Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5375

1 Tuesday, 13 November 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, everybody.

6 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good afternoon, Your Honours. This

8 is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 May we have the appearances for today, starting with the

11 Prosecution.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Good afternoon, Your Honours, counsel, and everyone in and around

14 the courtroom.

15 Daryl Mundis for the Prosecution, assisted by our case manager,

16 Alma Imamovic.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 And for the Defence.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good

20 afternoon to my learned friends from the OTP. Good afternoon to everyone

21 in and around this courtroom. Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson on

22 behalf of General Delic. Our case manager is Lana Deljkic.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 Yes, Madam Vidovic, I believe you wanted to raise something.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Just a minor

Page 5376

1 issue.

2 I might exceed the time used up by the OTP in examining this

3 witness. I will try to keep it as short as possible. The issues that

4 this witness's evidence focuses on are issues of exceptional importance to

5 our defence. With this witness concerned, I wish to first of all

6 seriously challenge his credibility. This will require me to examine a

7 number of documents. I may exceed my allotted time by half an hour, by

8 your leave, needless to say.

9 That is the only thing that I wish to apply for. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

11 Yes, we will be keeping you under very strict observation to make

12 sure that you don't unnecessarily exceed your time limits, but we hear

13 what you say. Thank you very much.

14 May the witness please be called in.

15 [The witness entered court]


17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, Mr. Zilkic.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: At the beginning of your testimony, you made a

20 declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the

21 truth. You remember that?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are still bound by that declaration. Okay?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 5377

1 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

2 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Zilkic.

4 A. Good afternoon.

5 Q. I do hope you've had a decent rest and that we'll be able to

6 complete your examination very soon.

7 Can you please focus on making a pause each time I finish one of

8 my questions so that the interpreters are given sufficient time to

9 interpret my question and your answer.

10 Can we please have 787 shown to the witness.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's 787? Is it a document or is it an exhibit?

12 Sorry, the English says, "Can we please ..."

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Exhibit.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Exhibit. Thank you very much.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, this is a document

16 produced by -- an order produced by the Command of the 35th Division or

17 KoV, dated the 22nd of May, 1995.

18 Q. Witness, you have already looked at this document. You've

19 commented on it. It was shown to you by the OTP.

20 Can the witness now please look at page 2 of this document.

21 Could we please show the signature in the English. Thank you.

22 Witness, do you agree with me that this document is, in fact, not

23 signed?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. Do you agree there is nothing to show that the document was

Page 5378

1 delivered to anyone or, indeed, ever received by anyone?

2 A. We should go back to page 1, then; right?

3 Q. Which is exactly what we're about to do.

4 Can we please go back to page 1, all the way back to the beginning

5 of the document.

6 You see page 1 now, don't you? Is there anything indicating that

7 the document was encrypted or, indeed, sent off in any other way?

8 A. No, there is no indication not even of the units that it may or

9 may not have been sent to.

10 Q. Fair enough. I wish to draw your attention to something now, to a

11 particular section of this document.

12 First of all, you do agree that you were not the person who

13 produced this document, were you?

14 A. That's quite right.

15 Q. In fact, you'd never seen this document before the OTP showed you

16 a copy; right?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. It reads that the El Mujahedin signalled headquarters,

19 communications headquarters, was at the 13th Kilometre and was operating

20 constantly. What I wish to ask you is this: You never contacted the El

21 Mujahedin Detachment, did you, you personally?

22 A. Yes, that's right, I was never personally in contact with them.

23 Q. Which probably means that you don't really know whether this

24 communications centre, headquarters, was in fact operating at all?

25 A. That's true, I don't know that.

Page 5379

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

2 Your Honours, we can put this document away now. I wish to raise

3 a number of other issues.

4 Q. Let me ask you about what happened in Vozuca in September 1995.

5 What I have in mind is the battle known as "Farz." You mentioned

6 attending a briefing just before that battle, but I want to ask you this:

7 Those who were involved in that operation, did they wear any armbands or

8 ribbons in order to distinguish them from anyone else?

9 A. All of our units wore armbands.

10 Q. When you say "all of our units," what exactly do you mean; all of

11 the army's units, all those involved in the operation, or do you mean your

12 brigade alone?

13 A. I mean everyone, but I do know for sure about my own brigade.

14 Q. But you remember that all the other people involved wore those

15 armbands in order to avoid cases of friendly fire?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. You had a forward command post, your brigade did, for that

18 particular operation; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where exactly was it?

21 A. It was in the Hajderovici area.

22 Q. And the name of that forward command post was ...?

23 A. There was no specific name. Hajderovici, the general area.

24 Q. And how far from Rudac was that?

25 A. Between three and four kilometres.

Page 5380

1 Q. Right. And what about your brigade, did it have a forward command

2 post in Rudace during this action?

3 A. No.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now please be

5 shown Exhibit 467.

6 This is a command [as interpreted] produced by the Command of the

7 35th Division dated the 11th of September, 1995. As you can see, Witness,

8 this is an order to send in forces.

9 Can the witness please be shown page 2, or rather the bottom of

10 this document, where the signature should be. Let me see.

11 Q. Do you recognise the signature, Witness?

12 A. No, not this one.

13 Q. You don't recognise Hasanagic's signature?

14 A. No, it looks different here for some reason.

15 Q. Fine, fine. I do wish to remind you of something in relation to

16 this document.

17 First of all, do you remember making a statement to OTP

18 investigators?

19 A. In Sarajevo?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. Do you remember that this document, in relation to combat

23 activities on the 11th of September, was shown you? Do you remember that,

24 being shown that?

25 A. I can't remember specifically.

Page 5381

1 Q. Be that as it may, all right. This order, you see at the top of

2 this document that it was delivered to you as well, the 328th Brigade is

3 identified there as one of the recipients; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's right, page 1 of

6 the English, yes.

7 Q. Do you see that it was one of the recipients?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. So the 328th Brigade is being ordered to prepare the

10 forces of the 1st to 4th Battalion to take, hold, and maintain the lines

11 reached, newly reached. Can you see that?

12 A. Yes, I can.

13 Q. Was this order, in fact, implemented in terms of these lines

14 specified here, the newly-reached lines, [indiscernible]-Ravne-Nikolino

15 Brdo; can you remember that?

16 A. This line was established on the 11th, but not in its entirety.

17 For example, Nikolino Brdo and all this area, contact was made with the

18 2nd Corps in the Kvrge area and a lined was established.

19 Q. Thank you, that's quite sufficient for our purposes. If you look

20 at line 2, there is talk here, a joint forces carry out an attack the

21 companies of the 4th Manoeuvre Battalion and a company of the 2nd

22 Manoeuvre Battalion and a company of the El Mujahedin Detachment will

23 carry out an attack along the following axes, Podsjelovo-Kvrge-Djurica

24 Vis-Kvrge, with the task of routing the aggressor's troops at the forward

25 line of defence.

Page 5382

1 Can you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. I wish to ask you something about that. First of all,

4 you see that the Division Command issued this order from the Babilon

5 Forward Command Post on the 11th of September, right; that's what the

6 document says, does it not? It's just been moved, unfortunately. Right.

7 You can see it now, can't you?

8 A. I can't see "Babilon" -- ah, right, okay, okay, I can, I can.

9 Q. All right. You just mentioned Kvrge, you remember that, something

10 to the effect that a line was established there. What I wish to ask you

11 now is this: Can you please use a map to draw this axis for us, the

12 following axis: The axis along which the El Mujahedin Detachment was

13 active, Podsjelovo-Kvrge-Djurica Vis-Kvrge; from the front line,

14 Djurica Vis-Podsjelovo-Cevaljusa, and then in your statements to the OTP,

15 you mentioned that you observed this line being taken, and that is what I

16 want to look into now.

17 Can the witness please be shown map number 17 from the map book.

18 Can we zoom in a little so that the witness can see better. I'm

19 not sure if the witness has an electronic pen. I think there should be

20 one right next to your monitor, Witness. M-17.

21 I think this is the section that we ought to be looking at.

22 Q. Witness, you can give us a hand with this. Can you please

23 mark "Podsjelovo" with the electronic map?

24 A. Yes, but I need to be shown how first; right? The Podsjelovo

25 sector includes Elevation 715 --

Page 5383

1 Q. Right, right, that's all right, but please just mark the axis,

2 Podsjelovo-Kvrge-Djurica Vis, if you can. Use a line to do that,

3 Kvrge-Djurica Vis.

4 A. This is one axis, Podsjelovo-Kvrge [marks]. Then there's -- and

5 further down Djurica Vis [marks].

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please scroll down so see the

7 bottom of this map.

8 Can we please record this, and then we can pull the map down.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell you that I was here at

10 the Azarov [phoen] facility.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Witness. Please mark

12 the axis. I apologise, but I'll go and ask you questions in greater

13 detail about all these things.

14 Q. Let's first see about Djurica Vis. Where would that be? Lower

15 down; right?

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want this assigned a number, ma'am?

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the map be given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this part of the map, annotated,

20 will be Exhibit number 802.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I want the witness to mark the

23 following axis: Kvrge-Djurica Vis-Podsjelovo. Witness, please. It's all

24 right now. Well, at least I think it is .

25 Q. Can you see it all, Witness?

Page 5384

1 A. It was a while ago. It's all right now, yes.

2 Q. So it's all right?

3 A. It's all right now.

4 Q. Now it's fine. No. Again --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can the witness -- could the witness be asked to

6 circle these towns before he draws the line? Let's see. He moves faster

7 than us.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour, but we focus it

9 and then the situation shown on the map changes. If we can bring back the

10 map that we were looking at a while ago.

11 Q. Witness, I don't know if it's possible to do what I am asking you

12 to do using this map. Is it? Witness, please, if you can,

13 circle "Podsjelovo," "Kvrge," "Djurica Vis," "Cevaljusa."

14 A. [Marks]. Can we please pull it down a little?

15 Q. It's not focused properly, is it? It was a while ago, and then it

16 just slipped back off the screen.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we slip it back off the screen and lose that

18 marking, and then he can start afresh.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

20 Q. Witness, can you check now whether we can see Kvrge, Djurica Vis,

21 Podsjelovo and Cevaljusa?

22 A. We can see everything now.

23 Q. Ah, right. So first of all, circle these places.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second, Madam Vidovic.

25 Yes, sir.

Page 5385

1 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, sir. I've had a crash and I just

2 need about a minute to re-boot it.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Our court reporter has had a crash of his

4 instrument. He'd like a minute. Can we just wait.

5 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

7 Q. You showed us the axis along which the El Mujahedin Detachment was

8 operating in this sector. Can you please just draw the following axis, if

9 you know. Cevaljusa is further up, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Well, just that axis for us to see, an arrow and the name

12 Cevaljusa so we can see it's actually further up from Kvrge.

13 A. In that case we should move the map up.

14 Q. Can we do that? We can still do that?

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can't, madam.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, but that's not really

17 essential right now. I can ask you questions based on this map.

18 Q. In your statement to the OTP, you describe how you were observing

19 from Elevation 551 the movement of the El Mujahedin Detachment. It was

20 active in the direction of Kvrge; am I right? Where were you exactly?

21 Can you show us on the map?

22 A. I was observing the El Mujahid units from 559 [marks], the Gaj

23 facility. I saw a tank moving with the El Mujahid flag displayed, a black

24 flag with white letters.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I interrupt? In your question, Madam Vidovic,

Page 5386

1 you said the witness had told the Prosecution that he was watching from

2 Elevation 551, and the witness circled "599". The interpreter told

3 us "559". Which is which between those three?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. What was the elevation from which you observed, Witness?

6 A. 551, I saw the 2 Corps join at Prokop and the fighting around

7 Djurica Vis.

8 Q. Fine.

9 A. And then the fighting continued in the direction of Kvrge, and

10 then I moved to 559.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam Vidovic. I would like to be shown 551

12 on the map. I would like to be shown 559 on the map. I only see "599"

13 circled. I would like to be shown these other places that you are

14 referring to.

15 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness has already

17 circled "551" and he has circled "599".

18 Q. Is that what you said, Witness, not "559"?

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter couldn't hear the witness

20 because the speakers overlapped. Counsel continues ...

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] These were the two elevations

22 referred to. Thank you very much, Your Honours.

23 Q. So you described watching the El Mujahid unit arrive, and their

24 members were the first to break through the line being held by the Serb

25 forces at Kvrge; you do remember saying that, don't you?

Page 5387

1 A. I said what I saw, the advance of the El Mujahid unit with a tank

2 holding ten of their men. To the right of them, there was their

3 artillery, the El Mujahid, and they were moving towards Kvrge. There is a

4 gradient there, a slope, and I had an open view.

5 Q. All right. So you saw them perform these activities in the early

6 afternoon hours. When was all of this happening, what you've just told us

7 about?

8 A. I can't specify, but I think it was at about 1500 hours, but I

9 can't be more accurate than that.

10 Q. Fine. At any rate, it was early in the afternoon; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you please tell the Chamber, what is the distance between

13 Kesten and Kvrge?

14 A. Five kilometres, thereabouts.

15 Q. All right. Please circle "Kesten" on the map. Can you see it?

16 A. We should move it up.

17 Q. No, no, no, you can actually see it. It's all right.

18 A. Yes, my apologies, indeed [marks].

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine. Your Honours, I move that

20 this map be given an exhibit number.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: This map is admitted into evidence. May it please

22 be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 803.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5388

1 Q. In your evidence, you said that the members of the Serbian Army,

2 these 61 of them, were taken prisoner in the early afternoon; right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was it roughly at the same time as this, I mean, when you saw

5 those activities being performed by the El Mujahid unit towards Kvrge?

