1 Saturday, 9 February 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in court.
7 Mr. Registrar, become to you, too, and may you please call the
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
10 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-83-T, the
11 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.
13 And may we please have the appearances for today starting with
14 the Prosecution.
15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
16 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. Daryl Mundis
17 and Aditya Menon for the Prosecution, assisted by our case manager Alma
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And for the Defence.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May -- may I interrupt you, Madam Vidovic. We are
22 getting no interpretation through the English channel.
23 Can I find out from the interpreters. Do we have any problem?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Are you hear us now? Can you hear the
25 interpretation now?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can hear you now. Thank you very much, ma'am.
2 Madam Vidovic, would you please start all over again.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Good
4 morning to my learned friends from the Prosecution, to everyone in and
5 around the courtroom. On behalf of General Delic, Vasvija Vidovic with
6 case manager Lana Deljkic, legal assistant Sabina Dzubur, assisted today
7 with legal assistants OKO by Ms. Nina Kisic from the state court of
8 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 WITNESS: AJMAN AWAD [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to you, Mr. Awad. Mr. Awad,
13 yesterday before you started your testimony you made a declaration to
14 tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth. I just
15 remind you that you are still bound by that declaration today to tell the
16 truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth. Okay? Thank you
17 very much.
18 Mr. Mundis.
19 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Before I resume, I would
20 like to indicate on the record that following the adjournment yesterday,
21 we did meet with Madam Vidovic for the Defence and attempted to review
22 the tape that was played yesterday. Unfortunately, the Arabic part of
23 the tape was not really audible to the extent that it would be helpful or
24 useful, and so both parties following the review of that tape have
25 decided that we will not be returning to that issue. I just wanted to
1 indicate that because we -- we had discussed the possibility of that
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.
4 Do you confirm, Madam Vidovic?
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 Mr. Mundis.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
9 Examination by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]
10 Q. Mr. Awad, I'd like to now turn our attention to 1995. Can you
11 tell us, sir, whether the El Mujahedin Detachment was involved in any
12 combat operations in 1995?
13 A. Allow me before answering this question to ask for protection of
14 the Trial Chamber. Yesterday, before the beginning of the proceedings, I
15 made the solemn declaration that I would speak the truth, and I said at
16 the same time that I have come here to testify as a former member of the
17 El Mujahedin, but certainly not as the president of any kind of
19 Yesterday, in the news programme, the programme 1, she almost
20 jumped out of the screen, said, "Ajman Awad, president of the association
21 that rallies people of Afro-Asian origin is testifying in this case."
22 Somebody wishes intentionally to undermine the prestige I enjoy
23 among the Bosnian people, and I am asking for protection. I'm coming
24 here in my own name as a citizen, as an individual. You can read my
25 statement when -- in which I never mention that I was president of the
1 association. So I'm asking the Trial Chamber to protect me from the
2 media, that they should report correctly.
3 As for the detachment itself, it took part in three main
4 operations carried out during the summer of 1995 in the territory of
5 Zavidovici-Wadnic [as interpreted] theatre -- Zavidovici-Vozuca theatre
6 of war.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: We hear your request, Mr. Awad, and the Court
8 would like to place on record that at no stage has Mr. Awad stated that
9 he was president of any association, neither was it ever mentioned at any
10 stage in court yesterday, and any news reports that suggest that he was
11 president or is president of any association is incorrect, and we ask
12 those responsible for the incorrect reporting, if it is at all possible,
13 to make the necessary corrections. If there are any people from the
14 media in the gallery, if they still hope to -- to get the cooperation of
15 the Court as was being requested yesterday time and again between -- by
16 the media, we ask them also to show that cooperation by making sure that
17 they report correctly.
18 Okay. Let the record show that.
19 Thank you very much, Mr. Awad. You may proceed and answer the
20 question. You were busy answering the question that was put to you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. MUNDIS: And thank you to the Trial Chamber also for that
24 Q. Mr. Awad, you told us there were three main operations in 1995.
25 Can you please tell us the time periods --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. He was mentioning the areas where it took
2 place. I just wanted to a note of those areas, please.
3 MR. MUNDIS:
4 Q. Sir, can you -- can you repeat the areas where these three
5 operations took place in 1995.
6 A. In the area of the Zavidovici-Vozuca battlefield. Zavidovici and
8 Q. Mr. Awad, can you tell us, please, the time periods in 1995
9 during which these three operations took place?
10 A. Just a correction, please. My surname is Awad, not Ajwad. I
11 have to correct you a little.
12 The operations were carried out in the month of May, in July, and
13 in September 1995.
14 Q. Let's focus, first, Mr. Awad, on May 1995. Can you tell us, sir,
15 about the direction, if any, the detachment received with respect to
16 those operations?
17 A. As of 1994, when the detachment received orders to move from the
18 Teslic battlefield to Zavidovici-Vozuca battlefield, this order remained
19 in force until the execution of the assignment. So what we were saying
20 yesterday, that after the attack the detachment stayed there and
21 continued work with the reconnaissance and with the preparations, and
22 when the people who were in charge of the reconnaissance and the
23 preparations went, they saw that the attack could take place that then it
24 actually did take place. And this happened on the 27th of May, 1995.
25 Q. Sir, can you tell us what was the objective of this operation
1 that commenced on 27 May 1995?
2 A. The objective was to liberate three features in that area, 726,
3 702, and 706.
4 Q. Sir, who made the determination that those three features were
5 the -- were to be the objective of this 27 May 1995 operation?
6 A. The order came from the command of the 3rd Corps of the army of
7 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
8 Q. Can you tell us, sir, how that order was transmitted to the
9 detachment? How did you receive this order?
10 A. I don't remember exactly the form, whether it came in the form of
11 mail delivered at the gates of the detachment or through electronic media
12 or through Paket communication. I don't remember exactly. I didn't pay
13 much attention to that.
14 In any event, the order arrived for the detachment to move from
15 one area, from Sarici to Zavidovici, and to carry out the preparations
16 and then carry out the liberation of these three features.
17 Q. Can you tell us, sir, about any preparatory meetings that were
18 held prior to the commencement of the May 27, 1995, operation?
19 A. If we leave aside 1994, that is what happened then, there were at
20 least two meetings before the attack was carried out. We have been
21 mentioning the preparations, and the old order was in force, that is to
22 carry out the attack. And the participants who -- were to hold other
23 locations, but this particular attack was to be carried out by our
24 detachment only. We only had the assistance of the local unit that was
25 there on the front line and the assistance of manpower to carry the
1 wounded. They were work platoons and so on.
2 At the last meeting it was decided when the attack would be
3 launched. The particular date and hour was fixed for the attack.
4 Q. Let me ask you some follow-up questions about these two meetings.
5 Do you recall, sir, approximately when the first meeting was and where
6 that meeting was?
7 A. I cannot remember. Perhaps in the corps command. But the second
8 one was certainly in Zavidovici. Whether it was at the forward command
9 post or the division command I'm not quite sure, but in any case, it was
10 in the area. The first one was perhaps in the corps command, but I'm not
11 quite sure about that.
12 Q. Sir, do you recall, again focusing your attention on the first
13 meeting, do you recall who attended that meeting? Who was in attendance?
14 A. On the part of the detachment there was Abu Mali, the commander;
15 Muatez; I as the interpreter. On behalf the corps command there was
16 Sakib Mahmuljin.
17 If the meeting was held at the corps headquarters, then only
18 Sakib Mahmuljin was present, but I'm not 100 per cent sure where the
19 meeting was held. If it was in Zavidovici, then Hasanagic would have
20 been present as commander of the 35th Division.
21 Q. Let me ask you about the second meeting. Can you tell us
22 approximately when -- how -- how much time before the combat began that
23 meeting took place?
24 A. It may have been about two days before the attack, because it was
25 stated that the unit was ready for the attack, the date was fixed. Not
1 the hour, because -- we didn't fix the hour because everything depended
2 on the situation on the ground, whether it would be possible to do it at
3 4.00 or 5.00 or 6.00. Everything depended on the local situation.
4 Q. And, sir, can you tell us who attended this second meeting in the
5 end of May 1995, before the operations began on the 27th of May?
6 A. As far as I can remember, the corps commander was present and the
7 division commander. The commander of the 3rd Corps, Sakib Mahmuljin, and
8 the commander of the 35th Division, Fadil Hasanagic. Abu Mali was
9 present as the commander of the El Mujahedin, and Muatez, responsible for
10 military affairs, and I was present as the interpreter.
11 Q. Can you tell us, sir, once those operations commenced on 27 May
12 1995, where were you located at that time?
13 A. I was at the forward command post of the El Mujahedin Detachment,
14 and this post, I think it was called Gluha Bukva. I'm not quite sure.
15 Anyway, it was below or at the foot of feature 726. Above the village
16 called Livade and below the 726 feature. I was at the forward command
17 post there.
18 Q. Do you recall, sir, who else from the detachment was at that
19 forward command post?
20 A. The commander, Abu mail, myself and somebody in charge of
21 communications who was a member of the detachment. I think the place was
22 called Suplja Bukva. I think that's better. Not Gluha Bukva but Suplja
24 Q. You just mentioned that at this forward command post there was
25 someone who was responsible for communications. Can you tell us a little
1 bit about the communication systems that the detachment had? Again, in
2 May 1995.
3 A. We had our communications centre linking together all the assault
4 groups, the groups that were to attack, and each of the leaders of those
5 groups had a Motorola, the emir of the group, and he was connected to the
6 communications centre. Then we also had a link with another Motorola
7 that was not linked to this one, connected to the division command or to
8 the command of the 3rd Corps.
9 Q. And can you tell us, sir, if you know whether those communication
10 systems during May 1995, during those operation -- or the operation in
11 May 1995, were these communication systems functioning?
12 A. Up to a point, yes. It was difficult to establish communication
13 because the Chetniks were interfering in our frequencies, and we weren't
14 always able to communicate well with each other.
15 Q. What about communication with the 35th Division or the 3rd Corps
16 during this operation?
17 A. As soon as you start speaking on the Motorola they would
18 sometimes put a music in, sometimes insults. As soon as they discovered
19 the frequency, they would start interfering.
20 Q. Can you tell us, sir, what role or what you were doing personally
21 when this May 1995 operation was underway?
22 A. I was present next to the commander. If one of the participants
23 in the attack were to send a message or if something had to be passed on
24 in Bosnian, I would do that, or if someone was speaking in Bosnian, I
25 would interpret to the commander and pass on the orders. If it was
1 necessary to establish connection with division command or their
2 communication centre to ask for artillery support, then I would do so
3 using the Motorola that was linked to the division command.
4 We rarely spoke to the corps command. This was just in case of
5 necessity. If I failed to establish contact with the division centre,
6 then I would try and contact the corps command, but that was very rarely
8 Q. Sir, you just mentioned artillery support from the division. Do
9 you recall whether any such requests were made for artillery support
10 during the May 1995 operation?
11 A. In view of the fact that we only had very modest artillery, that
12 is one 120-millimetre mortar and two 80-millimetres mortars, then we
13 asked for artillery support, ZIS guns or the support of a tank or a
14 howitzer which we didn't have. And since the division did have such an
15 artillery unit, we would ask for their support.
16 Q. A few moments ago, sir, you made mention of a local unit being
17 involved in this operation or being along the lines during this
18 operation. Can you tell us a little bit more about what unit that was?
19 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question. I don't quite
20 understand the Serbian language, so could we have Bosnian language if
21 possible? She's using a word that I don't understand in the translation.
22 Q. The --
23 A. I don't understand Serbian too well. Could I please have Bosnian
24 language or Arabic? That would be fine. I really don't understand too
1 Q. Okay. Let me -- let me try to ask the question again.
2 A few moments ago when you told us about this May 1995 operation,
3 you mentioned a local unit assisting the El Mujahedin Detachment, and I'm
4 wondering if you can recall when you say a local unit, do you know what
5 unit that was and can you tell us a little bit more about what that unit
6 was doing during the May 1995 operation?
7 A. The local unit was the 328th Brigade that held the line.
8 Q. Sorry to interrupt, sir.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. We're trying to attend to the problem
10 that Mr. Awad has raised. It does seem as if we do not have at this
11 moment a Bosnian-speaking interpreter in the booth. We can only -- we
12 only have that one who speaks Serbian, and I don't -- there is actually
13 nothing we do at this stage to resolve the problem.
14 Have you been able to -- to resolve that word that you didn't
15 understand that was mentioned in Serbian, Mr. Awad, with the interpreter,
16 or at least with Mr. Mundis?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood when you talk about a
18 local unit, because you need to understand the following -- oh, all
19 right. You need to understand when you say the word "mesna jedinica
20 [phoen]," it means "meso," "meat," from what I understand, but it can be
21 "mejesna jedinica," meaning "local unit." But when you say "mesna"
22 without the J, I think it's made some -- that it's something made of
23 meat. Then I lose my concentration and I cannot speak. I need to
24 understand perfectly what is coming to me through the earphones, and then
25 I can answer the questions properly, and that's how I can proceed.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I understand. My question --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hope that --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood that the question had
5 to do with the local unit that was there, and I started to answer that
6 question, that this unit was the 328th Brigade, that this was its area of
7 responsibility. They were holdings that line, that place where the
8 attack was launched from on the 27th of May, 1995. They didn't have a
9 major role. They were just there as a rear support, because when you
10 capture, God willing, the area that is being attacked, then somebody
11 needs to come close to form a new line. And then they can participate in
12 guards these positions, in holding these new positions, because when an
13 attack is carried out and the terrain a captured -- may I proceed? When
14 an attack is carried out and terrain is captured, the forces themselves,
15 or the El Mujahedin Detachment, because they're not a large force,
16 somebody is needed to cover and guard and hold that terrain, digging
17 trenches, fortifications, and so on. So this is the sort of support I
18 was talking about in that sense.
19 MR. MUNDIS:
20 Q. Can you tell us, Mr. Awad, about what happened when this attack
21 was launched?
22 A. When members of the El Mujahedin Detachment managed to reach
23 enemy positions, I think that at one point a part of the unit that was
24 close was discovered and the action began some 15 minutes earlier than it
25 was supposed to. In a very short period thanks to Allah Jelashan
1 [phoen], they managed to capture three elevations, to drive away the
2 enemy forces, and to capture new positions.
3 Q. Can you tell us, sir, about any reporting that might have
4 happened after these three features were taken?
5 A. What do you mean in the sense of reporting? By whom? Can we
6 specify that?
7 Q. Well, once these three features were taken, did the detachment
8 report what had happened to anyone else?
