1 Tuesday, 16 October 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, everybody.
6 Mr. Registrar, can you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon everyone in the
9 court. This is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim
10 Delic. Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Could we have the appearances for today, starting with the
14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Good afternoon, Your Honours, counsel and everyone in and around
16 the courtroom. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Laurie Sartorio,
17 assisted by our case manager, Alma Imamovic.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 And for the Defence.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
21 afternoon to our learned friends from the Prosecutor's Office, to
22 everybody in the courtroom and around the courtroom. Vasvija Vidovic and
23 Nicholas Robson representing General Delic, and Lejla Gluhic, our legal
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 I notice the witness is not in court. Is there any issue?
2 MR. MUNDIS: There is an issue concerning protective measures for
3 an upcoming witness that my understanding was perhaps should be raised at
4 this point in time. We would be prepared to address this issue either at
5 the current moment, later -- sometime later today at the completion of
6 this witness's testimony, or perhaps tomorrow, at the Trial Chamber's
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Take your pick. When do you want to do it?
9 MR. MUNDIS: I would actually prefer to do it perhaps tomorrow
10 afternoon, early. It does concern a witness who's scheduled to appear
11 later this week. However, I'm not finished proofing this witness, and I
12 might have additional information once I'm finished meeting with the
13 witness. But I am entirely in the Trial Chamber's hands.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have the dominant status, so we are in your
16 MR. MUNDIS: I would prefer doing it, Your Honour, at the
17 completion of the current witness's testimony.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's do that.
19 MR. MUNDIS: If he could then be brought into the courtroom,
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 May the witness be brought into court.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, Witness. Please sit down.
25 Good afternoon once again. Let me just take this opportunity to
1 remind you, sir, that you are still bound by the declaration you made --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. I'll start again. I'll start again.
4 May I just remind you that you are still bound by the declaration
5 you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole
6 truth, and nothing else but the truth. Okay?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 WITNESS: ISMET ALIJA [Resumed]
9 [The witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't realise that
12 your mic was not on, there was no translation. That is what I was going
13 to say, but now that has been dealt with.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 Madam Sartorio.
16 MS. SARTORIO: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.
17 Examination by Ms. Sartorio:
18 Q. Good afternoon, sir. You may recall that at the close of
19 yesterday's session, we looked at a document, marked Exhibit Number 599,
20 and it was a monthly coordination plan for July of 1995. Do you recall
21 that last document we looked at?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Then I would like to move directly into our next document.
24 May the witness please be shown P02378. And while waiting for the
25 English first page to come up: Sir, can you identify what this document
2 A. This is also a coordination plan of the General Staff of the Army
3 of Bosnia -- of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina for the month of
4 August. It is identical to the previous plan that we looked at, but this
5 one is for August.
6 Q. And again did you participate in the preparation of this plan?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. Okay. And if you take a look at the plan just briefly, it's page
9 25 of the English and it is page 13 of the Bosnian version, and
10 particularly I want to draw your attention to where it talks about tasks
11 of the 3rd Corps Command. And then you may have to move over to the next
12 page so both the Judges and the witness can see the whole section - right-
13 of this section, and I'm just going to ask a brief question.
14 I need to see more on the English. We need to go down on the
15 B/C/S version, please. Thank you. And I think the Judges have probably
16 read that first sentence. If we could go over to the next page in
17 English, please.
18 The question I'm going to ask, sir, is: This plan doesn't --
19 doesn't to me seem very specific, so what is the purpose? Is this a
20 general plan, and then if so, what stems from this, if anything?
21 A. Let us clarify. The coordination plan concerns the life and work
22 of units and installations, their life and work. This should not be
23 confused with the coordination and concerted action plan, because these
24 are two different concepts. This is a coordination plan which concerns
25 the life and work of every individual unit and installation or institution
1 in the military, meaning that units had the obligation to submit, once a
2 month to the General Staff at the Kakanj command post, their activities
3 which they intended to implement in the following month.
4 All the administrations were likewise under the obligation to
5 submit a list of their activities, and the Operations and Planning
6 Administration, in cooperation with the other administrations, had the
7 task of consolidating all these, of putting them together, to coordinate
8 them and that is why it is called a coordination plan, a coordination
9 plan, and it is very important to understand which concerned the life and
10 work of units, as I've already explained, whereas concerted action, that
11 type of coordination is quite a different thing.
12 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
13 Your Honours, may the document be admitted in evidence.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
15 please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. The next exhibit number
17 will be number 00600.
18 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
19 Now may the witness now be shown P02324, please. Oh, see if it's
20 been admitted. That's Exhibit 532, I understand.
21 Q. Sir, are you able to identify this document for the Chamber?
22 A. This is a monthly analysis of combat readiness of the 3rd Corps
23 for July 1995.
24 Q. So would this report -- would each corps have to come up with a
25 combat readiness -- each corps that would be involved in a particular
1 operation would have to prepare a combat readiness report?
2 A. I cannot recall exactly, but in this particular instance it is
3 obvious from this document that the task was and that this is a monthly
4 analysis. Every month, the Corps had to prepare an analysis of the combat
5 readiness, but I cannot recall whether one was sent every month by them,
6 and where this monthly analysis was sent to, because you cannot see it
7 from the document. I'm not sure whether the Corps made it for its own
8 purposes or sent it to someone, dispatched it elsewhere.
9 MS. SARTORIO: Okay, thank you. We may put away this document,
10 since it's been admitted in evidence already.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. Now may the witness please be shown P02359.
13 Q. Sir, now, if you see this document, is this a document that is
14 coming from the 328th Mountain Brigade?
15 A. Yes, that's what the document says, the 328th Mountain Brigade.
16 Q. And to whom is this document addressed?
17 A. It is addressed to the 35th Division.
18 Q. And the date of the document, would you agree, it's the 3rd of
19 August, 1995?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the document -- at least the English version, and hopefully
22 the Bosnian version, says "Regular Monthly Combat Report"; is that what it
24 A. Well, it is written here "Monthly Regular Combat Report."
25 Q. So this represents one report that would be sent from a brigade to
1 a division; right?
2 A. Yes, you can put it that way.
3 MS. SARTORIO: And if I may direct the witness's attention, it's
4 page 12 of the English version and it's page -- there's no page. It's
5 number 6, enumeration 6 in the Bosnian. There's no page numbers.
6 Q. Sir, are you able to tell us what is being addressed in this
7 particular paragraph with relation to the El Mudjahedin Detachment?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which paragraph, Madam Sartorio?
9 MS. SARTORIO: In the English version on the screen, it's at the
10 bottom of the page, so we may have to move up. Okay. And in the Bosnian
11 version, it appears -- I'm not sure that's the same paragraph. I'm not
12 able to read Bosnian, but I see "El Mujahedin" there, so I thought it
13 would -- is that the same? Can someone -- yes, okay.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is not the same.
15 MS. SARTORIO: I'm looking for that paragraph in the Bosnian
17 Well, rather than waste time, I'll move on, Your Honours.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, that is
19 page 5 of the Bosnian version, the bottom of the page.
20 MS. SARTORIO: Well, it doesn't appear --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Isn't that the sentence --
22 MS. SARTORIO: It doesn't appear to be the same sentence.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The penultimate bulletin on the --
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The penultimate bulletin, the
25 penultimate bulletin, that's right.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, "bullet."
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
3 MS. SARTORIO: Excuse me, Your Honour?
4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] What are you looking for in
5 English, what are you looking for?
6 MS. SARTORIO: I'm looking for the same paragraph that starts
7 with: "The number of informal talks between the PK for moral guidance
8 and officers of the El Mudjahedin Detachment."
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then that should be the penultimate bullet on the
10 Bosnian --
11 MS. SARTORIO: Okay, penultimate bullet.
12 Q. Can you see that section, sir?
13 A. Yes, yes, I can.
14 Q. And can you tell us what this is addressing?
15 A. First of all, as far as I remember, we talked about this document
16 yesterday, and this concerns a report of the Brigade sent to the Division.
17 I said yesterday that I did not wish to talk about that document
18 because the same had not been sent to the Kakanj command post, so that it
19 had never reached me. But if you wish me to analyse this and if I have
20 to, I will certainly do so.
21 Q. Well, were you aware that there were some issues concerning the El
22 Mudjahedin Detachment and malfunctioning and problems that arose between
23 some soldiers of the army, other soldiers of the army, and members of the
24 El Mudjahedin Detachment? Can you address the subject matter?
25 A. I was not privy to that. That is why I said that I didn't want to
1 talk about this document, because I was not familiar with the situation.
2 I don't know what it was about.
3 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. The document may be put away, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is put away.
5 MS. SARTORIO: May the witness be shown document P03027.
6 Q. Sir, are you able to identify this document?
7 A. This is -- these are conclusions and tasks for a meeting of the
8 Corps of the General Staff of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina with corps commanders. It is conclusions and tasks emanating
10 from a meeting of the Corps of the General Staff of the Army of the
11 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina with corps commanders.
12 Q. And if you look on the second page of this document in both
13 versions, please -- okay, well, it must be -- the B/C/S is the first
14 page. I'm sorry. Where it talks about conclusions and tasks.
15 So where did this meeting take place, according to this document?
16 A. Let me just take a look. It is not stated here, but it was
17 probably held in Kakanj.
18 Q. And who would have been present at this meeting?
19 A. It says here the core staff, the core section of the General Staff
20 of the Army, and that implies the commander, the chiefs of Staff, the
21 heads of Administrations, unless one was absent, and the corps commanders.
22 MS. SARTORIO: We just noticed, Your Honour, that the translation
23 is not accurate on this document. The dates are different, and the
24 reference numbers are different. Oh, no, actually, no, that's -- it says
25 the "2nd of August."
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right.
2 MS. SARTORIO: Okay, sorry.
3 Q. Do you know how often these types of meetings occurred in Kakanj?
4 A. Not very often, because this was at so high a level, they were not
5 held very frequently.
6 Q. Can you be more specific, what "not very frequently" means?
7 A. Perhaps twice a year, but I can't be sure of that. I'm not
8 positive. I just suppose that it was two or three times a year.
9 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, we ask that this document be admitted
10 in evidence.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
12 please be given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: The document shall be given Exhibit number 00601.
14 Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Sartorio.
16 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: What is the relevance of this document?
18 MS. SARTORIO: The relevance of the document, Your Honour, is to
19 show regular and detailed reporting on the part of the units and the Corps
20 and meetings being held, especially at this critical time period.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: It should not come as a surprise to the Chamber
22 that meetings were held and reporting was made, so unless you have any
23 particular point that you wish to raise in the document, I suggest you
24 consider the risk of entering too many documents into evidence, because it
25 burdens the trial record and afterwards, when we sit back and look at all
1 these documents, it's just going to tie us down. So please be careful
2 and --
3 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- make sure we understand the reason why you put
5 these things forward to us.
6 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. I will take that into very serious
7 consideration, and I think I'm moving on now from general reports to some
8 more specific reports that do address the issues before the Court. Thank
10 May the witness be shown P02213.
11 Q. Okay. Sir, if you look on the right-hand side of the first page,
12 it appears -- did this document come to your command post in Kakanj?
13 A. This is a regular daily combat report submitted by the 3rd Corps
14 Command to the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Army of Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina at the Kakanj command post.
16 Q. Thank you. And can you identify what the subject matter -- given
17 the title of the document, what it's about?
18 A. Well, the very title says this is a regular daily combat report.
19 I think that is sufficiently clear, the way I put it.
20 Q. Thank you. And do you agree with me that the date of the document
21 is the 6th of July, 1995?
22 A. That's what it says here.
23 MS. SARTORIO: Now I'd like to direct the Chamber's and the
24 witness's attention to it's page 2 in the Bosnian and page 3 in English,
1 Under section 2, sir, where it discusses situation and activities
2 of the 3rd Corps forces, 35th Division, do you see that section?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. And can you tell us what, if anything, that section says with
5 regard to the El Mujahedin?
6 A. It is written here that in the zone of responsibility of the 35th
7 Division, units are still in a full state of combat readiness. The
8 activities of the 35th Division Command are still directed at -- it is not
9 quite clear what it says. It says here "bringing in," probably should
10 be "carrying out," carrying out preparations to continue the Proljece-95
12 During the day, senior officers from the detachment -- from the El
13 Mudjahedin Detachment spent time with the Division Staff in order to
14 coordinate tasks for the upcoming operations.
