Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2903

1 Monday, 24 September 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in court today. And

7 Mr. Registrar would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-04-83-T, Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Could we have the

11 appearances, please, starting with the Prosecution.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

13 Honours, counsel and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

14 Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Matthias Neuner, assisted by our case

15 manager, Alma Imamovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

17 morning to my learned friends from the OTP, to all those in and around the

18 courtroom. My name is Vasvija Vidovic and together with

19 Mr. Nicholas Robson, I represent Mr. Delic. With us we have our assistants

20 Lana Deljkic and Lejla Gluhic.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic. Can we just

22 hold on please. We're having a problem. It looks like we are stuck.

23 Would you like assistance? Would you like a short adjournment?

24 A short adjournment will be called.

25 [Technical difficulty]

Page 2904

1 --- Recess taken at 9.07 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 9.27 a.m.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I suppose we'll have to start all over again,

4 because --

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I'm told we don't have to introduce the

7 case.

8 Then we were at the stage where we just had appearances.

9 Once again, Mr. Delic, as I said the other day, I know you do know

10 that you took the declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth, and

11 nothing else but the truth, but it's still my responsibility to remind you

12 that you are still bound by that declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 Thank you very much.

16 Judge Harhoff.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Questioned by the Court: [Continued]

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Good morning, General.

21 A. Good morning, Your Honour.

22 Q. I have a single question relating to one part -- one part of your

23 testimony. I think it was Thursday last, on the 20th of September. And

24 the issue goes to your knowledge of how the 3rd Corps was organised.

25 Let me read out to you what you said on Thursday. The Prosecution

Page 2905

1 asked you - and for reference, this is page 2750, if you are interested to

2 know, line number 7 - the -- the Prosecution asked you: "Do you know

3 which units of the 35th Division were involved in Operation Farz?"

4 And your answer was: "No, I can only guess. What I saw in Vozuca

5 was that there were probably the 7th Muslim Division, the El Mujahid

6 Detachment. I saw men with beards."

7 These were your words, and we also heard you give an answer to the

8 Prosecution's question where the Prosecution asked you: "General Delic,

9 other than the ARBiH 2nd Corps units, what military force or forces were

10 deployed along the Ozren front?"

11 And your answer was, as follows: "From what I know, those were

12 units of the 3rd Corps of the BH army, which were then grouped in the 35th

13 Division of the 3rd Corps."

14 Obviously the issue of how the 3rd Corps was organised is a

15 sensitive issue in this case, so I don't know if I could do something

16 perhaps rather unusual by asking the parties if any of the parties would

17 have -- would be so kind as to explore with the witness his knowledge of

18 how the 3rd Corps was organised; and, of course, in particular, if he

19 knows whether the El Mujahid Detachment was under the command of the 3rd

20 Corps. And if he knows, then just how that was organised.

21 This is my question that I have to the witness. And rather than

22 putting the question myself, I'd rather I leave it to the parties to seek

23 to explore this issue a bit with the witness, if that is acceptable.

24 Mr. Prosecutor, Madam Vidovic, if you have anything to ...?

25 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, I'm not sure if -- if this current

Page 2906

1 witness can take that much further, but we certainly will have additional

2 witnesses, including the witness who's scheduled to appear later today,

3 who might be in a better position to address these issues.

4 So the Prosecution view would be that, I think we've taken this as

5 far as we could with this witness. Perhaps if the Bench wants to ask him

6 additional questions concerning the basis of the knowledge concerning the

7 evidence he's already given, certainly that would be an appropriate

8 position, but -- but our view would be we have witnesses who are better

9 placed to address that issue, including one who is scheduled to appear

10 later this morning.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

12 Mr. Robson.

13 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, we share the same view as the

14 Prosecution and would support that. It's the Defence's position that this

15 witness was not in a position to know well the structure of the 3rd Corps,

16 and so we would prefer it if this matter was dealt with in -- with

17 subsequent witnesses.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. I accept this. So I have no further

19 questions. Thank you.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 I've got only three issues --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, apologies. The issue

23 involved Vozuca itself, not the operation in Vozuca. That's why there was

24 this confusion. I knew - and it is undoubtedly so - that on the other

25 side the largest involved unit was the 3rd Corps, or rather, its 35th

Page 2907

1 Division.

2 The question you put concerned the units which arrived in Vozuca

3 on -- about which we saw the video clip. That was the only difference.

4 It -- the fact of the matter was not Farz or Uragan; rather, the units

5 that were present in Vozuca. And this is what you wanted to know.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: It was indeed. Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 I have just three issues to raise with you, sir. The first one

9 relates to maybe the need to check whether the transcript is correct.

10 At page 2776, line 2, this is what was said about -- this is

11 what -- I just want to get the ... Yeah, at line 2, you were asked the

12 question: "While we were celebrating, somebody is standing guard up

13 there, isn't it? We are fighting now too. We are as close here -- as

14 here. He tells me, "President." And then Awad Aiman: "We imprisoned one

15 Chetnik who says that he served the military in Doboj."

16 And then you say, "We have some six teachers imprisoned." This is

17 what's written here. I didn't hear "six teachers." I heard something

18 else.

19 Let me read to you the entire answer that you gave to remind you

20 so that you may be -- maybe you may be able to remember. It says:

21 "Mr. Delic: We have some six teachers imprisoned. There are those who

22 have stayed alive, but I don't know if they -- they still are. There

23 were -- generally, there were many of them who --" and then something

24 cannot be understood "-- for a month. They created biggest problems for

25 us. We launched four attacks from 6.00 a.m. to 1.00 a.m. We couldn't

Page 2908

1 break through in this central area. We broke out at 7.00 here on the axis

2 between Lozna and Seona. We broke through there and we were almost close

3 to Djurica Vis in order to get connected. However with God's help, things

4 developed for the better. Even in the time of peace at training, I

5 wouldn't expect better." This is during the clip. This is what you are

6 supposed to have said during the clip.

7 Now, to the best of your recollection, did you say you have six

8 teachers or did you say something else?

9 A. Your Honour, last time I spoke to Her Honour about this. I

10 believe that the translation was good. The information I received was

11 that there were five to six professors or teachers - I don't know what

12 they were - who were captured. I also explained to Her Honour that one

13 does not only take prisoner of those who are alive and well in wartime but

14 also those who are slightly or seriously wounded. I didn't know what the

15 situation was at the time.

16 I have to tell you that I did not have in my possession full

17 information. There may have been these five to six, but there were the

18 total of 80 captured; whereas, for the three days of the action, there

19 were 163 prisoners in all.

20 I believe that the translation was good and that this is indeed

21 how the conversation unfolded. I don't know exactly what the President

22 asked, and so this is my answer.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want to be sure that you were talking about

24 six teachers. Thank you very much.

25 Then on Thursday last week we were still talking when the Judge

Page 2909

1 here asked you about something else. And I would like to -- to follow up

2 what we were talking about at that time.

3 And if we could please have Exhibit 410 on the screen.

4 Now, this exhibit is made up of five photographs. I would like us

5 to go through each one of those photographs. I would like you to show us

6 those people that you said were either soldiers or officers of the El

7 Mujahid Detachment. Do you see anyone on this photograph?

8 A. No, Your Honour. But if you'll allow me?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, if I'll allow you?

10 A. I may not have been quite clear in my previous answer. These were

11 not civilian teachers. These were soldiers who were teachers by

12 profession. So as to avoid any confusion, those captured were members of

13 the Army of Republika Srpska, who were otherwise teachers by profession.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much for that clarification. Let's

15 now deal with this -- there are going to be five photographs shown here.

16 On this photograph here, do you see anybody here that you said was a

17 soldier or an officer of the El Mujahid Detachment?

18 A. No, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see the next photograph, please, of the same

20 exhibit. Can we enlarge it, please.

21 Do you see anybody here?

22 A. Your Honour, you said that I should not speculate. I will assume

23 that these two -- oh, we've lost the image.

24 In the background, behind President Izetbegovic and the commander

25 of the 35th Division and Mr. Sakib Mahmuljin, the general, there are three

Page 2910

1 persons out of whom two have beards; one of them wearing a white cap. And

2 I believe the two of them were members.


4 A. I don't think they were members otherwise of the 7th Muslim.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, I'm not asking you about the 7th Muslim, sir.

6 I'm asking you about the El Mujahid Detachment.

7 I see red dots on two persons. Are those the persons that you're

8 identifying?

9 A. Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Can you go to the next photo,

11 please.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please. Could -- well, I, yeah, let's save

14 that and give it an exhibit number, please.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit number 424.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 Can we go to the next photograph, please.

18 Do you see anybody here that you would recognise as being an El

19 Mujahid Detachment soldier or officer?

20 A. No. No, Your Honour.


22 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've been thinking

24 about this for quite a while, but I have to react. My apologies to Their

25 Honours; however, I am quite concerned with this line of questioning.

Page 2911

1 At no point in time did the witness say that he was familiar with

2 the structure of the El Mujahid Detachment or their officers. The fact

3 that he sees a person who is bearded cannot bear any weight. And I'm

4 really concerned about such questions.

5 I believe the witness was quite direct in his answer to Her Honour

6 Judge Lattanzi's question. And I'm quite concerned with the fact that the

7 witness is called upon to further speculate and to point at matters he is

8 not certain about. I wish to state this for the transcript -- for the

9 record.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, this -- the basis for my questions

11 is the testimony of the witness. The witness testified, and I quoted the

12 testimony to the witness. He said he saw soldiers or officers of the El

13 Mujahid Detachment at this celebration. Now I'm just asking him to tell

14 us who are those people that he saw that he identified as officers or

15 soldiers of the El Mujahid.

16 And you will remember -- you're saying he answered

17 Judge Lattanzi's questions. Judge Lattanzi asked those questions while I

18 was in the middle of asking these questions last Thursday. And I left it

19 at that point because I knew I would still have this opportunity to ask

20 these questions.

21 I'm not asking the witness to speculate. I'm asking him to tell

22 us who are these people that he -- he said in his testimony he saw who are

23 soldiers or officers of the El Mujahid. If he says he doesn't see them

24 here, it's up to him to say he doesn't see them.

25 Mr. Delic, did you answer to this one?

Page 2912

1 A. Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: What did you -- what was your answer? Just to

3 remind me.

4 A. I said that I did not see a single person who could possibly be

5 from the El Mujahid Detachment.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Fine. That was the third photograph.

7 Can we go to the fourth one.

8 A. Your Honour, I can say the same thing I said about the previous

9 image.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: What --

11 A. I believe that this person on the right-hand side is a member of

12 the detachment. Although, I repeat, I can't say what his capacity there

13 was.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: We -- I'm not asking for capacities. I'm not

15 asking you for structure. Thank you very much. Is that the only one?

16 A. Yes, as far as I can see.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Can we see the next picture,

18 please.

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, thank you very much. Can this picture with

21 that mark be admitted into evidence and be given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 425.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 Can we go to the last picture, please.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 2913

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You've -- you've made a cross on two faces

2 here. Can this picture also be admitted into evidence and be given an

3 exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Exhibit number -- [Microphone not

5 activated]

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 426 [Microphone not activated]

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I guess that's the end of the

9 pictures.