6 A. The battalion commander reported to me for the second time at

7 about 1400 hours. He said that it was all over and that they had taken

8 them away. After that, perhaps half an hour after that, was when they

9 started moving.

10 Q. That's what you saw; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was there any reason for you during the investigation to say to

13 the OTP investigator that this occurred at about 1300 hours? Was your

14 memory clearer back then or is your memory clearer now?

15 A. It's much clearer now. I was saying things back then 11 years

16 later.

17 Q. Now an even longer time has elapsed, so your memory is even

18 fresher [as interpreted]?

19 A. Yes, that's right, and I've since spoken with members of my own

20 unit who also helped jog my memory.

21 Q. So you were observing the movement of the El Mujahedin Detachment,

22 but you did not witness for yourself the capture of members of the Army of

23 Republika Srpska in Kesten; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This was something that Mr. Sehic informed you about, who was the

Page 5389

1 commander of the 5th Battalion; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. He told you that the Mujahedin practically seized the members of

4 the Serbian Army from them; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I'm going to remind you now about a part of your statement to the

7 investigators from the Prosecution, which you gave on the 12th and the

8 20th of February, and this is a conversation between you and the commander

9 of the fifth Battalion, Ahmet Sehic.

10 Your Honours, here we refer to tape 7.112A, page 1, lines 9 to 16

11 of the statement of the 20th of February, 2007. I'm going to quote

12 Michael Koehler:

13 "You say that you got information from Ahmet Sehic over the

14 telephone, and you say that you called him to come so he could provide

15 some more information to you?"

16 You, Fuad Zilkic:

17 "All right. When he called for the first time, I told him that

18 he, as the commander of the battalion, should do what was best or should

19 act in the best possible way in that specific time period. At that time,

20 there was a conflict between our units and parts of the El Mujahedin, and

21 when this was resolved, he should then come --"

22 And this is something unclear here. From what I understood of

23 your statement, you advised Mr. Sehic that he needed to avoid the conflict

24 with the Mujahedin; would you accept that?

25 A. I must make a few corrections here.

Page 5390

1 First of all, I don't recall the first time he called me over the

2 radio in Sarajevo, so his second call is approximately the way I already

3 described. But there are lots of mistakes in the translation in

4 Sarajevo. I can say that I was also confused, to a degree, but the

5 translation itself has a lot of incorrect parts.

6 The truth is after he called the first time via radio, when he

7 asked for a vehicle, that was when I told him -- I asked him who he had

8 out there, and he said it was the deputy battalion commander and also the

9 commander of the Company. I told him that he should also personally go

10 there, which is what he did.

11 His second call was when he told me, "Commander, it's all over,

12 they've taken them away." I suggested that he should go back there to the

13 actual location to see if he could do anything more without getting into a

14 conflict with the Mujahedin, because it was already too late and they had

15 already been taken away.

16 Q. But, in any case, would you accept that you told him that he

17 should take the decision regarding the prisoners? You left it up to

18 Commander Sekovic [as interpreted] to decide about the prisoners; is that

19 what you would agree with?

20 A. Well, I don't know what you could conclude, but the first thing,

21 specifically, when he called, there was nothing to indicate that the

22 Mujahedin would take over or seize the soldiers. I left him enough room

23 to act in the proper manner of a soldier and to treat these soldiers

24 accordingly. After his second call, when it was already too late, I told

25 him to go back again to see if there was anything else that he could do,

Page 5391

1 since he happened to be there.

2 Q. All right. Would you agree with me that the capture of 61 persons

3 is not something that happens every day?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. Even in wartime, this is something that doesn't happen that very

6 often?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. Especially the seizure of these prisoners, this is not an event

9 that took place every day?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. And would you agree that this was a negative experience for your

12 unit?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Very negative experience?

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. MUNDIS: I know, before it disappears off the screen, page 6

18 [sic], line 13, I believe, should read "Commander Sehic" and

19 not "Sekovic."

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, I hope that's noted. "Sehic" is S-E-H-I-C.

21 Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you to my learned friend,

23 Mr. Mundis. All right. So this last answer by the witness was recorded.

24 Q. I asked him if "This was a very negative experience for your

25 brigade," and you replied what?

Page 5392

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Now I would like to show

3 you some documents.

4 Could the witness please look at Exhibit 505.

5 Q. Would you agree with me that what you see on the monitor is

6 Exhibit 505? It's an order of the Commander of the 35th Division, and

7 it's an order of attack.

8 I would like the witness to look at the last page of the

9 document. In the English, also. Can we please zoom in on this part?

10 Yes, thank you, that bottom part.

11 Witness, can you see the signature here? Would you agree that --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you recognise the signature?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. It's the signature of Colonel Hasanagic, isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, were you able to see that this document was also sent to your

18 brigade, too?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now look at page

21 11 of the Bosnian version, and this is page 13 of the English version,

22 Your Honours.

23 Q. Witness, can you please look at paragraph 11. It has to do with

24 security support. Can you please look at this part underneath, where it

25 says "Security support" somewhere in the middle of this part of the

Page 5393

1 document? I'm going to quote the text for you. It says:

2 "In the area of responsibility, form a centre for the reception of

3 military prisoners of war in the Livade village sector. Take the military

4 prisoners of war with the captured documentation and hand them over to the

5 members of the military police company. Engage the military police at

6 check-points in keeping with the security support plan ..."

7 Mr. Zilkic, you received this order?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So you knew that there was a centre for the reception of military

10 prisoners of war in the village of Livade; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You were ordered to hand over these prisoners of war to the

13 military police?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How do you explain the fact you did not immediately issue the

16 instruction to Mr. Sehic that these prisoners of war had to be handed over

17 to the military police?

18 A. Mr. Sehic also received this order a little bit processed by my

19 Command, and he did have it in writing, so he also was in a position to be

20 informed about it and was able to inform all of his superiors about it.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, thank you.

22 Your Honours, can we put this document away. I would like the

23 witness to look at document P2501. Can we zoom in on the Bosnian version,

24 please, so that the witness can read what it says here.

25 Q. Witness, this is also a document that was shown to you by the

Page 5394

1 investigator when he talked to you in the statement that I mentioned to

2 you; do you recall that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you agree that this is a plan of security measures in the

5 preparation and conduct of combat operations and decisive defence for

6 September 1995, which was approved by someone instead of you; is that

7 correct?

8 A. No. This is a plan of security and protection measures in

9 preparation of conduct of combat operations for the battalion, because

10 instead of Semso Muminovic, who was the commander, it was signed by the

11 deputy commander, Mr. Adilovic.

12 Q. Well, you know both Mr. Muminovic and Mr. Adilovic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you agree that it refers to the Farz action, do you?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Now, can you please look at -- well, in any case, this is a plan

17 for one of the battalions of your brigade, in any event, the battalion

18 that you commanded?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And can we now look at page 2 of

21 this document. I would like you to focus on the last item. This is

22 actually item 13 of this document, and you can see specific paragraphs

23 here. Item 13 says -- and I believe you can also see it in the English

24 version. It says:

25 "Remove prisoners of war as far as possible from the combat zone

Page 5395

1 and do not hand them over to the El Mujahedin Detachment."

2 That is what it states here, does it not?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. So it is clear, isn't it, that your subordinates knew that

5 prisoners needed to be taken as far out of the combat zone as possible and

6 not be handed over to the El Mujahedin, as it is stated here, or El

7 Mujahids?

8 A. Well, I don't know why that would be clear.

9 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't understand you. Why wouldn't that be clear?

10 What do you mean?

11 A. That prisoners would need to be taken out of the zone and not

12 handed over to the El Mujahid.

13 Q. Well, it's clear that this is written in the document of your

14 battalion?

15 A. Yes, but I don't know where this order came from.

16 Q. Are you saying they didn't get it from you?

17 A. No, in any case, no.

18 Q. So, therefore, you did not issue the order for prisoners of war to

19 be taken as far away as possible from combat actions and that they are not

20 handed over to the El Mujahid Detachment?

21 A. Well, I didn't have any basis to issue such an order.

22 Q. Very well. Do you agree that an order like this could have gone

23 along the security line?

24 A. Well, that was the only way that this order would have proceeded.

25 Q. Well, in any case, your subordinates knew that prisoners should

Page 5396

1 not be handed over to the Mujahedin?

2 A. Well, I cannot speculate on what they thought.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, very well.

4 Your Honours, can this document be given an exhibit number,

5 please.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

7 please be given an exhibit number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 804.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now please look at

11 D650.

12 Q. Mr. Zilkic, I would first like you to look at the end of this

13 document.

14 Can we scroll down, please, so that we can see the signature on

15 the document.

16 A. Yes, it's my signature.

17 Q. All right, your signature.

18 And can the witness now look at the top part of the document so

19 that we can see that this is a document or order of the 328th Brigade.

20 This "Pasin Konak", what does that mean?

21 A. That is the Hajderovici sector, but before that, that was its

22 name.

23 Q. That was where your forward command post was, isn't it?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. And above, it says: "Command of the 35th Division, Rudace IKM"

Page 5397

1 So on the 14th of September 1995, you know that the IKM was at Rudace, is

2 that correct, of the 35th Division?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Very well. Now I would like you to pay attention to the paragraph

5 marked with the number 3, and based on this document it is evident that on

6 the 13th of September, as mentioned above, 1995, you received an order

7 about how to act with the prisoners of war, and would you agree that it

8 says, in item 3, that questioning of prisoners of war shall be carried out

9 as a priority by intelligence officers and then by military security

10 organs? Do you recall that order?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be

13 given an exhibit number, please.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

15 please be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 805.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask you

19 something else.

20 Q. During the combat actions of September 1995, from the 9th of

21 September thus onwards, you were in the area of combat actions; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, the Commander of the 35th Division, was somebody

25 that you were in constant contact with; is that right?

Page 5398

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you know that he was also in the combat actions sector?

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear what the witness

4 said.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. How do you mean? Witness, please, can you reply to my questions?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to repeat

9 the question.

10 Q. You knew that Mr. Hasanagic was in the sector of combat actions;

11 is that correct?

12 A. Yes, in the broader section of combat actions, yes.

13 Q. In any event, you knew that he was not sitting in Zavidovici; is

14 that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the witness to look

17 at document P2577. This is a document of the 35th Division from the 12th

18 of September, 1995. The document was drafted at the Babujle IKM, and

19 first it was delivered to you and then to other recipients. The document,

20 you will agree - it's short, you can easily look over it - is information

21 from the 35th Division that it was relocating the IKM from the present

22 sector to the sector of the Rudace village and is informing that the IKM

23 will become operational from 10.00 a.m. on the 13th. Do you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You and your brigade knew about this, didn't you?

Page 5399

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document

3 please be given an exhibit number.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 806.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can the witness be

9 shown Exhibit 480 now, please.

10 Q. Witness, you will probably remember this document. This is a

11 document from your brigade of the 13th of September, 1993 -- excuse me,

12 1995?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I would like you to look at the document where it says where the

15 document was dispatched to.

16 A. To the Command of the 35th Division.

17 Q. To the command post of the 35th Division; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And this is in Zavidovici, isn't it, the division's command post

20 is in Zavidovici or was in Zavidovici, wasn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now can we please look at the

23 last page of this document.

24 Q. You've already confirmed that this is your signature, and I can

25 see that there are no other indications, no other markings, no initials of

Page 5400

1 the person who drafted the document, based on which I conclude that you

2 drafted this document. Am I correct?

3 A. No.

4 Q. So why are there no initials of the person who drafted the

5 document, which you have in other orders, and I can show that to you?

6 A. I really couldn't say.

7 Q. I would, in any event, like you to look at page 2 of the document,

8 of the Bosnian version, and this is page 3 of the English version.

9 Can we please zoom in on paragraph marked "4". It states -- well,

10 this is a report of your brigade, and you said that you drafted it and

11 sent it. It says:

12 "On the 11th of September, 1995, the 2nd Company of the 5th

13 Battalion of the 328th Brigade captured 61 enemy soldiers and three

14 Serbian women in the Kesten village sector.

15 Members of the El Mujahid unit took charge of all the captives

16 except for two, while the two were turned over to the 328th Brigade's

17 military police."

18 So would you agree that you wrote that the prisoners were taken

19 over by the members of the El Mujahid Detachment?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Would you accept that this actually was not a true representation

22 of the events? As it is stated in this report, the events did not happen

23 in this way; they did not take charge of the prisoners, they seized the

24 prisoners? Would you accept that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5401

1 Q. You said that they attacked people, pointed their rifles at them.

2 Why is this not stated in this report, then?

3 A. This report was drafted on the 13th of September, so two days

4 after the combat actions. Before that, if you look, you will see that

5 each of these reports is called a "daily combat report." The command

6 organs of my brigade daily gathered information from the field and

7 informed the superior command. Extraordinary events would be sent out

8 urgently that same day, so I would like to look at the daily reports for

9 the 10th, 11th and 12th to see what they say. I signed a number of such

10 reports. You only have one, and I think this is -- this event was

11 reported in a number of daily reports.

12 Q. Like this, Mr. Zilkic: First of all, this is a document that was

13 shown to you by the Prosecutor, and the investigators from the

14 Prosecutor's Office discussed this document with you in detail. The first

15 time now you are mentioning that there are daily reports or interim

16 reports for the 10th and the 11th. Can you please tell us if it is your

17 testimony, Mr. Zilkic, that those reports for the 10th and the 11th, you

18 described these events; is that what you are saying?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right, very well. But why didn't you note down here that

21 these prisoners were seized from you?