9 A. Yes. In the evening a meeting was held at the division
10 command -- or perhaps the meeting was held in the Panorama restaurant,
11 actually, and that's when it was reported that the operation was
12 successful. Then we reported about how many casualties we had, how many
13 killed and wounded, and what else was needed in order to maintain the
14 success, what was necessary, which forces should come and -- so that they
15 can later relieve the detachment forces that carried out the assault and
16 the preparations, and then at the meeting it was said what else needed to
17 be done in order to maintain. For example, do we need some tools,
18 digging tools, saws in order to fortify the lines. And then later,
19 perhaps, the local unit that was holding the area could take over from
20 the Mujahedin in that area. Of course the detachment would not withdraw
21 fully. Some people would stay in order to preserve the line, but a large
22 number could be withdrawn so that they could rest and prepare new
24 Q. Do you recall when this meeting took place, sir?
25 A. The same evening, I said. The attack was on the 27th of May in
1 the morning, and the meeting was in the evening.
2 Q. Who attended the meeting?
3 A. The corps commander, Sakib Mahmuljin. The commander of the
4 3rd Corps was there, Fadil Hasanagic. The commander of the
5 35th Division, Abu Mali; the commander of the El Mujahedin Detachment,
6 Muatez, who was responsible for military questions. I was there as the
7 interpreter. I don't know else who was there. Maybe some others. Maybe
8 the commander of the 328th Brigade. Maybe he was there. I don't
9 remember the other people who -- who were there.
10 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Awad, when this May 1995 operation had a name?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis, Mr. Awad says he is not Ajwad, he's
12 Awad, Awad.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. I stand corrected.
14 Q. Sir, do you recall whether this operation in May 1995 had a name
15 or a title?
16 A. The operation when it was carried out didn't have any names, but
17 after it was carried out successfully, the operation, the press centre --
18 or, rather, the press service in the El Mujahedin Detachment named it as
19 the operation Elfat El Mubeen [phoen], meaning "Clear Victory."
20 Q. This press service or press department of the El Mujahedin
21 Detachment, can you tell us a little bit about -- a little bit about
23 A. This service worked on the promotion of the El Mujahedin
24 Detachment's work, meaning that they even tried to publish a paper or a
25 bulletin that the members of the detachment could read. They could read
1 about their successes and so on. So the press service worked on the
2 promotion of the work of the El Mujahedin Detachment.
3 Q. I'd like to turn your attention now, sir, to the second
4 operation. Do you recall the date that the second major operation in
5 1995 commenced?
6 A. On the 21st of July, 1995, was when the operation began.
7 Q. And what was the objective of the operation that began on 21 July
9 A. The objective of the operation was to capture the three
10 elevations, the three elevations 551. Elevation 551, these are three
11 elevations that are facing the Paljenik hill, close to Paljenik hill.
12 But there are several details about this action, and if you wish, I can
13 tell the details. And if you wish, you can also ask me specific
15 Q. We'll just to that in just a moment. Can you tell us, sir, how
16 the detachment determined the objective for this July 1995 operation?
17 A. Yes. This is exactly what I wanted to tell you about these
18 details. The El Mujahedin Detachment, after the Elfat El Mubeen
19 operation, started with reconnaissance farther along of the surrounding
20 terrain towards the Cevljusa peak or ridge. I think that's what it was
21 called. The detachment was getting ready for an attack in that
22 direction. However - I don't know why - there was a change in the plan,
23 and we were informed by the command, the corps command and the division
24 command, that the priority was to attack along a different axis, meaning
25 those three elevations, in to create pre-conditions for a further attack
1 towards Paljenik, the facility overseeing the main road linking
2 Zavidovici, Zenica, Tuzla. Of course the detachment then turned its
3 reconnaissance towards that facility rather than the previously prepared
4 reconnaissance for the previous target.
5 The attack was carried out on the 21st of July, and it was
6 successful, and those three features were captured.
7 Q. Now, sir, can you tell us whether in that period between the
8 operation on 27 May 1995, and the operation on 21 July 1995, any meetings
9 were held with the detachment and either the division or the corps?
10 A. This is quite normal, because we received -- we were told to
11 change our direction of reconnaissance from the one that we were carrying
12 out before towards Kvrge and the other place. We were told to go to
13 different features. This is 551, elevation 551. So before that there
14 was definitely a meeting with the corps commander, and later for sure
15 there was one with the division command who was assisting. They were
16 simply providing support to us because we needed scouts, people who knew
17 the terrain, who would show us the axis of reconnaissance.
18 Q. Do you recall, sir, when this meeting with the 3rd Corps
19 commander took place prior to the July 1995 operation?
20 A. I cannot remember exactly, but it was definitely in late June
21 when the meeting was held. That was when we were given the
22 recommendation to change our direction. So it was probably in the second
23 half of that month, not in the first half.
24 Q. Other than the El Mujahedin detachment, sir, were there other
25 units of the ARBiH involved in this operation on 21 July?
1 A. As for the attack, no other unit took place. Perhaps they
2 provided support in terms of later when the terrain was captured, but no
3 one took part in the actual attack other than members of the El Mujahedin
5 Q. Let me then ask you, sir, about this meeting with the
6 35th Division commander before the July operation. Do you recall
7 approximately when that meeting took place and where?
8 A. Most probably there were several meetings, not just one. Perhaps
9 the most important was the one before the action itself when this meeting
10 was held asking or deciding that the unit was ready for the attack and
11 that the attack could be carried out on that day, and then it was said
12 what was necessary to be done. Sometimes we needed to secure the area.
13 For example, if there was no good road to bring in food, we would
14 ask for the road to be built. We would use equipment to make it possible
15 to pull out safely, to pull out the wounded. We always took care of
16 that. We never allowed any of our wounded to suffer on the road. We
17 would always find a situation or a solution so that people could reach
18 the nearest medical service as quickly as possible so that they could be
19 sent on to the hospital later.
20 And the meetings were probably held also before this last meeting
21 to secure all of these conditions. And then there was probably a meeting
22 for last preparations to determine the time of attack and other details.
23 Q. Do you recall, sir, where these meetings were held?
24 A. Possibly there were some at the division command. And the last
25 meeting was definitely either at the IKM or at the division commandment
1 possibly it was at the IKM of the 35th Division. I don't remember where
2 it was exactly. Maybe after Zavidovici at the Panorama or some other
3 place. I don't remember precisely, but I know that the meetings were
5 Q. And who attended these meetings?
6 A. It was a standard thing. The El Mujahedin Detachment commander
7 Abu Mali, Muatez, myself as the interpreter, the commander of the
8 35th Division. I'm not sure here whether the corps commander was here.
9 I'm not sure. I really doesn't say for sure if the corps commander was
10 there. Maybe he wasn't even there.
11 Q. Once this operation commenced on 21 July 1995, where were you on
12 that day, Mr. Awad?
13 A. I was supposed to take part in the attack, because I was the
14 interpreter the whole time, but then I insisted. I also wanted to
15 experience a bit of the fighting. I was there to fight, too, not just to
16 be an interpreter, but I was used because I knew that Bosnian language
17 and so on.
18 Since I stayed late with the preparations of the people who were
19 preparing the operation, I stayed with the doctor late, until 2.00 in the
20 morning, who was arranging the pull-out of the wounded, how to carry them
21 away, so I was there. And when I finished all of that, the group that I
22 was supposed to go with in the field had already reached their attack
23 positions and it was not possible for them to catch up with them.
24 In the morning when the attack was carried out, I was below the
25 line of attack, below the line where the 325th Brigade was holding its
1 positions. And when I reached that place, when we got there, the attack
2 had just started and there was no more the opportunity to do anything, to
3 join. So at the time of the attack, I was at the line itself from where
4 the attack was launched, or I was just in front of the place from where
5 the attack was launched.
6 Q. Can you tell us, sir, how the attack unfolded on the 21st of
7 July, 1995?
8 A. When I was there on the line I came with Adnan Pezo most
9 probably, who was leading the operation, and when the attack began he
10 received an immediate report saying that the line was broken through and
11 that it was okay to come. Since he was familiar with the terrain, he
12 immediately set off to the place and I followed him, but there was a
13 steep incline. And he was a light person, a fit person. I'm a bit more
14 corpulent and I couldn't run, so I got a bit tired. And we reached the
15 first dugout that had been captured, that had been cleared, and I stayed
16 there. He continued forward, and I stayed at that place.
17 Since I was tired, I entered the dugout to rest a little, and I
18 fell asleep there, and I only woke up once the operation was all over.
19 Q. Okay. Can you tell us -- can you tell us, how would you
20 characterise that operation on 21 July 1995 in terms of the objectives of
21 the detachment?
22 A. The operation was very successful. When I heard from these
23 people, the members of our group who was there near the dugout, that a
24 large area of the terrain was captured, that a tank was captured, it was
25 a major success. The first time that we had captured a tank. It was a
1 large, major success.
2 And in the course of the operation, Allah made it so that those
3 who were holding -- the Chetniks who were holding the positions, when
4 they heard our Tekbir that we had broken through the line at that place,
5 they fled from the terrain that we were reconnoitering earlier. So the
6 elevation 551, that entire area was empty. They had left that area, and
7 nobody remained in that area, so that we immediately captured their
8 positions and a major success was achieved.
9 The area was 13 kilometres wide that was captured, while the
10 actual attack was carried out in a very narrow area.
11 Q. Sir, you've mentioned capturing the front lines and capturing
12 this Serb tank. Do you know during the July 1995 operation if any
13 prisoners of war were taken?
14 A. If there were any captured, I saw two people who were captured
15 being led by an Arab who was about a metre and a half. And there was
16 another person who was very tall. He was a doctor. He was almost two
17 metres tall.
18 When I saw them, I told that Arab guy that those two captured men
19 should be taken to the first place of assembly. I think that was in the
20 village of Livade, the place of assembly for the unit. And I asked him
21 to take them to the place. After that, I no longer saw the people who
22 were captured.
23 Q. Do you recall, sir, approximately where you were when you saw
24 this Arab escorting these two prisoners?
25 A. I didn't say "Arabs." I saw one Arab.
1 Q. That's what I think I said. When you saw this Arab, singular,
2 Arab, escorting the two prisoners of war, do you recall approximately
3 where you were when you saw them?
4 A. At the precise point when I came to the first dugout where I
5 stayed there to wait, before I entered the dugout to rest I saw those two
6 persons, and then I told him that. After that I entered the dugout and
7 sat down, and then after, I fell asleep there.
8 I don't know exactly what the name of it. I don't know the
9 terrain, so I don't know exactly what that place was called, but it was
10 the first dugout some hundred -- some 500 metres out.
11 Q. And, Mr. Awad, do you recall approximately what time it was on
12 the 21st of July, 1995, when you saw these two prisoners being escorted?
13 A. Maybe 6.00 in the morning. Immediately in the morning. As soon
14 as the action started. But there is one detail before the action. We --
15 this has to be said so that people could listen and hear what happened.
16 I remember that someone set the time the attack would be carried
17 out so that the Chetniks were bombarding the positions all night, and the
18 line that was held where our fighters managed to get to, but none of our
19 fighters were wounded in this shelling.
20 Later, I found out that Ivo Lozancic, who was the commander of
21 the HVO in Zepce, he was -- since there was a Joint Command of the army
22 of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the HVO, I heard that he actually issued
23 those -- that information.
24 Q. Sir, other than these two prisoners of war that you personally
25 observed, did you ever come to learn about any other prisoners taken
1 during the July 1995 operation?
2 A. I did not encounter any prisoners. However, after the
3 operation - I don't know how much time had passed - I though that an
4 exchange was carried out, and I think that 11 prisoners were handed over
5 to the military police of the 3rd Corps of the army of Bosnia and
7 Q. Do you know any of the details about this hand-over of these 11
8 prisoners to the 3rd Corps military police?
9 A. I don't know. I didn't take part in the exchange. I kind the
10 report saying that the prisoners had been taken over, and my signature is
11 there, and I think I handed it over to the military police, but I didn't
12 directly take part in that exchange.
13 Q. Now, can you tell us, sir, about any meeting or meetings that
14 immediately followed the operations on 21 July 1995?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I interrupt you? Just before you move on to
16 point, Mr. Mundis, you asked the witness if he had got to learn about any
17 other POWs after those two. The answer that was given in the English
18 channel set, "I did not encounter any POWs."
19 I'm not quite sure whether, apart from encountering them, the
20 witness has ever heard or come to learn, as you had asked, of any other
21 POWs. I would like to know whether he did.
22 MR. MUNDIS:
23 Q. Sir, do you understand what -- what the Presiding Judge has
25 A. If I understood your question, both questions, if I understood
1 them correctly, you're asking did I see any other prisoners. I did not.
2 I only saw those two prisoners. I did not see any other prisoners.
3 Q. Did you hear about any other prisoners being taken on 21 July
5 A. These ones that were handed over, the prisoners who were handed
6 over to the military police of the 3rd Corps of the army of Bosnia and
7 Herzegovina, those people were the ones who were captured in that action,
8 but I personally did not see others except those two.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: We understand, Mr. Awad, that you did not see any
10 POWs. The question is, did you come to hear of any other POWs that were
11 captured on the 21st of July?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that other people were
13 captured, the ones who were exchanged. I heard that some were captured,
14 and they were exchanged later.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you come to hear how many were captured on the
16 21st of July?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't how many were captured. I
18 heard of the prisoners who were exchanged. I don't know how many were
19 captured. Perhaps it was just those who had been captured. I don't
20 believe that there were more. Then you would hear that there were more
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Awad.
23 MR. MUNDIS:
24 Q. Let me ask you, sir, do you recall whether there were any
25 meetings held immediately after the operation on 21 July 1995?
1 A. There would usually and meeting after the operation. Now,
2 whether was that was the same day or the next day, I can't say. There
3 was a meeting, and then the report would be submitted about the success
4 of the operation and everything else that happened during the operation.
5 Q. Were you personally present at any such meeting following the
6 July 1995 operation?
7 A. Yes, I was present at the meeting.
8 Q. Do you recall where this meeting was and who attended?
9 A. The commander of the 35th Division, our commander Abu Mali,
10 Muatez, and myself. I don't know who else was present, but I can't be
11 more specific as to who else was present. I really can't remember.
12 Q. Do you know, sir, the 21 July 1995 operation, did that have a
14 A. It was given a name after it was completed. It was called Al
15 Karame [phoen], which in Bosnian would mean some supernatural thing that
16 happened. That would be the way one could interpret it.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what language is Al Karame.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Arabic.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: So that name Al Karame was started, an EMD name of
20 the operation? Was the name of the operation given by the El Mujahedin
21 Detachment and not by the -- by the army itself?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The army didn't give it any name.
23 They may have had another name, but I don't know. But the army didn't
24 give it any name for this operation. It was after the success of the
25 operation, when the attack was completed successfully, in view of the
1 fact that a large area had been captured, maybe -- we had taken over
2 seven kilometres of the front line without any combat because the
3 Chetniks had fled. We called it Al Karame, because it was a supernatural
4 event. In Arabic that is what it means.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I do hear. And when you say "we called it," you
6 mean the El Mujahedin Detachment. Thank you. That's all.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely so, yes. Thank you.
8 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now, with the assistance of the usher,
9 that the witness be shown Exhibit 1049, which I believe in the binder is
10 still labelled as PT02329. PT02329, which has subsequently been admitted
11 into evidence as Exhibit 1049.
