1 Tuesday, 4 December 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, everybody.
7 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honours. This is
9 case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 Could we have the appearances, please, starting with the
13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Good morning, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around
15 the courtroom. Daryl Mundis and Kyle Wood for the Prosecution, assisted
16 by our case manager, Alma Imamovic.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 And for the Defence.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
20 morning to my learned friends from the Office of the Prosecutor. Vasvija
21 Vidovic and Nicholas Robson, representing General Rasim Delic, with our
22 legal assistant, Lana Deljkic.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Good morning, sir.
25 May the witness please make the declaration.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: ZAKIR ALISPAHIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You may be seated, sir. Make sure
6 you're comfortable, and good morning to you. Good morning to you, sir.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 Mr. Mundis.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Mr. Alispahic is appearing for purposes of cross-examination under
12 Rule 92 bis, so the Prosecution has no questions, his statement having
13 been admitted.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 And even before we do that, may I just put on the record that we
16 continue to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis, as Judge Harhoff is not available
17 today. Thank you very much.
18 Mr. Robson.
19 MR. ROBSON: Good morning, Your Honours.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Robson:
21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Alispahic. My name is Nicholas Robson. I
22 represent General Delic, and I'll be asking you some questions today.
23 Just by way of explanation: During the course of this case, you
24 gave three statements to investigators from the Office of the Prosecution.
25 Two of those statements, dated the 22nd of December, 2005, and the 27th of
1 January, 2006, have already been admitted into evidence before this Trial
2 Chamber. Those are your second and third statements.
3 The first statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecution
4 was dated the 7th of November, 2004. That statement has not been
5 admitted. There are some details within that statement that I will be
6 asking you about today.
7 Just starting with some background questions, if I may. It's
8 right that during the war, you joined the Territorial Defence in May 1992,
9 and soon after that time you went to an army training centre in Zenica,
10 where you were there until February 1993; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And after February 1993, you joined the 3rd Military Police
13 Battalion of the 3rd Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In your statements, you explained that the 3rd Military Police
16 Battalion was composed of different units. There were two companies, a
17 traffic company, a logistics platoon, and a services platoon. You were a
18 member of the Services Platoon; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And the Services Platoon was responsible for on-site criminal
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And it's right that the commander of the 3rd Military Police
24 Battalion was Zaim Mujezinovic?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. Now, below Commander Mujezinovic, but above you in the hierarchy
2 of the Military Police Battalion, was the commander of the Services
3 Platoon; am I correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Before you joined the 3rd Military Police Battalion, am I right in
6 saying that at no stage had you received any relevant training or
7 experience to enable you to carry out your duties properly within the
8 Services Platoon?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And is it correct that most of your colleagues in the Services
11 Platoon also lacked training and skills to enable them to carry out their
12 role properly?
13 A. 60 per cent weren't.
14 Q. Concerning your role in the Services Platoon, am I right in saying
15 that you had a duty to investigate when it appeared that a crime had been
16 committed by a member of the ARBiH?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And in addition to carrying out criminal investigation, is it
19 right that the Services Platoon could occasionally be ordered to collect
20 prisoners of war and transport them to the Reception Centre at Zenica KP
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In relation to the 3rd Military Police Battalion, am I correct in
24 saying that there were two lines of command, so within the
25 command-and-control line, command was carried out by the corps commander;
1 however, within the professional line, it was carried out by the assistant
2 commander for security of the 3rd Corps?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Concerning the collection of prisoners of war and transportation
5 to the Reception Centre, is it right that instructions would normally be
6 received through the professional line of reporting?
7 A. I don't understand your question.
8 Q. Concerning the collection and transportation of prisoners of war,
9 am I right in saying that you would normally receive instructions through
10 the professional line of reporting; in other words, instructions would
11 normally originate with the assistant commander for security?
12 A. I received orders from my immediate supervisor. I don't know
13 where he had gotten them from. I wouldn't be able to tell you.
14 Q. Okay. In your statements, you refer to two occasions when you
15 collected prisoners of war from the El Mujahedin Detachment. You refer to
16 one occasion when you took over some women of Serb ethnicity from the El
17 Mujahedin Detachment at the Vatrostalna facility. You also talk about
18 another occasion when you collected a number of captured Serb soldiers
19 from the El Mujahedin Detachment camp in Zavidovici Municipality.