22 A. In Sarajevo, I said that this was an unfortunate formulation, but

23 basically it doesn't change the substance of the matter.

24 Q. All right. Now I would like you to look at the sentence above

25 paragraph marked with the number "3" of this report.

Page 5402

1 Can we please scroll up, and in the Bosnian version here we can

2 see it, and it will be the previous page in the English version, Your

3 Honours.

4 A. Yes, I see it.

5 Q. It says:

6 "Supplementary information. The 1st Combat Battalion this morning

7 captured two Chetniks and turned them over to the El Mujahid Detachment."

8 Mr. Zilkic, first of all, I would like to ask you this: Let's

9 leave aside this information about the 61 captured soldiers for now, but

10 would you agree with me that this handing over of these two prisoners that

11 is referred to here, would you agree with me that this handing over was

12 opposite to the order that you had referring to the treatment of prisoners

13 of war, which you had received from the Division that I showed you before?

14 A. What it says here about the fact that they were handed over, where

15 it says "took over," "took charge," that's the same thing, isn't it?

16 Q. Well, I could accept that it means to seize someone, but why

17 didn't you state that explicitly right here, that they were seized?

18 A. I signed off these combat reports in the evening hours, having

19 returned from the front line or wherever I happened to be. I was tired.

20 Maybe I didn't verify every single piece of information, but the fact is

21 these reports were sent to the brigade, everything that was going on

22 within the area of responsibility of my brigade.

23 Q. All right, Mr. Zilkic. Let me put it this way: You had clear

24 orders to hand over these prisoners to the military police. I want to

25 tell you what my theory is. It's my responsibility to put it to you.

Page 5403

1 The way you wrote this supplement, this additional information,

2 one would say that it was a matter of routine for you, to hand over POWs

3 to the detachment. That's what it says:

4 "This morning, we captured two Chetniks, handed them over to the

5 detachment, 61 prisoners taken over by the detachment."

6 A. The way you interpret it, it may strike one as being precisely

7 that way, but we do know that the El Mujahid Detachment seized from the

8 military police some prisoners of Serbian ethnicity. If you look at this

9 order, the superior command should have reacted. Any unit -- could any

10 unit of the same rank have taken over prisoners from anyone else?

11 Q. We're getting there. One question at a time, please. But the

12 hand-over itself, the act itself, is that not contrary to the plans that

13 were designed by your own security organs involved in the Farz operation?

14 A. Yes, this seems to be exactly the opposite.

15 Q. All right. Let's go back to that date. You found out about what

16 had happened on the 11th of September, in the early morning hours; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You found out about the events of the 11th of September, 1995, in

19 the early morning hours, and you said, "Yes." Therefore, you reported on

20 this on the 13th of September, 1995. Why?

21 A. No. I said yesterday, didn't I, that as soon as I had been told

22 by the battalion commander, I reported to my superior command. The

23 response was, "All right, let's proceed as planned."

24 Q. Fine, fine. However, I am putting to you that regardless of this

25 oral information that you received, as brigade commander you should have

Page 5404

1 written an interim report on this event that same minute, which you simply

2 failed to do, failed to do?

3 A. This additional report was dispatched, and it talked about all of

4 this.

5 Q. And which day, exactly, was this?

6 A. The 10th -- or, rather, the 11th.

7 Q. Ah, right. So what you're trying to say is this: On the 11th,

8 you wrote about this in your report?

9 A. No, not me. Members of my unit did, the operations organ.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Zilkic.

11 Let me now go back to what you claim. You claim that you reported

12 on this event orally. I'll deal with this specially now, but I want to

13 ask you something else about this report.

14 You told me at one point during this cross-examination that you

15 were permanently in touch with Mr. Hasanagic, who was also in the area

16 where combat operations were taking place. Quite obviously, you knew that

17 he had his forward command post at Rudace. Why, then, do you send this

18 report to the Command of the 35th Division in Zavidovici if at this point

19 in time you know full well that the Command Staff were at the forward

20 command post, engaged in the fighting?

21 A. The 35th Division had taken the command post of the 13th, right?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. And this actually occurred on the 10th or, rather, on the 11th.

24 Q. That's right. And you also knew that it was at the Babilon

25 Forward Command Post; right?

Page 5405

1 A. Yes, I did know about that, but there's another detail. I'm not

2 sure if you're familiar with this. The Division Command sent a senior

3 officer to each of the units to supervise, to supervise the work of the

4 officers on the ground.

5 Q. Yes, I do know about that, but what I'm asking you is altogether a

6 different matter. Right now we're not going into the system of oral

7 reporting, but what I'm asking you is this: Why do you not send this

8 report to the forward command post, to the Babilon Forward Command Post,

9 or to Rudace, because you know that the brigade is there? I'm talking

10 about the one dated the 13th, right, am I not?

11 A. Madam, you're asking me about legal matters. The reality on the

12 ground is a little more difficult to explain. I never bothered to check

13 whether it said "command post" or "forward command post" to begin with.

14 It wasn't essential, was it?

15 Q. Mr. Zilkic, but the 14th of September -- the 14th of September was

16 the document that I showed you. This is an order which has to do with the

17 way the security organ were treating their prisoners. The next day, you

18 send it to Rudace. You don't, in fact, send it to the Zavidovici command

19 post, and you know for sure that nobody is there at the time; right? Do

20 you have an explanation for that?

21 A. Could we please bring that document back? It could only have been

22 produced based on the "ka meni" division order.

23 Q. Which document do you want brought back?

24 A. On the way the POWs were treated.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, can counsel and witness

Page 5406

1 please make pauses between questions and answers. Thank you very much.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Exhibit 805.

3 Q. Have a look, Mr. Zilkic. This is your order; right?

4 A. Can we please pull it up so I can see the signature. Yes. Now

5 look at the header. "Pursuant to order issued by the 3rd Corps," dated

6 the 13th of September, 1995 and the order of the 35th Division Command,

7 also the 13th:

8 "In order to process these documentation, prisoners of war, and to

9 make the best timely use of the intelligence gathered, I hereby issue the

10 following," and then whatever it goes on to state.

11 Q. That's not what I'm asking you about. Mr. Zilkic, that's not what

12 we're talking about. I'm telling you that on that day, you knew -- you

13 see on the 14th of September, you sent this document -- you see it says

14 here exactly -- you know it's the Rudace Forward Command Post, you know

15 where this Hasanagic -- have a look. The next day, the Rudace Forward

16 Command Post --

17 Your Honours, if we can just pull this up so we can see the bottom

18 of the document to see who it was delivered to.

19 You hereby inform all of your units about this document, but on

20 that day you know that the Division is at the Rudace Forward Command

21 Post. But be that as it may, I move that this document be given an

22 exhibit number, and -- well, I think it has one already. It has been

23 exhibited, in which case I would like to move on with my questions.

24 Can we please put this document away.

25 Last Friday, on the 9th of November, 2007, you said that you had

Page 5407

1 informed Mr. Hasanagic by radio immediately upon finding out about what

2 happened.

3 Your Honours, the page reference is 5314, line 25, and page 5315,

4 lines 1 through 3 of Mr. Zilkic's testimony on the 9th of November, 2007.

5 Let me remind you of something in your evidence or in your

6 statement about this same event, what you told the investigators, the OTP

7 investigators, on the 20th of February, 2007. And the tape reference is

8 7112-1, page 15. I quote. Mr. Koehler, the OTP investigator, is asking

9 you this:

10 "When did you first find out about this information? Did you

11 contact your superior command, the 35th Division, straightaway, or did you

12 wait first after this personal meeting when you had invited Ahmet Sehic to

13 come over and tell you?"

14 Answer:

15 "After that meeting, there was a briefing at the Panorama Hotel,

16 and I told them about the fact that there were 61 of them."

17 In fact, while testifying in answers to questions by the OTP on

18 the 9th of November, 2007, you talked about this meeting at the Panorama

19 Hotel. You said it was held on the 10th of September, the evening of the

20 10th of September, you were there to receive further instructions

21 regarding combat operations. Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes, I do remember that. However, I do have to say one thing. If

23 you look at the statement in its entirety, I always preface everything by

24 saying "as far as I remember." Those two days were almost entirely

25 unclear to me, fuzzy, if you like. It has been 12 years, after all.

Page 5408

1 Whatever it was that I stated could have been erroneously recorded,

2 mistranslated, or anything else, but the investigators themselves were

3 fully prepared and I didn't realise where all this was taking me.

4 Q. Fair enough. At the time, you said that at the meeting -- in your

5 testimony on Friday, you said that at the meeting held on the 10th of

6 September, the primary objective was to prepare any assignments for the

7 following day. You describe this event as happening after that briefing,

8 and what I'm putting to you is this: While preparing for this testimony,

9 Mr. Zilkic, you realise that those men, the 61 of them, had been taken

10 prisoner on the 11th of September, and then you tailored your story to fit

11 that. You didn't actually hear about this at the Panorama Hotel. You

12 informed Mr. Hasanagic by radio. You did not mention this radio that you

13 used to OTP investigators, not at any point in time, although the OTP

14 investigator returned to the same issues at least on three different

15 occasions. How do you explain that?

16 A. I made no reference to that, that's quite true, but I do have to

17 say that the investigation was being conducted by the OTP team as

18 planned. They said certain things, they expected certain answers, "Was

19 this the case," "Was this not the case?" I may have said this or that,

20 but at least in part I believe this to have been a form of extortion.

21 Q. Extortion, what do you mean?

22 A. My statement was forced, my hand was forced to say certain

23 things. I was coerced.

24 Q. So what is the discrepancy between what you said?

25 A. Well, the discrepancy is in my memory, in me reading my personal

Page 5409

1 documents and other documents.

2 Q. Mr. Zilkic, what exactly is this supposed to mean, your hand was

3 forced to say certain things, they twisted your hand, coercion; what do

4 you mean by that?

5 A. What I'm trying to explain is that I couldn't get my bearings as

6 far as the timeline was concerned.

7 Q. So they forced you to say certain things?

8 A. No, that's not what I said.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could the counsel and the

10 witness please make pauses between questions and answers. Otherwise,

11 interpretation will continue once they start making pauses. Thank you.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You said that many of these statements you made to the OTP were

14 actually recorded, despite your free will?

15 A. Well, you legal people may see it in a different light, but what I

16 believe is that some things were perhaps spoken rushly or prematurely.

17 Q. I am merely repeating what you said, Mr. Zilkic. I want it on the

18 record. Thank you.

19 Just one question before the break.

20 You do agree with me that the arrest and the seizure of these 61

21 prisoners is a major event in the context of the brigade?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And this is something that was worthwhile, in terms of being

24 recorded in the brigade's documents; right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5410

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to stop my

2 cross-examination at this point in time for the break, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

4 We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.

5 Court adjourned.

6 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me remind you again, Madam Vidovic and

9 Mr. Zilkic, please pause after question and answer to allow the

10 interpretation to take place. Okay, thank you very much.

11 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 D653, please. Can we please look at page 2 of this document.

14 This is an excerpt from a book called "The Duty Shifts of the

15 328th Brigade," and, Witness, can you please focus on the page that is now

16 in front of you, page 2. Paragraph 3, please. "On duty on the 10th of

17 November," or the 10th and the 11th.

18 Q. Do you see that, Witness? It says: "0715, Z/S times 2," and then

19 on duty between the 10th and 11th of September, 1992, Havidovic [phoen],

20 he died. Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know this man?

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the answer.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Very well. This is a member of your brigade; right?

Page 5411

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Right. Okay. Can you please --

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down, slow down, number one, and the

4 interpreter doesn't hear your answer, sir. Can you please speak a bit

5 loud and speak into the mic? Twice he didn't hear your answer.

6 And while I'm speaking, Madam Vidovic, you referred the witness to

7 a place that says "0715 Z/S." I'm trying to find it. If you could

8 please -- on the English side, I can't see it.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honours, that's on the

10 previous page. I was just telling the witness how he would find it in the

11 Bosnian. What is relevant is the first sentence: "Duty shift on --"

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the English quote was

13 unintelligible.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. And then I went on to ask him about Muhamed Ilic, whether he was a

16 member of his brigade, and the witness said, yes, as far as I heard --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the witness overlaps.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And then what I was told the

19 witness, it was on the previous page of the English.

20 Actually, now my associate is telling me that this was not

21 translated. What they translate for us is the bare minimum, as you know.

22 Q. Now, Witness, can you please look at the substance of what's on

23 this page. I wish to ask you the following: You'll be looking at this

24 page and the next -- and a number of other documents, too. Have a close

25 look. Between the 10th and 11th of September, 1995, is there any entry in

Page 5412

1 relation to the event involving the 61 prisoners of the Army of Republika

2 Srpska?

3 A. I can't see that.

4 Q. You've looked at it, and you can't find this entry?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Can you please now look at this page, the next page in the Bosnian

7 as well. This is about the 11th and the 12th of September, 1995. Have a

8 look, please. It's the next page of the Bosnian. The English is fine.

9 It is the next page of the Bosnian.

10 Could we please pull up the Bosnian, right, like that, for us to

11 see the bottom of the document. Thank you.

12 Now, Witness, do you agree that there is no entry in relation to

13 that on this page, either, the duty shift on the 10th and 11th of

14 September, 1995?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Another thing that I wish to ask you is: Down towards the bottom

17 of the page, there is the 2030 entry, the second-but-last line. It reads:

18 "Bagdad Savo, two helicopters, relation --" all right, I can see,

19 and then it says:

20 "Delivered to the Rudace IKM."

21 Do you see that?

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the answer.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So do you agree that in your brigade they know that the forward

25 command post was at Rudace, the forward command post of the 35th Division,

Page 5413

1 and that information was being conveyed or forwarded there; would you

2 accept that?