12 Q. Do you have this document in front of you, sir?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I'd like to turn your attention, sir, to paragraph 2, which
15 starts with the letters N/S. Do you see that part of the document?
16 A. [In English] Yes.
17 Q. Can you comment, sir, about what's being reported in this
19 I do have an additional hard copy of this document if that would
20 be of assistance.
21 A. [Interpretation] It says here that defence positions are being
22 consolidated and reinforced, and MTS replenishment is being -- being
23 carried out. After the arrival of the El Mujahedin Detachment, further
24 infantry attacks were successfully repulsed. According to incomplete
25 figures, the casualties suffered in the combat activities so far were as
1 follows: Killed 2, missing 5, and wounded 11.
2 That is what this document says.
3 Q. Do you -- do you know, sir, or can you comment upon the reference
4 to the detachment and infantry attacks being successfully repelled?
5 A. Most probably the reference here is to the event when the
6 detachment left the front line and handed it over to the local unit,
7 328th Brigade. A day later - this didn't last long - the Chetniks
8 carried out an attack and made a breakthrough the line that we had
9 already captured. We were informed of this. And then we attacked again
10 trying to stop that attack, and after that there was no further progress
11 made by the Chetniks. And we also came across the 4th Manoeuvre
12 Battalion along the way.
13 Q. Mr. Awad, when you say, "We were informed about this," can you
14 tell us who informed you about these developments?
15 A. Now, whether it was the division command or the corps command I
16 can't remember. The news arrived, anyway, probably from the division
17 command that we should react to this attack to prevent any further
18 progress by the Chetniks. I am more prone to believe that it came from
19 the division command rather than the 3rd Corps command of the BH army.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis, how much longer is the direct
21 examination still to be?
22 MR. MUNDIS: I'm attempting to move as quickly as possible, Your
23 Honour, and --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand.
25 MR. MUNDIS: -- dropping topics. I would think probably one more
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've taken four hours already.
3 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, sir.
4 Q. Sir -- Witness, can you tell us about the third operation in
5 1995? When did that operation occur?
6 A. The operation was on the 10th of September, 1995.
7 Q. Did this operation have a name?
8 A. Yes, it did. This operation was called Farz. That was the
9 designation it was given in the maps, Farz.
10 Q. And do you know, sir --
11 A. F-a-r-z.
12 Q. Do you know, sir, who gave that operation the name Farz?
13 A. I don't know with precision who gave the operation the name. I
14 don't know. I'm not sure.
15 Q. Now, what was the objective of the El Mujahedin Detachment in
16 operation Farz on 10 September 1995?
17 A. The objective of the El Mujahedin Detachment was to gain control
18 of the Paljenik feature. Popovo Osoje or something like that, and
19 Malovan. The main attack was of the Paljenik hill. It is a bare hill, a
20 clearing. There are no trees on it. And the detachment attacked this
22 Q. And can you tell us, sir, who determined that the objective of
23 this attack on 10 September 1995 was to be the Paljenik feature?
24 A. This was a broader operation. Several units took part and
25 several corps. Participating in this operation were two corps, the
1 3rd Corps and the 2nd Corps in coordination, each attacking from its own
2 side. There were several units of the 3rd Corps. They participated in
3 this operation in -- the El Mujahedin, the 4th Manoeuvre Battalion, and I
4 think the 3rd Manoeuvre Battalion, the 329th Brigade, the 7th Muslim
5 Brigade. This was a very large area and a large-scale operation that was
6 carried out on the 10th of September, 1995. And the objectives were set
7 by the command of the 3rd Corps, and the objectives were issued to all
9 Q. Can you tell us, sir, how those objectives were communicated to
10 these various units that you've described?
11 A. I don't know about the other units, but we received the order
12 after consultations about this large-scale operation and that
13 reconnaissance should be carried out. And when we agreed to participate
14 in the operation, we received the order to carry out the attack in that
15 direction, and we were told that other units would take part of the
16 3rd Corps of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
17 Q. Were you ever present, sir, at any meetings where this operation
18 was being planned?
19 A. I was.
20 Q. When and where?
21 A. I think the first meeting was at the headquarters of the
22 3rd Corps. The detachment commander Muatez was there, and I was present.
23 Sakib Mahmuljin was there, the commander of the 3rd Corps. At this
24 meeting we discussed the possibilities, but we had already started
25 preparations and were doing reconnaissance in the area. In view of the
1 fact that we were there in place, then we were given this part of the
2 area, Paljenik. We ourselves wished to participate because we had
3 some -- we felt that with guards assistance we could achieve it if the
4 reconnaissance was done properly.
5 This was the first meeting, and after these consultations we felt
6 it would be a good thing for us to do it, and we accepted, and after that
7 the order came. Then came other meetings. Now, whether it was at the
8 headquarters of the 35th Division or at the forward command post, I think
9 there was even a meeting with the commander of the 35th Division at his
10 forward command post. I think it was 777, feature 777. It was called
11 Klek. And we were there at the forward command post, and we discussed
12 these preparations.
13 So there were several meetings before the actual attack was
14 launched in 1995.
15 Q. Do you know, sir, approximately what time the attack was launched
16 on 10 September 1995?
17 A. In the morning. We usually attack at dawn. Early in the morning
18 we started the attack. I can't tell you exactly what time it was. 4.00
19 or 4.15, 4.25. Anyway, early in the morning, before dawn.
20 Q. And where were you located? Where were you physically present at
21 the time this attack commenced in the early morning of 10 September 1995?
22 A. I was at the forward command post of the El Mujahedin Detachment
23 command, which was across the way from the Paljenik hill. I was in this
24 dugout, which was the forward command post. I was with the commander,
25 Abdul El Mali [as interpreted], and Sheik Abwa [phoen] was also present,
1 and there was from the command of the 35th Division, but I can't remember
2 his name. But anyway, I was there at the forward command post.
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get all the names.
4 MR. MUNDIS:
5 Q. Okay. Yeah. Let me -- let me ask you, sir, the interpreter
6 didn't catch all the names of the people who were present in this dugout.
7 Can you repeat the names?
8 A. Listen carefully, please. I was there as the interpreter. The
9 commander Abu El Mali; Sheik Anwar Shaaban; and a signalsman, I think his
10 name was Moris [phoen], who was working with the equipment; and someone
11 on behalf of the 35th Division. I only saw him once in my life, and I
12 didn't remember his name. As some sort of support or coordinator. I
13 don't know. He was there with us. Now, why he was there, I don't really
15 Q. Can you tell us, sir, about the operation on 10 September 1995?
16 What happened?
17 A. With the Allah's permission the members of the El Mujahedin
18 Detachment attacked and in only four minutes they managed to get
19 controlled of the Paljenik feature.
20 Q. And after taking or seizing the Paljenik feature, what did the
21 detachment do?
22 A. It was not just Paljenik. Then there were places to the right,
23 Malovar [phoen], Pod Malovar, Popovo Osoje. This whole area could not be
24 seized at the same time. There were -- there was a fog, so it was not
25 possible to reach all the trenches. So there was some delay, but the
1 main feature was seized in only four minutes. The others were supposed
2 to attack from other directions, and a part of the El Mujahedin
3 Detachment, I think together with the 3rd Manoeuvre Battalion who were
4 attached to us just then, managed to reach the asphalt road and to move
5 forward to seize the rest of the area from enemy forces.
6 Q. While this attack was underway on 10 September 1995, what were
7 you personally doing?
8 A. As I said that I was the interpreter, I was interpreting for the
9 commander if he doesn't understand something, or passing on his comments.
10 I was some sort of a coordinator when people on the ground were asking
11 for support. For instance, if artillery support was required, I would
12 react directly and ask the communications centre of the 35th Division for
13 this artillery support. Since the objectives were set in advance and
14 given numbers, I would ask for support at number 35, 42, 17. I would ask
15 for such support.
16 If there was some sort of delay or any problem, I would, in a
17 sense, coordinate these things.
18 Q. Do you know, Mr. Awad, whether there were any meetings after this
19 operation took place on 10 September 1995?
20 A. It is normal for a meeting to be held, to report on the
21 operation, whether it was successful or not, what kind of problems were
22 encountered. There was quite normal to have a meeting of that kind. And
23 all the participants would be present, the corps commander, the division
24 commander, the commanders of the units, for each one of them to report
25 what they had done, what difficulties they had encountered, what degree
1 of success had been achieved, et cetera.
2 Q. Sir, you say it would be -- it would be normal, but my question
3 is was there such a meeting on 10 September 1995, after the operations
4 were complete?
5 A. Regarding the 10th of September, there may have been one in the
6 evening. It's possible.
7 Q. Do you remember attending any such meeting on 10 September 1995?
8 A. I don't remember exactly whether it was on the 10th, but there
9 was a meeting, and I did attend. Now, whether it was the same evening
10 after the operation or the next day, I'm not sure. So I want to be very
12 Q. To the best of your recollection, sir, where was this meeting?
13 A. I think it was held at the forward command post of the
14 35th Division, which was in the Babylon restaurant on the road Krivaja,
15 the villages called Krivaja, and I think this building is in Krivaja, and
16 that is where that meeting was held.
17 Q. Can you recall, sir, who attended the meeting?
18 A. The commander of the 3rd Corps of the BH army, Sakib Mahmuljin;
19 the commander of the 35th Division, Fadil Hasanagic; the commander of
20 El Mujahedin, Abu El Mali; I was present; a commander of the
21 3rd Manoeuvre Battalion, of the 4th Manoeuvre Battalion of the
22 328th Brigade; 329th Brigade. Anyway, all the commanders of all the
23 units that took part in this operation attended this meeting. That is my
24 recollection of it.
25 Q. Sir, in this time period, the first two weeks of September 1995,
1 were you ever in the town of Vozuca?
2 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I didn't hear it quite
4 Q. Were you, sir, ever personally present in the town of Vozuca
5 during the first two weeks of September 1995?
6 A. In the first two weeks. I was after the 10th of September in
7 Vozuca, yes. That is the day I entered Vozuca, when it was liberated,
8 but not before. It wasn't the 1st, 2nd or 3rd of September but on the
9 10th of September. When Vozuca was liberated, I entered it.
10 Q. And why did you enter Vozuca after that town was liberated?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: But that's not all he said. He said he entered
12 Vozuca on the 10th when it was to be liberated, not after it was
14 MR. MUNDIS: I -- I heard him to say after it was liberated, but
15 I can ask the question again.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please.
17 MR. MUNDIS:
18 Q. Sir, who controlled Vozuca when you entered the town, when you
19 went there?
20 A. The army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
21 Q. What was the reason, sir, that you went to Vozuca?
22 A. I accompanied the commander afternoon when the territory had been
23 liberated. It was free territory. Everybody wanted to see what had been
24 liberated and what had been done. So I was escorting the commander. And
25 I saw this place that was liberated, prompted by the desire to see what
1 had been done.
2 Q. Did you and the commander have any meetings or briefings in
4 A. On that day, no, and in that location, no.
5 Q. Did you return to Vozuca at any point in time after this first
6 day that you've told us about?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When?
9 A. When the late President Alija Izetbegovic visited Vozuca. I,
10 with the commander, was present during that visit, and that is when I
11 visited Vozuca again. It may not have been Vozuca it, or a location
12 close to it. I considered all that area as Vozuca.
13 Q. And, sir, can you tell us a little bit about this visit of the
14 late President Izetbegovic to Vozuca when you were present?
15 A. The late President Alija Izetbegovic when he visited, he came to
16 thank the fighters of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina for their great
17 success, because they had managed to liberate a large territory and to
18 link two towns which were cut off for a long time, that is the towns of
19 Zenica and Tuzla, and to link two corps, the 3rd and 2nd Corps. They
20 liberated a large area of territory, and he addressed -- addressed the
21 soldiers with words of praise, and he congratulated them on this success.
22 Q. Do you recall, sir, who was present on this day in Vozuca other
23 than yourself and the commander of the El Mujahedin Detachment and the
24 late President Izetbegovic?
25 A. After the late president had spoken, there was a group of people
1 next to a map when the commander of the 3rd Corps of the BH army, the
2 commander of the 2nd Corps of the BH army, the commander of the
3 35th Division of the BH army, also present was the commander of the El
4 Mujahid Detachment, and some other people were present. A lot of people
5 were present there. And when the commanders explained to the president
6 and indicated the area that had been liberated, the new positions that
7 had taken up by the army, and they informed the president that the
8 operations were continuing in that direction.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. This would be an
10 appropriate spot for the first break.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it a convenient time for you?
12 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at 11.00. Court
15 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Sir, earlier we were talking about the prisoners of war from the
20 July 1995 operation, and I'd like to ask you if you were ever aware of
21 any prisoners of war taken during the September 1995 operation.
22 A. As far as I know, there were no prisoners.
23 Q. Okay.
24 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask at this point in time that the witness
25 be shown the document that's been marked P02582, P02582. And I would ask
1 if the usher could please though the Arabic version of this document to
2 the witness.
3 Yeah. I have -- I have hard copies here.
4 Q. Sir, do you have this document in front of you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Have you ever seen this document before?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Can you tell us, sir, what this document is?
9 A. It says something here in Arabic, like some kind of declaration
10 or some sort of report.
11 Q. Do you know, sir, who produced this document?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Can you tell from the information contained at the top of the
15 A. Well, I can tell you what is written, but I don't know what is
16 the source of the document. I can just read what it says at the top of
17 the paper, but I don't know if that's the source of it.
18 Q. Do you recognise, sir -- do you see any stamps or other markings
19 on the document that are familiar to you?
20 A. Upper right-hand corner there is some kind of sign. There are
21 two rifles which are leaning, one on top of the other, and there's
22 something in the middle that's quite indistinct. It's not clear.
23 MR. MUNDIS: If the original could be placed on the ELMO. Thank
24 you very much.
25 Q. Do you know what that marking on the upper right-hand corner of
1 this document is?
2 A. You can see two rifles there, and there's something in the
3 middle, but I cannot really say exactly what that is. There are two
4 rifles. It's not clear, the image. You can see the two rifles, and
5 there's something in the middle. What that is in the middle is something
6 that I'm not familiar with. I don't really see it all that well.
7 Q. Can you tell us, sir, what the subject of this document is or
8 what's written there in the large Arabic script in the middle of the
10 A. In the Arabic it says --
11 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said something in Arabic.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the Operation Badr Bosna
13 [phoen], or "The capture of Vozuca," and then below that there is another
14 declaration or something. It says "Second declaration."
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not see the -- the English
16 translation on the screen, we note.
17 MR. MUNDIS:
18 Q. Sir, can you tell us, have you ever heard of the battle of Badr
19 before, or can you tell us what that is?
20 A. Badr Bosna -- Bosnia is something I did hear of. It's a name of
21 the third operation that was carried out on the 10th of September, 1995.
22 As far as the Mujahedin were concerned, after the conquest the operation
23 was called Badr Bosna. The operation was actually called Farz, I think.
