2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, everybody.
7 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honours. This is
9 case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 May we have the appearances for today, starting with the
13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Good morning, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around
15 the courtroom. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, Aditya Menon, Anna
16 Svensson, and our case manager, Alma Imamovic.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 And for the Defence?
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
20 morning to my learned friends from the OTP, to everyone in and around the
21 courtroom. I'm Vasvija Vidovic, with Nicholas Robson, representing
22 General Rasim Delic, with legal assistants Lejla Gluhic, Lana Deljkic and
23 Asja Zujo.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
25 Madam Vidovic, before we call you, (redacted)
3 At the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole
4 truth, and nothing else but the truth.
5 I remind you that you are still bound by that declaration. Thank
6 you very much, and I'm sorry for what I just said.
7 Madam Vidovic?
8 WITNESS: PW-9 [Realtime transcript read in error
9 "PW-8"] [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]
12 Q. Good morning, Witness. I hope you rested well and we can
13 continue. Yesterday, we talked about Sheik Enver Saban, and in relation
14 to that, I just want to put one question to you.
15 The Sheik was connected to the activities of the Egyptian
16 Al-Jama'ah, Al-Islamiyah, if I pronounced it correctly; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, there were some links, I am aware of that, between Sheik
18 Enver and the Egyptian Samat Al-Islamiyah, although I am not sure if that
19 is true or not.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just interrupt, I see that the record
21 states that the name of the witness is PW-8. I thought it was PW-9.
22 We'll just make sure that we know it's PW-9.
23 You may proceed. Thank you.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that is correct.
Thank you, Witness. Now I'm going
to ask you something else. It
1 has to do with a group of questions put to you in your statement. It has
2 to do with discipline in the El Mujahedin Detachment.
3 When you talked about the El Mujahedin Detachment, you said, in
4 paragraph 106 of your statement, that the detachment command wanted to
5 have respect, order and discipline, which meant that they should be
6 respected by ordinary, regular people and in the environs; is this
8 A. Yes, I did say that in my statement.
9 Q. The detachment had camps that were monitored; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. There were guards, and it was known who was entering and who was
12 exiting the detachment?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. In the detachment, there were rules of conduct?
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. We saw that the Shura pronounced disciplinary measures and acted
17 as a kind of military tribunal; would you accept that?
18 A. Yes, the Shura did hand down disciplinary measures, that is
19 correct, although such measures were also passed down by some responsible
20 people in the detachment, not just by the Shura. There was no military
21 tribunal, as such, within the detachment.
22 Q. You also said that some responsible people and the Shura passed
23 down disciplinary measures. This was not done outside the detachment?
24 A. Yes, this is correct, it was done inside the -- or within the
25 detachment structures only.
1 Q. And it was done in accordance to the detachment rules?
2 A. Yes, according to detachment rules.
3 Q. Would it be correct to say that the Shura and these responsible
4 people in the detachment did not allow interference in affairs that they
5 considered to be their own in the detachment, they did not allow anyone
6 else outside of the detachment to interfere in what they considered to be
7 their own affairs; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You said that members of the detachment were trained also in
10 respect of prisoners of war. (redacted)
12 Your Honours, I would like to go into private session, please.
13 Thank you.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we move into private session.
15 [Private session]
11 Page 5670 redacted. Private session
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 666.
10 Q. As you can see, Witness, this is an act of the Security Service
11 Department of the 3rd Corps from the 21st of June, 1995, and again it
12 relates to the events in the El Mujahedin unit.
13 I would now like the witness to look at page 2 of this document.
14 This is page 3 in the English version. Can we scroll down the English
15 version, please. Thank you very much.
16 Can we look at the last paragraph?
17 Witness, I'm going to ask you something. You see a part here
18 that's underlined. Could you please read that?
19 It says here that the information is that "Nebil Al Misi" [phoen]
20 and someone else had set out to the front lines, and since they did not
21 know the way, they found themselves 15 metres from Chetnik lines and the
22 shooting that ensued, the -- Nebil was hit, but Mustafa did not know
23 whether he was killed after that. An operation was carried out. Two
24 Chetniks were killed and two heads were brought."
25 Please --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down, Madam Vidovic.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. Would you agree that from this document, we can see that this
4 event, relating to the beheading, took place in action, in the course of
5 an action?
6 A. Yes, that is correct. That is one of the cases that I mentioned,
7 and I mentioned all these particulars in my statement. This happened to
8 happen in my zone of responsibility. This was on the 29th of May, 1995.
9 That was when the action was. I don't know the date that is on the
10 document, but I think that that was the time that it happened. It was
11 shortly after the first action on the Zavidovici front.
12 Q. So these people were killed in battle, and then the beheading took
13 place; am I correct?
14 A. Yes, that is correct.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can put the document away now.
16 I would like the witness to look at Exhibit 665 now, please.
17 Q. I would like to draw your attention to the middle of this
18 document, where it says:
19 "During the killing of a member of this unit ..."
20 If you can see that. Perhaps we can scroll down the English
22 This relevant part for us begins with the words: "When one of the
23 members ..." Do you see that part? Perhaps it would be the easiest thing
24 if I quoted it. It says:
25 "When one of the members of
the El Mujahedin unit was killed,
1 they organised a squad of ten fighters who went out in front of the lines
2 of defence, liquidated a number of Chetniks, slit the throats of two of
them, and carried their heads through the villages along the
5 My question to you is: Do you agree that in this document, this
6 same event is being described? Can you please take a look?
7 A. Yes, that is correct, the same event is being described.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We can put this document
9 away now.
10 Q. I was thinking of the event that we discussed in connection with
11 the previous document, number 666. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I would now like to draw your attention to paragraph 197 of your
14 statement. You described another event where it is said that the Arabs
15 from the line brought the head of Momir, a policeman. Please, can you
16 tell us what you know about this event that has to do with this beheading?
17 A. This event or incident took place shortly after our second
18 operation on the Vozuca front. Abu Sabit Masri, who was responsible for a
19 section of the line, led a group to -- into reconnaissance towards the
20 Serbian Army lines, and during this reconnaissance a sabotage attack was
21 carried out on several dugouts on the Serb lines. And on that occasion,
22 some -- I think three members of the military police were killed. I think
23 it was either the military or the civilian police, I'm not sure anymore,
24 who happened to be on the line of the Army of Republika Srpska. Their
25 heads were cut off and brought to the
1 Q. So the beheading of Momir, the policeman, in no way can be linked
2 with the beheading of any prisoner of war; is that correct?
3 A. No, it cannot. I remembered his name. Their documents, IDs, were
4 brought, and a diary was found on one of the policeman, too. I think that
5 they were from Srbac.
6 Q. You said, if I understood correctly, that you remembered this
7 name. Can you remember this name?
8 A. Momir. I'm talking about Momir. That's the name I remembered, I
9 think Momir Mitrovic, something like that.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.
11 Your Honours --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did I hear well that the name is Momir Mitrovic?
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
14 Q. Well, Witness, did you say "Momir Mitrovic"?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we move into
17 private session once again, please.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just briefly.
20 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You will agree with me that the Security Service in the detachment
19 that you described was not an organ of the Security Service of the Army of
21 organs of the Military Security Service of the Division or of the Corps,
23 A. Yes, that is correct. That is a service formed by the Detachment
24 Command, and it was solely responsible to the Detachment Command.
25 Q. What Beganovic actually did was to be in charge of the camp
2 A. Yes. That was to take care of the Vatrostalna base that was the
3 Command of the detachment, and also to take care about the discipline of
4 the members of the El Mujahedin Detachment who at that time were in
6 Q. So he did not gather data for the Corps security organ?
7 A. No, not at all, that is correct.
8 Q. He did not work according to their instructions, the instructions
9 of the security organ of the 3rd Corps, according to your knowledge?
10 A. No, he worked according to Muatez's instructions.
11 Q. Awad Ajman either did not carry out the duties of a commander, he
12 was a translator, was he not?
13 A. Yes, Ajman Awad was working as a translator, mostly with Muatez,
14 and he did not have any particular function in the El Mujahedin
16 Q. Witness, thank you. I'm just going to ask you to pause between
17 question and answer so that the transcript can keep up with my questions
18 and your answers.
19 Now I would like to put some more questions to you that have to do
20 with the existence of some other services within the detachment.
21 In paragraph 148 of your statement, you mentioned the personnel
22 service, and you said that in the course of 1995, it was better organised.
23 Now I would like to put some questions to you so that we can see what kind
24 of service it was.
25 I want to ask you: The detachment did not have an actual
1 personnel service that registered all the fighters?
2 A. The personnel service did keep a register of the members of the El
3 Mujahedin Detachment, so I don't know what you're thinking of
4 specifically. That was its assignment.
5 Q. What I mean is this: It did not have a service that took
6 passports from the foreigners, registered them, provided the appropriate
7 municipal organs with the information or the municipal ministry, provided
8 them with information about members of the detachment, something that
9 other army units did? This is what I was thinking of. But can you please
10 wait for the question to be recorded.
11 A. The personnel service in the detachment did not do that. There
12 was a separate service for newly-arrived Arabs. That was called "The
13 Command for Arabs," which did something similar to what you are saying
14 now. They would take their passports, et cetera, but the information was
15 not passed on to the 3rd Corps Command.
16 Q. Although the 3rd Corps Command insisted on this, did it not? You
17 know that the 3rd Corps Command insisted on this?
18 A. Yes, I do know that. However, they received only information by
19 nicknames, not by the real names of the detachment members.
20 Q. Fighters did not have personal ID cards or register cards?
21 A. No, they did not have those in the detachment.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Your Honours, at this point I would like to go back briefly into
24 private session again.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 5679-5680 redacted. Private session
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
10 Exhibit 591.
11 Q. Before the document turns up on our screens, in the detachment one
12 knew that the Security Service was harbouring a certain amount of mistrust
13 towards the Command and the detachment and that they were holding them
14 under some sort of treatment; is my understanding correct?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. Please look at this document now. It's a short document produced
17 by the Security Service Department, dated
18 heading is: "List of members of the El Mujahedin unit, hereby requested
19 by." Have a look, please?
20 A. Can we zoom in, please?
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in, please. And I can
22 also -- or we can see better now.