20 Do you recall explaining about those two occasions?
21 A. I remember when I provided my statement to the Office of the
23 Q. And in your statement, you said that those were the only occasions
24 that you had dealings with the El Mujahedin Detachment in relation to
25 prisoners of war; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. I want to turn, first of all, to the occasion when you
3 collected the three women.
4 In your second statement given to the Office of the Prosecution,
5 you explain how you went to the El Mujahedin Detachment facility at
6 Vatrostalna. Is it right that there was you and a driver that went to
7 collect the women?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In that statement, you say the following. This is after you've
10 collected the women: "Once we..." --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you give us the date and paragraph that you are
12 reading from, sir; The date of the statement.
13 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, it's the second statement, which is the
14 22nd of December, 2005, and it's paragraph 38.
15 Q. So, in the statement, you say: "Once we moved away from the
16 Mujahedin camp, I told the ladies to remove the blindfolds and asked them
17 whether they were maltreated in any way. They replied in the negative."
18 Now I want to ask you some questions about that.
19 Having collected these three women, am I right in saying that,
20 before they were taken to the Reception Centre for Prisoners of War, you,
21 first of all, took them into the Service Platoon office?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So the Service Platoon office is where your unit was based. Is
24 that office located close to or actually inside KP Dom?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Which is it; is it actually within the KP Dom compound?
2 A. Our unit was billeted in one part of the KP Dom. We were
3 separated from the civilian part.
4 Q. So you had the opportunity to speak to the three women during the
5 journey and also at the Service Platoon office. Do you remember asking
6 them if they had been mistreated?
7 A. Yes. As we went to the main road, when I told them to remove
8 their blindfolds, Resa [as interpreted] was a member of the army or
9 brought from some unit, and when we brought those two -- three women, the
10 practice was to ask them whether they had been ill-treated, hurt, whether
11 they had any objections. I asked them, and I received a negative answer.
12 There were no traces on them of any physical abuse, and they indeed
13 confirmed that they hadn't been ill-treated, at least at that moment.
14 That's what they said to me.
15 Q. You just mentioned a name there. The record didn't capture the
16 name. Could you repeat for us who was the member of the army that you
18 A. I did not mention any names. I said that even when we brought in
19 army members to our unit on such grounds, we were duty-bound to ask them
20 whether they had been ill-treated or hurt. I'm talking within that
21 context. I'm telling you that our every encounter with persons that we
22 brought in meant that they would be asked whether they were ill-treated or
23 hurt, and I never mentioned any names. I said that "whoever," whichever
24 member of the army was brought in.
25 I can illustrate this by saying that, if somebody was in an army
1 unit and we were supposed to bring that person into our centre, it was our
2 duty to ask them whether they had been hurt in the place where they had
3 been staying before having been brought to us.
4 Q. Thank you for that clarification. You just said that, "Even when
5 we brought in army members to our unit on such grounds, we were duty-bound
6 to ask them whether they had been ill-treated or hurt."
7 Can you just explain which army members you're talking about;
8 members of which army?
9 A. The regular army, members of the BiH Army unit. For example, if
10 they had deserted or something else, we would bring them into our centre.
11 It was our common practice to ask them that within that context.
12 Q. And just for clarification, that would also apply to prisoners of
13 war from --
14 A. Yes, yes. On two occasions, when I brought them in, I had to ask
15 them because certain forms had to be filled in to show whether they had
16 any traces of ill-treatment on their bodies, whether on reception they had
17 shown traces of previous ill-treatment.
18 Q. Okay. We're going to look at some of the documentation that you
20 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, at this stage, perhaps we could go into
21 private session, as we remain on the topic of the three ladies.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 6535-6543 redacted. Private session
24 [Open session]
25 MR. ROBSON: I'd now like to turn to the subject of the prisoners
1 of war, the men that you collected.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we just get confirmation that we're in open
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, now we're in open session.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 Yes. You may proceed, Mr. Robson.
