1 Wednesday, 14 November 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in court.
6 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good afternoon, Your Honours. This
8 is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 May we please have the appearances, starting with the Prosecution.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Good afternoon, Your Honours, counsel and everyone in and around
13 the courtroom. Daryl Mundis and Aditya Menon for the Prosecution,
14 assisted by our case managers, Alma Imamovic and Fraser McIlwraith.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 And for the Defence.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
18 afternoon to my colleagues from the OTP, to everybody in and around the
19 courtroom. I'm Vasvija Vidovic, with Nicholas Robson, with our legal
20 assistant Lejla Gluhic.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
22 Yes, I see the witness is not in court.
23 Mr. Mundis.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 The Prosecution has a number of hopefully brief submissions
1 concerning upcoming witnesses, and we would ask to address the Trial
2 Chamber in private session concerning these witnesses.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 5478-5485 redacted. Private session
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 You may call the witness.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, Mr. Buljubasic.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yesterday, before you started your testimony, you
13 made a declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else
14 but the truth. I just remind you that you are still bound by that
15 declaration. Okay?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 Madam Vidovic.
19 WITNESS: FERID BULJUBASIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic [Continued]
22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Buljubasic. Yesterday --
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. Yesterday, we talked about the duties of your Cabinet, and I would
25 like to continue with that topic.
1 You would agree with me, would you not, that in 1995, the
2 international community made substantial efforts to stop the war in Bosnia
3 and Herzegovina?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. General Delic was a negotiator on behalf of the Army of Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina; is that correct?
7 A. For the most part, yes.
8 Q. Very frequently, these were long-term negotiations within Bosnia
9 and Herzegovina and outside; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. During 1995, after the signing of the Washington Agreement between
12 Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were frequent negotiations about
13 many questions with the Croats in Croatia?
14 A. Yes, but in 1995 negotiations and agreements were still being
15 conducted with the HVO of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I personally attended
16 talks attended also by the commander in Kresevo and Jablanica.
17 Q. You would agree with me that those negotiations occupied a large
18 measure of General Delic's time and attention; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And peace depended on the outcome of those negotiations, lasting
21 peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina; isn't that right?
22 A. Probably, because those negotiations led to the Dayton and later
23 the Paris Agreement and the cessation of war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
24 Q. There were also various international conferences in 1995, peace
25 conferences as well as donor conferences; is this correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What is correct is that General Delic was more involved in all of
3 these matters rather than combat actions; would you accept that?
4 A. It's correct that the general dealt with all these matters, but I
5 cannot say -- and I say again I don't have an overview or any record of
6 where he went and how much time he spent in these places in order to give
7 you a proper answer. But everything you have said so far is correct, that
8 General Delic was quite engaged and that this required a lot of time for
9 the talks, the travels.
10 Q. Thank you. You said that it was a task of Mr. Delic's Cabinet
11 also to correspond with units to appoint, and you said this does not
12 include communications about combat actions. Here I refer to paragraph
13 7.3 of your statement, and I would like to ask you this in relation to
14 that: The communications between the general's cabinet and you, as the
15 Chef de Cabinet, were limited as regards this type of matter, about what
16 the Staff and the administration's relocation to Kakanj in connection with
17 combat activities?
18 A. Yes, that is correct, because an operations centre was formed in
19 Kakanj which directly communicated with units and received combat reports
20 from the units.
21 Q. Thank you. I'm going to put some questions to you now about
22 documents shown to you by the Prosecutor.
23 Could the witness now look at document PT2477, please. And you
24 commented already on this document. The witness did that in paragraph 38
25 of the statement.
1 For the transcript, before we see the document, we're talking
2 about a BBC report from the 4th of September, 1995.
3 Witness, can you please look at the Bosnian version of the
4 document. You will probably recall this document. It refers to the fact
5 that General Delic was a member of the delegation that visited the Islamic
6 Republic of Iran, and according to this document the visit took place from
7 the 28th until the 31st of August. You said that you remember that the
8 general was away at that time; isn't that correct?
9 A. Yes. I know that the general went on this visit. I saw this
10 document in English. I did not see it in Bosnian before. That's the
11 first time that I'm seeing it now in Bosnian. It's true that the general
12 went to visit Iran, and now from the document I see that this was from the
13 28th to the 31st of August. Of course, I couldn't recall and I do not
14 remember the date. I mean, it was a long time ago. But I do know that he
15 was with the delegation that travelled, and I know that this document, in
16 English, was shown to me before.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, thank you very much.
18 Your Honours, we can put this document away now. Actually,
19 perhaps the document can be given an exhibit number, because ...
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
21 please be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 818.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I just ascertain whether it's PT2447 or P2477,
25 because I think you said one thing on the transcript -- on the microphone
1 and I see another document appearing on your exhibit list.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 2477.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, is that on your list that you have
5 exhibited -- that you have distributed?
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a document that
7 was shown to the witness by the Prosecutor, and the witness comments on it
8 in paragraph 38 of his statement.
9 MR. MENON: Your Honour, if I could clarify --
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Your Honours, excuse
12 The mistake is here with us. We made a mistake on the list. The
13 list says "2447". We have the mistake on our list, but it's actually
14 2477. That's the correct number. I apologise. I didn't notice that.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: The mystery is solved.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.
19 The document has been given an exhibit number, 818.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] About this document, can the witness
21 please be shown D669.
22 For the record, this is an order of the General Staff of the BH
23 Army, and the date is the 28th of August, 1995.
24 Q. Witness, in your statement you made a number of references to the
25 commander being represented by General Hajrulahovic. I want you to look
1 at the date, the 28th, the document produced by the General Staff of the
2 Army, dated the 28th of August, 1995, the same date that we saw in that
3 article or paragraph.
4 Were you speaking about Brigadier General Mustafa Hajrulahovic who
5 was representing the general in Sarajevo, standing in for him during his
7 A. Yes. In my statement, I said that there was an organisational
8 order by the army from October 1994, and pursuant to this order the Chief
9 of Staff, the army's Chief of Staff, would also stand in for the commander
10 in terms of his role and function. However, whenever the commander left
11 Sarajevo, there were still commitments remaining in Sarajevo, and one of
12 the administration heads would normally stand in for the commander. Most
13 frequently, this was General Hajrulahovic.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
15 Your Honours, can this document be given an exhibit number,
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
18 please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 819.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. In your statement, you mentioned the fact that General Delic, in
23 September 1995, was away in Malaysia?
24 A. Quite correct.
25 Q. In paragraph 36 of your statement, you state that you believe that
1 Delic had appointed someone to stand in for him during his absence. Based
2 on that, the command-and-control system was fully operational. This was
3 your comment on the video clip that you were shown by the OTP. You recall
4 that, Witness, don't you?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Very well. Unfortunately, I don't have sufficient time to show
7 you the clip again, but I do want you to look at Exhibit 621 instead.
8 This is part of a set. The date is September 1995.
9 Right now, I want you to look at page 1 of this document.
10 First of all, this was produced by the Army's General Staff;
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the date is the 5th of September, 1995, is it not?
14 A. Yes, indeed it is. It was produced in Kakanj.
15 Q. I just want you to look at this [indicates], the signature
16 representing the commander and Enver Hadzihasanovic. Do you recognise the
18 A. No, no. I mean, I see where it says: "Representing the
19 commander," but I can't see what else it says, and I don't recognize the
21 Q. Be that as it may, on the 9th -- on the 5th of September, it is
22 quite obvious that --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, interpretation will proceed
24 when the speakers stop overlapping. Thank you.
25 A. You're actually asking me General Hadzihasanovic was representing
1 General Delic on that day. Yes, that is quite obvious, if you look at the
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Thank you very much, Witness, thank you. And now could you please
5 go to the last page of this document. The same applies to both the
6 English and the B/C/S.
7 You agree that this document was also produced by the Army's
8 General Staff, that it was produced in Kakanj on the 16th of September,
9 wasn't it?
10 If we could please pull up the Bosnian so that we can see the
12 This document shows, does it not, that on the 16th of September,
13 General Hadzihasanovic was representing the commander?
14 A. Yes, indeed, but could we just pull the document up a little so
15 that I can see the actual signature?
16 Q. Unfortunately, that's what the copy's like, that's what we were
17 given. All right.
18 A. Yes, it reads: "Representing the commander" or standing in for
19 the commander, Brigadier General Enver Hadzihasanovic.
20 Q. Thank you very much. You will agree, won't you, that these
21 documents show that General Rasim Delic was being represented by the Chief
22 of Staff for a time period in September 1995; right?
23 A. Yes. I did say that in my statement, didn't I? And if you look
24 at the organisational order by the army, you can see that as well. In
25 terms of his function and role and responsibility, the Chief of Staff of
1 the Army must stand in for the commander.
2 Is it always necessary to draw up a special order whenever the
3 commander is away on who exactly stands in for him? Well, this wasn't
4 something that was regulated. Sometimes an order was drafted on who would
5 be standing in, and sometimes it was made explicit in terms of each
6 person's responsibilities. So sometimes when the commander was away, it
7 was quite obvious that he would be represented by the Chief of Staff.
8 Q. Thank you very much for this explanation, Witness.
9 And now I want to ask you several other questions.
10 Your Honours, this document can now be put away. It has an
11 exhibit number already.
12 And what I wish to ask you now is a number of questions about the
13 situation throughout 1995, about the priorities faced by General Delic
14 throughout that year.
15 Do you agree that in Sarajevo itself, and you were working there,
16 too, throughout 1995, weren't you, the situation was very difficult?
17 A. I definitely agree.
18 Q. The siege continued throughout 1995 and until it became unbearable
19 for all those residing in Sarajevo; is that not a fact?
20 A. Yes, that's true. That's when the Markale incident happened as
21 well, the Markale incident.
22 Q. You say that's when the Markale incident occurred as well. This
23 was an incident where a single shell killed about 100 people; am I right?
25 A. Yes, plus over 100 injured.
1 Q. Civilians were being killed on a massive scale on the streets of
2 Sarajevo, targeted by the Serb artillery, who were besieging the city;
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. They were trying to wear down the town's defences, and that's why
6 the general launched an operation to try to lift the siege of Sarajevo; is
7 that right?
8 A. Yes, that's right.
9 Q. General Delic was busy planning this operation of which he was in
10 command; right?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. At the same time, and we're looking at July 1995, are we not --
14 A. Yes, late June and early July, the first half of July 1995, right.
15 Q. My apologies. At the same time, the pressure on the enclaves of
16 Sarajevo, Zepa and Gorazde was truly horrifying, was it not?
17 A. Indeed.
18 Q. All those living in the non-Serb enclaves were facing massacres,
19 the possibility of being massacred; right?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. Eventually, in July 1995 the Srebrenica tragedy occurred, and it
22 was soon followed by the Zepa tragedy; is that not right?
