1 Tuesday, 15 January 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody and welcome back. I

7 hope everybody is well rested after the holidays and ready to work and

8 work very hard.

9 May the registrar please call the case.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good afternoon, Your Honours. Good

11 afternoon to everyone in the courtroom. Case number IT-04-83-T, The

12 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. May we have the appearances,

14 please, starting with the Prosecution.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon,

16 Your Honours, counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom.

17 Daryl Mundis and Matthias Neuner for the Prosecution, assisted by our case

18 manager Alma Imamovic-Ivanov.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much and for the Defence.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good

21 afternoon to my learned friends of the OTP, to all those in and around the

22 courtroom. Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson for the Defence of

23 Rasim Delic with assistants Lana Deljkic and Lejla Gluhic.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 Is it Mr. Neuner? Before you start, can we just swear in the

1 witness.

2 MR. NEUNER: Yes, please.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, sir.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much for standing. Will you please

6 make the declaration.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may now be seated.

10 Mr. Neuner.

11 WITNESS: IVAN NEGOVETIC

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examination by Mr. Neuner:

14 Q. Good afternoon, witness. Could you please state your name?

15 A. Ivan Negovetic.

16 Q. When and where were you born, Mr. Negovetic?

17 A. I was born in Sarajevo in 1939 on the 25th of August.

18 Q. Do you remember giving a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor

19 of the ICTY?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. NEUNER: Can we please have exhibit -- can we please have

22 document P 02652 shown to this witness.

23 Q. Do you have your glasses?

24 A. I believe I left them in that room back there.

25 Q. Okay.

1 A. No, no.

2 Q. No problem. Could you tell us whose statement is this?

3 A. Mine.

4 Q. Yes. And did you sign each and every page of this statement,

5 having read it before?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And after you have read and signed it, was this statement

8 certified in November 2007 by a public notary in the United States?

9 A. Yes, it was.

10 Q. Are you satisfied that the content of this statement is accurate?

11 A. Yes, yes, I am.

12 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, according to Rule 92 bis I would like

13 to tender this statement of the witness dating 27th of November, with a PT

14 number 6252 and the ERN number 06148894 till 06148903 into evidence.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The statement is admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 977, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 MR. NEUNER:

20 Q. Witness, I want to show you one document now, which you also

21 discuss in the statement. The PT number is P 01306.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.

23 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, I believe it is P 01308 that my learned

24 friend is referring to.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Robson.

1 MR. NEUNER: Yes, correct. P 01308. Thank you.

2 Q. We see here it's a document from the 23rd of June, 1993, and if we

3 could scroll -- if we could please go to the second page, I'm interested

4 in the signatures.

5 Who signed this document?

6 A. I signed it. My colleague Fadil Alihodzic did, and my superior,

7 Mr. Stjepan Siber.

8 Q. If we could go back to the first page again, please, and we see

9 here it is sent to the Supreme Command Staff in Sarajevo and to the

10 president of the Presidency of the RBih. If I may ask you who drafted

11 that document?

12 A. I drafted the first version of the document, which I then

13 discussed with my colleague Fadil. We modified the initial version

14 somewhat and this is the final version that the two of us agreed upon and

15 presented to Mr. Siber.

16 Q. And you mentioned your colleague Fadil. This would be

17 Fadil Alihodzic who has also signed, just for clarification?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I want you, please, to look at number 2 of this document and I see

20 in the first sentence following number 2, it is stated in the village of

21 Mehurici there are 247 civilians of Croatian ethnicity placed in a school

22 gym.

23 Have you yourself seen these people?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. And if I follow reading the document, the second sentence says:

1 "They are under protection of the 306th military police but are exposed to

2 mortal danger by the so-called death brigade, mostly consisting of

3 Mujahedin, foreigners based in the immediate proximity."

4 You explained to us you were the drafter. Could you explain to me

5 what did you mean by the term "death brigade"?

6 A. This is the term I heard, or, rather the entire sentence was

7 drafted based on my direct conversation with the battalion commander of

8 the 306th Brigade, which we had had informally before the formal meeting.

9 He relayed to me the facts contained in this sentence, namely, that under

10 the protection of the 306th Brigade, and the police of the 306th Brigade

11 that they protected them and that this Mujahedin brigade was called the

12 death brigade. I heard that term from him.

13 Q. Could you just explain to me where was this conversation with the

14 battalion commander of the 306th Brigade?

15 A. In the primary school in a building in the village of Mehurici.

16 Q. And what did you mean by writing in this sentence that the

17 Mujahedin are housed in the immediate vicinity?

18 A. I saw that they were accommodated on the first floor of the

19 primary school building, that is to say, in the very same building where

20 the civilians were accommodated, or rather, were situated in the gym where

21 we visited them.

22 On the ground floor, one unit of the 306th Brigade was billeted.

23 I believe it was a battalion, but I'm not sure.

24 Q. Mm-hm. Can you explain what exactly you saw during your visit,

25 what you saw about the persons which you consider to be part of this death

1 brigade?

2 A. First, on the way to the village of Mehurici, several kilometres

3 beyond that or away from that village a group of Mujahedins stopped us.

4 We were in a vehicle of the UN and they pulled us over with -- they

5 trained their anti-tank weapons at us. And Mr. Bagison, if I remember his

6 name correctly, who was a member of the exchange commission asked the two

7 of us, as members of the army, to get out of the car to see what it is

8 that they wanted. I didn't know what was going on, because we were in a

9 close-type vehicle. At any rate, he told us a to get out and negotiate

10 with the people who pulled us over. We got out and noticed, observed a

11 group of these individuals. I'm convinced that they were foreigners

12 because they did not speak our language. I could only communicate with

13 them in English. We asked them why they had stopped us and they said that

14 we, as members of the army, the two of us were free to proceed but that

15 the UN vehicle was not. We explained that in that case our mission would

16 not be carried out and that we had to go as a whole that the other members

17 of the commission were there.

18 After these negotiations, we said that as a result of our mission

19 not only those Croats would be released but also Muslims held as well

20 elsewhere. I recall him asking me how many Muslims were involved and I

21 gave him the figure of around 100 Muslims only to try and appease him. He

22 then went behind some shrubbery, consulted someone there, went back and

23 let us go. The people who stopped us were surely foreigners, both by

24 their appearance and their manner of speech.

25 As we entered the village of Mehurici, got out of our vehicle, and

1 as we were entering the school building we noticed a group of the

2 Mujahedin descending the stairs with anti-armor weaponry. They were

3 shouting words in a language I did not understand and I concluded that

4 they were foreigners too. They went somewhere - I don't know where - I

5 entered the -- the building, I entered one of the classrooms and out of

6 the windows there, observed what was going on. I noticed that they --

7 Q. Can I just stop you here for a second. You said that these

8 foreigners were coming down the stairs. What stairs of what building were

9 they coming down?

10 A. I was referring to the stairs of the primary school building in

11 Mehurici. They were coming down the stairs from the first floor to the

12 ground floor, and we passed each other.

13 Q. Sorry for the interruption, if you please go on with your

14 observations.

15 A. Out of the window, we were able to see that they surrounded the

16 vehicle with their anti-tank weapons trained at it. The situation was

17 very tense. At that point, several soldiers, members of the army, came

18 running out spontaneously. This was no order; they didn't even have any

19 weapons on them. They stood between the Mujahedin and the UN vehicle and

20 I believe that was what prevented the Mujahedin from opening fire.

21 One by one they gave up and left until this just one person stayed

22 who was the most pig-headed one but then he left in the end. And that was

23 how this incident ended with no injuries on any side and that's my answer

24 to your question.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, I thought this witness made a

1 statement, a written statement and that you were just picking up on one or

2 two things just to introduce the statement. It looks like we now --

3 MR. NEUNER: I fully agree but I was also tempted to interrupt the

4 witness at certain stages but I failed. At this point in time it is maybe

5 worth that I let him tell at least this episode. I will just ask him two,

6 three more questions relating to the document.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: And please control your witnesses.

8 MR. NEUNER: Yes, I will.

9 I have just a question relating to the next, meaning the third

10 sentence. You're referring to Mr. Salko Beba here.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we turn to the next page in English, please.

12 MR. NEUNER: Yes. Can we go a little bit up in the English,

13 please. Yes.

14 Q. Mr. Salko Beba allegedly said here that Mujahedin executed about

15 50 civilians. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber, where did Mr. Beba

16 explain that information to you, provide that information to you?

17 A. At the command of the Operational Group Zapad, West, in Travnik.

18 Q. Thank you. And do you remember any further details than what you

19 have written down here already about this incident, the execution? Was

20 Mr. Beba giving you any further details or was this about everything that

21 you knew which you put down here in writing?