7 MR. ROBSON:
8 Q. Now, according to paragraph 22 of your first statement, dated the
9 17th of November, 1994 [sic], you said the following about the Serb
10 prisoners of war: "I went to the second..." --
11 Sorry, I apologise. 17th of November of 2004 is the date of the
12 statement. That's my mistake.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. I was just saying is he dealing with
15 paragraph 22.
16 MR. ROBSON:
17 Q. And in that paragraph, you state: "I went to the second gate,
18 where the 12 VRS soldiers were lined up."
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Are you starting from the middle of the
20 paragraph or where? Yes.
21 MR. ROBSON: You have it, Your Honour.
22 Q. You state: "I went to the second gate, where the 12 VRS soldiers
23 were lined up. I took them over and brought them with the minibus to my
24 office at the Service Platoon. I wrote down their names; and, after that,
25 they were handed over to the Gathering Centre of Prisoners of War."
1 Is that correct, what you told the investigator in that statement?
2 A. It's unclear to me, totally, the question.
3 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, perhaps we could bring up the statement
4 on the screen and show the witness. That might be the easiest. So the
5 statement is D732. It's page 4 in English and page 4 in the B/C/S
7 Perhaps before I ask Mr. Alispahic to look at paragraph 22,
8 perhaps we can look at the first page to confirm that it is, indeed, his
9 statement made in November 2004.
10 Could we just go to the first page in both documents, please.
11 Q. So would you agree with me, Mr. Alispahic, that what we can see
12 here is what appears to be a statement given by you on the 17th of
13 November, 2004?
14 MR. ROBSON: And if we can scroll to the bottom of the English
15 version, where I hope we can see there's a signature.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 MR. ROBSON:
18 Q. And that's your signature we can see there under --
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. ROBSON: If we can go back to page 4 in both versions, please.
21 Q. Now, what I'm interested in is the part of the statement, and it's
22 towards the end of paragraph 22. I hope it's on your page.
23 Do you see the part that says: "I went to the second gate, where
24 12 VRS soldiers were lined up. I took them over and brought them with the
25 minibus to my office at the Services Platoon. I wrote down their names;
1 and, after that, they were handed over to the Gathering Centre of
2 Prisoners of War."
3 Do you see that part of the statement?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And do you agree that what you said there is correct; in other
6 words, you collected the prisoners of war, you took them to your office at
7 the Services Platoon, and there you wrote down their names and took
8 information from them?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So, as with the three Serb women, once again you had the
11 opportunity to speak to these prisoners during the course of the journey,
12 and, also, you had the chance to see them and speak with them while you
13 were at the Service Platoon office; am I correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And, then, if we can look at this final sentence in paragraph 22,
16 what it states is: "I could not see any injuries or bruises on these 12
17 VRS soldiers. I also asked them if they had been maltreated, but they
19 Do you see that part of your statement?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And do you stand by what you told the investigator when you gave
22 the statement?
23 A. In a brief conversation with them, that's what it says, and it's
24 correct what is written down, meaning that they told me that they had not
25 been mistreated or hurt.
1 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, if I could show the witness a document
2 at this stage, it's P2682.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess that you're not tendering D732. It's a
4 statement, anyway.
5 MR. ROBSON: Correct, Your Honour, I'm not.
6 Q. Mr. Alispahic, could you confirm that this is a document from the
7 3rd Military Police Battalion, dated the 29th of September, 1995, and the
8 subject is: "Taking over members of the so-called VRS from the
9 El Mujahedin Detachment"?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. ROBSON: If we could look at page 2 in the B/C/S version and
12 page 3 in the English, please.
13 Q. Can you confirm that that is your signature on this document?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. ROBSON: If we can return back to the first page of both
16 documents, please.
17 Q. As we saw a little earlier with the three Serb women, am I right
18 in saying that, once again, this is an Official Note listing the names of
19 the persons that you brought into the Reception Centre?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. ROBSON: And in the English version, if we could just look at
22 page 2, just to confirm the names. If we could scroll down the page in
23 this document, please, and if we could look at the final page in English,
25 Q. So what we can see here is the name of the three Serb men that
1 were brought in; is that so -- Sorry, I beg your pardon, the ten Serb men
2 that were brought in?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. Now, when we looked -- when we discussed the three Serb women a
5 little earlier, we saw that, for each person, you filled out a form which
6 described whether there were any signs of sickness or injury. Would a
7 similar form have been completed in respect of each of these ten Serb
8 prisoners of war?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And, again, if you had seen any injuries or signs of mistreatment
11 on those soldiers, that would have been entered and recorded onto that
12 sheet; is that right?