15 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
16 Your Honour, we ask that this document be admitted into evidence.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
18 please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the document shall be given Exhibit
20 Number 00602. Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 Yes, Ms. Sartorio.
23 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. May the witness please be shown
24 document P02221.
25 Q. Okay. Now, sir, I'm going to ask you, even though I know everyone
1 can read, but for the record can you please identify the date of this
2 document and to -- who was it from and to who is it addressed, or who does
3 it go to? Does it go to the General Staff at the Kakanj command post or
5 A. As you already said it, the date is 8 July 1995. It was sent by
6 the 3rd Corps Command to the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Bosnia
7 and Herzegovina, at their command post in Kakanj, and this is a regular
8 daily combat report.
9 Q. And just briefly, what is the substance of this report?
10 A. This is a regular daily combat report, and I've repeated it
11 several times today. Regular daily combat reports were sent with the
12 purpose of informing, and I believe it is very clear if something is
13 called "Regular Daily Combat Report," what is the document about.
14 Q. Thank you. But my specific question is: I would just like you to
15 state, in a sentence or two, what the substance is of this regular daily
16 report. It seems to be about some preparations between some units, so
17 could you please just state for the record what it is about?
18 A. Regular combat reports have their elements. For example, here the
19 first is the current situation and the activities of the enemy forces and
20 of the United Nations. The second item would be the current situation of
21 our forces, you know. Further on, the fourth item would be neighbours.
22 The fifth item would be the functioning of communications, the sixth would
23 be the state of morale, the seventh would be logistics, and so on and so
24 forth. These are the elements of the combat readiness that every combat
25 report has to have their elements that a combat report has to have.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down, sir. The interpreter is struggling
2 desperately to keep pace with you, you know. Please slow down.
3 MS. SARTORIO:
4 Q. Thank you for that information. Now the second -- and just -- I
5 don't want to press this because of time, but the second factor seems to
6 address joint combat operations between the El Mudjahedin Detachment and
7 the 328th Brigade. Is that correct?
8 A. I can't see it here. Could you please assist me and tell me where
9 you see it, and then I will gladly read it.
10 Q. It's under section number 2, which is on the second page in B/C/S,
11 and it is at the top of the page --
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. "Yes" what?
14 A. In the area of responsibility of the 31st [as interpreted]
15 Division, fighters from the 328th Mountain Brigade are carrying out final
16 preparations for the upcoming combat activities, together with the El
17 Mudjahedin Detachment. This was also part of the former report. We spoke
18 about that, and the same thing repeats in this combat report. The thing
19 that we saw in the previous combat report is here repeated.
20 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, sir.
21 Your Honours, may this document be admitted in evidence.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: It will, ma'am, but again let me just follow up
23 what Judge Harhoff asked a little earlier.
24 I notice that the El Mudjahedin Detachment is mentioned here, but
25 isn't it -- yes?
1 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, this witness, as you may recall, was
2 supposed to come at an earlier time where, in the logical sequence of the
3 Prosecution's case, we were discussing command and control over certain
4 aspects of the army, and these documents are relevant for that purpose. I
5 know we seem to have moved on in terms of the trial, the witnesses, but he
6 was supposed to come a few weeks ago on this issue.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: And we have heard witnesses testify on command and
9 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. Well, these are -- I will stick to documents
10 that only are -- that only mention what are -- the heart of the case is,
11 but I think it's important that we have these documents as part of the
12 record to show the joint combat, unless ...
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Sartorio, the point is made. We have
14 understood and we have accepted, and it is, I believe, not disputed by the
15 Defence that these meetings took place. Maybe it is. I don't know.
16 MS. SARTORIO: Well, it's --
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: I don't want to anticipate what the Defence's
18 position is.
19 MS. SARTORIO: Right.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: But I think we have to be careful not to make the
21 admission of evidence too repetitive.
22 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. Well, I think it's contested that --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Joint operations?
24 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, that were under the control of the ABiH, and
25 our theory is this document supports our theory of the case that they
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
3 MS. SARTORIO: Yes.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The document is admitted into evidence. May
5 it please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The document shall be given
7 Exhibit number 00603. Thank you.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 Yes, Madam Sartorio.
10 MS. SARTORIO: May I have one moment, Your Honour, to speak with
11 my colleague? Thank you.
12 Your Honours, may the witness be shown P02270.
13 Q. Sir, are you able to identify this document, please?
14 A. Yes, I am. This is another identical document, very similar to
15 the previous two. The Command of the 3rd Corps sends its regular combat
16 report to the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the BiH army at the
17 command post in Kakanj. The form is the same. I've already described the
18 form. The contents may differ a little.
19 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. And just for Your Honours, the whole
20 document has not been translated into English, but the part that I want to
21 draw the Court's attention to is. It's on the first page, and so when we
22 ask to submit it in evidence, we will have to supplement when the
23 translation is prepared.
24 I would like to direct the witness's attention to the first main
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. That's the activities of
2 the enemy, if we're talking about the first paragraph that I can see on
3 the screen right now.
4 MS. SARTORIO: One moment, Your Honour. It's on page 2 of the
5 B/C/S, please, where it says -- talking about the 35th Division. It's
6 probably 12 lines down.
7 Q. Sir, do you see that section?
8 A. Yes, I can see that.
9 Q. Can you tell us what this is referring to, this particular
10 sentence here?
11 A. It says here that the forces of the 4th Manoeuvre Battalion were
12 regrouped from the area of responsibility of the 1st Corps to the area of
13 responsibility of the 35th Division. The furlough of the units has been
14 approved around 2200 hours, and also the forces, on the strength of the
15 329th Mountain Brigade and the 5th Manoeuvre Battalion, they have also
16 been regrouped in the village of Cardak in order to link up with the El
17 Mujahid Detachment forces.
18 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
19 Your Honour, we ask that this document be admitted in evidence.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we admit the document in evidence, I
21 see the transcript says something was approved at 2200 hours. The
22 letter -- the document says at 20 hours.
23 MS. SARTORIO: Well, I think we have to go with the B/C/S version
24 and --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. Does the B/C/S version come up
1 with 2200 hours?
2 MS. SARTORIO: It says --
3 Q. Well, Witness, can you tell us the time of that what you just
4 read, the time that is indicated in your document? Is it 22 hours or 20
5 hours, sir?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's 20 hours.
7 MS. SARTORIO: I believe that's a typo in translation.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says 2000 hours on the 21st of
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's correct, and I thought the interpretation
11 had earlier said "22 hours."
12 MS. SARTORIO: It did, Your Honour. Well --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what I heard in the interpretation.
14 MS. SARTORIO:
15 Q. Sir, the translation that came across to us in court just now --
16 or a few minutes ago was "2200 hours." What did you -- what is your
17 answer? Is it 22 or 20?
18 A. It says "20" here. I probably said "20." I don't know.
19 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 And did you ask that the document be admitted?
22 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, please.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so admitted. May it please be given an
24 exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This document is given Exhibit
1 number 00604. Thank you, Your Honour.
2 MS. SARTORIO: May the witness now be shown document P02360.
3 Q. Now, sir, could you tell us the date of the document, what it is,
4 and who it's from, and who it is going to?
5 A. This is another identical document, again a regular combat report
6 similar to the previous three that we have analysed also. The 3rd Corps
7 Command sent it to the General Staff in Kakanj. Again, this is a regular
8 daily combat report just like the previous three.
9 Q. But they are all different dates; is that correct? The different
10 dates of the reports we've been looking at --
11 A. This one was sent on the 3rd of August, 1995.
12 Q. And I'd like to go to page 2 in the English, and it's also page 2
13 in the B/C/S version. It's the section under "35th Division."
14 Sir, can you tell us what this says with regard to the El
15 Mudjahedin Detachment, what this report is relaying?
16 A. It says here that:
17 "During the day, the El Mudjahedin Detachment troops were
18 withdrawn from the area of defence of the 328th Mountain Brigade in order
19 to rest and prepare for offensive combat activities, providing that 60
20 fighters have remained at the P/K," which probably stands for "the forward
21 line of defence."
22 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
23 Your Honours, we ask that this document be admitted in evidence.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
25 please be given an exhibit number.
1 MS. SARTORIO: Okay, I'd like to move on now, sir --
2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The document is given Exhibit
3 number 00605. Thank you very much.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 MS. SARTORIO: Sorry about that.
6 Q. I'd like to move on from regular daily combat reports and ask you
7 whether other types of reports that were submitted by the units or by the
8 Corps, and the Corps particularly to the forward command post in Kakanj?
9 Were there other types of reports, and if so, do you have a name for those
11 A. I'm not sure that I understood your question properly. Would you
12 please repeat it?
13 Q. Well, why don't I show you a document, and we can talk about the
15 May the witness please be shown P02261.
16 Now, sir, would you agree the date of this document is the 18th of
17 July of 1995?
18 A. This is what is stated herein.
19 Q. And the document was addressed to the forward command post in
20 Kakanj; correct?
21 A. It says "the General Staff of the BiH Army," the Kakanj command
23 Q. And this is -- is this a daily combat report or is this an
24 additional, or interim, or some other type of report?
25 A. All it says here is "Report." That's how they would call it, a
1 report. It doesn't say that it was a daily, regular, interim report.
2 Q. Okay. But if you look at the first line of this document, it --
3 at least in the English, it says: "In accordance with your orders ...,"
4 okay, so what -- can you tell us what this -- is this a regular daily
5 combat report or is this some type of, what it appears to be, a response
6 to an order?
7 A. This is a reaction to an order.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Sartorio, I guess --
9 A. Kindly --
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: I guess we would have to see the order in order to
11 be able to ascertain the correct answer to your question.
12 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour. I'll move on.
13 Q. And, sir, under number 1 of this document, can you please read
14 what that says?
15 A. Kindly show me the order number 1/825/1276 and the other order
16 dated 17 July, if at all possible.
17 Q. Well, it isn't at this time, and what I'm asking you to do is just
18 tell -- tell the Chamber what is contained in this paragraph of this
19 document that was addressed to the forward command post at which you were
21 A. I was not at the forward command post.
22 Q. Well, you were located in Kakanj, at the Operative and Planning
23 Administration; correct?
24 A. Yes, that is correct, but not at the forward command post, as you
25 put it to me before.
1 Q. Fine, sir, but these documents, the reports that would come in,
2 they would come in to the -- would they come in to the Operative and
3 Planning Department?
4 A. They did not arrive at the Administration for Organisation and
5 Planning. They arrived at the Communications Centre, which forwarded them
6 to the duty operations officer's post, the duty operations officer.
7 Q. And the duty operations officer post, was that located in the
8 Operative and Planning Department, sir?
9 A. No. The duty officers' rota was composed of all the officers that
10 were there, and those officers could come from any department or
12 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, we ask that this document be admitted
13 in evidence.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Hold on.
15 Mr. Alija, what is the significance of the line in paragraph 1
16 that says that:
17 "The time of the readiness for action will be determined by the
18 K-da Command of the detachment, since the El Mujahedin is the primary
19 leader of the upcoming task"?
20 Who is the "K-da"?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my document, it says the time of
22 the readiness for combat will be determined by the detachment command,
23 given the fact that the El Mujahedin is the unit in charge of the upcoming
24 task. Since you've asked me, I would like to answer your question. That
25 means that the El Mudjahedin Detachment will determine -- and I would
1 kindly ask you to listen to me really carefully.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Rest assured, we are listening to you very
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I continue, please?
5 Here it is confirmed, and this is a very important thing and I'm
6 very glad that you've noticed this thing, the time will be determined by
7 the El Mudjahid Detachment, which means that they will do what they have
8 to do whenever they want to do it, which is a confirmation of the fact
9 that this was a very specific unit which, in my knowledge and according to
10 my information, was not within the system of control and command. They
11 were a closed unit, and they stood for themselves. They were
12 independent. They were very difficult to reach or receive information
13 about their activities. They made their own decisions.
14 Most probably, Your Honours, I believe that you know that they had
15 their own way of decision-making. That term is "shura," is something like
16 a council of sorts. And if they decided to do something, they did it.