3 A. No, I don't know which forward command post, doesn't say the 328th

4 or whatever the command post.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters's note, the interpreter can't hear

6 the witness.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, can you please speak louder. The

8 interpreters cannot hear you, sir.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness, it's important that we clarify this issue. There is a

11 reference there to the Rudace Forward Command Post. What about your

12 brigade, did it have a forward command post at the Rudace as well?

13 A. No. It was at a distance of three or four kilometres from Rudace.

14 Q. Well, why do you go on to say, then, whether -- whether -- whether

15 the 328th or another one -- perhaps what I'm asking you is this: Who

16 had -- allow me, please. Take it easy. Who had the forward command post

17 at Rudace?

18 A. Depends on the date, as I said. The Division had it as of the

19 13th.

20 Q. And up until then?

21 A. There was normally someone around, a battalion or someone else.

22 Q. Fine, fine, Witness.

23 Can we turn to the next page of this document, please.

24 Please have a close look. Do you see any reference to what

25 happened about the 61 prisoners?

Page 5414

1 The next page in the English, please.

2 A. No, not that I can see.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Your Honours, I move that this document be given an exhibit

5 number.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

7 please be given an exhibit number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 807.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can put this away now.

10 Can the witness now please be shown D654. For the record, this is

11 an excerpt from the operations log of the 328th Brigade, the Hajderovici

12 Forward Command Post.

13 Page 3 of the Bosnian, please, and page 2 of the English.

14 Q. Witness, I'll ask you the same question that I asked you before.

15 What about the 61 prisoners; do you see any reference to them anywhere in

16 this operations log?

17 Do you know Mr. Rifet Begic and Alimanovic?

18 A. One thing that I don't understand here is officer on duty where

19 and assistant where? I don't see any references to that.

20 Q. It's all right, maybe you don't, but my question was a different

21 one. Do you know Mr. Begic, Rifet?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. A member of your brigade?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On duty at the -- I didn't hear your answer.

Page 5415

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. You don't know. Oh, fine, okay. I will still need to ask you to

3 tell me if there is any entry on this page in relation to the 61

4 prisoners, regardless of who was on duty where.

5 A. Not that I can see.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine. Can the witness now please

7 look at the next page of this document.

8 Q. I'll ask you the same thing. Please have a look. Any reference

9 to the 61 prisoners?

10 A. None that I can see.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine. Now please let's move on to

12 the next page, the 12th and the 13th. Those are the dates. Please bring

13 back the previous page in the English. That was the right page. Thank

14 you.

15 Q. Witness, it reads:

16 "Duty on 12th and the 13th, 1995. Duty officer: Cebic, Esad."

17 Do you know this person?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. A member of your brigade?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. Have a look, please. The entry below this one, it

22 reads: "A Chetnik was captured in the sector adjoining the other corps.

23 He admitted that in the surroundings of Borovci village, there were around

24 40 well-armed Chetniks and that they were attempting a breakthrough from

25 their encirclement."

Page 5416

1 A Chetnik was caught here, that's what was recorded; right? You

2 agree with that?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. All right. So obviously the brigade is here recording information

5 regarding POWs; that much is obvious, right?

6 A. Yes, one particular piece of information like that is being

7 recorded here. We see that.

8 Q. All right. If we go through this entire book, we won't find a

9 single reference to the 61 prisoners, I mean at least in the relevant part

10 that we've gone through; you agree with that?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document

13 please be given a number.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

15 please be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 808.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness look at D655 now,

19 please. For the transcript, this is an excerpt from the war diary of the

20 328th Brigade.

21 Q. Witness, you will recall this document was also something that the

22 Prosecutor showed you during proofing.

23 Can we look at the second page of the diary. It's the entry for

24 the 11th of September, 1995. Could we zoom in, please. This is -- the

25 bottom part of the page for the 11th.

Page 5417

1 Can you please look at this, Witness. You know Mr. Asim Parlic;

2 do you not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. He's a member of your brigade, and we can see his signature at the

5 side; is it right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Very well. Can you please look at this part here, the first part

8 at the bottom relating to the 11th of September. Do you agree that the

9 capture of that group of 61 Serb prisoners is not mentioned?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now look at the

12 following page, please. The English version is all right. If you can

13 just move to the next page of the Bosnian version. And can we look at the

14 top of the page.

15 Q. Can you see if the capture is mentioned on this page?

16 And if we scroll down the document so that we see the bottom of

17 the page, please.

18 I would particularly like you to pay attention to the last three

19 lines for the 13th of September, 1995, where it says, I am going to read

20 it:

21 "Last night and this morning a meeting was held in the Hajderovici

22 Ops. Centre relating to the new area of responsibility and the subsequent

23 tasks. The 1st Battalion captured two Chetniks and handed them ..."

24 If we can look at the next page:

25 " ... And handed them ..."

Page 5418

1 Next page, please, in the Bosnian version:

2 " ... Handed them over to the El Mujahedin Detachment."

3 Witness, now, you'll recall that this is that same fact that we

4 saw in your report of the 13th of September, 1995, isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. It also says that they were handed over to the detachment?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you agree that the group of 61 prisoners is not mentioned at

9 all that you testified about, it's not mentioned anywhere; do you agree?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Now I would like to ask you the following: You agreed with me

12 that this was an out-of-the-ordinary event, the capture of 61 persons and

13 then the seizure of that same group of persons, and you said that this was

14 a negative experience for your brigade. How do you then explain that in

15 any of the books, the war diary, the duty logbook, the operations diary

16 from the brigade, none of these documents mentions this particular

17 incident. How can you explain that?

18 A. Well, I can't explain it.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document

20 please be given an exhibit number.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

22 please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 809.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now please look at

Page 5419

1 Exhibit 481.

2 Q. Do you remember this document? It's a document of the 328th

3 Brigade Command of the 16th of October, 1995, and the document bears the

4 heading "Analysis of Preparations and Execution of Combat Operations,

5 Farz-95"?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In response to the Prosecutor's question, you've already said that

8 you signed this document; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now please look at

11 page 10 of this document in the Bosnian version and page 8 of the English

12 version. That's it. And can we please zoom in on the top part of the

13 page.

14 Your Honours, this is immediately above -- or actually in the

15 English version it's just below this big heading, "Captured MTS."

16 Q. Witness, can you please look at the document here where it

17 says: "Captured MTS, Z/S," and then you have the following, I quote --

18 well, this is your report for September 1995, and you say:

19 "During the past combat actions, according to the Farz-95 plan of

20 the operation, around 65 aggressor soldiers were captured as well as the

21 following quantities of materiel and equipment:"

22 And then that is listed.

23 So during the analysis of the Farz action, you wrote that your

24 brigade captured 65 aggressors, soldiers; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5420

1 Q. In this analysis, you did not write either that they were taken

2 away from you or seized?

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness's

4 answer.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, will you please answer? The

6 interpreters didn't hear you.

7 A. No, I don't see that this is written anywhere.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. And you didn't even write that you had handed them over to the El

10 Mujahedin Detachment; would you agree with me?

11 A. This is a staff analysis, so ...

12 Q. All right. It's a staff analysis, but analysis of the staff of

13 your brigade, which --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Now I would like you to look at page 12 of this

16 document, which is page 10 of the English version. I would like you to

17 look at this paragraph with the title "Negative Experiences." Can you

18 please look at that part of the document.

19 Mr. Zilkic, you agreed with me that this event with 61 prisoners

20 was a negative experience for your brigade, a very negative experience at

21 that; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And do you agree with me that that event involving the capture of

24 61 prisoners and this seizure is not even included as a negative

25 experience of the members participating in the Farz operation; this only

Page 5421

1 discusses booty and the preservation of material goods, is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How can you explain the fact that this seizure is not even part of

4 the report as a negative experience; what you are saying is that your

5 brigade had 65 prisoners, actually, that is how you're presenting it?

6 A. Well, I can explain it only by saying that the mention of the 65

7 captured persons -- or, rather, that the El Mujahid was the bearer of

8 assault actions and that as such, they considered them to be their own

9 prisoners, that they took them away, they seized them from us, after which

10 we reported this to our superior command, and we informed them about all

11 the prisoners and said, amongst other things, that we had captured them.

12 Q. But, Mr. Zilkic, it says here that you -- your brigade captured

13 these 65 people. It doesn't say that they were seized by the El Mujahid.

14 A. No, it doesn't say that.

15 Q. How do you explain that?

16 A. It means that several times the superior command was informed that

17 the El Mujahid -- well, I cannot say now "seize," but the way we formulate

18 it was that they had taken charge of or were handed over.

19 Q. Why didn't you say that in the analysis of the combat actions,

20 which is a key document, if this is how it was, and that you had reported

21 about that?

22 A. Well, I cannot say why that was. I did not draft that document.

23 The document was drafted by the staff. I cannot say why this was not said

24 in that particular way.

25 Q. But you signed the document, and you knew about the seizure of the

Page 5422

1 65 prisoners. The staff need not necessarily have known about it, but you

2 knew about it.

3 A. Well, the staff had to have known it as well, and I knew it too.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. Zilkic.

5 Your Honours, I think this document already has a number, and

6 perhaps it can be put away.

7 Q. And about this, Mr. Zilkic, I would like to ask you the

8 following: Actually, you and your brigade, in its composition, had the

9 Asim Camdzic unit, which was not that different from the members of the El

10 Mujahedin Detachment; is that correct?

11 A. I don't understand this assertion.

12 Q. Perhaps you will understand me more clearly after I show you a

13 document.

14 Could the witness see P2729, please. For the record, this is a

15 document of the Military Security Service of the 35th Division of the 24th

16 of October, 1995, and what is described here is the unit named "Asim

17 Camdzic," and the document states -- can you please look at -- Your

18 Honours, can we scroll down the document so that both in the English and

19 the Bosnian we can see the bottom of this page. Okay, very well. And in

20 the English version, we need to look at the following page, please. The

21 Bosnian version, we need to look at the bottom of the page.

22 So that we don't lose too much time and so that I don't have to

23 read too much from the document, I would like to draw your attention to

24 the part where it says:

25 "They are quite independent ..."

Page 5423

1 I am talking about the Asim Camdzic unit:

2 "They are providing their own logistics and financial funds for

3 themselves, all the captured war booty, the MTS vehicles, they are selling

4 themselves and distributing the proceeds because of the basic assumption

5 of its closeness and links to the El Mujahedin unit, the same from the

6 last division of the war booty, gave each member 250DM each, and the

7 commander of the 328th, Fuad Zilkic, is much respected by them and he

8 commands and makes these agreements through the Commander Remzo Sinanovic

9 or Huso Garandzic [phoen]."

10 So Mr. Sinanovic was the commander of the Asim Camdzic unit; is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that is a unit from your brigade, isn't it?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. And that unit was very close to the El Mujahedin unit; would you

16 agree with that?

17 A. Yes, I would in one thing. Members of this unit applied

18 religious regulations 24 hours a day, and on that basis they were closer

19 to the ideas of the El Mujahedin.

20 Q. Mr. Zilkic, do you recall at the end of your testimony I was

21 asking you about other brigades of the 35th Division?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you agree that not the 27th, the -- the 329th did not have

24 these religious units in their midst?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 5424

1 Q. And this unit, you will agree, the Asim Camdzic unit, from the

2 beginning of its operation, was part of the units that were under your

3 command?

4 A. Yes, but I must say that by assuming my duties, I already found it

5 in the establishment. It was already part of the establishment when I

6 assumed my duties.

7 Q. Which duties?

8 A. The duties of the Commander of the Municipal Staff.

9 Q. All right, very well. And then you went to the 320th?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And the Asim Camdzic unit also joined the 320th?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And then to the 328th, and that unit also went to the 328th; is

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes, all according to orders by superior commands.

16 All right, very well. Now I would like --

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, Your Honours, can this

18 document be given an exhibit number, and then ...

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

20 please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 810.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now look at P2377.

24 Q. I would now like to talk about the situation in your 328th Brigade

25 in general. We're talking about the 10th of August, 1995. Please, can

Page 5425

1 you read the first segment here, if you can. If not, I'm going to quote.

2 Can you please look -- well, you can see this first excerpt:

3 "The latest events in the zone of responsibility ..."?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. " ... reflect a number of problems in the control of the 328th

6 Brigade."

7 And, Witness, would you agree that you actually had very serious

8 problems in that brigade, that the situation in that brigade in this

9 period was very serious?

10 A. Well, I agree that the brigade was over-stretched that whole

11 month, that it was exhausted, and that there was a series of factors that

12 affected the control -- the system of control -- command and control.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Can the witness now look

14 at the last page of this document. We are talking about page 7 of the

15 English version.

16 Q. Can you please look at this last large document [as interpreted].

17 It gives an assessment of the situation in your brigade, and at some

18 point -- it's the fourth line from the top. It says the main

19 characteristic in the battalion is the fact that the RiK

20 command-and-control system does not function at the level of the platoon

21 commanders, the company commanders and also on the level of the battalion

22 commands. The company commanders are rarely seen at the positions, and

23 their coordination with the battalion commander is weak. And the question

24 of numbers is something that is a burden. And I'm interested in the last

25 sentence:

Page 5426

1 "Disciplinary measures towards those who commit certain things are

2 either not applied or not in accordance with the rules."

3 Your Honours, that is on the following page of the English

4 version.

5 What I would like to ask you now, Witness, is this: Is it true

6 that the organ of the 35th Division, the security organ, did carry out an

7 inspection of your division?