13 A. Yes, because they would not have been admitted to the centre if
14 there were any injuries on them that we did not report or note down.
15 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, if this document could please be
16 admitted into evidence.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: P2682 is admitted into evidence. May it please be
18 given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 948.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 MR. ROBSON: If we could now turn to Exhibit --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Just before we remove the document from the
23 screen, did I hear you say, Mr. Robson, that the people on that list were
25 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, according to this document that we just
1 saw a moment ago, there were ten names mentioned.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just double-check something with the witness.
3 Witness, in your statement that Mr. Robson has been discussing
4 with you, at paragraph 22, you talk of "12 VRS soldiers." Do you remember
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible that in the first
7 statement, it was said "12," but this is the correct information that was
8 written down of those who were brought in. It means that on the basis of
9 a report on taking over persons, it was said that there were such-and-such
10 a number of them, but exactly the number of persons that I took over was
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Let's try and reconcile your statements,
13 then, or at least get an explanation.
14 Do I understand you to say that this ten is the same number that
15 you are referring to in your statement dated the 27th of January, 2006, at
16 paragraph 4, where you say: "I remember that I went to the Mujahedin camp
17 when I took over ten to 11 Serb prisoners of war"?
18 Are you talking about the same incident here in this paragraph and
19 in the other paragraph in the other statement, paragraph 22?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I gave my statement, I didn't
21 remember, I didn't know the number of persons involved when this was
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand, Mr. Alispahic, and I'm not trying to
24 tie you down to numbers. I just want to know that what you refer to in
25 paragraph 4 of your statement of 2006 is the same incident that you are
1 referring to in your statement of 2004. Are you talking about the same
3 The reason I'm asking you is --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Thank you so much.
6 You may proceed, Mr. Robson.
7 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 If we could look at Exhibit 875, please.
9 Q. So, Mr. Alispahic, a moment ago, we looked at an Official Note
10 relating to the hand-over of the ten prisoners of war. Can you confirm
11 that what we see before us now is a transfer list relating to the same ten
12 persons, and it's dated the 29th of September, 1995?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And, again, is this yet another form that you had to complete when
15 the men were brought into the Reception Centre?
16 A. Yes. This is the document used to be handed over to the
17 admittance centre, because otherwise they would not be able to be -- or
18 they could not be admitted.
19 Q. So from these documents, what we can conclude is that at every
20 stage from the moment you took the prisoners of war, there was a record to
21 show what happened to the prisoners; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And if we look at this list of prisoners, we can see two names
24 there: Milorad Panjic [sic] and Nedja [sic] Pecanac.
25 MR. ROBSON: I will come to these two names in a moment, if I may.
1 Your Honours, if that document could be put away, I'd like to turn
2 to P2687, P2687. This is the correct document.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Alispahic, the B/C/S version of this document is a little
4 hard to see, but -- and I can supply you with a hard copy, if necessary.
5 But would you agree with me that what this document is a report
6 from the 3rd Corps Security Services to the General Staff Security
8 A. Based on what is written here, it should be the way you suggest.
9 Q. And we can see a heading that says: "Results of the preliminary
10 interview with Prisoners of War Milorad Panic and Nedja [sic] Pecanac."
11 MR. ROBSON: And if we could just look at page 2 in the B/C/S
12 version and page 2 in the English as well -- I beg your pardon. If we
13 could go back to page 1 in the B/C/S version, and if we can scroll down
14 the page in the B/C/S.
15 Q. Would you agree with me that this document bears the signature
16 block of Agan Haseljic, who is the assistant commander for security in the
17 3rd Corps?
18 A. That's what it says.
19 Q. So this document relates to a preliminary interview with those two
20 men that I mentioned.
21 MR. ROBSON: If we can now look at page 3 in the English and page
22 2 in the B/C/S.
23 Q. Would you agree with me that this is a second document that is
24 appended to that first document from the assistant commander for security?
25 A. This is probably just one component. It was based on this
1 conversation that the document was produced.
