heads of administration of any other ethnicity but Bosniak.
5 When we talk about other things, this was not a specific problem
6 in 1992 and 1993 in the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. There were only
7 Bosniaks as commanders of corps in the army. Throughout the Army of
8 Bosnia and Herzegovina, there were three commanders, commanders of
9 battalions, who were of other ethnicity.
10 Q. What years are you talking about where there were three commanders
11 of other ethnicity, just so I'm clear?
12 A. I'm talking about 1992 and 1993; however, I want to stress, again,
13 that I was talking about heads of administration. In 1992 and 1993, there
14 were three of them who were of other ethnicities; and as of 1994 and
15 onwards, all heads of administrations within the Staff of the Army of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina were of one ethnicity alone.
17 Q. Okay. And do you include in "all heads of administrations," do
18 you include corps commanders in that category?
19 A. No. Corps commanders are at a different command level.
20 Q. Do you know what the ethnic composition was in terms of the corps
21 commanders in 1993, 1994, and 1995?
22 A. All corps commanders were Bosniaks.
23 Q. And with regard to the foot soldiers, sir, do you know if -- what
24 the ethnic composition was in 1993, 1994, 1995, in terms of the foot
1 A. I don't have such data, of course.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. However, I can tell you that, at that level, the overall figures
4 remained the same. However, it did not reflect the amount of Serbs and
5 Croats which remained in the territory controlled by the Government of the
6 Republic of B and H.
7 There's one thing that is important to mention, though. The armed
8 forces, according to the Constitution and the Law on Armed Forces, were
9 organised by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Croatian Defence
10 Council, or comprised those two components. However, at the beginning of
11 the war, the Croatian Defence Council failed to accept that part of the
12 Law on Defence.
13 We did, however, have four Croatian Defence Council's brigades
14 which were part of the armed forces, together with the Army of the
15 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
16 Q. What years was this?
17 A. In 1992, 1993, and 1994.
18 Q. And did the Croatian armed forces fight alongside the Army of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1993, 1994, and 1995?
20 A. The brigades I mentioned, one of them was in Sarajevo and two in
21 Tuzla, fought alongside the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina throughout the
22 war. I wish to remind you that, in 1993 and 1994, the Croatian Defence
23 Council, enjoying materiel and personnel support from the Croatian Army,
24 actually carried out or waged a war.
25 After the Washington Accords, there was cooperation between the
1 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Croatian Defence Council in the western
2 part of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, you were asked -- you were asked a question about
4 a document signed by General Delic, and I believe your quote at page 7,
5 line 25 says: "He merely implemented the things envisaged by the
7 Do you recall saying that? I probably have the wrong -- it was
8 probably -- yes. I'm sorry. It was 7:25.
9 Do you recall saying, referring to General Delic: "He merely
10 implemented the things envisaged by the Constitution"?
11 A. I'm sorry. I don't know what document you're referring to. If
12 you mean the law, that's one thing. As for the document signed by Delic,
13 it's another thing. Please give me the reference.
14 MS. SARTORIO: It was Exhibit number 357, if the witness could be
15 shown this exhibit again, please.
16 Could we go to point 5 on page 12 of the English, page 12 of
17 English, and page 5 of the B/C/S. And I have --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you also refer us to the transcript page?
19 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. It is page 7, line -- starting at page 7.
20 And it's all of page 7, and the answer to the question I just quoted was
21 at line 25. Right. Okay.
22 Q. So, sir, you were read this. Number 5 was read to you, and you
23 were asked by my learned colleague: "And would you agree with me,
24 General, that it's clear from the recommendation and the draft decision
25 that General Delic was trying to preserve the ethnic composition of the
2 Do you recall that question?
3 A. I don't think it was put that way. However, what was being
4 discussed was whether it says that the Main Staff deputy commanders should
5 represent the peoples, Muslim, Serb, and Croat. And what I wanted to say
6 was that what needed to be kept in mind was to reflect the ethnic
7 composition of the peoples; that is, the army structures should reflect
8 that. I read that from the document, and I can confirm that now.
9 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. Now I'd like the witness to be shown,
10 please, P01778.
11 Q. And while we're waiting -- it's up on the screen. The date of
12 this document, would you agree, is 5 August 1994? Would you agree with
13 that, sir?
14 A. Your Honour, it says, "Sarajevo, the 5th of August, 1994."
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.
16 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, sorry, I see this was a PT that was
17 brought to the Defence's attention, but I'd just be grateful if
18 Prosecuting counsel could perhaps just explain briefly what the document
19 is before the witness answers the question.
20 MS. SARTORIO: Well --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson, are you objecting to anything, or why
22 do you want to tell the Prosecution how to conduct their proceedings?
23 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I withdraw that objection.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was it an objection?
25 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, initially, I thought that it was a
1 document that hadn't been mentioned to the Defence prior to the witness
2 coming, but I see that it does appear on the list.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 MR. ROBSON: So, I withdraw the objection.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Robson.
6 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
7 Q. And, sir, if you look on the right-hand side of the first page,
8 who this document is going to, it's going to the command post at Kakanj,
9 commands of all the corps, all the administrations, Supreme Command, all
10 the independent departments in the Supreme Command; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that's what it says: "Sent to command post Kakanj," and the
12 rest of the things you mentioned, "commands of all the corps ..."
13 MS. SARTORIO: Now, I would also like to turn -- have the witness
14 shown the last page, please, to see who the document is from.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Army General Rasim Delic,
17 MS. SARTORIO: Now I'd like to go back to the first page, please.
18 Your Honours, I'd like to ask the witness -- there are certain
19 parts I want.
20 Q. At the beginning, the first paragraph says:
21 "At a meeting of representatives of the ARBiH Supreme Command and
22 representatives of the ARBiH Islamic community, it actually set some
23 important issues of organisation of religious life in ARBiH were
24 discussed. It was concluded that command and control bodies in most of
25 our army units ..."
1 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down when reading. Thank you.
2 MS. SARTORIO: Sorry.
3 Q. " ... successfully carry out their obligations, so as to create
4 room for religious needs of BiH army soldiers and that the organisation of
5 soldiers' religious life significantly contributed to higher combat morale
6 in the units and commands, which improved combat efficiency of our army,
8 Do you agree that's what's reflected in that paragraph, sir?
9 A. Yes, I do, Your Honour.
10 Q. And then the second paragraph says:
11 "One of the essential goals of our liberation struggle is
12 preservation of religious identity of our Bosniak people, against whom
13 genocide is being carried out so that the roots of Islam in this area can
14 be eradicated. The struggle for preservation of our national identity and
15 physical survival is in its essence a struggle for preservation of Islam
16 and BiH. At the same time, this is a struggle for full equality of all
17 people and religions."
18 Is that what paragraph 2 says?
19 A. Yes, it does.
20 Q. Before I go on, I guess my question to you is: Did the
21 Constitution envisage the integration of the religion of Islam and the
22 principles that are espoused by this religion into the Army of Bosnia and
24 A. The Constitution does not mention any integration of the religion
25 of Islam. It guarantees equal rights to all believers, irrespective of
1 whether they are members of the Orthodox, Catholic, or any other church,
2 including the religion of Islam.
3 Q. Now, you reviewed this document on Sunday, didn't you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you see the word "Catholic" or "Orthodox" or "Serb" or "Croat,"
6 or anything in this document other than -- excuse me -- in this document
7 at all, anywhere?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And now, if you go down to paragraph 4, it says:
10 "Staff members of the Islamic community who are directly engaged
11 in the BiH Army are completely satisfied with the stand of commanders and
12 other key members of staff towards the organisation's needs ..."
13 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down when reading. Thank you.
14 MS. SARTORIO: Sorry.
15 "... towards the organisation's needs and implementation of
16 religious life in our units and commands."
17 Q. This document was written by General Delic, and he --
18 A. Excuse me. He signed it. However, it was drafted by his Morale
19 Administration chief, the Administration for Morale and Religious Issues,
20 that is.
21 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
22 Your Honours, I would like to move that this document be admitted
23 into evidence, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
25 please be given an exhibit number.
1 May it please be given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 360.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 Mr. Robson, can I suggest that you hold what you want to say until
5 after the break. We're five minutes into the break time.
6 MR. ROBSON: Yes. I'd be grateful for that, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 Court adjourned.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m
10 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.
12 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I have no issue to raise. Thank you.
13 We've sorted it out.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 You may proceed, Madam Sartorio.
16 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.
17 I ask the document be admitted in evidence. That was my last
18 request, and it was.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It was admitted as Exhibit 360.
20 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
21 Q. Just one more question at page 21 of the transcript, lines 23
22 through 25.
