Page 3786
1 Tuesday, 9 October 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody.
7 Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Rasim Delic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 And could we have appearances for today, starting with the
13 Prosecution.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Good morning, Your Honours, counsel and everyone in and around the
16 courtroom. Daryl Mundis and Aditya Menon for the Prosecution, assisted by
17 Alma Imamovic.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 And for the Defence.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
21 morning to my colleagues from the Prosecution, to everyone in and around
22 the courtroom. I'm Vasvija Vidovic. With me is Mr. Nicholas Robson,
23 representing General Rasim Delic, and with us is Lana Deljkic, our case
24 manager.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
Page 3787
1 Good morning, sir. Just to remind you that you made a declaration
2 at the beginning of your testimony yesterday to tell the truth, the whole
3 truth, and nothing else but the truth. You are still bound by that
4 declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 WITNESS: IZUDIN HAJDERHODZIC [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 Madam Vidovic, you were --
10 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]
11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hajderhodzic. I hope you are rested and we can
12 continue.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Yesterday, we spoke about the Arabs that were in the territory of
15 the Zavidovici municipality, and that's where we stopped. Now I would
16 like to ask you about something that I think you may be able to assist us
17 with.
18 Am I right if I believe that the El Mujahedin unit was not the
19 only Arab unit in 1995 that took part in the fighting in Central Bosnia?
20 A. I think that you are right.
21 Q. So there were various Arab groups?
22 A. Yes, there were many people. I didn't know them, but they walked
23 around.
24 Q. There were criminal gangs among them, such as, for instance,
25 Hamdala's group, and you, as an intelligent officer, probably heard about
Page 3788
1 them?
2 A. Yes, I did hear about them.
3 Q. In Vozuca, in the Farz operation, the El Mujahedin was not the
4 only group that participated in combat operations, I mean, not the only
5 Arab group; is it so?
6 A. Well, I don't know that.
7 Q. Fair enough. Did you hear about the group of Abu Zubeir [Realtime
8 trascript read in error "Abu Zabaydah"] Al Halili?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Do you agree that Hamdala's group and Abu Zubeir Al Halili group
11 did not have anything to do with BH Army?
12 A. I was sure that the El Mujahedin group had nothing to do with the
13 BH Army and least of all the other ones that you mentioned.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, every time I
15 say "Abu Zubeir," the transcript says "Abu Zabaydah." I'm talking about
16 Abu Zubeir. We had this problem in all the transcripts, in particular the
17 transcript of Ali Ahmed Al Hamed [phoen], so I'll make an official motion
18 to correct the transcript.
19 Q. But you understand that I'm talking about Abu Zubeir?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So you don't have any knowledge of Abu Zubeir's group
22 participating in fighting in Vozuca?
23 A. No, I don't know anything about that.
24 Q. You don't know anything about that. Fine. You saw some documents
25 where a mention is made of the El Mujahedin?
Page 3789
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Yet you never saw any documents where the Abu Zubeir Al Halili's
3 group is mentioned in the context of the 35th Division in any way?
4 A. I'm sure of that, I never saw anything of the sort.
5 Q. And the same goes for Hamdala's group?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. And as far as you know, these units, I mean Abu Zubeir Al Halili
8 and his units and Hamdala, were not supposed to take part in the combat
9 operations in Operation Farz, they were not in the plans?
10 A. No, they were not.
11 Q. Fine. Let me now ask you something about the prisoners of war.
12 This is something that you testified about yesterday.
13 You will agree with me that Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Army of
14 Bosnia and Herzegovina did have regulations in place about the treatment
15 of prisoners of war at the time of the events that you testified about
16 yesterday, so this is 1995?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Personnel in units knew the definition of the term "prisoner of
19 war"; is that so?
20 A. Yes, certainly.
21 Q. At least the officers were aware of that?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please look at
24 document D513. D513.
25 Q. I would like to show you the instruction on the application of the
Page 3790
1 Rules of International Law of War in the Armed Forces of the Republic of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you agree with me that it says here that these
3 instructions were issued on the 5th of December, 1992?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the witness to look
6 at page 2 in the Bosnian version. That would be page 4 in the English
7 version.
8 Q. Witness, could you please focus -- and could we look at the
9 right-hand side of the text? I'm interested in Articles 20 and 21, and if
10 we could scroll down the English version for the benefit of the Trial
11 Chamber. I'm interested in the provisions in Article 20 and 21.
12 I would now like to ask you to read those provisions to yourself.
13 Do you agree with me that these instructions allowed the
14 questioning of prisoners of war on information of military nature, but no
15 pressure was to be exerted?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. You, in the field, were aware of how the prisoners of war were to
18 be treated?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Fine. Could you please look at Article 21. You agree with me
21 that it stipulates that prisoners of war should be protected from bombing
22 and other threats, and that they should be provided with foods, clothes,
23 footwear and care, and so on and so forth?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. So you and all your fighters were aware of these rules?
Page 3791
1 A. Well, for the most part, yes.
2 Q. Now I would like to ask you to look at Article 19, para 2. It
3 says it is forbidden to apply measures of oppression against prisoners of
4 war. They must be treated in a humane way, without using violence,
5 offence or threats in full respect of their personality and honour. These
6 are all the provisions that were familiar?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document
9 please be given an exhibit number.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
11 please be given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it will be Exhibit 557.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please look at
15 Exhibit 444. This exhibit was shown to the witness yesterday by the
16 Prosecution.
17 Q. Could the witness please look at page 8 of the Bosnian version,
18 and that would be page 21 in the English version of this document. You
19 remember, sir, that you saw this order yesterday?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. This is an order of the 18th of July, 1995. It says here in the
22 right-hand corner: "Proljece 1995"; is that so?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Witness, could you please focus on item 11.4. We can see it in
25 the English version, too. Could you please look at it. You can see here
Page 3792
1 that the treatment of prisoners of war is regulated in this item; is that
2 so?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So do you agree that the regulations reached the units, the
5 instruction on the treatment of prisoners of war reached the units, and it
6 is obviously used in the orders where the treatment of prisoners of war is
7 regulated; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. You can see here that the centre for prisoners of war is
10 determined here. That was the Military Police Company in Zavidovici; is
11 that so?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And could the witness please look at
14 the last page of this document. That's page 34 in the English version.
15 Q. Could you please look at item 16.12. Yes, fine, excellent. Also
16 in the English version. Thank you very much. Could you please look at
17 this item. This was shown to you by the Prosecutor yesterday. You can see
18 here that the commander, Colonel Hasanagic, defines the location where the
19 prisoners of war are to be gathered, and he also stipulates that the
20 questioning and further care of the prisoners of war is within the purview
21 of the intelligence and security organs of the 35th Division. This is
22 what your commander stipulated; is that so?
23 A. Yes, you're right.
24 Q. Fine. And do you agree that this is the reason why you went there
25 in the field, to have a look at those prisoners of war, once you received
Page 3793
1 reports that they were there?
2 A. Yes, surely, for certain.
3 Q. You testified that you saw some of those prisoners on the 21st of
4 July, 1995. You testified that you saw Dr. Sikanic; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You said that you were accompanied by Mr. Fadil Imamovic from the
7 security organ; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You said that you demanded that the members of the detachment
10 untie the hands of the prisoner, to untie him so that you could talk to
11 him; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You also told us that he refused to do so?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you demand to take over the prisoners at that time?
16 A. I don't remember, but I think that Mr. Imamovic made that demand.
17 Q. And they did not allow you to take over the prisoners?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. Now I want to ask you, you described the inhumane treatment of
20 this prisoner of war. This is what you saw?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. Did you see any injuries on the face or the body of that prisoner?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Let me now ask you something about the further actions taken in
25 respect to those prisoners of war.
Page 3794
1 In your testimony yesterday, you said that you were not sure
2 whether you had reported to the superior command about the state of that
3 prisoner of war; in other words, that he had been tied up in an
4 inappropriate, inhumane manner? Do you understand what I mean?
5 A. Yes, I understand what you mean.
6 Q. So you said that you were not sure whether you had reported this
7 to the 3rd Corps Command; is that so?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now I would like us to go through your reports from that period.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness
11 please be shown D514.
12 Witness -- could the witness please just see the date on this
13 document. You see that the date is -- a document from the intelligence
14 organ -- is that okay? May I continue, Your Honours?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I'm sorry. I thought -- I
16 didn't think you heard me.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine.
18 Q. So this is a document from the intelligence section of the 35th
19 Division, dated the 21st of July, 1995. Could we scroll down a little bit
20 so that we see the signature on it. It appears to be your signature?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. Now I would like you to explain the following to us: Do you agree
23 with me that the information about the prisoners of war, if any, should be
24 contained in this report, where -- under the heading "Losses of the
25 Aggressor Forces" or "Successes of our Units"?
Page 3795
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. So could you please look at this section of this document?
3 A. Yes, I've looked at it.
4 Q. Do you agree with me that it is mentioned here that about 50
5 aggressor soldiers were killed, and they were mostly on our side? Do I
6 understand it correctly that this means that the bodies of the dead
7 aggressor soldiers are on the BH side?
8 A. Yes, that's the gist of this report.
9 Q. Fine, thank you. Could you please look at the other remarks made
10 here. Do you agree with me that there is no information about the
11 prisoners of war for that date?
12 A. Yes, I agree with you.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please have
14 an exhibit number for this document.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
16 please be given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will be Exhibit 558.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please look at
21 D515. This is a document -- I don't know if you see it, sir. While we're
22 waiting for the English version to come up, I want to state for the record
23 that this is a document from the intelligence section of the 35th
24 Division, dated the 22nd of July, 1995. It was sent to the 3rd Corps
25 Command, the Intelligence Department.
Page 3796
1 Q. Do you see that? Witness, now I would like to ask you -- in fact,
2 if we could just scroll down so that the witness sees the bottom part of
3 the document. Could we do the same thing in English, please.
4 Witness, I'm going to ask you the same thing. Could you please
5 look at this document, at the sections where it says "The successes of our
6 units"," or losses, or in fact anywhere in this document, is any mention
7 made in any way of the prisoners of war?
8 A. No, they're not mentioned at all, as far as I can see.
9 Q. Please have a good look, sir.
10 Could document -- were you able to read the document?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So you agree with me that nothing is said about prisoners of war,
13 in particular of any mistreatment of those prisoners?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at the next
16 page of this document. That's page 3 in the English version, page 2 in
17 the Bosnian version. Yes, fine, thank you very much.
18 Q. Do you agree with me, sir, that you signed this document?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document please be given
21 an exhibit number, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
23 please be given an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it will be Exhibit 559.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
Page 3797
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Vidovic, the names that are mentioned here
2 towards the end of the document, who were these people? Just ascertain
3 that they were not prisoners of war.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the intelligence report
5 indicates contacts with the personnel of the international organisations.
6 The way I understand this document is these are representatives of the
7 international organisations who were active in the area of responsibility
8 of the 35th Division.
9 Q. And now, Witness, could you please answer?
10 A. Yes, that's correct. Those are the names of the people that we
11 were in contact with.
12 Q. And representatives of international organisations?
13 A. Yes, their affiliations, their duties, and all other important
14 information is stated here.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm asking because it says that they were arrested
16 for apparently filming the territory in the Misurici sector.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Sir, do you agree that their arrest has nothing to do with the
19 prisoners of war; this was all about the operation of the international
20 organisations in this area and that their arrest is described on the other
21 page of this document? Is that so?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Could this document please be given an exhibit number.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
Page 3798
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
2 Could the witness please look at D516.
3 Q. Do you agree with me that this is again a document from the
4 Command of the 35th Division, the intelligence section, dated the 23rd of
5 July, 1995?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. The document is entitled "Daily Intelligence Report," and could we
8 just scroll down the document so that we see the signature. Do you agree
9 with me that this is your signature?
10 A. Yes, but could you please just let me look at the initials here to
11 the right? Yeah, thank you.
12 Q. Fine. As far as I can see, it says "FR," but at any rate, could
13 you please look at this document again. Could you please look at this
14 section where it says: "The success of our units," and the document
15 again, looking at any information -- looking for any information about the
16 prisoners of war and their mistreatment, in particular?