17 And if they decided not to do, they didn't do it, and they would not take
18 anybody's orders. That's why there's a sentence here, just one sentence,
19 that is very few words for something that could have been put in many more
20 words, and the essence of the matter is that they will do things the way
21 they want to do them. This is what I wanted to tell you.
22 I would kindly ask you, since I've already discussed this
23 document, I would kindly ask you to give me the other document that is
24 referred to herein, because I was probably the author of that other
25 document and I would very much like to see it. The number is 1825-1276.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. I think it's best that we leave the
2 examination-in-chief to the Prosecution. But my question to you was
3 really: What does it mean, that the time of readiness for action will be
4 determined by, I now understand, the Command of the El Mudjahid
5 Detachment, because apparently that detachment is the primary leader of
6 the upcoming task. That was my question, because it could be understood
7 to mean that the leading force in this upcoming task, whatever that is,
8 has been left in the hands of the El Mujahid Detachment. Is that a
9 correct reading of the paragraph?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Partly, not wholly. This is for
11 this particular task, but we cannot apply that across the board, but we
12 cannot do it before we see other documents. That's why I would kindly ask
13 you to give me this other document. We cannot go into any further
14 discussions without it.
15 More specifically, this is just one task. The El Mujahid is not a
16 leading task or the leading force in the 35th Division. The leading force
17 was the Army of -- the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Sir, you can't draw conclusions.
19 You need to stick to facts. You are not in a position whereby you can
20 interpret text or establish links between various documents. This is our
21 role, not yours. Leave it to us.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I was asked a question, and I'm
23 duty-bound to answer the question. The Judge asked me something, and I
24 have to answer, and that's what I'm doing, you know. And I would kindly
25 ask you to allow me to answer the question that the Judge has just put to
1 me. And when I do that --
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Well, yes, but you haven't only
3 answered the question the Judge asked you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did answer. I said that it was
5 not the leading force. The Judge asked me whether they were the leading
6 force. I said that they were not, which means I've answered the
7 question. And I'm fully prepared to answer your further questions.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will appreciate you answering our questions, but
9 also not to start giving us a whole history, which we are not asking for.
10 You said quite a lot when you were first asked about this point which I
11 thought went far beyond giving an explanation of that sentence. But the
12 sentence is quite clear enough. We can see for ourselves what it says. I
13 think the important thing was for you just to explain what "K-da" meant,
14 and that's it.
15 But anyway, that's fine, thank you so much.
16 Judge, are you done?
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, not quite, because I still fail to
18 understand fully the meaning of the sentence here in this report, which
19 says that the El Mujahedin is the primary leader of the upcoming task, and
20 this fact is adduced to explain why the time of readiness is also left
21 with the Command of the El Mujahedin Detachment. Your explanation was
22 that this might well be the case for this particular task, that the El
23 Mujahid Detachment had been given the leadership of that upcoming task,
24 but you were also, in your testimony, apparently keen to underline that
25 this was something exceptional, this was not an overall or frequent
1 situation, and that is my question to you, then.
2 Do you know if the El Mujahid Detachment, in this particular task,
3 was appointed the primary leader, and do you know if that occurred
4 frequently in other tasks?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 In respect of this particular task, it is stated here that the El
7 Mudjahedin Detachment is the principal protagonist, the spearhead of this
8 particular mission, and therefore it was the one who would decide the time
9 of readiness for starting the mission. And as far as I know, to the
10 extent of my military knowledge and my experience and the places that I've
11 been to and seen, I believe that the El Mujahid Detachment was not
12 assigned tasks of this kind very often.
13 I should like to ask you again kindly to let me give you a
14 complete answer to this question --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry. Just a second, sir.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're not letting me testify. I
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I've been asked to say if this was so in this case,
19 the El Mudjahedin Detachment, was it asked oftentimes to lead tasks like
20 this? Just to say, "yes, it was," or, "no, it wasn't." You don't have to
21 give a long story.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that. I don't know
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But by your leave, I should like to
1 explain more.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: I think we should put it back to the Prosecution.
3 Thank you very much, sir.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, on my exhibit list was this
6 particular order. I wasn't going to introduce it because it's already
7 been marked as an exhibit, but I will for the sake of -- for completion.
8 It's Exhibit 496, and it was on my list to the Defence as P02244. Yes.
9 May the document be shown to --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we do that, can we just give an exhibit
11 number to the previous document.
12 Document 2261 is admitted into evidence. May it please be given
13 an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The Exhibit number is 00606.
15 Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
17 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Now may the witness be shown Exhibit 496.
19 Now, the document in Bosnian is one page, but the Judges may --
20 can we go to the second page, to the bottom. Second page, please. We can
21 see who initialled.
22 Q. Sir, did you draft this document?
23 A. I did. I wrote this document. That is why I asked for it to be
24 shown here.
25 Q. And those are your initials, "AI"?
1 A. Yes, they are, "AI," that's right.
2 MS. SARTORIO: Now if we could go back to the front page of the
3 document, and as I've said, this document has already been admitted into
5 Q. But would you like to comment on this particular document in
6 relation to the last document?
7 A. Yes, I would certainly like to comment on it.
8 This is a document that was created in connection with a
9 newly-arisen situation in Zepa and Srebrenica; namely, when at that
10 particular time period in Zepa and Srebrenica, thousands of people were
11 killed, slaughtered, burned out. A genocide, namely, had been committed
12 against my people.
13 The Dutch Battalion, which was there and which was in charge of
14 protecting those people, failed to do so. The United Nations, whose task
15 it was to do that, also failed to do it. So we, in the General Staff,
16 undertook measures and issued orders that at the entire front, at the
17 entire theatre of war, there should be combat operations carried out in
18 order to facilitate the situation for the people and to save the people,
19 because those who -- whose obligation it had been to save the people
20 didn't do it. They let them be killed and slaughtered, thousands of
22 It is very hard for me to speak about this document here in
23 Holland, because it was their people who had been in charge of saving the
24 people, but they let the aggressor kill them, liquidate them and slaughter
25 them, burn them out and burn their houses, and commit the more serious
1 genocide after the Second World War in Europe and beyond. That is how
2 this document was created.
3 Q. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you, because this is a forum where I
4 ask a question and you provide an answer, and you have indicated your
5 comments on this document.
6 But let me ask you this: What did you mean by "entire front," and
7 what did you mean by "entire theatre of war"? What does that mean?
8 A. That means not only in the Srebrenica and Zepa area, but
9 throughout the battle front where there were units of the Army of Bosnia
10 and Herzegovina, that in view of the fact that the aggressor's forces in
11 the particular time period had concentrated their forces in the direction
12 of Zepa and Srebrenica and had, therefore, weakened their front which they
13 were holding in other parts of the battlefield, so it was our objective to
14 undertake active operations throughout the battle front in order to have
15 those forces return to their previous positions and alleviate the burden
16 on the part of the battle front which included Srebrenica and Zepa.
17 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
18 May this document be put away.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is put away now.
20 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, I think this would be a good time to
21 take a break, and I will decide at that point I will limit my -- the
22 remaining documents, but I need to quickly go through them to pick out the
23 most relevant ones.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.
25 Court adjourned.
1 --- Recess taken at 3.28 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.
4 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honours. I have four more
6 May the witness please be shown P01869. And while we're waiting
7 for the English -- oh, here it is.
8 Q. Sir, can you tell us if -- can you identify this document for us,
9 where it's coming from?
10 A. This is a document of the Staff of the Supreme Command of the
11 Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, written at the
12 Kakanj command post, dated the 14th of November, 1994, and it concerns
13 concerted action, coordinated action, in organising, preparing, and there
14 are some letters missing here, you know, so -- in the document that I'm
15 reading. And it is addressed to the Commander of the 3rd Corps.
16 MS. SARTORIO: And may we go to the second page in English.
17 Q. And, sir, can you tell us who signed this document?
18 A. This document is signed by General Enver Hadzihasanovic.
19 Q. On behalf of General Delic; is that it? Is that what that --
20 A. Yes, it does say "for."
21 Q. And the last sentence of this document, can you tell us what that
22 is discussing?
23 A. The item 1; right?
24 Q. The last sentence about: "The solution should be found to move
25 the El Mujahedin ..."
1 A. There are some letters missing here in this last sentence, as well
2 as in the penultimate one, so perhaps the sense might be lost in
3 translation. Reading, rather, in reading. Some letters are missing in
4 the text.
5 Q. Would you recall us looking at this in proofing? Don't you recall
6 looking at this and you gave an interpretation of what it was despite the
7 fact that there were some missing letters?
8 A. At the time, I did say that there were letters missing, and I
9 asked whether we dared -- whether we had a right to translate it, seeing
10 that letters were missing. If we have that right, please tell me so, but
11 it is quite obvious, as we concluded then as well, that there are letters
12 missing here.
13 Q. Right. And because of the type -- the diacritics that are on the
14 typing keyboard, but did you tell me that you were still able to make out
15 what this is talking about, because you can fill in the letters?
16 A. We talked about it. We came to the conclusion that there were
17 letters missing, and when I asked you whether that had to be translated,
18 you said that it was incomplete on account of the missing letters.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to read the paragraph or are you not
20 able to read it without the missing letters? If you're not able to, just
21 say you're not able to and let's move on.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that there are letters
23 missing, so I would not want to be wrong there.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 Move on, madam.
1 MS. SARTORIO: May the witness be shown P01869. Excuse me. That
2 was that one.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Sartorio, I'm curious to know what lies
4 behind that last paragraph that you drew the witness's attention to. What
5 was the problem that sparked the determination of the Supreme Command in
6 Kakanj to move the units of the El Mujahid, whoever that might be, out of
7 Zenica as soon as possible and to speed up the construction of the
8 barracks for them? I think you might wish to ask the witness to elaborate
9 a bit on this.
10 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, that's -- thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Sir, there was -- I think you heard what the Judge said, and there
12 was -- are you aware of the fact that there were some attempts or some
13 movement made to move the El Mujahedin into some barracks and away from
14 where they were at the time? Are you aware of that?
15 A. May I ask you to focus on the title of the document, namely, the
16 date, the 14th of November, 1994, when I was the deputy commander of the
17 4th Corps in Mostar. In other words, I was not at the command post in
18 Kakanj, in the General Staff, so that I don't know anything about this
19 document, in fact.
20 Q. Okay. We're putting the document away, and now I'm just asking
21 you in general: Are you aware of the situation where they had to build
22 barracks to move the El Mujahedin out of Zenica?
23 A. No, no, and I believe that is contained in my previous response.
24 No, I'm not aware of that.
25 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. May the witness now be shown P02865.
1 Q. And, sir, would you agree that this -- the date of this document
2 is the 22nd of December of 1995, and it's a regular combat report?
3 A. Actually, it is written here "the 28th of December." It is not
4 the 22nd. It is the 28th of December, 1995.
5 Q. I stand corrected. It looks like an incorrect translation again.
6 And this is a -- did you answer -- confirm whether or not this is a
7 regular combat report that is submitted to the Main Staff of the Army?
8 A. Yes, this is a regular combat report.
9 Q. Okay, sir. I'd like you to look at number 3 under the document.
10 I'd like the witness to be shown section 3, and also on the
11 English it's on the second page or -- second page.
12 Sir, this report -- this section under number 3 is discussing --
13 what is it discussing, sir?
14 A. It is written here:
15 "The combat morale of units in the zone of responsibility of the
16 3rd Corps," and that morale can be appraised, generally speaking, as good.
17 "The focus of activities of the Department for Moral Guidance and
18 Political Issues is on organising an appropriate send-off ceremony for the
19 members of the El Mujahid Detachment which will be held shortly."
20 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, sir.
21 Your Honour, I would ask that this --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.
23 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, sir.
24 Your Honours, we ask that this document be admitted in evidence.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
1 please be given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 607.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 MS. SARTORIO: May the witness now be shown P02308.
5 Q. Now, sir, can you identify what this document is?
6 A. This is an interim operative report, and it is sent from the 3rd
7 Corps to the -- it is sent to the General Staff from the 3rd Corps
9 Q. The General Staff at the command post Kakanj?
10 A. That's right.
11 MS. SARTORIO: I'd like the second page in English, please.
12 Q. And, sir, I'd just like to draw your attention to the paragraph
13 that begins discussing the El Mudjahedin Detachment. And could you
14 explain what that paragraph is describing?