23 MS. SARTORIO: Can the witness be shown this particular -- it's in
24 English. Okay.
25 Q. The question to you from my learned colleague was -- it was in
1 reference to the section on command and control in the document that you
2 were shown, and he said: "Now, the authority, then, that that commander
3 would have would also allow him to order measures if it appeared to him
4 that there had been either a breach of discipline or criminal offences
5 committed by Bosnian Army soldiers; is that so?"
6 And you answered: "Yes, yes."
7 My question to you, sir, is: What effect does this provision have
8 on the responsibilities and duties of a superior commander?
9 A. By issuing an order, a superior officer issues tasks to his
10 subordinate. The subordinate, in turn, is duty-bound to submit a report
11 on the measures taken pursuant to that order. If he was unable to
12 implement such tasks, he was supposed to seek help in resolving the matter
13 with the commander.
14 In all situations, subordinate officers, first of all, have to
15 report on the reception of tasks. They also have to state that they
16 understood them; and if not, they should ask clarification. And then once
17 the task is completed, and it is always within a deadline, they have to
18 report back to the commander.
19 Q. Thank you, sir. My question to you is not about the
20 responsibilities of the subordinate officer, but of the subordinate's
21 superior commander.
22 What effect does this provision have on the responsibilities of
23 the commander above the commander -- commanding officer that is provided
24 for in that provision?
25 A. Madam Judge, I wanted to start replying this way as an
1 introduction to the system of command and control.
2 The commander is duty-bound to take measures against a person who
3 failed to implement tasks as they were set out.
4 Q. If the intermediary commander fails to take measures, what effect
5 does that have or what responsibilities does that impose on the superior
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.
8 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, reference has been made to an
9 "intermediary commander." There's been no reference to such a person
10 earlier in the testimony. I wonder if this question could be rephrased,
11 perhaps, to avoid any --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, Mr. Robson, is it not so that the army is a
13 hierarchy and this deals with the rule that you referred to? It deals
14 with commander and subordinate. Now, the question is: Given the
15 hierarchy in the army, what happens if this man fails to do -- this
16 commander fails to do his job? What are the responsibilities of the
17 higher commander? Isn't that legitimate?
18 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I appreciate the reason why my learned
19 friend is asking these questions. Perhaps, if we can let the witness
20 answer, and if he understands, fair enough.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, whether he understands is another matter.
22 Yes, Madam Sartorio.
23 MS. SARTORIO: I would like to -- may I rephrase the question,
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may. You are not bound to.
1 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. Just one second. May I have a moment, Your
2 Honour, to speak to my senior colleague?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: By all means.
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MS. SARTORIO:
6 Q. General Divjak, the Judge just asked -- well, proposed a
7 question: Given the hierarchy in the army, what happens if a
8 subordinate - well, this isn't his words - but what happens if a
9 subordinate fails to act, fails to do his duties? What are the
10 responsibilities of the higher commander? That is the question.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought your question was: What are the
12 responsibilities of the higher commander if the intermediary commander
13 fails to perform his duties by disciplining the subordinate?
14 MS. SARTORIO: That's the question, Your Honour. Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, phrase it correctly so that the witness
16 understands exactly what you want.
17 MS. SARTORIO: Okay.
18 Q. General, what are the responsibilities of the higher commander if
19 the intermediary commander fails to perform the duties -- his duties of
20 disciplining a subordinate?
21 A. Any commander that had ordered something, irrespective of the
22 level of command and control, if his subordinate failed to implement the
23 task, he is bound to take measures as envisaged in the law.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Divjak. We understand that, and we know
25 that perfectly well, and hence the question is put.
1 The question now is: That commander has failed to discipline a
2 subordinate. What are the responsibilities of the superior commander?
3 That first level that you are answering to, we understand, and
4 that has been answered.
5 Do you understand what I'm saying?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a level in between.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Okay. Let me tell you what the question to
8 you is, sir.
9 You have a subordinate who is given instructions by a superior.
10 The subordinate fails to carry out the instructions, okay, and the
11 superior fails to discipline the subordinate. What are the
12 responsibilities of the higher superior to this intermediary commander?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's the question. Are you able to answer that?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The higher superior commander needs
16 to take measures, disciplinary measures, as stated in the law, as I said
17 already. The first thing --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You've said that already, so you can't
19 answer the question. Thank you very much.
20 Yes, Madam Sartorio.
21 MS. SARTORIO: We have no further questions, Your Honour, of this
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, madam.
24 Yes, Judge.
25 Questioned by the Court:
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a few questions myself.
2 Let me start with the last topic raised, the issue of the
3 responsibility of the commander.
4 During the classes you followed as part of your training as a
5 military man, did you study international humanitarian law?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In other words, commanders have
8 followed that type of course, and they are made aware of the principles of
9 humanitarian law, including the responsibility of the commander, who is
10 supposed to report matters to the operation zones. I'm talking about the
11 chain of command.
12 A. Yes, that's what we were taught.
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Another topic.
14 Yesterday, during examination-in-chief, at some point, if I'm not
15 mistaken - the parties may correct me if I'm wrong - but it seems to me
16 that you spoke about the El Mujahid Detachment. Speaking about that
17 detachment, you stated that they took part in the fighting in the area of
18 responsibility of the 3rd Corps. Am I mistaken or is it what you stated
20 A. You're not mistaken. However, I said that it was part of the 3rd
22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes. That's what I wanted to
23 find out. I wanted to understand whether the fact that they took part in
24 the fighting in the area of responsibility, as you said: "According to
25 me, 'of the 3rd Corps' meant that they were part of the 3rd Corps. They
1 were incorporated in the 3rd Corps."
2 Thank you very much for your answer. Thus, I have a few more
3 questions to put to you regarding something raised during
4 cross-examination conducted by Mr. Robson.
5 You said that it was very difficult to communicate in Bosnia
6 during the war, throughout the war, during the siege of Sarajevo and other
7 events. I got the impression that you wanted to stress something. I
8 might be mistaken. But on two occasions, you stated that these problems
9 in communications were specifically related to Srebrenica and Gorazde.
10 I would like you to explain a bit more about these problems in
11 relation to what you, yourself, stated earlier during the
12 examination-in-chief, when you explained that there were regular meetings
13 once or twice a month with the commanders in the field. You stated that
14 reports were prepared.
15 And regarding the difficulties in communications in the area that
16 is of interest to us here, I would like to know how this made it difficult
17 for commanders in the field and commanders in the operation zones to
19 A. We are talking about 1992. No one from the Staff of the Army of
20 Bosnia and Herzegovina could go out into the field, the territory of, for
21 instance, the 3rd or the 2nd or the 4th Corps, because Sarajevo was
22 blockaded. And it was only with approval, permission, from the forces of
23 UNPROFOR, from the commander of the UNPROFOR, that some people could get
24 out of Sarajevo in order to maintain links on the ground. But some people
25 were running across the airport under fire or in the thick of combat.
1 Actually, it did convey certain directives to the areas of Zenica, Tuzla,
2 and Bihac.
3 In 1993, the situation improved, at which time members of the
4 Staff could get out using the tunnel and, therefore, meet more often with
5 their subordinated units. You could see from General Delic's decision
6 that, in order to improve the functional role of the Staff, there were
7 formed command posts, or rather, a command post outside.
8 Up to that time, there had been many obstacles, many impediments
9 to the obtaining of genuine, correct information. The Staff of the Bosnia
10 and Herzegovina Army could liaise only with a part of the command, so only
11 of the corps commands, not of most of the units. They could actually
12 maintain communications with these by way of a satellite telephone, and
13 the satellite telephone, regardless of the protection system, was
14 monitored by the aggressor.
15 When I said that we had problems, I meant also during the
16 execution of combat activities because the aggressor, the enemy, would
17 often hit the command post office and unit and impair the system of
18 communications, the repair of which took several days, so that the
19 command-and-control system improved from the end of 1993 onwards.
20 I should also like to draw your attention, once again, to the fact
21 that the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, appreciating the problems
22 associated with the execution of defence operations in the territory of
23 Bosnia and Herzegovina, ordered the Chief of Staff of the Army of Bosnia
24 and Herzegovina, Mr. Halilovic, to, together with a group of officers of
25 the Main Staff, set up a forward command post at Mount Igman, but that was
1 never actually done.
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you for your answer, for
3 this very detailed and very clear answer of yours. I'm sorry, but I have
4 an additional question.
