1 Thursday, 20 September 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, everybody. Hopefully they will be
6 making space in this court.
7 Mr. Registrar, can you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is
9 case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 Could we have the appearances for today, starting with the
12 Prosecution, please.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your
14 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the
15 Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, assisted by my case manager, Alma Imamovic.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 For the Defence?
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
19 afternoon to my learned friends of the Prosecution, to everyone in and
20 around the courtroom. Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson on behalf of
21 General Delic, with our legal assistant, Lana Deljkic.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see the witness has just walked into court. May
25 the witness make the declaration.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, sir. You may be seated.
4 WITNESS: SEAD DELIC
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
7 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Examination by Mr. Mundis:
9 Q. Good afternoon, sir. For the record, can you please state your
10 full name, spelling your last name, please.
11 A. Your Honours, my name is Sead Delic. S-e-a-d D-e-l-i-c.
12 Q. Mr. Delic, can you please state your place of birth and date of
14 A. I was born on the 13th of September, 1954 in the town of Gorazde,
15 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
16 Q. Mr. Delic, are you related to the accused, Rasim Delic, in this
18 A. No, not in any way. I am not related to General Rasim Delic. We
19 were born in different parts of -- of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He was born in
20 the north, and I was born in the south-east of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
21 Q. Sir, can you please briefly tell the Trial Chamber about your
22 career from the time you left school until the present time.
23 A. In several sentences, I would tell you that my career consisted of
24 the following: In 1977 I completed the military academy for land forces
25 in Belgrade after four years of attendance. Then I was promoted to the
1 lowest officer rank, this being second lieutenant. After that, I served
2 in Tuzla, where I was appointed commander of the reconnaissance platoon or
3 company. I stayed there for three years. After that, in the same town,
4 in the same corps and the same division, for six years I was company
5 commander at the corps for detachment leaders. After that, I was for two
6 years battalion commander in the same town in the same unit.
7 In 1989 I was sent to school again at the Command Staff Academy
8 for Ground Forces in Belgrade, where I spent two years, between 1989 and
9 1991, until June of that year.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The various positions held by the witness in Tuzla
11 were in which army?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This all pertains to the pre-war
13 period, when I was an active duty officer with the JNA in the former
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. We can proceed, Mr. Mundis.
16 MR. MUNDIS:
17 Q. Sir, you left off at the point where you were telling us about
18 attendance at the Command Staff Academy for Ground Forces in Belgrade,
19 from 1989 until 19 -- until June 1991. Can you tell the Trial Chamber
20 what you did after June 1991.
21 A. Upon completing the Command Staff Academy, I was assigned to a new
22 duty in Croatia in Varadzin, to the corps. At that corps I was with them
23 until the 15th or 16th of September, 1992; that is, from July until
24 September 1991. And I took part in the initial combat activities in the
25 territory of the Republic of Croatia.
1 In 1991, in the corps command, where I was assigned assistant
2 staff commander for operational and educational affairs, I was wounded and
3 I was transferred to the military medical academy in Belgrade. I was
4 treated there for about 32 or 33 days, after which I returned to Tuzla.
5 As after the 1st of December until the 10th of April, the 1st of
6 December, 1991, until the 10th of April, I stayed there. And at that --
7 on that date, I officially left the JNA. During that period, I worked
8 half time four hours a day, and the rest was spent at various treatments
9 that I had to undergo because of the wounding.
10 I left the JNA on the 10th of April, 1992 officially, having
11 turned over all of the documentation during the four previous days. I
12 simply decided that that armed force was no longer the same armed force
13 that I pledged to serve because of all the things it did to various people
14 in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. I decided I no longer wanted to stay
15 with that army.
16 I handed over the rules, all of the documentation, as well as
17 equipment that I was issued with, and I left the Yugoslav People's Army.
18 On the 14th of April, 1992, I joined the then-Territorial Defence
19 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or rather, to the Territorial Defence of Tuzla
20 municipality, although even before that day I had contacts with that
21 organisation. Between the 14th and the 19th; however, there is an order
22 dated the 22nd of April as well -- in that period, I was elected by the
23 Crisis Staff of the Municipality of Tuzla to act as military advisor with
24 an additional two officers.
25 On the 19th of April, on the recommendation, or rather,
1 appointment, since there was no other possibility at the time, I was
2 appointed to a new duty by the head of municipality, Mr. Beslagic. I was
3 appointed commander of the Municipal Staff of the Territorial Defence of
4 Tuzla, which was newly formed after the former TO had been disbanded and
5 the new one formed. Between that date and until the end of the war, I had
6 the following duties: Commander of the TO Tuzla Municipal Staff, which
7 later was renamed to become the 5th operational group of the 2nd Corps of
8 the Army of BH. And in October 1994, I was appointed commander of the
9 2nd Corps.
10 I stayed there until the end of the war, according to the wartime
11 establishment. Once the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina was over, I
12 remained at the position of commander of the 2nd Corps of the Army of the
13 Federation until the 1st of October, 2000. As of that date, on my
14 request, I was retired, after which I had several different duties and
15 jobs, such as lecturer at the University of Tuzla. Apart from that, in
16 2002. I was elected to the Federation parliament, where I spent four
17 years. I was deputy at the Federal Parliament. I am currently retired,
18 without any particular titles or obligations to attend to.
19 Q. Sir, at the time you retired from the Army of the Federation of
20 Bosnia and Herzegovina on 1 October 2000, what rank did you hold?
21 A. When I was retired, I was major general of the Army of the
22 Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
23 Q. Now, sir, can you tell us, at that point in time, in October 1994,
24 when you were appointed the commander of the 2nd Corps, can you briefly
25 tell us, sir, what the duties and responsibilities of a corps commander in
1 the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina consisted of?
2 A. Your Honours, it is very difficult to put it in a few sentences
3 only. I need to tell you, though - and you probably heard this from other
4 people - that during that period there was reorganisation. Before that,
5 the Territorial Defence had been disbanded as it existed and per tasks it
6 used to have in the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. A
7 new Territorial Defence was formed headed by Hasan Efendic, the
8 then-Minister for Territorial Defence. I believe the minister was
9 Jerko Doko.
10 Before the formation of the corps, what there was in existence was
11 the County Staff of the Territorial Defence. Its function was to try and
12 unify the activity of all units in the territory of the North-Eastern
13 Bosnia, the 13 municipality in that part of Bosnia. If need be, I can
14 enumerate them, starting with Tuzla being the centre, then Kladanj,
15 Teocak and the rest.
16 In any case, 13 municipalities. That county staff, or regional
17 staff, later became the 2nd Corps. As far as I can remember, an order on
18 formation of the 2nd Corps of the then-Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina took
19 place on the 29th of September, 1992.
20 The force was simply renamed. I don't think anything else of
21 significance took place. The same personnel, the same commands, with its
22 establishment changed to a lesser degree. It was simply assigned a new
23 name and a new role.
24 In brief, I wanted to say that the role of the corps at that time,
25 during wartime activities, boiled down to basically attempting to unify
1 all of the forces in the area of the North-Eastern Bosnia and to
2 coordinate resistance and defence against aggression.
3 At that period, one city and town were lost after another:
4 Zvornik, Bijeljina, Kalesija fell without fight, and they managed to reach
5 10 kilometres away from Tuzla. By the time the division was already in
6 place, the rift and the JNA had already armed all of the Serb population
7 and took up all key positions in various municipalities.
8 At that time, the main goal of the corps was to have all those 13
9 towns or municipalities to try and assist each other in reaching their
10 common goal. Before that time, such attempts were not in place.
11 For example, the people of Tuzla did not even try to defend
12 Bijeljina, because they were concerned for their own lives in Tuzla. In
13 Tuzla, there were several thousand soldiers and officers of the former
14 JNA. The story is long, but in essence the function of the corps boiled
15 down to trying to organise the whole area to defend itself. The corps had
16 nothing at its disposal. It had no logistics and the people who were in
17 the command of the corps even did not have their own meals. I provided
18 food for them from the Municipal Staff.
19 Each municipality had its own Crisis Staff and it managed it. As
20 far as the rest goes, the people at the top were there merely trying to do
21 whatever was possible at any given moment.
22 Q. General Delic, I appreciate the depth of knowledge that you bring
23 to these issues, but, sir, for the sake of time I'm going to ask you to
24 please focus on the questions - excuse me - that I ask and try to answer
25 those, and you'll be given ample opportunity to explain those answers if
1 the need arises.
2 But let me ask you this, sir: At the time you assumed command of
3 the 2nd Corps of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in
4 October 1994, how many men were in the 2nd Corps? How many men did you
5 have in your corps?
6 A. The situation -- the situation changed with time. It was not the
7 same thing to be in 1992 or in 1994. When I was appointed, I already had
8 around 86,000 people. Through additional reorganisation, parts of
9 operational groups would be made part of the corps, and then they would
11 In any case, the manning strength was around 80,000, the highest
12 figure being 86,000.
13 Q. And, General, where were the men in the 2nd Corps from? Where did
14 those men come from?
15 A. Members of the 2nd Corps came from the 13 municipality of what now
16 is the Tuzla canton, as well as the refugees from other parts of Bosnia
17 and Herzegovina and Yugoslavia.
18 Q. Sir, I would ask you now to focus your attention on the western
19 sector of the 2nd Corps area of responsibility, and can you tell the Trial
20 Chamber, please, the situation in the summer of 1995 on the western sector
21 of your, that is, the 2nd Corps area of responsibility ever. What was the
22 situation like there?
23 A. Your Honours, the summer of 1995, I would say, was the time when
24 the situation was most difficult in the area of responsibility of the
25 2nd Corps. In June there was a genocide committed over the Bosniaks in
1 the protected and demilitarised zone in Srebrenica and Zepa. The focus of
2 activity of the 2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was then
3 directed at that part of the front, trying to rescue civilians and some
4 military recruits which used the corridor to pass through the safe
5 territory. The forces merely tried to save those people.
6 As for the rest of the front, as stated by the Prosecutor, there
7 were combat operations in place of a lesser extent, trying to disable the
8 enemy to engage their full potential in the area of Srebrenica and Zepa.
9 If specifically you are asking me about the Vozuca pocket, I can
10 tell you that it represented a grave problem before the 2nd Corps and the
11 3rd Corps, since these were adjacent corps. The Vozuca pocket included
12 Mount Ozren, and valley of the Krivaja River and northwards to the Spreca,
13 the front line was around 100 kilometres and some four brigades were
14 permanently engaged there. Two, I believe, were within the 3rd Corps and
15 two within my corps, that is, the 2nd Corps.
16 That very pocket prevented us from establishing communication
17 between the regions of Zenica and Tuzla. The pocket was of high strategic
18 importance for us in order to be able to transfer some forces elsewhere
19 and to try and establish better communication with Zenica. Until that
20 time, we had to go via Vares and other areas in order to reach Zenica. It
21 was very difficult, since the terrain there is inaccessible and one could
22 only move about in off-road vehicles and in some trucks.
23 Some tunnels had to be worked on in order to make them bigger so
24 that the trucks could go through. Mount Zvjijezda is a very difficult
25 mountain to cross, and all that made the Vozuca pocket our priority.
1 Before I was appointed commander, several corps commanders tried to deal
2 with that problem unsuccessfully.
3 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now, with the assistance of the Registry
4 and the usher, if the witness could be shown the electronic version of
5 Exhibit 380. And I would ask that he be assisted with using the
6 electronic pen to make some markings on that map, please.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have the
8 electronic pen.
9 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please put the map into --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You were asked that were assisted --
11 MR. MUNDIS: If we could have the map into the middle part of the
12 map, please. No, don't zoom in, please. I want to see -- that's -- if we
13 could just go down a little bit.
14 Q. General, can you see that map before you on the screen?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see the map. But, please,
16 could we see it a little better, please? Closer?
17 MR. MUNDIS:
18 Q. Let me -- let me explain what I'm going to ask you to do, sir, and
19 I think that we perhaps could then zoom in to a particular part of the
20 map. I'm going to ask you if it's possible for you -- you've mentioned
21 Ozren. I'm wondering if you could on this map draw the possible locations
22 of what was known as the Ozren front in 1995. And if we need to zoom in a
23 little bit, we can, but -- we need to do that before. So if you can on
24 this map mark the entire Ozren front line.
25 A. Your Honours, I might be mistaken by a margin of 500 or 1,000
1 metres, because I'm not really familiar closely with the area of
2 responsibility of the 3rd Corps, but I'll try.
3 The front line went down the valley of Krivaja River, then from
4 the confluence of Krivaja River into Bosna River, and it was approximately
5 there, the valley of Bosna River from one side or the other in the
6 direction of Doboj.
7 Q. Sorry, General, but you can actually place that pen - it's an
8 electronic pen - on the screen and actually draw. If you could actually
9 draw on the screen the front line and -- and the places that you've just
10 indicated. So if you could actually just draw right on the screen with
11 the electronic pen, please.
12 A. Thank you. I understand. The problem here is I can't see the map
13 very well. It's too small.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me.
15 Yes, Mr. Robson.
16 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I wonder, before prosecuting counsel
17 goes any further with trying to get the witness to draw the front line,
18 bearing in mind what he said, that he was not familiar with the area of
19 responsibility of the 3rd Corps, could the Prosecutor establish whether he
20 was actually aware of where the front line was before he attempts -- he's
21 asked to actually attempt to draw that.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, I would draw your attention to line 10
23 of page 11, where he said I might be mistaken by a margin of 500 or 1000
24 metres. That certainly would imply, but I can ask him.
25 Q. General Delic, were you familiar with the general area of the
1 front line with respect to the 3rd Corps on the Ozren front?
2 A. Not the 3rd Corps but my own corps, yes; although, I was once also
3 on part of the line of responsibility in the Vozuca theatre of war and in
4 the 3rd Corps. Based on the documents I had access to, I can draw this
5 line roughly.
6 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, I would ask that the witness be allowed
7 to do that. And, again, we're simply -- we're simply offering this for
8 the general location of what the Ozren front was or area what the Ozren
9 front was that will assist with the witness's testimony so that we all
10 know when he talks about the Ozren front what he's talking about.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you asking the witness to draw the front line
12 of the 3rd Corps, or are you asking him to draw the Ozren front line, or
13 are you asking him to draw the front line of the 2nd Corps?
14 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, perhaps -- perhaps before I do that, let
15 me -- allow me to ask a couple of additional questions to the witness, and
16 I think it might be a little bit more clearer in terms of what exactly it
17 is I'm asking.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do, Mr. Mundis.
19 Q. General Delic, can you tell us which armed forces were aligned on
20 the Ozren front?
21 A. On the Ozren front, from the area of responsibility of the
22 2nd Corps of the BH army, there was the 223rd and 225th Brigades of the
23 2nd Corps of the BH army; that is, a brigade formed from the population of
24 Banovici municipality and one brigade formed from the population of
25 Lukavac municipality.
1 Q. What other armed forces were on or about the Ozren front?
2 A. I was talking about this part of the Vozuca operation, because I
3 thought that was of interest to you. But please bear in mind there was
4 another brigade from Gracanica municipality and Doboj east, which covered
5 the north and north-east in the direction of Doboj, down the valley of
6 Spreca River, defending the population of this municipality. So Banovici,
7 Lukavac, Gracanica, and Doboj East brigades.
8 Q. General Delic, other than ARBiH 2nd Corps units, what military
9 force or forces were deployed along the Ozren front?