15 A. It is written here that forces of the El Mujahedin department and
16 other units, the 4th Battalion and the 7th Brigade, carried out offensive
17 operations, attacks, during the day, and the El Mudjahedin Detachment, at
18 a specific direction or axis, the village of Cevaljusa and Nikolino Brdo,
19 routed the forces of the Vukovi Detachment. In the combat that was
20 conducted on this axis, the Chetnik forces suffered losses, the 20
21 Chetniks who remained on our side, that is, as far as the El Mudjahedin
22 Detachment is concerned.
23 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, sir.
24 Your Honours, we ask that this document be admitted in evidence.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
1 please be given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 608.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 Yes, Madam Sartorio.
5 MS. SARTORIO: And finally may the witness please be shown P02315.
6 Q. Now, sir, this document appears -- this document is dated a day
7 after the previous report; is that correct?
8 A. It says "the 24th of July, 1995" here.
9 Q. And it's an interim -- another interim combat report?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. And it's going to the Supreme Command Staff at Command Post
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. And if you look a little below halfway down, do you see where it
15 refers again to the El Mujahedin and the 328th Brigade?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is this a continuation of the reporting from the operation that
18 was taking place?
19 A. I could not confirm that with certainty, but it says here that the
20 forces of the El Mujahid Detachment and the 328th Mountain Brigade forces,
21 which, by the way, are not referred to in the previous report,
22 successfully removed the forward line of defence in the Nikolino Brdo and
23 Ravne areas on the stretch "S," meaning village of Cevaljusa, Nikolino
24 Brdo, Ravne, Podsjelovo. There is reference to the 328th Brigade here,
25 and there was no such reference in the previous one so I'm not sure
1 whether it is indeed a continuation of the previous mission.
2 MS. SARTORIO: That's fair, thank you.
3 Your Honours, we ask that this document be admitted in evidence.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
5 please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 609.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 Madam Sartorio.
9 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honours. We have no further
10 questions. I have no further questions.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Madam Vidovic.
13 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:
14 Q. Good afternoon. I'm Vasvija Vidovic and I will be leading you
15 cross-examination on behalf of Rasim Delic's Defence.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. The nature of any cross-examination is such that to a majority of
18 my questions you will be able to answer either by "yes" or "no," and since
19 I have quite a lot of questions for you and my time is limited, I would
20 kindly ask you, whenever possible, please provide very short, simple
21 answers. A mere "yes" or "no" will do unless I ask for some additional
22 information, either I or the Honourable Chamber.
23 Did you understand me?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Thank you very much.
1 Mr. Alija, you graduated from the military academy in Belgrade; is
2 that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You have a lot of experience working in various posts in the
5 former JNA?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In the BiH Army, you also discharged various high duties and you
8 held various high offices; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You were the chief of the Command of the 1st Corps, in the 1st
11 Corps Command?
12 A. Yes, I was the chief of Staff.
13 Q. Yes, you were the chief of Staff, thank you. After that, as
14 you've already told us, you worked in the Staff of the Supreme Command, at
15 the command post in Kakanj, and I will go back to that in some detail
16 later on.
17 And now I would like to ask you briefly about the rules and
18 regulations of the former JNA, since you used those rules and regulations
19 before the war. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. It is true, isn't it, that these rules and regulations were
22 actually -- served as a base for the BiH Army; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, at the beginning of the
25 war, for a very brief period of time, applied the regulations of the
1 former JNA; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, it is, because we did not have our own regulations at the
4 Q. However, the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, already in the
5 summer of 1992, passed its own regulations, decrees and bylaws which
6 regulated the control and command; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. A decree on defence was passed; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. After that, a decree on armed forces?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Later on, I will go back to the experience that you amassed as the
13 chief of Staff in the Corps, but now I would like to show you the
14 documents that the Prosecutor showed you yesterday.
15 Can the witness please be shown Exhibit 597.
16 Do you remember having seen a schematic yesterday? While the
17 document is being shown, can you remember having seen a schematic
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The Prosecutor showed you document PT1389. This was an order by
21 the SVK, and do you remember that the schematic was an integral part of
22 that document; do you remember that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And now I would kindly ask you to look at the same schematic
25 again. In your testimony, you said that you didn't know whether this was
1 a schematic that was in effect in the course of 1995; do you remember
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. You also told us that the schematic was rather unclear. You
5 mentioned some ambiguities about the name, the acronyms "SVK" and the
6 General Staff; do you remember that?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document
9 please be put away.
10 Q. On this schematic, you added certain things?
11 A. Yes, because the schematic was incomplete. It said here "the 8th
12 Corps," and I don't think that the 8th Corps ever existed or was a part of
13 the BH Army.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
15 Your Honours, can the witness now please be shown P01839. This is
16 a document --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that not already an exhibit?
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yesterday, the Prosecutor tendered
21 the schematic, but not the entire document.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I agree.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Witness, could you please look at the document. Will you agree
25 with me that you've already seen the document dated 18 October 1994?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The title was "Reorganisation of the BiH Army"?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The organisation order. And now can you go to the second page of
5 this document, both in English and in B/C/S. I am looking at bullet point
6 number 7. Yes, we can see it.
7 Please look at bullet point number 7.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Please, Witness, will you agree with me that it says here that the
10 Department for Organisation and Mobilisation of the Superior Command Staff
11 will draft new establishment of the General Staff, of the Corps Command
12 and the Division Commands in accordance with the schematics 1, 2, 3 and 4?
13 4 --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- which are enclosed with the document?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you then agree with me that this item 7 says that the schematic
18 is pending, that it is yet to be drafted?
19 A. Yes, I can read this here.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now please be shown
21 page number 7 in the Bosnian version, which is the last page in the
22 English version. In other words, it is the last page in both the B/C/S
23 and the English versions of this document.
24 Q. Witness, can you please look at bullet point -- let us please see
25 the English page that was on the screen previously, that we just had on
1 the screen, because we would like to look at bullet point number 29, which
2 is probably page number 15.
3 One page before this one, if you could.
4 Can you find the signature page, which is a few pages before this
5 one? Yes, just a moment. I believe it will be the previous page in the
6 English version. Yes.
7 Could you please display bullet point 29, which I believe is on
8 the previous page of the English version. The previous page of the
9 English version. Yes, that's it. Now we can see it. Thank you very
11 Q. Very well. Witness, I hope you've been able to read the paragraph
12 in your own language while we were waiting for the same page to appear in
13 the English version. Will you agree with me that these parts, i.e., this
14 part of the document, shows that the chief of Staff and chiefs of
15 administrations and departments will prepare a proposal for the
16 organisation of their respective departments and that all the positions
17 and opinions will be coordinated, and it is here suggested that this
18 should be done in the way as per schematics 1 to 5; can you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you agree with me that these parts of the document, this one
21 and the bullet point 7, clearly indicate that these schematics were
22 nothing but the working material based on which the final instruction on
23 the internal organisation of the General Staff of the Army should be
25 A. Yes, I agree with you completely.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask for
2 this document to be given an exhibit number; the entire document, that is,
3 including the schematics.
4 And, Your Honour, in the meantime I am going to show the witness
5 the schematic that I believe is really important.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: This document is admitted into evidence. May it
7 please be given an exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 610.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
11 Exhibit number 419.
12 Q. Witness, can you see that this is a document issued by the
13 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina which had passed a decision, i.e., a
14 schematic on the organisation of the BH Army?
15 A. Yes. You can see it very clearly. This is a decision of the
16 Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the schematic of
17 the future organisation of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at the last
19 page of the same document, i.e., page 4 in the Bosnian version and page 6
20 in the English version. Can we please see the signature block.
21 Q. Do you agree with me that this document was passed on the 24th of
22 October, 1994, that it was signed by the president of the Presidency?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Witness, we saw a document issued on the 18th of October, 1994,
25 which was just a proposal, and will you now agree with me that this now is
1 a decision of the Presidency?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. First of all, let me ask you whether you will agree with me that
4 the Presidency was in charge of passing a decision on the schematic of the
5 organisation of the army?
6 A. Yes. That was within their purview.
7 Q. Now, sir, could you please look at the other provisions, where it
8 says, on the day when this decision is passed, the decision on the
9 schematic of the organisation of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
10 number so-and-so, dated 14 December, 1993, is now made null and void; do
11 you agree with that?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And am I right in saying that no other schematic of the
14 organisation of the BiH Army was no longer in effect as of the 24th
15 October 1994 but this one that was passed on that day; am I right in
16 saying that?
17 A. Yes, you are.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we go back to page 1
19 now, please.
20 Q. You explained to us that the Presidency is the supreme command of
21 the Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. So I'm not going to ask you that, but please look at page 2 now,
25 item 3, which is page 2 in the Bosnian version as well as in the English
1 version, reappointments. Do you agree, Mr. Alija -- renaming, actually.
2 As we are talking about the 20th of October, 1994, it was on that day that
3 the Main Staff of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was renamed "the
4 General Staff of the Army"; is that correct?
5 A. That is correct. That is why I said, when discussing the diagram,
6 that it was not quite clear, and this actually specifies what refers to
7 what very precisely.
8 Q. Thank you. Would you please be so kind as to look at -- actually,
9 I would like to quote, first of all -- I apologise.
10 What I want you to do at this point is to look at this subtitle
11 "Organisation of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina," and
12 please go through it. Will you please read it for yourself?
13 A. I have, I have read it.
14 Q. Very well. Do you agree with me that the Army of the Republic of
15 Bosnia and Herzegovina comprises the -- consists of the General Staff, the
16 Air Force and Anti-aircraft Defence Commands, six corps, the East Bosnia
17 Operations Division, three independent brigades which are actually
18 designated here, the Guards Brigade, the 10th Mountain Brigade and the 1st
19 Reconnaissance Sabotage Brigade, the Black Swans, Crni Labudovi, and that
20 a chart has been made accordingly, which is attachment number 1 to this
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, will you please reply to this question: Mr. Alija, it would
24 be erroneous to believe, would it not, that all the units of the Army of
25 Bosnia and Herzegovina were under the direct command and control of the
1 Army General Staff, i.e., its commander?
2 A. Yes, you are quite correct. It was impossible for the commander
3 to control all units. There were hundreds of other units.
4 Q. The essence of my question is this: It is true, is it not, that
5 specific units were designated here in this paragraph? You can look at
6 item 2 again. So the units are precisely spelled out, and who is directly
7 subordinated to the commander of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
8 If we can now look at item 5, Your Honours. Can you scroll the
9 down document a bit. In the Bosnian version, it is on this page, and in
10 the English version, on the following page.
11 Witness, please take a look at item 5 of this document. It says
12 the following here:
13 "The following shall be directly subordinated and linked to the
14 Army General Staff commander, the Air Force and Anti-aircraft Defence
15 commander, and the commanders of the units referred to under item IV/I of
16 this decision." Also the Deputy commander and the chief of the Army
17 Staff, and it goes on to list the rest of the subordinates.
18 So is it true that -- when I say -- am I right when I say that the
19 corps commanders are directly subordinated to the General Staff commander,
20 and the rest who are specifically listed in this item; am I right?
21 A. Yes, you're quite right. The commanders of the corps and of these
22 administrations that are listed here in this item.
23 Q. Yes, and of the administrations listed here in this item. And now
24 please look at page 7 of the Bosnian version, page 7 of the Bosnian
25 version, which is page 11 of the English version, Your Honours.
1 Can we take a look at chapter number 5 or passage number 5,
2 looking from the top, or the third from the bottom, if you like. In the
3 English, that is the second passage from the top of the page, which begins
4 with: "The present number of corps ..."
5 Witness, I shall quote this part of the explanation, which says:
6 "The present number of corps shall not change. Instead of
7 operations groups, which were formed as temporary units, making it
8 impossible to appoint officers to duties within operations groups,
9 divisions are established within corps. Besides divisions, one mobile
10 manoeuvring brigade is formed in each corps under the direct commander of
11 the corps commander who thus exerts his influence on the main axis of
12 combat activities."
13 My question is: Do you agree that this document says -- this part
14 of the document, namely, specifically explains that under the direct
15 command of the corps commander are divisions and mobile or manoeuvring
16 brigade with which the corps commander exerts his influence on the main
17 axis of combat activities?