5 To your knowledge, and we are talking about the 7th Muslim Brigade
6 we saw in a video clip both yesterday and today, in that respect, were
7 there, to your knowledge, foreigners among the foot soldiers of this
8 detachment? I'm not talking about the officers. I'm talking about the
10 A. I'm not aware of this bit of information about foreigners as being
11 comprised within the 7th Muslim Brigade.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Yesterday, you stated that the 7th Muslim Brigade was not
14 characterised by its religious composition. I have a question thus: Why
15 was there a ceremony organised, a ceremony where religious Muslim leaders
16 took part and delivered a religious speech?
17 A. Madam, Your Honour, I'm not quite sure that this is what I said,
18 that I said that it did not have a religious component, that is. I should
19 like to explain that unit, which essentially was formed in this way,
20 honoured religious rules in the unit and abided by them, but that was the
21 right of those people, the right -- their right to respect regulations
22 which regulate Islam in that unit and during the execution of combat
23 missions; namely, that unit did feature elements of respect for the
24 religion of Islam more than was the case in other units in the Army of
25 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
1 You're welcome.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, General.
3 As you're aware, the trial here is against General Delic, among
4 other things, for not taking the necessary measures to prevent or punish
5 crimes that were committed by -- that were alleged to be committed by some
6 of the members of the Mujahedin. So this is why the legal matters are
7 relevant; and as they had not been fully covered, I have some extra
8 questions relating to the legal aspects.
9 And the first question I want to put to you is: What exactly was
10 the field of responsibilities between you and General Siber? I understand
11 that the two of you were the immediate subordinates of General Delic.
12 What did you deal with and what did Siber deal with; do you remember?
13 And if you don't understand my question, let me be more direct.
14 Which of you were supposed to look after the legal matters; that is to
15 say, to ensure that there was a proper system for disciplining or
16 prosecuting breaches of the law? Was that you or was that Siber?
17 A. Neither one of us. As far as I know, in the job description of
18 our actual positions, it was said that we were to represent the commander
19 in certain tasks that he delegated to us. I saw from these documents that
20 were shown that, on several occasions, I even attended Presidency
21 sessions, where I represented the commander of the Army of Bosnia and
23 As for our duties in the Staff itself, they were divided between
24 us. We shared responsibility in terms of coordinating responsibilities,
25 activities; for instance, I was in charge of the Operations Centre, the
1 Combat Arms Administration, the Moral Guidance Administration, the
2 Personnel Administration.
3 On the other side, Mr. Siber, being a technical officer, he was
4 not responsible for, but responsible for coordinating logistics,
5 organisational, mobilisation, and personnel affairs.
6 With the commander, who initially was Mr. Sefer Halilovic and
7 later Mr. Delic, we were to consider together issues which were related to
8 the organising and execution of the defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It
9 was our obligation to give him suggestions and proposals to assist him in
10 making certain specific decisions.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. The question would then be: If you
12 and Siber together did ensure that there was a system in place that would
13 enable the imposition of disciplinary measures or prosecution against any
14 member of the ABiH who acted in violation of the laws that were applicable
15 to the members of the ABiH, including, of course, the international
16 humanitarian law, the Geneva Conventions, the additional protocols, did
17 you, together with Siber, ensure that there was such a system in place and
18 that it was functioning?
19 A. We were not following those issues - at least, I was not. I don't
20 know about Siber - those issues which relate to respect for regulations
21 and laws, because they were within the ambit of the legal administration,
22 legal affairs administration. And the bulk of the documents that were
23 written were written by a person, by a man who was in sovereign command of
24 the law, and he had defended his doctorate thesis before the war and was a
25 well-known expert on the subject in the army.
1 We had instructions or a directive that actually envisaged the
2 procedure to be followed in instances of disciplinary breaches, setting
3 out very specifically what a breach of discipline was, what a failure to
4 issue -- to execute a task was, what a refusal to carry out the task was.
5 And the paragraphs also specified the relevant ambits, the relevant
6 authorities in such instances. This actually made it possible to
7 establish a system which would ensure that the decisions and orders of
8 superiors would be complied with.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Just out of curiosity, what was the
10 name of the gentleman who was in charge of the legal affairs; do you
12 A. It's definitely Dr. Musir Brkic. In fact, I said a while ago that
13 the document which was cited here as having been signed by Mr. Delic, on
14 the 16th of June, 1993, had been drawn up, written by Dr. Musir Brkic.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. So your testimony is that
16 you didn't deal with this because that was the responsibility of
17 Dr. Brkic, but did you know if a system was in place? I understand that
18 you didn't deal with it, but do you remember if there was a system, and
19 were there military courts and did they function?
20 A. Yes. They were set up immediately in 1992, in July or August, I
21 believe, and they also fell under the competence of the administration
22 which was a superior agency. There was, namely, the Administration for
23 Legal Affairs which had, within the Ministry of Defence, a legal affairs
24 administration superior to it, and they cooperated in order to produce
25 joint documents. In other words, the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina
1 insisted, through the legal administration of the Ministry of Defence,
2 that specific legal regulations be voted in, in the Presidency and by the
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. I'm sure you are aware that there is
5 often a difference between what the written word is and what the actual
6 facts are, and so my question was really if you could remember any trials
7 ever being held against members of the ABiH who had committed violations
8 of the laws. I don't ask you to give us any specific example, but my
9 question was merely a general one, if your recollection is that there was
10 actually a system and that it worked well and that trials were held every
11 now and then.
12 A. Yes. And the first prosecutions were against those in the Army of
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina who violated the Geneva Conventions.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let's then try to narrow in a bit on the issues
15 that are relevant to this case, because you said, in response to a
16 question put by Judge Lattanzi, that the El Mujahedin Detachment was a
17 part of the 3rd Corps.
18 My question is, then: What does this imply, in terms of control
19 over the combat actions that were carried out by the El Mujahedin
20 Detachment? Do you know?
21 A. I did not understand whether he was directly linked to the 3rd
22 Corps Command -- whether it was directly connected to the 3rd Corps
23 Command or connected to one of the brigades.
24 Now, irrespective of what variant was in question, whatever that
25 or any other unit did, if that was in contravention of the Geneva
1 Conventions and other rules of war, the measures were to be undertaken by
2 the first superior, the first next superior. That means that if it was a
3 part of a specific brigade, the commander of that brigade was responsible
4 for such steps. If it was comprised within the corps directly as a unit,
5 then the person responsible for taking measures was the corps commander.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Now, General, the problem we have here in this
7 trial - and this is why you are testifying to us - is that the allegation
8 has been made that the El Mujahedin Detachment was acting so independently
9 that, at least in fact, on the tactical level, it was not a part of the
10 3rd Corps. It acted very independently. It acted perhaps along with
11 combatants of the 3rd Corps, but it was not under the control of the 3rd
12 Corps. This is the issue which we are trying to find out whether this is
13 right or wrong.
14 So my question to you is, first of all: Were you aware of the
15 possibility of any question being raised about the control over the El
16 Mujahedin Detachment, or is this completely news to you?
17 A. Everything in this regard, namely, in what way the El Mujahid
18 Detachment was engaged, is something that I found out for the first time
19 and did not know before; namely, the reports which I saw here, the
20 documents that were shown to me here obviously demonstrate that it did not
21 function according to the orders issued it by the superior command.
22 The joint report by the police of Zenica and the 3rd Corps
23 commander also shows, and still shows, that the unit is not functioning as
24 part of the 3rd Corps.
25 I was not shown documents here from which it could be seen whether
1 anyone and in what way took the prescribed measures vis a vis the
2 commander of that unit, because the commander of that unit is responsible
3 for the conduct of his combatants.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Let us leave aside for the moment the
5 question of whether any action was taken, because my first interest is to
6 know whether you, at any point in 1993, received information that there
7 were disciplinary problems between -- or disciplinary problems in relation
8 to the control over the El Mujahedin Detachment. Was that ever brought to
9 your attention at any point in 1993?
10 A. That is -- in our Operations Centre, we did not receive such
11 information from the 3rd Corps in 1993.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: You're saying that you did not?
13 A. We who were there in the Staff, at the Staff in Sarajevo, namely,
14 the group that had morning, every morning, discussions and analyses of
15 events unfolding on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, did not
16 receive such information, including me, myself. At that time, we received
17 no such reports from the subordinated units.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: General, I think, but I may be wrong, but I think
19 there was. We had been given information during this trial that a
20 complaint or a request or a letter was sent by the UNHCR, I think, by
21 Mr. Akashi, to the Supreme Command of the ABiH, regarding an alleged
22 violation committed against Croats by foreign parts of the ABiH or people
23 fighting in Bosnia. And I think we also have seen - but I can ask the
24 parties to confirm this - that we've also seen that actually General Delic
25 responded to that letter by Mr. Akashi.
1 So this suggests that there must have been some discussions about
2 irregularities committed by foreigners; but as far as you can recall, this
3 was not the case. Is that how I should understand you?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.