17 A. There's no information about any of that here.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine, thank you.
19 Could this document please be given an exhibit number.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
21 please be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 560.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Vidovic, these documents are obviously
25 important evidence, and so I wonder if you would be kind enough to also
Page 3799
1 ask your witness if there, in these reports, is any mention of the El
2 Mujahid Detachment, because somebody will have to ask these questions
3 anyway, and so you might as well do it.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
5 Q. Witness, you heard His Honour. When we look at these documents,
6 could you please pay attention to whether the El Mudjahedin Detachment is
7 mentioned there? Could you please look at this document. Is there any
8 mention of the prisoners of war or of the El Mudjahedin Detachment?
9 A. As far as I can see, no mention is made of the El Mudjahedin
10 Detachment, at least not in my reports.
11 Q. Yes, we're talking about the reports that you're looking at now.
12 A. Yes, yes, that's what I mean.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
14 Your Honours, can we please have a number for this document?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it not a document that is already 560?
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is quite possible. Thank you.
17 Could we please have D517. This is a poor copy, Your Honour. We
18 shall try and provide the witness with a hard copy instead.
19 Just for the record and before the witness receives a copy:
20 Q. Do you agree that this is a document produced by the 3rd Corps
21 Command, Intelligence Department? Of course, Witness, I'm not going to
22 ask you anything about how this document was produced, simply because
23 you're not supposed to know anything about that. I will merely be asking
24 you questions about its substance, about what it suggests. Do you see
25 that it was sent to the General Staff of the Army, the Intelligence
Page 3800
1 Administration; right? In the lower right-hand corner, you can see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. This is the 23rd of July. Can you please go to page 3 of this
4 document, of the Bosnian version, page 4 in English. You see
5 Amir Abazovic's signature there? Does that ring a bell?
6 A. Yes, it does. I know that man.
7 Q. Fine. He worked in the intelligence body of the 3rd Corps?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Could you now please go back to page 2 of this document, which is
10 page 3 in the English. Page 2, page 3, the portion in relation to the
11 successful operations carried out by our fighters. Can you please read
12 carefully.
13 Your Honours, it's the first paragraph on this page. About midway
14 down the page, there is a reference to the aggressor having suffered about
15 150 casualties, a lot of materiel and technical equipment was seized, 11
16 Muslims were captured who were doing some engineers work in the area of
17 the 1st Prnjavor Brigade.
18 Do you agree that on this day, the 23rd of July, the Intelligence
19 Department of the 3rd Corps obviously had nothing about any POWs of the
20 Army of Republika Srpska, especially not any sort of mistreatment of these
21 prisoners?
22 A. Yes, I agree.
23 Q. Just a quick look for any reference to the El Mudjahedin
24 Detachment.
25 A. No, none.
Page 3801
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document
2 please receive a number?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
4 please be given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 561, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have D518.
9 For the record, this is a 35th Division document, Intelligence
10 Department, dated the 24th of July, 1995. Could we please go to page 2 of
11 this document, which is page 3 in the English.
12 Q. I think you signed this document; didn't you?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go back to page 1 now.
15 Q. And I'll be asking you to read sections of this document where you
16 think any information on POWs might appear, or the El Mudjahedin
17 Detachment.
18 If we could please scroll down for the witness to inspect the
19 document.
20 Have a look at this bit that says: "Losses" and: "The success of
21 our units."
22 A. No reference.
23 Q. Nothing about POWs then being mistreated, nothing about the
24 El Mudjahedin Detachment?
25 A. No, nothing.
Page 3802
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a number for
2 this document.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
4 please be given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 562, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can now put this document away,
8 and let us please show D519 to the witness.
9 Before the English shows up, this is a 35th Division document,
10 Intelligence Department, dated the 25th of July, 1995. This is another
11 daily intelligence report.
12 Can we please scroll down, first of all, so that the witness might
13 be able to look at the bottom half of the page.
14 Q. Have a look, sir. See if you can find anything on this page, such
15 as what I've been asking you about, Republika Srpska POWs or the
16 El Mudjahedin Detachment.
17 A. I don't see any such information in this report.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at the next
19 page.
20 Q. Do you agree that this is your signature?
21 A. Indeed, it is.
22 Q. Do you agree that there is no information here on POWs or the
23 El Mudjahedin Detachment?
24 A. Yes, I do agree, there is none.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
Page 3803
1 Your Honours, could we please have an exhibit number for this
2 document.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
4 please be given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 563.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Let me remind you that you said that you found out about the war
10 prisoners, prisoners of war, in July, soon after their arrest, and you saw
11 them very soon after their arrest. I have now shown you a whole sequence
12 of documents that you sent on to the 3rd Corps. You agree, there is no
13 information about POWs in any of them? What I'm putting to you now is
14 this: I'm putting to you that this information does not exist in July or
15 in August 1995, it's not to be seen in any of your reports. Do you accept
16 that, sir?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Would you accept that you never passed on any information
19 concerning any mistreatment of POWs to the 3rd Corps?
20 A. Based on what we've seen, that would be the inference, yes.
21 Q. Thank you very much.
22 Now I wish to ask you something about POWs in the September
23 operation known as "Operation Farz."
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Before you move on to the next subject, I think
25 the question hangs on everybody's lips, why the witness didn't include any
Page 3804
1 information about the prisoners of war to the higher echelons.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Witness, you've heard this question. Can you answer it?
4 A. I believe I've answered this one already. It was in one of my
5 previous answers. I believe that if I had no intelligence of any
6 relevance, I shouldn't make things up. My duty was to inform on the
7 enemy, their forces, their deployment, that sort of thing. I had with me
8 a man who was in charge of receiving these and securing them, and I
9 thought he would do things his own way, because there were people in our
10 territory. These are all the reasons that I'm talking about.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: I think you said that you wouldn't pass on any
12 information unless you had facts to base that information on, and it would
13 seem to me that having seen, with your own eyes, the mistreatment of at
14 least one prisoner of war, possibly three prisoners of war, during your
15 short visit in Livade, that would suggest that evidence had been offered
16 to you of mistreatment and that this information would have been relevant
17 for the 3rd Corps intelligence to be made aware of. So, again, the
18 question is: Why is there no mention of what you had seen, yourself, with
19 your own eyes, in your reports from these days?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I believed there was no need
21 for me to address this issue. I believed that we were a team and that
22 everyone would do their job; security would do their job, I would do the
23 intelligence bit. I didn't think at all that our competences should in
24 any way coincide or overlap.
25 Both documents went the same way. They were sent to the division
Page 3805
1 commander and then on to the higher-level command, which was the corps
2 command in this case. That would be it.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: And did you not see your colleague's report or
4 inquire whether he had included this information in his report?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't see it, but I had every
6 confidence that the man would get the job done.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, if I may just ask, follow the same
9 point from a slightly different angle. I accept and I understand your
10 explanation, given what you told us yesterday, that you deal with
11 intelligence and Mr. Imamovic dealt with security. What I would like you
12 to explain is why, then, today, at page 7, line 23, you answered
13 Madam Vidovic's question by a "yes," where she asked you:
14 "Fine. And do you agree that this is the reason why you went
15 there in the field, to have a look at those prisoners of war, once you
16 received reports that they were there?"
17 Now, if you look at what was said previously, it suggested that
18 you are accepting that the responsibility for prisoners of war is yours,
19 and therefore you've got to pass that information on about them. I can't
20 understand why you said "yes" to that answer -- to that question, I'm
21 sorry.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's quite difficult for me to
23 interpret the legal implications of a single word or a comma. It is quite
24 obvious that I will have to focus more on the questions. But there is one
25 thing that is certain. Somebody tells you to go and have a look at
Page 3806
1 something, what that means to me is I should go and do my job, see the
2 people, do what my job entails. That's all. And that's why I said
3 that ...
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The problem is before that question, Madam Vidovic
5 explained to you, she says:
6 "Okay. Could you please look at item 6.12"? Yes, fine,
7 excellent. Also in the English version, thank you very much:
8 "Could you please look at this item? This was shown to you by
9 the Prosecutor yesterday. You can see here that the commander,
10 Colonel Hasanagic, defines the location where the prisoners of war are to
11 be gathered, and he also stipulates that the questioning and further care
12 of the prisoners of war is within the purview of the intelligence and
13 security organs of the 35th Division. This is what your commander
14 stipulated; is that so?"
15 Now, that is obviously contrary to what you told us, because the
16 care of the prisoners of war, according to your testimony, is not within
17 the purview of Intelligence, it is within the purview of Security. You
18 didn't correct her there and say, "Sorry, madam, the purview of Security
19 but not the purview of Intelligence."
20 And then when she asks you the next question, which is where I
21 started, you say, yes, that's the reason you went there, because the care
22 of prisoners was within your purview. That's why you went to Livade. And
23 you say, "Yes."
24 That's what I don't understand, but I hear what you said. Do you
25 have any answer? It was not just one word and you can answer " ..." She
Page 3807
1 explained clearly to you what she wanted to get from you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought I'd explained that
3 already. I don't know whether we understand each other well. But what
4 this order says is intelligence and security organ, the intelligence
5 organ, and I've said this once already, is hereby allowed access, but this
6 does not make the intelligence organ responsible for the implementation of
7 this. The intelligence organ, I talked about how it was organised. They
8 didn't have the instruments to protect, to take in, to do anything at all
9 concerning POWs. All it could do was talk. That's how it was organised.
10 What this order does is it allows me to interview them, but
11 nothing more than that. Maybe the wording is slightly awkward, the
12 wording of this order, awkward. Well, it's written the way it's written,
13 but all it does is it allows me to interview them, nothing more than that.
14 Quite literally, the intelligence organ had no instruments, in a manner of
15 speaking, to do anything else but simply to interview these men. That was
16 all. Everything else fell under the purview of another body.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if the witness could
20 please look at 556.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is 556, Madam Vidovic? Is it a "D" document
22 or is it an exhibit? An exhibit?
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Exhibit, yes.
24 For the record, before the English version appears, this is a
25 document produced by the Command of the 35th Division, dated the 24th of
Page 3808
1 August, 1995. F-95, that's what it says, which means that it has to do
2 with Operation Farz.
3 Q. This is a document that was shown to you yesterday by the
4 Prosecutor. I believe this is a document that you signed about the
5 command of the El Mudjahedin Detachment, and there's something I wish to
6 ask you about it.
7 You explained yesterday that you had received orders to forward
8 this document to them as well, and this is what I wish to ask you
9 something about.
10 You never received any intelligence at all from the
11 El Mudjahedin Detachment that would seem to follow from this order of
12 yours; right?
13 A. Yes, you're right.
14 Q. Could you please go to page 3 of this document, page 3 of the
15 Bosnian and page 6 of the English. Could you please try to focus on item
16 6.
17 Do you agree that it is hereby being ordered to the detachment to
18 take POWs and refugees to the provisional custody centre of the Military
19 Police? What I want to know is: Did the detachment, in fact, comply with
20 this order? Did they ever bring over to you any POWs?
21 A. Not as far as I know.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
23 Your Honours, I want to show a different document now. This is
24 P02568. 2568.
25 Q. You'll agree with me that this was produced by the 3rd Corps
Page 3809
1 Command, the Intelligence Department, and the date is the 11th of
2 September, 1995. This is a warning. It is submitted to the intelligence
3 organs of unit commands; am I right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. This is not a long document. Can you please read it.
6 You will agree with me, won't you, that the document was signed by
7 Captain Edin Music; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You know who he is; right? He was your superior, your superior in
10 terms of subordination in the 3rd Corps; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you agree that the intelligence organ of the 3rd Corps, your
13 superior, that is, is here warning you about your responsibility of
14 submitting intelligence reports?
15 A. Yes, that is true.
16 Q. Could you please look at the very last sentence of this document.
17 It reads:
18 "The intelligence organ of the 35th Division is to put together
19 all of the above information in relation to all of its units, including
20 the El Mudjahedin Detachment and the 2nd Manoeuvre Battalion."
21 Is that what the warning states?
22 A. Yes, that's right, although it reads above that the report of the
23 35th Division was submitted, but without these units, so the warning is
24 about retrieving information in relation to these two units as well.
