1 Friday, 5 October 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, everybody in the court.
7 Mr. Registrar, can you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor
10 versus Rasim Delic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Could we have appearances for today, starting with the
14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Good morning, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around
16 the courtroom.
17 Daryl Mundis for the Prosecution, assisted by Alma Imamovic, our
18 case manager.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 And for the Defence.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
22 morning to my learned friends from the OTP, everyone in and around the
24 Vasvija Vidovic, Nicholas Robson, on behalf of General Rasim
25 Delic. Lejla Gluhic is our case manager.
1 Thank you.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 Mr. Trivicevic, yesterday you made a declaration to tell the
4 truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth. I just want to
5 warn you that you are still bound by that declaration to tell the truth.
7 WITNESS: VELIBOR TRIVICEVIC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 Mr. Robson, if I'm not mistaken, you had finished your
12 MR. ROBSON: That's right, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 Any re-examination, Mr. Mundis?
15 MR. MUNDIS: Just briefly, Your Honours.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Mundis:
17 Q. Mr. Trivicevic, good morning.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. Yesterday, in response to a question that I asked you at page 23
20 and 24, you told us about the one time you were interrogated at Livade,
21 and in response to a question from my colleague Mr. Robson for the
22 Defence, at pages 90 and 91 you told us about being interrogated at KP Dom
24 Other than these two instances, on how many occasions, if any,
25 were you interrogated during the time period that you were detained from
1 21 July 1995 until 7 January 1996?
2 A. There was another round of interrogation, and that's when we were
3 being held by the Mujahedin. If I remember correctly, that was on the 4th
4 of August, 1995, when they took us out one by one and took us up to the
5 first floor, blindfolded. We were interrogated blindfolded, therefore.
6 They beat us with plastic pipes, the sort of pipe used for water
7 pipes. That was the last thing I wanted to say.
8 And if I may just say something about the interrogation in
9 Zenica. We started speaking about that towards the end of yesterday's
10 session. That interrogation was conducted under threat and duress. When I
11 came there to provide my statement, the investigator Edo Sabic or whatever
12 his name was told me to watch my words. Should he not be satisfied with
13 my statement, he said he could easily arrange for me to be sent right back
14 where I'd come from.
15 Likewise, when the Red Cross listed us, which was on the 31st of
16 December, a guard walked into the room and said that the Red Cross
17 officials would be on their way to take our names down, but under no
18 conditions should we ever mention anything about the existence of the El
19 Mujahedin Detachment; one thing we ought to know is that it was by no
20 means self-implicit that everyone would be released from captivity. He
21 said should anyone asked who we had been captured by, we should say that
22 it was some sort of an assault group from the BH Army, rather.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. Trivicevic.
24 The Prosecution has no further questions.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
2 Questioned by the Court:
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] The numbers of the Mujahedin
4 Detachment, in the first place where you were detained, in the camp that
5 you described to us, I'd like to know whether those members were all
6 foreigners or whether also local members of the Mujahedin, local Muslims
7 who spoke your language.
8 A. The El Mujahedin unit also comprised local Muslims, people who
9 spoke our language and were members of the El Mudjahedin Detachment.
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And Mr. Habib, who showed a
11 degree of humanity towards you, was he a foreign Mujahedin member who
12 didn't speak your language?
13 A. He spoke our language very poorly, but we were able to establish
14 some sort of communication. He told us he was 17 and that he came from
15 South Yemen.
16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And then there's another thing as
18 You said that there were people who came to transfer you. I
19 understood, and actually I'd like your confirmation that I understood
20 correctly, that these were Bosnians.
21 A. Yes, those were Bosnians. They had come twice before already. The
22 third time they came, it was because of the Mujahedin, that they
23 transferred us to the KP Dom in Zenica.
24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So they managed to get into the
25 camp without any difficulty. What were their relations with the foreign
1 Mujahedin? Can you tell us about that?
2 A. I really don't know how they got into the camp. I was locked up
3 in a room that had all the windows boarded up. The relations with the
4 Mujahedin were at a very high level, were very good. They had asked to go
5 in and look at the Chetnik prisoners, and the Mujahedin would simply let
6 them in, allow them to access the room.
7 Having received approval from the Mujahedin, they got some
8 spades. They would remove the last part of the spade and keep the stick,
9 which they would use to hit us. They would tread on us with their boots
10 and lash out at us in all sorts of ways.
11 However, whenever the Mujahedin guard mentioned the word "emr,"
12 which we didn't know, I thought it was some sort of order or something
13 like that, but as soon as he uttered this word, they would automatically
14 stop beating us and leave the room.
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
17 Mr. Trivicevic, I wanted to explore the registration a bit with
19 You said you were registered finally on 31st December by the ICRC
20 in Zenica, I suppose. Is that correct? Were you ever registered before
21 that time? What I wish to know is whether at any point you were asked to
22 give your name and your rank to anyone after your imprisonment.
23 A. This happened every time we were interrogated. Our names were
24 taken down, our statements likewise, all our personal details, the details
25 of our units and so on and so forth, the first time at Livade and the
1 second time when we were taken up to that first floor in that house in
2 which we were being held, and the third time a list was drawn up two or
3 three days after our arrival at the KP Dom in Zenica. The fourth time
4 around, International Red Cross people came and they took our names down.