5 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, I know this is a sensitive issue,
6 Defence counsel intervening during Judges' questions, but if perhaps I
7 could just be given the opportunity to correct the record on two facts.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Absolutely, sure. Thank you.
9 MR. ROBSON: The letter that was sent from the UN institution was
10 from Mazowiecki, and the response actually came back from the president.
11 It wasn't General Delic that responded back. And just for the final
12 purposes of clarification, General Delic wrote to the president, so his
13 response to President Izetbegovic.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you for clarifying this. I'm grateful to
15 you. Simply, my recollection was wrong.
16 MR. ROBSON: I don't know if the Prosecution have any comments to
17 make on our clarification.
18 MS. SARTORIO: Let me just look. I think it says, yes, General
19 Delic wrote to the president and the president then wrote to Mazowiecki.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Ms. Sartorio.
21 This clarifies the matter insofar as apparently there was some
22 communication at the higher level, but please let me hear your answer.
23 A. This letter has to do with the events in the Neretva Valley. I've
24 read it, and Mr. Mazowiecki sought explanation. Mr. Izetbegovic wrote the
25 report, and it was forwarded to Mr. Silajdzic, who was the prime minister.
1 This is what I managed to gather from the document.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, then, General, I'm not sure how I should now
3 understand your testimony, because, on the one hand, you are telling me
4 that you never received any information about any irregularities committed
5 by foreigners who were fighting either as part of or along with the ABiH;
6 and yet, on the other hand, you tell me that you do recall that there was
7 this letter from Mazowiecki and that it was responded by the president
8 through General Delic. So was it just a different case, or how am I to
9 understand what you are telling us?
10 A. Your Honour, it involved the Grabovica case in October 1993 when
11 Mr. Mazowiecki wanted to receive reports, and he had information on
12 certain contact -- conduct which was not in keeping with the Geneva
13 Conventions. It was independently of the issue discussed here as to what
14 was going on with the El Mujahid unit.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. That clarifies, of course, the
17 A. You're welcome.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: My final question, then, would be if you recall
19 ever having discussed the issue of crimes committed or allegedly committed
20 by members of the El Mujahedin with General Delic. Was that ever a
21 subject of discussion between the two of you?
22 A. Not with me. Mr. Delic and I did not discuss this.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just start with the topic that you have been
25 discussing with Judge Harhoff, just for my own clarification.
1 And the first question I want to ask is: Was Mr. Musir Brkic a
2 member of the Supreme Command?
3 A. Yes. He was the head of the Legal Affairs Administration within
4 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I can tell you that he was also an
5 adviser for legal matters, even when Mr. Halilovic was commander.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You have satisfied me.
7 You mentioned also that there were prosecutions against those who
8 violated Geneva Conventions. Are you able to give us examples, one or
10 A. Towards the end of 1993 or in early 1994, there was a proceedings
11 against part of the members of the 10th Mountain Brigade in Sarajevo who
12 were suspected of having killed several citizens of Serbian origin.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know the results of those proceedings?
14 A. As far as I recall, two were sentenced to -- to nine and ten years
15 imprisonment, respectively. One was tried in absentia. Last year, he was
16 taken into custody finally, and the proceedings are still ongoing in
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 At page 45 today, lines 7 to 10, you said: "I was not shown
20 documents here," and I underlined the word "here," "... from which it
21 could be seen that anyone in any way took the prescribed measures, vis a
22 vis the commander of that unit, because the commander of that unit is
23 responsible for the conduct of his combatants."
24 You remember saying that to the question?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, I said I emphasised the word "here." My
2 question to you is: Are you aware of any documents, outside of here, that
3 deal with that situation?
4 A. Your Honour, out of the documents shown to me here, two-thirds of
5 them I had never seen before.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: So can I interrupt you? Just that prefix doesn't
7 go to answering my question. I'm not asking you about documents that you
8 saw here. I'm wanting to know about documents that you are aware of
9 outside of this place and do you have any knowledge of whether prescribed
10 measures were ever taken in the circumstances that you are being asked
12 A. Your Honour, I have no knowledge of that.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. So you have no knowledge of any
14 prescribed measures by way of prosecution being taken against the El
15 Mujahid Detachment members. Thank you.
16 Could the witness please be shown Exhibit 359.
17 At page 21 of the transcript today, lines 22 to 25, you were asked
18 by Mr. Robson: "Now, the authority, then, that that commander would have
19 also allow him to order measures if it appeared to him that there had been
20 either a breach of discipline or criminal offences committed by Bosnian
21 Army soldiers; is that so?"
22 Now, at that time, you were discussing this exhibit that is being
23 shown on the screen. On a reading of the paragraph that Mr. Robson was
24 asking you a question about, I did not see the words "criminal activities"
25 or "criminal offences" or "crime." I saw the word "discipline."
1 And what I do want to find out from you is: Does this specific
2 paragraph that was being referred to here, does it deal also with criminal
3 offences or does it deal with disciplinary matters only?
4 I'm sorry. I'm not able to remember the paragraph that was being
5 discussed at the time.
6 I think it is paragraph 16, yes, where it says:
7 "A service-related order of a superior officer must be carried out
8 by a persons serving in the army without discussion, completely, exactly,
9 and promptly. Persons serving in the army must carry out the orders of
10 the most senior commander present when their superior officer is absent
11 and when it is necessary to take immediate measures to complete urgent
12 tasks, especially in combat, in emergency situations, and when
13 re-establishing the disrupted organisation of work, order, and
15 That's where the word "discipline" comes.
16 Now, I didn't -- or let me ask you: Do you understand this
17 paragraph to also deal with criminal offences?
18 A. Your Honour, in the armed forces, there used to and still exists
19 the rule or rules on military discipline, which regulated the issues
20 encompassed by your question as well. Perhaps, we could use these rules
21 in trying to establish which are the issues pertaining to military
22 discipline and which are the competencies of different command levels and
23 type of responsibility.
24 It is clearly prescribed what level and what commander and what
25 type of measure or punishment he can issue.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for that explanation. Unfortunately, I
2 don't normally understand complicated answers. That's why I try to phrase
3 my questions in such a way that I get a very simple, straightforward
5 And I'm going to ask the question once more, and could you please
6 give me a very simple and straightforward answer. The answer that I
7 expect you to give me is either a "yes" or a "no."
8 Now, my question is, and I want to repeat the question as I put
9 it, so I must stop this to get back to my question.
10 My question was: "Do you understand this paragraph to also deal
11 with criminal offences?"
12 That was my question, very simple, one fact, and you're going to
13 answer "yes" or "no," and I'll understand your answer.
14 A. No.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then I understand what that
16 detailed answer meant.
17 I have no further questions for you.
18 Questions by Madam Sartorio.
19 MS. SARTORIO: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.
21 MR. ROBSON: I do, Your Honour. Please bear with me a second.
22 Further cross-examination by Mr. Robson:
23 Q. General Divjak, just starting with His Honour Judge Moloto's last
24 question, we've discussed paragraph 16 of these rules, which says that:
25 "Persons serving in the army must carry out the orders of the
1 most senior commander present when their superior officer is absent and
2 when it is necessary to take immediate measures to complete urgent tasks,
3 especially in combat, emergency situations, and when re-establishing the
4 disrupted organisation of work, order, and discipline."
5 If a senior commander at a location discovered that a subordinate
6 member of the Bosnian Army had committed a criminal act, would the
7 language of this text, which refers to discipline, enable that senior
8 commander to take action against the subordinate?
9 A. This is how I understand your question, and in that case, yes.
10 Q. I'd like to refer back to some questions that were referred to you
11 by His Honour Judge Harhoff. You were asked about the delegation of tasks
12 or duties by the commander to the deputy commanders.
13 Is it right to say that when tasks or duties were delegated by the
14 commander to his deputy commanders, those tasks or duties then become the
15 responsibility of the deputy commanders? Is that so?
16 A. Yes, but within the scope of the commander's order.
17 Q. Yes. And that would be particularly so if the commander delegated
18 a task or duty to a deputy commander in the field?
19 A. Yes, as well.
20 MR. ROBSON: If you just bear with me, Your Honour.
21 Q. General Divjak, Her Honour Judge Lattanzi asked you about the
22 ceremony that we saw involving the 7th Muslim Brigade, and she asked you a
23 question about the religious speech.
24 Is it right that during the Second World War, the Eastern Bosnian
25 Muslim Brigade protected Serbs?
1 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I object to the relevance of this
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.
4 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, the point that we're making is that the
5 prefix attached --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, wait a minute. You are now going to explain
7 your question. You are not responding to the objection, and the objection
8 is precisely so that your question must not be put, and therefore it must
9 not be explained.