18 A. Yes, I agree with that. That is what it says here, and that is
19 how it has been in force, and it is correct.
20 Q. Is this the way that this functioned in practice?
21 A. Yes, it did.
22 Q. I shall kindly ask you to let me finish my question. So is this
23 the way this functioned throughout 1995?
24 A. Yes, this is the way it functioned, the corps, divisions,
25 brigades, battalions and companies and platoons.
1 Q. In other words, divisions were directly subordinated to the corps
2 commanders; is that correct?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. So, Mr. Alija, this decision that we have seen actually determined
5 that the commander of the Main Staff directly commanded corps commanders,
6 issued orders to them; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. Of course, excepting certainly here those units who were directly
9 commanded by the General Staff? I'm talking about the principle here.
10 And it is also correct, is it not, that the corps commanders could be
11 directly commanded also by the deputy commander of the Staff of the
12 Supreme Command, when he was standing in for the commander, or
13 according -- or under his authority, the authority of the former; is that
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. Working in the JNA, as a former JNA officer, and in the Army of
17 Bosnia and Herzegovina, you certainly must know what the principle of the
18 unity of command is in military doctrine.
19 A. Yes, certainly, unity of command and subordination.
20 Q. The principle of unity, singleness of command, was adopted in the
21 regulations which concern control and command in the Army of Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina, was it not?
23 A. Yes, it was.
24 Q. That means that the commander could not -- cannot interfere in the
25 authority of the first subordinate commander, the first subordinate
1 commander to him, in the sense of issuing a direct order to the unit which
2 is under the command and control of his subordinate or an even
3 lower-ranking subordinate; am I right?
4 A. Yes, you are right. This is the basic principle of the unity of
5 command, where the commander issues commands and orders to his first
6 subordinate, and then that subordinate issues further orders to his
7 subordinates, and so on.
8 Q. The same also is true of reporting, is it not? This is what you
9 told us, actually, in responding to the Prosecution's questions and
11 A. Yes, that is true.
12 Q. A lower-ranking unit, for instance, a battalion or a detachment,
13 cannot directly report to the Corps Command, for instance?
14 A. No, it definitely cannot. It must first report to its superior
15 command, which is the brigade, the brigade to the division, division to
16 the corps, and the corps to the General Staff.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Your Honours, I believe that this is already an exhibit and can be
19 now moved away, please. And can the witness at this point be shown
20 document D402, please.
21 Q. A while ago, you mentioned the General Staff administrations. Do
22 you remember that? And you can see that this is a document of the Supreme
23 Command Staff of the Operative Centre of Command from Kakanj. The date it
24 bears is the 1st of January, 1994. In connection with this, I should like
25 to ask you this: So, as you worked in Kakanj, the principle was -- the
1 principle work was this: You told us that every administration had its
2 head, there were administrations, so am I right to assume that every
3 administration had its own head or chief?
4 A. Yes, you're quite right.
5 Q. As regards these administrations, they also communicated, did they
6 not, both in terms of ordering and reporting, with organs of a lower
7 level, that is to say, with lower-ranking organs; for instance, the
8 Administration for Moral Guidance of the General Staff with the Corps
9 section for Moral Guidance; am I right?
10 A. Yes, you are right when you say that, because everybody
11 communicated on the basis of their line of specialty, the logistics organs
12 with the logistics organs in the Corps, the Administration for Moral
13 Guidance with the Department for Morale Guidance in the Corps, the
14 Administration for Security with the Department for Security in the Corps,
15 the Intelligence Administration with the intelligence organs in the Corps,
16 so they communicated along specialist/professional lines and exchanged
18 Q. This process was a two-way one, if I can say so.
19 Yes, we shall slow down a bit, Mr. Alija.
20 So if I can say that -- if I can say so, as far as the orders
21 coming from the top to bottom, from the administration towards the
22 sections, the departments, going down towards the first subordinate level
23 and then the second one, this is the way the process went; am I right?
24 A. Yes, you're right.
25 Q. And the reporting process was exactly the opposite; from the first
1 lowest level to the higher -- next-higher level and on to the General
2 Staff; am I right?
3 A. Yes, you are right.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Your Honours, may this document please be admitted and be given an
6 exhibit number.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
8 please be given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 611.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You told us, Witness, that a significant period of time is spent
14 working as the chief of Staff of the 1st Corps of the BiH Army; is that
16 A. Yes, I was the chief of Staff for a brief period of time. I spent
17 much longer as the deputy commander of the Corps, but, yes, I was the
18 chief of Staff of the 1st Corps as well.
19 Q. I would like to ask you about certain duties that the chief of
20 staff of any corps has to discharge. Am I right in saying and in thinking
21 that a chief of staff has to discharge its duties pursuant to the
22 instructions and decisions of the corps commander?
23 A. You're right.
24 Q. Some of the decisions -- some of the duties are discharged
1 A. Yes. That's what I was going to say next.
2 Q. The chief of Staff is in charge of the work of the Staff through
3 the professional organs in the Staff. He monitors the operative and
4 tactical positions of the corps in the field; am I right?
5 A. You are absolutely right. Those are just some of the duties that
6 a chief of staff discharges, in addition to everyday duties and
7 activities, that is.
8 Q. He also analyses combat and other capabilities of the corps; am I
9 right in thinking that?
10 A. Yes, you are.
11 Q. He also looks at the situation in the field?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. He also analyses combat reports received from the subordinated
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. He drafts combat and other documents which are of significance for
17 combat activities work and life in his unit; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, of course assisted by the organs that he has on the strength
19 of the corps.
20 Q. Of course, that's true. He is also somebody who coordinates the
21 planning of operations and actions executed by the corps; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. He also maintains communications with the chiefs of staffs of the
24 subordinated commands; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. He also informs the commander of the situation and problems that
2 have been noticed in the corps?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And, finally, he's the one who proposes to the commander as to how
5 to solve and deal with certain problems; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And now, on behalf of the corps, the commanders of the corps
8 communicate with the Supreme Command Staff along the command lines?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. When it comes to the professional lines, it is the professional
11 organs that communicate with each other? And I'm here referring to
12 administrations and departments.
13 A. You're right.
14 Q. For example, the Security Service of the 3rd Corps will
15 communicate with the Security Service of the Supreme Command Staff, if
16 that is -- is that correct?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. Thank you. And now I would like to ask you something about the
19 position and role of the command post of the Supreme Command in Kakanj and
20 also the other one in Zenica.
21 You will agree with me, won't you, that the situation, in terms of
22 the command of the BiH Army, that the war situation in Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina for the BiH Army was very specific, it was not a typical
24 situation? And I will explain why I'm putting it in this way, and you can
25 answer me then.
1 The capital, Sarajevo, was under siege of the Serb forces, and
2 that's where the Command was; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Likewise, the areas that were under the control of the BH Army
5 were intersected by the enemy formations; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. This was why a majority of the Supreme Command Staff, in 1994,
8 left Sarajevo in order to improve their situation; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. However, the capital of Bosnia and Herzegovina is where the
11 commander of the Staff and his office remained, together with a smaller
12 number of various administrations; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. This was necessary because he, by his position, was also a member
15 of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and he was duty-bound to
16 attend the sessions of the Presidency; is that correct?
17 A. I believe that this was a very important reason, but also the
18 commander often participated in the talks that were held in the capital,
19 at the airport, so that he had daily activities in the capital.
20 Q. Are you now referring to the context with the representatives of
21 the international organisations?
22 A. The international organisations, and I also refer to the talks
23 that were organised at the airport with UNPROFOR -- actually, the talks
24 that were organised by UNPROFOR.
25 Q. I see. I believe you're talking about the peace talks --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- that were very intensive in the course of 1994?
3 A. Yes, those were very frequent meetings at the time.
4 Q. This means that these negotiations were held very often in the
5 course of 1994 and 1995; am I right?
6 A. Yes, you are.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Can the witness
8 please be shown D403.
9 Q. I hope that you will manage to read parts of this document. Let
10 me just say for the record this is an article from the
11 daily "Oslobodjenje." The date is the 23rd of July, 1995. I believe that
12 you can tell me something about the facts that are referred to in this
14 Your Honours, I don't think that the witness can see anything.
15 Maybe we can blow up the version in the Bosnian, the language for the
16 witness, the part that is under the image. If not, then we can provide
17 the witness with a hard copy of the same page.
18 In this case, the Trial Chamber does not have the English version,
19 so maybe we can provide the witness with a hard copy of the B/C/S version.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see everything.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] But maybe it would be best if you
22 could have it in the hard copy as well.
23 Q. As you can see, this article refers to the agreement between the
24 state delegations of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia in Split, and the
25 title of the article is "Joint Defence Against the Aggressor." I believe
1 that you know and that you're aware of something that was well known in
2 the army as "the Split agreement."
3 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.
4 Q. I would now kindly ask you to look at the part that is immediately
5 under the title. It says here that the two state delegations, after the
6 talks, signed a declaration on the implementation of the Washington
7 Agreement, the joint defence against the Serb aggressor, and achieving a
8 political solution. And you can see that it says here that this was done
9 in Split on the 22nd of July, 1995. Can you see "Split, 22nd July 1995"?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, can you look at the fourth paragraph.
12 And for the Trial Chamber, this is the second paragraph in the
13 English version, in which there is a list of the members of the
15 Will you agree with me that it says here "Brigadier Ramiz Delic"?
16 Please, do you know that General Delic was representing the Army of Bosnia
17 and Herzegovina at these negotiations in Split?
18 A. Yes, I know that.
19 Q. In the Supreme Command Staff, you knew about the peace talks?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document please be given an
22 exhibit number.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
24 please be given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 612.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we would like to
3 correct the translation, because the name in the translation is spelled
4 wrongly. I have to check, but it seems to me that the name is spelled
5 wrongly. It says "Ramiz Delic" instead of "Rasim Delic," so we would like
6 to correct the written translation of this document where the name is
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You mean the English translation of the exhibit
9 said "Ramiz Delic" but I didn't --
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Previous translation continues]... possible.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- I didn't look at the B/C/S, but it did say "Ramiz
12 Delic." We can look at it again. Can we bring that exhibit again,
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, yes, we can do that, but
15 I would like to clarify one thing with the witness in the meantime. My
16 version is now in the hands of the witness, so I can't see whether there
17 was another Delic save for the General Rasim Delic.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in the General Staff. There was
19 a Sead Delic in the 2nd Corps. That was another Delic in the BiH Army.
20 As for the General Staff, there was only Rasim Delic, the commander of the
21 General Staff. There was no Ramiz Delic. No Ramiz Delic existed in the
22 General Staff, as far as I know. There was no General Ramiz Delic, to my
24 MS. VIDOVIC:
25 Q. Do you know that General Rasim Delic participated in the peace
1 talks in Split, in the so-called "Split Negotiations"?
2 A. Yes, I know that.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just mention that the Delic in this exhibit,
5 on the English version, is actually a brigadier, it's not a general.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I noticed that myself. That is
7 what I'm talking about, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The name of Mr. Delic is not mentioned here. Is
9 the witness saying he has independent knowledge that he attended? Is that
10 the testimony?
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is. Yes, it is, Your
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And is it also possible to have a look at the copy
14 that he has, the B/C/S copy that he has. I guess these names are listed
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I believe so, Your Honours.
17 Perhaps if we could just enhance these parts which are in bold
19 It is written "Brigadier General Ramiz Delic." The translation is
20 incorrect. They said "Brigadier" instead of "Brigade General Ramiz
21 Delic," which is quite clearly written here.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where is "Ramiz Delic" here? Is it "Ramiz,"
23 not "Rasim"?
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: It says "Ramiz."
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is written "Ramiz Delic," but it
1 says "Brigadier General Ramiz Delic," so I think it is a typo. This is a
2 war paper, Your Honours. I shall certainly clarify it with the witness.
3 Q. Witness, do you agree with me that there could have been no
4 other -- that there did not exist any other brigadier general in the Army
5 of Bosnia and Herzegovina except for General Rasim Delic?