2 Q. Okay. Well, let's have a look at the second document accompanying
3 Commander Haseljic's report.
4 Would you agree with me that this document --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just so that we can follow, where is it being
6 deduced from these documents that there is a second document? We are left
8 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, what I'll do is I'll first just
9 establish what this second document is, and then I'll --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: But when you say to him, "When you look at this
11 document, can you see that there is a second document," what must he look
12 at in this document to see that there is a second document?
13 MR. ROBSON: I'll clarify that, Your Honour.
14 Q. So, a moment ago, we saw a report from the 3rd Corps Military
15 Security Service. Would you agree with me that when we look at this
16 document, this is a separate -- this is a second document, or certainly
17 appears to be, dated the 30th of September, 1995, and it has a
18 heading: "Conduct of the preliminary interview with the members of the
19 so-called 'VRS'- Milorad Panic and Nedja [sic] Pecanac"?
20 A. It's a male, isn't it?
21 MR. ROBSON: I'm told that the name is "Nedjo Pecanac."
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: On the previous document, was it not Milorad
23 "Pajic," not "Panic"?
24 MR. ROBSON: Milorad is the first name, I believe, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: But was this surname not spelled with a "J" instead
1 of an "N," in the previous document?
2 MR. ROBSON: I believe it was, but if I can just try and ascertain
3 what this document is.
4 Q. Mr. Alispahic, you agree that we have a document in front of you
5 that has a subject heading: "Conduct of preliminary interview with ..."
6 two named persons? Would you like to see a hard copy of this, if it's
7 hard to make it out?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I do think it's very hard to make out, this
10 MR. ROBSON: Okay. If we could please turn to the second page,
11 the next page in this document that we have on our screens in the B/C/S
12 version, and the last page in the English, page 5.
13 Q. So, Mr. Alispahic, this second document that we have just looked
14 at, would you agree that you are the author of that document?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. ROBSON: So if we can go back to the page before in the B/C/S
17 version and page 3 in the English version. Page 3 in the English, please.
18 Q. So as you are the author of this document, which relates to a --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is this page 3 of the English?
20 MR. ROBSON: It is, Your Honour, it's correct.
21 Q. So as you are the author of this document, which relates to a
22 preliminary interview with the two named persons, is it correct to say
23 that you carried out an interview with them?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And if we look at the first paragraph of this document, we can see
1 that you carried out that interview on the 30th of September, 1995; is
2 that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And if you could please take a look through the contents of this
5 document, and if you could take the opportunity to read both pages of the
6 B/C/S version.
7 Could you please confirm, if you're able to do so, that nowhere in
8 this document does it suggest that these two Serb prisoners of war were
9 mistreated in any way?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we turn over the English page so that we can
11 keep reading.
12 MR. ROBSON:
13 Q. Have you had the chance to read the document?
14 A. It's a poor copy. Well, I managed to some extent, but not
16 Q. Again, if you'd like a hard copy, Mr. Alispahic, I can supply you
17 with one.
18 A. Fine.
19 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, perhaps would you like to see the third
20 page in English, just to read the contents of that?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we scroll down the English, please, or turn it
22 around. Go to the next page.
23 MR. ROBSON:
24 Q. So can you confirm, Mr. Alispahic, that nowhere in your document
25 does it suggest that these two men were mistreated at any stage during
1 their detention?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then just to round off this document - if we could return back
4 to the first page in the English and B/C/S version - we saw that your
5 interview was carried out on the 30th of September; and, in this first
6 document entitled "Report," this is also dated the 30th of September, the
7 heading being: "Results of the preliminary interview with prison
8 Prisoners of War Milorad Panic and Nedjo Pecanac," would you agree that
9 this report to the General Staff Security Administration seems to be based
10 on your preliminary interview? Are you able to say?
11 A. It probably is.
12 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, could this document please be admitted
13 into evidence.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
15 please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 949.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I note the time. Perhaps it would be a
19 good moment to take the break.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 We'll take the break and come back at quarter to 11.00.
22 Court adjourned.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.
1 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Mr. Alispahic, in your statements, you discuss the El Mujahedin
3 Detachment. Would you agree with me that the El Mujahedin Detachment did
4 not have its own military police unit?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In your first statement of the 17th of November, 2004, at
7 paragraph 17, you say that: "I have never investigated a crime committed
8 by a soldier from an Arabic country."