22 A. No, nothing else. The only thing which is contained in my

23 statement is that he had told us this in confidence only to me and

24 Mr. Fadil Alihodzic before the formal meet.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 A. He was doing his best not to have other members of the commission

2 hear this.

3 Q. Then in the next sentence you mention a civilian who managed to

4 survive this execution who would be among these 247 civilians in Mehurici.

5 How did you learn this information?

6 A. This is part of the information we received from Mr. Salko Beba.

7 After he told us about the execution, he said that one of them managed to

8 survive.

9 Q. After you had visited Mehurici on the 23rd of June, 1993, how long

10 did you stay in Central Bosnia?

11 A. Until the beginning of August, just under two months therefore.

12 Q. Okay. In the next paragraph here, it is mentioned that the

13 complex Mujahedin -- that the issue with the Mujahedin would be a complex

14 one. And -- or complicated, you write. And the president of the

15 Presidency and the commander of the ARBiH should come to Zenica.

16 Could you tell me what reaction, if any, did you get to this

17 request?

18 A. I can only say that I don't know whether there was any reaction.

19 I don't know anything about it. I can't say anything further.

20 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Fadil Alihodzic or Mr. Stjepan Siber, who

21 as you explained had also signed this letter, told you something about a

22 visit which you requested here by Mr. Izetbegovic or Mr. Rasim Delic?

23 A. No.

24 Q. This means they didn't tell you anything, or you don't know?

25 A. They didn't tell me anything, and I wasn't able to learn anything

1 about it from any other sources of information.

2 Q. Could you tell me, if Mr. Izetbegovic or Mr. Rasim Delic would

3 have visited Zenica, would you, in your position as --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.

5 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I note that earlier my learned friend

6 said that he was going to ask one or two questions pertaining to the

7 letter. It appears to me that he is moving away from the letter and

8 asking more general questions, some of which are touched upon in the

9 statement already so I don't think it needs to be repeated by the witness.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

11 MR. NEUNER: The witness has in this letter requested such a visit

12 and I'm just trying to follow up.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but, you know, the testimony of the witness is

14 contained in a paper, sir. That's what you wanted to put before this

15 Court and I have just warned you about this earlier.

16 MR. NEUNER: Okay. Then the Prosecution has no further questions,

17 Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 Mr. Robson.

20 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Robson:

22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Negovetic. My name is Nicholas Robson and I

23 represent General Rasim Delic today.

24 As you will have gathered, your statement is admitted into

25 evidence and the Trial Chamber will have read it. The purpose of me

1 cross-examining you today is to clarify certain points contained within

2 your statement.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson, may I interrupt you? I'm sorry to do

4 this to you.

5 Mr. Neuner, P 01308, do you want it admitted into evidence?

6 MR. NEUNER: Yes, I do.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it please be given an exhibit number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 978, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed, Mr. Robson.

10 MR. ROBSON: Thank you.

11 Q. So as I was explaining, the purpose is to clarify points contained

12 within your statement. If at any time you don't understand my questions,

13 please let me know and I'll try to rephrase the questions that I put to

14 you.

15 So, going to the background contained within your statement at

16 paragraph 4 you explain how you became a member of the Supreme Command

17 Staff of the ARBiH and that was in the second half of 1992.

18 Could you tell us, what was your position within the Supreme

19 Command Staff?

20 A. I was a member of the administration of works, the two of us were

21 actually charged. We were charged in the administration for biological,

22 chemical -- for biological and chemical protection, Mr. Alija [as

23 interpreted] and I.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the name.

25 MR. ROBSON:

1 Q. Could you just please repeat the name, please. The interpreter

2 didn't catch that.

3 A. Mujo Alic and I were members of services for biological and

4 chemical protection.

5 Q. And is it right that your background was as a scientist and not as

6 a soldier?

7 A. When I was recruited, yes. In fact, I completed the reserve

8 officers school for atomic, biological and chemical warfare in the former

9 Yugoslavia and it was probably on this basis that I was recruited into the

10 staff of the Supreme Command.

11 Q. So but prior to you joining the Supreme Command Staff, you were a

12 civilian. Is that so?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In your statement, you explain how you were ordered to go to the

15 forward command post at Zenica. Before I explore what happened there, if

16 I could just clarify a matter of terminology. At various points in your

17 statement you refer to the Supreme Command and you say that you were

18 appointed to the forward command post of the Supreme Command. Would you

19 agree with me that in fact it was the Supreme Command Staff that you were

20 a member of?

21 A. Yes, yes. I was writing my statement in English and I must have

22 made some errors in English. But that was the staff of the Supreme

23 Command.

24 Q. And just for clarification, the Supreme Command would in fact

25 refer to the Presidency of the --

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. -- Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 Now if I could show you, please, Exhibit 245.

4 Perhaps while we are waiting for that to appear, I could explain

5 that this is an order for Supreme Command Staff to go to liberated

6 territory and it is dated the 28th of April, 1993.

7 Mr. Negovetic, can you see the document in front of you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Perhaps if we can just scroll to the bottom of the document in the

10 B/C/S version and briefly go to page 2 in the English. We'll have to go

11 to page 2 in the B/C/S as well; I apologise.

12 Would you agree that here we can see that this order was issued by

13 Sefer Halilovic, who was then the Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command

14 Staff?

15 A. Correct. It was signed by someone on his behalf. I can't read or

16 make out the name. But, yes.

17 Q. Thank you. And if we could revert back to page 1, please.

18 Would you agree with me that in this order, Mr. Halilovic is

19 ordering the various men who are to go to the forward command staff in

20 Zenica?

21 MR. NEUNER: If I can just make a suggestion, the witness has said

22 that it wasn't signed by Mr. Halilovic. You were just putting to him that

23 Mr. Halilovic has done certain things.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.

25 MR. ROBSON:

1 Q. Mr. Negovetic, would you agree that through this order what we can

2 see, is that various members of -- or various officers are being sent to

3 the forward command post at Zenica, and there at number 6, within

4 paragraph number 2, we can see your name?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. And would you agree with me from paragraph number 1 in this

7 document we can see that the purpose of the forward command post at Zenica

8 was to monitor and to command armed combat?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought you said --

10 MR. ROBSON: Point number 1, I should say, rather than paragraph.

11 Sorry, it is the very first paragraph that I'm referring to.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought you said --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm reading both versions, the

14 English and ours but I don't see what you said. The first sentence says

15 to activate the forward command post. And then responsible for providing

16 working and living conditions and rations and that's all.

17 MR. ROBSON:

18 Q. I apologise if I have caused confusion. What I would like you to

19 look at is if we look under the heading where it says order for SVK staff

20 to go to liberated territory. Then there appears to be a line that sets

21 out the purpose of the forward command post. And is it right or would you

22 agree with me that the purpose of the forward command post was to monitor

23 and command armed combat?

24 A. Yes, that's what the first sentence says. I agree.

25 Q. And the area of responsibility of the forward command post, is it

1 right that that related to Central Bosnia, in particular the zones of

2 responsibility of the 2nd and 3rd Corps?

3 A. This is not explicitly stated here, but practically the 2nd and

4 the 3rd Corps were within our range. We didn't have anything to do with

5 other units.

6 Q. Okay.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just clear a point that causes me

8 confusion, sir.

9 Are you able to explain to us how these people were supposed to

10 monitor and command armed combat in a liberated area? I would imagine

11 that a liberated area, in a liberated area there would be no armed combat.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this is question for me?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Of course it is, sir, yes.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

15 Zenica was -- you know that Sarajevo was under siege during the

16 war and it was very difficult to organise the command in Sarajevo, I

17 think. And one of the reasons to form this forward command post in Zenica

18 was that, because Zenica was a relatively peaceful area - there were a

19 couple of artillery attacks, perhaps, but in Zenica there was no armed

20 conflict at that time that we arrived there.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: My point precisely. If there is it no armed combat

22 there, how do you monitor armed combat there, in a liberated area or in an

23 area that was never under attack?

24 All I'm saying is that -- the words "under order" seem to

25 contradict the way words below those words. I'm trying to get a

1 reconciliation of the two.

2 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, perhaps I could assist.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like the witness to assist.

4 I'm not trying to trick you. If you are not able to explain, just

5 say I can't explain; or if you have an explanation, you can give an

6 explanation.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The explanation that we got, when

8 this forward command post was formed, was that it would be easier to

9 command operations in the territory that was not under siege, like

10 Sarajevo was. Because Sarajevo was under siege, that meant poor

11 communications, complicated connections or communication with other units,

12 so it was much easier to organise communication with other units in

13 Zenica. I think that was the main reason. This is my opinion and this is

14 also something that I had heard.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed.