10 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's the purpose of the objection.
12 MR. ROBSON: I concede that. I withdraw that question, and if I
13 could rephrase it in hopefully a better manner.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 MR. ROBSON:
16 Q. The video that we saw and the discussions we've had during your
17 testimony have related to the 7th Muslim Brigade. I mentioned a moment
18 ago that Eastern Bosnian Muslim Brigade, which is accepted was not
19 functioning during the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but would you
20 accept, General, that the prefix "Muslim" --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: But then, Mr. Robson, if that Eastern Bosnian
22 Brigade did not function during this war and has never been raised in
23 evidence, what is the relevance of your question? That's the objection of
24 the Prosecution, sir.
25 MR. ROBSON:
1 Q. Just on that final point, General, would you agree with me that
2 the prefix "Muslim" is really not so important.
3 MR. ROBSON: And we're talking about the 7th Muslim Brigade here,
4 Your Honour, not the Eastern Bosnian Muslim Brigade.
5 MS. SARTORIO: I object. Perhaps he can -- Defence counsel can
6 again re-ask the question.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Put your question in full, sir, a non-objectionable
9 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson, ask your question.
12 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I'm going to move on, and this is my
13 last point.
14 Q. General Divjak, during the proofing session several days ago with
15 the Prosecution, and during the course of your testimony over the last few
16 days, you were shown a number of documents which mentioned the El Mujahid
17 Detachment. Now, not so long ago, in response to one of the questions of
18 the Judges, you said: "Everything in this regard is something that I
19 found out for the first time."
20 I wish to refer you to what you told the Prosecution during that
21 proofing session, a note of which was supplied to Defence, and it was
22 recorded there from that session that it was your opinion that the
23 Mujahedin were never incorporated into the ARBiH, to your knowledge, not
24 even by the war's end.
25 It's right, isn't it, what you told the Prosecution during that
1 proofing session?
2 A. It is right, I did.
3 MR. ROBSON: I have no further questions. Thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Robson.
5 Mr. Divjak, this brings us to the conclusion of your testimony.
6 Let me take this opportunity, on behalf of the Trial Chamber, to thank you
7 for taking time off your very busy schedule. I believe you must be a busy
8 person, even though you may be retired, to come and testify. And having
9 done so, I just want to say you are now excused. You may stand down.
10 Thank you very much.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would imagine this is a convenient time to take
15 the break.
16 Mr. Mundis.
17 MR. MUNDIS: It is, Your Honours. But just before we break, the
18 Prosecution, immediately after the break, calls Enver Berbic, and so
19 perhaps he can be brought into the courtroom at the commencement of the
20 next session.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we move into private session for just a short
23 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 We'll take the break and come back at half past 12.00.
14 Court adjourned.
15 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
19 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Our colleague, Mr. Menon, will be leading this witness in direct
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 May the witness please make the declaration.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I solemnly declare that
25 I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: ENVER BERBIC
2 [The witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Menon.
4 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Examination by Mr. Menon:
6 Q. Mr. Berbic, would you state your full name for the record?
7 A. My name is Enver Berbic.
8 Q. And what is your date of birth and place of birth?
9 A. I was born on the 18th of November, 1957, in Kakanj.
10 Q. And, Mr. Berbic, were you ever a member of the Administration of
11 the Military Security Service of the Main Staff of the ARBiH?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. And when did you join the Military Security Service
15 A. I joined the Military Security Service Administration, or rather,
16 was appointed to it in July --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreter didn't hear
18 the year. Could the witness please approach the microphone.
19 MR. MENON:
20 Q. Mr. Berbic, the interpreter did not hear the year that you stated
21 that you joined the Military Security Service Administration, and the
22 interpreter also requested that you speak into the microphone.
23 A. 1994.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berbic. And when you joined the Military Security
25 Service Administration, where were you based?
1 A. I was based, or rather, that part of the administration was based,
2 at the Kakanj command post.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berbic. And when you joined -- when you joined the
4 Military Security Service Administration, who was the chief of that
6 A. When I joined the Military Security Service Administration, the
7 chief of the administration was General Jasarevic.
8 Q. And where was Mr. Jasarevic based?
9 A. The headquarters of the administration and of Mr. Jasarevic was in
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berbic. Can you describe how the administration of
12 the Military Security Service was organised?
13 A. I will try to describe it because I do not remember the exact
14 details of the establishment structure, but I do remember that the
15 Military Security Administration had departments.
16 Q. And can you name those departments?
17 A. The first department was for counterintelligence affairs or
18 something to that effect.
19 Q. And do you know what the other --
20 A. The second department was for staff security and military police
21 affairs, and the third department was the analytical affairs department.
22 These departments, in turn, had divisions or sections. I do not remember
23 what sections the first department comprised; but the department to which
24 I belonged, there was a section for staff security affairs and a section
25 for military police affairs, as well as a general affairs section.
1 Q. And can you clarify which department you belonged to?
2 A. I was appointed to the section of staff security and military
3 police affairs.
4 Q. And where were the heads of these departments based?
5 A. The heads of these departments were based in Sarajevo; but as the
6 need arose, they would also relocate to the Kakanj command post.
7 Q. And can you also clarify which section of the staff security and
8 military police department you worked in?
9 A. I worked in the section for staff security affairs.
10 Q. Thank you. And I just want to go back and -- go back to an answer
11 that you'd given earlier.
12 You indicated that Mr. Jasarevic was the chief of the Military
13 Security Administration. Can you -- what was Mr. Jasarevic's first name?
14 A. His first name was Jusuf.
15 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Berbic. Now, you indicated that you
16 worked in the section for staff security affairs. Who was your immediate
17 superior in that position?
18 A. My immediate superior was the chief of the section for staff and
19 security affairs, Mr. Refik Cesko.
20 Q. And where was Mr. Refik Cesko based?
21 A. At the time when I arrived at the Kakanj command post, he was
23 Q. Now, in Kakanj, was there a particular building in which you were
24 based; and if so, do you know the name of that building?
25 A. We were based together with the other administrations and other
1 departments in a building which was actually a motel, and the motel's name
2 was "Sretno."
3 Q. And while you were based in Kakanj, were you always located in
4 this particular building that you've referred to as Motel Sretno?
5 A. Well, sometime in mid-1995, we moved to a building which was
6 actually a private house not far from the Sretno Motel, and we had our
7 rooms there.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berbic. Now, how many people worked within the
9 Military Security Service Administration in Kakanj during your time there?
10 A. The number varied. It changed from situation to situation, but
11 mainly, as a rule, there would be three to four men there.
12 Q. And which departments of the Military Security Service
13 Administration did these three to four people work in?
14 A. From the first department, there was one representative. From my
15 own department, there were two of us, and there were one or two from the
16 military police section, which is to say also from my department.
17 Occasionally, this number would change; namely, that number would
18 occasionally increase.
19 Q. Can you clarify what you -- what you're referring to when you say
20 "the first department"?
21 A. From the first department, there would be someone who dealt with
22 counterintelligence protection of the command post.
23 Q. What was the name -- when you say "first department," what was the
24 name of that department? What was the formal name of that department?
25 A. I have already said that I don't know the exact name, but, more or
1 less, it was department for counterintelligence protection or for
2 counterintelligence affairs.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berbic. Can you explain to us now what the
4 function -- what function the Military Security Service Administration,
5 that part of it that was based in Kakanj, what function it served?
6 A. Well, in its work, a part of the department at the Kakanj command
7 post focused on staff security and military security work, meaning
8 security checks of members that would be recruited for the needs of the
9 units or for the needs of the General Staff; also maintaining records on
10 passes and on entries and exits to and from the Kakanj command post;
11 monitoring -- or rather, escorting convoys. We were the ones who did the
12 organising, and the actual escorting was done by the military police;
13 security -- provision of security for the command post and all the
14 facilities within it.
15 We participated in the actual -- in the preparation of the actual
16 plans, and the actual support and security provision was provided by the
17 military police unit. We also participated to the compiling of a part of
18 the report -- of the reports that would be addressed to the addressees
19 that we had in Sarajevo. I believe, one of those addressees was the
20 Presidency in Sarajevo. We participated in the work of the Operations
21 Centre at the Kakanj command post, and that's it.
22 Q. And when you say "reports," what kind of reports are you referring
24 A. These were regular, daily combat reports.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berbic. Did General Delic maintain an office at
2 A. In Kakanj, at -- in a facility that we called "DC," there were
3 some rooms which were intended for Commander Delic.
4 Q. And when you say "DC," what does that stand for?
5 A. This abbreviation actually stands for "Distribution Centre." That
6 is a company that used to be there prior to the war.