25 Q. In other words, the El Mudjahedin Detachment did not forward any
Page 3810
1 information to you, so you, in turn, were not able to forward any
2 information to them; right?
3 A. Yes, but this document was to contain something else. I should
4 have been given an instrument which would have allowed me to retrieve
5 information from them. I'd accepted this at the time. I heard it and
6 soon forgot about it.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. What is it you accepted and heard and
10 soon forgot about?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the order that came from the
12 superior command. This was down the technical line of command, and it was
13 telling me to obtain information from the El Mujahedin Department and
14 submit information to them as soon as I received it. I had no way of
15 retrieving information from those people. I couldn't extract information
16 from people, could I?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do I understand you to be saying you saw this
18 order, you accepted it, and you just forgot about it? That's how you
19 dealt with it?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, maybe there is too much haste
21 in my answers, too much haste.
22 I got this order, I received it. I'm sure that I received it.
23 This sort of order could not have bypassed me, no way.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You forgot about it?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to make a bit of a joke, a
Page 3811
1 bit of a prank, maybe change the tone to a more --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Let me just advise you, we are not joking
3 here. We are very serious. Okay? We are very serious; right.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me. I won't try this sort of
5 thing again. Why did I say this? Simply because of this.
6 This was the situation: Someone orders you to do something, they
7 must give you a means of doing it.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just tell you, quite apart from joking, I
9 must remind you of the declaration you made at the beginning and that I
10 reminded you at the beginning of your testimony today.
11 Now, let me just -- you said you were joking. Putting jokes
12 aside, do I then understand you to say you saw the report, and because you
13 were not given any instrument to get the information from the
14 El Mudjahedin Detachment with, you then decided to do nothing about that
15 report; is that the sum total of your testimony on this point?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The point is this: I couldn't do
17 anything. I didn't know who to turn to in order to retrieve information
18 or reports from the El Mudjahedin Detachment.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues]... I'll ask you to
20 listen to the question. I'm not asking you what you could do. I'm asking
21 you what you did. You then did not do anything about it. You did not try
22 to get any information from the El Mudjahedin Detachment because you had
23 no instrument to do so?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You know, we shouldn't be
Page 3812
1 fighting about a simple question and a simple answer.
2 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may this document
4 please be given an exhibit number.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. The document is admitted into evidence.
6 May it please be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: It's Exhibit 564, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Now, sir, let me go back to your evidence yesterday.
11 In response to the Prosecutor's questions about the prisoners of
12 war in September 1995, that's in relation with Operation Farz, you said,
13 and I'm referring to page 52 of the transcript, lines 3 through 7, Your
14 Honours, that you received a report of about 50 to 60 captured members in
15 the vicinity of the village of Kesten. This was from the
16 Gostovici Battalion. You remember you said that?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Then you clarified that you received this report from the
19 assistant who was at the forward command post at Klek. Do you recall
20 that?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. First of all, I want to ask you: You did not have many assistants
23 at that time. Who was this assistant? Could you please tell us his name,
24 if you remember?
25 A. If I recall correctly, that was at that time Munis Camdzic
Page 3813
1 [phoen]. I think his initials that are listed there are "MC." He was at
2 the forward command post at the time.
3 Q. I just want to clarify something. I don't understand what you
4 mean when you say that the initials were there at the beginning. Did you
5 see this report during the war, and then you were able to see the
6 initials, or was this document shown to you recently?
7 A. Well, I can't recall every single event, there were so many
8 events, and I can't recall every single document, every single document,
9 but I think that Munis Camdzic was there at the forward command post. I'm
10 not sure who actually drafted the report.
11 Q. Why did you bring up the initials "MC" now?
12 A. Because the text is drafted by the person whose initials are
13 listed first.
14 Q. Witness, I'm trying to find out how you obtained this information.
15 In other words, you saw a written report of some kind; is that so?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When did you see this written report?
18 A. I saw the written report on that day, the day that is indicated on
19 the document, and this document that I received, I did not change, I did
20 not amend in any way, I did not add anything. I simply forwarded this
21 document on.
22 Q. Were you able to see this document as you were preparing for your
23 testimony here?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did the Prosecutor show it to you?
Page 3814
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now I want to ask you the following question: You mentioned this
3 report yesterday, but you will recall that --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Menon.
5 MR. MENON: I would ask that Defence counsel clarify the
6 written -- what written document the witness is receiving to when he said
7 that he saw a written document in preparation for his testimony here.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me try. I'm very
10 much interested in this.
11 Q. Witness, what written report did you see as you were being
12 prepared for this testimony? Who drafted it and who was it addressed to?
13 A. I hear someone say "receive." I didn't receive anything. I was
14 only able to look at things. There were many documents. But if we're
15 talking about the document that I signed and that was sent to the 3rd
16 Corps, that was the document where mention is made of the captured
17 personnel, I don't know. At any rate, I saw this document. Whether it
18 was here or in Sarajevo, I don't know, but I saw it. I really don't know
19 where it was that I saw it.
20 Q. Please, sir, don't discuss documents in general now. I asked you
21 about a report that you received from your subordinate. Did you see such
22 a report, a written report?
23 A. Here in The Hague?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. No, I'm not sure, but I'm sure that I saw it in Sarajevo.
Page 3815
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please not overlap.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. You are asked to not overlap, please.
3 Remember, you're speaking the same language, and before either of you
4 speaks, there must be interpretation. So you've got to give time for that
5 interpretation to be done.
6 Thank you.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. So you also saw a document in which you report this to someone
9 else, that you report about those prisoners in September; is that your
10 testimony?
11 A. Yes, but I don't know where it was, because there are so many
12 documents, so many things, and I really don't remember what I saw, what I
13 didn't see. But I am sure that I saw this either in Sarajevo or in here.
14 This is a little -- I have a little bit better recollection.
15 Q. But we're always talking about the Office of the Prosecutor?
16 A. Yes, we're talking about the Office of the Prosecutor either here
17 or in Sarajevo, because I didn't meet with anyone else.
18 Q. Thank you. Sir, now I would like to ask you the following
19 question: You remember that you gave a statement to the Prosecutor in
20 April 2007; do you remember that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the investigator asked you many questions, detailed questions
23 about the taking of those prisoners? I'm talking about the 61 prisoners
24 that were taken. Now, let me remind you of the facts, and I'm referring
25 to tape 9395, page 1 and 2 in the Bosnian version. That would be pages 2
Page 3816
1 and 3 in the English version. So I'm talking about the transcript of the
2 statement given to the OTP investigators. That's tape 9395, pages 1 and 2
3 in the Bosnian version and pages 2 and 3 in the English version.
4 The OTP investigator showed you a document originating from the
5 328th Brigade, indicating that this brigade captured 61 enemy soldiers and
6 3 women, ethnic Serbs. The investigators -- the investigator allowed you
7 to read this document in its entirety and asked you the following, I
8 quote:
9 "Fine. Did you hear about this number of prisoners taken on that
10 day?"
11 Your answer is: "No, no."
12 And then another question by the investigator:
13 "How come that you didn't hear about those prisoners, because
14 after all, this is part of your area of responsibility?"
15 And then on the same two pages, there was an altercation between
16 you and the OTP investigator, and in lines 26 through 29, you say:
17 "It is possible that this information bypassed the Division and
18 that it went straight up to the Corps level."
19 And then further down on the same page, when the investigator
20 asked you the next question:
21 "And you definitely did not receive the information about this
22 number?"
23 Your answer is: "No, no."
24 So now I want to ask you: How come, sir, that in April 2007, just
25 a few months ago, you were so certain that you had never received this
Page 3817
1 information about the prisoners, yet a little while ago you remembered not
2 only the report but you remembered the initials that were listed on this
3 report? So what refreshed your memory?
4 A. Well, I believe that I saw this report somewhere, but I really
5 don't know about this report. The reports went to the forward command
6 post. Through the reports, I was supposed to be told about this and I was
7 supposed to sign this report. And if this kind of a report was sent on, I
8 signed it as is, in its raw, unedited form. And why did I say that the
9 initials are important? The person who was the assistant is listed there.
10 Q. Witness, I'm asking you about the facts, not about the reports.
11 How is it possible that mere months ago, you were so certain that you did
12 not receive any information about the number of prisoners, yet yesterday
13 you -- your testimony was different? Why is that?
14 A. Well, I don't know. I probably saw the report somewhere. I
15 really don't know. I don't know what is -- in fact, it is difficult for
16 me to say, because in an informal -- there was an informal conversation in
17 Sarajevo. Now, whether it was informal or formal, I -- I never received
18 any copies of this interview. I was never able to read what I said and
19 how and why, which would refresh my memory. I simply didn't consider it
20 to be all that important, you know.
21 Q. Just a moment. Please, the way I understand you, I showed you
22 portions of your statement in February 1997. This is on record.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And now you're telling us there was an informal interview that was
25 not recorded; is that so? Is that what you're trying to tell us?
Page 3818
1 A. No, there were no other interviews, nobody talked to me after
2 that, but I am saying that this interview that you are talking about, this
3 statement that you're talking about, I don't have it. I don't remember
4 what it is that I said, and I cannot now tell you with any certainty I
5 said this, I said that, and so on.
6 Q. Yes, sir, but I showed you parts of what you said. Do you agree
7 that you said what I just quoted to you?
8 A. Well, if you're reading from the transcript, then that's probably
9 what I said.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Your Honour, I would like to show the witness a few other
12 documents that I consider to be very relevant. I will take maybe about 15
13 minutes after the break.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Menon is on his feet just before we break.
15 MR. MENON: There's a reference to a statement in February 1997.
16 The OTP did not take a statement from this witness in February.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, 2007, or April 2007.
18 April 2007.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
20 We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 11:00.
21 Court adjourned.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
Page 3819
1 Q. Let me go back to this topic that we discussed earlier. You said
2 in your evidence that as soon as you received the information about the 50
3 prisoners, that you sent a report to your superior officer, Mr. Husic; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like the
7 witness to look at some documents in the same way as I did for July. Could
8 I be allowed to use the Bosnian versions of these documents, because I was
9 not in a position to know that the witness would be mentioning that --
10 would be saying that he had forwarded this information to his superior,
11 because as you can see from his interview with the investigator that I
12 quoted, he did not mention that. This is a fact that I heard for the
13 first time yesterday, and that is why I find myself in this situation. It
14 was very difficult for me to find the documents and then to submit them
15 for translation. Of course, it was impossible to have them translated, so
16 I will be showing the witness those documents. And if you allow me to
17 proceed in that manner, the documents will be tendered into evidence the
18 moment we receive the translations.
19 I have two -- or rather two of these documents have been traps
20 translated, but the rest, three or four other documents, we don't have the
21 translations.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can have the interpreters interpret what you
23 are going to be doing with them.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can do so. I will ask the
25 witness to read the relevant portions.
Page 3820
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed, madam.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness
3 please be shown document D538. Could the document please be zoomed in.
4 Q. And for the record, Witness, please follow what I'm saying. Do
5 you agree that it says here: "35th Division Command, Intelligence
6 Section"? The date of this document is the 11th of September, 1995. This
7 is an urgent document. It is sent to the 3rd Corps Command, Intelligence
8 Department?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the document is entitled "Daily Intelligence Report"; is that
11 correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Sir, could you please look at page 2 of this document.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we just see the signature?
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely. That's on the
16 second page, Your Honour.
17 A. Yes, that's my signature.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now could we go back to page 1 of
20 this document, please.
21 Q. Sir, now I would like you to confirm the following: This is a
22 report. The headline is "Features of the Combat Operations and status of
23 the Aggressor"; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could we please scroll down a little bit. Do you agree that it
Page 3821
1 says here:
2 "The use of the aggressor artillery"?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could we scroll down a little bit further. Do you agree with me
5 that it says here: "Successes of our units," and then it says: "Losses,"
6 and could you please read, very slowly for the benefit of the Trial
7 Chamber, what it says under: "Successes of our units" and then what it
8 says under: "Losses," if you could read it, please?
9 A. "Successes of our units. The successful actions of our units
10 continue in combat operations --"
11 Q. Please go slow.
12 A. "For the time being, our forces on the axis topographic reference
13 point 685, Kvrge, topographic reference point 648, combat operations are
14 continuing."