10 A. From what I know, those were units of the 3rd Corps of the BH
11 army, which were then grouped in the 35th Division of the 3rd Corps. I'm
12 not only sure about the Olovo Brigade, but I believe that one too was in
13 the south-east part. Whether it formed part of the 31st Division or it
14 was part of the 1st Corps, I'm not sure, but it was located in this area
15 and engaged there for a while during the war.
16 Q. Other than the ARBiH units, sir, were there any other military
17 forces on the Ozren front?
18 A. Apart from the BH army, in that time of offensive operations, I
19 only heard about the El Mujahid Detachment, but no other units. I don't
20 think HVO units were part of these operations.
21 Q. Perhaps my question's not clear, sir, but the ARBiH units that
22 you've told us about from 2nd and 3rd Corps, were they opposed to any
23 other military forces on the Ozren front?
24 A. From what I know, no. There were Serbian forces that were
25 defending if that's what you meant, the Serb, Chetnik enemy forces, yes.
1 Certainly. I hadn't understood you at first.
2 Q. I gathered as much initially, sir. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm
3 talking about, these Serb Chetnik enemy forces as you've described them.
4 Were you generally familiar with the Ozren front in the period of the
5 summer of 1995?
6 A. Yes, I was familiar with that front.
7 Q. Approximately -- approximately how long was the front line at
8 Ozren, or the Ozren front line? How long was that front line?
9 A. Your Honours, I didn't measure it, but I reckon it is around 100
10 kilometres from beginning to end.
11 Q. What, sir, were the primary geographic features which delineated
12 the Ozren front line?
13 A. The main features, in my view, were these: That the former JNA,
14 before combat operations began, armed the entire population and brought
15 other people from the area of Doboj and Doboj itself, and they captured
16 the main elevations that controlled the valley of Bosna River and Spreca
17 River. Their main reliance militarily was on Mount Ozren, because it had
18 a dominant position between these two rivers and practically divided two
19 regions, two geographic regions: The region of Tuzla and the Zenica
20 region. And that was a lifeline in the economic sense and every other
21 sense, including, of course, militarily. You have to bear in mind that
22 Doboj is a communication hub of inestimable value for Tuzla, for instance,
23 because I personally think that Tuzla is communication-wise a dead-end,
24 because it does not have much importance in this area of Bosnia and
25 Herzegovina, despite its economic and the demographic potential.
1 So to conclude, Ozren and the Ozren front line was extremely
2 important. Vozuca is a small village on the way from Banovici to
3 Zavidovici villages in which half the population were Serbs, half were
4 Bosniaks. Bosniaks were immediately expelled as soon as the war started.
5 And for Serbs, it remained some sort of base. That's why you find
6 frequent references to Vozuca as the Vozuca pocket.
7 Q. General Delic, in light of the comments that you've just given us,
8 are you in a position, sir, to draw the rough front lines that constituted
9 the Ozren front in the summer of 1995?
10 A. If I say "yes," I don't think I'll be mistaken.
11 Q. I would ask you, sir, with that electronic pen to draw the Ozren
12 front line to the best of your recollection as it was in summer 1995.
13 A. [Marks] That would be roughly.
14 Q. Now, can you place, sir, what you've described as the Serb or
15 Chetnik forces, can you please write on the map where the Serb or Chetnik
16 forces were located in the summer of 1995.
17 A. Right here, where I drew these lines. So that is approximately
18 200, 300 metres to the east, north, and south. Those are the positions of
19 the BH army. And inside this pocket were enemy forces.
20 Q. Okay. That -- that's my question, sir: When you say "inside,"
21 can you please write the initials of the armed force that was inside.
22 Just write it right on the map, what -- the initials of the armed force
23 that was "inside," as you've put it.
24 A. I don't remember exactly the names of those brigades, but I know
25 there was a brigade from Pribava. It's this area here --
1 Q. Sorry, General, sorry to interrupt. I'm not particularly
2 interested in the brigades. I'm simply interested in which armed force
3 was on the "inside," as you've put it?
4 A. The Army of Republika Srpska was here, or the JNA. They were
5 both. They were in this area outside the pocket.
6 Q. And what military force was outside of the line that you've drawn?
7 A. Outside the line I drew, to the east, the 2nd Corps.
8 Approximately up to here in the south. And all the way to Doboj -- or
9 rather, the suburbs of Doboj town and the Bosna River.
10 Now, to the west and south-west and north-west were the forces of
11 the 3rd Corps of the BH army. I think at that time the 35th Division was
12 there and it held this area with part of its forces.
13 Q. Thank you very much, General Delic.
14 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that this map be admitted into evidence,
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted into evidence. May it please
17 be given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 397.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness be shown the document
21 previously marked P002277. That's P002277.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we getting the document P002277 now?
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, I -- I do have a number of documents to
25 show this witness. And if we're experiencing delays, I do have hard
1 copies, if that would assist.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's have hard copies, because it looks like we're
3 having a bit of a problem.
4 Q. General Delic, do you see the document on the screen in front of
5 you, sir?
6 A. There are two documents here. I don't know which one you mean.
7 This must be the English version.
8 Q. I would ask you, sir, to look at the Bosnian version of the
10 A. Yes, I see the document.
11 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this document is, please.
12 A. This document requests that reports be submitted by the commands
13 of the 2nd and 3rd Corps; namely, an interim report on progress during
14 operations on the Ozren front.
15 Somebody signed -- in fact, it says "Rasim Delic, the army
16 general, should have been there, but somebody signed on his behalf, maybe
17 an authorised person. We see initials "TF."
18 Q. Now, General Delic, unfortunately there's a -- there's a slight
19 omission in the English translation of this document. Can you tell us to
20 whom this document was addressed?
21 A. It's addressed to the command of the 2nd and the 3rd Corps of the
22 BH army.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we would tender this document into
24 evidence, please.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
1 please be given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 398.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 Q. General Delic, can you briefly tell the Trial Chamber what
5 activities or what the results achieved in the activities on the Ozren
6 front were at this point in time; that is, on or about 21 July 1995.
7 A. Without a map and without reminding myself of those precise dates,
8 I couldn't really say. But as far as I recall, Your Honours, in this
9 period, in those ten days - that's ten days from the beginning of the
10 operation - the planned part of the operation had been completed and
11 further actions continued.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Counsel for the Defence is on his feet. Let's hear
13 what he has got to say before you carry on.
14 Yes, Mr. Robson.
15 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour. Before the witness continued, I
16 was just I was going to ask if prosecuting counsel could establish whether
17 or not this witness was actually aware of what was going on on or about
18 the 21st of July. It seems that there's a -- it was rather led to him
19 that he had information or knowledge about events at that time.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I don't understand what you're asking,
21 Mr. Robson. Was this witness not part of the operations in the Ozren
22 pocket, in the Vozuca pocket.
23 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I don't believe it's been established
24 that he was involved in activities in the Vozuca pocket in July 1995.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: In July 1995.
1 Yes, Mr. Mundis.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, the document doesn't talk about the
3 Vozuca pocket specifically. It talks about the Ozren front. The witness
4 has testified about that, so ...
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what I thought. And I thought July 1995 is
6 the date of the document. It's just it's not giving a time of the
7 activities -- time of the report to be given. It just says "give us a
8 report on the activities on the Ozren front."
9 Mr. Robson, I still don't understand you are -- what you are
10 asking for.
11 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I was just suggesting that it was -- it
12 was a leading question, because it hadn't been established that
13 General Delic here was actually involved in combat activities, operations,
14 on the Ozren front in July 1995. If it has been, I stand corrected.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can be of
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second.
18 Rather object than give advice, because then when you give advice,
19 I -- first of all, I wonder why you are giving advice to your opposite
20 member. But if you object, then it makes better sense to me. I
21 understand what you are saying.
22 But also on this specific objection - if it is an objection - I am
23 saying the 21st of July is the date of this document. Presumably, given
24 the content of the document, it is asking of results of activities that
25 took place prior to the date of this document. It's asking for a report.
1 So it's not necessarily asking this witness to tell us about activities in
2 July. It's asking this witness to tell us about activities on the Ozren
3 front, whenever they took place. They might have taken place in December
4 or on 13th month, which is whose name I don't know.
5 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I withdraw the objection.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 Yes. You may proceed, Mr. Mundis.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
9 Q. I'll repeat the question, Mr. Delic: I asked you to tell the
10 Trial Chamber what activities or what the results achieved in the
11 activities on the Ozren front were at this point in time, that is, on or
12 about 21 July 1995.
13 A. Your Honours, I caused confusion because I hadn't understood the
14 date properly. In that period, speaking of the 2nd Corps, the focus was
15 on the east part of the front; namely, trying to save the people from Zepa
16 and Srebrenica.
17 Now, as far as the Ozren front is concerned, we can say that there
18 were only negligible activities. If I remember correctly, those were
19 activities of the 225th Brigade, or to be more precise, the Lukavac
20 Brigade, which had then succeeded through local operations, small-scale
21 operations, to capture two elevations in the area of responsibility it was
22 defending. So practically in that period, we did whatever we could not
23 only in this part of the front, but in our entire area of responsibility,
24 to tie up the enemy and to relieve as far as we could the suffering of the
25 people from Zepa and Srebrenica.
1 I'm sorry, I had previously misunderstood the question.
2 Q. General Delic, can you explain to the Trial Chamber in the period
3 of July and August 1995 what taskings or objectives the 2nd Corps was
4 asked by the Main Staff to complete?
5 A. Your Honours, we were all focused then on saving people and saving
6 whatever we could from Podrinje, Zepa, and Srebrenica. We tried to form a
7 unit of sorts from the able-bodied men who were there, but that unit never
8 took part in actual fighting until the end of the war.
9 We tried to gather intelligence and to find out what kind of crime
10 was committed in Zepa and Srebrenica. In that period, before the actual
11 events in Zepa and Srebrenica, there were activities to lift the blockade
12 of Sarajevo, as you probably know. A smaller part of the units, one or
13 two brigades strong from the 2nd Corps were involved in that.
14 After all the following events, after NATO airstrikes and failed
15 negotiations, we tried to implement the part of the directive that was
16 received by the command of the 2nd Corps early that year or at the end of
17 the previous year. That corps, which was completely independent, had to
18 select assignments that were only roughly outlined and try to carry them
19 out. One of them was to free the Vozuca pocket. There had been several
20 unsuccessful attempts previously.
21 Q. General, let me -- let me interrupt you there.
22 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness be shown the document
23 that's been marked PT003064. And if I neglected to do so, I would tender
24 the document dated 21 July 1995.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document, 21 July, was it not Exhibit 398?
1 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, it was, Your Honour. I stand corrected.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness be shown PT003064.
4 Q. General Delic, do you see the document on the screen in front of
6 A. Yes, I do. It is a plan of coordination of the General Staff of
7 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina for the month of August, 1995.
8 Q. If we could please go to page 12 of the Bosnian version and page
9 14 of the English version of this document. And specifically Roman
10 numeral 13, paragraph 1 of Roman numeral 13.
11 General Delic, do you see Roman numeral 13, subparagraph 1?
12 A. Yes, I do. It contains the tasks of the 2nd Corps command.
13 Q. And, sir, for the period of August 1995, what were those tasks as
14 set forth in this document?
15 A. Your Honours, I believe that these tasks were copied from my
16 coordination plan. They state that the offensive combat activities plan
17 should be put in -- in practice in the area of responsibility of the
18 2nd Corps with the focus of the zone of responsibility of the 22nd
19 Division towards Vozuca, the 24th Division of ground forces towards
20 Podrinje, and the 25th Division on Majevica, as well as preparing and
21 sending of units of the 2nd Corps by the order of the General Staff of the
22 ARBiH issued in accordance with special plan.
23 The second task reads: "accommodation, restoring of work and
24 life" -- I believe it says "work and life or functioning."
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. As well as carrying -- I cannot see the end. We should move on to
2 page 13.
3 Q. That's okay, General. I was primarily interested in the first
5 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we would tender this document into
6 evidence, please.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Sorry the document is
8 admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 399.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 MR. MUNDIS: We would ask that the witness be shown the document
12 marked PT003065, PT003065.
13 Q. General Delic, do you see the document on the screen in front of
14 you, sir?
15 A. Yes, I do. This is a document of the administration of military
16 security, which was part of the General Staff. Pertaining to the plan of
17 coordination of the General Staff of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina for
18 the month of September of 1995.
19 Q. I would ask, please, that we go to page 15 in the English version
20 and the page stamped -- in the Bosnian version, the page stamped with ERN
21 number 06084931. 06084931.
22 The bottom part of the Bosnian version, please.
23 General, I draw your attention to paragraph Roman numeral 12,
24 subparagraph 1. Can you take a look at that, please.
25 A. Yes, I can see that. I mentioned that previously. I have to say,
1 Your Honours, that the coordination plan is meant to regulate in general
2 the life and work in various units. I believe this is an excerpt from my
3 plan of organising life and work and activities for this month.
4 It says: "Conducting the plan for offensive combat operations in
5 the 2nd Corps area of responsibility, according to the special plan,
6 focusing on the -- on the Uragan plan."
7 And: "Performing obligations following conclusions and tasks of
8 the General Staff of the Army of the BH." Strictly confidential. I
9 cannot see the number. I think it says "01/015-1."
10 Q. Thank you, General. We're interested, again, mainly in the first
12 MR. MUNDIS: I would tender this document into evidence, Your
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
15 please be given an exhibit number.
16 Yes, Judge, just before you do.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mundis, I have a question to you relating
18 these last pieces of evidence that you have introduced. And I don't know
19 if it would be appropriate to ask the witness to take off his earphones,
20 provided he does not speak and understand English.
21 Do you know if he does?
22 MR. MUNDIS: It's my understanding that he understands very
23 limited English, but perhaps I can ask him.
24 Q. General, do you understand English?
25 A. No.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Then please ask him to remove his earphones just
2 for a second.
3 MR. MUNDIS:
4 Q. General, just please take off the ...
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, I -- I simply have a difficulty in
6 understanding what it is you wish the Chamber to elicit from these pieces
7 of evidence.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour --
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: What are they supposed to show?
10 MR. MUNDIS: These documents show that the Main Staff of the Army
11 of Bosnia-Herzegovina was tasking the corps commanders with undertaking
12 certain operations relating to Vozuca.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: But that couldn't come as a surprise, could it?
14 MR. MUNDIS: Well, again, Your Honours, I have a firm obligation
15 to prove my case and in the absence of agreements from the Defence as to
16 the role of the accused Rasim Delic in the combat operations going on
17 under which the crimes in this indictment were committed, I have an
18 obligation, I believe, to put all of this evidence before the Trial
19 Chamber. I'd be in a different situation if there were some additional
20 agreed facts coming from the Defence, but at this point in time, we -- we
21 don't have any agreed facts concerning these operations, and I have a duty
22 to show that the Main Staff was directing from the beginning the
23 coordination and planning of these military operations and these
24 documents, in my respectful submission, go to that very point.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: And may I ask the Defence if they have any
1 objections against the authenticity of these plans.
2 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, we don't object to the authenticity of
3 these documents, but in our submission, this goes back to the issue that I
4 raised yesterday evening, because rather like the evidence we -- that the
5 Trial Chamber heard yesterday, again, documents are being put to a witness
6 without then following on and putting to the witness the importance or
7 relevance of those documents.