16 MR. ROBSON:

17 Q. So as I understand it, Mr. Negovetic, you were based in Zenica,

18 which was a relatively stable location subject to those artillery attacks

19 that you mentioned, and from Zenica you yourself would go out into the

20 field to visit various units and perhaps some of those units were in

21 rather more dangerous locations. Would that be fair?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. In your statement, you explained that you started your

24 duties on the 2nd of May, and you explain how you visited various units at

25 the corps and operations group level. And then you go on to explain that

1 there were regular morning meetings at the forward command post. And what

2 you say in paragraph 10 is, you had the impression that and I quote:

3 "Information we received were significantly filtered. Also, we were not

4 in a position to make any significant decision."

5 And I would like to discuss that comment with you, if I may.

6 Would you agree with me that the chain of command that was applicable to

7 the Bosnian army dictated that information be sent from the corps level to

8 the forward command post in Zenica and also to the Supreme Command Staff

9 in Sarajevo?

10 A. That is correct. We received numerous reports. I don't have

11 proof of that, though. I can say that I do have the impression that were

12 some reports that we didn't receive that we couldn't see. At least I

13 didn't have the opportunity at our morning meetings to hear about them.

14 This is difficult to explain but suddenly you would hear a piece

15 of information from the other side or from the press even and it was

16 something that you had never heard about at official meetings. Well, that

17 was the impression that I formed. It could be erroneous. I'm not

18 insisting on it.

19 Q. You're not insisting on that. Perhaps if I could show you a

20 series of documents which relate to this very issue, and we can perhaps --

21 you can perhaps let us know whether you stick to that conclusion in your

22 statement?

23 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, the first document is D749.

24 Your Honours, whilst we're waiting for this to appear on the

25 screen, you will see that this is a regular combat report dated the 13th

1 of May, 1993.

2 Q. Mr. Negovetic, are you able to confirm that this report that we

3 see in front of us was sent from the 3rd Corps command and we can see that

4 it was sent to the Supreme Command of the RBiH.

5 I think it may not be so clear for you from the front page, so

6 what I will do is ask for us to take a look at the last page in this

7 document in both the English and the B/C/S.

8 MR. ROBSON: If we can scroll down in the B/C/S, thanks. Sorry,

9 scroll up in the B/C/S. Thank you.

10 Q. I think just for the witness's assistance if we can just go to the

11 page before this in the B/C/S version only and go to the bottom of this

12 page, the copy is unfortunately cut off halfway through.

13 But would you agree that that appears to be a stamp at the bottom

14 and you may be able to make out the name, Hadzihasanovic, certainly the

15 top part of that?

16 A. Yes, that's it, the commander of the 3rd Corps, Hadzihasanovic.

17 Q. If we could go to the final page in the B/C/S.

18 So this document, dated 13th May which was not long after you

19 arrived at the forward command post, would you agree that here, what we

20 can see is on the very top line of this page, it says SVK, IKM and then

21 the letters ZE, it looks like.

22 A. SA? I think it is Sarajevo, SA.

23 Q. If you look at the line below, the second line down from the top

24 of the page, does that not say: SVK, SA?

25 A. In the second line, yes.

1 Q. So the second one would appear to be an indication that this

2 document was sent to Sarajevo. If you look at the top line, would you

3 agree that this shows that the report was sent to the forward command post

4 at Zenica?

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, could this document please be admitted

7 into evidence.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 979, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Robson.

12 MR. ROBSON: If we could turn to document D 750. Your Honours, I

13 should say that I do have a number of these documents to show. I will try

14 and keep them to the minimum but I will try and have the witness deal with

15 them as swiftly as possible so as not to lose time.

16 Q. And here, Mr. Negovetic, would you agree that what we can see is a

17 document in the same -- certainly with the appearance in the same form as

18 before. In the English version it has a slightly different title, it says

19 daily operations report with situation at 2200 hours. It's dated the 2nd

20 of June, 1993.

21 And if we look just next to the heading that I read out, would you

22 agree that this -- that it shows that the report went to the Supreme

23 Command Staff in Sarajevo and in Zenica?

24 A. I don't see the bottom of the page, but I assume that that is so.

25 Q. Okay, it's -- what I'm referring to you is on this page --

1 A. Oh yes. Yes, yes, I see it, yes. On the right side, yes.

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Sent to the IKM.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, if this could be admitted into

6 evidence, please.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

8 please be given an exhibit number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 980, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Robson.

11 MR. ROBSON: If I could get you to turn to Exhibit D751. It is a

12 regular combat report dated the 5th of June, 1993.

13 Q. If have you any difficulty in seeing these documents --

14 A. [In English] I see it. No problem.

15 Q. Can you confirm that this is a regular combat report from the 3rd

16 Corps. And again, when we look at -- next to the heading we can see that

17 this document was sent to the Supreme Command Staff in Sarajevo and also

18 in Zenica at the forward command post.

19 A. [Interpretation] Correct.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, if it could be please admitted into

22 evidence.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

24 please be given an exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 981, Your Honours.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, the next document is D752. And while

3 we're waiting, this document will be a regular combat report dated the 6th

4 of June 1993.

5 Q. And once again, Mr. Negovetic, from this -- I will just wait for

6 the document to appear before the --

7 From this document, we can see that it was sent from the 3rd Corps

8 to the Supreme Command Staff in Sarajevo and also the forward command post

9 in Zenica. Is that so?

10 A. [Previous translation continues] ... Question? Yes.

11 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, if this could please be admitted into

12 evidence.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

14 please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 982, Your Honours.

16 MR. ROBSON: If we could have a look at D753, please.

17 Your Honour, while we're waiting, this is a regular combat report

18 dated the 9th of June, 1993.

19 Q. Mr. Negovetic, can you confirm that this is a report from the 3rd

20 Corps to the Supreme Command Staff at Sarajevo and also to the forward

21 command post in Zenica?

22 A. [No interpretation]

23 Q. Now before we leave this document there is an item of interest

24 that I would like to discuss with you and we can find it on the third page

25 in the English version, and in the B/C/S version it is also page 3.

1 Sorry, I apologise, it's page 2, the last paragraph in the B/C/S

2 version.

3 If we can scroll down the page in the English version.

4 So here we have part of the report which deals with activities

5 taking place around about the 9th of June, 1993. And what I'm interested

6 in is the paragraph which is directly above point number 4. It's the last

7 sentence in the B/C/S version, so, if you could please read that page and

8 if we can turn over to the B/C/S version so you can see what it is that

9 I'm interested in.

10 A. The last paragraph in English. I can see that the text correspond

11 to each other. I'm sorry what was the question?

12 Q. I understand that you read both B/C/S and English, so I'm not sure

13 which of the texts you're preferring to look at. What I'm interested in

14 is in that text there is a sentence which says: The HVO is holding

15 Velika Bukovica and Mala Bukovica with 150 detained civilians. Fighting

16 is underway around the Velenici repeater.

17 And my question to you is, this report from the 9th of June, that

18 talks about detained civilians in Velika Bukovica, can you confirm that

19 those were the civilians that you, yourself, saw in Skradno village?

20 A. I saw a large group of people in the village of Skradno and I was

21 told that some of them were the inhabitants of Skradno and some were

22 refugees from the village of Bukovica. But I didn't ask, I didn't speak

23 to the people, I didn't ask the people where they were from; we talked

24 about other things. But it is possible that they were.

25 Q. Mm-hm. Now, I think what I'll do is I'll come to your

1 observations in the village of Skradno later on.

2 MR. ROBSON: So at this stage, Your Honours, if this could please

3 be admitted into evidence.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 983, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, if we could please look at D754. This

9 is a regular combat report from the 3rd Corps dated the 14th of June,

10 1993.

11 Q. And once again, Mr. Negovetic, can you confirm that this report

12 was sent from the 3rd Corps to the Supreme Command Staff in Sarajevo and

13 the forward command post in Zenica?

14 A. Yes, it is obvious that that's what it states.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. ROBSON: If this could please be admitted into evidence.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

18 please be given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 984, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Robson.

21 MR. ROBSON: Next, Your Honours, D755. And this is the

22 penultimate document from this type of document.

23 Your Honours, while we're waiting for it to appear, this is a

24 regular combat report from the 3rd Corps dated the 18th of June, 1993.

25 Q. Mr. Negovetic, can you confirm that this report was sent to the

1 Supreme Command Staff in Sarajevo and the forward command post in Zenica?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, if it could please be admitted into

4 evidence.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

6 please be given an exhibit number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 985, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Robson.