15 Q. Could you now please read what it says under: "Losses"?
16 A. "In the course of combat operations, the 1st Srbac and the 4th --"
17 or rather --
18 Q. Could you please read it?
19 A. "The 4th Ozren Light Brigade were completely routed. For the time
20 being, we are unable to provide accurate information about the aggressor
21 losses, and we will submit this information in an interim report."
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down, slow down.
23 A. "For the time being, we're unable to give you accurate information
24 about the aggressor losses, and we will submit this information in an
25 interim report."
Page 3822
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Witness -- or rather could we just scroll up the document so that
3 we see the beginning of this page.
4 Q. Sir, I would just like you to look at the number of this document.
5 Do you agree that this is 09/109-101-255/95, and I want you to retain in
6 your memory the number "255/95" so that we can keep the sequence of your
7 report in mind.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you agree that in this report, there is nothing that would have
10 to do with the prisoners of war or any personnel that was captured at all?
11 A. Yes, I agree.
12 Q. The El Mudjahedin Detachment is not mentioned at all?
13 A. No, it isn't.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please check that? Could we
15 have another look at page 2? Could you please zoom in a little bit.
16 A. No, no.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. So there is a conclusion here, and no mention is made of any
19 prisoners of war?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Or the detachment.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]. Thank you very much.
23 Could this document be given an exhibit number?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
25 please be given an exhibit number.
Page 3823
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 565, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness
4 please be shown D539. Could you please zoom in.
5 Q. Witness, do you agree that this is a document from the 35th
6 Division Command, its intelligence section, dated the 12th of September,
7 1995? And now I want to ask you the following: You saw that the number
8 on the previous report was "255/95", so do you agree that this is the next
9 report that you sent in, that was "256/95"?
10 A. Yes, I agree.
11 Q. Do you agree that again it was sent urgently to the Intelligence
12 Department of the 3rd Corps Command?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And could we please look at page 2
15 of this document, Your Honours, because I want to look at the signature.
16 Q. Please, sir, do you agree that this is your signature?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine. Could we please look at page
19 1 of this document.
20 Q. Do you agree that we have the same format? The first item is
21 features of the combat operations and the aggressor status in the area of
22 responsibility?
23 A. Yes, I agree.
24 Q. We have the description of the attacks launched by the aggressor
25 forces, then the concentration and the regrouping of aggressor forces; is
Page 3824
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Then we have the use of the aggressor artillery?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document -- could we
6 scroll down a little bit for the witness to be able to read this section
7 that's entitled "The successes of our units," and then further down again.
8 Q. But, Witness, let me ask you, could you please read it out slowly
9 so that the interpreters can keep up?
10 A. "In the offensive operations, the joint units of the 35th Division
11 inflicted losses on the aggressor." As far as the personnel is concerned,
12 about 400 to 420 soldiers were killed, and a large number of the soldiers
13 were injured seriously or they received minor injuries. A T-55 tank was
14 destroyed, another was captured. A self-propelled weapon, 57/2, was
15 destroyed, and a 30/2 Praga was captured. A large number of motor
16 vehicles was destroyed, in brackets "10 motor vehicles," and at least six
17 vehicles were captured, and they were immediately put to use.
18 The units of the 35th Division routed the 1st Srbac Brigade and
19 elements of the 14th Serbian Light Brigade, which is formed of the
20 elements of units that are part of the 1st Corps. And this is now
21 illegible. And some other units. Both command posts of those brigades
22 were captured, and so were their depots. The aggressor destroyed some of
23 the equipment and materiel by blowing up some of the depots. Weapons such
24 as mortars, antiaircraft guns and machine-guns were destroyed after the
25 enemy forces were routed because they could not be carried. I don't know,
Page 3825
1 I guess that's what it says, "carried." The exact information about the
2 captured equipment and materiel is still not available, but we are now
3 gathering information.
4 Combat operations continue in the sector of Radalovo Brdo on the
5 axis towards the village of Karacici.
6 Q. Fine. Could we scroll the document down a little bit
7 further."Other Observations." Do you agree with me that now this is about
8 NATO air strikes, that it has nothing to do --
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. Witness, it says here both command posts were captured. What
11 does that mean, men or command posts?
12 A. No, the command posts were taken. They had been abandoned, left
13 behind. This is a reference to the command post as a facility, not actual
14 men.
15 Q. Fine. Do you agree that in this document, there is nothing about
16 POWs?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine. Your Honours, could we please
19 have a number for this document.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
21 please be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it will be Exhibit 566.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have D540. I think
25 there is actually an English translation of this document.
Page 3826
1 For the record, Your Honours, before the English appears on our
2 screens, this is a document of the Intelligence Department of the 35th
3 Division, dated the 13th of September, 1995.
4 Q. Witness, can you please have a look at the number, the same number
5 you looked at a while ago. It used to be "256/95". Is this not "257/95",
6 your next report?
7 A. Indeed.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine. Your Honours, could we please
9 turn to the next page, or rather there is no next page. Can we just see
10 this portion of the document and look at the signature, please. In the
11 Bosnian, this is page 1.
12 Q. Witness, is that your signature?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Now, could we please
15 look at the portion of the document that says -- could you please look at
16 the document in its entirety first, and then if page 1 could be displayed
17 for the Chamber, page 1 of the English version. Yes.
18 Can we please zoom in on the portion that says: "Successes of our
19 units"?
20 Q. Witness, please, look closely at that paragraph, and if we could
21 please zoom in on "Conclusions." If we could scroll the Bosnian down a
22 little. Thank you. The English, too, this portion, just for the witness
23 to see, the entire lower half of the page. There, right.
24 Have you looked at it, Witness?
25 A. Yes.
Page 3827
1 Q. Do you agree that there is no reference whatsoever about between
2 50 and 60 POWs?
3 A. Yes, I do agree.
4 Q. Likewise, no reference to the El Mudjahedin Detachment?
5 A. No, none.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have a number for this
7 document, please.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
9 please be given an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 567, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can put this one away.
14 The next document is D541. Your Honours, I think this is another
15 document that has been translated.
16 If we could please zoom in on this so we can see the date and the
17 document number.
18 For the record, this is a document of the Command of the 35th
19 Division, Intelligence Department, and the number is 258/95, which is the
20 next number in the sequence that we've been looking at.
21 Q. Right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The date is the 14th of September, 1995?
24 A. Indeed.
25 Q. Could you please again go through the document and focus on the
Page 3828
1 paragraph that says -- well, actually, look at the document in its
2 entirety. Any reference whatsoever that you notice to POWs or the
3 El Mudjahedin Detachment?
4 A. No, none.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could just please scroll down,
6 look at the rest of the document, and then turn the page to see whether
7 there's anything there.
8 Q. "Other Observation," you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Next page, please, just to look at the signature.
11 A. Yes, it's mine.
12 Q. Therefore, again, no reference to POWs; you agree?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a number for
15 this document, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
17 please be given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 568, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now D542.
21 Could we please zoom in on the upper half of the page in the
22 Bosnian so that we can see the date and the number. Thank you.
23 Q. Again, the Command of the 35th Division, Intelligence Department.
24 The number is 259/95, the next number in the sequence; right?
25 A. Yes.
Page 3829
1 Q. The 15th of September, submitted to the Command of the 3rd Corps,
2 Intelligence Department; right?
3 A. Yes, I see that.
4 Q. Can you please look at the substance of this document.
5 Your Honours, we have no English translation for this one. I will
6 be asking the witness to look at the portion that says: "Successes of our
7 units."
8 First of all, Witness, do you agree that the upper half of the
9 document describes the concentration and regrouping by the aggressor
10 forces; right?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. Then the use of artillery by the aggressor?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. "Successes of our units," and then if you can read slowly,
15 please -- no, no, no, this is not the portion. If you could scroll down
16 and zoom in, please. That's it. Can you read this, Witness, slowly for
17 the benefit of the Chamber?
18 A. "Our forces continue successfully building up on their initial
19 success after routing the front line or the front end of the aggressor and
20 taking the Blizna facility or feature, Dolac village, and
21 Karacic. "Information on other observations. Civilians were noticed
22 moving en masse from Bagatic village towards Jablanica village. Increased
23 traffic in territory under the control of the HVO during the night."
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please scroll down slightly
25 to see what it says under the heading "Conclusions."
Page 3830
1 A. "Conclusions on the features and condition of the aggressor forces
2 and combat operations in the area of responsibility. The aggressor --
3 minor firing by artillery on the town."
4 Q. Next page, please.
5 A. "Maglaj and Zavidovici, in the evening hours, there were no new
6 entries by the aggressor forces to the Ozren area. After routing the
7 aggressor's front end and the advance of our forces on Maglaj town, the
8 aggressor still unable to consolidate their ranks. Our forces are still
9 building on their initial success."
10 Q. This is your signature; right?
11 A. Yes, I agree.
12 Q. So this was a report in reference to the 15th of September, 1995.
13 There is no reference to POWs, is there?
14 A. No, none.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a number for
16 this exhibit, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
18 please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 569 [Realtime transcript read
20 in error "568"], Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, a correction in the transcript. 569.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. Witness, I've been showing you documents up to the 15th of
25 September. I am putting to you that there is not a single report that you
Page 3831
1 produced until the end of September 1995 where you mentioned this
2 information that you spoke about, between 50 and 60 POWs. Do you accept
3 that?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. When I say "POWs," I mean soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska
6 whom you say you heard had been captured.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You never mentioned those in your reports to the 3rd Corps?
9 A. No. Based on this, I didn't.
10 Q. Let me put it this way, Mr. Hajderhodzic. It is quite clear,
11 after all, that you had some authority, you say; it was the Military
12 Security Service that had some powers over the prisoners, but would you
13 accept that they were another source of intelligence for you?
14 A. Yes, I do accept that.
15 Q. If you knew about those POWs at the time, would it not have been a
16 logical move on your part to go and look for them and try to get some
17 information?
18 A. It would have been a logical move, but the situation being what it
19 was, the information would no longer have mattered, at least not to me.
20 Q. Do you agree that in relation to Operation Farz, the corps ordered
21 that POWs should, first and foremost, be interviewed by intelligence
22 officers before they are taken over by security officers?
23 A. Yes, I do agree. That was the way it was meant to be. First, you
24 get intelligence officers to interview them, with the assistance of the
25 security service. Intelligence officers are the first to access prisoners
Page 3832
1 and the first to interview them. That's the way it was supposed to be.
2 Q. But you never reached this group yourself, did you?
3 A. No, I didn't.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
5 Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
7 Yes, Mr. Menon. Re-examination.
8 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Menon:
10 Q. Sir, I want to take you back to -- back to the time you spent in
11 Livade, when you met the POW who you've identified as Mr. Sikanic. Did
12 you spend any time examining Mr. Sikanic for any injuries that he may have
13 suffered?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you recall if Mr. Imamovic spent any time examining Mr. Sikanic
16 for any injuries?
17 A. No, and of course he wasn't qualified to do that sort of thing,
18 examine people for injuries. Nor was I, for that matter.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, during the course of your cross-examination,
20 you've looked at a number of daily intelligence reports that you drafted,
21 and during the course of your direct examination, you had referred to
22 another type of report that you would submit to your superiors, namely, an
23 interim intelligence report. Can you tell us why -- under what
24 circumstances would you submit an interim intelligence report?
25 A. There were daily and interim intelligence reports, as you say.
Page 3833
1 Their numbers are what they are. The Defence had not alerted me to the
2 fact, I wouldn't have paid any attention to it myself, but the numbers
3 speak for themselves. They give you the sequence of the documents that
4 passed through the operative sector. Interim reports are also reports,
5 regardless. They don't have a separate nomenclature, they have the same
6 nomenclature. They are treated the same way.
7 Q. But that wasn't my question to you. My question to you was under
8 what circumstances you would submit an interim intelligence report. That
9 was my question.
10 A. Whenever something out of the ordinary happened, something that
11 was not expected, something that maybe it didn't get that much attention
12 during the day, this couldn't wait for the daily report to be drafted.