8 We today have prepared cross-examination on the basis of many,
9 many documents. And now because the -- the Prosecutor has raised these
10 documents, has not asked further questions, essentially an inference could
11 arise from those documents. The Trial Chamber could -- could look at
12 those documents in the future and draw an inference from it.
13 It means that in addition to all the other points that I was going
14 to raise anyway, I now have to deal with each and every one of these
15 documents myself in cross-examination and try and, if you like, undo any
16 inference that may be drawn.
17 So, again, Your Honours, the Defence's submission is that --
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: But maybe we should invite the parties to then
19 increase their level of cooperation, because -- I mean, I -- I don't know
20 if the -- if you, as Defence team, would have any objections against
21 accepting that these combat operations were carried out and planned in
22 accordance with the normal structures that were applicable in the BiH;
23 that is to say, that they somehow, I guess, were coordinated or planned in
24 coordination with the -- with the -- with the accused.
25 MR. ROBSON: Unfortunately, Your Honour, I think the simple answer
1 to that is that there would be difficulty in -- in reaching agreement on
2 these documents, because I suspect the parties would ask the Trial Chamber
3 to draw a different conclusion.
4 The Defence's position, you will find out in due course during
5 cross-examination, but we certainly couldn't accept the position as it
6 stands by the Prosecution.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Okay. Then let us --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can Judge --
9 JUDGE LATTANZI: Excuse me. Excuse me. But you forget that I
10 very often follow the translation in French, and you are putting the
11 interpreters in a very difficult position. There is a delay, a
12 considerable delay in minutes as to what you say in English. So please,
13 because I would like to understand what is being said.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: My only hope in this exchange of views is that it
15 would somehow be made clear to the Chamber what the disagreement is,
16 because it is very difficult for the Chamber to understand the meaning of
17 these many, many documents that come and they are on the screen for a
18 couple of minutes and the witness is not being asked very much about it
19 and then we move on to the next document and to the next document, and so
20 on. And it is extremely difficult for us to make out what we, you know,
21 should pick up from these documents.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour. And as I indicated yesterday
23 evening, the Prosecution team is conceptualising ideas on better ways or
24 more efficient ways to get the documents into evidence, and one of those
25 possibilities would be for - and I just throw this out at this point in
1 time because it's -- it's arisen now again - one of the -- one of the
2 options that we are considering is that at -- in the very, very near
3 future, perhaps as early as next week, some type of motion, tendering
4 several hundred documents from the bar table so that we don't have to
5 spend our time dealing with each and every document, to get it into
6 evidence through a witness but we can, rather, focus our attention on the
7 contents of those documents.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: But if I -- oh.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me. I agree that this could be an option,
10 but -- but, again, the -- the Chamber is in a difficult position if we are
11 just being in a position where we are receiving a number of documents
12 without any idea as to their probative value. What is it that they're
13 supposed to prove? And that normally requires either an explanation from
14 the party who brings the document or some illumination through a witness.
15 MR. MUNDIS: I understand that, Your Honours. And, again, what --
16 what we are trying to do is focus our attention on what are -- what might
17 be designated or identified as core documents or core exhibits. There are
18 several hundred such exhibits that are referred to in our pre-trial brief,
19 which, in my respectful submission, puts them into some kind of context or
20 some type of understanding for the Trial Chamber.
21 I'm very reluctant to be put into a situation or position where we
22 have to explain the relevance of each and every document in the presence
23 of a witness at the time it's being tendered or offered into evidence. In
24 an ideal world, we would have ample opportunity and time to take the
25 witness through each and every part of each and every document that goes
1 into evidence. Unfortunately, the limitations are such that that's not
2 always possible. Some documents, such as the one which -- or the last two
3 documents I've shown to the witness, there are only very brief parts of
4 those documents that have some relevance or probative value to the
5 ultimate issues that the Trial Chamber must decide.
6 Obviously I'm going to be in a position, hopefully, time
7 permitting, to ask the witness questions about the -- the material that's
8 stated in the documents, and in that respect, perhaps this discussion
9 might be a bit premature as to these documents with this witness, but I --
10 but I will say that I am cognisant of the problem. I'm aware of the
11 problem. We are endeavouring, in the limited time we have available, to
12 put the documents and to lead the viva voce evidence that Your Honours
14 I'm not saying that this is unique to this case. I've been
15 involved in a number of cases here, as have my colleagues from the
16 Defence. All cases before the International Tribunal are facing the same
17 types of problems. It perhaps is a bit more tricky or difficult in cases
18 that tend to be circumstantial and document heavy.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just ask the witness a point.
20 Mr. Mundis, you say here page 30, lines 8 to 11 or somewhere
21 there: "Obviously I'm going to be in a position, hopefully, time
22 permitted, to ask the witness questions about the material that's stated
23 in the documents."
24 You know, I guess what -- what Judge Harhoff is phrasing is if you
25 asked those questions that you are saying, you know, you're going to ask
1 later at the time when the document is on the screen, it would be much
2 more helpful to the Trial Chamber to follow why the document is being
3 tendered into evidence, because you begin to deal with the content of the
4 document and you'll begin to deal maybe -- hopefully you will be finding
5 out from the witness why that document was generated, who generated it,
6 for what purpose. Then we will be able to follow. But if it's just a
7 document, and you just read a paragraph and you tender it in, we are
8 indeed at a loss.
9 And -- and the alternative that you are thinking of, of tendering
10 100 documents at a time is even worse than what we are now talking about,
11 because now we are going to be inundated with documents the relevance of
12 which we do not know, and we don't even know in those documents which
13 paragraph to concentrate on.
14 So this method is still better than tendering hundreds of
15 documents. But we -- and the reason the document has to come through a
16 witness is precisely for that reason, that the witness can explain to --
17 to us the -- the importance of the document in the discussion before us.
18 MR. MUNDIS: I -- I understand that, Your Honours. As I've
19 indicated, what we've now seen on the screen before us, there's a
20 reference which the witness indicated, Plan Uragan, that's exactly going
21 to be the subject of the bulk of the remaining time available for the
22 direct examination, which led me earlier to indicate that this discussion,
23 with respect to these documents and this witness, is -- is premature.
24 But -- but again, let me assure you, with respect to -- to
25 tendering a large number of documents from the bar table, that it is not
1 and is not my intention nor will I be in a situation where I'm dumping
2 hundreds of documents on the Trial Chamber or seeking to do that without a
3 full explanation of the relevance of each and every one of those
4 documents. I would not simply stand up here and tender into evidence 800
5 documents with no explanation whatsoever.
6 If -- if we go down that path, the Chamber will have detailed
7 explanations as to the relevance of each and every one of those documents
8 and that the one thing that's holding me back from directing my team to
9 start such a process is the huge amount of work that's required, without
10 any indications from the Trial Chamber, whether that would be acceptable
11 or not. If I devote a huge amount of resources to doing that only to find
12 that it's all for naught, then -- then we will have problems on the
13 Prosecution side.
14 So we're looking at a number of different ways of getting the
15 important evidence before Your Honours in such a way, obviously, that --
16 that it makes sense that you understand the relevance and the probative
17 value of it. That's called good advocacy and that's one thing that I
18 believe very strongly in -- in getting my team to do.
19 And so I guarantee you I'm not going to stand up here and throw
20 800 documents at the Trial Chamber.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we break, can I ask --
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we break, Madam Vidovic, you wanted to say
24 something very briefly.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, briefly.
1 Since now I learn of the existence of this option of tendering a
2 large number of documents, I can tell you that it is certain that we would
3 object to that. I believe it would be deeply unfair.
4 However, if the Prosecutor indeed attempts to do such a thing, we
5 will provide our explanation as to the objection that we have.
6 As regards the way of tendering documents in this way, I can
7 perhaps respond to the --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I understand your sentiment. Let's
9 not try to deal with the motion that's not before us. Let's deal with it
10 when it comes. But I -- the sentiment -- the sentiment is understood.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I merely wanted to comment these two
14 exhibits that were admitted last. I wanted to express our position.
15 The Prosecutor drafted their indictment and their pre-trial brief
16 in which they state that the accused took part in the planning of the
17 July, September, and October combat activities in 1995. This Defence
18 opposed this strongly in our pre-trial brief, and we put forth our
19 position. These documents are very relevant, and the two witnesses you
20 could see, for example, yesterday, who was deputy commander of the 3rd
21 Corps and today commander of the 2nd Corps, are the people who are in good
22 position to provide concrete answers as to what was actually going on.
23 And they can also describe the importance of this document.
24 Perhaps we can have a look at the witness's answer regarding this.
25 It leaves me with the same doubt, the same question as His Honour Judge
1 Harhoff. We do have to know what the Prosecutor intends to do with this
2 document, where are they going with this? We need this to be able to
3 prepare for cross-examination. We do not oppose this, but it is unfair to
4 quote a small portion of the document, because this witness, more than
5 any, can tell us more about the importance of this entire documents --
7 This is the gist of what I wanted to say.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic. Mr. Mundis has assured
9 us that that complaint is a little premature. He's coming to it.
10 Shall we take a break and come back at 4.00.
11 Court adjourned.
12 --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we proceed, may we give that document an
15 exhibit number, please. That is document PT003065.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That will be Exhibit number
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 Yes, Mr. Mundis.
20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Now, General Delic, before the break we were talking about the
22 document that we were looking at, and you said "I believe" -- and this
23 is -- I'm quoting from lines 22 through 24 of page 24: "I believe this is
24 an excerpt from my plan."
25 And I'm wondering if you can tell us, sir, what you were referring
1 to when you said "my plan."
2 A. As far as I know, my plans were never approved by the General
3 Staff. Concerning my activities, I sent such plans to the General Staff
4 with the general descriptions of tasks of my units and my command for the
5 forthcoming month. Such documents were usually drafted at the beginning
6 of every month, describing in general what the activities are to be
7 undertaken, by whom, and at what time.
8 I also had a column for remarks with any remarks that may be
9 needed to explain. I believe this is an excerpt from one of such plans of
10 mine; however, I believe that can be checked in the archives that you must
11 have, although I'm quite sure that I am correct.
12 Q. Now, General Delic, this exhibit, Exhibit number 400 that we were
13 just looking at, indicates that there should be a focus on the Uragan
14 plan. Can you tell us, sir, if you know, what the Uragan plan was.
15 A. Your Honours, the hurricane plan was an operation undertaken by
16 the 2nd Corps units of the Army of B and H in order to occupy the
17 so-called Vozuca pocket, and they were trying to fulfil their focal tasks,
18 which were derived from a directive we received early that year. All
19 those directives were quite similar to each other, though.
20 I saw two such copies during the four years I was there. They
21 would usually describe tasks in general. For example, for the 2nd Corps,
22 one of such directives said that we should hold on to the free territory
23 and attempt to liberate within my area of responsibility the territory
24 held by the enemy.
25 I also remember then in all those directives there was a mention
1 of the Ozren pocket as well, since it was of great importance for the
2 2nd Corps and its positions in that part of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
3 Q. Thank you, General Delic.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you proceed, I did hear the
5 interpretation saying "the hurricane plan."
6 MR. MUNDIS: Yes.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is the --
8 MR. MUNDIS: Yes. Can I -- I don't want to be accused of
9 testifying, but the word "Uragan" in English means "hurricane."
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
11 MR. MUNDIS: And I would -- I would ask, if it's possible, for the
12 interpreters to use the term "Uragan," because the documents refer to
13 "Uragan." Otherwise, we're going to have confusion between the documents
14 and the transcript.
15 So -- I don't want to tell the interpreters how to do their job,
16 but I might suggest - and perhaps if the Defence concurs - that we use the
17 term "Uragan," because that's what the witnesses and the documents are
18 going to talk about.
19 MR. ROBSON: We concur with that, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Robson.
21 Q. Now, General Delic, can you briefly tell us if any units other
22 than the 2nd Corps units were involved in the Ozren pocket area in the
23 summer of 1995, other ARBiH units other than 2nd Corps units.
24 A. If you meant my area of responsibility, the answer would be yes.
25 I personally requested that a smaller unit from the Black Swans Brigade,
1 about 100 or 120 men strong, be resubordinated to me for the purpose of
2 carrying out combat assignments purely for the benefit of morale, because
3 it was negligible compared to some 5.000 attackers, but I needed to tell
4 my fighting men that somebody had come outside -- from outside to help
6 On a couple of occasions, we engaged around 600 members of the
7 civilian police. They controlled the liberated territory and helped
8 establish authorities in that territory, searched the terrain, and
9 controlled roads in that area, because I did not have enough forces for
10 that. The BH army did not have enough resources to do that.
11 I must emphasise that in that period the so-called 28th Division
12 left the 2nd Corps. To be more precise, those were parts of the units
13 from Srebrenica and from the 2nd Corps that formed the 28th Division, and
14 some units from Zivinice formed a reserve. It was one battalion that was
15 briefly there and was used only for searching the terrain when our units
16 pursued the enemy behind the lines. Later it was returned to their
17 original unit.
18 Q. General Delic, can you tell the Trial Chamber, if you know, what
19 the 3rd Corps was planning at the same time as Operation Uragan.
20 A. In parallel with the Operation Uragan, I don't know what they
21 planned. I know they planned their own operation that was called Farz, if
22 that's what you mean. They were on the opposite side and in coordinated
23 action with us. We needed to solve the issue of this Vozuca pocket.
24 Although, I have to emphasise we had our own areas of responsibility that
25 we strictly observed, and in the course of combat operation there were no
1 major movements of individuals or units from one area to another. If
2 that's what you meant. I'm not sure I understood the question correctly.
3 Q. That's precisely what I meant, sir. And we'll return to the issue
4 of Operation Farz in just a moment.
5 I would now ask, sir, that you be given the opportunity to look at
6 P002430. That's P002430.
7 Do you see the document on the screen in front of you, sir?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this document is.
10 A. This is my own personal plan of activities for the purpose of
11 carrying out combat operations as part of the Uragan 95 operation. In
12 this plan, I regulated where, how, and with what units and resources needs
13 to be done. This concerns reconnoitering and developing combat
14 documentation for the forthcoming combat operations, called Uragan 95.
15 Q. Now, General Delic, a few moments ago, as reflected on page 35,
16 lines 9 through 11, you told us that plans were sent to the General Staff
17 with general descriptions of tasks of your units and command. Is this
18 document that you're looking at one of those such plans?
19 A. No way. This is my own plan. It was done on my own accord. That
20 was something I did for myself as a commander, to facilitate my own work.
21 By planning, you see, nobody was supposed to approve it.
22 This plan was made available to my subordinate officers, to
23 acquaint them with the assignment and how the assignment should be
24 performed, in what area.
25 This is about the implementation of the monthly plan. The monthly
1 plan, for instance, stipulates that during that month, the Uragan
2 operation should be executed. And this is my own plan how to carry out
3 the monthly plan.
4 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that this document be admitted into
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
7 please be given an exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 401.
9 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown P01918.
11 Q. General Delic, do you see the document on the screen in front of
13 A. Yes. This document is very familiar. It's my own order for
14 offensive combat operations in the part of the Ozren theatre of war; that
15 is, Uragan 95.
16 Q. Now, General Delic, is it correct, sir, that this document does
17 not have a date?