10 Just before we leave this point, Madam Vidovic, you raised amongst

11 the points that you raised when you objected that this witness says he

12 knows nothing about the structure. You'll realise I've asked him nothing

13 about the structure of that corps.

14 The last issue I want to raise with you, sir, is this: Can you --

15 you can confirm for me that you are retired from the army in 2000?

16 A. Yes, Your Honour. On the 1st of October, 2000.

17 Q. All right. And?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: All right. And the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina ended

19 in -- in 1995; am I right?

20 A. Yes, Your Honour. With the signing of the Dayton Accords and the

21 order on the cease-fire. The order was issued on the 11th of October,

22 1992, requiring us to cease all hostilities and to engage in the

23 negotiations at Camp David.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 A. About the -- and then in Dayton and later on in Paris too.

Page 2914

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. All I need is the -- the

2 date.

3 After the war, did the army still use packet communication

4 systems?

5 A. As far as I remember, the system remained in use -- in use for

6 quite a while, and I believe it is still in use today. Of course, for

7 urgent matters, for communications that have to be urgently transmitted

8 and such like.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And there were other forms of communication for --

10 that did not involve the packet communication system?

11 A. Yes. Among others, couriers, the normal wire connections - that

12 is to say, telephone and telefax connections - depending on the

13 confidentiality of the document involved, and the needs of the army.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I have no further questions

15 for you.

16 Any questions arising? Mr. Mundis?

17 MR. MUNDIS: No questions from the Prosecution. Thank you,

18 Mr. President.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson?

20 MR. ROBSON: Just a few questions, Your Honour.

21 Further cross-examination by Mr. Robson:

22 Q. General Delic, on Friday you were asked by Judge Lattanzi the

23 following: "If illegal activities were committed by soldiers or officers

24 at the lower level, was the commander of the unit duty-bound to sanction

25 those illegal activities?"

Page 2915

1 And to that question, you agreed that they were. Can you remember

2 giving that response?

3 A. Yes. And I am of the same view today. I believe Her Honour was

4 quite right. The first person involved was supposed to react immediately

5 and was -- and others were supposed to follow suit.

6 Q. You then said that the low-ranking commander should inform his

7 immediate superior, who should in turn propose certain measures.

8 And in this regard, I'd like to show you a document.

9 MR. ROBSON: And, Your Honours, if the witness could please be

10 shown P1493.

11 Q. General, could you just confirm for us that what we see on the

12 screen is a document entitled "Order on enforcement of the rules of the

13 international military law in the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia

14 and Herzegovina"?

15 A. That's precisely so.

16 Q. If we could scroll down to the bottom of the page in the English

17 version and go on to page 2 in the B/C/S version, please.

18 General, could you confirm for us that this order was issued by

19 the President of the Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic, on the 23rd of August,

20 1992?

21 A. Yes. This order was issued by him, by the President, and by the

22 commander of the armed forces, the late Alija Izetbegovic, on behalf of

23 the Presidency, on the 23rd of August, 1992.

24 Q. If we could return back to the first page in the B/C/S version.

25 Are you familiar with this order, General?

Page 2916

1 A. Well, yes. We drafted something similar already in May of 1992

2 which concerned the application of international laws of war in wartime.

3 I didn't receive the document itself, but I received instructions from my

4 superior. I suppose that as corps commander he must have received the

5 order.

6 Q. Now, if we look at Article 1 of the order, General, it's right

7 that this article provides that: "The armed forces of the Republic of

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina shall enforce the rules of the international

9 military law in the armed conflict"?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. And we can see that in Article 1 it also defines what is meant by

12 "international military law"; is that so?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. Now, if we look at Article 2, is it right that this provides that

15 "The commanders of the units and each member of the armed forces

16 individually is responsible for the enforcement of the rules of the

17 international military law"?

18 A. Yes. This means that all members of the armed forces have that

19 duty, not just the commander.

20 Q. And if we go into the next part of Article 2, it provides that:

21 "The competent commander is obliged to start procedure to pronounce legal

22 sanctions against persons who violate the rules of the international

23 military law." Is that so?

24 A. Yes. This was commented upon by Her Honour.

25 Q. Now, would you agree with me that under Article 2, commanders of

Page 2917

1 the units at all levels were obliged to take steps to enforce

2 international military law?

3 A. I agree, absolutely.

4 Q. So that would mean, for example, that if the commander at the very

5 lowest level discovered that one of his subordinates had committed a

6 criminal offence, he would be obliged to take steps to start a procedure

7 against that subordinate.

8 A. Yes, within his competence.

9 MR. ROBSON: Okay. Your Honours, please could this document be

10 admitted into evidence.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] The document is admitted

12 into evidence -- may it please -- I beg your pardon. The document is

13 admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 427.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Robson, this is an interesting point that you

17 have raised in extension of Judge Lattanzi's original question about this.

18 My understanding of the situation in the ABiH was that due to the fact

19 that the original JNA was being split at the time, what the ABiH had left

20 was in many cases soldiers who had received very little training. And so

21 I would like you to explore with the witness if any training then or any

22 information was then offered to the combatants as to what was implied in

23 the international customary military law and the treaties signed by

24 Bosnia.

25 I mean, you get my point. One thing is that you have on paper is

Page 2918

1 that everybody was supposed to know about this. But did -- did they in

2 fact?


4 Q. General, you've heard the Judge's question. We can see that this

5 order provides obligations on the part of the armed forces. From your

6 knowledge of what occurred during the 2nd Corps, were any concrete steps

7 taken to introduce measures so that subordinate units and soldiers became

8 familiar with these international law obligations?

9 A. Yes, Your Honour. On the 29th of May, 1992, from the corps

10 command, I personally wrote a brief instruction to the troops and

11 commanding officers in relation to the application of international laws

12 of war and the definition of "war booty," because there were such persons

13 who thought that a chicken were war booty, among other things.

14 We did it right at the outset. You have to bear in mind that in

15 this army, which was initially the Territorial Defence, there were no

16 military officers who had been schooled and taught about these matters.

17 If we look at the percentages, then there were less than 5 per

18 cent trained officers. You only had the commander and his closest

19 associates in a headquarters who were professional soldiers. For this

20 reason, it was quite difficult.

21 But I can tell you that as concerned the 2nd Corps, the situation

22 improved in time. We also managed, with the assistance of international

23 organizations that were present in the area, to train soldiers and members

24 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as far as we were able to, to fully

25 adhere to the provisions of international laws of war.

Page 2919

1 I can also tell you that in the area of Tuzla municipality, as

2 early as the 16th or the 17th of May, thanks to several lawyers who were

3 attached to the General Staff, we managed to discuss these matters. One

4 of them was Judge Vildana Heljic, who was one of the persons who launched

5 this initiative. And this bore fruit in the first material -- written

6 material that was distributed, circulated among soldiers on the 29th of

7 May, 1992.

8 I can tell you the situation thus far as it concerned my own unit.

9 Q. And before we leave this issue, General, we discussed it in

10 Article 2 of this order that the commanders of the units were responsible

11 for the enforcement of international military law. Can you tell us what

12 is meant by "the commanders of units"?

13 A. Under "commanders of units," it is meant all levels of commanding

14 and commanders, starting with the commander of the battalion. From

15 battalion level to brigade level or autonomous or independent detachments

16 and brigades and divisions, municipal staffs, district staff at that time,

17 then corps, up to the highest level, on behalf of the joint command, the

18 commander of the army of the BiH, and the commander of the General Staff.

19 So up to the top.

20 Q. And it's right to say, isn't it, General, that obligations

21 relating to international military law were also set out in other

22 regulations and legislation as well?

23 A. I don't know whether this was part of all rules and laws. Of

24 course, those -- that's what over the war produced and distributed, this

25 provision must have been in them. For the earlier, in the former SFRJ, it

Page 2920

1 was used as far as it concerned technical matters, the rules of military

2 equipment, weapons, some rules about units and some others. Although, as

3 far as I know, those also contained the provision on the necessity to

4 abide by international laws of war.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you, General. Now, Judge Lattanzi also asked you

6 some questions about the 7th Muslim Brigade. You would agree with me at

7 no stage was the 7th Muslim Brigade a subordinate unit of the 2nd Corps

8 during the war.

9 A. No, never.

10 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that during the war you -- at no time

11 did you receive any information about the structure of the 7th Muslim

12 Brigade?

13 A. No, no. It's only that commander of the 7th Muslim,

14 General Brzina, helped me to establish the 9th Muslim, because I did not

15 know what the Shura was, which was diametrically opposed to the system of

16 control and command that I knew. So he came over to help me establish

17 this unit, and this was in August 1995.

18 Q. And it's right is that the battalions of the 7th Muslim Brigade

19 were located a considerable distance away from where you were based in

20 Tuzla. They were in Zenica, Travnik, and Kakanj. Is that so?

21 A. I don't know where they were, but I presume that most of them were

22 in Zenica.

23 Q. So you don't know where the battalions of the 7th Muslim Brigade

24 were located. Can it -- would you agree with me that --

25 A. No, no, my answer is "no."

Page 2921

1 Q. Would you agree with me that your level of knowledge about that

2 brigade was such that you cannot exclude the possibility that there were

3 members -- that Bosnian Croats or Bosnian Serbs were members of that

4 brigade?

5 A. Well, Honourable Judge warned me against guessing. I said -- I

6 guessed 80, 90 per cent, but my true answer is "no." But taking into

7 consideration how I established this 9th Muslim Brigade, there wasn't

8 supposed to be an atheist as a member of the 9th Brigade who was not a

9 Bosniak. I know that there were no other people other than Bosniaks in

10 that brigade.

11 Q. I'm not asking about the 9th Muslim Brigade. We're -- we're

12 focusing on the 7th Muslim Brigade. As I understand your answer, you have

13 just confirmed you cannot --

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. -- exclude the possibility that the Bosnian Croats or Bosnian

16 Serbs were members.

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. And in the final point, General, Judge Moloto today put to you

19 that the men that we looked at in the photographs were soldiers or

20 officers of the El Mujahid Detachment.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's just -- let's just correct that. I didn't

22 put it to him. I asked him. I didn't put anything to the witness.

23 MR. ROBSON: Okay. Well --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just asked him to identify.

25 MR. ROBSON: I'll rephrase that, Your Honour.

Page 2922

1 Q. General, this morning we discussed -- you discussed with the Trial

2 Chamber photographs that were shown to you last week by the Prosecutor.

3 Please, can you help me with something, because I'm now rather confused

4 about your evidence.

5 As I understood your response last week, you told the Trial

6 Chamber that you could not be sure that those men were members of the El

7 Mujahid Detachment. Is that so?

8 A. Yes. And I maintain that today. I presume, but I wasn't sure.

9 Q. So you don't know whether those men that you spoke about today

10 were members of the El Mujahid Detachment or whether they were members of

11 an international humanitarian organisation or whether they were there in

12 some completely different capacity. Would you agree with me?

13 A. Well, yes, I arrived a bit late at that function. I presumed --

14 and I saw them as they were, and I presumed that they may be them. You

15 are right. If I were not guessing, I would say "no," but this is a matter

16 of my feeling whether they were or they were not Mujahedin.