23 A. It certainly is right.
24 Q. Do you agree that this tragedy took up much of the General Staff's
25 attention and focus, including General Delic personally, and all they were
1 thinking about was how to avoid future tragedies of that kind?
2 A. Yes, that is quite true. There was a lot of domestic pressure
3 across Bosnia because of the tragedy, because of what had occurred in
4 Srebrenica, from the 11th of July onwards.
5 Q. Do you agree with me that throughout July 1995, those were the
6 priorities that General Delic had to come to grips with?
7 A. Yes, especially after Srebrenica, in the second half July,
8 including the best part of August. There was the accommodation problem
9 and everything that the Srebrenica tragedy caused. All those civilians
10 had to be put up somewhere, all those civilians who had left Srebrenica en
12 Q. But you do agree that the fighting continued throughout July and
13 August, leaving thousands of people trying to leave the Srebrenica area;
14 they were being pushed and thousands of them were still being killed, in
15 fact, were they not?
16 A. Yes, from the 11th onwards Srebrenica, and just after Srebrenica,
17 some of Zepa's citizens as well.
18 Q. Mr. Buljubasic, now that we're talking about Srebrenica, about the
19 Srebrenica area, the tragedy also enveloped the following places:
20 Srebrenica, Cerska, Kamena [as interpreted] and Konjevic Polje; is that
21 true, sir?
22 A. I'm not quite sure. I think the Srebrenica tragedy affected
23 Srebrenica alone. As for Cerska, Kamen [as interpreted] and Konjevic
24 Polje, most of those had fallen previously into the hands of the Republika
25 Srpska Army. Srebrenica and the part that had remained back in 1993, after
1 the Srebrenica area had been demilitarised, Cerska, Konjevic Polje and all
2 that area had been taken before, at least as far as I can remember.
3 Q. Yes, but you're not quite certain, are you? You weren't there,
4 were you?
5 A. I wasn't there. I'm not positive, but as far as I can remember,
6 Srebrenica was reduced to the status of an enclave in 1993, was separated
7 from Zepa. In the meantime, all communication between the two had ceased
8 simply because Cerska, Kamenica and Konjevic Polje had fallen. The
9 continuity of the fighting occurred in Gorazde, and I lost part of the
10 territory around Visegrad.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, Your Honours,
12 page 22, line 5, we're talking about Kamenica. Line 4, actually. Page
13 22, line 4, "Kamenica." Right?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, Srebrenica, yes, but we're
16 talking about Cerska, and it says "Kamen" instead of "Kamenica," and I
17 really want that word on the record.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... Madam Vidovic.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine, fine, fine.
20 Thank you for all these answers, and now I'll move on to some
21 other questions about paragraph 15 and 16 of your statement, in which you
22 speak about the communications system.
23 Q. You say that most of the phone lines to Sarajevo had been cut?
24 A. That's true. That was at the very outset, because the main -- the
25 principal post office building in Sarajevo had burned down.
1 Q. You say that a satellite telephone line was being used; right?
2 A. Yes. That was at Vranica, is the same building where the Cabinet
3 was. There was a satellite line in my statement [as interpreted]. I
4 point out that this was a stationary satellite telephone such is normally
5 used on ships. The size was enormous. It had to be placed somewhere and
6 left there. It was a stationary telephone device. It wasn't a mobile
7 device. Once you put it somewhere, it had to stay right there. It also
8 had a special sort of parabolic antenna which had to be adjusted at a
9 certain angle to meet the satellite in order to establish a line of
11 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Buljubasic, I have so many questions,
12 please try to keep your answers to a clear-cut yes or no wherever you can.
13 Anyway, thank you very much for this exhaustive explanation.
14 There's something else I want to ask you about this telephone.
15 It's true, isn't it, that communication over this telephone could only be
16 intercepted by electronic devices; right?
17 A. Yes, that's true.
18 Q. Military Security Service warned the General Staff about the fact
19 that satellite telephone lines were being listened to and intercepted;
21 A. Yes, that's right. I knew about that.
22 Q. You will agree with me, then, won't you, that this sort of
23 communication could not be used for conveying confidential information?
24 It wasn't appropriate for that, was it?
25 A. This line was not used for command purposes. This line was used
1 to maintain communications with certain other areas of Bosnia and
2 Herzegovina who were able to use this sort of communication, who had
3 appropriate equipment for this purpose.
4 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 19 of your statement, you spoke about
5 packet communications; right?
6 A. Yes. Some people called it "packet communications." Some people
7 called it "paktor [phoen] communications," so those were the expressions I
9 Q. Fine. Do you agree that there had to be a certain infrastructure
10 in place for this type of communication to proceed?
11 A. Yes. The bear minimum required for this type of communication was
12 a coding and decoding device, a keyboard, a monitor, a computer actually,
13 and a KT device that could be used to transmit the signal once the
14 processing had been dealt with.
15 Q. All right. Maintaining this communication was some sort of a user
16 at the command centre and someone who had appropriate equipment for this
17 kind of communication; right?
18 A. Yes. There had to be at least one operator present at any time
19 for this type of communication to proceed.
20 Q. Thank you. You say that you sent dispatches to the commander via
21 Kakanj whenever he was away from Sarajevo. You don't actually know for
22 sure whether, at the Kakanj command post, they always had appropriate
23 information as to the commander's whereabouts? They didn't always know
24 whether any such information had reached the commander or not, did they?
25 A. That's quite right, but that wasn't the case very often.
1 Sometimes whoever deputised for the commander in Sarajevo was perhaps
2 unable to deal with something, and then he would say, "Okay, try to get in
3 touch with the commander". This was not the case very often. As for the
4 fate of those documents that were dispatched to Kakanj, I don't know what
5 became of them because I was not physically able to actually see them
6 through, was I?
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 Can the witness now please look at D667.
9 This is a document produced by the commander's cabinet. The date
10 is the 14th of February, 1994, and this is about forwarding a document.
11 Q. I know that you are not the person who produced this document,
12 rather it was your predecessor, but I do wish to discuss the principle
13 behind this with you.
14 How was mail forwarded from the Cabinet to Kakanj? Look at the
15 introduction, please, and tell me if you agree with this. The document
16 actually says that the Chef de Cabinet, Murat Softic, is forwarding this
17 order to the Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command so that he can
18 familiarise himself with it, and then once it is signed, it should be
19 passed along. Isn't that what it says? And what I mean to ask you really
20 is, this is exactly the way you continued to work whenever you were the
21 one sending dispatches; right? That is something that you shared with us
22 a while ago, was it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Just below this, below the signature, you see what the substance
25 is of a given document being forwarded. Now please look at the last page
1 of this document. This is a document being submitted to the commander for
2 signature. Can you please look at the last page now. And what I actually
3 mean to ask you is this: This document here is not actually signed by the
4 commander, it's signed by Hadzihasanovic on his behalf; yes?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. And now the facts, and that is what I have been
7 meaning to ask you about, and this is something we discussed a while ago,
8 the fact that a document is being forwarded to the commander so that he
9 can familiarise himself with it in Kakanj. This, in itself, doesn't mean
10 that the commander actually ever set eyes on the document, ever received
11 it, ever signed it. At any rate, this would be done on his behalf by
12 whoever was standing in for him at the time whenever he was away; right?
13 A. Yes, in terms of the person's function, but this was probably
14 something that just couldn't wait, so whoever was in charge, whoever was
15 on duty, would sign it off.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
17 Your Honours, may the document please be given a number.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
19 please be given an exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 820.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Could this one be put
23 away, please, and I would like the witness to look at E727, Exhibit 727.
24 Q. Witness, yesterday, when you started testifying, we talked about
25 this document -- rather, when I started cross-examining you. And you said
1 that you would obtain from the Military Security Service sealed envelopes;
2 is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You made a sketch of one such envelope, and you said, "This is a
5 rough sketch, no more than that." In actual fact, you don't really know
6 what sort of documents those envelopes contained, do you? Were these
7 bulletins, was this some sort of special information being passed along,
8 was this just an ordinary letter or something else; you don't really know
9 that, do you?
10 A. Yes, because I never opened those, I never opened any of those
11 envelopes. It always said "To be opened by the commander, himself." There
12 were all those parcels and envelopes being sent to the commander. It
13 always read "To be opened by the commander alone." Therefore, I never
14 opened those, did I? I never opened them, I didn't know what was inside.
15 Q. Thank you very much. And now do you agree that you would forward
16 such envelopes to the commander whenever he was there, perhaps his
17 secretary, actually? That would be a fair thing to say. That's who you
18 forwarded these envelopes to, because the general actually had two
19 secretaries, didn't he?
20 A. Yes, it was at the post office. That was where I delivered all
21 the other mail. If the command was there, I would do it then and there.
22 If he was away or he had other commitments and this had to wait, then I
23 would normally leave this with one of the secretaries and they would then
24 forward this to the commander himself.
25 Q. That would be Ms. Lemes; right? I think you mentioned her, didn't
2 A. Yes, and whenever she was away, there was young Haris Kristianovic
4 Q. All right. What if the general was away from Sarajevo? Do you
5 agree with me that the mail wasn't just waiting for him; the secretary
6 would most probably have forwarded these documents to whoever was
7 deputising for the commander? Would you accept that?
8 A. I really don't know. I don't know what became of the mail. I
9 don't know whether it was given to whoever was deputising or was being
10 forwarded to wherever the commander happened to be. I just handed it over
11 and I didn't really follow this through. It never really came back to
12 me. Such documents that were sent on their way were never returned to
13 me. Therefore, I really don't know.
14 Q. Thank you very much. Can you help me with this: If it was
15 returned and when it was returned, how exactly did it get back to you?
16 Through the secretary; right?
17 A. I only know that the envelopes always read "To be opened by the
18 commander alone." I would give it to the commander and then the commander
19 would see what it was, he would familiarise himself with whatever the
20 contents were of those envelopes. That was for him to do. He would send
21 it back, and he would indicate who the recipient was. As for that type of
22 mail, I know that it was always forwarded back to whoever the recipient
23 was that was indicated on the envelope itself.
24 As for any mail sent through the secretary, I really don't know
25 how it was returned or who it was returned to.
