1 Friday, 30 November 2007
2 [Closed session]
11 Pages 6408-6422 redacted. Closed session
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, while the witness is coming into the
3 courtroom, I would just take this opportunity to remind everyone that, as
4 I indicated in my letter dated 28 November, this witness does have some
5 health issues that may require us to take a more frequent break, if need
6 be, due to his health conditions. I just put that out at this point in
7 the event that it becomes apparent that we might need to break. I will
8 ask to do so.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
10 Good morning, sir. May the witness please make the declaration.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
12 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
13 and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: EKREM ALIHODZIC
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
17 Yes, Mr. Neuner.
18 Examination by Mr. Mundis:
19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Alihodzic.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. For the record, sir, could you please state your full name and
22 tell us your date and place of birth?
23 A. Ekrem Alihodzic, born on the 9th of April, 1951, in the village of
24 Kljucani Vakuf, Municipality of Sanski Most, Republic of
1 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, before we begin, let me tell you that the Chamber
2 is aware of your medical situation, and if at any point in time you need
3 to take a break, simply tell us and we will accommodate that.
4 A. Yes, I understand. Thank you for your understanding.
5 Q. Also, sir, I think I speak on behalf of everyone when I say we
6 will do our best to ensure that your testimony finishes as quickly as
7 possible. In order to do that, I would ask you to please focus on the
8 question asked and answer only that question, in order to expedite
9 proceedings. I can assure you that you'll be given a full opportunity to
10 explain anything and also that there very well might be follow-up
11 questions. But if you could please focus your attention on the question
12 asked and answer only that question, things will move a little bit more
14 Mr. Alihodzic, did you join the JNA at any point in time, and if
15 so, when did you join that armed force?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May I just be of assistance,
18 Your Honours. Could my colleague, Mr. Mundis, lead the witness through
19 these questions so that we can deal with all of this faster? Thank you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Mundis. Thank you for
22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Ms. Vidovic.
23 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, did you join the JNA in 1970?
24 A. Yes, I graduated from Secondary Military School in 1970.
25 Q. Sir, I see you taking out the list of dates from your wallet.
1 Perhaps if you could just put that down for the moment and not refer to
2 that. I'll simply ask you some questions. I believe if you need to look
3 at the list of dates, the Chamber might allow you to do so, but I would
4 simply ask if you -- that you not look at that for the moment, please.
5 A. [In English] Okay.
6 Q. Sir, after graduating from the Secondary Military School in 1970,
7 did you remain a member of the JNA until 1991?
8 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
9 Q. And from 1972 until the end of your period with the JNA in 1991,
10 was your specialisation in military security and military police work
11 within the JNA?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And, sir, on or about 5 January 1993, did you report to the 3rd
14 Corps Command in Zenica?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. At that time, were you assigned to the 333rd Mountain Brigade in
17 Kacuni as assistant to the commander?
18 A. Yes, but not as assistant commander, but let's put it this way,
19 coordinator, a person who was supposed to help the commander of the then
20 333rd Mountain Brigade.
21 Q. And, sir, on or about 4 May 1993, did you in fact become the
22 commander of the 333rd Mountain Brigade of the 3rd Corps?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And on 22 September 1993, you were wounded, which resulted in your
25 being hospitalised until 10 January 1994; is that correct?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. And following this hospitalisation, you returned to the 333rd
3 Mountain Brigade and remained the commander of that unit until 5 October
4 1994; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, correct.
6 Q. And, Mr. Alihodzic, from 5 October 1994 until 31 March 1995, you
7 served as the chief of the Counter-Intelligence Department within the 3rd
8 Corps Military Security Department; is that correct?
9 A. It was called "The Department for Counter-Intelligence Affairs,"
10 or, rather, "The Organ for Counter-intelligence Affairs."
11 Q. And that organ, the counter-intelligence organ, was part of the
12 Security Department of the 3rd Corps; is that right?
13 A. It was within the department of the service. I am using the exact
14 denominations from the establishment of the Command of the 3rd Corps.
15 Q. And, Mr. Alihodzic, is it correct that on 31 March 1995, you were
16 appointed as the 3rd Corps assistant commander for military security?
17 A. Correct, chief of the Department of the Military Security and
18 assistant commander for military security, which would be more in line
19 with the rules and what the rules exactly say.
20 Q. And, sir, you remained as the chief of the Department of Military
21 Security and assistant commander for military security of the 3rd Corps
22 from 31 March 1995 until 16 August 1995; is that correct?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. And from 16 August 1995 until 22 March 1996, you served as the
25 commander of the 37th Division of the 3rd Corps, based in Tesanj?
1 A. The command of the division was in Tesanj, and units were deployed
2 in a broader locality, and it is true that I had that duty.
3 Q. Sir, can you briefly tell us -- I want to focus your attention now
4 on the period from 31 March 1995 until 16 August 1995, when you were the
5 assistant commander for military security in the 3rd Corps. Can you tell
6 us, sir, what your responsibilities entailed during this time period as
7 the assistant commander for military security?
8 A. My responsibilities were regulated through the Rules of Service,
9 of the rules governing military security. In terms of segments, they were
10 divided into three areas, if I can put it that way.
11 The first is counter-intelligence protection and self-protection
12 of commands and units. The second area dealt with staff security and
13 military security affairs. And the third area was analytical and
14 information activities. This was in line with the organisational and
15 establishment structure of the department for security of the 3rd Corps.
16 Later, this division was transformed into a department for military
18 I would really need the Rules of Service for the organs of
19 military security to speak thoroughly about all the authority that was
20 vested in these organs. At this point in time, I cannot give you a more
21 accurate answer without resorting to the rules themselves.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
23 I would ask that the witness now be shown the document 364 marked
24 for identification. 364 marked for identification, please.
25 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, do you see the document on the screen in front of
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you tell us what this document is, please?
4 A. This is a primary document -- or, rather, secondary document that
5 was created based on a primary document. This is a daily report drafted
6 by the Military Security Service.
7 Q. When you say, sir, "the Military Security Service," the military
8 security service of what organisation or entity?
9 A. The 3rd Corps, the 3rd Corps.
10 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please go to the last page of this
11 document in Bosnian and page 12 of the English version, please.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but in French I heard
13 "a secondary document," and in the transcript, in English, I see "primary
15 Could you specify, please, Mr. Mundis.
16 MR. MUNDIS:
17 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, this document, would you characterise this as a
18 primary document or a secondary document? And can you explain for us what
19 exactly those terms mean.
20 A. This is a secondary document, and I'll explain what this is very
22 In a series of documents, I believe, and the documents that will
23 be presented to me later on, we will see that those documents have the
24 same nature. Reports of the military security organs of the 3rd Corps who
25 wrote to the 3rd Corps wrote their daily reports that treated security
1 matters. This would be an initial document of a division, of a brigade,
2 also one of the 16 brigades. The Corps at that time had 16 brigades, or
3 two divisions, then independent battalions. There were 16 independent
4 battalions, including four from those two divisions I
6 Then there was a number of platoons of military police, then two
7 companies of the military police, one battalion of the military police,
8 and they all submitted to the Military Security Service of the 3rd Corps,
9 their daily reports, in this form.
10 Then, finally, after the department of the Military Security
11 Service of the 3rd Corps, all of this would be read out, then it would be
12 sent to the analysis people or, rather, the organ of security of the
13 3rd Corps, and then a report would be compiled on the basis of all of
14 this. Now, that can have -- that can lead to certain comments, this kind
15 of comment and that kind of comment.
16 This is a product of the person who wrote the report. It is
17 possible that one organ considers this this way, and had it been written
18 by someone else, it would have been different. But, at any rate, an
19 effort was made to write it realistically; some things that were
20 superfluous were omitted.
21 Q. Let me, if I could, interrupt you there, sir, because I think
22 you've explained that difference to us.
23 If you could return to the document on the screen, and I would ask
24 you, sir: Whose name appears at the bottom of this document we've been
25 looking at, 364 MFI?
1 A. In the left-hand corner are the initials of the person who did
2 this, and the other initials were the initials of the person who typed
3 this out.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, we have great trouble hearing
5 the witness because other microphones are on.
6 MR. MUNDIS: If we could scroll over to the left of the document,
7 please, on the B/C/S. No, just to the left. And also on the English, if
8 we could go to the full left side.
9 Q. Sir, do you recognise the initials of the person who drafted this
11 A. I see an "R," the letter "R." The next letter is not discernible
12 or legible. I can only assume -- now, is it a "C" with a diacritic? I
13 don't know. I cannot see this letter properly, so I cannot fully identify
15 MR. MUNDIS: If we could then go to the right-hand side of the
16 document in Bosnian, please.
17 Q. And, sir, I'd ask you if you recognise -- if you recognise whose
18 type-signed name appears on this document.
19 A. My name and last name were typed out on this document.
20 Q. And I take it, sir, that some of the characters would represent
21 diacritics in the Bosnian language and that's why they don't appear to be
22 legible on this copy or understandable on this copy.
23 A. That's right. That reflected the state of logistics and the
24 possibilities of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 MR. MUNDIS: If we could then go back, please, to the first page
1 in both English and Bosnian, please.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Alihodzic, I'd like to focus your attention on the top
3 half of this document, please. Can you tell us, if you know, what the
4 stamp on the right-hand side, in the middle of the document, indicates?
5 A. The stamp on the upper right-hand side is recognisable to me. It
6 denotes the Administration of the Service of Military Security of the
7 General Staff of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and, at any rate, this is
8 a stamp, and everything that is written here and these lines that you can
9 see here, that was added in, so to speak, outside this secondary document
10 that was created in the service of the military security of the 3rd Corps,
11 after it was sent to the administration. I don't know where this stamp
12 was affixed, who wrote all of this and so on.
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the
15 MR. MUNDIS:
16 Q. Can you repeat the end of the answer, sir? You said you didn't
17 know where the stamp was affixed, who wrote all of this. Was there
18 anything you wanted to add to that answer, sir?
19 A. There is nothing for me to add. This is the statement I have to
20 make. This is my final answer: When I wrote the document and it was sent
21 through my organs to the superior service of military security, everything
22 that happened further on with the document, that is their own affair, and
23 I cannot give my comments with regard to that.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
25 The Prosecution would ask this document be admitted into evidence,
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
3 please be given an exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will become Exhibit number 364.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now the witness be shown Exhibit 580,
7 Exhibit 580, please.
8 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, do you see this document on the screen in front of
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask if we could have the full-page version of
12 the Bosnian be shown, please.
13 Q. Sir, whose signature appears on this document?
14 A. My signature is on this document.
15 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please scroll to the bottom paragraph on
16 the first page of the English version, and if we could focus in on the
17 bottom half of the document or the middle half of the -- the middle part
18 of the document in Bosnian, please.
19 Q. Sir, do you see the reference in the middle of this document to
20 captives who are under the control of the El Mujahedin Detachment?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you comment upon that part of this document which you signed,
24 A. My comment would be that there were captures and that the organ of
25 security of the 35th Division was stopped or, rather, he had no access to
1 prisoners of war, as far as I can remember at this point in time, after
2 all this time.
3 Q. And, Mr. Alihodzic, when you say he had no access to prisoners of
4 war, who are you referring to, and why was it that that person had no
5 access to prisoners of war?
6 A. We mean the security organ of the 35th Division. Now, why? Due
7 to the behaviour of individuals and the fact that they did not allow this
8 to happen, they -- from this detachment, I don't know these specific
9 persons, so I cannot give a broader explanation.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, sir.
11 If we could now scroll up to the top of the document in both
12 English and B/C/S.
13 Q. And I would again, sir, ask you if you can tell us anything about
14 the stamp that appears under the words "Strictly Confidential." What does
15 that stamp indicate or tell us, if you know?
16 A. Again, how should I define this as briefly as possible? This is
17 the stamp of the Military Security Administration. I recognise it because
18 I read this here. That is what is written here. Whether that is really
19 the stamp that was used by this service and what was done and what was not
20 done, that is not what I can comment. This was not an integral part of my
21 work and what I established and so on.
22 Do you understand what I'm saying?
23 But, please, when I write a document and when I send it to the
24 administration, well, I would not go into comments of this kind, because I
25 can now start a debate and -- in this sense, the General Staff of the Army
1 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, with its administration in Sarajevo, had its head
2 and this stamp, and this same administration had a forward command post in
3 Kakanj, and this stamp could have been used in Kakanj as well. And it is
4 for that reason that I am saying this, because this does not make it
5 possible for me to be very precise in my answer, and then I don't want to
6 sin against myself or anyone else in this court.
7 So, please, if we can be careful about this kind of thing when we
8 are discussing it.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's a matter of
10 interpretation, if I may.