24 Q. And who gave -- who gave this operation this name Badr?
25 A. The detachment press service would give the operations a name.
1 It would name the operations.
2 Q. Do you know, sir, to whom the press service or department of the
3 El Mujahedin Detachment was forwarding information to?
4 A. I'm not all that familiar with it. They would issue a daily
5 bulletin for the detachment, and they would send information to the
6 Islamic world.
7 Q. Why would they do that, send information to the Islamic world?
8 A. You know, the whole world was following the events in Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina. The El Mujahedin Detachment received donations for --
10 donations from the Islamic world, from the Muslims in the Islamic world,
11 and for those Muslims to be happy with some successes that happened in
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina, to alleviate the sadness, the press service would
13 send reports to the Islamic world in order to inform them a little bit
14 about the situation in Bosnia, especially if there was some happy news
15 like success and things like that.
16 Q. And, sir, do you see at the bottom of this document under -- in
17 Bosnian under the phrase "Odred El Mujahedin" do you see some writing?
18 A. It says here "12 April, BB Street."
19 Q. Do you -- do you know what that refers to?
20 A. I don't know.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we'd ask that it document be admitted
22 into evidence.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours. I believe
25 that with this witness not sufficient ground was established in order to
1 admit this exhibit as an exhibit. The witness actually said that he sees
2 a document written in Arabic. He read the heading of the document in
3 Arabic, which anyone could have done who speaks the Arab language --
4 Arabic language. No other element of this document was confirmed by the
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
7 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, the witness was able to identify the
8 subject of this document and indicated that that was a term or name that
9 was used to describe the operation, and other than that the document, we
10 would suggest, speaks for itself in terms of the contents of the document
11 and -- and what was -- what is contained in the document.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber is of the view that not sufficient
13 basis has been laid for the admission of the document. The document will
14 not be admitted into evidence.
15 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask Your Honours that it be given a marked
16 for identification number.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the document be marked for identification and
18 be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we'll mark this document for
20 identification as Exhibit 1129.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: MFI 1129. Thank you very much.
22 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown P02669,
23 P02669. And again I would ask perhaps if the Arabic could be placed on
24 the ELMO.
25 Q. Sir, I'd like to focus your -- I'd like to focus your attention
1 on the stamps that are appearing on this document. Do you recognise
2 those markings?
3 A. No.
4 MR. MUNDIS: We'll move on then, Your Honours. This document can
5 be withdrawn from the ELMO.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is withdrawn.
7 MR. MUNDIS:
8 Q. I'd like to turn now to a different subject with you, Mr. Awad,
9 and that concerns the issue of training, military training.
10 Can you tell us a little bit about any military training that was
11 conducted during the time period you were a member of the El Mujahedin
13 A. I cannot give you too many details since I did not go through
14 such training, but generally speaking the training carried out in the
15 El Mujahedin Detachment was training on light weaponry, maybe the use of
16 RPGs, mortars, and so on, and also some tactical training in the sense of
17 how combat actions are executed and so on. This is what I can generally
18 say about that topic.
19 Q. Do you know, sir, about any military training at Hotel Ruda in
21 A. Which hotel?
22 Q. Ruda.
23 A. There is no Ruda hotel in Zenica. There is no Hotel Ruda in
25 Q. Were you aware, sir, of any training for military officers of the
1 ARBiH conducted in Zenica?
2 A. If you're thinking of the military officers' school called Ros,
3 it was organised for the military officers in Zenica, and it was
4 organised in the Hotel Rudar in Zenica. There is no Ruda hotel in
6 Q. That is in fact the training I was referring to. My mistake as
7 to the name of the hotel.
8 Can you tell us a little bit about that training course?
9 A. I don't know anything. I didn't attend that military officers'
10 school. I wasn't present there, so I can't say much about it. Of.
11 Q. Do you know, sir, whether anyone from the El Mujahedin Detachment
12 received training at that school in Zenica?
13 A. I know we sent two men who were members of the El Mujahedin
14 detachment for the training, Ismet Fazlic and Norudin [phoen] Alihodze,
15 and they completed that war school for military officers, the name of
16 which was Ros.
17 Q. And, sir, do you know why or can you tell us why these two
18 individuals, Ismet Fazlic and Norudin Alihodze were sent to this school?
19 A. In order to become officers of the army of Bosnia and
21 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now that the witness be shown the
22 document P01887, P01887.
23 Q. Mr. Awad, do you have this document in front of you?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. Can you tell us what this document refers to?
1 A. The names are given here, Alihodze Nahazim [phoen] Norudin, and
2 Fazlic Hamdija Ismet, that they are being admitted to Ros.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the document on the screen please be shifted
4 so that we can see what -- no, no, the English.
5 You may proceed, Mr. Mundis.
6 MR. MUNDIS:
7 Q. Sir, can you tell us again what this document refers to?
8 A. I just wanted to read the contents. I just read the names out,
9 but I haven't read the contents.
10 It's an order here saying that two cadets, members of the
11 El Mujahedin Detachment, are being sent to the Ros.
12 Q. And just, sir, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, do you know
13 what Ros stands for?
14 A. I said earlier. It's the war military officers' school.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. MUNDIS: We'd ask that this document be admitted into
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it be
19 please be given an exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That is Exhibit 1130, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 MR. MUNDIS:
23 Q. Now, Mr. Awad, you told us yesterday that you were a member of
24 the El Mujahedin Detachment until that unit was demobilised. Sir, do you
25 recall when you first were informed or became aware that the El Mujahedin
1 Detachment was to be demobilised?
2 A. The first time I heard of it was at the meeting with the late
3 President Alija Izetbegovic. The meeting took place in Zenica, in the
4 old -- the pensioners' hall. He said that the Dayton agreement would be
5 signed and that the detachment wouldn't exist any more, that it would
6 need to be dismantled, and that the people needed to leave Bosnia and
8 Q. Do you recall, sir, the approximate date or time period of this
9 meeting at Dom Penzionera in Zenica?
10 A. This was in December 1995. In any case, it was before the
11 signing of the Dayton Accords, before the 14th of December. I'm not sure
12 exactly which day it was, but I know it took place before, this meeting.
13 Q. Can you tell us, sir, other than the late President Izetbegovic
14 who attended this meeting in December 1995 at Dom Penzionera?
15 A. It was attended by General Rasim Delic, General Sakib Mahmuljin.
16 Detachment commander Abu El Mali was there, and Sheik Enver Ahmed Sunali
17 [phoen], and I was there as the interpreter.
18 Q. Do you remember, sir, any of the specific topics of conversation
19 at this meeting?
20 A. They talked to the late president about -- well, when he told us
21 that the Dayton Accords would be signed, that the fighting would stop,
22 there would be no more fighting in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that the
23 detachment had to be dismantled, and that according to the Dayton
24 agreement all foreigners must leave Bosnia and Herzegovina, in any case,
25 this topic was discussed, and Abu Mali and Sheik Enver spoke with the
1 president, Izetbegovic, that there was no need. It was possible to
2 fight. The army had advanced. It had a lot of successes and that
3 perhaps this peace would not be good for these people. However, the late
4 president stood by his position that the accords had to be signed and
5 that the war had to stop.
6 Q. Do you remember, sir, if General Delic spoke at this meeting?
7 A. We didn't have any direct contacts with him. When they talked
8 with the late president, because they wanted to see if he would yield a
9 little bit in his position, then General Delic would say, "President, do
10 you remember what we agreed in December?" That was the only sentence of
11 his during that meeting.
12 Q. Do you remember, sir, on any other occasion before the signing of
13 the Dayton agreement if there was a second such meeting?
14 A. With whom?
15 Q. With the same general group of individuals that you've just told
16 us about.
17 A. I wouldn't say that there was a meeting with General Delic, but
18 there was a meeting with the President Alija Izetbegovic, the late
19 president. It was a meeting in the Zavidovici Division building.
20 Q. And what was the subject of that meeting?
21 A. The late president toured the terrain. He was touring the
22 municipality of Zavidovici, and he stopped by the division command
23 building where the commanders of the units that were in that area were
24 there. We were also there, and we had a meeting with the president
25 alone. We spoke with him for 15 minutes.
1 This meeting was attended by Abu Mali and myself as the
2 interpreter representing the Mujahedin detachment; the commander of the
3 3rd Corps of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Sakib Mahmuljin, was
4 present; and the late President Alija was present.
5 In the meantime, Sheik Ehmed [as interpreted] Shaaban also joined
6 the meeting, who came from Zenica. He was not in Zavidovici, but he came
7 from Zenica later.
8 We were informed about the president's meeting quite late, so he
9 couldn't come by car, so he managed to get from Zenica to Zavidovici by
10 helicopter. I am speaking about the late Sheik Enver.
11 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown the
12 document P03058, P03058. And I'm interested in page 2 of the Bosnian
13 document, and the bottom of page 2 and top of page 3 in the English.
14 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to read the first two paragraphs of this
15 document, and then I'd ask you to comment upon what's contained in the
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you comment, sir, upon the information reported in these two
19 paragraphs of this document?
20 A. It says that on the 10th of December, 1995, two working meetings
21 were held with representatives of the El Mujahedin Unit. The first was
22 held at the 3rd Corps command with the commander of the General Staff of
23 the BH army, and the commander of 3rd Corps being present.
24 And the second meeting was also attended, apart from these two,
25 by the president of the republic. On behalf of El Mujahedin was Abu Mali
1 and his assistant for security, Awad Ajman, and Sheik Enver Shaaban.
2 I mentioned a moment ago the meeting in the pensioners' home. I
3 remember that one. I really don't remember this meeting in the corps
4 command. I remembered the meeting in the pensioners' home. It was after
5 half past 7.00. The main news programme is at half past 7.00. So we
6 were sitting with the president in the pensioners' home, and as is stated
7 here, it was noted that the unit had to be disbanded.
8 I really do not recall this first meeting. I simply don't
9 remember that meeting.
10 Q. But the information in the second paragraph, does that accurately
11 reflect what you remember happening at this meeting?
12 A. It's a poor copy, so I can't see all the words. I have already
13 said that we were told that it had to be disbanded as soon as possible
14 and pursuant to the talks in Dayton. I said that a moment ago.
15 Q. And the first line of this document refers to the date 10
16 December 1995.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Does that, sir, correspond to the rough time period when you
19 believe this meeting that you've talked about at Dom Penzionera occurred?
20 A. It is quite possible. It may have been that particular day.
21 They have better information than I do. The admission of the Presidency
22 took care of case, so it's quite possible that that is the correct date.
23 I just said that it was a meeting held prior to the signing of the Dayton
24 Accords. So I assume that that is the correct date.
25 MR. MUNDIS: I ask that this document be admitted into evidence,
1 Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
3 please be given an exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That is Exhibit 1131, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 MR. MUNDIS:
7 Q. Now, Mr. Awad, can you perhaps tell us about --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: How much longer are you going to be? You have
9 finished your hour that you asked for at the end -- before.
10 MR. MUNDIS: I believe we're on about the next to the last topic.
11 I would hope to be finished in about 10 to 15 minutes.
12 Q. Mr. Awad, can you explain to us a little bit about what happened
13 from a logistical point of view as the unit was demobilised?
14 A. As far as the detachment itself is concerned, in view of the fact
15 that it was being demobilised and there was no need for any weapons and
16 everything else that we held in our possession, we handed this in to the
17 command of the 3rd Corps, to the command of the 3rd Corps as we no longer
18 needed it.
19 Q. And why -- why were those weapons handed over to the 3rd Corps?
20 A. You see, these weapons had to be left to someone. You can't
21 leave it in the hands of people in the streets to avoid killings. So we
22 had to return it to an organisation, somebody who would take care of that
23 weaponry, and it was best for it to be handed in to the 3rd Corps
24 command, which would take care of that weaponry.
25 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown P02873,
1 P02873. And I'm primarily interested in page 2 of the Bosnian and page 3
2 of the English.
3 Q. Mr. Awad, if you could please look at that part of the document
4 that is numbered 5, which deals with logistics support.
5 Do you see the bullet point referring to the El Mujahedin
7 A. I've just started reading it. Just a moment, please. I see that
8 it says El Mujahedin here, yes.
9 Q. Can you comment upon what's written on this document, sir, in
10 terms of what you've just told us about weapons?
11 A. It says that the taking over of weapons and explosive ordnance
12 from the El Mujahedin Detachment has been completed. So it says that
13 they've already taken over the weapons. As I said a moment ago, we
14 handed our weapons over to the 3rd Corps, and here they say that this
15 takeover has been completed.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that this document be admitted into
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was the dinner the following day delicious, sir?
20 The document is gone. It talks about the dinner that was arranged for
21 the El Mujahedin Detachment the following day. I just wanted to know if
22 it was okay, the dinner.
23 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given
24 an exhibit number.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you want an answer?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you wish.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the biggest dinner, the
3 biggest meal that I ever had in my whole life.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we'll admit the document as
6 Exhibit 1132.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 MR. MUNDIS:
9 Q. Mr. Awad, can you just tell us, if you know, what happened to the
10 Vatrostalna building at the time the detachment was demobilised?
11 A. We handed over everything. Even the Vatrostalna building was
12 returned to the command of the 3rd Corps. And I don't know what happened
13 next. The army secured it. Now, what happened to it, I don't know.
14 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that the witness now be shown P02864,
16 Q. And again, sir, I would ask you to take a look at the paragraph
17 numbered 1 under the word "Order."
18 A. Very well. Yes.
19 Q. Can you comment upon what's contained in this order under
20 paragraph number 1?
21 A. I said a moment ago even without this order we returned the
22 facility. We didn't use it any more. There was no need for it. Since
23 the unit had been demobilised and the men had left Bosnia and
24 Herzegovina, we no longer needed this facility. So even without this
25 order, we had to return it to someone, and since we had received that
1 facility as being part of the army, we returned it to the army.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. MUNDIS: I ask that this document be admitted into evidence.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
5 please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit 1133, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, I would be interested in knowing
9 what sort of weaponry did we talk about at the end of the war? How
10 heavy -- or, rather, did the El Mujahid Detachment dispose over heavy
11 artillery, or was it just light infantry weapons, or what are we talking
13 MR. MUNDIS:
14 Q. Do you understand the question?
15 A. [In English] Okay.
16 Q. Yeah?
17 A. [Interpretation] As far as the weaponry is concerned, all the
18 weaponry was returned and handed over. As for heavy weapons, if we have
19 tanks in mind, they were handed over earlier on to the tank unit that was
20 within the 3rd Corps of the BH army, so that the tanks had been handed
21 over earlier on to the services of that unit. As for the other weapons,
22 the infantry weapons and every piece of ammunition was handed over to the
23 logistics of the 3rd Corps, including mortars and everything we had
24 captured in all our operations. We had a small cannon. We had mortars,
25 hand-held rocket launchers. All these things were handed over to the
1 command of the 3rd Corps.
2 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now that the witness be shown P02848,
4 Q. And perhaps, Mr. Awad, if you could just take a quick look at the
5 names on this document. I'm going to then ask you if you recognise any
6 of those names?