23 The witness is done reading. Can we bring the English back on our
24 screens, please. Thank you.
25 Q. Based on this document, there is an order by the 3rd Corps
1 commander -- or, rather, the document reads that:
2 By an order of the 3rd Corps commander, the manpower levels of
3 the El Mujahedin unit were restricted, and further recruitment of fighters
4 from abroad and domestically was suspended, at least by the 22nd of April,
6 My question about that -- here we are, April 1995. Did anyone in
7 the detachment actually know that any further recruitment of any sort of
8 members, domestic or foreign, to the El Mujahedin Detachment was, in fact,
10 A. Yes, that was a well-known fact. I, myself, saw the order at the
11 time it was issued.
12 Q. So was this order complied with?
13 A. New members were being recruited to the very last day of the
14 detachment existence, so the order was not complied with.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. We can put
16 this document away now.
17 Q. And now for logistication [as interpreted], logistication of the
19 During your evidence yesterday, if my understanding was correct,
20 you mentioned that, in logistical terms, the detachment was receiving
21 symbolic assistance from the army. You described that it had its own
22 logistics, and you mentioned some humanitarian organisations which the
23 detachment had established, itself.
24 Can you tell us briefly how this worked, if you know?
25 A. As for its logistics, the detachment was left to its own devices,
1 in a way. Any support that came from the army was very sporadic and
2 insufficient, if I may put it that way. Everything the detachment
3 required, in terms of food, clothing, weapons and the like, was bought by
4 using donations that we had secured from abroad in most cases.
5 Speaking of the humanitarian organisations that I referred to in
6 my statement, their assistance was used to get certain special items that
7 couldn't be obtained in Bosnia, so they had to be obtained from abroad,
8 such as signals equipment and the like.
9 Q. In paragraph 72 of your statement, you say that it was Muatez who
10 decided which sort of military equipment would be purchased and which not?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. In paragraph 143, you say that you obtained vehicles, yourself,
13 for the purposes of the detachment. Is that right?
14 A. Yes. Vehicles were purchased both domestically and abroad.
15 Q. In paragraph 84, you say that you received some salaries, the
16 amount being 110 [as interpreted] Deutsche mark, but you had no idea where
17 the money had come from; right? You remember that?
18 A. Yes, it was 80 Deutsche mark, not 110.
19 Q. Thank you very much. I said "100" and the transcript reflects
20 "110," but you say 80. All right.
21 Can the witness now please be shown Exhibit 782.
22 Witness, this is another document entitled: "Information
23 produced by the Security Service Administration of the 3rd Corps." The
24 date is 20th of June, 1995. Please focus on paragraph 2. It talks about
25 contact being established between Ebu Meali and Ebu Ejub. I quote:
1 "In a conversation, Ebu Meali informs Ebu Ejub that a group of
2 Bosniaks is coming and to give them a 15-day rest, 100 Deutsche mark, and
3 three kilograms of meat."
4 So is it true that funds for salaries were secured by the
5 detachment, itself, as this document might lead us to conclude?
6 A. In addition to the salaries that were paid to the detachment,
7 sometimes monetary assistance would be granted to certain members of the
8 detachment, in keeping with what was actually possible and in keeping with
9 the needs of each individual.
10 Likewise, after every operation, the war booty, in terms of
11 weapons, would be estimated in financial terms, and then this would be
12 divvied up and distributed to whoever had been involved in the operation
14 Q. All these funds were actually secured by the detachment command,
15 weren't they?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.
18 I'm moving on to something different now. But before I do, I
19 would like us to see a video clip now. It's the same one that the OTP
20 showed you yesterday. I have it here as P6199, but actually it's Exhibit
22 Could my learned friends from the OTP please play the video, since
23 their version has subtitles? Could you please play back to us General
24 Delic's speech?
25 [Videotape played].
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I thank my learned friends.
2 Q. You testified about this clip yesterday, and you said that the
3 atmosphere prevailing in this video clip did not reflect the actual
4 situation when you were there. First of all, do you agree that this took
5 place on the 1st of January, 1996, in a certain institution, and where was
7 A. Yes, it was a huge hall, a sports hall of the army hall in Zenica.
8 It's in a neighbourhood known as "Mokusnica" if that means anything to
10 Q. Does a single shot from this video show this gym hall or sports
11 hall where you say the ceremony actually took place?
12 A. No, nothing even remotely like what actually happened.
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question.
14 I would like to see the videotape at the point when Mr. Delic
15 speaks and behind him we see sort of a cupboard or a shelf, a bookshelf,
16 something that looks like a bookshelf.
17 May I please see that excerpt, please.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is something that
19 I needed to have clarified.
20 Can you please play again General Delic's speech.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] No, that's right, I'm only
22 interested in the excerpt when General Delic speaks. And also in view of
23 what the witness told us yesterday, that is, that the ceremony took place
24 inside and not outside, therefore the scene does not correspond to what he
25 remembered, so I would just like to clarify that point because the
1 speakers were maybe speaking inside a building and maybe there were some
2 people outside. So I would just like to clarify that point.
3 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps, Your Honours, it might take us a moment to
4 find that actual part of the videotape, and perhaps we can do that and
5 Mrs. Vidovic can continue, and we can come back to that in a few moments,
6 once we've identified what we think Your Honour is referring to, just to
7 save some time.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, may we
9 proceed like that?
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely, no problem.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. You said that the event took place at a farewell ceremony in an
13 enclosed space; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, that is correct, and nobody stood outside. They were all
15 inside. Everybody could come inside the hall or they were staying in
16 the -- standing in the corridor or on the stairs in front of the hall, but
17 nobody was standing outside, and nobody outside could hear what was
18 actually going on in the hall.
19 Q. You saw on the video different scenes of speeches. You can see
20 the speakers, you can see the mass or the crowd, you can see the Mujahedin
21 with their flag. Please, were you ever present -- did you see or hear
22 General Delic address the Mujahedin at any occasion anywhere, other than
23 this event that you mentioned?
24 A. This is the first time that I personally saw General Delic, and I
25 believe that the other members of the detachment had never seen him
1 before, either, never mind have him address them, except on television.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand the answer. The question was:
3 "Please, were you ever present -- did you see or hear General
4 Delic address the Mujahedin at any occasion anywhere, other than this
5 event that you mentioned?"
6 Now, I underline those last words. Now, the answer says:
7 "This is the first time that I personally saw General Delic ..."
8 I'm not quite sure which first time is this is. Now, in court, or
9 at that location that you're referring to?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This relates to this occasion that I
11 was talking about,
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for the
15 From what I understand, the OTP has found -- please, can you now
16 play this segment that Her Honour Judge Lattanzi asked for.
17 Q. Witness, now I would like you to look at this scene. Her Honour,
18 Judge Lattanzi, asked you about that, and I believe that Judge Lattanzi
19 will have more questions to put to you.
20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes. Go ahead, Ms. Vidovic.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Witness, please, you see General Delic here, and you see an
23 enclosed space, and you see a bookcase or a cupboard there. Does this
24 image correspond to the part of the location where the ceremony took
1 A. No, this doesn't resemble it at all. You can see General-- the
2 general sitting here. He was actually giving a speech. There was a
3 microphone in front of him in the hall itself of the army hall. There was
4 quite a large stage. There were no cupboards or book bookshelves or
5 cases, anything like that.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what the witness said
7 was that he gave the speech standing up, and this was not recorded in the
9 Q. Is that correct, did I understand you correctly?
10 A. Yes, that is correct.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the witness's view of this picture? Does
12 he say this person is standing or is he still sitting? And if, whichever
13 position he takes, can he explain why?
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Witness, can you explain that?
16 A. What I can see here is that he is sitting, and that is the
17 position of the body, and the hands are -- or arms are leaning on a desk.
18 Q. In any case, Witness, please, you saw the speech with your own
19 eyes. Is this an image -- does this photograph with this cupboard
20 correspond to that image of the stage that you mentioned where this speech
21 was given from?
22 A. No, this does not resemble the image of that stage, no.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we run the tape a little bit, please?
24 [Videotape played]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would that still be in the same speech?
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Can you please answer that?
5 A. I'm not sure that I understand the question well.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it still the same speech, the same occasion
7 where you said he was standing -- or sitting, rather, with his arms on a
8 desk which I didn't see? Is it the same occasion, would you say?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it's not the same occasion.
10 This is happening in the open. You can see trees in the background, and
11 this is not how it was at that farewell ceremony.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I don't see trees. I see lines. Are they
13 trees or do you know?
14 So is it your testimony, sir, that what we see here is a different
15 occasion from what we saw a few minutes ago?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 Madam Vidovic.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, I'm getting confused now. Are we
20 to understand that neither this picture, nor the former picture where he
21 was sitting, neither of these two pictures were actually taken from the
22 farewell party on 1st January 1996 in Zenica; is that what we are to
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour, neither one.
25 And I just wanted to clarify something in relation to your question to the
2 Q. Witness, please, no image in this video footage corresponds to the
3 situation in which this other speech was given; is that correct?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
5 MR. MUNDIS: I'm happy for the witness to answer the question, and
6 then I'd like to put some comments on the record, if I may.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
8 A. Yes, that is correct, no scene. Yesterday, when we were looking
9 at the earlier part of the tape, the stage where General Sakib Mahmuljin
10 is speaking, you can see President Izetbegovic standing next to him, and
11 he wasn't present either. So this does not correspond, absolutely, to
12 what was actually happening then. No image from the video footage does
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
15 MR. MUNDIS: I'm reluctant to intervene at this point, but I do
16 believe it's necessary in order to avoid any unnecessary confusion.
17 When the Prosecution initially filed its motion on 25 September
18 1997 to add this clip to its exhibit list, our position was quite clear,
19 and it's stated in paragraph 2 of that motion. I'm not going to indicate
20 what it is.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, yes.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Our position was quite clear.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Madam Vidovic, sorry, your opposite number
24 stood up while you were asking --
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm concerned that
1 now, with this explanation, of course the Prosecutor will influence the
2 witness. I do not want the witness to hear this explanation. We all know
3 what it says in the submission, but I think that in this way the
4 Prosecutor can interfere or influence the answers by the witness.
5 MR. MUNDIS: That's precisely why I'm referring to the paragraph
6 numbers of our written pleading, where the Prosecution's position is quite
7 clear on this point. That was all I was going to say, so that we can
8 avoid any unnecessary confusion regarding what this clip is, and I have
9 nothing further to say. And of course I'm not going to say anything that
10 would taint the witness's testimony, but I do refer you back to our
11 initial filing on the 25th of September, 2007, where the Prosecution view
12 was quite clear on this matter.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
14 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise, Your
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Maybe we could ask the witness if he knows which
18 occasion this live clip is then from, because it appears as if the footage
19 of General Delic seems to correspond to the written words, the movements
20 of his mouth seem to be those that actually came down in the transcript.