1 Q. Thank you very much. All right. Be that as it may, you hand over
2 a sealed envelope to one of the secretaries. The general is away, so you
3 have no idea where it goes next or whether it returns?
4 A. No, I don't know. I don't know how it got to be there in the
5 first place, I don't know who it was returned by. I simply don't know.
6 Q. All right. Let me ask you about paragraph 20 of your statement.
7 The OTP showed you document 2028. It's actually P2028.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you calling that --
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we put this one away, please?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you calling 2028 or are you just telling him
11 that he saw it?
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I am calling it up. There are
13 certain things indicated on that document, and I would like the witness to
14 have a look.
15 Q. You made certain comments in relation to this document in your
16 statement. I'm sure you remember. I want you to have another look.
17 I would like the witness to be able to see the beginning of page
18 1. Could we just pull it up slightly, please, so we can actually see the
19 top of the page.
20 Witness, you agree that there is no indication whatsoever that
21 this document was encrypted, is there, above the body of the document, the
22 text, the top of the page?
23 A. That's right. There's some sort of an illegible signature at the
24 top of this document, but I don't see the sort of thing that normally was
25 indicated on whichever documents were encrypted.
1 Q. Thank you. Now let's look at the entire page, please.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, you said the Prosecution showed the
3 witness this document. Is it already an exhibit or not? I don't see it
4 on the list of documents shown by the Prosecution.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness commented
6 this document in the statement. I don't know what the status is now, but
7 perhaps I would like to hear what the witness has to say about it first.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, we can see that there are no
10 other indications on this page. Now we can look at the last or the second
11 page of the document. In English, it's the third page, Your Honours. Can
12 we please look at that?
13 Q. Mr. Buljubasic, do you agree that the document is not signed and
14 it's not stamped?
15 A. It's clear from the document that it's not stamped and signed.
16 Q. And do you agree that it could be a draft version that was not
17 actually -- that had not actually seen the light of day?
18 A. I cannot see any indications that this document was actually sent
19 out by paktor communication, and I cannot tell if it was received, because
20 there is no indication if it was received by anyone, because if it was
21 received, perhaps then it would have some logic that it wasn't signed.
22 But since there is no receipt stamp either, then ...
23 Q. Thank you. In any case, you personally never saw this document
24 before; is that right?
25 A. Not before the time that I gave my statement, when it was shown to
1 me for the first time.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we can put this
3 document away now, and I would like the witness to look at another
4 document now.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're putting it away because there's no basis for
6 it to be tendered or ...
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I am not tendering it, Your Honour.
8 This is a document that the witness in the statement -- I am not tendering
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please look at
12 document P2188 [Realtime transcript read in error "P2098"] now, please. I
13 will repeat the number. It's 2188, 2188. It's the right document now.
14 Q. You commented this document in a paragraph of your statement.
15 This is a document of the 28th of June, 1995. I would like you to look at
16 page 1 of this document, please. This is an information about the
17 importance of continuing the liberation operation. It's an act by the 3rd
18 Corps. It's quite faint here, but you can see that it is the 3rd Corps
19 Command here.
20 Now, Mr. Buljubasic, would you agree -- can we please scroll down
21 so that we can see the bottom of the page in the B/C/S and in the English
22 version. Actually, in English, it should be on the following page.
23 What I would like to suggest to you and to ask you is that: It is
24 evident that the Deputy Commander for Morale, Husic, is forwarding this
25 document, report on the significance of continuing liberation activities,
1 is passing it further along; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, can you see that there is a line between that, meaning that
4 the act is copied below this line? You've seen that, haven't you?
5 A. The beginning of the act is again.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, all right. Can we look
7 at the last page of the document now.
8 Q. All right. Please, can you see that this is Army General Rasim
9 Delic who signed the document, and then it says that the transcript is
10 authenticated by the Assistant Commander for Morale of the 7th Brigade and
11 the name is there. I would, first of all, like to ask you this: Can you
12 please look at these initials here on the left? We can all see that the
13 document is not signed. Can you look at the initials now? Are these the
14 initials of anyone from your Cabinet?
15 A. No.
16 Q. All right. So the transcript is authenticated. Did you ever see,
17 anywhere on the document, that the document was sent to the encryption
18 section? Does it say that anywhere?
19 A. At the beginning of the document, there are some shaded parts, so
20 I don't know what's on the accompanying document.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we go back to the
22 cover page or the first page so that the witness can look at it again.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see, above the number, it's
24 either a bad copy or something, but you cannot see the code of the person
25 who dispatched it or the code of the person who received the act. And,
1 secondly, when you compare the first act and the second act, there is
2 something illogical there. If it was the Assistant Commander for Morale
3 of the 3rd Corps, then it's strange that the authentication is carried out
4 by the commander of a brigade.
5 In this other act, which is not signed by General Delic, it's
6 signed by the Assistant Commander of the Brigade for Morale, this is
7 something that is illogical.
8 Q. Well, that's the reason why I asked you that. Please, we've seen
9 the general's name, and do you agree that in acts we saw that it's not
10 signed, and even if this document was encrypted, we wouldn't see it until
11 we -- who signed it until we saw the original act?
12 A. Yes, the encryption section does not convey the signature. Yes,
13 you are right.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, between you and the witness, just so
15 that I'm not left behind, what do you mean by an act in this context?
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Document, Your Honour, which is not
17 an order, so it's a document. It's an order or a report.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you talk of an act below and above, a line
19 between, I see one document here, except that at the last page there was a
20 line drawn somewhere and then there were some writings below. I'm not
21 quite sure which is the one act and which is the other act. I'm sorry,
22 I'm asking this question long after the word "act" has been used, so that
23 perhaps may not be very clear. But we can go to the last page and I can
24 show you what I mean.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I understand what
1 the dilemma is, because it was the same for me in the beginning.
2 Please, can we scroll down this first page a little bit, and then
3 we'll go to the next page, so that we can see the bottom of this text.
4 Q. Okay. Witness, please, do you agree that here this author,
5 Assistant Commander for Morale, is allegedly sending a copied document of
6 the Army General Staff further on to the units that are mentioned here?
7 A. I didn't understand. Are you asking me?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Well, you can see from the act that the Assistant Commander for
10 Morale, Husic, is sending this document or this act to the units that are
11 enumerated here. You can see that on the first page.
12 Q. Now we see one line that separates that completely from the second
13 document, which was drafted on the 28th of June, 1995; do you agree?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. And now can we look --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: It was also drafted on the 28th of June, 1995. It
17 may be at a different time. This one is -- you're talking now about the
18 thing that is done at 9.45? Okay. And that line --
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: That line divides the two acts?
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And based on my understanding of the
24 two documents, the draftee of the first document decided himself to whom
25 he would send the transcripts of this document.
1 Q. Would you accept that?
2 A. That's what it says on the act itself. "Dispatched to" means that
3 it was dispatched to -- each act that has the following words: Dispatched
4 to, and then lists the recipients, means that that document should be
5 delivered to those units that are mentioned there.
6 Q. So my question is this: The author of this second document below
7 the line did not decide who the document will be sent to, this document by
8 the Assistant Commander for Morale; we you don't have anything like that
9 stated in this lower document?
10 A. Yes, but again I'm coming back to this illogical matter. It's not
11 logical, below the line, where it says: "The Republic of Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina, General Staff" and the number, it's not logical that the
13 authentication of an act by the General Staff is done by a person who's on
14 the other side, who's from the brigade. This is what is a discrepancy
15 here. It's not possible for a morale commander in one of the brigades to
16 be verifying the accuracy of an act that originated from the General
18 Q. All right. Just one more question in relation to this act.
19 Please, do you agree that you have never seen this act before, as
20 the Chef de Cabinet of General Delic?
21 A. No, no, because there is nothing here indicating an archive
22 number, place of origin, so it was not drafted in the Cabinet and it did
23 not pass through the Cabinet.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
25 Your Honours, can this document be put away now, please.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before that, how do we know that there are two
2 separate acts here and authored by two different people?
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
4 Q. Witness, can you please read the first sentence here that we can
5 see on the screen? "Please find attached," is that what you mean?
6 A. Yes.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment, please, so that we
8 can look at the first page in the English, so that Their Honours can
10 So can we show the first page of the English version of this
11 document on the screen.
12 Q. Go ahead, Witness.
13 A. "Please find enclosed the report of the Army of the Republic of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina General Staff regarding the importance of continuing
15 liberation operations."
16 Q. Yes, there. In other words, enclosed with this act that is signed
17 by this Husic, because this lower act or document is below the line -- is
18 that correct, that is that information, that is something that you can
19 tell by the title?
20 A. Yes, that is correct. The usual practice is if lower-ranking
21 units are being sent information from higher-ranking units or commands,
22 then there would be an accompanying or a cover letter that accompanies
23 that act. Since these are two acts that we're talking about, the one on
24 the first page signed by Captain First Class Husic should represent this
25 accompanying act relating to this information that was supposed to be sent
1 out. However, I, as a soldier, have some doubts about the accuracy of
2 this act that goes with this accompanying act and it being signed by an
3 Assistant for Morale from one of the brigades, whereas it says that the
4 act was drafted in the General Staff.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.
6 Your Honours, I think this would be a good time, if you don't have
7 any questions.
8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Well, I'll put the question later
9 on, because I'm very sorry, I still entertain some doubts. There are
10 still some very dark areas about these documents.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was probably going to do the same after the
13 We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.
14 Court adjourned.
15 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.
17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I still have a problem with this
18 document, the entire document.
19 If I understood properly, there is a document that was sent by
20 Husic, together with an attachment or annex. Did I understand properly,
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This document from Mr. Husic
23 is a cover document, because he's enclosing this other document that is
24 partially below the line and partially on the second page.
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] At the end of the entire
1 document, we have Husic's letter, together with the attachment, and there
2 is a certification of the authenticity of the entire document; is that
4 Can we see the last page, please. Can we scroll down to get to
5 the last page.
6 This is what I wanted to know: Who's signature is it? Is it
7 possible to know? Who signed this certification?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the end of the act, it says that
9 the authenticity is verified by the Assistant of the Commander for Morale,
10 Captain First Class Sulejman Kurtanovic [phoen], if I'm seeing this
11 correctly. This is what I see underneath the signature.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for
13 interrupting, but evidently this is a misinterpretation into English, and
14 I can see what the confusion is.
15 It says that the transcript is authenticated by, and the
16 interpreter is interpreting it that the transcript is authentic, and these
17 are two completely different things in our language. Perhaps we can
18 clarify that with the witness.