9 MR. ROBSON: And then the final document of this type, it's D756,

10 which is a regular combat report from the 3rd Corps, dated the 21st of

11 June, 1993.

12 Q. And, Mr. Negovetic, can you again confirm that this is a report

13 that went to the Supreme Command Staff in Sarajevo and in Zenica at the

14 forward command post?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. ROBSON: If this document could please be admitted into

17 evidence.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

19 please be given an exhibit number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit number 985, Your Honours -- I'm sorry,

21 986.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 MR. ROBSON:

24 Q. We have just seen a range of documents over a period of time from

25 early May until the 21st of June. Would you agree with me that these

1 documents demonstrate that at least the 3rd Corps was reporting to both

2 the Supreme Command Staff in Sarajevo and also its forward command post in

3 Zenica?

4 A. Well, the shortest answer would be yes. But if you would like to

5 hear my comments, then I could ... Do you want me just to answer with a

6 yes or no or would you like me to explain a bit more?

7 Brief explanation. We would receive about 20 of the reports like

8 this every day, and throughout that whole period. When I was on duty at

9 the staff, I would receive similar documents. I saw many of them, perhaps

10 I can't recognise this particular one now, but a lot of them passed

11 through my hands. There was a large number of them.

12 What I'm not sure about is that if all of the documents were also

13 sent to us. This is something that I have my doubts about.

14 Q. All right. You satisfied my question, Mr. Negovetic.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question is not satisfied.

16 Sir, your statement and the part of that statement which resulted

17 in this number of documents being tendered into evidence, states that:

18 However, I have impression that information we received was significantly

19 filtered.

20 What do you mean by that?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That some of the documents were not

22 shown to all members of the forward command post of the staff in Zenica.

23 That is my impression, that, for example, I never saw a document relating

24 to combat actions that resulted in the capture of Croatian civilians in

25 the village of Mehurici, for example. That report I never did see.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. So what do you mean by this statement

2 is that you did not receive -- you have the impression that you did not

3 receive reports about everything that was taking place. Is that what you

4 meant?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I heard about the event --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you did not mean that the information you

7 received was filtered. In other words, the information you received did

8 not -- was not comprehensive enough by the time it reached you to be the

9 same as it was when it was first compiled. There's a difference

10 between -- you see, when you say the information was filtered is that you

11 say you do receive the information but the information you are getting has

12 details left out. That's not what you mean. What you mean is, you did

13 not receive all the information that you could have received, or you

14 should have received.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be precise, documents that we

16 received were the documents that we received. My impression, however, was

17 that we did not receive all the documents that were sent to Sarajevo.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I think that makes a

19 difference to -- from what you have said in the statement. Thank you.

20 You may proceed, Mr. Robson.

21 MR. ROBSON: Thank you.

22 Q. Just touching on that last answer, Mr. Negovetic. The reports

23 that we just looked at over that period of time shows that information was

24 going equally to Sarajevo and to Zenica. On what basis do you make the

25 suggestion that you did not receive all the documents that were sent to

1 Sarajevo? Do have you some specific information --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not what the witness said. He hasn't said

3 that he didn't receive all the information that was sent to Sarajevo. He

4 says they did not receive all the information.

5 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I was just quoting the last part of his

6 response.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see that. Okay.

8 MR. ROBSON:

9 Q. So, Mr. Negovetic, do you have any basis upon which to claim that

10 all the documents that were sent to Sarajevo did not go to Zenica?

11 A. It's difficult to provide any kind of specific proof, but I did

12 hear about some events in talks with my colleagues or even reading the

13 paper, but there was no sign of that in documents that we received. It

14 doesn't mean that I saw each document with my own eyes. I saw the

15 documents only when I was on duty at the operation centre, approximately

16 once a week. Other documents were read to us in our morning briefings. I

17 didn't actually look at them myself. Again, I say there were events that

18 I never saw actually mentioned in documents.

19 Q. And is it fair to say that you are making an assumption that

20 additional information was sent uniquely to Sarajevo, but in fact you

21 don't know whether or not that was the case?

22 A. Yes, I assume something like that.

23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would like to ask a question

24 about this, if I may.

25 We have been speaking about a number of events about which you

1 received no reports in Zenica. What I would like you to specify is

2 whether you heard about these events through someone who was a member of

3 the Supreme Command and who stayed in Sarajevo, or else only from the

4 media.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, I didn't have contacts

6 with members of the command in Sarajevo, only with those at the forward

7 command post. Some of them had more information from sources other than

8 the regular combat reports. We had the formal and informal meetings.

9 Formal meetings involved the reading of the documents, we commented upon

10 the documents and then possibly gave suggestions; and informal meetings

11 where we discussed the situation in general and various events.

12 In this way, I learned some information that I was unable to learn

13 from regular reports. What made me suspicious the most, what in fact made

14 me form this impression was that I never saw any of the reports relating

15 to the events that I witnessed in the village of Mehurici. I never saw

16 formally or heard formally of any document relating to the combat

17 activities in the course of which 247 civilians were captured in and

18 around the village of Mehurici. This is one example, based on which I

19 concluded that not all the information reached me or at least not all the

20 information was accessible to me. However, other individuals talked about

21 this event.

22 That's my answer.

23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Another thing, but you do know

24 whether concerning that particular event, i.e., the 247 civilians that you

25 were aware of, you don't know whether or not this was reported to

1 Sarajevo.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about that.

3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 MR. ROBSON:

5 Q. Now, in your statement, Mr. Negovetic, you say all strategic

6 decisions were made in Sarajevo and we were barely informed about them.

7 Now, earlier on in your testimony we ascertained that the work of

8 the forward command post was concerned with monitoring and commanding

9 within Central Bosnia. Would you agree with me that there would have been

10 no need and it wouldn't have made sense for the forward command post to be

11 concerned with decisions taken in Sarajevo that related to areas outside

12 of Central Bosnia?

13 A. Yes, that makes sense.

14 Q. Now, concerning the area of Bosnia which the forward command post

15 was responsible for dealing with, I'd like to show you some documents.

16 MR. ROBSON: And, Your Honours, if we could go into private

17 session at this stage.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber move into private session.

19 [Private session]

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15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

17 MR. ROBSON:

18 Q. Am I correct in saying that whilst you were at the forward command

19 post the bulk of your work related to carrying out these duties on

20 checking that units were prepared for chemical and biological attacks?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. However, at some point you explain that you were appointed to a

23 joint humanitarian commission for monitoring release of all prisoners and

24 in paragraph 15 you say that the Supreme commander General Delic appointed

25 you to the commission.

1 Before I actually ask you about the commission itself, again, a

2 matter of terminology, would you agree that the Supreme commander was in

3 fact the president of the Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic?

4 A. Yes. Again, that's down to my imprecision in the English

5 language.

6 Q. And the role that General Delic held was in fact the commander of

7 the Supreme Command Staff?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Now, in that same paragraph you discuss what you refer to as the

10 Delic-Petkovic agreement, and what I propose is that after the break we'll

11 come back and I'll ask you some more questions about that agreement.

12 MR. ROBSON: So, Your Honours, if we could perhaps take a break at

13 this moment in time.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. We'll take a break and come back at

15 4.00.

16 Court adjourned.

17 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.

20 MR. ROBSON: If we could take a look at the document establishing

21 the joint humanitarian commission. Please, could document D757 be brought

22 up on the screen.

23 Q. Now, Mr. Negovetic, this document is a little bit complicated

24 because what we can see at the top of the page is that this is a document

25 sent by the commander of the 3rd Corps, Enver Hadzihasanovic, dated the

1 12th of June, 1993, and below we can see that he is forwarding an order

2 from another person.

3 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, perhaps if we could go into private

4 session at this moment.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

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13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 MR. ROBSON: In the English version, it's page 1 and the second

16 paragraph I'm interested in, and in the B/C/S, it's page 2.

17 Q. And, Mr. Negovetic, I'm interested in the paragraph which begins:

18 "We arrived Skradno from the direction of Zenica ..."

19 It's --

20 A. [No interpretation]

21 Q. So if we look down through your diary, and first of all, perhaps I

22 can ask you this. Do you recall when you prepared this diary extract?

23 Would it have been the 23rd of June that you prepared it, or would it have

24 been a day or so later?

25 A. Whenever I was able to, in the evening, I would write in my diary,

1 and this day, which was actually full of events, quite shocking events,

2 was something that I wrote about the next day. In the evening I was so

3 tired that I couldn't write, so this was written the following day.

4 Q. So we can say that this diary extract was written while events

5 were still fresh in your mind.

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. In connection with the people at Skradno, you say: "We were

8 surrounded by a large group of women, children and the elderly. Most of

9 them originally came from the village of Velika Bukovica which has been

10 completely torched." Velika Bukovica was a Bosnian Muslim village, is

11 that right?

12 A. Yes. Yes, according to its population, yes. I mean in view of

13 the refugees who had come from that village, yes. I had never seen that

14 village before and after I never saw it again. So I don't know what

15 happened, but judging by the refugees I assumed that it was a Muslim

16 inhabited village.