7 Q. And beyond General Delic, who else was based -- was there anyone
8 else that had an office at the distribution centre?
9 A. Apart from General Delic, the Chief of Staff, General
10 Hadzihasanovic, also had his offices on the first floor of the
11 distribution centre, and for a while also some people from the Operations
13 Q. And where, in relation to General Hadzihasanovic's office, was
14 General Delic's office?
15 A. Well, that will take some remembering, if you'll bear with me. I
16 believe that they were quite close to one another.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berbic.
18 MR. MENON: I would ask now that the witness be shown Exhibit
19 P01832. If we could get the whole document on the screen, at least the
20 whole -- thank you.
21 Q. Mr. Berbic, do you see the document in front of you?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. What kind of document is this?
24 A. I have to note the remark that this is the first time that I see
25 this document, apart from when I was shown it by the investigators, so
1 that I can just read what it is about.
2 This is a regular combat report.
3 Q. And for the record, what's the date of this document?
4 A. The 8th of November [as interpreted], 1994.
5 Q. Are you sure that it's November? Can you look at it again?
6 A. No, no. This is October.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The interpreter made
8 the mistake. Sorry.
9 MR. MENON:
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berbic. And which corps is this document
11 originating from?
12 A. It says here "3rd Corps Command."
13 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would note, for the record, that the
14 translation doesn't indicate the corps. But if Your Honour were to --
15 Your Honours were to refer to the B/C/S version of the document, at the
16 upper left-hand part of the document, second line, I believe that's what
17 the witness referred to when I put the question to him.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Menon.
19 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Berbic, I want to refer you now to the upper part of the
21 document on the right-hand side of it. That part of the document
22 indicates that this document was intended for -- one of the recipients of
23 this document was to be the command post in Kakanj.
24 Based upon your experience in Kakanj, what would be -- what would
25 happen to a document such as this once it reached that command post?
1 A. Well, specifically in regard of this particular date, I have no
2 experience, because this was something that was sent immediately after I
3 had come and I was not versed in these things. But generally speaking,
4 reports like these would come to the Operations Centre.
5 Q. And what would happen once the document arrived at the Operations
7 A. Other documents and similar documents would also come there; then
8 the representatives of the different administrations at the Kakanj command
9 post, as well as those who were in charge of these things, would read
10 these reports; then everybody would process a number of reports in line
11 with their particular segment, which was their -- which they were in
12 charge of; and then they would compile a consolidated report which would
13 be submitted to the superior.
14 Q. And when you say "other documents and similar documents," can you
15 clarify what relationship those other documents and similar documents
16 would have to a daily combat report such as this?
17 A. This is a regular daily combat report of one corps. I don't
18 remember how many there were then, at that time, how many directly
19 subordinated units to the Staff of the Supreme Command there were, that
20 is, but they all had to submit such reports, these reports, in this form.
21 Q. And then the consolidated report, what would be done with the
22 consolidated report once it was prepared?
23 A. I say that it would be submitted to the superiors. It would be
24 submitted to the Presidency; and if I remember correctly, I can't claim
25 that with certainty, it was also submitted to the commander in Sarajevo
1 and perhaps to some other addresses as well which I cannot recall at this
2 moment. This was a sublimated report of all the reports which were
3 received from different quarters at the Kakanj command post.
4 Q. And when you say "the command in Sarajevo," can you indicate --
5 can you just clarify whom you're referring to, the person that you're
6 referring to?
7 A. I am referring to Commander Delic.
8 Q. And if General Delic were to be in Kakanj, do you know how -- the
9 process by which the document -- the consolidated report would be
10 transmitted to him?
11 A. I do not remember that, so that I could only speculate.
12 Q. Okay. I'll move on, then.
13 MR. MENON: If we could move the document, the B/C/S version of
14 the document, a little bit to the right, and if we could scroll down on
15 the English version of the document.
16 Q. Mr. Berbic, I'm going to refer you to the section, it's labelled
17 "Number 2" and it says "Our Forces," if you could read the third sentence
18 under that section.
19 MR. MENON: And I'll note for the record that the sentence THAT
20 Mr. Berbic is going to read on the English version of the document, that
21 carries on to page 2.
22 Q. And the sentence begins: "The units and the command," if you
23 could just read that.
24 A. "The units and the command of OG3-North are performing the link-up
25 of defence lines between the ..." I can't see the number, but it says
1 "...Light Brigade and the El Mujahid Detachment. And the command of the
2 319th Mountain Brigade is preparing for attack," combat activity, "on the
3 Cungar facility," if I pronounced that correctly.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berbic.
5 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would ask this document be tendered
6 into it.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
8 please be given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 361.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 MR. MENON: I would ask that the witness now be shown Exhibit
13 Q. Mr. Berbic, do you see the document in front of you?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. And can you indicate again what kind of document this is?
16 A. It says here in the document's title "Regular Daily Combat
18 Q. And, for the record, can you just indicate what the date of the
19 document is?
20 A. The date is the 3rd of April, 1995.
21 Q. And from which -- from which corps is this document coming --
23 A. Well, on the basis of what is written here, this document was sent
24 from the Command of the 3rd Corps.
25 Q. And I'll note that this document is addressed to the command post
1 in Kakanj. You've just indicated a process that regular daily combat
2 reports would go through once they arrived there. Would that same process
3 apply to this particular combat report?
4 A. There are changes here in respect to the previous document. That
5 one bore the designation "Supreme Command Staff," and here it says "the
6 General Staff of the ARBiH," and the document is addressed to the
7 Operations Centre. This "OC" which is indicated in the documents stands
8 for that.
9 Q. But this document is addressed to Kakanj. Do you agree with me or
10 do you disagree with me?
11 A. Yes, I do. It was addressed to Kakanj.
12 Q. And can you indicate if -- to the extent that the process that
13 would apply to this document, to the extent that it would differ from the
14 process that would apply to the other document upon arrival in Kakanj, can
15 you explain what that difference may be, if any?
16 A. I cannot explain this difference with certainty because I do not
17 recall the period, and then I did not participate in the processing of
18 reports that concerned the Military Security Service, as far as the first,
19 the previous document is concerned, that is.
20 And as regards this document, all the reports would flow into the
21 Operations Centre. I am talking about regular daily combat reports. They
22 would be sent by the directly-subordinated units, and then they would
23 arrive at the Operations Centre. There, a team consisting of
24 representatives of administrations that were in charge of the individual
25 chapters in this report would examine all the reports; and then what was
1 of the essence and the most important, the gist of these things would then
2 go into the joint report and be the substance of the joint report. This
3 completed report would then be submitted to Sarajevo.
4 Q. And just for the sake of clarification, can you indicate, to the
5 best of your knowledge, whom those -- whom the addressees in Sarajevo
6 would be?
7 A. I believe that such reports would be sent to Sarajevo, to
8 Commander Delic, and the Presidency.
9 MR. MENON: Thank you.
10 I would ask that we move to page 2 of the B/C/S version of this
11 document and page 3 of the English version of the document.
12 And, Your Honour, I would refer the witness to the last sentence
13 of the first paragraph, and the equivalent of that in the English version
14 is the last sentence of the second paragraph under the section entitled
15 "Situation and Activities of the 3rd Corps Forces."
16 Q. Mr. Berbic, can you read out --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. First of
19 all, I believe the questions that were already posed were legitimate.
20 However, I would object to this one, since the Prosecutor did not
21 establish the foundation of the witness's knowledge. We don't know
22 whether the witness knows anything about the deployment of this specific
23 unit and its activities.
24 First of all, we have to establish whether he is familiar with
25 that and then follow up with the questions.
1 As for the document itself, we, as well as you, can read for
2 yourselves what is stated therein, and the witness is not needed here to
3 read it for us.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure I understand the objection,
5 Madam Vidovic. If the witness can deal with this document, he can be
6 asked anything in the document and he can tell us if he does know or does
7 not know. Why do you want to preempt him telling us whether he does know
8 or doesn't know anything that is in the document, if you don't object to
9 him going through the document and you object to a specific matter in the
10 document? I don't understand that objection.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am objecting against
12 questions being put to the witness without a foundation being laid, and
13 the Prosecutor did the same with the previous document. He merely asked
14 the witness to read out what is stated therein, without establishing any
15 foundation; although, the witness himself said, concerning that last
16 document, that he knows nothing about that and that he saw it for the
17 first time during proofing.
18 And now, again, we are in the situation of the same kind. There
19 was no foundation as to whether the witness knew anything at all about the
20 combat activities or the El Mujahid Detachment. He's only being asked to
21 read it for the transcript.