11 Page 29, line 8, the witness said: "That was not part of my
12 work," whereas here it says: "This was part of my work." And then that
13 would create confusion.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Fair enough. I appreciate that, Madam Vidovic. Thank
16 If this document could now be put away, and I would ask that the
17 witness be shown Exhibit 858, Exhibit 858.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, may I intervene? Could you
19 show the lower initials on this document that we discussed? Ganibegovic,
20 Ibro, was the person who processed this document from the security organ
21 of the 3rd Corps, and it says here "cc'd number 1" circle around it,
22 "Organ of Security, Bezbednost," I think this is an "S" with a diacritic,
23 "Sh", something seems to be changing here. "Kakanj," it says "Kakanj."
24 And you understand me, we have this same stamp in the heading. That is
25 what makes it equivocal, whether this stamp was affixed in Sarajevo or in
1 Kakanj, and that is very meaningful.
2 Thank you.
3 MR. MUNDIS:
4 Q. Sir, while we're at this part of the document, can you tell us, if
5 you know, what the handwriting in the circle indicates towards the bottom
6 of the document?
7 A. Well, that's what I've just explained. Underneath, it says:
8 "Done in two copies." That's a mistake already. And then it was cc'd to
9 these units, number 1, 1 times 1, the Security Administration of the
10 General Staff. That's what's written in the document. Then the next one,
11 1 times Security Organ of the General Staff of the army, Kakanj, dash, and
12 I don't see the rest, what it says, and then 1 times, and then there's a
14 This would mean that this document went to the command post of the
15 Security Organ of the General Staff in Kakanj.
16 Further on, it says -- I don't see the rest, but I see that it's
17 the 3rd.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if my colleagues from
19 the OTP can ensure adequate translations into English in situations like
20 this one. To see that a circle is made, you see, can a circle be placed
21 in the English version too? Now the witness is explaining the relevancy
22 of the fact that number 2 has been circled in the Bosnian version, and I
23 don't see any circle like that in the English version.
24 MR. MUNDIS: We've made a note of that, Your Honours, and we'll
25 seek to have this document revised.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 MR. MUNDIS: I note the time. Before I turn to the next document,
3 perhaps we could take the recess at this point in time, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.
5 We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 11.00.
6 Court adjourned.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 If the witness can now be shown Exhibit 858. Exhibit 858, please.
12 If we could go to page 2 in the English and if we could get the
13 full-screen version in the Bosnian, please. Page 2 in English.
14 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, can you tell us who signed this document?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. And can you tell us, sir, who drafted the document?
17 A. Ganibegovic, Ibrahim.
18 Q. And I know that we will have this document corrected as well.
19 Again, at the bottom in the list to which this document apparently was
20 submitted there's a circle. Can you tell us what that represents and
21 where this copy of this document was sent to, please?
22 A. This means that this secondary document which provides
23 information, one copy of it was sent to the security organ of the army's
24 General Staff in Kakanj.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just ask a question here. Sir, does it mean
1 that these other addressees who are not circled, does it mean it was not
2 sent to them, the GS ARBiH UB, and the OB IKM Orahovo and the others?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you look at this document, you
4 can see that it's circled. You can see it was sent to the army's General
5 Staff in Kakanj, which again implies --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sir. I understand that. I'm talking about
7 those that are not circled. Does it mean it was not sent to those who are
8 not circled?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When this information was written,
10 it was decided, and that was the practice, that it should be forwarded to
11 the organs as written here.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me, sir. I must stop you. We're trying to
13 get as short answers as possible. Was this document not sent to the
14 addressees who are not circled?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document, what was circled
16 means that only this organ received it. Another document was received by
17 the Security Administration, General Staff of the Army of BH, and the
18 first one, that was circled, and the rest was not, which means that it was
19 sent then. The answer to the question about whether it was sent to these
20 other organs, you can establish that if you look at the documents, if you
21 look at the incoming registers.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, you're not answering my question. You
23 know, I'm trying to understand the significance of the circling, sir. This
24 document is addressed to several addressees, one, two, three, four, five.
25 Only one is circled. Now, you've told us that the significance of the
1 circle is that it was sent to that person who is circled. My question is,
2 and you can answer it by saying either "yes" or "no," does this mean that
3 those were sent to those who were not circled? That's a very simple
4 question. It doesn't need a long explanation.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that, but what is being shown
6 to me, based on what is circled here, one could say that it was not sent
7 to any of the other organs mentioned here.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MR. MUNDIS: If we could now go back to page 1 in English.
10 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, I'd like to focus your attention, please, on the
11 second paragraph, and I have a very simple question for you. And this
12 concerns the last sentence of the second paragraph. It states:
13 "The security organ conducted the interview in the presence of the
14 35th Division intelligence officer in order to obtain intelligence and
15 security-related information about the enemy."
16 The interview that's referred to, Mr. Alihodzic, do you have any
17 knowledge as to who conducted this interview, the person or persons who
18 conducted this interview?
19 A. As for the first and last name, I don't know who conducted this
20 interview. It was conducted by one of the operatives of the security
21 organ of the 35th Division of the ground forces based in Zavidovici.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Could we please go to document or Exhibit 859. I
23 would ask if we go to the second page in Bosnian and the fourth page in
24 English, please. I'm sorry, it should be the third page in Bosnian, and
25 the bottom of that page in English, please.
1 Q. Sir, we'll ask this document be revised to indicate the
2 handwritten circle on the bottom of the document, but, sir, can you tell
3 us whose signature this is, and who drafted this document?
4 A. This is my signature on this information. Who wrote this, it's
5 not identifiable, apart from the letter "E." I assume -- I assume that
6 this might have been -- I can't even assume. I apologise. No assumption.
7 I thought Major Ancic at first, but then I couldn't. The initial is
8 "E". I can't remember the first and last name of the typist who did this.
9 MR. MUNDIS: If we could then please go back to the first page of
10 the document in both languages.
11 Q. And again, sir, I would refer your attention to the first
12 paragraph of this document that again makes reference to: "Interview of
13 the captured aggressor soldiers by the 35th Division Military Security
14 Service organ." And I would ask you, sir, if you recall or have any
15 knowledge as to who, within the 35th Division Military Security Service
16 organ, conducted the interview with these three individuals.
17 A. Judging by the first and last names, I don't know who conducted
18 the interview.
19 Q. Do you recall, sir, any additional specifics concerning the three
20 individuals who were captured and whose names appear on this document?
21 A. Aside from what I can actually see, what I'm looking at, this
22 information being shown, and now this reminds me -- takes me back to a
23 time when this was all happening, I can't remember any other details, and
24 it's not entirely certain that I can even remember this, to additionally
25 recognate my memories, persons, other information, and knowledge.
1 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that document be put away.
2 I would ask the witness be shown PT01872. Sorry.
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] No, please leave the document on
5 I'm extremely sorry to go back to the issue of the circle, but I'd
6 like to know the following, Witness: To your knowledge, the stamp that we
7 see at the top, is that the stamp of the organ that received the document?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can read what the
9 stamp contains: "Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, General Staff of the
10 Army, Administration of the Military Security Service," number
11 such-and-such, the date being what it is, the 28th of July, 1995.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] According to you, does that
13 correspond to the addressee that had a circle affixed to it?
14 Could we show the bottom part of the document where we have the
15 list of addressees.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, that's what it says,
17 "Security Administration, General Staff of the Army of
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Would I be mistaken if I said
20 that the circle around the "1" next to the addressee was affixed by the
21 addressee who received the document?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's exactly the opposite. The
23 circling was executed by whichever organ put together this information,
24 this being the security organ of the 3rd Corps, and they would circle
25 number 1, the first document, to be sent there, and then expediting the
1 General Staff, Kakanj, on the other document, same substance, same
2 signature. And then the third, the fourth, and so on and so forth.
3 How many people, how many organs that were sent this, that's how
4 many copies the information was reproduced in. Individually, on each
5 single sheet of paper, you could circle one organ, that being the organ
6 that the information was forwarded to.
7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you for this clarification;
8 that is to say, that in this particular document, this circle around just
9 one of the addressees does not mean that the document was sent just to
10 this one?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, that's right. This
12 document that was circled once, one time, security organ of the General
13 Staff of the army in Kakanj, means that it certainly went to the command
14 post in Kakanj, the command post in Kakanj.
15 Now, that is the problem. If you look at the header of the
16 document at the top of the document, you asked me about that stamp, the
17 square stamp. You asked me what it says. Judging by that, if you look at
18 that, it follows that the document went to Sarajevo, the Security
19 Administration of the General Staff of the Army in Sarajevo, and that was
20 not the case, which means that the security organ in Sarajevo of the
21 Security Administration had this stamp -- such a stamp, and the security
22 organ in Kakanj had the same stamp. That causes an impossibility, in
23 terms of properly identifying the document, in terms of who received it,
24 if we look at the stamp.
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I just wanted to make sure that
1 the other copies that we do not have here, that the other copies sent to
2 the organs listed here would have been circled depending on the organ they
3 were sent to?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour, just that
6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just heard that you
9 said this document was sent to everyone. The witness never said that, if
10 I may just notice for the record. I heard you say that.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.
12 Yes, Mr. Mundis.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 I would ask now that the witness be shown PT01871. PT01871.
15 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, do you see the document on the screen in front of
17 A. Yes, but it is difficult to take it all in.
18 Q. Can you tell us, sir, who produced this document or who drafted
19 this document?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see the heading of the English version,
21 please. Thank you.
22 I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Mundis, but can I get confirmation of
23 the date as it appears on the Bosnian version, of the date of this
25 MR. MUNDIS:
1 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, do you see the date of this document, please, and
2 can you tell us what that date is?
3 A. Zenica, the 20th, possibly the 28th of November, 1994. The 20th
4 or possibly the 28th.
5 Q. And, sir, can you tell us who drafted this document?
6 A. Judging by the initials, Mr. Mehmed Siljak, "MS" with a diacritic,
7 Mehmed Siljak.
8 Q. And can you tell us, sir, who was Mr. Mehmed Siljak?
9 A. He was an operative, an analyst with the Military Security
10 Department of the 3rd Corps.
11 Q. And can you tell us, sir, based on the markings on this document,
12 where this document was sent?
13 A. Well, things being what they are, it wasn't sent anywhere, because
14 nothing is circled. What we said before, what we discussed. Logically,
15 this document could only have remained with the Military Security
16 Department of the 3rd Corps, but that's not necessarily what it means. I
17 don't think there's a clear-cut answer to this one.
18 Q. Sir, do you see the stamp below your type-signed name? And if you
19 do see that stamp, can you tell us what that stamp says or what that stamp
21 A. The stamp says: "Main Staff of the Armed Forces, Security
22 Administration," in the Latin script, and in the Cyrillic, the same thing,
23 and the date, the 21st of November, 1994.
24 Q. Turning, sir, to the contents of the document, can you tell us
25 what is being reported in this document?
1 A. It's difficult to read because the Bosnian is very difficult to
3 Paragraph 1 mentions the arrival of the El Mujahedin unit, that's
4 what it says, in Livade village.
5 Q. Let me just interrupt you there, sir. Do you know how Mr.
6 Mehmed Siljak came to draft this document concerning the arrival of the
7 El Mujahedin unit in Livade village?
8 A. Given the fact that this is a primary document, and Mehmed Siljak
9 as the security organ of the 3rd Corps, the Military Security Department
10 went to the security organ of the 35th Division or, rather, this is
11 OG Bosnia [as interpreted], and made a note on the application of methods
12 and work of the security organ, which it forwarded to the Military
13 Security Department. That's one way.
14 The other way could have been this: The security organ of
15 OG Bosnia [as interpreted] used the regular format for Q and A and for
16 reporting within the Military Security Service, and made a report that was
17 received by the Corps or, rather, by the security department of the
18 3rd Corps, and in the absence of any possibility to gain insight into this
19 primary document, I can't say with any certainty whether this is an
20 official note or a report, but it was either of these two that reached the
21 Security Service of the 3rd Corps in a written form, which was then used
22 as a basis for this information that you see here.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, sir.
24 We'd ask that this document be admitted into evidence,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like to see the English translation of the
2 handwritten remarks before we do that. Thank you.
3 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps let me ask a follow-up question concerning
5 Q. Sir, do you know whose handwriting appears on the top of this
6 document? There appears to be two different handwritings. Do you
7 recognise either, or both, or neither of those handwriting exemplars?
8 A. I see two different samples, but I can't confirm who they belong
9 to because I don't know.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you very much.
11 We'd ask the document be admitted into evidence, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
13 please be given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 932.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown the
17 document marked PT02064. PT02064, please.
18 And if we could please see the entire document in Bosnian.
19 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell us what this document is, please?
22 A. This document is a report or information. It's a primary document
23 in nature, to the Military Security Service on the 10th of May, 1995.