18 A. Yes, there is no date on this document.
19 Q. Can you -- can you explain why this document does not have a date?
20 A. That's how I was trained. For this kind of document, it's not
21 necessary to put a date. I believe it's part of the standard operations
22 procedures. Because this is an order that together with the decision is
23 one of the most important documents, if not the most important document,
24 in the course of the operation under which these activities are
25 implemented, and therefore there is no date. But there is a date on the
1 working map. There is an end date for the operation. And in this order,
2 in addition to measures of logistical support, there is a precise date,
3 end date, by which all activities stipulated by the order should be
5 Q. Now, can you again, sir, briefly tell the Trial Chamber - excuse
6 me - what this order encompasses, what is the purpose of this order and
7 what does it do? What were you trying to do by issuing this order?
8 A. This order, like all military orders, contains basic information
9 about the enemy, his intentions, his disposition and deployment, and all
10 we knew about the enemy. It should contain the assignment of the corps as
11 a whole. And below, the assignments given to the subordinated parts of
12 the corps; specifically, there are three divisions here. I issued
13 assignments to these divisions and to the corps' artillery group, who are
14 in direct contact with me. And we can see in this order other measures of
15 combat support, such as anti-armour support, air defence, treatment of
16 prisoners of war, controlling the territory, resources approved for
17 logistics, establishing communications before the operation, the method of
18 reporting to division commanders, et cetera.
19 To put it briefly, the order is in fact the elaborated version of
20 assignments necessary to perform this mission. Generally speaking, when
21 you draft a decision, you make drawings for two levels below. That means
22 I did a drawing for brigade level and lower, and the division had to
23 elaborate assignments for brigades and battalions. The brigade has to
24 develop its own assignments towards companies and lower, et cetera.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour. It's a
2 matter of interpretation., which is a bit different.
3 41, lines 9 and 10, the witness says: "Which means I give
4 assignments to brigades." The witness actually said "two levels below."
5 That means divisions and brigades. And the transcript reads "brigades and
6 lower." That's why we need to clarify it.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think you misunderstood me. In
8 this order, there are no assignments of mine for the brigade. My first
9 subordinate unit is a division, and other independent units, such as the
10 corps artillery group, such as the Battalion of Military Police, they are
11 independent units in direct communication with me. It is the commander of
12 the division who issues assignments for brigades and independent units.
13 Brigade commanders give assignments to battalions and independent units.
14 Battalion commanders give assignments to companies. Company commanders
15 issue assignments to platoons. Platoon commanders give assignments to
16 sections, et cetera.
17 When you draw a decision on the map, as you can see from my
18 decisions, I draw the areas of responsibility and the mission of the
19 division, and those who are directly subordinate -- subordinate to me. I
20 can only indicate brigades in that area, because I know approximately
21 which brigades are involved, but I can only indicate the map as such, the
22 limit to the area, and then the division commander will issue assignments
23 to brigades, to clarify which brigade, with what resources shall perform
24 the assignment.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
1 Q. General Delic, on the upper left version of this document we see
2 something in handwriting. Do you know what that is, sir?
3 A. Yes. That's the signature of the army general Rasim Delic.
4 Q. How do you know that?
5 A. Well, that's my commander and I know his signature. I hope it's
6 not forged. I believe it isn't, because it's my own order.
7 Q. Do you know, sir, how this document came to be signed by General
8 Rasim Delic?
9 A. I recall that. It happened, I reckon, in the last third of the
10 month of August, in Visoko in the command post or in the building where
11 the commander of the main logistics centre of the BH army was based. That
12 is where the commander, Army General Rasim Delic, signed this order as
13 well as the decision of the commander of the 2nd Corps for the execution
14 of this operation. I believe it was done hastily. I don't know why the
15 commander was there. He looked at the map superficially, having
16 confidence in me that I knew what I was doing, and he just signed the
17 order. I don't know the exact date, but I believe it was in the last
18 decade of August. That's between the 20th and the 30th.
19 Q. On this day, sir, when you were in Visoko, was anyone else
20 present? Any other ARBiH officers present?
21 A. Yes. On the same day, the order was signed by General
22 Sakib Mahmuljin for his part of the operation which was called Farz.
23 Q. And when you say the order was signed, who signed the order for
24 operation Farz on that day?
25 A. This order that I see in front of me was signed by the commander,
1 Army General Rasim Delic. There is another document, the decision, which
2 is not here, but these two go together. One cannot exist without the
3 other. In principle, first you draw the map, and then you write this
4 order in which assignments are elaborated. Both were signed that day.
5 Q. Now, sir, when you say "the map," can you tell the Trial Chamber
6 what you're referring to when you say "the map."
7 A. The geographic map on the scale of 1 to 50.000 or 1 to 100.000 --
8 no, it was 1 to 25.000. That is a form of decision wherein assignments
9 are drawn, the assignments stipulated by this order.
10 In course of preparations -- you saw the previous document
11 presented by the Prosecution. It indicates some of my activities in
12 developing these two documents. After those preparations, the schematic
13 of the decision was drawn after which this entire order was written as a
14 textual form of stipulating the assignments.
15 Under me, there were divisions and independent units, the corps
16 artillery group, the MP battalion and some other units who were within my
18 Q. General Delic, we see on the upper right hand portion of this
19 document it indicates that this is copy number 2 of your order. Does that
20 have any significance?
21 A. It does. It does. It was my practice, at least, to save all
22 those documents, and the first copy was the one that was used and that was
23 filed. For purposes of the secrecy of the forthcoming assignment, it has
24 to be known how many copies were made and where each copy is.
25 Q. Could we please -- if the registry could assist. Could we please
1 go to the last page this document. I know that it's page 9 in English.
2 While that's -- while the English version is coming up, sir, do
3 you see the Bosnian -- the original of the Bosnian language version of
4 this document?
5 A. Yes, I see it.
6 Q. Can you explain why there does not appear to be a signature on
7 this document?
8 A. You're right. There's no signature. I can't recall precisely why
9 the signature is missing. It's probably the second copy. I must have
10 brought two copies of that order and the first one was signed only,
11 because it was done hastily, as I said, and the commander probably signed
12 both, although the second one did not bear my signature. But this is
13 certainly the -- the order and that is my plan.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we would tender this document PT010918
15 into evidence, please.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just ask one or two questions about this
17 document before we do so.
18 General, I would like you to just clarify something for me. I
19 still don't understand why this document had to be signed by General Delic
20 there, the commander of the army. And -- and the reason I'm asking this
21 question and -- is because at page -- page 39, line 4 you say: "By
22 planning, you see, nobody was supposed to approve it." Your plans were
23 not being approved. You -- because these were operational plans that you
24 did on the field, as I understood you. And I'd -- I want to find out: Is
25 this one of such plans? And if it is one of such plans, why did this one
1 specifically have to be signed by General Delic?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you're perfectly right,
3 but there is an explanation. Following a normal procedure, it would be
4 normal for everything that is carried out by the corps be approved by this
5 superior officer; however, the reason I went to Visoko and insisted on
6 this document, although I had received the directive, I had received prior
7 instructions what I was supposed to do, the reason was twofold: One is
8 that the combat operations were performed by two corps. The most narrow
9 part of the Vozuca pocket between 2 Corps was only 5 kilometres long.
10 There was great danger of so-called friendly fire. We knew on the basis
11 of prior experience, because the Vozuca pocket was an area we tried to
12 liberate unsuccessfully several times before, we knew that we needed
13 maximum logistical support, and that's why I wanted my commander to sign
15 And another purpose was to obtain some additional logistics from
16 them. That was different because logistical support was in short supply.
17 But if we didn't get additional resources, our losses would have been
18 three or four times higher.
19 If the situation had been different, I would have been able to
20 execute all this in my area on the basis of the directive, but since we
21 were supposed to work together with the neighbouring unit and since we had
22 the difficulties that I explained, I thought that my commander should see
23 and sign this.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much for the explanation. The
25 document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 402.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 Mr. Mundis.
5 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Now, General Delic, several moments ago you -- you mentioned
7 coordination with the 3rd Corps and their Operation Farz. Can you briefly
8 tell the Trial Chamber -- can you briefly tell the Trial Chamber how this
9 cooperation in -- in the planning stages was undertaken, prior to the
10 actual operation, but the planning. Can you tell us how that was
11 coordinated between 2 Corps and 3 Corps?
12 A. Your Honours, in the document that you have seen, three documents
13 before this one, you saw my plan that I was supposed to execute in order
14 to prepare for the Uragan operation. In order to do that, I also took
15 measures of coordination with command and units of the 3rd Corps that were
16 involved in the operation. By that I mean that I organised coordinated
17 action so that we could coordinate the assignments of units in territory
18 and in time to avoid undesired consequences for me and for the other
20 As part of that, I went with division and brigade commanders to
21 the area of the 3rd Corps, to their forward line from which they started
22 the attack, and familiarised officers with assignments and axes of
23 movement, because there was very little room between us in some areas.
24 Sometimes as little as 5 kilometres. We sometimes brought section
1 In doing this reconnaissance on both sides, we also stipulated
2 points of contact, so that the 3rd Corps was not supposed to cross the
3 Krivaja River and a brook next to Vozuca, and we also specified how far my
4 forces were allowed to go and how far the forces of the 3rd Corps were
5 allowed to go.
6 We also specified which targets we should fire on to realise this
7 assignment. We established communications and we sized up the situation
8 on both sides of the front line. We specified the features that both
9 components should attain and how to do it.
10 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown the
11 document P02496. P02496.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: While we are waiting for this document, could the
13 witness indicate a time when he met with the leaders of the 3rd Corps.
14 MR. MUNDIS:
15 Q. General Delic, before we talk about this document, Judge Harhoff
16 asked if you can indicate the time or a time period when you met with the
17 leaders of the 3rd Corps in coordinating these two operations.
18 A. Your Honours, all of this was done in the course of planning and
19 development of these documents and after the drafting of these documents.
20 Some activities took place before; other activities after this order and
21 the map were issued. It was not just in that case alone. Several days
22 later the commanders of smaller ten-men units were taken to the other side
23 and vice versa to reconnoiter. They needed to see for themselves. It was
24 done both before and after the planning.
25 Q. Can you tell us, General Delic, approximately when this
1 coordination activity took place and over what period of time.
2 A. You already have on the screen one of my orders in which I
3 designate a team made up of the most responsible and most experienced
4 officers in my command, such as Brigadier Sulejman Budakovic, the chief of
5 training, Osman Puskar; team leader of the intelligence, Esad Hadzic;
6 chief of artillery, Sead Arnautovic; one of the members of the operation
7 centre, Ferid Omerovic; and another one, I believe he was a signalsman,
8 Mirsad Zildzic. And these men, upon my orders, went on the 2nd of
9 September to the area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps, and their
10 assignment was to resolve and adjust all that remained unclear about the
11 execution of combat operations. It was specified when they would go and
12 when they would come back, using which vehicles, as well as who was
13 responsible for performing this assignment, and that was my deputy,
14 Sulejman Budakovic.
15 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, I would tender this document into
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
18 please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 403.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 Q. General Delic, let me return, though, to this issue of these
22 efforts of coordination. Can you tell us, sir, was there more than one
23 meeting or were there -- was there one meeting where there was coordinated
24 or more than one meeting?
25 A. Your Honours, I personally attended a number of those meetings. I
1 don't know exactly how many division commanders there were. As far as I
2 remember, on the side of the other corps there was the 35th Division; on
3 my side, there were three divisions. What they did according to their own
4 plan, I don't know, but I organised it myself personally three times.
5 Maybe they organised more of such meetings. It was maybe part of their
6 own plans and their own responsibilities.
7 Q. General Delic, when you -- you've made reference to the
8 35th Division. Do you know which units of the 35th Division were involved
9 in Operation Farz?
10 A. No. I can only guess. What I saw in Vozuca was that there was
11 probably the 7th Muslim Division, the El Mujahid Detachment. I saw men
12 with beards.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.
14 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, the witness's answer was: "I can only
15 guess." This is an objection. I would submit that for the witness to
16 continue, it's -- he's speculating and obviously this is a key issue. So
17 unless the witness --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you just read the next sentence.
19 "What I saw."
20 MR. ROBSON: Certainly he can tell us what he saw, Your Honour,
21 but at -- I object to him speculating about what those units may be --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.
23 MR. ROBSON: If he can establish a basis, of course, there's no
24 objection to that.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. But he's telling us only what he says he
1 saw. He says, I can guess about the units involved, but then what I saw
2 is this in Vozuca. So he's talking about what he saw only.
3 MR. ROBSON: Absolutely, Your Honour. If he's telling us what
4 he -- what he saw, I have no problem with that.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 MR. MUNDIS:
7 Q. General Delic, I'm going to move on now to the actual --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was that question answered fully, on what he saw?
9 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, it was, Your Honour. We'll return to that
10 subject, actually, when the witness was in Vozuca.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
12 MR. MUNDIS: Hopefully before the next break or before my time
13 expires, whichever comes first.
14 Q. General Delic, let me ask you now, sir, did there come a time when
15 Operation Uragan was put in place?
16 A. Yes. Operation Uragan had its beginning and its end. The
17 beginning was on the 10th of September, 1995 at 0600 hours. Its
18 conclusion was on the 12th of October, 1995, upon receiving notification
19 that combat activities should cease. It was in the evening on the 11th.
20 Perhaps around 23 or 24 hundred hours. That's when that directive came in
21 and for me, as commander, practically that was the end of the operation.
22 It lasted some 30-plus days.
23 Q. Now, General Delic, I want to focus your attention on day one;
24 that is, 10 September 1995. Can you tell us what -- again, briefly, sir,
25 because of time limitations, can you tell us what happened on that day
1 beginning at 0600, when the attack was launched.
2 A. Your Honours, I was at the front end of defence of the besieging
3 forces, and I had a visual command of all that was happening in the
4 theatre, covering almost 80 per cent of the area that was attacked.
5 My units broke through the enemy lines at 6.30 along the main
6 axis, and they immediately completed their immediate, initial task.
7 Along the auxiliary axis, due to great losses, the 25th Division
8 managed to complete it as late as that noon. It was then that they broke
9 through the line and completed their immediate task.
10 Vozuca itself and the inner portion of the pocket was taken
11 somewhere until the evening hours on the 10th of September. Therefore, in
12 the evening the planned immediate and following tasks were completed.
13 It was planned for the operation to take more days; however, we
14 managed to complete it during that day, since enemy lines were
15 disorganised and they withdrew in depth. Therefore, on the very first
16 day, we completed the immediate and following task approximately as
18 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness be shown PT02560.
19 That's P02560.
20 Q. General Delic, do you see the document on the screen in front of
21 you, sir?
22 A. Yes, I do. This document comes from my command under my approval.
23 My deputy drafted it, Sulejman Budakovic. This is his signature. This
24 document was drafted at the forward command post of the 2nd Corps in the
25 village of Cubric, Banovici municipality. It was forwarded to the
1 operational centre of the General Staff in Kakanj, personally to the chief
2 of staff. It was forwarded to the forward command post of the 3rd Corps,
3 also to the commander personally.
4 Perhaps if you want me, I can comment on its contents.
5 Q. Yes, please.
6 A. It states what was done during the 10th of September. This
7 document was created before 10.00 or slightly later, but it says up until
8 10.00 the 2nd Corps seized facilities at elevation 282, elevation 433,
9 Borik, to the south from the village of Mrahonivici [phoen], Hrustovica
10 Brdo [phoen], trig point 397, trig point 452, the village of Kelempici,
11 the village of Delici, and they are still working on providing security
12 for the flanks. The units are working according to plan and progressing
13 towards the 3rd Corps units to join them in the village of Gornje Bare.