17 Q. Did you actually see for yourself that it had been torched or was

18 that something that somebody told you?

19 A. That's what the people that we talked to, people that we met there

20 told us, the refugees.

21 Q. And the village had been completely torched during the HVO attack

22 on it; is that correct?

23 A. I really cannot remember exactly how the combat proceeded. I

24 can't remember exactly what was going on and even if I did see a document

25 about that before or right now, I really cannot remember.

1 Q. Now, earlier on during the cross-examination we looked at a

2 document that said that civilians from the village were being detained by

3 the HVO. In Skradno village, in your diary, you describe how these

4 civilians were living in a kind of ghetto and you say: "They can move

5 freely within the village but they cannot leave the village, not even to

6 visit a doctor or go shopping."

7 Would you agree with me that the HVO was effectively keeping these

8 people as prisoners against their free will?

9 A. Yes, that is quite correct. I can also add that they kept this

10 village as a kind of model village for foreigners, how well they were

11 treating people who could cultivate the land and live in their houses. I

12 think this is where they brought all these different international

13 delegations to show them but actually these people were practically living

14 like prisoners.

15 Q. Unfortunately, for those people -- sorry, fortunately for those

16 people who you saw in the village you were able to negotiate their

17 exchange on the 24th of June, and that was with the civilians that were

18 being held in Mehurici. Is that right?

19 A. I informed -- I went to the Red Cross centre and informed them

20 about these events. I think it was beyond our abilities to do anything

21 about that, about any of these people, and as far as I'm concerned it was

22 my biggest challenge in the war. I didn't in any way wish to be directly

23 involved in the exchange of prisoners because I thought that that was a

24 typical example of ethnic cleansing and I did not want to be accused one

25 day of being organised or being a part of the organisation team for these

1 exchanges. But I went to the Red Cross centre and asked them to do

2 something and they did; they organised an exchange between the two for the

3 people of Mehurici to be freed and to cross over into HVO-controlled

4 territory and for the people from Skradno to move into the territory under

5 the control of the armija.

6 Q. So just so I'm clear about that, rather than being the joint

7 commission that actually organised that exchange, it was the Red Cross,

8 you say?

9 A. In fact, the Red Cross put together Mr. Salko Beba, with -- and

10 Pero Skopjak who were from the Bosnian and the HVO side respectively and

11 the two of them actually organised the technical aspects of everything,

12 and the Red Cross assisted in this exchange by providing their vehicles.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do we understand do you say -- or let me back-off a

14 little bit. Am I right to say that the mandate of the commission to which

15 you belonged was precisely to negotiate the release of prisoners?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct. But it is one

17 thing to free prisoners from prison and for them to choose where they

18 would go and it's another thing to move people who live in one village to

19 another village; this is something quite different. And at that time I

20 was quite concerned that I would be doing something that would be against

21 the Geneva Conventions.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm just talking about the negotiation according to

23 the mandate of the commission, you were supposed to negotiate the release

24 of these people together with your other commission members?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat again, releasing people

1 from prisons and camps is --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just don't repeat. I'm asking you the question a

3 second time because your answer is not answering my question.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I'm repeating myself so that you can answer my

6 question directly.

7 Am I right, sir, that the mandate, the instructions to your

8 commission was to negotiate the release of prisoners of war on both

9 sides? You can answer me by saying yes or no.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. You then delegated that job to the Red

12 Cross?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You could say that, yes.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you abdicated your duties.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, as I said, it was a very big

16 moral dilemma for me.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Again, you can answer me yes or no. You abdicated

18 your duties, didn't you?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.

21 MR. ROBSON: According to your statement, after Skradno village

22 you then visited or travelled towards Mehurici and in the statement you

23 how for the first and only time you encountered foreign Mujahedin.

24 Just so I'm clear, there is the 23rd of June, 1993, that you

25 travelled to Mehurici village and encountered the Mujahedin. Is that

1 right?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Now, on that day, you travelled in an UNPROFOR vehicle, and you

4 described how the Mujahedin stopped the vehicle by pointing its weapons at

5 you. It's right to say that those foreign Mujahedin fighters that you saw

6 were well armed.

7 A. They had light infantry and anti-tank weapons. The light infantry

8 weapons that they had were automatic AK 47 rifles.

9 Q. From what you told us today it was about seven kilometres outside

10 of Mehurici that they stopped the vehicle. And in your diary, you mention

11 that the Mujahedin stopped you somewhere in the region of Guca Gora. Is

12 it correct that it was in the region of Guca Gora that you were stopped?

13 A. I don't know exactly where they stopped us because I was in the

14 vehicle and I couldn't really follow where we were going. Only when I

15 came out of the vehicle to negotiate with them, I was in an area that I

16 was not familiar with, I had never visited it before. I know that that

17 whole broader area is called Guca Gora, not just one place and that is

18 what I put down in the diary.

19 As for exactly where it happened, I assume, I don't know, maybe it

20 was a couple of kilometres later. We drove for another ten or 20 minutes

21 and reached Mehurici.

22 Q. Now, this was the first and only time that you actually saw

23 foreign Mujahedin. But had you ever heard there were different Mujahedin

24 groups around that area of Central Bosnia?

25 A. To this day, I don't know who exactly was there. The only thing

1 that I do know is that the -- the corps were foreigners but also our

2 people were also members of the El Mujahedin.

3 Q. You were able to continue with your journey, and you've explained

4 how -- when you got to Mehurici there was a further incident. And at

5 paragraph 33 of your statement you describe how when you got out of the

6 vehicle the Mujahedin surrounded the vehicle with offensive weapons ready

7 to use.

8 Salko Beba was with you at that moment; is that right?

9 A. As I was observing the events, the battalion commander of the

10 306th Brigade was with me. Salko Beba was not close to me. He was

11 somewhere near me. I didn't really see him that much, other than at our

12 regular meeting that took place after that incident.

13 Q. Just considering Salko Beba for a moment, was he somebody that you

14 knew? Was he somebody that you had met prior to the 23rd of June?

15 A. No, the first time I met him was in Travnik that day, and also

16 when we went to visit the OG-7. I never heard of him before that then.

17 Q. You have referred to him as being a member of OG Zapad, OG West.

18 Would you agree with me that in fact Salko Beba worked for OG Bosanski

19 Krajina?

20 A. It is possible, but it was strange that he was there in Operations

21 Group West, and I didn't think that he belonged there, but somebody said

22 that he was in intelligence -- actually, no, that he was in charge of

23 security in that area.

24 I don't know exactly which unit he belonged to by establishment.

25 I really don't know.

1 Q. And earlier in your evidence when you were asked questions by the

2 Prosecutor, you said that you met Salko Beba in OG Zapad in Travnik.

3 Would you agree with me that OG Zapad is in fact based in Bugojno?

4 A. It's possible. This is something that I put in my diary. What I

5 actually said in my statement is based on things from my diary, so if I

6 made a mistake, it means that I made a mistake in the diary and I don't

7 know why. I mean, that is something that is a bit odd.

8 Q. And just to clarify, it was the command of OG Zapad that I was

9 putting to you was in Bugojno.

10 Now, what you've said in your statement about this moment in time

11 and it's at paragraph 28, is that: "It looked to me that the foreign

12 fighters acted on their own."

13 So amongst you present in Mehurici were members of the 306th

14 Brigade, somebody from the local operations group, and yourself and

15 Fadil Alihodzic, who were members of the Supreme Command Staff.

16 Would you agree with me that none of you could command the

17 Mujahedin that you met with?

18 A. We definitely did not in any way. The two of us members of the

19 Supreme Command Staff, they did not respect. The first time they

20 intercepted us they behaved in a hostile manner even though we were

21 wearing Bosnian army uniforms.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just interrupt before I lose this page. At

23 line 16, page 51, Mr. Robson you said: "And earlier in your evidence when

24 you were asked questions by the Prosecutor you said that you met Salko

25 Beba in OG Zapad in Travnik. Would you agree with me that OG Zapad is in

1 fact based in Bugojno?" And then the witness gave an answer and then you

2 said: "And just to clarify, it was the command of OG Zapad that is --"

3 I'm sorry, the English here is typed incorrectly. It was the command of

4 OG Zapad that I was putting to you was in Bugojno.

5 What were you saying there?

6 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I was making a clarification that it was

7 the command of OG Zapad that we were suggesting was based in Bugojno.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not Salko Beba.

9 MR. ROBSON: That's correct. The command of OG Zapad and not

10 Salko Beba.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what is the position of the -- of the Defence

12 about Salko Beba? Was he part of OG Zapad or was he part of something

13 else.