21 So it looks, at least from this clip, as if this is a live recording of
22 General Delic's speech and what we see on the transcript corresponds to
23 what he's actually saying in the video, so the issue is now: Does the
24 witness know which occasion this was, if it was not on the 1st of January?
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Witness, I asked you earlier if the General addressed the
2 El Mujahid. Do you know at all where these images were taken, what
3 occasion it was?
4 A. Well, let me say again that General Delic never addressed members
5 of the detachment. As for this footage, I think I know where it comes
6 from. I think this is from the ceremonial lineup --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are requested to repeat your answer, sir. The
9 interpreters didn't hear.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have already said and I repeat,
11 General Rasim Delic never addressed the members of the El Mujahedin
12 Detachment except on the occasion on the 1st of January, 1996, in the hall
13 of the army in Zenica. I believe that this footage is from a ceremonial
14 review of the army in Zenica, which was not attended by members of the
15 El Mujahedin Detachment.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. [No interpretation]
18 A. This footage was shown several times on Bosnia and Herzegovina
20 Q. I would just like to repeat the question. I asked the witness:
21 What was the basis of his testimony regarding to the location of this
22 speech, and the witness then answered that this was shown several times on
23 television. Is that correct, Witness?
Yes, that is correct. It was
25 Television, and even in the corner of the image you can see that there is
1 the TV "BiH" logo.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we can focus on the
3 upper right-hand corner. I don't know if that's possible. All right.
4 I would like to put more questions to you about this footage.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to put two or three
7 short questions to you now.
8 Q. From what I understood, you did not recognise the voice of General
9 Delic. Is that correct?
10 A. That is correct. I said that the voice was very like his voice,
11 but I cannot assert that that was actually the voice of General Delic.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] What I -- Your Honours, the witness
13 answered that the voice slightly resembles, but here it's entered as "very
14 much resembles." It's opposite from what the witness said.
15 Q. Witness, would you please repeat, in relation to the voice, what
16 you said?
17 A. Yes, that is correct, it resembles the voice of General Delic.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, thank you very much.
19 Would this be a convenient time?
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, very well, and I will
21 continue with two or three questions in relation to this after the break.
22 Perhaps I can put two short questions now.
23 Q. Witness, please, what you said yesterday is that Delic held, on
24 that occasion -- or gave on that occasion an appropriate -- a suitable
25 speech, and then you said, "What I heard on the video did not resemble
1 that situation." And based on that, I conclude that you did not recognise
2 the speech of General Delic in that speech that was played on this video.
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. It was a known fact that the Mujahedin did not like NATO; is that
6 A. Yes, that is correct.
7 Q. And it was not an opportunity to mention NATO forces and to
8 address NATO forces during a farewell address to them; is that correct?
9 A. That is correct. When I listened to this video, this seemed very
10 inappropriate to me for an occasion such as that.
11 Q. You would remember that he said something like that on that
12 occasion on
13 A. I believe that I would have remembered it, because that would
14 grate on one's ears considerably.
15 Q. You don't remember that, and you also did not hear him talking
16 about command and control in the detachment on that occasion; is that
18 A. Yes, that is correct, and it seems to me not to make sense like
The detachment was already dismantled and most people left
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise to the
22 Trial Chamber, but I have been asked by Sense, who are broadcasting this
23 hearing, that the public is very interested in listening to this, and this
24 is why I tried to finish a little bit earlier before the actual break, and
25 I apologise.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand that last paragraph.
2 We'll take a break and come back at quarter to.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I didn't say --
4 --- Recess taken at
5 --- On resuming at
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 I would now like to ask some questions that have to do with the
9 attitude or the relationship between the El Mujahedin Detachment and the
10 3rd Corps.
11 Q. Yesterday, in your testimony, the Prosecutor - and also when you
12 were giving the statement and in the preparation for your testimony -
13 showed you many orders from the 3rd Corps that had to do with the El
14 Mujahedin Detachment. In connection with those orders, I would like to
15 ask you the following, you personally: In relation to the orders from the
16 Corps did not -- in connection thus with those orders, did not communicate
17 with members of the 3rd Corps; is that correct?
18 A. Yes. The documents that were shown were documents that I saw for
19 the first time when the Prosecutor showed them to me.
20 Q. The Prosecutor showed you documents that had to do with joint
21 actions of the detachment and members of the 3rd Corps, and in connection
22 with that, I would like to clarify certain matters.
23 It's not in dispute that the El Mujahedin Detachment fought in
24 actions, including actions in July and September 1995, and some other
25 actions that you mentioned. However, you would agree with me that the
1 detachment did not participate in those actions then, when the Corps
2 ordered it, but when this decision was made by the Shura or the Emir;
3 would that be a fair conclusion?
4 A. The decision about when there would be an action was taken, in
5 principle, by the staff of the detachment, headed by Muatez; in principle,
6 of course. That was the rule. Those who made the preparations for the
7 operations would decide when the detachment would be ready for action.
8 Q. You have just said -- well, you mentioned preparations. Am I
9 correct if I believe that the detachment fought pursuant to the plan
10 drafted by that special unit for preparation and planning or the Emir?
11 A. Yes, that is correct. The detachment, itself, planned absolutely
12 everything that had to do with the operation.
13 Q. We saw some orders where it says, for example, the detachment
14 should take part in an action according to the plan of the 35th Division.
15 When it participated in actions, did the detachment fight pursuant to the
16 division plan or pursuant to its own plan?
17 A. The detachment executed operations according to its own plans. I
18 believe that the purpose of the action or the plan was to inform other
19 units that the detachment was planning or executing such-and-such an
20 action at such-and-such a sector.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. At this point, I would
22 like you to look at document P1726.
23 Q. Can you please look at this document. I would like to say that
24 this is an order by the 3rd Corps Command
25 ordering the resubordination of units. I would like you -- and now --
1 yes, very good.
2 If we can now please look at paragraph 1. According to -- this is
3 the time in which, thus, you were a member of the detachment; is that
4 correct? And this order refers to the detachment?
5 A. Yes, that is correct.
6 Q. Please, would you agree that it says in the document, on the basis
7 of need to join the units or unify the units, link up the units more
8 easily, and because of the system of control and command:
9 "I order the El Mujahedin Detachment ..."
10 And then something:
11 "... SDB to be resubordinated to the 330th Light Brigade in all
12 elements of the control and command."
13 And it seems that in the signature, we have Brigadier Mehmed
15 Well, what I want to ask you is the following, please: Thus, it
16 is ordered here that the El Mujahedin Detachment, in all elements of
17 control and command, on the day of -- I'm going to ask you to remember
18 this date --
19 all elements of command and control to the 330th Light Brigade. Please,
20 it's correct, isn't it, that this resubordination is de facto -- is
21 something that de facto never happened?
22 A. This is the first time that I am seeing this order. I am aware
23 that members of the detachment took over a section of the line from the
24 330th Brigade on the
25 sort to the Command of the 330th Light Brigade.
1 Q. So there was no resubordination that took place. The detachment
2 never entered under the command of this brigade, as was ordered?
3 A. No, never.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be
5 given an exhibit number, please.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, it can, but can we just see the heading of the
7 document in the English. And may it please be given an exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 845.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the document be put away,
12 At this point, I would like the witness to look at P1727.
13 Q. For the transcript, Witness, if we can just look at the beginning
14 of the -- oh, we can see. This is a document of the 3rd Corps of the 5th
15 of April -- the 3rd Corps Command of
16 Can we please look at the place where the signature is.
17 Judging by the document, it seems to be signed by the corp
18 commander, but now I would like to go back to the first page of this
19 document because I want to ask you about a fact.
20 You probably have not seen this order before you said that, but I
21 would like to ask you about the fact that has to do with the El Mujahedin
22 Detachment. It's quoted in this order.
23 Your Honours, if we can go back to page 1.
24 You can see that on
25 Corps is issuing an order for the formation of OG-3 North, whose
1 composition should, among other units, also include the El Mujahedin
3 This is page 2 in the English, Your Honours, page 2, 2, page 2 of
4 the English version.
5 And, Witness, what I would like to ask you is the following: We
earlier just now a document with the date
7 two days ordering the resubordination to the 330th Brigade. That is what
8 I asked you to remember, if you recall.
9 A. Yes, I do.
Now we have a document of
11 the formation of Operations Group North. That should also include the
12 El Mujahedin Detachment. It says that the OG North Commander should be
13 Mr. Musinbegovic, Jusuf.
14 What I want to ask you is the following: It's correct, isn't it,
15 that the El Mujahedin Detachment never joined the organic composition of
16 OG-3 North; is that correct?
17 A. This document was already shown to me when I was giving my
18 statement to representatives of the OTP. That was the first time I saw
19 it, and I am not aware that such an order was made under which the
20 El Mujahedin Detachment should become part of OG-3 North. Definitely, the
21 El Mujahedin Detachment was not a part of OG-3 North. We did carry out
22 some operations in the operations zone of the OG-3 North, but we were
23 never a part of OG-3 North.
24 Q. Mr. Jusuf Musinbegovic never commanded the El Mujahedin
25 Detachment; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, he never commanded the El Mujahedin Detachment. I mentioned
2 in my statement that on one occasion at a meeting, Jusuf Musinbegovic
3 ordered the detachment to take part in one operation, and this is
4 something that Muatez smoothly refused to do.
5 Q. You wrote that in paragraph 66 of your statement, and you said
6 that "Commander Musinbegovic was in charge of the whole operation.
7 However, our detachment did not take part in that operation because Muatez
8 refused that because the El Mujahedin Detachment was not ready for that."