14 In Vozuca, a firing position of the mortar the group of
15 100-millimetre calibre was neutralised. Casualties up until that point:
16 Killed 5 and 35 wounded.
17 Q. Thank you, General Delic.
18 MR. MUNDIS: We would ask that this document be admitted into
19 evidence, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
21 please be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 404.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown P02576,
1 Q. Do you see this document, General Delic?
2 A. Yes, I do. That is an information document sent from the morale
3 directorate of the General Staff to all subordinate units and components
4 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, among others to all corps commands. It
5 has to do on the information about the successes of units of the 2nd and
6 3rd Corps and the 28th ground forces division of the Army of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina on the Vozuca-Mount Ozren battlefield.
8 Q. I'd ask you -- I'd ask you, sir, to take a look at the first
9 paragraph of this document. Read that to yourself, and I'll ask you a
10 couple of questions about it.
11 A. I've read it.
12 Q. Can you -- can you comment upon the contents of this paragraph, in
13 terms of the accuracy or inaccuracy of the information in that paragraph?
14 A. I wanted to say that to me it seems illogical that I am being
15 forwarded information on my activities. Why would I need that? However,
16 it seems to have been sent to me, stating the data on the things carried
17 out and also data on how far individual units went and what they managed
18 to seize.
19 I believe the information contained therein is approximately
20 correct. I don't know. I would have to consult my maps and reports to
21 see whether the lines are as stipulated here. In any case, those who sent
22 it seems to have known it better than I did.
23 MR. MUNDIS: We'd ask that this document be admitted into
24 evidence, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
1 please be given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 405.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir.
4 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask -- excuse me. I would ask that the
5 witness now be shown P02612. P02612.
6 Q. General Delic, do you see this document on the screen in front of
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Do you know what this document is, sir?
10 A. Yes. And I can read it out loud, if you wish.
11 Q. That's -- sorry, General, but we -- let me just ask you, first of
12 all, if you can tell us what this document is.
13 A. The Kakanj command post is reporting or forwarding to the
14 commander, Army General Rasim Delic, some information on the latest
15 results achieved by the Army of the Republic of B and H.
16 Q. And, sir, do you see the paragraph that begins "on the
17 Vozuca-Ozren front"?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. It's on page 2 in the English version.
20 Sir, I would ask you if you could read that paragraph to yourself,
21 and I'll ask you to comment upon it once you've had the opportunity to do
23 A. I've read the passage.
24 Q. Can you comment, sir, on the information contained in that
25 paragraph of this document with respect to its accuracy or inaccuracy?
1 A. As far as I recall, this does not reflect accurately the situation
2 in the field; namely, the units of the 2nd Corps alone liberated some 250
3 square kilometres. We also have a number of villages mentioned and
4 stating that the 2nd Corps liberated 110 and the 3rd Corps liberated 140
5 square kilometres. I don't know where that came from, but I believe as to
6 the villages mentioned, they indeed were liberated in the first two days.
7 I presume this information was obtained through someone from the 2nd
9 Q. I just want to make sure that -- that we understand what you're
10 saying, sir, about what you believe is inaccurate. It's -- it's your
11 evidence that your corps, the 2nd Corps, liberated more square kilometres
12 than are indicated in this document?
13 A. Yes. Yes. I think this figure is a poor assessment or they were
14 told this by anyone. I know these features mentioned here, and I think
15 the area was larger.
16 Another thing is that I'm not completely convinced that all of the
17 features that had to be mentioned are indeed here. I'm trying to recall
18 the first two days, and the line reached by that stage seems to be
19 approximately as mentioned here.
20 Q. Thank you, General Delic.
21 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution tenders P02612 into evidence, Your
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Document P02612 is admitted into evidence. May it
24 please be given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 406.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness now be shown P02793.
4 Actually, if we could see the entire document, please. I'm sorry.
5 Q. General Delic, do you see this document on the screen in front of
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. This document, sir, appears to be dated December 1999. Can you --
9 can you explain to the Trial Chamber what this document was or is?
10 A. Yes, I can. In 1999 or perhaps towards end 1998, at the level of
11 the then-Army of the Federation, at the level of the General Staff, some
12 15 to 20 people with Ph.D.s were tasked with the task of producing this.
13 As for any commanders -- commands which were still in existence and those
14 that had been disbanded by that time and also those that were transferred
15 to the Army of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, were tasked with
16 procuring information needed to put together a joint analysis of the last
17 few years of the war. They needed to describe all combat operations
18 undertaken during the war with the lessons learned and experience derived
19 from that.
20 I don't think it said anywhere, but one of the goals was, I
21 believe, that a scientific plane, there was a need to record everything
22 that took place during the war. It was for the future soldiers to use
23 with all lessons learned. This tactical analysis is the result of that
24 activity. This was a task for the corps. It was for the first time that
25 the corps did something on a tactical level. It engaged all of its units
1 and this analysis was done in December 1998.
2 It was pursuant to an order that was in place that required that
3 an analysis be conducted concerning all combat operations. Not only
4 Vozuca but others in which we gained or lost territory, and what was
5 analysed were the temporal factors, the units that participated,
6 et cetera. I don't think it bore the fruit it was expected to, since
7 several years elapsed; in the meantime, some officers were not there any
8 longer; some had died by that time. So I don't think the project was very
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... Yes, you can
11 proceed now. Yes, Madam Vidovic.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, page 57, it seems to
13 be disappearing from the screen, but the witness was talking about the
14 activities of the corps conducted independently. I no longer see that
15 part on -- of the transcript, but I think instead of "independent," only
16 "activities" are being mentioned.
17 I have serious objections to interpretation today, and I will
18 request that tape be provided of General Delic's testimony for my review.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not able to solve the problem by just saying
20 to us what should have been said instead of "independent"?
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps the question
22 can be put by the Prosecutor. He mentioned the first independent activity
23 of the corps in the field, and that was not recorded. I cannot locate
24 that part. I might be able to do so during the break.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I can make it easier. It
1 was the only operation conducted by the corps independently during the
2 war. Until then, they're not in the position to engage 10.000 people in
3 order to implement an operation. That is why the corps command was tasked
4 with it. There was an order, I believe, in existence. I headed a team,
5 together with my deputy commander and the commander of the 25th Division.
6 There was another group of people, and the task was as I
7 described. We had to try to record the truth with the lessons learned for
8 generations to come. However, I don't think the very goal of the tactical
9 analysis was clearly described to us.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The first sentence in the witness's
11 interpretation -- the witness's answer is the way it should have been
12 recorded initially. I will try to verify that against the recording
13 during the break.
14 Your Honour, even what I'm saying is misinterpreted and it seems
15 to be going on the whole day.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I want to confess I'm not -- I'm at a loss. I'm
17 not quite sure what we're talking about now. I've tried to look for
18 this -- the word "independent." I can't find it. You keep standing up,
19 Madam Vidovic. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not able --
20 it was -- you said the first sentence was correct. "It was the only
21 operation conducted by the corps independently during the war." Now, I
22 get confused, because this document is dated 1999.
23 Now, if -- if this document was the only independent activity
24 conducted by the corps during the war, my question is: Did the -- was the
25 war still going on in 1999? So I thought this was a study after the war
1 for lessons that could be learnt from the previous experience. Or am I --
2 am I demonstrating how lost I am?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you are completely
4 correct. The war had ended and an order came from the General Staff of
5 the Army of the Federation.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... Let me stop
7 you there. [Microphone not activated] Let me stop you there. Because
8 it's when we talk too much that we get confused.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: If the war had stopped, this was just a study, as
11 you told us at the beginning when you dealt with this document, that it
12 was done by a number of Ph.D.s to learn the lessons of the war.
13 Okay. So it was not -- is it therefore correct or incorrect to
14 say, as -- as it is stated here at page 59, line 3: "It was the only
15 operation conducted by the corps independently during the war"? Is that
16 statement correct or is that a misstatement or a misinterpretation?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the only and the last one,
18 the first and the last operation conducted independently by the corps
19 during the war.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An operation is the most extensive
22 type of activity in which the entirety of a corps -- combat activity in
23 which an entire corps is included.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me understand. What is this operation that was
25 conducted independently during the war by the corps? What is this
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the only operation such
3 as that was the one under the code name Uragan 95. There were no others,
4 since most of the units of the corps could not be engaged in a single
5 task. Before that, we had no manoeuvring units and the conditions were
6 not in place to engage most of the corps, because the corps would have to
7 command, organise, and implement that. It was the only operation under
8 the command of the corps. Before that, operational groups, divisions, and
9 brigades and battalions and smaller groups carried out such tasks. Those
10 were combat activities and battles, the two types of activities conducted
11 by brigades. Operations are conducted by larger units. The largest unit
12 at the time was the corps. It engaged all of its forces within its area
13 of responsibility that were subordinated to it to carry out a large task.
14 This was the first and last time that we conducted an operation.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you, sir.
16 Okay. Obviously I was lost. It looks like you're talking about
17 Operation Uragan and not talking about this document, the -- the drafting
18 of this document. Is that -- do I now understand the situation better?
19 And maybe then if you can raise your objection, Madam Vidovic, I will
20 understand it better.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my objection was only
22 to interpretation. I managed to locate the thing that was wrong. I try
23 hard to follow what the witness is saying and the transcript, and he said
24 precisely what he just repeated; namely that, the corps for the first time
25 performed these activities independently. What was on the record - and I
1 draw your attention now, lest you think that I'm wasting the Court's time,
2 on page 57, lines 24 and 25 - instead of what the witness is recorded to
3 have said, that the corps did something for the first time independently,
4 he said the corps did something for the first time on the tactical level.
5 And you will notice the difference.
6 At least that's what he said. I am not going into the
7 interpretation of what he said. I'm just following the transcript.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic. Are your concerns now
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 You may proceed, Mr. Mundis.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 I would ask that the witness be shown page 5 in the Bosnian
15 version and page 8 in the -- or which is page 8 in the English version of
16 this document.
17 I'm sorry, I need -- I'm sorry, I need the next page in the
18 Bosnian version. And the top -- the top half of -- the top half of that
20 Q. General Delic, I would ask you if you could focus your attention
21 on the first full paragraph on this page, if you could read that to
22 yourself and familiarise yourself with the contents, I'll ask you some
23 questions in a moment.
24 A. I've read it.
25 Q. Can you comment, sir, on the information contained in that
2 A. I don't know whether this is an information or a brief. It's part
3 of that analysis, as far as I understand, and it describes what happened
4 on the 10th September, from the beginning of the attack, until the end.
5 It's an analysis of that activity. I don't think it's a brief. It's part
6 of the analysis.
7 Q. Does it -- does it describe accurately what happened on that day,
8 or is there information in this paragraph that's inaccurate, to the best
9 of your recollection?
10 A. It's certainly accurate, because I was at the head of that team.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 A. And my deputy was --
13 Q. Sorry, go ahead.
14 A. The commander of the 25th Division was also on that team. We took
15 all their documentation from the archives in the corps room. We had those
16 plans presented publicly. So these details are 99 per cent accurate, I
17 believe, in terms of territories and time.
18 Q. Thank you, General Delic.
19 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution tenders P02793 into evidence, Your
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Pardon. P02793 is
22 admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 407.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness again be shown an
1 electronic version of Exhibit 380. And if we could focus on the bottom
2 half of the map, perhaps. That's fine. That's fine. Thank you very
4 Q. Now, General Delic, can -- based on these documents that we've
5 just reviewed and your knowledge of what happened on the 10th of
6 September, 1995, are you able on this map to indicate which part of the
7 Vozuca pocket was liberated on that day?
8 A. This map is now rather blurred, and I don't see the lines. I had
9 that electronic pointer somewhere.
10 Q. I think -- I think, actually, we probably need to move the map a
11 little bit up.
12 A. On the 10th and the 11th, somewhere east to this mark "3rd Corps,"
13 that's where the line was -- rather, west of the 2nd Corps marking.
14 Q. Okay. Could you please take the pen, and can you circle that part
15 of the Vozuca pocket that was liberated on day one, that is, 10 September
16 1995, if you're able to do so.
17 A. Maybe I could more closely circle the 11th, but I'll try. I think
18 this is the line. [Marks]
19 Q. Okay. Now, General Delic, we need to be very clear about what
20 you've marked. What is to the south of that red line that you've just put
21 on this map?
22 A. South of that line is the place called the Vozuca with the
23 dominant features overlooking the place itself.
24 In the previous report you showed, the villages and hamlets that
25 were liberated are clearly indicated. I remember only one of them,
1 because it has the name Delic, like me. So we occupied those dominating
2 features, and we continued activities from there on.
3 Q. I just want to be sure everyone understands what you're saying,
4 sir. I -- was the Vozuca pocket or was part of the Vozuca pocket
5 liberated on the 10th of September, 1995?
6 A. Yes. Namely, the part that was of key importance to the
7 Banovici-Zavidovici road, including Vozuca and some villages and hamlets
8 north of Vozuca: Sljivici, Donjici, et cetera, as well as some other
9 dominant features I remember, Klupe, and some other features.
10 Q. Are you able, sir, on this map to circle the area that was
11 liberated by the 2nd and 3rd Corps on 10 September 1995?
12 A. I'll try. [Marks]. Roughly that would be it.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. MUNDIS: We'd ask that this map be admitted into evidence.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: This map is admitted into evidence. May it please
16 be given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 408.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 Would that be a convenient time, Mr. Mundis?
20 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 6.00. Court
24 --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 I've been informed by the Registry that I'm at the time which I'd
4 estimated the direct would take. I would ask, with the Court's
5 indulgence, that I be permitted to complete the direct examination, which
6 I expect will take some 35 to 45 additional minutes that. That includes a
7 15-minute video clip. I will instruct the witness to try to make the
8 answers a bit more concise.
9 Q. General Delic, I know we're all endeavouring to get you home as
10 soon as possible and the best way to guarantee that that happens is to
11 please focus on the question and answer just the question that's asked of
12 you. I -- as I indicated earlier, you have a broad knowledge of these
13 issues, but if you could please try to constrain your answer to the
14 question I asked, I would be very grateful to you, sir.
15 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, at this point in time, we would ask
16 that the witness be shown a video or a clip from a video which is from
18 And, sir, I'd ask that you please look at the screen in front of
19 you and watch this videotape.
20 There is a transcript of this video for benefit of the court -- of
21 the interpreters, but the first two or two and a half minutes, the
22 transcript is yet to be produced, so I would ask if the in-court
23 interpreters could deal with the first two to two and a half minutes and
24 then the remaining part of the tape a transcript has been produced.
25 [Videotape played]
1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Attention. At ease.
2 Dear soldiers, I congratulate you on this victory once again.
3 Once again, I thank you on behalf of all our people for what you have
4 done. I came to see you. What you have done is very important, this
5 victory on Vozuca is an important episode in our struggle.
6 Why? On one hand, it linked up two corps of our army that have
7 been separated for a long time. On the other hand, it linked up Zenica
8 and Tuzla, two of our great future centres on which our country relies.