17 Q. Thank you, General.

18 MR. ROBSON: I have no further questions.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, General. This brings us to the

20 conclusion of your testimony. Thank you very much for taking time off to

21 come and testify. You are now excused. You may stand down. Travel well

22 home. I'm sorry we could not finish with you last week to enable you to

23 spend the weekend at home, but that's how these things happen. Thank you

24 very much.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 2923

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess this would be a convenient time to take the

4 break. We'll take the break and come back at quarter to.

5 Court adjourned.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.11 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, sir. May you please make the

10 declaration.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated. Please do

14 sit down and make yourself comfortable.

15 Yes, Mr. Mundis. Or Mr. Neuner.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Examined by Mr. Neuner:

19 Q. Good morning, witness. What is your name?

20 A. Fadil Hasanagic.

21 Q. When were you born?

22 A. The 25th of May, 1948.

23 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I seek permission to lead the witness

24 through his military career.

25 Q. Beginning in 1969, you went for two years to the military academy

Page 2924

1 in Belgrade and attended courses in the field of engineering; is this

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And in 1971 you continued your education in the same field in

5 Karlovac.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And in 1972, you entered the JNA.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And until 1980, you stayed at the training centre in Karlovac.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And until 1985, you were chief of the engineers in Banja Luka.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. From 1985 until 1991, you were commander of an engineering

14 battalion in Cakovec.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And in 1984 and 1986, you again attended courses at the military

17 academy in Belgrade.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And in 1991, you became the chief of engineers in Varos.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In November 1991, you went to the 2nd military district of the JNA

22 in Sarajevo.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In April 1992, you left the JNA and joined the Regional Staff in

25 Sarajevo.

Page 2925

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In September 1992, you became the commander of this regional

3 staff.

4 A. Of the Regional Staff of Sarajevo.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 In December 1992, you became the commander of the 511th Brigade in

7 Bihac.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In June 1993, you became the chief of staff of the 5th Corps in

10 Bihac.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And in February 1994, you became commander of the OG Bosna.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In March 1995, you became commander of the 35th Division, a

15 position you held until the end of the war.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And after the war, you held four positions; namely, the chief of

18 engineers in the army.

19 A. Yes, chief of the engineers of the army. Yes.

20 Q. The assistant commander for training.

21 A. Yes, assistant to the chief of staff for training.

22 Q. And chief of staff of the 5th Corps, as well as deputy commander

23 of the 5th Corps.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. It was from this last position that you retired in April 2000,

Page 2926

1 holding the rank of brigadier.

2 A. Brigade general, yes.

3 Q. Brigade general. Thank you for this clarification.

4 I want to focus on your time when you were commander of the OG

5 Bosna, starting in February 1994. Where was the headquarters of OG Bosna?

6 A. At Zavidovici.

7 Q. And you just confirmed that in March 1995 you became the commander

8 of the 35th Division. What was the relationship between OG Bosna and this

9 35th Division?

10 A. There was no major distinction. OG was a temporary composition

11 and later on the 35th Division was established as a permanent unit.

12 Q. So where was the headquarters of this 35th Division?

13 A. At the same place, in Zavidovici, the same place where previously

14 it was the headquarters of the OG.

15 Q. And which brigades were in this 35th Division?

16 A. 328 from Zavidovici with five battalions; 327th Brigade, mobilised

17 from Maglaj, also five battalions; and 329th Mountain Brigade, from

18 Kakanj, with three battalions. Later on we established three manoeuvre

19 battalions: The 3rd, the 4th, and the 5th Manoeuvre Battalion. And, of

20 course, staff units at the level of company and platoon.

21 Q. And to whom was this 35th Division subordinated to?

22 A. The 35th Division was subordinated to the command of the 3rd Corps

23 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 Q. We talked a moment ago about the OG Bosna. To which unit was this

25 OG Bosna subordinated to?

Page 2927

1 A. To the 3rd Corps of the army as well.

2 MR. NEUNER: With the assistance of the usher, I want to have some

3 maps distributed. I have copies for all the Judges as well as for the

4 Defence and the witness.

5 Q. What I want you to do, Witness, is to -- to lay out the eastern

6 front line on this map of OG Bosna and at the time when you came to

7 Zavidovici in 1994 to take up your duty as OG Bosna commander.

8 A. It cannot be seen. There are several other features.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness -- interpreters note: Could

10 the witness speak into a microphone, please.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the demarcation line with

12 the 2nd Corps of the army.


14 Q. Can you mark a "1" next to this demarcation line.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Can you mark now the eastern front line of OG Bosna at the time

17 you arrived to OG Bosna.

18 A. [Marks]

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry to do this to you, Mr. Neuner. I had

20 been looking at the map, the hard copy you gave. Can the witness please

21 show us the first question -- the first line that you asked him to show,

22 the east -- the eastern front line of the OG Bosna. Where was it? I

23 can't see it now because the lines look alike here.

24 MR. NEUNER: I think the witness is about or --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said he must write a "1" next to it.

Page 2928

1 MR. NEUNER: Yeah, the "1" next to it was -- on the button there

2 where the border to the 2nd Corps was, I understood the witness to say.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you.

4 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if the Prosecutor

6 could clarify with the witness which was the zone of responsibility so

7 that we know what we are talking about when we refer to "western" and

8 "eastern" side so that we can find our bearings on the map.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

10 MR. NEUNER: I will.

11 Q. Witness, the line you were just drawing, in relation to that line,

12 where was the AOR of the OG Bosna?

13 A. To the west of this line. To the west was Mahnjaca, and then on

14 the right-hand side this line, Podsjelovo, Krcevine, Malovan, Popov Osoje,

15 Radonivlje [phoen]. And then Osturic [phoen], Visic, Zedni Vrh,

16 Vranovine, and then a connection and link up with the 2nd Corps.

17 Q. Could you just continue the line which is crossing the River

18 Krivaja now to connect with, ultimately, number 1 in the lower right-hand

19 side. How was the AOR -- or what was the frontier of the AOR of the OG

20 Bosna when you came? If you could just indicate that.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Thank you. And if you could mark a "2" at the upper part of that

23 line, indicating that this is the line.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Thank you. Could you now mark where Vozuca is.

Page 2929

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Encircle it and mark it with a 3, please.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. My question to you is: At that time when you came in 1994, who --

5 which army had held Vozuca, had control over Vozuca?

6 A. 1st and 2nd and 3rd Brigade and several brigades came from some

7 other parts, from Prijedor, Srbacka Brigade and other brigades and the

8 special units of theirs.

9 Q. And with "theirs," which army are you referring to?

10 A. The enemy army, of course.

11 Q. And which is the enemy army? Could you state the abbreviation of

12 it -- for it.

13 A. The Army of the Republika Srpska, VRS.

14 Q. And when you left Zavidovici at the end of the war, which army had

15 control over Vozuca?

16 A. When I left Zavidovici, Vozuca had been liberated. Our army had

17 control over Vozuca; that is to say, the army of the Republic of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 Q. And when moved the ABiH into Vozuca?

20 A. In September of 1995.

21 Q. What military significance had Vozuca while it was not taken by

22 the ABiH -- not yet taken by the ABiH?

23 A. The Zavidovici-Ribnica road ran along it, connecting the Tuzla and

24 Zenica cantons and Zavidovici and Banovici. The 40 or so kilometres of

25 that road enabled one to cross the territory. Otherwise, one had to take

Page 2930

1 a detour of some 200 or 300 kilometres to reach Tuzla.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was waiting for the

4 witness to finish. Can I ask my learned friend to first lay a foundation

5 for his question. Like, for instance, in this case, whether it had any

6 significance or importance, because the question as it was put now stated

7 what significance it had.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner?

9 MR. NEUNER: I've put the question as it was. I will try in my

10 future questioning to take my colleague's -- my learned friend's

11 suggestions into consideration.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


14 Q. Can you mark with a "4" where that road is you just talked about.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Next to the "X" you just made, can you mark a "4".

17 A. [Marks]

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: For -- for those of us who don't understand,

19 Mr. Neuner, I would imagine that that road is a line? So if you could

20 show which way that road goes and where it leads. Maybe put another -- a

21 "5" at the end of the 40-kilometre stretch.


23 Q. Could you please mark, if it's on the map, where the road was

24 leading to with a "5", the road which was at the time under VRS control, I

25 understood.

Page 2931

1 A. I am tracing it with my pencil. This is where Ribnica is and...

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat the rest of his answer.

4 It was -- we couldn't hear it.


6 Q. Can you repeat the answer. After "Ribnica," what was at Ribnica?

7 A. Ribnica was free territory in the direction of Banovici and Tuzla.

8 Q. By "free territory," you mean which army held it?

9 A. The BH army.

10 Q. And if you could clarify, which part, west or east, of number 5

11 was held by the ABiH?

12 A. Since this was not within my area of responsibility, I can't say.

13 I only know that the territory to the east of Ribnica was under the

14 control of the BH army. That's where the 2nd Corps was.

15 Q. Thank you. We heard from you that once you left the 35th Division

16 that area formally held by the VRS was in ABiH hands. Could you explain

17 what efforts, if any, in 1994 were taken to gain control over the VRS-held

18 area.

19 A. The area of responsibility of the OG Bosna, later to be the area

20 of responsibility of the 35th Division, was quite a difficult one to

21 control because of the lie of the terrain and because of the buildup of

22 the forces there, especially Blizna, Podsjelovo, Krcevine, Malovan, and

23 then to the south-east of the Krivaja River, Zedni Vhr, Vranovinje,

24 Mahovski Vrh and other. The enemy was constantly active out of that area.

25 Not only from the villages I mentioned, but also the towns of Zavidovici

Page 2932

1 and Maglaj were under fire from that area, these towns, that is.

2 Q. And what efforts by the ABiH to gain control in 1994 were done?

3 A. At the time we didn't have enough troops or weapons. We got

4 engaged in actions to move the front lines for -- such as the ones against

5 Paljenik on several occasions in 1994 where there were attempts at

6 liberating that area.

7 Q. Can I show you a document. And PT number is 1845. This is a

8 document which will appear on your screen from the 24th of October, 1994.

9 It's entitled "Decision of attack" by Mr. Mahmuljin and sent to the

10 Operational Group Bosna. And I'm interested in the upper right-hand side

11 of the document where it says "Manevar 94." Can you explain to the Judges

12 what "Manevar 94" means.

13 A. Every action, battle, or operation that was launched had a title,

14 a name of its own. This name was just as any other name of an operation

15 such as Proljece is spring. That's all there is to it; there's nothing

16 special about it.

17 Q. What was the objective of Manevar 94?

18 A. The objective of Manevar 1994 was to take control of Greda

19 Podsjelovo -- or, rather, Podsjelovo ridge, Maljine and Paljenik ridge.

20 Q. Thank you. Can you --

21 THE INTERPRETER: It's Malovan ridge.

22 Can the witness please be asked to speak more slowly when he's

23 mentioning place names.


25 Q. If you mention place names, please speak a little bit slower for

Page 2933

1 the translator.