7 A. I do. I see them, and I recognise them.
8 Q. Which -- which names on this document do you recognise, sir?
9 A. Number 2, Mamdouh Kaber [as interpreted] -- Gaber, Ahmed Mahmoud
10 El Wakil, Abdel Hakim Salem Gouda, Amgad Mohamed Youssef, Ayman Mohamed
11 Youssef. Only those.
12 Q. And how do you know those people, sir?
13 A. I got to know them well after the war. For instance, Gaber, we
14 worked together. We did some commercial things. Ahmed Wakil too. He's
15 from Egypt. Abdel Hakim Gouda is a doctor who is in Zenica, who was a
16 doctor in the detachment too. Amgad Mohamed Youssef and his brother
17 Ayman Mohamed Youssef, one went to Great Britain and Angar remained in
19 In 2001, he was designated as an Egyptian group that Bosnia and
20 Herzegovina should be arrested and handed over to Egypt. He tried to get
21 out of Bosna across the border at Orasje. He was arrested and gaoled
22 because he had false documents. He was imprisoned for four months.
23 After that he was released. His citizenship was confirmed, and he was
24 not extradited to Egypt. And that is how I know these people.
25 Q. Do you know -- do you know if any of these people -- or let me
1 rephrase the question.
2 What unit were these people in, if you know, the ones that you've
4 A. They were members of the El Mujahedin Detachment.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask that this document be admitted into
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
9 please be given an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1134, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 MR. MUNDIS:
13 Q. Now, Mr. Awad, a few moments ago the Presiding Judge asked you
14 about the dinner in Zenica that was referred to in one of the earlier
15 documents. I'd like to ask you a few more questions about that event.
16 Do you recall, sir, the date or day that that dinner took place?
17 A. It was in December, but I don't know the exact date. I can't
18 remember exactly.
19 Q. What was the purpose of that dinner?
20 A. The dinner was held in honour of members of the detachment who
21 were leaving Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was simply owning that day in
22 honour of the people leaving Bosnia and Herzegovina, to treat them.
23 There was no other purpose.
24 Q. Did there also -- or was there an event in Zenica, sir, that
25 could be characterised as a farewell ceremony?
1 A. To whom?
2 Q. Was there -- was there a formal occasion, sir, at which the
3 El Mujahedin Detachment members attended?
4 A. I don't understand the question. If we're talking about the
5 dinner, yes, this dinner did take place once. I don't know what else you
7 Q. Where was the dinner?
8 A. In the army hall, Dom Armija.
9 Q. Who attended?
10 A. The members of the El Mujahedin Detachment, and then there were
11 people from the BH army, General Sakib Mahmuljin was there, General Rasim
12 Delic, Fadil Hasanagic. I think Ahmed Adilovic, and some other people
13 were present there. I can't remember who else.
14 Q. Can you describe what happened at that meeting -- or this dinner?
15 Can you tell us about this dinner?
16 A. It was a party. People gathered there, and there were words of
17 praise and gratitude addressed to the people who had come from abroad to
18 assist. I think that some other people spoke. Our commander described
19 who was the Mujahedin, why they had come. A general speech about the
21 Q. Sir, when you say that there were words of praise, do you recall
22 who offered these words of praise and what was said?
23 A. I remember that the speakers were the command of the 3rd -- the
24 commander of the 3rd Corps, General Sakib Mahmuljin; then General Rasim
25 Delic; also Abu Mali. I think Abu Melik was there. I'm not sure. I
1 don't remember. There were -- I can't remember exactly what they said.
2 Q. Can you tell us, sir, if you can recall, what -- when you say
3 "words of praise," can you -- can you be more specific?
4 A. Well, this dinner, if it was organised to express gratitude and
5 to treat these people, means that these people who had fought in Bosnia
6 and Herzegovina, who had come to help the people, they were not
7 criminals. They're leaving, treated by us, that is, by the people of
8 Bosnia and Herzegovina. They're going home, and they would be treated in
9 this way. So they thanked these people who had come and for coming to
10 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
11 Q. When you say -- when you say, sir, they thanked these people, who
12 are you referring to?
13 A. I'm referring to the organisers of this gathering, and I'm
14 referring to the people who were present at this gathering. Whoever
15 came, he would celebrate the meeting. And if it was organised as a token
16 of gratitude, whoever spoke expressed gratitude to these people.
17 Q. Do you remember, sir, anything that Abu Mali said at that event?
18 A. I know that he familiarised those present about the Mujahids, why
19 they had come. He also said what I used to tell my brothers, Bosniaks,
20 that the time would come when people would talk about us, that they would
21 say that we were terrorists and criminals and all kinds of other things.
22 I followed the press, and in 1993 they said that we as the Mujahedin
23 would provoke a fratricidal war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Mujahedin
24 had not come to provoke such conflicts. They had come to assist these
25 people. And such a conflict would never occur our brothers, Muslims, in
1 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
2 So Ali Mali [as interpreted] spoke along the same vein as I had
3 done when speaking to my brothers, Bosniaks.
4 Q. Mr. Awad, do you have any recollection of anything that
5 General Delic said at this event?
6 A. I know that he spoke and that he thanked a these men for their
7 success, for their participation. I don't remember anything else that he
8 might have said. That is as much as I can remember, recall.
9 Q. Can you describe -- can you describe for the Chamber the mood at
10 this dinner, the atmosphere?
11 A. I was just telling the Judge that it was the bitterest dinner I
12 had in my life. The atmosphere was so sad. The people present,
13 especially the Mujahedin, they were all crying, because imagine a man who
14 had come with so much joy to assist and to achieve something, and he had
15 hoped to die on Allah's road, to be a shaheed. His wish is not
16 fulfilled. Somebody stops him, and he has to leave. So something
17 happened that interrupts the achievement of your wish, your goal. So you
18 can imagine how they felt.
19 So the atmosphere was very sad. Nobody cared about the words or
20 the dinner or anything.
21 Q. Finally, Mr. Awad, I have a couple of questions concerning an
22 issue that you raised yesterday morning.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Awad, relax a moment. Can we give you a
24 moment, please.
25 Maybe we should take a short adjournment.
1 MR. MUNDIS: I was just going to suggest that.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We'll take a short
3 adjournment and come back.
4 --- Break taken at 12.00 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 12.15 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you -- do you feel better now, Mr. Awad? Thank
7 you so much.
8 Mr. Mundis.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
10 Q. I just have a few questions, Mr. Awad, about a subject you raised
11 at the beginning of the hearing yesterday.
12 Can you tell it us, sir, when you became a citizen of Bosnia and
14 A. In 1995.
15 Q. And upon what basis did you become a citizen of BiH?
16 A. On the basis of laws 23 of 1993. The law says that whoever
17 participates in the defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina has the right to
18 the citizenship of the country, and I got my right to the citizenship
19 because I was a member of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I
20 provided the organs with what was requested of me. I met the conditions,
21 and on the basis of that I got my citizenship, on the basis of my
22 participation in the defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
23 Q. And, sir, what were -- if you know, what were the dates of your
24 service in the ARBiH?
25 A. If you count from the time that I joined the group of Arabs,
1 that's from April, but actually it was from the 13th of August, 1993,
2 until the 25th of December, 1995.
3 Q. Thank you, sir.
4 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. If I could put just one question to
6 the witness before Madam Vidovic takes over. My question relates to the
7 issues that we have been speaking about here lastly, the citizenship and
8 the return of all the members of the El Mujahid Detachment to their
9 respective countries outside Bosnia and Herzegovina.
10 My question is, Mr. Awad, do you know why the El Mujahid members
11 had to leave Bosnia and Herzegovina after the war?
12 We know that it was written directly into the Dayton Accord that
13 all foreigners were to leave the country, and I think this was also what
14 you were told by -- or by the -- this was also what the members of the --
15 what the leadership of the El Mujahid Detachment was told by the late
16 President Izetbegovic, but what was the reason why the foreigners had to
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what the real reason
19 is. If those who issued the orders in Dayton said that the volunteers,
20 foreigners, of all sides who participated in the war both on behalf of
21 the army and -- the army of Republika Srpska and the HVO had to leave
22 Bosnia and Herzegovina, I think that was the basis.
23 The second -- well, in my view, why people left Bosnia and
24 Herzegovina was because people came to fight in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
25 When there was no more fighting, there was no need for them to stay.
1 Some returned to their homes. Some went farther. Those persons who were
2 not married, they went to marry. Who had companies, they continued their
3 jobs. Though continued on with their lives. Everybody went their own
5 The people in Bosnia and Herzegovina who stayed in Bosnia, they
6 were not subject to the Dayton regulations because they were born in
7 Bosnia and Herzegovina. It did not refer to them.
8 The foreigners had to leave. They had come to fight. There was
9 no more fighting, so there was no more reason for them to stay.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, if the Bosnian government by law afforded
11 citizenship to them, then they could have stayed, but apparently the
12 Dayton agreement ordered otherwise.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot interpret the Dayton
14 Accords. From what I know, the law was that foreigners had to leave
15 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and people who did not wish to stay in Bosnia and
16 Herzegovina left, even those -- some of them who had citizenship of the
17 country, they left. They didn't wish to stay in Bosnia and Herzegovina
18 any more.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we're going to need a
22 few minutes to distribute the documents, and I would appreciate very much
23 if we could go on our break now so that we could do this now so that we
24 do not take up any court time for that.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very well, then. We'll take a break, and we
1 could -- could we come back at 20 past instead of half past 1.00.
2 Court adjourned.
3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.22 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 1.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, you and the witness speak the same
6 language, and we don't have transcript. I'm going to ask you to please
7 make sure you don't overlap. Speak slowly, give him a chance to finish,
8 and ask your question.
9 Mr. Awad, you hear that? Please, when Madam Vidovic is asking
10 you a question, wait until she's finished before you start answering.
11 Okay? Thank you very much.
12 Madam Vidovic.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Awad.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. I'm Vasvija Vidovic, and today I'm going to be putting questions
18 to you on behalf of General Rasim Delic.
19 The nature of cross-examination is such that you would simply be
20 able to answer with a yes or a no to the majority of my questions, and I
21 kindly can you to do so whenever that's possible unless I ask for a more
22 detailed explanation or the Trial Chamber asks you to do that.
23 Did you understand me?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Mr. Awad, I think that you will need to keep your headphones on,
1 because the Judges also might put some questions to you. Did you
2 understand me?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In your testimony yesterday, Mr. Awad, you said that you came to
5 Bosnia and Herzegovina in late 1992. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You came via the assistance of the Arab humanitarian organisation
8 Mowafaq; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. You came to the Zenica area, and it would be correct to say that
11 you were received there by a representative of the civilian authorities,
12 a certain Mr. Makic. Am I correct?
13 A. Yes, that is correct. We held a meeting with Mr. Makic.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt?
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Awad, did you say you came in 1992 or in 1982?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I came to the former Yugoslavia in
18 1982, but I came to Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992, late 1992.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Thank you.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I'm going to put one more question to you that has to do with
22 Mr. Makic. At the time, he was the president of the Zenica Executive
23 Board, if you know?
24 A. Yes. He was carrying out that function. I'm not sure about his
25 name, but that is that person who was doing that job, the President of
1 the Executive Board or council - that's what it was called - of the
2 municipality of Zenica.
3 Q. In any event, that person received you when you came to Zenica;
4 is that correct?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Now I'm going to put some questions to you about the arrival, the
7 manner of arrival to Bosnia and Herzegovina. I would be correct, would I
8 not, if I were to say that you entered Bosnia and Herzegovina without the
9 mediation of any institutions of Bosnia and Herzegovina? Is that
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. Thank you. In your testimony yesterday, you said that after
13 arriving you joined a group of Arabs accommodated at the Bilmiste school;
14 is that correct?
15 A. This happened in April 1993. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Regarding that group of Arabs
17 at Bilmiste, I would like to ask you this, please: You did not consider
18 that group of Arabs at Bilmiste a part of the 7th Muslim Brigade; is that
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. You mentioned a group of Turks that was also accommodated at the
22 Bilmiste school. Do you remember that?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. You did not consider them either to be a part of the Muslim
25 7th Brigade; is that correct?
1 A. I don't know about their status. I cannot say if they were or
2 not part of the 7th Muslim Brigade.
3 Q. Thus you have no information that they were a part of the Muslim
4 7th Brigade; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In your testimony yesterday in response to a question by the
7 Prosecutor, you said that you received your first uniform from Mr. Halil
8 Brzina about whom you said that at the time he was the logistics man of
9 the 7th Brigade, and I would like to clarify this with you, please.
10 It's correct, isn't it, that you received the uniform while you
11 were still a humanitarian worker and that you received it as a gift? Am
12 I correct?
13 A. Yes, you could say that it was like that.
14 Q. In other words, you did not receive it as a Mujahedin but as a
15 member of a humanitarian organisation. Not as a Mujahedin fighter; is
16 that correct?
17 A. Yes, that's right. I had not yet joined the Mujahedin. I had
18 not yet become one of the Mujahedin.
19 Q. Thank you. I would now like to briefly clarify with you the
20 relationship of the 7th Muslim Brigade and the groups that you mentioned,
21 the group of Arabs and Turks that you encountered at Bilmiste. Please,
22 first of all, I'm going to ask you about this group of Arabs that you
24 That group of Arabs did not carry out the orders of the commander
25 of the 7th Muslim Brigade; is that correct?
1 A. What I saw was that they were not carrying out the orders of the
2 commander of the 7th Muslim Brigade.
3 Q. Thank you. Do you recall -- actually, I would like to remind you
4 of a statement that you gave to the Prosecutor earlier. First of all, I
5 would like to establish this: Do you recall giving a statement to the
6 Prosecutor in August and September 2005? Do you recall that?
7 A. Yes. Investigator Michael Koehler. I remember that.
8 Q. I would like to quote to you paragraph 84 of the statement. Tell
9 me if you recollect that?
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to be
11 citing portions of his statement, and if the witness does not recognise
12 them, I will show them to him then, but otherwise we don't need to waste
13 time on that, please.
14 Q. Now, I am quoting to you the paragraph 84 of your statement. You
15 said -- this is marked as D783.
16 You said: "Arabs were not receiving orders from anyone. They
17 were just going to the front line to fight. Nobody could order the Arabs
18 to go, because they wanted to go to fight anyway, but all of them asked
19 the emir whether to go or not."
20 Do you remember, Mr. Awad, giving a statement to this effect to
21 Mr. Koehler whom you mentioned a little bit earlier?
22 A. I cannot remember the entire statement that I gave.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps -- perhaps while that's being done, to avoid
2 any confusion if my learned colleague could indicate the dates concerning
3 that part of the statement.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess your learned friend talked about a
5 statement that was made sometime in 2005.
6 MR. MUNDIS: I'm actually not referring to the date of the
7 statement but the time period at which this part of the statement
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Let the witness be shown the statement so
10 that -- and you heard what your learned friend says, Madam Vidovic, if
11 you are able to do that.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Witness, please, can you please look at paragraph 84.