8 A. I know that these reports were sent, but I also know that they

9 never actually toured the lines of defence in the field.

10 Q. And is it correct, what it says here regarding the application of

11 disciplinary measures towards perpetrators?

12 A. No, that is not correct. All those who violated rules were

13 disciplined, and my security organ informed me that orders were issued

14 that measures be applied.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 Your Honours, can this document be given an exhibit number,

17 please.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

19 please be given an exhibit number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 811.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like you to look at document

23 P2403.

24 Q. Witness, would you agree -- can you look at this. This is a

25 report -- or actually it's an act of the Command of the 35th Division of

Page 5427

1 the 16th of August, 1995, and it's related to the elimination of

2 weaknesses that were perceived. Can you please look at this introductory

3 paragraph:

4 "Pursuant to the order of the 3rd Corps Commander of the 10th of

5 August, 1995, and with the aim of removing the weaknesses observed in the

6 328th BBR, the 35th Command hereby submits the following report on the

7 measures undertaken and carried out so far."

8 I just want to ask you: You know, surely, don't you, that the 3rd

9 Corps Command ordered the application of measures in order to eliminate

10 weaknesses in your brigade; you must know that, right?

11 A. I know what the order was, and I must say that all of these

12 negative things were, conditionally speaking -- for example, the weakening

13 of command and control was something that happened after the loss of 685

14 facility, and in fact after the capture of the newly-attained line, as of

15 the 21st of July, 1995, I also reported to the Command that my brigade was

16 not in a position to secure these lines itself, after which I was issued

17 an order by the corps commander himself to keep the entire brigade on the

18 lines throughout that whole month without any relief, replacements or

19 anything like that, with the proviso that the lines achieved should be

20 fortified.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, thank you.

22 Your Honours, can this --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to say that this

24 situation was the result of prior combat actions.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5428

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is meant by "685 facility"? Is that a

2 specific elevation or what?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's a facility in the

4 field, so it's an elevation that the El Mujahid captured in their

5 actions. And since it was my task to take up and fortify the

6 newly- achieved lines and to carry out decisive defence, after several

7 days in an enemy attack, that facility was lost.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness, for that

10 explanation.

11 Can this document be given an exhibit number, Your Honours,

12 please, and I would like the witness to look at another document, please.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

14 please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 812.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to look at

18 Exhibit 596.

19 Q. Witness, this document refers -- well, it's a document of the 35th

20 Division, drafted on the 17th of August, 1995, and it talks about the

21 combat readiness of the Command of units of the 35th Division. I would

22 like you to look at the second paragraph. It talks about analysis of

23 events in the area of responsibility of the 328th Division, precisely what

24 you actually said just now about the fall of the lines, and it talks

25 about, you will agree, that after the lines that were attained, the

Page 5429

1 security organ has come to the conclusion that the RiK Command has totally

2 failed, that the monitoring of the execution of measures and orders does

3 not exist, very pronounced problems of false reporting, especially

4 referring to the engagement of manpower in the brigades, non-existence of

5 a line of control and command from the battalion command towards the

6 company commanders and platoon commanders, and then they state the

7 familiarity, abuse of positions, especially pronounced in the battalion

8 commands, and so on and so forth.

9 Please, do you agree that here it says that there is no control of

10 the implementation of ordered measures and actions?

11 A. I cannot agree with that for one simple reason. The stabilisation

12 of the situation was something that I carried out with my superior

13 officers, battalion and company commanders who were on the lines of

14 defence around the clock. A lot of these things that are written down are

15 not correct, they're not realistic. They did not tour the lines of

16 defence.

17 Q. Very well, Witness.

18 A. I have to say this, too: After losing a part of the territory, my

19 units set up new lines of defence by itself and held them for a month,

20 until the next combat actions. This was something that could not have

21 been achieved without the command-and-control system. There were many

22 elements that had a negative effect, yes, that is correct.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down, slow down.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour.

25 Q. I actually want to know about a single detail. How do you comment

Page 5430

1 on this, pronounced problems of false reporting; what's your comment on

2 that?

3 A. I refuse to comment on what they wrote or what they may or may not

4 have meant. I don't know what they had in mind, but I do know that they

5 were not familiar with the reality of the situation as it was on the

6 ground. Saying this, that the command-and-control system was not

7 functioning, well, somebody should go there and see for themselves,

8 whether it was functioning and operating well or not.

9 Q. All right. Let me ask you this: Do you agree that this is

10 information that is being passed along the security line; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Would you agree that your own security organ was involved in this?

13 A. I would agree to some extent.

14 Q. So your brigade sends information on to the security organ of the

15 35th Division, that sort of thing?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Therefore, an organ from your brigade, the security organ, is on

18 the ground, right, you agree with that, together with you?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Now, Your Honours, could

21 we please put this document away, and I would like the witness to look at

22 2522, P2522. My apologies, P2522.

23 Q. Mr. Zilkic, this is a document produced by your own brigade. It's

24 an order, one would say, dated the 5th of September, 1995.

25 Could we please see the signature.

Page 5431

1 Is that your signature?

2 A. Yes.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine. Could we please see the top

4 of the document. That is what matters, paragraph 1, item 1 of the English

5 version.

6 Q. As you see, Mr. Zilkic, this order is in reference to the Asim

7 Camdzic unit, something we talked about a while ago, and the military

8 police of the 328th Brigade. On the 5th of September, 1995, you issued an

9 order for the Asim Camdzic unit and the military police of your brigade,

10 in the area of responsibility of the 1st and 5th Battalions of the

11 brigade, to withdraw back to base and to act upon any orders arriving from

12 the commander, in other words, your orders; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So on the 5th of September, you pulled out the military police

15 from the area covered by the 5th Battalion, which is where the incident

16 took place, right, the Kesten area, Kesten village? That was their area

17 of responsibility, was it not?

18 A. No, not from Kesten village. It could only have been from behind

19 the lines where they were at the ready.

20 Q. Fine, fine, but you had command over that military police

21 component, so --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: This document is dated the 5th of September, but it

23 orders that the action be completed by the 3rd of September. I'm looking

24 at the English, if you could scroll down.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please just zoom in on the

Page 5432

1 Bosnian. Your Honours, it says the pullout is to be completed, and what

2 they mean is the units, by the 3rd. It's possible that there is something

3 wrong about the date of this document.

4 Q. Is that a possibility, Witness, that you would accept? The date

5 says "the 5th of September," and then it says "pull out by 1200 hours on

6 the 3rd."

7 A. Yes, I do agree with that.

8 Q. So it must be an error, right, concerning the date?

9 A. Probably.

10 Q. All right. What I find to be important is this: You had this

11 military police unit under your control, the 328th Brigade; right? There

12 was a military police unit under your command. How many?

13 A. A platoon.

14 Q. That is ...?

15 A. About 30 men.

16 Q. All right. My question now is this: At any point in time as that

17 event was unfolding -- all right, sir. You were informed at one point

18 this is what happened, some prisoners were seized, taken away, whatever.

19 Did it ever occur to you to use that unit in this particular situation?

20 A. This unit was deployed as previously ordered by the Assistant

21 Commander for Security of the 35th Division, in coordination -- actually,

22 their assignment was defined and they were to work with the Military

23 Police Company of the 35th Division. They were to serve as a protection

24 unit. This was down the horizontal chain of command and control by the

25 security organ.

Page 5433

1 Q. Witness, on the 5th of September, 1995, please, it reads:

2 "Pull the unit out from the areas covered by the 1st and 5th

3 Battalions, and continue to carry out any further assignments as ordered

4 by the commander."

5 And that's you?

6 A. Yes, but the military police platoon was used. It was used in

7 combat operations that were to follow.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Your Honours, can this

9 document please be exhibited.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

11 please be given an exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 813.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please have

15 Exhibit 586. These are rules governing the work of the military police.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: How much longer are you still going to be, madam?

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am drawing to a

18 close. I will need, at the very most, about ten minutes more. I'll be

19 very brief.

20 Let's try to save some time, therefore.

21 Q. Witness, you know what the rules are governing the work of the

22 military police, don't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 6

25 displayed to the witness. This is page 5 in the English.

Page 5434

1 Could we pull this down slightly so we can see the control

2 part, "Control and command over military police."

3 Q. Do you agree that it reads here:

4 "Command and control of the military police is exercised by the

5 commanding officer ..."

6 Please go to the next page of the Bosnian. I think the English is

7 fine.

8 All right:

9 "Command and control of the military police is exercised by the

10 commanding officer of the military unit or institution to whose

11 establishment structure the military police unit belongs or has been

12 attached."

13 You will agree with me, won't you, that you were the commander of

14 a brigade in which an incident took place; you were the commanding officer

15 of that brigade where this incident took place? Do you accept that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You will agree with me, won't you, that this rule applied

18 throughout the war, and it clearly says that you were in command of the

19 military police unit of your brigade, you were in control of that unit;

20 right?

21 A. In professional terms, it was the officer of the Military Security

22 Service, and it was at his proposal that the unit was deployed and told to

23 carry out a certain mission, protect units and territory.

24 Q. Yes, that is quite accurate. I see that you have got this fully

25 worked out.

Page 5435

1 Your Honours, both the witness and I were talking about paragraph

2 8, and I'm talking about the last sentence of paragraph 8:

3 "A decision on the combat use of the military police unit is taken

4 by the unit commander at the proposal of the competent senior military

5 security service officer."

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Yes, Witness, indeed, so, please, the situation is such that you

8 are free to take a decision right away, if that is what the situation

9 calls for, in order to have some sort of a solution, regardless of this

10 proposal mentioned here.

11 Secondly, you will agree with me that you had a security organ who

12 at the time was, in fact, somewhere in the field; right?

13 A. Yes, and that was because I sent them over to check what was going

14 on.

15 Q. All right. Please, what I'm putting to you is this: It was your

16 responsibility to immediately make use of that military police unit? I am

17 putting that to you. Your responsibility was to straightaway make use of

18 that military police unit in order to protect those people; if not,

19 perhaps at least to try and see what was going on and what had become of

20 those people. That is what I'm putting to you, Mr. Zilkic.

21 A. That is what you're putting to me, but if an entire battalion was

22 unable to protect them, how do you expect that a military police platoon

23 would have been able to accomplish that?

24 Q. Did you at least try to use it in that way, Mr. Zilkic?

25 A. I had ordered the security organ to take whatever was in their

Page 5436

1 power, whatever measures they could.

2 Q. Oh, right, I see. Can you tell us which precise security organ;

3 first name, last name? Who?

4 A. I think I ordered directly to Enes Malicbegovic to go to provide

5 any technical assistance to his own security organ on the ground.

6 Q. Fine, fine. That's your testimony, that's your evidence. Can you

7 please just now look at D656.

8 Did you ever ask Mr. Malicbegovic what he had found there?

9 A. No.

10 Q. As you see, what we have before us right now is a document

11 produced by the Intelligence Service of Republika Srpska. The date is the

12 8th of October, 2002. This is not a lengthy document. Could you please

13 read it? I do wish to ask you a question or two about this.

14 This is about information obtained by the Intelligence Service of

15 Republika Srpska. Could we see the date in both the Bosnian and the

16 English, the date for this report.

17 So the date is the 8th of October, 2002. This document talks

18 about information obtained by the Intelligence Service of Republika Srpska

19 to the effect that at the so-called "12th Kilometre" there was a mass

20 grave where members of the Army of Republika Srpska were buried who had

21 been captured when the village of Vozuca was taken in Zavidovici

22 Municipality at some point during 1995. The document goes on to say this,

23 and I'm trying to save time, Witness. That's the purpose of this

24 exercise:

25 "The prisoners were taken in military trucks to the Zenica KPD."

Page 5437

1 It also says that as they were passing through the village of

2 Kucice, Zavidovici Municipality, they were intercepted and stopped by

3 local Muslim extremists led by a man named Zilkic, and taken to the

4 abandoned estate of Andrija Stankovic, where they were killed and buried

5 in two mass graves.

6 It goes on to state that a certain man named Edin Porobic used a

7 dredging machine to dig up the bodies, after which he took them and buried

8 them in a mass grave in the village of Gostovici.

9 Then on the 8th of October, 2002, the bodies were still there.

10 Mr. Zilkic, any comments?

11 A. The first I hear of it, and I've certainly never seen this

12 document before.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please pull this down a

14 little.

15 Q. You see that the document quotes three persons as sources.

16 Mr. Zilkic, I'm telling you now that a grave was dug or dug up in this

17 area, 2005 or 2006, I think, in the Gostovici area. It was what they

18 normally called "a secondary grave." Any comments?

19 A. All I can say is I simply don't believe this to be the case.

20 Q. What is it that you can't believe?

21 A. That this is accurate information. First of all, I don't know who

22 this "Zilkic" is who is referred to here. Secondly, I can't believe that

23 Edin Porobic did anything of the kind. He wasn't born in 1964. This

24 information is erroneous, it's random.

25 Q. Mr. Zilkic, you remember that at the beginning of my

Page 5438

1 cross-examination, I asked you if there was another military commander in

2 or around Zavidovici named "Zilkic"?

3 A. Yes, and I said there was none.

4 Q. All right. So who could this be, this military commander, leader

5 of the extremists, leader of people like Asim Camdzic?

6 A. These are mere insinuations.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

8 Your Honours, I have --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

10 MR. MUNDIS: I would object to the characterisation of "military

11 commander." That doesn't at least appear in the English version. It

12 talks about stopped by the local Muslim extremist led by a certain

13 Zilkic. There's no reference in the English version, at least, to this

14 Zilkic referred to in the document as being any kind of military

15 commander.