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, I understood that
20 this authentication meant that the copy was a certified copy of the
21 original. Is that so?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principle, the person that
23 authenticates the transcript asserts that it is true to the original, but
24 this is not something that I am disputing. What is being disputed is the
25 procedure and the way in which these acts are being forwarded.
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This is what I was trying to
2 understand, this confirmation of the authenticity applies to the entire
3 document, does it, so the letter by Husic together with the attachment or
4 annex? It does not apply only to the document signed by General Rasim
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I actually understand it to be the
7 opposite. The authenticity of the transcript refers only to this
8 document, because Husic above writes his own separate act. The procedure
9 is disputable here.
10 If a unit, such as the Corps Command here, received this act --
11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood that, because
12 you've said this already twice, and still I have some problems with it.
13 If this was an authentication regarding the entire document,
14 therefore authentication that would apply to the thing that was sent by
15 Husic, this process, this authentication process, would it be the proper
16 one or not?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This authentication is incorrect.
18 The authenticity of the document cannot be certified by the person who
19 authenticated the document and signed it. He's the assistant commander of
20 a brigade, and the document should have been authenticated by somebody
21 from the Corps to assure that it had arrived at the Corps Command and that
22 it should be passed on to the units. So it's not the person that is
24 It's strange that a document that originated in the Corps Command
25 or the General Staff would be authenticated by a lower-ranking person, and
1 I think that even this brigade perhaps was not even part of the 3rd
2 Corps. I'm not sure. I didn't actually see it mentioned in the list.
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So you were saying that what is
4 authenticated is the letter by Husic and not the document signed by Delic;
5 is that so?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, we have a misunderstanding.
7 On condition that the authorised person that is authenticating the
8 transcript certified this transcript, which in this case they did not,
9 then this transcript would relate only to the information that is being
10 passed forward with the cover letter by Husic, not the first part. That --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat what he said.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're asked to repeat yourself, sir, please.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the assumption that the person
14 who authentified [as interpreted] the transcript, is the authorised
15 person, this assertion that the authenticity of the transcript is
16 certified would refer only to the document beginning from below the line
17 on the first page and going on to the second page; so this document that
18 is being enclosed with Husic's cover letter.
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor or another person,
20 could they have asked for a copy of the entire document, referring to the
21 two acts or documents? Could it be some kind of authentication of this
22 type, to show that it is true to the original?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand you. Really, I
24 didn't understand.
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] The problem is when it was
1 authenticated. Is there any date showing when it was done?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Therefore, as far as I'm
4 concerned, it's not at all clear. I'm still in the dark as to this
5 authentication process.
6 Thank you.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Just briefly, Witness, in our language the authentication of a
10 document is not -- is not a certification of the correction of the
11 transcript, of the correctness of the transcript?
12 A. Generally, what I understand as an authentication of the
13 transcript is that the person who is doing that would affirm that the
14 contents of the transcript is authentic and true to the original document.
15 Q. In other words, you are saying that whether they are identical; as
16 to whether they are authentic, that is a different question?
17 A. In the Bosnian language, authentication of the transcript is
18 something that is common, and that is what is used, meaning the term
19 signifies that the contents of the original are the same as or true to the
20 copy or the transcript.
21 Q. So, in any case, the Assistant Commander for Morale of the 7th
22 Brigade was not authorised to authenticate the transcript of a document by
23 the General Staff or a document by the 3rd Corps; am I correct?
24 A. Yes, you are. Only in the event that he received a document from
25 the 3rd Corps and was sending it to his subordinate units, to his lower
1 unit, he could then authenticate it. If he was sending a source document
2 to his battalions, then as somebody who received the document, he could
3 then authenticate the transcript that was being sent to his subordinate
5 Q. In any case, you said that you never saw this document and it
6 never passed through the Cabinet?
7 A. Yes, that is correct. It was not drafted and it did not pass
8 through the Cabinet.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
10 Your Honours, may we put this document away now.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not being tendered?
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could please look at 28 --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it P2089? I'm looking at --
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 809, 2809.
18 Your Honours, it is the document we have on our screens.
19 Q. Witness, please have a look. You commented on this in paragraph
20 28 of your statement. This is about the dismantling of the El Mujahedin
21 Detachment. It's an order.
22 You've seen this document a number of times, haven't you? You
23 looked at it several times as you were being proofed for your evidence in
24 court. You will agree with me that the final decision on the dismantling
25 of the El Mujahedin Detachment is a result of the Dayton Accords; right?
1 A. Yes, that's what it says. That's what the preamble of the
2 document --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could Madam Vidovic please
4 be asked not to overlap with the witness, because we can't hear the
5 witness. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I got no interpretation.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, I believe that the interpreters did
9 not interpret the last answer by the witness because there was an overlap,
10 and so you are kindly requested to consider again to be careful not to
11 overlap. Thank you.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in this situation I
13 really don't know how I was overlapping with the witness. I was not. I
14 see what it says, but really the interpreters should try harder.
15 Let me see what the last question was.
16 Q. Witness, I believe we discussed this. I asked you about this,
17 that -- this order being a result of the Dayton Accords being signed, and
18 you said that this was true; is that a fact?
19 A. Yes, and I said what the preamble said of the order and what
20 whoever was drafting the order was invoking, what the basis was for this
22 Q. Thank you. General Delic found it very important to comply with
23 the agreement and as far as it concerned the El Mujahid Detachment, and to
24 comply with the terms of the Dayton Accords in general; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. The Supreme Command Staff found it very important to resolve, as
2 painlessly and as simply as possible, this problem involving the El
3 Mujahedin Detachment, and this was no simple problem, was it?
4 A. Yes, that's true.
5 Q. Commendations and awards were a way to make the process of
6 dismantling the unit as simple as possible and to bring it to as speedy a
7 conclusion as possible; right?
8 A. Yes. Well, of course, if you're dismantling the unit, they're
9 much happier leaving with some sort of a commendation rather than without
10 one, walking away empty-handed, in other words.
11 Q. All right. In other words, it would be simpler for them to accept
12 this decision; they would not stir up any trouble or anything like that?
13 A. Yes, that's true.
14 Q. Now I want to ask you specifically about the Golden Lily award or
15 decoration, which is another thing that you commented on in your
17 This award or decoration is normally awarded for important
18 contributions to the resistance in armed -- resistance to armed aggression
19 against Bosnia and Herzegovina?
20 A. Yes, it's a token of appreciation for personal courage and
21 personal contributions made to the armed struggle against the aggressor.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please put the
23 document that we have before us away, please, and I want the witness now
24 to look at D666.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is the third document in a row that we have
1 been seeing -- that we have seen that has not been tendered. What is the
2 purpose of using these documents if they are not getting into evidence?
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these are documents
4 that the witness commented on in his statement. I do not wish to find
5 myself facing a situation where these documents are being tendered later
6 on through a witness who will be unable to explain the importance of the
7 document, the substance of the document, or its authenticity, and I
8 believe I am perfectly within my rights.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why don't they get them tendered through this
10 witness who is commenting on the authenticity?
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I could go without,
12 but I think this is something that the OTP showed the witness in a limited
13 way. That's true. But this is not a document that I want to become one
14 of the exhibits. I just want the witness to comment on the document in
15 much the same way that the OTP had him comment on it.
16 I don't know. If you see it fit, perhaps I could move for this to
17 be exhibited.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: When we are at the judgement and a document is
19 being spoken about and we want to check what document that was and what
20 that document was saying, and it is not on the record, what are we going
21 to do? We just disregard that part of the evidence because the document
22 is not there? And it means we have been wasting time this whole afternoon
23 taking down this evidence, because the documents that are supposed to go
24 with this evidence are not on record.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think you should
1 raise this with the OTP, why, because these are 92 ter statements, and
2 then what they do is attach a large number of documents to this set. They
3 are tendered and exhibited. Some of these are highly detrimental, at
4 least potentially, to my client. I want this witness to shed light on
5 this document, but it's certainly not a document that I wish to tender.
6 And this is definitely not a waste of time.
7 I think I know what will happen at the end. They will try to
8 exhibit this from the Bar table or through a different witness, who will
9 confirm a small portion of the document, and I will end up not having a
10 comment on this document from a person who may be, in this case, in a
11 position to significantly contribute to our understanding of the document,
12 and I really do not believe that this is a waste of time, this entire
14 What if tomorrow, for example, the OTP, as I'm sure they'll do,
15 starts tendering documents through a different witness or from the Bar
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: If they do that and the witness through whom they
18 are trying to tender the document doesn't know anything about that
19 document, then you have the right to object, because they've left the
20 witness who could have done so and didn't use him to tender the document.
21 And I would imagine that you would be perfectly within your right to
23 Now, if the documents were attached to his statement and they were
24 not used by the Prosecution, and they are not also used by you, then we
25 don't -- they're not tendered into evidence. However, if they are used
1 and not tendered, then that creates a problem, at least for me. For me,
2 my understanding is any document that is attached to a statement, unless
3 specifically tendered, it's not tendered and it's not used in court. But
4 once it is used, I expect to see it at the time of judgement writing.
5 However, you may go ahead, Madam. I've heard your explanation.
6 Mr. Menon.
7 MR. MENON: Your Honour, the Prosecution would move for this
8 document to be tendered into evidence on the basis that -- on the basis of
9 actually the explanation that Madam Vidovic provided to Your Honours, that
10 she wanted this witness to shed light on the authenticity of this
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: But why didn't the Prosecution tender this document
13 when it was leading this witness?
14 MR. MENON: Your Honour, the Prosecution attempted to tender one
15 document that was discussed by this witness in his statement, but it met
16 with a pretty strenuous objection from the Defence. Obviously, this
17 witness -- the nature of this witness's explanations in relation to each
18 of the documents that are discussed in his statement would have been
19 similar. They're not documents that he would have probably seen. They're
20 not documents that he has acknowledged that he saw in his capacity as the
21 Chief of Cabinet. They're documents that he can discuss on a general
22 level in terms of how they would have arrived at General Delic's desk for
23 his signature and whether or not those documents -- or whether or not the
24 signature that appeared on the documents looked like General Delic's
25 signature. That would have been the extent of his explanation.
1 I tried to solicit that particular explanation in relation to one
2 document, and it met with an objection, and I didn't see any point in
3 showing him additional documents that would have similarly met with
4 similar objections, and it would have just been a waste of the Court's
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic. D666.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Witness, you see that this is a monograph, it's called, "The
10 Golden Lily."
11 Can we please go to page 2 of this document. It shows the persons
12 who were actually awarded the Golden Lily between 1992 and 1995. Page 2
13 in the English as well, in the English.