9 Is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that is correct.
11 Q. The detachment not only did not accept the order on the
12 resubordination to OG-3 North, as was ordered, but according to that
13 order, the commander did not even enter into combat actions?
14 A. Yes, that is correct.
15 Q. However, what is correct is that the detachment, three weeks or a
16 month later, carried out this action independently, without any order?
17 A. Yes, that is correct.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please show
19 1831 to the witness. But before that, I would like to tender this
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
22 please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 846.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Do we have P1831 on the screen?
1 For the transcript, while waiting for the English translation, I
2 wanted to say that this is an official note of the security organ of the
330th Brigade, dated
4 some events at Visoka Glava and Pisana Jelika, and you've answered to some
5 of the Prosecutor's questions regarding these two locations.
6 Q. Please read paragraph 2 of the document, which begins with: "On
7 the 7th of October, 1994 ..." Read it to yourself, please.
8 The document mentions a meeting between members of the 330th
9 Brigade and the El Mujahedin Detachment members at the front line, during
10 which contact was established between an operative from the 330th Brigade
11 and OG North, as well as the El Mujahedin Detachment. That operative, as
12 one could see from the document, tried to persuade Emir that he had
13 certain orders from the commander. In the document, it is stated that the
14 Emir of the El Mujahedin Detachment took that man's rifle away and that
15 the interpreter interpreted that Emir gave a certain order to the member
16 of the 330th Brigade to pick up his radio set and call his commander.
17 What I want to ask you concerning this is the following: It seems
18 that the Emir of the detachment, in the field, orders members of the 330th
19 Brigade around, rather than the other way around?
20 A. Such situations occurred frequently. After the operation, some
21 local units had to assume the positions previously taken over by the El
22 Mujahedin Detachment. However, they would usually be late, and I believe
23 that was the reason for this incident as well. This clearly shows that
24 the detachment was not resubordinated to the 330th Brigade.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Your Honours, could we please assign an exhibit number to this
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
4 please be given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 847.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. In paragraph 67 of your statement, you said that, and I quote:
8 "Orders came from the 3rd Corps, but as for the El Mujahedin
9 Detachment, Commander Muatez had the final authority to make decisions
10 about whether or not to take part in an operation."
11 I just would like to clarify something.
12 This authority was not given to Muatez by the Command of the 3rd
13 Corps, was it?
14 A. That is correct. I think we addressed that already. His
15 authority derived from the Command of the El Mujahedin Detachment, from
16 the Emir and the Shura.
17 Q. Therefore, the authority was given to him by the Emir and Shura,
18 and he followed that through; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show P1731 to the
21 witness now.
22 For the transcript, this is a document from the 3rd Corps Command.
23 The date is
24 the El Mujahedin unit that is being ordered.
25 Q. Do you agree with me that this is the third order within the
2 ordering that the El Mujahedin Detachment be resubordinated?
3 Could you please go to page 2 in the English. Scroll up so that
4 we can see the text.
This time, on
6 El Mujahedin Detachment is being ordered to the Command of the 7th Muslim
7 Brigade for the forthcoming combat operations. I wanted to ask you this
8 concerning this document and in general: During the time when you were
9 there, that is, as of the moment you joined the detachment until the end
10 of the war, did the 7th Muslim Brigade Command act as the El Mujahedin
11 Detachment Command at any point?
12 A. The detachment was never resubordinated to the Command of the 7th
13 Muslim Brigade, and the Command of the 7th Brigade had held no sway, no
14 authority, over the detachment.
15 Q. You saw these three documents and a number of others, and I'd like
16 to put my case to you.
17 The documents which came from the 3rd Corps and the orders by
18 which the 3rd Corps attempted to include the El Mujahedin Detachment
19 within the corps structure were basically just pieces of paper. The
20 detachment never accepted such orders or any resubordination?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. You've told us already that the Command of the detachment decided
23 whether they would participate in a certain operation based on their own
24 criteria applied to the preparation of that action or operation?
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. In other words, the 3rd Corps could not count with the El
2 Mujahedin Detachment when they would need it, when they thought the
3 detachment should participate in a given operation?
4 A. Precisely so.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document
6 please be admitted into evidence.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
8 please be given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 848.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. It is correct, is it not, that the detachment accepted to
13 participate in certain operations by putting certain conditions first; is
14 that correct?
15 A. That is correct. Those conditions mainly had to do with the
16 technical preconditions to carry out the operation.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: What are "technical preconditions"?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That means that the El Mujahedin
19 Detachment always carried out operations within the areas of
20 responsibility of other army units. All those defence lines of the army
21 were mined, and mines and minefields should be cleared first so that
22 members of the detachment could safely enter the area between the two
23 front lines. It also entailed making new paths and roads to be used to
24 pull out casualties and to transport supplies and support.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. In paragraph 208, you described or stated that Muatez insisted,
2 concerning the Al Kamara operation, or Al Kamari -- I'm sorry if I'm
3 pronouncing it wrong. In any case, he asked that all the other units
4 should not act independently but under the Command of the detachment.
5 This was not a technical issue but an issue of the Command; is that
7 A. Yes. While answering the previous question, I thought we were
8 still discussing our operations in the Teslic theatre, which was within
9 the OG North area of operation. We haven't reached Vozuca by that point.
10 Q. A part of my transcript -- a part of my question was not recorded,
11 and I will repeat it.
12 I reminded you of paragraph 208 of your statement, whereby you
13 said that Muatez, concerning the Al Kamari operation, insisted that the
14 other units involved should not act independently and that they should be
15 under the command of the detachment. Then I said that it was not a
16 technical issue, but rather it had to do with command?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. On occasion, the detachment would cancel its participation in
19 certain operations that had been planned?
20 A. That is correct.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show Exhibit 396 to
22 the witness.
23 Q. I believe you have never seen this document. It is a document
24 from the 3rd Corps Command, dated
25 with the engagement of the El Mujahedin Detachment within the area of
responsibility of the 35th Brigade.
2 ordered that the El Mujahedin Detachment be resubordinated to the Command
3 of the 35th Division and engage it in accordance with the plan of the
4 Commander of the 35th Division.
5 I would like to ask you this -- Your Honours, could we please move
6 into closed session.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
8 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We have here a summary of the
15 contents of certain letters that were sent
16 mention made of Imad as being the person who drafted the letter.
17 Please read to yourself the first paragraph and then let me know
18 when you are done.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. "Imad" is actually Imad Al Misri [phoen] for whom in your
22 statement you said was in charge of the detachment communications; is that
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. He is sending a report expressing his position by stating that the
1 detachment is formally within the structure of the army, but he says:
2 "They cannot order us into action without our own will." He also states
3 that the detachment puts forth plans for actions, since the army has no
4 experience in that.
5 You will agree with me that this document reflects accurately what
6 you have testified about yesterday and today; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. Therefore, you agree with me that the detachment worked like this,
9 in practical terms, at least from the moment that you joined to the end of
10 the war; it worked like this, didn't it: In formal terms, it was under
11 the army command, but in practical terms it made its own plans and the
12 army was in no position to order anything; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can put this one away. Thank
15 you. I'm moving on to another set of questions.
16 Q. In the statement you made to the OTP, you say that you were
17 involved in combat activities in September 1995. Perhaps you can still
18 recall the second day of this particular action, the 11th of September,
19 1995. So can you?
20 A. Yes, I can.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness be
22 shown map number 17 from the map book.
23 Before we look at the map, may I just ask you this:
24 Q. Can you remember the exact disposition of the El Mujahedin
25 Detachment at about ? Where were the groups belonging to the El
Mujahedin Detachment on
2 A. I'm able to recall their positions. I was there, myself, and I
3 know and remember clearly where the groups were.
4 Q. Would you share that with us, please. Tell us, first of all, and
5 then we'll try to pinpoint the exact positions on the map.
6 A. At on the second day of this operation, the 11th of
7 September, the El Mujahedin Detachment was preparing to continue
8 operations in the Kvrge area. Therefore, the detachment was supposed to
9 crush enemy lines in the Kvrge area and continue to advance down the
10 territory and in a northerly direction towards Ozren.
11 Q. Do you remember what the previous location was? What about
12 Djurica Vis, was that the previous location before Kvrge, or on the 11th
13 of September, 1995, had you already reached Kvrge by or by around
15 Could we please zoom in slightly --
16 A. Indeed.
17 Q. -- for us to see the Kvrge area?
18 A. The upper half of the map. It's fine like this. A little further
19 up, please.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think this is all right. Can we
21 keep it like this, please.
22 Q. Witness, can you please circle "Kvrge" by using the electronic
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. You were at Kvrge at around . Can you tell us what happened
2 A. The detachment units, at , carried out an attack against the
3 Serb-held positions around Kvrge. They continued to push forward until
4 that evening. They had taken the area around Vukadino Brdo and Nemici
5 [phoen] village, and Vukadinov Brdo itself.
6 Q. Can you mark that on the map, please?
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. The Prosecutor asked you questions about the POWs who were taken
9 in Kesten village on that day. Can you please mark that village for us,
10 if you can see it on the map.
11 A. Perhaps if we pull the map down a little.
12 Q. I don't think we can do that, but I think you should be able to
13 see the village. There. Thank you?
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. You said that at groups belonging to the El Mujahedin
16 Detachment were in this combat area. Was a single group belonging to the
17 El Mujahedin Detachment, from onwards, still in the Kesten village
18 area, based on your personal knowledge?
19 A. What I'm about to say applies to that entire day and later on.
20 Not a single group belonging to the El Mujahedin Detachment was in the
21 Kesten village area.
22 Q. In paragraph 263 of your statement, you say that it's not true
23 that members of the El Mujahedin Detachment took POWs away from any other
24 units, and then you go on to state that you remember that no unit of the
25 328th Brigade -- or that one unit of the 328th Brigade reported that some
1 members of the El Mujahedin Detachment had arrived and taken charge of
2 POWs. You go on to state that you believe that they had simply fabricated
3 this story in order to receive money in return for these prisoners.
4 And now, finally, I'm coming to the crux of my question. Witness,
5 are you certain that the El Mujahedin Detachment did not seize, take away,
6 capture, whatever you like, those prisoners on that day, those 61
8 A. I am entirely certain.
9 Q. This is quite a large number of prisoners we're looking at. You
10 would have been in a position to find out about this. Would you know?