13 MR. MENON: Thank you. Now, if the witness could be shown Exhibit
14 554. And if we could go to page 3 of the English, and there's only one
15 page in the B/C/S.
16 Q. And, sir, I'm going to direct you again to the second bullet point
17 under the second-to-last paragraph of the B/C/S. And, Your Honours,
18 that's the second bullet point under the last page in the English.
19 If we could get the B/C/S back, please.
20 Sir, again I'm referring you to the second bullet point under the
21 second-to-last paragraph, which begins: "Meet with superior officer of
22 the El Mudjahedin Detachment ..."
23 During the course of your cross-examination yesterday, the
24 question was put to you:
25 "Do you agree that your superior --"
Page 3834
1 Can we scroll down on the English, please. Thank you.
2 Yesterday, during the course of your cross-examination, the
3 question was put to you:
4 "Do you agree that your superior, in a technical sense,
5 Mr. Husic, did not know what was going on on the ground unless you
6 informed him in writing? Would that be a fair assessment?"
7 And the answer that you had given was: "Yes, it would."
8 Now, in relation to the second bullet point, there's reference
9 there to the prisoners of the Prnjavor Light Brigade being located at the
10 El Mujahedin Detachment camp. If the 3rd Corps Intelligence Department
11 was dependent on you for information, could you explain to us how the
12 presence of these POWs at the El Mudjahedin Detachment camp could have
13 reached that department?
14 A. Probably through the Security Service of the 35th Division on the
15 Corps.
16 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, sir.
17 Now, yesterday you had referred to a person -- you had stated
18 that, "The only person I saw was the Emir." Can you elaborate on that
19 answer? And let me just be a little clearer. The question that had been
20 put to you was:
21 "Did you have any officers that you could contact whom you could
22 instruct and from whom you could get feedback there?"
23 And the answer that you had given is:
24 "I didn't know anyone --"
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
Page 3835
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please have a
2 reference for this particular portion of the evidence that's being quoted,
3 where apparently the witness said, "The only person I saw was the Emir,"
4 because I don't remember that reference, myself. If we could have the
5 page number, perhaps.
6 MR. MENON: Yes, Your Honour. It's page number 3784. The
7 question begins at line 21, and then it continues on -- actually, it ends,
8 it ends at 3784, so the answer ends at line 25.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that yesterday's evidence?
10 MR. MENON: Yes, Your Honour, it is.
11 Q. Sir, let me read the question out to you that was put to you. The
12 question was:
13 "Did you have any officers that you could contact, whom you could
14 instruct and from whom you could get feedback there?"
15 And you answered:
16 "I didn't know anyone, intelligence officers or anybody else from
17 the El Mudjahedin Detachment camp. I literally didn't know anyone. The
18 only person I saw was the Emir. That was that one time, but that was
19 all."
20 Can you tell us what this person's name is, the person you
21 referred to as the Emir?
22 A. I didn't call him the Emir. Eimen [Realtime transcript read in
23 error "Amin"], Eimen, I think that was the name or something.
24 Q. And, sir, why did you meet Eimen?
25 A. I didn't meet him, I just knew him. I didn't meet him.
Page 3836
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we could have a
2 correction, the name is "Eimen." It's a very important name in this
3 trial, Eimen. That's what the witness said,"Eimen", not "Amin" or
4 whatever. Eimen.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you spell it for the benefit of the
6 stenographer, please, Madam Vidovic?
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness, can you please spell the
8 name?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I think the name was,
10 but I really don't know. E-I-M-E-N. Yes, I think it's right now.
11 MR. MENON:
12 Q. And, sir, can you tell us why you met with Eimen?
13 A. As I said a while ago, I didn't meet him. He was simply the only
14 Mujahedin, the only Arab I knew in that place.
15 Q. How did you come to know him, then?
16 A. I don't even remember how we first met. I didn't really meet him
17 in that way. We weren't introduced. I just happened to know his name and
18 who he was.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: But your testimony yesterday says you saw
20 him. "The only person I saw was," as it was recorded yesterday, "the
21 Emir." Now we know it's "Eimen." Where and when did you see him on that
22 occasion, sir?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw him quite often, but I didn't
24 know exactly who he was. I would see him out in the street, in the field,
25 but I didn't know who he was. I never personally met him, in the sense of
Page 3837
1 being introduced to him, but I knew his name and I knew who he was.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 You may proceed, Mr. Menon.
4 MR. MENON:
5 Q. Can you elaborate on the answer you just gave to the Judge,
6 Mr. Hajderhodzic, namely, "I would see him out in the street, in the
7 field"? Under what circumstances would you see him in the street and in
8 the field?
9 A. Well, you see, out in the street, like anybody else, you see
10 someone ten times more, you see them, their faces become familiar. It was
11 difficult for me to distinguish between all those people. I saw him
12 several times in certain areas where our units were.
13 Q. And you also went on to say that:
14 "I never personally met him, in the sense of being introduced to
15 him, but I knew his name and I knew who he was."
16 Could you tell us how you knew his name and how you knew who he
17 was?
18 A. If you're talking about his role in the unit, I don't know. I
19 knew he was an Arab. I knew he was a man who was there. I knew he had
20 something to do with the Mujahedin, and that's as much as I knew about
21 him.
22 Q. But, sir, how did you know -- how did you come to know his name?
23 A. I don't know. Someone must have told me. I can't say who.
24 Outsiders knew more about those men than the people from the Division
25 Command like us.
Page 3838
1 Q. Thank you very much, sir. And Eimen, what languages did he speak?
2 A. I don't know what languages he spoke, but I think his Bosnian was
3 quite bad.
4 Q. And how did you know that he spoke Bosnian, sir?
5 A. Well, I saw him communicate with the people.
6 Q. And which people are you referring to, sir?
7 A. I'm talking about the ordinary people in the field. Well, you
8 can't prohibit somebody from talking to people.
9 MR. MENON: Thank you very much, sir.
10 Now, if the witness could be shown the document marked for
11 identification 480.
12 I'll note for the record that this document is dated the 13th of
13 September, 1995, and it's addressed to the 35th dKoV command post.
14 If we could now go to page 2 of the B/C/S and page 3 of the
15 English.
16 Q. And, sir -- if we could scroll down on the B/C/S, perhaps. Sir,
17 I'd like to direct your attention to the section marked "4", and it's
18 entitled "Remark," and namely the second bullet point there. And there's
19 a reference there to two companies of the 5th Battalion of the 328th
20 Brigade capturing 61 hostiles.
21 Sir, is this the information -- it's the second bullet point.
22 There are actually two sections marked "4". I apologise for that. It's
23 the section that's marked "Remark," Your Honour.
24 Sir, is this the information on prisoners of war that you had --
25 that you received during the course of the Farz operation and to which
Page 3839
1 you've referred to during your testimony?
2 A. Yes, it was based on this document that I believe that -- do you
3 want me to clarify this?
4 Q. Yes, if you could, sir.
5 A. Right. This is the logic behind this reasoning: There was a
6 report from lower-level units which reached the 35th Division. This was
7 for me to receive, to look at, to read, and then based on all these
8 reports, to produce a report that I was to send to the Corps Command. It
9 was actually my responsibility, the responsibility of the Intelligence
10 Department.
11 What date is this?
12 Q. If we could go back to the first page.
13 A. I would just like to see the date. This is the 13th of September.
14 On the 13th of September -- I don't know, I don't remember my whereabouts
15 on the 13th of September, probably in Hajderovici or somewhere. This was
16 the sort of information that was collected at the command post or the
17 forward command post, and I was at the time at the forward command post,
18 and then it moved from one place to another, and I really don't know why
19 this didn't make the report.
20 The report was put together by men who received information and
21 sent it directly to me. I just signed these things off. Those were the
22 people who were there. Yes, well, I was convinced this would be in my
23 report because it would only be logical for information contained in the
24 combat report of one of the brigades to be included in my report.
25 Q. And, sir, beyond written reports, could you inform us of how you
Page 3840
1 would communicate with your superiors?
2 A. Well, we were able to communicate perhaps over the phone or face
3 to face, but in the course of combat operations we could communicate on
4 very few occasions or it was, in fact, difficult. Only when the telephone
5 lines were set up it was possible for us to talk over the phone. And
6 during the combat operations, we were so far apart that it was impossible
7 for us to meet face to face at all.
8 Q. You referred to telephone communications, sir. Was this a means
9 that you would use to communicate with your superiors?
10 A. Well, what superiors, my superior in the technical terms or with
11 my commander?
12 Q. Both, sir.
13 A. I was together with the part of the Command of the 35th Division.
14 We moved forward, and only when we set up -- I don't really remember who I
15 talked to, what means of communications we used, but if it was possible to
16 talk over the phone, that's what we did. And as to what I was talking
17 about ...
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like to finish your sentence, please,
19 sir.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that it is difficult
21 for me to remember any conversations or, in fact, whether there were any
22 conversations at all, because if you go somewhere, if you move forward,
23 and if you change places, if you change command posts, you have to take
24 everything with you, you have to establish the lines, you have to
25 establish communications, you have to set up the whole infrastructure for
Page 3841
1 the communications, and this is very difficult. And often it would happen
2 that we would move to a new command post and we had not established any
3 communications with whoever it was that we were supposed to be in
4 communication with, because the events preempted us.
5 The communications amongst us were carried out either over the
6 phone or face to face. I really don't know in what way. We simply
7 communicated any which way we could. We made due of anything we had at
8 our disposal a thousand and one different ways.
9 MR. MENON: I was under the impression that Your Honour wanted to
10 put a further question.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I just wanted him to finish his answer.
12 MR. MENON: Okay. I have no further questions for this witness.
13 I would just ask this document be tendered into evidence, Your
14 Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
16 please be given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 480.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: 480. Thank you very much, madam.
19 Any questions, Judge?
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Sir, let us go back for a moment
22 to the prisoners that you saw during your visit in Livade.
23 You told us yesterday that you received, if I understood you
24 correctly, a telephone call, so at any rate you did receive information to
25 the effect that there were prisoners of war there, and now I would like to
Page 3842
1 know who provided you with this information.
2 A. I cannot recall at this time who it was that gave me this
3 information, or rather I don't remember who gave me the task or, rather,
4 who gave me the information, but that was sufficient for me to go to
5 Zavidovici and to meet the person that I was supposed to go there with. I
6 really don't remember who gave me this information.
7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Apart from that, do
8 you remember the wording in the notice that you received? What were you
9 told, specifically, if you remember?
10 A. Well, it's different for me to remember the specific words after
11 all this time, because we all strived to forget so many things, but I do
12 remember that it was said that there were prisoners. I don't even
13 remember -- no, I really don't remember. I don't want to speculate now. I
14 don't remember the wording. I just know that I was supposed to meet the
15 assistant commander for security.
16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And were you told there were
17 prisoners of war.
18 A. I don't remember. It may have been said, it may have not been
19 said. I really don't remember what was said and what was not said,
20 because many years have passed, 15 years almost. No, not 15, less.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] With respect to Operation Farz
22 and what you told us in your cross-examination today, on the basis of a
23 document we were able to find out that there were 400 people who were
24 killed and a large number of injured, some with serious injuries, some
25 with minor injuries. Do you remember that?
Page 3843
1 A. Yes, that's what it says in the document.
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] How did you learn, how did you
3 get to know that there were people with serious or minor injuries, if you
4 did not capture them?
5 A. Well, this is the information that I received from lower-level
6 units, and all this information was then gathered. This is unverified
7 information. This is not something that is used for analysis. It's for
8 the daily reports, and they have yet to be verified, proven and so on.
9 This is the information that was available on that date.
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But the wounded, regardless of
11 the seriousness of their injuries, did this include people who were on
12 your side of the front line.
13 A. In this report, I did not talk about our units.
14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand that these are
15 the wounded on the enemy's side. Fair enough. But in order to be able to
16 ascertain whether these people had serious or minor injuries, the units
17 that were subordinate to you, or rather units that submitted information
18 to you, should have been able to see those people in order to be able to
19 give you this information; is that not so.
20 A. Now, whether they actually saw these people or whether this was an
21 assessment based on the number of hits on a target, for the most part
22 those were the assessments for the number of people who were hors de
23 combat. On the basis of -- well, what is important is the assessment.