2 Can you on the map next to you encircle Greda Podsjelovo, please.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. And mark a "6" next to it, please.

5 A. [Marks]

6 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I wish to tender this document we just

7 discussed with the witness into evidence.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 428.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Exhibit 428. That is the map?

12 MR. NEUNER: Not the map --

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, the document. Okay.

14 MR. NEUNER: Yeah, the document itself.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you.


17 Q. I want to show you the next exhibit, dating one day earlier before

18 the document we just saw. PT is 1843. Again, an order by Mahmuljin sent

19 to OG Bosna. And I'm interested in number 1 of that document.

20 Mentioning is made here of teams from the 3rd Corps command who

21 were sent to the -- to you, the commander of the Bosna OG. Were these

22 teams indeed coming?

23 A. Yes, they were within my area of responsibility.

24 Q. What was discussed on that occasion?

25 A. The preparation for the action we just looked at, based on the

Page 2934

1 commander's decision, was discussed.

2 Q. Preparation of Manevar, yes?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And this action was launched or was not launched finally?

5 A. Wasn't.

6 MR. NEUNER: Nevertheless, can I tender this document into

7 evidence, please.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 429.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


13 Q. I want to take you to 1995.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I -- can I just, before you take the witness to

15 1995 -- I may just have missed something here. PT1845 has been admitted

16 into evidence as Exhibit 428.

17 Prior to that, PT1493 was admitted as Exhibit 427. In between

18 those two exhibits, I think a map was shown to the witness and the witness

19 has been making markings on this map. I'm not quite sure what the fate of

20 that map is.

21 MR. NEUNER: We are going on with further operations.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon.

23 MR. NEUNER: And at the end of these operations, I will tender the

24 document -- the map into evidence, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

Page 2935

1 MR. NEUNER: I'm aware of it.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just wanted to -- okay. I'm pleased you are.

3 Thank you so much.


5 Q. I wanted to move to 1995. And you informed us, finally in

6 September Vozuca -- or the ABiH established control over Vozuca. What I

7 want to know from you: How many combat operations were necessary that

8 finally in September 1995 the ABiH moved into Vozuca.

9 A. The Vozuca operation took place in September of 1995. Prior to

10 that, several actions were needed in order to take up tactical --

11 operational tactical positions and to come closer to Vozuca. In short, it

12 involved three actions.

13 Q. Can you start with the first action. What was the name of the

14 first action?

15 A. The first one took place in April, south-east of the Krivaja

16 River, and it was called Sabur.

17 Q. Can you mark on the map next to you where the gravity of this

18 combat operation Sabur was with a "7", please.

19 A. [Marks] Number 5 or number 7?

20 Q. 7.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Moving on to the next operation, which operation was following

23 Sabur?

24 A. After Sabur action, in May of 1995 the Proljece operation took

25 place with the objective of taking up Podsjelovo ridge.

Page 2936

1 Q. Can you mark with an 8 -- or encircle and mark with an "8" where

2 the main line of attack of Proljece was?

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Thank you. Which operation followed then?

5 A. In the month of July, there followed the Proljece II action with

6 the objective of taking up the features of Krcevine, Malovan and

7 Malije Gaj.

8 Q. Can you maybe indicate with an arrow in which direction the attack

9 towards Krcevine and Malovan, which direction this combat operation was

10 taking. And mark a "9" next to these arrows.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. And can you encircle Krcevine, please, and mark a "10" next to it.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you. Which was the next combat operation?

15 A. The next combat operation took place in September of 1995, which

16 was one of the operations in the area with the participation of two corps

17 of the BH army.

18 Q. You told us the 35th Division was part of the 3rd Corps. Could

19 you indicate the main axis of attack of the 3rd Corps 35th Division in

20 this September operation.

21 A. The corps commander did not give the main axis of the attack. It

22 gave axis 1, which was the one running in the direction of the Paljenik.

23 [Marks]

24 Q. Just draw an arrow and encircle "Paljenik." Please mark an "11"

25 next to it.

Page 2937

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. And you said "the main axis of attack." Was there another axis?

3 A. The other forces of the corps probably had other axes to pursue.

4 Q. Okay.

5 MR. NEUNER: Now, Your Honours, I wish to tender this document --

6 this map into evidence.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The map is admitted into

8 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 430.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


12 Q. You just introduced us to Operation Sabur in April 1994. I wish

13 to show you PT number 2000. This is an order, again, from Mahmuljin from

14 the 31st of March, 1995. It is sent to the 35th Division commander -

15 meaning you - and it's entitled -- it just says "Order." And then it

16 says: "Preparations for active combat operations."

17 If you look at number 1, what is Mr. Mahmuljin doing here?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is quite right for

20 the Prosecutor to state the date of the document, who produced the

21 document, to whom it was sent before we see the document, but even before

22 we were able to see the document, the Prosecutor already states that this

23 is the order by Mahmuljin. Perhaps the witness should first be allowed to

24 look at the document, to establish who wrote the document, and to whom,

25 and only then should the question follow of what Mahmuljin's intentions

Page 2938

1 were.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

3 MR. NEUNER: I propose the following course of action: I'm doing

4 this to save a certain amount of time, because it takes some ten seconds

5 until the image appears. I can -- to take on board the suggestion from my

6 learned colleague, I can introduce the document the way I did. And once

7 it is on the screen, I can ask the witness to confirm what I said and then

8 move on to the question. If this is an agreeable course of action.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That -- yes, Madam Vidovic.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this would be quite

11 fine in principle; however, it is not right in this case because we

12 haven't seen who signed the document. We can't say that this is

13 Mahmuljin's order if it is stated in the signature block that it was

14 signed on his behalf. I believe we have to establish this fact first. We

15 can't see the signature block in the English version. Perhaps this is

16 something the Prosecutor should first explore with the witness.

17 MR. NEUNER: I fully understand the suggestion of my learned

18 colleague. And fully understand --

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Actually, when laying the basis for admission, I

20 think the witness must give answers, not you.

21 MR. NEUNER: Okay. Correct.

22 Q. Witness, do you recognise the signature here?

23 A. Somebody signed for the commander, on his behalf. I don't

24 recognise the signature.

25 MR. NEUNER: I need to correct myself. I before stated that it

Page 2939

1 was Mr. Mahmuljin. Somebody signed for the 3rd Corps commander. And I

2 will endeavour to not make such comments in the future.

3 Q. Turning back to my question, I wanted to ask with regard to number

4 1, what are you ordered -- or what is ordered here by somebody signing for

5 the 3rd Corps commander?

6 A. The person who signed on behalf of the corps commander, I don't

7 know whether he has that competence, to re-subordinate a unit to the

8 command of the 35th Division. So this is the order re-subordinating units

9 for the purposes of the impending combat actions.

10 Q. And was this order carried out?

11 A. Yes. There were other orders too, and on the basis of these

12 orders the re-subordination to the 35th Division was indeed carried out

13 for the purposes of these combat actions.

14 MR. NEUNER: I wish to tender this document into evidence.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 Just before you tender it, I think I -- I heard you say in one of

17 your introductory comments about this document that it was addressed to

18 the witness. I'm trying to look to see where it shows that it was

19 addressed to him.

20 MR. NEUNER: If you look at the second page of the English

21 translation, you see in the first hyphen -- this is the "sent to" column.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And did the witness see this?

23 MR. NEUNER: In his version, it is on the first page --


25 MR. NEUNER: -- which is displayed the whole time.

Page 2940

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much.

2 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

3 exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 431.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 MR. NEUNER: The next exhibit to be shown is exhibit 2014, PT2014.

7 It is an order to attack. And I'm asking the witness to confirm this once

8 it is displayed.

9 Q. Can you see "Order to attack" here on the document?

10 A. "Order to attack."

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I suggest this, Mr. Neuner: Just so that you

12 don't get objections, get the witness to tell you whether he recognises

13 this document, if -- and tell you what it is, who it comes from, who it's

14 addressed to, and what it is.

15 MR. NEUNER: Okay.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let him testify.


18 Q. If you look at the upper right-hand corner, it says "Sabur 95"

19 there.

20 A. That's the name of the action concerned.

21 Q. And do you recognise this document?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In the English version, it says "illegible" there, but if we

24 enlarge exactly the B/C/S, it -- as was just done, we see -- can you read

25 this out, what you can read there?

Page 2941

1 A. "Defence of the republic. Military secret. Strictly

2 confidential, Sabur 95. To be submitted by courier."

3 Q. If we look at the last page in the B/C/S only, whose signature is

4 this?

5 A. Mine.

6 Q. And could you tell me, you were signing this order for attack?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you -- were you authorised to do this?

9 A. Yes. That's my order.

10 Q. And who authorised you?

11 A. The corps commander had previously approved this action, and it

12 was on that basis that I wrote the order. The order was signed by the

13 corps commander, as was the appendix to my order, which was a map.

14 Q. We will come to this in a moment. Who is the corps commander?

15 From which corps?

16 A. The commander of the 3rd Corps, Sakib Mahmuljin.

17 MR. NEUNER: I wish to tender this document into evidence.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

19 please be given an exhibit number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 432.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


23 Q. I wish to show you another document, PT2009. And in the English

24 translation, it says: "List of documents."

25 A. Yes. This is a list of documents.

Page 2942

1 Q. To which activity is this relating to?

2 A. It is related to the Sabur action.

3 Q. And there under number 4 unit is mentioned. Why are signatures

4 provided there?

5 A. Every unit had to receive the order, an excerpt of the map, and

6 other documents necessary for the implementation of the action.

7 MR. NEUNER: Can I please tender this document into evidence.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 433.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


13 Q. We were already talking about the month of April when Sabur was

14 taking place. I want to show you document PT2016 and explain to the

15 Judges what this is about.

16 First of all -- it just disappeared. Could you say whose

17 signature this is, if we scroll down in the B/C/S?

18 A. It's my signature.

19 Q. And if you look at number 5 of the document from 7 of April, 1995,

20 I believe in the English it is the second page.

21 A. I don't have the image.

22 Q. If you could --

23 A. Now it's appeared.

24 Q. In the English version, it's number -- paragraph -- page 2.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 2, paragraph ...?

Page 2943

1 MR. NEUNER: 5.

2 A. "Prepare the deployment area for the detachment in the base area

3 of the Dvanaesti, the Twelfth Kilometre."

4 Q. Where is the Twelfth Kilometre?

5 A. The Twelfth Kilometre is a feature, an area. 12 kilometres away

6 from Zavidovici. It's a fork in the road with some edifices and

7 fortifications. Several roads intersect there. There was water there as

8 well. And previously, units from Kakanj had been deployed there within my

9 composition, and this is why I instructed the corps commander that they be

10 deployed at the Twelfth Kilometre facility.

11 Q. You say there was water there. What water was there?

12 A. Drinking water, of course. One of the elements that is necessary

13 for a base camp is to have running water, electricity, roads, and if

14 there's no grid electricity, then a generator, that there is -- there are

15 facilities for training, et cetera.

16 Q. You say in page 41, line 12 that they should be deployed at the

17 Twelfth Kilometre. Whom are you referring to by "they"?

18 A. The El Mujahedin Detachment. This is what I meant to be deployed

19 at the Twelfth Kilometre.