17 Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute. Your Honours, I will

19 tell you what the Bosnian says.

20 "On the way through the village of Kucice, Zavidovici

21 Municipality, they were intercepted and stopped by local Muslim extremists

22 led by a man named 'Zilkic'."

23 Your Honours, I didn't say "Commander Zilkic," I said "a man named

24 Zilkic," but, okay, led by Zilkic, led by Zilkic.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, if you look at line 20 of --

Page 5439

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I accept, I accept. I

2 accept, Your Honour.


4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I accept.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally cannot accept any of

6 this.

7 Firstly, Kucice, these could only have been refugees staying

8 there. This is a village from which the Serbs had expelled everyone.

9 Secondly, nobody would have taken anybody through Kucice on their

10 way to the KP Dom in Zenica.

11 Thirdly, whoever it was taken there had absolutely nothing

12 whatsoever to do with me.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Zilkic, I hear you.

14 Your Honours, can this document please be exhibited.

15 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution would object, Your Honour. There is

16 no foundation based on this witness's testimony. In fact, the witness has

17 explicitly repudiated and rejected what's contained in the document, and

18 we would submit there is no proper foundation for this document to be

19 admitted through this witness.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think there is a

22 very good foundation for this, since there is reference here to the last

23 name "Zilkic." The witness commented, and he did refute that. That much

24 is true. But it still reads "Zilkic," it still reads "Muslim extremists,"

25 which is something that I've spoken of a lot, Asim Camdzic, that sort of

Page 5440

1 thing. I talked to the witness about this.

2 No matter whether the witness refused this or not, this is a

3 document which I'm using to test the witness's credibility, Your Honour.

4 And of course we can't expect a single witness to accept a document that

5 is likely to challenge or question their credibility. This is a document

6 testing the credibility of a certain witness, which in my opinion

7 constitutes a more-than-sufficient foundation for this document to be

8 exhibited.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Well, if I may respond, Your Honour.

10 Certainly, the witness was asked about the document. Madam

11 Vidovic put extensive questions to the witness, she read parts of the

12 document to the witness. That's certainly part of the record. The

13 witness has answered the questions, and there's no independent basis for

14 this document coming into evidence, there's no proper foundation.

15 Certainly, he was asked about it. There are parts of the document

16 that are now in the record in the form of those questions and answers, and

17 the Prosecution would submit that there is no proper foundation for this

18 document to come in through this witness.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is an

20 exceptionally important document, in terms of the indictment, an

21 exceptionally important document. As I said, it is being used to test a

22 witness's credibility. The document also refers to an event, a

23 development, that is very much the subject of the indictment.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Well, if -- I mean, the document can't go in for two

25 purposes, I would respectfully submit. If it's going in to challenge the

Page 5441

1 witness's credibility, then that does not necessarily mean that it's going

2 in for the truth of what's contained in the document.

3 I'm also -- it's a bit unclear, at least from where I'm sitting or

4 at this moment standing, how this document relates to an important core

5 issue in this case. Without any more -- and I don't believe this witness

6 is in a position to testify about that. I don't believe that this

7 document necessarily goes to any core issue in this case.

8 I mean, at one point we're talking about the document being

9 tendered for the purpose of challenging the witness's credibility. On the

10 other hand, it would appear as though my learned colleague is suggesting

11 that the document might be relating to something else. And I don't think

12 there's any proper foundation under either of those prongs for this

13 document to come in at this time through this witness.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document has not been grounded, according to

15 the Bench. There is no proper basis for linking it to this witness, and

16 it cannot be admitted, therefor.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can it be marked for

18 identification then, please?

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document will then be marked for

20 identification. May it please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI 814.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this brings my

24 cross-examination to an end. I have no further questions, and I wish to

25 thank you for the time that you have granted me.

Page 5442

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

2 We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 6.00.

3 Court adjourned.

4 --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

7 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions at this

8 time.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 Judge?

11 JUDGE LATTANZI: No questions.


13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zilkic, Defence counsel showed you a document

15 that was on the screen only for a short period of time, so I didn't quite

16 have time to see the significance of it, but I would like you to have a

17 look at that document again, and it is Exhibit 808, if the Registrar would

18 be kind enough to put it up.

19 I think it was supposed to be the duty shift log of the 328th

20 Brigade. And it was on the page where -- and maybe Defence counsel can

21 help me. It was on the page where there was a mentioning of one Chetnik

22 soldier captured.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 5 of the Bosnian. Just a

24 minute, Your Honour. Page 3 in the English.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right. There we are. It's on the duty shift on

Page 5443

1 the 12th to 13th September 1995, and we are being informed that a Chetnik

2 and one captured in the 4th sector point of convergence with the 2nd

3 Corps, and that this man confessed that there were 40 well-armed Chetniks

4 near the Borovci village and that they wanted to break out of

5 encirclement.

6 This obviously comes after the events that took place on the 11th

7 of September, but my question to you is if the reference to these 40

8 well-armed Chetniks could be a reference to the group of Chetnik soldiers

9 who actually were captured on the 11th of September.

10 A. No, Your Honour. It says here that a Chetnik was captured in a

11 sector adjoining the other corps, which means the Kvrge sector. He was

12 questioned and he said that in the surroundings of Borovci village, which

13 had been taken in a previous attack, that we had passed them, that they

14 had remained behind, and that they were now trying to break through from

15 this encirclement, which means that they would have tried to break through

16 our lines and link up with Ozren. So our deployment would be Kvrge 685

17 linked up with Podsjelovo. That's what the lines would have looked like

18 on that day.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sir, I'm unable to completely digest this piece of

20 information, but, in any case, would you have any information about what

21 happened to these 40 well-armed Chetniks later on? Were they able to

22 break out or were they captured at a later point; do you know?

23 A. All I can say is that at the place the 2nd and 3rd Corps met,

24 there was a breakthrough by the enemy, some of their forces who had been

25 lagging behind. It was exactly at the point of intersection between the

Page 5444

1 two corps that a breakthrough occurred, and then the neighbouring Banovac

2 Brigade suffered some losses from this, but I can't say anything more

3 specific than that.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: What happened to the one Chetnik that you did

5 capture and who you did interrogate and who did inform you about these 40

6 well-armed Chetniks? Was he handed over to the Mujahedin as well?

7 A. I can't answer that question. I don't know.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well.

9 I have another question which is of a more general nature, and

10 that is -- that arises out of your testimony that you did not at any point

11 meet personally with the El Mujahid Detachment leadership. Did I,

12 understand this correctly?

13 A. No, Your Honour. I said that I met them three or four times.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. I'm glad that you clarified this,

15 because I was under the impression that you did not meet them. So you did

16 meet them. And what were you told about the level of cooperation between

17 the El Mujahid unit and your own troops?

18 A. Your Honour, as I explained, at the first meeting, when I was

19 called by the division commander, he said that this unit would be in my

20 area of responsibility. That was the first meeting, where we were

21 introduced to each other, and he told me about the command system of that

22 unit. And he also said that through any orders by the division commander,

23 it would have been my responsibility to make sure that they could stay in

24 the area.

25 Later on, it boiled down to logistic support, pursuant to orders

Page 5445

1 by the 35th Division.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. It's an

3 interpretation problem. I had not been following the interpretation, but

4 I think there's a misinterpretation. Page 61, lines 11 and 20, the

5 witness, and I heard this very clearly, said that he was familiarised with

6 the command staff of the division, and the transcript reads "the command

7 system of that unit," and he means the command staff of the El Mujahid

8 unit, and this reads "system." So these are two entirely different

9 matters, and I'm afraid that might mislead the Chamber. I think this is

10 what the witness said.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: The best way to ascertain this is to ask the

12 witness to confirm if, indeed, this is what you wanted to testify.

13 A. I wanted to say that he introduced me to the Command Staff, the

14 Commander of the El Mujahid Detachment, Abu Maali. Muatez was in charge

15 of combat activities, that's what I understood later, and there was an

16 interpreter, too, named "Ajman."

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. Mr. Zilkic, I hope I'm not repeating

18 questions that have already been put by the parties, but I do not have a

19 clear idea of what your perception was of the distribution of command over

20 the El Mujahid Detachment soldiers and your soldiers. In other words,

21 were you supposed to exercise control over the El Mujahid Detachment

22 forces?

23 A. No, Your Honour, that is entirely different unit, two entirely

24 independent units. In both cases, the order was issued by the 35th

25 Division, meaning I never received any orders from the El Mujahid

Page 5446

1 Detachment, nor did I ever issue any orders to them, not in any way.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: So you were two units working together in parallel

3 under the instructions of the 35th Division Command?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just two questions, sir.

7 In answer to a question by Madam Vidovic, you said that you were

8 coerced to make certain statements when you were making statements to the

9 investigator of the OTP. You remember that?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question is: Who coerced you?

12 A. Not like that. It was the same as Mrs. Vidovic, who was trying to

13 put me in a context where I would come across as an extremist, but she

14 used documents for that purpose. It was in much the same way that the

15 investigators did this. It was 10 or 12 years after the event. I had

16 done my best to forget all about it, and then I was taken there to make a

17 statement about something that I no longer remembered fully. They wanted

18 certain answers to certain questions. If they didn't obtain their answers

19 immediately, they would do the roundabout thing and then try to leave me

20 in a spot where I could do little else but answer "yes" or "no" to certain

21 questions.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, but they were not forcing you, anyway. Okay,

23 thank you very much.

24 The other question was: Again, in response to a question by Madam

25 Vidovic, I think you said that your subordinate, from whom you say the El

Page 5447

1 Mujahedin Detachment seized the POWs, informed you -- he phoned you, I

2 think, twice, and the second time you said to him he must go back and try

3 and get those POWs back or to go and find out what's happened to them; am

4 I right?

5 Now, my question is: Did he come back with an answer, and if so,

6 what was the answer?

7 A. No, he told me right away that nothing can come of that, that they

8 were taken away.

9 Your Honour, I would like to repeat how the conversation

10 proceeded. When he told me that there were prisoners, he asked for a

11 vehicle to transport those prisoners, according to orders, to the place

12 where prisoners were handed over. Immediately, I directed him to go to

13 that spot where the people were arrested or captured, to the Kesten

14 sector.

15 After that, at about 1400 hours, he told me -- he called me to say

16 that the El Mujahid had taken away the prisoners, had seized and taken the

17 prisoners away. I asked him, "Can anything else be done without getting

18 into a conflict with the Mujahirs," and he said, "No, it's too late,

19 they've taken them away."

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: So the short answer is: He didn't go back to go

21 and check?

22 A. I don't know where he called me from the second time, but it was

23 from that same sector.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but he did not pursue the POWs to try and get

25 them back; is that what you are saying? It ended there, the matter ended

Page 5448

1 on the telephone discussion?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 A. He told me then that he couldn't do anything more.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 Any questions arising?

7 MR. MUNDIS: No, Your Honour. We'd just like to thank the witness

8 for appearing.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

12 Okay. Thank you, sir. Then this brings us to the conclusion of

13 your testimony, sir, and thank you very much for taking the time off to

14 come and testify.

15 You are now excused. You may stand down. Travel well back home.

16 Sorry you had to stay the weekend.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 The Prosecution calls Ferid Buljubasic, and he will be led by my

22 colleague, Mr. Menon.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

24 Yes, Mr. Menon.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 5449

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, sir, and

7 good afternoon to you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 Mr. Menon.

11 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Examination by Mr. Menon:

13 Q. Sir, could you please state your full name for the record?

14 A. My name is Ferid Buljubasic.

15 Q. And could you please state your date of birth for the record?

16 A. I was born on the 5th of November, 1953.

17 Q. And could you please state your place of birth for the record

18 again, sir?

19 A. In Foca, Bosnia and Herzegovina.

20 Q. Thank you for that, sir. Sir, have you ever provided a written

21 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And do you recall when you were -- the date on which you were

24 interviewed for the purposes of giving that statement?

25 A. The first interview was on the 30th of July, if I remember

Page 5450

1 correctly, and then on the 14th of August I signed the statement in

2 English.

3 Q. Thank you for that, sir. And at the time of that interview, sir,

4 did you answer the questions that were put to you truthfully?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did you answer those questions freely, and that is, without

7 any coercion?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you've indicated that you signed the Bosnian -- excuse me, the

10 English version of your statement on the 14th of August; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And did you do that after the statement was read out to you in the

13 Bosnian language?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. MENON: I would now ask that the witness be shown Exhibit

16 P06208. If we could just scroll down a little bit on the English. If we

17 could scroll down on it. Thank you.

18 Q. Sir, do you see your signature on the English version of the

19 statement in front of you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, in preparation for your testimony, you met with myself and an

22 analyst from the Office of the Prosecutor, did you not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And at that -- excuse me. At that point in time, you were given

25 an opportunity to review the Bosnian language version of your written

Page 5451

1 statement; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And after reviewing the Bosnian version of your statement, sir,

4 were you given an opportunity to make corrections to your statement?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. MENON: I would now ask that the witness be shown Exhibit

7 P06210.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you want us to do with P06208, sir?

9 MR. MENON: Again, the witness has made some corrections to this

10 particular statement, so once he adopts the list of corrections, I would

11 ask that this statement and the list of corrections be admitted into

12 evidence.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you. P06210.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, I object

15 to this way of admitting statements. I believe that the Rule 92 ter is

16 such that the witness would need to see and sign the statement, and I

17 believe that he would need to see it and sign it in its Bosnian version.

18 I really object for corrections to be admitted of a statement. This

19 creates a lot of confusion. Instead of having a consolidated statement

20 admitted, the corrections could have simply been entered and a corrected

21 version could have been submitted, because last time we were in a

22 situation where it was very difficult to see our way around such a

23 statement.