5 That's as far as I remember.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know if the statements you gave during the
7 interrogations were recorded, or written down, or noted somehow?
8 A. The statement at Livade was written down. I did actually see
9 people take it down, take down what we were saying. As for the one taken
10 at the camp, on the upper floor of that house in which we were being held,
11 I don't know. I had a blindfold on, I couldn't see anything. As for the
12 statement at the KP Dom in Zenica, there's a statement that I wrote in my
13 own hand. I told you about the circumstances under which this happened.
14 Every time I wrote down a sentence, I had to share this sentence with the
15 investigator first. If he didn't like it, he would say, "No, don't write
16 that, you can't write that. Write this or write that."
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know if your statements taken in Livade was
18 ever passed on to the ABiH? Or in other words, sir, do you know what
19 happened to your statement?
20 A. I really have no idea what became of any of the statements that I
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
23 I have another question relating to your transfer from Kamenica to
24 Zenica, and I'm curious to know if you know how this was arranged. What
25 sort of cooperation would there have been between the El Mujahid
1 Detachment and the ABiH authorities in Zenica to allow for this transfer?
2 Do you know that?
3 A. No. All I know is about the circumstances, how we were taken
4 away, how we were transported to Zenica, and how we eventually got there.
5 I have no idea what happened at the higher levels of command.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you have any information about the level of
7 cooperation and coordination between the leadership in Kamenica, the
8 Mujahid leadership, and the military authorities in Zenica?
9 A. I really know nothing about the level of their cooperation. I did
10 see people from the army several times at the Mujahedin camp and at
11 Livade. I don't know what prompted their visits and what sort of
12 cooperation this was exactly. I wasn't able to learn at the time, nor did
13 I ever get any opportunity to learn about this later on.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much, sir.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Trivicevic, you mentioned yesterday that
16 somebody, and I think it was a young man, who cut your ears. Am I right?
17 A. Yes, you're right.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did he cut them off or did he only scar them?
19 A. It is quite obvious that both my ears are still where they're
20 supposed to be, but he made half circles on my ears with a small
21 jackknife, a pocket knife. He sliced up both my ears, but not cut them
22 off entirely, as is obvious.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you mind removing the headphones for a moment?
24 A. Yes, I might, but it's very difficult to actually spot this the
25 scars from this sort of distance. Those were small cuts.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then that's fine. Okay, thank you very much.
2 Can we have Exhibit 552 on the screen, please.
3 Mr. Trivicevic, I just want you to have a good look at this
4 document on the screen. I think I heard you yesterday say that you wrote
5 it yourself. I just want you to double-check and confirm that, indeed,
6 you did. And the reason I do so is because it is dated the 26th of
7 August, 1995, but then it says "Official Note," and I don't know whether
8 you would be giving an official note or it will be an official who would
9 give the official note. And then it says: "Made on the 25th ..." This
10 seems to be a record of something that was done the previous day.
11 Do you confirm that this is your own document?
12 A. All I know about this document is the general things that are
13 stated in it. I know about the circumstances. I had a pen and paper in
14 front of me. I wrote down the statement myself. I don't know whether it
15 was copied later on or what it was used for. I really don't know how the
16 statement was used at any of the later stages of its life. I was inside a
17 cell. I really didn't know what was going on at the command post or
18 anything like that.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Did you sign the statement that you wrote
21 A. I signed the statement that I wrote down myself alone. I don't
22 remember about this one.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the statement that you signed, was it typed or
24 was it written by pen?
25 A. I hand-wrote the statement.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were you ever shown the statement after it had been
2 typed, or do you -- well, we see this one is typed. Were you ever shown a
3 typed statement?
4 A. I never saw that statement again, nor did I ever go to the Zenica
5 KP Dom Command building.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 Can we just have a look at the end of the statement, particularly
8 the B/C/S, and see whether it's signed.
9 I see a signature there. Is that yours?
10 A. This is not my signature.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 I have no further questions for you. Thank you so much, sir.
13 Any questions arising, Mr. Mundis?
14 MR. MUNDIS: No questions from the Prosecution. Thank you.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Robson.
16 MR. ROBSON: No questions, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 This brings us to the end of your testimony, sir. Thank you so
19 much for taking time off to come and testify. You are now excused. You
20 may stand down.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: And may I add, sir -- excuse me. May I add our
22 sympathy and compassion for the pain and hardship that you went through
23 and your courage to come here and tell about it. Thank you very much.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to thank everyone who has had
25 the goodwill to listen to my statement, to hear out what I had to say.
1 Thank you.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks. You may stand down, sir.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess, Mr. Mundis, that brings us to the end of
5 the day for the business for the day.
6 MR. MUNDIS: It does indeed, Your Honours, and I will indicate for
7 the record that the schedule, as previously circulated, remains unchanged
8 for next week.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 In that event, then, we adjourn to Monday, the 8th of October, at
11 9.00, Courtroom II.
12 Court adjourned.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 9.25 a.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th of October,
15 2007, at 9.00 a.m.