20 MR. NEUNER: I wish to tender this document into evidence.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

22 please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 434.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


Page 2944

1 Q. You talked earlier about Operation Proljece, that it occurred in

2 May 1995. And in relation to this, I want to show you document number

3 2101.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's document 2001, right? Not 201.

5 MR. NEUNER: 2101.


7 MR. NEUNER: 2101.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


10 Q. If you look at the upper right-hand corner of the document, you

11 find here "Proljece - 95." Do you see this?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you recognise the document?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who signed the document? If we can go to the last page, please.

16 In the B/C/S only.

17 A. Yes. That's my signature.

18 Q. And were you authorised to sign this operation or this -- this

19 order?

20 A. The order, yes.

21 Q. Who approved that you signed such an order?

22 A. The corps commander approved. I sign an order, sent it to the

23 corps commander for his approval.

24 Q. And which corps commander are you referring to?

25 A. The commander of the 3rd Corps.

Page 2945

1 Q. And when did you get his approval? Before or after signing? This

2 document?

3 A. The process to produce this document is a lengthy one. There are

4 many steps and actions to be performed at division command and at levels

5 of commands of subordinated units, brigades, et cetera. And when this

6 process is finished, I propose to the corps commander on the basis of our

7 estimate that we should do this or that. The corps commander may or may

8 not agree. If he agreed, then I draft a document such as this one, this

9 order. I send it to the corps commander for approval. Of course, this is

10 accompanied by a map. And only when the commander has approved can I

11 embark on carrying out that idea.

12 MR. NEUNER: I wish to tender this document into evidence.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

14 please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 435.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 MR. NEUNER: I wish to show you document 2075. The previous

18 document was from the 24th of May. This document is from the 15th of May.

19 Nine days earlier.

20 Q. If you could please confirm the date.

21 MR. NEUNER: Sorry, I see 19th of May. I think I have here the

22 wrong document.

23 A. It says here "19th of May."

24 Q. Yeah. Sorry, the English translation misguided me. It says "15th

25 of May."

Page 2946

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what is the correct date? 19th of May?

2 MR. NEUNER: I see that the translation and the B/C/S don't match.

3 I believe I withdraw that document and come back to it at a later stage.

4 I see the B/C/S is from the 19th --

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: They're two different documents.

6 MR. NEUNER: Yeah, it has also different BROJ numbers. I withdraw

7 the document at this point in time. I apologise.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Neuner, while we're looking for the next

10 document, could you please just clarify one thing: I wasn't sure about

11 the -- the nature of the last document we saw, Exhibit 435.

12 MR. NEUNER: Mm-hm.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: What we had on the screen, was that the -- the

14 final order after the corps commander had approved it or was it still

15 before?

16 MR. NEUNER: I will ask.

17 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, you heard the remark by the Judge. The document we

18 saw a moment ago was from the 24th of May, 1995. And you signed it. At

19 the time you signed it, did you have the approval of Mr. Mahmuljin or did

20 this follow the approval?

21 A. The order is drafted beforehand and is sent to the command --

22 corps commander's approval. And then the order is the final document that

23 is sent to the 3rd Corps command for approval.

24 Q. But when you signed this document, as we just saw, at this point

25 in time of your signature, did you have the approval in your pocket or

Page 2947

1 were you waiting for it?

2 A. I waited for the -- the approval, and the document is approved

3 when the commander writes and signs in the top left corner "I approve,"

4 and then signs his name.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: All right. Now, I can't remember, did the corps

6 commander's signature follow?

7 MR. NEUNER: We have it here in front on the screen still. I

8 don't see the commander's signature, but maybe you have been the author of

9 the document and you remember. Did you at a later point in time get the

10 3rd Corps commander's written approval for this action?

11 A. Yes, I did receive approval for this action. I could not proceed

12 without that approval, because some of the corps units participated in

13 that action.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 I want to go to PT2105. And we just need the B/C/S.

16 Could you explain to the Judges once it is displayed what this is.

17 A. This constitutes a decision to attack. Spring 1995, operation

18 1995 action. This is an integral part of the order. It is an appendix to

19 the order.

20 Q. And if we just look at the right side where the yellow and orange

21 markings are made, we have the letters "EL-M" next to it. Could you

22 indicate what abbreviation you're using here. "EL-M," what does this

23 stand for?

24 A. That's the El Mujahid Detachment.

25 Q. And below there, it says: "4 mnb." What is this standing for?

Page 2948

1 A. This is the 4th Manoeuvre Battalion. And then at the rear, you

2 say -- you see "the 2nd Manoeuvre Battalion."

3 MR. NEUNER: I wish to tender this document into evidence.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 436.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


9 Q. I'm going to move to PT2138 now. If you could just explain. It's

10 displayed on your screen. What are you doing here?

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we going to see the English version?


13 Q. So is this your signature? Is my first question.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what are you doing here?

16 A. After we captured the Podsjelovo ridge which the El Mujahid

17 Detachment and the other units shown on the map were there, and given that

18 Zavidovici had been and 15, 16 other villages had been fired upon from

19 that ridge of Podsjelovo and given that the operation was successful, I

20 issued to all the units this certificate of merit because there was no

21 other way that I could commend them for the success, because the town of

22 Zavidovici and the surrounding villages were no longer fired at from that

23 feature. And this document, this certificate of merit, is a document

24 whereby I thanked them for what they did.

25 Q. I wish --

Page 2949

1 A. Of course, there was a rule book which regulated this matter. And

2 I did not write those rules. I received them from my superior command.

3 MR. NEUNER: I wish to tender this document into evidence.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 437.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


9 Q. I want to move to a completely different topic, military training.

10 I want to ask you: What is the purpose of military training?

11 A. The purpose of military training is to train troops and officers

12 to accomplish the tasks that they were given.

13 Q. And was training or military training conducted in the AOR of the

14 35th Division in 1995?

15 A. Yes. This is one of the elements of combat readiness. Maybe the

16 first one, if I remember correctly.

17 Q. And where was such training conducted?

18 A. Training was performed by battalion commanders in their areas of

19 deployment, commanders of brigades in their areas of deployment, or by

20 grouping units for certain combat actions at a single place, and this is

21 the way that we did it.

22 Q. And can you name the main places of training in your AOR?

23 A. I said it was carried out at battalion and brigade level. At the

24 division level, we organised training on the Ninth Kilometre, in the area

25 of the village of Cardak because there was a school building with enough

Page 2950

1 classrooms. There was a gym as well. Logistical support could be

2 provided. There were five, six other buildings that were not destroyed.

3 There were playing fields. There was an area where you could train

4 personnel. So under our estimates, that facility was appropriate to group

5 certain forces there before certain either attack or defence actions.

6 Q. Mm-hm. And when did the training at the Ninth Kilometre start?

7 A. I think that training at the Ninth Kilometre started for the

8 Spring II action, and we used that model for training for the Operation

9 September 95.

10 Q. And which unit participated in the training or military training

11 for Spring or Proljece 95 II or Proljece II action?

12 A. It was organised by brigades. Given that this was a smaller scale

13 action, each brigade or those units that were earmarked for attack would

14 train with them. And this was why we grouped such units.

15 The other part of general training was conducted at the areas of

16 deployment of brigades.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just ask: Is Spring II action the same thing

18 as Proljece 95 II action?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's Proljece II or Spring II.

20 That is -- that was in July.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


23 Q. Can you just clarify for Your Honour, when was the action

24 Proljece? In which month of 1995?

25 A. Action Spring was in May. Proljece II was in July.

Page 2951

1 Q. So the training, I understood you, was for Proljece II?

2 A. Yes, for July.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]


5 Q. Can I show you document 2457.

6 You see the B/C/S. Do you recognise this document?

7 THE WITNESS: [French on English channel]

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now I'm hearing French. I'm hearing French

9 translation.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear me, Your Honour?

11 THE INTERPRETER: The French booth was on the wrong channel.

12 Sorry.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Only now when you say

14 it again.


16 Q. Do you recognise this document, was my question?

17 A. It says on this document: "Regular combat report." I am about to

18 see whether I signed it.

19 Q. Can we move to the last page of the B/C/S, please.

20 A. I think that this is not my signature, but I'm not sure.

21 Q. It's enlarged now.

22 Okay. Maybe I can ask you about the content and you may remember.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we also see the end of the English.

24 [Microphone not activated] Okay. Thank you very much.


Page 2952

1 Q. Okay. I want to ask you to have a look at section 2, entitled

2 "Training plan." In B/C/S, it's page 1. In English, page 3 of this

3 document.

4 Okay. Maybe if I -- I think in B/C/S it's -- no. No, it's

5 under -- this is 2473?

6 Is this document 2473, if I may ask?

7 A. I can't see --

8 MR. NEUNER: I'm sorry, if I --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

10 Just a second, Mr. Neuner.

11 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as far as I

13 understand, this is document 2457, so we are at cross-purposes. What we

14 see on the screen is PT2457.

15 MR. NEUNER: We are at 2457. I apologise. I have confused. I

16 want to look at -- have the witness look at the second page of the B/C/S

17 in the third hyphen, starting with [B/C/S spoken] "komandir." And in

18 English, it is page 3, the second-last hyphen from the bottom, starting

19 with "the team of the 35th Division command."

20 Q. Do you find this portion? Mr. Hasanagic?

21 A. I can see it now, yes.

22 Q. Can you explain what the team of the 35th Division command is

23 doing here.

24 A. The team from the 35th Division of command visited the Cardak

25 training centre, as per its purview, and inspected -- and inspected the

Page 2953

1 training under the leadership of El Mujahedin Detachment and 4th and 3rd

2 Manoeuvre Battalion. This is a regular operation, regular activity.

3 MR. NEUNER: Can I tender this document into evidence, please.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 438.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 MR. NEUNER: This is a convenient time for the break, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

10 MR. NEUNER: And my learned -- Mr. Mundis has a short

11 announcement.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 If I could, I didn't want to interrupt the flow earlier. I would

15 suggest, again, as was the case last week with Operation Uragan, which we

16 indicated means "hurricane," Proljece means "spring" in the Bosnian

17 language, and I would respectfully ask if the interpreters could, in --

18 when we refer to that operation, too, again use the original "Proljece,"

19 since that's what the documents refer to, and it might avoid confusion

20 later when we have "Operation Spring" or "Operation Proljece" in the

21 transcript.

22 So I would ask when we're referring to the military operations if

23 we could retain their original Bosnian names since that's what will appear

24 in the documents, it might avoid confusion many months from now when we're

25 reviewing the transcripts.

Page 2954

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It helps a great deal, but it adds to my confusion.

2 A little earlier when I asked whether the Spring II and the Proljece 95

3 action was the same thing. And I was told no, Spring was in May and

4 Proljece was in July. Now --

5 MR. MUNDIS: We can --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The actions were in May and July.

7 MR. MUNDIS: We can go back to that issue with the witness when we

8 return, Your Honour. That -- there were references to Proljece and

9 Proljece II, and we'll -- we'll clear that up with the witness after

10 the -- after the break.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 We'll take the break and come back at half past 12.00. Court

13 adjourned.

