1 Monday, 8 October 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in court today.

7 Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

9 This is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 Could we have the appearances for today, starting with the

12 Prosecution.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Good morning, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around

15 the courtroom.

16 For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Aditya Menon, assisted by

17 our case manager, Alma Imamovic.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 And for the Defence.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

21 morning to my learned friends from the OTP, everyone in and around the

22 courtroom.

23 Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson for General Delic. Lana

24 Deljkic is our case manager. Thank you.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

1 May the witness please make the declaration. Will you please

2 stand up, sir. Good morning, sir.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

5 WITNESS: IZUDIN HAJDERHODZIC

6 [The witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may now be seated.

8 Mr. Mundis.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. Menon will be leading this witness, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Menon.

11 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Examination by Mr. Menon:

13 Q. Mr. Hajderhodzic, could you please state your full name for the

14 record?

15 A. My name is Izudin Hajderhodzic.

16 Q. Can you please state your date of birth?

17 A. Twenty-third of May, 1947, and the place is Tuzla.

18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Hajderhodzic, can you please identify the

19 positions that you held in the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the time

20 periods in which you held those positions?

21 A. The BH Army officially came into existence in 1993, when the

22 brigades were set up, when the army was officially set up. Before that,

23 there used to be the TO, which existed between April and 1992 [as

24 interpreted].

25 From April 1992 to 1997, I was an operative officer at the town

1 command. After that, I was an operative officer with the 318th Mountain

2 Brigade. After that, I was assistant commander for Intelligence in the

3 318th Mountain Brigade.

4 After that, I was a desk officer for Intelligence in the Bosnian

5 Operations Group, which later became the 55th Division -- 35th Division.

6 I kept my position in the 35th Division, and several months after it was

7 set up, I became assistant commander for Intelligence of the 35th

8 Division, and I remained in that position until the end of the war.

9 Q. Sir, it says, in your answer, it says: "From April 1992 to 1997,

10 I was an operative officer at the town command." Is that correct?

11 A. Between April 1992 and the start of 1993, which means throughout

12 1992, at the time the BH Army was not yet in existence because the units

13 had not yet been set up.

14 Q. And then you refer to your being an operative officer with the

15 318th Brigade and the assistant commander for Intelligence in the 318th

16 Mountain Brigade, a desk officer for Intelligence in the Bosnian

17 Operations Group, and later the assistant commander for Intelligence of

18 the 35th Division. Do you recall the time periods in which you occupied

19 each of these positions?

20 A. I don't have a very good head for dates. I can't remember every

21 single appointment, but I do remember the events well. When the 320th

22 Brigade was set up in Zavidovici, there was a great shuffle, and the

23 Bosnia OG was there, and the 320th Brigade was set up, and it was at that

24 time that I switched to the OG. The OG, however, soon evolved into a

25 division, and this all happened over a time period of mere months.

1 I can't remember the exact date. I really have difficulty with

2 that.

3 Q. Okay, sir. But can you tell me what position -- of the positions

4 that you've referred to, which position did you occupy in 1995?

5 A. 1995, I was assistant commander for Intelligence of the 35th

6 Division.

7 Q. Thank you very much, sir. And I'd like to focus on your position

8 as the assistant commander for Intelligence in the 35th Division. Can you

9 tell us what the focus of the 35th Division's intelligence department was,

10 what the focus of its work was?

11 A. The focus of the work of the assistant commander for Intelligence,

12 not just in the 35th Division, was to gather intelligence on the enemy.

13 Assistant commanders for Intelligence were meant to gather intelligence on

14 the enemy facing us, each in our own areas of responsibility.

15 Q. And by what means would the intelligence department acquire

16 information on the enemy?

17 A. Information was acquired in a peculiar way, given the nature of

18 our situation. We organised ourselves in such a manner that we had

19 intelligence bodies up to battalion level. We had those in divisions, in

20 brigades and in battalions. Those were men who were, in a way,

21 subordinated to the intelligence body of the 35th Division.

22 How was information acquired? There were different ways. We used

23 whatever we could. We carried out reconnaissance. We used surveillance.

24 We watched TV stations. We listened to radio stations. We tried to

25 intercept enemy communications via counter-electronic equipment. And if

1 any prisoners were taken, we tried to get that type of information, too.

2 Q. Thank you very much, sir. Can you describe how the intelligence

3 department of the 35th Division was organised, sir?

4 A. There were three men working there, me and two clerical officers

5 who were in charge of this, and then there was the POW -- PEB department

6 which normally numbered between 10 and 20 men. That was as far as the

7 division was concerned. Obviously, we also had units and assistant

8 commanders for Intelligence in lower-level units at battalion commands,

9 brigade commands, who would submit information to us regularly.

10 Q. And, sir, you referred to a PEB department. Can you tell us what

11 the function of that department was?

12 A. It was supposed to listen to everything that was being emitted,

13 everything that was on air, as it were, all the information that was being

14 exchanged by the enemy, in a bit, to learn as much as we could.

15 Q. And to whom did the leader of this particular department report,

16 the PEB department?

17 A. The PEB commander was subordinated to the assistant commander for

18 Intelligence of the 35th Division, which means me.

19 Q. Thank you very much, sir. Now, as the assistant commander for

20 Intelligence in the 35th Division, from whom did you receive your orders?

21 A. The intelligence organ had two chains of commanders, a horizontal

22 one and a vertical one. Technical issues had to do with the corps, and

23 horizontally speaking, the commander was the commander of the 35th

24 Division. My commander was the commander of the 35th Division. I could

25 put it like that, perhaps.

1 Q. And you referred to the corps. Did you have a superior in the

2 corps?

3 A. Yes. The assistant commander for Intelligence of the corps was my

4 direct superior, in purely professional and technical terms.

5 Q. And can you explain, would there be a difference in the subject

6 matter over which -- over which the corps would have authority over you,

7 vis a vis the 35th Division commander?

8 A. I hope I understand your question correctly. My commander was the

9 commander of the 35th Division. Any tasks that I carried out, any

10 information that I obtained, I would write down and submit directly to the

11 corps, always to the commander of the 35th Division.

12 The commander of the 35th Division never, and that was precisely

13 the way it was supposed to be, tried to alter any of the my reports or

14 influence me in any way in the production of these reports, but he did

15 look at each and every one of the reports that I produced. Any orders

16 from the corps, sometimes issued by the assistant commander, instructions

17 and so on and so forth, would always go through the commander, and the

18 commander always knew exactly what sort of orders I was receiving. This

19 was necessary for him to supervise my work, because he was responsible for

20 me.

21 Q. And in your answer, you state that "any orders from the corps

22 issued by the assistant commander, instructions and so on and so forth,

23 would always go through the commander." When you say "the commander," to

24 whom are you referring?

25 A. I mean the commander of the 35th Division.

1 Q. And when the commander of the 35th Division would issue orders to

2 you, would those orders go through the corps, sir?

3 A. No, those didn't go through the corps. There was a direct line.

4 At any rate, it was somehow always my responsibility to inform about

5 whatever orders I may have received. Of course, this only applies to

6 situations where any orders that I received were contrary to the nature of

7 my job and assignments.

8 Q. And when you say --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry.

10 MR. MENON: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Go ahead.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm trying to follow your intercourse with the

12 witness, and I'm getting lost.

13 First, at page 6, lines 16 to 17, he says:

14 "I would write down and submit directly to the corps, always to

15 the commander of the 35th Division."

16 That sounds to be self-contradictory. Is it directly to the corps

17 or to the 35th Division?

18 MR. MENON: I was actually going to clarify the reporting

19 structure, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I've been waiting for you to do so. That's

21 why I didn't intervene immediately.

22 MR. MENON: Okay.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: And in any case, some of the explanations that you

24 have been getting after that confuse me even further.

25 MR. MENON: Okay. I'll try and clarify the reporting structure,

1 and hopefully the other matters will become a little clearer, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Hajderhodzic, you've touched upon how you reported to your

3 superiors. Can you describe -- can you describe further how you would

4 submit a report to your superiors?

5 A. I'll be glad to provide a more comprehensive explanation, and I'm

6 about to tell you why.

7 The 35th Division would send out three parallel reports, an

8 operative report, an intelligence report and a security report. All of

9 these three reports would be sent to the corps. The operative report was

10 drafted based on all these reports, and this was the commander's report.

11 He was meant to have all information from the intelligence organ, from the

12 security organ, and he would produce his report based on those sources.

13 Therefore, before the commander does his job, I first submit a report to

14 the intelligence body, or rather I have to finish it and then I have to

15 submit it --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, we have to interrupt you. When you keep

17 saying "commander," I'm not sure whether you're talking about the

18 commander of the 35th Division or the commander of the corps, so can you

19 please explain at each time which commander you're talking about?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I say "the commander," I always

21 mean the commander of the 35th Division, because that is the highest level

22 that I will be talking about. The next command higher up is not a command

23 that I can comment on or that I am particularly knowledgeable about.

24 MR. MENON:

25 Q. Sir, can you continue with your answer?

1 A. I had to submit my report by -- I'm not sure exactly what time,

2 but half an hour before the operative report. The operative report would

3 include part of my own reports. The operatives would include whatever

4 they saw fit, whatever they deemed necessary. My report, being what it

5 was, based on what I had previously received and the way I signed it off,

6 would then be submitted directly to the corps. No one from the Command of

7 the 35th Division never tried to alter or, indeed, altered any of my

8 reports.

9 Q. And, sir, to whom in the corps would your report be directed?

10 A. My report was addressed to the intelligence organ of the 35th --

11 the 33rd Corps.

12 Q. Sir, you referred to the 33rd Corps. Is that what you meant to

13 say?

14 A. No, no. I'm sorry. 3rd Corps. I may be slightly confused, so

15 sometimes I misspeak. The 3rd Corps.

16 Q. And, sir, the report that you sent to the 3rd Corps, would that be

17 different -- the intelligence department of the 3rd Corps, would be

18 different from the report that you sent to the commander of the 35th

19 Division?

20 A. No, it was exactly the same. It was submitted for inspection to

21 the commander of the 35th Division. The original, on the other hand, was

22 submitted directly to the corps.

23 Q. And how frequently would you send such reports, sir?

24 A. As a rule, these reports were produced on a daily basis. These

25 were daily reports, therefore. They would normally be dispatched in the

1 evening hours, but sometimes there were interim reports that were

2 dispatched at any time that the situation called for.

3 Q. And beyond written reports, were there any other means by which

4 you reported to the 35th Division commander and the assistant commander

5 for Intelligence in the 3rd Corps?

6 A. The meetings at the 3rd Corps were not exactly regular, but they

7 would be held sometimes in the intelligence offices of the intelligence

8 organ. We would meet once every two months or so and discuss matters.

9 This was more in order to get to know each other better and to receive

10 further instructions. Those weren't frequent meetings, and I was not

11 directly in touch with the assistant commander for Intelligence of the 3rd

12 Corps. We only ever communicated via reports and by telephone. There was

13 a period in time -- actually, throughout 1995 we always spoke on the

14 phone. As for communication, as for contacts with the commander of the

15 35th Division or the Command of the 35th Division, in peace-time

16 conditions, conditionally speaking, and by this I mean when there were no

17 combat operations in progress, we would have regular meetings every

18 morning, brief meetings, everyone said whatever it was that they had to

19 say, and then we would all be off on our different jobs.

20 Q. And, sir, while you were the assistant commander for Intelligence

21 in the 35th Division, who was the commander of the 35th Division?

22 A. The division commander was Mr. Fadil Hasanagic.

23 Q. And who was your superior in the 3rd Corps?

24 A. In the 3rd Corps, Edin Husic, Mr. Edin Husic.

25 Q. And just for clarification, what was Mr. Edin Husic's position?

1 A. Mr. Edin Husic was assistant commander for Intelligence of the 3rd

2 Corps.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, can you describe how the -- how the

4 intelligence departments were organised at the brigade level, sir?

5 A. As a matter of principle, any brigade would have an assistant

6 commander for Intelligence. The assistant commander would have one or two

7 desk officers, depending on the brigade and depending on the brigade's

8 position and assignment. And in lower-level units such as battalions,

9 again there were assistant commanders for Intelligence. There would be

10 two or three men at brigade level, and each battalion would have another

11 one or two.

12 Under the commander of the assistant commander for Intelligence,

13 as a rule -- well, not exactly always, but most frequently there would be

14 a squad or a platoon of scouts, intelligence scouts. So that would be the

15 structure of a brigade intelligence organ for you, in very rough terms.