24 What was important for me was the assessment of the forces on the other
25 side.
Page 3844
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Hajderhodzic, your testimony has been
3 interesting. It leaves behind some unclarity, and I will try to, in a few
4 questions, to see if I can elicit some more clear information from you.
5 Now, first of all, you told us yesterday that the El
6 Mujahid Detachment was not under the 35th Division's command. If this is
7 so, then, in your view, whose command was the El Mujahid Detachment then
8 under?
9 A. It is very difficult for me to say who commanded the
10 El Mudjahedin Detachment. All I know is that the 35th Division was not
11 happy at all to see those people. These people did not get in frequent
12 with us or they were not in contact with us at all. It is difficult for
13 me to say who it was, but they suddenly showed up there. I don't know. In
14 fact, I don't know.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: What do you mean when you say that your division
16 was not happy to see these people there?
17 A. Well, we wanted to say that it was not very pleasant if there is
18 somebody else in your area of responsibility and you have no control
19 whatsoever over that somebody.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Are you aware of any attempt made by the Command
21 of the 35th Division to acquire control over these, in quotation
22 marks, "somebody"?
23 A. I don't know what my commander did, but I do know that we were all
24 very unhappy.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand that you might be unhappy for the
Page 3845
1 reason that you do not have control over these "somebody," but if they
2 were fighting on your side, any division commander would be appreciative
3 of that assistance, would he not?
4 A. Maybe yes and maybe no. Assistance is one thing, and taking over
5 some powers, it's a different thing, because the way these people behaved
6 in the town was as follows: They started mistreating people, shooting at
7 people who were swimming in the river. There was a ban prohibiting young
8 men and women, girls, from holding hands, and so on and so forth, so that
9 normal people felt revulsion when faced with them. And as for this other
10 thing, whether the commander would have been happy or not, this is always
11 a question of how much you're willing to pay for assistance, and the
12 question is whether this was assistance at all. I said then, and this is
13 what I say now, this was no assistance at all.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you pay for the assistance or did the 35th
15 Command or anybody else in the ABiH pay for the assistance?
16 A. I don't know, but we are paying the price now, I guess, not in
17 money.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let's move to my second question, which is: The
19 information you gave us that the El Mujahid Detachment was not supposed to
20 take part in the Farz operation in September 1995, do you know if the
21 El Mujahid Detachment actually took part in the Farz operation?
22 A. I don't know. And do you know why I don't know? I don't know
23 that because the time has taught me that I can only believe the things
24 that I see with my own eyes. Some things that I was sure were one way
25 turned out to be completely the opposite. I didn't see the disposition of
Page 3846
1 these people. I didn't see the place where they started from, and I
2 didn't see where they were moving, so I was very mistrustful then, as far
3 as they were concerned, and I remain mistrustful to this date.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Hajderhodzic, you were also the assistant
5 commander of Intelligence, so you were not supposed to run around in the
6 field and see for yourself what was going on. There was a system in place
7 that would provide you with ample information about what was going on
8 during combat. And I find it hard to believe, to be honest, that you did
9 not receive, from the people involved in this system of information, that
10 you did not receive information about the activities of the
11 El Mujahid Detachment, whether you trusted these people or not.
12 A. Previously, I said that I was only interested in things that were
13 on the other side of the front line. They were on this side of the front
14 line, and let me tell you something now. This was really not within my
15 purview, but I tried to understand their organisation, who they were and
16 so on, and in spite of all the efforts made in good faith, I was unable to
17 achieve any spectacular results, I was unable to learn anything. I really
18 didn't come to grasp their organisation. The only thing that I did learn
19 was that they had people who would mingle with other people and people who
20 were in some other place and that they would seen by very few. So that I
21 wanted to divide this into two segments, the secular part, so to speak,
22 that had its own goals, and the combat element, and that is why I
23 didn't -- they were a very tight community, difficult to penetrate, and
24 they were particularly mistrustful of me because my assistant was a Croat,
25 an ethnic Croat.
Page 3847
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: My question to you was if you knew that the
2 El Mujahid Detachment had taken part in the Farz operation, and I'm a bit
3 unsure about the answer to that question. Did you or did you not know
4 that they had taken part?
5 A. I knew, on the basis of combat documents.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Now, I would like to move on to my
7 third question, which relates to your knowledge about the prisoners of war
8 who had been detained by the El Mujahid Detachment.
9 We have had evidence in this case that suggests that in August, in
10 late August, 1995, a group of 11 prisoners of war were transferred from
11 the El Mujahid camp in Kamenica to the KP Dom in Zenica, that is to say,
12 to the authorities of the ABiH. And again, Mr. Hajderhodzic, I find it
13 difficult to believe that you would not in some way be involved in the
14 arrangements for that transfer. As the assistant commander of
15 Intelligence of the 35th Division, I assume that you were involved in one
16 way or another, or at least that you heard about this transfer that took
17 place in late August 1995. Can you confirm this?
18 A. Well, believe it or not, I did not take part in it and I didn't
19 know when these people were transferred to the 3rd Corps, because this was
20 not in the purview of the intelligence organ. The other people were in
21 charge of that, and of that I'm sure.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: And did you hear about the transfer?
23 A. Well, war is a whole different ball game. You can hear all kinds
24 of things. There's all kinds of information flying around. It is
25 difficult to select what is true and what is not true. I don't remember
Page 3848
1 all those stories that I heard in that period. To tell you the truth, I
2 simply can't concentrate and actually sift, from all this information,
3 what is true and what is not.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: My question was not about whether it was truthful
5 or not. My question was if you actually heard about the transfer.
6 A. I don't know. I may have heard from someone, rather, but
7 officially no one told me and I wasn't aware of the transfer. I don't
8 even believe that I heard at all, on second thought. I don't remember.
9 It's as simple as that.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: I accept your answer, although I still find it
11 difficult to believe that the transfer of 11 enemy prisoners would not
12 have caught your interest. These people might be in possession of
13 valuable information, and I'm sure that you, as assistant commander of
14 Intelligence, would have wanted to elicit information from these
15 gentlemen.
16 A. You see, given the fact that we did not often have an opportunity
17 to speak to POWs, or I didn't, because there were none, virtually, we
18 didn't have a detention unit, or a prison, or anything that would have
19 pointed me in that direction, that would have given me the option of
20 talking to someone 15 or 20 days later -- you refer to a date. I forget
21 the date. I always try to link this up with something else. I was
22 certain that if anyone went to the corps, all the information would be
23 recorded by someone from our superior command. Quite simply, I wasn't
24 aware of that. Even if I had known, I probably would have done
25 something -- perhaps I would have done something, but the truth of the
Page 3849
1 matter is I don't know.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Hajderhodzic, it is time for us to take a
3 break now, but before we do so, I'd like to put a question to you, and
4 then you can have the break to think about the answer.
5 I also wish to remind you again, as the Presiding Judge has done,
6 that you took a declaration yesterday and today that you would speak the
7 truth, and the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And I think it is
8 important for you to seek to establish the truth at this trial.
9 Let's have a break and let's meet at 12.30.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Court adjourned.
11 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.34 p.m.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Judge.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Hajderhodzic, I realised only when I came out
15 of the courtroom that I forgot to put the question to you that I wanted
16 before the break. I apologise for that, but I don't expect your answer to
17 be any different.
18 The question that I have is this: Were you at any time
19 instructed, ordered, or suggested not to include information on the
20 El Mujahid Detachment or activities of other Mujahedin groups in your
21 reports?
22 A. No, I was never instructed to do that.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Hajderhodzic, I thought I heard you say, and I
25 would like to confirm with you, that you didn't know that the
Page 3850
1 El Mudjahedin Detachment had been subordinated to the 35th Division. Am I
2 right?
3 A. Yes, you are right.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: In fact, you didn't know that the
5 El Mudjahedin Detachment had been a unit of the ARBiH?
6 A. I didn't know that, either.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: In fact, you also did not know the establishment of
8 the El Mudjahedin Detachment, you didn't know how large they were?
9 A. You see, all these questions are connected, and my answers are
10 much the same. As for the El Mudjahedin Detachment --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just say "yes," "no," or, "I don't know."
12 I'm asking you these questions because I'm a bit puzzled by some
13 of the answers you gave today, and here's what puzzles me: How do you
14 know that the group belonging to Abu Zubeir Al Halili was not part of
15 Mujahedin, a Mujahedin detachment?
16 A. You see, I heard of such units that were around the area, but I
17 never saw a written document or anything like that to base this belief on.
18 It is something that people were saying and something I heard, that there
19 was some units there or something. Believe me, I don't even know that the
20 El Mujahedin unit was established, or under whose command, or where it
21 was. I never saw them all lined up for review. I never saw the unit in
22 its entirety. I never had a chance to judge the structure of its command
23 or anything like that.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Hajderhodzic, I'm going to ask you once more to
25 please listen to the question and answer the question, and the question
Page 3851
1 only. I'm asking you a very simple question, and don't repeat things that
2 you've already told me.
3 My question to you was: How do you know that the group belonging
4 to Abu Zubeir Al Halili was not part of the Mujahedin, the El Mudjahedin
5 Detachment? You don't know anything about the El Mudjahedin Detachment,
6 you don't know who are the members of the El Mudjahedin Detachment. I
7 want to know how you come to the conclusion that the group belonging to
8 Abu Zubeir has nothing to do with El Mudjahedin Detachment.
9 A. I can't say for sure, but in certain constellations there is talk
10 of the El Mudjahedin Detachment, and in certain other constellations there
11 is talk of these other guys. These are two totally separate groups, or at
12 least that's how the story went.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: So when you said it as a fact this afternoon or
14 this morning, you were really not telling something that you knew for a
15 fact?
16 A. You see, in situations like these, facts, no.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you also don't know whether the Hamdala was
18 part of the El Mudjahedin Detachment, do you know?
19 A. Well, no, I assume not, but, no, I don't.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: See, let me warn you once again. We would like to
21 extract from you facts, not assumptions. When you assume, at least do say
22 that's your assumption. Then we know how to handle that.
23 A. Fine.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, let me turn to the topic of the prisoners of
25 war.
Page 3852
1 You also said this morning that you wrote a report to the 3rd
2 Corps about prisoners of war. You remember that?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you were shown a whole lot of reports that were
5 written, signed by you, in which the prisoners of war were not mentioned.
6 You remember that?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, you have now been shown Exhibit 480, which
9 was -- can we put Exhibit 480 on the screen, please.
10 Do you see that report?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now this -- earlier today, when you were being
13 examined by the Prosecutor, he asked you the question -- this question
14 starts at line 25 of page 54:
15 "Sir, is this the information on prisoners of war that you had,
16 that you received during the course of the Farz operation, and to which
17 you have referred to during your testimony?"
18 And your answer was: "Yes, it was based on this document that I
19 believe that --"
20 And then: "Do you want me to clarify this?"
21 What I want to confirm with you is, when you say, "Yes, it was
22 based on this document," do you now remember this document? Have you seen
23 this document before today?
24 A. During the day? Yes, I remember. Yes, I remember that I saw it
25 before today.
Page 3853
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where did you see it and when was that?
2 A. I no longer know where I saw this or that, but I do believe that I
3 saw this report in Sarajevo as well.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me ask you this question, then: When you said
5 to the Defence counsel that you had written a report to the 3rd Corps
6 about prisoners of war, was that report based on this document?
7 A. You see, you're asking me to answer "yes" or "no" --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And there's a third alternative. If you don't
9 know, then you say you don't know, and then we don't go further, we don't
10 waste time on it. You either say "yes" or "no" or, "I don't know," or, "I
11 can't remember."
12 A. I can't remember and I don't know.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And if you can't remember, then that's the end of
14 my questions. I can't take my questions any further.
15 Thank you very much.
16 Any questions arising from the questions from the Bench?
17 Mr. Menon.
18 MR. MENON: Well, there's one question, and there may be a
19 follow-up question to that, Your Honour.