24 If you could please pull it up for the initials so that we can see
25 who drafted it.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Go to page 2 in Bosnia and page 3 in English, please.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This information was put together by
3 Osman Vlajcic. I signed it, although there is no signature, but I think
4 the document must be identical. And that's as far as I can see. You
5 can't see who it was delivered to, but there are some markings there,
6 Security Administration, counter-intelligence section of the 3rd Corps,
7 the analysis sector of the 3rd Corps. So that's where the document should
8 be found.
9 MR. MUNDIS:
10 Q. And, sir, to the left, above the initials of Mr. Vlajcic and the
11 typist, we see the following words written: "Source: Reliable.
12 Information: True." Can you explain to us what that means?
13 A. This is lack of training on the part of the security organ who
14 wrote this information. Absence of training or insufficient training,
15 because in the existing terminology used by the Military Security Service,
16 a source is a person who works in parallel to the Military Security
17 Service. In their working methodology, this would imply that the security
18 organ had different ways open to it, in terms of obtaining such
19 intelligence. If, for example, a degree of truthfulness was ascertained,
20 then you could speak of an associate or an informer of the Military
21 Security Service. No sources were evaluated in that sense, but I know who
22 the operative officer is behind this. I know whose methodology this is.
23 I recognise the terminology. This is Osman Vlajcic, a retired official of
24 the State Security Service, and this would be in the domain of their own
25 evaluations of persons who they worked with, in the operative sense, and
1 obtained information from. This would mean that he's claiming that the
2 source of this particular piece of information is reliable and the actual
3 information is accurate.
4 Q. Sir, during the period 1995, when you were the assistant commander
5 for security in the 3rd Corps, to whom did Mr. Vlajcic report?
6 A. To me.
7 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go back to page 1 of both versions of
8 this document.
9 Q. Sir, do you have any recollection or knowledge as to how
10 Mr. Vlajcic came upon the information that is set forth in this document?
11 A. He resorted to terminological declarations, as I've explained
12 before, and this wasn't something that was not typical of the Military
13 Security Service. I can assume that --
14 Q. Let me interrupt you, sir, if I may. My question, simply, is: Do
15 you know how Mr. Vlajcic obtained the information contained in this
17 A. That's what I'm trying to say. That was the next step that I was
19 This is about the application of means and methods of work of the
20 Military Security Service. One of these methods was secret recordings
21 that were made. I associate that method with what the first sentence
22 says, "an entirely reliable source." I'm making a link there.
23 Q. And what do you mean, sir, by: "One of these methods was secret
24 recordings that were made"? Can you elaborate on that sentence, please?
25 A. Certainly. The security organ of the Service of Military
1 Security, regardless of level of organisation or establishment structure
2 from battalion, brigade, division, corps, the Administration of Military
3 Security had the powers of the Military Security Service, meaning certain
4 rights that they could exercise. And also within the rules of service of
5 the organs of the military police, the methods and ways in which the
6 military security should work were prescribed as well. One of the methods
7 was personal observations of the authorised official, interviews, working
8 with contacts, secret intercepts, listening to intercepts, intercepting
9 mail and so on.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. Alihodzic.
11 The Prosecution would ask this document be admitted into evidence,
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
14 please be given an exhibit number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit 933.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask the witness now be shown the document
18 marked PT02107. PT02107, please.
19 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, do you see the document on the screen in front of
20 you, sir?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell us what this document is, please?
23 A. This is a piece of information, a secondary document -- no, sorry,
24 a primary document. I beg your pardon. It's a secondary document; that
25 is to say, it was created at the second level.
1 Q. And can you tell us -- if we could go to page 2, please, in the
2 English. Can you tell us, sir, who drafted this document and on whose
3 authority the document was drafted?
4 A. It was drafted with my approval. That's the way I see it. As for
5 how I understood this document, I would need to see the primary document,
6 where I initialled it by the heading, where I said everything that should
7 be done in relation to this document. So I really cannot say on the basis
8 of this. It's Ganibegovic, Ibrahim, who drafted it, and I signed it. It
9 says here "Unsigned," but probably there is a piece of information that
10 was signed.
11 MR. MUNDIS: And if we can go back to page 1 in the English.
12 Q. Sir, do you have any recollection of the information that's being
13 reported in this document?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we turn to page 2 in the English, please.
15 MR. MUNDIS:
16 Q. Sir, do you remember these incidents that are reported in this
18 A. If I were not to be looking at this document, I would remember the
19 content of this document or, rather, the action that had been taken at the
20 time, because this did cause some attention on my part. This is just
21 jogging my memory, in terms of the form in which it was written.
22 Q. Do you remember anything -- you just told us, sir, that this:
23 "This did cause some attention on my part," and I'm wondering if you could
24 elaborate upon that, if you could tell us what you mean by that.
25 A. Well, the attention was due to the fact that this had to do with
1 desecration of tombs. But generally speaking, may I say something about
2 this document?
3 There is something here that differs from the standards of
4 military security. We aspired for that, but we did not always manage to
5 do that because of the level of education of our organs. It does not
6 contain the way or method in which these data were obtained. Also, the
7 data referred to here in this information should have been dealt with in a
8 different way.
9 My recollection is that this action was taken, but at that time I
10 could not, through the engagement of all the division organs, I could not
11 ensure the documentation of these persons, in terms of their affiliation
12 with the Mujahedin Detachment. You see, it says here in the first
13 paragraph: "Members of the detachment," and in the third and fourth he
14 uses the word "El Mujahedin" under quotation marks. So the detachment was
15 unequivocal there, and my thoughts and the entire operational
16 investigation of the developments meant that we could not establish
17 whether it was done by someone from the detachment or some of the
18 Mujahedin who were not within that detachment.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if my colleague, the
21 Prosecutor, can explain, it's a question of translation. Page 46, line 9,
22 the witness is now talking about the first part of the document where El
23 Mujahid is referred to, and then he starts talking about Mujahedin.
24 However, it is the word "El Mujahedin" that is entered into the
25 transcript, and the witness is making a distinction.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
2 MR. MUNDIS: I think that's clear from the transcript,
3 Your Honour.
4 Q. But, sir, when you make this distinction between El Mujahedin unit
5 and Mujahedin, are you quoting from the document that's on the screen in
6 front of you?
7 A. I see that precisely in the document, that that is the way it's
8 represented there. In essence, these are two different things. The first
9 means a member of the detachment El Mujahedin, and the second statement
10 has to do with a particular individual being a Mujahedin, which does not
11 mean that this person belongs to the detachment of El Mujahedin.
12 Q. And let me ask you that, sir, because that raises an interesting
13 point, the distinction between El Mujahedin unit and Mujahedin as
14 reflected in this document. What steps, if any, did you take to determine
15 whether the actions described in this document were attributable to the
16 El Mujahedin unit?
17 A. Without looking at this document, I stated that I recall this
18 incident because it attracted my attention. I certainly distinguish
19 between members of the detachment and Mujahedins, because a Mujahid, a
20 Mujahedin, in terminology could have meant any --
21 Q. But my question, sir, was a slightly different one. I understand
22 the distinction in the terminology. My question is: Based on this report
23 that talks about members of the El Mujahedin unit, it says at the top of
24 page 2 in the English, in the first page obviously in the Bosnian:
25 "Immediately after taking over the trenches, the El Mujahedin
1 members started demolishing tombstones in the cemetery."
2 And my question to you is: What steps, if any, did you take, as
3 the assistant commander for security of the 3rd Corps, to ascertain who
4 had desecrated this cemetery?
5 A. You see, these measures that were taken by the Military Security
6 Service. Now we're talking about measures that I took.
7 The Military Security Service, on the basis of initial knowledge,
8 initial knowledge, engaged itself in documenting this case. These
9 measures - yet again, due to the lack of documents concerned and the
10 confirmation of my statement, let me be 100 per cent convincing - were
11 directed at the following: To reconstruct or, rather, carry an on-site
13 I remember that this incident was documented. There must be a
14 cassette somewhere as well. However, this meant other measures, too;
15 establishing the persons who are participants in these events and
16 conducting interviews in order to document the incident. Those are the
17 measures that were taken by the Military Security Service.
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, if I may, could you look
19 at the last paragraph of this document and tell us whether this
20 expression, in English, "El Mujahedin unit," one meant the El Mujahedin
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Could you explain to us why it is
24 said here that one should take all the necessary measures as regards these
25 soldiers of the El Mujahedin Detachment if, as you have told us, you
1 didn't acknowledge that these were the members of this particular
2 detachment who had committed these crimes or this crime?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the answer to that
4 question reflects the level of education and training on the part of the
5 security organ of that division. If he had been trained enough, he would
6 not have made a mistake in the second paragraph, referring to the
7 detachment and to El Mujahedins. He considers this to be a conclusion,
8 and again he is in a position to claim or, rather -- rather say that this
9 was done by the El Mujahedin Detachment. That is why he is writing it
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, sir, this document goes under your signature.
12 Therefore, you should correct it. If his level of education causes him to
13 make such mistakes, we expect that you should correct them before you sign
14 the document. At this time now, as we are talking, we don't attribute
15 this document to that person, we attribute it to you, the signatory, and
16 therefore any mistakes in here must be explained by you. You can't
17 explain them by referring to the level of education of the draftsman.
18 What steps did you take, sir, to correct that problem, that
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Behind this document, behind this
21 piece of information, I assume there are other documents as well.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, but what did you do to correct the mistake
23 on this document, not the mistake behind the document, on this paragraph?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In terms of correcting the mistake
25 on this document, I can say that I didn't do anything, because that would
1 mean that I would leave all my principal work and tasks and that I go to
2 Zavidovici, which is 50 kilometres away, to train security organs. And in
3 the chain of tasks -- well, I don't want to preempt matters, but I don't
4 know where, on this ladder, such tasks were, in terms of our priorities.
5 But the important thing is that the service registered even the most minor
6 points. They did not hide anything from themselves and others, so
7 everything could be further observed.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I be clear, understand what you're saying? Do
9 I understand you to say that the person who drafted the document for you
10 to sign sits 50 kilometres away from you, sat at that time 50 kilometres
11 away from you?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person who drafted this document
13 sat in the Command, in the building where I was.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: What has 50 kilometres got to do with your answer
15 or with the question that I've put to you?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it has to do with what I'm
17 saying right now. I mean, this document was created on the basis of a
18 report or a note of the security organ of the 35th Division, who was in
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You understand the distinction between the
21 Mujahedin and El Mujahedin Detachment. When the man in your office drafts
22 the document and writes this last paragraph and says to you, "You must
23 sign that because of the events that have happened," you're going to make
24 sure that proper discipline is maintained within the El Mujahedin unit,
25 when in fact, according to you, it is Mujahedin, why do you allow yourself
1 to sign the document in that form? You've just answered a question to
2 Judge here now.
3 You have no answer?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no answer, but I can only add
5 that this is one of the 110 documents that --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you don't have an answer, thank you so much.
7 Mr. Mundis, you can continue.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 We'd ask this document be admitted into evidence, please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
11 please be given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 934.
13 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness now be shown the document
14 that's marked PT02340. PT02340.
15 Q. Sir, do you see this document on the screen in front of you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And can you tell us, please - and perhaps we go to page 2 in
18 English - who signed this document, sir, and who was the drafter of this
20 A. I signed the document, and it was drafted by Mr. Osman Vlajcic.
21 And the document was sent, I'd say that straight away, to the Security
22 Department of the General Staff in Kakanj.
23 Q. Now, sir, if we could go back to page 1 in English, please, sir,
24 do you see in the very first line of this document it states:
25 "Through a completely reliable source, we learned about the
1 contact that Isaa from the El Mujahedin unit had with E. Muad from Rijadh,
2 Saudi Arabia."
3 Do you see that, sir?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Alihodzic, or can you tell us, if you know, how
6 it is that Mr. Vlajcic came upon the information that is contained in this
8 A. Mr. Vlajcic obtained these results by applying the method of
9 secretly listening in on conversations.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, sir.
11 We would ask that this document be admitted, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
13 please be given an exhibit number?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 935.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask the witness now be shown Exhibit 773.
17 Exhibit 773, please.
18 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, do you see this document on the screen in front of
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Can you perhaps tell us, sir, at the top, in the center of the
22 document, there's some handwriting under the initials "KOO," do you see
23 that handwriting, sir?
24 A. I can't see the "KOO." I don't know where you see that. Oh, this
25 thing up here, yes, yes. The handwritten part, yes, I see that.
1 Q. Whose handwriting is that, sir?
2 A. That is my handwriting.
3 Q. And can you tell us, Mr. Alihodzic, who was this handwriting
4 directed to? In other words, were you asking someone or directing someone
5 to do something, and if so, who?
6 A. I wrote in hand, in terms of this document, that it came to the
7 Corps, to the head of the counter-intelligence organ, Mr. Osman Vlajcic,
8 and I gave him the task to check this person, whether he was a member, and
9 to give him permission to get a travelling document in order to be given
10 medical treatment abroad, as stated in this document.