11 A. I certainly would have found out. It entirely impossible that
12 anything like this should have happened unbeknownst to me.
13 Q. We discussed a great many groups, groups of Arabs, fighting in
15 nothing to do with the El Mujahedin Detachment, did you not? Right. And
16 now my question: It is true, isn't it, that the El Mujahedin Detachment
17 was not the only Arab group; that on
18 in the Vozuca area?
19 A. That's true, we were not the only group there.
20 Q. I asked you about Abu Zubeir's group, about Hamdala, and you said
21 you were aware of the existence of those groups. Do you know that on that
22 day, those groups were involved in this same combat area?
23 A. Yes, I do know that on the previous day, the 10th of September,
24 they were there, because I personally met some members of Abu Zubeir's
1 Q. Personally met. What exactly do you mean by that? You saw them
2 or perhaps you met them in order to arrange something. Can you clarify
3 that, please?
4 A. I saw them. We did not arrange anything with them. They were not
5 working with the El Mujahedin Detachment in that particular operation. As
6 I said in my statement, I do not know that they worked with any other
7 military unit, either, but I did realise that they were present in the
9 Q. Do you know that a large number of humanitarian workers were
10 involved in the fighting with Abu Zubeir?
11 A. I had heard of this, of the fact that some humanitarian workers
12 were working with Abu Zubeir, but I didn't know those people.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the map be given an exhibit
14 number, please, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted into evidence. May it please
16 be given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 849.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
20 Exhibit 343 now. Thank you. Exhibit 343.
21 All right. We see that now.
22 I'm not sure how we can follow the translation of this document.
23 Perhaps it will be a more practical idea to put this on the ELMO and show
24 the English on our screens. No. Oh, well.
25 All right. Be that as it may, at this point in time, what I care
1 about is this map.
2 Q. Witness, this is a map produced by one of the persons involved in
3 this battle. This person drew a map showing the Mujahedin attack on Ozren
4 and Vozuca in 1995. Based on this diagram -- and you see the key to the
5 diagram. You see that the thick black line shows the movement of Abu
6 Zubeir's groups, whereas the somewhat paler, brighter line, at least
7 according to this person, shows the advance of the El Mujahedin Detachment
8 in the actual battle.
9 Much along the same lines, we see that Abu Zubeir's groups had
10 arrived from Kalesija across Orahovo, Vares, and then Breza in Zenica, and
11 then from Gluha Bukovica and the area of Zeljezno Polje. They linked up
12 as soon as they reached the Vozuca front line. That's what the
13 explanation says.
14 Are these the same locations that you referred to as the places
15 where Abu Zubeir's groups were deployed, Gluha Bukovica and the Zeljezno
16 Polje area?
17 A. That's right. I know that Abu Zubeir's headquarters was at
18 Zeljezno Polje. He personally was based there. They had another group at
19 Gluha Bukovica. I said already that I was not aware of the Kalesija
21 Q. Thank you. And now is it true, that is at least what the map
22 appears to indicate, isn't it, that Abu Zubeir's groups were moving nearly
23 in parallel with the El Mujahedin unit throughout these combat operations?
24 Can you comment on that, sir?
25 A. These arrows marking the moves of the El Mujahedin Detachment are
1 not really perfectly accurate. The entire map is a little simplified, but
2 I can say for certain that the detachment was not using these axes, was
3 not moving along these axes displayed here. Well, in part, it was, but
4 not entirely.
5 Q. Right. Do you know that on the 10th and 11th of September, 1995,
6 Abu Zubeir's group was moving to, along these axes, between Vozuca and
7 Ozren along with some humanitarian workers?
8 A. That was where we came across them, at the foot of Paljenik,
9 roughly speaking, and that's what the arrows indicate. Perhaps a little
10 higher up, a little higher up. A little further to the east, perhaps, in
11 a place called "Stog." Those who were involved claimed that they
12 continued from Stog on down this axis. If that's what they claim, then
13 it's probably like that.
14 Q. You're saying "Stog," Witness, but we can't follow that. Can you
15 please, at least roughly, mark on this map where it was that you met Abu
16 Zubeir's group?
17 A. [Marks] Somewhere in this area, roughly speaking.
18 Q. Thank you. Did you also hear that on the 11th of September, Abu
19 Zubeir's group was moving towards Ozren also?
20 A. As far as I know, they remained in the area until the very end of
21 that operation.
22 Q. When you say "in the area," can you try to be more specific, sir?
23 Which area do you have in mind?
24 A. I mean the area in which combat operations continued north of
25 Vozuca, between Prokop and as far as Ozren and further beyond.
1 Q. Thank you very much. Let's try to further clarify this.
2 Abu Zubeir's groups, or indeed humanitarian workers, at the time,
3 were not under the command of the El Mujahedin Detachment, were they?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. They weren't even working together with the El Mujahedin
6 Detachment during these combat operations, were they?
7 A. We didn't even know they were there until we actually bumped into
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
10 Your Honours, may the map please be given -- or, rather:
11 Q. Witness, just please write "Stog" or whatever you say was the name
12 of that particular location.
13 A. [Marks].
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 This map has been exhibited already, but we want this map as a new
16 exhibit marked in the way the witness has just marked it. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted into evidence. May it please
18 be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 850.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can put this away now, please.
22 Could the witness please be shown 669, Exhibit 669.
23 This is entitled: "Information by the Security Service
24 Department." The date is the 16th of September, 1998. Again, this
25 discusses information on the El Mujahedin Detachment.
1 Towards the bottom of this document, if we could please pull the
2 English down a little, what you can see is this: Another intercepted
3 report from the El Mujahedin Detachment, the 16th of September, 1995. I
4 believe I said that, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said so, but the interpreter said "1998."
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. In English, it's the
7 following page. This is about an intercepted report by the detachment's
8 Emir. This is about the Bedr Al Bosna, it's the battle of Vozuca, the
9 liberation of Vozuca.
10 And now I want the witness to look at page 2 of the Bosnian and
11 page 4 of the English. We can show the Bosnian in such a way as to see
12 the bottom half of the page. Oh, that's fine.
13 Q. Please, Witness, focus your attention on the part that says: "New
14 territory has been taken ..."
15 That is the second-to-last paragraph. In the English, it starts
16 with the following words: "We have taken new territories ..." It's just
17 that one portion.
18 Do you agree that it reads:
19 "The Mujahedin have gained ground and entered a group of Serbian
20 villages. After the killing, they took 60 prisoners."
21 Please keep this in mind as we proceed. Do you agree that it says
22 here "the Mujahedin," which is not necessarily the same thing as "the
23 Mujahedin Detachment"; right?
24 A. Yes, that's right.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will need to go back
1 to this. It has not been interpreted properly.
2 Q. What I asked the witness is this, and I will try to say this
3 slowly. I asked the witness this: Do you agree that what the document
4 says is this: The Mujahidi [as interpreted] have gained ground and
5 entered a group of Serbian villages or Serb villages, and do you agree
6 here that -- that what we discussed yesterday, Mujahidi and Mujahedin
7 "odred" is not the same thing, is it?
8 A. Of course it's not the same thing. We concluded that yesterday,
9 didn't we?
10 Q. "Mujahidi" is a general term for a fighter; right?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. In the English version, it reads "the Mujahedin," which is
13 certainly not what the Bosnian says. I was waiting until we had a witness
14 here who could clarify that for our benefit. Therefore, Witness, once
15 again, the word "Mujahidi" and "Mujahedin," in the sense of the Mujahedin
16 Detachment, is not the same, is it?
17 A. No, it's not the same.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Can we please show page
19 2 of the document now. In the English, this is also the next page. Page
20 5 in the English.
21 Q. Witness, can you please focus on this portion of the document
22 which is just above the list of names. It is clear that this report is on
23 its way; you agree, right? And the report is about Mujahidi, the
24 fighters. And then look at the paragraph just above the names. It reads:
25 "The Bosnian Army also took part in this operation under the
1 command of the El Mujahedin Detachment."
2 And then it goes on to say: "Victory, victims," and then a list
3 of victims or casualties. And do you agree -- well, please have a look.
4 A. I can see that.
5 Q. Do you agree with me that in actual fact, the person who wrote
6 this report makes a clear distinction when describing the Mujahidi, the
7 fighters on the one hand, and the El Mujahedin Detachment, on the other
8 hand, which is the very first reference to it in this report?
9 A. Yes, that seems to be the clear inference, based on this letter.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back once more to the
11 previous page, Your Honours, please, in both the English and the Bosnian.
12 Again have a look. This is a general description of the course of
13 the battle. The Mujahidi, the fighters, are advancing. That's what it
15 Q. Would that be your conclusion? This portion is not specifically
16 about the El Mujahedin Detachment, is it?
17 A. That's right. This could be in reference to any other army unit
18 or, indeed, any other fighters who were involved.
19 Q. Thank you. On page 2 of this document, you just read what the
20 author says. The Bosnian Army was involved under the Command of the
21 detachment. It is clear that whoever asked this report --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the question.
23 May counsel please repeat the question.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.
25 Q. Whoever authored this report, when he wrote that the El Mujahedin
1 Detachment -- that in the action the BH Army was involved under the
2 command of the detachment, therefore it is clear that, therefore, the
3 author of the report did not believe that the army was in command of this
4 action; right?
5 A. That is correct. The units that took part in the area of
6 responsibility of the 35th Division, their members were all under the
7 command of the El Mujahedin Detachment in that operation.
8 Q. And not the other way around, then?
9 A. That's right, not the other way around.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For a minute, can we go back to this
11 report, please.
12 Q. Once again, did the El Mujahedin Detachment capture those 61
13 prisoners? Would you accept that this was proof that these were arrested
14 or captured by the El Mujahedin, that the prisoners of war were captured
15 by El Mujahedin?
16 A. Regardless of what it says in this report and what it specifically
17 refers to, the detachment absolutely did not arrest or capture more than
18 six detainees in that operation.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said "15", not "six."
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 15.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. You said "not more." Can you come close to the --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: And when you say "the detachment," do you mean the
24 El Mujahedin Detachment that captured 15?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct. Whenever I say
1 "detachment," I mean the El Mujahedin Detachment. Next time, I will try
2 not to leave out "El Mujahedin."