14 MR. ROBSON: The Defence's position is that he was a member of OG

15 Bosanska Krajina.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

17 MR. ROBSON: So, Your Honour, it's just a matter -- the purpose of

18 asking those questions is just to really establish what the witness knew

19 of Salko Beba and whether he had an erroneous recollection of that

20 person's details.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, and for the Court to be satisfied that we have

22 established that his recollection is erroneous it must understand what

23 your position is and what he's saying.

24 MR. ROBSON: Yes.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed.

1 MR. ROBSON: Thank you.

2 Q. Mr. Negovetic, in paragraph 37 of your statement you say that you

3 went into the room where the civilians were being kept. You also say that

4 the prisoners were being supervised by the Bosnian army. Would you agree

5 with me that it was municipal civilian protection staff that was

6 responsible for looking after the civilians at the school?

7 A. Nobody told me anything to that effect. What I was told was that

8 the military police of the 306th Brigade was taking care of that. That's

9 what I was told.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. I didn't double-check that piece of information.

12 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, if we could please bring Defence

13 document up on the screen. It is it D760.

14 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, before we are moving to the next

15 document the Prosecution would just like to know whether the document just

16 shown to the witness, D748, is tendered by the Defence.

17 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, we will be, yes, please, if it could be

18 admitted into evidence. The reason I didn't ask is that I will be

19 returning back to this document. But if it could be admitted at this

20 stage.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can come back to it as an exhibit already. The

22 document D748 is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

23 exhibit number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 990, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

1 Yes, Mr. Robson.

2 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, this is the correct B/C/S version of

3 the document that I'm after, and here is the English.

4 Q. So this is the cover page, Mr. Negovetic. Just to explain, this

5 is a series of documents. I don't wish to take up the Court's time going

6 through every page. But can you see that the cover page states: Request

7 to initiate proceedings, against two named persons?

8 A. Yes, I can see that.

9 Q. And at the top we can see that this bears a stamp which speaks of

10 the Travnik municipality civilian protection staff.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, I'd like to refer to -- I believe it's page number 4 in the

13 English version, and in the B/C/S -- this is the correct page. In the

14 B/C/S it should be page 4 as well.

15 Could you confirm that what we see here is a letter dated the 23rd

16 of June, 1993, from the commander of the Travnik municipality, municipal

17 civilian protection staff and it's addressed to the Travnik municipal

18 assembly?

19 A. Yes, I can see that.

20 Q. And the first part of this letter, under the heading states: "In

21 the course of transport of food for refugees in Mehurici and Gluha

22 Bukovica and persons in the primary school, the following supplies

23 disappeared."

24 Would agree with me that what this document shows is that the

25 municipal civilian protection staff had a responsibility for caring for

1 those persons who were in the primary school in Mehurici?

2 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, we have listened to the course of the

3 introduction of the document and so on, what is unclear to us is what the

4 relationship between the witness and this particular document should be.

5 It is a document from the municipal staff and if I understood it

6 correctly, it is sent to another civilian organ so according to us, it has

7 not passed the witness's desk. And we just don't understand at this point

8 in time, when such questions are asked, what the relationship between the

9 witness and this document should be.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.

11 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, this witness attended at Mehurici. He

12 is purporting to tell the Court things that he saw, things that he learned

13 and on a number of occasions this witness has changed his version. He has

14 accepted that in hindsight things were rather different from how he has

15 stated them in his statement. And, Your Honour, I would suggest that this

16 is a similar situation, that we have the opportunity to put the contents

17 of this document to the witness to see if he is able to comment, and --

18 and I believe it is a matter that we can look at it in the -- in due

19 course at the right moment. But I don't believe it is correct for the

20 Prosecution to stand up and object to us asking questions at this moment.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see you raise your neck, Mr. Neuner. Are you

22 attempting to stand up?

23 MR. NEUNER: I could.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no, no. I'm not saying you should. Do you

25 want to stand up?

1 MR. NEUNER: Our position would be, Your Honours, this is a

2 document which may deal with logistics. The witness have -- has told the

3 Chamber what he has learned on the occasion of his visit to Mehurici; he

4 was told that the military police was performing a certain job. And we

5 don't understand that the witness who was not travelling there in relation

6 to logistical issue should comment upon an issue which deals with the

7 supply of items such as litres of oil and other things, how he should be

8 in a position to discuss this.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, Mr. Robson, if I may come in here, your

10 introduction of this document, as I understood your train of thought was

11 to try to disprove that the military police were in charge but that the

12 civilian police were in charge or that the municipal police were in

13 charge. I'm not quite sure how this document does disprove that. It

14 does -- it does prove one thing, that the municipal police were also

15 involved in the exercise. I'm not sure whether it takes us much further

16 than that.

17 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, you have touched on the correct point.

18 It's been suggested that only the Bosnian army was involved in the care

19 and what we're trying to show is -- through these documents is that it was

20 uniquely the army.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's be quite clear what was said. Was it said

22 that only the army was involved or was it said that the military police

23 were involved, from the witness. I don't remember him using the word

24 "only".

25 MR. ROBSON:

1 Q. Mr. Negovetic, according to your statement and I don't have the

2 paragraph number in front of me, I believe you said it was the military

3 police of the ARBiH that was --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what he was told when he was there. That's

5 what he said.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I was told but based on

7 what I was able to see there, I didn't see anybody else in the school

8 building other than members of the Bosnian army who were present on the

9 ground floor and on the first floor. So I didn't see anybody else but

10 them, and I was told that it was the military police of the 306th Brigade

11 that was taking care of them.

12 MR. ROBSON:

13 Q. Do you exclude the possibility that it was the civilian police

14 that was charged with looking after these civilians in the school, and

15 that the Bosnian army was giving assistance to them --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think you're asking the witness to speculate now,

17 Mr. Robson.

18 MR. ROBSON: Fair enough, Your Honour.

19 Your Honour, I would seek still to -- attempt to touch upon this

20 document to see whether it is capable of being admitted.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure -- let's just understand first

22 what the purpose of Mr. Neuner's objection was because we have to rule on

23 that.

24 MR. NEUNER: The purpose of my objection was to find out the link

25 between the witness and the document.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Have you found it now?

2 MR. NEUNER: It can be marked for identification, Your Honours.

3 And the Defence is invited to maybe call another witness during the course

4 of their case which can shed further light on this.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You mean another witness will come and establish

6 the link between this document and this witness?

7 MR. NEUNER: Between this document and the fact who was

8 responsible for running the refugee --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do they need this document to prove that fact?

10 That witness can just come and tell us who was running.

11 MR. NEUNER: I myself don't understand why this particular

12 document is being shown to this witness.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is your objection, sir?

14 MR. NEUNER: The link between the witness and the document, since

15 this document has not passed the witness as desk.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And are you objecting to the tendering of this

17 document into evidence?

18 MR. NEUNER: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's better. You said you're objecting to the

20 link. Be clear.

21 Mr. Robson, there is an objection to the tendering of the

22 document.

23 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I will withdraw the document and move

24 on.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed.

1 MR. ROBSON: But if we could have it please marked for

2 identification.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon.

4 MR. ROBSON: Yes. I apologise. I don't withdraw the document.

5 What I would do is I would please ask that it be marked for identification

6 and we'll see if we can deal with it during the Defence case.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. The document is marked for

8 identification. May it please be given an exhibit number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI 991, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 MR. ROBSON:

12 Q. Mr. Negovetic, I would like to return to what you have told us

13 about what you saw while were at the school.

14 In your statement, you have explained to us that you met with the

15 local army battalion commander who was based in that village; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes. That's how he introduced himself to me.

18 Q. Okay. You have also told us about an incident that occurred

19 outside the school involving the Mujahedin. What I'd like to do is come

20 back to your diary dealing with the events on the 23rd of June, 1993.

21 MR. ROBSON: If we could please bring that document back up. It

22 is Exhibit 999, and it's page 2 that I'm interested in.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say Exhibit 999? We haven't reached that

24 number yet, sir, of exhibits.

25 MR. ROBSON: I apologise, it's 990.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MR. ROBSON:

3 Q. So this is your diary which you've told us was written while

4 events were still fresh in your memory.

5 If you can look at the -- if we could look at the -- it's the page

6 after in the English, please. And it's the third paragraph that I'm

7 interested in, which begins: "We arrived Mehurici."

8 In the B/C/S version it is the next page as well.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just for the purposes of clarity about exhibits,

10 was Exhibit 990 not an extract from this diary?

11 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now you're looking at some other part of the diary

13 which is not part of Exhibit 990.