16 Q. Sir, in your last answer, you said: "under the commander of the

17 assistant commander of Intelligence, as a rule -- well, not exactly, but

18 most frequently there would be a squad or a platoon of scouts."

19 Which assistant commander for Intelligence are you referring to,

20 at which level are you referring to?

21 A. I mean the assistant commander for Intelligence of the brigade,

22 because we started speaking about the brigade two minutes ago, didn't we?

23 Q. Okay. And now to whom would the assistant commander for

24 Intelligence at the brigade level report?

25 A. The chain of command in the BH Army was the same. From battalion

1 level to the very top -- well, I myself know about the division, but he

2 was subordinated to the brigade commander, and in professional and

3 technical terms also to the assistant commander for Intelligence of the

4 division.

5 Q. Sir, in your last answer, you referred to the battalion level. I

6 asked you at the brigade level, to whom would the assistant commander for

7 Intelligence at the brigade level report?

8 A. I was speaking about the brigade. I may have misspoken if I

9 said "battalion." But assistant commander for Intelligence, the brigade

10 assistant commander, was subordinated to the brigade commander and, in

11 technical terms, to the assistant commander for Intelligence of the

12 division.

13 Q. And when you say "technical terms," what are you referring to,

14 sir?

15 A. These are peculiar tasks, and the commander is responsible for the

16 entire military formation that he's in charge of and the way it is

17 organised. There are various bodies working there, and this is something

18 that is very peculiar, unique if you like, and so are all the other

19 sectors. Therefore, there had to be some link running down the chain of

20 command.

21 Q. And when you say, "the commander is responsible for the entire

22 military formation," which commander are you referring to and at which

23 level?

24 A. Well, all commanders are responsible for their units at their

25 level. That's what they're there for.

1 Q. And the brigade -- the assistant commander for Intelligence at the

2 brigade level, who was -- who was subordinated to the assistant commander

3 for Intelligence at the brigade level?

4 A. At the brigade level, the scouts squad or platoon was

5 subordinates, at the brigade level, and the assistant commanders for

6 Intelligence in battalions, so their number depended on the number of

7 battalions.

8 Q. Thank you very much, sir. Now, in an earlier answer, sir, you had

9 indicated that one of the sources of information, intelligence

10 information, was -- were through prisoners of war. In the context of a

11 combat operation, how was the -- how would the processing of a prisoner of

12 war be regulated?

13 A. Every activity is documented, and for every activity the

14 procedure -- the treatment of prisoners is strictly stipulated, and this

15 is regulated in an order issued by the person who is responsible for

16 treating the prisoners, how to do that, in what manner.

17 MR. MENON: If the witness could now be shown Exhibit P02264. Oh,

18 I'm sorry, I was told that it's Exhibit 444. I'd still like the witness

19 to look at it, though. And if we could go to page 34 of the English and

20 page -- well, actually, if we could just stay on page one and I'll ask the

21 witness a question, and then if we could move on.

22 Q. Sir, do you see the document in front of you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. To what combat operation does this document relate?

25 A. It says here: "Order for the continuation of the attack

1 Proljece-1995."

2 Q. Thank you. Now, if we could go to page 34 of the English and page

3 34 of the B/C/S. And I would note, for the record, that this document is

4 dated the 18th of July, 1995.

5 If we could scroll up on the English. And if we could go to page

6 13 of the B/C/S.

7 Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to the section labelled

8 16.12, "Procedures with Prisoners of War." Can you read that section to

9 yourself? Sir, which organs of the 35th Division does this provision

10 apply to?

11 A. These provisions apply to, as indicated quite clearly here, to the

12 intelligence and security organ, so two sectors.

13 Q. And in light of this provision, what would the responsibilities of

14 the 35th Division's intelligence department be in relation to prisoners of

15 war?

16 A. The intelligence sector did not have any jurisdiction, at least

17 not as far as the prisoners of war were concerned, except in terms of

18 gathering any information that those prisoners might provide. Everything

19 else was in the purview of the security organ. The security organ had the

20 capability to receive, transport and ensure the security of the prisoners

21 of war. The intelligence organ's only role was to try and find out -- try

22 and learn as much as possible from the prisoners.

23 Q. And when would the -- generally speaking, when would the

24 intelligence department make contact with a prisoner of war?

25 A. As a rule, immediately, as soon as the prisoners are taken,

1 because that's when you can get some information, perhaps, and this

2 information is quite important and the information is valid for a short

3 period of time. This is especially the case when you have a combat

4 situation which is developing very quickly. And this information is not

5 so important, after all. You always have to make that assessment, and

6 that's what we always did, whether we should interview the prisoners or

7 not. But in this order, it is stipulated that the intelligence and

8 security organs are actually given the right -- I am given the right to

9 approach the prisoner and to talk to those prisoners, but I am not under

10 any obligation to do so.

11 Q. And, sir, when you say "and this information is not so important,

12 after all," can you explain why you made that statement?

13 A. If a combat engagement is going on, the situation changes from one

14 moment to the next, and the situation as it was ten minutes ago, it just

15 is not like that anymore.

16 Q. And, sir, can you tell us what kind of information you would

17 solicit from a prisoner of war?

18 A. Well, for the most part, our units sought to confirm -- I sought

19 to confirm who these people were, who it was that we faced, because units

20 would switch, would be rotated on the front lines, and any other

21 information that could be obtained from those prisoners. That would not

22 be much, because these people, for the most part, didn't really have that

23 much knowledge.

24 Q. And the information that you received from a prisoner of war, what

25 would you do with that information?

1 A. Well, of course, whatever the information was that I received, I

2 would type it up and send it onwards, with a comment on my part. This was

3 raw intelligence, so I would send it on to the 3rd Corps, to my

4 professional and technical superior in the 3rd Corps.

5 Q. And, again, to whom in the 3rd Corps would you send that

6 information?

7 A. Well, I avoid naming names, because it could have been anyone, but

8 that would always be the assistant commander for Intelligence. In this

9 case, it was Edin Husic, but it could have been any other person, because

10 names are not relevant here. The important thing is the function, the

11 post.

12 Q. And would you report that information to your other superior, the

13 35th Division commander?

14 A. Yes. I've already indicated that all the reports that were sent

15 to the corps were first given to the commander of the 31st [as

16 interpreted] division for his information.

17 Q. And would you ever give information to the -- and you refer to the

18 31st Division, sir. Is that correct?

19 A. I may have misspoken, but it's the 35th Division. Well, it's

20 always the 35th Division and the 3rd Corps, so even if -- and the brigades

21 that were subordinate to them. I am not going to be referring to any

22 other units, or I will do so very seldom.

23 Q. And, sir, would you ever transmit information to the 35th Division

24 commander without reporting that to the assistant commander for

25 Intelligence at the 3rd Corps level?

1 A. You asked me if I would have sent it to the assistant commander

2 for Intelligence at the 3rd Corps without informing the division

3 commander? I don't know if I understand your question correctly.

4 Q. It was actually the other way around. Would you ever report

5 information to the 35th Division commander without reporting that same

6 information to the assistant commander for Intelligence at the 3rd Corps

7 level?

8 A. No, never. Everything that was done in writing would be sent to

9 the commander of the 35th Division and the assistant commander for

10 Intelligence of the 3rd Corps.

11 Q. Thank you very much, sir, for that clarification. Now, sir, do

12 you recall if any prisoners of war were taken during the Proljece-95

13 operation?

14 A. Yes, those were the first prisoners of war that we took. Yes,

15 there were prisoners of war.

16 Q. And how were you informed of their capture?

17 A. I don't know where I was at that time, but somebody called me on

18 the phone and told me that they had been captured and that I should go to

19 Zavidovici and that I should meet up with the assistant commander for

20 Security.

21 Q. And where were you when you received this telephone call, sir?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. And when, in relation to the combat operations, did you receive

24 this telephone call, sir?

25 A. I said I don't recall where I was at the time, but I was somewhere

1 on the front line. I really can't recall where I was, because there were

2 so many things, I can't really remember where I was. But at any rate, I

3 was at a place where I could be reached by phone. There weren't so many

4 places like that, you know.

5 Q. And, sir, you referred to the assistant commander for Security.

6 Does this person have a name?

7 A. Yes. At that time, the assistant commander for Security in the

8 35th Division was a man by the name of Fadil Imamovic.

9 Q. And the prisoners of war, when you found out about their capture,

10 where were they being held, sir?

11 A. I don't know what was contained in the first report that I

12 received, but I know that there were some prisoners of war and that we

13 were supposed to meet in Zavidovici, to go and have a look at those

14 prisoners.

15 Q. And where did you go in order to meet those prisoners, sir?

16 A. We went to the village of Livade. It is in the area of

17 responsibility of the 35th Division, and it's in the immediate vicinity of

18 Zavidovici.

19 Q. And, sir, when you say "we," who are you referring to, for

20 clarification?

21 A. I am referring to Mr. Imamovic and myself.

22 Q. And when you arrived in Livade, what did you do?

23 A. Since we didn't know where the prisoners were, we asked around. I

24 don't know who it was that we asked, and that person told us that we

25 should ask an Arab who was down there. We tried to get in touch with

1 him. It was difficult because the man had difficulty speaking. It was

2 hard for us to understand each other. And when we told him that we wanted

3 to see the prisoners, he first objected. He didn't want us to look at

4 them. And then he asked somebody -- I don't know who it was. He went down

5 further into the village of Livade. He came back and he said that we

6 could see them, but for a very short time.

7 Q. And who first informed you -- who first directed you to the Arab?

8 A. I don't know who it was, but one of those persons who were present

9 there, who were milling around that area. There were civilians,

10 soldiers. I really don't know who it was who told us to do that, but

11 that's an area which is maybe 50 to 100 metres in size. It's a small

12 village. The distances are not that big.

13 Q. And do you know to whom the Arab spoke to before giving you

14 permission to meet the prisoners?

15 A. No, I don't know that. I didn't see that man. I know that he

16 spoke to somebody down there and that then he came back.

17 Q. And when the Arab came back, where did he take you?

18 A. He took us to a house which was very close by. He took us up an

19 outdoor staircase into a corridor, and he took us into an empty room to

20 the left of the corridor.

21 Q. And when he took you into this room, what happened next, sir?

22 A. He said that we should wait a while. He went out, and then we

23 heard voices outside. I didn't understand what they were saying. After a

24 while -- in fact, first he asked us, "Who do you want us, who do you want

25 me to bring you," and he gave us some names that didn't mean anything to

1 us. And he said that there was a doctor among them, and we agreed that he

2 should bring in the doctor because we didn't know who the others were, and

3 we assumed that the doctor would be a person that we could talk to. He

4 went back out, and we heard the voices, and after a while they brought

5 this man in, into this room.

6 Q. And do you know from where they brought this man in?

7 A. No, I don't know that, but I assume that he had been in one of

8 those rooms that you could get in from that same corridor.

9 Q. And can you -- when you say "they brought this man in," who are

10 you referring to when you say "they"?

11 A. Arabs.

12 Q. And how many Arabs, sir?

13 A. Two of them.

14 Q. And can you describe how the prisoner was brought in?

15 A. He was carried in. They carried him in. He was tied to a pole.

16 And then they put it down on the floor. There was no furniture in this

17 room. We didn't have anything to sit on. It was empty. So we just stood

18 there. I don't remember what exactly it looked like. But at any rate, he

19 was carried in and then they dropped him onto the floor. He was tied to

20 this pole with some wire. It was a nasty sight.

21 Q. What part of his body was tied to the pole, sir?

22 A. Both his hands and his feet. The pole went below his knees and

23 above his elbows.

24 Q. And, sir, did this prisoner speak to you?

25 A. Well, I don't really recall, because the moment I saw what this

1 man looked like and the way he was tied up, you can't talk to a man like

2 that, so I don't remember what the conversation was like. And even if we

3 did talk to him, we asked him for his name, who he was, where he was from,

4 but we didn't talk to him any further. There was no need for us to talk

5 to him. This would have been in vain. We couldn't really ask this man

6 anything.

7 Q. And did you take any steps to try and -- to try and have the man's

8 situation corrected at that -- at that time?

9 A. Well, I think that both of us demanded that the man's hands be

10 untied, but it was impossible because his hands were all blue. We wanted

11 his hands to be untied, at least, but the Arab would not allow that and he

12 didn't, in fact, allow us to discuss this issue at all.

13 Q. And, sir, were you familiar -- before this incident, were you

14 familiar with how a prisoner of war was to be treated?