14 Please focus on this person, Antunovic, Stipo, Nikola-Kava, first
15 photograph and the first name also. It says -- just a minute, please.
16 Antunovic, Stipe, Nikola, also known as "Kava," received the war
17 decoration, the Golden Lily, in 1994 as a member of the HVO,
18 110th Glorious Mountain Brigade, Operations Group 7-South" and then --
19 just a minute. Have you seen the photograph and the caption? I'll be
20 showing you another one and then I'll be asking you a question?
21 A. Yes, I've seen it.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Therefore, Your Honours, a person
23 who was awarded the Golden Lily is a member of the HVO 110th Glorious
24 Mountain Brigade, Operations Group 7-South.
25 Can we please turn to the next page of the document. The same
1 page in English. It's precisely what we see over here, "Lovric, Vinko,"
2 Ronoldo -- Ronaldo. You see he was killed on the 28th of December at
3 Mujkica Brdo, and he was a member of the Croat Armed Forces, the HOS;
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what I want to ask you about these two persons is this: I'm
7 merely singling these two out as an example.
8 You will agree with me that the Golden Lily was a decoration that
9 was meant to be awarded to members of the BH Army alone?
10 A. I agree with that. The Golden Lily was awarded to members of the
11 BH Army, to certain units of the HVO, and the HOS, who fought alongside
12 with the units of the BH Army. But in addition to this, the Golden Lily
13 was also awarded to other people who contributed to the armed struggle,
14 not just members of the army. There were a number of civilians, too, who
15 won this award, certain heads of municipalities and certain individuals
16 who were not themselves members of the Armed Forces.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
18 Your Honours, may we please have a number for this document.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
20 please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 821.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Vidovic, I wonder what the relevance of this
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, a whole number of
25 exhibits from the OTP were in reference to members of the El Mujahid
1 Detachment who were awarded the Golden Lily.
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would just like to ask one
4 Witness, the Golden Lily was given to fighters, combatants who
5 fought against the Serb enemy; is that right?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, I think a number
7 of these awards were also awarded in early 1993 and until the Washington
8 Agreement was signed, and that concerned battles against the HVO. So
9 these were not awarded for personal contribution to the struggle against
10 the Serbs alone.
11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] No, that's not what I was
12 saying. I wasn't referring only to the Army of the Republika Srpska, but
13 I was also talking about the people or the troops from the JNA at the
14 beginning of the war.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but not just for courage and
16 for their contribution to fighting the Army of Republika Srpska. Some
17 members of the BH Army got their Golden Lilies also at the time when there
18 was fighting going on with the HVO, early 1993 and all the way up until
19 the Washington Agreement as the fighting --
20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, now it's all
21 very clear.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues] ...
23 against the HVO.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, I was interrupted in seeking to lodge
25 my dissent against the admission of this document. It is hereby done.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 Q. I want to ask you some questions about the relations between
4 General Delic and the corps commander. You talk about this in paragraph
5 28 of your statement.
6 When talking about the relations between General Delic and General
7 Mahmuljin, it would be accurate to say, in fact, wouldn't it, that these
8 relations had nothing unusual or exceptional about them and nothing to
9 distinguish them from the way the relations that General Delic entertained
10 with any other high-ranking officers?
11 A. If I remember correctly, I said that the relations between General
12 Delic and the Commander of the 3rd Corps, General Mahmuljin, was
13 respectful and professional, in the military way. Both were military
14 officers, and they both knew their rights and responsibilities.
15 During my time with the Cabinet, I certainly never noticed that
16 the relations between the two were in any way special. They were the same
17 as relations between the general and any other corps commander or any
18 other subordinate commander, for that matter.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
20 Can the witness now please be shown P2131.
21 Q. Witness, have a look, please. It reads: "Information by the 3rd
22 Corps commander," dated the 2nd of June, 1995, and then it was sent to the
23 Presidency of the Republic of B and H, to the attention of Alija
24 Izetbegovic, the president.
25 Can we please look at the bottom half of the document so the
1 witness can see the signature. That's page 2 in the English. If we can
2 please have page 2 in the English. Right.
3 And now we can please go back to page 1 in the English and pull
4 the document down.
5 Q. Signed by 3rd Corps commander; is that right?
6 A. This signature looks like General Mahmuljin's signature, but I
7 can't establish its authenticity, and the same applies to the previous one
8 that you asked me to look at. It certainly does look like General
9 Mahmuljin's signature.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, fine. Let's pull the
11 document down a little bit, please, if we can.
12 Q. Can you look at the handwritten bit here. It says:
13 "Urgent via the Cabinet" --
14 Can we pull the English up a little, please, so we can see the
16 "Urgent via the office of the commander of the Main Staff,
17 Sarajevo. Deliver immediately."
18 Can we please show the document in such a way that we see the main
19 body of the document. Thank you.
20 This document is supposed to have reached the Cabinet at a time
21 when you were working there; right?
22 Could we please just zoom in so the witness can read the document.
23 A. I read the document yesterday -- rather, two days ago when I spoke
24 to the gentlemen from the OTP. I'd never seen this document before -- or,
25 rather, it had been shown to me in Sarajevo, but the first time I read it
1 was two days ago. This document never reached the Cabinet and was not
2 forwarded through the Cabinet. I am certain about that.
3 Q. M'mm-hmm, all right. You do agree that were this document to be
4 forwarded to the Cabinet, were it to reach the reception centre of the
5 General Staff, were they to see that it was addressed to General
6 Izetbegovic, they would have to forward it to Izetbegovic; would that not
7 be the correct procedure to follow? Can you explain that?
8 A. That was the established procedure, yes. The Communications
9 Centre of the General Staff, whenever they received documents that were
10 meant for someone else, for example, the Presidency, the Government, or
11 anyone else who was not a member of the Cabinet, all those who were in
12 communication and in touch with the Cabinet, those did not go to the
13 Cabinet directly; rather, they would be forwarded to whoever the recipient
14 happened to be. I have no idea why this handwritten note was put
15 there: "Urgent via the Cabinet." I know that that's now how these were
16 sent. It was from the Communications Centre that these documents were
17 forwarded to whoever the addressee happened to be.
18 Q. All right. Let's leave aside the handwritten note for a minute,
20 You do agree that this is not normal procedure, in terms of
21 communication within the command-and-control system, for information like
22 this to be forwarded to the president directly; it wasn't normal, wasn't
24 A. It is clear who informs the president. The commander informs the
25 president, and that is perfectly clear, if you look at the
1 command-and-control system. However, the institution of the commander
2 itself is being pushed aside here. So if all of this is accurate, the 3rd
3 Corps commander bypasses the commander and speaks directly to the
4 president of the Presidency, and this is certainly no established
5 procedure in the -- in military practice, this is not something that is
6 consistent with military rules.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 Your Honours, may this document be exhibited, please.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
10 please be given an exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 822.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
14 2802, P2802.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, may I interrupt you. Can we just
16 check the dates? It looks like the English and Bosnian dates are not
17 exactly the same. The Bosnian looks like a "5" instead of a "7".
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please lower the English.
19 There is a portion of the document that we can't see right now.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, I see the date says "5 December" now. Thank
21 you so much.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine.
23 Q. Witness, have a look, please. You were shown this document
24 previously by the OTP. It's another one of those. This is another
25 document produced by the General Staff?
1 A. I believe I spoke about this document in my statement and I said
2 it was produced in Kakanj, not in the Cabinet itself. And one thing I
3 find illogical about this document is that the Commander of the Supreme
4 Command Staff is hereby granting authorisation for travel. During all of
5 my time with the Cabinet, I don't remember the commander ever personally
6 authorising anyone's request for travel.
7 Q. You agree, don't you, that this was another document that was
8 encrypted before it was sent? We certainly wouldn't see it, we certainly
9 wouldn't see the signature. You said it was encrypted; right?
10 A. Yes, in the upper right corner we see when it was received by the
11 corps Communications Centre. You see that it was received on the 7th of
12 December, 1995, and you see the signature of whoever processed the
14 Q. All right. So this was not a document produced by --
15 A. No.
16 Q. -- the Cabinet?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You see that it says "Kakanj, the 5th of December, 1995"?
19 A. It's on the face of the document itself. Therefore, it wasn't
20 produced in Sarajevo, it wasn't produced in the Cabinet. This strikes me
21 illogical that the army commander would authorise travel in relation to an
22 individual soldier.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
24 Your Honours, may we please have a number, an exhibit number for
25 this document?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I haven't read the English part of it. It's never
2 come up, really.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please pull this up --
4 rather, pull it down? Ah, right.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Again, Mrs. Vidovic, I'm very sorry to keep
6 bothering you about questions of relevance, but I fail to understand the
7 significance of this document.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is another
9 document that the witness comments on in his statement, in paragraph -- I
10 believe it was paragraph 27. He was shown the document by the OTP. He
11 then proceeds to comment on it.
12 If we look at the heading above the document, one may infer that
13 the General Staff authorised a member of the El Mujahid Detachment to
14 travel abroad, and we've just heard the witness comment on that particular
15 point. And it's very important for me that the witness says what he said,
16 that General Delic did not issue those kinds of authorisations.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Are we then to conclude that it was ordinary
18 routine for the 3rd Corps to allow members of the El Mujahid Detachment to
19 leave the country and travel abroad whenever this was requested by a
20 member of the El Mujahid Detachment, but that the General Staff had
21 nothing to do with these permissions? Is that the significance of it?
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no, no, that's not what
23 I said. I said here I'm dealing with the issue of the authenticity of the
24 document, and the part that says the general did not permit or approve,
25 and I did not review the part that has to do with the 3rd Corps, but I
1 would not assert what you have just said, that it was something that was
2 routinely permitted. As far as I'm concerned, I am contesting the
3 authenticity of this document.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see. Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
6 please be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 823.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like for the witness to
10 look at document P1939, please.
11 Q. Witness, this is also a document that the Prosecutor showed you,
12 and in paragraph 26 of your statement you said that the signature appears
13 to be -- it was in the group of documents for which you said that the
14 signature seems to be the signature of General Delic.
15 Perhaps we can scroll down the document. It's page 2.
16 I would like you to read this document carefully. I believe you
17 read it earlier, because it was shown to you. And I would just like you
18 to particularly pay attention to the initials here, "FB/FH." According to
19 -- well, this first initial would lead us to conclude that you drafted
20 the document.
21 But first of all, from what I understood, "FH," the person with
22 those initials did not work in the Cabinet. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes. "FB" are my initials, but "FH," no.