11 MR. MUNDIS: And if we could please scroll on the Bosnian version
12 to the far right.
13 Q. Sir, we see some additional handwriting -- other side, please. We
14 see some other handwriting in the top right corner of this document. Do
15 you recognise whose handwriting that is?
16 A. I cannot recognise the handwriting at this very moment, but I
17 assume it's Osman who checked things with the Personnel Service at the
18 Command of the 3rd Corps, and he established that this person was in that
19 unit, in the El Mujahedin Detachment.
20 Q. Sir, when you say you assume it's Osman, can you please tell us
21 his full name?
22 A. Osman Vlajcic.
23 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, this document -- perhaps if we could see the
24 full version of the document in both languages.
25 This document, sir, relates to an individual by the name of
1 Izudin Besic; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And I take it, sir, from that name, Mr. Besic is a Bosniak.
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. Can you tell us, sir, the procedure that was undertaken when you
6 received a document such as this, in terms of obtaining passports for
7 foreign travel? What steps, if any, did the Security Department of the
8 3rd Corps take upon receiving such documents?
9 A. There's several questions there, but allow me to say this,
10 ultimately: This is the first document that came to the Corps, the
11 3rd Corps, in this form. Because he says here permission is sought to
12 obtain a passport, well, maybe something else appeared, too, but we're
13 looking at this now. However, that is not practice. The 3rd Corps did
14 not issue passports. This is quite unclear. There's a question mark
16 I, myself, do not have an answer, why this document appeared. I
17 can assume that a soldier was sick and that perhaps certain problems were
18 encountered, in terms of the procedure of obtaining a passport, but it was
19 the State Security Service or, rather, the appropriate organ in the State
20 Security Service that issued passports, and, inter alia, a document was
21 required. When this person addresses them, then this corresponding organ
22 from the State Security Service would turn to us, and we would give them a
23 certificate once a check had been made in the Personnel Department as to
24 whether a certain person is a member or not. So the question really is
25 how this document appeared in the first place. I have no answer to that.
1 But the procedure with regard to issuing passports was quite different.
2 Another thing I'm wondering about in relation to this document,
3 this stamp of the Detachment El Mujahedin, I'm convinced, because this is
4 was under the Corps to have stamps made, and this stamp was prescribed, in
5 terms of form, through a certain order. It could not have had this kind
6 of content or this kind of image.
7 Q. Let me ask you, though, sir, because you just told us when -- and
8 this is on lines 19 through 22 of page 54:
9 "When this person addresses them, then this corresponding organ
10 from the State Security Service would turn to us ..."
11 This document you see on the screen before you, sir, is not from
12 the State Security Service, is it?
13 A. Yes, and it's abnormal that it should turn up with the security
14 organ, but I can't remember why it turned up there. And then I go into
15 the procedure of thinking about this, whether there was a misunderstanding
16 somewhere along the line, or perhaps the need to speed things up so that
17 passports were issued more expeditiously.
18 Q. Let me -- perhaps there's some confusion. Are you telling us,
19 sir, that this document that we see on the screen in front of us came from
20 the State Security Service?
21 A. No. It stems from the El Mujahedin Detachment, addressed to the
22 Military Security Department -- Services Department of the 3rd Corps.
23 Q. The department that you headed during this time period of this
25 A. Yes, yes, that's right.
1 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please now turn to Exhibit 772. Exhibit
3 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, do you recognise the document on the screen in
4 front of you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And whose signature appears on this document, sir? And if we
7 could go to page 2 in the English, please.
8 A. I see my signature.
9 Q. And, sir, what was the purpose of this document? And we can go
10 back to page 1 in the English, please.
11 A. The purpose of this document was to grant approval for passports
12 to be issued. In the upper left-hand corner, you see, and there is a
13 document they produced being invoked, and that's probably the previous
14 document, in terms of the number, and we say that we, in connection with
15 the document, we are hereby informing them that we agree that a member of
16 their unit, Izudin Besic, and then I can't see what it says, be issued a
18 MR. MUNDIS: Could we please zoom in on the top half of this
20 Q. I appreciate, Mr. Alihodzic, that this is not a very good copy. If
21 we could then scroll over to the right, please. Can you see to whom this
22 document is addressed?
23 A. The commander of the El Mujahedin Detachment.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
25 We'll endeavor to get the English translation of this document
2 Q. Now, sir, let me ask you this: Do you recall receiving one such
3 request concerning checks for purposes of issuing of passports, or was
4 there more than one such request? And I'm referring specifically to
5 requests from the El Mujahedin Detachment.
6 A. I said this was unusual and this was not the prescribed procedure
7 or behaviour, in terms of these problems, I mean, issuing documents.
8 There was an entirely different procedure in place, entirely different.
9 Q. But my question, sir, was: Was this the only such request you
10 received from the El Mujahedin Detachment or did you remember or do you
11 remember receiving similar requests from that detachment during the period
12 of time that you were the assistant commander for security in the
13 3rd Corps?
14 A. I can assure you categorically that this is one document, and I
15 don't think that another can turn up about granting approval, in terms of
16 passports being issued. I don't know how this ever appeared. I don't
17 know how my signature is there. I can assume -- I can speculate maybe
18 it's about the ill health of that particular soldier, and probably there
19 was some obstacle to be overcome in connection with the appropriate state
20 organ. And then due to haste, you know, overcoming obstacles, that sort
21 of thing, the prescribed time for the passport to be issued, maybe this
22 was a way of expediting the procedure in terms of having the passport
23 issued. I can only assume that in this case, but I can't remember any
24 other cases such as this one.
25 Q. Let me put a more direct question to you, sir. Do you ever
1 remember whether there were similar requests concerning foreign members of
2 the El Mujahedin Detachment?
3 A. No, I can't, I can't remember, but requests, I know. We're
4 talking about a document that is outside procedure, requests for documents
5 to be issued according to the established procedure by members of the
6 El Mujahid Detachment, well, foreigners, Afro-Asians, well, yeah, those
7 were made, because that's what it says here, this statement that you can
8 read in the last paragraph of this document, how these documents should be
9 handled, what are the responsibilities of the individual in question, what
10 are the responsibilities of the unit, and so on and so forth.
11 So this cooperation addressing the State Security Service or,
12 rather, the appropriate organ for public documents, for passports, that
13 sort of thing, to us what that meant is we were exercising control over
14 the presence of military personnel in Bosnia. Otherwise, they could have
15 bypassed us without that request, and then the soldiers would have been
16 able to travel unhampered and maybe something worse would have happened
17 than what actually happened, and that's why it was not within the
18 authority of the Military Security Service to grant any approvals to
19 members of the army without our consent, and the consent implied that the
20 soldier would go and speak to his commander, to his unit, about a certain
21 problem, "Sir, Commander, I'm sick, I have to go and receive treatment,"
22 and there are conventions that the commander grants or refuses this, and
23 he gives the green light for this soldier to go to the Security
24 Administration or whatever and get the appropriate papers issued.
25 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, I appreciate the difficulties here, particularly
1 when we're working in different languages, but let me ask you this
2 question one last time, sir.
3 Do you remember receiving any requests from the El Mujahedin
4 Detachment concerning requests for approval, in terms of issuing
5 passports? And this can be answered either "yes," "no," "I don't know,"
6 "I don't remember."
7 A. I know that passports were issued to members of the detachment,
8 the El Mujahedin Detachment, but not in the procedure of the Military
9 Security Service.
10 Q. My question, sir, is not whether the Military Security Service or
11 the 3rd Corps or the army issued the passports. My question is whether
12 you remember receiving any requests from the El Mujahedin Detachment
13 seeking approval for the issuance of passports to foreign members of that
14 detachment. "Yes," "no," "I don't know," "I don't remember"?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you very much, sir.
17 The Prosecution has no further questions for the witness at this
18 time, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Before the document gets off the
20 screen, I would just like to see the end of the document in the English,
22 Is this the end of the document in English?
23 Thank you very much.
24 Madam Vidovic.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't think it would
1 be a meaningful exercise to start now, because the document will take some
2 time appearing on our screens and until -- I think it's better to have the
3 break now, if I could.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
5 We'll then take a break and come back at half past 12.00.
6 Court adjourned.
7 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
10 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Alihodzic.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. I'll be examining you on behalf of General Delic's Defence. Most
14 of my answers -- most of my questions can be answered with a straight
15 "yes" or "no." I have many questions. It is vital that we finish today
16 because of your health concerns.
17 If there is any need for you to explain in greater detail, I'll be
18 glad to allow you to do just that, but, please, whenever you can, keep it
19 down to a straightforward "yes" or "no." That is the procedure that
20 cross-examination, as such, entails.
21 Also, please speak as slowly as possible. Each time after I
22 finish my question, please make a pause before you start your answer so
23 that everything gets recorded.
24 Do you understand?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. The Prosecutor asked you some questions about documents that
2 describe certain procedures to do with POWs. I'll be asking you about
3 that, too.
4 First of all, you will agree with me, won't you, that the Corps
5 SVB received copies of the international legal conventions known as the
6 Geneva Conventions that, among other things, talk about the treatment of
8 A. If that's a question, yes, I do remember that, and I know that
9 well, that the conventions existed. They came from the level of the
10 General Staff of the BH Army, the objective being to distribute them from
11 the lowest units in the General Staff, subordinate units to the
12 General Staff, and then these units were supposed to forward this down the
13 chain of command to the lowest-ranking units, and even the soldiers on the
14 ground had to be familiar with these.
15 Q. All right. So you forwarded these conventions to the
16 lower-ranking units, did you not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The Security Administration submitted instructions as far as the
19 treatment of POWs was concerned; right?
20 A. Yes, I remember that sort of document, too, and other documents
21 that were like it. This was an effort, at a time when the army was being
22 established, to carry out some essential tasks; among other things, to use
23 this method also to better train organs of the Military Security.
24 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Alihodzic. These explanations are
25 extremely helpful, but I simply don't have enough time. Please focus, if
1 you can, on my questions, "yes" or "no" whenever possible, please.
2 A. That's fine.
3 Q. All right. Instructions on how POWs were to be treated, this was
4 also something that you sent along down the chain of command to
5 lower-ranking units; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What about the combat orders of the 3rd Corps, did they not
8 regulate exactly how POWs were to be treated in the portion of the
9 document that had to do with security; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The commands of these lower-ranking units, subordinate units,
12 divisions and brigades, knew exactly what their responsibilities were and
13 what they were supposed to do when coming into contact with POWs; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The Security Administration requested that reports be submitted on
16 information to do with POWs; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please have Exhibit 580.
19 Q. You were shown this exhibit today by the OTP. Mr. Alihodzic,
20 let's not try -- let's try not to spend too much time on this. This is a
21 document produced by the 3rd Corps, the Security Service Department. The
22 date is the 22nd of July, 1995. Results of offensive activities in the
23 area of responsibility of the 35th Division. Today, you saw this
24 document, and you confirmed that this was your signature.
25 If we could please pull it up a little.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you remember that it was in relation to this document that we
3 had a discussion as to who it was delivered to; right?
4 A. Yes, I remember that.
5 Q. Please, Mr. Alihodzic, can you just look at the lower half of the
6 document. It can be seen in English as well. You agree that just about
7 where it says "delivered" and above the initials, we see this: "Produced
8 in duplicate"; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And in the document, there are a total of four addressees
11 mentioned; right?
12 A. Yes, right.
13 Q. All right. In other words, we have two copies being made of this
14 document. Whenever this is the case, one of these must always remain in
15 the archive of your service; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Therefore, just one of these two documents could have been
18 delivered to someone who was about in the field; right?
19 A. In the -- the latter half of the document, where it says
20 "delivered" and then circled, this certainly went to the Security
21 Administration, the command post that it had in Kakanj, I think.
22 Q. Fine. So two copies were made of this, and it could not possibly
23 have been delivered to four addressees, could it?
24 A. I would need documents -- I would need some hard evidence to
25 confirm that, but that is what the logic of this document seems to imply.
1 Q. Please, if you only have a mere two copies made of a certain
2 document, what does that mean, in terms of who it can be sent to and how
3 many addressees?
4 A. Well, that's what I'm trying to say. Two copies were made.
5 That's what it says.
6 Q. So how could it possibly have been forwarded to four different
7 addressees if there were only two copies to begin with?
8 A. Well, in order to ascertain that -- well, based on this,
9 obviously, this would have been impossible, yes.
10 Q. Be that as it may, sir, I just want you to keep this date in mind,
11 regardless of whether it was delivered to Sarajevo or Kakanj. But, first
12 of all, I want you to look at the beginning of this document.
13 Could we please take the English back to page 1.
14 You see this marking here. This is being delivered to the
15 General Staff in Kakanj by courier. You saw that, didn't you? Is there
16 anything here to indicate that the document was encrypted before it was
17 sent anywhere else?