14 MR. ROBSON: Exhibit 990 is a document which comprises three pages

15 in English and it deals solely with the events on the 23rd of June, 1993.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And it includes this page that you're --

17 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 MR. ROBSON:

20 Q. So what this says is: "We arrived in Mehurici after almost an

21 hour, an hour of uncomfortable drive. As soon as we left the vehicles and

22 entered the school accommodating Croat refugees, a commotion began. A

23 group of Mujahedin who suddenly appeared out of nowhere surrounded the

24 UNPROFOR armed personnel carriers and pointed the anti-armour weapons."

25 Now, in your testimony a little earlier today what you said was

1 when you entered the school the first thing you saw was Mujahedin coming

2 down the stairs. That contradicts the version that we see here in your

3 diary. Can you explain for us why we have the two different versions of

4 events?

5 A. I don't see the difference. If all at once you see someone coming

6 down the stairs in a building you never entered before, that can be

7 described as all of sudden, out of nowhere, but to be specific, yes, I saw

8 them coming down the stairs. This was something that happened to me

9 suddenly. It was surprising and shocking and I may have described it in a

10 way that was perhaps literally, but the truth is that I saw them with my

11 own eyes coming down the stairs. I didn't expect to see them there to

12 begin with.

13 Q. But you don't mention anything in the diary about them coming down

14 the stairs. Let me ask you this: Do you remember where the vehicles were

15 parked when you got out and made your way towards the school? Were they

16 parked in the middle of the street?

17 A. They were parked in the school yard, several dozen metres away

18 from the gate leading to the school yard.

19 Q. Because the way that I certainly read your statement is that this

20 group of Mujahedin who suddenly appeared out of nowhere and surrounded the

21 UNPROFOR armoured vehicles, it sounds as though that they were outside of

22 the school when they suddenly appeared.

23 A. No. They had come out of the school. I still have this image

24 vivid in my mind, and I am not mistaken there. I saw them coming down the

25 stairs, carrying weapons. I didn't know what their intention was. They

1 went past me outside, whereas I went upstairs to one of the classrooms

2 where I observed what was going on out of one of the windows there.

3 Q. Okay. Now, let me move to something else that you talk about in

4 your diary.

5 You have told us today that these Mujahedin were stationed in the

6 school on the first floor. But if we can look at the next paragraph down

7 in your diary, it's on this page. And it's the paragraph that begins:

8 "After brief persuasion, the Mujahedin went away."

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And what this says here, and you've recorded it in your diary:

11 "Later on the army battalion commander told me just between him and me,

12 that those Mujahedin were great evil for the area. They are accommodated

13 there in the surrounding of Mehuric and some 60 of them, together with

14 local Muslim extremists form a death brigade."

15 So here you have recorded what you were told by the battalion

16 commander, that those Mujahedin were not accommodated in the school, but

17 they were in the surrounding area. Is that right?

18 A. That's what he told me. And I described what I saw with my own

19 eyes.

20 Q. See, in this diary extract and we can look at it in detail, if

21 necessary, at no place do you mention that the Mujahedin were accommodated

22 in the school. Could it be that your recollection perhaps is not so clear

23 and what you recorded in your diary while events were still fresh in your

24 mind is the accurate version; in other words, that the Mujahedin were

25 accommodated in the surrounding area?

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure I understand this

2 line of questioning. The fact that people are accommodated in surrounding

3 area doesn't preclude their presence in a school at a particular time.

4 And the witness has not -- has not testified that they were accommodated

5 in the school. He says he saw them come down the stairs in the school.

6 He doesn't -- at least what he has been saying to us today. He saw them

7 come down. Where they are accommodated, we don't know.

8 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, if it was so simple, I wouldn't be

9 elaborating the point. Within paragraph 35 of the statement it states:

10 "I noticed that that both the Bosnian army and Mujahedin were stationed in

11 the same school," so that is the point that I'm dealing with.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I won't take issue with the word "stationed."

14 Go ahead.

15 MR. ROBSON:

16 Q. So, Mr. Negovetic, I was trying to ask you about the discrepancy

17 between what was recorded in your diary, which was made while events were

18 still fresh in your mind and the statement that you prepared not so long

19 ago.

20 A. What's the question?

21 Q. Let me put it this way. I'm not disputing that you saw Mujahedin

22 there at the school. Could it be that you are wrong when you concluded

23 that the Mujahedin were stationed at the school and could it be the case

24 that in fact as the local army battalion commander explained to you, those

25 Mujahedin were accommodated in the surroundings -- or in the surrounding

1 of Mehurici?

2 A. First, I remember them absolutely very well, that they came down

3 the stairs. This image remained stuck in my mind. You know how sometimes

4 certain shocking things that you witness remain in your -- remains in your

5 mind, with the weapons. And this conclusion comes as a result of that,

6 because if a unit comes rushing out of a place, then the natural

7 conclusion is that they are billeted there. I saw some writings in Arabic

8 on the wall running along the stairs. Everything was logically leading me

9 to conclude that they were indeed stationed there and that's why I wrote

10 that in my statement.

11 Q. Just so I understand that clearly, the basis of your -- for you

12 concluding that they were stationed at the school was because you saw a

13 number of Mujahedin coming down the stairs.

14 A. [Previous translation continues] ... Weapons. Yes.

15 Q. Now, Mr. Negovetic, the transcript captured the word weapons

16 there. I'm not whether you misunderstood my question or not. Perhaps I

17 better repeat it. Is it right that for the basis for you concluding that

18 the Mujahedin were stationed at the school was because you saw a number of

19 Mujahedin coming down the stairs?

20 A. I repeat. I saw them come out with weapons and if you see

21 somebody coming out of a place with weapons then that's the basis for a

22 conclusion that they are stationed there. Had they stormed out without

23 weapons, well, then -- but the important thing is to say that they came

24 out with weapons, and on the basis of that one concludes that they are

25 stationed there.

1 Q. Now, in paragraph 36 of your statement you say that a commander of

2 the Bosnian military unit in Mehurici told you that the Mujahedin harassed

3 and abused Muslim civilians and he was ready to attack if the Supreme

4 Command commanded them to.

5 I'd like to ask you about this, again by referring to your diary.

6 MR. ROBSON: And it's at page 3 of the diary that I'm interested

7 in, in the English version.

8 I apologise. If we can remain on this page for just a moment, we

9 will just deal with the last sentence on this page. I don't know if we

10 have the corresponding part in the B/C/S version.

11 Q. So if we look at this last paragraph, here you relate the

12 conversation that you had with the local commander and he talks about the

13 Mujahedin and he says: "They are attempting to introduce the Shariah law

14 in the territory. They are ..."

15 MR. ROBSON: And if we could look on to the next page in English.

16 So they are attempting to introduce the Shariah law in the territory they

17 are staying in, however, for whatever reasons the 3rd Corps command does

18 not want to have a showdown with that death brigade.

19 So according to the diary, Mr. Negovetic, the commander referred

20 to the 3rd Corps and not the Supreme Command. And I have looked through

21 this diary and for that entire day there's no mention of the Supreme

22 Command or Supreme Command Staff. Would you agree with me that it is more

23 likely that the local commander used the words that you recorded in the

24 diary at the time?

25 A. Yes. I described here what I had heard from him. He was very

1 upset at that incident and very angry. Obviously he was very

2 uncomfortable with the entire situation and that was probably the reason

3 why he told me all that.

4 Q. And from what the commander told you, it's clear that he did not

5 consider the Mujahedin to be allies of the Bosnian army or of any use to

6 the army; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, I don't have too many more questions,

9 but perhaps if we could take the break now, please.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: We shall indeed take the break now and come back at

11 quarter to 6.00.

12 Court adjourned.

13 --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 5.46 p.m.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.

16 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Negovetic, in your statement, when you are describing what

18 happened while you were in Mehurici village, you say: "The story we heard

19 there from the local commander was that Mujahedins attacked a Croat

20 village nearby, killed some of the inhabitants and arrested survivors."

21 Now, according to the proofing note that you made with the

22 Prosecution when you saw the Prosecutor yesterday, the 14th of January,

23 you changed this part of your statement. Is that correct? Is it the case

24 that you realised that it wasn't the local commander that gave you this

25 piece of information?

1 A. Yes, in the briefest possible way put, yes.

2 Q. And so, is it the case that, having arrived in The Hague when you

3 thought again over the facts of what had happened, you came to the

4 conclusion that it was Salko Beba who told you that piece of information

5 contained in paragraph 38?

6 A. The following is true. I understood that that item in the

7 statement did not actually correspond to the facts right from the

8 beginning, so I was thinking, if I should sign the statement or not, but,

9 it seemed to me that that part could be interpreted in various ways. It

10 could be taken to mean -- I didn't compose that statement; I responded to

11 questions that were sent to me by the investigator and I -- and memos that

12 he sent me. He actually drafted the entire statement on the basis of my

13 answers, and it seems to me that the way it was drafted does not

14 correspond exactly to what I intended to say, but I didn't want to make

15 anything of it. I was thinking should I sign it or should I not sign it,

16 but I still I signed it fully aware that that paragraph, 38, in fact is

17 just repeating what I said before, that I had heard this thing from Salko

18 Beba. Local commander to me meant Mr. Salko Beba, although I'm not even

19 sure to this day exactly what his function was. So that is the brief

20 story of this paragraph.