15 A. Well, in principle, we should all know how prisoners of war are to

16 be treated.

17 Q. And did what you see comport with the appropriate treatment for a

18 prisoner of war?

19 A. I don't know whether it was in line with those regulations, but my

20 human feelings were against that.

21 Q. And, sir, you've touched upon it briefly, but can you recall what

22 you asked, if anything, of the prisoner?

23 A. I don't remember what I asked him or whether I asked him

24 anything. If I did, I asked him just the basic information; name, his

25 affiliation, what unit he was in, because you cannot really ask any

1 questions of a man in that situation.

2 Q. And do you recall if Mr. Imamovic asked any questions of the

3 prisoner?

4 A. Well, when I said I or Imamovic, I think that we both asked the

5 same questions, and I think that Imamovic shared my feelings.

6 Q. And, sir, how long did this encounter with this prisoner last,

7 sir?

8 A. It was a very brief encounter. I don't really know. But what I

9 wanted was to get out of there as soon as possible. Well, I can't now

10 tell you how many minutes we were there or anything, but it was a very,

11 very brief period of time, because especially as I sit here, I cannot tell

12 you how long we spent there, but it was a short time.

13 Q. And, sir, can you recall if Mr. Imamovic was with you during the

14 entire duration that you were in the house?

15 A. Yes, he was. We kept to each other's sides at all times.

16 MR. MENON: I would ask now that the witness be shown Exhibit

17 P02288.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just interrupt before we do that?

19 MR. MENON: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, did you come to know the names of the two

21 Arabs?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: And did you come to know the name of the prisoner?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned the name of the prisoner

25 afterwards, or rather I knew his name right there, I learnt it there, and

1 I wrote it down in my notebook. This is something that one tends to

2 forget, and once you write it down and once you send it on, then it is

3 recorded. This was the first and the last time that I saw those Arabs. I

4 never saw them again.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you remember the name of the prisoner of war?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that he's a doctor, but I

7 would never be able to remember that. I know that his name is Sikiric,

8 but I had to look it up in my notebook. There were some conversations

9 later on in Sarajevo, and that's why I remember it. Otherwise, I would

10 not have remembered it.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sikiric?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sikanic, but I'm not quite sure,

13 actually, what his name is exactly, but that would be the general idea.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 You wanted the witness to see P --

16 MR. MENON: P0 --

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I just ask --

18 MR. MENON: Sorry, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, did you talk to other of the

20 prisoners or did you only see Dr. Sikanic?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember only Dr. Sikanic. I

22 don't remember anyone else. I don't know. There are two other names in

23 my notebook, and I don't know why they're there. I don't remember any

24 other prisoners. I simply don't have any recollection of them. And if

25 you were to ask me what this Dr. Sikanic looked like, I couldn't tell

1 you. I don't know. I couldn't describe him.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Menon.

3 MR. MENON: If the witness could now be shown Exhibit P02288. And

4 I'll just note the document is dated the 22nd of July, 1995.

5 And if we could go to page 2 of the English version of this

6 document.

7 Q. And, sir, can you read the second sentence of the second paragraph

8 to yourself, and that would be the second sentence of the first paragraph

9 in the English.

10 Have you had a chance to read that, sir?

11 A. I'm not sure which one you mean exactly. Ask the question and

12 I'll do my best.

13 Q. Okay. If we could just scroll down for a second in the B/C/S

14 version. I guess we're down as far as -- sir, can you make out who signed

15 this document? And if we could focus in on the signature?

16 A. It's difficult to read. Yes, Fadil Imamovic. It's faintly

17 legible. And the header reads that this is a document by the Security

18 Service, so if this was the Security Service, then this should be

19 assistant commander for Security, Fadil Imamovic. That is precisely what

20 it says.

21 Q. And this was the person that accompanied you to Livade; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. MENON: If we could scroll up on the B/C/S version of the

24 document and the English version of the document.

25 Q. Sir, I'm going to refer you to the second paragraph, the second

1 sentence of the second paragraph on this page. In that sentence -- in

2 that sentence, there's a reference to "intelligence operative of the 35th

3 Division." To whom does that refer?

4 A. You mean the operative officer? You mean the second

5 sentence: "The interview was conducted at the reception centre in the

6 village of Livade. The interview was conducted with the approval of Abu

7 Maali with the Chetnik prisoners and this --"

8 Q. I'm sorry, sir, I misspoke. It's actually the third sentence.

9 A. All right, sorry, yes, yes.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues]... the interview with the

11 captured Chetniks, and I just want to know to whom does -- it says "the

12 intelligence operative of the 35th Division," I want to know to whom does

13 that refer?

14 A. That's a reference to me, the assistant commander for Intelligence

15 of the 35th Division, and it's probably a reference to me.

16 Q. And now that same sentence says:

17 "The interview with the captured Chetnik soldiers ..."

18 Can you explain why this document refers to an interview with more

19 than one soldier?

20 A. I don't know. You see, there are three names here. Again, I must

21 say I simply don't remember these two. I don't know whether I saw them or

22 not. This is not something that I remember. I have an informal notebook

23 as well which reflects three names, and they are the same names as the one

24 we see here. That is probably why the plural is used.

25 Q. And can you explain why Mr. Imamovic produced this document?

1 A. Mr. Imamovic produced this document because it was his

2 responsibility to do so. This was in the area of responsibility of the

3 35th Division. The security organ is responsible for anything that

4 happens in its area of responsibility in terms of security. It is also

5 responsible for POWs. Anything that happens in the area under our control

6 was the responsibility of the security organ, and the intelligence organ

7 was responsible for anything that was happening beyond that area, for

8 information that could be obtained in relation to what was going on on the

9 other side of the confrontation line.

10 Q. And, sir, does this document refer to your encounter and

11 Mr. Imamovic's encounter with the prisoners in Livade?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you very much. And can you -- do you have any explanation

14 for how these other two names were acquired by Mr. Imamovic?

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought the witness has told us he does not

16 remember. He's got the names in his book, but --

17 MR. MENON: I'll move on, Your Honour.

18 I'll ask now that this document be tendered into evidence, Your

19 Honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

21 please be given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number 553.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 MR. MENON:

25 Q. Mr. Hajderhodzic, what did you do -- after you left -- after

1 leaving the house in Livade, what did you do?

2 A. I know we went back to Zavidovici. After that, I went away

3 because the activities were still ongoing. Therefore, I still had plenty

4 of commitments.

5 Q. And, sir, did you report the information that you had seen in

6 Livade to your superiors?

7 A. As we speak, I don't remember whether I actually submitted a

8 written report or not. It was my responsibility to submit one whenever I

9 had information that had to do with my work. Right now, I can't state

10 with certainty whether, in fact, I did submit a written report on this

11 occasion or not. Previously, yes, I remember submitting one, and I know

12 why. Because in that notebook, I found the names, and next to the names

13 the remark: "They know nothing." So I'm not sure if I actually submitted

14 a report in writing or not.

15 Q. And, sir, when you say "previously, yes, I remember submitting

16 one," can you explain what you mean by that?

17 A. You'll have to remind me. Did I say that I had, in fact,

18 submitted a report? I believe I said I wasn't sure whether, in fact, I

19 submitted a report or not. I'm not certain.

20 Q. Sir, I'm reading from the transcript from the previous answer that

21 you had given, and you said:

22 "Right now, I can't state with certainty whether, in fact, I did

23 submit a written report on this occasion or not. Previously, yes, I

24 remember submitting one, and I know why."

25 And I was just wondering if you could clarify that answer further.

1 A. My answer is as follows: I don't remember whether I submitted a

2 report or not. My responsibility would have been, if there was any sort

3 of intelligence whatsoever available to me, to produce and submit this

4 report. Since there was no intelligence that was particularly

5 interesting, that was available to me at the time, I'm just not certain

6 that I in fact produced this report.

7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In the French interpretation of

8 your first answer, we see exactly the same answer that the witness has

9 just provided.

10 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Sir, do you recall informing anybody about the situation in which

12 you had found the prisoner that you encountered?

13 A. If the situation had been peaceful, if there had been no combat

14 operations in progress, if there had been no activities in progress, I'm

15 certain that I would have reported this at our regular briefings. As it

16 is, I no longer know I told them about the situation in which I found that

17 man in informal communication, and I don't remember exactly who I talked

18 to, but I'm not even sure if I was able to actually see my commander and

19 talk to him at the time. I don't know where he was. I hardly remember

20 where I was. There were combat operations in progress. We were all in

21 different places, each doing our job. At this point in time, I'm pretty

22 certain that I wasn't able to get in touch with any of my superiors which

23 would have enabled me to at least submit an oral report.

24 Q. And, sir, for clarification, when you say "superiors," can you

25 just, again for clarification, inform us of whom your superiors were?

1 A. My superior was the commander of the 35th Division, and of course

2 technically Edin Husic, the assistant commander of the 3rd Corps for

3 Intelligence.

4 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I take note of the time. I do have

5 another document to show the witness that might take some time, and so I

6 can certainly bring it up and start asking him questions, but I would --

7 in order to finish with that document, I would go over the --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want us to take a break now?

9 MR. MENON: Yeah, I think it would be more convenient.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We'll take a break now and come back at

11 quarter to 11.00.

12 Court adjourned.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Menon.

16 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 I would ask now that the witness be shown Exhibit P02317. And I

18 would just note for the record that this document is dated the 24th of

19 July, 1995.

20 If we could go to page 4 of the English and scroll down to the

21 bottom of the B/C/S version of the document.

22 Q. Sir, who is this document signed by?

23 A. Captain Abdullah -- there's the signature down there. Captain

24 Sejfulah Mrkaljevic was the desk officer in the Intelligence sector of the

25 3rd Corps.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, I would like

3 to object. This is the second time that the Prosecutor is showing the

4 witness a document, asking him who signed the document, although it is

5 obvious that there is no actual signature. Maybe they should use the

6 expression, "Whose name can we see there?" This document was not signed

7 by hand, and I think it would be a good idea for the record to reflect the

8 fact. If we call these documents signed, that might be misleading,

9 because as a matter of fact they are not signed.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Menon.

11 MR. MENON: I'll keep that in mind, Your Honour, and I'll rephrase

12 my questions appropriately.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

14 MR. MENON:

15 Q. Sir, who was Mr. Mrkaljevic's superior?

16 A. The assistant commander for Intelligence, Edin Husic.

17 MR. MENON: And if we could go to page 1 of the English and page 1

18 of the B/C/S, and actually scroll up on the B/C/S. Thank you.

19 Q. And to whom is this document addressed, sir?

20 A. To the forward command post of the 3rd Corps, to Edin Husic

21 personally.

22 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, if you could read the first sentence of the

23 first paragraph to yourself, sir.

24 Sir, have you had a chance to read that paragraph?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. There's a reference there to the 35th DKoV PK for ObP. To whom

2 does that refer?

3 A. PK for ObP, assistant commander for Intelligence of the 35th

4 Division, and this refers to me.

5 Q. Thank you very much, sir. If we could go to page 3 of the

6 English, and scroll down on the B/C/S version of the document. If we

7 could go down a bit more on the English version of the document.

8 Sir, I'd like to refer you to the second-to-last paragraph. Can

9 you read that paragraph to yourself, and also the second bullet point

10 which appears underneath it?

11 And this is the last paragraph, Your Honours, on the English

12 version of the document, which follows also the two bullet points.

13 Sir, have you had a chance to read the text that I referred you

14 to? In the first sentence of that paragraph, there's a reference to the

15 briefing of the PK for ObP, and in the second bullet point there's a

16 reference to prisoners from the Prnjavor Light Infantry Brigade being held

17 at the El Mujahedin Detachment camp. Do you know how that information

18 reached Mr. Mrkaljevic?

19 A. No. I can hardly comment on this report or any other document

20 produced by my superior command. I would normally never see or receive

21 these documents.