18 A. The document, the way it's shown, there is nothing to confirm that
19 it was sent.
20 Q. In an encrypted form, you mean?
21 A. Yes, yes, that's right. There is absolutely nothing to indicate
22 that it was sent.
23 Q. Fine. Please just try to keep the date in mind, and now please
24 focus on the portion of the document that states that the El Mujahedin
25 Detachment were allowing no access. You will remember that this is
1 something that the document states, right, no access to POWs?
2 A. Yes, that's what it says.
3 Q. You saw the same thing being stated in E364, another document that
4 the Prosecutor was showing you today, which also stated that the
5 El Mujahedin were barring access to POWs. You remember looking at another
6 document that said the same thing; right?
7 A. Yes, I do remember.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine.
9 Your Honours, can we just look at this now, paragraph 2, second
10 sentence of paragraph 2. It reads:
11 "We have no information about the number of aggressor soldiers who
12 were wounded and killed. About 50 aggressor soldiers were taken prisoner,
13 11 of them Muslims."
14 Let me ask you something about this figure, 50 members of the
15 Republika Srpska Army. Did you ever receive any confirmation whatsoever
16 of what is stated here, to the fact that the El Mujahedin, in the month of
17 July, took 50 prisoners?
18 A. What I'm saying is this: This is a secondary document. It was
19 drafted based on another primary document which had arrived there as a
20 report or a note on work methodology and the application of appropriate
21 methods. In terms of its format, it was initial information. We had no
22 right to hold anything like that back. We just informed other people.
23 And our task, in relation to this particular piece of information and
24 other information - I'm just trying to use some time here to avoid
25 commenting later - to carry out operative investigations, to verify the
1 authenticity and reliability of any such information.
2 The same applies to this. Right away, we see here in these
3 documents, there's two doctors and one nurse. I know that we never
4 actually received confirmation that there was two doctors and one nurse.
5 I think there was a doctor and a nurse actually.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down, slow down. The interpreter is
7 struggling very hard to keep pace with you, sir. Can you just slow down
8 so that he can interpret?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine, Your Honour.
10 What I'm trying to say here is this: There will be final
11 information about the number of prisoners, but this figure here was never
12 confirmed, and that much is certain.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. Likewise, you will remember that the Prosecutor today showed you
15 E858, dated the 23rd of July, in which you also informed the Security
16 Administration, be it the one in Kakanj or the one in Sarajevo, no matter,
17 about POWs. You remember that, don't you?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. These same POWs?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now, Your Honours, could we
22 please put this document away.
23 I would like the witness to look at 859 now, Exhibit 859.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've seen it.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, it's another document that you saw today.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. Let's have another look. The date is the 25th of
4 July, 1995, and --
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. It talks about the results of interviews conducted with captured
7 aggressor soldiers. I think that today you confirmed that what we can see
8 on this document is your signature. Right? I don't think there's any
9 need to go back to that. Right?
10 A. Yes, yes, I do know that, because there are other versions of the
11 same document, this same document, but other versions, different headers,
12 details that ultimately don't really matter.
13 Q. Fair enough. Judging by the stamp, the document was received on
14 the 28th of July, 1996 -- 1995. My apologies, 1995.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And now could you please read the first sentence of this document?
17 A. "The security organs of the Military Security Service of the 35th
18 Division conducted interviews with captured aggressor soldiers and reached
19 the following conclusions and information: "The interview was conducted
21 And then a list of persons who were interviewed.
22 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, there is no way the interpreters can possibly keep
23 up with you. Slow down, please, if you can.
24 Just one thing. Do you agree that this document was produced as a
25 result of interviews conducted by organs of the Military Security Service
1 of the 35th Division with captured aggressor soldiers?
2 A. That's right. There was no other way, there was no other
3 possibility for a document like this to come about.
4 Q. Thank you. Let me remind you of this now. You remember looking
5 at two other documents, previous documents. I showed you one and the
6 Prosecutor showed you another, documents stating that the El Mujahedin
7 Detachment were barring access to POWs, including these three persons
8 mentioned here, Sikanic; Trivicevic, Velibor; and Guljevati, Igor. You
9 remember that, don't you?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, please, let's take this slowly. Can you look at
12 these pages slowly, one by one, page 1 to begin with?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Fine.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 2 now, please, both languages.
16 Can we move on to the next page, please.
17 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, we had two documents in which information was
18 forwarded to you, which you then passed along, to the effect that the
19 El Mujahedin Detachment were barring access to POWs. Do you agree that
20 what this document shows is this: The Military Security Service or,
21 rather, its organ, in actual fact, on the 25th of July, 1995, had, in
22 fact, access to these POWs?
23 A. Yes, it had access to POWs in this particular situation and to
24 these particular persons who they interviewed.
25 Q. Yes. In other words, bearing in mind -- do you agree that what we
1 can see here is a number of details that they obtained through those
3 A. Yes, yes, of course I agree with that. Yes, that's what the
4 interviews were for. That's why they were conducted, to collect
5 intelligence; right?
6 Q. Yes, yes, I know, Mr. Alihodzic, but, please, keep your answers
7 brief, to the extent that you can, please.
8 A. Sure.
9 Q. So on the face of this document, there is no mention whatsoever of
10 the fact that these people were encountering any further problems; the
11 35th Division is no longer reporting about the fact that the El Mujahid
12 Detachment were barring access; right?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. Likewise, they are not even informing you, through this document,
15 that they're holding them, right, in this document?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Please, this document also in this way does not inform you about
18 any kind of inhumane treatment towards prisoners of war; are you right?
19 A. You are right, Madam.
20 Q. Please, did you ever receive any information about inhumane
21 treatment of prisoners of war by this detachment? I'm referring to these
22 prisoners from the month of July.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Had you had such information, you would have recorded it; right?
25 A. By all means.
1 Q. You would have certainly taken measures that you were duty-bound
2 to take?
3 A. By all means. This is a very serious matter and it requires the
4 service to act.
5 Q. Acting would mean carrying out an investigation from pre-criminal
6 proceedings; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. This document can be put
10 Your Honour, at this moment I'd like the witness to have a look at
11 Exhibit 591.
12 Q. I'd like to ask you about a different topic that has to do with
13 the El Mujahedin Detachment. Please have a look at this document. This
14 is a document of the Security Department, dated the 22nd of April, 1995,
15 and it refers to a list of members of the El Mujahedin unit. You
16 mentioned lists today, lists of the unit. If you think that the document
17 is not clear and that you cannot read it, we can give you a hard copy, if
18 you wish.
19 First of all, I want to ask you whether this is your signature.
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Have you read the document?
22 A. Well, I'm trying, but I cannot read it in its entirety.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] You'll get a hard copy.
24 Q. Please, do you agree that it refers to the order of the commander
25 of the 3rd Corps to the El Mujahedin unit to stop taking soldiers in,
1 foreigners and our citizens?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What is also asked is information about possible admissions that
4 took place after the order of the corps commander?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The order was therefore in force at least on the 22nd of April,
7 1995, and if we look at the second paragraph of the document, it is
8 obvious that the order was issued earlier. So now my question to you is:
9 Do you remember -- since this is an important matter, can you remember
10 when the order was issued banning further admissions into the El Mujahedin
12 A. I didn't really understand you about this question. As for the
13 date, I just see "the 22nd of April, 1995" here.
14 Q. I'm going to read a paragraph out to you -- paragraph 2 to you
15 now. It says, please:
16 "If any new people were admitted, foreigners or Bosniaks, to this
17 unit after the order of the 3rd Corps commander, please provide the data
18 to the OSVB of the 3rd Corps."
19 A. Yes, yes, I understand.
20 Q. This second paragraph that I just quoted from says that before
21 this day, the 22nd of April, 1995, there was an order of the corps
22 commander that had to do with the ban on admissions of new members into
23 the unit. Can you remember when this order was issued or when you found
24 out about it, if you can answer that?
25 A. I cannot recall the date exactly, but I'm convinced and certain
1 that these written orders by the Corps Command were there, because such
2 matters did appear and they required a response. Even considerably
3 earlier, in 1993, when I was a brigade commander, I know that I initiated
4 that, this problem of the movement of soldiers from one unit to another.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Alihodzic.
6 Your Honour, could this document please be removed, unless you
7 have any questions.
8 Could you now have a look at D721, please.
9 Q. Before that, I just want to ask you, Mr. Alihodzic: Do you agree
10 that this document that you've seen just now indicates that the detachment
11 did not have accurate records of foreigners who were members of the unit?
12 You talked to us about that today.
13 A. We did not have accurate records, we at the Personnel Department
14 of the 3rd Corps, but the detachment of El Mujahedin did not have that,
15 either, on the members of that detachment, that is.
16 Q. All right. Mr. Alihodzic, do you agree -- well, you were not
17 there, so you don't know what kind of records they had; isn't that right?
18 A. That's right, that's right.
19 Q. Please, do you agree -- actually, I want to ask you something
20 different, that in the zone of responsibility of the 3rd Corps, there were
21 a lot of Arabs who did not belong to the detachment at all?
22 A. In the form of the existence of humanitarian organisations and
23 other, how shall I put this, other forms of their stay were there, apart
24 from the detachment, and there were quite a few, at that.
25 Q. Could you please have a look at this document now, D721. Do you
1 agree that this is a document of the military security organ of the
2 319th Brigade, dated the 13th of July, 1995? And I would like to ask you
3 to have a look at this stamp down here.
4 Do you agree that this is a document that was received at the
5 Department of the Military Security Service of the 3rd Corps on the 13th
6 of July, 1995?
7 A. I agree.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, could the document please be
9 scrolled up a bit so that the witness could see the beginning.
10 Q. Please, as you compare your signatures, it seems that this is your
11 signature below the handwritten note?
12 A. Yes, in the upper part near the heading. That's my signature, and
13 by the stamp is the signature of the security organ of the brigade.
14 Q. Therefore, it's my conclusion that you had this document in your
16 A. Yes. It was sent to the counter-intelligence organ as well, and
17 this was supposed to be a comprehensive piece of information.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, I hope -- well, you've had a look. Please read
19 the document to yourself, to yourself. And for the transcript, I'm going
20 to say that this is a report on contact with Zolja, a contact -- a person
21 who was a contact.
22 Do you see that the security organ of the 319th Brigade informs
23 about his communication with a contact concerning the presence of Arabs in
24 Zeljezno Polje?
25 A. I'm pleased to see this document. I can see that the security
1 organ has knowledge of the matter and has learned how to do his work
3 Q. Do you agree that there is a number of Arabs in the area of
4 Zeljezno Polje and there are others near Tesanj, that that's what the
5 document says, and that perhaps it's the Arabs who desecrated the Catholic
6 cemetery in Donja Golubinja, went there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You will agree with me that you learned that in the area of
9 Zeljezno Polje and Tesanj, there are some Arabs who are active, and
10 through the security organ of the 319th Brigade, you tried to gain some
11 information about them?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you agree that the document also says that these people from
14 Zeljezno Polje are desecrating Catholic graveyards?
15 A. I agree, because I do know about this area, anyway. It was
16 indicative in other security problems. This is not the only one.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document
18 please be given an exhibit number.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
20 please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 936.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please look at
24 document D730 now, please.
25 Q. Can you read the document?
1 A. It's hard to read. It would be a good thing --
2 Q. We have a hard copy. For the record, I would like to say that
3 this is information from the Security Service of the 3rd Corps, the 22nd
4 of July, 1995, and the title of the document is: "Desecration of the
5 Catholic cemetery - additional information."
6 A. Yes, I'm pleased to see this document, too, because it shows
7 continuity in the work of the military security organs.
8 Q. We see that Ibrahim Dzasim resides in the area of Zeljezno Polje?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. This person informed that Hamza and Dzafer desecrated the
11 cemetery, and Hamza went to the Republic of Croatia. Then in the document
12 you describe impeded cooperation with the Arabs. Nevertheless, according
13 to this document, you do have knowledge that the Catholic cemetery was
14 desecrated by Arabs who were active in Zeljezno Polje, not the
15 El Mujahedin Detachment; isn't that right?
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. You will agree with me that a lot of initial knowledge, in terms
18 of which members of the detachment were blamed, this knowledge was changed
19 later, to the effect that other Arabs were the perpetrators, as is the
20 case here?
21 A. Yes, that's right. I don't have time to go into all of that now,
22 but it is a fact, what you are saying now.