6 A. I've just explained that, and I'm surprised that they wrote "Ramiz
7 Delic" in this paper. It was probably a typographic error.
8 Q. Yes, but there did not exist any other brigadier general?
9 A. No, no. There was a Sead Delic, but in the 2nd Corps.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I believe, Your Honours,
11 that we can, and I propose that this document be admitted into evidence.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just ask one question. What was the rank of
13 Mr. Rasim Delic at the time?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had the rank of general.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not brigadier general?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not quite sure what rank of
17 general he had, but it was a general's rank. Later, he was promoted, so
18 I'm not sure at that particular point, but it was definitely a general's
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Could we enlarge this exhibit again,
21 please, yes, just to make -- to zoom on it, around the name there.
22 Thank you very much, thanks.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document -- thank you very much. It has been
25 admitted. Thank you.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Witness, we have come across the issue
2 of "brigadier" and "general" a few times during this trial, and if you
3 know, could you then explain to us if indeed a brigadier is the lowest of
4 the general ranks or whether it is something that it's a title that does
5 not relate to the level of generals?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Army of the Republic of
7 Bosnia and Herzegovina, the rank of brigadier is between colonel and
8 general. That is not a general's rank, brigadier, whereas in other
9 European and world armies, that is the first general's rank, whereas in
10 our army it is the rank between the colonels and the general ranks, but
11 not a general rank.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. That was very useful.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just get clarification on something you said
14 a little earlier, sir.
15 When I asked whether Mr. Delic was a brigadier or general, you
16 said: "I'm not quite sure what rank of general he had, but it was a
17 general's rank. Later, he was promoted, so I'm not sure at that point --
18 particular point, but it was definitely a general's rank."
19 My question to you is: Later, what was he promoted to?
20 A. You must have misunderstood me. Senior officers were given ranks
21 all the time. General Delic was a general then, on that date. I don't
22 know exactly how many stars he had. That is why I said what I did. He
23 was an army general, and he had four stars, in other words.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Listen to my question. My question relies on the
25 last sentence: "Later, he was promoted ...," and I'm asking you: What
1 was he promoted to later or were you misunderstood by the interpreters?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said that he was promoted,
3 that meant that he was given another star. That's what I meant.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, still being a general. Thank you so much.
5 That explains the --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I just wanted to ask a question.
9 This is not an official document, this is a newspaper's article,
10 so sometimes journalists are not as accurate in their reports when they
11 report ranks or others. So this possibly isn't as important as it may
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
14 If at this point the witness can look at Exhibit 281. This is
15 also a very fuzzy copy, but I believe that when we blow this document up,
16 that you will be able to see. And if we can enlarge the first part of the
17 Bosnian version of the document, where the date and the heading can be
19 Q. Do you see what this is about?
20 A. Organisation of the deployment of the Staff of the Supreme Command
21 of the Armed Forces.
22 Q. Yes. And the date is the 16th of February, 1994. Mr. Alija,
23 please be so kind as to answer this question: The Staff of the Army is
24 certainly not the same as the Supreme Command Staff; am I right? I'm
25 talking about the Army Staff.
1 A. Yes, you are right.
2 Q. Am I correct when I say that the Staff of the Army is an
3 operational body of the Staff of the Supreme Command, which is associated
4 directly with activities concerning combat operations?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now kindly take a look at this document below.
7 Can you scroll the document down.
8 Can you see the order? Stop it now.
9 Do you agree that this order regulates, i.e., says that the Staff
10 of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, this operational
11 body, in other words, in order to function better, is to be relocated to
12 Kakanj, and then it goes on to list the segments and the administrations
13 that are to be transferred to Kakanj; do you see that part?
14 A. I do see that, but I don't see where they are being relocated to.
15 Q. You mean it is not written that it is going to Kakanj?
16 A. Yes, the Staff of the Army, in order to function better and so on
17 and so forth.
18 Q. Yes, but take a look under "B," to the broader area, to the
19 general area of Kakanj, the village of Biljesevo, Zenica?
20 A. Yes, this is the area to which they will be redeployed.
21 Q. And this is where you worked?
22 A. Yes, in Kakanj.
23 Q. Do you agree that the Operations Centre for the planning,
24 preparation, organisation, and monitoring and implementation of the combat
25 activities was wholly transferred to Kakanj?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You told us that you worked in the Administration for Operative
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Your chief was Mr. Asim Dzambasovic, was he not?
6 A. Yes, he was.
7 Q. The activity of your department was to draw up global documents
8 and plans of significance for the improvement of the situation in the BH
9 theatre of war; is that right?
10 A. That was the activity of the administration, and our department
11 was part of the administration.
12 Q. And the department undertook global analyses of the situation in
13 the BH theatre of war; is that right?
14 A. Yes, that is right.
15 Q. In the Operations Centre, there was a team that monitored the
16 situation in the BH theatre of war every day and registered all the
17 breakthroughs and losses of territory?
18 A. There was a duty officer in the Operations Centre on duty at all
19 times, and in each administration there were heads -- there were senior
20 officers who conducted activities related to their own specialty in the --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues]...
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. We will take a break and come back at
24 quarter to 6.00.
25 Court adjourned.
1 --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 5.46 p.m.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 We will no longer need this document, and I would like to start
6 talking about --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want the document admitted into evidence,
8 Madam Vidovic? Oh, it was an exhibit. Thank you, thank you very much.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Operation planning is something that I wanted to ask you about.
11 Since you worked in the Staff of the Supreme Command, would it be true
12 that the Supreme Command defined the strategic goals of the Armed Forces
13 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina? I'm now referring to the
14 Presidency. The Presidency was the body, therefore, that acted as a
15 supreme command and, as such, defined the strategic goals of the Armed
16 Forces of the Republic of the Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I would like now to show you a document. This document is number
19 D404. This is a document issued by the General Staff. The date is 8
20 March 1995. It seems that the document was signed by yourself, on behalf
21 of the commander, and for that reason I believe that you know the context
22 that was in place when this document was created. The investigator of the
23 Prosecution showed that document to you when you provided your statement?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you please read the document and tell me whether you will
1 agree with me that the document bears the date 8 March 1995.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that it refers to a meeting of the Military Council, that it
4 is actually an order?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I would like you to focus on the lower part of the order, where it
7 says that the briefing should be timely to the president of the Presidency
8 and that it should deal with all the elements of combat readiness.
9 Do you remember the occasion when this document was drafted, you
10 provided a statement to that effect to the investigators of The Hague
12 A. It was drafted on the 8th of March, as you already said it
13 yourself, and given the newly-risen situation in the theatre of war, the
14 commanders of the corps were invited, as well as the commander of the Air
15 Force and Anti-aircraft Defence, to brief the president of the Presidency
16 on all the elements of combat readiness in order to provide him with a
17 picture of the situation at the front line so as to enable the president
18 of the Presidency, i.e., the president, to take appropriate measures with
19 regard to the situation in the theatre of war, i.e., in Bosnia and
20 Herzegovina as a whole.
21 Q. And now I would like to ask you a very specific question. Was
22 there a meeting with President Izetbegovic after this date to deal with
23 certain issues?
24 A. Yes, there was a meeting.
25 Q. Please, did that meeting have anything to do with the Sarajevo
1 operation, i.e., the attempt to lift the blockade of the city of Sarajevo?
2 A. I believe so, I believe that it did.
3 Q. And now what I would like to ask you is this: You mentioned
4 yesterday, in answering the Prosecutor's questions, the Sarajevo
5 operation, and you also said that you knew that there were teams in the
6 General Staff that were dedicated to the Sarajevo operation. And in this
7 regard, I would like to ask you this: It is true, isn't it, Witness, that
8 the Sarajevo operation was the only operation in the course of 1995 that
9 had been planned at the level of the General Staff of the Army of Bosnia
10 and Herzegovina?
11 A. That is correct, yes. The only planned operation was the Sarajevo
12 operation, and the others --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.
14 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour. I don't mean to interrupt the
15 flow, but I don't recall at all speaking about teams and being in --
16 dedicated to Sarajevo, whatever that is. Do you have a reference, because
17 I don't even know what it means, "teams," so I wouldn't -- I don't recall
18 asking any questions about that.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know how this
20 was recorded. I was not talking about the Prosecutor asking those
21 questions. I said that in answering the Prosecutor's questions, the
22 witness spoke about the Sarajevo operation and that there were certain
23 teams planned at the General Staff level for the Sarajevo operation. I
24 didn't say that the Prosecutor put a question to that effect, but that in
25 answering the Prosecutor's question, the witness mentioned that.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Give us the reference, Madam. Give a reference,
2 and we can see whether the witness said "teams" and in what context he
3 said so.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, unfortunately I cannot
5 do it right away. If you could just bear with us for a moment, I'll be
6 able to do it.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, we will bear with you.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] He spoke in some detail about the
9 Sarajevo operation, and I can see these parts. He mentioned that he
10 saw -- or used to see General Delic. I'm sure you will remember that.
11 Just a moment, please.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Give us a reference, please.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 66, Your Honours, page 66
14 of yesterday's LiveNote. I can see, in lines 17 and 18, and actually the
15 lines from 17 through 23, a reference was made that -- at this very
16 moment -- Your Honours, it would be easier for me to rephrase the question
17 and put it in a different way.
18 Q. Witness, actually, I'm not that interested in the teams, they're
19 not necessary for my question. Witness, you mentioned the Sarajevo
20 operation, and I want to ask you this --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I help you?
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, please, thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's page 4113 at line 18.
24 MS. SARTORIO: I see it now, Your Honour, so I withdraw the
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, ma'am.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. The purpose of my question, Witness, is the following, please: In
4 principle, the Sarajevo operation was the only operation that, in the
5 course of 1995, was planned at the General Staff level; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. In principle, combat operations were never planned at the General
8 Staff level; am I correct in thinking that?
9 A. Yes, but I would like to say something else. The General Staff,
10 at the beginning of the year, drafted a directive for the entire year,
11 based on which the corps worked throughout that year.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before that, can this
13 document be given an exhibit number, and then I'll go back to my question,
14 if I may.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
16 please be given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 613.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Vidovic, I'm not sure I fully understand the
20 relevance of this document.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may explain.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, please.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In the simplest possible way, of
25 What I'm trying to prove is what we included in the pre-trial
1 brief of the Defence, which is that the Sarajevo operation was the only
2 operation which had been planned at the General Staff level, and this
3 document shows that there was a meeting that the witness is aware of, and
4 at that meeting, which I'm going to elaborate later on through some other
5 documents, this is the document from which the planning of this operation
6 started, the Sarajevo operation, that is. This is the initial document in
7 the process of planning of this Sarajevo operation. At least this is the
8 way I understood the whole thing. But the witness is here. Maybe he can
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: You have elicited from the witness the evidence
11 that the Sarajevo operation was the only one which the General Staff
12 planned on its own, and that I will accept with no hesitation, but I can
13 see no reference to this fact in this document. So I'm just wondering
14 what is the meaning of it.
15 And secondly, of course, my concern is even if we accept the facts
16 that the Sarajevo operation was the only one which was planned and carried
17 out by the General Staff, then what is the significance of that fact? How
18 does this bear on the case against the accused?
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my client is charged
20 with planning, ordering and commanding combat operations in July and
21 September 1995 in the area of Vozuca.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 I don't want to belabour this point particularly in the presence
25 of a witness, but the Prosecution, in the indictment, has -- and in the
1 pre-trial brief, more specifically, has discussed the issues of planning
2 and ordering, as they go to notice. Obvious, this is a 7(3) only case,
3 and General Delic is not specifically charged under Article 7(1) of the
4 Statute. We have included evidence that go to the issue of ordering and
5 planning as those relate to notice and knowledge that he may have
6 possessed, which we allege he possessed, with regard to the El Mudjahedin
7 Detachment being involved in the operations which have formed part of this
8 case, but I do take issue with my learned colleague's statement as
9 reflected on lines 13 to 15 of page 69, that her client is charged with
10 planning, ordering and commanding combat operations. And perhaps it was
11 an interpretation error, but I do want to set the record straight, that
12 he's not charged with that. We have adduced evidence of that, however, as
13 to the issues of knowledge and notice.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: I could see it coming this way, and that was
15 exactly why I raised the point of the issue of planning the Sarajevo
16 operation. Maybe we should ask the witness to take off his earphones.
17 Mr. Alija, I'm sorry, can you take off your earphones?
18 I understand that the witness does, himself, understand English
19 and that he will understand your answer, anyway, so maybe we should just
20 drop it at this point and move on. But I would like to challenge the
21 Defence on this issue. We can do that when the witness has left the
23 Thank you.
24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Madam Vidovic, I would like to
25 ask for clarification to the witness.