21 And when I came here I had a conversation with the Prosecutor and

22 I insisted that this be cleared up.

23 Q. Okay. So you have clarified paragraph 38, that the information

24 contained in there is not correct. But if I can ask you this: Earlier on

25 in your testimony today I showed you an order establishing the joint

1 commission, and you accepted that part of your duties, as a member of that

2 commission, included identifying criminals in cooperation with the

3 military Prosecutor's office and the military court.

4 Now, no matter who the source of this information was, you've said

5 that you heard that Mujahedin attacked the village, killed some

6 inhabitants and arrested some survivors. Did you take steps to contact a

7 military Prosecutor's office to inform them of what you had learnt?

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted). We felt that the best thing would

11 be to inform -- well, the scale of this event seemed so large that it

12 seemed to us that it was best if we informed the Supreme Command or the

13 Supreme Command Staff about it.

14 Q. So you've told us you informed General Siber. You've accepted

15 that you had an obligation to cooperate with the local military

16 Prosecutor's office. Did it ever cross your mind to get in contact with

17 the Military Prosecutor?

18 A. I must admit that it did not, no.

19 Q. Okay. In paragraph 39 of your statement you talk about

20 information that you gather --

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 MR. ROBSON:

25 Q. Can you answer that, Mr. Negovetic?

1 A. First, we informed him verbally, as soon as we returned from

2 Mehurici, Mr. Fadil Alihodzic and myself informed him and then we talked

3 about it, and he believed, I mean, his suggestion was that I write a

4 draft -- I'm sorry, I'm forgetting the words of our language. A draft,

5 and then the next day that we discuss it and then that this is sent to the

6 Supreme Command, that this would be the best reaction to this report, I

7 mean, to what we saw and experienced there.

8 Excuse me.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: And what happened then?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that what I said indicates

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 MR. ROBSON: I think the turn of questions took a bit of an

6 unexpected turn. So I apologise and we should have, perhaps, jumped into

7 private session a little sooner.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is there anything that you suggest should be

9 redacted?

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

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23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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11 Pages 6838-6844 redacted. Private session

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1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 Yes, Mr. Robson.

10 [Videotape played]

11 MR. ROBSON:

12 Q. Mr. Negovetic, we heard from the journalist that asked the

13 question that that press conference took place 18 months after the start

14 of the war, and we heard General Delic's response to the question and how

15 he made it clear that he wanted a multi-ethnic Republic of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Would you agree with me that up until the end of the war, despite

18 all the difficulties, there were Serbs and Croats, or men of Serb and

19 Croat ethnicity that remained within the Bosnian army?

20 A. That's true, but not for the Supreme Staff. I believe I was the

21 last one to be there. When I returned from Zenica, I was transferred to

22 an isolated post which had nothing to do with the work of the Supreme

23 Staff.

24 Q. We saw at the table that General Divjak was present. He remained

25 a deputy commander of the Supreme Command Staff until the end of the war,

1 did he not?

2 A. I don't remember this exactly at this time. I believe he was

3 retired before, but I will not give you a yes or no answer because I don't

4 know; however, I know that (redacted) was appointed a military attache in

5 Switzerland, that Mr. Divjak was retired or something else, but except for

6 the two of them, I was the last one to have been part of the active

7 operative --

8 MR. NEUNER: I'm sorry to interrupt but I see there is a technical

9 problem. The answer could not be recorded.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Sorry, can we just wait for the stenographer

11 to sort her problems out.

12 [Technical difficulty]

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to repeat the answer that you were

14 saying just before we stopped or do you want the question put to you or do

15 you want to read it there and try to answer it again, sir?

16 The question put to you was: "We saw at the table that

17 General Divjak was present. He remained a deputy commander of the Supreme

18 Command Staff until the end of the war, did he not?"

19 That was the question.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer is, I can't remember if

21 he remained there until the end of the war. That's what I meant. I can't

22 answer the question.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just for the record, if I might interrupt,

24 Mr. Robson, what ethnic group do you belong to, sir?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Croat.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: And General Divjak?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

4 You may proceed.

5 MR. ROBSON:

6 Q. Mr. Negovetic, you mention that -- you mentioned something along

7 the lines of the -- within the Supreme Command Staff you did not see

8 members of other ethnicity remaining within that organisation. And I

9 apologise if I've misphrased your response.

10 Would you agree with me, though, that within the Supreme Command

11 Staff, until the end of the war, Ivan Brigic served as the chief of the

12 administration for morale and he - I'm told the pronunciation is Brigic -

13 and he is a man of Croatian ethnicity, Croat ethnicity?

14 A. I don't know the answer to that question. I can only speak of the

15 operational section, about the administration of services and I'm sure

16 that in that segment there were none. When I returned from Zenica, I

17 don't recall meeting any one of them there. I do recall Mr. Brigic. He

18 was a professor and he probably performed that function, but to me he

19 appeared more of a civilian than a soldier. But I'm not sure.

20 Q. And finally, how about Zeljko Grubesic? He was a man who served

21 in the cabinet of General Delic and he also was a man of Croat ethnicity.

22 Are you aware of him?

23 A. I don't remember. I don't know.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 MR. ROBSON: I have no further questions.

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, Mr. Robson, before you leave the

2 witness, I'm unsure about the theme and the importance of this last line

3 of questioning. And I -- because I'm sitting back with the impression

4 that what the witness is really saying is that despite the good intentions

5 expressed by General Delic and others to have a multi-ethnic leadership of

6 the army, despite all those good intentions, nevertheless, the leadership

7 ended up being ethnically Muslim or overwhelmingly Muslim, and I want to

8 just have the witness clarify --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: And why was that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to find a brief answer,

12 but it's hard.

13 First of all, in the middle of the war, the division of Bosnia and

14 the division of the different ethnic groups became deeper and deeper. And

15 I must say that at the start of the war some people from the armija

16 deserted into the HVO; the erosion of the armija probably started with

17 that process. That is one part of the answer. The other one is that

18 within the armija itself and within the staff of the Supreme Command, very

19 extremist individuals emerges with their convictions. I believe that

20 General Bijajac [phoen] stated in my presence, We have to break free or we

21 have to cleanse the Armija of the Serb and Croat elements. I heard him

22 utter these words in my presence whilst I was still in the administration,

23 not of services but in the administration of schools. He was quite

24 extremist. What sort of influence he wielded in the Armija, I don't know;

25 but I believe that these people contributed greatly to the army being

1 mono-ethnic. It wasn't of course also due to them. The situation was

2 very complex it all ended up with a full division.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: How unfortunate. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any re-examination, Mr. Neuner?

5 Yes, Mr. Robson.

6 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, please could -- two things. Please

7 could the video be admitted into evidence, first of all.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: VD-16 is admitted into evidence. Is it under seal

9 or not? No, it's not under seal. Could it please be given an exhibit

10 number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 993, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

13 MR. ROBSON: And also I note that the record as I look at my

14 colleague's screen it's page 3, line 5, on this computer screen, doesn't

15 accurately reflect the witness's answer. I just hope that it can be

16 rectified. It seems ...

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where, sir, line five?

18 MR. ROBSON: Page 3, line 5, on the screen in front of my

19 colleague. It should -- it says something along the lines some people

20 from the armija diverted into the HOCK, the diversion probably started and

21 what the witness clearly stated was that some people deserted from the

22 army into the HVO. So, certainly, we hope that can be rectified in the

23 record.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I hope that it is rectified. Thank you

25 very much.

1 Mr. Neuner.

2 MR. NEUNER: I have just issue to address, Your Honours, with the

3 witness.

4 Re-examination by Mr. Neuner:

5 Q. And, Mr. Negovetic, it was a couple of times mentioned during the

6 cross-examination by my learned colleague, the question: Who in the

7 Supreme Command received information about your visit of the joint

8 humanitarian commission to Travnik and Mehurici and the information about

9 possible crimes connected on occasion of this visit to Travnik and

10 Mehurici.

11 And for the record, this was in relation to Exhibit 170, also in

12 relation to page 69 of today's transcript and page 74 of today's

13 transcript.

14 And before I go on, could we maybe move into private session

15 because I'm going to address some issues.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

17 [Private session]

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6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 I guess due to the lateness of the hour we're going to have to

10 stop at this stage.

11 Court adjourned to tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the same

12 courtroom.

13 Court adjourned.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

16 January, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.

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