9 Am I correct in stating that, during the time you served in the
10 3rd Military Police Battalion, you had no reason to investigate any member
11 of the El Mujahedin Detachment?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In your second statement, which was taken in 2005, you talk about
14 the security organ of the El Mujahedin Detachment. Now, initially, in
15 paragraph 31, you state: "The security organ of the El Mujahedin was a
17 When we read that statement, we can see that at that point, when
18 you were interviewed, you could not recall the name of that person who was
19 the security organ.
20 As we read through the statement, at paragraph 44, it becomes
21 clear that the investigator showed you a photograph of a man; and on that
22 photograph, the name "Abu Aiman" was written. You then recognised that
23 man as being the security organ of the El Mujahedin Detachment; is that
25 A. Yes. That's how he introduced himself.
1 Q. So did you ever see anything official, such as a document or
2 anything in writing, that showed that Abu Ajman was the security organ of
3 the El Mujahedin Detachment?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Was it Abu Ajman himself who told you that he was the security
6 organ of the detachment?
7 A. Well, we talked, and he probably said that. We talked on the
8 phone, and he said that he was working with the security. Was he ever
9 appointed or not is something that I can't tell you. That's what he said.
10 I'm not sure if it's true or not, but that's what he said. I never saw
11 this written anywhere in a document or anything like that.
12 Q. Okay. Do you have any personal knowledge of whether Abu Ajman
13 sent reports to the Military Security Service of the 3rd Corps or any
14 other unit?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Would you agree with me that the El Mujahedin Detachment did not
17 have a security service or security organ like other ARBiH units?
18 A. Believe me, I don't know how they were organised. I never saw a
19 chart or anything like that, and I don't know how it functioned.
20 Q. In your second statement from 2005, at paragraph 76 of the
21 statement, you state: "I might have had approximately 50 meetings with
22 Aiman." Is that correct?
23 A. No.
24 Q. How many meetings did you, in fact, have with Abu Ajman? Can you
1 A. This figure here was stated in the last statement I made, which I
2 signed. As I was signing, I told them that the figure was erroneous. The
3 Prosecutor, who was talking to me -- or rather, the interpreter explained
4 to me that this wasn't material. I think there was a total of between
5 five and ten meetings, in my estimate, in the barracks with the Military
6 Police Battalion and the two times I went to see them over there. Ajman
7 and I never met anywhere else, aside from the barracks.
8 Q. So, if you only had between five and ten meetings with Abu Ajman,
9 and that included the two occasions when you took over the Serb prisoners
10 of war, would I be correct in saying that you had only limited involvement
11 with the El Mujahedin Detachment?
12 A. Yes. I only had involvement with the detachment when I received
13 orders from my superior.
14 Q. So would you agree that, from your limited involvement with the
15 El Mujahedin Detachment, this particular detachment did not, in fact,
16 appear to be a regular unit of the 3rd Corps, like other ARBiH units that
17 you had to deal with?
18 A. Based on my work, based on what I saw, they didn't have the same
19 structure. They weren't organised the same way as us; and by "us," I mean
20 the regular units. Whenever we went there, they gave us whatever
21 information they thought was necessary and any explanations that they
22 cared to give us as to why they were doing certain things.
23 But as far as I know, they weren't structured the same way as all
24 the other units. I'm not really familiar with their structure; but during
25 our brief meetings, that was my impression.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Alispahic.
2 MR. ROBSON: I have no further questions for him.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Wood.
4 MR. WOOD: Nothing, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Wood.
7 Sir, thank you very much. This brings us to the conclusion of
8 your testimony. Thank you very much for coming to testify. You are now
9 released. You may go, you may stand down, you are excused.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
12 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, as we previously had informed the
13 Trial Chamber's legal officer, we have no further witnesses for today.
14 The next witness who's scheduled to appear tomorrow is travelling today,
15 so we have nothing further for today.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 In that event, then, the Court will stand adjourned until tomorrow
18 at 9.00 in the morning in Courtroom II.
19 Court adjourned.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.55 a.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 5th day of
22 December, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.