22 As for the first passage, the fact was when somebody was coming to

23 the area of responsibility of the division in which I was the assistant

24 commander for Intelligence, someone from the superior command, my

25 responsibility was to welcome them and to make sure their work was smooth,

1 to make sure they were able to complete all of their assignments, because

2 they always had assignments whenever they came. I made sure that they

3 could do their work. And this document here refers to certain activities

4 which I was unaware of. Particularly, I knew nothing about the prisoners

5 that he refers to, the prisoners of the El Mudjahedin Detachment.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, do you know why, in this document,

7 the prisoners held in the El Mujahid Detachment camp at Kamenica, why

8 these prisoners are referred to as being prisoners of the 1st Prnjavor

9 Light Infantry Brigade?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know why they are defined as

11 people who used to be fighters of the 1st Prnjavor Light Brigade. It's

12 difficult to say. I can't speak about this. I only heard of the camp

13 later on. At the time, I was not aware of its existence. I knew that

14 there were some Arabs, or rather -- around. I'm not sure if they were

15 organised into some sort of an army or something. I certainly wasn't

16 aware of that at the time.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: But did you consider the El Mujahid Detachment as

18 being part of the 35th Division?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The El Mudjahedin Detachment,

20 in my opinion, was never part of the 35th Division. I didn't know, at the

21 time, anything about its structure, organisation, or anything else.

22 If you just look at this document, I don't even know what date

23 this is, but it doesn't really matter. If someone is a member of the 35th

24 Division, and that unit is superior to another unit, then this someone

25 should know his command. If Mr. Imamovic and I went to Livade, how is it

1 possible, then, for our subordinates not to know us? We were, after all,

2 assistant commanders of the division commander.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, a division is a big unit, and so maybe not

4 everybody is completely familiar with the leadership of that division. I

5 have no knowledge of why it could be that the people did not recognise

6 you, but I certainly do have a question relating to the fact that you

7 actually went to see the prisoners in Livade and that you apparently

8 accepted that these prisoners were in the hands of the Arabs, as you

9 called them. So you must have considered somehow the relations between

10 the 35th Division and the El Mujahid Detachment, and so I'm curious to

11 know just how you viewed that relation. They couldn't be completely

12 independent, could they?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't in the nature of my job

14 to, necessarily, be in contact with them. It wasn't my job, in terms of

15 how the whole thing was organised. Those who could possibly have been in

16 touch with them were other operatives, or security officers, or anyone

17 else, but it certainly wasn't me. The fact is I never considered them a

18 unit that was part of the 35th Division. And until recently, I remain

19 convinced that they were never a part of the 35th Division.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: But, sir, if they were not part of the 35th

21 Division, how could you possibly have accepted that within the area of

22 responsibility of the 35th Division, there certainly was a completely

23 strange and foreign unit that apparently was acting independently of the

24 35th Division's control? You must have thought that this was strange or

25 somehow sought to ensure that the prisoners would be taken under the

1 proper control of the 35th Division, rather than just leaving them to the

2 fate of some unknown person. You were a responsible officer, and you were

3 aware of the rules, so what did you think?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said a while ago, I worked with

5 an intelligence organ. It was the Security Service that was in charge of

6 security and everything else, and it was their job to deal with everything

7 that was going on within the area of responsibility of the 35th Division;

8 not just the 35th Division, any unit, as a matter of fact, in its area of

9 responsibility. It's the Security Service that must ensure good

10 conditions for everyone's work and for all the activities to run smoothly.

11 My responsibility was different altogether. I believed that since

12 I was with the assistant commander for Security, all of this would

13 eventually be done, and that's all I wanted to know about. I had other

14 objectives, other goals, other jobs, and all of those were catching up

15 with me. I was busy doing something else.

16 As for this order, a while ago I commented on this order for

17 combat operations. It says that the intelligence organ and the security

18 organ have to deal with prisoners, and I told you exactly in what sense.

19 All I was entitled to do is to go and see those prisoners and talk to

20 them, but that was as far as it went. I had no unit under my control that

21 I could possibly have used to do anything at all about this.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, sir.

23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Sir, we know that you were not in

24 charge of the prisoners, their condition, the treatment they were

25 receiving, or anything like that. You were merely in charge of

1 questioning them in order to try and find out anything that might be

2 useful by way of information on the enemy.

3 Anyway, how could you have taken this decision to go to Livade in

4 order to interview the prisoners there? How could that have been your

5 objective if the prisoners were not under your control to begin with? If

6 they were not under your control, then probably you were not entitled to

7 go there to begin with; right?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, I didn't even know -- I'm

9 not sure today whether I knew or not that they were in Livade and who they

10 were being held by. It was only after I arrived there that I was certain

11 of this, and then I was able to talk to them. The fact is they were in

12 our area of responsibility. I would see people in the streets sometimes,

13 I would hear things about this being there.

14 Look, I did hear of the existence of some units, but when I say

15 "unit," I know all about all the other units. I know who their

16 commanders are, I know who the command is, I know who does what. After

17 all, I know some individuals as well. And this was a place where I knew

18 no one at all. I didn't know them. I didn't see anyone being lined up. I

19 didn't realise even that this was a separate unit or what they were doing.

20 I really don't know. That's why I can't accept this. I can't accept

21 the hypothesis that they were under the command of the 35th Division, or

22 perhaps I should express the following reservation: They may have been,

23 but I don't know.

24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In that case, would you have

25 agreed to get in touch with them so that they might provide you with some

1 information? Would you have agreed to hear them out, hear what they had

2 to say, because this is a very unusual situation, the fact that you

3 accepted to get in touch with these people who you saw in the street and

4 no more, as you said; right?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My job was my job. There are a

6 thousand ways to obtain intelligence. I didn't care if I had to get in

7 touch with someone if the final objective was to obtain information that

8 was of interest to me. I would have gone to anyone for information. It

9 didn't matter to me whether they were a unit, a particular unit, or

10 formation. All that I was after was seeing if they had anything -- any

11 intelligence in their possession that was of interest to me.

12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, if I may just pursue this point, and I think

14 we've got to talk with using common sense here now, why would Mr. Imamovic

15 be concerned about the security of these prisoners of war in the custody

16 of the Arabs, if they were not the responsibility of the 35th Division?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is your area of responsibility

18 that sort of puts you in charge of security and other related issues.

19 They were in our area of responsibility, and everything that is in the

20 area of responsibility of the 35th Division should be its responsibility.

21 Should be, as I say. Whether it is or, in fact, not, well, that's a

22 different kettle of fish.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand you to be saying that if a rogue who's

24 not part of the army is just holding people hostage in an area where the

25 35th Division operates, it then becomes the responsibility of the 35th

1 Division to go out and do civil work and investigate why rogue civilians

2 are misbehaving in the area; is that your position?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is my personal position.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir.

5 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Hajderhodzic, I'd like to refer you back to the same passage

7 that we had been discussing. In reference to the briefing of the PK for

8 ObP, you've said that that was -- that that reference is to you. Do you

9 recall what was discussed during this particular briefing that's

10 referenced in this document?

11 A. I did not attend that meeting. There is a list of those who

12 attended up at the top of the page. This was a meeting or a briefing, and

13 Mr. Mrkaljevic probably organised this, simply because there were other

14 units there that were not part of the 35th Division. I don't know why

15 this briefing took place or who needed it, whose purpose it served. I do

16 know that I did not attend this particular meeting. I'm certain about

17 that.

18 Q. But, sir, the passage reads:

19 " ... The briefing of the PK for ObP," so that's the briefing that

20 I'm referring to, and I'm asking you whether you recall what you discussed

21 with Mr. Mrkaljevic during that particular briefing, the one that refers

22 to you.

23 A. Well, it says here "the briefing" and so on. The reference here

24 is to the PK, and then there are the lower-level units, brigades and

25 battalions, and I am sure that I did not attend this meeting. That's 100

1 per cent, I'm sure of it. I don't have any recollection of that meeting.

2 I know nothing about such a meeting. I really don't know why he convened

3 this meeting, why this meeting was held. I really don't know that.

4 Q. Sir --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. Can we just be clear on one fact? Is

6 it your position that you never attended the meeting or is it your

7 position that you don't recall? These are two distinct situations.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sure that I did not attend this

9 meeting. I was duty-bound, however --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

11 MR. MENON: Okay. I'll move on from that point, Your Honour.

12 Q. Mr. Mrkaljevic -- excuse me, Mr. Hajderhodzic, the prisoner that

13 you had encountered in Livade, which -- which army unit was that person a

14 member of?

15 A. Yes, he was from Prnjavor, from the 1st Prnjavor Light Brigade.

16 MR. MENON: Thank you very much.

17 Your Honour, I would ask --

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which army is that?

19 MR. MENON:

20 Q. Which army is that, which army is the 1st Prnjavor Light Brigade a

21 part of, sir?

22 A. Well, I don't know what the name of the army was, the army that we

23 faced, whether it was the Army of Republika Srpska, I don't know that, but

24 I personally used a different term for them, and that was actually the

25 same word that they used to describe themselves. I don't know whether

1 their official name was the Army of Republika Srpska or whatever. That, I

2 don't know.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: What name did you use which they used?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mostly, the aggressor forces,

5 because from our point of view they were the aggressor.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: And did they also call themselves "the aggressive

7 forces?"

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you just told us that you used the name that

10 they used to call themselves by.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Aggressors and Chetniks, and they

12 called themselves "Chetniks."

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: They called themselves aggressive Chetniks?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, just Chetniks. They called

15 themselves "Chetniks."

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you called them aggressive Chetniks, and you

17 say you're using the name they called themselves by.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Chetniks" is the term that they

19 used to describe themselves, and I called them either "Chetniks"

20 or "aggressors."

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.

22 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Hajderhodzic, I just want to refer you again specifically to

24 the second-to-last paragraph and the first sentence of that paragraph.

25 Can you read that again carefully to yourself?

1 Now, the reference in that paragraph to the briefing of the PK for

2 ObP, is it your position that you did not attend that particular briefing

3 to which Mr. Mrkaljevic refers?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. MENON: Okay, thank you very much.

6 Your Honour, I would ask that this document be tendered into

7 evidence.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number 554.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 MR. MENON: I would ask now that the witness be shown Exhibit 396.

13 Q. And, Mr. Hajderhodzic, we're changing gears here. You had -- you

14 had mentioned that one of the sources of intelligence information was

15 through reconnaissance, and so I'm showing you a document relating to

16 reconnaissance, and I would ask that you read -- if we could scroll down

17 in the English, please. If you could read point 1 to yourself,

18 Mr. Hajderhodzic. And on the English, that carries over onto the second

19 page.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can we go to the second page. Sir, there are references to

22 certain features and reconnaissance of those features. Do you see that?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Can you tell us how important these particular features were to

25 the military objectives of the ARBiH?

1 A. These features were not only important for the BH Army but for the

2 whole population living there. They were extremely important. In

3 particular, two features, Blizna and Paljenik, were extremely important.

4 Q. And now I'm referring to the features Dolac, Blizna, Vis and

5 Paljenik. How difficult was it to reconnoiter these particular features?

6 A. Well, in light of the relief, it was very difficult to do so.

7 Paljenik was especially difficult to reconnoiter. But let me start from

8 the first one, Blizna.

9 Blizna is maybe three or four kilometres from the centre of

10 Zavidovici as the crow flies, and from Blizna you can see every single

11 little nook and cranny in the town. You can control the whole town, every

12 little house and every little hidden corner. Blizna was important for the

13 aggressor forces because they could spot for their artillery when they

14 fired on the town, on the factory and so on.

15 And as for Paljenik, Velika Greda, it was a large feature. It was

16 the key that opened up the whole Krivaja Valley. It is a dominant

17 height. On the one side, you can see almost all the way to Zavidovici,

18 and on the other, up until Vozuca in the direction of Banovici, so you

19 have a line of sight to all those areas.

20 But let me go back to Blizna. I forgot to mention that apart from

21 being close to Zavidovici and having a good line of sight, it makes it

22 possible for you to control everything in the direction of Maglaj and

23 Seher. Even parts of Maglaj can be seen from Blizna, and you can control

24 those areas from there.

25 Q. And, sir, you've actually explained to us the importance of these

1 particular features, and I was just wondering if you could explain why,

2 specifically, they could be difficult to reconnoiter.

3 A. I mentioned a little while ago that because of the relief, because

4 of the lay of the land, but I have to first make one thing clear about the

5 separation lines or front lines.

6 The BH Army was in a subordinate position on all front lines, or

7 it held the lower ground, because the aggressor forces held all the

8 dominant elevations, all the dominant hills. So we were always lower than

9 the aggressor, we held a lower ground. So the sight that had to be

10 reconnoitered was overgrown with low bushes, and it was a wooded area, and

11 the slope was about 70 degrees, so it was really very difficult to

12 reconnoiter it. The soil was rocky. You could not move about without

13 being heard. It would be enough for a little rock to get dislodged and

14 the other side would hear you. So these are the reasons.

15 Q. And, sir, you've explained the importance of the Paljenik feature

16 and the Blizna feature, and I was wondering if you could explain the

17 military significance of the Dolac feature and the Vis feature.