14 A. I've read it.
15 Q. Thank you, Witness. And in respect of this question by my
16 learned friend Mr. Mundis I would like to ask you this first of all:
17 Which time period were you talking about? First, can you recall giving
18 such a statement to the investigator from the OTP? I'm talking about
19 paragraph 84?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Thank you. My following question -- my next question is this:
22 Which time period are you talking about in that part of the statement?
23 A. I was talking about the time before the forming of the
24 El Mujahedin detachment. I was talking about the period from April 1993
25 that I went through.
1 The investigator insisted on a lot of things, so I talked about
2 that in general, but I don't want to be part of the statement before the
3 date that I actually joined the group of Arabs that was at Bilmiste.
4 Q. Thank you. In other words, this part of your statement refers to
5 the period before the founding of the El Mujahedin Detachment. Did I
6 understand you correctly?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. I would like to ask you this: What you said in paragraph 84 of
9 your statement was how it actually was, wasn't it? I mean, it's true,
10 isn't it?
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 Q. In your testimony you mentioned several times Wahiuddeen, if I am
13 pronouncing the name correctly. Please, Wahiuddeen was the emir of all
14 the Arabs present in Central Bosnia right until his death; is that
16 A. This has been wrongly interpreted. He could not have been the
17 emir of all Arabs in the area of Central Bosnia. There was a certain
18 group that was under his command. He was their emir. There were other
19 people who were not under his command and could not be considered -- and
20 could not have considered them as their emir.
21 Q. Thank you. Whatever is may be, I'm talking at this point about
22 this group of Arabs that were under his command. Please, the emir was
23 responsible for the actions and the direction that the Mujahedin had to
24 take even after the formal establishment of the El Mujahedin Detachment;
25 is that correct?
1 A. Yes. The emir is responsible for his Mujahedin. The emir is
2 responsible for his men, yes. That is correct.
3 Q. Okay. Now I would like to look at the document again together
4 with you, the document shown to us yesterday. This is Exhibit 1126.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And this refers also to the
7 Your Honours, it is in our binder marked as P1037. Actually,
8 that is Exhibit 1126. I managed to change that. E1126 [as interpreted].
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I have Exhibit 1126, but I don't
10 have the English translation. Oh, I do. Thank you.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Witness, please, you have the document in front you. I see the
13 Prosecutor yesterday quoted the first two paragraphs from this document,
14 and to gain time I will quote. You can look at the document, and you can
15 also listen to what I'm saying as it is very brief. I think that will
16 speed things up. I will quote the paragraph where it says: "In
17 particular, we would like to draw your attention to three Arabs who,
18 about 15 days ago, were detained at Busovaca while on route from Travnik
19 to Split. Their names are..." then we see the three names, and then
20 after that it says: "Please use their influence and power to secure the
21 release of these people as soon as possible." Signed by Ahmed Adilovic.
22 Witness, please, in connection with this document shown to you by
23 the Prosecutor, I have the following question for you: Would you agree
24 with me that this document does not show in any way that these men were
25 members of the 7th Muslim Brigade? It simply mentions individuals asking
1 for their release; is that right?
2 A. That is what one gathers from this document.
3 Q. Thank you. You can take away the document now. I have something
4 else to ask you now.
5 Testifying yesterday and in answer to questions from the
6 Prosecution, you answered that you remembered certain details regarding
7 the kidnapping of Zivko Totic, and in that connection you mentioned that
8 Dr. Abu Haris, with regard to the kidnapping, contacted Efendija Karalic.
9 Do you remember that? Do you remember saying that yesterday?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. You emphasised that Efendija Karalic spoke Arabic so that you,
12 yourself, did not act as interpreter between Efendija Karalic and Abu
13 Haris; is that right?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. Then one could quite fairly make the conclusion that you don't
16 know what they were talking about.
17 A. One hundred per cent.
18 Q. Also, you said at a certain point in time that the exchange of
19 Zivko Totic was not organised via Efendija Karalic or through his
20 mediation, and then your answer was interrupted by the next question from
21 the Prosecution, and I wish to clear this up a little.
22 Please, you will agree with me when I say that you actually
23 didn't know how Zivko Totic's exchange was organised, or perhaps you do
25 A. Partly. I know partly. I know some things in that connection,
1 not everything.
2 Q. Very well.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like the
4 witness to look at document D764.
5 For the record, until the document reaches the witness, let me
6 say that this is a document of the European Monitoring Mission on the
7 exchange of hostages. Actually, it is Annex B and C to their report.
8 And I would like the witness to look at paragraph 5 of this document.
9 Q. Witness, will you please look at paragraph 5 of this document.
10 Witness --
11 A. I've read it.
12 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that we have here an account saying that
13 Mujahedin messengers have handed over a message to the ECMM regarding the
15 A. I do.
16 Q. Would you now look at paragraph 7 of this document. Do you agree
17 with me that it says that the ECMM centre in Zenica contacted the
18 Mujahedin and offered to mediate?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Will you now look, please, at paragraph 10 of this document, and
21 the first two sentences only of that paragraph.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is page 2 of the English
24 Q. Just the first two sentences, Mr. Awad. Do you agree that this
25 document of the ECMM says that the 3rd Corps denies any connection with
1 the extremists or any kind of involvement in the kidnapping? That is
2 what it says here.
3 A. Yes. That is what it says in this report.
4 Q. Will you now look at the next page in the English version. It is
5 on the same page. Paragraph 12. It is a very important segment,
6 Mr. Awad. It refers to the 7th Muslim Brigade that you testified about
7 yesterday, so will you please read it.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you agree that it says here that the commander of the brigade
10 denied any relationship with the extremists and asked for the whole
11 problem of foreigners to wished to help Bosnia to be discussed?
12 A. That is what it says there.
13 Q. Very well. Now please also look at paragraph 17.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the English version be
15 scrolled down, please. Thank you.
16 Q. And do you agree that it says here that the commander of the
17 3rd Corps claimed that the Mujahedin were not authorised to speak on
18 behalf of the army? That is what it says here.
19 A. Yes, that is what it says.
20 Q. Mr. Awad, I have the following question for you now: You said
21 yesterday that Dr. Abu Haris contacted Efendija Karalic, and you said
22 that he was the emir of the brigade, and then you said that the exchange
23 did not take place, nevertheless, through the mediation of Mr. Karalic.
24 Doesn't this document confirm that, and what do you know about it? Is it
25 true that the exchange was carried out through the mediation of the ECMM?
1 A. That is right. The exchange was carried out through them.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document be
4 given an exhibit number, please.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
6 please be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That is Exhibit 1135, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Testifying about the events of June and July 1993, you said that
11 you briefly stayed at the Mujahedin camp in Mehurici. Do you remember
13 A. I do.
14 Q. You described that the Mujahedin were put up in two private
15 homes; is that right?
16 A. I said that when I arrived at the camp there were two houses and
17 a path leading through a small wood, and then there was another house at
18 the other end. So the camp consisted of these three houses altogether.
19 Q. Thank you. Do you remember whether this perhaps was the camp in
20 Poljanica, a small hamlet close to Mehurici?
21 A. I think it was Poljanica. I have forgotten the names, but for
22 all Arabs this whole area was known as Mehurici or, as the Arabs would
23 put it, Mehrici [phoen].
24 Q. Thank you. Well, a few more minutes on this topic. You said
25 that when you went to Guca Gora you visited this camp, but I have
1 something else to ask you in that connection.
2 In those days when you went to Guca Gora, the Mujahedin camp was
3 not in the school in Mehurici, was it?
4 A. I never mentioned the school, and I never said that the Mujahedin
5 were in the school. I never said anything to that effect in my
7 Q. I know you didn't. Thank you, Mr. Awad. But I just want to make
8 sure that this camp was in this hamlet that you described and not at the
9 school in Mehurici. Am I right?
10 A. Yes, you are. That's right.
11 Q. Thank you. You described your own participation in the events
12 linked to Guca Gora. Can you recall roughly -- not roughly, but as
13 closely as possible when that was? If you can recall.
14 A. I don't know. I can't recollect. It was more likely that it was
15 the second half of June. Closer to July than June itself.
16 Q. Thank you. In your testimony you mentioned Bosnians who took
17 part in that operation together with the foreign Mujahedin. They were
18 actually local Mujahedins who joined this group of Arabs. Isn't that
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. You told us that on that occasion you were responsible for the
22 wounded. Is that right?
23 A. I assisted. I took care of the wounded. I wasn't responsible
24 for the wounded, but I was there to assist and take them over.
25 Q. Very well. During those combat operations you didn't see any
1 wounded members of units of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that
3 A. I didn't see any other wounded. Only the Bosnians who were with
4 the Mujahedin, the Arab Mujahedin, some of them were wounded.
5 Q. Thank you. Yesterday when testifying about this, you also
6 mentioned that certain armed forces, military forces, should have joined
7 this operation but they did not appear, and in that connection I want to
8 make sure I understood you correctly. So in that operation, to the best
9 of your knowledge, there was no participation by members of other units
10 of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Isn't that right?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. So this operation was actually an independent operation by a
13 group of Mujahedin under the command of Wahiuddeen; is that right?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. I would now like to ask you regarding your general knowledge
16 about the Arabs who were present in this area from the time when you
17 arrived and onwards. So please, when you joined the Arab fighters in
18 April 1993, they were not a compact group, were they? I am referring to
19 all the Arabs.
20 A. No, they were not one group. There were different people there.
21 Q. In other words, you're saying that there were several different
22 groups of Arabs; is that right?
23 A. I don't know whether they were organised into groups, but I
24 didn't see them being organised. There were several of them in different
25 places. They were not all in one place.
1 Q. Let me now ask you specifically about the group that you joined.
2 They were not a compact group either that remained there from April 1993
3 until the formation of the detachment. The group did not consist of the
4 same people. In other words, the membership of that group changed. Am I
6 A. Abu Mali, Ejub remained, who were always there, but the others
7 changed. There were always new faces, but number was roughly the same.
8 Seven, eight, or ten men, never more than that.
9 Q. Very well. So some men would join the group while others would
10 leave. So it wasn't a group of the same composition.
11 A. Yes, you could put it that way.
12 Q. Local fighters would join that group, local Muslims.
13 A. Not in this group, in Zenica. There were no local Bosniaks.
14 Q. Very well. Let me ask you the following: It would be wrong to
15 believe that these same people of whom Wahiuddeen was the commander when
16 you joined, that the El Mujahedin was formed of exactly the same people?
17 That would be wrong?
18 A. There was a certain group who were there. Then there was others,
19 Dr. Abu Haris, Abu Mali, Ejub, Husa Mudin [phoen]. These people that I
20 remember, they were always there. There were people that I saw them for
21 a while and then never again.
22 Q. Yes. But many of them left while others came. Am I correct?
23 A. Yes. Joining this group, yes. If you're referring -- or if you
24 mean that people went out and then other people came in, well, that I
25 couldn't say much.
1 Q. What I would like to ask you is this: It would be wrong to
2 believe, wouldn't it, that all Arabs who were active in this area before
3 the formation of this detachment actually joined a detachment?
4 A. No, not all of them. I'm not sure.
5 Q. Thank you. So in this group of Arabs who were active in this
6 area, there was a -- a core group that you described now which were you
7 member of, and if I understood your testimony of yesterday, yes,
8 correctly, you felt that it was important to organise them, and this is
9 why you recommended that a detachment be formed; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In this group you mentioned as one of the group Abu Haris. Am I
12 correct if I say that a many of these people were highly educated?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. Can you name some of them?
15 A. Well, for instance, Abu Haris was a doctor. He graduated
16 medicine in Austria, in Vienna. Muatez was a lawyer and also military
17 personnel. I think he could have been a captain in the Egyptian army
18 earlier. Wahiuddeen graduated from the Islamic theology school, and he
19 had seven kirajats [phoen], and very few people actually knew seven
20 kirajats, which means seven different ways of teaching -- or different
21 teachings of Koran. I think Abu Mali graduated from the school of
23 Q. Thank you. That is enough. I will come back to this proposal
24 for the establishment of a detachment. What I would like to do now is to
25 show you the exhibit that was discussed yesterday.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
2 Exhibit 273.
3 For the record, let me say that this is a document from the
4 Supreme Command Staff of 13 August 1993, and it is an order for the
5 establishment of the El Mujahedin Detachment in the area of the
6 3rd Corps.
7 Q. In your testimony yesterday, you mentioned the order of the
8 supreme -- of the General Staff whereby this detachment was established.
9 I would now like to ask you to please focus on the part which says
10 "Mobilisation preparations." So this is the last part of the first page
11 of this document.
12 A. I've read it.
13 Q. Do you agree with me that it says here that the replenishment of
14 the El Mujahedin Detachment should be carried out by recruiting
15 foreigners, volunteers? Do you agree that this is what it says?
16 A. Yes, I agree.
17 Q. Would you agree that this order was not enforced from the very
18 beginning because local Muslims were also joining this detachment? Is
19 that correct?
20 A. That's about right.
21 Q. Bosnians were continuously recruited into unit from other units,
22 and also civilians. Local civilians were recruited into the unit
23 regardless of this order; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. And irrespective of the position of the army -- of the commands
1 of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina who did not allow this movement
2 from unit to unit. You said yesterday that they were considered to be
3 deserters; is that correct?
4 A. Well, according to this order that would be correct.
5 Q. In reference to this part of the document, I have another
6 question. It is true, isn't it, that volunteers who joined the
7 detachment already owned their own weapons that they acquired in
8 different ways? Is that correct?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. They did not receive these weapons earlier from the Bosnia and
11 Herzegovina army; is that correct?
12 A. That's correct. They purchased the weapons themselves.
13 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to seek a clarification from you.
14 Not all Arabs who were in the area of Central Bosnia joined this
15 detachment; is that correct?
16 A. That's correct. They did not all join the detachment.
17 Q. Those Arabs who did not want to accept the rules of discipline
18 which were enforced within the detachment did not join this detachment?
19 A. That's how it transpired from the beginning to the end. So from
20 the time when the detachment was established through its end.
21 Q. Could you please explain for the Trial Chamber what the rules of
22 discipline were in the detachment.