22 My objection, thus, is, first of all, to establish any foundation,
23 then the link to this witness, and then to put a question. And we can all
24 read the document for ourselves.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Madam Vidovic. I now understand you.
1 Mr. Menon.
2 MR. MENON: Your Honour, the guidelines that were issued by the
3 Chamber set the standard in order to tender the document into evidence of
4 showing a relation between the document and the witness. I think I've
5 done that. I was simply having the witness -- I wanted to simply have the
6 witness recite a passage from the document which is relevant and which
7 speaks for itself.
8 If the Defence wants to contest that by putting questions to the
9 witness about his knowledge in relation to that specific passage, I think
10 that they can do that in cross-examination. I'm not asking the witness to
11 give his opinion on it.
12 So as long as the document is in evidence or the foundation has
13 been laid for the document to be tendered into evidence, I think it's
14 legitimate for the witness to simply recite a particular passage to assist
15 Your Honours in seeing the relevance of this document.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm trying to read the foundation you laid for this
18 You said, sir: "Do you see the document in front of you?"
19 "Yes, I do."
20 "Can you indicate again what type of document it is?
21 "It says here in the document, the document's title, 'Regular
22 Daily Combat Report.'"
23 "And for the record, can you indicate what is the date of the
25 "The date is the 3rd."
1 "And from which corps is the document coming -- originating?"
2 "Well, on the basis of what is written here, this document was
3 sent from the..." That's the answer.
4 "And I note that this document is addressed to the command post in
5 Kakanj." That's you asking. "You're just indicated a process that regular
6 daily combat reports would go through once they arrived there. Would that
7 same process apply to this particular combat report?"
8 Is that the foundation you're saying you laid for --
9 MR. MENON: I think so, Your Honour. If this witness can speak to
10 the route that this document would take once it arrived in Kakanj and what
11 would be done with this document once it arrived there, and how further
12 reports would be compiled based upon this document, I think that's a
13 sufficient relation between the document and the witness.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I respond?
16 There needs to be a specific link between this document and the
17 witness. The witness spoke in principle about the procedure that
18 documents went through. As for this specific document, I haven't heard
19 the witness say that he knows of it or that he had received it.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think that's the nub of Madam Vidovic's
21 objection, Mr. Menon. Do you have anything to say to that?
22 MR. MENON: Your Honour, this was a regular daily combat report.
23 So these documents would have been coming in to Kakanj on a daily basis,
24 and so I'm not sure if this witness is in a position to frankly remember
25 every document that he might have seen, especially a document that was
1 coming into Kakanj on a daily basis, if he would be able to remember
2 specifically the content of each of those documents.
3 And so in that regard, I would think that it's legitimate to at
4 least have the witness describe the process that these types of daily
5 documents would take once they arrived in Kakanj.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I? This is
7 precisely our problem as well. We are not quite certain whether the
8 witness can recall each and every document. That is why it is important
9 to lay a foundation in order to be able to examine this witness as to each
10 and every document or any document.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Menon, what was your question when Madam
13 Vidovic first objected?
14 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I didn't actually hear the question that
15 you posed to me.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm so sorry. I haven't switched on my microphone.
17 My question was: What was your question when Madam Vidovic first
19 MR. MENON: I was actually directing the witness to the -- to a
20 relevant portion of the text of this document, and I was going to have the
21 witness read that text for the record. And I'll just note, again, that I
22 was of the view that I had laid a proper foundation for the document to be
23 tendered into evidence, and that's why I waited until this -- until that
24 point to actually have him -- and that's why I waited until that point to
25 have him recite the -- recite the particular passage. But I didn't
1 actually indicate which specific part of the document he was to look at.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Menon, are you interested in the procedure of
3 the filing of this document only or are we going to be addressing the
4 contents as well?
5 MR. MENON: Your Honour, well, not through this witness, and I
6 think this witness can certainly speak to the procedure that was applied
7 to these documents, and I think that's -- that's a sufficient basis for
8 them to be tendered into evidence. But there will certainly be other
9 witnesses who will be able to speak -- who may not be able to speak to
10 this specific document but will at least be able to speak to events that
11 have a relationship to this document.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: But my question was: If there is any part of the
13 contents of this document that we need to discuss with this witness.
14 MR. MENON: No.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your point is that this is a document that, in the
16 course -- the normal course, would have arrived at the Kakanj forward
17 command in the department that this gentleman worked in; is that it?
18 MR. MENON: I haven't put that question -- I haven't put that
19 particular question to the witness, but the witness was aware of the -- of
20 the procedure that was applied to these particular documents.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And this is a document that would have been
22 received at Kakanj forward command?
23 MR. MENON: It's addressed to the command post in Kakanj, and so
24 that's why I put the question to the witness.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is overruled.
1 MR. MENON:
2 Q. Now, Mr. Berbic, I'm going to direct you, again, to a portion of
3 the text that I'd just like you to read out for the record.
4 MR. MENON: And, again, on the English, it's the last sentence of
5 the second paragraph under the section entitled "Situation and Activities
6 of 3rd Corps Forces"; and in the B/C/S version, it's the last sentence of
7 the first paragraph.
8 Q. Could you read that sentence out?
9 A. I didn't quite understand. What word does the sentence begin
11 Q. The sentence begins with: "The whole numerical strength."
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where are we? Okay, I see it. Do you see it,
14 MR. MENON:
15 Q. Mr. Berbic, it's the --
16 A. Your Honour, I cannot locate that.
17 Q. It's the last sentence of the -- do you see the first paragraph on
18 that page, Mr. Berbic?
19 A. I see here subparagraphs (b), (c), and (d), and there is a
20 paragraph on top without any designation.
21 Q. It's the top paragraph. I just want to have you to read out the
22 last sentence of that paragraph.
23 A. The last sentence is: "Manoeuvring Battalions."
24 I presume that is the sentence. In B/C/S, it begins with:
25 "Manoeuvre Battalions."
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The words change in
2 English. That's why the words do not correspond.
3 MR. MENON:
4 Q. Can you read out that sentence, Mr. Berbic?
5 A. I can if this is the sentence: "The whole numerical strength of
6 the Manoeuvre Battalions and the El Mujahid Detachment are located in the
7 deployment sectors to conduct reconnaissance and prepare for the
8 forthcoming combat operations."
9 MR. MENON: I would ask that this document be tendered into
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
12 please be given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 362.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 MR. MENON: If the witness could now be shown Exhibit P02245.
16 Q. Mr. Berbic, what is the -- what kind of document is this?
17 A. This is a similar document to the previous one. It reads in the
18 title "Daily Regular Combat Report."
19 Q. And what's the date of this document?
20 A. The 16th of June, 1995.
21 Q. And which corps is this documented originating from?
22 A. It says "Command of the 3rd Corps."
23 Q. And this document is addressed to Kakanj. Now, we've discussed a
24 particular process that would be applied to documents, to daily combat
25 reports arriving in Kakanj. Would that process apply to this document as
2 A. The same, yes. Regular daily combat reports are gathered, and
3 then a summary or a joint report is being made. The procedure is the
5 Q. And can you indicate what role you played in that process?
6 A. Given the date of this document, at the time I was still the
7 section desk officer. The person sent to the Operations Centre to work
8 with these reports was usually the head of the security department in
9 Kakanj. If he was unable to go, others would. Therefore, I cannot tell
10 you anything in particular as to what my role was in regard -- as regards
11 this report.
12 Q. No, but I'm speaking about in general. In your time in Kakanj,
13 did there come a time when you had a role in terms of daily combat
15 A. Yes, there were.
16 Q. And can you indicate what your role was?
17 A. My role was to read the whole report and take note of its
18 contents. And the part referred to as "security situation," I believe it
19 can be found in this report as well. I would extract that portion from
20 all of the reports, and I would have to take out the most important
21 information, put it in summary form; and together with the representatives
22 of other administrations, we were supposed to compile the final report.
23 Q. And who was the -- who was the head of the security service in
24 Kakanj at this time, as of the date of this document?
25 A. He wasn't called "head of the security service." He was called
1 "the head of a part of the security service located at Kakanj." Do you
2 mean that person?
3 Q. Yes, yes. Who is that person?
4 A. As far as I can recall, it was Mr. Refik Cesko.
5 MR. MENON: And I would now refer the witness to -- on the
6 English, it's going to be on the top of page 3; and on the B/C/S, it's
7 page 1. It's the last section or the last sentence under the section
8 entitled "The Situation and Activities of the 3rd Corps Forces."
9 Q. Do you see the sentence, Mr. Berbic? It begins: "In the Command
10 of the 35th Division."