9 You have accomplished a great mission, therefore.
10 Rahmet [phoen] to those who fell in this fight. And thank you,
11 you remain the pride and the hope of these people.
12 We managed to occupy most of the Vozuca pocket, around 106
13 kilometres in one day. We are continuing towards Upper Bosnia, and we
14 wish to link up further and to -- to continue towards Maglaj. Here is
15 Krivaja and here are we.
16 We reached -- and which road did we take? We took this road, you
17 see, the beautiful valley of Krivaja, Kljuc is there. Paljenik. We
18 passed this way. And here is the completed section. The village of Stog,
19 Stosnica, and Vozuca is here.
20 THE INTERPRETER: The transcript continues.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, perhaps the booth could assist us. We
22 have provided the transcript. I -- I understand it's not synchronised to
23 this tape, but we have provided the transcript of what's being said to the
24 language booths, but I'm apparently not getting any interpretation, at
25 least in the English.
1 THE INTERPRETER: We understood that we had to do the first two
2 minutes of -- that's what you said.
3 MR. MUNDIS: Sorry, that -- perhaps I -- I misspoke.
4 What we indicated was that there was no transcript for the first
5 two and a half minutes, but with the transcript we would ask that that be
6 read in conjunction with what's being said. I apologise for the
8 THE INTERPRETER: If you could rewind, then.
9 [Videotape played]
10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Hurricane -- we managed to capture
11 most of the Vozuca pocket, around 150 square kilometres in one day. After
12 the present day, we seized -- and now we continue along this ridge from
13 Karacici towards Bocinja Gornja and, if God wills, we want to get
14 connected with Maglaj and have our road so that we can use it and you can
15 use it without hindrance.
16 IZETBEGOVIC: That is Bosna?
17 Yes, this is Bosna.
18 And where is the Krivaja here?
19 The Krivaja is here, in the middle, and here are we.
20 We're here?
21 Yes. Yes. We are here.
22 Where did we come from now?
23 We have come from Zavidovici.
24 Which road did we take?
25 We took this road, you see. The Krivaja Valley is here, Kljuc.
1 The shouting in the background, Tekbir, Allahu Akbar. Paljenik, we passed
2 this way, and here is the collapsed section, the part that has collapsed,
3 the village of Stog, Stosnica and Vozuca is here.
4 MAHMULJIN: Now tell the president approximately where the
5 village is, to the left and right stretch, where one could settle.
6 HASANAGIC: The villages stretch on the right and on the
7 left-hand side of the Krivaja River. On the right of the Krivaja River,
8 those are the villages that were earlier inhabited by the Muslim people.
9 The entire region is Gareb and has several hamlets, but mainly that area.
10 On the left are Adzici and Hadzici. Hadzici is now Miljevici Kalajisi,
11 and again this part with Vozuca.
12 There are 28 villages.
13 How many have been liberated now?
14 All of them.
15 All of them have been liberated now.
16 Has anybody counted how many houses there are that can be
18 How certain is it that Chetniks cannot come back again?
19 We settle people here again and then they will be --
20 Our troops are now more than 13 kilometres north of here.
21 Sejo! President, here is the exact answer.
22 Chetniks cannot come here ever again.
23 The problem is the struggle with those who have been left behind,
24 that is.
25 Some pockets here and there.
1 No, those are two, three, or four who go together. That's the
2 only problem.
3 Today we are cleansing those two and, if God -- God willing, I
4 think we'll finish that today.
5 And as far as they're concerned, I don't know, it will take 10
7 10, 15 days at the most.
8 Can Chetniks in the future retake it in a counter attack? That
9 would be a tragedy.
10 No way, they cannot.
11 I'm interested -- you know what I'm interested in? If we settle
12 people here and then tomorrow they get killed again. You understand? You
13 come up to Vijenac and you will see which facilities are up here, how
14 strong they are, and then you will see for yourself whether that ...
15 We intend to settle the people from Srebrenica here. They have
16 experienced trouble once.
17 It should be like a bottleneck. Only through that bottleneck can
18 it ...
19 That's what I'm asking.
20 With this we release two brigades, more than two brigades. Now we
21 can -- 4.000 people.
22 4.000 people who can go guard it.
23 Even more with me.
24 And will it be necessary to do it -- the roofs to be done well
25 and --
1 The combat continues and the combat is in progress at this point
2 in time. We have not --
3 HASANAGIC: The combat is in progress at present too. The advance
4 is made towards Karcic along this part towards -- the yesterday alone the
5 2nd Corps liberated 18 kilometres.
6 As far as I understood you, Mr. President, you want to guarantee
7 the Chetnik cannot come back here any more. Here are two corps commanders
8 with our commanding officers, who can guarantee you the Chetnik will not
9 appear here any more. That's the gist.
10 IZETBEGOVIC: I agree that people come to settle, before, I am
11 quite sure it will not again happen to them to be -- because they've had
12 enough of that.
13 CENGIC: There is yet another certainty, President. Now we have
14 more new artillery and we can fight their artillery back.
15 IZETBEGOVIC: Fine. That's --
16 Therefore, Mr. President, we initially intended -- our plan was to
17 take Klupe, Kablovac, Plajenik and to make here, this is -- to make a cut
18 here in the initial plan. The second more optimistic option was this here
19 above Seona and so on. What we said would be most ideal. The most ideal
20 was Plavetno Brdo, Kvrge and Podsjelovo. However, Chetniks are in a panic
21 and we are going on further. Here you see this and this. This is in the
22 course of the day. We are going further. I wouldn't explain further
23 intentions now. It is not important anyway. Here are those who are
24 taking footage, but for your information the combat actions are still in
25 progress. Advances are being made. We shall make an effort to secure the
1 lines that have been reached. We shall advance as much as there is a
2 chance for it.
3 IZETBEGOVIC: What has the 2nd Corps done regarding this coloured
4 section and what --
5 This has been done by both.
6 IZETBEGOVIC: I mean territory-wise.
7 To be honest, this was all a joint action. I think it is a
8 coordinated action, and we will not have -- we do not remember having a
9 better coordination.
10 There was not a specific demarcation either as to who is to
11 participate where.
12 IZETBEGOVIC: And the units which took part?
13 The 1st Manoeuvre Battalion from Zenica, 375th Liberation Brigade
14 from Tesanj, 7th Muslim Brigade, Special Sabotage Detachment, complete
15 329th Brigade, which was here, 3rd Manoeuvre Battalion, the El Mujahid
16 Detachment with the 3rd, the 5th, 2nd Manoeuvre Battalion, 328th Brigade,
17 and 4th Manoeuvre Battalion from Zavidovici. That was that and all those
18 others. I beg your pardon?
19 HASANAGIC: And the 28th Brigade.
20 MAHMULJIN: 328th? I said that. So those were the units
21 together with all those support units that took part on behalf of the
22 3rd Corps. I mean, taking also into consideration the garrison manpower
23 and all those, there were between 12 and 14 thousand men on this side.
24 Everything you needed. Here we had a significant support. For the first
25 time we had around 1.000 members of the work obligation units, meaning the
1 men who carried the wounded, fortified the lines and so on, where we met a
2 lot of understanding. And Sejo can tell you who took part on behalf of
3 the 2nd Corps.
4 SEAD DELIC: Mr. President, we took part deploying three complete
5 divisions, all manoeuvre units, which means the 21st, 22, and 25th. And
6 all those divisions set aside their manoeuvre divisions except the 24th
7 and the 28th. All in all, some 5.200 attackers plus a brigade and 250
8 each. 225th and 224th, which took part as the garrison units, which were
9 deployed at this side at front, practically all the way to here, to these
10 lines. That was the demarcation line. I estimate some thousand.
11 And where was the connecting point connecting?
12 Well, I'll show you now on the ground. If you see up here this is
13 the highest elevation, it's called Pavlaka, a battalion of mine from there
14 got connected.
15 HASANAGIC: Here. It's here.
16 DELIC: With the forces in the 3rd Corps and the attack was
17 launched from above by the coordinated forces. We, however, for the
18 purposes of coordination and other issues drew the line. Krivaja was
19 mine. It was mine completely.
20 DELIC: And the Krivaja, the road and the Krivaja were
21 approximately -- the facility Prokop was the line. Here it is. Prokop and
22 the valley of this river --
23 HASANAGIC: Kamenica.
24 DELIC: The Kamenica, the valley of the Kamenica River.
25 Therefore, from here, this is beside the units from the 2nd Corps were
1 carrying out the attack. You have heard that the attack began at -- the
2 operations lasted intensively until 3.00. A breaking point occurred by
3 3.00 and then the Chetniks were already in disarray and the rest was
4 practically only a pursuit. Up here if you can -- I can bring you up to
5 the observation post.
6 This is, I think, the biggest war booty we've had so far and the
7 biggest loss we have inflicted on them by now. I estimate that there are
8 over 200 killed in my zone.
9 Therefore, my figure is correct.
10 There are over 200 -- [unintelligible] -- segement. And we have
11 some prisoners, less than that though, but the equipment is enormous. So
12 far let's say, for your information there are 7 armoured -- there is one
13 tank T-72, one T-55, two self-propelled batteries, one 90, and one 57/2,
14 one Praga, there is one Bofors, there are three Howitzers, one 22, some 30
15 to 40 different vehicles, trucks, accompanying ammunition and the rest.
16 MAHMULJIN: Don't say in Hadzija's presence. Not in Hadzija's
17 presence. Not all, he has not listed everything.
18 DELIC: I estimate that several hundred thousand pieces of small
19 ammunition were found too, but -- here I would say that even in the time
20 of peace I never experienced that everything was running according to
21 plans. It's a proof that we established a very good coordination with the
22 3rd Corps. We were even sending the company commanders to go on both
23 sides in order to know what kind of terrain was on both this and the other
24 side. To my knowledge, not a single bullet was fired by a 2nd Corps
25 soldier against the 3rd Corps soldier. The lines were marked extremely
1 well and at every moment we knew who was supposed to do what. The
2 artillery's support of both corps was extremely good. I would
3 particularly thank the 3rd Corps. I had an impression that they had more
5 Hadzija, you take care how you will handle that.
6 MAHMULJIN: We used it better.
7 DELIC: Let me tell you that only in that zone I had seven --
8 [unintelligible]. It has never happened in the 2nd Corps that in such
9 zone seven Howitzers and five tanks launched an attack. On this line now,
10 for example, there are four tanks that climb to the top.
11 IZETBEGOVIC: Found some food.
12 DELIC: We do not want that of the infidels. The rest --
13 CENGIC: He doesn't want to say that in my presence.
14 BRZINA: President, so that you wouldn't think that we are less
15 worthy. What the 2nd Corps commander told you about seizing those tanks
16 -- they were fleeing in front of us. We were chasing them.
17 DELIC: Fleeing, fleeing -- and fled from him. And then I told
18 him: There is a tank, and a self-propelled battery and a Praga. Go
19 there. Look for them. They fled in that direction. Therefore the
20 distribution is okay, I think.
21 IZETBEGOVIC: While we are celebrating, somebody is standing
22 guard up there, isn't it?
23 We are fighting now too. We are as close as here. He tells me,
25 AWAD AIMAN: We imprisoned one Chetnik who says that he served the
1 military in Doboj.
2 DELIC: We have some six teachers imprisoned. There are those
3 who have stayed alive, but I don't know if they still are. They were.
4 Generally, there were many of them who -- [unintelligible] -- for a month.
5 They created biggest problems for us. We launched four attacks from 6.00
6 to 1.00. We couldn't break through in this central area. We broke out at
7 7.00 here on the axis between Lozna and Seona. We broke through there and
8 we were almost close to Djurica Vis in order to get connected. However,
9 with God's help, things developed for the better. Even in the time of
10 peace at training I wouldn't expect better.
11 IZETBEGOVIC: Is there a room here where a conversation with
12 civilians could take place?
13 Probably there is. In the police administration.
14 MAHMULJIN: If you wish to stay here, we shall move away a bit.
15 IZETBEGOVIC: Thank you. I would just want to see the board
16 chairman here.
17 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Civilian authorities. There is room up
18 there. It's hot. Perhaps it's better if the President takes a break. I
19 wouldn't want the President -- because it's humid, or do you prefer it
21 IZETBEGOVIC: Then it's better here.
22 MAHMULJIN: Here, then we shall move all the others away.
23 DELIC: I want to congratulate the 3rd Corps soldiers on a
24 brilliantly performed operation in cooperation and coordination with the
25 2nd Corps. This is a textbook example of how something should be done and
1 I can tell all the members of the 3rd Corps that they were superheroes.
2 This is a victory that both corps could only wish for. I hope that we
3 shall meet in Doboj again and experience the same we experienced here.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, you stood up.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. If my learned
6 friend could check this video and compare the contents with what is on the
7 record, because I believe the transcript doesn't really reflect what the
8 speakers were saying. It seems that the names were confused.
9 For instance, when Mahmuljin was speak, it says "Cengic." If my
10 learned friend could check that and give us the transcript. I think the
11 names of the speakers are not properly recorded.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, I guess it will have been very difficult
13 to -- to follow up with the speed of the -- of the -- of the video. The
14 transcript is coming. We'll -- we'll double-check that.
15 Yes, Madam Lattanzi.
16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Absolutely. I have a problem
17 too. When there was talk about 200 dead, in the French version -- I also
18 have little problem because -- in the transcript, we talked about
19 prisoners mentioned -- and I would have liked to understand this, but
20 unfortunately I did not. So can we please check what was said. It was
21 when --
22 On page 4, line 6, 200 killed -- 200 dead and there was something
23 about prisoners of war.
24 This is not on the transcript.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did I understand you, Mr. Mundis, to say that a
1 transcript of this is coming?
2 MR. MUNDIS: There is a transcript of this, Your Honours, and
3 perhaps what we can do is, if I'm able to establish a -- a foundation with
4 this witness and get the tape admitted perhaps in the near future, we can
5 substitute a version of that tape that has the synchronised transcript at
6 the bottom. We were simply unable to do that in the time constraints that
7 were on the -- on us. But we can certainly substitute a -- a synchronised
8 version that would match, as Your Honours have seen, with respect to some
9 of the other videotapes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis. You may proceed.
11 Q. General Delic, this videotape that we just watched, do you know,
12 sir, when that videotape was made?
13 A. Yes. However, I was wrong. Although this footage was shown to me
14 in Sarajevo, before I was convinced that it was on the 10th of September.
15 However, I can see in the discussion here that it was on the 11th of
16 September, 1995.
17 Q. And, General Delic, where was this videotape made?
18 A. This videotape was made in the place called Vozuca by the road
19 next to the school in that settlement. I was late to that meeting. I
20 arrived late, as can be seen from the footage. I remember that event. I
21 didn't know that the late President Alija Izetbegovic would come. He came
22 unannounced to see what the situation was in the theatre.
23 Q. Do you recall approximately what time this video was made on the
24 11th of September, 1995 in Vozuca?
25 A. I think it was during the afternoon.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders this video clip
2 into evidence.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The video clip is admitted into evidence. May it
4 please be given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 409.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 Mr. Mundis, I don't know. You may perhaps still have questions
8 for this witness arising from this video. From myself, there are a number
9 of things I would like to establish while this witness is available from
10 this video. But I see your opposite member is on his feet.
11 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, yes. Sorry, I was a little late
12 standing up there, but we -- we're happy for the video to be admitted into
13 evidence subject to the caveat that an accurate transcript be provided to
14 the Chamber.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Certainly, certainly, Mr. Robson.