14 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Neuner.


18 Q. Witness, I want you to clarify. In what month was Operation

19 Proljece conducted? In what month of 1995?

20 A. Proljece was conducted in the month of May 1995.

21 Q. And the objective of Proljece was, again?

22 A. The objective of Proljece operation was to take up Podsjelovo

23 ridge.

24 Q. And in what month was Operation Proljece II conducted in 1995?

25 A. Proljece II was in the month of July 1995.

Page 2955

1 Q. And what was its objective?

2 A. The objective of the operation was to capture the features of

3 Krcevine, Gaj, and Malovan.

4 Q. I want to go back to document PT2075, a document which I tried to

5 show earlier which was not available.

6 We see in the B/C/S it's from the 15th of May, 1995. I hope that

7 the English translation is corresponding now. We had this earlier.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. It says on the upper right-hand side in the addressee field:

10 "Komandir 35th Division." Have you ever seen this document?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And do you know whose handwriting this is?

13 A. Mine.

14 Q. And what are you clarifying here with your handwriting?

15 A. 02, that's the chief of staff. We had numbers assigned to each

16 and every one of us. And I'm giving him an assignment and telling him

17 what he has to do.

18 Q. And what has the chief of staff to do?

19 A. He has to implement these tasks that were mentioned herein.

20 Q. Who's giving these tasks?

21 A. In order for the subordinate units to take -- to carry out their

22 tasks, they have to have in their plans, among other things, these various

23 requirements.

24 Q. If you look at the document 15th of May, 1995, to which combat

25 operations does this relate to, this document?

Page 2956

1 A. Proljece.

2 Q. Not Proljece II, yeah? To clarify.

3 A. No, Proljece, the 15th of May.

4 MR. NEUNER: I wish to tender this document into evidence,

5 Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do that, I would like to see the "02"

7 that is supposed to be the chief of staff.

8 MR. NEUNER: Can -- can the size of the B/C/S please be reduced.

9 Thank you.

10 Is it maybe possible for the witness to indicate where "02" is.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Yes. And I want to

12 be --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. I would also like the rest of the

15 handwritten stuff to be explained. I don't think -- unless all that --

16 that's written on it is supposed to be "02".

17 MR. NEUNER: I will endeavour to do so.

18 Q. Could you indicate where you marked "02" on this document.

19 A. I -- I didn't. I marked it as "02".

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where is the "02"?


22 Q. Can you take the pen and encircle where the "02" is, please.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. And mark a "1" next to it, please.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 2957

1 Q. Thank you.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what is that -- what does the rest of the

3 writing mean?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm giving the assignment to the

5 chiefs -- chief of staff, for him to carry it out as far as he can. And

6 the tasks or assignments are contained therein.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The chief of staff of what?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The chief of staff of the division.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did I understand you to say that this document was

10 authored by you, or -- or did I miss that? Who is -- whose signature is

11 this at the bottom?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't author the document. I

13 received the document as part of the preparations for Proljece. This is

14 the signature of the commander of the Mujahid detachment.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what is the name of the commander there?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Abu Mali.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And -- okay. And then you wrote by hand

18 further instructions to other people. Do I understand that? Or to him

19 again?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To other people.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You answered to the question who was the

22 chief of staff -- okay. Thanks.

23 MR. NEUNER: .

24 Q. Can you state the name of the chief of staff, please.

25 A. Nedzad Sabic.

Page 2958

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The document is admitted into

2 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 439.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. -- Mr. Neuner, either now or some point later

6 before you complete your examination-in-chief, I would like you to go a

7 little more into detail with your witness about the background of this

8 document. Obviously, this is the first time we've seen anything in

9 writing from any of the members of the El Mujahid Detachment, so it

10 attracts some interest to me. Thanks.


12 Q. Witness, you see here a stamp next to the signature of Abu Maali.

13 Can you explain to the Judges what this stamp is about.

14 A. I don't know what you want me to say. This is a stamp as any

15 other stamp of a unit. It's just as the next one. And this is the first

16 time that I see it now here in this document.

17 Q. And I see a "1" below what looks to me like a weapon -- or the --

18 what is the symbol inside of this stamp?

19 A. This seems to look like the coat of arms of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 Q. And can you explain the use in the "ABiH" of numbers within

21 stamps. What does usually the number 1 stand for?

22 A. Stamps are produced in large quantities, and they each have their

23 number. I don't see that it would have any other special meaning.

24 Q. What does the number "1" mean, as opposed to number "2", for

25 example?

Page 2959

1 A. To my mind, it wouldn't really make any difference if the stamp

2 had number "1" or number "2".

3 Q. Okay. Why did Abu Maali on the 15th of May send this document?

4 A. We said that this was part of preparations for Proljece operation,

5 that they took part in this operation. Of all the units participating in

6 this operation, I asked that they send me their proposals. And this unit,

7 just as all the others, submitted their proposal.

8 Q. And what are you doing with such proposals you get from Abu Maali

9 or from other subordinated units?

10 A. The division commander would make -- or rather, the division

11 command would make an assessment, and as a result of that, they would

12 either agree or disagree with proposals. The command would approve their

13 plans or approve along with providing some small suggestions. Parts of

14 these proposals would then become orders from the division. And then once

15 the division commander had his order approved, combat activities would

16 ensue.

17 Q. And, again, you would seek approval from which level?

18 A. From the level of the corps command.

19 Q. The 3rd Corps?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. This is obviously a plan of attack or proposal in writing. Were

22 there also some meetings at the planning phase?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And where would they take place?

25 A. Either at the place of deployment of the unit or it could be a

Page 2960

1 subordinate unit or a division.

2 Q. I want to move -- at these meetings, who attended?

3 A. Depending on the importance of the matters to be discussed at the

4 meetings, you could have commanders, chiefs of staff, operations officers,

5 assistants, and so on and so forth.

6 Q. And would this apply to the 35th Division or also to the units

7 concerned?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The units also would submit proposals?

10 A. The 35th Division, to the -- it applies to the 35th Division.

11 Q. Did you have any meeting with members of the El Mujahedin

12 Detachment?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where?

15 A. At the command post of the division. Shortly before combat, there

16 were meetings in their place of deployment.

17 Q. I want to move back to the topic before the break. We talked

18 about training. I have produced a map from the court binder in the

19 meantime and want to distribute this briefly.

20 In essence, we talked about the Cardak training centre or, you

21 said at some point in time, the Ninth Kilometre. Could you indicate where

22 the Ninth Kilometre or Cardak training centre you were referring to is on

23 this map by encircling the location.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. What have you just encircled?

Page 2961

1 A. The Cardak area.

2 Q. Could you mark a "1" next to Cardak area, please.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. And the Ninth Kilometre, do you know where the Ninth Kilometre is?

5 A. Somewhere where the school building is.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. [Marks] It's roughly here, but it's not marked on the map.

8 Q. Actually, you might have crossed the school building with the

9 marking you just made. Maybe if I can --

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]


12 Q. No problem. We talked earlier about a document from the beginning

13 of April where the -- where you talk about the Dvanaesti, the Twelfth

14 Kilometre. You ordered that a base camp would be established. Could you

15 indicate where the base camp you established in April is on this map.

16 A. I only ordered that a base camp be set up.

17 Q. Was it set up?

18 A. In what period of time?

19 Q. I believe the order was from April 1995. 7th of April, 1995.

20 Following that time period - it's former PT2016.

21 A. The base was not set up at the Twelfth Kilometre.

22 Q. Where was it set up then?

23 A. It was arbitrarily set up at the Thirteenth Kilometre.

24 Q. Could you mark where the Thirteenth Kilometre location is, where

25 the camp indeed was set up.

Page 2962

1 A. It is not plotted into the map. We have the Twelfth Kilometre,

2 and further down by a kilometre it should be roughly -- well, it's

3 difficult to show it on the map.

4 Q. Can you approximate where you believe the location was, the

5 Thirteenth Kilometre you were referring to.

6 A. I can't. I don't know.

7 Q. Okay.

8 MR. NEUNER: Just for the record, I was referring to a document

9 from the 7th of April, 1995, Exhibit 434. If I could please ask that this

10 map here is admitted into evidence.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The -- the map is admitted into evidence. May it

12 please be given an exhibit number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 440.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


16 Q. Finishing the training chapter, I want to show you a very brief

17 video, PT number 0684. No audio needs to be played. The excerpt is

18 starting at 7 minutes, 9 seconds and is runnings to 7 minutes, 47.

19 [Videotape played]

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if possible could we

22 hear the sound? Could we see -- hear the words uttered, if they are in a

23 language we understand, of course?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic. I think I appreciate

25 that too.

Page 2963

1 MR. NEUNER: Can the video portion which is about 30 seconds long

2 please be shown again with audio this time.

3 And, Mr. Hasanagic, I would ask you, if you know, to tell us whom

4 you recognise and where you believe that location is.

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]

6 MR. NEUNER: We are playing the video again.

7 Q. And if you could tell us.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is me there, the first one.

10 Next to me is Ajman, the interpreter. This is me.

11 I don't know this man.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: We -- we had no interpretation. I don't know --

13 Madam Vidovic, did you understand what was being said?

14 MR. NEUNER: No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, we had no interpretation, so we don't --

16 MR. NEUNER: This is -- this is actually the reason -- we had

17 problems to find the exact beginning of the text -- why I didn't play the

18 audio in the fist place.

19 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, could you explain where you have been in this

20 moment.

21 A. I'm not sure. I believe that was at the Ninth Kilometre, at

22 training.

23 Q. And you were referring to a man next to you. Could you just state

24 the name of this man for the record, please.

25 A. That was the interpreter, Ajman. He was the sole person I

Page 2964

1 communicated with, because he was the only one who spoke our language.

2 Q. He was of which unit?

3 A. The El Mujahid Detachment.

4 Q. Did you recognise anybody else?

5 A. There was I. Next to me, Ajman. And next to him, the commander

6 of the 329th Brigade.

7 Q. What was his name?

8 A. Fehim Skulj [phoen].

9 MR. NEUNER: Can I please tender this excerpt into evidence.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll do that just now.

11 Mr. Hasanagic, you said you had an interpreter sitting next to

12 you. Did he interpret to you what that other gentleman was saying?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The interpreter interpreted for

14 the rest of the meeting. He spoke English.


16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Neuner, I apologise. I wish you would take

17 the witness back to the -- to the video and explain a little more what --

18 what sort of meeting was this and -- and were there -- the other

19 members -- I didn't see the other participants in the meeting, but -- but

20 I understand that they were from other units or -- or -- you know, what

21 was going on at the meeting. Could you --

22 MR. NEUNER: Could we maybe play the video again.

23 Q. And while it is being played could you explain what the Judges are

24 interested in, or Judge Harhoff particularly. What is the purpose of this

25 particular gathering?

Page 2965

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I came to the barracks where

3 training was conducted. The El Mujahid Detachment took part in the

4 training. We sat down at a table and we made a brief analysis of what had

5 been done there.