24 I object to this way, because then this uncorrected statement

25 remains in the exhibits. You before have just now heard the witness

Page 5452

1 speaking about bad translations and who objected to some things from the

2 statement during the investigation phase. I think the statement would

3 need to be given a provisional number, and then later it should be

4 substituted by the consolidated statement.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Menon.

6 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would note that -- well, let me first

7 add that the reason that this approach is being chosen is because there

8 simply wasn't enough time to produce a consolidated written statement.

9 I met with this witness on Sunday. I -- we produced the list of

10 changes in Bosnian that day. That was immediately sent to the Defence on

11 Sunday, itself. I simply did not have the language resources at my

12 disposal to produce a consolidated statement by this afternoon. Had I had

13 those resources at my disposal, I would have produced it, but there just

14 wasn't enough time.

15 I assumed that this particular practice would be okay, given that

16 there weren't a substantial number of changes being made to the statement

17 and given the fact that last week this particular practice was accepted

18 with respect to another witness.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do I understand that you agree, in fact, that the

20 correct procedure is to have a consolidated statement, and therefore you

21 will file a consolidated statement in due course?

22 MR. MENON: If -- well, let me say that's the ideal position, but

23 I certainly think that the practice of submitting a list of changes, to

24 the extent that that's presented in an ordered and concise manner, as it

25 has been in this particular case, that should be sufficient. So I don't

Page 5453

1 want the Court to understand my submission as being that that's the only

2 way to present --

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fair enough. The Court then does order you to file

4 a consolidated, corrected statement, okay, and offload this one that has

5 got a correction.

6 MR. MENON: Okay. One -- just one submission that I'd like to

7 make, Your Honour, that the -- it's -- the consolidated version of the

8 statement is not going to be signed, unfortunately, because the witness

9 will be leaving after his testimony and there won't be enough time to put

10 his -- to get him to sign the statement before he leaves.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, there's a problem that's being

12 raised.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that there

14 won't be a problem, and I believe that the Prosecution will take into

15 account the corrections given by the Prosecutor. We would accept for this

16 to be done by the corrections on conditions that there aren't too many of

17 them. But, Your Honours, please take a look. A large part of the

18 statement has been corrected, and I did have a lot of difficulties in

19 preparing for the cross-examination. We need to follow what is being

20 said.

21 I do not want that statements that were not signed by the witness,

22 that he did not see in Bosnian and sign in Bosnian, should be admitted. I

23 mean, we will accept a consolidated statement, although the witness did

24 not sign with the paper where his signature is, but we will not accept

25 this statement as it is.

Page 5454

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.

2 You will file a consolidated statement, signed or not signed,

3 Mr. Menon, and in future let's try to have -- if there are corrections to

4 be made, let's make a consolidated statement and offload the one that is

5 incorrect and upload the one that is correct.

6 And while I'm speaking, may I just ask, Mr. Menon, is there any

7 specific reason that we were given the statement in triplicate, and it's

8 so thick as a result, because every page is three times. --

9 MR. MENON: If I could have a moment to consult with my case

10 manager, Your Honour.

11 Am I to take it that Your Honour received three copies of the same

12 statement?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no. I have --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have three page 2s, three page 3s, three page

16 what, three page what?

17 MR. MENON: Well, I apologise for that. There must have been a

18 clerical error, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: And we don't have the corrections that Madam

20 Vidovic seems to be having.

21 MR. MENON: I did actually forward that to the Defence and the

22 Trial Chamber on Sunday.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Maybe it's our internal problems.

24 MR. MENON: And then the signed version on Monday.


Page 5455

1 You may proceed, Mr. Menon.

2 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour. What I'll do is I'll just

3 have the witness have a look at the corrections that he made and see if

4 he's able to adopt those changes. I understand that the statement itself

5 will be marked for identification.

6 Q. Sir, does the document in front of you contain the changes that

7 you wanted to make to your statement, sir?

8 A. I can see just one page. For now, this part, yes.

9 MR. MENON: If we could just go to the next page.

10 Perhaps if it would be quicker, I do have a Bosnian version.

11 Q. Sir, do you see this page?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Does this page list further changes that you wanted to make to

14 your statement, sir?

15 If we could go to the next page.

16 Do you see that, sir?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. MENON: If we could go to the next page.

19 Q. Do you see this page in front of you, sir?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. MENON: If we could go to the final page.

22 Q. Sir, I'll ask you again, does the -- the document in front of you,

23 does it contain the changes that you wanted to make to your statement?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And does your signature appear on the Bosnian version of the

Page 5456

1 document, sir?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. MENON: Thank you very much.

4 Your Honour, given the fact that we'll be submitting a

5 consolidated statement, I don't really see any purpose in admitting this

6 particular exhibit, other than just to note for the record that the

7 witness did adopt.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's just mark it for -- well, you can't mark it

9 for identification.

10 Given the problem that you raise, that the next statement will not

11 be signed, I think it may perhaps just be prudent to keep this one on

12 record so that we can compare the unsigned one with the signed one.

13 MR. MENON: Okay.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: So let's give this an exhibit number. Both of the

15 two statements, give them an exhibit number.

16 MR. MENON: And what Mr. Mundis just suggested to me is that this

17 particular document be admitted into evidence, while the statement be

18 marked for identification, and we'll substitute the consolidated statement

19 for the list of changes, once we obtain it, if that's acceptable to the

20 Court.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Keep both. Let them be admitted.

22 MR. MENON: Okay.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the statement will be Exhibit number

24 815, and the corrected version will be Exhibit number 816.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 5457

1 MR. MENON: Now, if we could bring up Exhibit 815, which is the

2 witness's statement. And if we could go to page 3 of the English and page

3 4 of the Bosnian version of the document. And if we could scroll down on

4 the Bosnian version of the document. I want to focus on paragraph 8.

5 Q. Sir, do you see paragraph 8 in front of you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And I want to focus your attention on the last sentence of

8 paragraph 8. Do you see that sentence?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. Now, when you made your corrections, did you change anything in

11 respect of this particular sentence, the last sentence of paragraph 8?

12 A. If this refers to the sentence: "If there was any written

13 correspondence between the Administration and Rasim Delic, it went by our

14 cabinet," I didn't change anything of that, but only in paragraph 8 I

15 called the Administration by its proper name and added all the other

16 administrations in Sarajevo.

17 Q. Okay. I'm only interested in that last sentence, and what I want

18 to ask you is whether there were ever any instances when correspondence

19 from the administrations would reach General Delic without going through

20 the Cabinet.

21 A. In the remainder of the statement, I said that the correspondence

22 between the administrations and General Delic went through me. However, a

23 part of this correspondence relating to the Administration for Personnel

24 and Legal Affairs and some of the correspondence that was exchanged with

25 the Security Administration went or bypassed me, or rather sometimes the

Page 5458

1 chiefs of the administrations directly contacted General Delic so that a

2 part of the correspondence did not go always via the Cabinet and through

3 me.

4 Q. And do you know why this occurred, sir?

5 A. That's also in the statement. It was probably due to the fact

6 that we were in a hurry. It was necessary to sign some things urgently,

7 and the Personnel and Legal Affairs Administration was in the same

8 building, on the same floor, and it was close to General Delic's Cabinet,

9 and probably because of this proximity and the frequent need for some acts

10 and documents to be signed as soon as possible, the chief of the

11 administration would take in the documents himself for review and for

12 General Delic's signature.

13 Q. And did this also apply to the Security Administration, sir?

14 A. From what I recall, very rarely.

15 MR. MENON: Thank you, sir.

16 If we could -- if we could now move on to page 4 of the English

17 and page 7 of the Bosnian version of the statement. And if we could

18 scroll up a little bit on the Bosnian version of the statement. And if we

19 could scroll a little bit down on the English version of the statement.

20 I'm interested in paragraph 19, and all we see on the English version of

21 the statement is a "9".

22 Q. Sir, do you see -- do you see that in that paragraph, you refer to

23 a reference number of a document that you were shown during your

24 interview? Do you see that in paragraph 19?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5459

1 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would now ask that the witness be shown

2 Exhibit P01983.

3 Q. Sir, do you see the document in front of you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And is this -- if we could scroll up a little bit on the Bosnian

6 version of the document. Is this the document that you were referring to

7 in paragraph 19 of your statement?

8 A. Possibly, in paragraph 19 and later in the amendments, I said that

9 this was a document that was returned and that it had an envelope on which

10 it said "To the commander personally" or to be opened by the commander.

11 Based on this document, I cannot see whether that is that particular

12 document. The documents were inside, so I don't see that this document

13 states that the document should be opened by the commander.

14 This is a copy of the document that has to be returned, but it

15 doesn't say who should open it, it doesn't say what is stated on the

16 envelope, and which I mentioned in paragraph 19.

17 Q. Sir, all I'm interested in is at paragraph 19 you refer to a type

18 of document that would arrive in an envelope, and now the document that

19 I'm showing you is called "a bulletin," and what I want to know is whether

20 the document that you were referring to in paragraph 19 was a bulletin,

21 not to the specific content of the document but just whether that document

22 that you were referring to in paragraph 19 was a bulletin.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The witness

25 has just said that the envelope was closed and he was not able to see, so

Page 5460

1 you cannot insist any further.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the document would come

3 in a closed envelope. On the document, it said: "To be opened by the

4 commander." Since I didn't open the document and I did not return it --

5 look at it once it was returned, it did not say that it was a bulletin on

6 the envelope. Perhaps it was a bulletin, but I really cannot say what was

7 in the envelope.

8 MR. MENON: Sir --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second. Let's correct something, sir.

10 The record says you said, "On the document, it said, 'To be opened

11 by the commander.'" Now, were these words written on the document or were

12 they written on the envelope? Is it the document that's to be opened by

13 the commander or is it the envelope that's to be opened by the commander?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander opens the envelope.

15 He opens the envelope and -- maybe we can go back to paragraph 19 in

16 Bosnian.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: But just answer my question. The way it's --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander opens the envelope.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Listen to my question, please. Were the words "To

20 be opened by the commander" written on the envelope or on something else?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the envelope.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


24 Q. Sir, I want you to listen to my question very carefully. I'm not

25 asking you what you saw when you were the Chief of Cabinet, I'm asking you

Page 5461

1 what you saw when you made this comment during the course of your

2 interview. And what I want to know is whether, when making this comment

3 during the course of your interview, you were looking at this particular

4 document, because in paragraph 19 you refer -- you state: "I am shown

5 document ERN-0403-7206" and I want to know, when you made that comment,

6 were you referring to this particular document?

7 A. If you read carefully paragraph 19, and I remember very well what

8 I said there, this document, I did not see then when I was the Chief of

9 Cabinet. I saw it in 2001, when I was performing the duty of deputy

10 defence minister. Thus, the first time I saw this document was when it

11 was shown to me when I was giving a statement. I saw it with you during

12 proofing, and I am seeing it now. So I cannot say what was in the

13 envelope, if on it it states to be opened by the commander.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just listen to the question, sir. You're an adult

15 person now.

16 The question simply is: "On the 14th of August, 2007, when you

17 made this statement, you said at paragraph 19, 'I am being shown --'"

18 On the 14th of August:

19 "I am being shown a document ERN-0403-7206. Is that -- is this

20 the document that you were shown on the 14th of August, 2007, that you see

21 in front of you, 0403-7206"? It's a very simple --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right.

24 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I simply wanted to note for the record

25 that this document has already been admitted as Exhibit 727, and I simply

Page 5462

1 wanted to illustrate what the witness was referring to when he made this

2 comment.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please, but we should

5 look at the witness's statement. He said: "I only saw such documents

6 after the war."

7 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I'm not seeking to have this document

8 admitted. I'm simply trying to identify it for the record so that when

9 the Chamber looks at this witness's statement and they see the

10 statement: "I am shown document ERN-0403-7206" Your Honours will know what

11 the witness was talking about. That's all I'm doing this for.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just don't understand what Madam Vidovic is

13 saying, but, anyway, yeah, we understand that he saw it after the war,

14 Madam Vidovic. In fact, we understand that he -- we're talking about

15 things that he saw at the time he made the statement.

16 You may proceed, Mr. Menon.

17 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 If we could go to page 6 of the English version of the witness's

19 statement, which is Exhibit 815. And it's page 9 of the Bosnian version.

20 If we could scroll down on the Bosnian version of the statement, please.

21 Q. Sir, it's the last sentence of paragraph 28, so we're going to

22 have to move to the next page in the Bosnian version, but we'll stay on

23 the same page in the English version.

24 And, Your Honours, it's the fourth sentence of paragraph-- it's

25 the -- let me count that. I believe it's the fifth sentence, actually.

Page 5463

1 It begins: "The advantage of this meeting point ..."

2 Can we go to the next page of the Bosnian version? Oh, we are.

3 Thank you.

4 Sir, have you had a chance to read that sentence?

5 A. If you mean:

6 "The advantage of this meeting point was the possibility of

7 physical communication between Zenica," and then this was amended, it

8 reads "Command Post Kakanj," is that what you have in mind?

9 Q. Yes, that's the one. I --

10 A. So this sentence was added to the statement in a supplement. It

11 wasn't the forward command post, it was the command post of Kakanj, and

12 something else was added. They most often met in Kakanj and Zenica for

13 these very reasons, because there was the possibility of physical

14 communication between Zenica and Kakanj.

15 Q. And what I want to know is what you mean by "the possibility of

16 physical communication between Zenica and Kakanj." Can you explain what

17 you mean by that?