18 A. Dolac, Blizna, well, the reason is to give a more detailed

19 designation to Blizna. But Vis is something else. It's -- it's a site

20 close to Paljenik, and this is an area from which Paljenik could be

21 defended.

22 Q. Thank you for that, sir. And can you tell us in which operation

23 these particular features were seized by the ARBiH?

24 A. That was the last operation, Farz-95.

25 Q. And when was that operation conducted?

1 A. I remember the date. I think it was the 9th of September, 1995.

2 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I have a map here that I would like for

3 the witness to mark with the features that he's just discussed, and it's

4 Map 11 from the Court binder, from the map book.

5 Q. Sir, do you see the -- do you see the locations of Dolac, Blizna,

6 Paljenik and Vis on this particular map?

7 A. Paljenik should be written somewhere here [indicates], Dolac is

8 here [indicates], but Paljenik should be around here [indicates].

9 Q. If we could move the map further to the -- to the right?

10 A. Yes, this is Blizna [indicates], this is Blizna [indicates].

11 Q. Can you circle Blizna and mark a "1" next to it?

12 A. [Marks].

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you write a little harder, sir, and make a

14 thicker line around it, please. Thank you very much.

15 MR. MENON:

16 Q. Does the feature Dolac appear on this map, sir?

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. Can you circle it and mark a "2" next to it?

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. Does the feature Vis appear on this map, sir? And if we could

21 move the map a little bit to the right. Excuse me, a little to the left,

22 sorry, towards the witness.

23 A. Which one is that after 1?

24 Q. The feature Vis, sir. And it's referred to as --

25 A. It's here [indicates] to the left. Could I first mark Paljenik

1 and then go on to find this other elevation, because this is a rather

2 small-scale map.

3 Q. Yes, sir. If you could mark Paljenik with -- circle Paljenik and

4 mark a "3" next to it.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. Now if you could find the feature referred to as "Vis."

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. And if you could mark a "4" next to it.

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. And, sir, do you recall -- the document that I'd showed you is

11 dated the 2nd of June, 1995. Do you recall where the enemy lines were

12 located as of that date?

13 A. I remember, of course, approximately, given the time that has

14 passed, but I do remember.

15 Q. And can you trace out the enemy lines, to the best of your

16 recollection?

17 A. Yes [marks]. This would be it, approximately.

18 Q. Thank you for that, sir. Can you mark on which side the ABiH had

19 its strength? On which side of the line was the ARBiH?

20 A. That would be to our left, all the way up to here [indicates],

21 including the town of Zavidovici.

22 Q. Can you mark that with an "X"?

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. And can you mark, with another "X," the area where the VRS was

25 located? And I'd like you to circle the other "X" where the VRS was. On

1 which side of the line was the VRS?

2 A. That would be on this side [indicates].

3 Q. Just mark that and -- thank you.

4 A. [Marks].

5 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would ask that this map be tendered

6 into evidence.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted into evidence. May it please

8 be given an exhibit number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number 555.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 MR. MENON: I would ask now that the witness be shown Exhibit

12 P02444. And if we could go to page 6 of the English version of the

13 document and page 3 of the B/C/S version of the document. And if we

14 could scroll down on the B/C/S version of the document -- or, excuse me,

15 the English version of the document.

16 Q. Sir, whose initials -- the initials "HI," to whom do they belong?

17 A. That's my initials, "HI."

18 Q. And whose signature appears on this document?

19 A. This is my signature.

20 Q. And Mr. Hasanagic's name appears on the document, though; correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 MR. MENON: If we could now go to page 1 of both the English and

23 the B/C/S.

24 Q. Sir, to whom is this document addressed?

25 A. This document is addressed to the Command of the El Mudjahedin

1 Detachment.

2 Q. And what is the purpose of this particular order?

3 A. I don't know the purpose of this order, but this order was an

4 order that was not made for anyone in particular. This was the first item

5 in the preparations for the offensive operations which were part of

6 Operation Farz.

7 Q. But, sir, the document is titled "Order for Intelligence Support,"

8 and I was wondering if you could tell us what the purpose of an order for

9 intelligence support would be.

10 A. The purpose of an order of this kind is to let all the units know

11 about the enemy strength and what they might expect in the course of

12 combat operations.

13 Q. And, sir, why did you provide this information to the Command of

14 the El Mudjahedin Detachment?

15 A. This information was forwarded by my commander, not myself.

16 MR. MENON: Thank you very much, sir.

17 Your Honour, I would ask that this document be tendered into

18 evidence.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that: You have just told us, sir,

20 that this document was signed by you?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: And in fact you have just told us that the

23 initials "HI," they are your initials?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they are.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what is the significance of those initials,

1 sir? What do they mean to the reader?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The reader knows who the author of

3 the text is.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you are not just the signatory to the document,

5 but you are also the author of the document?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: So in fact the content of the document is your

8 brainchild?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then why are you not able to tell us why you

11 provided this information to the El Mujahedin Command, detachment command?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I was ordered to provide

13 this information to the El Mudjahedin Detachment, and this information was

14 meant for all the units in the 35th Division. If you -- look, can I give

15 you a more extensive explanation or do you just want me to give you an

16 answer to your question and that's it?

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want an answer to my question, that's it.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The information was drafted for all

19 the units participating in the attack, not for just one unit. And since

20 this unit did not get it, the commander ordered me to write it and to send

21 it to them, too, and then I put the name of Mr. Hasanagic underneath and I

22 signed it for him. It says "for Hasanagic."

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that, but the document was drafted by

24 you. You had the information that had to go into the document, number

25 one.

1 Now, let me ask you another question. Forget about the content.

2 Now, this unit to which you were sending this order, was it a unit of the

3 35th Division?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I considered that it was not, and

5 that is why I did not send it to them while I was sending it to everybody

6 else. And then I received an order later on to send it to them as well,

7 and that's why I did it. It was done afterwards.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: So at this time when you sent this order, you

9 became aware that this is now a unit of the 35th Division?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what you said. That's not

11 what I said.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm asking you the question. I'm not saying, I'm

13 asking you. Now when you were ordered to send this order, did you then at

14 that time become aware of the fact that this unit is a unit of the 35th

15 Division; yes or no?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: A few minutes ago, when you were being asked

18 whether this unit is a unit of the 35th Division, you then knew that it

19 was a unit of the 35th Division?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're talking about different time

21 periods. We were talking about spring a little while ago, and now we're

22 talking about a different time period.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm asking you the question. A few minutes ago,

24 when you were asked the question, you knew that in this time period on the

25 24th of August, 1995, the El Mudjahedin Detachment was a unit of the 35th

1 Division?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me say that again. I didn't

3 know that. I don't know it now. But this was an indication, if I

4 received an order to send this kind of a report, that this was a

5 possibility. You asked me yes or no, and I really didn't know what to

6 tell you.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't think I understand your answer, sir. Let

8 me make myself clear.

9 I'm asking you a question that a few minutes ago, when you were

10 asked whether the El Mudjahedin Detachment was a unit of the 35th

11 Division, you knew that as of the 24th of August, 1995, you had been given

12 instructions to send the El Mudjahedin Detachment this order because you

13 were then informed that the El Mudjahedin Detachment was a unit of the

14 35th Division? Is that correct or not correct?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not correct. I don't know how this

16 misunderstanding occurred. It was the end of the war, and I still didn't

17 know that the El Mudjahedin Detachment had ever been part of the 35th

18 Division. But you asked me a different thing a while ago, the fact that I

19 knew that it was part of the 35th Division.

20 This order wouldn't have gone to them separately and everybody

21 else, and the order wouldn't have the same significance, because when I

22 send my own reports, I address it to whoever, I don't send it to units

23 separately. I send it to a staff, and then the staff produces combat

24 documents, because item 1 is my item in all combat reports. Why this was

25 sent to them separately is not something that I can tell you.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, sir.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Who ordered you to send the order also to the El

3 Mujahid Detachment?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably the commander. Who else?

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, sir.

7 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 I would ask now that this document be tendered into evidence, Your

9 Honour.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

11 please be given an exhibit number.

12 MR. MENON: And I just want to do clarify one point.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number 556.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 Yes, Mr. Menon.

16 MR. MENON: In the exchange between Your Honour and the witness,

17 he referred to the spring.

18 Q. Sir, when you say "the spring," are you referring to a military

19 operation or something else?

20 A. Yes, the military operation Proljece. We discussed it a while

21 ago, and the question was whether I knew that this military unit was part

22 of the 35th Division or not.

23 Q. Thank you for that clarification, sir.

24 Sir, I want to talk further about the Farz operation. Do you know

25 if prisoners of war were taken during that particular operation?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And when did you become aware that prisoners of war were taken

3 during that particular operation?

4 A. I can't remember the exact date. I did receive a report, though,

5 to the effect that men had been taken during the operation.

6 Q. And from whom did you receive this report, sir?

7 A. From my assistant. He was at the forward command post at the

8 time.

9 Q. Which forward command post was he at, sir?

10 A. Klek, 777.

11 Q. And which -- and where were you when you received this report,

12 sir?

13 A. I don't know exactly where I was. During the operation itself,

14 the 35th Division had five or six different forward command posts which

15 changed as the line shifted. I can't remember exactly where it was that I

16 was caught by these developments. Maybe in Zavidovici or elsewhere. It

17 was probably the second or third forward command post.

18 Q. And when you say "second or third command post," do those two

19 command posts have names?

20 A. You see, these command posts -- yes, they did have names, and they

21 were set up as the situation required. We couldn't know how far we would

22 get. We couldn't know what would happen. We tried to adapt to the

23 situation as it evolved and as we made progress.

24 Q. And, sir, what were the names of the second and third command

25 posts?

1 A. Second, third nomenclature. The second and third forward command

2 post was in Babylon [as interpreted], and the next day we moved to

3 Hajderovici. Then after that, we went to the Blizna area. And then

4 later, it was Maglaj. There were at least four, as far as I can remember

5 now.

6 Q. And now returning to the prisoners of war, do you recall how many

7 prisoners of war were taken?

8 A. I don't, but it was a large number, 50, 60. I really have no

9 idea. It was a large number, though.

10 Q. And, sir, where were these prisoners of war captured?

11 A. As far as I remember, they were captured in the Kesten area.

12 Q. And who captured these prisoners, sir?

13 A. I can't say exactly, whether it was the 1st or the 5th Battalion,

14 but I know that it was a battalion from the Gostovici area. It was more

15 about areas for us. I remembered areas rather than numbers, numerical

16 designations, since military units were often reshaped, reorganised. I

17 even knew the commander of the unit from that particular area.

18 Q. And, sir, this -- the battalion which captured these prisoners,

19 which brigade was it a part of?

20 A. Can I just correct something that I said earlier on? The

21 battalion, yes, the battalion, the 3rd or the 5th, or rather a company of

22 the 3rd or the 5th Battalion, a company of one of these battalions, if I

23 can just amend what I said earlier. It wasn't the entire battalion that

24 captured these people. It was a single company. They were part of the

25 328th Brigade.

1 Q. And who was the commander of the 328th Brigade, sir?

2 A. Husein Zilkic.

3 Q. And, sir, do you know the name of the commander of the unit or in

4 this case the company that captured these particular prisoners?

5 A. I later learned his name. I knew him from the early days, when

6 the army had not been organised yet. We had those patriotic forces, as we

7 called them. His last name was Sogolj. I do know his nickname, but I

8 don't know his real name.

9 Q. And, sir, who is the -- and you've referred to the 3rd or the

10 5th -- well, the 3rd or the 5th Battalion. Who were the commanders of the

11 3rd and the 5th Battalion of the 328th Brigade?

12 A. I no longer remember. You said the 3rd, and if you could just

13 please -- I may have made a mistake. The 2nd or the 5th Battalion, the

14 2nd or the 5th, these two had to do with Gostovici.

15 Q. And, sir, do you know the name of the commander of the 2nd

16 Battalion, by any chance? And if you don't recall, just tell me you don't

17 know.

18 A. I can't remember.

19 Q. Now, when you found out about the capture of these prisoners, do

20 you know in whose custody they were?

21 A. No, but I do know that they were captured by one of these

22 battalions. I don't know what happened later.

23 Q. And what did you do with the information that you received

24 concerning these prisoners of war?

25 A. As soon as I received the information, I didn't process it or

1 embellish it. I just submitted this to my superior command in the form in

2 which I had received it, which means I sent it on to the corps.