23 Q. As for this extended knowledge, you submitted that to the Security
24 Administration as well; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. In order for us here to get the right picture about the knowledge
2 that the Security Administration had, we would have to have a look at the
3 initial document you sent and then we would have to search the archives
4 and find what your further knowledge was, so that we would obtain
5 information as to what kind of knowledge, concerning a certain problem
6 that you initially informed about, the Security Administration actually
8 A. That's right, that's right, because this initial information, if
9 it did not have an end, if measures were not taken ultimately, then the
10 security organs were duty-bound to document it further. It had to be
11 confirmed and certain measures had to be taken either through the
12 judiciary or through the RiK.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document please be
14 assigned a number.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It will be assigned a number. Let me just ask a
17 I see, on the B/C/S version, that now the address -- three
18 addressees are circled. What does that mean, Witness?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That means that this document was
20 sent to the administration of the General Staff, to the forward command
21 post, to the commander in Orahovac, and that it stayed in the archives of
22 the Military Security Service of the 3rd Corps. And what was not
23 encircled here, most probably, most probably, means that this document was
24 sent to the forward command post in Kakanj by a courier. As for the ones
25 with circles, were sent by Paket communication through the Communications
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we just have a look --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second. I'm still asking questions.
4 Now, I thought you said this morning, in answer to a question by
5 Judge Lattanzi, that the individual copy that you sent to a specific
6 recipient is the one that is circled, not one common copy being circled
7 for all of the recipients.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this must have been an
9 omission on the part of the operations man who was putting the circles
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It doesn't look like an omission. It looks like a
12 commission, because now there are three circles instead of one, so
13 something has been committed here, not omitted, sir.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really do not have an answer,
15 Your Honour, except --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. Yes, except? Except what, sir?
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he did not say that. I
18 did not hear the witness say "Osim."
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, we did hear the witness say
20 "osim," "except."
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, fine. Anyway, now, in response to a question
22 by Madam Vidovic, you conceded that it is impossible to deliver four
23 copies to four different recipients when there are only two copies. You
24 remember that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, on this document, two copies were made. How
2 do you get delivery to three people?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really do not have an answer to
4 that question.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 Yes, Madam Vidovic, you may proceed.
7 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
8 exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 937.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. And now about the information that you spoke of. For the most
13 part, you submitted to the Security Administration information, regardless
14 of whether we are talking about the Kakanj branch or the Sarajevo branch.
15 You would obtain information based on operative knowledge and results;
17 A. Yes, by all means. There was no other way. We used our operative
18 work to obtain information, and we submitted this information as you
20 Q. Very well. Information that was passed along to you from
21 lower-ranking units would first be checked, and sometimes they would prove
22 to be inaccurate; right?
23 A. Yes, that's right. All the security organs stopped right there
24 and did not pursue it any further, and then we had to prompt them to keep
25 at it. They would forget. But they investigated, yes.
1 Q. You would agree that sometimes rumour or hearsay would be included
2 in what was termed "information"; right?
3 A. Yes, that's how the whole war started, hearsay, rumours,
4 propaganda, insinuations. This war, itself, was propaganda. The life of
5 those, what shall I call them, individuals boiled down to just that and no
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Can the witness now please be shown Exhibit 764. Thank you.
9 Just for the record, this is a document produced by the 3rd Corps
10 Command, dated the 7th of July, 1995.
11 Q. You see what it says over there: "Code name: White Hen," and
12 then there is what I believe is a stamp of the 3rd Corps Command, Security
13 Service Department. You see that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Could we pull this
16 document down a little, or pull it up, rather, so we can see the
17 handwritten portion.
18 Q. Do you recognise anything there?
19 A. I recognise my handwriting. I signed this or, rather, addressed
20 it to Redzo Camdzic for him to write up a report, and that he was to
21 familiarise the division commander with this so that further measures
22 could be ordered.
23 Q. Fine, fine. So you made a suggestion to the commander of the
24 35th Division to take measures; right?
25 A. Right.
1 Q. All right. Look at this document now, please. It's about an
2 incident in relation to a person named "Miro Huncek," an ethnic Croat.
3 Please have a look, read it.
4 Before I ask you anything about the incident itself, you agree
5 that this is a typical textbook example of a primary document?
6 A. Indeed. You can see that if you look at the header. The
7 explanation implies that this is page 2, and page 1 was in a particular
8 set format. It had the methodology shown right there and the equipment
9 actually used. This is a document that was produced in the unit. If you
10 look at the explanation, I put it somewhere in the identification and work
11 methodology governing the work of the security organs of military
13 Q. All right. Let me ask you this: So this is a primary document.
14 You used this to base another document on in order to spread information,
15 and that is then a secondary document; right?
16 A. Yes, that's exactly right.
17 Q. Okay. You agree that this document says that members of the
18 El Mujahedin unit arrived at the defence line and that not a single name
19 is mentioned?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. About midway down the page, there is a reference to a Mujahedin
22 asking about Miro, a Croat, "Where is he? I want to slit his throat." Can
23 you see that?
24 A. Yes, I see that's what the document says.
25 Q. And then it goes on to state that the platoon commander gave a
1 hint to Huncek to get out of there, which he did. And then please look at
3 "News spread along the line that members of the El Mujahedin unit
4 were on their way there and that they were in the mood to slit the throats
5 of all non-Muslims there."
6 And then it goes on to say:
7 "After these incidents, rumours started to spread around town that
8 there was no point in the Croats and the remaining Serbs going to the
9 defence lines because allegedly members of the El Mujahedin unit would
10 slit their throats, no matter if they were somewhere along the defence
11 line or in their homes."
12 All right. So you remember that, in essence, this document shows
13 that a threat was made to a single Croat and certainly not -- this is a
14 primary document, and what it shows is that this threat was made to a
15 single Croat and not to all Croats and Serbs, not by any stretch of the
16 imagination; right?
17 A. Yes, yes, you're 100 per cent right, but even this one, even that
18 is very important. We believe this to be very important. That's why we
19 wrote it up like this. That's why we looked into it. That's why we
20 documented the whole incident. And then later there was operative work
21 being done on this case, and then we investigated and so on and so forth.
22 Q. All right, thank you very much. So do you agree that even this
23 one incident, this one threat being made to this one Croat, evolved in
24 such a way that the rumour eventually spread that they were making threats
25 to all Croats and Serbs; right?
1 A. Yes, that's certainly true. I've no time here to explain the
2 mission or the presence of international players in Bosnia-Herzegovina at
3 the time. This is propaganda, it's a war of propaganda, and this sort of
4 propaganda would be spread across this area and other areas where they
5 were staying at the time.
6 Q. All right. Another thing that happened is that rumours were
7 circulating around town that threats were being made. That is the gist of
8 this document; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. So you've just told us that you investigated this
11 particular incident. What I'm trying to ask you is this --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down, Madam Vidovic. Slow down,
13 Madam Vidovic.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Apologies.
15 Q. Witness, you told us that you investigated this incident; right?
16 Do you agree that you informed the Military Security Administration in
17 Sarajevo about this investigation, wherever they happened to be, Military
18 Security Administration, anyway?
19 A. I don't see based on this that this was actually done, but I'm
20 certain that this was part of operative reporting, be it in the way of a
21 summary, reports, or some other way of informing the Security
22 Administration, whatever, 100 per cent certain.
23 Q. All right. I'm pressing on with the documents. I'm trying to ask
24 you the following thing: When you say --
25 A. It's this particular incident that I have in mind.
1 Q. Please, Witness, I asked you and you said you investigated this
2 incident, so I'm asking you: What about the results? Did you inform the
3 Military Security Administration in Sarajevo about the results of this
5 A. Yes, we must have passed that sort of information along to them.
6 I'm certain of that.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 All right, Your Honours, we can put this document away now, and
9 we'll soon be looking at a different one.
10 D648, please. For the record, this is an official note of the
11 military security organ of the 35th Division, and the date is the 5th of
12 July, 1995. This note was sent to the 3rd Corps Command, Military
13 Security Department:
14 Witness -- could this document be pulled down so we can see the
15 bottom half of the document.
16 Q. Witness, you agree that this document was received by the Security
17 Service of the 3rd Corps?
18 A. Yes, you can see that square stamp.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Can we go to page 2,
20 please. Let me just see.
21 While we're still on page 1, Your Honours -- all right, let's have
22 a look.
23 Q. Fikret Skejic, was he a member of your service?
24 A. Indeed, he was.
25 Q. In the 35th Division?
1 A. Yes, as a matter of fact, in the 35th Division. This implies this
2 was in a functional sense.
3 Q. A member of the security service?
4 A. Yes, a member of the Security Service of the 3rd Corps, or,
5 rather, with certain involvement in the 35th Division; right?
6 Q. Yes.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Can we please go back to page 1 now, page 1 of the Bosnian.
9 Q. Can you please look at paragraph 2, and you will see a description
10 there of that same incident to do with Miro Huncek. You see that; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. In order to save time, I'll quote a small portion of this
13 document to you. It starts with: "On that occasion ..."
14 "On that occasion, Miro told the El Mujahid member since the first
15 day of aggression --"
16 There's probably something missing:
17 " ... who responded that he was not familiar with that incident
18 and that if he had been properly informed, he would never have called him
19 out and would never have requested that his throat be slit. Other
20 non-Muslim persons were also threatened by this phenomenon."
21 What I'm trying to ask you is this: Do you remember that this
22 encounter between Miro Huncek and this unknown person, who appeared to be
23 a member of the El Mujahid unit, was described in entirely different
25 A. Yes, no likeness at all, different as chalk and cheese.
1 Q. If he'd known he was a member of the army, he would never have
2 made any threats at all, would he?
3 A. Yes, I think the word was probably dropped, who had been a member
4 of the BH Army from day 1, that was probably -- that qualification was
5 dropped in the first version, the first account of this incident.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
7 Your Honours, could we have a number for this document.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
9 please be given an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 938.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like you, sir, to look at
13 two different documents now about the same subject matter. It's about
14 information -- it's about work methods.
15 E934, please, Exhibit -- Exhibit 934.
16 Q. Witness, you agree that this is information produced by the 3rd
17 Corps, Security Service Department. The date is the 26th of May, 1995,
18 and this has to do with the tearing down grave slabs in Zavidovici
19 Municipality, or tombstones. You commented on this document; right?
20 A. Yes, I remember that.
21 Q. You were asked by the Judge, "Why did you not correct what you
22 believed to be inaccurate in that document," and your answer was something
23 along the lines -- well, you didn't finish answering. You said something
24 along the lines of, "I had 150." You remember saying that? What, in
25 actual fact, were you trying to say?
1 A. I wanted to say that there were 151, to be quite accurate,
2 security organs who would each write up a single note, a one- or two-page
3 note, or daily combat reports, a document running into 300 or so pages,
4 and this took some time to read. And, above all, one needed to
5 prioritise, and my priorities were foisted on me as a member of the army,
6 as a private person who stood up to defend this country. And in the third
7 place only, me, as the chief of the Military Security Service, and
8 prioritise a certain task, and maybe at that point in time - and right now
9 I don't have the operative documentation to say what on that particular
10 day or over those days, was such a burning issue, what the situation
11 happened to be across the area or in the area of responsibility of the
12 Corps, specifically.
13 Q. Be that as it may, Witness, do you agree that you issued orders
14 for something that wasn't clear, to be further investigated; right?
15 A. It's not that I issued orders. This was an ongoing commitment or
16 responsibility. Whoever happened to see me from that security organ, the
17 terminology, the methodology, they knew that they would get their knuckles
18 rapped every time. They had to keep at it. They had to train themselves,
19 because they had never been properly trained. They had not been properly
20 educated to perform this sort of activity, which was a very serious kind
21 of activity. But as a human being, I'm deeply satisfied that they managed
22 to cover all the security problems, to put it that way, all the security
23 problems that were later to be verified, confirmed, and so on and so
24 forth. And this is something that I know about, and my evidence is that
25 was precisely what we did.
1 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. It is for your sake that I'm trying
2 to wrap this up as quickly as possible, so, please, if you can keep your
3 answers down to a simple "yes" or "no" whenever possible, or as brief as
5 The purpose of my question was the last thing you said. Okay, so
6 this was initial information that you pursued, and then you passed such
7 information along to the Military Security Administration; am I --
8 A. Yes, yes, that's right, that's right.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Exhibit 666, please. The
10 date is the 21st of June, 1995.
11 Q. You see that; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Can we go to page 2 of
14 this document, please. This is page 4 in the English.
15 Q. Do you recognise the signature there, sir?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is it yours?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Okay. Could we please go back to
20 page 1 now.
21 Q. Do you see what it says, the handwritten note: "Kakanj"?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In the Bosnian as well as for the English -- oh, yeah, it's right
24 there. Fine.
25 Witness, the handwritten note right there, the handwritten note,
1 you see that; right?
2 A. Yes, yes, I see it.
3 Q. You recognise the handwriting, don't you?
4 A. No, as a matter of fact, I don't.
5 Q. Be that as it may, I'm going to ask you a question about the
6 principle espoused here. It reads:
7 "Make sure that information on this unit is not used outside the
9 That's what it says. Can you please elucidate? What exactly does
10 that note mean? What could that possibly mean? What sort of instructions
11 are these?
12 A. This is a comment that was probably added by an organ or, rather,
13 in the Security Administration.