24 Q. That person or such a person did not work?
25 A. No, no.
1 Q. Please, I believe that you read this act, and I would like to ask
2 you: Did you ever see this act before it was shown to you by the
3 Prosecutor or, rather, by his investigator?
4 A. Based on my recollection, and it's been 12 years since then, the
5 first time I saw it was when it was shown to me by the Prosecutor. That
6 was also when I looked at it strictly from the aspect of the signature.
7 Q. Please, I would like to comment now with you on the contents of
8 the document.
9 Could the English version be scrolled down, or actually can we go
10 back to the first page, the first page of the English version, please, and
11 also can you scroll it down so that Their Honours can read it.
12 Witness, please, it says here: "From January 15th, 1995, enable
13 access to prisoner of war camps established in the zone of the
14 responsibility of the 2nd and the 4th Corps, and carry out an assessment
15 of which captured Chetniks can be registered and which cannot."
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... Please, the
17 English, please.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. All right. Please, would you agree with me that the B and H Army,
20 in January 1995, especially the 2nd -- and we're talking about the 2nd and
21 the Corps here specifically -- did not have prisoner of war camps?
22 A. From what I know, in my period there were no prisoner of war
23 camps. I didn't know of them, and I never was in any prisoner of war
24 camp. I never went to one. But if you look at this document carefully,
25 it was drafted on the basis of a request by the State Commission, and I
1 believe that this was copied from this request or, rather, from this
2 agreement on access that was taken as the preamble of this act. I state,
3 with full responsibility, that I did not know about prisoner of war camps
4 and that I never went to any prisoner of war camp that was run by the Army
5 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
6 Q. What I want to ask you is if you drafted this document. Did you
7 draft it and have you ever seen it before?
8 A. As I said, I do not recall. I could affirm that I did not,
9 specially because of the initials "FH," because that person did not work
10 in the Cabinet and could not process this document.
11 Q. I would like to ask you something about the contents, please. It
12 is said here:
13 "Permit access to some prisoners, but not to others."
14 You knew what General Delic's position was in relation to
15 prisoners of war and generally to access to prisoners of war. Please,
16 it's correct, isn't it, that General Delic approved all activities of the
17 International Red Cross and Commissions for the Exchange of Prisoners of
18 War and of humanitarian organisations?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Did you ever have any example of General Delic's having a negative
21 attitude or if he ever said, "Do not permit access"?
22 A. No, I never attended any meeting at which the general denied
23 access to any prisoner of war camp or to places where prisoners were kept,
24 and I still assert that these were not camps, and I know that when I was
25 the commander of the Operations Group and when we had captured members of
1 the Army of Republika Srpska in Gorazde, that he had ordered me strictly
2 to enable access to all organisations that were in Gorazde, in the place
3 where the prisoners who had been captured during combat actions were held.
4 Q. In other words, his attitude could not be reconciled with the
5 selective registering of prisoners of war, in your knowledge?
6 A. That is correct.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Your Honours, if this exhibit -- if this document could be given
9 an exhibit number, please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a few questions.
11 Sir, do I understand you correctly, you say you didn't draft this
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really do not recall ever drafting
14 this document.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, this document was drafted four days after you
16 took up employment as a Chef de Cabinet of Mr. Delic. Do you know whether
17 there were any other "FB" -- persons by the initials "FB" in that
18 department around about this time?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Except for me, there was nobody else
20 with the initials "FB" at that time.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know who "FH" is?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have just said that the person
23 with the initials "FH" did not work in the Cabinet, and none of the
24 persons that we mentioned earlier, while I was giving my statement, bears
25 the initials "FH."
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you tell us who "FH" is?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no one in the Cabinet and in
3 the part of the Administration for Personnel and Legal Affairs that was on
4 the same floor where the Cabinet was, I also do not recall any person with
5 the initials "FH."
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh. I thought when you said the person with the
7 initials "FH" did not work in the Cabinet, you meant that he worked
8 somewhere else. That's not what you meant? You meant to say you don't
9 know of an "FH"?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, absolutely, I do not
11 recognise -- or I do not know a person who could have drafted this
12 document and who also bears the initials "FH."
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to proffer an explanation -- not even
14 an explanation, but -- yeah, just an explanation, from your view, how this
15 document might have come into existence if it was not drafted by you?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down the document a
17 little bit, please.
18 I don't know. The preamble of the document states on the basis of
19 what the document was drafted.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I see it's got a file number, "1/2-29." I
21 notice also that the B/C/S has typed in English "Urgent," not in B/C/S.
22 Would that be a peculiarity that surprises you?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Orgent" [phoen] would refer to
24 urgent documents, documents that had to be dispatched urgently, but I
25 really do not recall having drafted this document. I don't remember
1 seeing it in the Cabinet, and I do not recall any person with the
2 initials "FH" who could have processed this document, technically.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 Madam Vidovic, do you think we have a basis for admitting this
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would prefer not to
7 tender the document, but ...
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, then the document is not admitted. It's not
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Your Honours.
11 I am just going to put -- to try to finish before the break, and
12 maybe before.
13 Q. I would just like to ask the witness the following: Paragraph 31
14 of your statement, there you commented on excerpts of the war diary of the
15 3rd Corps. Do you remember that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Please, you never saw those war diaries before; is that correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. You don't know and you cannot tell us anything about the --
20 whether the contents are true or not?
21 A. No, but if you did read the statement, you will know that I
22 specifically said in the statement that that connection was strange and it
23 was contradictory for somebody from abroad to be given an observation post
24 somewhere. That connection or communication is very strange to me.
25 Secondly, in the military hierarchy, war diaries, reports and
1 other documents are lower-ranking documents than documents of command, so
2 the drafting of those documents were always treated in the same way. So
3 an order, a directive, a plan, is not the same, as well as sketches,
4 reports and other documents.
5 Q. You say that the Prosecutor showed you, on page 01851722, an entry
6 stating that General Delic called the post -- called by phone and was
7 connected to the post?
8 A. Yes, that is what I said, and I said that it was strange for this
9 communication to be carried out, and I remember that there was a special
10 column, "NGS" or something, and then there was an additional note
11 saying "General Delic." That is what I saw in the document.
12 Q. In any case, what I want to ask you is that you never arranged
13 such a telephone call yourself?
14 A. No, not at all. First of all, I believe that such a telephone
15 call was something that was difficult to actually arrange. Maybe it was
16 by mistake that this connection was put through, something like that
18 Q. Thank you very much. I would like to ask you just one more
20 I put several questions to you about the difficult situation in
21 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I just want to ask you something. Do you
22 remember the second half of September, 1995? Do you remember that in the
23 second half of September 1995, there was a danger that Bihac and the whole
24 Bihac region might fall and -- might fall, and that the situation in the
25 area of responsibility of the 5th Corps was very difficult, very serious?
1 A. I know that the situation in Bihac was difficult from the
2 beginning of the war and from the liberation activities and actions of the
3 5th Corps also, but I really cannot remember when this was. Was it in the
4 beginning of September, or I don't know whether this relates specifically
5 to early September, because in September, from what I remember, I don't
6 know when in September or October, there were the actions by the 5th Corps
7 when a significant part of this territory was liberated.
8 Q. Just one moment, Witness. I don't know if you understood me. I
9 was asking you about the second half of September, not the first half of
10 September. So we're talking about late September. Isn't it true that
11 you, together with General Delic, in late September 1995 visited the Bihac
12 area and spent time there because the situation there was exceptionally
13 difficult? This is what I'm talking about.
14 A. Yes, yes, yes, correct. After the liberation of
15 Bosanski Petrovac, Laniste and Kljuc, units of the 5th Corps were in an
16 exceptionally difficult situation, and staying in the area of the 5th
17 Corps, together with General Delic, I was in Kljuc when the situation was
18 really very difficult, very dramatic, and when some units of the 5th Corps
19 were pushed back and when some units practically suffered huge losses so
20 that they were not fit for combat at all.
21 Q. Do you agree that that was when General Delic spent at least two
22 weeks in the Bihac area in the second half of September 1995?
23 A. I don't know how long he spent there, but I know that I spent a
24 total of, I think, four days there. I was there for four days, but I went
25 with another team, and then General Delic came and I returned. We didn't
1 come back together, so I cannot really say how long he was there, how long
2 he spent in that area.
3 Q. So when you got there, General Delic was already there, you found
4 him there, and you left before him; is that correct?
5 A. Yes. Yes, I found General Delic already there, and I left that
6 area before he did. I returned to Sarajevo.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 Your Honours, I have no more questions for this witness at this
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
11 Mr. Menon.
12 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Re-examination by Mr. Menon:
14 Q. Witness, the first question that I'd like to put to you, it's
15 actually to clarify an answer that you had given to the Defence counsel.
16 And, Your Honours, the question appears at line 21 -- or page 21,
17 line 25 of the transcript.
18 And, sir, the question that was put to you was:
19 "Now, Mr. Buljubasic, now that we're talking about Srebrenica,
20 about the Srebrenica area, the tragedy also affected the following
21 places: Srebrenica, Cerska, Kamenica and Konjevic Polje; is that true,
23 And you answered:
24 "I'm not quite sure. I think the Srebrenica tragedy affected
25 Srebrenica alone. As for Cerska, Kamenica and Konjevic Polje, most of
1 those had fallen previously into the hands of the Republika Srpska Army."
2 Sir, my question to you is: When you refer to Kamenica, are you
3 referring to the Kamenica which is located in the area around Zavidovici
4 or another Kamenica?
5 A. No, no, I am speaking about Cerska, Kamenica and Konjevic Polje
6 which are in the broader area of Srebrenica, Zepa and that part down
7 there, not the Kamenica that is near Zavidovici. From what I recall,
8 these are areas that were lost in 1993. The population withdrew to the
9 Srebrenica enclave. So when we're talking about suffering, probably we're
10 thinking about the -- that area and the population in that area. So I'm
11 talking about Kamenica in the area or near Srebrenica.
12 MR. MENON: Now I would ask that the witness be shown Exhibit
14 Q. Sir, you were shown this document during the course of
15 cross-examination, and it refers to the disbandment of the El Mujahedin
16 Detachment. Are you aware of whether the El Mujahedin Detachment was, in
17 actual fact, disbanded pursuant to this order?