23 A. I can say this: There was discipline within the detachment. Not
24 everyone was free to go wherever they wanted to go, so there were orders
25 that had to be obeyed. The emir had to be obeyed, so people had to do
1 what the emir wanted them to do. So it was not possible to walk
2 around -- or let me put it this way -- there were -- there was this kind
3 of problem, for instance: Somebody wanted to get married, but then
4 because there had already been problems there with people getting married
5 and then getting divorced, so there was creating dissatisfaction among
6 the population in Bosnia and Herzegovina. There was an order issued at
7 the level of the detachment that no member of the detachment, of the
8 El Mujahedin Detachment, was allowed to marry without the permission of
9 the emir and unless they had already spent at least -- at least six
10 months as members of the detachment. And only once they were issued this
11 permission to marry were they allowed to marry. This was done so the
12 problems that appeared in the field that were assigned -- or attributed
13 to the Mujahedin would be removed. Bosniaks considered every Arab who
14 came to -- everyone who came to Bosnia and Herzegovina who wore a uniform
15 and wore a beard, they considered them Mujahedin, to be Mujahedin. And
16 even some people who worked for humanitarian organisations, the people in
17 Bosnia referred to them as El Mujahedin.
18 Q. Mr. Awad, I would just like to clarify this a bit more. In other
19 words, am I correct, have I understood you correctly, that what you're
20 saying is that the people in Central Bosnia considered every Arab who
21 wore a beard and a uniform a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment? Is
22 that what you were trying to say?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. However, let us elaborate on this a bit longer. Would it be
25 correct to say that at this time and in this area there were several
1 different groups of Asian and African background active in the area, not
2 only the Mujahedin?
3 A. You could say that. There were other Arabs who were not members
4 of the El Mujahedin Detachment.
5 Q. Can you recall who these people would be? Can you recall what
6 the groups were or categories of people?
7 A. I cannot recall this because I didn't have many contacts with
8 these people, so I didn't know many details about them, but there were
9 some people who felt that they should in no way fight side by side with
10 the Bosnian army. They had their own views, and for them this army was
11 not Islamic enough. In other words, they were not allowed by Islam to
12 fight in an army of this type, so they did not want to join the BH army.
13 They even considered us renegades from the -- from the faith because we
14 were part of the BH army.
15 Q. Can we just clarify something here? The people that you
16 mentioned now who were there and who lived and were active in Central
17 Bosnia during this period, the same period, they, too, participated in
18 combat activities in their own way and on their own; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, you could say that. There wasn't enough information, but
20 from what I understood, they, too, fought there, but they were not part
21 of the BH army.
22 Q. And they were not part of the El Mujahedin Detachment either; is
23 that correct?
24 A. That's correct. And that we were considered to be renegades from
25 the faith. In other words, that we were not Muslims.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: And with which army did these people fight? I'm
2 not saying against which army, I'm saying with. If they regarded you as
3 renegades for fighting side by side with the ABiH, which army did they
4 fight side by side with?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know if they coordinated their actions
7 with the ABiH?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have that information. I
9 don't know.
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, I didn't quite
11 understand. You said that you were not viewed well because you were
12 fighting within the army or with the army. In the army or with the army
13 of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that we formed, established
15 a detachment which was part of the BH army.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm a little confused. In war, or in the war that
17 was taking place in Central Bosnia at the time, there were two parties to
18 the war. It was the Muslim -- the ABiH against the -- the Serbian armies
19 isn't it so? Right. Now, these --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- these Arabs who regarded you as the renegades
22 for supporting the ABiH, do you know whether they were fighting on the
23 side of the Serbs against the ABiH?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Heaven forbid. They wouldn't do
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: But now my problem is if they didn't do that and
2 they were not fighting on the side of the ABiH, on whose side were they
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will explain that in a minute so
5 that you can understand me, but please listen carefully.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please. That's -- that was my original question.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned to you that when I came
8 to Bosnia and Herzegovina I came because I was a believer and I wanted to
9 help Muslims. And there were other Muslims who came to Bosnia and
10 Herzegovina for the same reasons, because they were Muslims and because
11 they wanted to help the people, the Bosnian people. However, not all
12 these people who came from elsewhere, Muslims -- they did not have the
13 same understanding of Islam. Some of them considered that because the
14 state, the Bosnian and Herzegovinian state, said that they would be a
15 secular state, they considered this state to be a state that they should
16 not assist in any manner. And because the army of this state, the state
17 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that would be that that army, too, was
18 secular, so -- because if there were no Islamic elements within that
19 army, they should not join and fight with that army. So what they did is
20 they would go to a certain area, spend their seven days. Because as I
21 said a little earlier, the people in the field, they saw all these people
22 as El Mujahedin. So they would call them El Mujahedin even if they were
23 not members of the detachment. So the Bosnian people, in other words,
24 they saw every Arab -- and even I when I came there originally, when I
25 was a member of a humanitarian organisation, I was considered a
1 Mujahedin. In other words, the -- the people would consider -- as soon
2 as they saw an Arab, they would consider them Mujahedin. They were
3 brave, courageous, and so on. So this is something that I myself had
4 occasion to experience. I would, say, walk into an establishment, and
5 then people would say, "Please come in," welcome me there.
6 So there were people who would just go to the front line without
7 asking anyone. The army would accept them there, the -- the troops in
8 the field. They would stay there for a couple of days, seven days, fight
9 with them.
10 So I wouldn't really say whether they fought with the army. This
11 was really their own decision. I don't know if you understand what I'm
12 trying to tell you. This is all I can say. I was trying to explain it
13 so that you get a better feel for it.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, you're confusing me even more. My
15 problem is here are two groups of Islam. The one group has decided that
16 they are going to help the ABiH in its war. Okay? The other group says,
17 "We don't want to help you because you're a secular state, and we regard
18 these Arabs who are with you as renegades."
19 Now, when they go to the battlefield for seven days, on whose
20 side are they fighting if they don't want to support this secular army
21 and they can't find -- they don't want to fight on the side of the Serbs?
22 Who are they -- on whose were they fighting?
23 That -- I just want that answer. Don't tell me about -- that
24 long explanation didn't answer my question. Just tell me, "They were
25 fighting on so-and-so's side," or, "I don't know."
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said earlier that they wanted to
2 help the Bosniak Muslims. They did not want to be part of the official
3 authorities or the official army that they considered to be secular.
4 They wanted to give their participation in any other way. Did you
5 understand me now?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, thank you. Okay.
7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have another question. Did
8 they receive orders from any foreign organisation?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I didn't understand.
10 Can you please repeat the question?
11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] These people who were not
12 fighting, the Mujahedin who were not fighting within the army and within
13 the detachment, were they fighting, receiving orders from abroad, from
14 any foreign organisation?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't say that, no, because
16 they came -- let me explain. The Mujahedin who came to Bosnia and
17 Herzegovina didn't come in an organised manner. They were not sent by
18 any side. No one sent them as a state or an organisation: "You go to
19 Bosnia and fight there."
20 People felt that something awoke in them when they saw what was
21 happening in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they felt obliged to help. You
22 understand that's why they came without any organisation. And I don't
23 believe that anyone from the outside could order those people. Maybe
24 they had financial links with someone, but as for orders and fighting, I
25 would not say that, definitely.
1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Awad, I'm going to now put something to you as a follow-up to
5 a question by Her Honour Judge Lattanzi. Would you agree with the
6 following: You actually personally did not know all the people or groups
7 of people who came to Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. You didn't have the opportunity to speak with those people
10 either; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Then you really cannot know why any of those groups or any of
13 those people had actually come to Bosnia and Herzegovina. Would you
14 accept that? You cannot know that?
15 A. I was speaking generally. People had come with that general
16 intention of fighting, of helping. I cannot say that applied to all of
17 them. Maybe some did not come with that intention.
18 Q. Yes. That is precisely the point. Would you agree with me that
19 you can speak here about what you know or what you heard from other
20 people? That is something that you do know. Isn't that correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, let me ask you this: Before forming the
23 El Mujahedin Detachment, there was a differentiation in the group of
24 Arabs at Mehurici, and some of them had already split off from this main
25 group where you were and Dr. Abu Haris and Abu Mali, in May 1993, or at
1 that time approximately. Am I correct?
2 A. Some people had left. Let's go back a little bit. Earlier you
3 showed a document where there were the names of three people who had been
4 captured by the Croats. Before me, they tried to leave Bosnia and
5 Herzegovina because they did not like -- they didn't like the
6 organisation and the fighting and all of the things that were happening
7 in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Perhaps they regretted being there, and they
8 tried to return and were captured on their way out. So you can say that
9 there was a splitting off, and some people left that group that was in
11 Q. Would you agree that some of them stayed in Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina and were active in fighting unconnected to this group of
13 Arabs connected to Dr. Abu Haris? Am I correct?
14 A. Yes, that is correct.
15 Q. Please, different individuals and groups, for example Abu Dzafer,
16 Ali Ahmed Al Hamad [phoen] had their own groups, but they never became
17 members of the detachment; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. The detachment itself was left by some problematic people who had
20 remained in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina and continued to
21 fight on their own in their own way. Am I correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Not only your group under Dr. Abu Haris considered themselves as
24 Mujahedin. Others also -- other Arabs considered themselves as
25 Mujahedin, ones that had come to Bosnia and fought without being
1 connected to the detachment; is that correct?
2 A. Yes. No could take away from them their right to call themselves
4 Q. Would you agree with me that many incidents committed by those
5 people were ascribed to the El Mujahedin Detachment or to the group
6 around Abu Hasan [as interpreted].
7 THE INTERPRETER: "Abu Haris," interpreter's correction. Could
8 the witness please repeat his answer.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Awad, the interpreters would like you to
10 please repeat your answer. They didn't hear you very well, so start last
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said yes, that is correct. The
13 problems that they created is something that still gives me a headache up
14 to this day. It's something that is ascribed to me. Whenever I speak
15 with someone, journalists or someone, they say, "Your people did this,
16 this, and this." No. My people did not do that. Do you understand me?
17 And that is why I still have headaches because of those problems.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. In other words, Mr. Awad, many incidents committed by Arabs who
21 were not in the detachment were ascribed to the El Mujahedin Detachment.
22 Did I understand you correctly?
23 A. Yes, that is correct. I can even tell you about an instance, and
24 it's something that makes a person have a hard time about it. On one
25 occasion somebody stole a vehicle, a jeep. I think this happened in
1 1995. Somebody stole some jeep. Some Arab person did this, and the
2 3rd Corps military security sent a man to the El Mujahedin command, and
3 we were charged with the theft of this jeep.
4 I took this person to our garage. I showed him how many jeeps we
5 had that we had purchased with our own money. I even reminded him that
6 we as a detachment, as a group of people, gave to the 3rd Corps such an
7 all-terrain vehicle as a present. We did not need to steal.
8 Everything that happened was ascribed to the El Mujahedin
9 Detachment, and then they would come to our doors to ask, "What did your
10 members do?"
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: We will certainly get back to these incidents
12 that were committed by foreigners who were not members of the EMD, but
13 you have mentioned one example now, a theft of a car, but what other
14 incidents are we talking about? What was the nature of the actions
15 committed by these other groups that were so terrible that you didn't
16 want to have anything to do with them?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will give you an example.
18 Ninety-third is constantly being preferred to, the slapping of girls in
19 Zenica who were walking around in miniskirts, or bathed by the river, or
20 when they were caught like a couple when was -- when a couple was caught
21 that was going around holding hands or kissing on the streets, that they
22 were getting slapped, and it was automatically said that this was done by
23 members of the El Mujahedin Detachment. I say that this was not done by
24 members of El Mujahedin Detachment, definitely, but this was done by
25 people who wanted to tarnish the reputation of the El Mujahedin
1 Detachment, and that's why I say I had headaches all the time from this.
2 And when people talk about these problems, they speak about them with
3 conviction. They don't ask if this happened, but they say that members
4 of the El Mujahedin Detachment did this, this, and this without checking
5 the information. We're charged right at the beginning. If they said,
6 "Some Arab did this," I would accept that, because when an incident or a
7 problem occurs, each perpetrator of that incident has a name, a first and
8 a last name, is not carrying the name or bearing the name of the
9 El Mujahedin Detachment.
10 Do you understand what I'm trying to say now?
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to look at
13 Exhibit 841.
14 Q. It's a document of the 3rd Corps Military Security Service, dated
15 the 5th of November, 1995. It's headed "Information," and it's sent to
16 the 7th Corps Military Security Service. It's a small document, a short
17 document. I believe that you will read it quickly. The document refers
18 to the incident in which members of the El Mujahedin Unit allegedly took
19 place -- took part, led by Abu Hamza, and then it continues to say that
20 the command of the El Mujahedin Detachment informed that Abu Hamza is not
21 a member of their unit. And I would like to ask you the following,
22 please, Mr. Awad: You know who Abu Hamza is, who had a group at Guca
23 Gora; is that correct? Is that correct? Do you know that?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Was that man a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment?
1 A. He was not a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment. He was
2 thrown out of the El Mujahedin Detachment. For a while, by mistake, he
3 was still kept on the list, I think, but he was thrown out of the
4 El Mujahedin Detachment and erased from the register. He did not obey
5 anyone. He was off by himself. He had a couple of supports with him.
6 That man that -- even after the war created problems, and he's now in
8 Q. Please, Mr. Awad, I want to ask you this: During 1993, he had a
9 group. Before the detachment was formed, he had a group at Guca Gora
10 which was is not under the command of Dr. Abu Haris; is that correct?
11 A. Yes. He had a certain number of people who did not wish to be
12 under the command of Dr. Abu Haris.
13 Q. Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you remember when he was thrown out of the
15 El Mujahedin Detachment?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact date. I was
17 not in the personnel department, so I don't know that, but I know that it
18 was said that he had been thrown out of the detachment, that he was not a
19 member of the detachment. I know that that's what was said, that he was
20 thrown out. I don't have the exact record of the date.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: How about the year?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really cannot remember. I don't
23 even want to say anything.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine. Thanks very much.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Let's clarify this: When we're talking about Abu Hamza and his
2 actions at Guca Gora, I want it to be clear that I was talking about the
3 period before the establishment of the El Mujahedin Detachment when I
4 asked you about him being -- not being under the command of Dr. Abu
5 Haris. Is that how you understood my question?
6 A. I did not see him before. I did not meet him earlier, so I
7 cannot say since I did not see him. I know that he was at Guca Gora,
8 that he was there, so it's probably like that in that period.
9 Q. Like this: Do you agree would me that you --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was just going to say that the exhibit that you
11 have just shown to the witness is dated the 5th of November, 1995, and it
12 is replying to a document that was sent on the previous day.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have finished with
14 this document. It is already an exhibit, and these questions are no
15 longer related to this document.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: No. All I'm saying is the complaint about Abu
17 Hamza is around November 1995, not 1993.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour, quite
19 correct. That is one group of questions. But my last question that I
20 now wish to complete and to clear up with the witness is as follows:
21 Q. Witness, this was a document there 1995. You realise that, don't
22 you? But something else that I asked you is -- I went back to the period
23 prior to the establishment of the detachment in 1993 and to the area of
24 Guca Gora, and with respect to Abu Hamza, my question was, was he under
25 the command of Abu Haris, and your answer was that you didn't see him.
1 Do you agree with me that Abu Haris's group, before the
2 establishment of the detachment, was a small group of people?
3 A. Yes. It was located in Poljance, I think. Yes.
4 Q. On condition that he was in that group of people at that time,
5 would you have known him? Would you have come across him because you
6 were a member of that group?
7 A. Yes, I certainly should have seen him.
8 Q. Thank you, Witness.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I now wish the witness to be shown
10 an excerpt from Exhibit 92, the page with the number 04717277.