14 Q. Yes, but what did it mean?
15 A. Well, what I should really do here is evaluate the need for this
16 and other such information to not be communicated to members of the army
17 outside the service, which doesn't mean that, in operative terms, this was
18 not, in fact, done.
19 Q. Does -- should I take your answer to mean that the instruction was
20 really about these instructions or these, rather, details; this
21 information was not to be used outside the service but just inside the
23 A. Yes, that precisely is the purpose. Someone was probably
24 prompted. Maybe it wasn't about this particular case. Maybe there were
25 other situations where attention needed to be drawn to this. Protecting,
1 protecting, conspiratorially.
2 Q. Okay. This is obviously what it's saying, that no information
3 should be used anywhere outside the service, meaning the Military Security
4 Service; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please put this document
7 away, Your Honours.
8 Could the witness please have a look at Exhibit 784.
9 Could we now just show page 2 to the witness, the last page, that
10 is, to establish whose signature is on the document.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is my signature.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back to page 1 of the
13 Bosnian version.
14 Q. Witness, in relation to this document, I'm just interested in this
15 note. You see, there is a date down there. First on the note -- on the
16 document, it says: "Use only in operative work. Do not use the
17 intelligence outside the service." And that is underlined?
18 A. Yes, that is what is written there.
19 Q. The date is the 23rd of June, 1995. Witness, do you recognise the
20 initials down there? Do you know whose initials these are?
21 A. I really don't know whose initials these are, but it only could
22 have been initialled by a person in the Security Administration.
23 Q. Do you agree that over here it also says: "Do not use
24 intelligence outside the service"?
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. Also, it says: "Use exclusively in operative work"?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. Such notes mean that this should not be submitted to anyone
4 outside the Security Service?
5 A. Yes, that would mean that, until information is confirmed,
6 extended and so on. But as for this document, it means that this
7 commander was not familiar with it.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Could this document
9 please be removed now.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I want to just ask one or two questions.
11 There's something a little surprising to me about this document.
12 It was written on the 22nd of June. It was received at the General Staff,
13 Military Security office, on the 24th. Somewhere in between, on the 23rd,
14 a note is made on it. Now, unfortunately, the witness says he does not
15 know who made this note, and it becomes important to know where it was on
16 that date. Does it mean it went with this note from where it was being
17 sent, the note of the 23rd?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document was
19 written on the 22nd, and it means that it was sent on that day to the
20 Security Administration. And, really, there is this illogical thing, that
21 it was received on the 24th, and then this content referring to the 23rd.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: So it -- it couldn't have been sent on the 22nd if
23 something was done on it on the 23rd, before it reached its destination.
24 It can only mean that it was either sent -- it was written on the 22nd,
25 and on the 23rd somebody made this note before it was sent off?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: But your proposition is impossible, to suggest that
3 it was sent on the 22nd and received on the 24th, and somewhere in
4 between, somebody wrote on it, unless it was not sent in an envelope.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, could I just see the
6 signature? Could the document be scrolled up a bit more?
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's on the next page.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] See.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's your signature, sir?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is my signature.
11 Now could you return the document back there?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you don't know who made the handwritten note?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who wrote that.
14 Now, I do apologise. Just one more detail. Where those circles
15 were put as to where the document was submitted, in order to try to
16 answer, the lower left-hand corner, please.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go to it.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The lower left-hand corner, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: No circle for addressees.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, yes.
21 I am now reverting to logic. It seems logical that it was in an
22 envelope and sent to the operations officer at the forward command post in
23 Kakanj, that he received it, initialled it on the 23rd, and that
24 subsequently he gave it to the man in analysis to record it, because the
25 question is when the document arrived, at what time during the night, and
1 whether all the people in the service were at their respective positions.
2 However, the real answer to that question can only be given by the
3 gentleman from the Security Administration.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You accept that you are
5 speculating. Thank you.
6 Yes, Madam Vidovic, you can proceed.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This document can be removed,
8 Your Honour.
9 Could we now have a look at document D725, please.
10 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, could you please have a look at this document. It
11 has to do with taking measures, certain measures. The document is
12 entitled "Proposal." The date is the 6th of March, 1995, Zenica.
13 So could we please go to the second page of the English version,
14 and could the witness see the signature.
15 Witness, can you see this? This is a proposal to take certain
17 Could the document please be scrolled up a bit. That's right,
18 thank you.
19 It says here:
20 "Taking POPO and TK."
21 Do you remember this document, Witness?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Could you explain to us what this is, "POPO" and "TK"?
24 A. "PO" and then this other "PO," it is "Previous Operative
25 Processing." That means that this person was a suspect from earlier on,
1 and in order for more operative work to be done in a proper way, we are
2 asking the Security Administration to act on this, and we are suggesting
3 that that person's telephone be listened in to and other measures taken.
4 Q. Very well, thank you. I do apologise. Witness, could you please
5 have a look at the second paragraph in this letter now, the second
6 paragraph underneath "Proposal"?
7 A. Well, a larger group of individuals had been identified. Is that
8 what you're talking about?
9 Q. Let me ask you about that. Do you agree that activities of the
10 El Mujahedin Detachment, according to your proposal, are being linked to
11 the activity of foreign intelligence agencies?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. You mention in your proposal that Mujahedin are coming through
14 various points in European countries and then to the Republic of Croatia,
15 where they're ultimately selected and then sent on to the Republic of
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. You also say that from time to time they use UN IDs?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. You will agree with me that the essence of this document is that
21 the El Mujahedin is acting on behalf of foreign intelligence agencies, and
22 that is why you're asking for measures to be taken?
23 A. Certainly, that is reasonable doubt, and it is to be confirmed,
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Your Honours, could this
1 document please be assigned an exhibit number.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one question in relation to
4 this document, just one more, please.
5 Q. You will agree that the Security Administration of the General
6 Staff accepted your security and proposed to your commander -- or, rad,
7 rather, asked the commander of the General Staff to use special methods
8 and resources that you suggest in this request?
9 A. I don't see what the chief of the Security Administration wrote up
10 here, but since this processing did exist and it could not have taken
11 place without a report and other documents, this is just one of the
12 prescribed documents in applying methods and resources, and I am answering
13 your question in the affirmative.
14 Q. What will follow after that is the Vranduk operative action; is
15 that right?
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the document be
18 assigned an exhibit number, and I think it's now time for the break.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
20 please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 939.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 May I just confirm. I was approached by the Legal Officer in
24 Chambers that there's a desire to finish with this witness and that maybe
25 we could sit from 3.00 to half past 4.00.
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm told it's confirmed, so we will sit at 3.00.
3 Court adjourned, and come back at 3.00.
4 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.45 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 3.00 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Before the break, Witness, we mentioned the Vranduk action.
9 Your Honours, can we have Exhibit 693 now. 693 is under seal.
10 Therefore, may we please move into private session.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 6501-6504 redacted. Private session
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, this is actually
17 Exhibit 933. That is the exhibit number, I believe. This is information
18 produced by the Military Security Administration. The date is the 17th of
19 May, 1995.
20 Q. So, Witness, have a look, please.
21 A. I have.
22 Q. It's got your name on it, doesn't it?
23 A. I can't quite see.
24 Q. I believe you've seen this document already today. It was shown
25 to you by the OTP, and I want to ask you a question.
1 A. The header and everything else that this report comprises belongs
2 to the Military Security Department of the 3rd Corps.
3 Q. Fine. Could you please look at the first two paragraphs, in that
4 case, the first two paragraphs of this document.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please zoom in in such a way
6 as for us to be able to see the first two paragraphs. Thank you.
7 Your Honours, it's the first two paragraphs on this page. Right.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it correct to say, just for the record, to
9 correct what was said a little earlier, that it is dated the 10th of May,
10 1995, and not the 17th?
11 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there's a different
13 date at the top. If we could please scroll down so that we get to see
14 that portion. It's actually a document dated the 17th.
15 Can we please go back to the first page in the English as well.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You see, Madam Vidovic, what happened is you first
17 called P2083, and then you said actually it's Exhibit 933. I also thought
18 P2083 was dated the 17th, but Exhibit 933 is definitely dated the 10th.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in that case I would
20 prefer to be looking at 2083, PT2083, right now, and you have my
21 apologies. And you have my apologies. The document is very similar. My
22 apologies. That's the one.
23 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, can you see that?
24 A. Yes, yes, yes, the document.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine. Can we please scroll down to
1 the very end of this document, and then the next page in English, page 2.
2 Q. Can you please look closely and tell me if you're familiar with
3 the substance of this document?
4 A. Indeed, I am.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine, fine. Can we take the English
6 back to page 1.
7 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, can you please look at the first two short
8 paragraphs, the first two. You agree, don't you, that here you convey
9 information or register information, whichever way you like? This was
10 probably a phone conversation that was intercepted, and you obtained
11 information about contact between Abu Maali and the Efendi Alilovic?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Likewise, Alilovic requested the detachment commander to take the
14 Zenica mufti, Halil Mehtic?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. The document also suggests that visits are being arranged. Can
17 you tell us, what is "efendi"? Efendi, do you agree with me, is an
18 Islamic religious official; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The Zenica mufti, this is the highest Islamic religious title in
21 the area; right?
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. I'm talking about the Zenica area.
24 A. Yes, and further afield as well.
25 Q. Ah, further afield too. This is not just the Zenica area, this is
1 the Zenica --
2 A. There is a certain amount of overlap between the two areas.
3 Q. So you agree that you had certain information on contacts between
4 the platoon commander, contacts of this kind, and the Zenica mufti?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Let me go back to the issue of the El Mujahedin Detachment. Do
7 you agree with me that you had a lot of information like this that
8 indicated that there were links between the detachment, on the one hand,
9 and individual members of the Islamic religious community, high-ranking
10 ones; you agree with that, don't you?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Do you not agree, then, that this made the entire problem a very
13 complex one to solve?
14 A. Yes, I do agree.
15 Q. Witness, would I be right in stating that here was a person or an
16 institution who, in the Zenica area, enjoyed the support of high-ranking
17 Islamic leaders? This support was enormous because that meant all the
18 people were behind this person, then; right?
19 A. Yes, I agree, you're right. It's about all the details that I
20 spoke of. It's about how those contacts worked and how the whole thing
21 functioned, inter-marrying, that kind of thing. That constituted a huge
23 Q. Let's leave these mixed marriages aside for the time being, sir.
24 I'm talking about the support they received from the highest-ranking
25 leaders of the Muslim community, religious officials. That's what I'm
1 saying, their support to the detachment.
2 A. Yes, that's true.
3 Q. Do you agree that the conditions being what they were, any direct
4 clashes with the detachment would have driven a rift among the -- created
5 a rift among the Bosnian people, Bosnian people of Central Bosnia?
6 A. Yes, and I've stated that myself on a number of different
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have a
9 number for this document.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
11 please be given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 940.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now look at D726,
16 This is an information of the Military Security Department of the
17 7th of July [as interpreted], 1995, and it calls the security -- it's
18 called: "The security aspects of the movements and presence of foreigners
19 and representatives of humanitarian organisations in Zenica municipality."
20 And if we can take a look at the last page of this document where
21 the stamp is, or rather, not the stamp, but the signature, the last page
22 of the document where the signature should be, in English also, please.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
24 MR. MUNDIS: I simply note for the transcript, I don't know if
25 this was an interpretation error, line 10, page 105 makes reference to the
1 7th of July, and I believe the document is dated the 7th of June.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I did say "June." Thank
4 you, my learned friend.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You did, ma'am. It's the transcript, itself.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Witness, please, do you recognise this document? Is it your
9 A. Yes, it's information signed by me. It was created in the
10 Military Security Service, and Osman Vlajcic was the person who dealt with
11 this material.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we go back to page
13 1, both in English and B/C/S, please.
14 Q. Could you first look at the introductory part, where it says:
15 "On the 24th of May, 1995, a meeting was held attended by
16 representatives of civilian authorities, representatives of the Party of
17 Democratic Action and the Islamic religious community."
18 Do you see that?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Now please look at paragraph 4. It's a little longer.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And could we scroll down in English
22 so that we can see the paragraph starting with the words: "The common
23 assessment ..." Or: "The joint assessment ..." Can we scroll up a
24 little bit? And it continues on the next page. It's: "Everyone
25 agreed ..."
1 Q. Could you read this, Witness, paragraph 4?
2 A. Yes. "Everyone agreed that ..." or "It was agreed that..."
3 Q. No, I thought could you read it silently to yourself, Witness,
5 A. I've read it.
6 Q. Do you agree that the security aspect of the movement and sojourn
7 of foreigners and humanitarian organisations was considered?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And everyone agreed that there is non-application of the existing
10 legal provisions in relation to Arabs; is this correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then there are opinions expressed that documents are being
13 issued too easily, allowing these people to stay in Bosnia?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And the lack of appropriate inspection after approvals have been
16 issued was mentioned, as to whether these persons were complying with the
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, all the problems mentioned here, these are problems having to
20 do with lack of compliance with the laws and regulations, with the
21 legislation; the civilian authorities were not complying with regulations
22 when it came to Arabs?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. So the organs mentioned here are municipal civilian authorities
25 which were in charge of issuing permits and inspecting the compliance with
2 A. Yes, the municipal authorities and the military district. These
3 were the people who were in the government.