3 Q. And to whom in the corps did you send this?

4 A. The same person that I was sending all other documents to,

5 assistant commander for Intelligence of the 3rd Corps.

6 Q. And, again, for clarification, who would this be?

7 A. Edin Husic.

8 Q. Did you report this information to your other superior, the

9 commander of the 35th Division?

10 A. I believe I said this once already. All the information received

11 by the corps was always submitted to the division commander, at least as

12 far as I was concerned.

13 Q. Sir, do you know what happened to these prisoners after their

14 capture?

15 A. I certainly don't. I did hear something later on, but this is

16 something that I heard. Therefore, I don't know.

17 Q. Can you tell us what you heard?

18 A. I heard that the Arabs took them away from this detachment.

19 Q. And from whom did you hear this, sir?

20 A. I don't even remember that.

21 Q. And do you recall when you --

22 A. But this wasn't on the record. I wasn't told officially, however,

23 but I don't know. I heard one, two, or three days later. I really don't

24 know.

25 You see, at the time we had a lot of different commitments,

1 responsibilities, other business. The only way for me to receive

2 information was by phone or through a report, or we were in the

3 mountains. Access was difficult.

4 Q. And, sir, you said: "I heard one, two, or three days later." What

5 are you referring to when you say "one, two, or three days later"; after

6 what?

7 A. After receiving the report. I don't actually know when it was

8 that I heard this. I simply can't remember when I heard it. I can't even

9 remember what the report looked like that I received. I don't even know

10 what it says. I really don't know. I can't remember the report. Did I

11 look at it? Did I not? And I don't have any documents available to me to

12 jog my memory or anything like that.

13 Q. And, sir, you've referred to a report. Does this report refer to

14 the prisoners being in the custody of the Arabs?

15 A. I don't know. The first time around, you asked me when I heard

16 about this, and I said I received a report from the forward command post.

17 I merely rephrased the report a little and sent it on to the corps, but I

18 don't remember the document. It was such a long time ago, I don't know

19 what it said, but I do remember there were a large number of captured

20 enemy soldiers.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection. The

22 witness just answered precisely what he had said earlier on. He had heard

23 about prisoners, captured soldiers, and now this was a leading question as

24 to the prisoners being in the custody of the Arabs. The witness never

25 said anything about the report actually indicating that. This is a

1 leading question, and I do believe that we should avoid this sort of

2 practice in the future.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Menon.

4 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I was simply -- the witness had

5 answered, "After receiving the report," and I wanted to clarify the

6 content of the report. I take my learned friend's suggestion on board.

7 Perhaps I could have rephrased that question in a less leading way.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 MR. MENON: Thank you.

10 Q. Sir, did you hear anything further about what happened to these

11 prisoners after they fell into the custody of the Arabs?

12 A. No. If I may just add something. Had the situation been

13 different, had we not --

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, again a leading

16 question. This witness is being consistently and adamantly led on the

17 issue of these prisoners being held in the custody of some Arabs.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, Madam Vidovic, if you look at page 55, line

19 16, the witness said -- I beg your pardon, it's line 17: "I heard that

20 the Arabs took them away from this detachment." And I've got this

21 question which I want to actually still follow with the witness, and I'm

22 not quite sure whether that doesn't mean that, in fact, they got into the

23 custody of the Arabs.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is precisely why

25 I'm objecting. That is the purpose of my objection, what you have just

1 stated. The witness says he heard about that, but he doesn't know what

2 became of them later, and how could he?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, but now your objection is shifting. Your

4 objection was that he's being led on the question of the prisoners of war

5 being in the custody of the Arabs. Now you want to say how is he supposed

6 to know what happened to them later, and that's a different mission. I'm

7 still on the one, trying to explain to you why it is being suggested that

8 they were in the hands of the Arabs, because the witness has said so

9 himself at line 17 of page 55.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said he had

11 heard that they were being held by the Arabs, and now he's being led on

12 the following: It is being put to him what became of those people after

13 they left the Arabs. The witness just heard something, and then how would

14 he know? Yes, for me, it's definitely impossible for him to know.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why couldn't he hear also what became of them, and

16 if he heard what became of them, he would say he heard what became of

17 them, and if he didn't hear, he would say he didn't hear. This is the

18 problem that, in this Tribunal, hearsay evidence is accepted and we would

19 have stopped this earlier, but now if you accept that he could hear that

20 the Arabs took them, then you must accept that he could also hear what

21 became of them. And let's hear what he's got to say.

22 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Sir, can you tell us if you heard what happened to the Arabs --

24 excuse me, what happened to the prisoners after the Arabs took them away?

25 A. No, I don't know what became of them. Even what I've said, I just

1 heard it. I was physically elsewhere altogether. If you get that map, I

2 was somewhere along the road to Maglaj, and this happened somewhere along

3 the road to Banovici, which is a different area, the road to Vozuca. This

4 is an entirely different area, the distance being 30 or more kilometres.

5 Q. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Sir, when did you leave the Army of

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

7 Sorry, did Your Honours want to ask a question?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I thought it was a convenient time.

9 MR. MENON: I have just one question, and that was going to be my

10 last question.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought so too. Okay, go ahead.

12 MR. MENON:

13 Q. Sir, you may answer that question. When did you leave the Army of

14 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

15 A. I was demobilised in June 1996.

16 MR. MENON: Thank you, sir.

17 No further questions, Your Honour, from the Prosecution.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Menon.

19 We will take a break at this time and come back at half past

20 12.00.

21 Court adjourned.

22 --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

1 Cross-examination by Madam Vidovic:

2 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hajrulahovic. I'm Vasvija Vidovic. I'll be

3 asking you today on behalf of General Delic's Defence.

4 The nature of cross-examination is such that most frequently you

5 will be able to answer "yes" or "no." However, if at times you should

6 find it necessary to provide additional explanations, by all means, please

7 do so.

8 Further, I would like to ask you to speak slowly and make a pause

9 between my questions and your answers, given the fact that we have

10 problems with the interpretation and recording the actual words being

11 said.

12 Do you understand me, sir?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Mr. Hajderhodzic, before the war you used to work as a project

15 manager; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You did not complete any military schools or anything like that;

18 right?

19 A. No, I did not.

20 Q. You completed your -- the regular compulsory military term with

21 the JNA; right?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. You left the JNA with the rank of sergeant; yes?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. Before the war, I mean before the war, you did not take any

1 specialised courses in intelligence, did you?

2 A. No, I didn't.

3 Q. Before the war, you never did anything that had anything at all to

4 do with intelligence, did you?

5 A. No, I didn't.

6 Q. Therefore, you had neither the training required to do that sort

7 of job nor any experience in intelligence work; right?

8 A. No, but I was a member of the Reconnaissance and Sabotage Unit, a

9 reserve unit, which was attached to the Zavidovici Municipal Staff.

10 Q. Before the war?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. Do you agree that the fact that you were a member of this

13 reconnaissance unit, reconnaissance squad, did not necessarily endow you

14 with any technical knowledge, such as is required for any high-ranking

15 positions in the intelligence field?

16 A. Yes, I do agree with that.

17 Q. Being assistant commander of the division commander for

18 Intelligence implied that the incumbent would have completed a military

19 academy of some kind, would have some sort of experience and also hold the

20 rank of at least a colonel in the army; right?

21 A. I don't know this for a fact, but it sounds right. I assume you

22 are right.

23 Q. You don't even know what the criteria would have been for someone

24 to become an assistant commander for Intelligence in an organised army;

25 right?

1 Today, you answered some questions about the job of an

2 intelligence officer and the job of someone involved in military

3 security. You first answered questions by the OTP, and then you were

4 asked a question by the Presiding Judge, His Honour Moloto. You said that

5 you believed the job of an intelligence officer to be -- of a security

6 officer to be this: To control everything that was going on in the area

7 of responsibility of the unit to which you belonged. You remember that

8 you said that?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. And you said, "This is my personal position," and this is indeed

11 your personal opinion, because you will agree, will you not, the BH Army

12 adopted its own rules and regulations at the beginning of the war; are you

13 aware of that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you ever hear that there was a rule governing the work of the

16 Security Service?

17 A. Yes, I did hear about that, but I did not read it myself.

18 Q. Yes. You did not read it, did you?

19 A. No.

20 Q. There was also a rule governing the work of the military police.

21 Did you know about that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you agree that these regulations also defined the

24 responsibilities of the Ministry of the Interior in the war?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And you agree that you did not spend any time reading or analysing

2 those rules and regulations?

3 A. By all means, I do agree.

4 Q. Therefore, when you speak of responsibility, these are your

5 assumptions about what the rules actually say, but you don't know it for a

6 fact?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Very well. Now I wish to ask you something, and I believe you

9 might know this, and it's about the following context. It's about the

10 context of events that you discussed yesterday in the locality of

11 Zavidovici. You spent time there, as far as I understand, both in 1994

12 and 1995, even 1993. Am I right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You provided a very detailed account of the circumstances under

15 which various units were set up in 1993, after the military authorities

16 had taken the decision to establish the corps. You made a statement to

17 the OTP, to their investigators.

18 First of all, do you recall making a statement like that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you remember making a statement in April 2007?

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the witness mumbles.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Let me invoke a particular portion of your testimony. This is

24 938515. This is a tape. This is page 5 of the Bosnian translation of the

25 transcript and page 6 of the English.

1 Witness, I can read the relevant portion out to you. If

2 necessary, I can point out to you what you said. It's a small portion of

3 your own statement. You answered the investigator's question in the

4 following way:

5 "Well, there, I'm telling you again, you have units comprising men

6 who never thought they would be soldiers. These are men who were taken

7 away from their fruit tree gardens or factories yesterday, wherever they

8 used to work, furniture factories, and we had to make soldiers out of

9 these people."

10 Do you remember saying that, sir?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. To the investigator, full stop. Do you accept that in Zavidovici,

13 the army took quite long to establish itself, longer than in Tuzla and

14 Sarajevo, perhaps?

15 A. Yes, I certainly agree.

16 Q. The soldiers were untrained and they had to be organised; right?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. What is peculiar to the Zavidovici area is this: Zavidovici,

19 because of the clashes with the HVO in 1993 and all the way until the

20 Washington Agreement, had been cut off from Zenica; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Again, I wish to quote a portion of your statement. It's a brief

23 one, the statement that you gave to the investigators.

24 Your Honours, again the reference for the tape is 9388A. The page

25 is 7 in the Bosnian and 9 and 10 in the English.

1 You described the situation in Zavidovici in the following way:

2 "We literally stayed behind in Zavidovici, and the 3rd Corps, or

3 units of the 3rd Corps, were cut off, literally. They had no physical

4 contact with the Command."

5 So this situation prevailed until the time the Washington

6 Agreement was reached; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you agree with me that this situation, where military units

9 were isolated from the Command of the 3rd Corps, resulted in a strong

10 influence being exerted on life in the area, including the army, by local

11 civilian authorities?

12 A. Yes, I agree.

13 Q. This influence was exerted because the support for the army

14 depended on the civilian authorities; is that so?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In your testimony today, you mentioned the establishment of the

17 Bosna Operations Group; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Would you agree with me that the establishment of the Bosna

20 Operations Group was done because of the particular influence on the part

21 of the local Party of Democratic Action?

22 A. Well, I don't know the details, but I assume that that was the

23 case.

24 Q. Let me ask you the following: Do you agree with me -- let us put

25 aside the party for the moment -- that the local politicians and

1 businessmen exerted substantial influence on the establishment of military

2 units?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. Let me give you an example. The 320th Brigade, this brigade was

5 set up at the request of the local politicians, at their exclusive

6 request?

7 A. Yes, I do know that.

8 Q. You described this situation in detail for the benefit of the

9 investigators, but let me now show you once again an excerpt, because I

10 believe that this is relevant, and that I believe you can explain to us

11 some issues here.

12 You said, I'm referring now to tape 9388B, page 3 and 4 in the

13 Bosnian version, and that's pages 4 and 5 in the English version, you

14 said:

15 "Politics tried to get involved in military matters. The 318th

16 Brigade had such people. Some of the people from the 318th Brigade would

17 not allow that, and we wanted that if the politics had anything to add or

18 subtract, let the politicians do that through our superior command. And

19 that was the proper position, and it was clear to them that this was a

20 proper position. That is why a large part of the Command of the 318th

21 Brigade left to go to some other military [Realtime transcript read in

22 error "other formation"] formation."