6 In addition to me, there was the interpreter and the commander of

7 the 329th, because his unit was attending the training at the time. And I

8 believe that's it.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You -- you said you didn't know the man with the

10 white cap and spectacles who was speaking. Do you know which unit he

11 belonged to?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't at the time.

13 Presumably, he was from the detachment.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say you didn't at the time, then you

15 invite the question that says: Did you come to know later?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.

18 Are you done, Judge?


20 JUDGE MOLOTO: That clip is admitted into evidence. May it please

21 be given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 441.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 MR. NEUNER: [Microphone not activated]

25 Q. You said they were training at the time. For which of the many

Page 2966

1 operations we were talking about earlier, for which operation was this

2 training conducted, if you remember today?

3 A. The training was conducted for Operation Proljece II and for the

4 operation in September.

5 Q. Thank you for this clarification. Who was training? Who was in

6 charge of the training?

7 A. The brigade commanders, the commanders of manoeuvre battalions and

8 the commander of the El Mujahid unit were charged with conducting

9 training.

10 Q. And which manoeuvre battalions are you referring to?

11 A. 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 I want to move, because you just mentioned the training was, among

14 others, done for Proljece II, I want to move to this Operation Proljece II

15 now and want to show you Exhibit 396.

16 Have you ever seen this document?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who signed it?

19 A. The commander of the 3rd Corps signed it.

20 Q. And what is happening here on the 2nd of June, 1995?

21 A. The commander decided to re-subordinate the El Mujahedin

22 Detachment again in the area of responsibility of the 35th Division for

23 combat operation. He signed this order and by this order he regulated

24 what the El Mujahid Detachment is supposed to do and accomplish within the

25 area of responsibility of the 35th Division.

Page 2967

1 It specifies here five tasks that they were supposed in

2 cooperation and -- with the command of the 35th Division to accomplish.

3 Q. I see here on the second page of the English translation it talks

4 about reconnaissance in three different places. Could you indicate in

5 which part of the frontline these three places are lying.

6 A. These are the features that the enemy used to shell Zavidovici and

7 outlying villages, and these are the features of Blizna, Vis, and

8 Paljenik.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry to

11 interrupt, but if I may ask for the translation be corrected and the words

12 in the Bosnian version "El Mujahedin" is referred to "El Mujahid" in this

13 document, so it creates confusion throughout this trial.

14 You can see for yourself: "The engagement of the El Mujahid

15 Detachment," and it says in the English version "El Mujahedin." So we

16 should use the correct term, the original term in translations from

17 Bosnian into English.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, you want the translation to be corrected in

19 which document, ma'am? Just tell us the document you want corrected.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document that we

21 have on the screen --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. What does it talk about?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It refers -- so in the title

24 "Engagement of the El Mujahedin Detachment." Then under 3: "El

25 Mujahedin" in item 3. And in the English version, instead of "El

Page 2968

1 Mujahedin," what is used is "El Mujahid." What I'd like to ask,

2 respectfully, is for the translation to faithfully reflect what is stated

3 in the Bosnian original.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

5 MR. NEUNER: We have taken a note of this and endeavour to have

6 the translation service make a correction.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


9 Q. Coming back to what we talked about --

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Maybe --

11 MR. NEUNER: Sorry.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Maybe at one point you would wish to find out with

13 the witness if, in his view, there were any difference between "Mujahid"

14 and "Mujahedin," because I saw that in Abu Maali's combat plan,

15 Abu Maali -- that we saw just a while ago -- Abu Maali himself seemed to

16 call himself -- or his detachment "the El Mujahedin Detachment." So there

17 is confusion about this point addressed by Ms. Vidovic.


19 Q. Witness, being in the war theatre in 1995, could you shed some

20 light on what my learned colleague from the Defence just raised, light on

21 whether is there a distinction between "El Mujahid" and "El Mujahedin"

22 Detachment or are we talking about one and the same group or unit?

23 A. The full title of this detachment was the El Mujahedin Detachment.

24 "Mujahid" is something else, but I could not explain in detail what it

25 was.

Page 2969

1 Q. Would you know what an El Mujahid is, as opposed to an El

2 Mujahedin Detachment? And if you don't know, just say so.

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. I would move on to --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: But let me -- let me just find out from the

6 witness: At that time during the war, what was your understanding when

7 these words were used like that? Did you -- in your mind, did you find

8 them to be talking about one and the same unit or did they talk -- were

9 they talking of different things?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know when this detachment was

11 referred to that its name was El Mujahedin. Sometimes in conversation

12 they would refer to a person within that as a Mujahid. I could not

13 explain what that word "Mujahid" meant.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


16 Q. We have seen here in the document authored by Mr. Mahmuljin that

17 he's talking about reconnaissance on the object of Paljenik. And in this

18 regard, I want to show you document PT2151, a document which is eight days

19 later, from the 10th of June, 1995.

20 Do you recognise the document, is my first question.

21 A. I do not see the signature.

22 Q. Could we scroll down. Yeah.

23 A. Yes. This is my signature.

24 Q. Thank you. In number 2, there is mentioning about reconnoitering,

25 and there is also mentioning of Paljenik again.

Page 2970

1 A. I transcribed the tasks that were handed down to the El Mujahedin

2 Detachment by the corps commander, and here I order that in the area of my

3 forces that were deployed there, that this detachment goes reconnoitering

4 so that my forces would know that they should secure safe passage through

5 their area and any other assistance, if they should need it. And -- but

6 their tasks were handed down to me by the corps commander.

7 Q. And for which operation are you ordering here the reconnoitering?

8 A. That refers to the operation Proljece Dva, Proljece II.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just go back to this question that

10 Madam Vidovic raised a few minutes ago. Witness, you are saying in answer

11 to your question now at page 58, starting at line 19: "I transcribed the

12 tasks that were handed down to the El Mujahedin Detachment."

13 In the document, on the B/C/S, it just -- I seem to see "El

14 Mujahedin," without the word "detachment." If you look at that first line

15 under that heading, "Naredjujem."

16 Now, my question to you is: This detachment, did you refer to it

17 as the "El Mujahedin Detachment"? According to your knowledge of it, is

18 that how you knew it as?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the El Mujahedin. Yes.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You knew it as the -- did you -- what I'm trying to

21 find out is: Did you also know it as a detachment, an El Mujahedin

22 Detachment? Because you have used the -- at least, the English says here,

23 when they translate your answer now, they've added the word "detachment."

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is such a formation. The

25 detachment of El Mujahedin.

Page 2971

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let me come up with

4 the same objection to the translation. I'm not opposing this document,

5 but if it says in the Bosnian version "El Mujahedin," let it be stated so

6 in the English version. So this is the second document in a row that uses

7 terminology which engenders confusion.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, madam, the document -- the document in

9 English says "El Mujahid Detachment." But that's why I wanted to check

10 with the witness whether he did actually say "El Mujahedin Detachment."

11 Because that's what I have. When he speaks in Bosnian, I don't

12 understand -- I don't hear that in the first place, and that's why I'm

13 checking with him.

14 MR. NEUNER: Maybe -- maybe, Your Honour, I can assist in this

15 situation by asking a short question to the witness, because in the B/C/S

16 it says: "Od." And then "El Mujahedin."

17 Q. Could you explain what this "Od." stands for.

18 A. That's abbreviation from "detachment." Sometimes we use the full

19 word and sometimes the abbreviation.

20 Q. So could you for the record spell the word in Bosnian, the full

21 word here abbreviated by "Od."

22 A. "Od." means detachment, O-d-r-e-d.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. NEUNER: This being clarified, I hope to get Your Honours'

25 permission to admit this document into evidence.

Page 2972

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

2 please be given an exhibit number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 442.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 MR. NEUNER: And I wish to move to the next document, which is

6 PT2258.

7 Q. My question to you is: Do you recognise the signature?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Whose signature is it?

10 A. Mine.

11 Q. I want to take you to the first line of this document which you're

12 sending to the 3rd Corps command. You're stating here: "Pursuant to the

13 order of the ARBiH General Staff and the order of the 3rd Corps command,"

14 and so on and so forth.

15 Could you explain which two orders you have in mind when you were

16 signing this document.

17 A. I can't remember the order from the General Staff; neither the

18 order from the corps command, but presumably they were connected. And my

19 order ensued from those two orders, but I cannot remember those documents,

20 but surely on the basis of those two documents I prepared this document,

21 which is a report to the corps command. If I had those documents in

22 possession now, this -- it would jog my memory most probably.

23 Q. They are unfortunately not on my exhibit list for you, so I cannot

24 show them to you. But I want to draw your attention to the last words of

25 number 1. You're talking here about an approval of the 3rd Corps command.

Page 2973

1 A. Yes, as I said, my order was approved by the corps command and, on

2 the basis of that order, approved by the corps command, I embarked on

3 accomplishing Proljece II operation.

4 MR. NEUNER: May I ask that this document be admitted into

5 evidence.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I -- in this document

7 and in other documents, I don't see the difference between the translation

8 of "Mujahedin" and "Mujahid," but I would like all documents to use the

9 terms as stated in Bosnian.

10 In Bosnian, it's always stated "El Mujahedin," and then they are

11 translated into "El Mujahid," and this causes confusion. Could you make

12 sure that in all documents in your possession, could you check how this

13 term was translated into English.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, you say in this document you don't

15 see the difference. I see the difference. It is still there if you look

16 at paragraph 1, first line in the -- in the B/C/S, it's "El Mujahedin."

17 If you look at paragraph 1, third line in the English, it's "El Mujahid

18 Detachment."

19 Now, having said that, let me say your -- your objection has been

20 noted. Obviously these documents have now been translated and they're all

21 going to come with this difference. We will remember you are -- what you

22 noted. Okay?

23 So what I'm trying to suggest to you: There's no need to -- to

24 stand up each time you see it. We will -- you have made the point and

25 that point is recorded. Okay.

Page 2974

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

3 Yes, Mr. Neuner.

4 MR. NEUNER: I think Your Honour Harhoff has a question.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. Because I would wish, before we leave this

6 document - and I understood that you were just about to leave it and move

7 on to the next document - that you go a bit into detail in interpreting

8 the document.

9 I hadn't seen the last part of the document, but in the part we

10 have on the page, in number 1, if we go back to page 1 - thank you - it

11 says that the witness is reporting back to the corps command that

12 activities were carried out in coordinated action with the El Mujahid

13 Detachment in keeping with the decision of the commander of the 35th

14 Division.

15 What do these words mean, "in coordinated action," "in keeping

16 with the decision"?


18 Q. Witness, you have heard the question. Could you please answer.

19 A. Coordination -- "coordinated action" means that the decision was

20 in coordinated action with the detachment in different occasions, and this

21 is my decision previously approved by the corps command for the conduct of

22 the Proljece II operation.

23 Q. If I may ask an additional question to this point. Before, we had

24 seen an order from the 2nd of June of 1995 re-subordinating the El

25 Mujahedin Detachment to you, and now you're using the word "in coordinated

Page 2975

1 action with." At this point in time, on the 18th of July, when you are

2 writing this order, is the El Mujahedin Detachment still subordinated to

3 you?