18 A. I don't know. I know for sure that immediately before this order,
19 at the time when this order was supposed to be executed, a member of the
20 El Mujahid Detachment had left the Bosnia and Herzegovina area. I don't
21 know the exact number involved, and I don't know if that was the entire
22 detachment, but for sure, some of the El Mujahid Detachment members had
23 left Bosnia and Herzegovina in early January. So I don't know if, in
24 accordance -- if, pursuant to this order, the unit was completely
25 dismantled or not, but I'm sure that in January, a number of the El
1 Mujahid Detachment members had left Bosnia and Herzegovina.
2 Q. And, sir, in the answer that you just gave, you said:
3 "I know for sure that immediately before this order, at the time
4 when this order was supposed to be executed, a member of the El Mujahedin
5 Detachment had left the BiH area."
6 Does that mean that you were aware that this particular order had
7 been created in December 1995, sir?
8 A. I didn't know about this order, because the order was drafted in
9 Kakanj, but -- this specific order, but I knew that measures had been
10 taken to dismantle the El Mujahid Detachment, and I know for sure that a
11 number of its members, and if I remember correctly this was from the Bihac
12 area, were evacuated. I think that they had gone back to countries of
13 their origin, if I remember correctly. I didn't say one detachment but I
14 said a part of the detachment, meaning a number of members of the
15 detachment. I cannot say this for the entire detachment. I never knew and
16 I don't know now the total number of members of the El Mujahid Detachment.
17 Q. And, sir, when you say: "I knew that measures had been taken to
18 dismantle the El Mujahid Detachment," can you tell us, sir, what you --
19 when you say "measures," what measures are you referring to?
20 A. I knew that it was the duty of the Army of the Republic of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, pursuant to the Dayton Accords, for all sides, and
22 this is stated in the accords, that all foreign armed forces on the
23 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina had to leave the area of Bosnia and
24 Herzegovina. I don't know the exact date that was the deadline. And I
25 know measures were taken at the level of the General Staff, and I know
1 that a part of them left, because I was in touch with and was in charge of
2 checking how these preparations were proceeding and if a number of those
3 people who were supposed to leave had actually left. And this is why I
4 know for sure that a part of them left sometime in January 1996.
5 Q. And you said, in the last answer that you gave: "I was in touch
6 with and was in charge of checking how these preparations were
7 proceeding." Can you explain what little bit what you mean
8 by "preparations"? What preparations were you involved in?
9 A. At the time, I was in Sarajevo. I was not involved in any direct
10 preparations, but this was regulated in the order, meaning that those
11 people should be treated just like other people when a unit is dismantled,
12 that weapons, equipment should be taken back from those people and then
13 for those people to be grouped in one place, and then from that place they
14 should be sent to the countries, from what I can recall, of their origin
15 or, rather, from which they came to the territory of Bosnia and
16 Herzegovina during the war.
17 I specifically did not participate in any preparations, and I said
18 that I never was in the area or location where El Mujahid was, and I never
19 knew and I don't know to this date, 12 years after the war, how big the
20 unit was, how many of them there were, or anything like that, or where
21 they came from, all the places they came from to the territory of Bosnia
22 and Herzegovina.
23 Q. And, sir, in the last answer that you just gave, you referred to
24 weapons, equipment being taken back. Do you know if weapons and equipment
25 were taken back from the El Mujahedin Detachment after that unit was
1 dismantled, sir?
2 A. I really don't know. This order was sent to the 3rd Corps
3 Command. People from the 3rd Corps Command were responsible for
4 implementing this order. I don't think I ever finished reading it. I
5 don't know what's in it, what the substance is. Therefore, those people
6 should know whether they seized any weapons or equipment from anyone, how
7 much exactly, and whether they carried through all the individual items
8 and paragraphs contained in this order.
9 MR. MENON: Thank you very much, sir.
10 Your Honour, I would ask that this exhibit be admitted into
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
13 please be given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 824.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 Would that then be a convenient time to take our break?
19 We'll come back at quarter to 6.00.
20 Court adjourned.
21 --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Menon, you said you have no further questions?
24 MR. MENON: No, Your Honour, I have no further questions.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Judge.
1 Questioned by the Court:
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I had only a small question to
3 put to you. It had to do with the order.
4 At some point in time, Witness, you said -- let me find the
5 place. I'm looking at the transcript. Yes, at some point in time, you
6 told us -- I can't find the right place, but do you remember you telling
7 us that you had not seen this order, or am I wrong, this order on
9 A. Of the El Mujahid Detachment, you mean?
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [In English] Oh, sorry. [Interpretation] Sorry.
11 Would you mind repeating, because I'd forgotten to put my headphones on.
12 A. Do you mean the order on the dismantling of the El Mujahid
14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Exactly.
15 A. That's true. This order was written in Kakanj. I didn't see it.
16 The first time I saw it was when I was being proofed for my evidence upon
17 my arrival in The Hague. That was when I saw it. And I saw it today
18 again. I think it was shown on our screens twice. Both the Defence and
19 the OTP wanted me to comment on it.
20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Then I fail to
21 understand one thing that you said on page 69, line 16. You said this:
22 "I was not involved directly in preparations, but that was
23 regulated or established in the order," you said.
24 Now, if you did not see this order, what order were you then
25 speaking about?
1 A. I meant this in a more general sense, I think. It was about the
2 provisions of the Dayton Peace Accords which said that all the
3 international armed forces that were in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time of
4 the conflict should leave Bosnia and Herzegovina. That is the military
5 component of the Dayton Accords. I think it also sets a deadline. I
6 don't know what the deadline is, but I think there is one.
7 I know that right after, certain measures were taken to comply
8 with these provisions or, rather, for members of the El Mujahid Detachment
9 to --
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Therefore,
11 you were not thinking of this order on dismantling the detachment; you had
12 in mind other orders or rules that were contained in the Dayton Agreement,
13 the Dayton Accords.
14 A. Yes, precisely.
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
17 Mr. Menon, any questions arising from the Judge's questions?
18 MR. MENON: No, Your Honour, no questions from the Prosecution.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 That brings us to the conclusion of your testimony, sir. Thank
23 you very much for taking the time to come and testify. You are now
24 excused. You may stand down. And do travel well back home. Once again,
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honours.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Pursuant to the Trial Chamber's earlier oral decision, the
6 Prosecution calls PW-9.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I beg your pardon. Apparently we will
8 then need to break for ten minutes for them to sort out what has to be
9 sorted out to hear PW-9.
10 Shall we break and come back at 6.00.
11 Court adjourned.
12 --- Recess taken at 5.50 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.
14 [The witness entered court].
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I confirm that we are in private session.
16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 5548-5557 redacted. Private session
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 Mr. Mundis.
16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 I'd ask that the witness now be shown the document marked PT2849.
19 Q. Witness PW-9, do you see the document on the screen in front of
21 A. I do.
22 Q. Do you recognise, sir, any of the names contained on this
24 A. I recognise several names.
25 Q. Can you tell us, sir, which names you recognise and why it is that
1 you recognise those names?
2 A. I recognise the name Eshref Hassan [phoen], Abduli Lahkaraci
3 [phoen], Muhamed Momodudja [phoen], Hans Walter Kris [phoen], Muhamed
4 Mualid [phoen]. Those are the names that I recognise.
5 Q. And why, sir, do you recognise these names? How do you know these
7 A. They were members of the El Mujahedin Detachment.
8 Q. And, sir, in paragraph 306 of your written statement, when you
9 refer to other members of the El Mujahedin Detachment receiving the Golden
10 Lily, are you referring to these persons?
11 A. Yes, I was.
12 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, the Prosecution would ask that this
13 document be admitted into evidence.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal or --
15 MR. MUNDIS: There's no need to since this witness's name does not
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not there. Okay, fine. PT2849 is admitted
18 into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 828.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 MR. MUNDIS: We'd ask that the witness now be shown the document
22 PT2851. PT2851.
23 Q. Again, sir, I would ask you if you recognise any of the names of
24 individuals contained on this document.
25 A. I recognise one name, Nedal Saleh, the third from the top on the
2 Q. Sir, this document purports to relate to the awarding of the
3 Silver Shield war decoration. Do you know what that is, sir, this Silver
5 A. It's also a war decoration, but of lower rank than the Golden
7 Q. And, Witness PW-9, again in your statement, your written
8 statement, at paragraph 306, where you make reference to members of the El
9 Mujahedin Detachment receiving the Silver Shield, are you referring to the
10 person Nedal Saleh?
11 A. Yes, I was referring to him, and there were some other Bosnians
12 who had received the Silver Shield.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we'd ask that this document be admitted
14 into evidence, please.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
16 please be given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 829.
18 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown PT1828.
20 Q. PW-9, do you see this document on the screen in front of you?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. Can you tell -- can you tell the Trial Chamber what this document
23 is, please?
24 A. It's a decision on appointment/promotion to the ranks of the Army
25 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
1 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask that we scroll through this eight-page
2 document, one page at a time, and I'd like you to tell us if you recognise
3 any of the names of the individuals who are listed on this document.
4 So perhaps if we could scroll down in the Bosnian version.
5 And when you're done with each page, if you'll just tell us, and
6 we'll turn to the next page.
7 A. On this page, I recognise the name "Muhamed Basic."
8 Q. Can you tell us, sir, who is Muhamed Basic?
9 A. Muhamed Basic was a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment. Here
10 it says that he was the commander of the 2nd Company, but he actually
11 worked in the social services of the detachment and was just formally
12 appointed as company commander and given a rank.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Could we please go to the next page in both the
14 Bosnian and English versions of this document.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These names are not familiar.
16 MR. MUNDIS: If we could then -- yes, thank you -- scroll to the
18 Q. Do you recognise any of those names, sir?
19 A. No.
20 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please go to the next page in the Bosnian
21 version and in the English version.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They're not familiar.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Then scroll down, please. Thank you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not familiar, either.
25 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please go to the next page in the Bosnian
1 version and in the English version. Actually, we need to skip ahead one
2 page in the English version.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not familiar.
4 MR. MUNDIS: Before we go to the next page, Your Honours, I would
5 ask that we go into private session, please.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
7 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These names are not familiar to me.
20 MR. MUNDIS:
21 Q. Let me ask you this, sir: Do you know a person by the name of
22 Abdulmelik Basic?
23 A. I didn't see him right away. Yes, I know the name Basic,
25 Q. How do you know Basic, Abdulmelik?
1 A. Abdulmelik Basic was also a member of the detachment. However,
2 his task was not the way it's put here, to be the Assistant Commander of
3 the Company for Morale. Abdulmelik was actually translating or
4 interpreting in the medresa, the religious school for the detachment.