1 Witness, to one of the questions put to you by Madam Vidovic, you
2 said the General Command, at the beginning of the year, prepared a
3 directive for the entire year, on the basis of which the corps in fact
4 functioned throughout the year. What exactly did you mean when you said
5 that the corps functioned on that basis throughout the year? What exactly
6 are you referring to? What kind of functioning or what kind of work were
7 you referring to?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. This means the
9 following: At the beginning of every year, the General Staff would
10 prepare a document under the name of "Directive." A directive is a
11 document that encompasses general activities in the theatre of war, which
12 was at the time Bosnia and Herzegovina in this particular case. The
13 directive encompassed all the corps, and such a directive would provide or
14 give a global task to every corps in their respective areas of
15 responsibility; not just one very precise task, but a global overview of
16 several activities that every particular corps had to carry out in the
17 implementation of that directive.
18 After that, the corps had been given a global task that they would
19 implement in the course of that year. That was their duty. And the
20 essence of the matter is that later on, they could independently plan
21 operations that stemmed from the directive.
22 A corps is such a unit that has personnel capabilities that allow
23 it to plan its own operations independently.
24 Thank you.
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In other words, the operations
1 within their zone of responsibility?
2 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the time being,
6 could we have this document marked for identification? Or maybe it has
7 already been admitted. I don't know.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought it was admitted as Exhibit 613.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
10 And now, Your Honours, I would like to go back to the issue.
11 Q. You have just explained what each and every corps did. In other
12 words, corps commanders would receive a task to provide the General Staff
13 with their proposals of their main focal tasks; is that correct?
14 A. I don't think I understood your question fully. What do you have
15 in mind?
16 Q. Okay. Let's start with the directive. A directive is the most
17 important document drafted by the Staff of the Supreme Command, headed by
18 the chief of Staff; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. This commander of the Staff of the Supreme Command approves the
21 directive; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, after he has been briefed by the chief of Staff.
23 Q. Very well. And then it becomes the basis for all the corps
24 commanders, for their independent planning of operations, in keeping with
25 the tasks provided by the directive; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And at this moment, Your Honours,
3 can we see Exhibit number 384.
4 Q. Witness, I believe that you can see this directive now, dated the
5 5th of January, 1995.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You know this document, you're familiar with it, aren't you?
8 A. Yes, I am.
9 Q. This directive was prepared at the Kakanj command post?
10 A. Yes, it was.
11 Q. It was drafted by different departments. Different departments
12 did their own segments of the directive?
13 A. The administrations did.
14 Q. Okay, the administrations. For instance, the Department for
15 Operations assessed the possibilities of its own forces?
16 A. Yes, it was the Administration for Operations that did that.
17 Q. So the Intelligence Administration prepared an assessment of the
18 enemy's forces?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And so on and so forth. Look at page 6 of the directive, which,
21 Your Honours, is page number 2 in the English version.
22 Take a look at this part. It is towards the bottom of the page.
23 Can we see this -- yes. The part which starts with: "I decided ..." Can
24 you read that?
25 A. "I have decided that in the coming defensive combat operations,
1 firmly hold the taken line of defence, continue carrying out offensive
2 combat operations of operative and tactical importance with particular
3 focus on the army, with the following objective: freeing the
4 temporarily-occupied territory; lifting the blockade of the encircled free
5 territories in the Drina River valley; lifting the blockade of Sarajevo;
6 join the forces of the 4th and 7th Corps with those of the 6th [as
7 interpreted] Corps; cut off important roads used by the aggressor for
8 supplies and evacuation; take control of important roads and industrial
9 facilities for our own needs; and create conditions for the final
10 liberation of our homeland."
11 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that these were the focal objectives of
12 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1995?
13 A. Yes, I do, and that is what this decision says.
14 Q. And in the further course of events or in the further text, there
15 are the specific tasks for the individual corps. Take a look at page 7 of
16 the Bosnian version, which in the English, Your Honours, is page number 3.
17 You don't have to read this out aloud. Just reads the tasks
18 assigned to the 2nd and 3rd Corps.
19 A. Can you scroll down a bit?
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Please enable the witness to
21 see item 5.
22 Q. My question, Witness, is this: This directive for 1995 actually
23 ordered the 2nd Corps to liberate Vozuca, and do you agree that this is a
24 very broadly-formulated order, without the specification of any precise
1 A. Yes, I agree. This is a directive which issues a global task and
2 joins up of the 2nd and 3rd Corps to liberate the general area of Vozuca.
3 Q. It is true, is it not, that the Corps Commands were absolutely
4 independent in planning the Vozuca operations in September 1995?
5 A. Yes, it is true, these are operative units that then planned their
6 own operations independently.
7 Q. In giving testimony yesterday, you told us that you had hardly
8 heard of the Proljece operation; is that right?
9 A. Yes, that is quite correct.
10 Q. The Supreme Command Staff did not take part in the planning or
11 control and command of combat operations in Vozuca in July 1995; is that
13 A. Yes, it is. It did not have any part in it.
14 Q. The July action at Vozuca in July 1995 was planned at division
15 level, was it not, if you know that?
16 A. I am not sure. I don't know, in fact, about the activities which
17 were carried out there, but they were not planned at the General Staff
19 Q. Very well. The General Staff did not approve this action, either?
20 A. Seeing that it had not planned it, it could not have approved it
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document can be
23 taken away, and can we look at Exhibit number 386 at this point.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, can I just get confirmation,
25 sir. You say this document is a directive from the General Staff?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
4 exhibit number.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, it's already admitted. Thank you, thank you
7 very much.
8 And you called for 386, Exhibit number 386?
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, 386, Your Honours.
10 This is a General Staff of the Army document of the 26th of August, 1998.
11 Q. You will recall having been shown this document by the
12 Prosecution's investigator when you made your statement?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The date on this document is the 26th of August, 1995, and its
15 title is -- or rather its subject, "Taking measures pursuant to the
16 directive for 1995, order."
17 Can you scroll the document down so that we can see the rest of
18 the text, please.
19 Judging by the initials that we can see on the document, one would
20 say that you are its author?
21 A. Yes, I am.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the Bosnian version
23 bottom part of the document, please. That is the second page in the
24 English version, Your Honours. Can we see the second page in the English
1 Q. Do you agree that in the place where there should be a signature,
2 there is written: "Commander, Army General Rasim Delic"?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. In the bottom left-hand bottom corner, it is stated "Approved."
5 Do you recognise this signature?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. First and foremost, tell us whose signature it is.
8 A. It is Brigadier Dzambasovic's signature, who was my superior at
9 that time.
10 Q. Asim Dzambasovic; is that right?
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 Q. Very well. Do you agree that I'm correct in saying that General
13 Delic was not present when this document was produced in Kakanj, he was
14 not in Kakanj at all?
15 A. You're quite right. Had he been there, he would have signed the
17 Q. That's exactly what I was going to say. In such a situation, it
18 would not have been Brigadier Dzambasovic to approve the dispatching of
19 this document; am I right?
20 A. Yes, you are quite right.
21 Q. It is true, is it not, that General Delic approved the directive
22 for 1995, and this order focused on the realisation of the directive in
23 the segment which concerned the Vozuca pocket; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you recall how it was that you actually drafted this document?
1 A. Yes, I can remember. As always, I was issued an order by
2 Brigadier Dzambasovic. I wrote it up, and after I wrote it up, I would
3 send it on for further processing, as was customary.
4 Q. Do you agree that this document orders the 2nd and 3rd Corps
5 Commands that they should carry out preparations and elaborate documents
6 for the liberation of the Vozuca pocket area?
7 A. Yes, that is correct, that was what was the substance of this
8 order, and it was also contained in the directive.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, actually Their Honours
10 cannot see what we are discussing, so if the first page of this English
11 version document -- of this document in the English version could be shown
12 on the screen, please.
13 That is it. Thank you very much.
14 Q. So item 2 regulates the request for the General Staff in Kakanj to
15 be submitted the corps plans for their approval; am I right?
16 A. Yes, you are.
17 Q. What happened further in putting the directive into practice was
18 that this order was dispatched to the corps commanders, who defined the
19 tasks of only their subordinates; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In other words, the commander of the division would be issued a
22 task from the corps commander to prepare a combat operations plan for the
23 division and then submit the division's plan to the corps commander for
24 his approval; right?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. And this process continued all the way up to the battalion level,
2 or down to battalion level, rather?
3 A. Yes, and down to company level.
4 Q. When the superior commanding officer approves the plan for the
5 execution of combat operations of a subordinated, the subordinated officer
6 then elaborates his own plans independently; is that a fact?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The planning of actions for Vozuca, or rather the Vozuca action in
9 September 1995, was done by the corps commands independently; right?
10 A. I would say "operations," because "action" is not an appropriate
11 term for the mission that was being under undertaken.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. This document, being an
13 exhibit, can be taken away now.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we take it off, let me just ask a
15 clarification question, sir.
16 This process that you say went down to battalion and company
17 level, did it also not go up beyond the corps?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The corps issued its orders and
19 dispatched them to the division. The division had to act on those orders
20 and to report to the corps. The division would follow suit vis a vis
21 lower-ranking subordinated units, which would then also report to the
22 division of any measures they undertook.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me rephrase my question.
24 Once the corps had approved its plans and it was ready to act,
25 didn't it submit those plans up for approval before operations?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mainly, the corps is such a unit, it
2 is an operative unit, it is a large unit. It is issued a directive. On
3 the basis of that directive, it has a number of courses of action, a
4 number of tasks, and is able to independently plan its activities.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please try to listen to my question and just
6 answer "yes" or "no." Did the corps, having drafted and concluded its
7 plans, not send it up the chain of command for approval?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it all depends. Sometimes
9 yes, and sometimes no. If it is associated with a directive, no, but if
10 there was a new plan, then yes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: But this order, which is written on behalf of the
12 accused, says: "The formulated plan of action is to be sent to the
13 Republic of BiH General Staff, Command Kakanj -- Command Post Kakanj for
14 approval and the settlement of other issues regarding its successful
16 What does that mean?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just draw your attention to
18 the fact that it says "to the realisation of a part of the directive," so
19 this just refers to one part of the directive, and that can be sent, and
20 this document requires it to be sent to the General Staff by the 2nd and
21 3rd Corps Commands.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Obviously, a corps is attending to a part of the
23 general directive. All I'm asking you is that: This paragraph 2, isn't
24 it calling for the corps to send up their plans for approval? You know,
25 don't cloud the answer with a lot of explanations. Just say, "Yes, it
1 does," or, "No, it doesn't," or, "I don't know." Then we know exactly
2 what your answer is.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As per item 2, yes.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And generally, when corps plan their combat
5 operations, don't they send them up for approval?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a bit specific, you know.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm asking you general. You have answered me on
8 this one. Forget about this one. Listen to my questions. I'm asking you
9 generally, doesn't that happen?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principle, yes, in principle.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
13 exhibit number.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it has already been
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, thank you.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Witness, can we please go back to something that needs to be
21 The actions that are planned by the corps, in principle, have to
22 be submitted for approval by General Staff; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If an activity has been planned by a division, in that situation
25 such a plan does not have to be submitted to General Staff for approval?
1 A. No. It would have to be submitted to the corps.
2 Q. Thank you very much. Very well.
3 And now I would like you to deal with the issue of combat reports
4 that arrived from the subordinated units to the command post in Kakanj,
5 and I would like to ask you this: The combat reports arrived in the
6 Operations Centre from the subordinated units to the Staff of the Supreme
7 Command; is that correct?
8 A. They did not arrive from divisions or brigades if those were not
9 subordinated to that body. Yes, you are right.
10 Q. You personally were privy only to the reports that arrived in the
11 Operations Centre; that's what you explained to us, is that correct?
12 A. This was accessible to the duty operations officer -- officer in
13 the Operations Centre. That person would make an overview of all the
14 reports and brief the chief of Staff or Brigadier Dzambasovic about that.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
16 Can we please look at document D046, please. D406, please. Thank
17 you, 406.
18 Q. Can you see the Bosnian version?
19 A. Yes, I can.
20 Q. This is a document issued by the Staff of the Supreme Command in
21 Kakanj. The date is the 31st of January, 1994, and it concerns with the
22 timely submission of reports.