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Please, Witness, the Prosecutor -- now I'm going to move to
5 something -- something else. I just want to ask you, before that, about
6 this, what you have just said last, please.
7 That day, outside the El Mujahedin Detachment, there were many
8 Arabs who were fighting; is that correct?
9 A. That is correct. I met a group of some 30 of them, and I heard
10 that the whole of Buzuber's [as interpreted] group was present in the
11 field, allegedly over 200 men.
12 Q. Just to clarify for the transcript, you're talking about Abu
13 Zubeir's group? The witness is talking about Abu Zubeir's group.
14 Did you ever have information about those prisoners of war before
15 you -- that this event actually did take place before you spoke with the
17 A. Just like I already said in my statement, I had heard about a
18 report that I believe the 2nd Battalion of the 328th Brigade sent
19 requesting that they be paid compensation, funds for the prisoners. At
20 that time, there was a practice that units were rewarded for captured or
21 killed members of enemy forces and also for the capture of equipment,
22 materiel and the like.
23 Q. Well, let's just clarify that. Did anyone from the Bosnian Army
24 Army, or on behalf of the army, or members of the army, asked around the
25 members of the detachment, of those -- for
those prisoners? Did the
1 detachment capture prisoners?
2 A. At the time, nobody was asking anything about some group of some
3 60 detainees, not in that time period during those days or later.
4 Q. Well, at least not to your knowledge?
5 A. I don't know about it, but I would have to know if something like
6 that happened.
7 Q. What I'm interested is: How did you find out about that report of
8 the 328th Brigade?
9 A. I heard -- I didn't see that statement, but -- that report, but I
10 did see them asking for that compensation. Well, that was a little bit
11 funny or cute, as far as we were concerned, but we didn't really take that
13 Q. You didn't take it seriously because you did not have information
14 that this capture had taken place?
15 A. Well, that capture did not take place.
16 Q. It did not take place on the part of the El Mujahedin Detachment,
17 at least; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that's correct. Especially what did not happen was that
19 these prisoners were seized from some other unit.
20 Q. All right. Thank you. The Prosecutor showed you a document, MFI
21 832, that had to do with the issuance of permission to go abroad, and in
22 relation to that I would like to ask you: It's correct, isn't it, that
23 the detachment, El Mujahedin itself, had arranged and paid for that; that
24 is correct?
25 A. Yes, that's right. That was completely arranged by the El
1 Mujahedin Detachment.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we can move into
5 closed session once again, and I apologise again. Perhaps this sentence
6 can be redacted from the transcript, because it can also be used to
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May lines 15 and 16 of page 57 be redacted, please,
9 and may the Chamber please move into private session.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 5723-5725 redacted. Private session
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 MR. MUNDIS:
4 Q. PW-9, can you just briefly clarify for us the relationship between
5 the Emir of the El Mujahedin Detachment and its military commander, in
6 terms of their responsibilities and duties and functions?
7 A. The Commander of the El Mujahedin Detachment, Abu Maali, was
8 responsible for the whole detachment and for everything that happened in
9 the detachment. This implies both his Assistant for military affairs and
10 his other assistants, such as assistants for the Press Centre of the
11 detachment, for religious instruction of the detachment, for the motorised
12 unit, the servicing, everything that was a part of the El Mujahedin
13 Detachment. The deputy -- or assistant commander for military affairs was
14 responsible for the units in the front, for preparation of operations, for
15 military training, for procurement of equipment and materiel that had to
16 do with the army, and so on.
17 Q. And, sir, when you refer to the assistant commander for military
18 affairs, to whom are you referring?
19 A. I am thinking of Muatez Al Masri, who stayed at that function
20 until he was killed on the 22nd of September, 1995.
21 Q. PW-9, in your written statement, there are a number of paragraphs
22 that talk about various meetings that you attended with Muatez and with
23 other senior commanders of ABiH units. Do you remember those meetings
24 that you've discussed in your statement?
25 A. Yes, I remember, and I remember the meetings.
1 Q. Can you recall, sir, approximately how many such meetings you
2 personally attended that were attended also by Muatez and senior ABiH
4 A. There were between seven to ten meetings, for sure.
5 Q. And, sir, what was the time period of these seven to ten meetings?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic. I think it will be
17 prudent to redact line 25 of page 63, maybe that whole answer.
18 May we then move into private session also.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 5729-5735 redacted. Private session
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 Yes, Mr. Mundis.
15 MR. MUNDIS:
16 Q. PW-9, I now want to turn now to a different topic.
17 I believe earlier this morning, in response to a question by my
18 colleague Madam Vidovic, you told us that there were no more than 15
19 prisoners of war taken by the detachment during the course of the war.
20 Did I understand you correctly?
21 A. No, you didn't. The 15 prisoners were just in the last operation
22 performed by the El Mujahedin Detachment on the 10th of September, 1995.
23 Q. Okay. Well, when you say -- okay, you've clarified that.
24 Let me ask you this, sir, because in paragraph 256 of your
25 statement, you make reference to around 25 POWs had been taken, and I'm
wondering if you recall that and if you can tell us which operation you
2 were referring to in that paragraph.
3 A. I remember that. That was the overall number of prisoners that we
4 took in the Vozuca theatre of war.
5 In the first operation, there were no prisoners. In the second
6 and third, a total of about 25 prisoners were taken.
7 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, sir. I think I just have one last topic
8 that I would like to cover with you, and my learned colleague was
9 discussing this with you immediately before the last break. (redacted)
11 Q. And you told us, sir, as reflected on lines 15 to 23 of page 58 --
12 I think we do need to go into private session, Your Honours. I think this
13 was covered in private session, so I would ask that, please.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
15 [Private session]
11 Page 5738 redacted. Private session
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed, Judge.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So, Witness, I wanted to ask you
22 to tell us something about Dzemat. You've talked to us about this.
23 First of all, I would like you to tell me, if I understood you
24 correctly, that the Dzemat was linked to the El Mujahed Detachment and
25 that the Mujahedin from other groups were not part of that group, other
1 Arabs; is that correct?
2 A. If your question is about other Arabs who were involved in the
4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. Thank you
5 very much.
6 So regarding all the members of the El Mujahedin Detachment, were
7 they all part of the Dzemat?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] One more thing.
10 Did you know, personally, each member of the El Mujahedin
12 A. No, not each of them.
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And one more question
14 regarding passports and the problems.
15 When it came to issuing passports, when El Mujahedin had to go to
16 a foreign country for medical treatment, do you know, how were they able
17 to come into Bosnia and Herzegovina without having obtained previously a
18 permit to leave the country? Was there a procedure, for instance, for
19 these people to be able to come back after obtaining -- after having had
20 their medical treatment? What was the procedure in place for them to come
22 A. There was no procedure. Those people were citizens of Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina. They spent some time abroad and then they returned. I'm not
24 quite certain -- or perhaps you may have misunderstood what I was saying
25 earlier on. I'm not really sure what your question is about, exactly.
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So then let me clarify before I
2 put the next question to you.
Is it only that citizens of
4 of the army went to a foreign country for medical treatment or would other
5 members also go to a foreign country for medical treatment, combatants who
6 were foreigners within the detachment?
7 A. I don't know about members of any of the other army units. As for
8 the El Mujahedin Detachment, both the ethnic Bosnians and the foreigners
9 who were part of the detachment went abroad for treatment. Once they had
10 been treated, they, as a rule, returned to the detachment.
11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Very well. So foreigners, how
12 were they able to come back to Bosnia if they would leave Bosnia without a
13 prior authorisation or permit? Was there a procedure in place for these
14 people to come back or was there a procedure through which they had to go
15 before they leave Bosnia?
16 A. As far as I know, there was no procedure to leave or to return.
17 They required no special approval to return because, in the first place,
18 they required no special approval to leave. As foreigners, they were no
19 military conscripts in Bosnia itself. And you have to keep in mind the
20 fact that
21 track of all of these things.
22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So
23 during the war and they were open to all foreigners?
24 A. As far as I know, they were open after the signing of the
25 Washington Agreement, open to all foreigners. I do not know of any
1 restrictions that were placed.
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And how about before the
3 Washington Agreement; were there any restrictions?
4 A. Prior to the Washington Agreement, for the most part, the BH Army
5 forces, or should I say the forces loyal to the Sarajevo government, were
in control of the borders of
7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Another thing. You talked to us
8 about a separate department that would have functioned -- and of course I
9 will ask you to clarify this, if I understood you correctly, so therefore
10 within the detachment there was a department to greet the newly arrivals,
11 the Arabs who would come, and you called it "The Command of the Arabs,"
12 the Arabs' Command. Would you be able to clarify this for us, please?
13 What exactly were you referring to when you mentioned this department or
15 A. That's right. Within the detachment itself, there was a special
16 section for admission of foreigners. At first, Abu Muaz Kuwaiti headed
17 that section. They also called him the Emir of the Arabs. Whenever a
18 fresh foreigner turned up in the detachment, this section would interview
19 the person, they would take his personal documents, they would run certain
20 checks and pass him along to be trained for service in the El Mujahedin
21 Detachment, whenever that was needed, and so on and so forth.
22 So between this section and the Personnel Section of the Corps,
23 there was absolutely no link, no exchange of information or documents.
24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Now, I would like you to tell us
25 something else about the special section for admission of foreigners. You
1 talked to us about the structure, but this special section, is that the
2 section that Madam Vidovic was referring to when she was talking to -- of
3 a sort of a security organ of the detachment?
4 A. No, that's not the same organ. The security organ was a different
5 organ within the El Mujahedin Detachment.
6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So unfortunately I need to put
7 one more question to you.
8 Since we've heard in this trial that the detachment did not have
9 its own security organ, this type of security organ, what is it exactly?
10 Could you please clarify this for us?
11 A. I said that this was the Security Service. The Security Service
12 was responsible for the security of the Vatrostalna barracks, as well as
13 the discipline of Bosniaks in the El Mujahedin Detachment. The service
14 was headed by Ezher Beganovic.
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And this Security Service was to
16 contact war prisoners; was that part of their function?
17 A. The responsibility for the prisoners of war lay with Muatez, as
18 assistant commander for military affairs, and whoever he personally
19 entrusted to carry -- as to who he personally entrusted to carry out
20 interviews with the prisoners of war is something that I don't know.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
23 PW-9, I also have some questions for you in relation to your
24 testimonies over these past days.