23 And you also said that the division -- or rather that the

24 politicians in Zavidovici insisted that they should decide where the

25 division should have its headquarters once it was established; is that

1 so? Is this correct? Did you, in fact, say so to the investigator?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Could we perhaps have a

4 correction to the English transcript, where another military formation is

5 mentioned? The term "military" is not in the transcript. It has not been

6 interpreted.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let me try and clarify that through

8 a question for this witness.

9 Q. Sir --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do that, Madam Vidovic, can you please

11 direct us clearly, on the English, what you are quoting from, because I've

12 been looking at this page that is displayed here to try and find out what

13 is it you are talking about, and I am completely lost. Can we just check

14 whether the English page that we have is the same page that we are

15 supposed to be reading from?

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am talking about the

17 statement this witness gave to the OTP investigators. That's the tape. I

18 don't know whether you have it in front of you. But if you do, that's at

19 9388B, pages 3 and 4 in the Bosnian version, 4 and 5 in the English

20 version.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: How do I find 9388B?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can show D523 if you

23 want to see this part of his statement. That's D -- can we please have D?

24 Your Honours, let me just check whether there has been some

25 misunderstanding or misinterpretation. I am referring to the statement

1 that this witness gave to the OTP investigators, and if necessary I can

2 always -- we have those excerpts in the system, but if I'm quoting from

3 them, I always have this feeling that we're wasting our time. But if it's

4 necessary, I can have them brought up to our screens.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, okay, I'm with you now.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Sir, we were talking about the way in which brigades were set up

8 in the Zavidovici area. Did I understand you correctly that in 1994, in

9 that area, there was a brigade, 318th Brigade, that was quite successful

10 and disciplined?

11 A. Yes, that was my opinion, and I still have this opinion.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak into

13 the microphone.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. But --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are asked to speak into the microphone,

17 please. The interpreters don't hear you. Please speak into the

18 microphone. Thank you very much.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Yet despite that, the local politicians demanded that another

21 brigade be set up that would obey their orders, and it was set up?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In your statement to the investigators, the OTP investigators

24 asked you in detail about Asim Camdzic's unit. Do you remember that?

25 A. Yes, I do.

1 Q. You said that you did not know under whose command that unit was

2 in 1994 and 1995, despite the fact that formally speaking, it was a part

3 of the army structure; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Let me now stay with this unit for a moment. Do you agree that

6 this was a unit with a pronounced religious bent; it carried religious

7 insignia instead of the army insignia, it emulated the Arabs? Is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes, you are correct.

10 Q. It did not really fit into the command-and-control system?

11 A. From my point of view, it did not.

12 Q. It obeyed the orders that came from outside of the BH Army; that's

13 what you said?

14 A. That's what I believe.

15 Q. You told the investigators that this was a reconnaissance and

16 sabotage-type unit; as such, it should have been under your personal

17 command. Is that so?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Yet it wasn't?

20 A. No, it wasn't.

21 Q. In your evidence, you said that the Bosna Operations Group became

22 the 35th Division in early 1995; is that so?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Do you agree with me that the 35th Division inherited all the

25 problems of this kind that we discussed related to command and control

1 from OG Bosna; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, I agree with you.

3 Q. Furthermore, it set up the various sections and sectors in the

4 Command, but in essence it had a lot of untrained personnel holding

5 officer positions; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will be referring

8 again to the statement this witness gave to the Prosecutor, to the OTP

9 investigators. That's at 9389B, that's the reference to the tape, page 2

10 both in the English and in the Bosnian versions, and I will quote just a

11 little portion thereof, if the witness is able to recall having said that.

12 Q. Witness, you said in this section:

13 "I have to say something that might not really be, since there

14 were some -- there was some hesitation on your part, there was some

15 amateurs such as myself, quite a few of us."

16 A. Well, these are the facts.

17 Q. So it is a fact that in the 35th Division, the most responsible

18 positions, positions involving the highest level of responsibility, were

19 held by untrained personnel?

20 A. Yes. There were only two or three people who were graduates of

21 military schools, and they held appropriate ranks.

22 Q. And those amateurs performed important tasks in the sphere of

23 military security?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Intelligence?

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. It is correct that the 3rd Corps tried to organise courses, or

3 rather it did organise courses, in order to improve the knowledge of those

4 officers; am I right?

5 A. Yes, you're right.

6 Q. The corps organised, in particular, training for intelligence

7 officers in order for them to be able to draft the regular reports,

8 intelligence reports; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. And you took this course?

11 A. Not that one. I took another one, the one in Tuzla.

12 Q. Fine, fine. But you attended this course that provided you with

13 some knowledge that enabled you to draft those intelligence reports?

14 A. Yes. It was a bit broader, but, yes, in principle, that was it.

15 Q. In your evidence, you explained that it was your duty to gather

16 intelligence about the enemy, or the aggressor as you called them; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. That means that you were to gather intelligence about the

20 Republika Srpska Army, their strength, disposition, capabilities, plans?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You did that as best you could?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. You had some makeshift ham radio equipment to intercept the

25 communications of the Republika Srpska Army personnel?

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. But prisoners of war were a source of information for you; is that

3 correct?

4 A. They should have been, but in our case they were not because we

5 didn't learn anything in particular from them.

6 Q. Fine, fine, yes, but now I'm speaking in general, when we're

7 talking about sources of intelligence.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. But I will go back to this specific situation. We'll deal with

10 that in detail.

11 The intelligence organ in your division where you were the

12 assistant did not have equipment for its work?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. I mean cameras, other photographic equipment, recorders, movie

15 cameras, night vision equipment; you did not have that?

16 A. No, we didn't have any of that.

17 Q. You did not have people who would be able to use that equipment?

18 A. Well, probably, even if we -- or rather if we had this equipment,

19 we may have found people who would have been able to operate this

20 equipment, but we didn't have the equipment.

21 Q. I suppose that you relied on the intelligence sources that you

22 could obtain, given your technical capabilities; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Let me now dwell briefly on the Command of the 35th Division. Do

25 you agree with me that in 1995, interpersonal relations in the 35th

1 Division Command were very bad?

2 A. Well, people were not on the best of terms. I don't know any

3 specific examples, but the situation was quite bad. You could feel it. I

4 was on good terms with everyone, but many things were left unclear and

5 that forced people to -- that made you suspect that not everything was

6 right.

7 Q. I'm asking you this question on the basis of your conversations

8 with the OTP investigators, the interview with them. And could you tell

9 me, is it true that the chief of Staff was not on speaking terms with the

10 division commander, that they would not talk to each other for a month,

11 for instance?

12 A. Well, I don't know whether they were on speaking terms or not, but

13 their relationship was very tense, very, very, very tense. It is

14 difficult for me to comment on those relations, because they were my

15 superior officers, but it is true that it was tense. It was not something

16 that I would have expected, so I'm now just speaking from my own point of

17 view.

18 Q. Now I want to ask you something. Is it true that the chief of

19 Staff would not attend the briefings for a month at all, that he was just

20 not physically there?

21 A. Yes, that's true.

22 Q. The relations between Samir Hamdzic, the assistant commander for

23 logistics, and the commander were also bad?

24 A. That's true.

25 Q. And finally the relations between the assistant commander for

1 Security and the commander were also bad; is that true?

2 A. Yes, that's true too.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness

4 please be shown Exhibit 455.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Exhibit --

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 455, 455.

7 Q. Witness, can you please look at page 1. This is a document

8 produced by the Command of the 35th Division, the 21st of July, 1995.

9 This is a report, a regular combat report or a daily combat report, being

10 sent to the Operations Centre of the 3rd Corps.

11 If the witness could please look at the last page of this

12 document.

13 Your Honours, page 7 in the English, the last page.

14 Sir, could you please look at the section that talks about the

15 security situation. You testified today about your contact with the

16 prisoners in the El Mudjahid Detachment. Can you read the part that

17 says "typical problems"? Can you agree that this portion of the document

18 clearly says that there is a problem with documents and the fact that

19 there is no access to prisoners; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please go back to page 1

22 of this document. If we could please have item 3, "Morale."

23 Q. Please read what it says under "(a)," "Combat Morale."

24 Before I ask you a question about morale, let me ask you this: If

25 I look at the portion in reference to security, it is clear that there is

1 reference here to instructions from the 3rd Corps based on which one was

2 supposed to report on POWs; right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You know about those instructions; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. You see this bit on page 3 that says there is a

7 problem, right, and do you agree about morale, that it says they are

8 reporting on their success and how this is affecting the morale? The El

9 Mujahid unit has great influence on the combat morale and security with

10 their morale and way of life they have become a role model to our

11 soldiers."

12 Now, let me ask you this: How do you explain the fact that the

13 commander signs a document where you have part of the Command Staff saying

14 this, and then in the morale section the other part of the morale staff?

15 Does that have to do with the disrupted relations inside the Command,

16 which is what I've been talking about?

17 A. Yes, most certainly you are on the right track there. This is

18 about something, and let me clarify, if I may.

19 What affected appointments to the Division Command was, among

20 other things, politics. Assistant commander for Morale, for example, was,

21 as a rule, a political appointment, and hence the assessment. And I have

22 to repeat what I've already said in that report. The commander tried to

23 give unlimited freedom to all bodies within the division, freedom in their

24 work. There were a lot of untrained people, amateurs. Some knew their

25 job, some just thought they knew their job but didn't. The commander

1 tried to lend equal support to everyone, and he did not wish to alter or

2 amend their portions of the report. He would just let it be, fearing

3 possible clashes with other people, and that is why this contradiction

4 arises.

5 Q. All right. Let me ask you the following in the most direct way

6 possible: Mr. Hasanagic [as interpreted], did you on the 21st of July

7 tell your own story, the situation that you witnessed involving those

8 prisoners?

9 A. I don't remember, but I don't think that I did. Actually, I can't

10 really say anything. You know why I can't say anything? I can't say

11 anything because I took my notebook. I don't have a single document that

12 would allow me to say anything, to go through it, to jog my memory. It

13 would be dishonest of me to say anything at all that I can't back with a

14 document, something that I can't claim. I went back to my notebook, and

15 the notebook literally reads: "I know nothing."

16 At the time that operations were underway, we had a lot on our

17 plate. I know that I followed my new job at the time. I don't even know

18 what the first time was that we met after that. We all did our different

19 jobs in different places.

20 Q. I'll return to that question in some detail at a later stage.

21 However, about this, there's something else I want to ask you.

22 Do you remember that it would be an exceptionally strange idea to

23 use people who are mistreating prisoners as some sort of a role model for

24 morale? How would you find the idea, personally?

25 A. Yes, by all means, let me tell you. I, for one, couldn't even

1 believe there was anything like that happening, and that's why I could

2 hardly wait to leave that room and that sort of thing. But I see this

3 document now. I didn't have a chance to see too many combat reports, you

4 know.

5 Q. Very well, very well. Let me dwell on the relations that we spoke

6 about, we can put this document away, relations between the commander of

7 the 35th Division and other people.

8 Sir, is it true that the relations between him and the commander

9 of the 328th Division, Mr. Zilkic, were also compromised to a large

10 extent?

11 A. Yes, that's true.

12 Q. When you made your statement to the investigator, you spoke about

13 Mr. Zilkic, Mr. Zilkic being the commander of the 328th Brigade. That is

14 the person we are talking about; right?

15 A. Yes, that's true.

16 Q. When you made your statement to the investigator in April 2007,

17 you said that you, too, had certain problems with Zilkic because he was

18 using intelligence officers in a way that ran counter to regulations, and

19 he was using intelligence officers for all sorts of other tasks and

20 assignments that they weren't meant to be used for; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You described Mr. Hasanagic today and his relationship with you,

23 the way he treated you, the way he treated reporting. You spoke in great

24 detail about this as well to the investigators of the OTP, did you not?

25 And here I invoke page 9389B -- tape, I'm sorry, tape, tape 9389B, page 5

1 of the Bosnian and pages 6 and 7 of the English.

2 You say:

3 "I had no problems with my commander. Really, he never asked a

4 single question. Perhaps he had respect for my age, but the fact remains

5 is that he never asked a thing about the reports."

6 What I infer from this and what I want to ask you as well -- first

7 of all, did I quote you correctly?

8 A. Yes, you did.

9 Q. Therefore, I infer based on this that the division commander was

10 not really strict. Reports could be written but weren't necessarily

11 always written. That is my inference. Right?