4 A. Re-subordinated. Still re-subordinated to me, to us, and in

5 coordinating action with my actions, that detachment conducted the

6 Proljece II operation.

7 MR. NEUNER: Can this document please be admitted into evidence.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 443.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


13 Q. I want to move to PT2264, a document from the same day.

14 Do you recognise this document?

15 A. Yes. This is the order for Proljece II operation.

16 Q. It says on the upper right-hand side: "Proljece 95 - II." And on

17 the same page -- I withdraw my question.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you explain: On the same page, it also says "Proljece 95."

20 But could you explain? This is a continuation?

21 A. This is an activity conducted in July as a continuation of

22 Proljece action against the features Krcevine, Gaj, and Malovan after the

23 Podsjelovo feature had been captured from which they shelled Zavidovici

24 and --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the last part of the

Page 2976

1 last sentence.


3 Q. Could you repeat the last part of your sentence. A feature had

4 been captured from which they shelled Zavidovici, you said, and ...?

5 A. The objective was to capture the elevations after Spring Operation

6 after the Podsjelovo elevation had been captured. In Proljece II

7 Operation, the objective was to capture the elevations of Malovan,

8 Krcevine, and Gaj from which the enemy shelled Zavidovici as well.

9 Q. Okay. Could you look at the last page.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak into the

11 microphone.


13 Q. Could you look at the last page, please. Whose signature is this?

14 A. Mine.

15 Q. When you were giving this signature, I'm interested whether you

16 had an approval from somebody.

17 A. I wrote my order and signed it on the basis of a proposal coming

18 from the subordinated units, and such an order signed by me was forwarded

19 to the corps commander. The corps commander approved the order with the

20 map attached, sent it back to the division command, and then that was the

21 point when I could start conducting combat activities.

22 Q. And did you get the approval from Mr. Mahmuljin before or after

23 you signed this document?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, the witness says: "I wrote my order

25 and signed it on the basis of a proposal coming from the subordinated

Page 2977

1 units, and such an order signed by me was forwarded to the corps

2 commander."

3 MR. NEUNER: Then I'm confusing the witness. I withdraw my

4 question.

5 Can the document please be admitted into evidence.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

7 please be given an exhibit number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 444.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


11 Q. I want to move to document 19 -- PT1921. Unfortunately, this

12 document is cut into two; meaning, in two pages. Having just a look at

13 the first page, could we go to the second page now.

14 If we enlarge this. I'm interested in whose signature is this.

15 A. It's my signature.

16 Q. Thank you. Could we go back to the first page again, please. It

17 says here on the upper right-hand corner: "Proljece - 95-1." We heard

18 Proljece --

19 A. I think this is an error. It should have been "Proljece II."

20 It's just a writing error.

21 MR. NEUNER: With this explanation, could I ask that the document

22 be admitted into evidence.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

24 please be given an exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 445.

Page 2978

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


3 Q. Moving on to the next document, 2 -- PT2259. Could we -- have you

4 seen this document?

5 A. I think I did not.

6 Q. But could you explain what this type of document served for at the

7 time.

8 A. This is how we sent all documents to the units for the conduct of

9 combat activities, and a similar document would go to the corps commander

10 for the order form and for the schematic of the action on the map.

11 Q. So for sending out this document which is a list and the documents

12 referred to here, at this point in time had you an approval of the 3rd

13 Corps commander for sending such documents out?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. NEUNER: I wish to tender this document into evidence.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

17 please be given an exhibit number.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 446.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

20 MR. NEUNER: The next document is PT2236.

21 Q. Whose signature is this?

22 A. Mine.

23 Q. Could you explain -- I see from the translation it deals --

24 A. I can't see what the date is. 28th of July. This is the --

25 the -- this is the interim combat report which speaks of the situation on

Page 2979

1 the ground at the time.

2 Q. If you look at number 2 of this document, we see a delivery of

3 materiel from the 3rd Corps arrives, and it is dispatched to Livade.

4 Could you explain what this means. Why is materiel dispatched to Livade?

5 A. Elements of the El Mujahedin Detachment was deployed at Livade.

6 The corps command sent down documents, and it was my duty to forward them

7 on.

8 Q. I got the translation --

9 A. Materiel, the materiel.

10 Q. Thank you. It's clarified now.

11 MR. NEUNER: Can I ask that the document be tender into evidence,

12 please.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

14 please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 447.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 Mr. Neuner.


19 Q. I want to stay in the field of logistics and go to PT2247. We

20 just talked about Livade. And my first question -- if we can scroll down

21 the B/C/S. I'm looking for the signature.

22 Whose signature is this?

23 A. Mine.

24 Q. And if you look at number 2 of your document, there is, again,

25 Livade mentioned. Could you explain what was -- this is on the 16th of

Page 2980

1 July, the document. What was happening in Livade then?

2 A. A forward command post of the 35th Division was supposed to have

3 been at Livade, because this is the only village in that area, along that

4 axis, from where the Proljece II action could be easily commanded over.

5 Q. Okay. And if you look at number 3, it talks about you, the

6 commander of the 35th Division should be at the"KM." Could you explain

7 what "KM" means and where that KM is in number 3.

8 A. The command post for these activities was at grid point 777. This

9 is higher ground, an elevation from which an attack was supposed to be

10 launched. I was there; whereas, the -- the main command post was at

11 Zavidovici.

12 Q. Okay. So we have a main command post, we have a command post at

13 777, and we have a forward command post at Livade.

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. In number 1, we see a KM in Malovan.

16 A. Yes. This was along the axis of combat action and assignment of

17 the El Mujahedin Detachment.

18 Q. I would hand out a map to you, with the usher's assistance, and

19 would ask you to show where 777 is, encircle it, mark a "1".

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Next to it, a "1", please.

22 A. [Marks]

23 [Prosecution counsel confer]


25 Q. Do you find Livade?

Page 2981

1 A. You didn't tell me to look for it.

2 Q. I apologise.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. You have encircled it. And please mark a "2" next to it.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. And then Malovan, please encircle it and mark a "3" next to it.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. And you stated -- we are talking about Proljece II. You stated

9 earlier that one objective was Krcevine. Could you encircle "Krcevine" on

10 this map.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And mark a "4" next to it.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Could you describe, when the attack occurred, where was -- from

15 where to where was the main line or axis of attack?

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Could you -- yeah.

18 MR. NEUNER: I wish to tender this document into evidence.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just so that we are not confused later, could we

20 also, on the other two lines, show the arrow, the direction of the arrow.

21 You drew three lines there, but you -- you made an arrow on one.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are the two boundaries of the

23 mission.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I beg your pardon. Thank you so much.

25 Okay.

Page 2982

1 The -- the map --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted into evidence. May it please

4 be given an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 448.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

7 MR. NEUNER: And I'm asking also that the document PT2247 is

8 admitted into evidence.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] PT2247 is admitted into

10 evidence. May it also be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 449.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Thank you very much.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the judge, please.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I'm sorry.

15 MR. NEUNER: I want to go to PT2271 now.

16 If we can scroll down the B/C/S -- I think this is actually the

17 old document, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

18 Q. Do you recognise the signature?

19 A. Yes. It's mine.

20 Q. And this is from the 20th of July at 9.00 in the evening, and it

21 says: "Klek KM" in the header. Could you explain where Klek KM is.

22 A. This is the other name for 777, triple 7. This is the entire area

23 of Klek, and the grid point is 777. Some refer to it as "Klek KM" and

24 others as "777 KM" but it's one and the same thing.

25 Q. So at 9.00 on the 20th of July you're in Klek signing this

Page 2983

1 document, or 777.

2 A. Yes. This is shortly before the start of combat activities which

3 ensued the following morning, and these were the assets, the materiel that

4 I received from the corps command. Some of it was intended for the El

5 Mujahid Detachment and some for the 328th Brigade.

6 Q. And it mentions here a person Ajman in the village of Livade.

7 Who is Ajman?

8 A. Yes, that's the interpreter from the El Mujahedin Detachment. The

9 only way I and my associates could keep in touch with that unit was

10 through him.

11 MR. NEUNER: Can I tender this document into evidence, please.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Yes, you can,

13 Mr. Neuner. This document is admitted into evidence. May it please be

14 given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 450.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 MR. NEUNER: I would try to get one or two documents -- I'm aware

18 of the time -- in before the break. PT2285 is the next one.

19 Q. Who signed this document?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. And could you explain the materiel, technical equipment. What is

22 the purpose of delivering it?

23 A. This is Operation Proljece II we referred to a moment ago. This

24 is the supplying of units with assets and materiel. It was sent down to

25 me from the corps commander and it was my duty to forward it on to the

Page 2984

1 forward command post at Livade.

2 MR. NEUNER: I wish to tender this document into evidence, Your

3 Honours.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 451.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 MR. NEUNER: I'm trying -- I have two more documents to finish

9 this before the break. It's 2337, PT2337.

10 Q. Who signed?

11 A. I did.

12 Q. And I ask you to look at number 2, where we -- where it mentions a

13 shipment of materiel and supplies. Could you explain?

14 A. Yes. The date is -- I can't make out what the date is.

15 Q. Can you see better now?

16 A. Yes. Thank you. The 28th of July.

17 The Operation Proljece II was still ongoing at the time.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Mr. Neuner, it looks like now we are

19 going to cause you to be -- not to be able to file the next document.

20 MR. NEUNER: Yes.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The B/C/S says "28th of July." The English says

22 "28th of February."

23 MR. NEUNER: Yes. We will --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is -- are these one and the same document?

25 MR. NEUNER: Yes, it is one in the same document. I see it is the

Page 2985

1 same BROJ number. The translator actually made a question mark next to

2 the "February." I think he was not sure. The witness just said it was

3 the 27th of July.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. 28th.

5 MR. NEUNER: 28th of July. I apologise.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You may proceed.

7 MR. NEUNER: Can the document please be admitted into evidence.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so admitted. May it please be given an

9 exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 452.


12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, can this

13 be double-checked, please, but I do think that this document was already

14 admitted today as 447. Perhaps the Prosecutor should double-check that.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Mr. Prosecutor, you will double-check that,

16 please.

17 MR. NEUNER: The last document is 2256.

18 Q. Have you seen this document which is type signed only?

19 A. Yes, I have seen the document.

20 Q. Could you explain briefly why distinguishing armbands should be

21 worn by the participants of the Spring 95 battle, as it says in the first

22 line under "Order."

23 A. Precisely, in order to distinguish between the units participating

24 in Proljece II. This was the usual practice with all the actions we

25 carried out for units to have distinctive armbands, and this is something

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1 that the adjacent units were informed of too, in order to be able to

2 recognise other units. This was normal procedure carried out in combat.

3 We also had -- these were distinctive signs. Whoever was in the

4 area of -- in the combat area, the participating units would know who

5 they're up against or who they've encountered.

6 MR. NEUNER: This being said, I wish to tender it into evidence.

7 I have no further questions for today.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. And may it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 453.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

12 And did I here you well? You said "for today"?

13 MR. NEUNER: Yes.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 We will -- court will be adjourned until tomorrow at 9.00 in the

16 same courtroom. Okay.

17 Thank you very much, sir. Be back at 9.00 tomorrow.

18 Court adjourned.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 25th day of

21 September, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.