4 Q. You said "military district"? It says "military" in the -- what
5 did you say?
6 A. Districts, they were districts, a higher form of local
7 self-government higher than municipalities. That's the kind of district I
8 was referring to.
9 Q. So these were civilian authorities?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Well, now they're at cantonal rank, they are higher-level
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, please take a look at the fifth paragraph from the top. I'll
15 quote just one sentence:
16 "It was observed that in cases where the competent organ reacts to
17 such occurrences, there is no appropriate reaction by the next competent
18 organ, the next higher-up organ?"
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. That's paragraph 2 in the English version, Your Honours.
21 So when it came to the problem of the Arab factor in
22 Central Bosnia, do you agree that there was a major problem, in that the
23 civilian authorities were giving major support to the Arabs?
24 A. Yes, certainly.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Your Honours, could this document be admitted into evidence.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
3 please be given an exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 941.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to move on now to a
7 different topic.
8 Could the witness see D728, please.
9 Q. Witness, for the record, this is information from the Security
10 Department of the 3rd Corps. It's dated the 29th of July, 1995, and it
11 refers to criminal reports filed against members of the 328th Mountain
12 Brigade in the time period from the 13th to the 21st of July, 1995.
13 Could we please look at page 2 of the document, both in B/C/S and
15 Mr. Alihodzic, did you sign reports such as this one?
16 A. Yes, yes, I did.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Can we go back to page
18 1, please.
19 Q. These are criminal reports pertaining to only one brigade, and
20 please look at the first paragraph in this document. In a very brief
21 period of time, only eight days, it appears, nine criminal reports were
23 A. Ten.
24 Q. Ten, against ten members of the 328th Mountain Brigade?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Nine of whom or nine of which were for desertion. And now I would
2 like to ask you the following in connection with this: Do you agree that
3 this document shows that the 3rd Corps at this time had major problems
4 with people acting on their own initiative, of their own will, simply
6 A. Yes, I agree. I can give you numbers. It would pertain to up to
7 70 per cent of the Corps members.
8 Q. In what period?
9 A. Well, 700 to 800 men were being sought after in the period while I
10 was there. That's while I was there.
11 Q. It would appear from this that the 328th Brigade was not a
12 highly-disciplined brigade?
13 A. Certainly.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to tender this
15 document into evidence.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: D728 is admitted into evidence. May it please be
17 given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 942.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness now
21 look at D729, please.
22 This is information sent from the Military Security Service
23 Administration, dated the 10th of April, 1995, submitted to the chiefs of
24 the military security services of the Corps, including the 3rd Corps. At
25 that time, you were at the head of the 3rd Corps; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Could we please look at
3 the title page of the document.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] You will agree that it refers to
6 some typical negative occurrences in the army units in March 1995 and that
7 this is sent for the information of the Military Security Service in the
8 Corps so that they can take preventive measures.
9 And now let's look at page 2 both in English and the B/C/S,
11 Q. Witness, please look at the document and look at the second
12 paragraph, describing these typical negative occurrences, and it
13 enumerates failure to report for duty by a large number of soldiers on one
14 and the same day. And then if you look at the next paragraph, it
15 describes willful abandonment of positions in certain units. And could
16 you please look at the third page of the document, in English as well as
17 B/C/S. Look at the last paragraph in the Bosnian version, please, which
18 mentions refusal to obey orders, and it says that an entire battalion of
19 the 1st Corps refused to obey an order issued by the 1st Corps commander?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And could we look at the next page
22 of the document, please. In English, we can keep the same page.
23 Q. Look at where it describes the situation in the 115th Brigade.
24 In English, it's the third paragraph, Your Honour, where it
25 describes the situation in the 155th Brigade, and it says that out of 280
1 soldiers, not even 156 turned up for the lineup, and the --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
3 MR. MUNDIS: We would object on relevance grounds. These units
4 are all in the 1st Corps. I fail to see how they relate to this case and
5 how this witness would be in a position to comment upon these statistics
6 or numbers with respect to the 1st Corps.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all,
9 General Delic is not indicted as the 3rd Corps commander, and he is not
10 being held responsible only for that. He is being held responsible as a
11 commander of the General Staff. The document is relevant because I wish
12 to demonstrate the sort of problems that General Delic and the General
13 Staff were struggling with at the time. That's why it's relevant.
14 As to how this particular witness can comment on it, this witness
15 has just confirmed that he received this document, and I wish to know
16 whether he's aware of these problems.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm halfway with you, I'm halfway with him. I'll
18 tell you why.
19 I hear what you say, that General Delic is charged in his capacity
20 as a commander of the Army and not of the Corps. However, he's charged
21 specifically with crimes committed within the 3rd Corps. So to that
22 extent, I wish I could split myself.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may add, the
24 Prosecutor cannot say that Commander Delic was supposed to deal only with
25 problems of the 3rd Corps in 1995. I'm trying to establish what the
1 priorities of General Delic were, as a commander of the Main Staff.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I will overrule the objection. You agree?
3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I wanted to add that I fully
4 agree. If we look at the efficiency of the control, then that could be
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Witness, could you now please look at the last paragraph in the
8 Bosnian version on this page, and that's the next paragraph in the English
9 version, which says that that over the past months, suicides were
10 registered in some units, and then it says that one soldier of the
11 3rd Corps killed a commander. So you know of events not only in your own
12 corps but in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time. Were you aware
13 of such incidents?
14 A. I knew about such incidents from at least two sources or, rather,
15 three, three sources. One source was the chain of reporting in the
16 Military Security Service to the Security Service Administration, and then
17 the administration would send information back to us through their
18 bulletins. And, furthermore, some of these units in the 1st Corps were
19 sometimes inside the area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps. When
20 Sarajevo was under siege, we assisted each other with logistics and so on.
21 And the fourth source was in contacts with the security chief of their
23 Q. Thank you, Witness. The problems described here, were these
24 problems similar to the ones that existed in your corps?
25 A. Yes, these were major problems. There were about 35.000 men, and
1 of these, about 800 to 1.000 were being sought because they had abandoned
2 their positions.
3 Q. And there were a lot of problems like this all over Bosnia?
4 A. Yes, that's correct. Because human resources were being used to
5 search for these men, the defence lines were not manned properly. This
6 was reflected in morale and the combat readiness of the units.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Your Honour, I wish to tender this document.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Document 729 is admitted into evidence. May it
10 please be given an exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 943.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 2415, please, document P2415.
14 Q. Mr. Alihodzic, this is a document from the Security Services
15 Centre based in Zenica. The date is the 18th of September, 1995, and it
16 was sent to "The 3rd Corps Command, Military Security Department. Chief
17 of CSB, Sefik Dzaferovic."
18 You see that down there, don't you? At this time, you were the
19 still with the Corps, weren't you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What about the chief of CSB, Mr. Dzaferovic, was he head of the
22 CSB at the time still?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. Do you remember that you received a report providing a
25 list of incidents perpetrated by members of the 3rd Corps, between January
1 and August 1995?
2 A. By all means. Security-related issues were sent through the
3 commander to the security organ.
4 Q. So you've seen this document?
5 A. I actually have this document in my possession.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please now
7 look at page 2 in both the B/C/S and the English. Thank you.
8 This document contains a list of incidents caused by 3rd Corps
9 members. The first municipality listed is Zavidovici.
10 Q. Witness, please go through this -- go through this document, which
11 in this particular portion describes incidents that occurred in Zavidovici
12 Municipality, and try to focus particularly on sections that mention the
13 El Mujahedin unit.
14 The English continues on the next page.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we go on to the next page in the English,
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Witness, you will agree that this document talks about incidents
19 that occurred between January and August 1995 in Zavidovici; is that true?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If you actually count them, you will see that there were a total
22 of nine such incidents; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If you look at this total, can you count them, please?
25 A. Nine, you're right, nine it is.
1 Q. Only the second-to-last, dated the 18th of July, 1995, on this
2 list was perpetrated by a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment,
3 Edin Huskic?
4 A. Indeed.
5 Q. It reads:
6 "Edin Huskic willfully chased a student away from the beach and
7 then left the scene."
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. You will agree with me that the preponderant majority of the
10 incidents was actually caused by other BH Army unit members, as opposed to
11 Edin Huskic; am I right?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
14 questions for this witness.
15 Can we just have a number for this document, please.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
17 please be given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 944.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 Mr. Mundis, any re-examination?
21 MR. MUNDIS: No re-examination. Thank you, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Two brief questions.
25 Questioned by the Court:
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, where is Tesanj? Is it
2 in the same area as Zeljezno Polje? Those are two different areas?
3 A. My apologies, Your Honour. It is in the area of the 3rd Corps.
4 Tesanj and Zeljezno Polje are both in the area of responsibility of the
5 3rd Corps. The answer to that is, yes, that's Tesanj Municipality, and
6 Zeljezno Polje was part of, I no longer remember myself, Zepce or Zenica.
7 It was either Zepce or Zenica.
8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. One other brief
10 On page 108, lines 1, 2, 3, I believe, of the transcript, there is
11 something which I haven't quite understood. I was wondering if you could
12 shed some light on this for us.
13 Here, you, on page 107, line 22, you talked about military
14 districts. Do you remember?
15 A. No, I don't remember the terminology.
16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Let me remind you that you
17 said --
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, I spotted
19 that, and this was an obvious interpretation error, because in the Bosnian
20 the witness never used the words "military district." He just said
21 "district," not "military."
22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So you do confirm that you were
23 talking about a district, you weren't talking about a military district
24 but a civilian one?
25 A. This is probably a question that was about the position of
1 religious dignitaries and how to explain what the position of a mufti
2 would have been, and then the kind lady started talking about the efendi,
3 the imam. He, as such, could be defined or appointed for a particular
4 village, but at the same time this efendi, given his experience, work and
5 time spent in the religious service, can also be defined as the principal
6 imam in a certain area, and this can cover the area of a certain local
7 commune or municipality.
8 The mufti, on the other hand, has a number of municipalities under
9 him, so that's what it meant.
10 These areas, in a purely administrative sense, most frequently did
11 not coincide with the division, in political and social terms, and by that
12 I mean municipalities and cantons.
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] When you're talking about
14 districts that were a higher form of government or self-government, local
15 self-government, which was above the municipalities, you are then talking
16 about a civilian breakdown, not a military structure?
17 A. That's right, that's right.
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions arising, Mr. Mundis?
20 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President, we'd like to just simply thank the
21 witness for testifying.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why are we getting a French interpretation on an
23 English channel?
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises.
25 MR. MUNDIS: It certainly wasn't me, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I know it wasn't you. Okay, you don't have to
2 apologise, interpreter. It's just something that happens with technology,
3 maybe. We should forgive.
4 Okay, Madam Vidovic.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] None, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 Sir, that brings us to the end of your testimony. Thank you very
8 much for coming to testify in this matter. You are now excused, you may
9 stand down, and please travel well back home.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I am aware of the time. There's just
14 one housekeeping matter that I'd like to raise in private session before
15 we adjourn for the week, if I may.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the matter please move -- the Chamber please
17 move into private session.
18 [Private session]
11 Page 6524 redacted. Private session
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 I just want to use this time, because we technically have more
16 than 30 minutes to go, according to our schedule, but we're not going to
17 take all that time, just to talk about the recess.
18 I have been sort of advised by the Chamber staff that there are
19 some requests about when we should resume the trial next year because of
20 problems that may be arising amongst the members of the parties. Is this
21 something that you would like to talk about in private session or is it
22 something you would like to talk about in open session?
23 Can we start with you, Mr. Mundis?
24 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no particular issues with respect
25 to timing. It's, I believe, an issue for the Defence and the Chamber.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I ask to start, if
3 possible, on the 15th of January. You will be familiar with the problems
4 already. The last time, it was in the paper, so ...
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, you don't have to go into the details.
6 That is the request. What's your position on that request?
7 MR. MUNDIS: That is certainly a reasonable request, as far as the
8 Prosecution is concerned, Your Honours. We leave it in the
9 Trial Chamber's hands.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Madam Vidovic, your request is granted. We
12 will then resume on the 15th of January next year. Okay.
13 That was all the housekeeping from the Bench. Shall we then
14 adjourn? If we do, we are adjourning to Tuesday, the 4th of December, at
15 9.00 in the morning in Courtroom II.
16 Court adjourned.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of
19 December, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.