11 A. No. The title reads "The 35th Division" and then follows the
12 text. But I don't see yes see where it says "In the Command of the 35th
14 Now I see it, yes.
15 Q. It's the last sentence. If you could read out the last sentence.
16 A. "In the Command of the 35th Division, a meeting was held regarding
17 the preparations and carrying out of forthcoming combat activities in
18 which the El Mujahedin Detachment, the 328th Mountain Brigade, and the
19 329th Mountain Brigade will take part."
20 However, this is not the part of the report that we would usually
22 MR. MENON: Thank you.
23 Your Honours, I would ask that this document be tendered into
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
1 please be given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 363.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 MR. MENON: I would ask now that the witness be shown Exhibit
6 Q. Mr. Berbic, do you see the document in front of you?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. And what kind of document is this?
9 A. This document is entitled "Daily Report."
10 Q. Does it differ from the documents -- is it a different -- does it
11 have a different nature than the documents we just looked at?
12 A. In form, it is different, and the addressees differ.
13 MR. MENON: Can we go to page 7 of the B/C/S and page 12 of the
15 Q. Mr. Berbic, do you see -- if you could look at the bottom section
16 of that document, to whom is this document addressed? To whom is it to be
18 A. It says that it should be delivered to the Security Administration
19 of the Main Staff of the ARBH. Next, I don't know if it says "UB" or
20 "OB," since the acronyms would mean different things then.
21 Perhaps, we can zoom in. "OB KM Kakanj."
22 The third addressee is the 3rd Corps Military Security Service
23 organ, "OAIP." I believe it was the organ that drafted the report.
24 Q. Can you clarify what "OB KM Kakanj" stands for?
25 A. "OB" could mean "Security Organ." "UB" means "Security
2 Q. And to whom within the Military Security Administration in Kakanj
3 would this document have gone to?
4 A. I don't know. It was sent to the administration; but to whom
5 exactly, I don't know.
6 MR. MENON: If we could go back to the first page of the document.
7 Q. If you'll note, Mr. Berbic, the document is dated the 21st of
8 July, 1995. Do you know, as of that date, does that assist you in
9 answering the question that I just posed to you, in terms of who this
10 document would have gone to?
11 A. In the heading, it says "Security Administration, Main Staff of
12 the ARBiH." It is possible that a copy went to Sarajevo and another to
14 Q. Do you know -- my question to you was: Do you know whom, within
15 Kakanj, would have received this document? Would it have been treated the
16 same way as the daily combat reports, or would it have been treated in a
17 different way?
18 A. I don't know who in Kakanj received this report. If anyone, it
19 must have been someone from the administration in Kakanj. And the
20 procedure with this document would be different, since this document was
21 sent by the security department of the 3rd Corps to the Security
23 As for the others who compiled daily combat reports and who worked
24 on that, to them this document was not forwarded.
25 Q. Mr. Berbic, are you familiar with the process that would have been
1 applied to this particular document and which you just referred to in
2 general in your answer?
3 A. This is a document which concerns the Military Security Service.
4 What were the -- what process the document and the information contained
5 in it would undergo from that moment would be indicated by his remark or
6 mark on the document by the head of the administration. That is the
7 procedure that we apply.
8 So there is no team that would be perusing this report; although,
9 a team could be attached for that particular purpose, not perhaps -- not
10 perhaps a complete team, but for the daily report, which is the essential
12 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would just ask that this document be
13 marked for identification. I'll move on.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is marked for identification. May it
15 please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 364 marked for
18 MR. MENON:
19 Q. Mr. Berbic, were there instances when you had the responsibility
20 of transmitting information from General Jasarevic to General Delic in
22 A. There were situations where I needed to submit some documents, but
23 in the period from the time when I became -- assumed the post of the head
24 of a part -- of a segment of the Security Administration which was located
25 at the Kakanj command post.
1 Q. And can you indicate when you assumed this post of the head of a
2 part of the segment of the Security Administration?
3 A. I believe that this was in October 1995.
4 Q. And in your -- in a previous answer that you had given, you said:
5 "Where I needed to submit some documents."
6 Can you explain what kinds of documents these were? Can you
7 elaborate on that answer?
8 A. There have been some situations also prior to my assumption of
9 this leading duty at the post, when my superior at the Kakanj command post
10 simply gave me an envelope, and then he would tell me to take it to the DC
11 and that it be handed over there, to the people there.
12 So, at that time, I would just simply take that envelope and take
13 it there, and I did this a couple of times, as did others as well.
14 Q. And who is your superior? Who are you referring to when you say
15 "my superior"?
16 A. My superior during that time period was the head of the section.
17 That was Refik Cesko.
18 Q. And for the purpose of clarification, these documents and
19 envelope -- in the envelope, these would be coming from General Jasarevic
20 in Sarajevo; is that correct?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection. The
23 witness said that he would be given a closed -- a sealed envelope, so I
24 don't know how he would be able to tell whether it was from General
25 Jasarevic or from somebody else.
1 MR. MENON: Your Honour, the first question that I posed to the
2 witness was: "Mr. Berbic, were there instances when you had the
3 responsibility of transmitting information from General Jasarevic to
4 General Delic?"
5 And so I just -- the witness had referred to some documents coming
6 in an envelope, and I just wanted to clarify that he understood that my --
7 that I was still relating to the first question that I had posed to him.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 The objection is overruled.
10 MR. MENON:
11 Q. Mr. Berbic, can you answer the question that I had posed to you?
12 And the question was whether these documents and envelopes were the ones
13 coming from General Jasarevic.
14 A. So during this period, before I assumed this leading post, I would
15 simply be given sealed envelopes, and I would take them to the DC. I was
16 not privy to what was in it, who was sending what, and to whom. It wasn't
17 important for me.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question was -- okay. Were you given these
19 documents by Mr. Jasarevic or somebody else?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these documents would
21 be given to me by my immediate superior, Mr. Cesko, to either me, myself,
22 or someone of a similar rank, for us to personally take them so as to
23 avoid the regular channels.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 Yes, Mr. Menon.
1 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. And, Mr. Berbic, can you explain in a little more detail how you
3 would go about transmitting the information to General Delic?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this was a markedly
6 leading question. He referred to the DC, and he did not refer to General
8 MR. MENON: I can rephrase the question, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Menon.
10 By the way, what did you say the DC is? I know you explained it,
11 but I forgot.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, "DC" stands for
13 Distribution Centre." That was the firm previously.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 MR. MENON:
16 Q. And, Mr. Berbic, just for clarification, who had offices in the
18 A. I said, at the beginning, that at the DC were the offices of
19 Commander Delic. He had his office there; the Chief of Staff had, and
20 that was General Hadzihasanovic; as well as some officers of the
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berbic. I'm going to ask the question I posed to
23 you earlier. I'm going to do it again. How would you go about delivering
24 these documents to the DC and, I suppose, to General Delic's office in the
1 A. I took this document with the intention of handing it over --
2 delivering it to General Delic if he was there, and I didn't know whether
3 he was or not. But in the majority of cases, I would give that document
4 to the Chief of Staff or to one of the Operations Administration officers.
5 Q. And, Mr. Berbic, once that document was consumed by the -- by
6 whomever you had delivered it to, would you have any further
7 responsibilities in relation to that document?
8 A. Well, I've already said that it wasn't just me that delivered that
9 document or such documents, as actually it was up to the superiors to see
10 to the delivery of documents and the procedure surrounding it. I really
11 am not privy to what happened to the document, at the time, afterwards.
12 Q. Mr. Berbic, I'll ask one more question before we break for the
14 We've been referring to these -- we've been referring to them as
15 "documents." Do these documents have a specific name?
16 A. I had no way of knowing then, when I was given this envelope to
17 take to a specific place, what it was about. I could only assume. What
18 my obligation was, was to directly deliver it, but there was no way of my
19 being able to know what was in it.
20 Q. I'm not speaking of the contents of the document. I'm just
21 speaking about a title that was applied to the document. What was it
22 called, if you know?
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has
25 repeatedly stated that it was a sealed envelope, so I fail to see how the
1 witness could have seen the title, if I understand the question well, that
3 MR. MENON: I'll be showing the witness a document which will
4 certainly suggest that he was aware of the title of these documents, and
5 so I wanted to lay the foundation.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You see, I think you should lay the foundation for
7 that document; and when the witness has seen that document, then you can
8 ask this question.
9 MR. MENON: Okay.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I think you're going in reverse now.
11 MR. MENON: Okay. I guess it's past 1.45.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is.
13 Okay. Sir, we have come to the end of the day for today. You'll
14 have to come back tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning. Okay?
15 Court adjourned to tomorrow at 9.00 in this courtroom.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Friday, the 14th day of
18 September, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.