20 Re-examination by Mr. Menon:
21 Q. Sir, in response to a question that His Honour Judge Harhoff had
22 put to you, you answered,"The only thing that I" -- and this is in
23 relation to the El Mudjahedin Detachment, and it appears, actually, the
24 witness's answer begins at -- the relevant portion of the witness's answer
25 begins at page 62, line 21 of the transcript from today. And this is the
Page 3854
1 relevant portion of your answer, Mr. Hajderhodzic, and it relates to the
2 El Mudjahedin Detachment:
3 "The only thing that I did learn was that they had people who
4 would mingle with other people."
5 Now, which people from the El Mudjahedin Detachment are you
6 referring to when you say "They had people who would mingle with other
7 people"?
8 A. I can't tell you a single name, but those were people I could see
9 in the street and around the area, those who came into contact with
10 civilians and soldiers in the Zavidovici area.
11 MR. MENON: No further questions, Your Honour. Thank you very
12 much.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Menon.
14 Madam Vidovic.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I do have
16 a question.
17 Further cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:
18 Q. Witness, His Honour, Harhoff, asked you about the Mujahedin, and
19 on page 61, lines 34 and 35, you describe their behaviour, so I want you
20 to clarify something for the benefit of the record.
21 You said they started mistreating people, and then the record
22 reflected "They fired at people who were swimming." What I understood you
23 to be saying is fired shots above the heads of those swimming in the
24 river.
25 A. Yes, they fired shots into the air to scare those people off, to
Page 3855
1 not take off their clothes and not get out of the river without their
2 clothes on.
3 Q. It is true, isn't it, that the incidents that they were causing
4 and that you heard about, and I mean the Mujahedin, had to do with their
5 different views on religion and life, different from those held by the
6 local Muslims; would I be right in stating that?
7 A. Yes, you're right.
8 Q. You never heard that those people were indeed killing anyone at
9 all, POWs included, before you were in touch with them in July?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You didn't know anything like that?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You didn't know that they were mistreating POWs?
14 A. No, I knew nothing about that either.
15 Q. Thank you. I will now go back to one of the last questions asked
16 by His Honour, the Presiding Judge Moloto.
17 You were asked about a group of these Mujahedin. The Judge asked
18 you this:
19 "How do you know that Abu Zubeir and the Hamdala were not part of
20 the El Mudjahedin Detachment?"
21 And I'm asking you this: Based on your evidence, the evidence
22 that you gave today about not knowing anything about the El Mujahid, how
23 on earth could you possibly know this at all? Do you see my suggestion?
24 Do you agree?
25 A. Yes, I agree.
Page 3856
1 Q. How could you have known otherwise that they were members of the
2 El Mudjahedin Detachment, for example?
3 A. I have no idea. What I do know is that different names were used
4 and that's all I can base my judgement on, nothing else.
5 Q. Please, Witness, please, is it true that among the people of
6 Zavidovici, in the area there were stories, rumours, circulating at the
7 time about various groups of Arabs?
8 A. Yes, that is true.
9 Q. Those Arabs in the area were not a single body, they weren't
10 unified; there were several different scattered groups, separate groups;
11 is that right?
12 A. Yes, that's what the rumours were about. Those are stories. I
13 have no documents to show for this and so that is why I expressed the
14 reservations that I did.
15 Q. So you heard the stories?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You will agree that today during your testimony and yesterday on
18 several occasions, you did say you heard stories; right?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. Stories, stories, rumours, not just about this being a story or a
21 rumour?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down, slow down.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. While testifying yesterday and today, you mentioned stories. This
25 is not the only story that you testified to; right?
Page 3857
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. No further
3 questions.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 Sir, that brings us to the end of your testimony. Thank you very
6 much for coming to testify. You are now excused. You may stand down.
7 Travel well back home.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the Chamber move into private session,
11 please.
12 [Private session]
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 3858
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Will you please make the declaration then, sir.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
Page 3859
1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 WITNESS: SEJFULAH MRKALJEVIC
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 Mr. Mundis.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Examination by Mr. Mundis:
Page 3860
1 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. For the record, sir, can you please state your full name, and
4 spell both your first and last name.
5 A. Sejfulah Mrkaljevic, S-E-J-F-U-L-A-H, M-R-K-A-L-J-E-V-I-C.
6 Q. And, sir, for the record, can you please provide your date of
7 birth and place of birth?
8 A. I was born on the 2nd of September, 1959, in Kotorsko, the
9 municipality of Doboj, Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
10 Q. Mr. Mrkaljevic, can you tell the Trial Chamber how you were
11 employed, where you were employed, at the time the war in Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina commenced?
13 A. Up until the time when the war started in Bosnia and Herzegovina
14 in April 1992, I had a job in the coal mine in Zenica.
15 Q. Did you remain in that job at the coal mine, sir, once the war
16 began in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
17 A. When the war started in Bosnia and Herzegovina, I left my job in
18 the Zenica coal mine and I volunteered to join the regular units of the BH
19 Army because I wanted to take part in defending Bosnia and Herzegovina.
20 Q. Mr. Mrkaljevic, could you please briefly tell the Trial Chamber
21 what units of the BH Army you were assigned to from the time you joined
22 the BH Army until you left the BH Army?
23 A. At the beginning, that's in April 1992, I reported to the Zenica
24 Municipal Staff, the Defence Staff in Zenica.
25 Q. And what, sir, were your duties at the Zenica Municipal Staff, and
Page 3861
1 how long did you remain in that position?
2 A. In the Municipal Defence Staff in Zenica, I was appointed the
3 deputy commander of the Counter-Sabotage Platoon, and I was at that post
4 until mid-May 1992.
5 Q. And what post, if any, did you assume in mid-May 1992?
6 A. In accordance with the orders of my superiors in the Municipal
7 Defence Staff in Zenica, I was transferred to the 1st Zenica Brigade of
8 the Territorial Defence, or rather the 1st Zenica Brigade of the Army of
9 Bosnia and Herzegovina. I was the deputy battalion commander.
10 Q. And, sir, which battalion of the 1st Zenica Brigade were you the
11 deputy battalion commander?
12 A. When I came to the 1st Zenica Brigade of the BH Army, I was the
13 deputy commander -- I was appointed the deputy commander of the 1st
14 Battalion of the 1st Zenica Brigade.
15 Q. And how long, sir, did you remain in that position as the deputy
16 commander of the 1st Battalion of the 1st Zenica Brigade?
17 A. I was the deputy commander of the 1st Battalion of the 1st Zenica
18 Brigade of the BH Army for a short period of time, until sometime in early
19 June 1992.
20 Q. And, sir, in early June 1992, which unit, if any, did you join?
21 A. I was the commander of the 1st Battalion of the 1st Zenica
22 Brigade.
23 Q. And how long did you remain in that position, sir?
24 A. I was the commander of the 1st Battalion of the 1st Zenica Brigade
25 until I was seriously wounded, which was on the 14th of January, 1993.
Page 3862
1 Q. Following this serious wounding that you received, did you rejoin
2 any unit of the BH Army, and if so, which unit?
3 A. After I was wounded, I received treatment until the end of
4 February, early March, 1993, and then despite the fact that I was not
5 completely well, I returned to the Command of the 1st Zenica Brigade, or
6 rather while I was away, the brigade was transformed in accordance with
7 the restructuring of the BH Army, and it became the 303rd Mountain
8 Brigade.
9 Q. And for purposes of clarification, sir, did you rejoin or did you
10 join the 303rd Mountain Brigade upon your return from medical treatment?
11 A. Yes, I rejoined them. As I said, I was not completely well, but I
12 came back in order to help my colleagues, my fellow fighters.
13 Q. And, sir, when you rejoined the 303rd Mountain Brigade, what were
14 your responsibilities and duties?
15 A. Upon my arrival in the Command of the 303rd Mountain Brigade, the
16 brigade commander, Mr. Suad Hasanovic assigned me in view of my condition
17 in the operation and training organ of the Brigade Staff.
18 Q. And how long, Mr. Mrkaljevic, did you remain with the 303rd
19 Mountain Brigade?
20 A. I was in the operations and training organ of the 303rd Mountain
21 Brigade until mid-May 1993.
22 Q. And, sir, what unit, if any, did you join in mid-May 1993?
23 A. In accordance with the instructions and the orders of my
24 superiors, in the first half of May 1993 I was transferred to the Command
25 of the 3rd Corps of the BH Army.
Page 3863
1 Q. And what were your responsibilities upon being assigned to the 3rd
2 Corps of the BH Army in mid-May 1993?
3 A. In mid-May 1993, I was appointed to the intelligence organ of the
4 3rd Corps Command. At first, my duties involved intelligence processing.
5 That period lasted a month and a half. And after that, I did the
6 analytical processing of intelligence that was coming in, into the
7 intelligence organ or, rather, the Intelligence Department of the 3rd
8 Corps Command.
9 Q. Mr. Mrkaljevic, after joining the intelligence organ of the 3rd
10 Corps in mid-May 1993, how long did you remain with the 3rd Corps
11 intelligence organ?
12 A. I was in the intelligence organ of the 3rd Corps until the 3rd
13 Corps was disbanded, but there was a short break, a month and a half.
14 That was the period while I was appointed to the Command of the 319th
15 Mountain Brigade in Zepce. So that was in November and until mid-December
16 1993.
17 Q. Just so we're clear, sir, other than this break from November
18 until mid-December 1993, when you were with the 319th Mountain Brigade,
19 other than that time period, sir, you were with the 3rd Corps intelligence
20 organ from mid-May 1993 until the end of the war; is that right?
21 A. Yes. Except for that period, I spent the entire war until the 3rd
22 Corps was disbanded. I was the head of the analysis section in the
23 Intelligence Department of the 3rd Corps Command.
24 Q. I'd like to turn your attention, sir, to the issue of ranks in the
25 ABiH.
Page 3864
1 When you first joined the 3rd Corps, sir, did you hold any type of
2 military rank?
3 A. When I joined the 3rd Corps, or in fact at the moment when I
4 joined the ranks of the regular Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the
5 former Yugoslav People's Army, in 1977 -- no, I apologise. That was in
6 1978, and 1979 I graduated from the reserve officers school that was in
7 Zadar. I was in air defence, rocket and artillery units branch.
8 When I left the Yugoslav People's Army, the former Yugoslav
9 People's Army, I was given the rank of a reserve second lieutenant. I was
10 a junior officer in the former Yugoslav People's Army. And after that --
11 and all the way up to the period when the aggression against Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina started in 1992, I was promoted to the rank of a reserve
13 lieutenant in the former Yugoslav People's Army.
14 In accordance with the procedures stipulated by law that defined
15 the reserve force of the former Yugoslav People's Army in the former
16 Socialist Federated Republic of Yugoslavia, I could not have been given a
17 higher rank because I did not have enough exercises to my name. I didn't
18 participate in a sufficient number of exercises in my branch of service.
19 Q. Sorry to interrupt. When you joined the BH Army, did that army
20 have any ranks?
21 A. No. At first, there were no ranks. There were just posts and
22 duties.
23 Q. Did there come a time, sir, when ranks were introduced?
24 A. Ranks were introduced, and the first conference of ranks was
25 carried out in August 1994. In fact, that is when I received a rank,
Page 3865
1 myself.
2 Q. And, sir, what rank did you receive in August 1994?
3 A. I was promoted to the rank of a captain of the Army of Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina.
5 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown the
6 document marked P01771. P01771. And we'll start by taking a look at the
7 first page of that document.
8 Q. Mr. Mrkaljevic, do you see the document on the screen in front of
9 you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this document is?
12 A. This is a document originating from the Supreme Command Staff of
13 the Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, listing people
14 who were promoted to certain ranks, or rather this is a proposal on the
15 part of the Supreme Command of the BH Armed Forces sent to the Presidency
16 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina for the people whose names are
17 listed below to be promoted to certain ranks in accordance with the law.
18 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask, with the assistance of the Registrar,
19 that we go to page 3 in Bosnian and page 8 in English.
20 Q. Sir, do you see where it says: "D, Rank of Captain"?
21 A. Yes. Item D, yes. Item D in this document, I can see my name on
22 this list and also the duty I had in the 3rd Corps Command.
23 Q. Just so we're all clear, Mr. Mrkaljevic, can you tell us where, in
24 relation to the subheading "D, Rank of Captain," your name appears?