16 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely. And we'll notify the Chamber and the
17 Defence when the synchronised version is available, and if there are
18 concerns concerning the accuracy of the translations, I'm sure the Defence
19 will notify us, and we'll take whatever steps are required to make sure
20 that the transcript and translation thereof are -- are accurate.
21 Q. General Delic, now, this video clip that you've just watched, can
22 you identify any of the people that were visible on that videotape?
23 A. Yes. I know it by heart. I still remember it, and this was a
24 good reminder, this footage. The late President of the Presidency,
25 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic; Minister of the Interior, Mr. Bakir Alispahic;
1 Minister of the Interior of the County or the then -- or the current
2 canton of Tuzla, Mr. Rancic, the president of the then canton Izet Adzic
3 [phoen], commander of the logistics centre of the GLLC, the main logistics
4 centre of the Army of the Republic of BiH, Hadzija Cengic [phoen];
5 commander of the 7th Muslim Unit, General Halid Brzina; commander of the
6 3rd Corps, Sakib Mahmuljin; commander of the 35th Division of the
7 3rd Corps, I think his last name was Hasanovic. I'm trying to recall the
9 There were another two people. I believe they were from the
10 municipalities of Maglaj and Zavidovici. I don't know them; however, I
11 presume these were the people.
12 There were some other people in the President's entourage, but I
13 forgot what their names were.
14 In this footage, you can also see the chief of staff of the 25th
15 Division, from my division, Mr. Enver Delibegovic. Also in the footage,
16 as far as I could see, there were members of the 7th Muslim Brigade. I
17 don't know them by -- or I don't know them individually, but I could see
18 some soldiers or perhaps officers of the El Mujahid Detachment. I don't
19 know their names, though, and I am unable to identify them.
20 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, I am aware of time constraints. I do
21 have five still photographs. I think it would be helpful if the witness
22 could perhaps mark them and indicate on the identity of some of the
23 individuals contained on the videotape. I do believe that would be
25 So perhaps with the assistance of the usher, these five
1 photographs could be put on the ELMO, and the witness can perhaps identify
2 people on the tape. And I do have also a set of these for the Defence, as
4 Q. Let's start with -- start with that photo. Just if you could
5 leave them all there, please.
6 Now, General Delic, on the -- on the -- General Delic, on the --
7 on the machine to your right where the actual photo is -- we can't mark
8 this one. Sir, don't mark this one on the computer, but on the actual
9 picture next to you.
10 The gentleman in the -- do you know the gentleman in the green
11 short-sleeved T-shirt?
12 A. Yes. This is the chief of staff of the 25th Division. He was
13 also my chief of staff while I commanded the 5th operational group,
14 commander of the municipal staff, Adilja Delibegovic [phoen].
15 Q. General Delic, could you please take the pen marker that the usher
16 is handing you and just write his name, perhaps on his green T-shirt, so
17 that we know exactly it is you're talking about?
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Sir, the individual wearing the suit, the civilian suit, do you
20 know what who that is, and can you put his name on there, please.
21 A. If I may, this is the late President of the Presidency, Mr. Alija
23 Q. And do you recognise the person who's wearing the military cap?
24 A. Commander of the 3rd Corps, General Sakib Mahmuljin.
25 Q. Thank you very much.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps, we would ask that -- I don't know if it's
2 easier to tender all of five of these as one exhibit, perhaps.
3 If we could then go to the next photograph.
4 Q. Do you recognise any of the individuals in this photograph, sir?
5 A. [Marks]. This is the commander of the 35th Division.
6 Q. And --
7 A. Mr. Hasanagic. I think his rank was there of a brigadier.
8 Q. Thank you. Thank you, General Delic. And anyone else in this
9 photo that you recognise?
10 A. I have already identified these two men. I don't know who the
11 rest are. This is General Sakib Mahmuljin and the late President,
12 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.
13 Q. Perhaps, again, sir, if you could just please write their names
14 on -- on ...
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. If you could then take the next photograph, please, that's in
17 front of you, and put that on -- on top of -- take the --
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Were there more names that he recognised on that
19 last photo?
20 Q. Do you recognise anyone else, sir, on that previous photograph,
21 with Mr. Hasanagic, Mr. Mahmuljin, and President Izetbegovic? Do you
22 recognise any of those other people?
23 A. No. I think it is one of the officers of the 3rd Corps. I don't
24 know his name, though, the one standing behind the late President
25 Izetbegovic. I think he was from the engineers or communications, but I
1 don't want to speculate.
2 This is me, younger. This is General Brzina.
3 Q. And, again, sir, for clarification, what position did -- what --
4 what -- sorry. Sorry, sorry. What position did General Brzina hold?
5 A. General Brzina commanded the 7th Muslim Brigade. It was a
6 motorised brigade, the 7th Muslim Brigade. This -- this is Mr. Izet
7 Hadzic. He represents the civilian authorities. He was the president of
8 the county.
9 I can't make out the other faces. Perhaps we could see them
10 better in one of the forthcoming photographs.
11 Out of the faces here, I can recognise the commander of the Main
12 logistics centre, Mr. Halid Cengic. [Marks].
13 This is us here. I can identify the people by their uniform. You
14 can see me here again. I do not recognise any others.
15 In this photograph, this is the late President of the Presidency,
16 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic. Then the commander of the 3rd Corps, Mr. Sakib
18 I think these two -- well, at least one, either/or, is from the
19 El Mujahid Detachment; however, I don't want to speculate, since I don't
20 know their names and I never communicated with them.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: In fact I was going to ask the -- that if there are
22 any people whose names Mr. Delic doesn't know, but if he knows their
23 rank -- or their positions and what unit they belonged to, he must tell us
24 what they were. He has just done that which -- he says "either one of
25 these two is from the El Mujahid." I'm going to have to ask you to go
1 through the other pictures to -- to see if he can --
2 MR. MUNDIS: Okay.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- identify any of the other people at --
4 MR. MUNDIS: Let -- perhaps, Mr. President, I'll do that. Let me
5 just finish up with this photograph.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.
7 Q. Again, sir, I hate to be repetitive, but can you please write the
8 names of the individuals who you recognise on this photograph.
9 A. Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, Sakib Mahmuljin.
10 Q. Now, you've -- you've indicated that one of those -- one of the
11 other two gentlemen whose faces -- face is visible was from the
12 El Mujahid. Can you circle the two people you were referring to on this
14 A. Perhaps both of them. I don't know. But they were with that
15 group there. [Marks]
16 Q. Okay. And -- thank you. Now, if we could then go back to the --
17 to the previous picture. We're going to run quickly through the -- the
18 four pictures again. Is there anyone else -- I don't know if you
19 understood the Judge's -- the Presiding Judge's question. Do you
20 recognise anyone else not by name but by position or function? If there
21 was someone visible in this photo that you haven't marked that you know by
22 their position or function.
23 A. Not in these photographs. I did say that I know one person. I
24 think it was this person. He was from the 3rd Corps, I believe, from the
25 engineers or some other branch. But I don't want to speculate.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, maybe -- let me just ask a very pointed
2 question: At page 80, line 17 to 22, you said: "I don't know them by --
3 or I don't know them individually, but I could see some soldiers or
4 perhaps officers of the El Mujahid Detachment."
5 Are you able to identify an officer or a soldier of the El Mujahid
6 Detachment on all those photographs? Okay. You have -- you have
7 identified these two on this photograph. If you can go through the other
8 photographs, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to tell you what
10 I think, of course. I saw those units when I came there. I was late and
11 they were lined up. One of them -- or a part of them had long beards, but
12 they looked differently from the people of the 7th Muslim Brigade. I
13 presumed they were maybe from the El Mujahid Detachment; however, I don't
14 know any single one of them. This is not in these photographs.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me stop you. I understand that. I'm just
16 asking you based on the statement you made that you said you don't know
17 them individually -- I'm not asking you to give their names. I'm just
18 saying if you can say this is a soldier or officer of the El Mujahid
19 Detachment in all of these pictures as you see them. I'm not asking you
20 to -- to give their names, because you did say you don't know their names.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, this is
22 the Ramadan for us Bosniaks. I do not dare guess. I am uncertain. I
23 immediately said that I think this is who they were. I don't know. I'm
24 not sure what unit they belong to, since there were no one -- there was no
25 one else who looked like that. Perhaps these two --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please understand -- please understand what I'm
2 asking you, Mr. Delic. I'm not talking about the photograph. I'm talking
3 about the remainder of the photographs. Please can you remove the
4 photograph and go through the other photographs and just tell us if you
5 note anybody that you can -- that you say is an officer -- who you saw at
6 that -- on that day as a soldier or perhaps an officer of the El Mujahid
7 Detachment. Anybody on this picture?
8 Anybody on that one?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I suspect that it
10 could be this person, but I don't know. I didn't see him lined up or
11 introducing himself. He looks like one of them. I saw a group of them.
12 I don't know how many. He could be one of them, but I cannot be certain.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Delic, when you said, "I don't know them by or
14 I don't know them individually, but I could see some soldiers or perhaps
15 officers of the El Mujahid Detachment," what did you mean?
16 You said then -- at that page, you said you saw them. Now you're
17 saying you are guessing, you don't know. What's the problem?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain. When I arrived, it
19 was at the moment when the late President of the Presidency was inspecting
20 the line-up. I was late by some five to ten minutes.
21 The 7th Muslim Brigade were lined up, I believe. I think it was
22 that unit. And they looked differently from the El Mujahedin. They had
23 no beards. They were neat. And I concluded that those other people were
24 not from the 7th Brigade but from the El Mujahid Detachment. No one else
25 could have looked like that.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just explain what my question is to you about. I'm
2 not asking you about the line-up that was done by the previous President.
3 I'm asking you to look at these photographs, all of them, and just
4 identify the people that you say you saw as soldiers or perhaps officers
5 of the El Mujahid. And if you -- now, I -- that I can understand what you
6 are saying.
7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would like to maybe take the
8 floor here. Maybe I understood something differently because I'm
9 following the French version and not the English version. But in the
10 beginning -- could we have the -- the photograph where there were the two
11 people which he believes could belong. Thank you.
12 So when we started and he saw this picture, in the French
13 interpretation, I understood that he was just guessing that they might be.
14 He wasn't really sure. Did I understand you right? Because that's what I
15 got from the French translation. I don't know what's in the English
16 transcript, but from the French this is what I understood that, the
17 witness was just guessing.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you understand -- you
19 understood well. That is what I meant. I suppose. I don't know them.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: General, do you remember which language they
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My feeling was that both of them
23 spoke to the late President, and I think they spoke Bosnian. I don't
24 think there was anyone there interpreting, as far as I could see.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Mundis.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 We would move the five photographs that the witness has marked
3 into evidence, please.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The photographs are admitted into evidence. May it
5 please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 410.
7 MR. MUNDIS: Now --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 Q. General Delic, on this day, 11 September 1995, do you know where
10 General Rasim Delic was?
11 A. I suppose I might be wrong in terms of country, but I think he was
12 in either Indonesia or Malaysia. However, he was abroad. That is the
13 correct answer. He wasn't in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 Q. And just so we're clear then, sir, on the 11th of September, 1995,
15 General Rasim Delic was not in Vozuca with these other individuals that we
16 saw on the tape.
17 A. Yes, precisely.
18 Q. Do you recall, sir, that the -- the next time after this meeting,
19 that is, after 11 September 1995, do you recall the next time you saw
20 General Rasim Delic?
21 A. I recall the place and the event when I saw him. It was in the
22 Lukavac municipality, the settlement of Vijenac, to the south-west from
23 the municipality of Lukavac at one of the observation posts where I
24 acquainted him with the situation. The time is late August. The last
25 third of the month of August, between the 20th and the end of the month or
1 perhaps the 18th or 19th towards the end. In the last third, the last
2 decade of the month of August.
3 Q. Perhaps it's an interpretation error. I'm asking you about after
4 September 11th, 1995.
5 A. September. I apologise. Not August. September.
6 Q. I would ask that the witness be shown P02656. P02656.
7 Do you see the document on the screen in front of you, sir?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this document relates to?
10 A. This document was drafted by the morale administration in Sarajevo
11 on the 24th of September, 1995. It contains information on a visit to the
12 units which participated in the liberation or the liberation operation by
13 the army general commander Rasim Delic.
14 Q. Thank you, sir.
15 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution would move this document into
16 evidence, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
18 please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 411.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 Q. General Delic, we heard on the earlier videotape about the issue
22 of prisoners of war during the operation to liberate the Vozuca pocket.
23 Can you briefly - again briefly, sir - tell us about any information you
24 had concerning prisoners of war taken during that operation and
25 particularly in the first day or two of that operation.
1 A. The first day, the situation was quite unclear. The overall
2 balance of what was recorded and what the situation was in the field was
3 that within the area of responsibility of the 2nd Corps, I think 163
4 people were caught. It may have been 136 instead of 163, but I think it
5 is 163.
6 Another 30 soldiers were taken prisoner by the Olovo Brigade in
7 the surroundings of the town of Olovo, to the south of there by some 30 or
8 40 kilometres. Therefore, the total figure is around 183. The 163
9 captured were registered by the International Red Cross. At the beginning
10 of 1993, they were all handed over safe and sound to the authorities of
11 the smaller entity.
12 Q. Sorry, General, it may have been a -- an error or a translation
13 error. The English transcript refers to them being handed over at the
14 beginning of 1993. Is --
15 A. 1996, after the Dayton Accords. I don't know the exact date.
16 February or March 1996. Around that time, in the first trimester of 1996.
17 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown P02702.
19 Q. General Delic, do you see the document on the screen in front of
21 A. Yes, I see it. The document is from the command of the 3rd --
22 sorry, part of the command of the 3rd Corps, the section of military
23 intelligence service sent to the command of the 2nd Corps, that is, my
24 command; also to the section of the military intelligence section, 5th
25 October 1995, and it relates to the captured aggressors' soldiers and
1 civilian persons on the Ozren-Vozuca battlefield.
2 Q. Do you -- do you know, General Delic, why 3rd Corps military
3 intelligence service sent this document to the military intelligence
4 service of 2nd Corps?
5 A. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure. I can only say that due to
6 that horizontal link and cooperation, there's nothing of particular
7 interest. But this is about soldiers. I don't think it was particularly
8 important to the 3rd -- to the 2nd Corps on any grounds whatsoever.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we'd ask that this document be admitted
10 into evidence.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
12 please be given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 412.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Can the witness now be shown P02720. P02720.
15 Q. General Delic, do you see the document on the screen in front of
17 A. Yes, I see it.
18 Q. Can you see from this document who this document is -- what entity
19 this document is from and to whom it's addressed?
20 A. It's written at the top: "The International Committee of the Red
21 Cross" probably,"Tuzla," dated 19 October 1995.
22 Q. To whom -- to whom is the letter addressed?
23 A. It says: "Dear sir." And below, it's written that it's addressed
24 to Brigadier Sead Delic, commander of the 2nd Corps in Tuzla, a copy to
25 Mehmed Zilic, chief of the Security Service of the 2nd Corps, also to
1 Enver Hodzic [phoen], deputy commander of the 2nd Corps of the BH army for
2 legal affairs and president of the commission of the 2nd Corps for the
3 exchange of prisoners of war.