18 A. Sarajevo, as I believe you know, was under siege. You know what

19 it took to leave Sarajevo, and you know how long it took to reach Kakanj

20 or Zenica from Sarajevo.

21 At the time when I was Chef de Cabinet, the BH Army controlled

22 both Kakanj and Zenica. It was easy to communicate physically or, rather,

23 to travel between Zenica and Kakanj. It was physically possible to reach

24 Zenica from Kakanj, and vice versa, especially if you compared that to the

25 communication between Sarajevo and either of these towns.

Page 5464

1 MR. MENON: Thank you for that, sir.

2 Now if we could go to -- if we could go to page 5 of the English

3 and page 7 of the Bosnian version of this statement. If we could scroll

4 up, and scroll a little bit down on the Bosnian version of the statement.

5 Q. And I'm interested in the fourth sentence of this paragraph, sir,

6 paragraph 20, which says that -- a part of it reads Delic was often in

7 Visoko as well. And what I want to know is how the communication -- how

8 is the communication between Visoko and Kakanj, how is the state of

9 communication between those two points?

10 A. Communication was possible between Visoko and Kakanj, and also it

11 was a lot simpler, safer, than communication between Sarajevo and Visoko

12 or between Sarajevo, Kakanj and Zenica.

13 Q. And can you explain why it was simpler -- a lot simpler and a lot

14 safer than communication between the other points that you referred to?

15 A. The road that one took at the time was also under the control of

16 the army, and the distance between Visoko and Kakanj, which you can see on

17 the map, is a lot shorter than that between Sarajevo and Kakanj.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Menon.

19 MR. MENON: Yes.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is this not supposed to be a witness testifying

21 pursuant to 92 ter?

22 MR. MENON: It is. I'm simply -- and that was the last point that

23 I was going to have him clarify in his statement, but I identified a

24 couple of points.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why wasn't this clarified in the correction

Page 5465

1 statements that you did on Sunday?

2 MR. MENON: The corrections that he made were -- on Sunday were

3 his own corrections. I didn't want to input my own corrections into that

4 or my own clarifications.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: But then he's not giving -- now we've got to look

6 at the statement and then look also at his testimony.

7 MR. MENON: I apologise for that approach, Your Honour. My

8 interpretation of Rule 92 ter was that -- was that we could ask clarifying

9 questions.

10 Another thing that I'd like to add is that on Sunday, I spent the

11 whole day just compiling the changes that this particular witness wanted

12 to add to his statement. I only actually started discussing the contents

13 of his statement with him on Monday afternoon, and so there simply wasn't

14 time to produce another --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, there's the point, sir, that I guess you talk

16 to your witness long in advance, not the day before, but, anyway, carry

17 on. You said you had the last question.

18 MR. MENON: That was my last clarifying question on this

19 statement, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 MR. MENON: I would now ask that the witness be shown Exhibit

22 P02797.

23 Q. Sir, what does this document concern? And if you need to see more

24 of the document, we can scroll down on it.

25 A. There is no need. If you look at the preamble, it's clear. It's

Page 5466

1 about taking measures and incentives about the third anniversary of the

2 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in terms of awarding commendations and

3 decorations to certain units.

4 MR. MENON: And if we could go to page --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we see who

7 produced this document? Do we see the witness's initials there? We need

8 some link between the present witness and this document.

9 MR. MENON: Your Honour, as I understand the evidentiary rules

10 that were issued by this Trial Chamber, it's not imperative that a

11 document be admitted through the author of that document, and I was

12 actually going to show the witness the person who signed the document and

13 ask him about that, and then ask him a further question before I sought to

14 tender the document. But I do think that the objection which was lodged

15 was quite premature.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you think you can then show him that signature

17 and let him talk about it?

18 MR. MENON: That was my plan, Your Honour.

19 If we could go to page 2 of the English and page 2 --

20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Menon, I think you are used

21 to showing the signatures later on. It might be good to show it

22 beforehand, because that could save up some time, couldn't it? And that

23 would also avoid objections being made.

24 MR. MENON: I will keep that in mind. Thank you.

25 Q. Sir, do you see the document -- do you see the signature on this

Page 5467

1 document?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. To whom does that signature belong, sir?

4 A. I've seen plenty of these, and this looks like General Delic's

5 signature. I'm no handwriting expert myself. Therefore, I can't say with

6 absolute certainty that the signature belongs to him. It certainly looks

7 very much like the signature that he used whenever he signed documents

8 that I submitted to him, but it would require the presence of a

9 handwriting expert to ascertain that, especially in view of the fact that

10 I did not author this document myself. It was the Administration for

11 Personnel and Legal Matters.

12 Q. And, sir, do you see the initials on the bottom left-hand side of

13 the --

14 A. Yes, yes, "AL SP/HC" with a check. This could be Alija Ismet and

15 Salko Polimac, persons working in the personnel-related and legal issues

16 at the time. "HC," I have no idea who that might be.

17 Q. And can you explain the process by which an order such as this

18 would have reached General Delic for his signature?

19 A. This was an established procedure for all units when incentives

20 were issued. Commanders and unit commanders, and we're talking about the

21 3rd Corps here, this is the Joint Command of the 3rd Corps, the Command of

22 the 3rd Corps would forward this to the Administration for

23 personnel-related and legal matters. They would prepare a document for

24 these measures to be passed, and then the last thing would be for General

25 Delic to sign this document.

Page 5468

1 MR. MENON: Thank you.

2 Your Honour, I would ask this document be admitted into evidence.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I oppose this. Not

5 through this witness, we don't have a sufficient foundation. The witness

6 said this was a different administration that was behind this document.

7 The signature is a little like it, but I don't even know -- this looks

8 like "AL" to me. I don't think there is a foundation in relation to this

9 witness, the same as the previous one, in fact.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam Vidovic. When you say, "The signature

11 is a little like it," what do you mean? Are you testifying now or ...

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, no, no, no, no, Your Honour,

13 I didn't say that. It must have been misinterpreted. I said the witness

14 said that, that the witness said that it was like it, but he was no

15 expert.

16 And the other thing that I said, I see "AL" and not "AI."

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's an error. I think this is

18 Alija Lanca [phoen]. It's "AL."

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Menon.

20 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would simply note that the witness

21 said, "It certainly looks very much like the signature," and he also

22 said,"I've seen plenty of these, and it looks very much like General

23 Delic's signature." To me, he's identified the signature. That's a

24 sufficient basis.

25 I'm not going to add anything more.

Page 5469

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wasn't following the

3 transcript, and I have to thank my colleague, Mr. Menon, for pointing this

4 out, but that's not what the witness said, that it looked very much like

5 it, and the way it was phrased, that wasn't what the witness said, that it

6 was very much like it. He said it was like it, "but I'm no expert." I

7 think this is something that can be clarified with the witness.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: We can see the record here:

9 "I've seen plenty of these, and this looks like General Delic's

10 signature. I'm no handwriting expert myself, therefore I can't say with

11 absolute certainty that the signature belongs to him. It certainly looks

12 very much looks like the signature that he used whenever he signed

13 documents that I submitted to him, but it would require the presence of a

14 handwriting expert to ascertain that, especially in view of the fact that

15 I did not author this document myself. It was the Administration for

16 Personnel and Legal Matters."

17 That's what's on the record. Do you confirm, sir, that's what you

18 said?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber is of the view that there's not

22 sufficient foundation for the tendering of the document.

23 Mr. Menon.

24 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want it marked for identification?

Page 5470

1 MR. MENON: Yes, Your Honour, please.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it please be marked for identification and be

3 given an exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI 817.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

6 If I may just ask, what happened to P01983?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that was admitted previously through

8 Witness Vuckovic as Exhibit number 727.


10 THE REGISTRAR: Part of the bulletin collection.

11 MR. MENON: And I noted that on the record, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, I just didn't write.

13 Okay, fine, this is now 817. Thank you.

14 This document is admitted into evidence. It is now given an

15 Exhibit number 817. I beg your pardon, marked for identification. I'm so

16 sorry.

17 Yes, Mr. Menon.

18 MR. MENON: That concludes my direct examination, Your Honour. I

19 have no further questions.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 Madam Vidovic.

22 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

23 Q. Good evening, Mr. Buljubasic.

24 A. Good evening.

25 Q. I'm Vasvija Vidovic. I will examine you on behalf of General

Page 5471

1 Rasim Delic.

2 You will have an opportunity to answer most of my questions with a

3 simple "yes" or "no." This is the nature of cross-examination. We do

4 encounter frequent problems with this, however. Please make a pause after

5 each of my questions so that the interpreters can follow.

6 A. Thank you for these instructions.

7 Q. In January 1995 -- from January 1995 to the end of the war, you

8 were Chef de Cabinet of the General Staff commander; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You said that you were preceded by Mr. Murat Softic in this

11 position; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In paragraph 3 of your statement you describe the personnel

14 composition of the commander's cabinet. You said that there were two

15 secretaries working there and a typist. One of those was Jasna Lemes;

16 right?

17 A. Yes, but I amended paragraph 3. There was a person who made

18 coffee for us, and I provided the names of the persons who were

19 secretaries, Haris Huselimovic and Jasna Lemes.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Zeljko Grubesic was there too; right? He

21 was in charge of liaising with the media?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. And you mentioned the bodyguards, too, Mr. Dedic and Mr. Akova.

24 They were there throughout; right?

25 You mentioned the bodyguards, right, Mr. Dedic and Mr. Akova;

Page 5472

1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. D-E-D-I-C and A-K-O-V-A, Dedic and Akova. They were always with

4 General Delic whenever he travelled; right?

5 A. Yes, as far as I know, but at one point I left -- or, rather, when

6 they left Sarajevo, I don't know if they both went with him, but every

7 time General Delic left Sarajevo, both of them were with him.

8 Q. Thank you very much. You said something about the Kakanj command

9 post a while ago, or you said it in your statement, that it reads this

10 was, in a way, a new meeting point, a new place for meetings. Was this,

11 in actual fact, the Kakanj command post? It was a command post of the BH

12 Army Staff, was it not?

13 A. Yes, but I don't remember saying anywhere in my statement that

14 this was a new meeting point, a meeting place. I did say that meetings

15 were held there and in corps commands because of Sarajevo's physical

16 isolation. It's not that this was some sort of a special place where

17 meetings were held.

18 Q. Thank you very much for that explanation.

19 You did not go to Kakanj yourself. In your statement, you say

20 that you went there no more than twice; right?

21 A. Yes, right.

22 Q. The reason being General Delic didn't spend that much time in

23 Kakanj, he didn't spend that much time working there; he would mostly just

24 pass through, stay very briefly, and the Chef de Cabinet's presence was

25 not required, was it?

Page 5473

1 A. What I said was that General Delic sometimes left Sarajevo for

2 Kakanj when he was on his way to tour the units, when he was on his way to

3 tour the main Logistics Centre in Visoko, or when he was on his way out of

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina. I really don't know how long or when he stayed in

5 any of these places. I knew about when he travelled abroad. I would know

6 the duration of most of those trips, in rough terms. Therefore, I can't

7 say whether it was long, short. I have no documents to indicate this. I

8 wasn't always aware of whether he was in Kakanj, in Visoko, touring the

9 units, somewhere else.

10 Q. Fair enough. At any rate, in Kakanj he used an office, but he

11 didn't really have his own office, such as prescribed by the rules

12 governing the work of the Supreme Command Staff; right?

13 A. There is an addendum to the statement, and that is precisely what

14 is stated there. General Delic, during his time in Kakanj, would use a

15 room belonging to the Staff. He would have one of the people from the

16 Army Staff in Kakanj catering to his needs. Occasionally, Jasna Lemes,

17 the secretary, would travel along with him, and it's all in the addendum

18 to my statement.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Would you agree that General Delic's work,

20 for the most part, was done in Sarajevo?

21 A. I can confirm that for as long as I was Chef de Cabinet, he spent

22 the best of his time in Sarajevo.

23 Q. Thank you very much. All these questions that I'm asking you,

24 just for you to know, is mostly to do with your time as Chef de Cabinet.

25 I'm talking about 1995.

Page 5474

1 We have a minute or two left, and I will ask you one or two

2 questions about his purview, the scope of his work in Sarajevo, and this

3 is something that concerned you.

4 His tasks and your tasks were also to liaise with the Supreme

5 Command, of which he himself was a member; right?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. This required the presence of General Delic at meetings of the

8 Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. His activities were directly linked to the work of the Government

11 and the Defence Ministry as a governed body; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Contacts with the Defence Ministry, which was based in Sarajevo,

14 were frequent and important as well, were they not?

15 A. Indeed, they were.

16 Q. He worked in Sarajevo, and he also maintained relations with

17 UNPROFOR; right?

18 A. Yes, UNPROFOR and all the other international players who were in

19 Sarajevo at the time.

20 Q. Indeed. A lot of other international organisations who were in

21 Sarajevo at the time?

22 A. Yes, that's quite right.

23 Q. And there were many of those at the time, weren't there?

24 A. Indeed.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe this is a

Page 5475

1 good time to stop my cross-examination for the day.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

3 We unfortunately are not -- sorry.

4 MR. MENON: I just wanted to add one thing so that the record is

5 clear.

6 Once we get the consolidated statement, what we'll do is we'll add

7 it to Exhibit 816, which is the changes which Mr. Buljubasic has signed.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fine, just liaise with the Court Registrar and you

9 can advise us what has happened.

10 Unfortunately, we haven't finished with you, sir. You'll have to

11 come back tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon. Okay?

12 Court adjourned to quarter past 2.00 tomorrow afternoon in the

13 same court.

14 Court adjourned.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day of

17 September, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.