25 If we just stick to the issue which was raised most recently by
1 Judge Lattanzi about the registration of incoming new foreigners to your
2 detachment, my question is: Do you know how these individuals came to
4 A. From what I understood and learned in conversations with some who
5 did come, their arrival was privately arranged without any particular
6 organisation involved.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Are you talking about a local Bosnian organisation
8 or organisations in their homelands?
9 A. I don't think there was any organisation by the El Mujahedin
10 Detachment, and I'm not aware that any other organisation got them
11 together and sent them to Bosnia in an organised fashion or anything like
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see. But it couldn't be a coincidence that
14 suddenly a whole number of fighters from Arab countries and other
15 countries would suddenly turn up in Bosnia to assist their Muslim brothers
16 in the war. I mean, there must have been some sort of organisation, some
17 sort of coordination of all of this. Do you know, from your friends in
18 the El Mujahedin Detachment, whether they were invited by the leadership
19 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or were they offered by other
20 organisations in the
21 A. You must know that not all Arabs came to Bosnia together. They
22 would come from the beginning of the war, from 1992, continuously until
23 the end of 1995. For the most part, they would come individually or in
24 small groups of two, three, or five persons. I'm aware that the Arabs
25 were encouraged to come and help in Bosnia, just like this was in the
1 Milano Institute, whose director and found was Sheik Enver El Saban, but
2 I'm not aware that anybody sent persons to Bosnia in an organised fashion.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: The reason I'm asking, of course, is that for any
4 state, including the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there are
5 national interests associated with foreigners coming into the territory,
6 and so my question to you is if you know that these people who came to
7 assist in the war effort came with the understanding or upon the
invitation of the
9 A. Today, we talked about the farewell ceremony of the El Mujahedin
10 Detachment, and I recollect that at that ceremony, Abu Maali briefly said
11 why the Mujahids came to
12 said they came having seen, thinking of the media, images of the suffering
13 of the Muslim people in
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Just to conclude this point, I want to be sure
15 that I have understood you correctly, in that to your knowledge, there was
16 no official involvement of the Government
18 of fighters from abroad; is that correct?
19 A. I'm quite sure that they were absolutely not included in this or
20 involved in this.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
22 Now, I have a series of questions relating to the issue of the -
23 what shall I call it - the cooperation or coordination between the El
24 Mujahedin Detachment and the Army of
25 this series of questions by referring to the, what should I say, the
1 unfortunate speech which we heard on the television clip -- on the video
2 clip, sorry, where General Delic, if indeed it was him, and I leave that
3 open, but the suggestion that was made was that the El Mujahedin
4 Detachment was -- and I think the words came "was always a part of the
6 Now, regardless of whether this speech was authentic or not, I
7 would like you to give me your opinion of exactly that issue. Was the El
8 Mujahedin Detachment a part of the ABiH?
9 A. We saw here the order instructing the formation of the El
10 Mujahedin Detachment on
11 mean that the detachment was an integral part of the army. However, the El
12 Mujahedin Detachment never functioned like other units that were part of
13 the Army of
14 I've already spoken a number of times about the relationship of
15 the detachment command towards let's call them "superior command,"
16 regardless of whether or we're talking about division, operative group, or
17 corps commands. There are also some other indications that could point to
18 this. For example, members of the El Mujahedin Detachment never wore
19 insignia of the Army of
20 Detachment never had any flags flying of the Army of Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina in any of its barracks. Ranking officers, whom we also
22 mentioned during my testimony, never actually wore their rank insignia,
23 which was contrary to army regulations.
24 So it can be said that the detachment was de facto another army or
25 a different army.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, that is the very core of this trial.
2 Now, just to revert you to your observation that the El Mujahedin
3 Detachment never bore insignia and never flew any of the flags and so on,
4 I have noticed that as well, but I also saw on one of the documents, I
5 think on the first day of your testimony, that a stamp was applied by the
6 El Mujahid Detachment, and I think you referred yourself to the El Mujahid
7 Detachment being a unit, and a four-digit number, I can't remember the
8 digits, but that seemed to me to be a formal indication of the El Mujahid
9 Detachment being a part of the ABiH.
10 A. Yes, that is so. Formally, the detachment was an integral part of
11 the army. We've already said that in relation to the order on the
12 formation of the El Mujahedin Detachment. The stamp had to be used for
13 documents that, in particular, had to do with the Bosnian members of the
14 El Mujahedin Detachment and the resolution of their status as members of
15 the army. None of us or of the detachment command wanted the Bosnian
16 members of the detachment, as military conscript did not want them to be
17 left off the register of Bosnian Army members.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: In your statement, paragraph 32, and I would ask
19 the Registrar to assist us in bringing up paragraph 32 of the statement,
20 if possible --
21 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: I don't think it is necessary with private
23 session. No, it's not, so you can just go ahead. It's not necessary.
24 My question relates to the same aspect of the relations between
25 the two armed forces here.
1 You say, in paragraph 32, that the El Mujahedin Detachment was a
2 part of the ABiH and it was subordinated to the 3rd Corps. You can read
3 for yourself when you find it.
4 A. Yes, I said that, and it says in my statement that this was
5 formally that way. Formally, in our language, you could interpret as
6 meaning de jure, but in essence it operated quite differently from the way
7 that a unit should operate in relation to its superior command.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, PW-9, thank you very much, but we are
9 looking to find out what were, then, these differences, and what was the
10 importance or the implications of these differences when it comes to the
11 responsibility for crimes possibly committed during the armed operations?
12 A. I can say with certainty that there were no crimes and that this
13 is superfluous, but it's up to the Court to establish what the essence of
14 these events was.
15 I apologise. Let me just say that there were no crimes on the
16 part of the members of the El Mujahedin Detachment.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, that question is for this Trial Chamber to
18 determine. But let us just for the example, I'm not saying that there
19 were crimes committed or that there were not crimes committed, leave this
20 question aside, but answer me to my question of: Who would be responsible
21 if, hypothetically, a war crime was committed by someone who was a member
22 of the El Mujahid Detachment?
23 This is, of course, a question which has a very legal bearing, and
24 so if you cannot answer it, then please do not try to answer it. It's
25 only if you know, through your position in the El Mujahid Detachment, that
1 perhaps you had discussed these things in advance and that you had an
2 answer ready to the question. But if you don't know, then please do not
3 try to answer my question.
4 A. First of all, the perpetrator, himself, would be responsible, then
5 his immediate superior in the El Mujahedin Detachment, then Muatez as the
6 military commander, and then --
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name --
8 A. As the Commander of the El Mujahedin Detachment.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, the interpreter didn't hear the last part of
10 your sentence. "Then Muatez as the military commander," and then?
11 A. And ultimately Abu Maali as the Commander of the El Mujahedin
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: And how would the El Mujahid Detachment deal with
14 these responsibilities? Would the Shura decide or would you -- I mean,
15 how? What would the procedure be for dealing with the commission of war
17 A. For such a serious matter, probably the Shura would deal with it,
18 would discuss it. As to what would happen, that is something that I
19 cannot say.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Suppose the hypothetical crime of which we are now
21 talking turned out to be committed by a Bosniak, that is to say, someone
22 who was also a citizen of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, would
23 that person be tried before a Bosnian court or a military court in Bosnia?
24 A. As a member of the detachment, first the Shura would decide his
25 fate, what they would do, would they hand him over further for trial, or
1 whether they would, themselves, deal with the matter.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: PW-9, I realise that this is highly speculative,
3 so unless you are certain about your answers, then don't make those
4 answers. I would rather you would say then that you don't know if you
5 don't know. But you raised the issue of handing over a Bosniak for trial
6 before a Bosnian court, being military or civil court, and we have
7 assumed, just for the example, that the perpetrator was a Bosniak and not
8 a foreigner, just to make the example easier. And I understood you to say
9 that the Shura would then decide whether they would prosecute him on their
10 own or hand him over for trial before a civil or a military Bosnian court.
11 My question to you is: Would this, in fact, be an option, I mean
12 the handing him over to prosecution before Bosnian institutions?
13 A. At the time, I believe that the chances for that would be slight.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: I don't think we should pursue this matter any
15 further, but I thank you for your answers to this line of questions.
16 Let me then move on to a third line of questions that I had in
17 relation to your testimony, and that concerns the prisoners of war.
18 If I heard you correctly, you said that altogether, during your
19 time in service for the El Mujahedin Detachment, some 25 prisoners of war
20 were seized, and 15 of them were seized at the last operation, the Vozuca
21 operation. My question to you, in relation to these prisoners of war that
22 were taken by the El Mujahedin Detachment, is: What did you do with them?
23 A. These prisoners were handed over to the Military Police of the 3rd
24 Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did the El Mujahid Detachment have a detention
1 facility where they would be able to keep prisoners for shorter or longer
3 A. I'm aware that the prisoners were kept or held briefly in the camp
4 of the El Mujahedin Detachment 13 kilometres away. That's where they were
5 interviewed. I don't know who did the interviewing, but I know some
6 information that was received from the interviews with those prisoners.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: PW-9, I realise that the time has gone, so I will
8 defer to the President for his decision as to what we do now. I must say
9 I do have more questions to put to you, so -- but I'll defer to the
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge.
12 We would like you to spend your weekend at home, and for that
13 reason I would like to ask if it is possible, given the fact that the
14 court is available after lunch, can we sit this afternoon to finish this
16 Everybody's nodding. I would like to see in the dark window there
17 if everybody is also nodding there.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It seems as if Judge Lattanzi would not be able to,
20 but we can sit 15 bis if it's agreeable by the rest of the people. Okay.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm advised that the interpreters might perhaps
23 need to check before they can answer, and I see one head is nodding from
24 the interpreters. And the suggestion is that maybe we could start at
25 3.00, 3.00 to 4.30. Maybe in one session, we should be able to do it, and
1 that will give the interpreters an opportunity to check, and maybe they
2 can advise the Registrar if they're available and we can sit at 3.00. Is
3 that okay?