23 Can we scroll down a little to show the whole document, please.
24 Would you agree with me that -- and this is probably on page 2 of
25 the second version, or maybe it has not been translated.
1 Can we go to the second page of the English version for the
2 benefit of the Trial Chamber, please.
3 Can you please confirm that this document was submitted to all the
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you please look at the very beginning of this document. Will
7 you agree with me that the Staff of the Supreme Command insists on the
8 significance of the truthful and timely reports and information for the
9 system of control and command?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now go back to page 1 in the
12 English version, please. The English version, please.
13 Q. And now, Witness, can you please pay attention to item number 4.
14 Can you see it? It's:
15 "Fight for complete truthfulness of reports and information. Take
16 the severest measures in case of their false representation."
17 I should like to ask you this about the document that is in front
18 of you: It is true, isn't it, that the Supreme Command Staff, when it
19 came to reports, did encounter the problem of incorrect and false reports
20 that were blown out of proportion?
21 A. Yes; hence the reason for this document to ask for truthful
23 Q. Would you agree with me that this document reflects the position
24 of the Staff of the Supreme Command with regard to the importance of
25 truthful reporting?
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document
3 please be given an exhibit number.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
5 please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 614.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We no longer need this document.
9 Q. Witness, do you agree that the way of reporting was regulated by
10 an order? Will you agree with that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The reporting from Kakanj to Sarajevo, to the president of the
13 Presidency, i.e., the commander, Commander Delic, was also regulated by an
14 order; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now at this moment, Your
17 Honours, can the witness please be shown Exhibit 371.
18 This exhibit consists of two documents. Both are orders of the
19 Staff of the Supreme Command at the Kakanj command post, dated 27
20 December. Please look at this order. It says, under 1, Corps Command:
21 "Combat reports from the corps which are sent should be sent to
23 Since you worked there, can you tell us whether this order
24 functioned, whether this procedure functioned in practice?
25 A. I believe it did.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know how this
2 can be possible. The interpretation of my question on page 84 does not
3 reflect what I asked.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: What line?
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Lines 8, 9 and 10. I asked the
6 witness, reporting from Kakanj to Sarajevo, to the president of the
7 Presidency or Commander Delic, was also -- I apologise, it is correct. I
8 apologise, it is correct. I apologise, Your Honours. This is a correct
10 Your Honour, instead of "i.e.," it should read "or," and then the
11 meaning it is completely different.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is completely -- it becomes completely
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that was the mistake.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And then what is the answer of the witness to the
16 completely different meaning now? Let's get that on the record.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness was
18 listening to my questioning in the Bosnian language, but I can repeat the
20 Q. Witness, the question is as follows, actually: Reporting from
21 Kakanj to Sarajevo, to the president or General Delic, was also regulated
22 by an order; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And for clarity's sake, "the president" refers to
25 the president of the Presidency?
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You may proceed, ma'am.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now can the witness please be
4 shown the following page of this document.
5 This is another document dated 27 December.
6 Q. Will you agree with me that this document refers to the order that
7 refers to sending reports to all administrations? Can you see that, and
8 do you agree with me?
9 A. It's not very legible, I must say. It is barely visible. Now
10 it's better. Now it's better.
11 Q. So you can see it. So you will agree with me -- maybe I can give
12 you that page. Here it says summary combat reports will be submitted by
13 the administrations, and you testified about that yesterday.
14 It is true, is it not, that only short, summary reports were sent
15 from Kakanj to Sarajevo; brief overviews, that is?
16 A. Yes, only the most important things were derived from the corps
17 reports. A summary was drafted and sent to these addresses.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] At this moment I would like to say
19 that I no longer need this document, and at this moment I would like to
20 show you another exhibit. The number is 598. I believe that you've
21 already seen this document. It was shown to you earlier by the
22 Prosecutor. Actually, it was yesterday that you were shown this document.
23 This is a document issued by the Command of the 3rd Corps, dated
24 29 June 1995. This is a regular daily combat report submitted to the
25 General Staff at the command post in Kakanj.
1 Let me just remind you and show you the second page, a part that
2 was already shown to you by the Prosecutor, but please bear in mind the
3 date, 29th of June.
4 Can we now please show the witness the second page in both the
5 English and the B/C/S versions. Actually, it is page 3 in English.
6 Q. Witness, could you please pay attention to the part where spring
7 is mentioned and where a reference is being made to the El Mudjahedin
8 Detachment in the first long paragraph.
9 Do you remember that you looked at the document yesterday?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will no longer need
12 this document. I would like to show the witness document D575. Please
13 just retain the information -- retain the information "El Mudjahedin
14 Detachment" and "29 June 1995".
15 And now can you look at D575.
16 Q. Witness, can you read this okay? This is a summary combat report
17 dated 30 June 1995. The title is "Situation in the BiH Theatre of War for
18 29 June 1995". Can you see that?
19 With regard to this, I would like to ask you the following:
20 Reports were always sent on the following day for the previous day, when
21 it came to the situation on the front line; am I right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And now you can see the activities of the aggressor, you can see
24 the activities of our own forces, and now kindly look at the part where --
25 can the document be scrolled down a little, the Bosnian and the English
1 version, please. No, the English version is okay. The Bosnian version,
3 Can you please look at the part that concerns the 3rd Corps, i.e.,
4 the part where the activities of the 3rd Corps are described, amongst
6 A. I can see that.
7 Q. And here, when it comes to the activities of the 2nd, 3rd and the
8 4th as well as the 7th Corps, you will agree with me it says that --
9 actually, this reference is very brief, and what I can see here and what I
10 would like to ask you is this: Do you see anywhere the information about
11 the El Mudjahedin Detachment that the Prosecutor showed you in the
12 previous document?
13 A. No, I can't see it in this document at all.
14 Q. Do you agree with me that this is just an example of a summary
15 report that you used to send from Kakanj to Sarajevo, to the president of
16 the Presidency, and the commander of the army, and some other addressees?
17 A. Yes, this is just an example of that. The others are very
19 Q. And I would like to show you the second part of the document, if I
20 may, both in English and in B/C/S.
21 Witness, please, will you agree with me that -- can we see the end
22 of the document, scroll down the document so we can see the document in
23 its entirety.
24 Do you agree with me that here there is a handwritten
25 remark: "Processed by cryptographic protection on 30th June 1995 at 0920"?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Isn't it obvious, then, that the document was sent to the
3 addressees, protected by cryptographic protection; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document be
6 admitted, and this is the place -- oh, no, I'm sorry, I still have another
7 15 minutes to go. I apologise.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't want it admitted because you have 15
9 minutes, ma'am?
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I thought that
11 this was the time for me to stop, but I would certainly like this document
12 to be admitted regardless of the time. Thank you.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
15 exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 615.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
19 Exhibit number 602.
20 Q. Witness, could you please look at the document. Let's see if we
21 have got the right document. I asked for E602.
22 A. This is the document.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think it should be a different
24 document. Here we have something different under that number.
25 Your Honours, in any case, I was going to ask questions about this
1 document as well, so I'll go back to it. This is probably my mistake.
2 Q. Sir, you did see this document already; you remember?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. This was a document issued by the 3rd Corps --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Now that this is not Exhibit 602, what is
6 this document? You must know what this document is. 602 is dated the 6th
7 of July, 1995.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 602, yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is this 602, this document on the screen?
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I switched two
11 numbers. I made a mistake between 602 and 603. My mistake. I'm the
12 cause of confusion. But this is 602, as a matter of fact.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I'm still confused, ma'am. What confuses me is
14 that according to my records, Exhibit 602 was a document dated the 6th of
15 July, not the 8th of July, and this document is dated the 8th of July.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you're right. That was
17 my understanding, precisely. That's why I wanted to see the document
18 dated 6th of July. This is the document that I asked for, a document
19 dated the 6th of July. According to our record, this is exactly as you're
20 saying, it should be 602, and this is not that document.
21 Could we be assisted? I believe that this is 603, actually.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: It may be, yes. 603 is dated the 8th of July. So
23 you want 602?
24 MS. VIDOVIC: Yes.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we have 602 on the screen, please? It is a
1 document dated the 6th of July?
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, 6th of July.
3 I believe it is this.
4 Q. Witness, do you see, having seen this document, too, that is a
5 document of the Command of the 3rd Corps of the 6th of July, 1995, sent to
6 the Main Staff of the Armed Forces at the Kakanj command post, and it is
7 entitled "Regular Daily Combat Report."
8 Do you remember -- and can we show the witness the part on the
9 second page.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, ma'am. This document is not only sent to
11 the Main Staff of the Armed Forces at Kakanj, but it is also sent to the
12 Main Staff of the Armed Forces, and to Kakanj, and to 2nd and 7th Corps.
13 It's sent to three institutions. There are three bullets.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. That is
16 Q. So, Witness, it is sent to the General Staff of the Armed Forces
17 at the Kakanj command post, to the forward command post of the 3rd Corps,
18 and to the Command of the 7th Corps; is that right?
19 Now please take a look at this section on the second page which
20 was shown to you by the Prosecutor.
21 Can the witness take a look at item 2, the situation and
22 activities of the forces of the 3rd Corps.
23 Take a look at the part referring to the 35th Division. You can
24 see a reference to Proljece-95 and the El Mujahedin in it?
25 A. Yes, I do see that.
1 Q. Very well. Please just remember this date, the 6th of July. We
2 have discussed it a lot. And this part referring to the Mujahedin.
3 The document can now be moved away. Can we now see document D576.
4 Can you re-enlarge the Bosnian version a bit, or rather show the
5 title to the witness.
6 Witness, if you're able to read this --
7 A. Yes, I am able. It is a bit difficult, but I will manage.
8 Q. If you cannot, we can give you a hard copy, if you are unable to
9 read it.
10 A. Well, if you have one at hand, that would be nice, yes. Thank
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the English version back
13 on the screen so that the Bench and the colleagues from the Prosecution
14 can see it.
15 Q. This is a summary combat report from the 7th of July, 1995,
16 entitled "Situation in the Bosnia and Herzegovina Theatre of War" for the
17 6th of July, 1995, and the information is being submitted to the president
18 of the Presidency, to the commander of the army, to the Gloc Command in
19 Visoko, and to the Administration for Moral Guidance for Morale in
20 Sarajevo. I'm going to ask you a specific question which refers to
21 the "Activity of Our Forces."
22 A. Yes, I do see that.
23 Q. You have the second page in front of you. That is right. Take a
24 look, please. Does it make any reference to the information which you
25 just saw a while ago, which had to do with Proljece and the El Mujahedin?
1 Can we scroll the English version up a bit.
2 A. No, there is no reference to those here.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Rather than scrolling the English version, we can't
4 see anything beyond -- no, no, scroll down, and the next page, if there is
6 This is funny. The document in B/C/S is so much longer, and
7 there's just this little paragraph in English. It is only that paragraph
8 that -- okay.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will try to explain.
10 I regularly submit to the Translation Service the documents. I
11 regret the fact that sometimes we have documents which are very useful in
12 their entirety, but we are compelled to just have a part of them
14 Anyway, as regards the activities of the 3rd Corps, we had that
15 translated, and that could be of the essence for us.
16 Q. So you have looked through the document in its entirety. Are the
17 El Mujahedin mentioned anywhere?
18 A. No, they are not.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this be given an exhibit number,
20 Your Honours. And take a look at --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
22 please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 616.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Witness, do you agree that this document, too, was also delivered
2 to Sarajevo under cryptographic protection?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. On the condition that the recipients were in Kakanj, sitting in
5 Kakanj at that moment, would this document have been submitted to them in
6 Sarajevo under cryptographic protection?
7 A. If they were --
8 Q. If they were in Kakanj.
9 A. Yes, yes, then they would have been given -- sent the document to
11 Q. Meaning that the document would not have been sent to Sarajevo,
12 cryptographically protected?
13 A. Yes, that's what it means.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, I believe
15 that now is a convenient time for us to adjourn, because the next document
16 would require perhaps a bit more time.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're grateful to you for the couple of minutes
18 you're giving us.
19 Court adjourned, and we'll start tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in
20 the afternoon, the same court.
21 Court adjourned.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.48 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of
24 October, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.