25 A. My name is the first name on this list under item D.
Page 3866
1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, sir. I would ask this document be
2 admitted into evidence, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
4 please be given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number 570.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown the
8 document previously marked as P01779. P01779. And, again, we'll start
9 with the first page of the document.
10 Q. Mr. Mrkaljevic, do you see the document on the screen in front of
11 you, sir?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And can you tell us what this document is, please?
14 A. This is a decision of the Presidency, listing the people who were
15 promoted, as of the date of this decision, to the ranks as per the
16 proposal submitted by the General Staff of the BH Army.
17 MR. MUNDIS: And can we please now, with the assistance of the
18 Registrar, please go to page 6 in the Bosnian version and page 10 in the
19 English version.
20 Q. And I draw your attention, sir, to the subheading "D" to the rank
21 of captain.
22 A. Under item D, the "Rank of Captain," the fifth entry contains my
23 full name and my duty in the 3rd Corps Command. That's on this list.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, sir. The Prosecution would ask this
25 document be admitted into evidence, please.
Page 3867
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
2 please be given an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number 571.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the date of this document?
5 MR. MUNDIS:
6 Q. Sir, do you see the date on this document?
7 A. The date on this document is the 5th of August, 1994, and we also
8 have the reference number listed here.
9 Q. Now, Mr. Mrkaljevic, I'd like to turn your attention to the
10 midsummer of 1995, that is, the period in June/July 1995. What position
11 within the 3rd Corps intelligence organ were you holding at that point in
12 time?
13 A. At that time, I was the chief of the analysis section in the
14 Intelligence Department of the 3rd Corps.
15 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber, sir, how many people were in
16 the intelligence organ of the 3rd Corps at that point in time, that is,
17 the summer of 1995?
18 A. In the summer of 1995, there were somewhere between 12 and 14
19 personnel on various jobs in the Intelligence Department in the 3rd Corps.
20 Q. And, sir, who was in charge of the Intelligence Department in the
21 3rd Corps at that time, summer 1995?
22 A. At that time in 1995, the assistant commander for Intelligence in
23 the 3rd Corps Command was Mr. Edin Husic.
24 Q. You told us, Mr. Mrkaljevic, that you were the head of the
25 analysis section. How many people, in the summer of 1995, were in the 3rd
Page 3868
1 Corps Intelligence Department analysis section?
2 A. In the summer of 1995, the analysis section of the Intelligence
3 Department of the 3rd Corps contained two officers, apart from myself.
4 Q. How was the Intelligence Department of the 3rd Corps structured in
5 the summer of 1995?
6 A. In the summer of 1995, the 3rd Corps Intelligence Department had
7 its subsections, the subsection for analysis and intelligence processing,
8 intelligence planning of reconnaissance activities, the section for
9 relations and cooperation with the representatives of foreign armies and
10 international organisations in the 3rd Corps area, a section for
11 electronic reconnaissance and surveillance, so that these four sections
12 covered the entire range of activities of the 3rd Corps Command
13 Intelligence Department, and the section for electronic reconnaissance and
14 surveillance had another subsection. It was called "Special Operations."
15 Q. Can you please explain or briefly explain the section for
16 relations and cooperation with the representatives of foreign armies and
17 international organisations? Can you tell us what that -- what that's all
18 about?
19 A. It was a service. Three people worked there. And all the
20 representatives of the foreign armies and international organisations who
21 were present in the area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps were not
22 supposed to go directly to the 3rd Corps Command, lest they should waste
23 time. They contacted this section.
24 Q. Can you perhaps explain who these foreign armies were and what
25 they were doing in the area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps?
Page 3869
1 A. The term "foreign armies" referred to the SFOR troops, the
2 multinational SFOR troops, and in the area of responsibility of the 3rd
3 Corps, this referred to all those elements of SFOR present there, all the
4 issues that they wanted to raise, everything that they needed. They talked
5 to the section for relations with foreign armies and international
6 organisations, and at the same time this section acted as a liaison office
7 with the Command of the 3rd Corps.
8 Q. Mr. Mrkaljevic, other than your assignment as head of the analysis
9 section of the 3rd Corps Intelligence Department, did you have any other
10 duties or responsibilities during the summer of 1995?
11 A. In addition to my duties as the chief of the analysis section, I
12 was the deputy assistant commander for Intelligence in the 3rd Corps
13 Command in the absence of Mr. Edin Husic.
14 Q. Can you briefly tell the Trial Chamber, sir, how the Intelligence
15 Department of the 3rd Corps functioned, in terms of reporting
16 requirements? To whom did Mr. Husic or, in his absence, you, as his
17 deputy assistant commander, report?
18 A. In the Intelligence Department of the 3rd Corps Command, there
19 were two chains of command. In technical and professional terms, there
20 was the vertical reporting line to the Intelligence Administration of the
21 Joint Command of the Armed Forces or the General Staff of the Army of
22 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and horizontally the reporting line went to the
23 commander of the 3rd Corps Command.
24 Q. And can you tell us, Mr. Mrkaljevic, if you know, when you
25 say "vertical reporting line to the Intelligence Administration of the
Page 3870
1 Joint Command of the Armed Forces or the General Staff of the Army of
2 Bosnia and Herzegovina," to whom was the 3rd Corps sending its reports,
3 the 3rd Corps Intelligence Department sending its reports?
4 A. The reports that were drafted in the Intelligence Department of
5 the 3rd Corps Command were sent to the Intelligence Administration of the
6 BH Army General Staff.
7 Q. And where was that Intelligence Administration of the BH Army
8 General Staff located?
9 A. The Intelligence Administration of the BH Army General Staff was
10 in Sarajevo, and in Kakanj, in a hotel there. There was always a certain
11 number of officers from the Intelligence Administration who were there in
12 order to be able to provide assistance, some kind of a rapid intervention
13 unit to assist any of the intelligence organs in the 3rd Corps.
14 Q. And would the reports from the intelligence organ or Intelligence
15 Department of the 3rd Corps go to Sarajevo, or Kakanj, or both?
16 A. They went mostly to Sarajevo, and when needed -- or rather when
17 the superior officer issued an order to that effect, they went to Kakanj
18 too.
19 Q. Can you tell us, sir, if you know, who was the head of the
20 Intelligence Administration of the BH Army General Staff?
21 A. The chief of the Intelligence Administration in the BH Army
22 General Staff was the late Mr. Mustafa Hajrulahovic Talijan. He was a
23 general of the BH Army.
24 Q. And where was General Mustafa Hajrulahovic Talijan located?
25 A. His headquarters were in Sarajevo. I think that this was the
Page 3871
1 building of the Sarajevo Novi Grad District Staff.
2 Q. And do you know, sir, which members of the BH Army General Staff
3 Intelligence Administration were located in Kakanj?
4 A. I couldn't tell you the exact names of the people who were in
5 Kakanj, but most -- for the most part, those would be officers from the
6 Intelligence Administration, and they were rotated in shifts.
7 Q. Now, Mr. Mrkaljevic, can you tell us a little bit about how the
8 3rd Corps Intelligence Department received information or reports from
9 subordinate or lower-level 3rd Corps units?
10 A. From the lower-level units in the 3rd Corps, the reports came in
11 in accordance with the developments in the field, from the assistant
12 commanders for Intelligence at the level of divisions, and assistant
13 commanders for Intelligence at brigade level.
14 Q. Mr. Mrkaljevic, when you say "assistant commanders for
15 Intelligence at the level of divisions," which divisions are we talking
16 about or are you talking about?
17 A. In the summer of 1995, the 3rd Corps Command had as its element
18 the 35th Division in Zavidovici and the 37th Division in Tesanj.
19 Q. And, sir, who were the assistant commanders for Intelligence in
20 those two divisions?
21 A. In this time period, the assistant commander in the 35th Division
22 was Mr. Izudin Hajderhodzic, and in the 37th Division in Tesanj, I can't
23 recall the name, but I do know that for a brief period of time in 1995,
24 the commander for Intelligence in the 37th Division, there were three
25 people who actually were appointed to that post over a very brief period
Page 3872
1 of time.
2 Q. And, sir, you also told us, as reflected on lines 3 and 4 of page
3 88, that you received reports from assistant commanders for Intelligence
4 at brigade level. Can you tell us which brigades were supplying reports
5 to the 3rd Corps Intelligence Department?
6 A. The 7th Muslim Brigade, the 314th, the 313th and the 303rd
7 Mountain Brigade.
8 Q. Sir, these four brigades that you've just mentioned, the 7th,
9 314th, 330th and 303rd, why did they report directly to the 3rd Corps
10 Intelligence Department?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it 330th or 313th?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 330 Light Infantry Brigade.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 A. They reported directly to the Command, the Command of the
15 Intelligence Department of the 3rd Corps whenever they were not
16 resubordinated to one of the divisions.
17 Q. Can you briefly explain, Mr. Mrkaljevic, what the function of the
18 analysis section of the Intelligence Department of the 3rd Corps was?
19 A. Within the Intelligence Department of the 3rd Corps Command, the
20 analysis section was the section that analytically processed all incoming
21 information, all intelligence-related incoming information. It would also
22 classify this information and cross-reference it to any other incoming
23 information relating to other issues, information from our neighbours. In
24 keeping with that, the section produced reports, intelligence assessments,
25 and drew conclusions as to the intelligence situation that prevailed in
Page 3873
1 the area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps.
2 Q. Can you give us, sir, some examples of the types of information
3 that was incoming which your section analysed?
4 A. The intelligence section of the 3rd Corps Command was receiving
5 intelligence-related information from any available sources and from our
6 neighbours. When I say "available sources," the work and the function
7 itself of the intelligence section was based on the proper working and
8 functioning of the intelligence services belonging to armies throughout
9 the world. I must say, though, that at the time we didn't have the means
10 or the possibilities normally at the disposal of most other armies.
11 Nevertheless, the focus of our work was this: There was information
12 streaming in from observation posts, where observers were observing the
13 front end, where the clashes were occurring with the enemy. The media
14 were being monitored, too. One studied any document seized from the
15 enemy. The relevant literature was studied, whatever available. The
16 media were studied, and I mean the press. Whenever any printed media
17 could be obtained, information would be processed that was obtained from
18 the prisoners, if any. Information was processed received from displaced
19 persons, people who were driven out of areas now controlled by the Army of
20 Republika Srpska and the HVO, and this was at a time when clashes were
21 ongoing between us and them. Information was processed that we obtained
22 by using radio surveillance and communications surveillance, electronic
23 communication surveillance. All of this information was pooled into the
24 analysis sector. Whatever this incoming information happened to be,
25 urgent, high priority or not, or if it could be dealt with over the near
Page 3874
1 term, perhaps, the chief of the Intelligence Department would always be
2 the first to be informed. He was supposed to monitor the intelligence
3 situation and be familiar with it at any point in time as it pertained to
4 the area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps.
5 Once all of this information was in, this would trigger a number
6 of different activities within the analysis sector, in order to achieve
7 intelligence data that would be timely, accurate and comprehensive.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who were your neighbours from whom you also
9 received intelligence?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our neighbours at the time who made
11 their intelligence available to us were the Commands of the 2nd and 7th
12 Corps of the BH Army; rather, whenever necessary, this was also the
13 Command of the 1st Corps of the BH Army, and whenever the need arose, the
14 intelligence command of the 5th Corps of the BH Army.
15 Q. Can you tell us briefly, Mr. Mrkaljevic, the role of the
16 Intelligence Department as it relates to the work of military planning and
17 military operations?
18 A. In the analysis sector, there is the department for operative
19 activities. It would plan activities for the reconnaissance unit attached
20 to the 3rd Corps Command, the 3rd Reconnaissance and Sabotage Company, in
21 keeping with the needs and requirements dictated by the situation on the
22 ground and in compliance with any orders from the 3rd Corps Command.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. Mrkaljevic.
24 I believe this would be the appropriate time, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is, indeed. Thank you very much.
Page 3875
1 Sir, we can't finish with your evidence. We've come to the end of
2 the day today. We'll come back tomorrow at 9.00 in the same court. Okay?
3 Court adjourned until 9.00 in Courtroom II.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th of
6 October, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.
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