11 Q. I see you smiling. You obviously know that person; is that
13 A. Yes, it is. This is --
14 Q. Will you tell me, please, the name of this person?
15 A. His name is Imad Al-Hussein, or so-called Abu Hamza, but not that
16 Abu Hamza.
17 Q. So Imad Al-Hussein, Abu Hamza, is not the person from Guca Gora
18 that we have been talking about, and he is not the person that caused
19 incident; is that right?
20 A. Yes. This is a great friend of mine.
21 Q. Would you agree with me that the nickname Abu Hamza is quite a
22 frequent nickname?
23 A. Yes. People like to give the name Hamza. I'll explain how. The
24 name Hamza is the name of a messenger who was killed, and he's considered
25 a champion martyr, shaheed.
1 Q. I apologise for having to interrupt you sometimes, because I have
2 so many questions for you.
3 I now wish to ask you about another person. Have you heard of a
4 person called Abu Zubeir?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Would you agree with me that in Central Bosnia, in the period
7 from the spring of 1993 until the end of the war, there were several
8 persons in that area with the same nickname, Abu Zubeir?
9 A. Yes. They were from Tunisia, from Saudi Arabia, from Yemen, from
10 various countries, if I remember well.
11 Q. The person Abu Zubeir Al Hayili from Saudi Arabia was a person
12 who in several places in Bosnia and Herzegovina had his groups from the
13 spring of 1993 until the end of the war. Am I right?
14 A. Yes, you are.
15 Q. Do you remember the locations?
16 A. As far as I know, in the area of Tesanj, Zesjelno Polje [phoen],
17 even at a later stage at Gluha Bukovica. Yes, Gluha Bukovica. I even
18 think in Kalesija, in Tuzla, he had a group. That's the ones I can
20 Q. Could you please describe the physical appearance of that person
21 if you know him?
22 A. He's heavily built and a large man, a big man, a tall man. I am
23 not familiar with the details. I did see him, but I didn't have any
24 contact with him, so I don't know any more details about it.
25 Q. Would you agree that he was above average -- of above-average
1 build and weight?
2 A. Yes. He was really a heavy man.
3 Q. These groups of Abu Zubeir's, they had nothing to do with the
4 El Mujahedin Detachment, did they?
5 A. No, they didn't.
6 Q. They did not accept the El Mujahedin Detachment?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. They never became a part of the army, to the best of your
10 A. To the best of my knowledge they didn't form separate units and
11 became a part of the army. That's as much as I don't know -- as I know.
12 I don't know whether they belonged to some unit or not.
13 Q. Very well. Why did Abu Zubeir not accept the El Mujahedin?
14 A. Abu Zubeir was in Tesanj, and when the road was liberated, they
15 were able to come to Zenica from Tesanj. I remember that Abu Mali
16 offered him the possibility of the Mujahedins to join forces and for him
17 to become a part of the detachment and for us to work together. We would
18 be bigger, better, and so on. However, he insisted on having a role in
19 the leadership, for him to be the leader in the detachment. However, the
20 detachment commander would not accept -- accept that, so that nothing
21 came of it and they broke up.
22 Q. Thank you. Answering questions from the Prosecution, you spoke
23 of combat activities in Vozuca in September 1995. It's right, isn't it,
24 that Abu Zubeir, with his groups, did take part in combat operations at
25 Vozuca in 1995?
1 A. I heard that they were present at Vozuca. I personally didn't
2 see them. I didn't have occasion to see them. I said I was at the
3 forward command post, so I didn't have any -- many contacts on the
5 Q. But you heard that they did take part in these combat activities
6 in the area of Vozuca?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. To the best of your knowledge did -- they did not participate
9 together with the El Mujahedin Detachment?
10 A. If they had, I would have known. They certainly didn't
11 participate with the El Mujahedin Detachment.
12 Q. Did you hear of a Mujahedin camp in the village of Borovnica?
13 A. The detachment didn't have a camp in Borovnica. The El Mujahedin
14 Detachment did not have a camp in the village of Borovnica.
15 Q. Did you perhaps hear who did have a camp in the Borovnica
17 A. I don't know exactly. I know there were some Mujahedin there. I
18 think it was Abu Zubeir's group. I think so, but I can't say with
20 Q. Thank you. I would now like to ask you something else. You told
21 us yesterday that after the events in Guca Gora that you were involved in
22 that you had agreed to draft a proposal to the 3rd Corps of the BH army
23 to join the army. In fact, you said that you yourself had written that
24 document in which you described the composition of the detachment. Am I
1 A. Yes. I -- I translated that request into Bosnian, and I
2 personally delivered it at the protocol of the 3rd Corps headquarters.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now look at
4 Exhibit 67, please. Could the witness look at the second page straight
5 away, please, of the Bosnian version, and the English version, for us to
6 gain time.
7 For the record, that is document entitled "Overview of the
8 El Mujahedin Detachment and a list of members of the unit."
9 Q. Witness, would you please have a look at the first page.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And I want to ask you the following: Is this the document that
12 you testified about yesterday, that you had written it? That is the
14 A. No, that is not that document. The document was not typed. I
15 wrote it in longhand. We didn't have a typewriter, so I wrote everything
16 by hand. It was handwritten. On the right hand was the Arabic text, and
17 on the left was the Bosnian text. And I handed in at the protocol.
18 Q. So that is not this document. So it would be wrong to believe
19 that this is -- this document is the proposal filed by the El Mujahedin
20 Detachment of the 3rd Corps; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Nevertheless, I wish to ask you something in connection with this
23 document. Under number 11 your name is mentioned: "Abu Ajman, assistant
24 commander for security." And you told us that that should be you. Isn't
25 that right? "Abu Ajman."
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But you told us yesterday that you never performed those duties;
3 is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you agree then that this document does not reflect the real
6 state of affairs and relationships within the detachment on the basis of
7 what was said about you?
8 A. Yes. I even see some names, some companies. That certainly
9 wasn't like that.
10 Q. Thank you. Will you now look at the note written by hand. Will
11 you please look at it. The --
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the English version be
13 scrolled down for Their Honours to be see -- able to see it on the
15 Q. And, Witness, would you look at it. And one would say it says:
16 "Request all data, including passport numbers and the country of issuance
17 of the passport." Do you see that written there?
18 A. I can't read it, but that would be it more or less.
19 Q. Yes. That's better now. Can you read it now? Can you see it
20 better now?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Witness, I wish to refer to this handwritten note and
23 to ask you would you agree that the command of the detachment never
24 provided copies of passports and the other data regarding the countries
25 of origin of the foreigners to the corps command?
1 A. As far as I know, no copies were ever provided, copies of
2 passports or other documents, of foreign volunteers or Mujahedin. What
3 was provided was the real names and data of those members who wished to
4 have this provided, when the individual insisted on this. However,
5 passport copies were never provided to the command of the 3rd Corps of
6 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, never.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I -- you told us that the name Hamza means a
9 messenger who was a martyr, is that it? What does the name Abu mean? I
10 see on this, Exhibit 67, everybody there is called Abu, including
11 yourself. What does Abu mean?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me explain. I said Hamza is a
13 name of the uncle of the messenger who was killed in the second battle in
14 the history of Islam, and -- and the prophet Muhammad said of him that he
15 was the champion of the shaheeds, people who were killed fighting for
16 Islam and who went to paradise.
17 The word "Abu" means "father." "Abu Hamza" means "Hamza's
19 Among us Arabs, it is customary to give people names on the basis
20 of their sons or their fathers. For instance, I personally am Abu Abdul
21 Rahman, because my late father's name was Abdul Rahman, and I was given
22 the name on the basis of the name of my father. Or a person without such
23 a nickname may be named after his first child. Very often Muslims wish
24 to have the -- the -- to be honoured by being named after the first
25 shaheed, or martyr, and that is why he's called Abu Hamza.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honour, I hope
2 I'll manage to show the witness one more document.
3 Could the witness be shown D765.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: While we wait for this document to come on the
5 screen, can I just confirm with you that the purpose of -- of this last
6 document we saw was to show that the 3rd Corps was never given any
7 information of the identity of any of the members of the END? Is that
8 correct? Can you confirm this, Mr. Awad?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said that we didn't provide
10 copies of our passports as a copy of -- of a document was never provided,
11 but if somebody wanted to have his real first and second name to be on
12 the list, it would be put on the name [as interpreted]. You may have
13 read here Abu Ajman, for instance, or Abu, just Abu.
14 In 1995, for me to acquire citizenship, I had to have a document
15 with my real name indicated. I had to provide my original data that
16 corresponded to do passport, though I didn't provide the passport, to be
17 able to realise any rights. So some individuals did provide their data.
18 From the first day I said I was Ajman Awad. I never said I was -- I had
19 any other names.
20 But somebody ask why Abu. Everyone was Abu, so they called me
21 Abu Ajman. They always called me Abu Ajman.
22 So you see, what was provided to the corps were the names Abu,
23 Abu, Abu, except for those who explicitly wanted their real names to be
24 provided. They provided data without providing passport copies. So they
25 were responsible for the data they provided.
1 Have I made myself clear?
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes and no. If you look at the following pages
3 of the document that we have just put back, there are a lot of names that
4 appear to be the real names, so to say, of -- of the members. I don't
5 see any Abu anywhere. Oh, yes, do, later on.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge, you're right,
7 but these are Bosniaks.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, I see. But does this then mean that as of
9 person number 111, in fact all the way to almost 186, all those names
10 were not revealing the true identity of the persons? Is that how we
11 should understand this?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These persons were identified as
13 such. Each one of them had a nickname. For instance, I don't know the
14 real names of members of the detachment. I knew a couple of people. If
15 we go back to this list, I see Abu Hubada [phoen], Abu Abaz or something.
16 The real name is not here, only the nickname that each of them had.
17 This considered the nickname to be their real identity for some,
18 but as I was called Abu Abdul Rahman, it is my identity, but my real name
19 is Ajman Awad. But if you say Abdul Rahman Awad, then it is me that is
20 implied. I am implied.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can the Court conclude that the names indicated
22 here in the last part of the list were sufficient to identify these
23 individuals by their nickname and by their date of birth so that there
24 would be no uncertainty as to who they were?
25 You see, the reason we're asking this question is, of course,
1 that if the El Mujahedin Detachment became part of the ABiH, then the
2 ABiH would have a natural interest in knowing precisely who was part of
3 their army. So that's why I'm interested in knowing whether the
4 information offered in this list would provide sufficient information
5 about the identity of these people. That's one possibility. The other
6 possibility is that it would not, because this would only be nicknames
7 while the true identity of the persons were still concealed. So I'm
8 testing you on -- on the quality of information provided on the list.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will explain why this is so.
10 There are certain objective considerations.
11 People who came from abroad to assist and to join in the fighting
12 here in Bosnia and Herzegovina, they feared that if they gave their real
13 identity, because there were many intelligence services -- I've seen
14 documents when talking to the Prosecutor how the intelligence listened in
15 to our conversations. If the Bosnian intelligence service were
16 listening -- tapping us, what were the foreign intelligences doing? So
17 many feared that their -- if their names were to be heard in their own
18 countries, then their parents would have problems on the part of our own
19 authorities over there, and that is why they did not wish to reveal their
20 real names. They wanted only to use their nicknames.
21 Among members within the detachment it was safe. There were no
23 However, I can understand your question. The authorities wished
24 to have the real identity, the name, the number of the passport and
25 everything, but this could not be done because of these fears. Those who
1 had no fears did provide their data.
2 I personally have problems on this account. Until I received BH
3 citizenship, I didn't have any problems in Syria. I came here as a
4 student, and there are no proceedings against me in Syria. However, when
5 it was heard that I had acquired citizenship because of my participation
6 here, I had problems. And my father was called in for interviews on
7 several occasions, and my brothers, too, were called in by the security
8 services for interviews because I was in Bosnia-Herzegovina and because I
9 was a member of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
10 I think -- I hope I have explained now why this is so.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: You have. Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Could we know the date of this
13 document, because I have a question here for the members who were
14 Bosniaks. Here we have an indication of the date. I suppose the date
15 when they joined the army, whereas for the foreign members there are no
16 such indications. Therefore, could one establish the date of this
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know.
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] In view of the fact that it is
20 Madam Vidovic who asked for this document to be used, could she tell us
21 the date, please?
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is an exhibit
23 which was tendered by the Prosecutor. It had number 67. There is no
24 date except for number 3 that you can see on this page. You can look at
25 page number 3. You can see 001/93. And on the basis of that and the
1 date later, you can conclude that this is a document from 1993. However,
2 there is no date on it. At least from what I managed to [overlapping
4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And the dates next to the names
5 of the Bosniak members, they go as far as the month of July 1993. That
6 would mean that this document dates from a period after July 1993.
7 MR. MUNDIS: If I could be of some assistance. The Prosecution,
8 after we discovered this document, undertook the same kind of quick
9 analysis that Your Honour's doing.
10 I believe, if memory serves me correctly, the person listed as
11 number 26, who has an entry date of 27 August 1993, that's the latest
12 date. So it's actually -- 27 August 1993 is the -- is the latest date,
13 and that's next to person number 26, and so certainly that would give us
14 some indication, but we don't have any precise information as to the date
15 of the document itself.
16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I know you had wished to put in one document
18 before we adjourn, and I know we've gone far beyond the time. Would you
19 like to put that document? Please do.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no. I'm going to
21 tender this document tomorrow, but I would like to put two very brief
22 questions to the witness and to finish with this topic. They're very
23 short questions, if you permit.
24 Q. Please, Witness, now we were just discussing the identity of
25 these people on the list. Would you agree, in any case, that these are
1 not the true identities of the people, the ones that are recorded on this
2 list? Is that correct?
3 A. Well, I gave an explanation just now as for these names. Within
4 the group, within the detachment, they could recognise each other by our
5 names, these nicknames.
6 As for the corps personnel service and other people who look on,
7 I don't think this is their identity.
8 Q. One more short question. It's true, isn't it, that you
9 detachment members did not know the true identities of all the other
10 members of the detachment? And here I'm thinking of the foreigners, not
11 of the Bosnians.
12 A. Only the people who were heading the personnel service, who had
13 the documents. When a foreigner would come, he would place his passport,
14 his possessions, items, some money or something. He would give it over
15 for safekeeping, and when he was leaving, he would be given that back.
16 So the only people who knew this were people from the personnel service.
17 I don't know the real names of those people. Sometimes when I
18 hear a name, I really don't know who that is.
19 Q. Thank you very much. And the personnel service that kept the
20 documents that were kept in the possession of the El Mujahedin
21 Detachment, that particular archive was never handed over to the Bosnia
22 and Herzegovina authorities?
23 A. Yes, that is correct. This is how I explained that just now.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I would
25 now break off here with my cross-examination for today.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Much to the relief of Mr. Awad.
2 We'll take an adjournment --
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- until tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning. 9.00
5 tomorrow morning.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.12 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Sunday, the 10th day
8 of February, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.