5 Q. And when you say, sir, "the medresa" or "religious school," in
6 what location was this medresa that you've referred to located?
7 A. It was in the barracks of Vatrostalna in Zenica, which was the
8 barracks of the El Mujahedin Detachment.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Could we please scroll down to the bottom of the
10 Bosnian language version of this document, please.
11 Q. And I would ask you, sir, if you recognise any other names on this
13 A. I recognise the name "Nedim Haracic".
14 Q. And how do you recognise that name, sir, and how do you know this
16 A. Nedim Haracic was also a member of the detachment, but just like
17 the previous people mentioned, he wasn't the Assistant Commander for
18 Morale of the Company. He worked in the El Mujahedin Detachment's press
20 MR. MUNDIS: Could we please go to page 7, the next page in the
21 Bosnian version, which corresponds to page 12, I believe, of the English
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The name I recognise here
24 is "Muris Ribo."
25 MR. MUNDIS:
1 Q. And, again, PW-9, how do you recognise that name or how do you
2 know this person, "Muris Ribo"?
3 A. Muris Ribo was also a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment. He
4 worked as an interpreter or a translator during religious training for the
5 detachment. He was not actually performing the duties of Assistant
6 Commander for Morale.
7 MR. MUNDIS: And if we could finally go to page 8 of this document
8 and page 13 of the English version, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recognize any of these
11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, PW-9.
12 The Prosecution would ask that this document be admitted under
13 seal, please.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence under seal.
15 May it please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 830
17 under seal.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown the
20 document marked PT1732. That's PT1732.
21 And while that document is coming up:
22 Q. PW-9, do you know a person by the name of Delic, Saban?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. How do you know that person, sir?
25 A. Saban Delic was a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment.
1 Q. And do you know, sir, when Saban Delic joined the El Mujahedin
3 A. I don't know the exact date when he came.
4 Q. Do you see the document on the screen in front of you, sir?
5 A. I see the document.
6 Q. Can you tell us what this document is?
7 A. This is an order about deployment to new duties in units of the
8 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it refers to Saban Delic.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ask that the English one be scrolled up, please.
10 Let's see what's written on it.
11 MR. MUNDIS:
12 Q. Do you know, PW-9, if Saban Delic had been a member of another
13 unit before he joined the El Mujahedin Detachment?
14 A. I didn't know, and I don't know if he was a member of any other
15 unit before.
16 Q. Do you know, sir, or do you have any information about why a
17 document of this type would have been created?
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. This is an
20 invitation to speculate. How could the witness know that?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, there is information contained in the
23 witness's written statement that perhaps relates to that, and that's why
24 I've put this question.
25 Let me rephrase the question.
1 Q. PW-9, do you know or were you ever present at any meetings where
2 the subject matter of persons moving from one unit of the Army of the
3 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to another unit of the Army of the Republic
4 of Bosnia-Herzegovina was discussed?
5 A. I was present at such a meeting once.
6 Q. And can you tell us --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you go on, can we please see the end of
8 the document in English. I would like to -- I can't read the signatory to
9 this document. And, please, every time you show us part of the Bosnian,
10 show us the same part in the English, please.
11 MR. MUNDIS:
12 Q. PW-9, when you say you were present at such a meeting once, do you
13 recall the specifics, in terms of who was in attendance, where this
14 meeting was -- and where this meeting was?
15 A. This was a meeting at the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, a
16 meeting between the Commander of the El Mujahedin Detachment, Abu Maali,
17 and President Izetbegovic. Other than President Izetbegovic and Abu
18 Maali, I was also present at the meeting, as well as Abu Haris, who was
19 the first commander of the El Mujahedin Detachment. Also, Muris Supic was
20 present as well as Sabahudin Albani [phoen]. This was in the second half
21 of October 1994.
22 This meeting was where the transfer of individuals to the -- from
23 other detachments to the El Mujahedin Detachment was discussed.
24 Q. And do you know, sir, if such transfers had taken place prior to
25 this meeting on October 1994?
1 A. Before that, members of other units would come and join the El
2 Mujahedin Detachment. However, their status was not settled, or, rather,
3 the units they left would register them as deserters, and that is why
4 their status was not resolved, and that was the reason for the meeting
5 with President Izetbegovic.
6 Q. Now, sir, the meeting that you've discussed, you told us, was in
7 the second half of October 1994, and this document seems to be relating to
8 or dated in April 1994. Can you explain the date on this document in
9 relation to the meeting that you've just told us about?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection. The
12 witness did not draft this document, and I cannot see how the witness
13 could explain the connection between this document, the date of the
14 document, and the meeting that took place several months later.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis, if I may add my little confusion to
16 what Madam Vidovic is asking, the witness said he remembers a meeting and
17 that he attended. He doesn't link that meeting with this document.
18 MR. MUNDIS: The answer, Your Honours, concerning the meeting was
19 in direct response to a question that I put him about the subject matter
20 concerning individuals moving from or transferring from one unit to
21 another, and that's what this document is addressing.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's true. Okay.
23 MR. MUNDIS: And in response to that, he then told us about a
24 meeting which he said was in the second half of October 1994, and he
25 explained that in great detail. My question to him is if -- or what I'd
1 like to ask him to clarify, if he can, is why he's telling me about a
2 meeting in the second half of October 1994 in response to questions
3 concerning a document from April of 1994.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's just the issue. The meeting that he
5 attended has nothing to do with this document of April 1994. He's just
6 telling you about a meeting that he attended where the transfer of people
7 from one unit to the other within the Army of BiH took place, without
8 claiming that that meeting is related to this. These kind of transfers
9 might have taken place long before he attended the meeting in October.
10 They might have taken place long, again, after he had attended the
11 meeting, but he has not linked this meeting to this document.
12 MR. MUNDIS: That's -- Perhaps that was unclear, but that's
13 precisely what I was trying to ask the witness to do, if he can explain to
14 us why he's telling us about a meeting in October when I had asked him
15 about the issue as it relates to the document.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection again, Your Honour. The
18 witness is responding to the Prosecutor's question about the meeting, and
19 again that had nothing to do with this document.
20 MR. MUNDIS: Let me try this:
21 Q. Witness, I asked you about the document, and in response you told
22 us about a meeting.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You asked him about -- let's go to the question
24 that you asked, Mr. Mundis.
25 MR. MUNDIS: I think it's on line 13.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said, at line 24, page 93:
2 "PW-9, when you say you were present at such --"
3 I beg your pardon.
4 MR. MUNDIS: It's on line 13, Your Honour, on page 93.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page -- 13. Sorry.
6 "Do you know or were you ever present at any meetings where the
7 subject matter of persons moving from one unit of the army to another unit
8 were discussed?"
9 Any meeting, not this meeting -- not this document. Now, we don't
10 know how many times such meetings took place. He may have attended
11 this -- this meeting is the one that he remembers, without necessarily
12 claiming that it is related to this document.
13 MR. MUNDIS: I'm following.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I've ended. If you're still listening, then you
15 still don't follow me.
16 MR. MUNDIS: No, I'll simply move on to a different topic. I
17 don't think I can take this any farther with this witness.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
19 MR. MUNDIS: I will indeed. I would ask at this point that this
20 document be marked for identification.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document will be marked for identification.
22 May it please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI 831.
24 MR. MUNDIS:
25 Q. Witness PW-9, do you know an individual by the name of Mehmed
2 A. I don't know Mehmed Husic.
3 Q. Jusic, Mehmed Jusic.
4 A. I do know Mehmed Jusic, yes.
5 Q. How did you know, sir, Mehmed Jusic?
6 A. Mehmed Jusic was a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment, and
7 that's where I got to know him.
8 Q. Are you aware, sir, of any time during the course of the war when
9 Mr. Jusic left Bosnia and Herzegovina?
10 A. I know that Mehmed Jusic went to Malaysia for medical treatment.
11 Q. Can you tell us the circumstances under which Mr. Jusic went for
12 medical treatment?
13 A. Jusic had a serious injury of the face and eye, and it was the
14 practice in the El Mujahedin Detachment that the wounded who could not
15 properly be treated in Bosnia be treated abroad, and their treatment would
16 be paid for.
17 Q. Were there any formalities that you're aware of, sir, that were
18 required for such medical treatment abroad?
19 A. I did not perform tasks of that nature, so I'm not really familiar
20 with the formalities.
21 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask the witness be shown the document marked
23 Q. Sir, do you see the document on the screen in front of you?
24 A. Yes, I see it.
25 Q. Can you tell us what this document is, sir?
1 A. The first time I saw it was when the Prosecutor showed it to me,
2 so I didn't see it before that. It states that this is permission to
3 grant Mehmed Jusic travel to Malaysia for the purpose of medical
4 treatment. I do not see the entire document, the signature.
5 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please -- yes, thank you very much.
6 I would ask if the second page of this document could be shown to
7 the witness, please.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see the signature part of the -- thank you.
9 MR. MUNDIS: And perhaps if we could zoom out a little bit on the
10 English version so that we could see the whole page on the English
12 Q. Now, this -- this document, sir, can you tell us which unit was
13 the originating unit of this document?
14 A. I didn't see it before, I didn't draft the document, but it says
15 that it was drafted in the El Mujahedin Detachment.
16 Q. And, sir, during the time period you were in that detachment, did
17 you ever see any documents that originated from that unit, from your unit?
18 A. I did see some documents, but very few.
19 Q. And do you see the stamp on this document, sir?
20 Perhaps we could zoom in on that.
21 A. Yes, could we zoom in, please.
22 Q. Do you recognise that, sir?
23 A. This is not Abu El Maali's signature, definitely not, and this
24 stamp is not familiar. From what I can see -- or from what I know, the
25 army stamps had the number of the unit. This stamp is not familiar to me.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The witness mentioned the number of his unit's
2 stamp. The interpreter did not get the number.
3 MR. MUNDIS:
4 Q. Would you repeat the number, sir?
5 A. 5689, military unit 5689.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness, other
8 than that, also said a whole sentence that was not recorded in the
9 transcript. He literally said, on page 99, after line 16, he said other
10 than that, the El Mujahid Detachment had a different stamp. That was not
11 recorded in the transcript.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we get assistance if -- okay.
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Well, I heard it in the French
14 interpretation, I heard what Ms. Vidovic just mentioned.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 Mr. Mundis, it's five past 7.00.
17 MR. MUNDIS: I would suggest we adjourn for the evening at this
18 point. We'll return to this tomorrow, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We'll take the adjournment and come back
20 tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the same courtroom, sir.
21 Court adjourned.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of
24 November, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.