12 A. May I clarify?

13 Q. Certainly, sir. Go ahead.

14 A. You see, I'd previously worked with the 318th Brigade. It was my

15 responsibility to write the reports there. That was a long time ago. The

16 commander of the 318th Brigade at the time wanted to have a hand in how I

17 was producing my reports. There were some awful misunderstandings and so

18 on and so forth. When I came to the division, Mr. Hasanagic was adamant

19 that the report should be written, but he didn't meddle, he didn't

20 interfere. He wanted reports to be written. He wanted to eventually be

21 shown these reports. But he never tried to affect in any way what the

22 substance of my reports would be. It wasn't about the reports being

23 written or not being written. Sometimes reports were not written, but

24 then there would be an intervention by the assistant commander for

25 Intelligence of the 3rd Corps, and that was a bad situation for me,

1 because he was the person that the report would eventually be forwarded

2 to.

3 Q. Yes, I understand that. But do you agree that your superior, in a

4 technical sense, Mr. Husic, did not know what was going on on the ground

5 unless you informed him in writing; would that be a fair assessment?

6 A. Yes, it would.

7 Q. Do you accept the fact that a commander who works on the ground

8 has more of an insight into what's going on?

9 A. Yes, that's certainly right.

10 Q. Do you accept that it was his responsibility to make sure that

11 everything was included in the reports that was of relevance in his area?

12 A. Yes, I definitely agree with that.

13 Q. All right. I will now briefly dwell on interpersonal relations

14 within the division. What prompts this question is something you said a

15 while ago. You said that politics had a degree of influence on certain

16 people, on certain appointments, rather. You mentioned the post of

17 assistant commander for Morale.

18 Am I right to believe that the reason for the poor state of

19 interpersonal relations in the division was the rift in the division and

20 in the brigades brought about by the overbearing influence of local

21 politicians and certain religious leaders? Could I put it that way?

22 A. Yes, you certainly could.

23 Q. That is because certain individuals from the army accepted this

24 influence, put up with this influence, whereas some others refused to;

25 could I put it that way?

1 A. Yes, you could.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we show the

3 witness Exhibit 509. 509.

4 Q. Witness, just to let you know immediately, I don't expect you to

5 comment on how this document was produced. I will ask you about certain

6 facts stated in this document.

7 First of all, do you agree that this is a document produced by the

8 security department of the 3rd Corps, the date being the 12th of August,

9 1995, and the header being "Relations in the Area of Responsibility of the

10 35th Division"? I assume you are familiar with these relations, and that

11 is precisely why I would like to ask you a number of questions about this.

12 First of all, can you please read to yourself the first paragraph,

13 the long one, if you can, please.

14 I don't know if you've seen this document or not.

15 A. No, I've never seen it.

16 Q. All right. Let me ask you about some facts stated therein.

17 The document talks about civilian bodies expressing their distrust

18 for the Division Command, which has become a place where people gather who

19 are in inter-ethnic marriages and various kinds of

20 merchants. "Inter-ethnic marriages," what does that mean? Marriage

21 between a Muslim and a non-Muslim, is that what it's a reference to?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is it true that there was this lack of trust, distrust of the

24 Division Command?

25 A. Yes, there were misgivings, mistrust, precisely for these

1 reasons: We had, in our composition, people not just with inter-ethnic

2 marriages but people who were of different ethnicities themselves, Serbs,

3 Croats, a large number of men there. This was no problem at all. If they

4 were good at their jobs, well, why not let them go ahead with it. There

5 would be nothing objectionable about that, would it?

6 Q. The reference here is to the civilian bodies believing that the

7 Division was merely a burden for Zavidovici Municipality. Is that true?

8 A. Yes, I do believe that it was true. You could feel this in a

9 thousand different ways.

10 Q. They made requests that they should use their own personnel to

11 fill certain positions, such as assistant commander for Morale, Logistics,

12 Security and so on and so forth?

13 A. Yes, that is true as well.

14 Q. They were adamant that persons of suspicious moral qualities

15 should be appointed, even people with criminal records; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. They drove certain commanders to resign, Lajid Hasanagic, for

18 example, and so on and so forth well?

19 A. Yes, that and many other things as well.

20 Q. You saw references here to the Asim Camdzic unit, the unit that I

21 asked you about a while ago, and the El Mujahedin unit. Is it true that

22 the civilian bodies praised and even aggrandized the roles of these units,

23 the El Mujahedin Detachment and the Asim Camdzic unit and this type of

24 unit, generally speaking?

25 A. Yes, it's true. If you look at the report, you see the assistant

1 commander for Morale passing this off as the commander's report. I think

2 that speaks for itself, doesn't it? It sort of puts you in the picture

3 and very much corroborates what you are suggesting.

4 Q. At the same time, the civilian bodies were creating this

5 atmosphere of distrust towards the army commands, and they exaggerated the

6 importance of the Mujahedin and the Asim Camdzic unit; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can I please ask you to, just for a minute, look at page 2 of this

9 document? Page 3 of the English. And I'm asking you to look at the

10 second sentence right at the beginning of the text in Bosnian, where it

11 says -- Your Honours, well, now it's been scrolled down. Could you please

12 stop it right there? There, where it says "the fact that the

13 commander ...," that would be line 6 or 7 in the English version.

14 And, Witness, I'm asking you whether you agree that -- whether it

15 says here that the fact that among the good officers in the unit who obey

16 are the commander of the Mujahedin unit, the Asim Camdzic? It seems that

17 such units obey the civilian authorities, not the military authorities.

18 Would you agree with me, on the basis of this document?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was this, in fact, how it was in reality?

21 A. Yes, approximately.

22 Q. What do you mean when you say "approximately"?

23 A. Well, I mean approximately, that's how it was, more or less.

24 Perhaps it was even worse than that.

25 Q. And could you perhaps --

1 A. I mean to say that this influence over those people who commanded

2 such units was even stronger. The politicians had even stronger influence

3 than the way you painted it.

4 Q. I'm talking on the basis of this document.

5 A. Yes. I'm telling you on the basis of my feelings and on the basis

6 of what I was able to observe.

7 Q. Yet on the basis of what you say, I conclude that the influence of

8 the local politicians in Zavidovici was especially strong over this type

9 of units, the Mujahedin and the Asim Camdzic unit. Am I right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Fine. Now I would like to ask you to look at another part of this

12 document. That's the fifth paragraph that's in Bosnian and second

13 paragraph on page 4 of the English version, Your Honours.

14 And now I would like you to look at a portion of this paragraph,

15 where it says the power cuts and the fact that the telephones are no

16 longer functioning during combat operations is a problem that needs to be

17 investigated further. This is addressed to the 35th Division commander

18 and the Zavidovici post office. That's a civilian organisation.

19 Is it possible that the relations were so strained that the

20 civilian authorities cut off power during combat operations; is that the

21 fact?

22 A. Well, I don't recall that particular instance, but there were such

23 situations quite often. I don't recall this particular case, but there

24 were situations where we faced a thousand and one problems because the

25 civilian authorities did not want to do what we'd asked them to do. This

1 was something that we had a right to, not something that we just asked

2 them to do.

3 Q. This is a document from the 12th of August. Is this -- do you

4 recall whether there were any power cuts or whether telephone lines were

5 cut in July, in combat operations in July 1995? Do you remember that?

6 A. Well, I remember I wanted to believe that those cuts were the

7 result of something else, some defects, but this is true, what is written

8 here.

9 Q. Thank you. We see from this document that the El Mudjahedin

10 Detachment is mentioned. The Prosecutor asked you some questions today,

11 and now I want to ask you some questions about this detachment. Could we

12 please put this document away.

13 On the basis of your evidence today and on the basis of what you

14 said while you were interviewed by the OTP in a very leading manner, very

15 insistent manner, you said that you had very little knowledge of Arabs,

16 including the El Mudjahedin Detachment. And now I want to show you what

17 you said about the El Mujahedin.

18 I'm referring now to tape 9393A, page 3 in Bosnian, both in

19 Bosnian and in English versions. That's the interview with the

20 investigators.

21 You spoke about the Mujahedin, and you said at that time:

22 "I started to get a picture, a general picture, about,

23 conditionally speaking, their lack of organisation, or rather not of their

24 organisation but of their way of life and their way of operating, and I

25 was sure then that they were divided into two or more levels. One of

1 those levels that was in contact with the people, with the Bosnians,

2 people in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, I think that those were

3 people from the secular part and their only duty was for all those

4 contacts, talks, getting closer, and all the other elements, those

5 elements were hidden from the eye of the other people, they were

6 illusive."

7 So what you told the OTP investigators, was that the way that you

8 saw the Arabs that you saw moving around the Zavidovici area?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You were the intelligence officer; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I believe that regardless of what you tell us today, that you

13 tried, with all your might, to get as much information as possible about

14 them.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. But you could not do so. Those were closed units; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. They were illusive; is that so?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. On the basis of that, I conclude that for you and the division, it

22 was virtually impossible to identify those Arabs.

23 A. You can skip the "virtual" parts. It was impossible.

24 Q. The fact that you did not have much data about the El Mudjahedin

25 Detachment, that was the reflection of the actual situation on the ground

1 and the contacts with that unit on the ground?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like the

4 witness to look at a document. That would be Exhibit 428.

5 Q. Witness, this is a 3rd Corps document, as you can see. It

6 concerns the Manuvar-94. The date is the 24th of October, and the

7 participation of the El Mudjahedin Detachment is mentioned here. They

8 were supposed to participate together with the OG Bosna. You were in the

9 OG Bosna Command at that time; is that correct?

10 A. Yes -- probably, yes. Yes, yes, for sure, I was.

11 Q. On the basis of your evidence today, I conclude that you did not

12 know about the resubordination of this unit, or rather that you did not

13 understand that this unit was now operating as part of the 35th Division;

14 is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. And the reason for that is the fact that this unit did not act as

17 a unit, subordinate -- resubordinated to the 35th Division; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. They did not attend the briefings in the 35th Division, or at

21 least not regularly? When I say that, I don't mean visits to the

22 Division. I am talking about the briefings, where you discussed things.

23 I don't know if you know about that.

24 A. They did not attend any of the briefings where I was, and I'm sure

25 that I attended all the regular briefings. No Arabs were there.

1 Q. They did not submit combat reports?

2 A. Well, I cannot say whether they submitted them to anyone, but I

3 myself did not know about them. I did not know about any combat reports.

4 Q. I'm talking about the Division.

5 A. Yes, the Division. I never saw any such report or anything else.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please put

7 this document away. And since I still have some more time, I would now --

8 I would now like the witness to look at E396, a document that was shown to

9 him by the Prosecutor.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does "E" in the 396 stand for "Exhibit" or is it

11 just --

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Exhibit, Your Honour, yes. It's an

13 exhibit, Your Honour, 396.

14 Q. Do you remember that the Prosecutor showed you this report today?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Could you please look at it. Again we're talking about the

17 resubordination of the El Mudjahedin Detachment, for the purpose of some

18 major tasks relating to difficult elevations, and the way I understand

19 this document, the El Mujahedin should carry out the reconnaissance of

20 these areas indicated here. Am I right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now I want to ask you the following: You are an intelligence

23 officer. You are the assistant commander for Intelligence. You would be

24 the person who would receive any reconnaissance reports, because these

25 would be reports that were the result of a reconnaissance of enemy

1 positions; am I right?

2 A. Yes, you're right.

3 Q. You never received any reports of this kind from them?

4 A. No, I did not.

5 Q. Simply put, they did not submit any intelligence to you? When I

6 say "you," I mean the 35th Division.

7 A. They did not. I would have known if any such reports had come in

8 in any part of the 35th.

9 Q. They did not submit any security information?

10 A. I don't think they did, but I don't want to get tangled up in

11 other people's sectors. I did not have anything to do with security.

12 Q. Thank you, that's fair enough. But no intelligence?

13 A. No, I never received any intelligence from them, and I never saw

14 any such thing in the Division at all.

15 Q. And I am right if I believe that under the rules, you were to have

16 an intelligence officer in every subordinate unit, in every subordinate

17 unit, battalion, detachment, whatever; you would be in contact with that

18 officer, and you would issue instructions to him, and he would give you

19 feedback? Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you have any officers that you could contact, whom you could

22 instruct and from whom you could get feedback there?

23 A. I didn't know anyone, intelligence officers or anybody else from

24 the El Mudjahedin Detachment. I literally didn't know anyone. The only

25 person that I saw was the Emir. That was that one time, but that was all.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine, thank you.

2 Your Honours, I would stop my cross-examination at this point

3 because I believe our time is up.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

5 We'll take an adjournment and come back tomorrow at 9.00 in the

6 morning, sir, in the same courtroom.

7 Court adjourned.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of

10 October, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

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