4 THE INTERPRETER: We need to check, Your Honours, because in that
5 case we might need to have a new team of interpreters.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: And then once you have checked, you can then advise
7 the Registrar, who will tell us?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 Based on that hope, we'll break, take a break, and come back at
12 Thank you. Court adjourned.
13 --- Recess taken at 1.50 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 2.25 p.m.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 Thank you to the interpreters for accommodating us.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
19 PW-9, we were in the series of questions relating to the prisoners
20 of war, and you told us that at the Kamenica 13-kilometre camp, there was
21 limited detention facilities to keep prisoners there for a short period of
22 time, and you also told us that some of the prisoners were actually held
23 there for some time and that they were questioned by some of the officers
24 of the El Mujahid Detachment.
25 PW-9, did you ever visit the Kamenica camp, and did you see the
1 detention facilities for yourself?
2 A. I went there many times.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: And did you see the detention?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Were there any prisoners kept in the detention
6 when you went to see it?
7 A. I was there once when there was some prisoners there as well. They
8 had just been taken for a bath.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you recall when that was and how many prisoners
10 there were?
11 A. That was after the second operation that the detachment performed.
12 Late July. There were about ten prisoners there, give or take a prisoner
13 or two.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Were you able to determine their state of health,
15 just superficially, I mean? I know that you're not a doctor, but did they
16 look to you to be in good health?
17 A. They looked all right. They were all able to walk unassisted to
18 the place where they were given a bath. There was no one who was being
19 carried on a stretcher or anything like that.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: You told us that they were interviewed by officers
21 of the -- or members of the El Mujahid Detachment. Do you know if the
22 information gathered by the El Mujahid Detachment was shared with the 3rd
24 A. I don't know if this was shared with the 3rd Corps Command.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know if the ICRC, the International
1 Committee of the Red Cross, was given access to the area?
2 A. No, they had no access. I wasn't aware of any requests that the
3 Red Cross had made to come and visit.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: And these prisoners, you told us they were then
5 handed over to the Zenica Prison. Do you know how that was arranged and
6 after how long the time of detention?
7 A. At the time, I saw documents listing the names of the prisoners
8 and the signatures of the military police members who took over, as well
9 as the signatures of those who had handed over the soldiers. However, the
10 hand-over procedure itself was not something that I witnessed, and I'm not
11 familiar with any details of the hand-over.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know if the 3rd Corps ever made any
13 requests to the El Mujahid Detachment to get access to the prisoners?
14 A. I don't know.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. Let's move on to my next series of
16 questions, which relate to your knowledge of the other foreign group of
17 fighters -- groups of fighters in the territory of the Republic of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And after that, Witness, I only have a few questions
19 relating to the Geneva Conventions, but let's first look at your knowledge
20 of the other groups of foreign fighters.
21 You have left us with the impression that you had absolutely no
22 contact with them, you did not coordinate any combat actions with them,
23 you didn't know how many there were, but since you have introduced to us
24 the concept of the Dzemat, my question would be if, at the level of the
25 Dzemat, there would be some sort of contact or exchange of information or
1 coordination between the El Mujahid Detachment and the other groups of
foreign fighters in
3 A. I was not aware of any contacts like that.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you happen to know how these other groups
5 were - how should I say - were arranging their presence in the Republic of
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina with the government authorities or with the Army of
7 the ABiH?
8 A. I don't know how they came to Bosnia. I don't think they were
9 really interested in resolving any of their own issues with the
10 authorities, the government bodies of the Republic of Bosnia and
11 Herzegovina, at all.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you have a chance to elicit from them
13 information about how they had arranged their presence in Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina? The information that I'm looking for, if you have it, is
15 whether you knew or heard that they had arranged their presence on more or
16 less the same terms as the El Mujahid Detachment had arranged its
17 existence in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Were they -- in other words, were they
18 there on the same terms as the El Mujahid Detachment? Do you know? If
19 you don't, then just tell us that you don't.
20 A. I don't know.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well.
22 My last series of questions goes to the compliance with the
23 rules -- with the international rules of the laws of the war, and I'm
24 curious to know if the members of the El Mujahid Detachment were informed
25 about the Geneva Conventions and, if so, if they were required to comply
1 with the norms of the Geneva Conventions during their combat operations.
2 A. Members of the detachment were not informed about the Geneva
3 Conventions. They had orders from their superior, Muatez, to the effect
4 that no one was to touch the prisoners. The prisoners were, under no
5 conditions, to be touched or killed.
6 In the actual unit where the prisoners were being held, there were
7 guards around the clock and no one was allowed access to the prisoners.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: If the Geneva Conventions were not being suggested
9 to the members of the El Mujahid Detachment during combat operations as
10 norms governing the hostilities, then what other norms would apply to the
11 El Mujahid members when in combat?
12 What I'm asking about is, of course, the Geneva Conventions do not
13 only relate to prisoners of war, they also have a number of rules
14 governing combat, and my question is: If the rules in the
15 Conventions did not apply because they were not imposed on the members,
16 then what other rules applied, or were there any rules?
17 A. I must say I'm not privy with the detail of the Geneva Conventions
18 and the rules that stem from the Conventions. As for the rules that the
19 members of the El Mujahedin Detachment complied with, those were rules
20 that they were taught during their training at the El Mujahedin Detachment
21 Training Centre, as well as instructions they received from their
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: And can you give us an outline of what those other
24 rules were; for instance, relating to killing of enemies during combat?
25 A. As I pointed out in my statement, the El Mujahedin Detachment had
1 such rules that the most important thing was the objective of an operation
2 itself, taking certain features or taking them back from the enemy. The
3 objective of an operation was neither to kill nor to capture an enemy
4 soldier. What happened during operations, of course, was the fact of the
5 battle. Many enemy soldiers were killed. There were no special rules
6 governing that sort of thing.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: You also told us about the decapitation or
8 beheading of enemy soldiers. I think you told us that that would have
9 happened after they had been killed. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's true.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: What was the purpose of this? Why would you
12 decapitate a killed enemy soldier and display his head among the civilian
14 A. The purpose in those situations was certainly not to display these
15 heads to the civilians there. They happened to see them simply because
16 they lived in the same villages where members of the El Mujahedin
17 Detachment were staying too. The purpose of the act of beheading itself
18 was to additionally intimidate the enemy.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: But, sir, you told us that at least in two
20 instances, dead enemy soldiers were decapitated on the battlefield and
21 their heads were brought to the
22 civilian population there.
23 A. I don't know how I phrased that. I didn't mean to say that they
24 were displayed to the civilian population. Those people who were living
25 there just saw the heads. They were civilians living there. There were
1 also members of the El Mujahedin Detachment staying in homes in those
2 villages. It's not that these heads were deliberately displayed to the
3 civilians living there.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge.
6 If I may just ask a few questions.
7 Are you able to tell what the total number of soldiers there were
8 in the El Mujahedin Detachment?
9 A. From the day I joined, the number was on a steady increase.
10 Towards the end of the war, the El Mujahedin Detachment numbered about
11 1.000 members.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know about what number they numbered when
13 you arrived?
14 A. At the time, there were about 70 members, between 70 and 80
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Today, in your testimony, you mentioned - or it may
17 be yesterday, I'm not quite sure - that there were various groups of
18 Afro-Asian origin who were fighting in this war. My question is: On
19 whose side were they fighting? Do you know or don't you know?
20 A. They were fighting on the same side as the El Mujahedin
21 Detachment, the side of the BH Army.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, you just correct me. Did you say to me,
23 sometime during today, that you did not know all the members of the El
24 Mujahedin Detachment, personally?
That's true, I did say that.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it possible that you could make a mistake, in
2 terms of your knowledge of the membership of the El Mujahedin Detachment?
3 And I'm suggesting that you could either mistake some of the people who
4 belong to other groups to be members or vice versa?
5 A. Such a thing perhaps could have happened in a town or village out
6 in the street, but certainly not at a time when a combat operation was
8 If I may just clarify, the reason was we wore special bands to
9 distinguish us during the actual combat operations.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: How did the armbands look like?
11 A. Those were armbands or ribbons in two or three different colours,
12 depending on the operation. There was always a combination of colours
13 that was used to distinguish members of the detachment from members of all
14 the other units, especially to distinguish us from the enemy.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want to make sure I don't repeat questions
16 that have already been asked by other Judges.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thanks for that clarification.
24 What I do want to find out from you is that: You said, I think on
25 more than one occasion, that you did not know --
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. I'm advised that we need to go into private
3 session. May we go into private session, please.
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 5761-5770 redacted. Private session
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, how much longer are you going to be,
16 just to double-check with the interpreters?
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have only ten more
18 minutes. I will be very brief.
19 Q. Witness, please -- witness, that means that until 1994, it was not
20 possible for a single foreigner to enter
21 not been let through either by the Croatian or the Serbian authorities, if
22 we leave aside UNPROFOR planes, which is how you got there; is that
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. And those UNPROFOR flights were something that the Government of
3 A. Yes, they didn't have any influence over those flights.
4 Q. Thank you. After the Washington Agreement, so just a part of the
5 border was again held by the forces of Bosnian Croats and the Republic of
7 forces; am I correct?
8 A. That is correct. Just the southwestern borders, the borders
10 control of the Bosnian Croats.
11 Q. So foreigners who had their own passports were able to go in and
12 out without the authorities of
13 information about that? I'm thinking of the regular authorities of the
15 A. Yes, that is correct. And if I may add, the time after the
16 signing of the Washington Agreement was the time when the bulk of foreign
17 nationals joined the detachment.
18 Q. Thank you. I would just like to ask you something else briefly.
19 In response to His Honour Judge Harhoff, in your response and then
20 also elaborating on an answer given to the Prosecution, you spoke about
21 decisions relating to participation in attacks and also meetings that had
22 to do with that. You described -- you said -- Your Honours, if we can now
23 go into closed session for a minute, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
25 [Private session]
11 Page 5773 redacted. Private session
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now that we are in open session, can I openly say
1 to you thank you very much for accommodating us, all of you, and also
2 thank you to the parties for agreeing to sit this afternoon.
3 This brings us to the conclusion of your testimony today, sir.
4 Thank you so much for coming to testify. You are now excused and you may
5 go -- you may stand down, and we wish you well in your travel back home.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 I beg your pardon. May we please move into private session so the
9 witness may go out.
10 [Private session]
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at ,
4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day of
5 November, 2007, at