4 Q. Could you please on the English version scroll to the top of the
6 General Delic, do you see the stamp on the upper part of this
7 document and if so, can you tell us what that is.
8 A. It means that this document was received by the command of the
9 2nd Corps. More precisely, by the section of the military security
10 service. It was received on the 25th October 1995.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we'd ask that this document be admitted
12 into evidence.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document --
14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question to ask. In the
15 video, we have seen a while ago, at a given moment, you personally say
16 that the prisoners are being made, some people have been taken alive, and
17 you don't know if they are still alive or not. Was this something
18 accurate? Did you indeed say that? And what did you mean to say with the
19 expression "I do not know if they are still alive"? What did you mean by
20 that expression?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did say that. You know that in
22 war those who are in perfect health are sometimes captured along with
23 those who are wounded seriously or lightly. In that situation, I didn't
24 have full reports about what the situation was and what happened with
25 those people. There were not 5 but 163. But that was for the whole
1 operation. On the first day, there were around 80.
2 You heard me well and the translation is accurate.
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
5 please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 413.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 Q. General Delic, I have two more documents to show you. And, again,
9 I'd ask if you could please focus on my questions so that we can wrap up
10 this part of your testimony as quickly as possible.
11 In the summer of 1995, sir, can you tell us whether the 2nd Corps
12 had any capabilities to intercept communications -- electronic
13 communications or radio communications or telephone communications.
14 A. Your Honours, throughout the war the 2nd Corps had very modest
15 equipment, but it had a section for surveillance and eavesdropping on
16 enemy forces. The equipment we had enabled all units to eavesdrop on each
17 other. Those are very simple devices, IUP 3, IUP 33, PRC, IUP 12. On
18 those device, it's very easy to find a frequency and listen in on the
20 So my answer is "yes," to the extent that our equipment enabled us
21 to eavesdrop.
22 Q. And, General Delic, can you again, sir, briefly describe what was
23 done with any information that was intercepted.
24 A. All the information gathered through intercepts, if they were raw
25 material -- and why do I say "raw material"? During the war, I sometimes
1 organised myself false radio networks to deceive the enemy.
2 This raw material would always be submitted to the competent
3 intelligence authority, which would select and analyse the material.
4 After their selection and analysis, in the measure necessary, the
5 commander would be informed personally or the parties involved would be
6 informed. That was the collation of that material.
7 These persons had no other job but to note down anything they
8 heard or taped during a radio communication they intercepted. They would
9 then distribute it to the competent organs, which in their turn would
10 analyse it in detail.
11 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness be shown P02282.
13 Q. General Delic, do you see the document on the screen in front of
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what this document is.
17 A. It's a document compiled by radio surveillance. It's probably
18 that section, the company for radio surveillance was submitting this
19 information to the corps, depending on the area of responsibility.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.
21 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I note from the document that this
22 witness's name doesn't appear in the document. And I just wondered if we
23 could perhaps -- it's an objection. If we could ensure that we have a
24 solid foundation before proceeding to ask questions from the witness about
25 the contents of the document.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, the witness has described the process
3 by which the 2nd Corps personnel who were responsible for such intercepts
4 conducted such intercepts. I can ask him one or two more questions about
5 information contained on the face of the document. Again, I'm not to the
6 point of tendering the document into evidence.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you mean not to the point of tendering the
8 document into evidence?
9 MR. MUNDIS: I'm going to ask the witness a few more questions
10 about the document and then tender it into evidence and I'm not sure --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
12 We'll hold the objection in abeyance.
13 Q. General Delic, can you tell the Trial Chamber who produced this
14 document and to whom it's addressed.
15 A. It's addressed to the command of the 2nd Corps.
16 I would like to explain to the Trial Chamber. When a document is
17 addressed to the command of the 2nd Corps, it first goes to the office.
18 The office then sends it to the operations centre, to an office where it
19 is recorded and given a reference in the files. And the operations centre
20 then forwards it to the competent organs for further action.
21 Now, whenever intercepts were concerned, they would be sent to the
22 intelligence organ that would analyse the contents. So this was sent by
23 the group who intercepted this exchange. It says that it was on a high
24 frequency -- in the high frequency range, and it's always indicated in
25 whose area of responsibility it was. In this case, it was the 22nd
1 Division of the 2nd Corps.
2 Q. And, General Delic, can you inform the Trial Chamber what this
3 intercept in the 22nd Division AOR relates to?
4 A. Your Honours, if I can make it clear. The area of responsibility
5 of the 22nd Division covered an area west of Tuzla: Lukavac, Gracanica,
6 Doboj, Doboj Istok. So it was towards the town of Doboj and towards
7 Ozren, towards the Bosna River. From Spreca River towards Bosna River.
8 This is a conversation between two persons, one of them, as it says here
9 Mujahid, and the other is a delta X delta Y [Realtime transcript read in
10 error "delta your excellency"]. The time is -- I expect it probably on
11 the same day, 22nd July.
12 You see the transcript, of course, but this Mujahid is talking to
13 one of the enemy soldiers or officers saying that they have one captive,
14 and they are asking that another 100 men who are still defending
15 surrender; otherwise, they would kill this captive by slitting his throat.
16 You have it in the English version, so I'm not going to read it.
17 Q. General Delic, you -- you just indicated as reflected on lines 23
18 and 24 of page 96, a conversation between two persons, delta X and delta
19 Y, I believe you said, which for some reason says "delta your excellency"?
20 Can you tell us who these -- or what these delta X and delta Y
22 A. I can only suppose that those were our adversaries. So it's
23 between Bosniaks and Serbs if I'm correct.
24 Q. Do you see, sir --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just -- is this a conversation between two
1 people or three people? I think the witness said the participants are
2 Mujahid, delta X, and delta Y. And if you look at it, there's an M,
3 there's an X, and there's a Y, as they speak.
4 Here it is in the -- in the --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Precisely. And
6 that is how the contents of this exchange was described. This is raw
7 material, the way it was taped. They didn't add anything or analyse
8 anything. They just transmitted it as they intercepted it.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... Confirmation
10 as to whether there are two or three participants. Let's just -- can we
11 be a little more focused in your answers.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Three, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 Q. General Delic, right up at the top, under the line indicating
15 "22nd Division," there's a reference to the 35th Srbacka Brigade. Do you
16 know what that is, sir?
17 A. I think it's the Srbac Brigade. That's why I said those were
18 enemy forces. They were performing combat activities somewhere in the
19 area where this intercept was made.
20 Q. And you say, sir, "enemy forces." Which military force, to the
21 best of your knowledge, was the 35th Srbacka Brigade a component?
22 A. Please, Your Honours, in line 2 it reads: "In the 35th Srbac
23 Brigade, camouflage nets should be delivered." That's what they were
24 listening on. They found this piece of information in -- in a
25 conversation. Somebody was asking somebody for camouflage nets. And then
1 after that, we read: "We are supplying you with the original conversation
2 held on high frequency in UVF range somewhere in Ozren." It was located as
3 being Mount Ozren. There were three participants: One, Mujahid; one
4 delta X; and a third, delta Y. So this is an original conversation.
5 I don't know whether those people were in the Srbac Brigade or
6 not, because this first bit of information relates exclusively to the
7 camouflage nets, not the conversation between these three.
8 Q. My question, sir, is if you know the -- in which military force
9 the 35th Srbacka Brigade was a component.
10 A. The armed force of the so-called Republika Srpska.
11 Q. Now, General Delic, a few moments ago you made reference to a
12 tape. Do you know what -- whether these conversations were taped? And if
13 so, what happened to the tape?
14 A. All conversation, all intercepts were taped. I'm 99 per cent sure
15 that they were all delivered to the intelligence section of the 2nd Corps.
16 That's where they were analysed and possible distribution of information
17 was performed.
18 If an intercept did not yield the expected results, I suppose that
19 since we were short of resources, tapes could have been re-recorded.
20 However, a written trace remained and it was archived in the appropriate
21 organ of the command of the 2nd Corps.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution would ask that P02282 be
23 admitted into evidence, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: P02282 is admitted into evidence. May it please be
25 given an exhibit number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 414.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, I'm aware of the time. I have one
4 remaining document. I would ask the Court's indulgence to proceed and
5 then that would complete the examination-in-chief.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
7 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness be shown P02899.
9 Q. While that's coming up, sir, can you tell -- remind the Trial
10 Chamber what position you held in November 1997.
11 A. In November 1997 until the 1st of October, 2000, I was commander
12 of the 2nd Corps of the Federation Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
13 Q. Can you take a look, sir, at the document on the screen in front
14 of you and tell the Trial Chamber what this document is.
15 A. The heading says: "The joint command of the Army of the
16 Federation, administration for intelligence and security."
17 There is no mark "strictly confidential" -- in fact, there is no
18 strictly confidential number. The date is 14 November. It says:
19 "Prevention of arrest of members of the former El Mujahid unit. Order."
20 It's addressed to the 2nd Corps of the Republic of Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina army command and to the 7th Motorised Brigade. The
22 typewritten signature is Rasim Delic, army general, but there is no
23 signature in his hand.
24 Q. Can --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.
1 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, based on what the witness has just
2 explained to the Court, in the absence of any stamp or sort of official
3 notification of where perhaps the document may have arrived or come from,
4 in the absence of any signature, we will be objecting to the admission of
5 this document into evidence 1-6R7B8G9 --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you think you would like to wait until the time
7 when you are ready the object?
8 MR. ROBSON: Yes. Well, I'll hold back, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
10 Q. General Delic, can you see on the upper right-hand portion of this
11 document an indication of the method by which this document was to be
13 A. It says here that it was sent by packet communication, but you
14 also see what I said a moment ago, that it was sent by the intelligence
15 for intelligence and security and there is no reference number.
16 The administration drafted this and the signature says:
17 "Commander of the General Staff, Rasim Delic." This seems to be in a bit
18 of a contradiction. The sender is the administration and the signature is
19 of the general, the commander of the General Staff.
20 Q. General Delic, do you have any recollection of ever receiving or
21 seeing this document before?
22 A. I've already said. I haven't seen this document before. And if
23 it had been received, it must have been received by the command of the 2nd
24 Corps, recorded, and given a number. If it had reached the command of the
25 2nd Corps, it would have been received by the intelligence organ or the
1 security organ of the 2nd Corps.
2 It is verifiable. We have records, and I'm sure it can be
4 Q. Thank you, General Delic.
5 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution would move this document into
6 evidence, Your Honours.
7 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I raise the objection at this point.
8 As I say, we can see in the top left-hand corner a place where you would
9 normally see a number. We see from other documents that you would often
10 find a stamp here. Obviously there's no signature on the document. And
11 also, contrary to -- to many of the other documents we've seen, there's no
12 sort of handwritten signature to indicate that it's been sent or received
13 by anybody. So in the absence of any of these sort of indicia, the
14 Defence would say -- raise serious doubts as to the reliability of this
15 document and therefore we suggest that it shouldn't be entered.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The reliability, yes, understandable.
17 MR. ROBSON: And also, of course, what the witness has just told
18 you, as well, his comments.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. Okay. You're raising doubts about its
20 reliability but not its admissibility. That's a question of weight to be
21 attached to the document.
22 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, we also -- it raises questions about the
23 authenticity as well.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well -- yeah, but we are told here that it was sent
25 by electronic means. How does one get a signature on an -- well, I don't
1 know what this was. I don't know what is meant by "electronic means,"
2 anyway.. I will not go into that.
3 Mr. Mundis.
4 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution would simply indicate, as the
5 Presiding Judge has, that the issues raised by the Defence go more to the
6 issue of the weight to be given to the document rather than its
8 With respect to the -- to the arguments concerning authenticity,
9 there has been evidence before Your Honours about the way certain
10 documents were handled or transmitted, and I don't want to say anything
11 further, particularly in front of the witness with respect to that issue.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I understood well,
14 the witness has finished with his comments on this document, because it
15 has been tendered.
16 So, first of all, we first contest the authenticity of this
17 document. We first contest the authenticity. And if you would allow me
18 to finish.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we just hold on.
20 Yes, Mr. Mundis, are you -- [Microphone not activated].
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you objecting to anything that Madam Vidovic is
24 MR. MUNDIS: I'm simply raising concerns about anything that might
25 be said in the presence of the witness, despite the fact that I'm done
1 questioning him, other parties or the Defence or the Chamber may have
2 questions for this witness later concerning this document, and I simply
3 want to put on the record that perhaps the witness could be excused for
4 the evening before anything further is said about the document.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Delic, you are -- okay.
6 Mr. Delic, we are just about to finish for the day. You are
7 excused. You may come -- come -- please come back tomorrow at quarter
8 past 2.00 in this same courtroom, III. Okay? We'll continue with your
9 testimony tomorrow. Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour thank you.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as I was saying, we
14 first object to the authenticity of this document. The thing is every
15 document must have a number under which it was filed. We see here:
16 "Administration for intelligence and security," and below that, there is a
17 line intended for the number. A number would be indicated.
18 You are right that it was sent by electronic means, packet
19 communications, as it was called, but every transmission by packet
20 communications is recorded with a small note: "Sent by packet
21 communication or sent electronically." There is no such note here and no
22 signature and no stamp. This document would never have been sent from the
23 General Staff.
24 We have good reason to doubt this. Such a document does not
25 exist. We have serious doubts about this and some other documents that
1 the Prosecution is using here. This is not the only one.
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a problem. It's not the
3 same problem as that raised by the Defence, because on other occasions
4 we've seen documents that were not fully comprehensive and we admitted
5 them. But what makes me really have doubts about whether this document
6 can be admitted is what the witness actually noted. This document seemed
7 to be signed by Rasim Delic but was written by the administration for
8 intelligence and security. Tomorrow we'll probably ask the witness how it
9 could happen that a document that is sent by an administration -- by the
10 administration in intelligence and security be signed by Rasim Delic. I
11 beg to differ with the other people in the court. It's not a problem of
12 weight. I think it's really a problem of admissibility.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hope, Judge Lattanzi, you understand that I was
14 not making a ruling that this is -- I was -- I was taking the words used
15 by the counsel, who said "we doubt its reliability." So I was saying to
16 him that if you doubt it's reliability, then we are not dealing with
17 admissibility; we are dealing with a question of weight. And then he then
18 said, "No, we also doubt its authenticity." So I was not saying that
19 it -- okay?
20 Mr. Mundis, you had -- do you have a response to Madam Vidovic's
22 MR. MUNDIS: I -- I -- I don't believe at this point the
23 Prosecution has anything else to add. I -- I will note that I'm not sure
24 the basis for Mrs. Vidovic saying this document would never have been sent
25 from the General Staff, on lines 20 to 22 on page 104. But we have
1 nothing further to add.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you perhaps have any other witness through whom
3 you can book? Do you need it marked for identification?
4 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely. In the event the Chamber does not admit
5 the document, I absolutely would like to document admitted --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: For identification.
7 MR. MUNDIS: -- into evidence and we'll have to call the
8 archivist, who can tell the Chamber exactly where this document came from.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. In that event, it will be marked for
10 identification. Can the it be given an exhibit number, please..
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that can be MFI 415.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 Mr. Mundis.
14 MR. MUNDIS: I just assumed we were going to rise for the evening,
15 Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, not until you've told me that we should do
18 Okay. Court adjourned until tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the
19 same court.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.14 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Friday, the 21st day of
22 September, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.